Happy Sad Confused - THE MATRIX reunion with Laurence Fishburne & Joe Pantoliano

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Are you ready to enter THE MATRIX?! We've got Laurence Fishburne (Morpheus) and Joe Pantoliano (Cypher) on this episode reminiscing about the film that blew our minds and changed how movies are made forever! UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Do you have, you must have had innumerable fan encounters over the years. Do any stick out for you? I always get red pill or blue pill. Like that's, people think that's, they think they're saying hello to me when they say it. I realize that's what that means from them. And I'm kind of like, well, it's always a purple pill day, isn't it? There it is. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Are you guys ready to enter The Matrix? Oh, yeah.

Here we go, guys. Lawrence Fishburn, Joe Panteliano, on a very special, happy, sad, confused, recorded at New York Comic-Con. Thanks, guys, as I always, for checking out the podcast. A really cool one today, if you're a nerd like me,

if you're somewhat in my age range, or truly any generation, we've all come to know and love and appreciate The Matrix. This one is for you. This is another episode we did live on stage at New York Comic-Con in front of 3,000 or 4,000 people.

Lawrence Fishburn, Morpheus himself, Joe Pantleano, Joey Pants, Cipher himself, came together to talk about the Matrix. What a treat. What a treat to be able to talk about a movie, a series that means so much to me and so many other people. What a great conversation.

I'm so excited to share this with you guys. I'll remind you before we get into the main event. As always, patreon.com slash happy, say I confused. That's where you get the early access, the bonus content, the merch, the upcoming events. Patreon.com. If you like what I do, check it out. Lots of different tier levels for any price point. Support us over there so we can make more stuff over.

here. Okay, not much more preamble. What more can I say about these legends? Fishburn, by the way, is just the real deal. Never done the podcast. We need to get him solo one of these days because what a career. But to deep dive with him about this kind of stuff is really special because he lives and breathes it. As you'll hear in the conversation, he grew up loving Star Trek and Star Wars and comics and all of it and to see the space he now occupies in that's in that world in these worlds so cool and joey pants pantiliano one of like one of the great new york character actor i mean such a character um such a treat to talk to both of them and uh the audience ate this up i ate this up and you're about to eat this up uh enjoy this live event taped in new york comic con joe pantleano

and Lawrence Fishburn talking, The Matrix. Enjoy. Hey, Comic-Con, are you ready for one more panel in the Empire stage, guys? Come on! We are finishing very strong. My name is Josh Horowitz. I host a podcast called Happy, Say I Confused. As I said, we're ending with a bang, guys.

I'm so damn excited for this one. Are you ready to re-enter The Matrix with me? Come on. If you're like me, there was before you saw The Matrix, and then there was after you saw the Matrix. It blew all of our brains out. It was amazing. The Wachowski's and this amazing ensemble, and we have two absolute legends.

Their resumes are historic and what they contributed in The Matrix, unbelievable. I'm not going to waste any time, because you want to hear them speak, you want to see them on this stage. Please give a warm New York Comic-Con welcome to Laurence Bishops. Everybody and Joe Pantaliano. New York City, what's happening? Good to be home. You feel the love? This is a nice thing.

25 plus years later, they're still committed to the cause. That's kind of crazy, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of sick. Look at the Matrix stuff here. I know. You did that for us? Just for you. Ah, wow.

Guys, what's the Comic-Con experience for you guys? Have you guys been to things like this before, or are we kind of, like, exposing you to... Never this size. This is extraordinary size and venue. And also, I'm from Hoboken so I can see my house from here. It's only my second con. They can feel welcome, guys. Only a second time.

Lawrence Fishburne. Yeah, you want him to come back. It's really nice. Thank you. It's really beautiful. Before we get into The Matrix, I'd love to just talk a little bit about your influences in the Comic-Con space. I know a little bit of your background, Lawrence.

You've talked about this. You grew up with this stuff. Like, you were in it. Give me a sense. of what you were into as a kid. I was into Marvel Comics and DC Comics and Dark Horse Comics. I was into science fiction and, you know, Star Trek, Star Wars, a boy with his dog. I mean, you know, Doctor Who, Space 1999, like, yeah.

