Happy Sad Confused - THE LAST OF US Season 2 Spoilers w/Craig Mazin

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

THE LAST OS US is finally back! And so is co-creator Craig Mazin to spill the secrets about the approach to season 2, casting of chharacters, and the future of the series. SPOILERS ahead if you don't know what happens in the THE LAST OF US 2! You've been warned. UPCOMING EVENTS! April 14th -- Bryce Dallas Howard In New York -- ⁠Tickets here!⁠ SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Quince.com/happysadco⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is my life. This is what I do. And I drive myself and everyone to make it as good as we can possibly make it. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm never going to tell you like, oh, except there's one episode's going on week one. We don't have weak ones. We don't do that as far as I'm concerned. Prepare your ears, humans.

Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh here. Welcome to another edition of Happy Set. confused. The Last of Us fans, this one is for you. We have Craig Mazen, showrunner, executive producer, co-creator, writer, director in the house for a spoiler special Get Ready. Okay, before we get to The Last of Us, very briefly, I'll remind you guys whether you're new to the podcast or not. The best place for all special access, bonus materials, etc., is Patreon. patreon.com slash happy, say, confused. I always mention it because it's important to keeping

the trains running, letting us make more and more special stuff for you guys. Check it out. We have price tiers at every level. We have autographed posters, bonus materials, early access, live events, tons of cool stuff. Patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. Okay. The business at hand is the last of us. And I will say many times on this episode, this is a spoiler special. If you have not seen the new episode, the premiere episode of season two of the last of Us. This is probably not the podcast for you. I'm warning you. Don't come yelling at me in the comments. Don't watch this unless you have seen episode one of the new season of The Last of Us. And we do get into spoiler content related to The Last of Us game, the Last of Us two game specifically.

And there are some major spoilers. So I do say within the conversation, spoilers ahead, but consider this spoiler alert red alarm bill should be going off okay don't yell at me the last of us spoilers are ahead for the show and yes for the game so be wary um this is a great conversation Craig came on the podcast about two years ago uh as the first season of the last of us was wrapping up and we had a great chat dig it up and it's it's on the youtube page check out the earlier conversation if you want because it's a it's a really cool deep dive into that season And this one is fantastic, too. Craig is one of the smartest writers out there.

And we talk about a lot here. We talk about the casting of everybody from Caitlin Dever and Jeffrey Wright reprising his role, Catherine O'Hara, as this new character, Isabella Merced, some key moments in episode one, some teases of episodes to come. What is in store for us this season? So if you're a Last of Us fan, you are going to enjoy this. Trust me. So I'm going to just get right to it.

Here is me and Craig Mazen. Last Blover warning. Don't listen or watch this. There, I said it. Unless you've seen episode one of The Last of Us. And by the way, we have more coming down the line as the season progresses with some actors, key actors in the show. So stay tuned to happy, say, and fuse for all of your Last of Us content.

All right, here is me and Craig Mason. Enjoy. Mr. Craig Mason, it's been two short years, and here we are again. You ready for this? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm still reeling from a grilling I got last time. I feel like it was one question away from having you admit to ordering the code red. It was that kind of thing. I really, you could tell I want to do.

well we'll try not to get you into trouble today you're too smart a man to fall from my silly questions but um congratulations man you must be feeling good um this is a spoiler podcast to the degree to which um uh the first episode is now out folks if you if you've not seen the first episode this is probably not the podcast for you so this is your final warning for that um so Craig first of all talk to me a little bit about just in general terms approaching this season. Lessons learned by what went over well, what was creatively satisfying for you, and how you applied them to approaching the second season, you think? I mean, anybody who doesn't learn a lot making season one of something has missed the boat. We learned so much. Now, a lot of what we learned was kind of practical stuff, how to go about portraying the infected, how to handle the size, of our show, the scheduling. And, you know, we get better things as we go, I think.

