Happy Sad Confused - Zack Snyder, Vol. II

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

Zack Snyder talks about his REBEL MOON films, Batman & Superman controversies, casting stories, WATCHMEN, & more! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! StoryWorth -- Go to StoryWorth.com/HappySad to save 10% off your first purchase BetterHelp -- Visit ⁠BetterHelp.com/HSC ⁠today to get 10% off your first month UPCOMING LIVE EVENTS ⁠Cabaret (Eddie Redmayne and Gayle Rankin) May 20th in NYC -- ⁠Get tickets here⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News.

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I'm 100% fine with that, but a vote against me is a vote for the focus group version. Just know that. Know that by saying, you know, Snyder sucks. You're also saying, you know what? Give me some more focus groups. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy Say I Confused, it's returning champion, Zach Snyder. If you listen or watch the podcast, you know I'm always talking about big swings. You play a drinking game. Every time I say it, there's no one that delivers more big swings than Mr. Zach Snyder.

300 watchman, Man of Steel, and of course, the Rebel Moon films. It's good to have you back, man. Welcome. It's good to be here. So, yeah, like I said, I mean, you go all in all the time. I don't know how else to do it, I guess. My first question is, how do you make sure your cast and crew are as invested as you are?

Well, I mean, I have a very long relationship with my casting crew. Well, my cast, it seems like a long relationship, but, well, with my crew, in that their guys, I work with a lot of the same people over and over. On this movie, actually, my son, Eli, was the second unit director, so that was cool. He just graduated from AIFI, and I was like, hey, you want to do this? And he was like, yeah. You can't trust him, then you're screwed. What's that?

If you can't trust him, then you're screwed. Exactly. And, you know, he's really good. So it was really, it was a really pleasure to work with him. I think it's really the dream, you know, to have your son that you trust, you know, making some great shots for you. So that's cool. My sense from you, like, I mean, obviously, I've talked to you a lot over the years, but I've never been on one of your sets. But I know enough about you to sense that you're probably one of, if not the most enthusiastic, member on set.

I mean, the director sets the tone, don't they? Is that important to you? Not only... I mean, I think so I've only been on my own sets, so it's hard to say exactly what goes on. But I know that we, as a group, you know, I'm pretty deep in it with everybody. so and always I try and if you can't have fun making a movie then you really you have issues and you need to figure out what's going on yeah I mean it's hard enough work you don't want to be miserable like doing it I mean no it's but it's also like we're pretend like we're pretending to be in a spaceship wait what let's like who's mad like why are we mad what what do you

mad at like come on this is awesome so give me a sense on this one this one goes way back for you the sense of completion now. I mean, at the end of every road of a film, it has to feel great and satisfying. But this one in particular goes deep. Yeah, I think when I get the director's cuts out, I'll have the real... Oh, so you're not quite there.

The real, yes, the real catharsis will begin. But yeah, no, absolutely. This is a huge milestone, and I'm super excited for everyone to sort of get there what I would consider, like, the PG-13, sort of complete picture of what these two movies are together, because you do need them both, really, to get a, to have a full sense of what this, what this is.

And so, yeah, so it's exciting for me to get people, to give people that opportunity to kind of really go like, the complete journey with these characters. Like, oh, we collected this swords woman so she could do this. We got this general so he could do this. Right. You know, we have this farmer so he can do this. You know, it's really, you know, everyone gets their kind of full,

you know, their full development and they're full. experience. And so, yeah, that was... And Cora, first of all, she really, she really grows and changes and gets to be... She gets her catharsis from this whole journey. So, I mean, having seen them both now, like, they are distinct stories. I mean, they obviously pair well together. You could probably watch them back-to-back and it'd be a very satisfying, gigantic experience. But, I mean, this one, this is full-on. This is a full-on war film. This is like Star Wars meets Black clock down to me in some ways, a blend of a lot of really interesting genres. Did you think of them distinctly or do you think of them now in retrospect as one complete story? I mean, I wrote

them as a single story. So, yeah, I guess I always did kind of see them together, but you know, in watching them over and over and sort of in the construction, you know, you do get into this place with them where they are their own thing, you know, because you're, you know, the movie starts and it's this movie. When I'm mixing, editing, you know, it's that. You know, we don't think, or when we're working on movie one, we don't like go, oh, it'll get answered later. No, you want to be a satisfying experience in its own right, of course.

I mean, there are sure, certainly a lot of questions that exist in movie one that get answered by movie two and so on and same, you know, as watching movie two. You're like, oh, shoot, that's right. I need to go back and check out movie one again, right? because that, you know, there's that thing. So that all is in there, but I find it, you know, releasing this movie PG-13 version of Scargiver is a really kind of, for us on this journey with Netflix and with this kind of piece of IP, it's really kind of satisfying and fun to let people kind of, you know, have their final chapter. You've had varying degrees of creative freedom over the years. I mean, Netflix seems to be a great fit for you.