The real stuff, yeah. And your resume, it must boggle the kid in you to look at your resume from, you know, Perry White, Ant-Man, the John Wick films, the witch are coming soon. I mean, it goes on and on, man. Mostly, I mean, here, what's been great is, like, all the stuff that people have brought that shit I haven't seen before. Yeah.

That's just been, like, so exciting. Like, one guy brought, like, a Superman poster, a Man of Steel poster. I've never seen before that was just, like, pristine. I was like, see, if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I'd be, like, laying for him in a dark alley somewhere. so I could steal it, you know. Do you have a collection of your own, whether from your own stuff or...

Yeah, I have a collection of comics. I still have my comics from the 70s. I have, you know, action figures. I have a lot of stuff. The sideshow guys have been really nice to me. Like, they send me some really cool stuff. So I have a nice collection in L.A. Probably a few action figures of yourself that you've got.

Probably have some of myself, but mostly my favorites are like Silver Surfer and like The Flash. and, you know, stuff like that. I have a great big Galactus, too. He's about, like, that big. Little guy. Yeah, a little guy. Joe, for you, this part of your world growing up?

I mean, you found yourself into a bunch of these things, too, obviously. I come for the money. Spoken like a true actor. No idea of comic books. It was too good. I didn't learn how to read until I was 19, so I liked the pictures. The pictures are good. That was the thing.

You didn't have to learn. You didn't have to know how to read to follow along, you know. It's great that way. Okay, so 25 plus years later, is the Matrix like a daily part of your lives? How often do you get fans wanting to talk to you about the Matrix, the quotes, seeing it in pop culture? Does it feel like part of your daily or at least weekly life to this day, to some degree? Well, it certainly changed our lives. And, I mean, yeah, it's every day, anytime, you know, most people,

you know, for me anyway, it's like I think that Morpheus is probably the character I'll be best remembered for. For you, Joe, does it feel like, I mean, did it change the course of your career? I mean, you obviously were working a lot prior, you've worked a lot since, but is that a demarcation point in some ways? Sure, I mean, you know, it was the first time I'd ever been on a poster. You know, I'm a journeyman character actor, and to be on this poster, on this most important movie that was, when we were making it, I knew that it was different and had an opportunity, but it was well, and I don't mean this modestly. It was just way beyond my ability to grasp what they were trying to say and seeing

the storybooks and all of that. And we shot all the Matrix stuff first. never had the benefit of seeing the Nebuchadnezzar until we started shooting on the Nebuchadnezzar. And I'm like, oh, my God. It was, it was just, and also we had so much fun living in Australia for six, six months. Yeah, it does feel like that Warner Brothers kind of like let the Wachowski's play and didn't pay attention and just let them, let their freak flag fly. Yeah, it was weird because it was like being on the most.

It was like the most expensive independent movie ever made. They gave us $50 million. They sent us to the other side of the world, and they didn't bother us at all. They let them just do what they were going to do. So let's back up a second, because I'm curious, like, the origins of the Matrix, at least where you guys come into play. Joe, you'd worked with them unbound, so you knew their talent, which, if you haven't seen a great, an amazing first film that really demonstrates what they can do with a camera and how just...

Well, it was an idea. piece. You know, they made that movie so they could show the studio that they had the capacity because they hired the DP and the editor. That was the team, if you say yes. So it really was their auditioned to be able to get them to let them direct the movie. So you've worked with first-time filmmakers, you've worked with veterans. Did it strike you even on that set, like, oh, these folks, they've got the chops, they've got ambition, they know what they're doing? They knew what they wanted.

I mean, in terms of communication, what I loved about them is that back then is they were kind of like karaoke performers. They just demonstrated, you know, like larger-than-life characters with the sound effects. And then you do this, you do that. And I thought that was very charming and cute and, you know, an indication that they knew what the fuck they wanted. But I, you know, it was also, for me, to work with Fishburn, who I'd gotten to know a little bit, and Keanu and Carrie Ann,

and then all of these wonderful Australian and New Zealand actors, it was, I was totally a fish out of the water there, but it was happening fast, and they were breaking a lot of things, and it was cool. So for casting you, Lawrence, I mean, there's a lot of lore about, like the different casting permutations, you know, Will Smith turned it down. There was talk about Val Kilmer. There's a long list of people they thought of or not. Were you away, like, what was your interaction with them? Did it come as a script? Did you have to audition? How did you enter the matrix? I read the script. My agents were tracking it.

