Happy Sad Confused - Zack Snyder

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

Zack Snyder. Need we say more? One of the most talked about filmmakers of our time finally joins the "Happy Sad Confused" podcast family for a deep dive into his action film loves and pet peeves, his dream DC and Star Wars projects, and much more! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot You mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Zach Snyder, an Army of the Dead, Batman and Superman, and Star Wars. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. You guys know the podcast. You know I like to geek out with a filmmaker, and Zach Snyder definitely. fits the bill of a filmmaker I can geek out with.

First-time guest on the podcast, surprisingly, though I've talked to Zach many times over the years, never in this extended format. So I am thrilled, thrilled, thrilled that Zach Snyder, yes, agreed to chat for about 45 minutes with me about all aspects of his career. This is, for the Snyderheads out there, this is going to be a conversation you are going to relish and enjoy. I guarantee it. He has the new film, Army of the Dead, which is out on Netflix right now, and it gives you all the Zach Snyderness you could possibly imagine and more.

He, of course, made his film debut directing a zombie film, The Great Dawn of the Dead, and he has returned to the genre with a much different kind of a take, a very clever conceit about a basically a walled off Vegas, wherein a group of folks need to go in and extract some money before it's all nuked to hell. smart premise very escape from new york ish vibes we talk about that in fact and it's led by the great dave batista and it's available for you right now on netflix but this conversation goes into a lot a lot of different areas that you're going to be very interested in of course there's all the superhero stuff and we go into all of it we go into the um the aspects of batman and superman and Wonder Woman and all his DC films that have been subject to very close scrutiny, including religious allegory. We talk a bunch about the casting of these iconic roles,

about the actor who was the backup choice to Ben Affleck, because Ben was on the fence. Did you know that Zach met with another actor and was close to casting this other actor, had Ben Affleck not agreed to do... the part. That's what we call it. He's in the business. We talk about the dream Zach Snyder superhero movie, the dream DC superhero story, which he wants to tell one day. And that really got me excited. We talk about Star Wars. Zach Snyder, like all of us, was influenced so much by Star Wars, about the Star Wars film that Zach Snyder, in fact, tried to make years ago. We

talk about that. We talk about his upcoming projects, including a mysterious, ginormous movie for Netflix. So there is a ton in this conversation for you guys, and Zach is a, if nothing else, is a fascinating figure in movies. I know he's divisive. I know some people love him, some people hate him, but you have to appreciate what he has brought to the film discourse. So I know you guys will enjoy this conversation. And again, so thrilled that Zach made this. time. We kept missing each other, actually. When I was in LA for movie and TV awards, I was supposed to see him there. It didn't work out because of like my COVID testing for MTV. I couldn't see him in person, a long complicated story. And then he coincidentally did a Q&A

screening here in New York while I was out in L.A. Like literally like two blocks away from me. So we kept missing each other. So I'm thrilled even over Zoom we were able to catch up. other things to mention oh this is exciting for mtv news i caught up with emma stone emma stone um i know i gushed about celebrities a lot on this podcast but that's because there are a lot of really nice folks out there and emma stone they don't come any nicer or more real and authentic than emma stone had a chance to talk to her over zoom for a solid 30 minutes which was great for mtv uh kind of a Career Conversation. Her new film, of course, is Cruella, which is in theaters. It's going to be on Disney Plus. By the end of the week, I believe, yeah. Well, we're checking out, by the way, Cruella,

gorgeous production design and costumes and all the bells and whistles are in there and a great performance at the center of it from Emma. So that conversation is going to be up on MTV News's YouTube page. At the end of this week, don't worry, I'll send out all the links, et cetera, on my social handles Joshua Horowitz. So that's... something to look forward to because it's been a little minute since I talked to Emma. I guess it was for Zombie Land double tap. So, you know, not that long ago, but certainly it's been a while since I've had this kind of in-depth conversation with her. So that's something to look forward to. Other things to mention, you know, I guess I'll mention again for you guys that

have not checked out the Happy Say I Confused Patreon page. I encourage you, if nothing else, just to check it out and see if it's for you. No pressure. I love you guys that are here for the podcast and nothing more. But on Patreon, we are offering up really cool. exclusives, including video versions of the podcast when possible. Game Night, which we have two episodes up now. One of them was led by, of course, San Juan and Colin O'Donoghue and Kat McNamara in our most recent episode, which was a blast with Jane Levy and Max Miguela and Skylar Aston. And I will just tease, and I'll tease this in the future, because they're starting to come together. All of a sudden, there are a bunch of really cool Game Night episodes with some.

some big, big folks. So I don't want to jinx some, because I haven't taped them yet, but in a couple weeks span, there are going to be a few really cool game nights coming up. So if you want to get in on the Patreon bandwagon, now it might be the time. Happy Say I Confused.

