Happy Sad Confused - Warren Beatty

Episode Date: November 17, 2016

A veritable legend visits “Happy Sad Confused” this week.  The story of American moviemaking and celebrity in the 20th century would be woefully incomplete without a chapter devoted to Warren Beatty. He’s counted John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan as friends. He was trained by Stella Adler, discovered by Elia Kazan, battled with studio heads, flirted with running for public office, and was perhaps the last person to see Marilyn Monroe alive. Beatty is a delightful set of contradictions. He’s a charming storyteller who hasn’t done interviews in nearly 20 years. He’s a self-admitted control freak who talks endlessly about how much he values collaboration. He’s a quintessential hunky leading man with the soul of a comedian. Beatty is back in the public eye with “Rules Don’t Apply” (out November 23rd), a dramedy set in the waning days of the studio system and just as the sexual revolution was about to transform America.  The film stars Beatty as Howard Hughes alongside Lily Collins and Alden Ehrenreich. This chat goes everywhere, from Beatty’s uneasy relationship with celebrity, why he turned down such classics as “The Godfather”, “Kill Bill”, “Boogie Nights” and “Superman”, to his take on the state of politics and the film business today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This week, a true legend, Warren Beatty, one hour with the iconic actor, filmmaker, and activist. I'm Josh Horowitz with me, as always. Hi. Is Sammy. You knew your cue so well. Hi. Because I started gesturing to you frantically. Well, yeah, you had your hand an inch from my face.

No, it was like six inches at least. Yeah, I exaggerated. Thanks for tuning in, as always, guys, to the podcast. We're going to get to Warren Beatty in a second. I do want to mention, just because every. everybody's talking about it. It's very much like on my mind and everybody's mind. This is our first podcast post-election. And this is not a political podcast. That being said, I think a lot of me comes through the conversations. So it's fair to say that for the next four years, you're going to hear my thoughts on the presidency and the fact that we're dealing with a president that I don't have much faith in. And I certainly didn't vote for. And it's it's an upsetting time for a lot of people. That being said, some, some of you listeners may support him. That's fine.

That's your right. You can listen to me or not listen to me. That's up to you. I would say that like a lot of people in the last week or so, I've been vacillating between great despair and anger and anger and pockets of hope and enthusiasm. I think one of the positives I'm taking about out of this experience is I've always been a somewhat political person, somewhat, you know, I consider myself a liberal. but this election and these events have kind of like energized me. And I certainly for myself, feel it incumbent upon me to use whatever powers I have for good. And that means, you know, shouting from the rooftops when I see things that don't make sense, appointments that don't make sense, hateful figures like a Steve Bannon who is potentially part of the White House who runs.

Just mind-boggling. So, I mean, all I'll say is, you know, it's, again, all are welcome to this podcast. But if you are frustrated, if you are not supportive of this president, I mean, he's our president. I'm not denying him that. But I think it's incumbent on all of us to speak up more than ever and to donate your time, your money, your energy to organizations that can help. NRDC is a great environmental group, the Natural Resources Defense Council, the ACLU. You know, these are going to be more vital than ever in the next four years. Planned parenthood.

I mean, and also, you know, the media. I mean, get a subscription to the New York Times guys, support, you know, these organizations that are that are speaking truth to power. So that's my rant. But you know what? Yeah. We've gotten two good things that have come our way this week, you know? What are the two good things? The things are dark, but there have been two blessings.

Okay. One, friend of the family, friend of the show. Dwayne the Rock Johnson has been named sexiest man. Alive. We always knew it. I mean, between you and me, we've always referred to him as the sexiest man alive. That's sort of feel justified in that. It makes me feel like I'm not crazy.

Some good is happening in the world. Yeah. And then also, you have Warren Beatty on the podcast. And I will say, yes, segueing into this. And there's an accurate segue or an apt one in that Warren Beatty has been a very fervent political figure throughout the years. He was a friend to JFK. I mean, he was he campaigned hard for George McGovern. He's forded with running for elected office himself.

We talk a little bit about that in the conversation. This was a huge bucket list interview for me. I know I've said that probably about some people, but you've had some good people. Yeah, but I mean like invariably over the last few years when people have asked me who I've never interviewed before, Warren Beatty was at the top of the list. And partially because he hasn't really done any interviews in about 20 years. He's back in the public eye because he's returned to filmmaking with his first film. since Bullworth, way back when, and it's called Rules Don't Apply, and it opens next week, and it stars him as Howard Hughes, and it stars Lily Collins and Alden Aaron Reich, and it's

kind of a dromedy set in the waning days of the Hollywood Studio System, and as the sexual revolution is about to get going, and it's kind of like the conflict of those two worlds, and it's funny, it's dramatic, it's got an amazing ensemble, and it's well worth your time. I would heartily recommend it. As for Warren Beatty himself, this guy is a fascinating character. He kind of is one of those, like, figures like a, like a Muhammad Ali or something that stands for the 20th century. So he walks in the room and like, what's it like? Well, I mean, it's, it's, he's a, he's a massive contradictions.

This is a consummate talker with more stories than anybody on the planet. Yet he is a near recluse and has, as I said, hasn't talked publicly for nearly 20 years. He's, you know, he's a family man has been married for 25 years to Annette Benning and has four kids and is very proud of them. yet is like notoriously like the faint most famous like lethario in Hollywood history um he's like has leading man looks but he like likes to play the buffoon in movies like he's a very and he's a very intelligent guy um he he's a challenging interview um for for some and and and at times for me in that he weighs his words very carefully he knows they have power he knows they can be taken out of context he's been in the game but he's also perfectly polite perfectly sweet and and never

if he doesn't want to answer a question he'll simply say I don't know or whatever and just move on. So this was a fun challenge for me, and we really cover a ton in this conversation. Of course, rules don't apply. His beginnings, you know, being directed by Ilya Kazan and through Bonnie and Clyde and then into the many films, frankly, that he's turned down over the years. Did you know he was offered the godfather? No.

