Happy Sad Confused - Winston Duke, Stephen Lang (Vol. II)

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

Winston Duke seemingly came out of nowhere to most audiences when he made his debut in "Black Panther". And quite an impression he made. He's followed that up by showing impressive range in Jordan Peele's "Us", and now the indie critical hit, "Nine Days". Winston gets real with Josh about the early influences on his career and how his presence as a large black man in today's society has sometimes put him sadly at risk. Plus Josh catches up with Stephen Lang to reminisce and look forward to "Avatar" adventures, and chat about "Don't Breathe 2", Stephen's return to his memorable Blind Man villain (or hero?). Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Say, Confused, Winston Duke, from Black Panther to nine days, plus Stephen Lang on Don't Breathe 2. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We've got another two for this week for you guys, an embarrassment of riches. Just too many damn good guests out.

there. It's hard for me to say no sometimes. So yes, a little bit later on in the podcast, I have a brief catch up with our old buddy, Mr. Stephen Lang. He, of course, has been on HappySaid confused before. And I go way back with Stephen, all the way back to Avatar some, gosh, like 12 years ago. I probably met him. Did a ton with him then. And now he's back. Not with Avatar 2, quite yet, though we're about a year away from the publicity train on that one. but with Don't Breathe 2, which is the sequel, as you might guess, from the title, to Don't Breathe. Not Don't Breathe 1. It was just Don't Breathe at the time.

It would be weird to call something Don't Breathe 1 unless it's some kind of meta commentary on sequels and franchises. This is kind of the thriller horror franchise. The first one was directed by Fetty Alvarez. This one is directed by, I believe, one of the co-writers of the first one and kind of like a collaborator and protege of Fedez. And it's great to see Steven back at it doing his thing as the blind man. in an intense dark thriller. Anyway, that conversation's a little bit later on, and yes, we dive into Avatar Talk,

so if you want a little bit of dirt on the Avatar sequels to come, stick around for Stephen Lang. First up, though, is a longer conversation, a real heart-to-heart with an actor. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Winston Duke, first-time guest on Happy Second Feud, so that's really cool. Winston, of course, primarily known for his role in Black Panther, and the Avengers films, but also you saw him in Jordan Peel's Us, and he is now mixing it up

with a much different kind of a movie. He's front and center in the film Nine Days, which kind of divided audiences way back when at Sundance, the last in-person Sundance I was out a year and a half ago, and is now finally out and available to check out. It's a really cool ensemble cast. It includes Winston and Zossi Beats and Tony Hale and Benedict Wong, Bill. Bill Scarsguard. Anyway, it's also a very fascinating, real high concept kind of drama.

Suffice it to say, and this is a hard one to summarize, Winston plays a person who is kind of judging potential souls who are vying to be birthed into the universe, to become full-fledged human beings and be born. Yeah, it sounds out there. It is out there, but it's shot in a very kind of minimalistic way and it's a thoughtful, it's a think piece, right? It's a film that will make you question things and make you argue and discuss afterwards.

And you guys know from my conversations in the past, I was like a big swing, and this one certainly is a big swing. So it's cool to see Mr. Winston Duke at the center of it all. And of course, we talk a lot about just generally his career, because this was a first kind of long conversation I've had with him about his life and work. We talk about how he got into the Black Panther franchise. That was his first major role, came out of Yale School of Drama, contemporary and friends of Lipita Nyango, and Yahya Abdul Mateen II, and now kind of really hitting it big with a wide array of really interesting performances. And he's, it should be noted, he's currently shooting the new Black Panther movie, which,

for obvious reasons, is a tough one without the beloved Chadwick Boseman gone way, way too soon. So we touch on that a bit too as respectfully as possible. And also touch on his comfort movie, which is a big surprise of a comfort movie. A comfort movie I was not expecting anybody to say, and certainly not Winston Duke. I mean, like it just doesn't feel like the kind of movie that anybody, let alone Winston would choose. So that was a fun, nice surprise. Stay tuned for that pick. Anyway, beyond Stephen Lang, beyond Winston Duke, some other things to mention.

I do want to mention some cool Free Guy related stuff coming up on MTV and Comedy Central. Free Guy, of course, is the big new Ryan Reynolds movie directed by Sean Levy. It stars Taka Waititi, Joe Kiri, and Jody Comer. Got a chance to talk to Ryan Reynolds for MTV. That conversation is coming up very soon. I'll put it out there on the social media. Look forward to that. And I know some of you guys really dig.

I certainly do Jody Comer, the delightful Jody Comer. I really loved having her on the podcast probably a couple years back already. Had a nice long, fun chat with her for Comedy Central, some really funny content coming your way with Jody that will not disappoint. So again, just stay tuned. I'll put it out on all the Joshua Horowitz, Instagrams, and the Twitters and the Patreon, etc. Just stay tuned. But I wanted to tease that to come.

Speaking of Patreon, we have a really exciting new game night coming. with some guests that are new, a guest that is old, you'll be pleased. That's it. That's all the teas you get on that front. But again, patreon.com slash happy, say I'm confused if you want to check out video versions of the podcast and the Game Night episodes, among other special treats. Okay, that's a longer preamble than I was expecting, but sometimes you just got to get through the business before you get to the main event.

