Happy Sad Confused - STRANGER THINGS: THE FIRST SHADOW

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

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Fear. I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot? What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on, none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. When you were hatching Stranger Things, in your wildest dreams you ever think, we're taking this to Broadway.

We're taking this to stage one day. Yes, this is always the plan. Right? I'm glad it all turned out. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. This one is for the Stranger Things fans out there, and I know you're out there. This conversation is with the creative team behind. Stranger Things, the first shadow, the ginormous Broadway play that

has just debuted here in New York City, the Duffer Brothers, the playwright, the director, the producer, a lot of stranger things conversation coming at you in just a second. Before we get to that, as always, lots of things going on and happy, say, confused universe. As always, check it out on our Patreon. That's where we put up all the announcements immediately. We give you bonus materials. Patreon.com slash happy, say I confused. Merch, discount codes, live events. What more can you ask for? Check it out. Help us over there because it supports everything we do over here. Speaking of live events, Plots coming up, May 14th, Tony Gilroy, the mastermind behind Star Wars' fantastic series on Disney Plus, Andor, and a great filmmaker in his own right. Michael Clayton is an all-time classic. May 14th in New York City at 92nd Street Y. I'm going to be catching up with Tony. That is, by the way, the day after the finale of Andor. So I think we're going to be able to get really deep into spoilers. So that should be cool. May 12th, and I think this is official by now, if not, ignore me. Alexander Scarsgaard, also at 9th 2nd Streetwide.

I'm going to catch up with him about his new series Murder Bot, but also his extensive career. And at this moment, if you're watching this on Monday or Tuesday, there's still time, I think, to come on out on April 29th to see me and Jeremy Renner. Jeremy Renner has a memoir out that's really focused on that insane accidents, that one in a million accidents he had a couple years back, nearly killed him and his long road of recovery back. It's a great book. I've read it. And it's always fun to catch up with Jeremy. So get your tickets now.

That's actually the Gramercy Theater. That's not a live podcast taping. That's just like a cool deep dive into this book. And I believe his only New York City live event. So really honored that Jeremy asked for me to moderate that conversation. Okay. So back to the main event. Stranger Things the First Shadow.

For those that don't know, this show. This show debuted about a year and a half back, I believe, in the West End of London. Huge success. Won all the awards, sold all the tickets, it's still running, and now has just debuted on Broadway. It doesn't get any bigger than this. It's the biggest production, I think, I've ever seen. The Harry Potter one is pretty big, too. It's on that scale.

This conversation is with some really cool folks, Matt and Ross Duffer for one or two, I guess. They, of course, the creators of Stranger Things, they don't do a lot of this kind of thing. So I'm honored that I got a chance to catch up with him. They're always fantastic. Kate Tree Fry, who is a very key writer on the Stranger Things TV show and wrote this new Broadway production, this new production that's running in both London and New York right now, as well as Justin Martin, who is a fantastic director of many great stage work, and Sonia Friedman, who is a Broadway legend. and London Legends. She's produced so many great plays and shows over the years. So this was

recorded at the Paris Theater in New York City. This was recorded after a screening of the documentary that is currently on Netflix, that I highly recommend that is about the behind the scenes of the making of the London production. You get all that? Okay. So in no particular order, I saw the doc before I saw the play. It works either way. But I would recommend this. Like the dock on Netflix right now is a great, really candid, look at the process of putting together a gigantic show. I really enjoyed it. And then the show itself, as you'll hear in this, is fascinating. It is a prequel. It takes place in 1959. And yes, there are some very familiar characters in there, including Bob and Joyce and Hopper. And right at the center of it, it is about Henry Creel,

Beckna. And it's his backstory, essentially, his origin story. So, I thought it was fantastic. I couldn't recommend it highly enough. Get your tickets now. If you want to, you know, probably tickets are expensive, but you're going to get bang for your buck on this one. It truly is not hyperbole. It does not get any bigger in terms of production. You're like at a theme park ride as much as a Broadway show.

And I think you're going to be very, very entertained. Okay. So please enjoy this chat. Again, it's a live conversation in front of a, audience at the Paris Theater. And, yeah, there are some hints, I think, of what's to come on Stranger Things? You know, the duffers are tight-lipped, but let's listen closely, everybody, to see if we can figure out some stuff going forward.

Enjoy my chat with the creative team behind Stranger Things, the First Shadow. Hi, guys. Welcome. My name is Josh Horowitz. I usually host a podcast called Happy Second Views, but tonight it is my distinct honor to talk to the creative team behind Strangler. Stranger Things, the first shadow. You guys have had just a small taste of this remarkable production that is, by the way, opening on Broadway in 24 hours, less than 24 hours, I know.