And Kill Bill. No. Boogie Knights. Oh, I wish he took them. Yeah, I know. Kind of me too. I mean, they all worked out well. And he talks very candidly about why he didn't take any of those films.

And Superman, too. Superman, the original Superman he was offered. So, yeah, a lot of crazy stories. This was a true pleasure and an honor to have Warren Beatty on. Check out Rules Don't Apply when it opens next week. This doesn't happen very often. So I'm very privileged that he came by to chat. Enjoy a solid, a full-throated hour.

You got an hour of Warren Beatty coming at you guys. Real deal. I hope you enjoy it. And we'll see you next week. with someone. Now we have to live up to Warren Beatty. Sorry.

This is the last one. Bye guys. We're done. No, we'll be back. Enjoy. Enjoy. office to tell them you quit. Short got the boogie,

then you boogie, wooge to the elevator as the boogie, woogey-wugies after you begging. Please, take me with you. The electrified Jeep Grand Cherokee four by E. Learn more at jeep.com. Jeep is the registered trademark of FCA, US LLC. I'm telling Warren Beatty what to do for a change because you're usually the director,

the captain of your own ship. It's very kind of you. Welcome to my podcast, my little old podcast. It's, it's nothing short of thrilling to be. He's like, in case you thought he missed a step in his acting ability, clearly he's a consummate actor because he sold that line. So this is exciting. Rules Don't apply as the film. And it's interesting to me that you've really put yourself out there in a big way.

Like we hadn't seen you talking to folks like me to the media for close to 20 years. Has this been an enjoyable experience? Has it been a different kind of experience? To run around doing this kind of thing? It's a little bit like being with George McGovern in New Hampshire and Wisconsin. in 1972. It's kind of fun. Okay. Yeah. Does you feel like the process from your vantage point has changed significantly in terms of the way media covers film, the way the kind of press that you do, or does it feel

similar to what you were doing on the last go-around for Bullworth? No, I don't. I don't think it was. By the way, did I do this kind of thing for Bullworth? I don't. I mean, to a degree we were talking before we started, you did the Charlie Rose show and like some things. He probably didn't do as Yeah, were there certain things that you did. I didn't used to do any of this much. I would do it as a political activist. Right. But to sell a movie, I always found it a little, I don't know.

I don't know. Something unsavory about it a little bit? No, no, I wouldn't say unsavory. I'd say transparently self-aggrandizing and inflating. Well, and it's interesting also. You were at the kind of the apex of like a shift in the way movies were marketed, or when I think of Dick Tracy, for instance. Dick Tracy kind of came, like, in the wake of Batman, which kind of started, I think,

the merchandising boom, et cetera. And you guys, I feel like, I mean, I remember at the time, the posters, the toys, the video games, did that sit, was that, did that feel okay for you, given the material? Yeah, that was fine. Yeah. That was fine. Yeah. But, you know, I go back a lot further than that.

Sure. There was a time when there was some effort to be tasteful. Yes. For those with good memories, yes. Yeah, well, yeah. Do you, at this point, do you remember what it's like to be anonymous, to not be recognized? Anonymity is a difficult thing to regain. I think not possible.

fact. Well, let's hope it's not possible, I guess, is the better way to say it. So your question was, do I remember it? Yeah. Anonymity? Yeah. Yeah, sure. And do you, do you, I would assume it's, it's not a useful tactic to lament the loss of it decades on into a successful career. But are there things that along, when you, when you became famous with Splendor in the Grass, that you immediately missed. Well, there's something that I'd like about, there's something to,

it has its good things and it has its bad things. Anonymity, the loss of anonymity does bring you a kind of access. Sure. That it wouldn't have brought you before. But then, but then if I would think back at the earliest moments, I remember walking out.

out of a hotel when I was suddenly being whatever you call it when you got into your first movie and the movie happened to be whatever, a hit, you know. And I walked out of the hotel on my way to, across the sidewalk to get into a limo. And there were a group of young women standing there. And there was one in particular who thought, oh, you're Warren Beatty. You're Warren Beatty. And I said, yes, yes, I am. She said, I can't believe it.

And I said, well, she said, I can't believe it. You're nothing. And I thought, hmm, okay, that was like 22 or something like that. It was kind of a learning moment, you know? Five seconds of bliss. It didn't affect me too negatively. I got into the car and I thought, oh, I get it. I get it.

This is mixed. This is mixed. And, yeah, that's, yeah. But it does, as I said, give you access, which is a great gift. Yeah. So I've taken the opportunity when I knew I was going to talk to you to rewatch many, if not most of your films, which has been a distinct treat. Thank you. Are you a reflective person?

Do you ever, if one of your films is on TV, do you? I think you're saying, am I a narcissistic person? Well, I'm trying to start off in a nice way. I would say that I'm in the norm. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So one of the films that I rewatched recently that I loved at the time and I still love to this date is Ishtar.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's a very funny movie which had a very, very strange. The company that financed Ishtar changed hands exactly at that moment. and there was a wish to make the previous management look bad. And that's, rather than dwell on it, I'll just leave it at that. But it's a movie, you know, Elaine May is as good as they come. And someday people will actually see that movie. Well, I think there's already a core group of us.

And I think it's growing, frankly. hopefully, like a virus. Yes. And I think, like the first act of that film, for instance, I would say is as good as any comedy that I love. Like, especially before you guys go off on your adventure, the rest is good too, I like. But I think you and Dustin and your, and this is a recurring theme, I think, throughout your career, your willingness to look like an idiot. Yes. Yes.

