Happy Sad Confused - Tony Goldwyn

Episode Date: February 25, 2020

Through the ups and downs of a career on the big and small career, theater has always been the consistent refuge for Tony Goldwyn. Tony joins Josh on the podcast to talk about his current performance on stage in "The Inheritance" as well as his notable roles in "Ghost" and "Scandal" and how he fell into the family business. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Your idea of never missing out happens here. Conditions apply. Visit rbc.com slash avion. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Tony Goldwyn, from Ghost to directing, to Scandal, to Broadway. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused.

Yes, a first-time guest on Happy Sad Confused. always a fan of Tony Goldwyn. I've seen him in so many different kinds of performances. As I said, he is currently, his current iteration, his current life is on Broadway, and I've seen him in two great pieces of work in recent years. He was in network last year, and now he is currently appearing in the inheritance, which is a fantastic piece of work. This came over from London with stellar reviews. I saw it and was blown away by it. It's essentially a reworking of the enforcers Howard's End, but through the prism of the AIDS crisis in New York in the 80s, it's a special piece of work. And sadly, it's closing actually pretty soon. March 15th

is your last opportunity to see the inheritance on Broadway. Tickets are available. I would highly encourage you if you're in the New York area, if you're able to get here, see it because it's one of the better pieces of theater I've seen in quite some time, and Tony is fantastic in it. Yeah, a really special piece of work. Anyway, we cover a lot in this. Tony is a really, you know, he's got a great perspective on a fantastic up-and-down career. I always love these conversations that talk about the ups and downs in an actor or filmmaker's life, and he's certainly experienced all of them. You know, I think we all probably came to know him first with his performance in Ghost,

and then he takes an interesting turn because really the roles or the right roles and the right films didn't come after Ghost, so he took kind of like a left turn and became a really successful director. I had a great feature film directing career. And then in recent years, had this kind of new wave of acting opportunities thanks to a little show called Scandal. And through it all, theater has always been there. And as you'll hear in this conversation, theater has been really the constant in his life. We talk about all of that, his impressive family history. That Goldwyn name may sound familiar to anybody that's a student of film history. Yes, his dad and his grandparents were all in the business and really form.

a key part of the foundations of the film business, as it were. So a real pleasure to have Tony in my office to chat about the inheritance and a really stellar career. Anyway, a lot going on, as always, I want to mention a couple of things. I've been traveling a lot. I did the math. I think I was on five planes in seven days, and that is just too many. That's too many planes. But it's, there were some family stuff, but also a lot of work stuff, including a really fun shoot that you should be seeing very soon.

The byproduct of, I caught up with Chris Pratt, who, you know, he's the best. I mean, I've talked about Chris on this podcast before. We've done so many interviews and conversations in different formats over the years. And I mean it when I say it. He's really been like one of the most consistently supported. and good-natured guys that I've gotten to know in the business. And for somebody that's as huge a star as he is, he is really in the stratosphere for me just as a human being.

So anyway, all of which is to say, we shot a new, really fun bit for Comedy Central that he was so game. He was so game as he always is, and he killed it and we're about to debut that. That's in conjunction with Onward, his new film with Tom Holland, that opens, I believe it opens March 6th. So check out that. That's the new Pixar film with those guys and Julia Louis Dreyfus is a part of it. So, you know, it's going to be good. Anyway, that's

something to look forward to other things. Oh, I've been, you know, I've been catching up on TV like everybody else. I've been watching our old buddy Logan Lerman's show, Hunters, which is really unique and fascinating. I feel like it was kind of made for me. It's, you know, about Nazi hunters in the late 70s. Al Pacino's in it. It's a great ensemble. uh really impressive um i was going to say filmmaking i mean it has that kind of that sheen of filmmaking to it and it's great to see logan uh in a really um interesting project and on the great see Logan opposite like a legend like al Pacino and more than holding his own so yeah a lot of good stuff um all which is to say there's too much damn content out there and we're only in february

we're in february when the good stuff isn't supposed to be out there now the good stuff comes later But even I find myself way behind on everything. I've got that running list of TV like everybody else. So I'll be catching up with it all in these leaner months for the film world. And then come summer when the blockbusters come, I'm, you know, I'll be as far behind as everybody else. Anyway, we're not talking movies or TV today. I mean, we are a little bit, but we're talking to theater, theater with Tony Goldwyn. Again, he's currently starring in The Inheritance on Broadway.

It closes on March 15th. So you have a little bit of time. I really highly encourage you if you're able to get out to see it. It's a two-part play. It's a monumental piece of work. And I'm really glad I got a chance to see it. And I'm glad that it gave us the opportunity to bring Tony into my office. Here's my chat with Tony Goldwin.

Tony Goldman has invaded my office on a rainy New York Day. It's good to see you, man. Thanks for having me. I was a big fan of your work. And I was just saying you've been killing it on stage recently. I've gotten the pleasure of seeing you both in Network, which we can talk about a little later, which is a very unique production, and also unique production. The reason you're here today is the inheritance, which is so special, man.