I mean, what is the relationship? I mean, do they give you notes? Is that helpful for you at this stage in your career? I mean, on the PG-13, of course. You know, it's like a very, I mean, the process, a very collaborative process on this version of the movie. Like, I definitely listen to everything they have to say. They know their platform really well. They know what works.

They know what doesn't work. They, you know, they have great ideas about length and all these things. And so these are all parameters that we put. put into the making of the film from the beginning. Like, this is what we wanted to shoot for two hour versions of them. We want two hours, we want PG-13. These are the things that we really tried to go after as hard as we could.

And I found them to be incredibly helpful and really smart and, you know, yeah. It's a really satisfying relationship. I mean, and then. And you have your cake and eat it too. Then you can kind of go on. And then the R-rated version of the movie, the director's cuts, they're just like,

Show them, toes of when they're done. Yeah. Perfect. What's that? That's perfect. That's the ideal, isn't it? Yeah, it's the ideal. And it's just like it's weird.

It's an interesting story, sort of in Hollywood. I've never had that sort of wide open, eye-opened kind of approach. Right, knowing from the beginning, oh, I'm going to get to do it these two different ways, essentially. Literally, we were talking about it, like literally, the director's, cut is an alternate universe to the PG-13, like literally, because, like, I was saying that even, there's even moments where two characters are talking like this that's in the PG-13, exact same dialogue, where this is a different take in the R-rated version than I say the exact same words.

Oh, interesting. But it's different take than in the PG-13. That's how, that's how in the weeds we are with the two versions of the movie. Because maybe in the R-rated version, like Sophia's saying in a line that's slightly more emotional in the R-rated version than it is in the PG-13. Because what happens is in the R-rated versions of the movie, everything is amplified because the R-rated versions of the movie have a slightly more satirical, like, the PG-13 movies end up being pretty earnest. Sure. because they don't have sort of sex and violence to like to over the top them so that in the R-rated versions because the violence is so over the top and the sex is so over the top that you

sort of the tone changes right you know because you're like wow I'm in this heavy metal version of this movie really really in it and I think that that was sort of unachievable in the PG-13 and so you so we really doubled down on the sort of earnestness and sort of Not to say that those scenes don't exist in PG, in R-rated, because they do, but they're almost more over the top because I kind of was, it's just, it's funner, you know, it's just crazier, everything's stupid in a great way, you know? So it allows the comment on the genre to be a little bit more obvious. Right. Where I feel like in the PG-13, it's just more straightforward, like this is an actioner with the sci-fi elements and all this things. It's really like, let's go.

Yeah. Movie time. You know, where I feel like the R-A diversion is a little bit just weird. A little weird, right? Yeah. It's just weird. And you're just really like, oh, wow, like, you know, it makes you think about genre. It makes you think about sort of what's possible in sci-fi and what's not.

And, you know, really draws attention to, like, what you can and can't do. Like, this is not allowed in sci-fi, right? Right. You know, and I think that that's a fun, that conversation is like a different conversation, but really super fun. Well, it's exactly. And we've talked about this before. Obviously, everybody knows. the origins of this were as a Star Wars influence project and I'm curious like

why you kept coming back to this like this clearly was such a passion project like you could have easily said after that Star Wars thing came and went say yeah I'm dumb at that yeah I keep coming back I kept coming back to it because I really had something to say I think about you know the sort of tropes of sci-fi and you know the why of, um, of sci-fi in our culture as this iconic, um, genre that can't really, it's kind of sacred and weird. Like the arbitrary boundaries that we've kind of taken for granted. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And I, I just thought that we, I just couldn't get it out of my

head that there's got to be a why of it and how do we break it. And it's kind of ironic in some ways that I, and so I wrote this very extreme. R-rated bizarro sci-fi movie to test it. But now you've gotten the earnest version first, which I find ironic and kind of cool in a way because I'll deconstruct my own movie with the director's cut, so it's a closed loop. I mean, I was going to come to this later,

but it always strikes me in a different way when you look at the comic book movies. The fact that you started with Watchmen and then did the comic movies is fascinating to me. It's so the reverse of what you would have. Yeah. Well, I always said that too, like when we were doing Man of Steel, I said, look, I, I broke in the rules on this. I know, I know what, I know how this works. I know the, I know like, you know, it sounds rude, but like when people would say, oh, you can't and can't do that. So Watchman almost freed you up. You knew like you had done it all. I was like, you know, like Batman can't, like, you know, we talked about like Batman can't shoot someone. Batman can't kill. Batman can do this. Superman can't do that. He can't kill Zod, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And I'm like, it's, it's hard for me to take. It's hard for me to take. that seriously after Watchmen. Like, if you do Watchmen, you break in every possible rule of superhero iconology.