Sorry, it's patreon.com slash happy, say I'm confused. Check that out, and the link is also in the show notes here. Okay, if you're here for Zach Snyder, let's not beat around the bush anymore. Here's my conversation with, again, one of the most fascinating filmmakers out there, Love and Merhaden. He makes stuff that's worth talking about. This is my conversation with Mr. Zach Snyder.

I'm sorry I missed you in New York. I was supposed to actually see you in L.A. We keep missing each other, but I'm glad we're getting a chance to dive in a little more deeply today. You've been given us seven hours of Zach's. Snyder Entertainment this year. This is made up for the few years we missed out on you. So there's always a lot to talk about, man. I'm into seven hours of entertainment. I'm glad I'm here to help. Thank for our buck from Zach Snyder. Always. I need to get back into the factory. I'll let you go in 40 minutes. He'll get back to the factory. So let's start with a fan question

because it gets at a lot of what I want to talk about today. So this is from Pamela Bennett, who wanted to know if you enjoy doing your own original material like Sucker Punch or Army or re-envisioning other materials like Justice League. Is there a different weight on it when you're doing Army versus the D.C. stuff or what? I don't, I don't, I feel it's kind of the opposite, you know, at this point. Like, where doing my own stuff is like, this is just fun, right? Like, this is no, no one is going to lose their mind, you know, over whether or not that's in canon or whatever. And so I really, and I don't, weirdly, I don't, you know, if I've written it myself, I don't, like,

I'm not more vested in it. Because by the time, like, say, Chris Terrio or he and I have worked on it, it all feels the same, you know. By the time you go shoot it, yours, it's, it's, it's, that, it might be Batman to everybody else, but he's, as far as I'm concerned, no one's ever made a Batman movie except for me, you know. And I get it. And not to mention those myths and legends and those icons that you love wrestling with are like, I mean, they're in my blood. They must be in your blood. Like from birth, they're like injected into our brains. So someone asked me, we were talking about today and they were like, it was a fan question. The fan question was, some people have identified Christian references in your films. Is that by accident or on purpose? And I was like, well, let's put it this way. Like, it's not a, endorsement and or indictment of Christianity and it's mostly around Superman because and I didn't invent this he is you know reference has been made right what was made by the creators of yes you're dealing the hand that was dealt that's what I'm not I'm like saying hey also

don't forget right this owes itself too in some way this other myth that we all are familiar with. It's a pretty common thing in the way we talk. So just saying, you know. And, you know, it happens to be interesting to me and an interesting sort of conversation to have about where Superman falls in our collective experience. that is to say, Jesus, Moses, Superman,

and I'm not making a, one replaces the other, one is better than the other. All I'm saying is that there's a conversation, a mythological conversation happening around these figures. And you just, if you don't acknowledge that, in some ways you just aren't understanding the weight and size of it, you know what I mean? And it's no surprise.

I mean, there's a reason why Superman is the big cahuna is the one that will always be the biggest, most important, relevant superhero to all of us is, it's trading on those myths, those stories, those, it's 100%. 100%. So, like, you know, like, literally in the DCU, you know, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman are the Trinity. It's not, I mean, come up. Right.

Like, again, I'm not making this up. This is a common thing. Like, you know, don't say. Oh, Zach, look at Zach trying to, like, weave his religious ideologies into his, like, severe movies. I promise you, this is not, I didn't do, like, I'm just reminding everyone of the mythic power of these figures, and we can decide what to do with them later as far as whether that's okay or not. But I'm just saying that it's important in the conversation to also acknowledge that this is a thing. That's it.