I feel somewhat guilty that we are tearing them away from the theater at this 11th hour, but it's all for a good cause. We're going to spread the good word for this production. I've seen the show. I'm sure some of you maybe have seen it in London. in previews. It is as ambitious a production, as powerful production on stage as I've seen in quite some time. There's a lot to talk about. There's some amazing talents waiting to come on stage. So let's bring them out, shall we? You ready for this? Please give a warm welcome

to producer Sonia Friedman, everybody. Here she is. Please give a warm welcome to the creators of Stranger Things, the series and executive producers on the play, Matt Duffer and Ross Duffer. Matt Ross. Please give a warm welcome to playwright Kate Tree Frye, everybody. And please give a huge welcome to director Justin Martin. Justin, join us please. Hacked House. Here we go, guys. How are you feeling? I was saying before, we are, we're a day away.

Is the show locked? Are we done? I mean, shouldn't you be working? What's going on, Sonia? Who you're asking? Let's start with you. It's locked. Now ask Justin. Justin. What does locked mean? Kate, is it locked? No.

and that's how it's been yeah well they got a sense of that watching this documentary didn't they but what does actually happen like this next 24 hours well I've got a lot of work to do it's all about preparing for tomorrow evening

building up and keeping the cast calm focused it's another night for them but it's also a celebration on Broadway which is very different to London Obviously, you've just seen us opening in London. In London, the critics all came in pretty much on the same day

or day or two before we opened. Whereas here, when you open on the show on Broadway, most of you know that it's a celebration for us because the critics have all been through. So tomorrow night it's a celebration with family and friends. So before we get to the history of this production, since the folks did just see this documentary, which I was saying to you before,

is a remarkably candid and open look at the process. I'm a sucker for a great behind-the-scenes film or play doc. And this one really, you guys spoke very openly, I feel like. Did you forget the cameras were there at a certain point, Justin, or Kate? We had a lovely cameraman, G, who was with us all the time and became part of the family. But it was quite alarming because you did forget often and he had little spy cams everywhere

that he'd suddenly remember halfway through listening in. But it felt like they were a part of the conversation, so it didn't, you became unaware of them. They were around so much. Kate, is there anything? Have you seen the dark, by the way? Have you seen the... I did. I have seen the dock.

I watched it last night with my family. But yes, G was everywhere all the time. And then at the worst possible moment, you would realize he's there and he's filming you. And you have to sneak up and go, gee, you have to, you got to erase all of that. can't, no one can see any of that. There is a compilation of us telling Chi to bugger off. Some of it's in there, but most of it's not. So whose crazy idea was it to open the production in this open and honest way to a documentary crew?

And were you all in from the start? Not me. Netflix? Yeah. I mean, if you've got to produce a show with Netflix, that's part of what comes with. it and it was exciting and I actually from my perspective I loved the idea of theatre being unpacked and celebrated on a platform as global as Netflix having theatre there is extraordinary for someone like me all right let's talk a

little bit about how this ginormous crazy production even came about Matt and Ross when you were hatching Stranger Things did in your wildest dreams you ever think we're taking this to Broadway we're taking this to the stage one day yes this is always the plan right I'm glad it all came turned out no no it's not the last thing on our minds

really we were just we were shocked Netflix wanted to make a show with us in the first place so but then Stephen we heard about Stephen being interested in doing a play very early on was it after season two we first heard about it from executives at Netflix

and then he ended up getting busy and nothing ever came up at. Well, I think Netflix actually actively discouraged it because they need, they want to like, Stephen, please focus on the crown. Like, I remember that. I was like, but it'd be cool if he could also, you know, focus on this. But anyway, these guys have a TV series to make. He's got a TV series to make. Yeah, it was like, you know, so we thought it was going to go away for a long time.

And then it ended up, you know, everybody was patient. And then the timing ended up being just right for. Just right for the, I think for the narrative, too, for the story because we had at that point, we were much further along and sort of opening up the mythology of the show. We were working on breaking season four when we started talking to Stephen

and initially working with Jack Thorne. And because we were breaking the story of Henry Creel and we realized that we had a lot more story to tell that we didn't, even though that season is long, we didn't even have, we didn't have room to put in all that we wanted to about Henry. And so we thought this was the perfect avenue. And once we started talking,

about Henry and initially being at Hawkins, we realized Joyce would be there and Hopper would be there. And then that's when we really got excited and said this could be something special in Stephen's hands, yeah. So how much of obviously, yeah, we see Bob, we see Joyce, we see Hopper, how much of their back story was already kind of on your mind in any kind of official or unofficial show Bible of where they were in 1959 and how much had to be kind of created from scratch? I mean, a lot was created for, I mean, Kate can answer this too. I think that, I mean, in the show, I mean, Joyce and Hopper talk about sharing cigarettes under the stairwell, but, like, that's it. We're sort of hinting at these back stories. We wanted to do, like, flashbacks or some storyline or an episode, and we just, you know, it's one of those things that just never came to fruition, but we always thought it would be cool.

