Happy Sad Confused - Viggo Mortensen

Episode Date: February 3, 2021

One of the true acting greats joins Josh on this episode of "Happy Sad Confused", the dependably excellent Viggo Mortensen. From his collaborations with David Cronenberg to "Lord of the Rings" to his recent directing debut, "Falling", this nearly hour long chat covers it all! Watch Rob Riggle on a new episode of STIR CRAZY here! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Vigo Mortensen, from Cronenberg and the Lord of the Rings to his directing debut with Falling. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. First-time guest, one of the best actors in the business, Vigo Mortensen is the main event on today's edition. of happy sat confused. Somebody I've wanted to have on for a long while. He actually doesn't work a tremendous amount. He's kind of like in that maybe not the rarefied Daniel Day Lewis frequency of acting gigs, but he is very selective in what he does. So maybe the opportunities haven't come as often as I'd like, though, of course, a couple years back he did get nominated for Green Book.

That was his most recent kind of celebrated role in the film that won Best Picture, of course, a couple years back. He is always fantastic, a consummate chameleon, a guy that can virtually do anything, whether it's a, you know, kind of a heroic leading man performance in Word of the Rings, these kind of transformative performances for the likes of David Cronenberg. He is somebody that always just pops off the screen, and I've just such respect for his career, his intellect, as you'll hear. he's a deep guy, a smart guy, and this was a really thoughtful conversation. He is now also worth mentioning a director. This is his directing debut long in the making. He's wanted to make a film for a long time. It's hard even for someone like Vigo Mortensen to get a film off the ground,

but he has finally done it. And it's a great piece of work. I got a chance to see this one a while back last year, actually, at Sundance, and then I saw it again recently. The film is called Falling Vigo Stars in it along. side, Lance Henriksen. You'll hear us sing his praises in this, too, because, you know, if you love film and TV the last 30 years, you love Lance Henrickson, especially if you love genre stuff. I mean, my God, when I was growing up and he popped up in, you know, Jim Cameron movies, he's the best. But, but yeah, this movie, though, this specific movie falling, it's a tough one. It's a sad one. It's a kind of a character study. It's a film

about memory and loss. Lance Hanrickson plays the dad of Vigo's character, and he's suffering from dementia. And not only is he suffered from dementia. He's not the best guy. He's a racist. He's a homophobe. He's got a lot of demons and not the best dad. But, you know, it's still an empathetic portrait because at the end of the day, he's also

this character's dad. And I know this is a very personal story to Vigo. Well, not a portrait of his own dad. is something that reflects a lot of his own memories of his parents. Both of his parents suffered from dementia. I talked to him, you know, I mentioned to him in this conversation. As you guys know, I lost my dad in this last year, and he had some of those, that kind of like that dementia at the end. So it was a, you know, kind of a powerful piece for me to watch. And, and yeah, I definitely highly recommend it for the performances of Vigo and Lance Henriksen. Falling is out

February 5th this Friday. So seek it out. And this conversation covers a lot. It covers his great collaborations with David Kronenberg over the year's history of violence, Eastern promises, a dangerous method. Sounds like they're going to be working again together soon-ish. That's very exciting to me. We, of course, talk a bit about Where the Rings, the film that billions around the world celebrate him for. And also about some of the reasons why, you know, he hasn't done another big franchise like superhero film he's been mentioned a lot for those films so i actually ran down kind of the list that i've heard and he uh he confirmed and denied a few things so stay tuned for that um so that's the main event today other things to mention

stir crazy crazy on comedy central my uh my silly series for comedy central continues with a couple episodes this week um kind of supporting priming the pump for the super bowl the sunday i'm not the biggest football fan. I'm a very casual football fan. I can sit down and watch any football game and enjoy it and catch up. I know the biggest, you know, the big names. But it was fun to record two episodes for this coming week. One of them is up already. Rob Riggle, one of my favorite comedians, just a good guy and an Uber Kansas City Chiefs fan. So he is very excited about the big game this Sunday. So you can check out that episode that's already up on Comedy Central's YouTube and Facebook channels. Also coming later this week, a bonus episode of Stir Crazy. I got a chance to

talk to Fox Sportscaster Aaron Andrews, someone who I didn't know personally. I mean, I've seen her work, but she was delightful. So game, so fun, a different kind of guest for Stir Crazy, but fun to mix it up with her and talk to football and a bunch of silly games as is required when you come on Stir Crazy. So that's the Stur Crazy side of things. Other things to mention, oh, I do want to mention one of their film that's coming this Friday on Netflix that I highly recommend. Malcolm and Marie. You may have heard of this. This is a film that was shot in quarantine in the last year. It's a two-hander. It's Zendaya and John David Washington. It's written and directed by Sam Levinson of Euphoria Fame. Gorgeous to look at. Well done, well shot. Really meaty roles for these two actors. Zendaya coming off an Emmy win is just spectacular in this. I think she could very well be in the Oscar hunt. John David Washington, also exceptional. He's been on the podcast recently.

I did some stuff with him for MTV, for Tenet. A much different kind of performance than Tenet. Tenet, he showed off his kind of action-leading man. Aside, this is, again, more of like a really chewy role for an actor, long monologues, really deep personal stuff. That's basically just about a relationship, you know, those long arguments that go deep into the night in a relationship sometimes. And I was thoroughly entertained by it. I think it's a really good piece of work. So that's this Friday on Netflix.