It's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. Do you? Like that. Mm. These are sitting in judgments. Yes.

Yes. One thing that also struck me about watching that film is, you know, it's clearly a film that recalls the Hoping Crosby films of the day. And a film that loves kind of old Hollywood. And your new film, Rules Don't Apply, would seem to have, convey an affection, a complicated, maybe affection for old Hollywood. Like, it seems like in watching the movie, there's certainly a nostalgia that's, also colored with some complexity, given the sexual politics of the time. Yeah. Well, for me, the movie in its evolution became very much about the hypocrisy of American sexual Puritanism of that period,

which was beginning to erode with the advent of the increased. of feminism in the late 50s and then in the early 60s, and the mid-60s, which of course led to what we've grown to call the sexual revolution of the 1960s. But that continues to evolve, and more and more we are less the laughingstock of France or other countries. Your performers, your two lead performers in the film who are both exceptional, Alden-Ehrn Reich and Lily Collins, obviously born far. after the events that you talk about, did you kind of have to educate them to a degree in terms of what that environment was like?

Well, first of all, they're both smarter than I am, but there were certain things I did inform them of, but also there is something that's deep within the American psyche that has to do with probably the Massachusetts Bay Colony and Jamestown, Virginia, etc. because this Puritanism still exists. Sure. And I'm not knocking at totally. But what I feel is that it is a good grounds for some – I mean, the consequences of this Puritanism are very often comedic. Yeah. And then there also can be very sad.

So I, it's fun material to work with. One of the curious things I thought, and Lily's character at one point kind of confesses that maybe she doesn't have the talent to kind of realize her initial dreams of being a great actor. Is that something that you ever felt early in your career that, like, you were getting accolades that surpassed what you yourself felt you were worthy of? my feelings of I would never admit that I wanted to be an actor when I was 18 or 17 or I didn't I thought I was very interested in writing and directing movies making movies my sister Shirley McLean was a movie star and I thought wow that's very impressive And then I came to New York, and I had spent a year at Northwestern University.

Then I came to New York, and I played piano in a bar for a while. And then I did a very lucky thing. I went to Stella Adler to study acting. And then she, I think, she made a big difference. She thought I should be an actor. And was that validation important at the time to hear like Stella Adler, who obviously, It was something new for me because I had no intention of being an actor, but she was very inspiring, as was her ex-husband, Harold Clureman, who would come and lecture. And so I began to take acting very seriously.

I didn't think about movies. I thought about the theater, and I still intended to write and direct. So you could maybe say that I wanted to defend myself from the ambition of wanting to be an actor. Sure. Movie actor. And that, because you started producing relatively early on, was Bonnie and Clyde the first time you produced, correct? That's the first time I produced a movie. So it sounds like that wasn't out of necessity of that particular project.

It was always part of the plan to kind of collaborate on that level. I got lucky again. I made my first movie with Kazan. And Kazan was a great director and a terrific producer. And I saw that I felt I could do that. And he was encouraging me to do that. And then I thought, well, okay, let's hurry up and do it. And then I saw the way that the game was being played in Hollywood.

and that was at that was really the end of the studio system when that was when I went out there that was the moment when they were stopping putting actors under contract and so that I am I saw that in order to be not angry I would have to take charge myself and see what happened and And that's what I did. I'm curious, like, is there any aspect since you were kind of part of that shift you saw the before and after? Because there's a lot to lament, frankly. And I know you've kind of talked about this a little bit in terms of like where Hollywood's at today and the in-between movies that we're losing that are just not being made by studios. What were there aspects of that studio system that you almost wish we could go back to? Or is it just, do we need a different model? Do we, you know, I'm anointing you king of Hollywood.

What are your first things that you enact that can bring us to a better system? Well, I would say that a major change took place in when the – tell me when I get really boring about this because it won't happen. When the Supreme Court consent decree was passed in, I think it was 1948, splitting distribution from financing, then – excuse me, I didn't mean. distributing distribution from mine i mean exhibition in other words the studios were forced to divest themselves uh of their theaters right uh because it was monopoly well guess what it was the theater owners that more or less made movies a two-hour art form so it could sell tickets twice and one night sure and um so uh things really began to change at that point and um and um and uh And then we didn't know about the effects of what television would bring about.

This is, you know, before I came into it. But the – so now what has changed very much is that I would think just people's lifestyles have changed. Yes. They want to know what they're going to do with their. their time, and they can control it, and they can, they want a guarantee of how they're going to spend the time, whether it's whatever pizza they want or whatever burger that they want. They want to know what they're going to get, and I call those burgers and those pizzas sequels. Exactly, yeah.

I mean, what we're seeing, the multiplex, it's kind of. Well, yeah, you know what you're going to get if you're going to be foolish enough to leave the house. And so I think that has changed the content of movies. And I think that the content of movies will not be as predictable when there is some arrangement made that that we're we can see the movie immediately in both places, both at home and in the theater. Because I think the most overriding factor of our life today is the brevity of all, let's put it this way, the brevity of our attention span. So we're aware of something for a week or two weeks and then it's old news. Well, yeah, I mean, to apply to the films, films used to run in theaters for months at a time, and it's a two or three week window, it feels like.

Yeah, so this has changed gradually over the years. The first movie that I produced, which was Bonnie and Clyde, was it took, the good example of that was Time magazine that panned the hell out of the movie, feeling it was immoral to mix comedy and violence that way. it panned it so badly that it even criticized the size of the dollar bills that were used in one scene. It was absolutely vicious. That was in the middle of August, and then the picture kind of, then the young critics kind of didn't feel that way, and then in Europe they loved it, and then, so it was August and September and October and November, and then in December Time magazine, as one example, put the movie on its cover and said it had changed, you know, movie making and stuff. That wouldn't happen today.

