Happy Sad Confused - Willem Dafoe

Episode Date: October 3, 2017

For a high school AND college dropout Willem Dafoe has done alright. Actually for anyone Willem Dafoe has done more than alright. He is without a doubt one of our finest actors as evidenced by one of the most eclectic and impressive resumes that continues to grow year after year. Add his latest, "The Florida Project", to that lofty list and perhaps add another Oscar nomination (he's already got two under his belt).  This week Willem joins Josh for a career spanning chat, from his beginnings in Wisconsin, to his formative experimental theater days in New York, to working with the likes of Lars Von Trier and Oliver Stone. Dafoe talks the talk and walks the walk of an actor who takes his craft seriously. Plus, you'll learn why he's one of the few actors who has actively shunned television for a life devoted to film and theater.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Say I Confused, Willem Defoe on the Florida Project. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another show this week with a first-time guest to Happy Say I Confused. Surprisingly so, because Willem Defoe, I feel like, makes three movies a year. So you would think just by the law of averages, Sammy, that he would have popped by.

My head is reeling right now. I can't even concentrate on what you're saying. Why? What's going on? Because it's not William Defoe. It's Willem. DeFoe. I'm regretting that we weren't

taping 10 seconds before we started the podcast intro, because when I told Sammy who this intro was for, she was like, oh yeah, William Defoe. Yeah, and he goes, no, Willem, and I was like, do you have a speech impediment? The answer is yes to both. I just, this is like when I

found out about Mike Myers hosting the gong show. This is like, I feel like I've been so stupid all my life. You haven't been the same ever since. William DeFoe. Another, we recently had like Tim Roth on. I put him in that category of like a guy that's like worked with like every cool filmmaker, you know, and has, and just constantly turns out great work. He's currently

starring in a film called The Florida Project that opens as of October 6th. I think it's like a platform kind of release and it'll get wider and wider because this is a project that is getting amazing reviews. I saw this in Toronto. It's from Sean Baker, who is this, uh, a young filmmaker who did tangerine a couple years ago. Did you see tangerine? Yes. This was the film shot on the iPhone, right?

This is actually... That was a heavy one. It is, that was a heavy one. And this is heavy in some respects. It's kind of a weird slice of life film that you don't usually see exposed in film. It's basically about like a kind of transient people

that like kind of live in those, in that world in Florida, like near Disney world, but like not on the resort. Oh my God. So they're kind of like, you know, I am in. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating. So it's kind of like there's sadness and darkness to it in that like it's, these are people that are kind of living on the fringes and not doing great in their lives.

But it's also told pretty much from a child's perspective. And that gives it a lot of humanity and warmth. And it's shot beautifully. Like it's a gorgeous looking film. And Willem is kind of, he's like the only name in the cast. And he, as such, is getting. great reviews and is being bandied about as a potential awards contender. I would not be surprised if we see him.

I'm ready for him. I'm ready for him to get it. Yeah, totally. Do you think they shot at the Denny's we ate at in Kiss Me, Florida right outside of Orlando? I blocked that out. Oh, yeah. No, they, no, they didn't. I don't remember seen in that Denny's or any Denny's.

Yeah, context when we went to Star Wars Celebration in Orlando. Josh refused to eat at the hotel anymore. I don't think that was true. You didn't want to eat at that hotel. No, we got back late from a day of going crazy at the theme parks. It was like midnight. And I don't think the hotel restaurant was even open, Sammy. But even before it closed, you were...

I have an affection for Denny's. I have a Denny's soft spot. And so there's a 24-hour Denny's that we went to at midnight. It was dark. It was a dark place. It was honestly one of the most depressing experiences of my life. Denny's in the wrong place and the wrong time can feel really dark. In the right place in the right time, I can go...

Moon over Miami. You can do a Grand Slam. You can do some good fun things at Denny's. That, not Denny's at its best. But I still, look, they're still welcome as a sponsor to Happy Sanctuary. I was going to say, we still love Denny's. Still a friend of the family. If Friendlies wants to sponsor us.

Oh, my God. Any of that ilk are welcome. Let's get Taco Bell. I know. We're not going to get into our fast food. I'll save that. That's a good half of the interview with Wilm DeFoe is talking. about a chain restaurants. What a gift for the listeners to hire his voice for like just one of the

most beautiful voices. He's got a gravitas. He's a special one. So without any further ado, let's go right to this conversation. It was a treat to have him on the podcast for the very first time. Here he is Mr. Willem Defoe. And what is this? So this is New Yorkers. And this is, you know, I do sketches, as I was just saying, from time to time. So, for inspiration, oh, we have a great idea, who would be great for it? I can just look at this, because I don't really know who lives in New York, and I've lived here for a long time.

Yeah, how much time do you spend in New York at this point? Not much now. But that's because of work, I'm sort of. So should I put half of you on there? No, you can, you can, yeah, Willem D. Like at grade school. Oh, you should also know I've just gotten this in the mail a couple days ago, and I'm trying to decide

where in my office to put it. Yeah, yeah. This is swag. murder on the Orient Express. That's good. That's a nice photo. I look a little thick there, though. It's good for the character, but it's not a very flattering shot.