So then, Kate, I don't know, how many ideas did we have before you went into this? Not very many. Right. Yeah, that's what I thought. So what made you, okay, you look at the writer's room, and you see. say that lady's the one for this job. Kate, Tree Fry, we're going to talk to her.

Oh, 100%. No, I mean, like, so Kate came in, I think some of this is in the documentary. But yeah, yeah, she, you know, she came in season two, and she's been our little we call her the secret weapon in the room, and she

just can write the show like nobody else. She can write the characters and the dialogue. She's very good at that. That's the thing that is, I think, the hardest for people to do to come in and sort of inhabit these characters. So, and it felt very natural that she would be the one to do it. And so, anyway, that's, that's how we ended up landing on Kate. It came about pretty organically.

And I think Stephen and Sonia were very, I think it was amazing how open you guys were to be. Kate is not a playwright, or now she is. No. An award-winning playwright, actually. No, no, no. But at the time, she just wrote in TV episodes. So this was a pretty big leap for everyone to take. But obviously, she knew these characters.

She knew the world. She knew the mythology. And it turned out. It's worth Justin talking about the writing process because actually, Kate, you were the perfect writer for this project because of your process, which you may want to talk about for a second, Justin, about how we workshop and workshop and workshop and Kate has to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite

and a lot of playwrights wouldn't be up for that process and it was very exciting seeing the three of you constantly challenging yourselves. I mean I think it takes someone with the dexterity of Kate and because we originally said to her don't write a play write two episodes and then she delivered these sort of episodes that It was so expansive and we were like, how the hell are we going to do all this stuff? But it really pushed us to go, how can we push what theatre can do, which is what we're constantly trying to do for ourselves. And then it was a process of, which Kate hadn't really done,

which is she would write a script, and then we'd get actors, we'd put it on stage straight away, just in a workshop room, and then it would work or it wouldn't work, and then we'd change it, and it was sort of constant, you're constantly getting feedback on what you've written and what you're working on. And so we're throwing ideas at each other, which are sort of totally mad. And Kate was so responsive to going, I mean, your catchphrase is always, I'm kind of into it. And that was sort of what we, that was the process. But it was a lot of months of workshopping, which is what we do so much in theatre.

And it's a joy because you can test things out. You're not just relying on a script to show up and it's done and you're, you know, that's what you're stuck with doing. And so I don't think a show like this can happen unless there is a sort of symbiotic conversation between us and Kate and the rest of. the team because we're all coming at it with what theater can do with what new sort of imagination or idea that Kate's thrown out that's to blow up our own imaginations and we constantly did that throughout this and was surprised by it and ourselves and I think the show and where we got to is a testament of that because it's it's done things that none of us on our own could have done. What is the early or late creative breakthrough for you Kate that kind of unlocks

this story. So, like, you kind of have the broad strokes from early on in the initial conversation with Matt and Ross that you want to explore this time period and these characters and Henry. But, I don't know, was there some point where you kind of, like, knew what the show was going to be? I felt like I got really involved, like, really early on. As soon as I knew that it was an origin story of Henry Creel and that it was going to be, you know, with these big cast members as teenagers. I'm one of the reasons I love working on the show so much is because I'm obsessed with teenagers and as soon as I said it, I wanted to take it back. Strike it, guys. I think that

that time is so electric and exciting. I struggled a lot as a teenager and I think that this idea of are you inherently evil, can you change, can things change you, you know, how much control do you have is, was always really fascinating to me. And so I was so excited to tackle the kind of like granddaddy of like Vecna, like the ultimate evil, like pure evil and like how do you get there and what were you before. And then, you know, in a broader sense with each of these you know, canon characters of Joyce Hopperbob and, you know, even like to a lesser extent like Karen and Sue and, you know, Ted and all these people, it was such a fun challenge as a writer to say we know what they are and how do we go back and reverse engineer what they were

and then create this play that is about the moment that changed them all fundamentally to make them what they are. This like scar informs who they become and as recognizable characters in the show. So you know like Hopper responding with like guilt and Joyce responding with this like fierce desire to protect, you know, like how can all of that spring from this central event that is the play? And so that was like just I mean madness. It was madness. It was so fun though. with amex platinum access to exclusive amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside so being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime that's the powerful backing of amex pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race terms and conditions

