Happy Sad Confused - Terry Gilliam

Episode Date: September 21, 2014

Visionary director Terry Gilliam has helmed some of the most influential films of our times, from "Brazil" and "The Fisher King" to "Twelve Monkeys" and "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas". Thankfuly he's still got imagination to spare as evidenced by his latest film, "The Zero Theorem". Gilliam stops by Josh's office to talk about some of his notable triumphs and failures and why he doesn't consider himself a director. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Here I come! One battle after another. Only in theater, September 26th. Experience it in IMAX. Hey guys, welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I'm Josh Horowitz, and welcome to another edition of my podcast. This week's episode is a truly fantastic, brilliant filmmaker. I know I'm throwing out the superlatives, if I can speak, and the adjectives, but I can't say enough about Terry Gilliam. He holds a truly important place in my heart, as you'll hear in this conversation. My very first recollection of seeing a movie in theaters is, going to see Time Bandits, which should tell you all you need to know about the film Lover I am today, because I did love his work from the start. He has made, I mean, just to rattle off a few off the top of my head of films that I love, Brazil, of course, Baron Munchausen,

Fear and Lothing in Las Vegas, 12 Monkeys, which is truly one of my favorite movies, and not to mention the Fisher King, which I know a lot of people watched again recently in the wake of Robin's passing. It features an amazing performance from Robin and actually one of my favorites from Jeff Bridges as well. He is thankfully still working, still hustling, still trying to get budgets even in this time when studios are not so anxious to fund the bizarro brain of Terry. He has just made a film called The Zero Theorem, which is now out in theaters. It's also available on VOD, probably where you are. It starts Kristol Valtz and Matt Damon. And it's kind of a view. view of the future, but as you'll hear Terry describe it, it's also kind of a view of our

present. It is, it fits very much, I'll say this, into the Terry Gilliam Uvra. You'll see, when you see it, you can immediately recognize it as a Terry Gilliam film, and I count that as a high compliment. Terry was kind enough to come by the bastion of corporate greed and commercialism that is Times Square, which felt so ironic to me, given what an iconoclast he is, the other day to talk about zero theorem and a great many other things. This is a very candid conversation from a filmmaker who it hasn't always been an easy path for. He's had notable failures as well as notable successes. So I know this was a huge treat for me, and I think if you're a fan of movies and in particular, an appreciator of all things Terry Gilliam,

you're going to dig this one. As always, guys, please hit me up on Twitter, Joshua Horowitz, review and rate this podcast on iTunes. Spread the word. And in the meantime, here he is. The crazy loon. The awesome man that is, and the great filmmaker that is Terry Gilliam. Come on in.

Oh, cozy room here. Oh, look at this. Welcome to my palatial. Oh, this is very nice. This is all yours? It's me. This is me. Do you like what I've done with the place?

It's pretty, um, Oh, yeah. The white is disconcerting. Oh, what a beautiful building across it. The view is wonderful. It's a hotel. I saw a naked man last week. It was really exciting.

Really? Yeah. What more can you ask for? Do you keep a mirror here, so you don't have to turn around? Exactly. Yes, the heart of Times Square. I feel like there's irony in bringing Terry Gilliam into the bastion of commercialism of Times Square. I just find it calming here.

Do you? Oh, yeah. It's so, you hate it all so much that you go into a Zen place. I know, not even in the town anymore. No, no, no. It's interesting, yeah. Yeah. It's one of the things we're talking about, zero theorem and people, all that.

Zero theorem is nothing compared to Times Square. Oh, no. It's called provincial. Exactly, exactly. If it's cool, we're off and running too, sir. Oh, okay. Congratulations on the film, by the way. I really enjoyed it.

You've been making the rounds. I know you're, I mean, you're like, you're the show in this one. This is being sold on your name. I'm the whore. Do you feel, I mean, is that a bargain that you're happy to make where, you know, if this were a bigger studio film, you'd have that machinery, but there would be compromises, et cetera, this smaller budget, but it's your show.

I've been doing this since the beginning with Python. We always promoted our stuff because, you know, that was what we did. So it's not new or strange. It's just what one does. I am surprised that, you know, they've not put critical. stuff to work and, you know, and tilt of it.

But I've got to take the route for it, so here I am. This one feels, you know, we, you know, I've talked to you, I talked to you at Comic-Con, and that was for Parnassas, and obviously that had sadly troubles around the heat's untimely passing, and, you know, other productions that, you know, it's all been written about to death, but like, do you steal yourself for disappointment at this point in your career that something is going to come down? because this one seems relatively not easy, but...