I have the whole collection here. We can, like, trading cards. They're nice. I'll trade you a Ken Brana for a Judy Dench. Yeah. They're nice. Nice. They're nice.

They're really good. I'm excited for that one, man. Yeah, it should be fun. That's an amazing collection of a, yeah, stress reliever. There's a lot in this office for you, man. Yeah, yeah. I'm C. Yeah, what else do you want?

talk about that's in here. This is your podcast, not mine. All right, right. No, go, go, go. Okay. You lead the way. But what's this creepy thing? Is that like some app? This was like a face mashup. Can you tell who's been mashed up here? I can't. It's you and, but who's the top part?

The bottom part's not you? No, although I could see that. I take it as a compliment. It's point each in. It's Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Lawrence. That's creepy. Yeah, they should never procreate clearly. No, no, no. Wow. That's funny. She looks good with a beard.

Yeah, you know. I mean, she could probably look good with anything. It looks feminine. I'm going to get the congratulations out of the way, first up. Okay. The far into project is such a great piece of work, man. You should feel very proud of it. I like it.

As we tape this today, I think this is your big premiere at New York Film Festival. It is. I leave basically to get dressed up and go. Do the carpet, which I'm sure is what you live for at this point of your life. You know. You know who I am. You got my number.

So, but yeah, and you've made the rounds for this a bit already. Cam, I think, was where it debuted. Yep, I wasn't there, though, which is a shame because I wanted to be, but I was just starting Aquaman, and that was shooting in Australia. And they, I, you know, it was different because of the time. People weren't able to quite make it work. Well, you know what? They were very generous with this kind of thing.

But I was just starting. It would have postponed. Yeah, it wasn't possible. Australia is far away in case you don't know. I'm not very good with geography, but I know that much. You can to Brisbane is a tough commute. I'm taking what about the longest trips of my life in a few days? I've never been to Japan.

I'm doing a two-week vacation. Oh, have a wonderful time. Have you ever been? Oh, many, many times. I love Japan. Yeah, I'm a little intimidated. Where are you going? I assume you're going Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, and me too.

that's basically the only places I've been there a lot and that's basically the places I know it's overwhelming Tokyo as you well know if you've been alone is you could go there your entire life I live in New York my entire life I still don't know New York I don't feel like have you studied

we're studying my wife is the real constant driver and I trust we compliment each other well it's good to have a guide exactly so I want to talk about a couple things since we have some time throughout your career as I was going back I was refreshing my memory on some of the projects that I've

in particular loved. One that I think is your high point is the procedure, of course. Oh, okay. Wow. Can we start there? Yeah, we can start wherever you want. The procedure was fun. The procedure is that I'm, like, honestly, is one of my favorite short pieces of comedy content I've ever seen.

You know, shorts are not my form, but that was fun. But have you seen, have you seen the, mind the gap? Oh, I don't know if I have. You've got to check that. Okay. If I like the procedure, I'll like mind the gap? Very different, but it's a short comic thing. Mind the gap is

I made it with a Russian guy, so it's a little more existential. Gotcha. It gets into the experimental part of your Uvra. Yes and no. Okay, okay. But the procedure for those that don't know and you must immediately Google it, this was Adam McKay wrote and directed it, and it was an SNL short that never aired, right? I don't know. I don't, I may not have aired. It was a very casual thing. It was like I was someone called the theater and said

listen if we send you something, would you be willing to do it like this weekend? That was like a Thursday, you know, so then they send me a couple of pages and I go to an empty office building and Adam McKay and Will Ferrell and some other people are there and we do this thing real quick and it's fun. Do you have, I mean, are you the kind of person that has always had a, because if you'll get the filmography, there's not a tremendous amount of comedy.

There's some. If you count the West Anderson stuff, that's... Oh, that's high comedy. I mean, you know, Bobby Peru is high comedy, if you ask me. You know, particularly... No, listen, you're right. Most people don't associate me with comedy. But it's all about coming in through the back door.

Is that, like, your predilection, or how other see you think? Is it... You know, I think... I think just in general, when people do comic projects, they get comedians or they get funny people. And I'm not a funny person, but I love to do comedy. Right. You know what I mean?

So the casting or the conception is quite obvious sometimes. And there's certain stock comic types and certain people that cut their teeth and clubs and all that. And it's a culture that I'm not necessarily a part. of. So I don't get invited to do, you know, broadly comic things because they don't associate me with that world.

Right. And they don't know whether I'm funny or not. Just look at the procedure. Look at Wild at heart. Yeah, yeah. Wes Anderson. There's other things. Mr. Bean. Mr. Bean.

Surely a high point for you. But it must be, I mean, yeah, you would fit, I could see you fitting in like the Cone Brothers. Oh, yeah. And I've known them for years, and I'm always surprised we haven't worked together. What can I say? Have you talked about anything specifically over the years?

