Happy Sad Confused - Vince Gilligan & Rhea Seehorn

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Vince Gilligan and cast of PLURIBUS including BETTER CALL SAUL's brilliant Rhea Seehorn gather with Josh to pull the curtain back on the new critically acclaimed show. UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Walker Scobell 12/19 in NYC -- ⁠Tickets here⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Say I Confused this episode. Let me introduce you to your new television obsession. We are talking to Pluribus with the cast, Rea Seahorn, and the creator, the one and only, Vince Gilligan. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of the podcast, whether you are enjoying this via YouTube or Spotify, however you're enjoying the pod.

I appreciate you guys. Thanks as always for tuning in. I'm so thrilled to share this episode. Vince Gilgan, never been on the show. Such a fan of his work. How can I not be? From The X-Files, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, and now Poribus, which if you know, you know, the reviews are in. This show, I feel very justified because I got a chance to watch some episodes of this very early on.

And I was like, this is awesome. Everyone's going to love this, right? Sure enough, everybody loves it. This is a conversation we recorded way back. when in October, around near Comic-Con, more on that in a second. First, I want to just tell folks about other things cooking in the Happy, Say, Confused Universe. As always, check out our Patreon. That's where you get all the early access, discount codes, merch, all that cool stuff. Patreon.com slash Happy, Sayer Confused. And we do have a lot going on, including events with

Brendan Fraser next week, first-time guest on the podcast. We are screening his new film, rental family, which is so sweet, delightful, Brendan, fantastic in it. And I'm so excited to chat about his entire career. That's going to be really special. And tickets are still available if you're in New York next week. Check it out. All the information, as always, is in the show notes. And then a little later on in a few weeks in December, if you have a Percy Jackson fan

in your life, this one's for you. Walker Scobel is going to be chatting with me. I've done a few events and conversations with Walker. And finally, I get them one-on-one for the new season of Percy Jackson. This is going to be a big one. Tickets are selling fast at the 9th Second Street-wise. So get your tickets now, if you can. Again, the information is in the show notes.

More events are coming up. I just can't announce them yet, but really cool stuff. Patreon.com slash happy, say I confused. You're one-stop shopping for everything that I do. Okay, a little bit more context. And then I'll dive into, I'll let you guys dive into this conversation. As I said, we recorded this. back at New York Comic-Con. It was actually a special screening of the first episode of

Poribus, which is the new series on Apple TV Plus. It is out in the world now. We screened the first episode early for these fans, and then we surprised them with three of the cast members of Plyubis, including the epically amazing Rea Seahorn. You know her and love her from her work in Better Call Saul. And this show is really formed around her by Vince Gilligan coming off of Better Call Saul as a vehicle for her. And she, just as you would expect amazing in it. You don't need to know much about the show. It's essentially, it's a high concept premise.

A little bit back to Vince's X-Files roots in that kind of feels like a Twilight Zone premise where Carol, this author that Rhea plays, is, turns out to be kind of one of the last human beings left on Earth in a way after a bit of a invasion from another species. So, yes, there is a big sci-fi element to this, but it is also very dramatic, very funny, very quirky. In other words, all the Vince Gilligan, you know, sensibilities come to play here. I immediately got hooked. This episode's probably best consumed after you see the first episode of the show. Not that we're not really spoiling anything too much coming up, but since this is a deep dive into the show, best to enjoy it that way.

And Vince, as you'll hear and see just like the sweetest, smartest, most interesting guy. And just to dive into his brain a little bit and see how he makes what he makes, a lot of fun. So anyway, without any further ado, I'm going to toss to myself. As I said, this was one of our live events at a theater in New York City before a audience who got a chance to see the first episode of Port of us. Check it out on Apple TV Plus and enjoy my conversation with Vince. with Raya, with two other fantastic actors from Purovis, and check out the show. Highly recommend it. Enjoy. Give it up for this amazing show, guys, from the mind of Vince Gilligan.

Come on. Did I not promise something special? This show so delivers. I've gotten a sneak peek of stuff to come afterwards. It just gets better and better. You guys are in for a treat. And you're in for a treat tonight, too, because you walked into not only this special advanced screening of Purobus, but also my podcast.

You're inside Happy Sack and Fuse. I'm Josh Horowitz, and I'm so thrilled. I'm going to be welcoming some amazing actors and amazing creative mind tonight to dive into the world of Purobis. I will say, you guys, like I said, you're kind of the first to see this, so don't spread the spoilers around, guys.

Don't spill the secrets of Purobis, okay? Do I have your promise? Yes? Okay, please give a warm welcome to these amazing actors to Miriam Shore. Miriam, come on out. to Carolina Wydra

Carolina come on out to Ray Seahorn Ray Seahorn everybody and we can't do this without Mr. Vince

Gilligan Vince come on out thank you that was nice that's a good start that was a great start congratulations guys This show has been very secretive.