Certainly we had also the benefit of returning cast, Pedro Pascal and Della Ramsey, who understood their characters completely, and we weren't like, there's no sense of like, oh, how are we going to figure this all out? But I think also what Neil and I learned was to not change stuff, that generally speaking, our approach to how, to make the show worked. It worked for us, and it seemed to work really well for the audience,

really well, better than we expected. So going into the second season, we thought, okay, let's apply all the practical stuff we've learned, but let's not change any of the creative process. So when you start to really dive into the second game, which you were obviously already very well familiar with approaching the first season, did you find it more or less hard to adapt? What were the unique challenges, advantages of the second game? I think it was easier in the sense that we had done it already. So a lot of the challenges of adaptation is trying to figure out how connected you're going to be to the source material, when you're going to wander away, when you're going to do different things, almost importantly, when you don't want to do different

things, when you want to do it exactly the way it was in the source material. So we kind of have that so our general sense of how to adjust and move things around was pretty good um i love the story of the second game it's a much bigger game so that honestly the the biggest challenge for us was just figuring out how are we going to actually break this up across seasons because we don't have the capacity given the size of the show and how big these episodes get we don't have the capacity to do it all in one season um not unless people want to to wait 10 years for it. So part of it was, okay, let's go all the way to the end.

Let's figure out how we want to end. Now let's work back. And now let's figure out where that dotted line is, where it would seem acceptable to pause after season two and then welcome people back eventually for a subsequent season and maybe two. So when you guys, when you and Neil are getting into the writing process, what are the watchwords, what are the themes that you kept coming back to when you're writing these seven episodes?

What's the, what's the thematic through line to this first part of the second game, you think? For me, it may be different for Neil. But for me, I kept coming back to the idea of community and of the nature of us and them. And how important us is to us. It's in the title. But also, when we think of who we are, we think of ourselves in connection to people. It's very hard to define ourselves in isolation from our family, from the people we love,

from the people on our street, from the people in our country. We have these concentric circles of community, and our connection to others defines in many ways who we are. But for some people, that community has this darker flip side, which is an exclusivity. I feel deeply about the people in my community, which means I feel less deeply about the people that are not in my community. And who gets to be part of my community? And for some people, are they even capable of seeing a community larger than, say, themselves and one other person?

What happens to a parent, a new parent, when you have a child? I don't know if you have children. When I had a child, it suddenly became clear to me that my community had changed. dramatically. And that this person was now the most important member of my community. If I don't do my job, they die. And better, if I do my job well, they might flourish. But protecting them becomes this extraordinary aspect of who you are, often to the exclusion of other people. And we saw Joel do that at the end of episode one. Now the question is, how does Ellie handle being part of a community, especially when her community really is boiled down to her and Joel.

One of the fun parts about this season is seeing how it expands to include Dina, who is such an important part of how this all goes. When you look now holistically at these seven episodes, this is a sadder season? Is this an angrier season? What are the adjectives to describe emotionally what you feel reading or watching these episodes? well it's hard you know our show has has a history now of a season where there's a lot of sad things i mean we start with a child dying yeah and then about 10 minutes later another child dies um right and then a few episodes later another child dies we we have we certainly don't

shy away from the tough aspects of life but i will say that this season while it does feature tragedy also I think has a lot more comedy to it a lot more humor just because of the nature of Ellie and Dean's relationship and how they function together and the fact that Ellie's older now there's this kind of slightly more grown-up wisdom going on there and certainly this season features some intense action and the scope of it has dramatically. Okay.

So let's start to talk about where we find these characters at the outset. So obviously five years have passed and look, I think I can only imagine, you know, the discussions with Bella in terms of like how to approach the passage of time because she's changed a lot, Ellie, in these five years. And that's striking from the first moments we see her in episode one. And I assume it's no coincidence that you want to like physically show just where she's at and how aggressive she is and how just her temperament, her physicality. What was the task at hand?