We're going to weave back around to your superheroes in a bit, but let's talk a little Army, because this one, you know, like many of your films, and I know it's been talked about, but it's worth reminding folks that you have a way with opening sequences, and this one certainly is a bravora bit of filmmaking. It's pure filmmaking, and it's just no dialogue, montage, music, effects, emotion, like all the tools in your toolbox. And you've obviously spent, you must spend an in your amount of time concentrating on your opening sequences. Does that come from some, I don't know, was there like an opening sequence when you were growing up in a film that really resonated with you? Is it something you just learned as you went like you want to, you want to catch them right from the start and just put a lot of effort into this first five, ten minutes? Or give me a sense of sort of your attitude about opening. I had a key for an art center, college of design named Mike Annaman, who was our, we called it, I think, was called the filmmaking workshop or what it was kind of like our advanced class and like it's two it's basically where you are once you've done your basics of film and you're like you're

producing and he's kind of he's kind of managing everybody you know you pitch right you you put you pitch and i think you end up i think it's three terms of of working with mike i can't remember exactly and i remember mike saying to us like two things that i think are really kind of interesting he said you know movies movies in a lot of times are scenes right they're a collection of scenes and people people don't remember movies and they don't talk about movies in their totality they talk about movies in from a scene like to remember the part where yeah what that scene where like that's how people remember movies they don't remember like the entire they don't say remember when that guy got found on that planet by that guy who flew a freighter and they went and

got caught on a moon and then they met the rebels and then they went back and blew it up. Like they don't, you don't, you just say, you know, remember when they went to like Mosisli and they went into that like far? That was insane. That was so cool when, when Obi-Wan cuts that guy's arm off. You know, it's like that moment. Anyway, so I remember that going like, geez, that's awesome. And then he also would always go like, you know, and that was his thing. He's like, you know, it's all about like how you hook the audience. Like, what is it that you do that like make some surrender to the movie, you know, and I think that that always stuck with me. Like, and I always liked that idea, you know, movies like Blue Velvet, you know, there's a thing in

these movies. There's an opening first part that just like is, Raiders and Lost Ark is a perfect sample. Like, you know, that movie's opening sequence, your brain is on, by the time he gets to the biplane, you know, you're, you're a map. Yeah, you're, it's happening. What is? This is insanity, you know, and it's, it's, it's cool. Well, it's also just like trust, right? I always love feeling like I can, I'm in safe hands. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm a filmmaker has a purpose, a perspective, and I am, you know, now they might lose me at some point, but right now they've got me. And that's, that's a great place to start. Tell me what else you got. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It would be like, you know, you're shopping for a car and you're like, you know, I don't want, maybe I won't buy this one,

but I'm interested in a lot. Exactly. Let's see what they've got. I want to talk about some influences that seemingly are in this film. I'm actually coincidentally reppping Snake Pliskin today on a TV. Oh, my boy. So this film begins with a hell of a premise, a really smart idea that definitely feels a little inspired by Escape from New York. It was a lot. It was Is that a big one for you? Are you a carpenter? Yeah, I'm a big escape from New York fan. One of the, as an aside, I went to a school called Art Center College of Design here

in Pasadena, California, which when I went there, one of the things I was freaked out by was that the, they shot the entire, the headquarters where Snake is, where they shoot them up with the things. Right. They shot that at Art Center. Amazing. And so the school was that building, like the high tech interior. and I was just like I couldn't I was like this is insane and then of course you know

this pulver the dam is the wall you know right right and I always thought that was an amazing you know it's huge production value right like this giant wall and you're just like how what I just anyway I was this that movie was you know you know it's one of those movies and by the way also I think um you know when you look at you know planet of the apes which is another big influence on this film. They're both like, and I think that where you see the relationship is in this idea that there is a giant conceit, right, that I'm saying, I'm suggesting a giant conceit to the audience. And so being fascinated by the genre is also being fascinated by like, we as an audience, right, you know, that suspension of this

belief that we have to kind of, we have to give ourselves. to the movie like you were saying but it's one thing to give yourself to like a romantic comedy or to a drama you know that's pretty straightforward you know like we I was laughing the other night I'm like you know how when you're watching a drama or like or romantic comedy a lot of times you know you can be like you know what that took me out of the movie you know and it might be a little thing you know what I mean yep you'd be something small like I didn't buy the casting of the sister exactly like she didn't They didn't look alike to me.

Or like when they cast the younger hymn, like, no, I didn't buy it. And then we're talking apes and you're like, you know what? I'm going to go with this. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm like, how about a planet where apes evolved and now we're the, they're in charge and we're the like, you know. This feels right. Yeah, this makes sense. I can see where they've turned Manhattan into a prison and they've built a wall around it.