Nobody knows anything about this show. Now they start to know about this show. Was that part of the design? Vince, did you want to keep this underwraps very specifically to kind of maintain the surprise for an audience? Yeah, very much so. And, Josh, thank you for what you said. Thank you guys for your discretion. I like it.

My favorite times I've ever seen a movie or a TV show. and I had all these great memories of times where I went into something completely cold. I remember one time I was going to go see a Clintieswood movie called White Hunter Blackheart and I get to the theater in Richmond, Virginia, and instead they say, oh, we got a surprise. We're not showing the movie you paid to see, you know.

And I'm all, God damn it. And then it was Miller's Crossing, which I knew nothing about a great movie. So stuff like that. I love and I tend to like things. to be spoiler-free. So, again, thank you guys for your discretion as far as not, you know, posting the whole totality of this thing on the Internet.

I appreciate that very much. It is a bit of a flex, I will say, that you're able to kind of, like, market a show just on Ray, on Vince, and our name Pluribus. That means, like, nothing to anybody on the planet, right? We're all Americans. We're all Americans. We're all Americans. So we're all Americans.

So was there a long list of titles? Was it always this title? It was the hardest damn thing coming up with the title for this. It took us two years. This was the hardest, single, longest titling, we're in a title desert for over two or three years trying to figure out. Is that true? More than Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad? Well, Better Call Saul was about the easiest one ever, right?

Have you seen Breaking Bad? What about Breaking Bad? Breaking Bad came pretty quick. And because it's an old expression growing up in, as you did, we both grew up in Virginia. I know, but I never heard. You never heard Breaking Bad? Did you guys hear that? No, I never heard that.

Well, the. I think you made this up. No, well, Zach Van Amberg and Jamie Ehrlich, who are our executives at Sony, who are now our bosses at Apple TV Plus, they said the same thing. They said, what the hell's breaking bad? and I said, well, it's an old Southern expression. It means to raise hell. Like, I really, you know, I really broke bad last night. I was down at the bar and I drank seven whiskeys and then I wound up in the back of a cop car.

I really, I was just really broke bad. And I thought everybody knew that and they said, no. And but, you know, they said, I think you need a better title. But we never, and then they never pressed me on it after that because, you know, But that one came pretty early in the process. Such a great title. Breaking Bad or Polarvus? Three for three.

Better calls all. They're all great. Well, that one was pretty easy. But you're being a Latin student is why you wanted pluribus, right? We had, we had a Latin audience. He just told me he took Latin last night. So that's why I'm asking. We had a list of, yes, it's five years of one.

How about the Latin students? Yeah, let's give it up for the Latin students. Yeah. But we had a list of nearly 100, maybe over 100 titles. The worst one of all, I can tell you, was be kind, remind. That was the shittiest one of all. I'm so sorry. For our show.

Would you, yeah, would you like be kind, remind? Would you have accepted the offer, apparently not to be kind. Yeah, that'd be a hard one. Yeah, would you try to get out of your contract? please anybody signs up her untitled Vince Gilligan project it doesn't matter guys okay does not matter very true do you guys do you guys hear that oh that's our podcast ruined brought to you by me your host intrepid horror movie freak hallie keever and me your resident scaredy cat alison liby join us each week as hallie forces me to listen to the twisted plot of yet another bone chilling horror movie from

Classics like The Exorcist and The Thing, the latest releases, to the most disgusting films on streaming. We ruin them all every Tuesday wherever you get your podcast. So come join us. And until then, we beg you, please keep it spooky. This podcast is dedicated to my younger self because she really needed it. She couldn't keep a man or a job. Welcome to Broglo Therapy. I'm your host, Stephanie Megan.

I'm your co-host, Rose McAlees. Every week we dive into dating, sex, and relationships. We are not professionals, but you bring professionals on the pod to give us some advice. Listen to brocotherapy wherever you love to listen to podcasts. Therapy is too expensive, but this podcast isn't. Broke, growth, growth, therapy. All right, so talk to me a little bit. Ray, when did you know that this was cooking?

At what point does... We were wrapping up better... Well, we had wrapped better calls all shooting. and I had gone back to Los Angeles they're still doing post and very fortunate that some people wanted to meet with me to talk to me about doing other shows

and stuff and they were all lovely and the scripts were lovely but I just thought like I mean I hope my writers and showrunners and directors and producers know that I would follow them anywhere I would do whatever they wanted to do

I'll do like five lines in the background part of that is the scripts that you might imagine they're you know they're the best you can get but it's also the environment that they surround you with everyone at their game props greenery sound like anybody you could pull aside and talk to them for five hours and learn something learn a lot then this third thing third rail I would say is whatever you guys do whatever you do or aspire to do If someone said, I'm going to give you a challenge, it's going to be something that's going to push you that's going to be one of the hardest things you've ever done, but you'll get better if you try. And then I tell you, when you go to the workspace that you're going to do this in, an office, a set, whatever, I want to give you 300 people that are like, you're going to do it, Ray. You're the person that can handle this. You're the person that's going to sort. I will not let you fall. that's what Vince employs around you and so I was kind of like

is there a way to stay on this set? So I started calling all of them and I called all of my writers and my producers and directors and when I got to Vince and Peter because you guys were together because you were doing post right? You were in the same room,

I know, you were together when I called. When you called for, I'm sorry, for when I gave you the script. Yeah, to ask like, Hey, I just want to be on your shows. Hey. And then Peter said, I would love to work with you. Absolutely.

