Happy Sad Confused - Zack Snyder, Vol. III

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

It is the 10th anniversary of BATMAN V. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE and we are looking back with the man who made it happen, visionary director Zack Snyder. From casting to the controversies to the future of the Snyderverse this is a must watch episode for any superhero fan. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! QUINCE -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. NordVPN -- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Saily -- 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code HSC at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://saily.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Searchlight Pictures presents in the blink of an eye on Hulu on Disney Plus, a sweeping science fiction drama spanning the Stone Age, the present day, and the distant future, about the essence of what it means to be human, regardless of our place in history. The film is directed by Oscar-winning filmmaker Andrew Stanton and stars Rashida Jones, Kate McKinnon, and Dave Diggs. Stream in the blink of an eye now only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Sign up at Disneyplus.com. These movies are really personal to me. right like Zach Snyder's just as like I put my fucking name on that movie right like I

literally put my name above the title it's insanity right like you want to like punch me in the face like I deserve it for that you know but because my point is is that like I wanted people to understand that this to me was like yeah it's in my DNA it's it's it's elemental to the way I think Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Say, I Confused. We are taking a big old look back.

Ten years later, director, Zach Snyder and I are going to reminisce about Batman v. Superman Dawn of Justice. Strapping, here we go. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, enjoying us on Spotify or YouTube, however you're doing it. If you're new to the podcast, where have you been, check us out. go back into the archives, 700 episodes are waiting for you, and remember hit that subscribe button

to enjoy all we do over here. We've done a bunch of these kind of reunion anniversary episodes, did one for Galaxy Quest, with Sam Rockwell and Justin Long, one with Francis Lawrence and Keanu Reeves for Constantine. I love doing these things. And I hit up Zach, Mr. Snyder, to talk about this one, and he was game, and we had a great chat. This is really, for comic book heads, for Zach Snyderheads, this is going to be a big old treat for you. Before we get to that, quick reminder, as always, if you want more of what I do, bonus materials, early access, all that kind of fun stuff, Patreon.com slash happy, say I confused. We do a lot of live events here in New York and sometimes elsewhere. Discount codes to that, early access to that. All our podcast episodes go up

early over there. announcements of guests go up their first, lots of cool stuff. So if you like what I do, this helps us make more of what we do, Patreon.com, slash happy, say I can. confused. Okay, so this is a real treat. Zach Snyder's not on the publicity trail. This is a one-off. This is something he did because he wanted to talk with me about this. And yeah, can you believe it? It's been 10 years almost to the day. As of like, I think about a week or so, week or two from now, what would be the 10th anniversary exactly of Batman v. Superman, Dawn of Justice. You have to say the whole title. And it's, you know, it's like all of Zach's work works a controversial title in some ways, a film that has lovers and haters.

It's a big swing. It came off of Man of Steel, which was pretty hugely celebrated. But even that one had, you know, the end controversy about Superman Killing Zod, all the death and destruction at the end of that film. And this one, he kind of doubled down

and went really, really dark, really serious, casting Ben Affleck as Batman, casting Jesse Eisenberg as his Lex Luthor, catching Flack for the Martha, of it all, and we talk about all of it in this conversation. And yes, we talk about a little bit about the Justice League and the Snyder Cut and the ever-present call for more of Zach to do stuff in the DC universe and whether that could ever even possibly happen. And his answer might

indeed surprise you. So always love chatting with Zach. It's a pleasure, a privilege that he's been on the show a bunch. And like I said, if you guys love conflict movies, Zach's movies, this is a real treat. So without any further ado, please, enjoyed this chat, 10th anniversary time, Batman v. Superman, with me and Zach Snyder. Well, it's always a pleasure to have Zach Snyder on Happy, Say I Confused, but especially today, Zach, we are celebrating 10 years have gone by in a flash. We're looking back at Batman v. Superman. Welcome back to the pod and congratulations on 10 years, man. Good to see you. Oh, wow. I know it's crazy, right? 10 years. How did that happen? How did it happen?