Oh, yeah, we have. We have. But once we talked about something very specifically, and it's one of my great regrets, I just couldn't do it because, no, I'm not going to tell you, because I was unavailable. And then once they asked me to do a really fun little cameo in Big Lobowski, but a really small thing I think that David Thueless ended up

during, it was like an Italian intellectual on the phone or something which was funny because later I moved to Italy but anyway I couldn't do that When you see you know for the role

which I understand why you wouldn't mention that went to somebody else for whatever reason when you see somebody else do something that you were considering or that for whatever timing didn't work out Is that taint the role or taint the performance forever for you? No no you know sometimes sometimes you say

oh yeah that's the film they were making I would have been terrible in that or if I would have done it it would have been better you know you have got you've got an imagination about those things and it depends on the circumstances if it was you know kind of practical

and it was just one of those things that couldn't work out and everybody was cool then you're having a you know you're family so then you're kind of generous with it but if they're if it went down lousy and it was like a competitive thing and you were heartbroken.

Then you tend to say, I didn't want to do it anyway. I mean, somewhere, you know? It's like, so that's what they wanted to do. Boy, it was I wrong, you know? It's like seeing an old girlfriend, you know, married to a schmuck. You don't have to audition at this point. When's the last time you auditioned or something?

I don't know, but you know, there's always... Do they not call them auditions? I've done very little auditioning, but there's plenty of scrutiny and there's, you know, sometimes there's lots of, sometimes, you know, you have to lobby and, you know. Because it depends who you're dealing with, you know. It depends who holds the cards.

Yeah. And may, because I'm attracted to director-driven projects, the director usually holds the cards. But that's very rare. That's why my work is all over the place, you know? Well, especially in studio-driven films nowadays, where the director, unless your name is Spielberg, or, I mean, you know,

named five, there are only five of them. Right, they get some beam countertelling them that the numbers, the logarithms don't. Its Q score is just not what it used to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, listen, I'm not complaining. That's not bad. And the truth is, as I get older,

even the studio executives, because they're, you know, they will be aware of me and they know a history. You know, they're actually more receptive than they've ever been. Yeah, and I would think something, even though it goes back a little bit of ways now, but doing those Spider-Man films,

like that will always be on the resume as a proof that, like, I can, you know, I can carry the load in a franchise like that. Somewhat, somewhat, you know. So let's go back to... People have short memories, too. For better and for worse. That's true.

There have been two more iterations of Spider-Man already. I mean, guys. Let's go back to the beginning if we could. So, I mean, did you come from a... family that kind of appreciated the arts that was in a very midwestern you know uh nice way you know a comfy way you know my parents Wisconsin my mother was from Boston my father was from Wisconsin he was extremely he got he was a farm boy that got a country boy that got extremely good education but decided he could have practiced anywhere he was a doctor but he decided to move back to

Wisconsin, and driving my mother kicking and screaming to the Midwest. They had lots of kids. Occasionally they'd escaped to Chicago for, you know, a little honeymoon. And part of that was always going to shows or going shopping. And I only mentioned this because they would bring stuff back for us, you know, albums of musicals they had seen. They would also bring super, not super at eight millimeter condensed versions of horror films. We had a little battle on Howell projector. So when I was young, you know, I watched things like

Frankenstein over and over and over again, freeze framing, you know. I enjoyed it. I screened it for kids in the neighborhood, charge the money, you know, like little theater. I watched my own little too. Good. So I'd say that gives you a little flavor.

And then as a kid, there was a There was a couple of universities, but there was a good private university. What do you call them private? Yeah, if they aren't stake, they're private, everything's private, right? Called Lawrence University. And they had a drama center, and in the summer they'd hire someone from New York to come and have a summer theater program. So when I was a kid, I participated in that.

Was that hugely exciting to see this exotic creature from? New York with this artistic a little bit because they were they were slumming it they were coming to have a little break

and you know one in particular taught at a school here and I think he maybe directed some shows here and met him years later he was a very nice guy you know they was there

for their gave them an opportunity with a little budget and with some local people to do the musicals that they loved and that sort of thing you know

so what kind of like a kid or teenager were you? I know you have the distinction of being both a high school and college dropout, which is a unique. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's to be. I'm proud. It should be. It all worked out at the end. It's fine. The road less traveled. Right. Anyone can do it. Strewing with beer cans. Anyone can do it once. Looks like to can do it twice and still succeed. That's who I want to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're right. Um, were you, I mean, were you kind of like, did you up a good head on your shoulders?