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You've said this is the hardest production, the most ambitious production you've ever been a part of. Look up Sonia Friedman's resume. You will know that is saying something. Talk to me a little bit about why you say that. What makes this as challenging as it is? To put this genre on stage, I think it's one of the reasons why Stephen initially was so excited,

because I think he wanted at this stage in his career to also challenge himself in terms of what is possible physically on stage, always to be driven by emotional narrative, but how can you get real supernatural sci-fi horror on stage, but always through narrative? And I think we surrounded ourselves with the best of the best, and it was one of those moments where everyone said we've never been given this opportunity before

to really, really push those boundaries of what's possible technically on stage. And I certainly as a producer, I'm always sort of saying more, more. I want, you know, what more can we do? What more can we achieve? And I think all of us were trying to see how far we could push ourselves

and it was an incredible experience because the collaboration between lighting, sound, music, video, illusion, set, costume, it was more or less

for most of the time seamless and they all collaborated we all got on the same training we all want the same journey and you do have to see it to experience what I'm talking about, but it's

pretty remarkable what everybody's achieved. And I do think theater has never seen anything like it. I will say, I was at the Friday Night performance, and there were literally people around me that it's like, you know, you're in that movie theater experience when someone's like, what the, like literally speaking back to the screen,

that happens multiple times in this show. We've seen the doc, like the first time you guys see it, it's without all the bells and whistles. You're just seeing kind of the raw material. I don't think we see, do we see the first time you ever see the show? Can you put us in your heads of like when you saw something close to the production that's going to land on Broadway and what it felt like?

Yeah, I remember early on. Especially remember we saw an early on version of the opening scene, which that alone was. Now there's even more stuff in there, but in London, that was the effect that just blew us away. Because you see this stuff when we talked to Kate about ideas, but, you know, it's hard to imagine how anyone could pull that off. and just in front like it's just a it feels like a magic trick when you see it it's pretty incredible and when you go to a movie or like Ross and I are so into that world and I've grown up with it that I basically know how they're doing everything whereas this is very alien to me so it really blows me away when I see

it because I truly don't know how they I now Gary and so I can get figure out some of it now but even then it's just and they because they have some new a lot of really new massive illusions. Is that the right term? And in Broadway, that they weren't in London that just had my jaw on the floor. I had heard rumors that they were pulling something, going to do something. We just don't know. It's hard to, I don't know, it's been remarkable to watch from that perspective.

And then, like you were saying, the show is awesome, but we don't, I love producing the show, but we don't get that experience of seeing it with a crowd. And so there's something, seeing this show with a crowd, with fans of the show, seeing them react in real time to the extent that they do has been, I don't know, it's been a really powerful experience for Ross and I. So, Justin, we don't want to ruin the show because, again, it should be experienced. But can you hint a little bit about the types of things in this script that are most challenging for you to execute? I would imagine it's a long, long list, but in general terms, what's the major challenge for you as a director

on something like this? Yeah. There were a lot of things. But I think some of the simpler ones that were actually hard in some ways and defined how we made the show and you can see us wrestling with it a bit in this is just how to do intercutting and how to do match cuts

which are so a part of the energy and the rhythm of the series and we wanted to have that in the show so that it's driving you forward. and we had to find our own language that did that. And that took a while to figure out. But it's a, we've been using three revolves and it enables us to deliver.

I mean, what you don't want to do in Indecutting is the lights go out and all the actors freeze and do nothing while the other lot are doing their thing and then back and forth. So we found this language and that took us quite a long time to figure out how to do that. But it was sort of like a cuckoo clock almost in the way that it works so that it keeps coming at you in the way that the series does and you can sit with these characters and come back.

The illusions, I mean, some of it is illusion stuff and some of it is just amazing staging. I mean, some of the illusion guys, I mean, they're credited as illusions, but some of it is just very, very clever use of scenery and set. And I think to what Sonny was saying about everyone coming together, the thing I love most about the show is that a lot of the time when people have done things like that before, there's a gimmick to it, oh, where everyone's doing video, or everyone's suddenly doing this. What we really tried to do is to integrate every part,

of it and Sonny was a huge part of pushing this so that it never felt like it was gratuitous or it was to do it. It feels, I mean, I don't know if you two feels, it feels like old-fashioned filmmaking in some ways. It's like there's no CGI, there's no, it's just what you're seeing is happening in front of you. And I think that's hugely exciting and what, you know, I love about films of that old genre. But, you know, in time, because it was real and now you see it in front of you and it is extraordinary. For the documentary you've just seen, obviously we don't have this. edit. We can't edit. We're having to edit in front of an audience live and that's

pretty terrifying putting it out in front of an audience and literally listening and hearing and figuring out what we've got. I mean that first preview we did in London I mean I'm probably exaggerating to make the point but it was about four hours long or something. It was very, very long and whilst the audience went wild we knew we had a huge amount to do

Matt and Ross were in for the first time to see it properly had loads of notes and it was very very stressful period because we were trying the technology for the first time and a new play in a really small

theater and the train has left the station the train is going to your reviews and you can't do anything about it no and you can't do anything about it and you know that you have to go up the following day at the same time and you have to keep doing that. But it was an incredible experience. I mean, in terms of the

technology, I think, I've never actually counted, but I know that there are no less than 2,000 lighting and sound cues, just, and that's a lot. Sounds like a lot. And that's without everything else.