Like, what did you talk to Bella about in terms of approaching the LA we see in season two? Well, Bella was a, when we started at the, they were a 17-year-old playing a 14-year-old. And when we got to this season, they were basically a 19-year-old playing a 19-year-old. And so it's already there. And also, I've had a front seat watching Bella grow up. And those years, I mean, now they're 21. So 17 to 21, the change is dramatic.

It's an extraordinary change for almost everyone. For me, four years goes by and like I said, my back hurts a little bit more, but otherwise, you know, I'm done. But I just said to Bella, all these things that you're, feeling in your own mind about figuring out who you are and finding independence but also struggling with the detachment that kind of comes along with that all those things are part of this but really um the most important thing for both of us was to show ellie's maturity through the lens of relationship so it's not so much about here's an

index card of things that 19-year-old Ellie thinks and does differently than 14-year-old Ellie. But rather, what does your growth mean for your relationship with Joel? What is your growth mean for your relationship with Dina? What is your growth mean for your relationship with the entire town? And the world. Who do you think you are and who do you want to be? These are the problems that 19-year-olds face. The physicality of it was also important to address because there is in the game there's actually a rather dramatic physical transformation for ellie which is honestly not super common really when you look at like girls who are 14 and girls who are 19 it's not a dramatic difference whereas boys it often is um and for bella i just

thought like okay that's not that's not what this is about but what i do want to address is how Ellie handles herself physically in a dangerous world with what she's got. Because we try and be as grounded as we can. So part of the question I wanted to explore was, okay, this is your size. You're small. You're going to be small forever. How do you fight? How does a small person fight a big person?

And so Ellie trains. And she trains very specifically for that. I think is really interesting. So you talk about, yeah, that transition for a young person going from, you know, 17 to 21, which is obviously, yes, an important period in their life. And also, like, and we discussed this. I discussed this with you. I discussed this with Bella two years ago.

What they went through off camera was a lot, too. And all the attention and criticisms and division, et cetera. You must feel very protective because you kind of helped. I mean, this is a great opportunity you've given Bella. but it's also come with some baggage. Oh, yeah. How have you, I don't know, has that, like, how have you been a rock or help? Can you be a help in that way as a friend and collaborator to Bella navigating all of this?

I do my best. I mean, I will tell you it's not just a sense of protection. I'm extraordinarily protective of Bella. Then again, I'm extraordinarily protective of the entire cast because I care about them very much. But Bella in particular, because of their. age when they arrived, because of my unique relationship with her, it is a very Joel Ellie kind of thing that we've got, you know? There were times where it felt like, you know, we were this weird community of two. But there's, there is also, I don't want to say guilt,

but concern. I did say to Bella and her parents when we made the original casting decision. I said, look, there is a world where nobody cares about the show and it just disappears. I don't think that's what's going to happen. I think there's going to be a lot of attention. And I think there's going to be a lot of attention on casting and a lot of attention on all of it. And some of it will be negative because that's how attention works in our world. And I said, I want you guys to be aware of it before you say yes. And I will do everything I can.

I know HBO, oh, we'll do everything we can. But in the end, it's nothing we can control. Be aware that it's there. It's the same thing that we said to Pedro. It's the same thing we said to Caitlin. It's the same thing we said to Isabella. Anyone we cast. We just prepared them and we say, it is okay.

Before we get going for you to go, thank you for offering me the gig. I actually don't want that heat. I'm going to go do something else. I'm obviously thrilled that Bella said, yes. and getting to know them as I have, it's not surprising. There is a fearlessness there that is kind of off the charts. But I still worry, like a dad would worry. I don't get angry when people criticize me.