Like, you literally, like, these superheroes can't get it up unless they go do some superhero action. Right. Because their sexuality is linked to their costume and their identity, you know, and they're sort of turned on by their crime fighting, okay? This is where I started. So you want me to go backwards? Yeah.

Now it's like you're going to give me some weirdo, like adolescent, you know, and that's the only thing. And I just think that, you know, but I look at it, but I'm fascinated by that, you know, like I'm really obsessed with the why of that, you know, like it's funny because like after I did Joe's podcast and we talked about like, I saw this headline, it's actually, it's says Batman's irrelevant. And I was like, that's so cool. Like that's such a, well, it's just such a weird clickbait thing, because that's not what I said at all. If, if you're paying attention, I said, like, he's only irrelevant if you can't stress him. Right, right? Like,

once he's safe, once any of these guys are safe. Yeah. And he's safe, then he, like, what, I don't know what, what is, what's interesting about him. Right. Right. Like, how do you stay with him? Right. He's doing the same thing over and over and over. Yeah. Like, like, Literally, he can't, it's like he's caught in a loop, he's caught in some weird time loop where he can only, like, solve a crime, can't use a gun, can't hurt anyone, you know, like, the number of adventures he can go on becomes like, you do, do, too, it gets limited to like this certain thing, and the same with Superman. So I just think that it's, it's really interesting, it's just, you know, genre-wise,

I'm fascinated by it still, because it just, every single super movie that comes out kind of keep, they keep telling, like reinforcing, yeah, reinforcing the, the, the flaws of the genre rather than kind of, yeah, we're never going to see progress or new stories if we make the same thing literally over and over again. And the problem is that like the, you know, commerce is asking for it or the sort of cracking of the code that. It's antithetical to the Hollywood equation, which is like, no, do the exact same damn thing you've done for 50 years. Yeah, yeah, until it doesn't work. And then even when it doesn't work, keep doing it for a while. Right, right. Yeah. Maybe the fourth is.

iteration of it will work the same way. So which of the supposed controversies have called you the most off guard over the years? Like is it the Superman killing? Is it the Martha discussion? Like which one where you're like, really this one is going to bend you out of shape? Probably Martha was the one that really

made me go like, well, you know? Really? That's it. That's the thing that cracked you, broke you out of the thing? So what would you say to the... Chris Terry and I talked about it. I mean, it's obvious, I mean, if you disagree with the concept that Batman sees in Superman, I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the L.A. Times.

And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must season, and case you missed them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast.

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I don't know of a more human thing that was going to happen in that moment. Yeah. You know, anyway, it's not, look, the truth is I don't care, but the other part of it is I do. And so, yeah, so it's just interesting. Those things caught me out. But there are certain things that catch me out where I'm just like, okay. Unfortunately, you just have to take it for granted. whatever comes out of your mouth, it will be turned into something.

It just happens. It is. It's cool. I'm glad that people care, I guess. I guess. It's on some level. Okay, so talking about alternate cuts, where are you at with, like, some of the famous, like, director's cuts?

Like, are you a, do you like theatrical cut Blade Runner? Do you, like, directors' cuts? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I happen to like the Apocalypse Now theatrical. Yep. You don't want the plantation sequence. You're good. I don't need it. I do like the director's cut of Blade Runner. No narration. No narration. Did you know no one actually prefers the narration version?

Yeah, I get that on some level. Because of the noir, there is a, you know, the noir aspect of it. But it was like, it's not a noir movie really. I mean, it is for us because we saw it that way first. Right, right. And so it's cool. It's like an L.A. noir movie with like droids in it, I guess. But yeah, it's interesting. That's just me, and I get that.

Let's see. What are other, oh. Well, there's a lot of Ridley films. The King of Heaven is like the obvious one. People always say that that cut is better, I would say. That is better. Cameron's done it a few times. Aliens hasn't extended, which you can.

take her leave, I feel like. Yeah. Lord of the Rings, of course, extended. Yes. You know, and I think that it's funny because, you know, I've gotten into this, we've talked about it a lot, but like most my director's cuts have always been in response to a cut that I've had to make. Right.

You know, they're not like, oh, it'd be cool to like go to DVD and do you guys, they don't come to me and go, hey, do you have any, can we make an extended version? Right. I'm literally like at their door pounding and going like, listen, I got it. If I, this isn't the movie I wanted to make. Sure. You know, so that's a different experience. I mean, Justice League, of course, is the extreme of extremes.

It's like, you know, you can't, that's like the king daddy of all, like, insanity. What do you think about the fact that, I know you talked about how like the Snyder cut joke in Barbie? Like it's crazy that that Snyder cut is now part of the lexicon. It's part of pop culture. Yeah, for sure. What do you hope it actually means in pop culture? I mean, listen, in the end, what it should mean is, like, some triumph of, like, sort of pure creative sort of freedom for good or for worse, for better or for words.