Were you kind of arresting or what? No, I think when I grew up, I was, you know, it was a town of 50,000 people. I came from a big family. And as much as you can be, my father was respected. He was, you know, as I said, he was very well educated and, you know, refined, nice. But he was a country boy, too. So people were aware of my family. And also, maybe because of my mother's accent,

all sounded difference and we looked quite alike and there were eight of us. So I could be on the other side of town and someone would say hey, you're a Defoe. So I had this kind of illusion that we were special and I think for many years I

behaved myself because I had the family reputation. Family Cres, the Defoe Crest. And I had my striving, ambitious activity-filled good student brothers and sisters. to follow

because I was toward the end. And that worked for a while. And I was on the straight and arrow. But then I think when I started to become a teenager, not bragging about being wild or anything, but I just really deeply remember. And it probably was associated with getting involved in the theater and mixing with New York types

and people that I didn't normally meet and gay people that were out and people that were doing drugs. you know, people that were kind of hidden in Appleton, Wisconsin. So I started realizing there was another world out there that wasn't obeying the rules or was, you know, marching to a different drummer. So I think that kind of marked me. And then I had a few things happen in school that I thought were really repressive

and not good. And, you know, I just wanted to get out of there. What kind of stuff in school? Oh, classically, well, just, you know, bad teachers, that sort of. sort of thing, stupid people, narrow people. There were great people where I grew up, but there was also culturally, and also in my family, there was a, you know, a tightness, very Germanic, very, you know, don't know about anybody anything, you know, be self-reliant, you know, it's up to you, it was the kind

of very industrious, you know, not very flexible way of being, a striving, you know, get in the race, beat the other guy, you know, the stuff that, you know, with time you start to question. What did they make of it? What did the family, the brothers and sisters, the parents make of it when you bolted for New York and embarked on this, you know, unusual theater career. They were fine.

They were fine, you know, and I don't joke. It's really true. When there's many, you can allow a couple go. And also, my parents got tired, you know. They both work together. When I came around, they weren't in the house very much. I think my older siblings, they had a beaver, cleaver, picket fence life. By the time I got there, it was all broken down.

I was raised by my sisters. My mother tried to be a superwoman, you know, work and everything. And she, yeah, it didn't work, you know. So everybody was like, whatever. And they were busy with their lives. So I never felt a heaviness or a rejection. The only thing is that my father, it's funny, I used to get annoyed when people talk about my past here.

I am 62 years old, and I'm talking about what it was like when I was 15. But for some reason, maybe you get more reflective. I don't mind that now. Or I'm not going to scold you for it. I'll play, but let's move on pretty quick. Where was I? Before I took that little sidebar. Well, let's talk about, we were talking about the,

what the family made of your move to New York. So let's talk about New York. Well, it wasn't just New York. I mean, because I got way late a little bit. I worked with the company, and I went to school for a little bit, and I started taking classes at a university. And then eventually I wanted to move on, and I was reading about people in New York,

and I wanted to go there. And then I started working. I was going to move there, and then I got called back to the Midwest by a company because they offered me a job. job and to go touring. And so I started working with this company for a couple of years, a company called Theater X. It was a self-run. We made our own plays. It was quite a great experience for me. And we got picked up by a European producer who started introducing us to a whole

circuit in Europe of touring. I stayed with them for a while. And then I really felt like I wanted to do different kind of work, because this was all kind of literature-based. And the strongest personality was a guy named John Schneider and he was the director and the writer and I felt like he was great but I felt like no he was very collaborative but he had one view of who I was and I wanted

to have more flexibility I think and I was ambitious so I think I moved to New York essentially to become a commercial theater actor I thought you know by then I thought hey maybe I can make a life of this you know but that's not what we'd call that's not what happened that's not

what happened what happened is I got here and I just found myself always going downtown and seeing performance and the people I was meeting that I was most interested in. We're doing this other thing. So that idea of knocking on doors and, you know, praying for Broadway really went out the window very fast. And I just wanted to hang out with these people. So basically I washed up on Worcester Street and, you know, tried to make myself useful. Richard Schechner, who then ran the performance. group um invited me to do small parts and things and i was working as a carpenter and helping out and just getting paid a very very minimal salary and like taking small jobs on the side just to live

but being at the theater most of the time and then slowly i kind of insinuated myself into the fabric of the company that morphed into the wooster group and then i spent 27 years with them um and my identity in those days was really theater actor downtown mid-class middle-class kid from the Midwest not very sophisticated

but hungry and kind of embracing this idea of being an artist as opposed to showbiz what was your attitude about like commercial filmmaking and like I wasn't that interested in

that that's not what you know I was Because my eyes were opening, my eyes were opening to foreign cinema, you know, to different political things, different ways of living, different, you know, coupling arrangements, you know, everything, everything that was going on. So that's what was happening. And I wasn't really thinking about career. I was thinking about just getting through the month, you know. But I didn't care because I was having these experiences and meeting people that I thought. were smarter than me, were more talented than me, were more turned on than me,

and I like being around them. So I think I just was happy to be around those people at the Worcester Group at the beginning. And then I started working, and I remember, like, I did a play at the performance group, and none of them knew their dialogue at all in the beginning. And I thought, these guys are bumps. They're terrible.

I came first day like a good student. I knew all my text and everything, And they... The defoe work ethic. The defoe work ethic was biting me in the ass. But, you know, these people weren't prepared in the traditional way. They weren't ambitious in the traditional way. They were all involved in their personal stuff, you know.