I highly recommend Malcolm and Marie. All right, that's Josh's pick of the week. Let's get to the main event. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to happy, say, confused, spread the good word and enjoy this chat. Oh, here's one more sidebar. And I mentioned this in the conversation. I taped this literally as the inauguration was happening.

So, like, actually our scheduled time was as Biden was about to be sworn in. and Vigo actually asked to kind of wait a few minutes because thankfully he wanted to watch his speech just as I did. So this is the very first celebrity interview ever conducted during the Biden administration. So there's a little bit of commentary around that because it was so fresh in our minds.

So that's a little context for you. Anyway, here's me and Vigo. Hope you guys enjoy. Hey there. Hey, how's it going? Good. Sorry about that. watching as well. Of course. Yeah, when this was scheduled, I was like, oh, shit, are we both going to

miss the inaugural dress? So I was relieved that you wanted to watch, of course. Yeah, of course. Well, thanks for taking the time out today, Vigo. I've been a long admirer of your work, and I very much appreciate this movie. I saw this over a year ago. I saw this at Sundance, sir. I'm glad we... Have you been able to watch it again since then? I did, actually. I watched it again, and it's... Because the country has changed and the world has changed with sports. especially our country. And so, in my mind, the movie, in a way, the conflicts and the problem of communication,

it's not just a problem. It's like another pandemic, really, poor communication. And that's been made really clear in the last couple months for sure. The movie is timely and more timely even in a way I didn't, I guess I dreaded, but I didn't expect it to be this bad. But let's see what happens. Yeah, and I have to say, and we can get into this, you know, another huge aspect of the film. You know, I lost my dad in the last few months, not to COVID, but, and he experienced dementia at the end.

And I'd never seen that firsthand. And so this, this certainly hit me in a much, much different way. Did it ring true to you? Absolutely, absolutely. It's, I mean, you know, thankfully, it was, it was, it was really. relatively brief in my personal experience, but it was a shock to the system to see what personality changes and to see what worked and didn't work. I mean, for me, I became like the person in my family that kind of like rode with the, you know, the flights of fancy, and that was the only way to kind of keep him at bay. I mean, for you, I know this is very personal to you. You've

experienced dementia in your family, right? Yeah, but what you just said, but going with him, basically yeah that's wise of you because a lot of people make mistakes and at the very beginning in my first experiences decades ago with it you know i had this impulse which i think most people do especially if it's someone they're close to that they know well and they know their history like a parent um you tend to want to correct them get them back on the right path so to speak or something yeah and that's the worst thing you can do you know you have to kind of sacrifice your own needs and ego because that's really what it is. You know, if your father or your mother or whoever it is, has dementia's talking to you

and, you know, about, let's say they just had lunch with a good friend and they tell you about that. And you know that that person has been dead 30 or four years. Yeah. You have an impulse to say, no, they're gone. You couldn't have had lunch, you know, thinking you're helping. You're not helping them at all because then that person dies anew for them. They weren't confused until you corrected them.

You know what I mean? And so you have to think, who are you serving? If you really want to serve them, and you have to give up your needs for them to adapt to what you feel the present is, and who knows what the present really is. Who knows what the past is? I mean, memory is very subjective. It really is, and it evolves.

Our recollections evolve, and we sort of try to control the past in order to feel comfortable in the present. So it's all kind of subjective, really. sometimes in big ways we alter our own stories so who's to say that their reality and their and their present the way they see feel and hear it is any less valid than yours for one thing and for another if you're really trying to help someone then instead of saying no you couldn't have had lunch with that person because they're dead 30 years you say in the in keeping with what

you said you know follow their flights of fancy so to speak you say uh Maybe what did you have for lunch? And then you have a conversation. What's the harm in that? The harm in it is for you and your ego. Well, I have to give up what I think reality is. What we were really concerned about in the movie was getting that right. Because I have had a lot of experience with it, both my parents, my stepdad,

three of my four grandparents, aunts, uncles. I mean, I've seen it up close for decades. and in the last decade really up close and even in a caregiving capacity with constant exposure to it and seeing its evolution, the disease of dementia, which is different in different people and it's different for each person each day. You have to be flexible, which you should be in any relationship, really. You should serve the other person if they're supposed to be a friend. But we don't always do that.

We want people to be the way we think they should be. But the more we give that up, the better the relationship is, and the more we learn about the other person, you know, the more we understand them. And I think that this is something, I mean, it was important for me to get that right in terms of how dementia really functions and memory, in a way, from my experience, compared to, you know, a lot of movies, if not all of them, really, even the good depictions, more or less show someone who is regularly confused. sometimes all the time. And then they show their point of view or strive to show what it's like to be them. Sometimes they do that in movies or plays. It tends to be a confused point of view.

And my experience is that it is us. It is we, the observers, who are confused, not the person afflicted, you know? So that was one thing. But the other was just wanting to explore memory in many different ways, how memory is subjective, memories of different people

in this story and like I say the problems of communication that we have we see manifested in our society so much right now, not just politicians but just people on the street, everybody within families for sure. It's always there. There's always

a danger of tribalism and you know out of ignorance, out of fear uncertainty, we marginalize people, we don't see them, we don't want to see them, you know. And I was asking myself a question, one of the questions I was asking myself trying to tell this story. I'm not so much about giving answers at all.