I mean, we're talking thousands and thousands of cues from the moment the show starts over the end, and that means we also have, and we haven't credit them enough, the most incredible team behind the stage, who are really as essential as what's happening on stage. We also, it's crazy, we haven't even talked about the actors of this, and it's obviously it takes an exceptional team of actors to perform these roles, and not to mention some of

these characters are very iconic already and very, very familiar to an audience. Let's start with Victor, or rather Henry, rather. What were you looking for in your Henry Creel? What was the casting process like? I mean, it's always hard to find Henry's because you need someone who's got the edge that has that danger but also has charm. And we saw so many kids both here and in the UK. And weirdly, they seem to come from little pockets like Louis, who's playing, who was so much a part of creating it. because he was so young

he's from the Northern Ireland and he just we sort of saw him in the line and went there's something about that kid and then he came and he had this darkness to him and we were going to do he have charm and so we brought him back in and he had done these YouTube clips of him doing

monologues from plays which was so weird but that was utterly charming and he has been so much a part of creating what that character became in the way that we workshop and he he really sort of balances this thing so you do really feel the pathos

of an ordinary kid who's going through something. It's a good tip for anyone out there who wants to be an actor. Louis may not have got the job without those YouTube clips because we weren't sure and then we found these YouTube clips of him doing all these other little characters

and we thought actually he could do that and so then you brought him back in. Yeah, completely. I mean he'd not trained really he'd done a little bit He was on an Irish soap that was, which he plays a bartender. And he, you know, but it was very, I mean, it was just for Tudus. And I think all the castings happen like that.

It's been quite organic. We've had to go far and wide to try to honor these characters. And we've just come up with some extraordinary people, most of whom have not done a lot before. I think there's something like 70% of the cast. It's their Broadway debut. So it's a massive. And in London, it was most of them.

It's the first time in the West End. But there's also a whole lot of kids who'd never been on stage before. There was, I think in London, 16 was the youngest. And, you know, it's a joy to see, to find these kids and then to see them just sort of spring into, you know, I'm hoping most of them will stay on in our industry. But it's, yeah, it's a joy to find them. And we've been lucky enough in our lives to do that a few times, but this show is something else. And then finding folks for, I know it's different actors for this Broadway production, but I mean, I was so impressed by, you know, again, these characters, Hopper and Jolias and Bob, but they're so ingrained and they're. and for these actors to allude to them

and have some kind of mannerisms and reminders, but to do their own thing. That must have been a careful dance for you as a director to kind of instruct them and kind of guide them towards just enough towards familiarity. Totally, the total dance. I mean, actually, weirdly, in the production here,

there's a couple of actors who did the very first workshop. And the problem with, when that happens, all you can think about is that actor playing it. And Allison, who's playing Joyce here, had never seen the series. And Ted Sarandos walked up and went, you are the essence of Joyce. And she was like, I don't know what she's talking.

I literally don't know what he's talking about. She's watched it since, she tells me. But it is, it was weird. It's, you know, there is, they're so iconic and they, I mean, some of them, some of the actors had to get, had a process to get there, but there were a few like Alison and the others who just, they are the character.

I find it so fascinating that you guys chose to do this when you did this. You could have waited till after the show was all done and then gone back and told a back story, but this is happening in real time. We have Stranger Things Five coming very, very soon. And Matt and Ross have agreed to tell everything that happens on stage tonight. Don't worry, no.

No, but I mean, this is going to be in communication back and forth between that season. I would think there are going to be things in this show that resonated in a different way after I see Stranger Things Five, and vice versa. So talk to me a little bit about what that creative dance has been in drafting this. No, I mean, I think that that was part of Stephen's original ideas. That's something very cool, and I agree about bridging the seasons, that it is in communication a lot with season four, and it's setting up five in a way, but it is going to be interesting.

I think it informs five if you've seen the plane, and you're going to see, and then you watch season five, but then at the same time, if you're seeing the play after you've seen season five, it'll probably play a little bit differently. But it's certainly, I mean, Kate can speak to this as well. I mean, you see that briefly in the documentary where we're trying to figure out how much information to put in this play, because we don't want to ruin the season five experience for anyone, and we don't want people to feel left out that are unable to get to New York

or to London, but at the same time, we want the play to be meaningful and to play a role. So I think finding that balance took a while, and especially, Kate can speak to that more, but it took a long time to find exactly what that balance is, but we're pretty, we're happy with where it is now. What was that bleeped out part, by the way, that little, just could you just clarify, I didn't quite get it. What was the thing that?