But I really think Vince needs to say something. Right. You know, and I had told Melissa Bernstein, her wonderful executive producer, I said, can you kind of keep, not like a spy or something, but can you kind of keep tabs on Ray as this show is wrapping up? Please tell her if she's about to sign a big deal because I don't want to show her the script. because I, you read, I didn't really pitch it to you, just read, I'm sorry, I keep, it sounds like a beatboxing or something. You're doing great. It's really music. We're about to win American Idol is what I want you to know. But I wanted you to read the script because I'm a better writer than I'm a talker. But I do, it takes the time it takes to get it, you know, you only get one first read.

But then in the meantime, I told, I'd ask, Melissa, you know, you're talking to Ray a lot. If you hear she's going to sign. She's leaning toward taking another job. Please let me know. So that's how I remember it. And then you, and then when you read it, you were out, you were in the boonies somewhere without cell service, right? Yes. So I didn't have it. I then called Peter and Vince, and they were together. And I was like, hey, it should go without saying that I want to work with you guys, no matter what you do. But just in case it doesn't go without saying, I want to say, and Peter said, I totally want to work with you. I have stuff for you.

But I really think Peter Gould, I really think Vince needs to say something. And I was like, what? What's going on? And then Vince said, I'm a really bad impressionist. But you know people do impressions of you, right? Brian Craneson does one.

Does he do a good one? Highly offensive. Bob's is good. A lot of people do good ones. We like bad ones, though, right. Do you guys have a good one of him? I don't think I can do one, no. I don't think I can do any

No, okay. Okay, here's my shitty one. He goes, I wrote something for you if you're interested. Vince, is that you, Vince? That's even more offensive than Brian's. Brian's is all like slim pickings. Well, I don't know.

Oh, wow. Oh, really? Okay, yeah. I don't think you're that Southern. I'm just joking. That's adorable. But there's a lot of humility. And I was like, if you're interested,

what are you talking about? like of course I'm interested so yeah he just said I'm I wrote something for you if you're interested and I said then yes I'll do that uh when are we doing it I'm telling everybody else no and he's like well I'm not ready to give you the script and I said I don't care I don't care whatever you want whatever you want to do I'm on I'm on board whatever spaceship he's building I'm getting in and I feel like his fans feel that way are we getting at a spaceship that's not a spoiler that's not a spoiler that's not a spoiler but it's a metaphor it's all it's uh did you see pigs in space the Muppet thing?

Yeah, my favorite movie. It's a lot like that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Sorry, spoiler. Yeah, but I feel like if you ever, if you thought Vince was a genius, which we all do, then when the fact that he created a show for Ray makes you go, oh, yeah, I was right.

He's a genius because that's who I want to see. So you guys are new to the Vince family. Tell me, how does this script read? How does the log line read? Like, did you know what you were getting into right from the start or what? I didn't know. I got a secret audition of a scene that was

going to be something like, but you didn't like I didn't fake sides. Yeah, they were fake sides. Yeah, but I knew, I weirdly knew like, I got fake sides. What does that mean? What does that mean? They were like, we don't know. We don't know about her. Give her fake sides. But I knew what you wanted from. It was so clear. The writing was

still great. And then when I read the actual script, when I got, I didn't care. I was like, of course I'm going to be in whatever Vince Gilligan does. But then I read the script and I felt like that Vincent crawled inside my weird head and said like, I'm going to write the show for her. Look at all that weird stuff she's thinking about. Let me put that in a show and then put Ray in it. So I was like, this is the show I want to watch. Thanks for writing it. And thanks for putting me in it. Can you tell them what you said to Chris Carter years ago?

So embarrassing. Oh, yes. I was, I was doing one of the ones. She wanted to be on X-Files. Of course I wanted to be on the X-Files. I only learned this two nights ago. Of course I wanted to be on take of these is carolina lines she did a carolina line to chris no i said i i was doing one of the many failed sitcoms that no one's ever seen except my mom and um and she loved them but uh and i saw her carter on the lot and i love the x file so i went up to him and i was like oh chris just i just i'd do any i would bite the head off a chicken to be on that show and he just like that's what she said yeah i said it too and he backed away slowly yeah weirdly he didn't write me a roll where i got to bite So weird.

That feels like the X-Files, right? But no. Yeah. So I... If you had said that to me, I would... Thank you. Actually, that's how I got the job, guys. I, we were in an elevator.

I was like, I'll bite the head off a chicken to be on her show. Episode four. Yeah. I'll bite the head off a chicken. I'm actually going to do it at the end of this. So stay. Carolina, how many chickens' heads were bidden off to get your role in this one? A lot.