Yeah, no, no, no, I do. I wait for the other foot to come down, the other boot to drop. It's like, it's there. I don't spend much time worrying about it, but I am... I don't think I'm prepared for when it goes wrong. I'm less patient, but it goes wrong these days.

I just, enough of this. How long did Job have to put up? How many boils it need to deal with? and it's and no but this one was smooth in the extent that everything happened fast once I started working and once I got Christoff that was in mid-July and by the beginning of October the first week we were shooting that doesn't happen and the whole thing was in that sense a different experience because of the speed with which everything occurred there was no time to think double think you know get it wrong it was just instinctive and

and rather than bang, there was no time to bang your head against the brick wall. It was like, okay, brick wall, turn left, turn right, you know, find another way around it. And in that sense, it was really good. And what was interesting in this case that there was more work in post than normal in the editing

because I shot the script and then decided, well, I think I better rewrite it. Normally you do that before you shoot it. But I had all these pieces of the puzzle. I just rearranged them a bit. So does that mean reshoots or in the edit room you're reconfiguring? We never reshoot. I've never done a reshoot. So yeah, it's refiguring.

It's like, okay, we've got the pieces for a patchwork quilt. It doesn't have to go together that way. We can put it together that way. It works better. And it's very interesting because Pat's script was the first script you'd ever written and it read very well, but when it actually came to shoot, you realized, oh, that's a bit too long that scene. What's going on?

But we didn't have time to rewrite while we were shooting. while we were shooting, so we shot. And I always loved the editing process anyway, because it happens on all my films. I pull scenes out and move things around. This was more so, and in a way, discovered the film in the editing room. Is there a sense on set, like,

I would think, you know, with the amount of experience under your belt, if you know in your heart of hearts that maybe this isn't the scene, it's not to your satisfaction in terms of even in the script stage and you're on set and this is what you have to work with, is there a confidence that like, I know enough to make this, to tweak this even in post.

I can figure out a way to make this work. Yeah, I cover my ass, basically. I don't do, which I did at the beginning, the whole scene in one shot. No, I make sure we've got coverage. Right, right. So that we can fiddle it, because you don't know. And I think in that sense, I've become more cautious, less arrogant, and I just play it safer.

Because I know in editing we can do so much. You can really change a film. completely. And I'm always in that position where I've got control of it that I can. There's nobody over my shoulders saying, you can't do that. There was producer Casey screaming, you can't do that, but he had no power ultimately. So Christoph is new to your universe. Is there a consistency, you think, in performers that fit into your bizarre world? I know. I just like good actors, is what I really like, and actors that are fearless, who are, you know, who,

and not worried about their career, their image, any of those things. It's the character, and what's the character demand. And that's what was wonderful. And someone like Christoph is great, because he is the film. He's never off screen. And so we'd get in there on certain days, and he says, well, I've seen doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't really make sense to me. So let's do it this way.

And we would wing it because we know the totality of what we're trying to do. And, okay, you shift it like that. And it was like that always. There was, I shot one, I didn't do it, reshoot, I lied, there was one bit where the script demanded, in his frustration, he starts taking a knife and cutting his arm. And we did it, and it looked, it was very powerful, but it's too much, it's too much. So we ended up him just scratching in a nervous way, which is, it's much better. sure and so those are the things you do but you know you I shot the first thing because I would just we're doing the script and then I looked at it I said you're right this is just too much we're pushing it it's it's and I I really try to

control the how much suspension of disbelief the audience have to go through right right the cast I mean this is it's a cameo I mean it's a relatively sizable part Matt did you know does a few scenes for this one is this the first instance where Matt Damon has swapped in for a role that was intended for Al Pacino at one point? No. Is it supposed to be Al Pacino playing this? No. It was always Matt.

Oh, was it really? Yeah, yeah, no, no. I've been talking to Al Pacino about another film. Okay, fair enough. No, this was genuinely, I had to actually, I've been thinking, oh, it could be Jeff Bridges. Okay. And then Matt, I thought, oh, no, Matt, it would be really interesting. And sent him, I didn't send him, I sent up an email and said,

I got the small part, it's just a few days, I'll send you the script. he says, don't bother. I mean, and that's what's great to have been able to work with great actors like that who are willing to come and play. And basically do it for scale is all they worked for. He just came in and did it. And that's the stuff that I really feel, you know, in fact, we made the film because of these kinds of friendships or friendships that wanted to make in the past and finally got to do it. Tilda Swinton, Ben Whishaw, they all came in there. Just a Peterstone. I work for scale.