Oh, it was B. But I also want to stress that my job was also to encourage it as much as possible to be a play that stood alone. and that if you hadn't seen any of the TV show you could still get, understand the play yes there are Easter eggs all the way through but it wouldn't matter if you didn't know what those Easter eggs were and I think we've succeeded in that as well

Kate can you elaborate a little bit in terms of the back and forth and is there anything you guys can say in terms of stuff to pay attention to in the play that will perhaps reap some further rewards on seeing the final season? Careful. I mean, I was working on, I was writing the play and writing season five

at the same time. And so they're, to me, like just two pieces of a whole and they're inextricable from each other. And I think that the experience of consuming both together, is going to be really fun and satisfying to see how connected they are.

But other than that, I literally don't think I can tell you a single thing. Guys, do you want to jump in here? Anything we should look for? No. No. No. I mean, it did.

I think part of the challenge, I think what you're seeing in that play is like we were, Kate was doing five with us, but at a certain point, you were just here doing this while we were filming, and then we were,

were working on finale stuff and as Matt and I were doing finale stuff was changing like it was everything was evolving in real time and I think that's what made it the biggest challenge because as we got to script we realized certain story points weren't we needed to change things and then that affected the play but they were in the middle of doing the play and so things just it was it was very close cause and the timing was like a few weeks before the play open but this is what this is what Stephen wanted he wanted this dialogue so You know, that was the consequences. It was fun.

In retrospect, it's fun. It was a lot of work, though, wasn't it? No. It was fun. It was fun. Wait, I didn't get charged for my donut. It was free with this Tim's rewards points. I think I just stole it.

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see the Tim's app for details at participating in restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best? You are. I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're off mute.

Hey. Happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. I really found the telling when you talked about Matt and Ross having no poker face in watching scenes. Can you elaborate on that? Is that something you've experienced on set?

It's a nightmare. It's something that I love about them because I also have no poker face. So I feel like there was a lot of nonverbal communication. happening between the three of us? Well, it's not, no, you have no filter. It's a little different. Okay, wrong. I don't even know.

Sonia's laughing because it's true. That's not true. That's not, okay, it's true. Fuck it. But, no, it's, we've always had, I feel like, I feel like we've always had a really upfront, relationship with each other

which has made things really easy but yeah it's horrifying because I don't know there's a certain level of comfort in knowing that they're not they're not going to pull punches because they can't they physically can't their faces will tell you the truth

and luckily their voices will also tell you the truth well there's also on the flip side though and there's a tendency in writer's rooms for people to be that we found of everyone just being like that's a great and everyone's so nice and they want to support each other. But Kate comes in.

She's never been in a writer's room on season two and just doesn't realize that's how people do it. But it was great because we need people to be like, no, that's not a good idea. And I don't like that. And this is why, not in a mean way. She's trying to be supportive, but I think that's one reason we also trust her with this play is that she's just very honest with us

and she's not afraid to be like, this doesn't work and this is better or I'm not there yet, I can't figure it out. out. And I think that honesty forces everyone just to keep trying to be better and better and better. Do you guys now look at any of these familiar characters a little bit differently, having had this story told? You look at Hopper and Joyce and Bob, et cetera, with different empathy, different feelings. Do you think the audience will? No, I mean, yeah, I think so. I mean, to me, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know, it's really interesting. I mean, you know, we, having been involved in developing sort of the core concept,

and then Kate, someone who also knows these characters extremely well and actually having the time spending now, I don't know, how long you've spent thinking about and fleshing out these characters and their backstories, and then seeing these actors bring them to life. I mean, it's been a really surreal experience for Ross and I, and we're still kind of processing what that is, because not being there every day, working on, in fact, not being, I mean, we were off making the show and then having these incredible people develop this and flesh out these characters that we came

up with nine years ago. So I don't know, it has been, it has been for us, I think, illuminating in terms of these characters and where they came from, and some of it, if it didn't make sense to me right away, it does start to make sense with time. So it's sometimes jarring initially, but then revelatory, the more you think about it. Well, it speaks volumes that you, frankly, just agreed to this process and to let this happen. You've been so precious with this baby of you or stranger things.