I read the script and I immediately knew it was the most original thing that I had ever read and that I wanted to be a part of it. And then I met them in Vegas. We were there. You were there. I set it up, yeah. So Joe set this thing up. We were at one of the fights, right? It was the one when Tyson bit off.

It was the bite. Yeah. The bite fight. Met the Wichowski's. Lana, who was then Larry, said, oh, when I was writing this, I heard your voice in my head, and da-da-da-da-da. And then I went, met with them again. And I said, what do you guys want to do?

We want to make a Japanese anime live. And I was like, oh yeah, put me down. You're speaking my language. I think I scared the shit out of them. They weren't ready. And then, you know, we went to work. We went to Australia. We trained, you know, the whole thing.

We're not going to gloss over that. We're going to talk about that a little bit more. But for you, Joe, like, obviously, again, you'd worked with them before. Had they on set of bound, like mentioned, oh, we're cooking up this thing, maybe we're thinking of you? Or like, how did it manifest that you entered this one? They mentioned that they were, you know, there was, they were hoping to be able to direct this movie.

They'd had bad luck with screenplays that they had sold and then it was given off. That's kind of like happens for a lot of filmmakers. They get their voice, they decide that they've got it directed. And they did mention that there was a part in this thing, if they get to direct it, that they would like me to do. Yeah, I'll never forget, on a personal note, I was doing my college radio show inbound, came out, and I had the Wachowski's on, and I'll never forget asking them what's next. And I have this tape, and they're like, well, we've written the script for Plastic Man, and we're also trying to do this sci-fi thing. We'll see if it comes together.

Flash forward, The Matrix. unbelievable. I've got to say it's a very short story. Carrie Ann has a dinner. They're all doing their wire work and they work in Hugo and Keanu and Lawrence and Carrie Ann had a little house in L.A., and she made a dinner

and I'm there and the Wachowski's are there and they told me that the studio wanted to cut the steak scene and that Kiano was Kiano's favorite scene and he was really fighting for the steak scene. And I said, you know, offhandedly,

But, you know, the guy's in the whole fucking movie. What's he worried about one little scene? Right? So then I knew this story. So I go to Keanu that we're all eating, you know, sitting on couches and eating plates. I don't know if you remember this. And I said to Keanu, you know, we're going to be great in the steak scene.

I'm so glad it's back in the movie. And you could hear a pin drop, right? And Hugo goes, I'm in that scene, mate. Right. And the Kaczywski's fall down on the floor. floor, they're crying, laughing, right? And everybody's looking at me like I got two heads, and they're going,

he hasn't read the script. Do you remember that? They never let me in on the jokes, Joe. You remember. So what did you guys, what did you make of Morpheus? I mean, the stature of this character. I mean, he is, you know, it's a challenging character in a thousand

different ways. Like, it's a lot of, like, exposition. You kind of have to get out there. You're kind of like this mentor figure. Did you have a beat on who he was, on how to approach him right from the start? So, for me, Morpheus is, you know, just like story-wise, he's the dark mentor and the light mentor combined. Because usually, you know, like Star Wars, right? So Vader is the dark mentor.

Obi-Wan is the light mentor. What's great about Morpheus for me is he's both. And it was just a matter of understanding that. You know, he's the dark mentor as Morpheus in the matrix, but in the real world, he's the light mentor. So for me it was just like, I took a little bit of Rod Serling, I took a little bit of Leonard Nimoy, I took a little bit of James Earl Jones,

and my mentor, my real mentor, Roscoe Lee Brown and kind of wrapped it all up in there and came up with a sound that I thought was, you know, right for him. I mean, it's all there right from the start. It's like the specificity, the very, the cadence, the walk. You had a plan. You knew what you were doing. I knew what I was doing, but it's really intuitive. I'm not somebody who like spends a lot of time doing research or any of that stuff. It's just The script was so unique, and I understood the concept of one world and the other world, and I understood anime as a fan. I love science fiction, so I just went with my gut. The writing is gorgeous.