I'd rather just pose questions and see where it takes us, you know. Is that the question of whether there are some people that we just can't communicate with, that we shouldn't or that people that don't deserve to be communicated with, that's a question. I don't know. In my opinion, no, that there's no such thing. And how do you get past something that's a pandemic now, really? Communication pandemic. Well, I mean, I guess that's what Biden was trying to address in some way,

but you get it by listening. Yeah, empathy, yeah. But not listening in order to prepare your response, you know, or attack. That's a different thing, that sort of know thine enemy so you can like. No, true understanding. True. Listen to understand. Yes.

Yeah. And for those listening, we are taping this literally, like two minutes after Biden has just assumed the presidency. And it's a, you know, it's true. It's a fascinating moment. It's been a frustrating time for a lot of people for many different reasons. And, you know, one of the other interesting aspects of this film that kind of dovetails of what you're talking about, you know, a lot of us have been confronting in recent years ugliness in all its forms.

And this is a portrait of a man that, that is an ugly man at times in many ways, the character that Lance plays. I mean, there's sexism, there's racism, there's homophobia. But there is empathy and attempted understanding. And I'm curious, I mean, this, again, I know this isn't a portrait of your dad, but you must have seen these things growing up, I assume. You must have seen all aspects. Well, I've seen people like that.

And as I was fine-tuning the script and we were preparing to shoot, I was watching, you know, the president of the United States, the now ex-president of the United States, engage in that kind of behavior and language almost on a daily basis, sometimes veiled, but often not veiled at all. And it inspires a sort of dangerous and lazy kind of behavior. You know, it's a lot easier to just kind of, condemn ignorantly than it is to think it takes it takes more energy it takes more patience it takes

more effort to think and what what we need to do is think listen consider rather than just attack the unknown yeah vilify marginalized you know and uh my dad wasn't willis you know my mom was more like Gwen, the mother, than my dad was like Willis. The inspiration for the story really was my mom. It was after her funeral that I started writing this story, which became a fiction rapidly, you know. There are some elements taken from, you know, the dementia aspect of the story and also some of the childhood memories. There are some fragments and conversation. and there's the inspiration is real feelings and my own subjective memories

from my childhood, adolescence, and my experience with dementia as an adult with my parents and others, which is why I dedicated the movie even though it's a fiction. I dedicated to my two brothers, Charles and Walter, out of respect because they shared that upbringing.

They shared some of those events and they would remember, they would see echoes of certain moments of our shared lives, you know, in this story. I don't know. I mean, it just, it seems to me generally, never more so than now. It's important to try to find a way to accept others as they are, to accept oneself as one is.

It's not just Willis that has to, like, be different in John's eyes. Yeah. Well, he has to just be who he is. And John also has to think about what he's doing. How much is too much? You have to give a person freedom. You have to first really see them and understand them, accept them before you can start trying to tinker with them.

You know, I mean, we have this habit of wanting to make people the way we think they should be, and I think that's always a mistake. And, you know, this is, it's never easy to accept oneself as one is, especially if you've spent most of your life in disagreement with someone and that's your focus if it seems that there's no way to reach a compromise with them when you feel that a person doesn't see you as you are doesn't accept you it's difficult to remain open minded about them to accept them you know it doesn't matter it doesn't really matter in the end who gives in and who makes the kind or forgiving gesture what's important is that um that there is a gesture

that the gesture is made. You know, if it's, if it's snowing or raining, it doesn't really matter if we remember the first drop or the first snowflake. It has to begin somehow. And if nobody gives any ground, everybody loses. Does the same kind of apply

in maybe a much less important, but important to your life sense in terms of your work, in terms of being an actor, and sometimes not jelling with a filmmaker's vision and kind of having to meet them halfway or or being the stubborn actor that like this is my vision and I'm going to stick with what I want to do. I assume that's something you learned over the years of like what what to give,

what to take, how to find a middle ground with a filmmaker that you may or may not be jelling with. Well, I think it's almost if your mantra is nobody knows everything. If you just had that in your head, that goes a long way. Yeah, if you start getting all hot and bothered and you kind of getting defensive, just sort of say that to yourself, nobody knows everything. So maybe somebody here has something, even though it seems to me that they're on the wrong track. I think that if you're talking about actors versus directors, whether the directors are male or female, they are an authority figure, right? You as an actor, maybe you've done a lot of research, and it often happens that the actor is playing a role ends up in some ways knowing more about

that character, if they work really hard on that character, then that director does. And or then the screenwriter does. You know what I mean? Sure. They're worried, you know, like the way I like to work, I always ask myself, what happened before page one? Meaning from when the person was born until page one of the script, usually you have to just make that up. And you can, you can, that can be an extensive exercise trying to, you know, just so that you can react to any situation with that knowledge inside your body, right? So you can easily think, well, I know more than these guys do what this character would do, how they would behave, how they would speak, how they would do this and that.

But a good idea can come from anyone at any time. That's what I've learned from, you know, I've been fortunate to work with some very good directors, men, women from different places, different filming styles and backgrounds. But that's one of the key things. And I had that in mind as a director, you know, during the shooting. of falling and in the preparation. The other thing is you can never prepare too much or too early for a shoot.

Those are the two things I've really learned from the good directors. But the first thing I mentioned is really important so much so that on the first day of shooting and falling, I said to the cast and crew, I said, I think we've prepared this shoot really well. Marcel, a cinematographer and I and others, we have a really good plan of action on the first day,

what we're going to do each day and how we're going to do it. but a good idea it can come from any way so don't come to me tomorrow with your good idea or suggestion about today's work because it'll be too late. Just bring it on.