Yeah, this is fun. Do you consider this depiction of the future or depiction of where we're at now? Well, when I started, it was the near future. As we were shooting, it became the past. It's a period now. Yeah, it's a period piece. It's a period chamber piece, exactly. So what's rattling around in your head in terms of what you're, again, it's amazing

from what I've read that the budget is not exorbitant, but what you're able to achieve is extraordinary, and especially in those first few scenes where you have to set up What is a very highly stylized and unique vision? What's rattling around your head and what you're trying to capture? Well, strangely, the script described a world that was much more Kafka-esque. It was dark and dreary out there. And I said, no, no, no.

Because I was always aware that it would be compared to Brazil, because it is a companion piece. There's no question about it. Because it's my way of looking at the world now, which Brazil was about looking at the world end. Just the fact the world now is like the world I imagine. imagined there. You're prophetic, sir.

And this one, I seem to be a lot of my prophetic skills because it's now history. What you see. It goes on. It was just, I wanted the idea was, I wanted to make the world not a dark, gray, dreary place. I wanted to be the dream come true. Everybody's bright and bouncy. Ads are flying around. I mean, we're here in Times Square.

And there it is. And it was about the idea of a colorful world where everybody's happy, there's zipping around, shopping is wonderful, 24 hours a day, all the things you've ever wanted out of it. And it gave me a chance to throw other ideas in, like, you know, Batman the Redeemer, the church. Batman the Redeemer, because as we were walking here to your fabulous studio, I haven't said. I wish the world could see it. Now you know why we only do audio in here. We're in the broom closet. It's not the one Monica Lewinsky used, I'll tell you.

It's not the White House. It's ad bright. My apologies. Do you like the fluorescent light? It is good. It is good. It makes me feel and look as old as I am. Me too.

Too many both. Anyway, just walking here. I passed guys selling on the street all these comic book images. Yes. The new religion is the new hero. I mean, Jesus is pretty exciting, but these guys really do. Get down and dirty. And you really feel this is taken over.

I mean, the old religion, the old way of describing what the world is has been replaced. And so it's a chance for in about 30 seconds to take the piss out of a great chunk of the world that exists now. And it's also to set up our main character who can't deal with this, this inundation of information and knowing. and we'll fix your problems, we'll make you rich, and want to make you happy. All those things, he can't deal with it. And that's why he has to go back to his burnt-out church. Literally, yes.

You mentioned religion. I had the privilege of sitting down talking to Woody Allen recently, and it strikes me, correct me if I'm wrong, you consider yourself an atheist, yes or no? I wish I was that committed. Okay, fair enough. I'm a pagan. Okay.

But, I mean, Woody said to me, and he said to many others that, you know, essentially it's all just biding time. It's a distraction. We're just trying to distract ourselves from the inevitable. Would you subscribe to that theory that it's... Yeah, I think I'm a bit more optimistic than him. No, I'm actually probably more nihilistic than he is, or nihilistic.

Here's what's interesting. The thing I discovered, and this is why you make a movie, and then we discover later what you've just done. The crime isn't obvious what you're doing it. Right. But the name Cohen-Leth, is the character that Christoph Waltz is playing. And I only discovered a couple weeks ago

in a Canadian blog review of the film because Pat Russian wouldn't tell me where this name come because this is an odd name. And it's basically a play on Koa Lef, which is Hebrew for Ecclesiastes. The preacher, the teacher of Ecclesiastes is Coa Leff. And strange enough, I was working on a preface to this autobiography

that I'm apparently writing, and it was going to begin with vanity of vanities, all is vanity, which is the opening of Ecclesiastes. And Ecclesiastes is the one book in the Bible that has pessimism, even cynicism in it, or wisdom in it, all of those things. And it's about the meaningless of all these things we do, to rise to become a king, to become powerful, to be rich, all those things. They're meaningless, and that is at the heart of this film. I mean, Coen Leff is just,

dreaming of the black hole of nothingness, of just, there's nothing. And so the trick is, how do you find meaning in this neelistic universe? And, you know, either you do it by getting your new iPhone queuing for days to get the new one. Days away as we tape this. And that's it. Or you, you know, religion is very good on many levels. I just don't like it when, you know, swords have to clang. Right.

And I don't like what religion has to demand that my version is the only one, and you must die. So that's my problem with it. It's very comforting. To me, it's the easy way out for a lot of people. In life, it's on. They buy it. It's a certitude, it's a... Exactly.