I don't get angry when people criticize the show because it's a huge show with an enormous viewership. of course there are going to be people who disagree or or and then there are just people who just they don't watch a show they just don't like the idea of it and that's fine I I'm a I'm a supporter of that I believe people should be allowed to hate stuff it's when they hate people who are in stuff that it can be tough and again I don't mind people want to take swings at me I that's fine I I've said to Neil you know that they're not taking swings at you Neil they're taking swings at this person they think you are they're taking swings at this idea of who you are

they don't know you so they're talking about this other guy that's not like a real guy um and i've said these things to belitude but i i wish i could make that stuff go away i can't um so i i just give as much support as i can and i also remind everybody who works on the show that somewhere around, I don't know what it was like, 35 million people in the United States alone, on average, watched each episode of the first season, just in the United States. And then around the world, you're talking upwards of 70, 80 million people, something like that. If 50,000 people go online and say something, that's still not a numerically significant number. Right.

So I just remind them there's this enormous love out there for things. Don't get distracted by, you know, the prominence of some negativity. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from the league, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, musts season, and in case you missed them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast,

and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat, too,

and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Let's talk a little bit about Pedro and Bella, and they obviously have a beautiful relationship off screen, and then seeing this relationship, this fractured relationship in the first episode, it breaks your heart, and Pedro is really good at breaking your heart.

Like, this is a guy that just wants to connect. and just doesn't know what to do. Just talk to me about what you saw in Pedro's performance in this first episode and how much is said without saying anything very often and conveying what's happened that we haven't seen even in those past five years just through his sheer physicality.

Well, there's a little bit of a mystery here as to what's gone wrong. Because it's not like, I mean, the very first inkling we have of this is when Jesse mentions Joel's name and Ellie's face darkens. The next mention we have of it is Dina saying to Joel, why is she angry at you? So she doesn't know, which means no one knows.

Which means it's not like Ellie's been walking around saying, I figured it out, you lied to me, or whatever it could have possible. We just don't know what it is. And what I love about Pedro's performance, especially in his scene with Gail, is that it becomes clear that he's hoping that the answer to the mystery is something very mundane and fixable and yet deep down I think he's becoming increasingly aware that's not what it is that it is absolutely connected to how things ended in season one and and you think it's

heartbreaking now. There's a tease. There's a tease. All right, let's start to talk about some of the new casting here. I mean, let's start with Caitlin.

I just adore Caitlin Deber. Did before the show, I will, after the show. And, you know, if you weren't sold on her bringing a new side of her to Abby, her, you know,

saying, when we kill him, we kill him slowly, we'll send shivers down your spot. Clint Eastwood somehow got into her body. The story of her casting goes way back. Look, we know that way back when she was considered for Ellie. I guess when did you guys, when did you and Neil start to talk about her seriously as Abby? As we started to pull into the station on season one and I think

because HBO happily puts an episode out each week, which is the way it ought to be. What that means is that for the final episodes, we're usually still doing our final mixing and stuff as the show is running. So we debuted on January 15th, and around mid-February, late February, we finally were like, okay, we're done. Let's just start having some very preliminary vague conversations about how we're going to address the next season. And of course, the first question was, who's going to be Abby? And we talked a lot about, I mean, there's a lot of questions to ask. How do we want to portray her?

What's important to us? What isn't as important? And we make our lists. And we were working with Mary Vernue, our casting director, who's brilliant. And, you know, we all do. It's like one of those things where casting is really difficult, but when we all look at something and we all point to the same name together, you can, you can inquire. wire afterwards. Why is it? But sometimes the best thing is to just follow your instinct there anyway. You can do the analysis later, but it just seemed absolutely correct to us,

especially given how we wanted to portray Abby and the fact that we have opportunities to dig a little deeper on these characters. Whether it's this season or subsequent seasons, we know that Caitlin needed to both be an integral part of this season, but also represent quite a bit of the future of the show as well. Well, yeah. I look. And again, we're getting into kind of spoiler territory. I think most people that have watched or watching this probably know the games. So again, spoiler warning. But like, this is a character that sensibly kind of goes from antagonists to protagonists. And that's, I mean, the perspective shift is part of the game and part of the story. Can you talk about that, again, the unique challenges for an actress like Caitlin and what you're trying to establish with this character through this first set of episodes. Well, I think for probably any actor, they're always in their mind portraying a protagonist of some kind. But this idea of, are you the hero, are you the villain? How are we supposed to feel about it is pervasive, but it's always been there.