If it happened, it would happen in a week or two. The cycle was just so accelerated. And I don't know that the human brain is any faster now than it was then. Some might argue it's slower. Well, let us say that with the lessening of the attention span, And there is not the depth that used to exist regarding certain subjects. You're listening to Happy, Sad, Confused. We'll be right back after this.

Shifting gears for a second, I do want to talk about a little bit the casting of the film. We talked about Lillian Alden. One thing I also enjoyed is just the amazing cavalcade of actors that you've, brought into the ensemble here, some of which you've worked with in the past. And you've, you've done that a lot in the films you've directed. I mean, I think of people like Oliver Platt and Paul Servino. It's good to see those people that are always fantastic in this film. Just curious, did you approach someone like Nicholson, who obviously is a friend? On this movie? Yeah. No, no. But I've worked with Jack, and he's one of the great actors.

But actors are everything to me. Actors, when I'm acting and directing, I sort of feel that the other actors are sort of co-directing. You know, I can tell from somebody's instincts what that other actor is feeling and thinking without them saying anything. You can just kind of feel it. Right. And those actors, I think acting is,

there's nothing more important than acting. So I've been lucky in being able, to get really good actors to come in because they make me act better. The one thing, excuse me, the one thing that is an advantage when you're acting and directing at the same time, which, well, you know, there's one thing about directing, you say, well, directing you want to be in control, but you want to be slightly out of control of being in control. And then as an actor, you want to be out of control. and then but you have to be sort of in control of being out of control so you're being out of control of being in control but of being out of control of being in control and being in control of being out of control so what the end result is you win warn baby yes so the end result is that that if you are directing and acting at the same time at least you have one actor that sort of knows what the director has in mind

Fair enough. Not completely, but somewhat. Do you think there, is there any difference in your mind between a great actor and a great movie star? Do they go hand in hand? Can you be one without the other? I would think they go hand in hand, wouldn't you? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, although one could argue that the quote-unquote importance of movie stars today is different.

It means less at the box office for what it's worth. And I don't know, again, if that goes back to some of the things you were talking about, before or if it's the type of actors that are leading films now or have something different than the folks that you came of age with. I don't know the answer. I think that everyone is more informed now. That, and this is all a product of the technology, so I don't think that actors or politicians or anybody's are as mysterious as they used to be.

sure that's one reason why i wanted to have howard hughes be in this movie he was able in those times to be mysterious in the same way that greta garbo right was um uh able to be mysterious she she she she would keep you wondering yeah i hasten to add that sadly i never got to meet greta garbo nor howard hughes right uh i never met howard hughes either but i like to think that I met everyone who had met Howard Hughes. You're one degree away. Exactly. And I would hear these stories that all made me laugh.

They just were funny because they all liked him, but it was impossible to deal with. Sure. So jumping around a little bit, forget my scattershot questions, but Dick Tracy, I absolutely adore. And there's so many things I love about that. I mean, it's a bold movie in terms of just the aesthetic, obviously. Was that something that, because I know initially you weren't going to direct it, you talked to a few different filmmakers, was that always part and parcel of your vision for the film that it had to be those primary colors, shot in this way, using the extreme makeup? Did you always kind of have that vision from the start? I always feel that directing or anything that somebody takes seriously, you're better off in some sort of collaborative spirit, particularly if you have the final say.

Right. And so I would always have more fun on a movie if I had somebody else to direct it or to be there and write it. I believe in collaboration. I believe in a dialectic, establishing some sort of dialectic, not necessarily an argument, but a dialectic where people feel free to say exactly what they think, very candidly, without fearing that they're destroying the process and that in that in that and that that's very productive to be able to but it it of course is more enjoyable if you have the final say yes but I do think it's important it's important to have more than two people in that dialectic Right.

Because it shouldn't become an ad hominem contest of, well, who's smarter, you or me? Right. On a conscious or unconscious level. But if you have three or four or five people participating in an affectionate, constructive way, that that's what you strive for. So if you take Dick Tracy or really any of the movies that I've done, I'm kind of good. And I'm kind of good, I think, at putting together what could be called a committee. Well, who would be on that committee, for instance, on something like Dick Tracy? Like, would you count, like, Sondheim or your editor or who is that?

It depends. I mean, sometimes it's said that a camel is a horse made by a committee. Well, okay, that's fine. But camels are very helpful. Sure. I mean, look what they did for David Lee, for instance. So I'm talking about Lawrence of Arabia. So my feeling is that the more, well, if you take Dick Tracy, I had Vittorio Starraro, as a cinematographer, I had Dick Silbert, I had Malena Cananero, I had Stevens on time, and very, very good actors, very good actors.

I think that And actors that are going to like extreme places Like clearly they put their trust in you Because like that those I mean what Dustin was doing What Al was doing Those are you can look like a fool again

If you're not in the right hands And you're not collaborating with someone you trust They are trusting And I'm and I trust them You know They're Dustin and Al Are

An amazing combination Yeah Is it true that you still want to do another Dick Tracy film? I always have something in the back of my mind that helps me avoid actually going to work. And I have some thoughts about, and that's one of them. Now, would you play Dick Tracy again? Or would you let someone else have that? I will not respond to your offensive question.

How is that offensive? I'm just curious. No, it's not offensive. You're curious. Here's my answer. Here's my answer to most questions, okay? Okay. It's three words.

I don't know. I got a three-word answer. Ask me a political question. I got three words for that, too. How do you feel about the election that just transpired? Here are my three words. Don't start me. You can be, you're a delight, but you can also be a challenge for someone like me.