This must feel even among the many highlights in your career like a distinct opportunity. It does. Really, this one is really special. I feel, every time we do it, I feel so lucky to be a part of it. It's an incredible piece of theater. So talk to me a little bit about Okay, we'll set it up for the audience a little bit I didn't know much going in I'd heard like kind of the

I'd heard the buzz Because it was in London right And like it went all of playwriting awards Insane acclaim over there It's also like kind of like I feel like it's like a new trend of these like two part plays That are these like epic stories That generally thankfully

Warrant them and this one certainly does Inspired loosely by Howard's End Which had been a while frankly since I'd seen the classic film right um but it really it puts it in a much different context what was your uh knowledge of this when this opportunity came well the way i heard about the play my older brother uh who i'm very close to is a producer of film and television producer and and he called me god i think two years ago maybe and said i've just read the most extraordinary play he said i i've read and i can't remember how long he said this you have to know this writer matthew lopez he's just amazing he's written this epic you know

thing it's going to be produced at the young vic in london and he said i'm flying over to see it because i just he said this is so i was on my radar and then he called me after it's in the london production saying you must if you can come to london you've got to see this play and i couldn't get to london in time to see it because i was busy here and um then he called me during the summer and said uh remember that play i told you about it's they're going to come to Broadway and I'm you know they're asking me if I want to be a producer on it like an investor and I don't know if I should do that and because he hadn't invested in the theater and I said look if you're looking to make a killing you probably shouldn't right but you feel so

passionately about this project to support it creatively I think you absolutely should so he then was like yeah I agree and and so he became a producer on it and maybe a week or so later I got this you know my agents called me and said they want you to do this play and And I said, that's what John was talking about. So it turns out that an old friend of mine, John Benjamin Hickey, originated my role in London. Right. And was coming to Broadway, but was unavailable for a four-month chunk of the run

from January through April. Sure. So they said, would you want to do it? And so I thought, well, this was, I knew how thrilled my brother was with this plan. I literally sat down and I read 20 pages of however many hundreds of pages. That must be an intimidating moment. Yeah, I don't know if it was a physical script that came to you, but to see just a mound.

Yeah, I mean, I read 20 pages in. I was like, I have to be a part of this. And my character was not even... I was going to say, yeah, you're not... Henry doesn't come into the play until two hours into it. He has quite a build-up. There's a lot of talk about him. Yeah, you have the ideal.

You want the character that people talk about a lot. You don't actually have to be on stage for a bit. Yeah, right, exactly. So, and then as I'm reading this, I get to the scene when Henry first makes his entrance, which is well into part one. And my phone rings and it's my brother just randomly calling me.

And I said, you're not going to believe what I'm reading. He said, what? I said, the inheritance, they've just offered me John Hickey's role because he's leaving, you know, leaving for a month. And he said, I don't want to say anything.

I don't say anything. Call me when you're done reading it. And then I, an hour or two later. Six hours later, yeah. I was weeping. And I called him up. I was like,

I got to be a part of this. This is really. amazing. I mean, having sat through the, what is it, it's probably six or six and a half, seven hour, something like that. It's six and a half, yeah. So to the credit of the production and like, I admittedly have a short attention span and I was not a word going in. It's riveting. I mean, it's emotionally just so engaging and. You don't feel that you've been in the theater that long. I would not have you in here if I got bored an hour in. It's, it's a really special piece of material. Well, and there are some of, you know, I've been to a number of two part,

multiple part epic things. And there are some where it's worth it, but it's work. You know, you invest and you're like, okay, we're in this for the long haul. And at the end, you're like, wow, that was really thing, but that was work. With the inheritance, you don't feel that way. You think, really, it's, it's over? Okay. You know, that was super, it's, it's very surprising in that way. I do wonder if it's like, you know, in this binge culture, if that's changed our viewing habits, our intake of like, because... Possibly, but this has that quality of binging a story. You just want to know what's going to happen next.

It has a momentum to it that other, you know, very worthy pieces of work don't have. So does this, as I said, like, I think of the emotional engagement of a show like this, of a play like this, and that's not always the case for even great works of art. Is that a mark of differentiating it from other material you've been in? and to feel that energy in the audience out there and even probably among your fellow actors? Yeah, because, I mean, the subject matter of this, it really for people who don't know, you know,

this is, it's really about the legacy of the AIDS epidemic. And, but it extends, you know, which becomes a metaphor for something much larger in the human experience. And you, the show, you know, you meet a group of young, gay men in present day, or actually 2016, 2017, and it's about their relationship with two older, middle-aged gay men who were traumatized by the epidemic. And it's hard to encapsulate in a, you know, in a couple of sentences.

But the, it delves into what it means. to be, you know, part of a community that was a disenfranchised or an oppressed community that went through, you know, a crisis, a trauma-like AIDS that was, you know, in many ways, sort of like, you know, what the Holocaust was for Jews. No, cataclysmic in our community. You know, a cataclysmic existential crisis that they fought through and suffered through. and the present generation, you know, are the beneficiaries of the suffering and trauma

that their forebears, you know, fought through. And they're kind of not that connected to it. You know, they take the gay marriage, if not for granted, you know, the rights that they have now. So it's sort of a distant memory. And so this really holds them to account and forces these men to look at their legacy. And you really burrow into, you know,

my character certainly is a Henry Wilcox, who if people saw the movie of Howard Zend, because Matthew Lopez sort of has fashioned this off of Howard Zend, Ian Forrester's classic novel, which is one of his favorites. Sure. And was a great merchant ivy film with Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson. I'm sort of Anthony Hopkins in it.

Henry Wilcox, in our story, is a gay Republican billionaire. Right. who is fabulously wealthy and successful and very powerful, but as a man who made a decision to sort of shut himself down emotionally in the midst of the epidemic and cut himself off from any deep human contact.