Unbelievable. It's exciting. But thanks for having me. This is fun. Of course. I love this kind of thing. This is also, by the way, I was noticing today, I got a few emails noting that I think today or this week is the 40th anniversary of the Dark Night Returns. So this is like, it's all, it's all coming together. It's all perfect. Yeah, no, no, it's a very, yeah, I guess right around March, which is my birthday. You know, we had this tradition of, I think it was literally got set. Maybe it was on, was it on Dawn of the Dead? I don't remember, but for sure.

on 300 and we did these March releases. And before that wasn't a date, people would be like, you can't release a movie in March. There's nothing, no movies do well in March. And then after 300, we were just like, March is our date. Let's go. Totally. So I have a few movies I've released in March. Before we get into this movie in particular, I mean, Dark Night Returns is obviously such an

important marker for you and influences this film in a huge way. Doing the math, when that, when that, when that, comic came out, that graphic novel came out. You must have been about 20, I assume in school. Do you remember when Frank Miller's Dark Night Returns came out and what it did for you? Yeah, I remember well because it was, you know, we were pretty much in the Watchman Dark Knight era had really, like, struck pop culture. And I guess the comic book community, you know, more specifically, of course. But for me, as, you know, on that sort of quest, you know, on that sort of to find the thing that would spark my imagination.

And when you're at that age, you're just like sort of right into college and you're just kind of looking at storytelling at, if you're like a junkie for visuals like I am, you know, something so rare, the air where those things combine. You know, like these striking images with, you know, this story that is mythological and you know I think the funny thing about comic books is that you know people you know they talk about you know Greek mythology certain mythologies and everyone's like oh that's really cool like you know I can kind of relate to it the

thing about comic book mythology it's so personal you know what I mean to someone who likes comic books that I think you know Dark Night Returns for me anyway was like it felt like it was written specifically for me and had You know, with mythology in general, like, you know, whatever, when you're looking at ancient mythology, you really feel like you're just joining a giant river that you're flowing into yourself. And you're like sort of in, you know, you're looking around. It's a pretty wide river, but it's like you're going with the flow. It feels awesome.

It's like very natural. Where I feel like the Dark Night Returns is like someone wrote your myth. And like specifically that, that was amazing. like you know you have this seminal comic book that really profoundly affects you but with no way of expressing it don't i mean there's no at that point in my life there was no batman fighting superman movie that you could possibly in my wildest dreams could be a reality right so right it lay dormant in my i would i had it it was on my coffee table on my desk wherever i was i had it i had it And so, you know, listen, I'll be 100% honest.

I would still make the Dark Night Returns as a film if that opportunity arose. Because to me it's like the, yes, did I steal or borrow or homage, I guess, as much as I could within the context of the mythology that I was creating? Yes. But the thing about Dark Night Returns is it is a closed loop of like awesomeness that owes nothing to anything, except for a masterful deconstruction of gods that we all grew up with. And I think that that, and really you see that in BVS. BVS is for me, you know, damn, damn the, like, what the world would think. I was found and determined to challenge my gods

and find out if they were, could handle it. So let's contextualize a little bit about where BVS came out of. So Man of Steel comes out. It's a huge success. It's 870 million. To put that in context there are folks, that's more than, 873 million rather is what BVS makes,

which is more than the most recent Batman movie. It's more than, with all due respect, the James Guns Superman. I love it, but it made more than that. Like, it was a big success. It's critically a divided film. It remains that to this day, BVS. Of course.

When you think back to the reception, was it what you were expecting? Did it surprise you? Give me a sense of where you were at. Yeah, not to. And also, like, if you, if you, you know, it is whatever, $890 million or whatever it is, unadjusted. Like, if you do any kind of. inflationary adjustment for that movie.

It's like really. Really. A billion probably. Yeah. Really exactly a billion dollar movie. So it is a, in retrospect, I mean, listen, this is also, I think this movie also was the birth, in a lot of ways for the general public, I think more of the director cut concept for, as it, as it pertains to my films in the way I make movies,

because no director's cut for Man to Steel, just wasn't that kind of movie. Very, like we just went straight ahead. Watchman, of course, I think famously, has two director's cuts. Because, you know, a lot of what was dictating the length of those movies was, IMAX.