I thought, what's this? You know, so I had a little reserve like, you know, they're cool, and they do great work. But when I got in the process, I thought, really, this is how they make things? and I think that's when I broke the back of the striving thing. I mean, still, to this day, I'm very disciplined and I'm a hard worker. But the approach, the flexibility in process and how to get there and how to make things has changed radically. You can't force these things.

And those very people that couldn't remember their dialogue for the longest time ended up being fabulous in the show, and I probably was a little tight. you know yeah it doesn't crush your spirit in the ensuing decades where you go on to a film set and it's maybe it is more of a job for somebody and less of kind of like an all-consuming life but they do get the job done in their own way and i and i and i started to learn that and i think that had you know the wooster group i you know when you reflect on your past they really shaped how i approach performing and how i approach making things and somehow also somewhat how you integrate your work into your life and where your identity sits and what your

ambitions are and where it fits in with your lack of better world let's say not only sentimental life but spiritual life yeah because I and hearing some other times you've talked about your approach you've said a couple things that have really struck me like one is that you know this isn't so shocking I've heard other actors talk about like physicality and how important that is but it sounds like that's where you really come from I believe in the wisdom of the body and I feel like when you're doing things you're liberated you're you know it's you become like an athlete

it's you're not you know you're not conjuring emotions you're doing things and out of the doing come reactions and come emotions it's it's much more organic you know so I think of you know this isn't quite the same thing but I think you know T.S. Eliot always talked about poetry

being an escape from emotion in its precision you know Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's also, you've even said that the script sometimes is, that's not necessarily your Bible, or the words aren't that important, or is that saying too much, or is that? No, no, you're in the right neighborhood. I would just say that often, you know, we, so much of the acting tradition comes from the theater. And in the theater, the traditional theater, literature is king.

The playwright is king. You know, Shakespeare sits on the throne, you know. And I think what's beautiful, not only about theater, but especially about movies, is the space between the notes, number one, and also color, light, sound, all that stuff. Particularly in a film, you're capturing, you know, poetic moments that reveal, you know. It's not just about structuring. You know, everybody talks about narrative. Everybody talks about story.

Everybody talks about psychology, because that's we're trained to digest this. stuff. But I think the greatest films and the greatest experiences and the most enlightening and liberating ones are ones that are beyond description are difficult to explain.

You can. So that's not saying you quit, but I'm just saying we go to the easy analysis and then we start to believe the old you know, the old rules. Sure.

about what is valuable and making stuff is all about challenging how we think I think not you know just to keep us alive you know so we don't get stuck I mean I think the whole idea is you know you got to move through life and you got to be fluid and you got to take on stuff because the second you try to kind of shore everything up and that's what we're trained to do and that's what human nature is you know you get burdened down and then you have so many gods that you have to serve to try to live that you aren't living. So I would imagine, I mean, the way you were just talking. I'm getting a little out there. Let's get back to acting. No, it's good. No, it's good, though, because, like, I mean, I think about some of the early roles that I saw you in film.

And, you know, one of the relatively early ones that really made an impact on me and many others was Platoon. And I think of someone like Oliver Stone, who I talk about a lot on this podcast, because I admire a lot of his work, and I find him fascinating as a man and a filmmaker. And I know he's a challenging man, a man that likes to challenge. actors and kind of gets off on kind of like the friction and that kind of a thing. Not always. He was always

sweet with me. Was he? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, he's a little perverse and he likes to tease, but he never went after me, you know. So what are the first memories that come to mind when you think back to Platoon? Oh, I just remember there was the script

that, you know, was really interesting. And I remember meeting Oliver and thinking, wow, he's not like any Hollywood people I've met. I mean, at that point, he had made things, and he was respected. He was respected as a writer, and even before Platoon, he had made movies. Probably most notably for me was Salvador, which had beautiful things in it. It was a good movie.

So I go in there, and I meet this guy, and it's kind of like the old thing about, it's a through line for me. You know, this is an interesting guy. I want to be around him. I want to catch some of his stuff, you know, and I want to help him do what he wants to do because I like him well enough and I'm attracted to what he's doing. So it's almost like, I want to be a good soldier. It's funny, because that's a good place to be when you start to surrender to a mission to a cause. Yeah, you have to believe in your leader and the cause and the project and all that.

Yeah, because then you can, you're more flexible, I think, because then you're not pushing to, you have the possibility to address impulses that you wouldn't normally have because you're task-oriented, you're going towards something that you don't quite know what it is, rather than trying to explain how you're feeling or how you're thinking, you're having experiences and you're reacting to it. So in that respect, I've always been, and hope I will always be something of an adventurer. An adventurer that you, you know, a film is about capturing, you know, something particularly.