As I said, one more tease. Later on in the show, stick around after Winston. for my conversation with Stephen Lang for All Things Don't Breathe 2 and Avatar, et cetera. But first up, the main event, the man of the hour, the guy that I'm just getting to know and I'm really looking forward to having a lot of conversations with him in the future because we really had a great chat this time around, Mr. Winston Duke. Please enjoy. Finally, the time is at hand. We have Winston Duke on Happy Second Fuse, my podcast at last. good to see you. We haven't really had the in-depth conversation ever, just these silly junkets. So

thanks for making the time, man. Absolutely pleasure, man. Love it. All right. So, yeah, and in some ways, you know, I hate doing the Zoom thing most times, but in some way, I feel like this levels the playing field. You can't intimidate me by being twice the man, literally. Hey, man. It's never my intention. It's never my intention. I'm always just being nice. God made him this way. exactly exactly um congratulations on all your success man well deserved it's been a busy few years and um let's just dive right in because like you know obviously we've talked um through the black panther and avenger's stuff and and us of course but now we're at an interesting point for you like an exciting point in that nine days i feel like so those first things like i mean

huge opportunity marvel of course dream of a lifetime jordan peel calls you're like what what moron would ever say no to that. That's just the no-brainer. But nine days, I feel like, starts to define what you're about, what kind of film you want to select. Is that fair to say? Is that this kind of indicates a little bit where you're at? Yeah, well, I was deeply in that space, like after Black Panther,

where I'm turning a lot of things down because I'm saying, how do I want to be defined? And in an industry where they love short, quick decisions. They love having easy decisions. They say, oh, you do that well, you're going to do that a lot, you know? They like the pigeonhole. And it's sometimes like unintentional. It's just ease, you know.

It's an industry that is about a lot of returns. So as much as things are. You want to minimize risk as much as possible. Yeah, you want to minimize risk as much as possible. And it's all about getting the return, even on more artistic things. Sometimes they're weighing the return as is it going to be something that is more prestigious. Is it going to be awards? Is that going to be our return or is it going to be something that's commercial?

And if they know you're really good at one thing in particular, they're going to put you in that space. But for me, I crave longevity. So I knew that I wanted to just challenge that system for what it is. I know what I'm good at. can always do that and I'm attached to a franchise where I'll be doing that a good amount. So I knew I had that and I wanted to show as much of what I can do outside of that as possible. And nine days was one of those choices where I said, man, there's a lot here. And then what innately comes with my person adds so much to this story, so much to this discussion.

And whether Edson Oda, the director, intended it or not when he was writing it, my presence gives so much more to this story. So a white male could have played the role of Will because, you know, Will as a character is essentially very raceless or genderless even, you know, other than the fact that, you know, he's called he, you know, he identifies as a man. But otherwise, he's not attached to any of the characters sexually. He doesn't have any relationships other than, you know, platonic ones. And you might even, you might not call what he has with Keough or friendship, but, you know, Keo most likely would. Right. And there's nothing that really defines him as any kind of a traditional male figure other than

how he is portrayed by whoever does it. And I said, this is deeply surrounding the topic of, you know, mental health. It surrounds happiness, internal life. It's talking about what the meaning of life. And you really never see black bodies, especially black male bodies that are usually used most like, mostly for their physicality.

So, you know, it is. I mean, and I appreciate, I always appreciate a big swing of a movie. and this one really like it challenges an audience like I mean I saw this the first time at sundance a year and a half ago and like nobody knew what they were getting into and like the first like 20 minutes you're still like what what world have I just been dropped into and I like and I love that as an audience member and I'm curious for you when this comes to you do you know what you're getting into before you read the script or are you like us like what what's what's next where we go also the scripts most of the scripts that come to me I'm pretty much going into it dry and I prefer it that way. And I say this a lot. I read as both an actor and as an audience member because, you know, first and foremost, I'm just a movie lover. I'm a storyteller. Like, I just love a good story. You know, that's the thing that I used to do as a kid. Like, my sister used to read me books. I didn't like reading the books myself. I'd just always bring the book and my sister would read me the book. And I'd be like, stop there, go over that part again. So I love

things as a viewer. Right. And in a industry, again, that's down. dominated by pre-existing IP at this time. You know, there's a lot of things that's really coming out that's, it's already got a big fan base. We're having that conversation just now about, you know, mitigating risk. If something already has a big fan base, it's already known, it's people are used to it. They know what to expect. It's very, you know, you're not really challenging anything, you know?

And when you have something like this with nine days that is a, completely original concept movies like that are not being made as much anymore so that's something that also just stands out is that it's the type of movie that made me want to get into movies as a kid when i watched yeah i want to get into that because i've been spending since i've done the podcast started it seven years ago it's always about sort of how we were all raised and what kind of movies we grew up on as you know i asked you for a comfort movie i've been asking folks for comfort movies in the last year, especially in this year when we needed a comfort. Before we get to your movie, don't reveal it yet, because it's a good reveal. Just talk to me about how you were raised

in the arts or not. Like, was that a part of your life from your family? What were you into? Give me a snapshot of who you were as a kid. I wasn't raised explicitly in the arts. I was raised, I would say, around incredibly creative people. Yeah. And life being art, as it is, like I was really connected in that way. So I grew up in Trinidad and Tobago. until I was about 10. And those were the most formative years that I think really started manifesting in my teens to adulthood.

So in the Caribbean, it's life is art. The way people say things that everyone uses idioms every single day, all day. You know, my mother, I grew up hearing her say, I don't hold water in my mouth, right? Which means she doesn't keep her mouth closed. Right? If she had water in her mouth because she talks so much, she keeps it real so much, all the water would fall out.

I love it. And already, that's storytelling. Yeah. Right? That's an interesting way to say something that you could say directly. Yeah. Which is like, I don't shut up. You can't shut me down.

Instead, she'll say, I don't hold water in my mouth, you know. Yeah, it's poetry. It's evocative. Poetry. Yeah. So coming from the Caribbean, I was literally. exposed to poetry. And that's one of the super powers of coming from, you know,

immigrant communities is that you have all these cultural norms that, you know, when you come into cultures like the American dominant culture where you're expected to jump into the melting pot and lose all that and become American, sometimes you lose sight of that. But that was my life. My life was storytelling. My life was very verbose. My life was filled with, like, super colorful character, and that was art.