Brothers Karamov, the brother is Karamov, the brother who is a priest, his dream, because he's a doughter, he's tortured. If only I could be that 300-pound peasant woman who goes into the church, lights candles and says my prayers and everything is fine right but we're not just this is the path

yeah but unfortunately intelligence takes that away from here if you have to think and I've always been keen to try to encourage people to think

if you'll indulge me going back a ways you should know that five-year-old Josh Horowitz his first film in a theater was time bandits I do apologize

was that good parenting or bad parenting what was great parenting that was fantastic because the child the boy was freed from parents who don't listen to it this is true this is true it rocked my world

I came home and tried to push that wall and it wouldn't go what do you I'm curious that film was that intended for did you imagine children would see that and what did you what was your intent in that in terms of an audience what were you thinking it was I was trying to make Brazil at the time

and we had a company called handmade films which was the combination of George Harrison and Python as a result of the life of Brian. And Dennis O'Brien was our manager, and I was trying to sell them on Brazil, going nowhere. And so I just went home one weekend and said, okay, I'm going to write something for all the family, for everybody. And basically came up with the idea,

then got Mike Palin, and then we wrote the thing finally. And that was the intention. And at one point I had an ad line that it was exciting enough for adults and intelligent enough for children. And that's what it was. Truly. I mean, we had huge battles with Dennis over the ending because the idea that the parents are blown up. Well, they didn't learn their lesson.

They should listen to children. Right. It's the point I was making. It does strike me when looking at your films. Like, I can't imagine a few of the, a few of them, which were studio films, even 12 monkeys, which isn't that long ago. I would have trouble imagining a studio making that film now. Oh, it never happened. I think, I mean, we now in the world that we're talking about in zero theorem, the corporates, the corporations, and the corporate thinking rules.

Yeah. More to the point. They're timid. They're timid. They're frightened of taking chances. No, I don't know. I find the current state of cinema is really depressing. And that's why I'm getting more and more interested in cable TV.

Oh, let's go down that road. I know you said you recently were into Breaking Bad. Are you finding you're watching more and more? I just finished watching the killing, the Danish version. I haven't seen the original, okay. It's fantastic. I don't know what the American one is like, but the original one is breathtakingly good. And you're seeing great writing and great characters.

You're not relying on movie stars. You've got people who are right for the part. Imagine that. Funny. And it's just the audience is being treated. like intelligent human beings. Truly, I just saw, I've been talking to everybody, I'm late to the party, but I just saw Fargo,

which is a 10-episode series, which Cohen's had nothing to do with, but is a masterpiece. It's just like, I can't believe it exists in this world, it's a wonderful thing. I saw the first one, I haven't seen the rest, I should, I should. Extraordinary.

Yeah, and the Coens, in the end, just put their name on them. I think what happened was it was pitched to them and basically they looked at the first script or the treatment and they said, Godspeed, which is amazing. That's great. It's wonderful. I mean, I started watching Justify it. I was getting quite into it. Again, from an Elmore Leonard short story becomes a multi-series episode. And it's, but it's, again, the writing is so good. The dialogue, I believe those people.

And the faces aren't, you know, famous people. They're real people that feel like. Right. Right. Well, because I heard somebody saying, I can't remember who back in the day. It's like, you know, there was a time when Richard Dreyfus was a movie star. Today, Richard Dreyfus would not be the lead of closing. encounters of the third kind. Or Jaws. Or Joss, exactly. Roy Scheider, where would he be? No.

No, I know, this is the thing. Now we're, I don't know how to deal with it. It just strikes me, I mean, I was always a comic book fan. I would love to have made a comic book film, but not now. Not in the new world that's out there, because it's, I must admit, on the other hand, the first Avengers that I saw, I'd say three quarters of the film, I was really enjoying it, and then they had to blow up the city.

It's just stupid, because it was a good character piece for a long time, and then it went, eh. So comics, which were always, you know, dangerous are now being tamed. Yeah. That's sad. Do they still come around your way? Do they know better that it's not even on your radar in terms of wishing that comes on my door? Oh, please. I don't believe that.

I don't even have a door anymore. Poor Terry. Did you, I mean, so you mentioned Avengers. I mean, do you make a point, or do you avoid? like blockbusters. You know, there's like, I mean, for my money, Donna, The Pine of the Apes was one that, that, that, that actually surpassed kind of the trappings of a blockbuster this year. Do you just avoid those wholesale? I've been, yeah, I'm just prejudiced now. And I'm sort of holding out to my prejudices, even, well, I'm sure I'm missing a few good films. Do you, I mean, the last, what, the last studio one was Brothers Grimm? Was that? Yeah, if you call the Weinstein's a studio. Oh, boy. Down that path.

Studios are easy to work with. Oh, God. The only disagreement ever over a prosthetic nose in the history. Most expensive nose, yes, exactly, but apparently it got us two more, two million more on the budget. So the deal was that Matt, you wanted Matt, and Matt wanted it too presumably too much. Yeah, it actually, it really changed Matt. Actually, it gave him a different kind of attitude. It was quite interesting, and yet the wine scenes felt that nobody would recognize him. What?