And to do that, you have to stir it up a little bit. You've got to have an experience that makes you have a shift in your understanding. And, you know, it's like when you travel someplace, you can either be a tour. tourist and do all the things that people tell you to do and you can check the boxes and you can experience it and you can tick the card and you can feel better for it. It's not like it's without but to really travel, you know, there's tourists and there's pilgrims, you know, and you go there and you're, you know, you're transformed. I want to be transformed, not because I dislike myself, but I think you're transformed anyway and you ought to participate in an active

way and the beautiful thing about being an actor, you can do it in a structured way that you feel safe because it's an exercise. You're making a work. It's not your life. It's a part of your life. So then you're given permission to do things that you'd never do in life.

Yeah. It's interesting too. You keep coming back to and I'm not surprised. It's about the people too. It's always been about the people. Whether it was when you came to New York and the people you were attracted to here and filmmakers now, it's it's about who you want to hang with and who will stimulate you. And don't get me wrong. I'm not like the most social guy.

You know, I don't have lots of friends. I travel too much to have lots of friends. I go from movie to movie. You know, you make families, and then you leave them. You really do. But I do love people, and that's, that is something tangible you can take. And you can feel life when you affect other people. You know, sometimes I think the greatest profession is being a teacher, you know, because that whole thing, I mean, it's said often, but it's really true that that, the teachers that, you know, helped you in your life, they're with you forever.

Yeah. And there's something beautiful about that because somewhere, you know, we're here to help each other. Do you feel when you're on a set, I mean, bringing it to Florida Project for a bit, you're, you know, you're working with something. young actors, you're working with some non-professionals, which again is probably part of the appeal of the adventure for you. Absolutely. Do you feel talking about, like, teaching, is it part of your job to teach, or is it on them and then Sean to kind of figure it out for themselves? No, no, they didn't need teaching. I mean, it was more for me to go there and fit in, you know, and that's sort of your job always, to get the lay of the land and then become a part of the

fabric, you know, be a color in the tapestry. Well, it's interesting you say that, actually, because like the worry in something like this, I would think, I don't know if it was a worry for you but it was almost for me is like you're pretty much the only name recognizable face in there and it's like is that going to take me out of it it doesn't to your credit and to sean's credit it doesn't at all no because i knew i knew sean the way he talked i mean i only knew one of his movies at that point uh which was tangerine and and you know it's well just his he likes mixing you know the actual with the fictitious and he likes mixing you know street casting with actors. I like that too.

Yeah. And the other thing is it's not so strange because even on a big studio movie, sometimes you're acting with actors that come from very different traditions. And some, one can be a male model, you know? One can be

a cook. One can be highly trained, you know, theater actor. She's multi-talented. That's a bad example right now. But she's She was great, I will say. A movie didn't quite fly every place, but I liked her.

I can't forget it. Okay. When do you think about it? Let's say that for the second. But anyway, where were we? Sorry, I did. That was my fault. That's okay.

Am I so weak? Yeah, then I can't keep my train of thought. We're on forward a project we're talking about, yeah, you're saying on any project, you're working with people with disciplines in various. It's always about, you know, I'm always struck that every time you do a project, and this is the beauty of it, it's always different. It's in film, and to some degree theater as well. But, you know, it's so collaborative. There's so many moving pieces.

And one of the first jobs you have is, what is your job? What are we trying to do? And what is the world? there's probably other questions but those are the ones that come to mind yeah yeah and the people you factor in and the thing about film is because it's collaborative i've seen people that you know couldn't put two sentences together and they pop on film right you know because it's a combination of light sound how they look how they're cut there's so many things and then i've also seen the opposite of someone that burned so hot

when you're in the room with them in a scene and you think this is the greatest actor I've ever seen and then you see the film and you think well it just doesn't it just doesn't work so there's still

a mystery you know you see tendencies you see you do learn things it's not like it's a total question mark every time you go out there it's not a direct one to one where you can track it no so I'm just saying that when you get there, you've got to look around you and say,

what are we doing and apply yourself? And so in this case, Sean described very well that we were shooting in a real working motel. I was going to play the manager of the motel. There were these people there. But there were so many elements that kind of paralleled and informed, you know, the life elements, the real elements, paralleled our fiction elements, that it's kind of a dream because it helps with. your pretending. I mean, I had concrete things to do. I had work to do. I had to learn how to be

a motel manager. I had in the scenes. I had to learn strategies, ways to, you know, placate these people or get them into line. And that's mostly my job in the movie. So am I worried about my responsibility? You know, the only thing that I could do is because they're aware that I've made movies before, and they haven't, they're wonderfully, because of Sean's generosity, his intelligence, and his gentleness, that they weren't

that conscious of making a movie. We were making this thing, you know, and we were doing these things. He was very good at making it, particularly for the children, play. He did everything to make it easy for them and to make play. And someone like Brea Vanate,

who is, you know, one of the lead characters, she, she was in the groove immediately. Because I think something in her life, maybe it's because she came to this country when she was a young girl and she had lots of catching up to do and she had a different perspective

than your average person. She understood kind of the outsideness of this character and the struggle of this character somewhere deeply. And she, as soon as I saw her, I thought, where's this woman from? I don't think she's an actress, but man, she is this character.