And that's sort of put all of his energy into his career. And he's really, when we meet him, he's, you know, confronted, he's, you know, there's a major sort of a reckoning that he's, he faces with what that means. Well, it's fascinating to see, yeah, it's just like our coping mechanisms and how we each kind of like grapple with, I mean, in this case, what was, as we said, kind of a cataclysmic like effect on his community, his life, and, you know, what might seem to be a black and white character. You, by the end, I think you, you have maybe more, you know, if you're not from

that political stripe, and I'm certainly not, I assume, and I know you're not. you feel for this character. Yeah, Matthew does a brilliant job because Henry is a libertarian Republican in the age of Trump. And Matthew, you know, there's a great scene where Henry gives his perspective. He gets in a political debate

with some of these younger men. And he makes a very eloquent, persuasive argument whether you disagree with it or not. And he also, the other side is brilliantly, rendered. There's this great speech about America has AIDS, which is really good. But that's the mark of good writing. You know, there's no good guys and bad guys. There's just human beings. And we're often in conflict or another, and none of us have it all figured out, you know. What's your recollection of, I mean, I grew up in the city in New York and, like, I was a kid in the 80s. So I have, like, my own, like, I was just a kid. So I didn't quite recognize what was happening. But I remember, I remember the crisis. And I remember. Red Koch's response or non-response, et cetera. Were you in New York at that time?

I was. I was exactly, I'm a couple of years younger than Henry Wilcox. So I, Henry came to New York in 1981. Tony came to New York in 1980, well, really in 1984, because I went to grad school in London. So I came at 24 years old, like Henry Wilcox, came to start make my way in New York in the 80s. And it was, by the time I got here, it was exploding. And I was working in the theater, so I knew a lot of people. And my wife, Jane, and I lost a lot of friends. However, as a straight man, I can't possibly know what it was.

There's a line that Eric says in the play, who's the sort of protagonist. He's the Emma Thompson character. You know, when he's talking to my life partner about the, he says, I can understand what it was, but I can't possibly feel what it was. And there's this very moving scene where Walter, my partner, describes to him what it was like. I feel that way. Every time I hear it, I go, yes, that's how it is. And so I feel kind of a great responsibility as an actor to try and channel. what it was like to be under assault like that,

you know, where you were living in fear for your life. And no one all through the 80s, no one knew, you know, we knew it was a sexually transmitted disease, but no one quite knew how you got it or how, yes. And the degree of panic and paranoia and homophobia. And it was, it was incredible. And then suddenly someone would be infected.

and then a week later they're dead. Like, and we lost so many people. I mean, you know, it's... Correct me if I'm wrong. You played a gay man who was dying of AIDS and designing women, was that it? I did. Yeah, early in the early days.

You know, one of my very first jobs, in 1987, there was this sitcom, very successful sitcom on CBS called Designing Women. And Linda Bloodworth, Thomas, who created it, her mother died of AIDS from a blood

transfusion. I did not know that. That's crazy. Wow. And she wanted to write about it because no one was talking about it. Ronald Reagan had not mentioned the word AIDS. No one, it was just like, everyone was paranoid about it. They didn't talk about it. So it had never been portrayed on primetime television before. So she wrote

an episode of a sitcom, which for those who don't know, designing one was this group of funny women who had this, like, in Atlanta, I think, or in the south somewhere. And, you know, they had this design, interior design firm, and it was a great show. Yeah. So this story was of a young gay man who was a friend of theirs, who was another designer,

and he'd come down with AIDS, and he came to them saying, I want you to design my funeral. And I want to do it with you, because my family's rejected me, and I want to go out the way I want to go out, and would you guys design my funeral? And they said, okay. And so it was a sort of expose of AIDS and it ends with this guy's funeral And in a half hour of sitcom Amazing

And I didn't It was kind of a great part You know, especially for me I was just, you know, it was one of my first jobs On front of a camera And it ended up being quite a Quite a big deal I found out years later

I mean still to this day People in the gay community Of a certain age come up to me And they say you have no idea What that meant to our community Because no one was the time no one was talking about it in that context and for you to see you do it as a as a young straight man to do it and um the other thing that's insane or seems insane now is that and uh a few years later i did a play in

new york that was very popular i played a gay character it was a beautiful play called the sum of us which we did uh first at williamstown and then at the cherry lane theater and it was a big hit and it was about a um a relationship between a it was an australian play about the relationship a young man and his father and the father was fully accepting of his sexuality in a very kind of macho Australian society and they were these two men

who lived together because the mother was dead and neither of them could find love in their life because their lovers couldn't accept that the other was so accepting so I had boys come and they freaked out that my dad was okay with it and women that he was trying to connect with

couldn't deal with the fact that he was accepting he had a gay son and we were both alone together And it's a beautiful play, but it was, you know, it was very powerful to the community at that time when it was under assault. And so, so I guess this is, I was very, on the periphery, you know, markers where I was trying to find a point of connection.