Yeah. A lot. You are so interesting. No, I didn't. but I had a fake name and I didn't know what when I first auditioned for it I had no idea what the show was about so I just went blindly into doing it and then once I did it I and the whole story is wild how it all came about and I put myself on tape then I days passed and I tested for it and I got the two scripts because I'm not in the first script and just reading the world and what Vince created was just just unbelievable. I was like, oh my God, this is so wild and so incredible. And then I tested for it and I met Ray and I was just, she was so incredible and so giving and so loving. And Vince was the same way. We sat around. We talked for a while and it all just, yeah, it was really a special

experience. Like Vince has a reputation for being the nicest man I think in show business. Do you know that? Yeah, and it's true. It's just so kind, you guys. So kind. It makes you feel so welcome. And Ray, you're the same way. Yeah, it's bizarre. You're bizarrely kind. It's like. I'm getting asshole vibes.

Yeah, no, you, right. That's an act he puts on for you guys. But no, it's such an amazing set. Like, every single person there is respected. You two guys fit right in. And just, you're so wonderful. Both of you, says you can tell for watching the two episodes. Thank you.

And, no, you guys fit right in. You're just, we, we actually do, with any, any role, we, you know, big large or small. These are large ones, but even the small ones we do as much due diligence as we can. And that's even for behind the camera, you know, folks working on the show. We, you know, we ask around and we just, you know, want to adhere to a strict no-asshole policy. And so that's important. Everybody, starting from you and Ray, everyone is just so kind and so wants to be there, everyone that's on set the crew members

like the cast loves each other so much in this like true genuine love for one another and it's so supportive and it's just such a beautiful family to be a part of you know I feel so blessed thank you Vince for making me part of this family because it's really special

it's one of a kind you don't even get this often you know it is definitely a unique place to work it really is and everybody's been with you for so many years since Breaking Bad and everyone keeps coming back to work with Vince because of who you are, your genius writing, all of all that, but who you are as a person, what you bring to the table.

People want to do their best work and they want to do even better because you're like, you want to make sure that Vince is happy, you know? And it's such a great, it's such a great creative experience. You know, you want to do your best and even better and better and better and challenge yourself to do the best that you can and push yourself. and everyone does that, everyone on set. It's incredible. Yeah, like kind and nice,

and then what is going on in your head that you create these incredibly insane worlds where, like, the worst things happen. It's amazing. Let's get into that insane mind because now we can start to talk about the concept of the show. This audience has seen the first two episodes

we're running this podcast after the first two... Thank God because I need to talk about it. No one has seen it and we don't get to talk to anybody. Let's get it out. Get it out of your system, Ray. Talk to me a little bit about just the basic concept behind this, because this does seem to be like an accumulation of all your experiences. We talk about the X-Files. You obviously, you grew up a sci-fi kid, and there's

that tendency in you, but it has the funny, quirky, dark humor that we've seen in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but it also feels very reflective of the times we're living in. I don't know, just give me a sense of sort of like how you cook this one up and how far, what's the germany idea that spawns this? I'm slower than mud, so if it seems really true. timely, and that's completely up to you guys, the audience, the audience everywhere to infer what you will and to find thematically what you choose to find. And I'm all for that because I think once we make this thing, it's up to the audience to evaluate it and dissect it and with any show,

not just this one. But I'm very slow. And the germ of this idea came to me somewhere around eight or maybe even eight, nine, ten years ago. We were working on Peter Gould and I had just started Better Call Saul, and we're having a great time working on it. And we'd take these long lunch breaks from the writer's room, and I'd walk around Toluca Lake, California, near our offices. And I started kind of daydreaming about this story about a guy who everybody's really, really nice to him, and everybody is really solicitous.

They do anything for this guy. They just love them, unconditionally. I mean, anybody, men, women, anybody on earth. And that intrigued me, and I didn't know what the hell reason people would be so nice to this one guy for. So that's, you know, I don't know where that idea came from, but I enjoyed daydreaming about it. And then I was thinking, well, is this two hours worth of story? Is it 100 hours worth of a story? Meaning, is it a movie?

Is it a TV series? Or maybe it's a mini-series somewhere in between the two? And as I started to put a little flesh on the bones, which is just, it takes a long time, at least for me, it took months. But as this was happening, the wonderful good fortune on my part is, as I said, we're working on Better Call Saul. And Peter and I and all of our writers and all the crew, everybody involved in that show, it just loves Ray Seahorn. She just, I got, because the first time I had ever worked with her, and first time Peter had worked with her, all of us and all the other actors, Bob Odenk, everybody, and I thought to myself, I wonder, it doesn't have to be a guy who's getting treated well by everybody. Amen. I'm sorry, don't say that out loud.

True, true. I can hear you. Do I do that thing where my brain talks out my mouth? Okay. I really, I start with character typically. And I'm not really, I don't really, I'm not looking to have an ax to grind typical. Like with Breaking Bad when it came out, talking to all the reviewers who are all very, very nice about it. But there's so many questions about, oh, this is obviously an indictment of the health care system of the United States.