You know, that whole speech, when he goes, you can feel it when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. I mean, that shit is gorgeous, right? So it was, and the other thing, the other thing about that scene is my silent partner in that scene, Keanu, is beautiful in that fucking scene. As I'm like, the first time I saw it, 99 when it came out, I forgot about all the metaphysical and spiritual and religious and all the symbolism and stuff that's in it. And because we worked so hard training, you know, all I could remember was how sore I was from the action. we did. So when that scene happened, I was like, and he offers him the pill. My internal dialogue was, don't trust him. Don't fucking take that pill.

It's a different movie. I mean, I'm offering these pills. You really shouldn't take either one. Don't do it. Don't do it, man. Bad idea. What did, what did both of you guys? like make of Keanu, like right from the start. I mean, he's such a singular performer. There's nobody like Keanu Reeves. No, that's the thing. There's nobody like Keanu Reeves. Yeah. Keanu Reeves is like a shooting star that appears in this guy once, and it burns really, really, really, really brightly, and we all just get to watch.

Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So you were alluding to this earlier. Alluding to this earlier, Joe, like stepping onto the sets, again, that probably gives you a sense of like, okay, now I kind of get it. Now I'm in this other world. How much did the sets, the costumes, the accoutrements kind of like get you in the zone to play Cypher? Wait.

It was everything. But it was just a sinking feeling when I walked onto that set. Like, oh my God, what did I do over in the major? If I could have only seen this place first, I see, yeah. It would have, you know, made major adjustments. But, yeah, I'm always, you know, I'm an external actor. I work from the shoes up. Yep.

And it kind of defines the internal workings. And I always trying to look at the connection of me inside the character. And the idea that I remember, like, making a note that everyone in the May, in the Nebuchadnezzar had a clear, extraordinary commitment to Morpheus's journey. And there was no doubt, and I chose that I was full of doubt. and rage and bitterness, you know, because I chose to be in love with Trinity. That's never written. It's never talked about. And to make a deal with the devil and betray the people I love

and then never have any memory, I'm always arguing with my fans about this. Who wouldn't take that deal? Also, the thing with the Wachowski's, when this moron, He says, I want to be somebody important, like an actor. So good. What a loser. Again, you're talking about a screen partner, you know, having Keanu and that, having Hugo, the contrast, again, this measured, very specific delivery, which, again, such a choice and pays off. But, like, you know, you're actors, you know, when you're out on a limb, he was going for it.

He was doing a thing. What did you make of, did you, do you have any recollection of, like, seeing, Hugo do that cadence the way he was speaking and what you made of it at the time? Yeah, because he's nothing like that, you know. So I got to know Hugo as Hugo, you know, during all the rehearsals and hanging out, and we've shot in Sydney in his hometown, and then this guy shows up. Same thing with Lawrence, you know, it's like Lawrence's characterization is so specific and regal, and, you know, I was just putting on a leather jacket and talking like Joey Pants.

I don't know about that. Well, let's talk about the leather jacket and the looks for both of you. Did you have any say on, like, was the goatee, like, your choice of the facial hair, or did the Wachowski's have very specific, I would imagine they had specific ideas on wardrobe. But, like, was there any exchange on either of your looks in the film? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, Kim Barrett did an incredible job. And all the silhouettes, she had, you know, they had designed, you know, and they're gorgeous.

I was looking at the storyboards that they had for us. And in the storyboards, Morpheus' mask, I call it. The glasses were on, and the guy was making them, he handed me the glasses, and they had stems on them. And I went, those aren't the glasses, and he was like, what do you mean? And I was like, look at the storyboard. There's no stems on those glasses. And he's like, oh, how are we going to keep them on your face?

I was like, it's not my problem, son. Not my department, sorry. That's why they look like that. Do you have any of the glasses? Do you have any of the water? I have one pair of the original glasses, and I gave one pair away. to a young boy who was suffering with cancer, who was about 11 years old or something, way back then, you know.

And he wanted to meet me. It was a make-a-wish thing. I gave him those tasks. And for you, Joe, any recollection of arriving at Seifers' look, wardrobe, facial hair? Was there a give and take? They really wanted this thing here. Soul patch kind of thing. But I forgot and I shaved it off

from when I showed up. They said, where's you? So we started out with a piece and then we let it grow out. The boots, I was over at their office and I had these cowboy boots that were made

somewhere in Brentwood and they said, oh, those boots. So they used my boots And, but the glasses, it was very important to Kim, with everyone's... Yeah, with every character. Very important to her. She worked from there and then worked her way down. Was there any talk loosely on that film?