And yet at the same time, there were people going, are you crazy? You're playing a gay character on, don't you see that'll be his career suicide? And I was like, what? But that was the mentality. You know, people warning me, I shouldn't be playing a gay character because it would negatively impact. my career as a and I just was like well if I'm if that's how I'm making decisions I have no right

pretending to call myself an artist you know it's probably fair to say that theater's always been there for you in the ups and downs of your career for like and and you know as a fan of your work and frankly like I think a lot of people first they think of you they think of you for certain key film roles and I think of you because I'm a scienify like I know you've directed some really great pieces of work including your debut film which is fantastic of walking on the moon

and then in recent year's scandal but like you know there are ups and downs like there are for any actor and then you dig in and you really see that like theater was there at the start and theater was there

in kind of the rough patches and theater's now here in this kind of new stage post scandal and you're finding like these like I mean fair to see you've probably found probably the most significant important parts in your career in the theater

Yes? Yeah, I think that's it. Generally speaking? Yeah. Does it mean different things to you now? Has it felt like kind of the respite for you throughout your career? It's always felt like home to me in a way. And a creative home and also somewhere you always can come back and really sink your teeth into material and push yourself.

Working in the theater uses you in a kind of fuller way I find as an actor than working in film. And I say that with incredible respect and humility for film and tellers and acting because it is not easy. But it's, um, there's a, you know, there's certain technical skills you must have to work in the theater. Right, you can't hide in the theater. You can't hide. You can't, you know, you have to have a certain, um, it makes demands of your voice and your body. Yes. Because you're projecting a story to a thousand people or someone who's in a smaller theater or less.

but and yet the work that you're doing has to be fully emotionally connected and real and authentic and yet it has to have a kind of elevated energy to it it's sort of a much more athletic art form sure than acting in front of the camera so I find that really challenging and in a great way and the material just tends to be more literary and more complex so that's always been a touchstone to come back if I've, because sometimes, you know, let's be honest, I've done a number of movies or television to, you know, keep my career going and support my family. Sure. Where I did, came away going, well, that was pretty shallow, but, you know, paid the bills

and or was commercially viable and that's great. But one doesn't come away always feeling creatively, you know, inspired and energized. going back to the beginning, I mean, you, you know, you were born with a name that means a lot for those that know. You know, I mean, it's like the Barrymore's or Warner. Like, this is, like, Goldwyn is intrinsic with the birth of this industry,

of Hollywood especially. Your grandfather, your dad, like many in your family, have worked in the business. Did you have a sense of that growing up? Did you have a sense of, I don't know, responsibility to follow in the footsteps in some way? No, initially, I mean, had a very strong sense of the legacy and how significant it was. And both of my grandfathers were, my paternal grandfather, Samuel Goldwyn, was one of the founders of the industry of movies.

And my mother's father, Sidney Howard, was a great and very successful playwright and screenwriter in the 20s and 30s. He died young. but right the same year he won the Oscar for Reading Con with the Wind. So in my mother, so famous, in the theater, and her mother was a Broadway actress who actually died young. So it was in my, you know, I was very aware of it. Initially, I wanted nothing to do with it. And my parents were, thank God, obsessed with us not being Hollywood brats.

So we were sort of kept away from the business. Like, did you spend time on sets? Did you know the Oscars? I never, never, never, never, that we would never have been allowed. I never went to a Hollywood party. I never met a movie star. Wow, that's actually shocking to me. I was 16 years old.

I mean, the first movie star I ever met was Catherine Hepburn, who was a friend of my grandparents. And I, you know, she, I was when my little, my youngest sister was born. She came over to say hello. And my grandmother was the year she died. She was not well. And so, you know, I was like, oh, my God, it's Catherine Hepburn. But no, our parents really kept us away from that. I knew the actors I knew were theater actors,

who were my mother's and father's great friends. So if there was a close friendship, but I don't know, I really am grateful to them. You know, that was my father's business. And sometimes I would go to work with him. He worked on the studio that my grandfather, you know, had his own studio, the Samuel Goldman Studios, which is now one of the smaller studio lots in Hollywood.

It's cool. But I would go to work with my dad sometimes, but just, and I remember running around the back lot, and but just as a kid I wasn't like I went to movie sets I never went to his film one of him's film sets and um it probably accounts for your healthy relationship with the industry

I think that's right and then and then when I decided you know I got hooked on acting in high school then it became a like a burden that I had to handle because then when I decided to go into it and try and do it it was like oh shit you know how do I handle this one?

Do you feel like your name was part of the conversation when you would go up for roles? Yeah, I felt like a wait, you know, and I, and my father, to his credit, said, look, you want, you need to do what you need to, you do what you, if you're passionate about something, you go do it, but you're on your own. Like, you, you got to, you got to figure this out for yourself. Right. And I think it's, there's nothing you can really do for a kid who wants to be an actor. They've got to be able to either do it or not. So, um, I'm grateful that he never got too into my business. but people sort of

in New York not so much I've seen in the theater people didn't automatically say Goldwyn but in Hollywood absolutely everywhere I went like oh I know your dad and my brother

my older brother's very successful my gent John who I mentioned earlier was a very young age an extremely successful studio executive so you know I went out when I first started going out to LA it was yeah it was a challenge

it was hard but I realized it was my hangup to get over you know because it ultimately doesn't matter what people think about you. And we all have to prove ourselves in ways. And look, I was lucky enough to have some sort of lens into the industry. And as soon as I kind of made my bones and found my own feet, it suddenly became a really, I feel very privileged to be a part of the legacy that I'm part of.

And your mom basically retired from acting by the time you, the kids came around? The time I came around, yeah. She worked in the, you know, when she was a young woman in New York, she was in the actor's studio and worked with Ilya Kazan. And, you know, had a good career as a young actress. I saw she was in one of the classic Twilight Zone episodes. She was. That's right.