That's all you want. So the only thing that I probably did was, you know, show them that I'm not a jerk. Show then I'm an actor that's, you know, worked in movies, but I still show up on time. I, you know, I don't recognize hierarchies. I try to help the director. I try to be patient. And I try to, you know, be sweet and generous, you know, just be a good guy, basically. And that kind of fell in sort of.

with the job, you know, with the character. So, yes, I was an accomplice with Sean to make sure things run smoothly because I had some experience. But it's not like you think. I did not have to tell anybody about a camera or about makeup or about how to phrase something or how to memorize a line or how to move.

I didn't do any of that because, you know what? It wasn't necessary. Are you surprised at this point in your career at the ones that, that seem to resonate with the critics or audiences. This one clearly is, and I'm sure you went into it with optimism, but you've been through it enough that some, for whatever reason, don't work for people. Once again, is it not about that at this point?

Does it not even matter, or is it? Well, you know, I think there's, you know, there are films that, you know, kind of sort of come out of nowhere by an industry standard, and they resonate, and they can get out. out there and people can you know they are for a big audience and I think this is one of them it'll be challenging and so far the critics have been very helpful because they put a little spotlight on this small movie and they've kind of just I really don't read critics but I'm aware because I'm doing publicity that the response is positive I'm not selling anything here but I'm

happy about that because this little movie seems to capture something that people are interested in right now. And, you know, it has to do with, I think, something, it's a good movie, but it also has a humanist perspective that people are missing now in movies and something that they're concerned about, particularly these days, how we treat each other, how do we deal with people that fall through, you know, the social welfare network, you know, these things. But it also has the trick of, it's not really depressing. not. It's a beautifully made. It's also, it's got a kind of sweet, sweet take on childhood. It's just that's shadowed by the realities of children in this situation, which is people that are basically

don't have a permanent residence and are living long term temporarily. Temporarily long term residents at a budget motel in the shadow of the amusement parks in central Florida. It's a world that exists. It doesn't only exist in Central Florida. There's many other places exist. After the financial crash and the housing crisis, there were a lot of people that had trouble finding homes. And here we are, this wealthy country that has an enormous defense budget that goes all around the world, trying to protect our way of life. Well, our way of life is great. But sometimes we don't take care of our own people. Topical as we tape this and with our presidents in Puerto Rico, to say the least.

But again, that's a longer conversation. But this isn't finger-wagging. It's very personal. It's about people. It's about people and about cycles and how to break cycles and how people interact with a tough situation. And one of the things I like so much about the Bobby character is he's a very normal guy really but he's trying to make the best of a challenging situation

and I think it it you know it's I think that's moving the thing that moves me in movies is when people try to help each other it's the thing that makes me cry you know it's a thing that says oh god I got to be nicer you know I got to be better we got to do better you know and while I say it it sounds a little soft, I think it's really important. And I think that all movies run on that. Because, you know, we do need each other and we need to help each other, you know. It's still so many miseries of the world come from a man's inability to sit alone in his room. There's not nearly enough time to cover the films I want in your career, but let me just throw out a couple.

films and filmmakers, if that's cool. It's struck me, you've worked with Schrader. Many times, many times. Like, keeps coming back to you, you keep coming back to him. What's been the, again, just somebody that you click with and you like the way he works and you like the... You know, I've had, you know, I don't always work with him. I mean, if there's, you know, I like returning to directors that I had a good time with, but if there's nothing to do, like in his last movie, he really said there's nothing here for you.

I mean, you could play the bad guy, but I don't, no, you don't want to play the bad guy. Right. for example. I think I like, broadly speaking, because I'm not sure everybody knows his film so well. I like how he, broadly speaking, how he deals with very hot button, emotional things in a very kind of aestheticized and cool way

in a way that you can see it. So he really doesn't work in an audience. he's got a cinema language that he can express himself without just beating people up you know cathartically so there's always a little distance so you can be you can experience what's happening emotionally but you also can see you don't get so overwhelmed with a good cry or an identification that you lose a context So I think somewhere he, you know, he's a teacher, he's an intellectual, he plays with, he's a cinephile, he knows film language. So although he's usually working with a modest budget, he's very clear about what he wants to play with.

And when you're in his movies, he does a lot of his work in casting. Once you create a kind of trust and a kind of shorthand with him, you know, it's a pleasure. He gives you fun things to do. He's at a fascinating career. I mean, your collaborations include like sleeper, affliction, there are a whole bunch of them. His new one's gone on. Doggy dog. Doggy dog, right.