That was performance. And now looking back, I can see that so clearly, like, everything. You know, my neighbors would get into fights, and, you know, it was very, like, performative, right? They would never attack each other, but someone would pull out a machete and, like, start waving it around and, like, start scraping it on the ground, being like, come over here. If you come, you're done today. you're done today, I swear to God. And he'll, like, draw a line, being like, if you cross this line, right?

If you cross this line, I swear I will slit your throat. And they would talk like that, and that was a regular argument, right? So that's how people argue. You know what I mean? As long as they're going to follow through, I suppose. It's all good. I mean, no one went to jail. But that's the kind of, that's drama.

That's type or, you know, that's, you know, what do you call? That's melodrama. Yes. That's, you know, that's a world where melodrama is real. I come from a world where magical realism was every single thing, right? I was told because I grew up on the beach. And my uncles would tell me if the ocean ever spoke to me, don't go in. If the ocean ever spoke to you, don't go in.

If the ocean ever spoke to you, don't listen and definitely don't go in. I'd hear stories of a woman who was taken by, mermaids like she just went she just disappeared her husband died and she would talk to the ocean every day and they just found her slippers one day and she was never seen again and she was always talking about these beautiful women that she would see by the ocean and like she would go and talk to them and she would hear voices and talk to them in the ocean and everyone was like yeah yeah yeah she sees mermaids she sees mermaids she disappeared and that was the story that's magical realism is it happening or is it not is it real is it not you know what i mean yeah yeah you were you were

you were destined for this the stuff on the screen pales in comparison to the stories you're telling me so it's it's kind of been my life that was my childhood so once i finally got into movies and i got into movies once i moved to the united states and i was inside a lot you know it was a new country I had a mother that was working most of the time, so she just had to be like, you go home from school. I left food for you, prepare your food, occupy yourself, do your homework until I get home, and I'd be watching movies, you know, my VHSs or reading comic books.

It's really funny. In Brooklyn, there was a cool comic bookstore owned by this Korean family. And, you know, I think their American name was the Winstons. Okay. I was called Winston's Winston's comic book store, right? Comic bookshop.

And Miss Winston would give me free comics. She just liked me. And it was just like, that was my child. I'd be reading a bunch of comic books and watching TV and watching a lot of sitcoms and reading books. It was just like really cool. You know what I mean?

It was that thing. And I got into movies because I just watched so much TV. you know so so if if i had predicted like out of a thousand movies what comfort movie you were going to pick this would not have made the top 1,000 the one you selected probably wouldn't have seen it you probably wouldn't have and you know what and i consider myself a cinephile i know this movie i've never seen this movie you stumped me and i was going to watch it last night Winston this isn't even available in any streaming service you found a movie that's like

that that time forgot i mean this was a big movie i remember at the time it was a sleeper tell folks what movie was your comfort movie? My comfort movie is Waking Net Divine. And it's one of those movies that I watch it over and over and over. I watch it. I think I've seen it maybe 15 times. And it's one of those movies where if I tell someone to watch it, I'll just say, you know what? Forget it. Come over. Let's watch it together. Or I'll be like, I'm going to come over and I'll watch it with you because I enjoy it every single time. And I love it because the characters teach me things that I literally use for my work today, which is there's no such thing as a small role. Every single character feels as if they're coming from someplace or they're

off to someplace else. They're all completely lived in. So no matter if they have three lines or the entire monologue, you will remember the character. Right. I remember, I mean, again, I confess, I haven't seen the movie, but I remember it's about kind of a small community. Small community, it's a super charming movie about community, actually. It's a movie about community and what it means to actually live in community

with a bunch of other people. So what do we leave and what do we have? And it's similar to nine days in the sense that it's about small moments, and it's the small moments that count. And it's so small moments that actually leave you rich. Money is great, but it's community, it's experience, it's love, and it's people that actually make you wealthy.

And that's really the takeaway and the morality and the moral play around waking that divine. Beautiful, Irish film. I'm going to find it once it emerges on one of these streaming services. And for those that are curious, this came out in 98. It was a sleeper hit. It made like $50 million, like nobody was expecting it. And it's, yeah, like the logline is when a lottery winner dies of shock, his fellow townsfolk attempt to claim the money.

But it's, as you say, so obviously so much more than that. And it's super charming. It's exceptionally funny. It doesn't play by like Hollywood's rules of like beautiful people doing interesting things. Right. So these people are beautiful because they're real. they're all like stage-based Irish actors and they live in every single moment

and they look like people around you so you're just like it leaves you not staring at their faces and escaping into their beauty it just leaves you really following the story and you love it. It's pasted really well it's funny, it's everything. I love that you selected it

because it is unexpected in the best possible way so you tell you no no I mean it's true So you talked a little bit about childhood. Let's jump ahead a little bit because I know you went to Yale School of Drama and I've spoken to a couple of your buddies from back then. I've certainly talked to Lupita a lot. I had Yaya Abdul Matean II on, I think right before

the shit hit the fan on the pandemic and he was telling me happy stories of you helping him move in, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Did you find like a community, a friend group, a new kind of level of camaraderie, in the arts once you got there yeah i believe i did and the the cool thing about yale's school

of drama is they really promote healthy competition right and they promote healthy competition and performance so if you're in a play you encourage each other to make big wild bold choices that are rooted in the given circumstance right and And when someone does that, it then encourages you to do something even wilder. And then you end up topping each other and it's very interesting. So usually our plays would just be so exciting because all that is happening. That culture is, you know, happening in real time and it's exciting, right? Because anything can happen on any night.