And then she got out to LA with my dad really wanted to live in L.A., so they moved back to L.A. And he, because she'd grown up in New York. And, yes, she did a bunch of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits and Perry Mason, a lot of these TV shows in the 50s. Did she get a kick out of your? She did. because she stopped, and she was also a painter, my mother,

so she quit acting. I think she didn't ever like working in front of a camera. I think she was sort of uncomfortable and didn't like the business out there and was of a generation where my dad really wanted her to be his wife in that old-fashioned sense. And so she became a painter, but when I started acting,

she lived very vicariously through me. She really loved, it was great for her. That's right. Yeah. Sadly, she died. you know, just as my career was taken off. But, yeah, it was nice to share with her. The, um, in your 20, so like, it's, it's not until your late 20s that kind of like one of the defining moments in your career, at least for those that watch TV and film

happened, was just ghosts, of course, right? Yeah, it was 29 when I did that. So, like, were your 20s a happy time? Was it a time of struggle? Was it a time of like, wait, where's my opportunity? Like, give me a sense. Both. It was exciting.

Yeah. Um, but it felt really hard. You know, because. the early, like, year or two were thrilling, but terrifying. I mean, I came to New York and, you know, I had the Williamstown Theater Festival, which is a great summer theater, you know, that's where I'd got my equity card, so I'd spent summers there when I was a kid kind of earning my, as a, in college and in grad school, you know, earning my stripes to get my union card.

And then I came to New York and had sort of a community of actors from there that we put together a show in a guy's apartment. loft in a part of Soho that is now fancy was not fancy then and like did a show that's how I got an agent you know it was like and it was romantic and fun

and then auditioning for Broadway plays I mean going to Broadway theater and auditioning for Mike Nichols you know and getting a job as an understudy and then and getting my first year getting a job off Broadway at a theater I always dreamed of you know

I was living the dream but also mainly being rejected and mainly you know things not working out and you realize, well, wait, I'm, I'm only getting my first, like, big job off Broadway and thinking, okay, yeah, here we go. Here we go. And then all of a sudden, two months later, I'm out of a job. I'm like, wait, is that how this goes? So, do you ever learn that lesson, by the way, as an actor? Like, I'm sure that happens routinely through a career.

You get a job and you're like, oh, we're clicking in now. Yeah, you do learn that. You do that. You must. You have to, or that you won't survive. You know, you, but so it was, you know, periods of real excitement and appreciation of the living the dream punctuated by months of am I ever going to work again? And why can I get a real break? And after a few years

I'd been, when I look back, I was working a lot. It didn't feel like it. You know, so you feel like you can't get any traction. In those days, there was a real demarcation between film and television. Right. So, you know, I worked in, I was getting good traction in New York. I did a number of plays and stuff like that. And then I thought

I realized I need to be in film. in TV if I'm going to even work successful in the theater, it'll be much easier if I have visibility, because I was losing parts to people who were more established than me. So I started going out to L.A. and got jobs as guest starring in TV shows, but because of that, could not get considered for movies.

Was Ghost on paper a obvious win? Because my recollection again, I was like a teenager then. I remember, I mean, it was Jerry Zucker, who was known for those of know. Naked gun and airplane, which, I mean, God love him, but he had never done anything like this. Patrick had done a successful actor, but wasn't like money in the bank always. To me, was probably on the rise.

Like, I don't know, when you landed that, was it clearly like a huge opportunity? For me, it was giant. But what you say is true. Here's what it was. I remember my wife, Jane Muskie, who was a great production designer, was the production designer of the film. Jane's career was blowing up at a time when mine, I was still sucking wind. um so jane got hired to do this movie and i read the script uh and i thought wow bruce joel reuben wrote a great script and i remembered reading the script and thinking wow this movie delivers on a lot

of levels like this is really fun it's very commercial like popcorn mainstream but it's really fun and it's emotional and this could be really good if it's done well patrick's career um you know we had this massive success in dirty dancing. But that had been like five years before. And he'd been in a couple of tankers, if that's the word, clinkers or something. Failures that had tanked, yes. Movies that had tanked after that. So he was not at the apex of his career.

To me, people all thought highly of her, but she hadn't had a big break, which she'd been insane, almost fire. But, you know, bizarrely, all those other people had already become, you know, hotter than her, even though I think she was the best of the bunch. And she was, you know, chomping at the best. for a big break. Whoopi had won an Oscar

for the color purple. Or been nominated. I'm sorry. She'd been nominated for the color purple. She won for Ghost. But had, you know, been in a number of box office not so successful films

even though she was a big name. It was a weird grouping. And I think, you know, no one knew. And Jerry was untested. He'd never directed a drama. And I, you know, in a way I benefited from that

because I think bigger names weren't, didn't want to necessarily sign up for it to play the villain in that because I would never have gotten that part and Jane, my wife kept coming home and going, you need to push your agents. They still haven't cast that role.

I was like, they're never going to cast me. Why would they? I can't even get auditions for movies. So I, because of Jane, I kept badgering my agents to get me an audition. And finally the assistant was like, you know what?

I'm going to get you in on that because my agent just was like, no, they won't see you. And I went in and went on tape and then nothing happened and a few months later I was in New York rehearsing a play to go to Williamstown

and in fact I think it was the sum of us the play I mentioned to you at the beginning of our talk and I got this call from agent saying guess what? They saw your tape and they really like you

and they want to bring you in for a screen test and I ended up miraculously because they couldn't cast it and then they went back through all the auditions that they'd seen and they're like, who's that guy? He was really good.