You could have, if you wanted, let Netflix make six spinoffs and cartoons and whatever by now, and the fact that you kind of opened up the aperture a little bit to this. But this one was easy because it was, I think it's all about who you're working with. So it's Stephen Daldry, it's Sonia, it's Justin, it's Kate, who someone we know work and work with intimately. So it was easy. And the other thing I was like I was going to say I like about how it came to us is it didn't come from

Netflix. It wasn't Netflix's idea. This was Stephen's idea. Stephen was the one who had to push it and make it happen. They weren't even, you know, it just like, it just, it was, he was passionate about it and I think that's the key. And then you have something like this, you can have people just churning out stuff to make money and using the name but that's obviously not what this was this was Stephen fighting to make this happen

I mean it was surreal to us that Stephen Doldry wanted to do it I took a second to understand that but that it came from him it came from him and then Kate is you know Kate is someone who's just such a huge part of the show and the DNA

of the show and it speaks volumes I know you know Stephen wanted to be here couldn't be here tonight but we're with you, Justin, and like pushing yourselves and like you've never done a production like this. No one's really done a production like this. And to kind of like set a new bar for what theater can accomplish in terms of a thriller, a horror, a spectacle, is really inspiring to see. It was, I mean, the first conversation I had with Stephen was about this was he said, have

you ever been scared by theater? And I sort of thought back and I had a little bit, but never sort of thought it was possible because you're always safe in some way. But, I mean, I was watching the show a couple of nights ago, and, like, it generally jumps here, which is brilliant. And, you know, unfortunately, there were some kids who were sort of six in there who were not, you know, who were, like, screaming and trying to run out. I jumped at least twice. There are some jump scares. Be prepared. But it's a testament to that world.

And that's the thing I think we enjoyed the most is we could jump into this imaginary world with these sort of imaginary provocations. like, you know, can we get a fully realized ship on stage? And it was just like, how are we going to do that? That's not a metaphor, by the way. He's saying an actual chef on stage. Talking of metaphors, but I think the other thing that, I mean, that Stephen, when you settled on the story, when it was, that's when he really, really began to,

I know what to do because I think we all were really intrigued and excited about having as our protagonist a young teenage boy who is struggling with the monster that is growing inside him and trying to take over

it's obviously a brilliant metaphor for the world we live in now and crucially do you care for him because he ends up doing some pretty awful things as we know but we I think we've managed

to thread that needle I think he you you understand and you care for this little kid who's you know ends up doing terrible things but you can see that it was out of his control so this show is premiering on Broadway tomorrow as we said

it's obviously continues to have an amazing run in London I would imagine you continually learn from audiences it's an evolving thing, it never stops. For those that have seen it in London versus here, is it a markedly different show? How would you...

Well, something like the script's about 120 pages and we changed about 100, I think, or something. Which is for different reasons. I mean, the set itself, and I don't know if the documentary quite shows up, but it takes about six months to build from the moment they start building. And so by the time we got to technical rehearsals,

if illusions didn't work or something didn't work, we had to sort of fudge it and so the chance to go back and to kind of redo it and then we wanted to make it a bit shorter and we wanted to um we and Kate and I've had a wonderful time riding for the actors because it you know different actors bring different things to it and so that just meant that a process of kind of building it for here and this audience and and it's been really exciting watching them and they do respond to different things to London which is cool you know and we have to be responsive to that because you know it's such an alive um medium and I mean it sort of the documentary gives you a sense of the mentalness of how that what that is like to do because you are constantly learning and you're they respond to that they like that they don't like that and then something breaks and then this happens and you're constantly sort of spinning these plates and like just to take one section apart and take four hours and to put it back together and and you say we only have a certain amount of those that we can do before we we start getting the press in so it was it was a very then it's about priority

and going, we're going to look at that bit and that bit will solve it or we're going to cut that scene and that will solve. It's very I think that probably does give a sense of how mental it is. We're a much bigger theatre now. So we've had more opportunities to build on some of the physical

production. I mean all I can say to anybody you haven't seen is the mind flair is it's mind boggling and mind blowing it's and whereas in London we love our mind flare don't we? But it's...

But it's... It's a sweet in London. It's a sweet, mind-fuel. It's sweet. Whereas here, it's absolutely extraordinary. It's true. And I watch the audience every night watch that, and I think it is.

But that's Desmond. Like, we opened the show in London, and the next day, or a couple days later, Sonia said, let's get back to work. And that was sort of a luxury that you don't get because producers, like Sonia and Netflix don't... You know, they gave us an opportunity to go, let's keep inventing.

let's keep working this and that doesn't always happen. Normally you go, did it work great, let's just put it up again. So we went back to work over a year ago now and so it takes a long time to get it here and we've done a lot of work on it and we're really proud of it. You guys must get a different kind of sense

of satisfaction Matt Ross and Kate just seeing it with an audience. I mean you put something out into the world, you can look at Twitter and Instagram and feel it and you feel a sense, but there's no substitution for hearing an audience hearing their collectively gasps and breath. Can you give me a sense of what it's been like just to like live in that live space with this show?