Because IMAX at the time, the film pallets were a certain size. And if the movie could only be, I think, two hours and 28 minutes or two hours and whatever. Whatever Watchman is, the theatrical release of watching to the very edge of it. They had told me if the movie, if the room was humid, the film would fall off, right? Because the moisture of the, you know, the, film laying against the other piece of film, if it was moist, you know, wouldn't be as tight. And so the film would fall off. So, so that's literally the length. And so I, there was a lot of stuff that, and I wasn't going to sacrifice my eye match release. And so there was a lot of stuff

that I, that I wanted in Watchman because I was such a fanatic for the material. And I think, and so the BDS, the director's cut of BVS, I think, is really the movie. that I was trying to make. You know, I think if you watch that movie, you really, I think, you know, objectively, it's a better movie than the movie that was theatrically released. That's my feeling.

I think it's generally most people's feeling, too. And I don't, I still love the theatrical release and I don't have, I'm not mad at it. I just think that the real intent that Chris Cario and I had was, is in the director's kind of. You see it. We'll be right back with more HappySeg Confused.

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And every Monday you can listen to our true crime rundown where we go over the top true crime headlines of the week. So come and join us wherever you listen to your podcast. So can you give me a sense of the origins of BVS? So you're making Man of Steel. If I have my timeline correct, you famously announced BVS at that amazing Comic-Con event when you bring out Harry Lennox. And that's just about a month after Man of Steel comes out. So obviously you were thinking about what you. we're going to do next in production in post.

Very, very, yes. We were talking about the sequel. We felt we were very happy with what had happened with Man of Steel as far as its success and obviously starting the franchise and how we were going to move forward. And that concept, I think, of introducing this character in this sort of new universe still, you know,

with homage and with respect to what Chris had done with his Dark Night trilogy, I think that was kind of our way forward, you know? And so the landscape was very, we were very excited. And I think what happened was when we, we had the sequence where Superman flies into space and hits that satellite and you see the Wayne Enterprises logo on it. And frankly, you see the LexCorp logo on the truck, the gas truck that he kicks. So we knew from early

days that we would want to build out a universe where all these things could exist in a complete singular mythology that could encapsulate Greenland. lanterns, dark side, the whole thing. You know, right, Wonder Woman. And so, and it was kind of like, we had originally thought, like, how are we going to, maybe at the end of this next movie, we could have a scene where Batman just appears, right? Like he gets, like, as a teaser, he gets a, I don't know, like a FedEx with a piece of, kryptonite in it or something, right?

Like, that's the end. You know, he opens it, and it's like John or some glowing green inside and like, vo-mo, you know, you thought that could be cool. The problem was, once you say out loud, once you say out loud, like,

maybe Batman's in the movie, right? It's a really, it's a difficult thing to put that, um, that toothpaste back in the, in the, right? Let me set aside this beautiful. beautiful, gorgeous character, one more movie. It's too tempting.

It's literally impossible. And so, and with my extreme fondness for the Dark Night Returns, I found myself going like, look, you know, we, you can't, we can't not do it, right? It's, and as a way to introduce or to introduce or to begin the conversation that there are other heroes in the world, other extraordinary heroes. Bruce Wayne is the obvious, the world's greatest detective is the obvious hingepin to us finding these other extraordinary characters, right? And traditionally in the comics, he is that.

He is kind of the leader of the justice. He brings the team together, as he does in your film. and canonically it all makes sense. So you never went down like a real serious road of like a solo Superman movie pretty early on when you and Chris and David Gleur.