You know, like, it's funny because I think what happens is, here's the thing that this is the dilemma. The dilemma is that, like, oh, shoot, I liked the corporate version more, right? Right. And then you really have to look in the mirror and they're like, what am I? Exactly. And so that's like, that in the end is the sort of the fear, you know. And the only thing I would say about Justice League is it really, it's really a pure, I mean, some days we can get it, some day we get into the weeds on how, how like contentious, like it was having me sort of during the pandemic, working on my own, no control, like some psycho over this. You know, it was really amazing, but it really was us just doing it ourselves. Pure artistic exploration. Pure artistic exercise.

Yeah, yeah. And so I think that there is, there is the, that, that is slightly reassuring probably for most people because they did probably go, you know what? I did like the Snyderka better. So maybe I'm not a corporate whore, you know, that, like, you know, that just loves, you know, like, that, like, loves the focus group. Exactly. I just want, listen.

If more movies could just be focus group, guys. Just focus group the movies. Just focus group them. Why don't we do that? Yeah, let the AI decide. Yeah, exactly. Because, by the way, that's where we are in some ways. I always go like, look, you may love or hate my movies.

But they're yours. They are 100%. I'm 100% fine with that. But a vote against me is a vote for the focus group version. Just know that. Know that by saying, you know, Snyder sucks. You're also saying, you know what? Give me some more focus group.

Give me the down the middle, vanilla. Give me some more. I want happy meals. I don't want, you know, that's what I'm, that's all I'm saying. It's fine. And by the way, like I say, I'm not, I'm not going to say, like, I'm not going to say, like, you don't like my movie? What's the matter with you?

No, yeah. But what I'm saying is that, like, understand that, like, every tick in that direction is a tick away from, you know, just like some creative voice just doing something. crazy. I'm curious, like, when you see someone like James Cameron, who I'm sure meant a lot to you Yeah, 100%. So he's like in the weeds and avatar and like, you must relate to that. Like he could do any IP he wants, I'm sure and he has decided to spend 10, 15 years more in his own sandbox.

Yeah, it's cool. I mean, we can't really fault it because like, I keep putting out these movies make a billion dollars and he can't help himself. It's like, oh, I guess I'll make another billion dollars. I never bet against Cameron. This is one of those... Impossible, yeah, no, he's an animal. Did he come to your... I feel like I read somewhere

that he was like an early advocate of yours, wasn't he? Yeah, I've had lunch with him a couple of times. When we were doing Man of Steel, I had lunch with them right before that because he was like, oh, you gotta shoot the movie in 3D, native 3D, I was like, ah! You know, which is cool. It's a cool thing to say.

You know, we were shooting out film. I was like, I got like three movie cameras like, you know, anyway. But yeah, but yeah, he's amazing, you know, He's always been, you know, every movie, you know, that he's made, you know, I was right in the sweet spot of my formative, like, life to, like, really kind of hit me between the eyes. So it's been, yeah, especially up to about the abyss, you know, you know, the abyss, I really, I was in film school when the abyss came out, and I was just like, oh my God, like, he's, this is insane. Yeah. Like, how did this movie get?

Like, this happened. Like, they were under, there's no way they're not underwater. that's insanity. So yeah, so he's, yeah, he's awesome. It's, it's fun to see someone who like can, you know, it's commerce really kind of, and without like, what feels like without compromise, you know, that's what, that's the cool thing about it. It's, uh, it's 20 years of Zach Snyder movies. Yeah, weird. Crazy. Talk me a little bit about, like, what have you learned about riding the highs and the lows? Because you've been celebrated and then you've been the pariah. You've And you keep going up and down, and it's kind of crazy, and it's like, you do your thing,

and then everybody on the outside decides whether we love or hate them today. Yeah, no, it's true. So, like, I've become immune a little bit to it, the roller coaster. You know, we're all, you know, it's cool because we're like a circus family, you know, and so we kind of do what we do. We're kind of like a closed loop. I don't, you know, I have Debbie and, like, you know, Eli, like I said, shop the second unit. And, you know, it's pretty easy for us to kind of just stay.

And it's cool because I have, like, a layer of fans that I trust to kind of filter. I know what's being said about the things, but in a kind of, in a much more reasonable way. Right. They're kind of protecting you. They're like, we got you, Zach. We got your back. They are. Everyone's crazy about this.

Or my son also, Eli, will show me some crazy thing, like, you know, that's being said. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's amazing. When we get back to work now. Yeah. You know, and we just, we tend to laugh about it, but like, I did like all the, like, the, did you ever see that meme with the Oppenheimer, Zach Snyder's Oppenheimer where they're all, like, ripped? Einstein's ripped and like, Oppenheimer's ripped and they're both talking to each other. It's like, amazing.

