Happy Sad Confused - WEDNESDAY creators Al Gough & Miles Millar

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Whether it's Superman or Spider-Man or Wednesday Addams, Miles Millar and Al Gough have made a career of giving their unique take on iconic characters. Here they join Josh to chat about SMALLVILLE, SPIDER-MAN 2, WEDNESDAY, their early script for IRON MAN, and more! UPCOMING EVENTS! August 13th -- John Turturro in New York! -- Get your tickets here! August 14th -- The Thursday Murder Club with Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, Ben Kingsley, & Chris Columbus in New York! ⁠-- Get your tickets here! August 15th -- Ben Stiller & Seth Rogen LIVE in Los Angeles -- ⁠⁠Get your tickets here ⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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your ears, humans, happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, today on Happy, Sad, Confused. We have the brains behind Wednesday, Spider-Man 2, Smallville, and so many other projects from the last few decades, Miles Millar and Al-Goff on Happy, Sad, Confused, Today. Hey, guys, I'm Josh. Thanks, as always, for checking out the podcast today. Another fun one with, as I said, these guys have been doing it for a minute. it and they have really navigated the industry well, thanks to their perseverance and talent.

Miles Moore, Algoff, these might be, look, unhappy second views. We have a lot of, like, huge names, the recognizable names. Like, these might not be the first names that ring a bell, but you certainly know the things that they have written, the stuff that they have showrun, their series and films. Their current project is the second season of Wednesday. They are the showrunners behind this phenomenal. phenomenal success story, led by Jenna Ortega, directed by the great Tim Burton. And I think you guys are going to really dig this conversation.

They have all the stories. They have been through it. Sure, we talk about Wednesday, I'm working with Jenna and Tim. But these guys wrote the initial story for Spider-Man 2. That's right. Like one of the all-time great Spider-Man films. They've got the dirt on that. They have the stories behind Iron Man.

They wrote a screenplay for Iron Man back when it was supposed to be a Tom Cruise vehicle. Stories there. They also created Smallville, which I know many people in my life were, are obsessed with Smallville. We talk on about that. It's newfound relevancy, thanks to the new Superman film. They're meeting with their near meeting with Michael Jackson about a project. writing for Jackie Chan, so much cool stuff. Like I said, these guys have the stories.

Miles Millar, Al Goff, a great conversation on Happy Say I Confused today. Briefly, I'll mention, as always, lots of events coming up, actually. Some of which are sold out, some are not, but I'll list them nonetheless. All of this information, check out our Patreon. Patreon.com slash Happy Say I Confused, Early Access, Discount Codes, merch, all the good stuff. If you love what I do over there, go over there. try to support us if you can. Okay, in quick succession, New York City, August 13th. If you're listening to this before then, you still have a shot to come out and see me and John Turturro very excited

about this. He's never done the pod before talking about severance, but also this is a career chat and I'm going to dig into Spike Lee films, the Cohn Brothers movies. There's too much to talk about, but we're going to jam a lot in. August 13th, New York City tickets are available for that 90 Second Street Y link is in the show notes August 14th this one might be sold out but you can you can see if there are tickets available again through the 92nd Street Y but actually at the Paris Theater in New York City we are screening Thursday murder club which is the new Netflix movie and get a load of this panel Pierce Brosnan Helen Mirren Ben Kingsley Chris Columbus all sitting down the chat that's pretty damn cool um as I say said, there might, I'm not sure if there are tickets available. The last one is the longest shot, but we are hopefully going to release a few tickets as we get closer. August 15th, Los Angeles, here I come, Seth Rogan, Ben Stiller. This one sold out in about a day.

So we'll see if some last minute tickets come available, keep your eyes and ears peeled. But that's going to be a hell of a night. That's it. A lot coming up, a lot more to come. That's just the stuff I can announce. Yeah, anyway, all right, let's get to it if you are, oh, by the way, these guys also wrote Beatlejuice, Beetlejuice, Tim's return to that franchise. So we talk about that too. So if you're a nerd like me that loves comic book movies, Beetlejuice, Superman, Iron Man, all the stuff, Adam's family, you're going to dig this one.

Miles Malar, Miles is the one with the British accent, for the record, and Al Goff. great conversation to great guys and talented writers please enjoy Miles Al thank you so much for taking the time today I was just talking to you guys unofficially off camera

that I'm big fans of your work there's a lot to talk about Wednesday and decades of contributions to pop culture so thanks for the time today guys I appreciate it thanks for having this great to be it yeah so who has quit this relationship most over the years

who said, that's it. I've had enough. We're done. Who's the drama? Who's the drama queen in the pair? Let's get that out of the way. It's been shockingly, I would say, drama-free. You know, we've been partners for over 30 years. And as you know, because your brother's in a partnership that they, you know, but it's very interesting because sometimes Miles and I will run into people who used to be partners. And it's like running into like divorce couples. It's like, oh, they were partners in the 90s. Right. I mean, is the working, it's weird. Is the working relationship essentially unchanged? Like, have you had to kind of make adjustments over the years of the way you work with each other? Or is it kind of, if I talked to you 25 years ago, was it essentially the same way you work? I think, I think sort of spiritually it's the same. Logistically, as you know, with life, it's got, we used to write together in Miles's apartment when we first started every day. You know, we would go and, you know, work from like nine to six. nine to seven and sort of back in the back in the early days and then as it sort of evolved we don't we always are together when we when we break the stories and and do all of that but then sometimes just given the logistics of television um and show running you know we will uh it's a little it's different that we delight and conquer yeah it's definitely been an evolution in terms of that and the complexity of these shows