Someone throws a ball and you better be ready because you have to catch it and throw it back. And the harder you throw it, you know what I mean, the harder you throw it, if the person's ready and willing, it's magic and it was like nothing else. So that was, that was the Yale School of Drama, and that was the community. And because you had so much trust at times, the bonding would be so rich. So off stage, you know, in private moments, you know, you really felt like you were being seen in a different way than sometimes society was willing to see you, you know? Well, Yaya was telling me, like, I mean, he was kind of portraying you as kind of a big man on campus and kind of a mentor to him in some ways.

And he taught you a bit about, and you've kind of alluded to this already. I mean, physicality is always a huge aspect of talking to any actor, but especially someone like you who's like, I mean, you are larger than life. Like you walk into a roof of your, you can't take your eyes off of you. But you know like that, like that's a tradeoff, right? Like that, like you know more than anybody. like there are preconceived notions of what this guy is or what he's about, but it seems like you early on knew how to play with that, how to contrast that, how to fight against that or go with it. And you talk to me a little bit about like sort of like the negotiation with your own,

with your own body, with your own physicality and figuring out what to do with what God gave you. Well, that that story in itself wasn't really filled with a lot of positive memories. That's filled with, you know, narratives of survival. I've had to essentially learn how to use my body and understand my hypervisibility and how to survive through it because if I learned really young as a young man and I wasn't all, I was never looking for it. It would just be trusted on me that like everyone's watching you. Yeah.

Everyone's watching you because you're tall because you're, you're big, you're black. and it makes your small movements really visible. If you just touch someone gently, it's like, whoa, he's touching them. If you stand too close, it's like, why is this person? You know what I mean? Not even too close because a thing that I learned is that people can feel my presence from maybe six feet away, right? And I don't really need to do very much at times to be visible.

So when you then take that context out of like a fun, happy social space where you all choose to be with each other and you're having fun and you're playful and you're just at the mall and someone's following you around or on the Yale campus, I was bringing some props back to class. We had fencing swords because we do a lot of sword and sword work and state. stage combat work. So I was bringing swords back to class. I had a backpack. I had two kind of cases full of things. And I just decided, man, the sores, I should just put them on my waist

because I can't carry them and I can't double back like 10 blocks to go to my house on campus. I put the sword on them. I'm holding these two things. I'm wearing a big Yale sweatshirt. Right? It says Yale sweatshirt. I'm carrying a backpack, these kind of like duffel bag, briefcase kind of things.

I don't really remember what they were. And I'm just like full of stuff. I'm trudging the class. I got stopped by the police. Police officer comes out. I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Where are you going?

You're carrying weapons? You got weapons? Do you know? I said, no, no, no. I'm sorry, you know, I'm an actor. I'm in the grad school. you know, I automatically just start, like, giving information. I'm like, I'm an actor.

I'm in a grad school. I'm just taking, you know, they're all props. And he's like, no, you have weapons on you. Do you know I'm fully within my rights to light you the fuck up? Do you know that? Do you know I'm fully within my rights to light you the fuck up? And I was like, wow. I don't even really, I don't even know what this is.

to that. I was just like, you know, and he was like, you, you, God damn, he was like, he was the victim. How dare you. Yeah. God damn it. You know, you know what? You, you, you, you might, you just put me in this position. You put me in this position. And I was like, I'm sorry that I've put you in a position to potentially murder me. Right. And that's like one of those moments of like microaggression that like, my size, my hypervisibility, like people hyper-sexualized my body as well. You know what I mean? So these are things that I've been very aware of and then have taken them and flipped them. I say, okay, cool.

That means that I don't have to do very much for impact, that I can do something small. I can have a big impact. And if I really want a bigger impact, I can go for it. It's learning the double-edged swords, so to say. so yeah i mean it's a shitty weight to put on anybody's shoulders and it makes me sad to hear that that yeah but that's the reality of a lot of black men that's the reality of a lot of black men especially in america and in most spaces of you know predominant whiteness um so that was my life and it's a situation where you're also hypervisual uh hyper you're hyper surveilled

but also underestimated. So imagine people always saying, seeing you, but also not thinking you're very smart. Right. Being surprised by you having interesting things to say or having an interesting point of view. So for a very long time, it took me a very long time to also find my voice

because of all these things. Because you start internalizing that you might not be so smart until you have the right people in your life to say, No, no, no. What you just said was brilliant. This paper you wrote is incredible. And, you know, it took years of, like, building that up.

So now that I'm in this position to talk to other people who might look like me or have children who look like me or have family members who might not have had those really positive moments to instill this, I put it out there. And I try to reflect that in my work. I want my work to reflect that. I do things like nine days because when I read a script, I go, man, it would be so easy to sell this. It would be so easy to talk about this in the press because it's so good. It's filled with so many things.

And a big part of my job is to create interesting conversation. That's my own personal mandate. I love creating interesting conversations. Well, look at the films you've done so far, to a man. and they create conversation. Audiences may not love them all, but they're going to talk every single one of these movies.

Exactly. You left me a bit speechless on all that amazing stuff, but good on you for telling those stories because I think it's going to help other people to hear the journey you've been on because you're in obviously a great, rarefied position, but the road you've had to navigate, it's fascinating and heartbreaking in some ways.

Let's talk, so pre-Black Panther, that's an audition of a lifetime and opportunity of a lifetime. Was there a close call to something else that you thought would change your life in the years before? Was there an audition that was like, this is the one, this is going to be it.

Everything, I approached everything as if it would be the one because I thought it all was. Every single audition. I mean, I auditioned for Han Solo. That's one that's kind of interesting. I audition for Han Solo. Had a great audition.