That's giving me on my toes. It's good. I like it. Good, good. So I watched, I watched Bugsy last night. Really? I did. It truly did.

My wife hadn't seen it, and it was very enjoyable to let her see it and to see. I honestly think it's maybe my favorite of your performances. Really? It's, because I think it's something I feel like I haven't seen you do virtually in anything else. The, I don't know, again, you go to some. some dark places and it's a very volatile yet charismatic character that's very interesting did you find it to be again you were in the hands of barry levinson so you had a great director to work opposite a great screenplay by james towback um did you i'm just curious like what was exciting for you

at that time to was it exciting to not have to direct it and to let someone else well it's just more fun it's more fun if you got guys like barry and jimmy and and and then what was that woman's name that played that other part? Annette?

Was she done anything lately? I remember very well. Yeah. I mean, that's a

great group of people. Yeah. It was, it was, it's really more fun

if you have a collaboration, yeah. When you, when you see that film, do you see you and

Annette falling in love and if you see those scenes yourself? Can you see the

germs of that? It took me, I would say between four and seven seconds to fall in love with her and make me lose interest in the garlic chicken that I was eating when she was late for a lunch meeting.

I can be very decisive sometimes in my own head. I would never have said that to, although I did indicate it slightly to her. How was it indicated? I said, don't worry about me. I will not be giving you a bad time, but I, I like you very much. Fair warning. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, yes. I also, you should. We will be married now for 25 years. Congratulations. Yes. And 20th century women, by the way, which I haven't seen yet, is apparently, she's amazing. You have to see it.

She's just wonderful. She's so good in it. It's a very good movie, too. I've heard, Mike Mills, great filmmaker, right? Yes. Yeah, one of my favorite ways to warm up my vocal, my pipes before a podcast is to say 20 dwarves took turns doing handstands on the carpet. I'm not joking. I love doing that.

Yes. It's effective. Well, that's good. So thank you for that extra, that's a bonus. It's always a pleasure. Was that something that Bugsy actually did? It's something that we had in the back of our mind for you when we made the movie. 25 years later, it's reeling rules.

The Oscar nominations were fine, but a guy on a podcast 24 or five years later. It means much more. Can we run through some of the adjectives that are sometimes assigned to you? Yes. Tell me how you feel, agree, disagree. Are you a perfectionist? I don't know. Okay.

I don't know at what degree of obsessive compulsivity you get to be called a perfectionist. Would Annette call you a perfectionist? With your friends? Okay. Hopefully she'll be on the podcast. I will. Yeah. Are you going to do it?

Hopefully I will. Yeah. Put in a good word place. Yes. I will. Obsessive? Again, it's on the scale. I don't know how to, I don't know.

Okay. I guess I would qualify somewhat on that. Would you, had, and I don't think of this as a negative term because I would call myself this, neurotic? it's interesting um i i i guess i want to uh say yes to that because it can't be misinterpreted as being self-aggrandizing therefore i might sound more wonderful so uh yeah fine go with that yeah yeah why have you been so notoriously hard to pin down for for films in terms of like I know you've been living a great life. You've been raising children in recent years.

I'm not even talking about the last 15 years. I'm talking about throughout your career. And some of the finest filmmakers ever to walk the planet have been desperate to work with you. Is there a particular reason that you can pinpoint of why it's always been tough for you to kind of like make that final decision to dive in and work with? I mean, I could rattle off the 15 names that supposedly have wanted to work with. I would say I have had the luxury of being self-indulgent. and to experience that little thing that would be called, quote-unquote, life. I've been, I have to knock on wood again.

We'll bring in some wood for you. There's wood in there somewhere. Somewhere. It feels woody. I feel that I've been lucky to work. um work basically when i felt very motivated to work right um i i've taken a couple of paydays but not very often but as you can see i haven't made a lot of movies probably fewer than anybody who's been around in fact somebody told me yesterday i've been making movies longer than anyone

who's still making movies clint was doing television when i right right started so I don't know. I would say that the question is about obsessiveness. Well, we moved off that. I guess it was just getting you to, like, for instance, like, I always think of Kill Bill, which is a film that I love that Tarantino did. And David Cardin did an excellent job. I think he was amazing in it. But I will always wonder what it would have been like to see you play that character.

Was that something, what ended up making you? Well, I had a very specific reason. I think Quentin is wonderful. He's a very good friend. And I believe it was my suggestion that David Caradine would be best for it. But I didn't want to leave my kids. I had, you know, I have four kids that I like to say are like four small Eastern European countries. And I send ambassadors and try to get a text answered, et cetera.

And I said to Clinton, I think, and he was shooting the movie in China. and I thought you're going to be over there for a long time. A long time. And he said, no, it will be only Bo. But, of course, he did. In fact, he was over there for exactly the time that I predicted. I would love to work with Quentin. But that's a, you know.

Can I run through a couple others? Sure. Tell me if they were true. Did you turn down Michael Corleone, Godfather? Yes. Regret or, again, just one of those things. Oh, it's worse than that. When I, when, before Francis ever got involved with it, Charlie Bluedorn had commissioned the book to be written.

I think he had paid $24,000 to Mario Puzzo to write a book. And Charlie liked Bonnie and Clyde a lot. And he sent it to me and he said that you could do whatever you wanted if you can produce it or write it, directed. And I said, Charlie, I read the galleys. and I said, Charlie, there's no movie here. In fact, I said the same thing to Charlie that Jack Warner said to Walter McEwen, who was running the production at Warner Brothers when he said yes to Bonnie and Clyde. He said, Walter, these movies went out with Cagney. And that's in a letter that's in the museum at Warner Brothers.