Again, you're kind of like a $50 million production out in the middle of nowhere, which Housegays had no real resume to speak of. Was there talk of like, oh, this could be a franchise? We have other ideas for stories? I think they shared a lot of that with Keanu and Hugo. I wasn't aware of it until we were done with. the first movie. And for, in the script, so let's, so cipher's end, definitive in the script? What do you remember? They lied to me. They fucking lie. You know, let's get to the good stuff.

I made the mistake of telling him the fugitive story when I, I convinced Andy Davis not to kill me. Right. And, uh, and then, you know, and Harrison was saying, you know, it's great, but if you get killed, you know, they'll feel sorry for you. And I said, what if there's a sequel? And Harrison smiled. He says, it's not going to be a sequel, because I won't do this piece. of shit again. And I said, famously, well, fuck you, we'll just chase some other $20 million asshole through the woods. And then Harrison, you know, came out with it. You said, you're doing it, you're doing it. So I told that to the Wachowski's. So then I was talking to Lily on the phone, and I said, hey, you can't kill me, right? You're not going to kill me.

And, and Lily said, hey, Lana, you know, he doesn't want us to kill him. And I heard Lana off camera, like, knowing that I could hear this. And she said, well, just lie to him and we'll kill him later. But on screen, it's not 100% definitive, is it? really look at it. Don't get me started, all right? They brought fucking agent Smith back. You know, it's a matrix. We insert his body. Yeah. It's not too late. It's not too late. It's never too late. We're Seifer today. How's Seifer doing? What do you

think? Living his best life? On the mend. No, what? What? He's an actor with an Oscar. He's an actor with an Oscar, they say. Yeah, you should have played Seifor. Hey Michael. Hey, Tom. Well, big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth-shaking. Heartbeat, sound effect, big.

Mates is back. That's right. After a brief snack nap. We're coming back. We're picking snacks. We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be.

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unless you want the show to follow you. You mentioned the training, Lawrence. I mean, the epic fights, the epic kung fu sequence like with Kianu, I know a lot of work. Needless to say, went into that. Give me a little sense of what it was like to shoot that, what went into it. And I'm also curious about like the now iconic, you know, beckoning move.

That's in the script, that's in the choreography from the starts or what? No. So the training was a lot. It was long and it hard and we worked in a warehouse in the valley somewhere and we had a mattress and we had some bars like the bars over there. And we would stretch in the morning for two hours, and then we would do choreography for two hours, and then we'd have lunch, and then we'd go and do weight training. We trained like athletes.

And the Hong Kong stunt team, Master Wu Ping and his guys, they trained us harder. They made us work harder in training than we would ever have to do when we were on camera, which is why it works and looks so good. And this is kind of two things that I put in the fight. And Kiano put something in the fight, where we both stole from the same actor. So this is my version of Bruce. This is Bruce Lee. And Kiano does this, and that's his version of Bruce Lee.

And then I did my version of Ali's shuffle in the dojo by it as well. Well, not only that, they, yes, come on. Film history, but they obviously then incorporated the call back at the end. With Hugo and Keanu, yeah, yeah. So you did more than your share, man. You should get a bonus for that one. It's, you know, it's all in the collaboration.

It's just, you know, it's the shit that you do because you want to have people have the same kind of feeling that those movies that you watched gave you, you know. Do either of you remember the first time you saw the film? Was it pre-premier? Was it at the premiere? We all saw it together. They, at the Lantana at Santa Monica, I think we got to see it the night before they were going to show it to the studio.

Is that right? I can't remember, man. I remember seeing it in New York because I was doing a play. I was doing Lion and Winter here. I couldn't be at the premiere and I saw it here. I went to see it with an audience here in like Times Square and I was, you know, the hat down and shouldn't just hide out because nobody knew what it was. You know, the Lorenzo de Bonaventura, the story is he showed the script to, I guess,

the green light men at Warner Brothers and they were like, we don't understand it. And he was like, nobody under 30 understands it, that's okay. Do you remember, like, I mean, again, you read the script, you're on the set, but it's a whole other thing what this is all put together, Joe. I mean, like, it must have been just a real treat. That's the goal of an act. That's the dream of an actor, to see everything plussed up to the nth degree. You must have been so relieved and satisfied when you saw it.