Didn't get it. Was it for Orlando? Orlando. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. kidding. How did it go? Did you feel like it was good? I felt really good about it. I didn't get it. Spoiler away. You know, life has that way of, you never know why something didn't

work out until the thing that does work out is inevitable. And you go, nothing else would have been this and I'm so happy this worked. Well, you know, we talked earlier about community and like, my gosh, like the community of actors and people you got to work with on Black Panthers. and presumably you're working with again on the sequel. It doesn't get any better than that.

Cougler is just the best out there. Talk to me about when you land that role, who do you call first? Who's the person you had to let know that this is it? I made it. That was, so I have, you know, I was under one of Disney's non-disclosures, right? And they're like, we're listening to you. like you may think we don't hear everything you don't hear you we hear you um so i just told it was my mother and sister at the time yeah they knew um i that i think they were one of the first

calls and i that was in a long relationship at that time when i called her and i told her that and that was about it i wasn't allowed to tell anybody else didn't tell any other family members no cousins, no, anything. And it just was this big secret, this big secret for a year. Until it leaked somehow, and it was like, Winston Duke, cast as Mbaku for Black Panther and, et cetera,

et cetera. And I was like, wow, you know. Did that character, did your take on it evolve at all? Or was it fully formed from day one? No, the take on it just kept changing and getting better and better. It was well written, but... Ryan has a really great ability to be in conversation with community. So right off the bat, he entrusted me, even though this was my first movie ever. So how do you feel about this character?

Like, what does he say? And does this feel honest and true to you? And I said, you know, this scene works. This one doesn't feel right. And my audition piece was actually this, these dummy sides. Dummiesides are fake audition scripts that they use to keep the role secret. So you don't get to read a script. You just get these fake monologues or fake scenes.

Right. And you prepare them and you come in. Thematically, maybe a little bit connected to what you're doing. Yeah, thematically connected. Yeah. So that they can kind of get a feel for you in this character function. Right. So they wrote a challenge day scene.

right that was not in the script and I read the challenge they seen that was in the script and I said you know I feel like the sides that you actually wrote just for the audition actually communicate a lot better what this character is about you know that that character is is deeply communal he's talking about family he sees the macro um politics of his country in a very communal away and I think there's a lot of honor in that and I feel like that actually fits better. And he was like, why don't we try that? This was after I booked the job and we're in rehearsals. Yeah. And he changed it. And that's the imbaku that you kind of have. You have that embaku, you know? And it's Ryan who just, he's always willing to listen. He's always willing to participate.

Ultimately, he has the choice, the master cut choice. You know what I mean? But he listened and he his superpower was relying on diversity, you know, blackness isn't a monolith, and every single actor comes from some different, I'm part of the Afro-Caribbean diaspora, Letitia and myself. Daniel Kaluja is part of the British diaspora, you know, coming from Uganda to Britain and England. You know, you have Denai Guarira from Zimbabwe. You have, um, Lupita from Kenya and Mexico. That normal combination that everyone knows. That normal combination.

And, you know, it's relying on that. You have Angela Bassett, Forrest Whitaker, who are, you know, coming from the American diaspora. Yeah. And the superpower behind Black Panther was relying on diversity and relying on diversity within a community. you know, innate diversity within a community that is usually seen as one thing.

I think that's the conversation that so many of us really want. It's like it's not an Asian movie. It's like there is diversity within Asian-Americanhood. There is diversity within the Latin community. It's not, you know, it's not Hispanic. It's the fact that it's these are all different countries, with their own, like, particular heritage and ways of speech and, uh, and cultures. And it doesn't mean in blackness inside them, whiteness inside them,

privilege and oppression inside those same communities. So to say that they're all one thing is a misrepresentation. So it's really great that that's part of, I believe, you know, what was Ryan Kubler's strength is, is understanding nuance. The, the challenge for you actually. and for Ryan on this new one was going to be phenomenal anyway, succeeding this cultural phenomenon that was Black Panther. But obviously, and my condolences, again, on the passing of Chadwick, you know, I knew him

a slight bit and he touched my life like he touched so many. And it's just, it's insane to think he's not around. But can you talk to me a little bit about is it, it must be bittersweet. It must be a different vibe as you guys embark on this new adventure on Black Panther. You know, Black Panther, too, is just one of those things that I can't really speak about. It's like anything can be something, you know. Anything can be taken as information. Yeah, he is deeply missed.

And it is very apparent. You feel it every single day. Yeah. He was a lynchpin. You know, he was like something that glued the entire movie together. And, you know, a movie where the title character is no longer present and in that way is hard. Yeah. It's hard to read.

It's hard to, you know, all of it because it's all triggering because it's connected to your own personal loss of a human being. Yeah. Yeah, you can't compartmentalize that. Like, leave that behind. Like, no, he was the center of that movie. So it's the center of the movie. was also a big part of like the people who's who he touched their lives yeah yeah no it's it's not like i don't i don't i know this guy if anything after becoming more familiar with him i know him as an

actor second you know i know him as a guy i know him as a friend who i hung out with and like had drinks with and laughed with and made jokes with and like you know goofed around with and give me advice and we'd share ideas. I knew him as someone who was sharing ideas with tons of other people and as, you know, a guy in love. I knew her, you know what I mean, like... Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you, yeah.

Big family, I knew her. You know what I mean? It's that kind of thing. It wasn't something that you know him from just looking at him on screen or far away. And that kind of pain is very hard to separate, you know? No, I hear you. And I don't want to minimize it by just talking about the movie, the comic movie, all that, because it's bigger than that. It's more important than that. And I, and again, I, not mutually exclusive. None of it's mutually exclusive. Yeah. Yeah. His presence is, is felt. His presence is both felt as an inspiration for us to keep moving forward. And it's also felt as a loss. Like, we have, we've suffered a loss.

and we're something special. Well, I wish you the best on that tough, but, you know, worthy endeavor. And again, you're with the right group to make it happen. As we look ahead, so nine days, this challenging piece of work, sounds like you're going to do another challenging piece of work, Marcus Darvey, that's an interesting, that's a big one. Was that something that came to you or something you pursued?