You don't say yes to Bonnie and Clyde. This is ridiculous. And so I stupidly said relatively the same thing in relation to the godfather. It was karma, it even did out. Which is a great movie, I have to say. But I was not the only one. Jack did. A number of people did.

Boogie Knights, P.T. Anderson, did you flirt with that part? I felt that I didn't want to do a movie about porn when I was having these kids. Got it. And that's probably a snobby. By the way, I think it's a very good movie. Absolutely. And PTA is a very, very good director. And I didn't say what a great director I think Francis is. So, I mean, I read actually one of the great unrealized projects that I've always wanted to see that probably will never see now is that Megalopolis film that he was doing that. I think you were even also he talked to you about potentially. I did not know about that. Oh, okay. It was one of his kind of like ground missions. I mean, I know about Megalopolis. I didn't know that he had any interest in my being. Now, you and Woody Allen go way, way back. Way back. I mean, you brought him into what's new pussy.

see cat as I would call right. I'm going to what's new pussy got? I saw him at the Blue Angel. I thought he was funny as hell and that he should do the rewrite on the script. Frankly, I've had him on the podcast. So between him and you, I've knocked off my bucket list. I have no one else to do at this point. So thank you. I can retire the podcast. Well, there's not just because of that. Now, Craig, there's there's some conjecture that you guys had a falling out or something that you're not on good terms. Who? Me and Woody? Yeah. No, no. Okay. That's good to hear. No, I would not call us close, but I have tremendous respect for him. And, no, we had a falling out of that movie. We both fell out of that movie, and it caused both of us to become what may be called control freaks. Probably for the best, in a way. Because he had written a much better script that was finally done, and I, thinking they couldn't do it without me, walked away from it, and they made it with other. people immediately.

Yes. Have you ever even entertained a meeting with like a Marvel or D.C. about these comic book movies? I would imagine they would be interested in you. Are you interested in them? I think it's not in poor taste for me to say that I believe they came to me first with Superman. And I thought it was – I didn't think they were going to actually make a movie of Superman. It would be more like a television show. And they said, no, they're going to really spend some money on this.

And I said, well, I think this is kind of ridiculous. And no, you've got to think about it. You've got to think about it. And so I said to my assistant, run out and get me some long underwear, would you? And she said, what are you talking about it? I said, just get me some long underwear. And she's, well, why? I said, don't ask why.

So she brings back the long underwear. And I take off my pants, I put on the long, not in front of her, by the way. And I take off my pants and I put on the long underwear. I opened the bathroom mirror, the full-length mirror. And I went to the telephone. I said, look, just forget about Superman. It ain't going to happen. And then the movie was terrific.

It was terrific. It worked out for the best. It was terrific. I wouldn't tell that story if it hadn't been told around. I didn't, I don't talk about movies that I turned down, but you seem to, I don't know. Well, others are, we're aware of these already. You're not breaking any news here. It's just interesting.

I thought Superman was a terrific movie. Fun, really fun. And I think the Marvel movies are fun. They're fun. Have you had final cut from the beginning from Heaven Can Wait on all the films you've directed? Yes. That's been important, I would imagine. I mean, that's something where I've always had final cut, but I never exercise it.

Really? With the people who were silly enough to have put up the money. I shouldn't say silly. generous enough or misguided enough or trusting enough or whatever attach a positive word to that if they um to say look you know i have a final cut but if you have a change you want to see then and you're willing to talk about it at length sure i'll probably make the change yeah so that's what a good guy i am we knew already but now it's Double-confirmed.

So, I mean, do, in effect, all the films up to Rules Don't Apply? Like, is it easy for you to arrive at that final cut, or is it laborious to get to? I wouldn't call it laborious, but it's not easy. And I always quote Cocktoe, who said a poem is never finished. It's only abandoned. Well, the same thing with a movie. You could keep going and going and going forever. Would you, I mean, if the world allowed it, if the studio allowed it, would you still be editing Rules

Don't Apply, or do you feel? I would still be editing Bonnie and Klein. I would be doing shampoo. I would be doing heaven can wits. You know, all of them. There's more happy, sad, confused coming up after this break. I know we don't want to talk about politics today for a number of reasons because it's almost, I don't know. It's too much to even handle my small brain to handle right now.

And I don't know what your feelings are. But Bullworth is a relevant topic. And it was two weeks ago and it's relevant today. Do you think that would be a much different movie if you were. making it today in this environment it was prescient i would say in many ways but uh i don't talk to me about the place you think it stands in culture today well i i would say that it was prescient then it ain't precious now prescient now it's um it's um it's um i i think that um here's what i believe that we are living in an era that we have not yet fully adjusted to the technology that we have

been graced with or settled with and that we are living in a cacophony of screaming voices that conceal what I think are the voices of wisdom that need to be heard. And I think a lot of, well, I think sometimes of Oliver Wendell Holmes who said, yeah, we have the First Amendment, but we cannot falsely yell fire in a crowded theater. Well, I'm not so sure that applies. anymore. I think you can yell anything, anywhere, at any time, and it loses its currency quickly, that it goes into, if it is a falsity, it will remain in the Internet and into this technology that we are trying to understand, and that we have to be very, very careful. And, and

that we have to accept that we don't know what the consequences of this are. I mean, I think you could, I mean, I would even argue that we're, as of last week, we'd see what the consequences are. I mean, we saw these kind of echo chambers, this kind of like post-factual world where you can sort of just make up your own stuff without accountability. and well you can we're at a point where you can say anything yeah and then you can take it back right and um i think often uh now of uh ronald regan who was in a an unusual way we were good friends right and he was a lot of fun i was always you know a liberal democrat he was always a conservative not well he was not always a conservative right at one time he had been a Democrat. But he was a lot of fun to talk to, and he was unpretentious, and he was what I would call