has just become much more extreme you know in our smallville days it was very much we're in the writers room together breaking you know 22 stories a season this is really like breaking eight movies and then making them which is like the just the scale of production is just so much bigger

so I think we've really you have to get this divide and conquer approach and and it's been very effective for us and I don't know if people do it just with one person because it's like it's just the scale of work is just phenomenal well yeah and i'm you're getting at something i want to start with we're going to start with wednesday which is obviously entering at second season congratulations guys i've seen the first four broken up into two parts and look yes you're

not having to do the the 22 or 24 episodes whatever you were doing of smallville and other shows back in the day you're doing eight which might not sound like a lot but the level of production design of filmmaking of craft is just you are making movies you're you're essentially making movies here so does it kind of all even out in the wash even though you're doing a third of the amount of episodes is it in a way just as much if not more work than that kind of old model oh i think it's much more much more work yeah it's just i think also it's like the the job of a network show run up something doing like a small valley is really you're in command of the riders frame and you're then you have obviously input into everything

else and you're oversea it all, but just the level of, of, of the patient and and leadership that's needed to run a show like this is just nothing like we've experienced before. So it's really all-consuming. And there's only, only eight episodes, but it actually, I mean, it's just, each episode takes, you know, 30 plus more days to make. And we're in there nine months of the year making it, which is the same, the same length of time we do for 22. I mean, it must be rewarding, hugely rewarding, not, look, obviously it has touched the zeitgeist and it's obviously resonating with millions and millions of people, but like also to get all the bells and whistles, to get someone like Tim Burton directing some episodes, to get, again, the production designers, the music budget.

I can't imagine the music budget on this show. It probably dwarfs some of the other shows you've worked on. Is that fair to say? Yeah. It definitely is. You know, and it's, it's, it's, it's. It's, as Miles said, it's just a much bigger production because, you know, when you, you know, back in the day when you did 22, you know, most of them were going to be in your batting average, right? But then you're going to have some that were great and some, no matter how hard you tried, we're going to suck, you know. But here, when you're making eight, like, they all have to be great. And there's not an excuse not to be. There's no. No, they've all going to be great.

That's it. And, you know, back then, too, you were, you were kind of, you know, fighting against. the other shows in your time slot. Now you're literally up against every show that's ever existed. Yeah. And the bar has been raised all around in every conceivable way. Like I said, I'm digging the new season. I love any show that I think in the first episode of the new season,

Wednesday says something to the effect of I'm heading to the junior embalmers convention in Kansas City. That's when I knew you had my heart. Like I was like, okay, I'm in. Like this is speaking to me. Is there, it must be so joyful to write that character. in particular, the deadpan, the dark, twisted sense of humor. Is it fair to say that's one of the most enjoyable characters in your career you've had

a chance to write for? Yes, yes, absolutely. And also, you know, in some ways the trickiest, too, because, you know, she does things not for the reasons that a normal, quote-unquote, you know, hero in a television series would do it. She's not doing it to really save lives or to help the world. You know what I mean? She ends up doing those things, but that's not her intention.

You know, hers is all about, you know, curiosity and solving something because she's the best to do it. And, you know, she's the smartest person in the room, even though sometimes she's not. You know, there's sort of... Yeah, it's proven that she's right. You know, that's a lot of it. It's like, it's kind of like there's a lot of ego there. But it is sometimes you fall into sort of story and narrative tropes with her, which, is you've got to like, oh, yeah, she wouldn't do that.

Most protagonists would, but she wouldn't. So it's just, it's really like, she keeps you honest, which I think is really, really fun as right as to, and it's a challenge, you know. So she's hugely enjoyable, but she's also a challenge. I'd love to talk a little bit about the genesis of the show, the reference points for you guys in creating this show. Like, obviously, look, you have Adam's family, the cartoons, the films, the films, which were fantastic back in the day.

But also, I really feel like this show is encouraging. communication with a lot of pop culture, a lot of cinema history, a lot of reference points I was saying to you before, like I see stuff like referencing, you know, Catherine Zeta Jones work in Zarro or Vertigo. I mean, for me, maybe I'm dating myself about like, I know people reference like Harry Potter. I remember like young Sherlock Holmes and I'm watching this and I'm like, this reminds me of that. What were the kind of touchstones for you guys as you were crafting your pitch for this? Well, I think it was all of those things, you know, because what's interesting about the

Adams family is that you had the panels, you know, from the Charles Adams cartoons, and they didn't even have names until the television show in the 60s. Like, he didn't even name them. And then the TV show, and to really an extent the films and even some of the animated things, it's kind of a sitcom premise where the Adams family are kind of a block, and it's somebody from the outside coming in and trying to steal their money or pull some scam or con on them and then ultimately getting hoisted on their own vatard. And sort of our approach was they can still be a family who, what's a couple of things.