It was something that came to me, but, it was like a long time in the works maybe two years before it announced the script went through a couple iterations and a lot of conversation about what it would mean and it's still we're still going through that and we're doing the thing

that I believe a lot of that a lot of projects nowadays don't do it just take their time take their time and really lean into process. Right. And it's going to need it. I feel when there are figures that are so big,

leaning into process is really important because that's what's going to really reveal the truth about the type of story we're trying to tell. So it's very exciting. It's been in the works for a long time. And it means a lot to get to bring the life of someone so seminal. to, you know, a lot of nuanced movements to life, you know. Well, my best guess going forward based on, I mean,

the small sample size of the work you've contributed on screen so far is it is going to be an eclectic, interesting mix of, I mean, you look at the first three roles, basically, four, if you count the two in us. Basically, you're, they couldn't be more different ends of the spectrum, and I appreciate that. They're all different genres. You're clearly talented and can do anything virtually,

and we're just getting started. So that's a thrilling place to be, man, as an audience member. Everybody should check out nine days. As I said, like, I love these big swings of movies. High concept, thoughtful. You're going to talk with your friend or lover after this movie and debate what you just saw. But you can't deny the great performances in this. And as I said, the big swing.

So, Winston, it's been a pleasure to get to know you better today, man. And I wish you all the best. You too. It's always a pleasure. to have somebody that I have a long fun history with, and that certainly fits the bill from Mr. Stephen Lang. It's good to see you, man. How you doing? I'm doing well, Josh. Good to see you, too.

Congrats, man, on Don't Breathe, too. You know, I always love your work, and I especially love it when you get to be front and center and own the screen as slang deserves, damn it. Give him these opportunities. Thank you very much. So we were just catching up a little bit. Talk to me, first of all.

I know you made this in the last crazy year plus, but I did see you in New York. You were helping the good fight of your daughter. That was very sweet. I saw that. Yeah, yeah. That was the main event. I got to say of the past year was my oldest girl, Lucy Langran,

for Manhattan District Attorney. And she ran, you know, a great race, a race full of energy and intelligence and integrity. and she came up short, but, you know, that's the way it is. But I enjoyed, I wanted to do everything I could do to help with the campaign. And so I did that. Yeah, you donned the sandwich board. Went old school in the streets.

Because what else can a father do? I figured I walked the street to Manhattan wearing a sandwich board saying, you know, vote for Lucy Lang. And just incidentally, it got picked up by the. New Yorker. And so they did a talk of the town and a picture. Now, Lucy Lang, my daughter, is a Died in the Wool New Yorker and a died in the world reader of the New Yorker.

So on some level, having that particular article and picture done kind of made the whole campaign worth it anyway. There's the consolation prize. Not really. No, it's good to see. I mean, look, I know that giving back in public service is certainly a part of your family and your dad's history and I like to see that it continues in the next generation. So I'm glad you fought a good fight for her. Talk to me a little bit about, let's talk, Don't Breathe, too,

because as I said, it's always exciting to see you front and center. Don't Breathe was a real breath of fresh air a few years back and really exciting, kind of like nice surprise, like just how well it was done, how effective it was. Were you guys even batting around the idea of this as a potential franchise back then? Was that the hope? Was that the dream or what? No, not, it wasn't, it didn't really occur to me until after the film did the kind of business that it did. Yeah. And, and look, I mean, it just was the elements of the personnel, working with FETA was a pleasure, you know, he's a fine writer, director, great, great guy to work with. So I had a good time doing the picture, albeit a very dark time, but, you know, but a good time.

Yeah. And pretty much, as soon as the film did well, there was talk of it. But it really was, well, sure, let's do a sequel if you come up with something that, you know, works. That makes sense. That's as good or better than the first one. That's not just a repeat of the first one. We don't want to, you know, just recycle the guy.

And Rodo, Fedé and Rodo, put their heads. together and came up with, I thought, was a pretty splendid script. It's kind of a reframing a bit, centering now, kind of your character as our anti-hero protagonist in a way. Yeah, I never like to use that term, just as I would never, you know, just as a villain doesn't think of himself as a villain or it's not useful for an actor to think that way. Neither is it particularly useful for me to think of him as a hero, an anti-hero, an anti-villain, or anything like that.

I'm just, I think it's limiting to think that way. I think it sends a weird, I do think I understand that there's some talk and controversy out there right now about the sort of reframing of the blind man. All as I would say is, see the film before you leap to judgment about, you know, whether he's, what you think of him, really. No, I didn't, I certainly didn't come out of the theater

suddenly feeling like this is, The sweetest man that I should want to have coffee and tea with. But talk to me. I mean, did you guys, were you involved in kind of the discussion process of the different ways to go? Did they have other ideas or did they just come to you with this fully formed idea? This was the script that came to me fully formed. I'd always let my feelings be known about the character.