Even going back to, you know, watching Ellie in the seller of that. convenience store in season one sort of weirdly slightly torturing this trapped infected person there's something dark there there's also i mean joel beats a man to death with his fists and we may say oh yeah cool because you're a hero except like no but he was not in control of himself that was uncontrolled fatal violence um there are are aspects and watching him walk through that hospital at the end of the first season, you could certainly be rooting for him. You could also easily be rooting against him, depending on your point of view. We play around with the, it's not even a question of sometimes you're the

hero and sometimes you're the villain. The real question we keep asking is, is that a thing? It's a thing in narrative, but is it really a thing for people? Or is that part of the struggle? part of the struggle is figuring out whether or not you are doing the right thing and casting somebody like Caitlin gets you 75% of the way there because I think we have a natural connection to everyone she plays everyone I mean she's playing kind of a villain right now in Applesite O'Riniger and you just connect to her anyway yeah what she does and I'm sure that That's going to be the excitement for you as folks start to see these episodes is like we naturally connect to her because she just has this spirit that has this, for lack of a better term, likeability. And as she does some things, presumably, to test the audience's loyalty, it's going to be interesting to see if they go with her.

I mean, we certainly know from the very first scene of, I guess, the very first new scene of this season because we do a little, you know, a little pick, make the coat of the purpose. prolog this time, but we understand that she's got a case. Right. I mean, from her point of view, that show, if we start a show like that, then that's a show about someone who's been deeply wronged, who deserves justice, and yet perhaps is getting lost in the pursuit of it. I mean, you can tell right off the bat, and this is why it's. the people that are with her that are playing these characters, Owen and Mel and Nora and Manny are so important because you can see that they agree with her on an intellectual basis.

They love her. They want to support her. They're not exactly like her. There is this reluctance there. And that is going to get developed further as we go. casting Catherine O'Hara is always a good idea, generally, in film and TV. He can do it and do it. Do it. If you have the opportunity, do that thing. So her character, though, is new in a sense. I mean, she has connections. So she is Eugene's wife, correct? Yes.

Played by Joe Panteliana, who we have not seen yet. Right. So this is a case, presumably, like you did have success. You've talked about being faithful to the game and having that fidelity. but you did have success last season with some expansion of some characters and this is a case where you saw an opportunity clearly. Presumably we're going to see some flashbacks

of this relationship as the season goes on. I mean, if we didn't, that might be weird. It might be weird. Show Joe Pantiliano dead for an episode doesn't feel right. That'd be weird. Yeah. But, I mean, her function as a character

as a sounding board for Joel, but there's something. more there that you found an opportunity to explore. I do. I think that the more you can enmesh people in the difficulties that we keep putting forth thematically of this idea of community and how we need and yet also can hurt each other is so important. You can have a character that is a therapist who sits and listens and then that's that. And they're there to handle some exposition and maybe get a character to talk about themselves. But we like whenever we can to turn inward to the source material.

So in this case, the character of Eugene was somebody you never met in the second game, but he was referred to, sort of obliquely with notes and people talking about him. He sounded like a great guy. And in thinking about how to integrate this character to the community, so it wasn't just oh and now here's a person that that connection became important but only to the extent that Gail's relationship with Eugene

and Eugene's existence in the story are both absolutely pivotal to what happens between Joel and Ellie and it will all become clear as long as you keep watching the show if you don't watch a show you'll never know I didn't need more incentive but there is. So you're not going to answer this, but is there going to be a bottle episode, as it were,

like we had last season? I won't answer that, but I will say, and I have said before, that while we didn't, I think we avoided the pretty obvious trap of saying, hey, we did that Frank and Bill episode. People really love that. Let's just do that again. We didn't fall into that trap, but there is an episode where we do shrink our focus down quite a bit. And in a show like this where we can get really big and the canvas gets super wide and enormous and we're ending up in different places and meeting different factions and groups and a lot of mystery, it is good sometimes to just narrow down and get to the nitty gritty between two people, particularly two people we care a lot about. So you pivoted away from spores last season. Spores will factor into this season. How much?