You know? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, like that's where you've got to go like, okay, that's. like some heavy lifting they got to do right at the beginning to get you to you know or terminator you know like oh guys come from the future to kill the to kill the mother of the hero of the future revolution you know like what yeah okay you know it's those and so that conversation i was having early on just with myself and genre and being like okay like i love the idea that so have fun

I guess my point is like goes back to the title sequence. You know, I, my, the thesis was, I want to, like, I want to play on your love of the kind of joyful filming of maybe it's gore or the joyful, like, experience of, like, the fall of Las Vegas. Right. It's big and beautiful and crazy. And then chip away at that slowly, musically and visually to sort of put you, like, to take you all the way around to like from thinking oh this is a romp like this is like this is just we're just i'm just going to hold on it's going to be fun and then at the end you're like wait what exactly what are you doing like this is pain this is crazy um we're distracted by the mayhem yeah

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly and even just like richard cheese in the like music acknowledging what he's seen is kind of breaking the fourth wall part of it where you're like I mean not to go on a deep dive but I was like I've always loved title sequences awesome because by their nature they have they deconstruct the movie you're seeing you're out of the movie of course yeah people who made it right it's the most obvious reminding you it's a big reminder this is real like that guy is an actor that's Dave Batista that's him that's his real name he's not Scott Ward. He's like, you know, there's the zombies. You know, so it's cool to like contradict that immediately with like, and I'm asking you at the same time while you're looking at the

names of the guys, they're actually like in danger on the thing. Like, and you have to like drink the Kool-Aid of that because, you know, and so that's really fun. And I think that that's fun for me and for the audience and they get to kind of really, you know, if you care, look, for a lot of people, they're going to watch the movie. They're not genre fans. They're not deconstructing genre. They're not constantly having fun with the different references and trying to short-handed and the Easter eggs and all that stuff. And so for them, the movie just plays for them and it's fine. And I'm 100% cool with that. But I do like also that if you care, it's another, there's a fun cinematic conversation happening as well. Army, again, reminds us that, you know, you know your way around

action as few filmmakers do. And I, like yourself, have watched a lot of action films at my time. And I've become somewhat desensitized to a lot of it. And I get really annoyed by a lot of action I see and by like small things, like a lack of coherence in action. Like that kills me that like 90% of action films now, I don't know who's fighting who or where. Like I don't know what's happening. It sounds like such a basic question, but it drives me insane. As someone that is like at or the top guy in that in that realm like what are your pet peeves as a as a consumer of action films like what would you like to see more of what what gets you off what drives you crazy in action film i do like i am a fan you obviously of like smart choreography

um daman caro who i've worked with for years is is is my fight choreographer and stunt coordinator and um second unit director i i don't like giving a lot to second unit. And when I do, it's got to be Damon because he's like one of the only guys I trust because he and I have worked together for so long. You know, he gets, he knows what I. And because we work so closely on the stunt biz and we, we basically get to the point where, you know, I'm like, okay, that's good stunt biz. Just go replace it with actors. Now it's about execution. You know, go put the actors in those parts. film it the same way yeah so we know and also you know i'm i'm really a stickler for

beginning middle and end what is the what is the miniature movie of the of the sequence you know like what is the movie inside of even just this by the way even just in one small like one small fight i'm like okay so the second act is he loses the gun and then the third act is he grabs the knife You know what I mean? Like I like, and we build it that way all the time. So every single thing is kind of built on these sort of little three-beat sequences where we go bup-p-p-p-pup, and it could build and build and build. And then you can look at the whole thing and be like, oh, now here's the three acts of like Sam Winn

when she's fighting the zombies in the kitchen, like each of those, because the first act is the knife, like knife, knife, knife, second act is she goes to the machine gun, third act is two the pistols, right? And, you know, it's a really kind of, and then the larger sort of three-act concept is she gets betrayed. She fights her way back. The end of the second act is she gets caught behind the door. And then her third act is she busts through. She doesn't think people didn't think.

But then she's sacrificed. She kind of has to get sacrificed to get out. It's kind of fascinating. It's like a nesting doll of like. action within action within drama within actual it is but by the way but it's oh but what it allows is that you're always pushing it always pushes you forward you know like always pushes you know like it always pushes you forward and it's and i and i think that it's i think that a lot of you know whenever i talk to like students and stuff i always say like guys keep that when you're doing

action when you're doing even the smallest action like sometimes in a student film you'll even have you know you might have even a small chase scene or one little thing that happens I go, but just do that little exercise, and you'll find that if you don't kind of have a middle beat, it'll, you'll, you'll feel it, like you'll feel that you're, that it's not worked out, you know, and because I'm like, and also do the work. You know, I'm a physical guy, and I like, you know, analyzing the fights pretty carefully. And I think that's probably one of my pet peeves about the other action films that are happening is that I don't know how much the directors are involved in the actual action.