And I think one of the things that I've always felt was that I've been as interested in his weakness and his vulnerabilities and his frailties as I have been in his, in his strengths. And I think that I don't know if they took that to heart because of anything I said, but, or maybe it was just obvious in thinking of the character. But I do think that that's part of why the second film has the depth that it has, you know, because you start to, because his own sort of weaknesses become very, very apparent and very important. Well, I think it also separates it from like, look, and now that you're in kind of like, quote-unquote franchise territory, there's a, there's a tendency to lump him in with kind of horror icons. But there's a much more grounded, you know, albeit like of the trappings of the genre, all relatively speaking, this is much more grounded than we're talking like the Freddie Krueger's of the world. This is this is a relatable kind of a character in a bizarre way as crazy as that sounds. And, you know, there's a different way to go with a sequel where you kind of make him a little bit more of an icon and less, less human in a way, but you kind of

went the other direction, which I think is a smart way to go. I hope so. I hope we, humanizing him does not serve necessarily to make you more sympathetic towards him at all. We're just trying to, you know, I remember one time seeing, there's a line in a Tennessee Williams play and a nasty character named the name of the play Sweet Bird of Youth and the lead character at the end. And he's a real cab and a heel and a creep. And at the end, he looks at the audience, looks the audience in the eye. And he says, you know, I don't ask for your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, you know, I don't even ask for your understanding. I just ask for your recognition.

There you go. And I always like that very much. It's like somebody saying, I'm here, you know, just, just acknowledge the fact that I'm here. And I, and, and, and there's a little bit of that. in uh norman you know i've i've always felt that if i don't if i don't love my characters no one will right and if i do then you know people are at least going to kind of acknowledge the fact that he he's he's he's human you know does is some of the hard work done because you kind of did the hard work on the first one like do you kind of have to start from scratch or do you kind of like

you know the toolkit you know the the physicality the voice the stuff obviously with the vision. Did you find that it was a little bit easier? Maybe that's the wrong word, but you had a head start on the character this time? It's a good question. I sure I had a head start on. And I think what I had that I didn't have the first time

was an inner conviction that I actually could do it. And in a way, that's kind of its own limitation. I mean, I'll tell you, not knowing whether you can succeed or something is kind of great sort of fuel. Oh, yeah, it's a motivator. Totally, yeah. Really good you go. In this one, I felt like, okay, you were, you know, you had a degree of success playing

that character, and now how can we kind of build on that? And so I had more time to prepare and I worked hard on doing it. And obviously, the set of challenges in this one are very, very different because, totally because of the geography of the space. And the first one, he's in his world. He understands. He knows his world very, very well. And that also provided opportunities to really, really sell the power of the character and the blindness.

Because I could really move, you know, like a shark through territory that I knew. I didn't need to see. This one is very, very different. I'm in unknown territory a lot of the time. And so I needed to be more, you know, improvisational. he needs to be more improvisational in his in his thinking is his dealing with the world and he is he's quite intrepid it's one word for what what did the scripts look like for this because like it strikes me watching it like there are extended sequences that don't have much or any dialogue a lot

of just it's probably like a 65 page script even though it's like a full-length movie I go through looking for my line I'm going there's my line finally Finally on page 32, he grunts. That's my big scene. But actually he did talk, I do talk more in this one than I did in the first one. But you're absolutely right. Reading the script in this is, you have to be very, very careful attention to the stage directions, as it were, because it's all stage directions, you know what I mean?

Everything is. What are the stage directions you dread seeing in a don't breathe script or any script? Like, what, as an actor, is it like, you know, interior underwater? And you're like, oh, fuck, here we can. Yeah. Gee, what would it be? I mean, I don't, I'm not quite sure. It's mostly it has to do with what, what it determines I'm wearing.

If it says, wearing a three-piece wool suit standing in the Arizona desert, it's like, no, I don't want to do that, man. Yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, this is, it can't be easy work, certainly. The physicality is intense for something like this. The nature of the production is intense. But it must have also been, we were talking before we started, you made this in the crazy year that was. And it must have been, in some ways, an amazing escape to kind of like focus in on work.

And you shot this in Serbia of all places. I had no idea until I read the notes afterwards. What was it like to shoot this while the world was kind of falling apart in the last year? It was a gift. It was an absolute gift because I'd been, We were supposed to be shooting this a year ago this past April. And of course, two weeks before I was slated to leave, it just, it ain't happening. It was shut down.

And then, and so we began to live through the pandemic. And then in June, in sort of mid to late June, I got a message that they were prepared to shoot this start if I would leave in late July, we would do it, which meant that we were three months late getting started when you can and you consider the the crisis that the world was going through that's not bad at all yeah and and so we did we took precautions i i you know i masked up and and i got on a plane and i flew to belgrade and once there uh i basically lived between the hotel and the set that was kind of that was my world but you know josh that's totally a and it works very well for this character and who's been living in his own sort of isolation

you know, anyway. So we were, I just considered myself the luckiest guy on the planet because nobody was working, you know, I mean, the business shut down. And yet our film was going. And not only was going, it was a very successful shoot. And in its own way, it was a very enjoyable shoots. Strange to say that was something like this. But so much of making a film like this, this is staging the violence in a orchestrating it in an artful way and in a cinematic way and in a safe way, you know, getting it right. And when you do that, that just feels good. Yeah, you know. And so there's there's a lot of that. So there's a lot of gratification you get from doing scenes properly. So the biggest leap, I guess, like for any like budding potential series

of films is the sequels, the second one. So now you've done that. If you make two, you might as well make seven, right, Stephen? Like, I mean, it's like, it's like, now you're just in sequel territory. Like, as long as there's a good idea, let's keep going. Does it, does it feel like there are enough different scenarios potentially for this character, or are you wary of that kind of talk? I could never say, no, I would not say so. I mean, seven is, I could do six, Josh, but not, okay. I don't, let's not agree. I think you've gone way too far. No, sorry, sorry. I don't know. The only thing I would say about it is that there is a, that characters have, I love arcs of characters. I love playing the arc of a character. It's one of the great advantages of working in television, of course, is that you really do have an opportunity over a long period of time to build a character in increments, you know. A film can be very, very, very different in a way. Well, in this one, I mean, certainly in the first film, the character started out as sort of this.

this block of granite, as it were. And I enjoyed sort of chipping away at it, you know, forming something that's got some dimension. And in the second one, it certainly affords us an opportunity to do that even more so. And I would be always happy to, I don't mind working this character until he's done. You know what I mean? Whatever that may be. Yeah.