Enough. Was that because of, again, narratively in the game, there are obviously some key sequences that would seem to be assisted by that as a device? Sort of. And that's not to say that we use it narratively exactly the way it was in the game. we are always looking ahead. I believe that when you arrive at some pretty dark moments in our story, the things that make them dark should feel like they have been present and growing all along,

not just suddenly there. The spores were something that I think we correctly limited in the first season. because we were learning how the outbreak functioned and we were trying to figure out, okay, what does the world look like 20 years later? And the way spores are used in the game, if we had done it, I think, for live action television, it would have forced a lot of uncomfortable questions. Like, how is everyone still alive? And why aren't you all wearing gas masks all the time?

But the way we introduce sports here has a story function. it is connected in fact to a relationship as we always do and for people who do know the story of the game when they see how the sports function here and we do introduce a kind of new how should I say origin of the spores in a way when you see how it is you might think I see how this is going to get worse maybe as seasons go on, it is connected to something that matters. Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom.

Well, big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth-shaking. Heartbeat sound effect, big. Mink is back. That's right. After a brief snack nap. We're coming back. We're picking snacks.

We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back. Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us.

It's ticklish business anywhere you look at it. Come on, we'll stick together. Love movies? Love classic movies? So do we. Ticklish Business is the podcast where classic film is discussed in modern times. Hosted by me, film here with Kristen Lopez. and my co-host, author Emily Edwards,

we dive into the golden age of cinema with fun, heart, and serious expertise. As published film historians and lifelong classic movie buffs, we bring insider insights, deep research, and lively debates with a variety of special guests, ranging from celebrities like Holly Madison,

to TCM luminaries Dave Carger and Eddie Muller, and even family members of Old Hollywood Legends. Subscribe now to ticklish business on your favorite podcast app, and let's talk about Old Hollywood today. Do you already know in your heart of hearts like what moments, where you did diverge a bit for good reasons? And I know, again, you've said over and over how important it is that fidelity to the game is important. It's, it's, it's all, are we the most important thing?

But you do diverge. Do you know what's going to get the fans up in arms this season? Are you, are you stealing yourself for the moment? I don't think there's, I don't think there's anything that's, certainly designed to get anybody up at home. No, yeah, yeah. I think generally speaking, we did a pretty

good job in season one kind of really because I am the fan, right? Right, right. So I feel like I'm in tune with the thick middle of fanning, because I'm one of them. Right. It's not to say that because you get a bunch of The Last of Us fans together, there's going to be

some disagreement amongst them about what you want to see the same, what's different. There were people that were really they liked the Bill and Frank episode. They were just bummed out that they didn't get to see Bill interacting with Joel and Ellie because they love that from the game and I get that.

I do. So sometimes you gain something and you lose something and that's part of it. I think the things that we pull through are good and correct. Where we do them, how we do them, often different.

Fans will debate these things. in part because I think it's fun. I think it's fun to debate this stuff. I think it's fun to dig in. But ultimately, we design the show to be experienced in and of itself, not as the centerpiece of a larger debate, but rather just as a story. Right.

And hopefully people do come to it just honestly as a story. I do believe most of the audience does, but I would never, ever deny anyone a good Reddit debate about it. we should have done this or this. That is your God-given birthright as a thing. So Pedro Pascal is the busiest man in show business. He's the James Brown of our time. He's got a lot of jobs.