I'm not going to feel and some directors do feel that threatened because you have a question or you disagree or you have a suggestion. It doesn't matter who you are. If I don't want to use the suggestion or the question doesn't prompt me,

to do something differently than what I'm doing in that moment. So be it, but it might. It might modulate something. It might improve something. It often happens. And so let's make this movie together in that sense. So, yes, a director can do that, and an actor can feel the director is not listening to them.

But it works the other way, too. Sure. Actors can be real assholes sometimes. So I've heard. And actresses can be real assholes and lazy. And they cover their laziness sometimes by just, just being really opinionated and not really, maybe they're not that informed.

And then others really do a lot of work in preparation. They've really worked hard and they sincerely believe they know a lot more than the director and they'd stop listening to the director. That's always arrogant, no matter how gently it's done, the ignoring of the direction or the opinions of the director, even the opinions of your fellow actors, you know? I've worked with actors who are technically brilliant

who come in with their role, their scene moment to moment prepared. Yeah, they're walking into the way they want to play it. Yeah. Emotionally, everything, they know. At this moment, I'll cry, I'll laugh, I'll do this, I'll dance a little jig now, I'll get it. You know, and it's great, and sometimes they win prizes, and it's fine. But what happens there is that you have to adapt to them all the time.

And that's, you know, and you do, that you, one thing you have to learn to be as a filmmaker and as an actor is to be flexible, you know, and actors should be as much, filmmakers as directors. But what does that mean? That means being part of the collective effort. If you just say, I know how I'm playing this and I'm not going to listen to you, you're not being a team player. You know, you should listen. Even if you end up dismissing the suggestion, you should listen to the director. You should listen to other people, you know. And I think you should at least try things sometimes, you know. There's all kinds of situations. Sometimes there are directors who are really unprepared and don't know what they're doing. That does happen.

And sometimes you don't want to trust them. You don't want to put on film. Like, just try it once this way. Right. And, you know, sometimes you are justified in saying, you know what, I'm not going to do that because I'm afraid you might use it even if you swear up and down you want. Because either you'll forget, change your mind or the movie will be taken out of your hands and some producer will make that decision, you know, or editor. So it's a, it's a balance. I think. you just have to listen and and directors for actors in a way being authority figures are kind of like the father or the mother you know they they are someone that you unconsciously sometimes battle against for reasons that are not clear to objective observers like what are we fighting

out they're basically on the same track but there's some psychological right block there there are actors who just have a chip on their shoulder it does happen and there are directors who I would chip on the shoulder. I try to avoid those people because it's not as much fun to work with them. But, I mean, I'd rather work with someone who's really well prepared and then comes ready to play

and let's see what the other person brings to the table. Let's see what the director says. You know, I love directors that like to discuss and leading up to the shoot and during it that there's a dialogue. You can learn a lot more. You can do a better job, you know? I mean, it has to begin somehow.

I assume that that applies to someone who pops up in your film, And I feel like there's a joke to be made about David Cronenberg playing a proctologist in your film. I'm not sure what the joke is, but there's something there. There isn't really. I know it probably, I mean, you look at that casting, if you know who he is. And not everybody does. You know, I've asked some audiences, Q&As that I've done.

I said, how many of you know that that was David Cronenberg, the director, playing the proctologist in the scene, you know, where Willis is being examined? and, like, maybe tops 15%, you know, at first, you know, when you first asked that. Right. And then when I ask audiences, generally speaking, when I asked them, did you think that scene was a good scene and did you think that actor did a good job who played the proctologist? They pretty much all raised their hands.

I said, well, that was the goal. The reason I asked him to play the part was not like a joke or a wink at the audience. No, he was the right guy. I said to David, I'm not, yeah, it's not. I said, David, I'm not asking this as a favor. It's not some, like, stunt. I just, I've seen your acting and you're good, and you're the right type and age

and the way you speak, your presence combined with lances. I think it would be a good match. It would be fun. And, but if you don't want to do it, it's not a problem. When you read the script, you really liked it, he said, yeah, sure. And you said, well, it'd be easy because we're, you know, I was shooting in Toronto.

where he lives and he says, when are you doing it? So we'll do it next week, if you don't mind, and we'll get it done in a half day. And he said, fine. And it was a good experience. And it's a funny thing about that scene. Lance, who didn't have Skype or Zoom or any of this, he had some really old laptop.

And so my son, who lives near him, he lives in LA, and Lance lives out in the desert about an hour away. My son Henry got, helped him find a newer computer and installed, you know, Skype, Zoom. So, because I said to Lance last, you know, months ago, I said, we're going to have to do, because of the pandemic, we're going to have to do most of our interviews with, with our computers. Yeah, Skype, Zoom, you know, and he says, what's that? That's what I realized. So, but now he loves it. And it's like his new toy, right?