So it's not so much question of sequels or anything like that as it is to me. I like a really good character and, you know, I like advocating for it. And as long as I continue to enjoy doing that, okay, I'm open to it. So it took about about five years, even with a pandemic, to get the sequel to this one. This is one lesson that our buddy James Cameron might want to take notes on because, as you well know, I mean, I'm in shock about this in a way. I am and I'm not because if you look at his track record, he doesn't rush into things. But I remember, like to go down memory road for a second, this is where we all. met right on Avatar from what 13 years ago now or 12 years ago I guess um and I remember talking to

Jim many times and he seemed to have like so many stories ready and he's like I'm going to get right back into it are you kind of shocked like was it has it been frustrating in some ways as an actor that it's been so long it's taken this long and yes I'll be it where the finish line is in sight we're actually going to see stuff in a year but what's it been like for you as an actor knowing these are coming, but just having it get it pushed down the road a little bit at a time. That's kind of a, that's a good question. And it's probably, I have to search for an answer because I can't quite remember. I mean, it's become a condition. Living with Avatar has become part of my life in a way. In a way, you know, it's like, you know, it's like waiting for the

Messiah. I mean, I don't mean to be, you know, blasphemates or anything. like that. It's like the condition of your life actually becomes kind of waiting for it to happen. Now, I do recall when we started shooting the sequels, and I think that was in 2017, I want to say maybe, I think 2017, that first day of shooting was incredible. I could not believe it that we were doing. Now having shot the film, I know the film is going to come out. out. You know what I mean? But before I'd shot anything, it was like, are we really going to do this? Are we really going to do this? And it just took so long to get all the pieces of line for him to feel. He had everything. He needed to control as much as he possibly could control, knowing full well that things

spiral out of control at some point. And also factors like pandemics that you had no, you know, you had no idea we're going to happen, kind of intervene as well. So all things considered, a year from now, we'll probably be getting ready to talk about it, you know, and it's going to be a lot of, it's going to be a lot of fun and interesting because it's many, many, many years in the making to me, you know. I feel the way they felt when they built the Panama Canal. It took 65 years or something like that. My only fear is that I'm walking down the red carpet or a blue carpet in our case. And I look at my wife and I say, honey, why are we here? No. To say, I don't know. It's a movie. Who's moving? You're a schmuck. Oh. I got a chance to talk

briefly with Vin Diesel the other day who kind of danced around the potential, the avatar, his involvement in Avatar. I just want to see you, Stephen, in a scene with Vin Diesel. Have you shot anything with Vinya? No, no, no, no. I don't know. No, I haven't at all. I have, I don't know Vin, and I like Vin, you know, he should live and be well. And if he ends up doing something in Avatar, terrific, I hope I get to throttle him or something like that, you know? I mean, I don't care what he plays. He ain't going to beat up on court, I don't think. Now, that's going to end up all over the place. No, no, no, no, right? Has Quarich mellowed at all? Has death been, has death mellowed him a little bit?

No, I wouldn't say so. He's not a, was he never unmillow? Oh, I don't know if that's the one. He's pretty fierce. He's pretty, he's, he's, he's pretty fierce. He's pretty committed. He's mission oriented. He's, yeah, he remains very true to who he is, I'd say. Yeah. You must be excited just to be able to talk about it and to like, because we don't, we know next to nothing. We know like there's a lot underwater. We know Kate Winsley got gets to be it. We know you're involved, but we don't know how. Like, it's just like there's such like an embarrassment of riches. Like, have you seen much finished footage or are you like the rest of it? I haven't. I, I have seen.

virtually none. Part of it, part of that has to do with, of course, the fact that production is in New Zealand. And I think if I were in New Zealand and close by Weta and close by Jim and everything, sure, I think I'd probably have an opportunity to view some stuff. But I haven't seen it. I know that we had a long exchange about 10 days ago. And I think he's very, he's feeling very good about the work that he's putting in to get this thing, you know, where he wants it. So, yeah, it's frustrating. You asked me if it gets frustrating as an actor.

The only thing that gets frustrating is really not being able to talk about it and share it with people, but that just becomes part of your DNA, you know, just dummy up. Yeah. And then I'll see this. After this, I'll say to somebody, did I say anything that I shouldn't have said? Did I blow anything because I don't want to think. No, the secret, the secrets remain. You said you got emotional when you finally started shooting again.

I'm going to get emotional when I see this whole gang together again in London or New York or wherever and we're actually, it's going to be so surreal and I can't wait for that moment. The weird thing, too, of course, and this I can tell you is that, you know, there are a lot of kids involved. You know that's, you know, well, when we started out, these kids all came up to my hip, you know. Now they're all taller than I am. And how weird is that? That means you're in a big production if they are growing before your eyes. Well, we're in the home stretch, at least to Avatar 2,

and then it'll be another 10 years before Avatar 5. But we're going to get there, man. Congratulations on Don't Breathe 2. You know, I'm always happy for all your success, and you're so talented, and I love when you've got the opportunity to show what you can do in all facets, and certainly the blind man shows a side of you that is worth reveling in hero or anti-hero, whatever you want to label him.

It's a journey worth going on. congratulations man and i and i look forward to you know we always used to run into each other at silly things in new york and hopefully as things go back to normal we'll we'll see each other in person again soon i hope i'll see it a silly thing real soon josh always good talking to you brother thanks and so ends another edition of happy sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts i'm a big podcast person i'm daisy ridley and i definitely wasn't pleasure to do this by josh I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that D. Dude, too, is overrated. It is.

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