They could still be a family who love each other, but doesn't mean they don't have family drama, family conflict. But the real genesis was we were like, Wednesday Adams is a great character, but what would she'd be like as a teenager and what if she went to high school you know and again kind of in the way like smallville how do we tell a chapter that hasn't been told in this character's life um and then the more we thought about it we're like well she just you know cut through a regular high school in five minutes which is guess what the first five minutes of the show so and when you look at the charles adams cartoons there's these other characters in there in the background so we're like okay

So there's this other world of people, of oddities, of outcasts and creatures. I mean, he has a lot of like little creatures in his work as well. So it's like, oh, that's interesting. It's like a lot of unexploreds. That was like sort of inspiring too. And so we kind of was like, what if we put her in a school of outcast? And even in that school, she was the most outcast. So you, correct and going wrong, you pitched your take on this.

This predates Tim's involvement. Tim Burton's involvement? Yes. Oh, yeah, by years. Oh, wow. Okay. And then obviously, Jenna's as well. Talk to me, though, a little bit about Tim coming on board, helping establishing.

I know, look, he is one of the preeminent visual artists of my lifetime, our lifetimes. Were most of his notes in that realm in terms of the visuals, like, or the creative as well? What was that kind of relationship like in the first season and even in this season? Well, he came in, he came in, um, We'd already written the script and actually broken the season and had other scripts as well. And he basically loved the script. So in terms of changes to the script, there was an idea he had in the first episode where the family is going to, because it's sad to him and his family, they were in the car and they were singing a song.

So we had that Royal Boston song as they go to Nevermore. So that was something that he inspired. But it was really, and then the design of the hide creature was something that we really struggled with. And we really wanted to create something that was iconic and sort of a signature. And he was like very, we got a lot of like concept artists and designs and nothing really was hitting the mark. Nothing felt original. I think there's actually sort of everything in the most, all the creatures of the moment feel like they're from stranger things. They all have some sort of like weird flower mouth.

So we were very focused on not doing that. And literally, he did this tiny, like, it's like a silhouette with a pencil of this, of this, like, punched side creature. And then he gave that to some, with the concert guys, they didn't get it. Then we get this call, we're like two weeks away from production.

Tim's at his house. He says, guys, you've got to come over. I've done something. We go into his study, and he's done this amazing watercolor of the high. and it is literally like what it is in the show and he goes what do you think he was really like I'm not sure if it's like this is incredible

and it was just like it reached a point where he had to just do it himself so that's what you you know was just like oh yeah we got the perfect Tim Burton creature in the show monster rather and it was just like yeah so he's definitely you know it's been a really great collaboration in terms of of the look and the design and all those

different elements and obviously he worked works very closely with Colleen Atwood, who's this, you know, multi-osquiany costume designer. So she brings an incredible amount of sort of the legacy of Tim to the show. I mean, I always think about Lewis R. Weems and Gwethlyn Christie's character in the first season. And just like that homage to the Hitchcockian heroines, like Tippy Hedron. And that's the sort of like, I mean, the show is infused with film references. and things like that, that we all, I mean, I think Al and I, Tim, are a huge cinefiles and movie buff. So I think that's something that's, that's, it's a great playground to show to explore that element.

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Starting at 17 grams per medium latte, Tim's new protein lattes, protein without all the work. You also have a cinnifile, maybe an unlikely one, given her age, in Jenna Ortega, who I've chatted with a bunch and maybe has better film knowledge than I do, and I'm twice her age. I mean, she's obviously an amazing acting talent, but like a true student, like of cinema, of music. She's, I believe, is she an EP this season on the show? Yes.

So it's two seasons. Yeah. So obviously, I would think, you know, has a seat at the table, has creative input. What's been, what's it been like to kind of collaborate with her, especially in the second season of what she wanted to kind of make a mark with as a creative influence on the show? Well, we've always, I mean, even in season one, you know, once she was cast, you know, we'd had the scripts written and we gave her the scripts to get her notes and her feedback on. So I think when the show's called Wednesday and your Wednesday, you've always had a seat at the table. Some of it gets a little more formalized. And I think with, I mean, what she brought,

certainly what she brought to the character was the whole, you know, the walk, the not blinking. Like, she really did a deep dive in terms of how she wanted to play Wednesday. And, you know, she comes with all of that to the table. So she's made really strong, and she makes really strong interesting choices as an actor. I mean, that's the thing. Even when you're like watching the, you know, watching her shoot

or watching her in the scene, it's just like, wow, she just brings things to it, you know, that are great. You know, she sort of always is always thinking about it. And I think what she also has, which again is rare is she has sort of a 360 view of things. So when she's on set, she's watching all of it and she's taking it all in and she's absorbing it. So I think, I think, you know, and, you know, she sits in the production meeting. She does all of that stuff. She gives, you know, and she'll give notes on on various things and have her input. which is you know which is great so and again is you know with with a television show it's always