We did. We absolutely did. And we were, our plan was, you know, my plan was always to was to hopefully, you know, have this. Once we sort of established this timeline, we could branch off and go do this Brainiac movie

that would have. like a Superman Brainiac like, you know, solo concept. But the Justice League and in the end in my opinion is that in the end the Justice League, full Justice League

saga is a Superman story. Regardless of how much Batman plays into it, in the end it's a Superman Phil. Like in the end after the hell, when it's all done, Superman is the survivor. He is the savior. Without him, there's nothing. You know,

it is a Superman-centric universe. Though, I would say, Batman is the sacrifice that we need to make to have that world. Yeah. And so that was always, that was always the way we thought about it. And so, yeah, and so, you know, to answer your question, there was this, this, this, idea that a Superman film couldn't exist without what we're doing or would exist instead of, I never really thought about it in those terms. You know, I always thought it was like that we were just making a like a 14-hour movie, you know. And you told me before that obviously Chris brought you in, Chris No one brings you in initially. And there is a very, very brief conversation of like, would it even make sense to continue?

with his Batman in this universe, but I guess the deal breaker. I mean, like, I guess if Bail had still been the Batman at the end of Dark Night Rises, maybe you seriously consider it. But the other Batman, that Joseph Gordon-Levitt, is not, that's not as clean a story for you. I believe that's 100% correct. It's that. And though I love that concept, Joseph, I think, is an amazing actor. And it was a cool thing.

But, like, I don't think it was for me. to flesh that out, you know, where, yeah, I think if bail had stayed, if it had ended with Christian Bail standing on a building overlooking Gotham, you know, like, you know, with a silhouetted by the lights of Gotham, you know, that there's a, that's a serious conversation. He's not in Italy, retired, drinking wine and relaxing. If he's a, if he is a current crime fighter, then I think then those universes could mix, could have mixed, you know. And maybe if Chris had really thought that that was a potential thing, he might have looked at it differently, but I don't know that. We never really talked about. So once you decide, okay, it's the Batman Superman conflict

at the heart and you are going to start building towards a Justice League, was it, was it always intent from the beginning like Wonder Woman's going to be in there? We're going to tease cyborg, we're going to tease Aquaman, like, because I guess the broader context is also Marvel, meanwhile, has Avengers. They're succeeding with their team movie. I don't know if there's pressure at that point to accelerate to a team movie or not. Were you feeling that? Or did you, in retrospect, are you happy with the pace you were moving at? Or would you have slow-plated a little more?

It's a good question. I mean, my knee-jerk is that I didn't feel the pressure, but I can't 100% say that's true just because the studio was very excited about. You know, dawn of justice was important, you know, in the title, you know, where for me it was like, I didn't really need it. But that was the negotiation that we had to kind of tease this Justice League idea. And yeah, I think there might have been, although I will say my thing was the trilogy, you know, or the Trinity, sorry, the trilogy. The Trinity, like, is really iconic, you know. And I think that DC, the one thing DC has that, say, Marvel doesn't have or whatever, any other comic book, it has Batman, Superman, and Wonderball, right?

Yeah. It's literally, it has the three logos, right? Like, those logos don't need names. Like, you don't have to tell people who they are. You know, like, you can show those three logos, and it's like McDonald's, you know, Target and freaking Coca-Cola. Like, it's like literally, you know, the three, these, like, they're just massive IP, like, beyond IP. You know, they're like, if you look at that Comic-Con footage, that announcement, the crowd goes insane just based not only in the dialogue, but just those two emblems on top of each other. You don't have to say another word.

It's just. No, you don't have to say another word. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, there's, and I really love that. I loved the idea that. I would have a scene, a shot in the film where those three characters were standing together facing off against something, right? Right.

You know, that's why. And so really, the work is like, what are they fighting? What could they possibly be fighting, you know? Those three are powerful, that's a powerful trio, right? Yeah. So how did that equal? Was that pretty early on the process of you? and Chris Terrio cracking that.

That was always going to be Luther was going to be our antagonist, but Doomsday was going to be his vessel? His child, yeah, his creation, yeah. Sort of. Using all the stuff that we had on hand, you know. We knew that in Kryptonian mythology, there was, Doomsday had cracked the moon there and it kind of like, he was around.

So it didn't feel like a crazy, leap and he really and you know famously had already killed Superman in the comics and so he felt like the right guy he to me it was like a credible threat you know right I feel like the problem with Superman he's not a problem it's amazing is that you have to give him credible threats and the two credible threats are dark side and do him Right. Everyone else is like a problem that he has to work out. Right. Do you believe that there's real jeopardy at the end of the day? At the end of the day, Superman will defeat Lex Luthor. There's no two ways about it. I mean, it's fine. It's cool.