Right. They farmed it out to their second unit. Farming out. And I love to farm it out, but Damon and I are like really locked up. Yeah, I got you. Yeah, 100%. So I know you like many, like myself, your world was rocked. And I think it was when you were 11 years old when you saw Star Wars.

It changed. You know, how could it not blow a child? brain apart in the best possible way. What's your relationship with Star Wars now? Because I find it complicated for myself. I mean, I love Mandalorian. I love Glass Jedi. I mean, where do you think, like, what did you enjoy?

What have you had, you know? Yeah, it is, yeah, it's, I don't think I can ever, I would ever not love Star Wars. I don't think I'm capable of that. Am I nostalgic? Like, is Empire really as good? as I think it is, doesn't matter. Because, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know, you can't, it's hard to be, you can't beat it.

It's just, it's just relentlessly awesome. And also, just as a two movie affair, Star Wars and Empire, really, for me, at that point in my life, the way, even the trailer for Empire, and the way it suggests an expansion of the universe to the exotic is like you know i remember that i remember distinctly um the shot in the trailer where three pio rips off the the this like sign off the door and which is not in the movie um it's it's it's it's not in the movie i'm like and it occurred to me like wow they shot stuff that's not in the movie that was the first time i even like got that that is the thing the Snyder cut was born when you watch them like I literally

probably was um and then you know and there's that shot like of all the bounty hunters and they're all and it's just like you know everyone is like evocative of another story like there are 10 stories on that platform yeah exactly and i'm just like it's that the ancient world building that was going on yeah it really is amazing so yes so my and so my relationship right now I watched Mandalorian and I and I and I liked it but I think that like and I like Rogue one I thought that was I'm nostalgic you know for that for that stuff I like me some X-wings you know like old school X-wings and back in the day there was talk of this Kurosawa inspired Star Wars project yeah I mean yeah yeah and I and I and I we talked about it but

it never you know I mean I've been working on it just away from the Star Wars universe just for on my own just as a sci-fi thing that i was now it's now kind of reiterated as a different kind of project now it's kind of like it's still a sci-fi thing it's the same story just kind of now it's i'm kind of let star wars be star wars and i'm just going to you know the 11-year-old me you know still once make that i just don't now i just know how to so maybe we'll see that someday did did the initial project have familiar characters like was it like Boba padden? No, that's just all. No, my idea was just give me the keys and I'll take her for a spin. It's a long life. We'll see. Well, maybe it'll come back around or a different

project. You got to hope. Yeah. At that time, there was no Star Wars. Star Wars wasn't really, it was that middle time. It was right after they had done the prequels and before the sale. They didn't sell to Disney. Yeah, yeah, I got you. I just like, you know what? I can fix that. I was thinking the other day, I mean, you know, obviously you have dawn, then it leads into 300. I'm curious, like, you know, dark night, dark night returns for me, like many. It was, it was watchmen and dark night returns for the two. That's my, that's my white whale, dark night returns. So that's what I was going to ask.

That's my holy grail one day up there. So you obviously, you know, you mind parts of it in a way for BVS, but the, the, the. I remember this was like, I think you've shot too much of that to make it. And I was like, I haven't, I promise you. So is that a dream one day? And would it like, I mean, do you have you, would it be Cavill and would it be Affleck? I mean, is that any of my anxiety? I think it would just be its own thing.

Really? Yeah, I think it would be its own thing. I would just do it 100% watchman style, you know, really frame accurate, really, really do it. I don't think it's that expensive, to be honest. It's not like a, no. think so it's kind of a it's pretty gritty but like you know there's that dialogue in there it's just incredible you know the re the the the the vo in that movie is just like it's like it's frank at his best you know that whole like you know the rain on my chest is a baptism or whatever that fucking just

i remember back in the day yeah it was like it was the fan casting it was like Clint as like back in the day Clint could have done it it would have been amazing that's the kind of guy you need you know it's some crusty awesome you know it's hard to say who it would be right now but you know you'd have to look around yeah i don't know that we have like uh like it's obvious yeah but someone in their 60s or 70s that kind of yeah but you want i think i think i think probably in their 50s that they could play their 60s you know like early 60s because i don't know how old he really you have to look again i think he's like still in his late 50s in the comic book yeah yeah but still that's old for you know knocking around

fighting. I always love also how big he is in the movie. Oh my God. Like he took me in the book because there's that whole bit where he's trying to grab that gun and you can't get his finger in the trigger guard because it's so little. That's cool. Or where he's got, you know, there's that shot where he's got Carrie and he's like, you know, and she's just so small in his arms and just like, yeah, you just have to find some big fucking guy. It's like, you know, who's huge. I don't know. When Man of Steel began for you, and I believe it began with Christopher coming to you. It's like, oh, you know who it is?