And I was like, nah, it's just about a guy who cooks crystal meth. So, I don't. Sometimes it is just what it is. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. So when you read this part, what turned. into Carol. I mean, what a delicious part to dive into. The juxtaposition of this pretty miserable human being surrounded by this insane world event and everybody being insanely nice to her, driving her insane. I mean, give me a sense of just sort of what you made of her right from

the start and what's been the pleasure of playing her in this first season. We were in an interview yesterday, Vince and I, and they were asking about, and I've been asked many times like, what do you mean by this tagline the most miserable person on earth. Is she really the most miserable person on earth? This is so obvious that you guys all got it. I didn't because I'm that dense. You said in the new world, she's the most miserable person, which is fair. Absolutely a fair assessment. It still was part of what I was thinking from the beginning of like this misanthrope. When I read the pilot, that's the first script I got. It's the only script I had for a long time. And if you you guys had only seen the pilot, that is a little bit of a separate show.

It starts to dovetail and where we will go, but you know what I mean, but like the physical threat changes to a psychological threat and you kind of start to understand the humor and the other stuff we will explore. So I was reading that and I was like, oh, this is incredible. And it's also like, it's physically demanding. It's emotionally demanding. then I get the second script and I was like, oh, we're, this isn't what I thought it was going to be.

It's going to be this and it's going to be that. And then it's not that. It's not that. And we keep exploring it, which I knew Vince would do because he does that and he loves to do that. But then I got so excited and then I got so scared. I was like, wait, he thinks I can do this. It's hilarious sometimes. And then it is like gut-wrenchingly.

painful and then it's psychological and I was like oh then there's we can't give us spoilers right not past two you can talk about the first two but oh okay um and

I'm fine in it right yeah I do okay um but I didn't get to see the end no one tell Miriam okay this is all I will say is like it keeps going every time these tropes and these ideas the same as for you as the audience is the same for me as the actor where I was like,

I think I know where it's going. You might feel the same. And then it changed. It just kept shifting. And I understand a lot of the themes and points of reference. It's bringing up. And believe me, I stayed up late at night. And Caroline and I did.

Miriam and I did. Our crew did. There are big questions to grapple with. but one of my favorite things about the show of among many is that it's the human nature question that's at the heart of it the whole time, you know, like what what does being happy mean? What does being content actually mean?

What does your success mean? How do you define success? How do you define love? How do you, like Carol, yeah, she's the most miserable person now, but she was actually miserable before because she wouldn't even take in what was bringing her joy

before. That was me. So I was playing Miriam earlier. No, no, like she's the buffer, right? She's a success. She's a successful author that is just hollow inside, clearly.

There's a hole. Hollow or, we talked about this a lot about like, why does she hate her fans so much, right? Yeah. And we talked about it and I was, Vince told me, rightfully. So, she doesn't hate them,

she hates herself. Right. Right. And I've always thought as an actor, it's terrifying to think, if you believe them when they say, you're great, you have to believe them

when you say, you're a piece of shit. I love to say, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's very scary. And, and also, we still haven't,

we didn't look it up. Is it Groucher Marx? Or Woody Allen that says, like, you don't want to be a member of a club that wants you as a member? I feel like it's Woody that, reference groucho marks.

I think it's Roucher originally. That's an original groucho. And Woody would always reference I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were right. I thought it was the opposite.

You know what? That's the point of this entire post-show to question. That you won? You won the anecdote of the story? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't think I answered your question other than... We answered some questions, those were great, though.

Okay, thanks. You win. I was shitting my pants. That's the answer to my question. You did great. Thank you so much. That's annoying. What?

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Conditions apply. From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death. I'm your host, Roz Hernandez, and I'll be guiding guests through the creepy questions and chaotic games, all to win the ultimate title of horror movie champion.

Listen to Tickled to Death, wherever you get your podcasts, and hit follow, unless you want the show to follow you. All of these roles present, great challenges. Carolina, I mean, this is a challenging role. This is an interesting person. I don't know. What do you call these

the people that have been? The others. Is that what we're calling them? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, the others. Yeah. So is there a guide to playing the others that Vince gave you, like in terms of like attitude, how happy to be, how positive to be? Yeah. I think we work with the

how, I mean, Vince would push me to go further and further. into that world of happiness and we would discuss it on set and sometimes you would say and that's the genius of Vince writing because he sees things in the way you're like, am I going too far as it's going to be too far

but there's so much humor in it you know and it's just there's in the first scene where you see me meet Carol there's just so much humor in it and just yeah so we just like we would talk about

who are these people and you know the contentment the happiness that what they're experiencing, how, you know, being, having the whole world in your mind, having muscle memory to do any task. So it was challenging and also not reciprocating any empathy as far as, you know, acting and reacting with Ray

when she's having her feelings, just holding space for Carol the character and having her go through her journey and holding space for her and knowing that once she comes to our side, she will understand how good this is. Right. Right.