especially actors it's you're always in conversation with them you know movies are kind of like a party everybody comes you shoot for three months and you're gone you know but a television show is an ongoing thing and in this case it's been five years you know since yeah and we always welcome and this is something you know different showruns and creators have different ideas of of what that relationship is between actors and and writers but for us it's like it's it's it's that conversation outside. It's like we really embrace the idea of hearing their ideas and giving them ownership of the character and making sure, you know, that they're comfortable and that they feel hard. So I think that's something that we've always embraced, you know,

and that it's important that everyone is respected and everyone has, you know, a voice. So that's something that, you know, we always sit down with them and talk about what our attention is for the season, we always break the season and then say, hey, what do you think of this? And get feedback and ideas from them. So it's just, there has to be a lot of communication. That's the thing. You've got to keep talking and making sure everyone's happy and it's getting good about what they're doing.

So as you look at this next batch of eight episodes, as I said, I've seen the first four. What are you proud of stuff? I mean, I would expect, look, the first season is a big swing, but given the success of the first season, I would imagine you have even more license to take a bigger swing. And certainly you brought in some amazing new guest star,

Hersey of the Lice of Steve Boussemi in there, Christopher Lloyd, that's a treat to see him, even if it's just a portion of his body. And more, as you look at this season, what are you most proud of? Well, I think it was, second seasons are tricky. You know what I mean? It's like it's great when your show hits, but then what you don't want to do is disappoint the second season. And as you said, you want to take that swing.

You want to expand the world. You want to kind of dive into the characters who you got to certainly got a taste of season one, but now they can have their own sort of subplots and, you know, help kind of fill out what is already there. And I think for us, that was it. We didn't want to repeat ourselves. We didn't want to do another kind of straight up cards down, who done it, mystery. So it's still very much a mystery and there's still twists and turns. But even that's kind of, you know, that's changed as well. So it's, I think it's always the challenge is people come to the show for a certain thing which you want to deliver but then you want to deliver more than that sure yeah and be unexpected

and i think that's always the we just we're really focused on not being complacent and that we really wanted the show to be ambitious and surprising and that an audience would really come away feeling they've seen a you know a full meal like i said enjoy enjoy a full meal of entertainment and that's always the thing the show is the real uh juggling active tone um and And so I think, you know, we really tried to be as ambitious as we could. And we do have the, you know, the luxury of being, you know, a hit. And so we wanted to let us, like, allow ourselves to let our imaginations fly. So that was sort of like, that was sort of our goal.

But also find new ways to explore the emotion of their characters. And hopefully the season will be, you know, as deeply resonant as the first, which was like it took people by surprise that there's, you know, They care about Enid Wednesday's hug or thing almost dying. These are sort of things that you don't really expect from an Adam's family show. And I think that's something that we've really tried to infuse in all the episodes, something unexpected that is emotionally resonant. You might as well also be talking about another of your collaborations with Tim Burton,

which I do want to talk about. Congratulations on Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, which I very much enjoyed last year. Well, thank you. And look, anybody that knows the history, Tree Beetlejuice and the quest for a sequel knows that was a long road and there were a lot of expectations and a lot of false starts and different ideas over the years. And I've talked to Michael over the years. I've talked to Winona a lot over the years. They are very protective of these characters. They have very specific ideas of what they did or didn't want to see.

Can you talk to me? I'm almost more curious about your collaborations or input from them than Tim. Like, what did Michael and Winona say directly or indirectly to you that informed what you ended up with in Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice? Well, that was interesting. Tim came to us. We were shooting the first season of Wednesday, and he called us into his trailer one day after shooting. We thought, oh, God, is something wrong? And he said, you know, I want to do a sequel to Beetlejuice. It's the movie that people ask me about the most.

Right. And he said, and he's, and obviously he'd been talking to Michael and Winona and Catherine, and, you know, said, if we don't do it now, we're never going to do it. And so we went away. And again, that's, you know, we, we seem to have this problem, which is you don't want to destroy people's childhoods, right? So you don't, you know what I mean? Like, dancing on the, dancing on the knife sedge for 30 years. Yeah, it's just dancing on the nice things. And you want to, you want to honor.

It's the, it is always the hat. and the tightrope with these things, which is you want to honor what's come before, but it also has to feel there is a reason to be, and it's not just a cash grab, right, for these things. Yeah. So it can be cynical. You know, that's always the thing.

Yeah. And I think what was great for us was Tim was literally the traffic hop for all of it. So we wrote the script, wrote the first draft, got it to him, sat with him, got all of his notes. Then he gave it to, you know, Michael, Winona and Catherine and in some ways it was a very easy assignment because you're really writing for an audience of two

Tim Burton and Michael Keaton because if one of them says no you literally have no movie right so you're you're you know and I think what's great is you know Michael created such a you know character with Beetle deuce and we can tell you because we went back and read the shooting script of the first

movie that voice is not in there it's not so you're like wow this was all kind of it all came you know, out of them. So I think for us, it was... You really see the improvisational, like, freedom he had on that set originally, right? That he created this insane, iconic character that's not on the page, right?