It's like Howie Long. It's like, how old. You know what I mean? I mean, physically sure. I was just thinking of a picture. I don't know that he can play it, but I'm just saying. If you had Howie Long and like Robert De Niro, you stick him together. Love it.

Christopher, I believe, brought you the idea of doing a Superman film. Is that correct? It was to begin with Nolan. So my question is, was there any talk in your mind? Did you want it to be at first in his, in his continuity? Was that off the table to ever have it be in that? It was not 100% off the table. We did talk about it a little bit.

The whole thing is that like, I think that it's difficult and it would have been interesting because that would have meant just doing the math that the Batman, maybe that's why we didn't do it, that if we had done that, the Batman in this movie would have been probably no no it wouldn't have been bail oh it would have been Joseph Joseph Gordon Bennett you're right oh yeah I didn't think about yeah of course would have been Joseph yeah which could have been cool yeah um you know so also I think he kind of and I don't blame him I like that you know his thing doesn't get muddied by these other right it has a very it's a tight box he's created

But I'm, you know, I didn't want, I'm glad I didn't, you know, fuck with it because it's a pretty, it's a pretty nice trilogy. And I enjoy it. So it's cool. You have a way with casting and like Cavill, Affleck, gal, you know, down the line. Which of them was the biggest fight for you? Which of them was the one you really had to go to bat for in the end, do you think? Any of your Justice League? It was discussion on everybody, you know, a pretty big. discussion on everybody, I think Gall was probably the most, and not that people didn't see it eventually, but I think at first it was a bit of a, I think that they just didn't understand, like, their version of Wonder Woman was like Linda Carter. Right. All-American, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, and I had immediately said, I want a European Wonder Woman.

And they were like, why? And I was like, well, because she grew up in some which is not like she wouldn't have an American accent. It doesn't make any sense. Right. She's not from Oklahoma. She's from Fricketts, Thamescura. It's a quite different place. Slightly, yeah.

Most of ancient Greece than it is, you know, to, you know. Kansas or whatever, yeah. So that was the, I think that was the big jumping off point, you know, once they kind of, and I think with Mamoa, it was also, again they were like he's blonde right you know it was that thing of like everyone had a picture in their head and i and i think that thanks to watchman and dark night you know and being a bit of a comic book fan and this and being able to deconstruct a bit i was able to kind of transcend like the pictures to some extent i mean i think cavil is right on the nose you know and i denyable you see him in a suit

It's kind of like, yeah, okay, I get it. Affleck is directly on the nose as well. Like, Affleck is an incredible Bruce Wayne, in my opinion. If you hadn't convinced Ben to do it, did you have a plan B? I mean, I know, like, I remember here if like Browlin was in the mix, which would have been cool, honestly. I could have seen that one. Matias, Schoenhardt's was, yeah, he was, I was talking to him a lot about.

Oh, that's fascinating. Did he ever get in the suit? He never got in the suit, but I did do a bunch of mock-up. with him because Ben was on the fence you know right and I don't blame everyone should be on the fence when you're asked you want to play Batman yeah that's a big come with a lot of comes with a lot of um as he well know as he knows well by now yeah yeah um did you ever read ben script for his solo batman film yeah it's cool it's very cool yeah manganello is yeah also you know magonello has a whole like has his whole origin script like this kind of low budget gritty cool I know I know

was going to be cool too. We covered a lot of Justice League recently, so I won't go over too much. But I'm curious, you showed off at a screening, I think, recently, an image from that Green Lantern scene. Yeah, from the Green Lantern shoot that we did. So is there any scenario? Wayne was great in the little scene. Well, could you show that at like a screening at some point?

Are you ever going to be able to show that? I don't think so, because I don't have the, I don't have the Ben side. I mean, I have the Ben side, but then what happened was when we shot Wayne's side, it was like obvious to me that we were going to have to redo Ben's side again because Wayne was really good. And not to say that Ben was bad, but Ben was just acting at a tennis ball, you know, and, you know, we were like, I had a green light shining out on and he was like, who are you?

You know, and it was like, and Ben's good. Don't get me wrong. It's not a bad scene, but it was a different thing. Paying at the benefit of knowing everything that was happening. I showed him the scene. He knew exactly what was, he knew he was confident and like, you know, and also now that we've like the scale of Darkside and everything, we know what we know what it is.