Yeah, I mean that the way that they respond and also don't respond, which is brutal and instructive, as Stephen would say, tonight was a very instructive show. How illuminating. which means bad but also such a shortcut I mean writing on your own is such a lonely you know or a boris endeavor of just you know constantly

second guessing yourself and wondering and freaking out and having immediate feedback of knowing if something works or doesn't is a totally different way to do the job and it's so alive and the audience is truly a part of every performance we are in total conversation with every single person in the theater of that the actors feed off the energy of the audience the audience feeds off the energy of the actors and

it's so like inexpressibly beautiful to see that exchange happening there's no substitute for it and it's yeah it's the laughs and the gasps and all of that, but it's also the silence when you know that you've got them. And there's nobody's coughing, nobody's moving, you know people have to pee.

You know, people are, you know, have allergies or whatever, and everybody is just holding their breath in a scene. That's, I mean, there's nothing like it. Yeah, I will forever now take to my grave the coughing note in all Q&A's I ever have through the rest of time, Sonia. I'm going to be listening for that cough.

Don't cough. I know. No, I sort of regret saying it, actually, but it's true. I also love seeing in the documentary some of the actors from the show seeing their counterparts. It must have been mind-blowing for them. Was there any post-mortem further stuff we didn't see on screen of talking to David or Matthew, et cetera, about what it was like for them to see their characters realized in this way?

You know, this will have to be on your podcast. You've got to talk to them. I don't know. But no, I think it's for them. It's the same for us. I think it's a very surreal experience. You know, so I don't know. I just know they love the play.

I know they love the play. It is also striking. Just to note, so many of your actors on the show have great experience on stage in the past and even currently. I mean, Sadie is currently on Broadway right now. Her show is fantastic. Actually, she's seeing our show tonight.

There you go. Sadie, I know Maya's going to do off-Broadway soon. Is there any kind of commonality on the actors that, like, is it just happenstance that so many of them have that part of their? interest? I think it's because, I mean, a lot of them, Caleb was on, and Lion King, and then Sadie, I mean, she's on now in Broadway, but she did Annie, and so I think Gaden, Le Ma' Miz, and I mean, Gaden is just a Broadway freak. And I think, but I think part of it is just the training

that being on in the theater gives to these children at that age in terms of, like, when we went out, we weren't looking for Broadway kids, but they would always stand out automatically, just because I think the rigor, I mean, Justin can speak to it more, but it's like that rigor of like, of doing it day after day and hitting your marks and saying your cues and hitting all these, getting every line right. I think it just trains them in a way that's just really prepares them in an amazing way for screen. I mean, especially when we were casting 11, 12, 13-year-old kids, you know, most of them, they can't focus for more than 10, 15 seconds, but Broadway, yeah, does train them or to attract the kind of kids who are going to make it in Broadway are able to do that

and they were able they're able to stand on their marks and so on by the way we saw john proctor yesterday sadie so good right i know if you you get to check that out would you it's cruel to say this as you just sort of like mounting this on Broadway would you do another play would you is there another stranger things play in kate ready to write another play what I'm very tired, guys. I'm going to go on vacation. I can't speak to that. I know there's some crazy rumor floating around

that this is the first part of a trilogy, which I cannot confirm or deny. No, I'm denying it. It's not real. That's fake. That's not real. I think it's cool, though, the conversation between the screen and the stage,

and I think the more of that happens, I think is good. And so much of the rigor of what you guys do in terms of structure is useful for us. It's because particularly when we're dealing with problems like we need a scene this long because we've got to do this crazy set change behind. And you want that to be meaningful and to not feel like filler. And I think the rigor of what television writing makes you do in terms of that is so useful. So I hope there's more of it.

Would you ever go the other way and adapt this for the screen? anybody would you make this into TV film any other medium this story you answer you answer I think well I think right now the goal is just I think we want it to we want these to run for a long time in London and on on on Broadway and hopefully hopefully elsewhere right Sonia so well that that's where it's going to live live for now but we're excited this documentary's out in the world now and yeah hopefully people just keep going to see it.

As we wrap up, we've kind of alluded to a lot of things to be proud of, anybody can take this. What are you most proud of a small, big moment, just getting it done? What do you take a source of pride in as we're on the eve of this Broadway opening for Stranger Things? 75% of our audience are first time theater goes. And we can sometimes be seen as a dying medium. And we can sometimes be seen as a dying medium. then you have this, you have that sort of statistic. And if they go and see one more play, then we've helped the whole ecology of Broadway, of London,

but of theatre, you know, wherever this show goes. It's an astonishing feat to get people into the theatre who've never been before. It's huge. It's a, as I said before, it's a hell of an achievement, guys. And we really appreciate you sneaking away from the theatre with less than 24 hours to go. You guys have had a really cool sneak peek at this production,

and spread the good word. Stranger Things, The First Shadow, opening night, wish these guys luck, and spread the good word of the show. See it if you can. Thank you guys for coming out. Thanks, everybody. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused.

Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director.

You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overreacted. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them.

We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the movie.

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