But the best compliment he gave us was like, he was like, oh, my God, it's like, I can't believe it. All this, it sounds like him that was like, it sounds like Beetlejuice. And I mean, his big note was, and Tim Stewart was like this always like less Beetlejuice. right less beel juice so we just had we we had a lot of scenes that we just like trimmed or cut or just so it just gets down to like the essence and so he is very spare in the movie and I think that's what gives him that special plot that you that when he's on screen it's like really impactful but you don't see a lot of him and that was really like that was michael's big thing that's like i i shouldn't be in the movie too much the less the better really yeah you go back

to the original he's in like 18 minutes of the film and you're like what oh that's the impact of that character. It is. Yeah. He's just an agent of chaos. Needless to say, yeah. So film did very well. It sounds like the studio wants another.

Are you in discussions? Are you involved in developing a third Beetlejuice film? That's really going to come down to Tim and when he's ready to engage in that. I mean, we're, we'll stand by and be ready. But I think, I think it always like this, you know, like this one, it has to come from him. And he has to, you know, feel engaged. I think that's why the movie doesn't feel cynical because he very much wanted to make it.

And Tim does things for cynical reasons. He does things because he loves it and he wants to do it. And if it was a version he didn't want to do, we wouldn't have made it, to be honest. That's really how he works. He's very pure that way. Like if he's engaged, he'll make it. If he's not, he won't.

I would imagine, though, you guys are smart guys. You've got your pitch ready when he calls and says, okay, I'm interested in doing a third one. you guys got do you have an idea we we got the weekend which was good so we were able to because i'll be honest i hadn't seen the movie oh this is this is the first time in um in Romania yeah it was like the first time we watched we saw on the Friday afternoon in freezing Romania and so then hey guys you want to read want to write the Beatleju sequel's like uh yes and then we spent the weekend basically watching the movie like eight times and then coming up with the pitch um but

But in terms of you're just talking about the third movie, right? No, I mean, I think, look, I mean, we never get ahead of ourselves. So that's something that, you know, I'm sure the studio wants to do a third. But I think it's really up to Tim and Michael and Winona to decide that they want to do it, you know, and Catherine. So, look, a lot of the folks tuning into this love your work from Smallville. I want to talk a little bit about Smallville. And especially given that we've just had a very successful Superman film out in theaters, which, have you guys both seen it by now, first of all?

I have, we have not seen it yet. We've been sort of heads down finishing season two of Wednesday. Okay, fair enough. Well, you know enough, though, to know. Yes, I know about it. That James has talked, you know, in glowing terms about Smallville, that Nick has talked about Rosenbaum's interpretation of Luther, that Luther core is in the movie.

It must please you that there are some real, there's real connective tissue and love from what you did. to this new big screen interpretation. It's absolutely, look, it's great. And it's great when a Superman movie works. And it's great that the movie is, it doesn't do, it doesn't fall into the traps of trying to be an origin story again,

all of the things. And it sort of embraces, you know, his kindness and it's fun. I think that's the thing wonderful about it. And I, you know, look, Smallville is the gift that keeps on giving. There's something about Superman that always resonates with people like that is why he's lasted so long you know what i mean because he can be interpreted for for any frankly any generation or any version of the world in which you're in you know and certainly for us you know it was interesting with smallville because you know we remind

people there there was no marvel cinematic universe the last iteration of of uh superman had been lois and clark which again was kind of a 90s yuppie version of of Superman um and so when we did it, you know, we premiered, you know, a month after 9-11, and it was oddly just became the right show at the right time. You know what I mean? It was like, America needs a hero and it's sort of comfort food for the American soul, you know, and to tell that story in that era was great. And I mean, look, we did not expect it. Like any of these things, you know, people say with Wednesday, did you think it was going to be so big? Of course not. You never know. You never know. you go we really you know at the time with smallville we love the pilot we love the episodes we were making the fact that it connected with people and in such a way is is great and the fact that it still connects with people and you know it's sort of yeah and i think the people who grew up with the show are now making movies and starring in movies so it's like great to hear that you know it's smallville was his superman i mean i think it was also interesting like we always saw superman as a great allegory for immigration that he was the ultimate

illegal alien and that's the fact that James said that and it's like so controversial was sort of like I couldn't believe it's like that's so like it's embedded in what it is it's of course yes but but you know we did an episode in season six with where we sort of talked about it directly you know Clark finds a boy who's you know working on one of the farm you know who that boy was I think was it was Tyler Posey it was Tyler both and he was like he was like 10 or something yeah um and we and I remember at the time, and this is again, 2006, the network was like, I don't know, this feels a little political for the show. We're like, it's literally the Superman story.