So it's just such opposing views. Carol. Like shut up all your instincts as an actor. Absolutely. Absolutely. All the time. And there was moments where also, you know, in my first days on set,

you have, you know, your first day jitters, you know? And it's like, well, this character doesn't have that. You know, normally, like, give it to your character, whatever you're feeling, whatever you're experiencing. And I was like, ah, you can't do that. So you have to feel confident and powered and all these things. You couldn't be a neurotic mess. You couldn't be a neurotic mess because you're like, that's just not my character.

Yeah, that's just not my character. I'm just at peace. But yeah, it was a great challenge and just trusting and the whole experience. And I mean, as you guys saw, I did Taxi a C-130, Hercules. No big deal. No big deal. But that was for real, you guys. I actually did taxi the C-130.

Like, for real. Yep. Which was pretty epic. You know, when do you get to do that? The Albuquerque Airport, that's for real. There is a fair bit of CG in this show and in subsequent episodes. But when you're looking out the window, the side cockpit window, and she's taxing it through the actual Albuquerque airport ramp. that's she's really doing that yeah i'm using the wheel to actually taxi the plane which is

what could go wrong yeah nothing it's a good still to have going forward isn't it yeah we got an extra thousand bucks worth of insurance that day so so it's great to like you know do a lot of rehearsals even like the the scene with the excavator being able to operate that i had to know how to operate it perfectly so when you get on it it's not like i have a manual like oh, okay, this button, oh, let me, you know, look at Google, you know, whatever, and YouTube and practicing that and what that is, how that lives in my body, just when you get on, whatever you do, you're just an expert, a perfect, at whatever it is. So that was a lot of fun, you know, being able to practice these things and a lot of great things.

But I was going to say, to celebrate what she did, if you think about the way we, as humans, we mirror each other, right? Like, if somebody, if you're talking to your friend and she starts to get sad, you become sad. If she takes it in a conversation, in the direction of like an argument, then you do that. You elevate or escalate to where they're arguing. She's not allowed to do that. I'm screaming at her. And she's not allowed to mirror that, which is not only the human reciprocity. It's the actor's reciprocity. But you can't look high as a kite. You can't look stone. You can't look like a robot. Please don't look stupid. Be smart.

He intelligent taken in, and they were all dialing the send, Vince Gordon Smith, Alice and Tatlock, like the murderers row that you had behind you. It was a group effort. I watched this person dial it in, and I'm so in awe of what you did. But very hard job, deceptively, very difficult job. Thank you. Thank you. Having us a partner was everything. It was a gift of gifts.

Miriam's job was easy. Let's ask her questions. No, but I mean, the challenge for your relationship, the two of you, to establish, you know, we go into this show and there's obviously a long history there that you have to convey right from the beginning. I mean, who is Helen to Carol in your mind and how do you, I don't know, convey so much so quickly? Well, I don't know. You all fell deeply in love with Ray, right? Like that's not hard to do. And I feel like when we work together, we were like, oh, so we're just best friends who haven't met yet.

Like that was what that already felt like. This is just a phenomenal actress who makes everything you have to do easy. She's so generous. And there was space provided for us to learn to feel like a couple. And the writing is so good. And everything was there to help you do the best you could possibly do, including to have this person who I would love to have my – I'm proposing to you right now. Is that weird?

I should tell my husband. Someone call my husband. Will you – no, can tell her any. No. she made it easy the the writers made it easy the whole environment made it easy and it's fun it's it's you're doing what we love to do which is play make believe just create a story and the story doesn't work if this relationship you know that loss needs to matter right and so you feel like oh i have the job that is really precious because i believe in this show and i have we have we have

have to do this. We have to build this together. So it was fun and scary and wonderful. And, you know, it's one of my best relationships, really. You guys did such an amazing job. So you were adorable together, right? From like the first afternoon you guys met, right? It was like, yeah. It was really weird. We clicked so fast. Click so fast. 80s music was a huge part of it. Yeah. Well, in any relationship, really. But we did know. We knew as actors, like, and I talked to you about this too. Like, this has to sustain the grief of losing her best friend, her partner, love of her life, also her buffer to business and social world is gone and it has to inform everything. And there are many decisions that my character makes for multiple episodes that

are based in that grief. And so we talked about that, even in the scene where, I lose you, it's like it had to be, it had to be hard. It could not be just cinematic because it does, it has to live in our memory. Yeah. For a lot, for a long time. And also if in some ways, Helen's the conduit for Carol's happiness in some way, she's sort of. Really for her career and mine.

Well, yeah, but also, you know, she won't allow her to close herself off from what's beautiful about the world and what there is to love about the world. And so Helen, you know, is just... And her character is bringing you up when she's like, can we find your joy again? It's very

I think sinister of Carolina and shitty. Wow. Sorry. Well, that love affair ended. Oh, well. I do also appreciate, by the way, as someone that's covered like Twilight and Outlander, the profession that you gave her in that world. I don't know.

where you, how you landed on that of all professions, Vince? I love that so much. Yeah, how'd you pick that? I don't really, I know, I was definitely not putting them down or anything. It just, it's always the question everybody asks, where do you get to, where do the ideas come from? And the answer is always deeply unsatisfying because the honest answers, I don't know, it just, it felt like, I mean, in a weird way, I mean, I'll admit this much. I think in a weird way, uh, uh, Carol Sterka. by the way, named after Carol Burnett, one of her favorite people.