Actually, I confess, I'm behind on that one. You're going to see it. Oh, really? So, yeah, it's a little wacky. Okay, good. I like wacky, as you can hopefully tell me out. I don't like the word, but I think it very, very well may be at wacky. but it's got teeth it's got teeth too

Lars von Trier is a fascinating he's a great filmmaker yeah and he's obviously there's been a lot of conversation with him over a lot of different films and the things he's said he's very he can be very outspoken is what's the what's the misnomer about him

what's the okay good I think he's you know he's a he's a great filmmaker he has an uncan talent to you know deal with taboos that nobody can even get near because of his personal psychological makeup and then he's like so strong just uh with his film language that you know something like antichrist it's strong it's going to repel a lot of people and they can totally misidentify you know they can call him misogynist where it's he's deep

dealing with certain things that are uniquely gender issues about motherhood and about sexuality, then no one else can even touch, I think. And he does it in a way that is filmic. It's not dry. He has kind of naturally an appreciation for a kind of, I won't even say storytelling, but he makes images and events that are unforgettable and are unique. I mean, the three beggars in, which is the crow, the fox, and the deer, in that theme in Antichrist, is, you know, just makes you want to weep. It's so beautiful.

It's so, it expresses something that is so cinematic. No, I love working with him, and his relationship to actors is always strange. You know, the camera's very fluid. He likes you not to know where the camera is. And while he has plans very specifically, and on some stuff, he's very technical, there are huge sections where he really wants you to, you know, go off the page and invent and feel loose, you know, because he doesn't care about the writing. He's very meticulous about it, but at the same time, like a mantra, he says, listen, we only need one. you know everybody's trying to craft a better take a better take he doesn't care yeah 20 takes two takes one take a half a take so he's thrilling to be with because it challenges your sense

of accomplishment it challenges your sense of um telling a story because every time you kind of get your feet he pulls the rug out from under you and when that happens enough you're comfortable with that sensation of falling. The first five times maybe or disorienting and when you're falling and when you're falling if you're not scared interest in things can happen

when you're off balance and you're not scared because you recognize the feeling that's when you can fly. It strikes me you've done almost no television in your career and that especially in 2017 where like the biggest movie stars on the planet

are doing HBO series or whatever. to get famous and rich now I'm sure you've had offers so is that is that a concerted like literally you have not done like a guest star outside of like the Simpsons I think in your career you know I don't know TV and I'm you know I could

talk to you about the differences but I prefer not to right now I think there is a difference people keep on saying no I don't believe it but I'm not qualified to say because I've never worked in TV I only take that from what my friends tell me and what I've heard about how it runs and a couple times they've approached me how they tell me things are going to be

structured. You know, I'm a guy that likes working with, you know, author, director. I was going to say, I mean, that's, I mean, yes, I mean, you know, films aren't run by showrunners. They have terrific, they have terrific challenges economically and they have terrific challenges in distribution in getting out to the proper audience. But there is still a possibility, at least some somewhat to go someplace with a group of people, with the kind of idea of a mission, you go out in the jungle, something happens, you collect the stuff, you order it, and then you present it, where TV is more industrial, by its very nature, because you can, because you're, you've got an audience, you've got an audience in film too, but it's flexible. you know, where it'll go is not so sure. There's more a role of the Dyson film. Sure.

And then also the language of film. TV is very story-driven, very psychological, very character-driven. People talk about the long form. Yes, it's beautiful in many ways. But it also makes actors a little paunchy because you got time. You got time and you become friends with the audience, you know. But that's all conjecture. Because I don't know TV.

I appreciate it. And I love that you are worshipping a. the alter of film because that's what I grew up on and I hope it never. I do. And I feel a little bit like an old crank and a sucker because I know great people, they can go back and forth and have no problem. And I know great people that only work in TV. So don't get me wrong. I'm not a crank. But for me, I'm not there yet. I don't know about it. And also, you know, I have enough time finding hard enough time lately finding enough time to do the things I want in theater and film without worrying about TV because you know takes up a lot of time and once you

commit you commit for a long time if it was the right thing I might do it but I you know also I get a little scared that you know I'd went end up driving on to a lot parking my car in a space with my name on it, going, having the same makeup person, have her hand me a coffee cup as I walk in with my name on it, sit down in the chair, you know, and talk about my family. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. And maybe that's not it. Maybe that's not it, but that's a fear of mine. So if any, if any TV, well, here's the other thing. You know, it's relative to what what's offered you

and what listen I love performing and love making things I would I would do a lot of backing what do you call it

back back paddling if I couldn't get interesting film work and the more interesting work that I could find this is in TV attracting the right people

so well I got to make the case for film because I still love this is really asking too much but how beautiful is it on that afternoon to go to a theater maybe there's not even that many people in it it's a dark room there's strangers you hear them cough you check them out then the lights go out and you enter this thing you don't know much about it and you're doing it

with strangers and you've got to go to it that's a big thing you know uh tv it comes to you and there's a big difference. I think, you know, how you concentrate, how you commit to it, what you're asking to happen to you is very much different when it comes to you rather than you going to it. You could say you choose, but not really.

Fair enough, man. Congratulations on the new film. I hope everybody is hearing the positive word because this is a really special piece of work and the eloquent way you talk about but the need for film and the value of film today really speaks to my heart, and I hope it speaks to this audience,

and I know a lot of film geeks listen to this podcast, so I hope they'll check out the Florida Project. Congratulations on this one. Great. Thanks. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

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