And someone said you know that's Jane's husband. So anyway, yeah, it was a miracle that I got cast. But no one knew. And even we were making it, I just kept feeling like, this feels good. Like, this is good. But you never know. And there wasn't much awareness about the movie.

But then it just resonated. It was like a sleeper. I remember it just like kept going. Resinated with audiences. Resonated with audiences. Somehow, here's an example. No one knew it. I'd mentioned, oh, I did this movie, Ghost.

And they're like, Ghost Dad? Because there was a Bill Cosby movie the same summer. There was everyone knew about it because it was Bill Cosby. And they did a sneak preview, like a few weeks before the movie opened. Days of Thunder was opening the same summer. And so Paramount piggybacked Ghost on Days of Thunder for a double-feature sneak preview to try and get people to see Ghost because no one was aware of it. Well, Days of Thunder apparently was about half full.

And Ghost was after Days of Thunder. And Ghost was packed. No idea why. People just smelled it. Yeah. And they were like, you can't believe it was a midnight show or something, and it was full. And we couldn't get everyone to come to Days Thunder, which was a big Tom Cruise movie. And I don't know, audiences, it's just, it's a weird thing with audience.

They just smelled it. And overnight, like, and it got okay reviews. It wasn't getting, you know, there was some snarky reviews about it. But overnight, it just was like a smash hit. It was a crazy thing to be a part of. I always remember the early scene of you and Patrick in the elevator. Do people ever do the gag where, like, they're pretending to be said. coughing in an elevator with you?

Not with me. No, that's not. Maybe that's happened years ago, but no, not recently. That would be me. Yeah. Hopefully not with the coronavirus. Oh, God, yeah, now's too real. Like, wait a second.

So the, I mean, yeah, we obviously don't have time to hit everything. But you've worked with, I mean, you mentioned Nichols. And I've heard you mentioned him a few times. Did you ever, like, worked directly with him? No, I didn't. I met him because he hired me to be in, one of my first jobs was understudying in the real thing at the end of its Broadway run when I first came to New York. And then, and he was always just so nice to me.

He was one of the kindest men. I'm trying to think that I've any other. No, he was just always so kind. And anytime I would see him, he would compliment, you know, my work, or I saw this thing. Or when I directed a walk on the moon, he called me, and he said, you were a wonderful director. And I was like, well, you're my hero. And, God, even to his last year of life, my partner, Richard LaGrovin, and I created this series for AMC and it ended up being on Wii TV, but it was called The Divide, which we were very proud of it. we invited Mike and Diane Sawyer to our premiere.

Just because you invite people you would like to immediately get a email back going, yes, we'll be there. I was like, really? That's amazing. They will come. Then I get a message from Mike's office the day of the premiere going, Mike and Diane, Mike wanted to reach out to you because they're not going to be able to come to the party.

They're definitely coming to the screening, but he just wanted you to know if you didn't see him at the party that he was there. And I was like, who does that? then on our way to the party I get this email from Mike and Diane it was really like hi it's Mike and Diane this like long email we just wanted you to know how much we love it Richard's such a brilliant writer and what you did and all these

and we just weren't didn't get to see you but wanted you to know how much this meant to us and we're so proud of you and that was Mike Nichols I mean who does that he's not even I didn't even get to work with him he just was and everybody says that about exactly I was gonna say I've had men He's one of those directors that just pops up and was like whether the kind of stories you tell or as a direct mentor just like was always there and I'm like transcendent theater.

Yeah, it's one of my great regrets that I never got to work with him because he also was my directing God. I have a few, but he's one of them. Because he was kind of like a Billy Wilder. He could kind of do like everything. Yeah, and he always was about oh god he

he's just a great storyteller great storyteller visually he did things that had great style but it was never about the style the way the performances he all the nuance of performances and I just there's his movies are always so

economical and his theater too anyway I just I can learn about Mike Nichols I've heard you mention I know your part was relatively small but I'm always fascinated because he's also one of those filmmakers that had a profound influence on me as a kid is Oliver Stone Yeah, Oliver's. He's a fascinating character.

I mean, I've done stuff with him. I know what he's like, and I know what he's like with actors and how his default is provocation. Like, that's, I think, how he gets off is like that. He likes to poke at people, and that's where the creative exchange happens. Yeah, and that can be both, I found it thrilling. This was on Nixon, which I was basically in for a week. But it was the most exciting experience I've had with a film director.

he was great and he could be really mean and as you say provoking he uh but he was very inspired and he liked actors that kind of bring ideas and bring a point of view which is what he demands from you right so people that don't or that are on their heels at all are a little intimidated he can be awful too because he will really go after them and i maybe incensed that so i like brought you match that energy yeah yeah yeah yeah he didn't like it he's like that that's like that's really shitty what you're doing. Why is it so bad? I don't know. Maybe I'll make it better. He's like, yeah, do that. But then when he like, he kind of liked that. It's funny because like he was sort of perverse in the way that he would

provoke you, but I was, I think he's one of the great. Because I feel like generally speaking right in this industry, it's like tiptoeing around like the art, like making sure everyone's okay. Everyone's okay. Yeah. That's not. No. I'm like that. I'm, I'm care. You know, I take care of people. But he's all he's very unusual. Like you said, he's a problem. And sometimes it's, I would imagine, not helpful, but I found it, I think he's just brilliant. Again, we don't have the time to really dive into everything deeply, but I do want to mention, like, you've had a great directing career, too. I mean, like I said, A Walk on the Moon was your debut, which is an amazing way to start as a feature director. All the way up to, like, I enjoyed conviction.