Right. You know, at that point, he hadn't even seen a picture Darkside. Ben hadn't. He didn't even know what, you know, he's like, dark side, I guess, is what's he going to be like. I'm like, he's this big dude. He's scary. You know, so I think now in hindsight,

And by the way, and I was able, when we did the Martian Manhunter's scene, I added so much more information to be bent, you know. And I also like the water that's gone, you know, Ben, even they're like, he's much more in that scene with Martian Man Hunter that we shot, he's much more, he's much more, it was cathartic, you know, you can feel it, you know. Yeah. You know, I could, I could, you could see him, you know, even when he's meant your parents would be proud, you know, and he's just like, I hope so. You know, it's really this kind of non-superhero reaction, which I like. Did you, how far down your... I don't know, not, I mean, maybe, you know, I got that one shot. At some point, there's one shot of Wayne where he goes, my name's John Stewart and I'm a Green Lantern. You know, it's pretty cool to see some push in, brings this stuff.

But, you know, it's kind of temp effect, but it'll be more seeing probably. Yeah, totally, totally. We talked a little bit last time about the, you know, the death of Robin, which people I know are, you know, that's one of many things people would love to see enacted on screen one day. Did you have an actor in mind or did you, and did you have like the specifics of the sequence, like how Robin went down under how Joker took him out? You know, I didn't have, I don't have it one out of, you know, and we talked about that, you know, we were going to do the comic book.

I don't know if we did. Yeah, yeah, we were going to do the comic book. And I had thought about it a bunch of it. but I hadn't really like done them beat by beat like what was the drama and what was the fight you know yeah I like you know let's just say Robin got some licks in I want them to go down without a fight oh god fuck yeah could you imagine you know obviously army you a bit of more of a running gun approach than then then then the scale that kind of the the grandeur of a justice league Could you imagine that kind of that approach applying to a kind of comic book character, a certain comic book character or story?

Would it lend itself to a superhero story? It's certain, I mean, it certainly could. I mean, I think that it's very much, you know, like if you were doing like any mission movie, I mean, it has a good, it's a good feel. Army is a great feel for any kind of mission movie. I really like this sort of dirty dozen feel that you can get from it. And it's all kind of like, it's pretty gritty, but it's also, it's kind of more artful. I don't mean to be rude in its approach, but it's just like, you know, it's very specific. And, you know, because I'm the DP and kind of camera, camera operator, you get much more, it has a lot of personality, which I, which I, which I, which I, which I, which I, which I, so yeah, it's, it certainly could.

I always talk about Electra lives again, too, as a comic book that you can. me. I'm looking at my comic books. Yeah. That's always, you know, because it's such a good looking comic book. Hard-boiled, too, we talked about a little bit. Oh, here it is. You know, I think that this is just such a, you know, it's got a lot of great, you know, it's got a lot of these great, a lot of these great candles in it, you know, it's just unbelievable. I think that would be fun. And even that last scene in the cathedral, you know, like this stuff. This is, this is like, you know, that's like, you know, that's Frank and Lynn just doing their thing, you know, like they used to in the old days. I just take it. Do you still keep in touch with Frank Miller? Do you talk to him?

I talked to a little bit. I talked to him. You know, when I was working on, he and I talked about, you know, when I started working on the, the last installment of 300 that I was supposed to be writing and then I ended up reading something else. You know, I wrote that Hephaestian Alexander Love Story. And it kind of turned out not to be the sequel the last chapter you know it's like one of those things like you don't know what's going to happen like you sit down in front of your you sit down with your legal pad and start writing and just been just doing some research and i have this amazing um historian bettney hughes that i work with right bettney was our historian on 300 and she's like just amazing genius like historian

you know she's just she's constantly what's apping me like uh zach i'm Alexandria, you know, and I'm like, holy shit. Like, what did you find? It's a good resource to have, yeah. She's like, I've just found a new tomb. And it's amazing Indiana Jones looking for new stories for you. She's Indiana Jones. She's literally Indiana Jones. They're like an amazing romantic Indiana Jones. Like just loves history and just, you know, she and I are always musing about like, just like what it must have been. Just like every now and then she just sends me like this. the sounds of birds, right? I don't know where she was.