You know, I have really bad taste, so I, so I, when I saw it, I thought, This is, you know, this is what they were talking about. This is wonderful. But mentioning Lorenzo and all of these young executives that really put their asses on the line. If this movie, you know, a lot of great movies that don't open. If this movie opens and people don't show up, there's all of those careers going bye-bye, you know. And so it really needed to have a happy ending. It needed to open.

And, you know, and so when it did, I was incredibly relieved for all of these pioneers. I mean, executives like that, nobody's doing that anymore. Everybody's so frightened. They want to go with the safe and the easy and the – so that was a big gamble, even with the heads of the studio at that time, you know, and the fact that they shot it in Australia really creatively kept those voices at bay. No, I mean, it's so true. We don't get new matrixes, as it were, original stories,

unless someone takes a bit of a gamble. And Hollywood has gotten so, so safe. And it's scary to think about, like, you know, going forward, where's the next Wachowski's unless someone takes a shot? And it happens. It just happens less than ever. Generally, like once every 25 years.

Yeah. So I alluded to the fandom at the start. What do fans bring up when they see you and they want to talk about The Matrix? Do you get a quote? Do you get a conversation? You must have had innumerable fan encounters over the years. Do any stick out for you?

I always get red pill or blue pill. Like that's, people think that's... They think they're saying hello to me when they say it. I realize that's what that means from them. And I'm kind of like, well, it's always a purple pill day, isn't it? There it is. I mean, Joey, you have one of those resumes that they could bring up a thousand different things. But can you tell a Matrix fan coming from down the road?

This weekend, I've gotten maybe a half a dozen friends that have come up and admitted that they would have taken the blue pill. You know, yeah, you were right. You were right, you were right. Have you guys seen, you must have seen fan art over the years, too, of your characters.

Yeah, there's some really amazing. Tatues, the whole thing. Amazing fan art, man. It's been amazing. I mean, that was, remember the time? tattoo that we saw that someone has. You guys saw a tattoo the other day you're saying? It was not, no, it was back then after we, I think it was after we did the first movie. But someone showed us a photograph of someone who had me and Carrie Ann and Keanu tattooed on themselves,

which was like really kind of mind-blowing from, you know. As somebody who doesn't have ink, I was like, wow, that's okay, you know. Is there an actor or character that if you had to tattoo on your body, you would do. I'm forcing you at gunpoint. Joey, Lawrence, you have to get this tattoo. Who would be? You have to shoot me. No, I just have my kids on my arm.

But there is an old girlfriend that I covered her up with a leaf. I hope she had a short name. It was... Fortunately. There's a guy, the goonies, there's a goony guy that, his entire body, and he came, he comes to the conventions. And so he had me, he had my character here, and then he had me sign it with a Sharpie, and then he tattoos it. So he has everybody's signature as well.

Sweet. Yeah. Wow. Again, commitment. Love. That's loeve. Yeah. Of course, Matrix spawned a bunch of sequels, obviously reloaded revolutions, Lawrence

you were a part of them. Talk to me a little bit about, I don't know, your perspective on those two. Those are ginormous undertaking so we could spend hours on in and of itself. No, you know, again, we went back to Australia, you know, and we knew that we had to sort of match what we had done. And there's, you know, there's some great stuff in both of those movies. I like revolutions of those two.

Yeah. There's something about revolutions. I can't put my finger on what it is, but I think it's when Keanu was blind. And I think that whole thing, going to the city of the machines and all that I thought was kind of fascinating. But nobody had done it like that before. We were the first ones to work with,

we were the first Western actors to work in the Hong Kong style of action with the first movie. And then, you know, they created bullet time. They came up with bullet time. And they were the people that really pushed the digital component with John Gaeta and his visual effects team to create Zion. to create the Sentinels.

So, you know, we knew we were involved in something that was groundbreaking, and it was evident that it had changed movie making right away because there's no movie that comes after the Matrix that's a sci-fi action or fantasy movie that's not been influenced by it. It's everywhere. It's so pervasive.