And then what was the other one I saw the other day? Zach Snyder's, I don't know, was another one with everyone ripped. And I was just like, that's amazing. I hope that's my legacy. More ripped guys in film. More ripped scientists. Exactly. Speaking of Chris Nolan, he said a very, very nice thing about you the other day.

He said, there's no superhero science fiction film coming out these days where I don't see some influence of Zach. That's high praise, and it's true. I mean, I'm sure you see the influence. It's probably awkward to talk about your own influence on films, but do you see a little bit of a trickle-down effect of things that you've played around with over the years in films? And what are the right or wrong lessons to take away from the way you've approached filmmaking? First of all, I don't know if there's a right lesson. What's the wrong thing to do? Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I think that like, look, you know, my thesis with the way I make movies is I'm very, it's very instinctive. It's very kind of like the way I see. You know, I always give that advice when everyone, like, when young filmmakers say, like, what should I do to make my movie? I'm always like, listen, you need to like the best movies, the movies you love best, the movies I love best, are movies that. are made by filmmakers with a very particular point of view. They're actually not made by the committee. They're not made in the, well, at least they don't feel like they are. Like, the focus groups are far from them, I feel like.

Yeah, it's like why my most anticipated movie this year is Francis Ford Coppola. Oh, nice. Doing his thing. Oh, yeah. Self-financing, $120 million. That's awesome. Passion project. Come on.

Yeah. And you can afford it because of all the wine. All the wine. And by the way, thank God, that's amazing. probably more actually if you want to but also and I'm psyched for Civil War and sort of for the same reason you know like

you know that guy does not make compromise he doesn't make compromise he doesn't know how like literally doesn't know how yeah I don't think he understands like how to make which is such a cool quality yeah you know like not even so let it get in

yeah like I don't know what that means I don't know what you're like it's really we're talking about Andrew Dominic too like you know oh yeah sure like I don't Like, I don't think he understands, like, oh, the, you know, the audience doesn't want to see that. Like, I don't know who, who are there. Yeah, it's really, which I have huge respect for it, because I just think that, you know, that we need more of that, you know?

Like, we need, like, oh, I don't like blonde. I'm like, we need more blonde. I'm telling you. You do. Whether it works for you or not. Yeah, whether you hate it, you can hate it, but you need more of it. You really do. Because it's a way of seeing that challenges you.

And it's absolutely important, especially in this era, that we support artists that really kind of look at things differently than we are comfortable with. Let me hit you up on some specifics of some of your films over the years. We've talked about them all, but there's always new things to talk about. When you went in to meet with Chris about Man of Steel, what was your pitch? Because he met with a few filmmakers. I'm curious, like, did you show him something? Did you say something in particular? What do you remember about your pitch?

Weirdly, he was a huge fan of Watchman. And we talked a lot about Watchman into how he thought it was, like, released at the wrong time, and that it was a movie that should be, that really was too soon for it. You know, people didn't get it, you know, because now it's obvious. But then it was like, what, this is a comic book movie.

I remember even the studio saying, like, what do you think the sequel is going to be? I'm like, are you? No, again, don't get it. Yeah, I'm just like, wait, what? Did you read the ending? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, and so we talked a lot about, like, I guess I, I think one of the things I said early on was I said, I go, you know, I think if I made Manisteele, it would be, like, the most realistic movie I've made.

And I think that kind of, like, it would be the most, would I consider the most real movie, you know? And he thought, I think he thought that was like, not what I would have said. And I think that made him think that it would be cool. Do you remember, like, how many actors? But he never said. He never told me what I said. Whatever it was. So I don't know, honestly.

But I know that that was one of my sort of pitches. Outside of Henry, do you remember, like, how many actors actually got into costume for you? None got into costume except for Henry. Really? Yeah. I mean, we looked at a fair amount. Right. You know.

Did mock-ups and all that, but they never got to the stage. Henry was the only one that actually we put in the suit. Crazy. When you look back, and I know you're proud of BBS as you should be, but there must have been a moment where you consider doing another Superman story. Was there one you contemplated doing, like a solo Superman project before you went to the BBS route? You know, we talked a little bit about it, but frankly, I mean, and I'll be 100% honest, you know, the fact that we had talked about even just in sketches, you know, because,

Because we put the Wayne Enterprises logo on that satellite, and we knew... So it was already on your mind. Yeah, and we knew LexCorp existed. Yeah. It was really on our minds, and we were, you know... I just was like, having Batman... Once you... I've said this famously, that, like, once we said that Batman exists in that universe, it's really hard to hold them off.

Sure. You know? It's just Batman, you know? And also, as an answer to Superman, it seems also, like, really difficult not to go for it, you know? Because he really is, in a lot of ways, the opposite of Superman, right? 100%. He's his shadow. And so, and I always saw it that way.