So he'll call me at all hours of the day. night on sky ding down ding if i haven't closed the lid it's like who um and it's great you speak almost on a daily basis it's wonderful and i was just going to say about lance i mean it's one of the things like he's somebody that i always appreciated it over the years and it sounds absurd to say it like this but like it's kind of taking a chance on Lance hendrickson i mean he's not the guy that gets money for this film um no it didn't help in that way i have to say it didn't help in that way but i knew that he would be if he wanted to do it, that he would do something special, more interesting and more potentially more powerful and real seeming

than any other actor that I could think of. But so when he Skype me the other day, he says, hey, I just saw you on the, you know, I've been watching these, you know that YouTube thing? I go, yeah. What YouTube thing? There's millions of them. And he goes, well, no, but that thing,

you go on YouTube and you can watch over. stuff and all kinds of interviews. I've been watching documentary, everything. So that's, yeah, that's great. Well, I saw you and Dr. Klausner doing like what we've been doing lately, these, you know, like you're doing a Q&A with him about a Cronenberg movie. And I'm watching this thing and I'm like, wait a minute, that's Cronenberg? And I'm like, Lance, are you telling me that when we were shooting that scene, you didn't know

that was David Cronenberg? No, how was I supposed to know that? I said, do you know his work? Yes, I've seen pretty much all his movies. I love him, but I didn't know what he looked like. I said, oh, okay. Because I remember on the day we were shooting that scene, I said to Lance at the end of the day,

because he was like in his character and doing his gruff thing and sort of almost like a comedy act, his replies, his defensive kind of sort of inappropriate replies to the doctor throughout that scene. and David went home, we were done. And I said, Lance, how'd you feel about that? Did you have fun? And he goes, well, yeah, but that guy was awful strict.

I mean, he's not a real proctologist, obviously, but I mean, he really seemed like it. I said, well, that's good to hear. He gave me a run for my money, I'll tell you that. And I said, well, good. So you had fun? He goes, yeah, yeah, it was great. I'm glad you got him to do that.

And I said, okay, I didn't realize he had no idea who that was. Amazing. my dad my dad you were saying something about my dad and I didn't answer it I wasn't trying to avoid it oh that's okay no I mean I think I got it I mean that was to the beginning my dad was very much a person of his generation right like born in the depression raised and on a farm and occupied Denmark during World War II self-made man he ran away from home when he was 14 didn't really finished school, but somehow later in life, moved to the United States, taught himself English, he married my mom, put himself, you know, went through, went to business school. My mom would work

and he would work on the side and, you know, he did business school and half the time just by doing night school and all that, like really determined, but also in many ways very inflexible, like many men of that generation. Like, it's my way or the highway, right? I'm the breadwinner. I worked hard. I've had a tough childhood. You know, I'm not going to adapt to you. I'm not going to evolve as you evolve. I'm not going to evolve with you in a relationship. You will adapt to me. I mean, that was the unspoken thing. And that was typical of many dads at that time. And so my dad was that way, but we had better lines of communication than that. Did he understand your love and appreciation of the arts? Did he get to see your success? Yeah, he did. I mean, at, at

first he was just looking at it as a practical you know typical of him in a way and of that kind of guy he's you know a few years are going by and i kept doing you know being a waiter or moving furniture or driving a truck or selling ice cream on the street you know just to pay the rent yeah and um doing you know any number of job bartender or whatever and um and going to many many auditions and every once in a while getting a small part you know play or tv or something and uh small parts in movies, not enough to pay the rent, though. And he would say, well, I don't know. This doesn't seem to be working.

You know, maybe you should try something else. I, you know, because he was thinking he was saying the right thing. Because he was trying to be practical in a law year. I don't want you to have a horrible life of constant failure and frustration. I said, well, dad, I'm interested in. I still want to, I'm feeling kind of stubborn about it. I just want to keep trying. I'm interested in.

I've always loved movies, you know, the storytelling aspect of movies. and I just, I'd like to be part of that. And I stopped talking about it because he would just say things like, well, if you would just wear, like, maybe you should wear a suit and a tie to the next interview. And I said, it's not like that. I mean, he goes, well, what's your next interview? I said, I'm for like a serial killer who just, you know, I mean, there's no, it wouldn't make any sense to comb my hair and wear a suit. Yeah, I'm trying to become the Amish guy in witness. A suit's not going to help me, dad.

So, but he was, he meant, well, my mom, on the other hand. who always loved the movies. And, I mean, unusually so, as I realized later on in life, that most moms weren't that way. You know, when you're a kid, whatever your mom's like, you think all moms are like that at first, right? She took me to the... The first time I went to a movie theater,

I was three, and she took me. And I have very clear memories that when I was three, four, five, six, seven, eight, all growing up in the movies I saw with her. The first movie I can remember from start to finish, from the first time I saw it, how I felt about it, and the conversations I had with my mom and the intermission about it

was Lawrence of Arabia. That's what she would do, which is not the normal thing. And the conversations, even the simple ones in the beginning, were always about, isn't it interesting that they didn't show this or that?

I imagine this is what was really going on in his head or something. So she would, you know, and as I got older, conversations became more sophisticated. It'd be like dialogue that wasn't there that you could imagine, dynamics that were clear under the surface, but not everything was shown. And that probably inspired in me a way of looking at movies, movie stories. And I've always been drawn, I have to say, to movies that where the director doesn't tell you what to think and feel

every step of the way doesn't hold your hand where everything isn't underlying where there isn't some kind of BS resolve at the end I like to be part of the storytelling you know I like to be longer about okay that's not there because this I'd imagine

this is what happened in their relationship to lead to that point and so forth in other words falling I made with falling I made the kind of movie I would like to go see a movie where if by virtue of its visual quality or storytelling approach, the first 10, 15 minutes,

I'm in, then I'm in as a storyteller. I'm going to, I mean, the movie's going to become something much of mine as yours, you know, you've directed it or written it or anything. And I'll have opinions about it and I'll take part. You know, in other words, and I think it's a way really of respecting the audience's intelligence. People are not as dumb as marketing people.

often or studios sometimes thing. And so anyway, that's how that worked. And my mom was there for when I started trying to act, even though I wasn't getting anywhere for years, she was interested in each step and almost so interested that it drove me crazy sometimes. Like I would, you know, if I would, she would say, well, who else is in it?