I think she was in, like, somewhere in Turkey or someplace, right? And she goes, because we were talking about Alexander's great. And she goes, you know, they must, when they, somewhere where they came through at one point, you know. And she's like, oh, you know, Alexander must have come right through here and blah, blah, blah. And he stopped for water, possibly at this very river with his men and everything. And then she just like recorded for like 30 seconds. Note there's no sounds of anything but just these birds, like loud birds. in these trees and she's just like this is what he would have heard you know these are these

are the birds that he would have heard it's just like to your ears yeah it's awesome it's like it makes you know and you can imagine I'm trying to write I'm start like you know I'm like okay well I guess you know it's a love story can't deny it now yeah but I mean that's just cool you know I I mean, I'm just like, and that's what happened when I was writing. It's just like, when I did the research and just talking about a Festian and Alexander and just like who they were and like, you know,

and I'm sure, certainly I'm taking some leaps of faith as you do, but that's kind of what it's about. And you end up with this. So, yeah, so I was talking to Frank a lot, but before that, but then I haven't talked to him since I did that. But two other quick things. I mean, one other, one of your most divisive films quote-unquote would probably be sucker punched and probably for that reason you'd probably love it more than most of them it's like the child you pay most attention to i heard you mention that you have another cut of it you might pursue can you say anything

oh no i absolutely would pursue i just think that like you know it's one of those things like i was talking this morning about like you know you go i went down a rabbit hole with with well that movie was supposed to be rated r right i wrote it was a hard r when i wrote it was really intense and scary and it was really meant to you know it's probably the movie that i feel like is the most misunderstood movie that i made you know just in it's in it's and it's funny because like even just like to have someone say like oh you know that's like the masturbation fantasy of a 12 year old you're like wow like that that feels that feels like i must have miscommunicated the entire thing because that is exact opposite. Well, you're,

because you're trading on the tropes of that and then. I would say this. If it's the masturbation fantasy of a 12 year old, I would only say that I hope that it that what it would do is if you, if you're acknowledging that, then you're culpable for the fantasy. You know, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make you say, fair enough.

you're complicit but are you not complicit like because you got that because you got that far with it can you not go all the way can you not come all the way back around to you saying you did that like i remember being in the chunk and people saying like why did you dress the girls that way and i'd be like why did you and they're like what do you mean and i'm like well why did you do they're like they're like they get all mad at me and whatever and i and i just and like the girls and i we were all in cahoots you know all the all of us were like this is the movie we're making and but i will say that i did i did count out to the studio and i did buckle under a lot of pressure with the budget and the pg 13 and like it was the first movie i think that i made where i felt pressure to change it

really change it you know with we're you know like we were testing the movie a lot and like the focus groups were saying like less you know references to you know whatever and more fighting you know and I think that was I don't know you know and in the end I was like because there's this amazing

the movie has a not completely different ending but like a real like there's a whole musical number at the end and like this really bizarre ending that just never and I loved it and it was like everyone was like now like don't do that and i was like okay well i'll let history decide i guess at some point i had the great scott glen on my podcast recently and that guy is the real deal i can see how you've done oh my god he is

the best when we were talking about like you know army was supposed like i wrote it for scott originally amazing i can see it yeah you know like the characters named scott of course because that's why all right one last quick thing i know you have to run but blank check tomorrow what's the movie you make? Is there a completed script? I know you have all these things in different stages of development. If I greenlight your $200 million dream project at this point in your life, what is it? That's a tough one. Well, the thing I'm working on right now that I'm working with Netflix to try and finalize, I think that's what I would do. It would be flushed. I'm very interested

in an army sequel, too, by the way. I mean, you know, if a thing is desired. Can you hint at what the, what the Netflix project is at all? Like what's, uh, so close. So close. Okay, we'll get there. You, you know, I think you'll be happy. But, um, we'll talk about it after.

But, uh, yeah, fair enough, fair enough. I think it'd be, it's serendipitous to our conversation. Okay. I'm going to analyze this conversation after the fact. Um, Zach, it's always a pleasure. Uh, you're, um, a great filmmaker. a great conversationalist. I love geeking out with you always. Congratulations on Army of the Dead. Everybody should check it out, of course, on Netflix. And one of these days, we will actually

be in the same city and we'll catch up. I don't think it's long. I don't think it's long. I'm optimistic. Thanks again. Thank you, man. Thank you so much. We'll talk soon. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. This message comes from BetterHelp. Can you think of a time when you didn't feel like you could be yourself? Like you were hiding behind a mask, at work and social settings around your family?

Better Help online therapy is convenient, flexible, and can help you learn to be your authentic self, so you can stop hiding, because masks should be for Halloween fun. not for your emotions. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall.

I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another,

Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bugonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar. In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLewis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell.

Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.