a good actor. And he had invited me to bring Reds to the White House, which I did. And, you know, it's a three-and-a-half-hour movie with a communist hero. So, you know, and at intermission, by the way, the last movie made with an intermission, we were standing outside, and he said to me that haunts me of something, he said, you know, I don't, and he was not trying to be funny at all. He said, I don't see how anybody could be president today without being an actor. And he wasn't joking. And I think that that has become this ability to interest people immediately and spontaneously has become more and more prevalent, and I think it can be dangerous. And the ability just to be spontaneous, and I'm not referring to any individual, really, can be very

dangerous. And he said something else at that same, we're standing having a drink. I think it was coffee, by the way, at this intermission before we went back in. And he said, you know, today it seems like there's no business but show business. And that seems more true than ever now. That hit home. And as I see what's happening, I have to say, well, we should all. be very calm and just wait and see what happens. Let's not outsmart ourselves. Let's not be premature. How close did you ever come for running for office? Did you ever seriously consider it? You'd have to define seriously. I never responded to it in the press. I never responded when they were kicking it around publicly.

And a lot of this happened, of course, after Bullworth and also in relation to, you know, I've been a political, politically active back to both Jack and Bobby Kennedy. You were friends with Jack Kennedy, weren't you? Yeah, yeah. But I don't know that I was ever generous enough to seriously consider running for public office. Or if I was seriously considering, I wouldn't tell anybody. And so there. Okay.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you understand throughout your life the obsession with you and your personal life and your professional life? I mean, has it been flattering at times or has it always been sort of a burden to kind of deal with? Well, I think that when you come up and you become famous very, very young, which I did because of the enormous talent of Kazan and Inge. Yeah. And lucky enough to make a movie and become famous. And then you see what is happening with American morality.

And you go to a place like Hollywood, which is very concerned with the merchandising of sexuality, merchandising of sexiness, then you – you – you – Let's put it this way. I didn't avoid marriage. I avoided divorce. Right. Because what I saw happening was everybody getting divorced. Well, I didn't want to be divorced.

And I had very close relationships with some very wonderful women. who did not seem to be interested in divorce or marriage either. And then the stories get kicked around, but if you wait until you're 54 to get married, that's a lot of time to be famous and to be rumored about with this thing or that thing. And the other thing that is, I think, More and more prevalent now is this thing called invented memory.

I think that we all do it to some extent or another. I try like hell to avoid it. Just natural embellishments and conflations of different events. And relationships and relationships that didn't happen at all. And I've read a lot of this, you know, about me. And I think, how interesting. Would anyone think that this would be conceivable? Would it be possible?

And I think that if someone repeats something often enough that those little factors go into the brain that makes them think it really happened. Right. And so I've, as you probably know, kind of avoided publicity for a long time. I thought I was being very shrewd to avoid publicity. And as I like to say over and over again, I think a man who is not paranoid is a man who is not in full possession of the facts. So I think – so – well, I think consciously or unconsciously, you alluded to, like, Garbo and Hughes, you kind of created in a smaller or different way your own fascination, the people's fascination with you by being a little elusive for so long. Well, I felt, you know, it was easier to be out of sight and easier to do, to have a private life. Yeah. Well, finally, bringing it full circle. For rules don't apply, I'm just curious.

You don't have to go faster because of the... Okay, okay. Thank you. Just being a good person. Well, I'm curious, like, you hadn't been on a film set, I guess, probably in, what, 15 years? um since town and country roughly um did it feel like is it natural for you to be acting is it does it did it take any kind of shift for you to kind of return to acting or is that stuff sort of so ingrained going all the way back to stella adler that it's it's it's like riding a bicycle when you got on the set of your own film yeah uh go with a bicycle yeah yeah it's not work i mean it's work

but it's not right i mean Acting is doing. Could you teach anyone to act, you think? Can anyone be an actor? I think you could make that case. Yeah. Yeah. Now, can anyone be a good actor?

Right, right. That's another. Yeah. That's, I don't know about that. What did you see in Lillian or Alden that excited you? Because you talked to a great number of actors, as I understand. over the years of the development of this i saw people who were terribly attractive the right age for what happens in this movie yeah that they um are both very intelligent

very ethical um both articulate both with a genuine humility which i think is a really necessary thing and they're funny. And they're funny. And so it didn't take long for me to see that in them. I like to say that character in drama is plot. And so you'd have to say, particularly in a movie, that casting is character. Yeah. So then casting becomes plot in some way. Sure.

So you see, oh, okay, now this person is going to play this part, and that person's going to play that part. Then how does this all kind of work together? And that's where the fun is. Yeah. is to is to um is to put it together they'll both be lily and alden in my opinion they will both be very good directors there will be uh the the future for the female and directing is unlimited both as directing and and producing yeah and uh and writing well lily i mean i've i've I talked to her many times over the year.

She comes out of, like, a journalistic background, I know, early on. And Alden, I think, was a film student, a film school student. And, hey, that proofs in the pudding. He's the new Han Solo, Curley. We all see that. Yes. I mean, he was amazing in the Cone Brothers movie. He stole the scenes in that one.

Absolutely. Yeah. It strikes me, like, in reading about you and hearing you talk today. I mean, you're somebody that likes to, as you say, exchange ideas and to kind of, like, debate in a constructive way. Yeah. And to come to a good point. Like, is that, can you do that on a film set when time is money? Or is that a place where the conversations have to stop?

Or do you create an environment and a schedule that allows for those? I think you have to be able to do that on a film set. But you have to create circumstances in which you can actually do that. And then other things are going on while you do it. Sure. Can't have everybody sitting around for a day. George Stevens, Sr., who was very kind to me when I went to Hollywood, but you say making a movie is like going to war.