I said, I don't know yet, Mom, it's just a part, it's just one scene. Well, why don't you find out? And what's the director's name? And I would say the name, I said, I'm not sure what he's, I'll tell you what he's done. He's done this and that. She would know often.

And it was a good experience. The first couple of movies I was in where I had speaking parts I was cut out of. Purple Rose of Cairo is one, right? Purple Rose of Cairo, yeah. And swing shift, Jonathan Denham. And in neither case did the director, not do they have to, but I think director should, especially speaking parts. Let me know that I wasn't in the movie.

And each time I told my mom. You know, I was always following everything I was doing very carefully. Well, it's next Friday. It's coming out, Mom. And, you know, it will be in a theater near you the week after. And we'll talk about it then. You know, and then I get a phone call, and she says, you're not even in the credits, much less in the movie. What are you talking about?

I said, well, sometimes it happens, I guess. You ever heard of the cutting room floor? She goes, yes, of course I have. So you were cut out of the movie. I go, yeah. I go, okay, well, that's what happens. And then about a year later, it happened again with Swing Shift. And I had done the same thing.

I said, well, this is also a good scene. It's also funny and it's dialogue, and I think you'll like it. And I don't want to ruin it for you. I won't tell you the scene, but wasn't in it. So she calls me, she goes, look, and this is in the early 80s. And she says, I, you know, I've heard of this crack thing down in New York. Is that what you're doing? Because you're not doing movies.

You're coming up with really interesting stories, but I said, no, Mom, I wasn't, and I swear to God, I can show you my contact. I'm a member of the union because of it, thankfully, so I had that, and, but then I'll be in the next one, maybe. And then many, many years later, here's something I noticed was looking at the credits. You're thanked in the credits for thin red line. I assume you shot with Terrence Malick, and it's just, like, several other actors, it just, it didn't end. I am thanking the credits for that. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you why, because at the time I was offered Walk on the Moon, a movie I did with Diane Lane, that Tony Goldman shot, takes place in 1969, summer of Woodstock on the moon landing.

I was offered, I mean, he actually came to me and he said, I want the first two people on a cast are you and Sean Pan. What part would you like to play? And I said, which part? Whatever, let's talk about it. And I had some wonderful conversations with Terrence Malick. And but the way it worked out, I couldn't do that movie. It didn't work out, you know. I wish I had been in it.

But we did talk a lot. We talked a lot about stories, so maybe I didn't realize it. Maybe, I mean, thanks because we had some good conversations or there were some things that mentioned to him that he may have used for one character. I'll tell you what. Okay. So maybe that's why. I'm curious you're, you know, the, obviously the films that always come up among others in your career are The Lord of the Rings films. And your relationship to that series, which more so than many other films, you know, we talk about sort of like you were talking about this in relation to falling or any kind of complex film, they've kind of become the audience's film. Where the Rings films are the world's films now. Like they belong to billions of people. And you have your personal experience. And then a billion people have their very personal experience with it.

Is that an interesting kind of relationship to have to that film now? I love that. I love that even with falling, which is a much smaller undertaking and all that. But in going around and seeing, you know, there's so many times when I have to do a Q&A in person with people, and I've been able to tour Europe a little bit carefully by car, masks, gel, distance, all that. But with live audiences, and I'll go in and typically, you know,

I'll present the movie and say, I'll be back at the end and answer your questions, right? And usually you go and you get a bite to eat and you come back, right? But I always like to watch the first few minutes just to make sure that the sound and, you know, the brightness and the screen and everything is bright because then you can make an adjustment otherwise what the projection is. Because you want people to see the movie in the best possible way, right? And hear it, right? and um but there's something i just start to enjoy as much the movie more so just how people are reacting yeah for better or worse just i'm interested in each place each audience and each place

it's slightly different and so i usually aim to see the first 10 minutes and so many times i've ended up sitting through the whole thing just because i'm interested in what the vibe is in this dark room you know with all of us looking and listening each audience is different, and I love that that happens, that by the end, which is what I want, right, the movie belongs to them more than me in a way. And when I go up and answer questions sometimes, it's surprising. Somebody will make an observation dead certain that the reason this scene happened was because of X, Y, or Z, and it's something I had never constantly thought of.

I said, well, you may be right. Or this is clearly an homage to such and such a director, such and such a movie, or this is in the style of no, I don't know what. I said, all of what you're saying is possible. I assume that subconsciously every life experience and certainly every movie I've seen has affected me. I wasn't consciously copying anybody,

but you may be right. So people have interpretations and then bring their own family, stories, and lives, you know, to what they see always. And I love that. And I like that Lord of the Rings means something different to each person

and that they take ownership of it, some people, you know. But I've seen that happen. even with movies like Fallen. We talked a little bit about Kronenberg. I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about a little bit, at least some of the films. You did three films with him. Hopefully there's at least one more. I want David to direct again soon.