What do you want? To take it up with the original guys, yeah. Yeah. It's so strange. It's like, that's like, it's the fact that it's still a controversial idea. It's like, that's just so great about, you know, the Superman story. That I think it's why it's so, it's, it's, its legacy has been so powerful, you know, it really speaks to what the American dream is and all those sort of.

elements of Americana, you know. Well, it gets a little bit at what I also want to talk about, which is like the nature of where we're at today versus when you were doing Smallville. Like certainly the internet was around and there were message boards, but now it's such a, the interaction, the, the weaponization of anything you say, of any storyline, it all becomes fodder for something. And I'm just curious, like, I don't know, do you think there's something useful about listening to the fans, about listening to the dialogue out there?

or is that dangerous for a writer? Like, back in the Smallville days, were you listening to the fans? Did that ever, like, influence where you went with any of the characters? Listening to Ain't it cool news? Exactly. Did Harry Knowles that for the seasons?

Yeah. Exactly. I think Harry Knowles was not a fan. I don't think of small. But it was like a, it's, we were such an early days of, like, fan boards for small football. But we did listen in terms of, we didn't listen, but we read and acknowledged.

you've got a lot of criticism early on about being freak of the week and it's just when you're doing network it's very hard to pivot if you're like 10 episodes in it's like oh yeah we agree but you can't really do a lot and you've been in such a

that first seasons of any show whether it's streaming or network are just so insane but it you know season when the season one of Wednesday came out we obviously got a lot of we definitely

you know you don't want to be slavish to at all or overreact or but to fan comments or to this but you do take note of things that resonate with you in terms of things and ideas or criticisms like oh yeah that's

fair enough and you know it does allow us to shape what we're going to do in the future. It doesn't mean we're going to like oh my God like freak out but it's good it's good honest I think the important thing is to be honest, as a writer and a creator, it's like, okay, this is fair, and how do we change and how do we improve? I think it's always about never settling and never being complacent and always, like, just being open. I think that's always the thing.

I think just open and listening, I think it's a two traits that we really aspire to in terms of just like, yeah, okay, that's right, that's good. And moving forward with that, an open mind and listening. If you only listen to the fans in the internet, this season would have just been eight episodes of Wednesday dancing. They would just been like, okay, you wanted it? Here it is. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James.

We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall. releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lantamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat too, and Edgar Wright's The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. of The Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you missed them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

schooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Look, you guys have had an amazing career and a lot of great produced stuff, a lot of stuff that was never produced. I mean, a lot of comic book related stuff. So if you'll indulge me, I do want to, like, get your take on what your takes were on some of these or how far along you got. You do have a story credit on Spider-Man 2 for My Money, one of the great comic book

movies ever made. from what I've read, and correct me if I'm wrong, your story, your script had Doc Ock, but it also had Black Cat and Lizard? Like, what was your take on Spider-Man 2 and how much ended up in what we saw in Ramey's film? You know, it's interesting. They approached us.

We were doing the first season of Smallville, and we got a call that Sony wanted to meet with us. It was a general meeting. They wouldn't tell us. And we were so into, we're like, okay, but can we do this later? And they're like, no, they really want to meet you. So we go there and we meet with Matt Tom.

who was running production at the time. And we were sort of, you know, they love Smallville. And then they took us over to the set where we met Laura Ziskin who produced it and Sam Ramey. And they said we love, and literally the pilot had just premiered like a month before. And they said, we loved your show. We love what you're doing. We love you to write the sequel. And we were like, okay.

By the way, we're in the middle of like, it was like just like the tsunami of work for season one of small ball. It's like, what do you say? like you want to write you know spider-man Tuesday it's like oh yes yeah yeah the sequel to like the biggest superhero movie yeah yeah yeah but but but also you know it's always funny with movies because they're like what could a sequel be and it's like i mean literally most television shows especially in the network days are one long second act right like your pilot is your premise and then you're in the second act and our approach was with great power comes great responsibility but what if you never wanted the powers and then he he started losing him and

it became like superhero erectile dysfunction, you know, and the idea that the world was moving on, you know, MJ was getting married to Jonas' son and Doc Ock was there. They said we want Doc Ock to be the villain. We were like, great, because that to us was like the best spy villain. Yeah. But also, you know, and to Sam's credit, is he always tried to find the humanity in the villain.

So we actually worked with, it was Michael Crichton's researcher who helped us come up with the arms and the inhibitor chip. the idea that he was using this for other experiments something goes wrong and then they take over and that was what sort of villainizes him so so that very much you know came to and then and then okay now this has happened peter has to get back in the game but the but his abilities aren't working and it's really about you know because he can't be honest with with mj you know that that's really that's really what it was and then the the other thing too which is interesting is from the first movie is again this is like the old days before you know now they've got the eyes moving and stuff is they're like we need to get us mask off more in situations so yeah it was like because we've done some ADR in the first movie with the green goblin and was just like it was it was they were all worried before the movie came out yeah that there was there's a scene on the on the roof was it was green goblin talking to spider man they both had masks on the mouths didn't

move this was like two masked figures just like it was it felt like power rangers right yes so it was like They were really worried. It really did. It was like, okay, we can't do this again. So in the second movie, he's always taking his mask off

and talking. But the other thing I remember when we talked about was like the idea of the graduate ending at the church. Yes. That felt like that was definitely a reference there. So it was just a lot of those strands

from our script. I don't think we had a black cat to be out. I think we talked about it but didn't put her, didn't put her in the script, you know, because it felt, and like you're,

you're just kind of overstuffed the bag, you know, so. So talk about a different time. You also, correct me if I'm wrong, before Fabro and Figu and Figu and Figu and you wrote a, you wrote an Iron Man script and I believe this is back when Nick Casavetes was going to do it.