Did his availability at all dictate narrative choices for the season? No, it didn't dictate any narrative choices for the season, but it did dictate our schedule quite a bit. So we had to do things kind of. in some weird orders and we just, our schedule was really tough. It wasn't, and I don't want to put this just at like Pedro's feet, it was also Isabella's schedule too, because Pedro was working on Fantastic Four for some amount of time, but it was also like, you know, not continuous, right? So we're like sharing, we're all sharing Pedro. There's a whole group of people sharing Pedro.

we shared him with Celine Song, who was making a new film, 24, and we were also sharing Isabella Merced with D.C. He's gone. Yep, of course. Yeah, because they're making Superman, and she's hot girl. Or though, as we like, for whatever reason when she told me she was hot girl, I thought she said, she said, hot girl, and I thought her character was hot girl. So we've been calling her, like, so how's it going with hot girl?

And she goes, hot girls? Like, she's got, like, her power is being hot. It's like a legitimate superpower. Hey. So she was being hot girl and Pedro's being Mr. Stretchy and, you know, we got to, like, we have to share. It is, there is this weird community of production managers who are mastering the schedules of things. Right. All kind of try and take care of each other because they're all in the same spot.

But there was some, yeah, there was. There were some tricky weeks and things where we just had to figure it all out and make it work, but we did. We didn't change anything because of that. Okay. All right. I'm going to say it again, just to say it out loud. Super spoilers. If you haven't played the second game, get away.

So, again, I know you're not going to answer this. I'm not going to ask you the same question. I asked you last season when and if it happens in terms of Joel's death. But I guess my question is, what? Oh, no. I'm sorry. No one told you. if it happens right if it happens i believe this is exactly what happened last time where i said

i'm not going to even credit the premise of your question okay so let's let's get i didn't even ask a question for the record um or your statement is jol's presence felt throughout this entire season even if god forbid we lose his physical presence very soon anybody who has a central role the story and drives the central relationship of the story will always permeate everything um i remember talking to nico parker about her part as sarah and i said look you're in you know about 25 minutes of this show you will be in 25 minutes of the entire length of the entire series if we go all the way to the end right and it hangs over everything right right everything this stuff matters Ellie's time with Riley occurs inside of one episode

it hangs over Ellie all the time which is why I was so important that Storm read come in and do such a beautiful job just as Nico did and lo and behold they're you know both widely celebrated for those parts and Storm got an Emmy anybody in our story who matters should be hanging over things I I think Marlene is hanging over things. I think Ashley Johnson's character, who's in eight minutes of the series, really hangs over things. Actually, because she hangs over things, we made an interesting choice in that regard, which you'll see as the season goes on. But I think it's safe to say that in a show where people are constantly appearing and dying, every death needs to matter.

and the way it matters is not what it does to us at home. The way it matters is what it does to the people who survive it inside that story and how it drives them. Do you have a favorite episode this season? I love them all. They're all of my kids. There is an episode this season that is, I think, a pretty remarkable achievement of production and storytelling, visual effects, practical effects, everything.

I think we're all, now that it's done, we all sort of look at it and go, how did we pull that off? And once that one airs, you know, happy to talk all about that. There are, however, things in every episode that I just find great and we I mean we all of us I can only speak from myself I pour myself into this thing completely this is my this is my life this is what I do and I drive myself and everyone to make it as good as we can possibly make it yeah and so yeah I'm never going to tell you, like, oh, except there's one episode's coming on week one. We don't have weak ones. We don't know that as far as I'm concerned.

Are they all roughly the same running time? Do you have like a 90-minute episode in there? Are they all about an hour? No 90-minute episode. That was kind of a special kickoff, you know, for season one. And really, that 90-minute episode was initially intended to be two episodes. And Casey Blase, who runs HBO, very wisely suggested, I think, really get to a place where people will be married to this you're going to want to give them

this much um no the the episodes this season are all roughly you know good old fashion you know 55 minute long times um but there like i said there is there are a few episodes where how should i put it i'd like to think that we do more with our 55 minutes than a lot of other people do right um but by now you must have in your head how many more episodes you'd ideally like to finish out this story like no not not not as such i i have a sense of how i have a sense of how much roughly needs to be done but the episode count is a little tricky because as we proceed forth in the story there are some opportunities to explore some additional things. I think the opportunities to go beyond the scope of the source material starts to expand, actually,