You almost forget where it came from at this point. Yeah, now people don't. realize, but no Matrix, no MCU. Like, no, doesn't look the same. In what way do you see, when you're watching MCU films, do you see The Matrix? It's in terms of the quality of the action, the time that they spend to train, to get the actors in shape, the commitment that they have, the graphics that they're able to put on the screen, the things that they're able to create on screen using both practical things and

and digital art doesn't exist without the Matrix. The Matrix is the blueprint for all of that. Do you have a favorite, you have some great speeches in the sequels. In the second one, there's some epic speeches you get to make. Do you have a favorite? I like the one that ends with, isn't that worth living for? Isn't that worth dying for?

Lawrence, you know, I printed it out for you if you want to give it a go right now. I have it, I have it, I have it. Do you want to look at it? If you want to play it, you can play it. I'm not going to make him do it. He needs time to prep. He needs time to prep.

Yeah, I can't just, you know. It's not a cold reader. It's not like saying, you think that's air. You're breathing now? It's not as easy as that. Fair enough, fair enough. I want to be friends in the future. It's okay.

The thing about what they did, It was a ballet. It was a continuous. There wasn't a lot of cuts. It wasn't a fes. It was like it was all in one most of the time because the actors, this is the first time where the actors were actually doing the kung fu. And then as a result of its success, everybody copied it,

but poorly and badly. And with, you know, multi-cuts and, you know, tight shots. And if you look at the matrix, it really is a symphony compared to what we see today. Yeah, I mean, the sheer amount of time that went into all these facets, the training you guys did. It's like there's no shortcut to that. It's not the same. No, there isn't. So we did the dojo fight. We trained for six months before we got to Australia. We got to Australia. We continued practicing the fight for at least four months before we shot it. And then we shot it over like three days, and we had never done it full out, like we had always marked it. We had never really used all of our physical energy to do it.

So we shot it, I think it was on a Friday, the first time we took a shot at it. And by the end of however many takes that we did, both Keanu and I were black and blue. We were bruised on our forearms, because we had never made contact like that before. So, that's how committed we all were to doing this thing, because we knew that they had a vision and they communicated with us very well that what they were trying to do is something that nobody had seen before. Also just like on a basic fun level, no one has ever looked cooler in a film, Lawrence, than you as Morpheus.

Like, I mean, you acknowledge that, like that, that silhouette, as you say, the way they photograph you, it's instantly iconic. Well, thank you. I mean, I, you know, I'm, I have to say that Omar Sharif and Peter O'Too look cooler than I did. It's a good company to be in, at least. Look, the film was a phenomenon, obviously, we're still talking about it to this day. The box office was huge.

It was actually, you know, for its time, for a film of that, it won four Oscars. They were all technical Oscars. Do you feel like it got its due? I feel like if it came out today, actually, there's a little bit, at least, awards-wise, more acceptance, at least a little bit. I don't think so, because it's science fiction fantasy, and nobody was taking science fiction fantasy seriously

in that way in terms of performance, in terms of story, in terms of, because it's fantasy, right? So it's escape, it's escapism. What's really honestly crazy is how relevant it is now with, you know, our real world and our virtual world, in our real lives and our virtual lives. That's what's trippy, that it really does speak to all of that. Yeah, we just, I literally just did a panel with James McAvoy and Elliot Page here like an hour and a half ago.

And I asked Elliot about like films that influenced him growing up. And it was, it was Matrix because it was cool and it was actually about real, like, deep ideas. And that's what some people forget. It's like, sure, it's the coolest movie ever made. Right. But it's heady stuff. It is. can like do a PhD dissertation on.

Yeah, but you don't have to. You don't have to be involved in all that stuff. You can enjoy the fantasy of it without really diving into the deep stuff. You see it at 12, it blows your mind, then you return to it 10 years later, and you're like, oh, let me dig into the deep stuff. Did you...

So your relationship with resurrections, obviously, I think some of us, it's fair to say, we were bummed, we didn't get to see you back. Yeah, thank you. In resurrections. Was there, I mean, did you reach out? Did they reach out with their conversation? I reached out, and it just didn't, you know, it didn't pan out.

And, you know, I said, thank you very much. And Lana said, thank you very much. I'll think about it. And that was that. Apparently, word on the street is Drew Goddard, a very accomplished writer, is working on a new Matrix film. I don't think anything. Who's is?

Drew Goddard. Really? Yeah. Oh, cool. You have his number? Joe Panaliano. He's still got it. He's got the timing down.