I remember recovering, and I was at the Toronto Film Festival. Oh, really? Yeah, right. And you haven't directed a feature since. Since I know it was a scandal. So right after conviction. and I want to now, you know, so I've directed a lot of television,

but until last year, whatever it was when we finished, they didn't have time. Did, I guess on the walk in the moon front, because it came at a very interesting point for you. I mean, you were pretty young to kind of, like, transition. Like, you were still, like, had a, like, a very boisterous, exciting career as an actor. Like, for instance, you're, like, directing Vigo, who, essentially, you could have been up for that part.

Like, you were the same age, essentially. Was that odd for you? to kind of like shift. No, it was great. Yeah. I could not. I knew. What happened to me was I did ghost, which like we said, blew up.

And then I did one or two things that did not work. And suddenly I realized, like I was hot when I did ghost. I'd never experienced that before. Like everyone who'd been slamming doors in my face were suddenly kissing my ass. I'm literally people that would turn away from me at a dinner table because they, like I had leprosy were throwing themselves at me telling me how they always knew. was going to be a big star. No. And then, you know, a year or two after Ghost, when movies weren't successful,

suddenly I was struggling again, not in the same way. I was still, and I was working. But your expectations also were higher. Like, wait, I should be on this level now. Like, why aren't I getting up there? And do I have a shot at that? And I felt out of control of my career. I was like, you know what, in 10 years, I don't want to have my life be like this.

even if I have, because I knew you can have a great success and be on the A list, and then all of a sudden you're not anymore. And I said, I need, so that's when I got into producing, and I found that script. And then because I didn't want to give somebody else to screw up, I ended up sending to direct it myself. I was so thrilled by the experience. And I knew people were saying, well, do you want to play the blouse man?

And I didn't know, I wasn't right for the part. Vigo was the guy. And I wanted to direct it. I didn't want to have that burden. I needed a very specific person for that role. And I don't have that kind of sexuality. I guess I have my own. But Vigo has this mysterious, I don't know, I think he's a genius.

And he, there was literally, I can tell you, there was no other actor on the planet. If we had not gotten Vigo, the movie would not have worked. I tried everybody. Even if, like, Brad Pitt was not the right guy. You know, it was not of, if I'd gotten here, I wouldn't, there's something about, it was the linchpin of the,

film, even though he's not, you know, it's about Diane and she's brilliant in the film, but I don't know. So, no, I was very happy and thrilled. And frankly, you know, while my career was busy as an actor, I was, you know, I hadn't hit the A list. Sure. And so people were like, oh, yeah, the guy from Ghost. And when I directed a walk on the room, people were like, wait, who's Tony Goldman? What? You did that? So it actually reinvented my acting career as well. It was an interesting thing about perception in Hollywood. You know, people want to put you in the box that they have you in.

So I've always tried to remain a moving target. Successful. You've done that very well. You know, you think I'm that? Okay, I'm going to go to this. Yeah. So the same thing. I do it because I love doing it, but you know, I did scandal. That's great. I'm going to go back to Broadway. I'm going to do network. You know what I mean? And so that, and that was like, oh, cool, as opposed to, what's my next

series? You know, now I have the heat off scandal. I need to do another series. Well, yeah, but I you don't find scandals that often. Well, I was going to say, scandal couldn't have worked out more perfectly. Any hesitation you might have had, it was your first series. Like, it just, it seems like, and it also seems like just judging from you on social, like that you guys, like, really formed, like, a true bond in this cast. It was amazing. It was amazing.

Yeah, we're still very close friends. Was it odd on a superficial level of becoming this, like, kind of crazy sex symbol in your 50s? It was hilarious. It was a perfect illustration of the fact that we think we can control our life. And we just can't. Right. This is all the stuff that, like, we were just talking about. Like, in your 20s and 30s, you're like, this is it.

It's all going to happen. It's supposed to, yeah, it's supposed to be this way. I'm supposed to my 30s. And if I don't become a movie star by the time I'm 35, then it's over. And literally my dad, I love my dad. And I, you know, God, you know, he's no longer with us. And he was in a tremendous, you know, mentor to me in so many ways. But he had his perception on it.

When I was going to be an actor, I remember him saying to me in 1978 when I was, you know, out of high school and wanting to be an actor and I was applying to a summer theater program in San Francisco and it was when he knew I was serious about doing it and he was like ugh and he said you know here's the reality of the business if you're not John Travolta by the time you're 25 it's kind of over there's no career and at that time John Travolta

on the heels of Saturday Night Fever was the biggest star in the world and I was like what I was like Travolta or busts what something you know and he was a you know on his end he sort of that was his anxiety talking but there's a part of you that always feels that way you know and I knew that couldn't quite be right but you do think there are all these rules so for me I didn't become a nailist movie star in my 30 so I became a movie director yeah and then that opened up the whole universe for me and then in my at 50 I end up being like sort of the sex symbol on this hit television series and in a very

while mainstream really interesting and kind of groundbreaking in a lot of ways show. It just made me, you know, suddenly I'm in like the list of people's sexiest men alive or whatever it was. And I just thought, well, you know, keep a smile on your face and just do what you do. Because anyway, I could never have made that happen.