It creates drama. But there's no way you're going to kill Superman. That's impossible. And I was like, no, we're going to kill Superman at the end of this movie. Like that's That's how serious of a threat it is. Now, we also knew that because it was a birth and resurrection story, obviously, I'm not, we're not lowering him off the cross by accident, you know? This is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the Jesus metaphors are not like, oh, they really went vaguely with that. That was like, really, I don't know.

off of that, you know, it's a real reach, you know, to kind of say that's what's happening. I just felt like that was an important, you know, important, you know, mythological touchstone that if you were avoiding that, you were sort of avoiding the why, a little bit of Superman. You were kind of like you were cowtowing to some sort of like, I don't know what, public pressure or like non-commercialization. I don't know what, but you're just, you're, you're pussy now, really. Let's be honest. Instead, you leaned in.

You said, we're going to go. But by the way, it's why I thought it was cool, like, why I thought it was interesting. Because, like, it's that exact iconology that makes it more than a comic book, that makes it mythological. But if you, if you deny the sort of origins and the, and the, what Superman is and what he represents, to culture, then, you know, you're just, it's just might as well be a popcorn, bubblegum bullshit thing. You know, you really have to, it to me, it's like got real teeth. And that's what I was always after.

You know, and I think that was the whole deconstruction problem. You know, I think in retrospect, I think people, they don't like their heroes deconstructed necessarily, you know. they go to the movies to have their heroes. Right. They want reassurance. They want something comfortable. Reassurance that they're there.

Now, I would say that in the end, I am a hero's friend. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to. I want to make sure that your devotion to those heroes has a bedrock of testing that allows you to trust. them in the end and that they are not manufactured by a focus group or some fake bullshit or like the toy makers or you know a lot of whatever you know all the things like it's literally a focus group whatever it is you know like i i personally think that these movies are really personal to me right like zach sniders just as like i put my fucking name on that movie, right?

Like, I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity, right? Like, you wanna like, punch me in the face, like, I deserve it for that, you know? But because my point is, is that, like, I wanted people to understand that this shit to me was like, it's in my DNA. It's elemental to the way I think.

And so, so Batman or Superman, I think, to go back to the thing, this sort of deconstruction concept. You know, I've talked about it before, but, like, I just feel like the thing that Miller does so well in Dark Night Returns is he literally does that, is that he literally is challenging the notion of Batman from the beginning.

Like, what is his deal? Like, why is he in the same way that Watchman does? But, like, you know, like, to me, like, one of the great bits in Watchman is when, when Dan can't get it up and he needs to like go do some some superheroie they need to get in their fetishized costumes

and go save some people so they can fuck like that's like legitimately like that's in the movie that is what happens they need to get aroused by their fetish and and I think that Frank of course was aware of that aspect of

you know the superhero genre genre, but instead of that, like, he took it, like, one step further, like, one step deeper psychologically to really question instead of, and it happens in Washington, but really the why of Bruce Wayne's existence, like, like, his life is not worth living, you know, unless he's, unless he's Batman in the end, you know, like, the reigns of baptism, you know, I'm born again, like, he's not, he's not, you know, he's not, you know, he's not, uh, complete. unless he's like, he thinks he's over it. Like, I don't need the suit.

You know, I don't need that life. But, like, I'd rather be debt, really, in the end is what his reality is. But anyway, so that really informed for me, like, this, this Bruce Wang, this Batman, and this Superman. You know, because, like, I always, obviously, even just what I was saying about how I view Superman, his death and resurrection, is a pretty high. as far as the other death and resurrections that I'm referencing. And so, you know, Batman's always gonna be supporting to that. You know what I mean?

Like it's, it's, it's that, you know? If you're like, if you can fly, if you can, like transcend death, you are a, you know, a mortal guy like Bruce Wayne who's like drinks too much and might be a sex. That guy's always going to be a little bit behind. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, his therapy sessions, I can't compete with this guy.