It was a little bump, a tiny bump, which Matt, if you've noticed in all the oceans, films, old he's been wearing noses the whole time and yet we still recognize Matt Damon it's that funicable when 90 of your 90% of your face is still there that people recognize it that's odd I know I think I think

I think they were anti-Semitic the Weinstein's are anti-Semitic they thought I made Matt too Jewish looking at it so do you imagine could you imagine a scenario of working with a studio at this point again I don't know I mean I found

the studio films I did were Fisher King and defective detective and I suppose on fair and nothing in Las Vegas and they were the easiest films I did almost because the studios they make a lot of noise but they're not

they're not berserkers and I can be and there's a very easy thing with the studios in those instances I didn't have an official final cut their secret letters tucked away that could be brought out in court cases later but but I

in the final cut, but what I did know, that Fisher King, if Jeff, Robin, and I stuck together, they wouldn't touch his. Same thing with... You need an ally, yeah. Yeah, with Bruce and Brad. And I always planned those. Who's going to be in the foxhole with me for the final battle? Right. And that's it, because what they're very good at doing is trying to isolate everybody, and just like any good cop who's trying to make a group confess. It strikes me, you mentioned 12 monkeys and Bruce. I mean, you mentioned 12 monkeys and Bruce. I mean, you you've said this before, I think initially you wanted Jeff for that, Jeff Bridges for that.

And it strikes me because Bruce has somewhat of a reputation. And they're often feels like, you know, maybe he's coasting sometimes. It's hard to actually see him acting in a role. It's rarer and rarer. Was it, did you get a different, Bruce Willis on set for whatever reason or whatever place he was in his life? I think it's one of the best performances he's done.

It's incredible. But he wanted to show the world he was a serious actor. That was the thing. He'd come out of Pulp Fiction and he was very, pissed off because he didn't get nominated because Harvey and Mr. Chirvota and Sam

Jackson and the film got made because of Bruce so he was really pissed off. You don't like a, you don't want to piss off Bruce Willis, probably. And he wanted to show he was a serious actor and I, we met in New York and I said, listen, I just want Bruce Willis the actor

to turn out. I'm not the superstar. I don't work with that guy. And you've got to come with nothing, which effectively he did come with nothing and he worked really hard and I think he's wonderful in it and again it was playing completely against character in both cases

because he barely speaks in the movie, he's very laconic and very internal where Brad who's more like that had the motor mouth part which he'd never done so the joy was they know you're in Times Square no it's on fire the building is burning

damn it we're finishing this podcast Terry I'm sorry if we have to die we die and what was so wonderful is to cast opposite what they were known for and they both just rose to the occasion and Brad was at the height and that was like Legends of the Fall like the most romantic like hero at the time and he was this twitchy bizarre oh genius he did I think he did his own haircut his old term it was his idea to have the skewed eye yeah it was it was such an extraordinary time because before Legends came out, you could wander around

with Brad around town and people that's a very nice thing. Legends turned out and security arrived and he couldn't move. Totally. One infamous story, I mean, speaking of like your, you know, flirtation with giant franchises, is you were supposedly the first choice that J.K. Rowing wanted for Harry Potter.

Did you have many conversations with her, with the studio? Never have met her yet. Really? Yeah, I know, but it was producer David Heyman said she wants me and he wanted me and I read the script on my way to meet the studio and I knew why because well she'd clearly seen time band is and multi-python and I just knew how to do it is easy it's just and and the studio was doing what

they do their due diligence they were showing that they really met me and talked to me seriously so they could then tell her he's not quite right but they never in your mind they didn't have an intention of going you were too risky to them No, there was no way, and the sad thing about it was I got into the meeting knowing that all these faces were against me. And as I do, when I start talking about things, I begin to convince myself of the ideas were coming out. I was really flying, and I actually know that I changed a couple of them to think, this is the guy. But the main guy whose name we don't even mention, because he's been forgotten on every front, was slowly dozing off over there. And I said, and I just knew, it's not going to happen.

But I did get a first-class flight out there. I got to do some other work on other things, so it was well worth it. Can you say anything even in that initial meeting of what your take might have been on that? It would have been closer to Alfonso Coron's version. As simple as that. I think he did the good one. His was really good. Chris Columbus is, there's nothing wrong.

I mean, it's solid, but it had no magic to it. And it wasn't dark enough. It didn't capture it. I mean, her writing was always... funny and dark and sweet all at the same time. And Chris got some of it. Some of your other work I need to hit on, Fear and Loathing, which is a remarkable film.