What was your take on on Iron Man? It was, Avi Arad had come to us after Spider-Man too and said, we have another Oh, by the way and Avi and Kevin Feigy were working out of a Was it like an old balloon balloon?

No, it was called like Toy Fair or something It was Obby's kind of company But it was literally this small office on Santa Monica Boulevard down from you know, the Century City Mall You know what I mean? It was really, they kept things very lean and mean So, you know, when you're sitting in a room

It's like the two of us, Kevin and Avi And that's it like that was it Yeah. It was off to the Spider-Man, too, that goes, guys, you know, we want you to do, we got another crown jewel, which is Iron Man. And it was at New Line at the time. Right. That's right, Ra, isn't it?

Yeah. No, it was it New Line. And to be honest with you, I hadn't heard of Iron Man. And Avi goes, perfect. And he goes, here's, here's what he is. He's a billionaire who sells weapons. He's got an alcohol problem. And, you know, there's, there's an accident.

Now he's trying to make it work, you know, make it better. So we thought, oh. Oh, this is interesting. Like, just a totally different, it wasn't another teen superhero, which we were small villain Spider-Man. We were like, oh, okay. So we did a draft, several drafts. We worked on that for probably a year, and we went in with Kevin and Avi.

And I remember, you know, I guess Bob Shea at the time had read it. And, you know, it's an interesting thing with generations trying to still connect with what a superhero is. And he got all tied up that Iron Man could fly. He goes, because Superman could fly. Can he just leak from building to building? And we sort of all walked out of that meeting and we're like, we don't think this is going to happen here.

And then again, to Kevin and Obvious great credit, then they kind of got the character back and did the version, which basically is, I mean, that movie's fantastic. I mean, it's a- Yeah, but once they moved to, did that, Al-Script was dead. Yeah, our script was dead. It was like. Stayed a new line.

So. Was there ever even like a dream casting in your mind? Did you write with an actor in mind or do you remember one being mentioned? Well, they wanted Tom Cruise. They wanted Tom Cruise at the time. Right, right. And I think Cruz was interested.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting, different alternate history that I, yeah, I mean, fascinating. Absolutely, right? Yeah. Yeah.

A couple others. Tell me if these were real, if you actually wrote scripts or not, if anything strikes your memories, flash, lobo. Are there any others that I'm missing of superhero films? No? No. No.

The only other one we did is we did an Aquaman pilot that was going to be a spin off of Smallville with Justin Hartley, that we unfortunately did it the year that the WB and the CW merged, and the politics of that situation killed that one. Got it. Look, obviously Wednesday, hopefully I'm sure will continue. It's going to keep you very busy for the foreseeable future. But do you have an appetite? You've done a lot, clearly. But do you have an appetite for a superhero film at this point? If Figey calls, if Gunn calls, is there a hero that you would like,

that you imagine that you could have a take on? Look, if either of those guys called, we'd absolutely take the meeting. We have a real problem with saying no. Yeah. Yeah. So we definitely, yeah. I think there's always,

I think for us, we've actually always done well and on characters who we don't really know. And it gives us a freedom to have our own take on. now. Like Wednesday, we're like a huge Wednesday Adams fans from our youth or huge Superman fans. We're just like, but once we like connect with the character and like get into it and think what's our spin

on this life and how do we explore them and I guess, you know, to be the cliche, add complexity to those characters that everyone knows. That's when we get sort of excited and inspired. And that's true of both Superman, Clark Kent and Wednesday.

It's like both characters that wouldn't necessarily have said before we did them like, oh, yeah, we're huge Adam's family fans. We knew the Adam family and appreciated them, but we weren't like, you know, rabid fans. It's fascinating, like, the nature of your kind of career, and I know it's a little bit

because my brother has kind of been in the same space for a while, it's like you end up collaborating and pitching sometimes these people that you grew up with that you revere, you know, whether it's like the Tim Burton's and look, I know, look, you obviously worked on lethal weapon four and Jackie Chan work. Like, the stories you must be able to tell, of having to like pitch these icons to their faces could fill up a few memoirs, I would imagine.

Like, have you, those are the ones I know about. So like, I'm just curious, have you, have you pitched Spielberg, Tom Cruise, like, I don't know, The Rock or Vin Diesel? What are the stories that jump out at you of being like, how did I get in this room? We definitely pitch Spielberg. Yeah. I mean, the best one was the Jackie. Jackie pitching Shanghai noon. That was a good one.