This guy's flying. He's... Can't compete with him at all. And by the way, I should... I got to stop trying. Exactly, exactly. Sorry about the rant. That was quite a rant there.

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Well, if that's all, I can just dispose of you. Wait, what? All will be revealed in. Sonic the Hedgehog presents the Chaotic's case files. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. When the Chaotics are on the cake. So we've talked about the casting. I know Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, Affleck comes up pretty early on in your mind.

It took a little convincing of Ben. He wanted to kind of know what he was doing and how this Batman was going to be different. You've told me that Matthias Schoenerts was kind of your backup in a way, like if Ben didn't happen. Is that true? Yep.

Did you... So what was the final... How did you get Ben on board in the end? What would you say to him that got him to say yes? You know, I think it had a lot to do with my... I did a drawing. where I took Ben's face and I put a cowl on it, you know, whatever. I know it sounds dumb, but I literally took a Sharpie and just like drew the cowl on top of some photocopy of Ben's face.

And I guess I convinced myself in that moment that that was the way. Because obviously he's Bruce Wayne. Right. Right. He's the most obvious Bruce Wayne, I think, of all the Batman's. If anybody who's played Batman, Ben is the best Bruce Wayne. I mean, of course I'm going to say that, but I'm always going to say that. But, like, he's also all the things I like in a Batman, which are he's legitimately a big dude, right?

He's whatever, 6'5 with his boots on, I don't even know what he is. And so he's got that physicality, you know, that I've always longed for in my cinematic Batman, you know. I've always wanted him to be a brawler. And I just, I really, I just, I needed that. Like, even what I did with the body and with the suit and everything, just, I wanted him thick. And, like, you know, I just wanted him to be able to really hurt you. And I think that that, when I saw. But I'd drawn that on the cowl, the cowl on him.

I was like, yeah, that's kind of Batman. Like, I guess I'm kind of stuck now. And so it did take convincing, but I think once I was locked in on it, and I had those few lunches and conversations with Ben, I feel like he understood that I cared deeply about what iconographically I wanted Batman to be. And I think that just, I think he saw. that and was like, all right, fuck it, let's, let's do it. Like, it's, I know it's like going to be haunting me for the rest of my life, but let's do it. I mean, he's never looked cooler,

more badass. I mean, it's iconic. I mean, I'm fascinated by the Luther cast. You obviously end up with the great Jesse Eisenberg, but like, you kind of ran the gamut. It sounds like, I mean, you've told me you talked to Adam Driver, you talked to Leonardo DiCaprio. Like, they're not necessarily like people you would put on the same page. So were you could, like, Luther can go a lot of different ways, I guess. Like, were you kind of, was it, was it a, I don't know, was it a long list of people that you were looking at for Luther? Was it tough to ride at Jesse?

I mean, I think, at Driver, I think DiCaprio, I think those guys were probably, you know, those conversations were, I could see them forming it, but I think, you know, Jesse was like, to me, he was the most modern. He was the most, I just believed in his smarts.

And it wasn't just like normal smarts. It was like another kind of intelligence that it would take. Just being a smart guy is not going to get, you're not going to beat Superman. It was just like, oh, I outthought him, you know, I did this thing. His kind of smarts felt like he could render a diabolism. follicle smarts that there wasn't he would be willing to sacrifice quite a bit to win you know what I mean like I and I felt like you know just in my conversations with him I always felt like okay I buy it I buy his I buy his abilities you know and I think that it's he's not just saying these words like I I feel him

inventing these ideas as he speaks them and that to me was really the selling point for For me, on Jesse, I just felt like he was transcended. And then, like, you know, of course we don't get to see him in his full shaved head look, you know, until the last moment. And that's, and that, you know, if he had come out of the gate like that, it might have been a different take. You know, people might have had a different take. They kind of didn't want maybe a Lex with their origin story. but I felt like we needed to know you couldn't just plunk a bald genius down

in the middle of the world and be like, oh, of course he's a supervillain. Like, you know, what I... He needed a personal... It needed a personal touch, you know? And arguably, as you know, that's probably one of the two areas that got a little flack at the time. Jesse's, like, performances, it's a big performance.