Oh, my God, legend. Yeah. And a character name from Twilight Zone, an episode of my favorite show, arguably my favorite show ever. It was a Fritz Weaver character in an episode called Third Planet from the Sun, I think. But his last name was Sturka, and I just liked the name, and I looked it up online, and I didn't see any reference to it except for Twilight Zone. So I just say, it sounds good. But, and I, I, it's, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, it's, I'm, it's, it's, gave us, given us, given us wonderful lives. The, uh, when Carol, kind of shits on her profession, uh, you know, uh, performatively.

I think, first in the car, she's being driven away from the Barnes & Noble. And then in the bar, it is. It's this thing about, this is so good. The way I see it, it's like, this is so good. I'm just afraid it's going to go away like that. And so I got to inoculate myself. I have to prophylactically act like it doesn't matter in case it does all disappear. So the writer part of it came first, but then the Romantici author part of it.

just seems like a more fun profession with with with fun fans and whatnot i i guess that's where it came from yeah talk about the fans i mean obviously you know breaking bad better call sol i would imagine they're they're part of your lives almost every day if not every day fans want to reference them to you i mean what does that feel like these these are shows that didn't just come and go they still live very much in people's hearts and minds um what does it mean to you when fans come up quoting the show, showing you fan art. I mean, I'm sure it continues. It means the world.

I mean, I just, people think I'm being all shucks when I say I didn't know breaking band would be a hit, but I mean, we just did not. I mean, I just, the best, once the show was ordered, which blew my mind, or rather, once the pilot, it, you know, it all happens in steps. And once a pilot was ordered, I thought, this is going to be great because they're going to let me, I don't know how, why, they're going to let me direct the pilot, breaking bed and I'm going to have this great calling card. I'm going to do my best I could do on it and I'll have this 48 minute calling card I can use to get jobs. And I'm not, that was for real.

Seriously, that was the highest I could imagine this thing could because it's like, who the hell's going to watch this thing? And then, I mean, I still feel like I got to pinch myself and see if I'm dreaming. It still blows my mind to this day. that hasn't changed. And, yeah, I mean, you just, you just, for the writers in the room, the folks who want to, who want to do this job, more power to you, and go down swinging on stuff you believe in because there is more failure than success. And a lot of people tell you, don't, don't write about thus and so.

That was so 2018 or don't, don't do this thing. Don't do this genre. Everybody's over that. A much better writer than I said. famously, nobody knows anything, William Goldman, and he was 1,000% right. And it's going to hurt when you get kicked in the teeth, and it will happen more often than not. You might as well, and it's going to hurt a little more if you really care about the thing you're working on, but you might as well go down swinging on the thing you care about.

And that's my advice. 100%. And for you, Ray, I mean, Kim. probably still comes up again probably every day what does it tickle you i mean the fact that that character cut through the way it did and still does must still boggle your mind it does i i i'll try and uh not to cry she will always hold a place in my heart and um i i like like vince when he's writing stuff and peter gould when he's writing stuff it's not setting out to preach something or do something and I do think and I've been doing what I do for a very long time

with incredible people around me. I've had mostly exceptional experiences but something happened on Better Call Saul where at some point I think it was Peter that said to me I was doing some some scene with Bob and he's doing something idiotic as he does and my can character is angry and she should be. I did the scene. We rehearsed the scene and he loved it and we're getting ready to film it. And then when we went to shoot the first take, at the very end, I did like a right smile at the end to let the character know, I still got you. I'm fine. And Peter said, why do you? I don't think we need that. And I was like, oh, oh, I was just trying something. And then I just told them the truth, which was scary for me.

And I said, I thought, and this is no offense to the other shows I've done. It's just about we all have to know what show you're in. What audience are you doing a farce? Are you doing Black Park Theater? Are you doing network? We're all doing different things. They're all, I would never be pejorative. I'm very proud of some of the things that I've done.

But they are different venues. They are different. beast. He said, why are you doing that? And I said, I guess just to let him know, like, I'm not mad, I'll still be back. And Peter, I think it was Peter, said, as long as you have your own code of ethics and stick to it, we will love you for that. Please don't ever worry about being likable. And it was this release to me as an actress. I was like, what?

You're like deprogrammed right there. Like what are you talking about? Like really because for 25 years I've been told I'd be likable. Yeah. And then I got to tell you, if you build it, they will come. That's how smart everybody is watching television. Like I thought like I had to and you don't spoon feed people. And I was like, oh.