We're looking on it. Oh, good. If we're lucky, it'll happen this year. Oh, amazing. Amazing. Eastern Promises, there's a lot of that character is just I know one of your favorites, I think, and one of many people's favorites. The infamous naked bathhouse fight, is that in the script?

something you would do for any director? Is that something, again, like Kronenberg? When Kronenberg has an idea like that, you're like, okay, I'll go there. No, it was in the script. There wasn't much description. It just said in the bathhouse and, you know, there's this horrible fight. So we, we, I worked with a stunt coordinator and we worked out while, you know, early weeks of shooting. We worked out a choreography and presented to David to see what he thought. He made an adjustment. And then we, you know, just worked it out. like a dance really with the other the other two performers and um at one point i said i'm looking at this practically i'm seeing what's written on the page david and we have this choreography

you know obviously everybody has towels on and so far but there's no believable way in hell that a towel is going to stay on the whole fight i don't think he goes now i said so i think you're going to have to do it you know pretty much naked all the way you know um i mean He goes, no, you're going to have to do it. I go, yeah, no, I know, but I mean, we're going to have to do it. No, he didn't say that. But, and so that's just how it happened. Had it been another director, you know, who knows?

Right. Again, that trust factor. I do have trust with him. Not only as a director, but as a person, I mean, we're friends. We became friends while we were working on history of violence, and we've kept up conversation ever since. You know, that's 16. years ago now that we shot history of violence and we've we've kept up a dialogue not just about

movies about life family politics history you know all kinds of stuff well I'm hard to hear that there might be another collaboration excellent um it's no surgery dentist life that you know everything the New York Mets is he a fan he's not he's a he's a he's a big he's a big Toronto fan actually blue jays Yeah, and he's, you know, because he is such a, he's really smart, and he's got a certain, both philosophical, but it also very analytical bent. And so he loves the, I think he likes the baseball stats and stuff like that too. I did take him one time.

We were in New York and we were promoting, I think it was history of violence, actually. And I did say, you know, I'm a Met fan and there's a game tonight. I can't remember who they were playing, but if you want to go, I think we can get a good seat. I know the third baseman. We did get a good, we did get, great third baseman, right. And we did get a pretty good,

you know, behind the plate, not right behind the plate, but, you know, sort of near, not, not first row, but like a nice, nice place to watch. And we had a great time. I have to say, I'm pretty surprised, given, I know your son Henry's a big comic book guy and nature of the business in recent years. But by all accounts, you've been offered,

and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like you were offered, Man of Steel, a role in Batman begins, the Liam Neeson role, I believe, a role in Joker, maybe even Dr. Strange. There have been a lot of offers. Have you come close? Well, I'm not with Dr. Strange.

Okay. But the other sound about right? Some, yeah, some of those sound right, yeah. So have any of those, as Henry said, you know, this role was right for you, Dad, really go after it, or no? No. Henry, the comic book Encyclopedia.

He knows everything about DC Marvel and that other comic book lines. But no. I mean, if I have a doubt and it is that sort of thing, and there's something about the story and the director, but especially the story, for me, always story comes first. Sure. I don't care who the director is when I first read the script. I just want to see, is this something.

that I would want to see. You know, I know that's subjective, but it's like, would I want to go see this? And if I think it's that good, a story, is the part that I could play or that I could audition for and I'm being considered for. Does that part scare me a little bit? And if so, does it scare me

because I'm not sure I'm up to it and it's something I haven't tried yet? or does it worry me because I think I'm absolutely not the right casting for it, which is slightly different. But if I have a doubt, and I'm thinking, it's not bad, and it was a comic book thing, I would definitely show it to Henry Ngo's opinion, of course. Do you ever feel regret after the fact,

like when you watch what Hugh did with Wolverine, which is another role that I think he famously passed on? No, I mean, I think he did great. I can't. I'm sure no one can imagine anyone doing it better than he did anyway. So I think the thing that bothered me at the time was just the commitment of, you know, endless movies of that same character over and over. I was, I was nervous about that, I think. And also, there were some things.

I mean, they did straighten most of them out. But I did take Henry to the meeting I had with the director for that. Right. And it was in L.A. And he had, like, the little models and things and figures already, what he was going to do. And I said, well, I asked. I said, can I bring my son? You know, he's 10 or whatever he was.

Maybe he's not in the phone. He knows a lot about this. And that's his favorite comic book character at this moment, Wolverine. He knows everything. So I'd love to bring him, you know, as my sort of good luck, charm and guide. And in the back of my mind, I was thinking, and you might learn something. Because I did let Henry read it. And he goes, this is wrong.

This is wrong. That's not how it is. And so we went, I said, be polite, though, you know. And so we went, and he gave me a tour, showed me drawings, and it was a very nice conversation. And at the time, I actually had sideburns kind of like that. I'd done a walk on the moon. Oh, sure, yeah. And was, yeah, he was about that.

Maybe it was eight or nine, eight, something. Eight, maybe. And then Henry did start to speak up. And while Henry was sort of looking, and the director said, do you know this character? He goes, yes, but it doesn't look like this. And he says, no, I know. And then all of a sudden, the director's falling all over himself, and kind of the rest of the meeting was him explaining in detail to Henry

why he was taking certain liberties, right? It was a great meeting. And it was nice. It was a friend and all that. But we walked out of there, and I said, he said, do you think he's going to change those things that I told them about? I said, I don't think so. He might change one or two things, but I don't think he's really,

I think they've decided what they're going to do. I'm not going to do it anyway. He goes, just because I said that, I go, no, no, no, because I just don't, I'm not sure what I want to be doing this for years. And then, you know, a couple of years later, I'm going to three Lord of the Rings, so who knows. And involved for years and something. But there was something, there was something about the Lord of the Rings and Tolkien, the source material, and Tolkien's own source material, which has always been of interest to me, you know.

and Celtic mythology and literature and especially Nordic mythology and literature and history and so all those things combined made it for a unique experience. I have to say that more so than the movies themselves, it was the actual experience of shooting. Right.