All you say that, tell that story. Yeah. So we go in. we got a call we were working on lethal weapon four and and jonathan glickman who produced the rush hour movies who we had known called us and said look um if if we have this movie we're making with jacky if it makes 50 million dollars we we want to make another movie with jacky not a sequel another movie and he has an idea we're like great what's the idea because he wants to do a western we're like great what's the idea and they're like that's the idea so we so we so we that's your job now

you feel in the rest yeah exactly literally yeah So we go in and we're pitching Jackie, and it's Jackie and his manager and John. We're in this airstream trailer and they're all smoking cigars. And neither hour I smoke. The whole of this trailer was like a ball of cigar smoke. Yeah. It was like getting a contact high. And then when you pitch, Jackie would then start to get ideas and then he'd stand you up and kind of use you as the dummy and show you what he wanted to do.

do so yeah so that was amazing that was cool yeah and the other one the one the picture that got away this is a weird story is that we did uh the mummy uh three and then we get a call for my agent that uh michael jackson wants to meet us and he wants to fly us out to Vegas so he has an idea for Aladdin that's like okay we're like it's like okay and then and we're like it's like okay We're in the middle of something really, like, on a deadline or something really crazy. We're not going to do that because, guys, you can't turn down Michael Jackson. It's like, we're not going to, we're too busy at this moment. Give us six months.

And it's like, and then they said, oh, he's coming to L.A. because he's rehearsing for his O2 concerts for that. So we were like, okay, great. When he's in L.A., we'd love to do it. And then, like, a month later, he was dead. So, yeah. So never had the audience, but had the invitation. And that's crazy.

No. Yeah. Yeah. We were like, oh, we were like, it would have been like meeting Elvis, right? Did he want to play Aladdin? I guess. Yeah. He wanted to be the genie.

Like, yeah. I don't know. It was one of those things like, it was like, I don't know if we would, you know, we just didn't want to do it because we wouldn't have taken it done the movie. It would have been an interesting like encounter with someone who's such, you know, a presence. But yeah, so that was like, that's one we regret, the one that got away. Yeah. Okay.

The last one, the last thing I want to mention is, again, we've only touched on the tip of the iceberg of your career. But one show that's become more interesting even than like, you know, I mean, it was interesting at the time. But given what he's become is Shinar Chronicles. And you gave us amazing Austin Butler, who I chatted with. I mean, I work at MTV still to a degree. So I've crossed paths with Austin back then. I don't know. I mean, you obviously saw something in him then.

But did you see what he's become when you worked with him on Shinar? He, he, he, Austin always, we had seen him. We were, we were, it's funny, we were casting that show and into the badlands in the same building. And it talked about a tale of two cities. For AMC, remember this was at the height of AMC, anybody would come in an audition. For an MTV show, it was like pulling teeth. So Austin had come in to audition for Into the Badlands and done a great job. And I was a fan of his from the Carrie Diaries because I, I've seen him in that.

And so we called him and said, we, the role. And Badlands was Oliver Stark ended up doing that role. And we had already seen him. But we said we have this other show. You could be the lead. It shoots in New Zealand. And he had shot New Zealand before when you. And I know the movie because my kids watched it on a loop called Aliens in the Attic, which he had, you know.

So we, we sent him the script and said, look, if you just want to come in and meet, we, we think you'd be perfect for this. And then he came in and he was perfect for it. And he could not have been lovelier and incredibly. hardworking, you know, always wanted to get better. All he wanted to do was better. Like he's and his work ethic is incredible. He's a lovely person. So for him to have all of the success that he's had is fantastic. We couldn't be had. We ran into him at a Golden Globes party because we were there for Wednesday and he was there for Elvis and we were just like, you know, you're, you know, it's like it's so great to see. And he told us because remember the scene of once upon a time in

Hollywood where he gets on the horse at the Spawn Ranch and he rock. And he rocked. And he rides and it's a winner. And he learned how to ride on Shinar. And he said, he goes, I told Quentin. He goes, it was Shinar to thank for that. And I remember the horse wrangler in New Zealand was like, this guy's a natural. He's amazing. So, yeah, we couldn't, we couldn't be more thrilled for him. He's, he's a great guy and a fantastic actor. So, well, congrats again on this new season. I've only seen the first half. Anything we should tease on the back four of of Wednesday, anything you can say? Just hold on because the ride gets a lot wilder.

Yeah. I'll also say it must be especially satisfying. Look, again, you guys have put in the work for a long time. I think Wednesday was the first time you got an Emmy nod for your work. I mean, the nerds have won. The gates came around. 30 years in the making. But, yeah, that's the thing that Solon is just the most.

It's taking us this long. But to have this hit at this time of our lives is like, it's, it's incredible. Yeah. But, you know, so it's, it's, you know, we couldn't be more thankful. It's also a good time to have it, actually. I'd rather have this kind of hit now that, you know, you could, you really appreciate it. I mean, had Smallville and this is like next level. It's just, it's really like, it's really amazing.

We couldn't be more thrilled or grateful. No, I mean, look, any, any writer or creative in the industry knows how tough it is to create one thing that resonates. but to see what you guys have done in different periods at different points in your life in different ways is really a testament to your work ethic and talents. So congratulations on everything, guys. Congratulations on the new season of Wednesday. And thanks for the time today.

Thanks, Josh. Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you, guys. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences decades or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials and the escape attempts from Alcatraz,

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