And also seemed seeming like dovetailed perfectly with interests in your own life. I mean, you didn't become an activist with scandal. Like these were things that were intrinsically, it seems like a part of you. Yeah, but it gave me a platform. Exactly. Yeah, I'd always been interested in, you know,

tried to do what I could and use whatever celebrity platform I had for social advocacy. And some politics, I've never deeply gotten into politics until 2016. But yeah, when you're on a hit show like that, you have a tremendous platform. And if you use it intelligently, you can have a tremendous impact, and especially now in the age of social media. Yeah. So before we go, I do want to mention in addition to the inheritance. I really loved network.

I was such an unusual production. I mean, I obviously love the classic film by Patty Chayefsky, but like what the director, Eveo Van Hove, yeah. Who I've seen a few of his productions and they're always very unique. What was that experience like? Because I mean, like, I remember, you know,

I had Tatiana in here, and there's some unusual stuff that you go through and that, even the way it was done, but like you're doing live stuff on the street, which I didn't realize was literally done. Yeah, it was crazy. I had been sort of chasing it a little bit. Oddly, I had in a completely disconnected way,

two years before, Jason Reitman, the film director, has a series at the LA County Museum of Art where he does readings of great screenplays, right? And so I got a call saying, do you want to read the screenplay of network for an audience? And I was like, hell yeah.

So I did it and I read Max Schumacher, the role I ended up playing, and Aaron Sorkin read Howard Beale. Oh, that's amazing. That Brian Cranston did. And we read this, and it was so fun to read with Aaron. Very quickly, probably. It was a 20-minute production

because Aaron talks so fast. He does, but he did. And Aaron sort of, in the legacy of Petty Chivsky in a lot of ways, his writing, you know, and Patty was a hero of his, and he sort of is that sort of political commentary. He writes them that way. Anyway, so that was super cool. And I ended up finishing this thing going, this is a piece of theater. Why has this never been done on stage? So I called my agents and I was like, who controls the rights to network? Because this needs to be done on Broadway. This is a piece of theater. And like, well, you're too late. Eva Van Hova is doing it at the National Theater in London. I was like, oh, damn, because I thought I could get the opposite. and the rights. And I thought, well, that's kind of perfect. And then I heard that Brian was doing it. And I said, well, if it ever comes to Broadway, let's keep an eye on it. And then I got this email out of the blue from Brian Cranston last summer or the summer before last, saying, we're doing this and we're bringing it to Broadway. And we'd love for you to be Max Schumacher. Would you consider it? And I said, I'm not available, but yes, because I was doing a TV series for

Netflix. And they were awesome and gave me, let me out a month early to do the show and I ended up doing it. But it was very thrilling. And, was that, yeah, we did it. Tatiana and I did a scene. There was lots of cameras in the thing for people who don't know. And we did this film live on the street and then entered the stage and the audience is watching on a projection and then we walk on stage and have sex. I was going to say, not to mention having basically a sex scene right in front of us. Well, it's good to know that like in this career that's had like anyone's career that's been around long enough like these ups and downs, like

there are these moments of serendipity that have happened, especially it sounds like in the theater, inheritance network, where Yeah, whether you're secreting something into the universe or what, they come around in this great profound way. But in movies and television, too, if you think of how a walk on the moon happened, or even ghost with the serendipity of Jane being involved or scandal. You know, and I was like,

maybe I should consider television. Honestly, here's the truth in terms of ups and downs. I'd worked for eight years to get my last film conviction made. It had many lives and kept collapsing. We finally got it made with Hillary Swank and Sam Rockwell. We made the film, All this, like, people telling me, oh, this is the one, this is going to be huge, you know.

And then it didn't do business, you know, and Fox Searchlight really worked hard, and we just didn't, whatever, who knows? It didn't, and I was experienced enough at the time to feel like, you know what? I made the movie I wanted to make. If it's, whatever it's failings or successes are, it is what it is,

I was lucky enough to make the thing I wanted to make. And all the noise about, okay, this is going to be the one that launches you and I just thought so I did a musical on Broadway after that and then I thought wow after doing a year on Broadway I didn't make some money

because I made conviction for you know that was a long effort for a very little pay and I thought I should television's really changing I always said no to series but I said I should open my thinking up to it and then Shonda calls

literally it was two months later I'm doing this new show you know you want to you'd be really great for the president. And I was like, well, let me think about it. And I remember talking to my manager. I read the script. And I was like, well, it's kind of great. And I love Kerry Washington. And I was going to work with her. And Sean does it. I said, but I'm not sure like a network series. He said, shut up. You are doing this. He's like, whatever you're thinking, just shut up and say yes. Because this is the kind of thing that could really be, could really work. And I'm eternally grateful

to him. I was like, okay, I guess that's why I hire you. Because I was sort of thinking the pros and cons. He was like, no, just say yes. Short conversation. Yeah. And he was right. He sort of smelled something that, and it ended up being a much richer experience than I ever could have imagined. Well, I hope you continue to get to do a little bit of everything because I so enjoy watching you on stage, but I also enjoy you directing.

I hope you get to direct another feature soon. Congratulations. Again, for those that haven't had an opportunity to see the inheritance, and it's a really monumental piece of work. You should really do your best to get tickets if you get a chance to be in New York. you're going to be on for a few months at least. I'm until April 19th, yeah.

Excellent. All right. Again, check out the inheritance, and Tony, it's been a real pleasure to get to know you today. Yeah, thanks, man. Likewise. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate,

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