How much, I mean, I don't know what your experience with drugs were in the past. Did any of that inform what you were trying to achieve in that? No, I've never been into drugs. I mean, pot makes me implode, I don't like it. Cocaine, after a couple times with cocaine, cocaine, the hangover from cocaine is so ugly, never again. Now, in Acid, I always said I was going to take LSD when we finished the film.

I still haven't done that. So I'm a pretty drug-free zone here, but that doesn't mean I can't hallucinate like people on drugs do. I mean, was the goal, I feel like I've heard you say this, was the goal to, like, kind of approximate some kind of trippy high in terms of, like, the experience of watching that film? Yeah, it was just to just go. Go, Gonzo filmmaking is my approach to it, just. do it. And, you know, there's things like, there's a moment when Johnny and Benet started checking into the hotel and there's a guy on the phone and the carpet starts curling up his leg. Well, not walking around Las Vegas, that was my idea. It's not in the script, not in the book. It's the

carpet. I mean, it's really vegetal. I mean, it doesn't take much for this stuff starting happening. So I can do that stuff very easily without needing artificial stimulation. And it just I don't know. It's stuff that I do without analyzing or even intellectualizing. I just seem to make sense. Yeah. That makes sense to do it that way? Do you find that, I mean, do you ever worry that does the well ever run dry? Do you feel like imagine, you have a finite amount of imagination, a finite amount of great ideas in you?

Yeah, it's dry. No, it's not. I think we're here. And now at the moment, I just don't, I don't know what's going on. I don't feel. I think I've had this weird experience. Normally when I make a film, I identify it with the character, either whether we're writing it or as we're shooting it. I have to identify with the characters.

I've become Cohen post-film. Do those spirits happen where you're like, that's it? I don't have another one in me. There's nothing left. It's over. Well, there's always Don Quixote. Oh, that's even more painful. No.

Why? I mean... Well, I was an email at 5 o'clock this morning. I won't go into what's going on. Well, maybe we shouldn't go down this road, but I'll ask, just ask this, why the impulse to keep going back to something that's been, had caused you so much pain and frustration over the years? Stupidity, pig-headedness, just to show the world's reason does not triumph.

I don't know. It is, it's, I've recently been describing it as a tumor that kept growing and I have to excise it if I ever get my life back. If I'm ever going to survive, I have to get rid of this thing. It's not because I have to do it or want to do it. I just need to get rid of it. Is Defective Detective another small tumor growing? Well, it's very funny because I'm here in New York

and I'm going to be meeting up with Richard LaGrobinates who wrote Fisher King, who wrote on Defective Detective with me. And we're thinking, is it possible to stretch it into an eight-part TV thing? I don't know, yeah. I'm trying. No, because I think we reached the point. I mean, I was reading it on the way over here, and it's almost a bit too big for films.

It's, it would, on the other hand, it's so much more imaginative than anything you see out there. Yeah. And I just wonder if by giving it more space, it can play on a quite a different level with still all the amazing leaps of imagination. I mean, this is the problem now. When you see films, I don't find them imaginative.

They're technically imaginative, they're visually imagined. But they're not about ideas. They're not about things that make you shift your perspective of what the world is or how it works. Right. I just saw his, as in Toronto, I saw the last five years, which he wrote and directed, Richard L. Gravenet, which is a musical. Oh, this is musical, yeah. Yeah, it's a good piece of work. I mean, you've never done a musical, correct?

No, I've always been thinking of it, but now Clint Eastwood is doing musicals. Right. All that's They're too late. It feels like it would not be a big leap. I mean, your worlds would lend themselves to something radios and... Yeah, I mean, that's why, in a sense, I've been doing opera. I mean, I've done a couple.

It's just probably the same thing. You're working with music and imagery. I just, the right one hasn't come along. For a long time, well, years ago, I was really keen on making Condé, the musical, into a film. with Johnny Depp playing Condede. And this is way back, this is fair and loving time.

And I just, because I love that musical, I think it's a great musical, and I love the story of Condide. And I thought, oh, this would be fun to do. It didn't happen. Do you, you must have, I mean, I know just among my brethren, many admirers, but also among filmmakers.

I know that the Wolkowski's recently hit you up and brought you into their bizarre universe. How did that happen? Part, the jibbler is sending that Matt Damon isn't playing. He was busy doing it. You're the second choice for Matt Damon. Yeah, yeah, I think so. It'll be Jason Bourne next time around.