And that's why, for me, it was always, and again, that's a perfect example of, you know, a movie that's the extended version is a million times better than the, I think. One of the things I always admired about Watchmen was the casting of the film. And I don't know what the pressures were at the time, but like you cast the best actors for the role. I guess the best actor. And some of them were bigger than others in terms of name value, but it wasn't like a giant all-star cast. No, no, no. That being said, the war is Keanu Reeves for Dr. Manhattan. Oh, nice.

Tom Cruise for Ozymandias. I wanted Tom Cruise for Ozymandias. Tom wanted to play Roershack. Tom wanted to play Roershack. I mean, obviously he could have done. Amazing. But we had Jackie already, and Jackie is, like, unbelievable. I mean, but I certainly would have considered Tom, in retrospect, if I hadn't had Jackie.

So you meet with Tom and you're like, Osamandias, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to play that weird, crazy guy. Which would have been unbelievable, I mean, in retrospect, you know. Was Keanu ever on your mind or no? Keanu, you know, I think we, my wife is a huge Keanu family. She always is bringing up Keanu for every role, so I think that that probably makes sense to me that we, probably talked about that. He is probably a good manhand, but like,

Krutup is insane. Krutup is... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, to this day, Billy's like one of my favorite actors ever that I've ever worked with. I just think he's amazing.

For jumping into BBS, for Luther, there were all these rumors. There was a talk that, like, the studio wanted Tom Hanks, that Adam Driver was meeting with you. I think I did talk to Adam on the phone yet. That's a different way to go than Jesse in some ways. Yeah, Leonardo Caprio I talked to about it.

Kidding, Zach, can't just drop these bombshells on you. What was that conversation? Was Leo intrigued at all? I think so. I think DiCaprio, he had a lot of great ideas, actually, just in the meeting. I think in the end, he was like, you know, I don't know. But he was really smart about the material and really smart about the character. He had a lot of, and then really, in a lot of ways, I think, He, he, he, he, he, I think he was the one that mentioned, to me, this idea about, um, about, uh, Superman, um, fighting the Justice League at some point, you know, and I was like, oh, that's cool. He's a comic guy, as I understand it, actually. Like, his, wasn't his dad like, uh, underground comic artist, too?

So it was cool. So I was like, okay, that's good. I'm going to, I'm going to put that over there. Yeah, I'll take that. It's going to happen. Go do your thing, Leo. I'll take that. Yeah, yeah. Some of the famous films that you supposedly flirted with over the years, how close did you come to doing a Wolverine movie way back when? Probably not terribly close. Yeah. That's a character though that I would imagine. Like if you were still going to...

Oh no, I could, for sure. Right? I could do that. You're like, that's in my wheelhouse. That guy I know, yeah. Who would you cast this Wolverine? No, I don't know. Yeah, that's a long conversation.

That's a long conversation. Did you ever try to make Electra happen? I know that's an important thing. No, but I've always, I have wanted to do that. I wanted to do that. Yeah. Elektra is like, well, Electra lives again, really, is the movie for me. Because it's Lynn Barley and Frank Miller and the whole, it's the old, it's the, it's

like, yeah, that would be, and that book is beautiful. Is that one of those, because we've talked about Dark Night Returns and how if you were ever to do it? Dark Night Returns is the only movie I would do, if, only real comic book movie I would do tomorrow if I could get a chance to do it, yeah. What's the, because I know you would want to do it more like Watchman style, like comic act. comic accurate 100%.

So what's the panel, what's the one or two scenes you would want to depict? Oh my gosh. That is endless. That's like panel one, the last panel. Yeah. Yeah, no, that one is... Iconic scene after iconic scene. That is literally my Bible, so there's no way I would like.

That would be something fun to do, I think. And I think it... It's a cult movie, you know, that maybe that's what, you know, that kind of... Hey, Tom. Well, big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth-shaking. Heartbeat sound effect, big. Mait is back.

That's right. After a brief snack nap. We're coming back. We're picking snacks. We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back.

Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us. Call us. Are you looking for a movie review show where the critic is at the top of his or her game, meticulously breaking down and explaining exactly why a film does or does not work? Well, good luck with the search. Because we're having fun here on Adam does movies.

Each and every week, I hit the big blockbusters, I cover the streamers, and I even toss in some movie news for fun. Check out the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube, and hopefully we can do movies together. Hot. At some point it's going to need to get done, I think, just because it's so... So, it's so weird. It's so weird.

And so weird. And so now it's so 80s and so period, which I love about it. The Reagan stuff. Yeah, Reagan. It's got to have Reagan for 100%. It's got to be Reagan. Just like Nixon, like they didn't want Nixon in Watchmen. They were like really...

They were really against Nixon, yeah. And I was like, no, it's got to be Nixon. It's got to be actually, you know, they didn't want it set in the 80s. They wanted it now. They wanted War on Terror. I've said this many times. But yeah. It's, uh, I was just like, no, it's got to be Nixon.

Nixon's the best. Yeah. Okay. It's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhaust. even impossible to keep up with.