You know, you've got to get the troops set up, and then you go and you do it. And so much of it does depend on planning of time and then allowing enough time to be out of control, allowing enough time to be improvisational, or at least to be experimental in not doing it exactly the way you had planned, but to be open to doing it because he or she comes up with a better thought to try. Is that why? Because, I mean, again, I've been reading about, for instance, Reds, like some of your actors, Diane and Gene Hackman talked about, like, I don't know if it was that on that film in particular, or generally on all your films, you did a lot of takes at times on that one.

At times, yeah. And is that just sort of again, hey, this is, I mean, I've heard Fincher talk about this where, like, you know, this is for perpetuity. This is for, we're here to make it as great as can be. Yeah. We might as well keep going until we feel like we get it right. That's true. With the advent of digital, you can do it more. Now you don't have to wait for the reloading.

So if an actor has lost it, it used to be with film, if they lost the impetus, the momentum, while you're reloading and then it took a while to come back so we don't have to worry about that as much film has other advantages but but but digital is very good but the the the the objective there is to be thoroughly enough plan to know what are the things that that is mandatory to have done to to do so that in the midst of that there can have be a freedom him to go against it or to change it. And the actors, and it's sort of contagious. Right.

If you're in a good situation. The way I found Gene Hackman, for instance, we were doing a movie together, and I didn't think I was doing very well. And suddenly this guy showed up. He had never done a movie before that I knew of. Huh? No, it was not Bonne Club. I thought that was his film debut.

No, he was in Lilith, a movie that I made with Robert Rosson, and he had a very small part in which he was playing the husband of a former girlfriend of my characters, you know. And suddenly, I'm really good in a scene. And I think, oh, it's because of this guy. He was making me good in the scene. And that happened. And so I couldn't do Bunny and Clyde without him, of course. I thought he has to be in Bonnie and Clyde because I'll be better.

And not only he'll be great, I'll be better. And by the way, that very much applies to Lily and Alden in Rules Don't Apply. It was interesting. Alden, Aaron Reich, I saw him and he had done a, he had been at NYU and I saw him do a play. And I went and saw this play and he was very, very good. And then I saw him in the thing that Francis had done. He'd done other things. And I thought he was really good. And I don't think he really believed that I wanted him to do the movie. And so he says to me, look, can I read for you? And I said, you don't have to read for me. I can't. Please. I want to read for you. I said, Alden, you know, please, forget it. You don't have to read. And then next time I saw me, I want to read for you. I can't. I say, Alden, you don't have to

read and then um so finally he did this a bunch of times i said okay come on up to the house and read if you want to and then you saw the movie yes and then that scene at the dock you know yeah and that which we did actually in one take that was all the way yeah and uh and so we're reading that scene and suddenly now i've written the scene and i'm thinking oh wait a minute there's things in this scene that i haven't seen it's better yeah and then he says can we do it again I said, yes. And so we did it again, and we went through it. And I thought, oh, this is good.

And then we did it again. And then I thought, oh, I've written a good scene here. And then there's a, he did a fourth time, a fifth time. And then around the sixth time we did it, I realized that I was reading for him. And I got the part. And so another actor can really, it makes all of it. the difference in the world and um just to look have you met lily collins yes yeah well then you know what i'm talking about i mean it's uh it's not to mention at you broderick who's the funniest man

in the world or alec baldwin who is uh maybe also the funniest man in the world or oliver platt who is also the funniest guy and then davis burgan and and there's that woman that woman that annette benny she doesn't need more publicity come on yeah i mean there's a This is the best thing that has ever occurred in my existence, and there you have it. You have a second publicity tour to do just to get the good word out on her behalf, to help her out. We need to get her an Oscar for... She's so good in that movie. 20th Century Women.

It's a good movie. It's fun. I've heard. I've heard. Well, I don't want to take up too much of your time because I know you... Why don't you take up much of my time? If you want to keep talking, I'm here all. I've got nothing else to do.

No, I don't believe that. Well, tell me this. Do you think I'm very sad, I feel like we're never going to see Gene Hackman act again? Do you talk to Gene at all? I do. Yeah. I think Gene, um, I, I, I, I think he like his life. Is that? Yes. Yes. I think he's interested in life. Okay. I can't argue with that. It's probably what makes him a great actor. Yeah, I guess. He's interested in life. Um, what about Jack? Same thing with Jack. Yeah. It's, uh, you guys in your happy lives. We need more, we need to be a little less happy. And, you know, we need to be a little less happy. And, more needy. Well, I'm trying to be. I'm trying to be unhappy.

I'm trying to bring you down so you act more for us. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, it's been a true honor to have you here today. Honestly, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and to hear these wonderful stories. And I wish you the best of luck on this film. Rules don't apply.

Everybody should check it out. And thank you so much for your time today, Warren. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. And so, another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. This episode of Happy Sad Confused was produced by Michael Katano, James T. Green, Mukda Mohan, and Kashamahailovich for the MTV Podcast Network, with additional engineering by Little Everywhere. You can subscribe to this and all of our other. other shows on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever else you find your favorite podcasts. through a desert where you get bit by a pit viper. So you boogie-woogie-woogie back to camp and ask your

friends if they'll suck the snake venom out when they say no. You boogie-woogie-woogie to the nearest hospital for a dose of anti-venom and boogie-woogie-woogie your way to a full recovery. They electrified Jeep Wrangler 4xE. Learn more at jeep.com. Jeep is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous American, America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials and the escape attempts from Alcatraz, of bank robbers like John Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd, of killers like Lizzie Borden and Charles Starkweather, of mysteries like the Black Dahlia and D.B. Cooper,

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