Well, he is doing another one apparently, yes. Well, did you have much awareness of their work? Did they call it board again? Just not I mean they should. It was fun because the Wachowski's, I do think, are quite extraordinary filmmakers. Again, they've got interesting minds. Definitely. And they wrote this part. In their minds, it's a big.

bit of an homage to Brazil, so I'm this Clark behind the desk of this place. And it is the most shameless overacting I've ever seen. I'm really curious if it's still in the film. It does strike me that they are, I mean, the fact that they got Cloud Atlas made at the budget that they were able to. I loved it, and I know it has its fans and the tractors. It was a very divisive film. But we need more people like that. We need more people that are willing to go.

No, I know. And that's, but the problem is the money, it's the cost. I mean, they need a lot of money to do what they do. Jupiter said, I think, is a more normal film after Cloud Atlas. Because they kind of lick their wounds and felt, okay, you've got to play a bit safer. And that's the problem with large budgets. That's why, in the case of zero theorem, I mean, six years ago when the idea first came up, it was a $20 million film.

We made a grade in half. So for that, I have freedom. The problem is you don't then have a big studio with this huge outlay that they've got to get some money back and they'll put in $80 million to promote it. Right. And so that's why I'm talking to people like you. And I'm appreciative of that. Yeah, I mean, look, I remember years ago, like Tideland, which must have been a frustrating moment for you because you were out there literally like, what, at the Daily Show right on the line. Yeah, banking on the streets.

I'm shameless. I don't care. I mean, that was good fun because my daughter, because there was no ads, no posters. It was opening on the weekend, and so she convinced me to do something, I'd put it, I don't know if it's still on YouTube,

but I mounted the poster on a piece of old cardboard, and then wrote, studio-less film director, family to support, will direct for food. And then with a plastic cup and a few coins, and it went working the cue outside the John

Stewart show. And it was wonderful. I made $25. I was going to say you got eight and a half million to make zero theorem. Thank God. And so it's like, look at David Lynch. Same thing. The film directors who really are out there taking chances, we can only do it now with much, much smaller budgets on. And I mean, what I love about zero theorem, I look at that. Most people see it, what would say, oh, what did it cost? Oh, $25, $30 million. Exactly. Yeah. Now, eight and a half billion. And part of it is because people like Matt Tilda, David Thielder, Ben Wishaw, came at work for scale.

Right. So you rely on friends to help you through these things. And I don't know what Jim Jarmish's budgets are. They're very low. I mean, so who are the, the Coens have done very well, and I'm glad they have, because I love the Coens, I think. They're smart, and their work is always interesting. But there aren't many.

Have you seen Tusk? Yes. I'm curious. I just found out about it today. It is, I think it accomplishes what it sets out to do. I'll say that. No, I enjoyed it on some levels, but it is bizarre. And maybe one of Kevin's better films, I would say, actually.

You recently got together with the guys for these crazy performances of Monty Python. Was that something that, it sounded like there were different, everyone kind of went into it for maybe different reasons, or maybe same reasons. Money was involved. Well, money was important, but that, you know, some needed the money. Some of us didn't. But there was the group ethic. If a group is going to do something, you stick by. I was not interested in the show because I've got less to do than the others.

And I had plans for this year doing something else. But it worked out brilliantly, and it was actually great fun by the end. I mean, it was a ball because you've got 16,000 people who love you. Good for the ego. Yeah, and you come on stage and you follow it. your face, they love it. Oh, you forget the lines. They love it even more. It was fantastic. It was, and the surprising thing about it, we've built this beautiful and big stage in the arena, the O2, is vast. But it never felt it. It actually felt intimate because you could feel the,

you know, the audience, they really loved it. And you'd come out on the stage and do, get away with murder. In high school, you'd be thrown off. But here, it was beloved. Speaking of the stagework, have any of your films been adapted or has it been talked about in terms of adapting for the stage for musical or plays? Somebody who was talking about Brazil wanting to do an opera of it. But now, not really now. I mean, it was partly why for years I had been, people who had tried to get me to do opera because, you know, Munchaus in all these films, there's always a theater in there. It's theatrical. It's like that.

And it's only been in the last few years that I've done a couple operas. I don't even like opera. But they've been, unfortunately, hugely successful. I know, because it puts the, I still don't think I know how to do opera. But they worked. What about gaming, video games? Does that interest you? I keep thinking, why shouldn't I be doing video games?

Because this is the way my mind works. And world building. I mean, you create worlds, and that's what's so beautiful. But nobody's come knocking on my door, this door that is waiting to be knocked upon. People. Yeah, I know. No, I think video games, because I would love to do one where you're not shooting up everything, you know, things that are clever. Years ago, years ago when video games were CD-ROMs, the early days, and I did actually start designing a game.