as you get deeper in, not because we are deeper in, but because of the nature of where the rest of that story occurs and how it occurs. So I have a general sense of, like, the things that I know need to happen. I have a general sense of the stuff I want to happen. But I can't tell you, okay, what we're looking at is, two more seasons of seven and eight or one more season of 12 or anything like that. I don't have that down yet. That's what Neil and I and Halley are about to sit down and mulch through now that we're

pulling into the station on season two. Okay. We only have a few minutes left, but we didn't mention a couple. We mentioned Isabella a little bit, but I should say like Dina, oh my God. Like what a, the spirit of Isabella, who I know a bit off screen too, is just such a, what a charismatic, amazing performer. and it's a real new energy to feel in this show and really a welcome energy to diffuse the weight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we haven't seen the great Jeffrey Wright yet. And one of the more you will. So obviously this is big reprising Isaac. Again, early on, you and Neil, if we get this far, we got to go to Jeffrey. Like, if you can get Jeffrey right, you get Jeffrey right. Absolutely. And, you know, our general feeling was like, we love looking back at the cast of the game.

There are, most of the actors are not, they're not good fits for casting for live action because their age is different. Or really, what it comes down to mostly is the age. So, you know, like, we can have Ashley Johnson playing 14-year-old Ellie. Right. She's a woman in her 30s. That's not going to work. But when we could, I mean, there was like, okay, well, Marlene can absolutely be played by Merle Dandridge. And Isaac can absolutely be played by Jeffrey Wright. So now the question is, hey, Jeffrey, you want to play?

And we sent him what we were working on. There's the scene, there is a scene that happens in this season with Jeffrey that is not in the game. It is unique to our show that I think is. man all i'll say is this if you have a jeffrey right you use a jeffrey right and and there will be more there will be more jeffrey right to come

yeah wait i can't wait did uh did phoebe wall bridge got a cameo did she get on set any celebrity cameos this season despite the fact that she said she was willing to play a shrub uh her schedule unfortunately I know. I was talking with her the other day and she's excited to see the next season. Yeah, I mean, that's, you never know.

You never know. Listen. Down the line, I may need an incredibly charismatic shrub. And just in terms of gameplay on and offset, Is there a rule that you set for your actors? Do you say, like, leave the game behind or what? It's a rule like the way I tell my kids, don't use your iPhone after this time. I know they're going to. So really would, you know, Neil and I thought it was important to at least give the actors permission to not play the game,

to at least say, look, you don't have to play this to then emulate or reproduce somebody else's performance. You get a chance to come to, you have these scripts. you be this occupy this space as you would naturally. And they all said absolutely, and then they all absolutely either played the game or watched it because, you know, they were curious. But I give them a lot of credit that none of them ever did anything that I thought was self-limiting or duplicating someone else's performance.

They're all too good and too smart for that. Yeah, but they all, they all know. I mean, Caitlin, Caitlin and her dad are like super into the last of us, the games. I mean, they're all right. So how soon will I cry and how many times will I cry this season? I'm not going to say how soon you'll cry. And I don't know if you're a big cry or not.

I can tell you how many times I cry a lot. And I've watched the show over and over and over Sometimes there are moments that make me cry When the sound is in Yunnan There are some pretty beautiful moments I think the ones that get me the most Aren't the ones that are sad As much as connected

Yeah Yeah, no there's Get the Kleenex nearby I think that's a reasonable thing to do I'm ready. We're all ready. I'm so thrilled that you came back, man. Congratulations on. I know this was a huge undertaking. The first season one as well, but this one, probably even bigger. I would imagine in many respects. So congrats. The first episode is awesome. And hopefully we can connect as the season continues, man. If you think that one's awesome, then you're going to be pleased because that one's just the appetizer. Excellent. I'm glad you dug it. Thank you, friend.

And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance,

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