And then suddenly I'm playing this character that often my closest confidence, was the audience because I wasn't speaking but Kim had thoughts and the only person in the room that knew what I really thought about the dumbasses that were talking to me was the audience only them they were my confidant and it just became this incredible relationship and to this day when I walk around and I meet anybody on the street and it's like a the other day it meant 16 year old skater dude Tad it up and he's like Whitzler! Skating through

the lights and then it's like you know a 70 year old mom like in like scrubs and she's like you meant so much to me I will never get over what this character meant to so many people male and female and just this idea of like pull yourself up from your

bootstraps and like what if you didn't have to be likable what if you tried to get head and people kept shoving you down like it's just it's I will never go to it's meant the world to me and I hope they follow me in this one and I know that Vince meant to write this character and one of the things I'm trying to bring from Kim and this is a very different character is that license that Vince and Peter gave to me is like if I'm just true to it and I don't try to be likable and I don't try

to be cute and I'm definitely not cute I know you're for the first two episodes what if i'm just as honest as i can be and it gets really really scary and i'm 53 and i was just given a lead by the top television producer in the world what if that's okay and what if still there's going to be a 16-year-old skater that identifies with the universal things we're supposed we're trying to say about human nature so that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. You're succeeding.

That was awesome, man. Amazing. Bravo. Do you guys see why I found love with her? Come on. This time flew by, guys. Let's tease a little bit. So there's a lot more to come.

And the good news is there's going to be a second season. It's already been green lit. That's what we heard. Thank you, Sony and Apple TV Plus. Thank you. Is there anything you want to tease about, you know, past episode two? Vince, do you want to tell us what happens in season two? Wait, is season two the musical episode?

Yes, and there's a lot of flashbacks about my wife, right? Yep, my wife. You heard it, you heard it, you heard wooes. They're demanding it. Brownswell. Demanding it. I'm sorry, it's not coming from me. You know, I love what you said earlier.

You know, there are, the show is intended to continue to surprise you. And hopefully it will, that is our deep intention. And we get a lot of, oh, yeah, I don't. Hannah, I can't give away much. I'm really proud of this show. It's got some crazy shit in it. It's got some really dark moments and really dramatic moments. And then as you've seen, you know, examples of already.

It just suddenly turns on a dime and it's funny as hell. And then it gets dramatic again. And it's so elastic this show. And I don't, it's a credit to these ladies and to some other actors you have. And to Samba Chut. who is Mr. Diabate, who is so much fun. I love that guy. He's on, he's got Air Force Cumba, as you've seen.

And he calls it Air Force Cumba. That's right. And, and Carlos Manuel Veska. Boy, I can't wait until you meet him. He is frigging awesome. And all these actors are so great. And all this wonderful things, these ladies said. about me. God bless you, but it was

very much a group effort, and I have a bunch of really wonderful writers. They've really delivered, and I don't know, I can't give away much, but it endeavors to be a very different kind of TV show. Can I say as a fan of it, that I appreciate

watching a show that is, that asks me to come to it with conversation, asks me to think about what it's saying, I don't just sit back, I was saying this to you earlier, I don't just sit back and stuff food in my face. I mean, I still stuff food in my but and let it happen to me I'm being asked to engage to question and to to come up with my own hypotheses about what's being shown to me and my own feelings about it and I'm I'm activated by

it I was really excited by that it's definitely a conversation starter yeah we did a lot of that on set but what if it this and that and and dissected and yeah it was just I'm here for shows that make you write a dissertation after every episode right watch it and just forget about it you actually want to talk about it and, you know, have a conversation. I was like, I feel like it's so amazing forward television versus sit back. And believe me, I sit back. Anybody like below deck?

I love that show. But I'm just saying like, oh, I got to pay attention. Like, I don't know. I enjoy that. I think one of the things that you've always done well is rewarding. First of all, you assume the intelligence of the audience. And then secondly, you reward it. So if you're watching and you're like, I don't understand what just happened.

It's not because like, oh, they didn't, I think they missed something. There was a plot hole or the character wasn't directable. It's like, no, I'm just supposed to keep watching. Like, there's a payoff for this. So that's always great. I think it's fun. It's off to an amazing start. We're going to stick around for another hour to talk below deck.

If anybody wants to stick around, Ray's going to run. I will 100% do that. I'm not going anywhere. Vince has no idea what below deck is. I can promise you. I've heard of it. I've heard it. I don't, I don't know what happens, but it's, is it, is it, is it start? I don't know. Guess what happens? They sleep together. Sam, I'd watch that. So, so Josh, uh, happy, sad, confused. What, which one?

All of the above. That's the perfect title for this show. It kind of is. Poribis works too. That's his podcast. Congratulations, guys, on the show. And so ends another edition of Happy. be sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there. People.

Lean in. Get close. Get close. Listen, here's the deal. We have big news. We got monumental news. We got snack-tacular news. After a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back.

My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I, are coming back to do what we do best. What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack. And to rate a snack. Nemptively. Emotionally? Spiritually.

Mates is back. Mike and Tom eat snacks. Is back. A podcast for anyone with. With a mouth. With a mouth. Available wherever you get your podcasts.