I was with a company that went bust, but I was doing stuff that I see being done now. I mean, mine was always going to be more interesting. I mean, a couple of, I think it was a game made out of Holy Grail, which I'd never played. But I still think that would be fun to do because, yes, a chance to create a world and you can do things that are mind-bending and people can have fun doing it. You can really, as they say, fuck with their brains, sure.

I think part of the excitement, if there is any excitement in 2014 in our world, is that there are different platforms that are accessible to us, whether, I mean, like, I would think you can, you know, you can brainstorm an idea and then you can kind of see what path it goes down. Is it TV? Is it film? Is it gaming? There are different avenues when 20 years ago it was your singularly focused on film.

And I think the problem is now because things are so diffused now. Film is no longer the center of what we go to see. I really don't think so. I think like watching Breaking Bat, I love it because clearly they were taken by surprise. suddenly they got to write more stuff and they started playing and they got really clever

and it was and they ended beautifully he didn't save what I knew he was going to say yes anything but and my name is my middle name is Vance Vance Gilliam

Vince Gilligan I could have been A couple A couple letters difference I could have been rich and famous like Vince Gilligan And he's got Lots of doors.

He does, many doors. You have a few. Let's not go crazy here. So what is on the to-do list after you're finished talking this one? Is it both defective and to see where we're at with Keote? That's what we're playing with, yeah. And I think, I mean, it's this awful thing of going back to old things, but they're good things, and they've been lying dead.

And I think that's what I feel, you know, I hate wastage. I hate these scripts that we've written that have been. stuck in the bowels of a certain studio. Let's get it out and see if you can play with it again. Because it is, I really got to the point, I don't know what other than the things I've already tried to make and will continue to, what to do beyond that as a new idea. And I think is, I find each time I do a film,

it's really me sort of building my idea of what the world is, or at least an aspect of the world at any moment. I don't know what it is anymore. My wife says you've got to take a holiday. You've just got to get away from thinking about it, go out and experience something completely different and see where it goes. I keep looking at the Python animation

in the show at the Python show. And it was getting, in many reviews, it was getting the best comments because it still seemed to be surprising and fresh and new. That was done by another guy, same name, different guy. And I don't know if I get my brain working like that again. That had the advantage of having a show that existed.

You didn't have to sell anything. You had to fill up the time, the half hour, each show. And once you're in that situation, it's very different because if it came to going out now and tried to pitch something, I don't even know what they're looking for, what the world is out there in the world of cinema anymore. Do you ever feel that, like, your career has been compromised in any way by the fact that, like, left brain, right brain, you don't give a shit or you're not as good at the business side of things

as the creative side? It's a bit of both. I mean, the business side, I mean, time balance, I own 33% of it. I should be very rich. The company has gone into bankruptcy several times. And here's the great thing about companies. Their job is to bringing the money. and then share it out, those who own it.

And they all, when they go bankrupt, all the money goes to the banks and not to the guys who are the creditors. This happened three times down. So it's, and at a certain point, it happened in Jabberwock, you would, at the end, the producer made more money than I thought he should have made, and I didn't.

And I said, all right, I got to make the film. The film exists, that's what I'm really good at. The money is the cherry on the cable. and I didn't give the cherries up. I got what I wanted. I mean, you've never done a job for money. You've never done the money job, it seems. No, no, no.

It's just, I don't know how. Because I can only make a film if I really believe I'm doing something is worthwhile doing or interesting. I don't know how it, I'm not a director. That's the simple fact. I look at, what I said today, I look at Breaking Bad or the killing.

The work is really good. The directorial work is really good. The camera work. The characters, and it's very weird. When I started a film, I don't know how to do any of that. It is such a strange thing. And then I say, turn over and action and things start happening. And I kind of do know how to do something.

So what are you, if you're not a director? What would you, on the passport, on the immigration form, what do you put? I always said filmmaker. Okay. That's what, because I'm a filmmaker. I'm not a director. A director is a guy who can take any project and put it on the film. I can't do that.

Right. I thank you so much for your time today. Sir, five-year-old Josh Harrowitz, thanks you for setting him on a path of loving, crazy films, and Zero Theorem is the latest, and I encourage everybody to check it out. It's been such a pleasure to go down memory lane with you, sir. Thank you for this near-death experience. Good luck getting out of Times Square. Evade Bubba Gump, evade all the fast food places, and just get out of here.

You can't get a car anymore. They've blocked it off. Broadway has been cut in the middle, hasn't it? It's true. We might be here forever. Oh, no. I'm sorry. But the office is actually beautiful, and I am very comfortable in this lush lounge.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to them. They know. Thanks, sir. Thanks for your time. That's so much fun. That's so much fun. Goodbye, summer movies.

And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos and Bogonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement.

There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat too, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.