I'm Brad Nilke, I'm the host of Start Here, the daily podcast from ABC News. And every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning, start smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Video game adaptations, I mean, we're in an era where we're starting to see some really good stuff, especially on TV, Last of Us, Fallout, I've been watching is great. Yeah, it's hard. Well, those ones, I think, you know, have evolved, you know.

They don't require, they can be from the source material a bit more than I think what we've had in the past, you know, these sort of open universe games that you try and make into a, movie requires a story be created. Yeah, they're taking the title, the IP, and they're just kind of... Yeah, yeah. Hiring a crappy screenwriter and doing... It's like making a paintball movie. You know what I mean? It's like difficult, you know?

There's no... The experience of the game is better. You know what I mean? Regardless. So yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Video games are tough. But it could be something cool.

Where are you at now? I know, like, you're taking a break, obviously, from the comic book universe and if and when it comes right back around, who knows. but, like, as a consumer of it all. Like, do you enjoy the multiverse stuff? Both DC and Marvel are doing that. Is that, like, your jam? Yeah, not really.

Not really. I mean, I got to be honest, I spend my time, you know, I do it. Like I said, I, you know, I've been doing, I make a lot of pottery. I kind of, like, you know, I like to draw a lot. Right. I'm, you know, I write, you know, and we're always writing. I think that the idea of consuming an entire universe of comic books is really kind of exhausting. Though I feel like it's a slippery slope for me because if I started getting into it, I would go down.

It's also got to be so complex for you because you lived and breathed this stuff. You as a kid, as an adult, you made the stuff, put through the ringer in various different ways. And it's got to be, it's sad to say, but I would imagine it has to be compromised a little, it's tainted a little bit. It is, 100%. It is 100%. That's why, in a lot of ways, Dark Night is like the only exception, because it sort of exists in my mind before everything else.

Because I consume, you know, Watchman and Dark Night really, for me, existed before my movie career, before my, I didn't, I was reading those things. with no idea I would ever make a movie. 100%. Is there a filmmaker or film that inspires you today when you see what Deney does with Dune? Oh, yeah, of course. George Miller still cranking out these epics.

Of course. I'm a huge fan. I love it, you know. I can go and Chris can say, come see Oppenheimer and IMAX. You know, there's only a few of us here, and I'm like fucking jump in my car and zoom down. You know, it's like I love it.

I love movies and I love. You know, and I love seeing things I wouldn't think of, you know. It's really incredible. That's what I'm sort of trying to encourage, you know, what I encourage in filmmakers and what I'm encouraged by in filmmaking is just that thing, like, holy shit, what I wouldn't have thought of that. That's insane. Like, what a surprise, you know, like, you just got me.

Right. You know, or I'm anxious or whatever it is, you know, it's always cool. I'm sure you don't look at your career like this, but, like, you know, we talked about it's been like 20 years, like a 20-year block, and this is the first 20-year chunk of your career. Yeah. And you've got probably two or three, hopefully more of these than you. Yeah. Like, what do you imagine, you know, we're talking 20 years from now?

What's the next chunk? What does it look like? Does it look much different than the first 20? Yeah, I think it does. I mean, I don't know what it is, but it's, it's, you know, it's whether or not, you know, I take, what kind of advantage I take of my, um, my status as provocateur, you know, that'll be the question, you know, um, I, it doesn't feel like you're ready to start playing it safe now.

Absolutely not. I mean, I just saw Rebel Moon part two. There's nothing in there. It's safe. Yeah. And I saw the PG-13. Yeah. PG-13 is a joke.

As far as it's safeness. It is. I can't wait for you to see the R-rated version. I can't wait. Because I think it's just, you understand really the sort of why of the whole thing. Not to say, I love the PG-13. It's a passion of mine. And, you know, of course, we poured our heart and souls into it.

But, you know, there was a means. We did it for a reason. I get it. Yeah, but I don't think, no, we're absolutely not going to play it safe. It really depends on, like, I guess my point would be what, what the window into sort of to say provocateur or to say like how we rile up the audience in the way that I clearly have a sort of polarizing effect on unwittingly on the world and doing that in what I consider a safe genre in like

safe genres, like not a sci-fi movie. Yeah. What? Like, just a space movie. It's nothing crazy. Comic book movie. It's Batman, Superman movies. You know, be safe.

Well, you're also the guy that wants to do the Fountain Head. So you know what's going to come at you if you do that. No, of course. By the way, Fountainhead would be the most hilarious, the most hilarious. I feel like at that point that they would, people would have to be like, okay. You know what I mean? Like it feels like that's like such lame little. hanging fruit that I feel like it would almost it's almost anticlimactic so it's got to be something

there's got to be something that you know we really can just test uh I feel like we're still waiting to find that thing that's where I get to really flex it hard right and the the NC 17 animated the Pixar movie the uh again something with the genre yes exactly well I feel like when you see the I think when you see the um my my North's mythology animated series is very adult very crazy yeah But it, again, you know, it's Norse mythology, so it's a certain, it's already in a, it's already in a genre, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. But it's fun, yeah. All right, let me end with the happy, second fuse, profoundly random questionnaire.