Your game in principle, you're not over it. One more go-around is Morpheus and Seifer, perhaps? Yeah, God, yes. I mean, you know, it just depends on, you know, how good it is, really. If it's great, yeah, you know, if it makes sense. I mean, I don't know if it makes sense, you know. And then just outside, I do want to mention beyond The Matrix for both of you, you guys have such amazing filmographies that touch these worlds. I mean, it gets to be Perry White. I mean, unbelievable.

Is that a moment, like, you step on that set? Yeah, I mean, just to be able to, like, you know, say, you know, I'm talking to Kent. Like, to talk to Clark Kent. It's kind of, yeah, it's kind of cool, you know. Yeah. Man of Steel. a great movie. I agree.

Man, it steals a great movie. 100%. You've been in plenty, from Daredevil to The Last of Us recently. I don't know if we're getting any more. Are we going to get any more flashbacks to your character in the future, The Last of Us? I don't think so, but I'm going to be in the new Wonder Man series. Both MCU veterans now. Yeah, that was just officially announced, I think the release date perhaps.

So a good experience there. Yaya Abdul Matine. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, and Sir Ben Kingsley. Come on. Just to hear him say my name, Joe Pantuliano. Did Sir Ben ever call you Joey Pants or no?

No, he never did. Is there a level of familiarity that... He called me Lord Trousers. That's like the ultimate. That's like the ultimate friendship level. There's Joey Pants and there's more trousers. My age is like Joe, I can't be Joey. I'm 74.

So it's Joseph Trousers. Oh my God. I don't know how you got work done. So good. We're going to see you in The Witcher. You keep adding to the genre resume. Yeah, I got this offer to be in the Witcher with Liam Hemsworth.

And I'm playing this character named Regis, who's a vampire, which is very interesting. First vampire on the resume? Yeah, yeah. First bloodsucker, babe. It's going to be great. It's going to drop on Halloween, so. Amazing.

Yeah. Is there any franchise you said? I mean, you know, you earn the love of this crowd. You already had it, but at the start when you're mentioning Star Trek, Star Wars, everything, you're into all of it. Let's manifest something for you, Lawrence. There's still plenty of road to go. What do you need?

What do you want? So I know that they're talking about the X-Men now. Who do you want? What do you want? At this point, I want one of two things. The first thing would be, what do you think about Lawrence Fishburn as Professor X? That could be cool. Approved.

Green wits. That could be cool. And then, I don't know, I'm going to let you guys decide. I can't figure it out. Star Wars? At this point, Star Wars? No, I'm good. I'm watching everything.

Do you watch it all? I'm watching every Star Wars. I'm in the middle of, what's it? What's it, Rebels now? Yeah. The animated? I'm in the middle of Rebels now, man. I'm good on the couch with Star Wars.

I don't need a lightsaber. I don't... Pugh, pew, pew. I don't need it. I enjoy it. But I don't need it. And then I think really, honestly, it's whatever then. Like, people always ask me,

what's your favorite thing you've ever done? And I'm always like, the next one. Whatever the next thing is. So I'm... It's been 25 years since The Matrix. and maybe some freak out there has got a strange movie they want to do and it's nobody knows if it'll work

I'm your guy they are available for work get your crazy scripts ready you guys it's been honestly a true honor to share the stage with you congratulations and everything in your career in particular though This 3,000-plus crowd appreciates your work in The Matrix.

It stands the test of time. It always will. Give it up one more time. Thank you, everybody. Lawrence Fishburn, everybody. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Welcome and enter if you dare. Hi, I'm Hallie Keeper. And I'm Allison Libby, and together we're the hosts of Ruined, a scary movie podcast where Hallie tells me the grisly details of a haunting new horror film each week. Whether you're a terror hound like me or a scared he can't like Allison, we've got so many thrills, chills, and obviously kills to share with you in every episode.

It's the podcast that I'll have you saying, that was so funny. I should not have listened to it at night with all the lights off. From the grates like The Exorcists and Poultergeist to modern classics such as hereditary and get-out to the freakiest new releases like a quiet place and terrifier, we ruin them all and will leave you howling, mostly from laughter, sometimes because you're turning into a werewolf. Ooh, listen along as I try and guess the movie's twist, predict who will survive, and answer the hardest question of all. What would you do? So please listen to new episodes of Ruin every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. podcast. And whatever you do, we're begging you, please keep it spooky.