It was so wonderful. Not just the friendships, which was great and they have endured, but it was, watching Peter Jackson and his team of relatively inexperienced and in some cases very inexperienced hundreds of crew members, mostly New Zealanders, who didn't have experience making a movie like that. I either did Peter, frankly, at that point. But his crew members really didn't know anything about that. And there was a history of filmmaking and some very good filmmakers from New Zealand,

but not a ton, you know, so most of the crew members, if they'd worked at all, it worked a little bit on TV and on some small movies, watching them solve any number of big and small problems on a daily basis, you know, in terms of how do you get this shot? How do we deal with this logistical problem, whether anything, just technical things, the way they would just make shit up and find a way under Peter's leadership was extraordinary. I mean, that was really like a very intensive film school if you wanted to hang out and pay attention to everything that was going on. And, you know, a lot of people did, including me.

It was just, that was a hell of an experience. Just watching that, watching them come up with new ways to deal with old problems and ways to deal with new problems, too. New problems that they created for themselves. You know, it's like, oh, shit, now we've gotten into that. How are we going to tell that? Yeah. Well, I love those experiences as an audience member where you watch a movie and it almost feels like they, this merry band of crazy people escaped to a country with a studio's money and just figured it out, whether it's like Mad Max, which I always talk about or the rings. Yeah, exactly. I mean, some producers did show up every once in a blue moon, but it was far away and we were shooting. And I think the unspoken agreement was, let's see how the first one turns out. Right. And to be honest, but.

the time we finished, you know, almost a year and a half of shooting, the first, the material for the first movie, that was pretty much there, although they had to do a little bit of reshooting, but they weren't going to give much money to do that, because let's see what happens, see if the movie makes any money at all. But the first one was pretty tight. The second and third one weren't, you know, they definitely needed some more work and reshoots. And, well, when the first one came out and became a box office sensation, that changed everything. Then, of course, money was available to go and do reshoots, which meant that as the actors, we had to go. There wasn't just a year and a half.

It ended up being like three and a half years, you know, going back and going back and doing it. And it was great. I mean, I just, and you could see how the crew had grown each summer we'd go back. It was tremendous. each well their winter our summer but uh yeah and at that time it was all new since then and the hobbit and all the other movies that were gone to the museum to shoot now there's established yeah top-notch world-class facilities everything that you could imagine and and people you know skilled crews it's like you know Canada created an infrastructure

that you know in Toronto and Vancouver that you know you have some of the best crews there That's why I knew shooting falling in Ontario province, where I'd worked before. I knew they were great. Right. It was a great pool of talent that, you know. So will you potentially be back up north in Canada shooting with Kronenberg? Can you say anything about what that would be? I think he would normally always like to shoot, you know, at home in Canada.

But I don't, I think it's not going to be there. I think it's all these vagaries of co-productions. It depends. Yeah. There's a couple countries that are talking about. but I don't, neither of them are Canada, so I think he's going to have to shoot it away from the comforts of the home. Got it.

But another member boy, I'm just glad he's eager to do it again. Me too. Me too. The world is a better place when David Kronenberg is creating some art. You've been very generous with your time, especially on this historic day. Thank you, Vigo, for the time.

And I really encourage everybody to check out following, as you can tell from this conversation. It's a special piece of work with some really extraordinary performance. it doesn't answer questions, but that's not what great art does. It poses the questions. I would say to you and to your audience that if for no other reason, go see it for what Lance Henriksen does. This is an actor who's had just a big, crazy life, really harrowing childhood, a man

who couldn't even read until he was 30, who's now at this point, at 80 years of age, he's done almost 300 movies. But this movie, this is the first time he's had a role, I think, like this in a way. And it's like when you watch all his movies, it doesn't matter how out there the genre is or how unclassifiable or how odd the story he's in or brief his appearance in any of his movies. There's something about him that always gets your attention. Yes. He's a completely 100% committed actor. I always felt that.

That's why I wanted him to play this part, that I know he's got the ability. And he has that presence, that voice, that face. He would just, he'll just, he's going to surprise people with this, I think. I had no idea he would do as much with it as he did. It's just beyond my wildest dreams. And I have to say it's one of the bravest, more layered, disturbing, thought-provoking performances I've seen. And one of the most honest performances I've seen in a long time.

You're not going to catch him acting. It's really, it's something else. And I think it's a performance that'll stand the test of time, you know. I'd like to see him get recognition for it now. Yeah. So I can savor that, but I know it will stand the test of time. So if for no other reason, go see it to see Lance's fine work in this movie. Well, you're a smart enough man to surround yourself with the right people.

And yes, Lance Henry can never go wrong with hiring Lance Henrickson. So again, thanks for the generous time today, Vigo. So stay safe out there. One last PS. Yeah, please. No, please. Apart from a happy new year and happy and healthy new year to everyone. And good luck to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

I would say to anybody who's had the patience to listen to our conversation, and especially listen to me, if you don't agree or you think I'm just a blabber mouth, that's fine. And I say that, you know, with respect to you. in the spirit of Aristotle, who said something like that it's the sign of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. So as long as you've listened, I thank you. Put a perfect bow on this conversation. Thanks again, man. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to

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