Zach, do you collect anything? What do you collect? What do I collect? Geez, do I collect anything? Controversies. It's really good. Well, yeah, I have a few of those in the closet. Yeah, no, cameras.

Yeah. Cameras. I just looked at my office. It's funny, I didn't see the cameras in my, in the picture of my office, and then I looked at the cameras in that same picture, and I was like, holy shit, there's cameras everywhere. It's funny, my son would walk in, like, makes fun, he walks in, he goes, oh, so, you know, you're interested in photography a little bit? A little bit?

It's just lenses lie on the ground, like it looks like a junkyard, it's like a secondhand store of, like, you know, of cameras. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings. A Lord of the Rings. I think I know the Star Wars or Star Trek. That's Star Wars. But? No, it's fine.

Okay. James Bond or Doctor Who? I'm James Bond, I know. Yeah. He wouldn't think, but I'm nostalgic. Are you a Connery guy? Is that? Oh, yeah. Do you have, like, just no horse in the race?

Do you have a bond that you'd like to see? You know the names that are all out there. Is anyone John out of you? Oh, oh, James Bond, no. I don't have a bond. I mean, I have my own bond that I'm not going to say. Okay. Okay. Is that when you've worked with?

No. Okay. Movie, you're embarrassed to admit you've never seen. I'm embarrassed to admit you've never seen. Wow. That's a tough one. I don't want to ruin your street cred. Jeez.

It's not Curacao. That's all over this one, clearly. No, no, that would be difficult. Gosh, you'd have to be... I'm trying to think. Is there a genre that you're just like less well-versed in? Yeah, there's probably some famous romantic comedy I haven't seen. I can't think of any.

Because you haven't seen them. You don't even know the name. What is your favorite video game of all time? Now it's Fortnite. It wasn't, I would have told you. A year ago was something. Like, that's a stupid game. I don't want anything to do with Fortnite.

Are you serious? And now I'm just jonesing for the W is like crazy. Just want those wins. sweet Vicks, but I'm trying to hold, like my wife got mad at me one, three a.m. a couple months ago, and I had to go, she's like, would you get back to your pottery and put these like the controller down? Like, what do you have to show for it? I guess that was really good. And at least she goes, look, you have all this, these cool things you made. And I was like, okay, you're right. If you were to host a podcast, deal my job, what's the subject of the podcast? What could

you talk endlessly about? I could talk endlessly about sort of modern myth, I think. Adam and I, my friend Adam Foreman, he and I, like, I'll call him, like I'm driving, I'll call him, and we'll just start ranting. And I literally am like, there should be a podcast, we should be podcast. There should be getting recorded. Like, we're insane. Like, this is great.

But it's really always about, you know, it's always about, like, for instance, we had this incredible conversation about camp versus. is Kitch, you know, and it's just this amazing, like, you know, I'm, I'm a Kitch filmmaker. Like, I know I am, and I, but, like, Kitch in the most, like, high art version of it, you know. And I think that that, you know, in the NCY school of Kitch, you know. Let me end with this. In the spirit of Happy, Say, I Confuse, an actor who makes you happy, always, you see them on screen. Jack Block.

Definitely. A movie that makes you sad. A river runs through it. Oh. And a food that makes you confused, Zach. What food confuses you? The food that makes me confused. Anything sort of jelly like.

It's the consistency. Yeah. You're not, yeah. It's not the taste. Especially when it's savory. Right. Yeah. Because jello you get, but like a...

You know, like the kind of fatty gelatin. Mm-hmm. That's difficult. Yeah. I can support. All right, I'll let you get back to Fortnite and finishing... It's not gonna happen. Stop it.

sure. Wait, the point. A little more will make you feel good. You need some Vicks. Get out there. Congratulations, man.

Keep swinging big. Rebel Moon Part 2, The Scargiver. Everybody should check out and I honestly can't wait to see the extended cuts. Okay, cool.

Yeah. All right. Good to see you. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review,

rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Are you looking for a movie review show where the critic is at the top of his or her game,

meticulously breaking down and explaining exactly why a film does or does not work? Well, good luck with the search. Because we're having fun here on Adam does movies. I talk to you like we just got done seeing a movie together, giving you the pros and cons, and I'm digging in the trenches in the mud and muck on streaming service. telling you which films are worth your time. Each and every week I hit the big blockbusters, I cover the streamers, and I even toss in some movie news for fun. Because this show is Adam does movies.

I'm obviously Adam, I probably should have led with that. But perhaps I have led you to check out the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, on YouTube. And hopefully, we can do movies together. Ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-hot.