Like, and in contrast to the rest of the film and it's obviously purposeful in that way. And then, you know, we... I don't know if you... test screen the film at all, but like I'm curious, like we've talked about and you're probably sick of even hearing the word Martha, but like to have that appropriated, like, what is such a key plot point and you're building to that and then to have it become memeified and kind of made fun of must really stick in your craw a little bit because, you know, from your

perspective, it's a meaningful. I mean, 100% my 100% honest reaction to BVS. and how it's received in the world is that, you know, it's really the question about, like, and I've said this quite a bit, like, do you really want a movie that's been, had all the edges shaved off it by the focus groups? Do you really want a movie that has been, like, decisions have been made in the boardroom or tested ideas are being rendered for your enjoyment? Like, do you really want the Kmart version of your story? Is that what you really want? Because, like, I would argue that, like, that's fine,

and it's fine to, like, make fun of Martha. It is true in canon. It is true in canon that Batman and Superman's mother are both named Martha. That is a fact of the comic book world. Whether or not that is a thing that you feel like that, man with the hovering the spear of destiny over Superman's heart, those words, seeing this what he believes a creature, that this thing that he's demonized in his mind is got a mother named Martha. if that, if there's another thing that could touch him, you know, that could be, that could have

been cool. We just felt like this was an obvious way in. And yeah, so again, it just goes, it just goes, I think, and I think PBS really landed at this time when, you know, this genre, like superheroes. And I think I, I cut my teeth on watchmen. You know? And so Watchman was never a meant as a glorification of the genre. You know what I mean? It was never meant, like, there's no Watchman, too, though it's been suggested. You know, I guess my point is that, like, this is like a novel. You know, like, Watchman is a work of literature. It's not meant to be, like, franchise. and turned into something else. And so, like, that's where I was sort of coming from

with this sort of giant story that we were telling with Superman, BVS, Justice League, and beyond. This was a universe that we, a mythological universe that we saw had an ending, you know? And it was like, it was only going to, you know, it was like a flower. It was going to bloom and be glorious and then die. And then we would have been done with it.

You know, I look, I love this. this sort of mythological journey that we went on anyway with these three movies. Like, I mean, the, like, intensity of where we ended up with Justice League and how it evolved and where it came from and where, like, that whole insanity, which is another, we could, we'll talk about that on the, on the, on the, on the 10-year anniversary of Justice League. Because that is a, that might be a two-parter. Exactly. But, you know, I just think that, you know, things like Martha or, you know, whether or not Batman should fight.

So we're like the thing that was funny was like when we were trying for the R rating or the PGR rating, we were trying for the PG-13 for the movie, the MPAA kept kicking the movie back to us, saying like it's still an R, it's still an R, it's still. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, we'm taking everything out. And I remember someone saying, we got a report from the NPA saying, like, we just don't like the idea of Batman fighting Superman. Okay?

So it's kind of a... That's going to be a hard one to go back into the edit room. Yeah, I was like, I don't know what you guys want then. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, he really hits him hard with that, like, sink. That's rude.

You know, like, that feels like an horror. He throws him down on those radiators. Like, that's rude. That's mean. And I'm just like, okay, well, Well, you guys are like, can you please just, okay, let's just pretend it's not Batman versus Superman for one second, do you know, I just think that like you realize then, we should realize then that we were kind of kicking the zeitgeist and the nuts a little bit, you know, that we were going to anger people because they didn't, they didn't, like I said, they don't want, not only do they not want their heroes deconstructed. They don't want their heroes battling each other on a road to deconstructing the why of their existence. You know, that is. is another sacrilege. But in the end, like I say, in the end, it is a, it is meant as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a,

as a, as a, as a, as a, as a, is a, that confirms their worthiness, you know, so. Well, if it, if it wasn't, if you weren't pushing in the ways that you are, we wouldn't be talking with all due respect 10 years later. It would be, it would be like a movie that was like liked and went came and went and has no stickiness to it. The best stuff as you, I'm sure you'll agree is the stuff. is the stuff that often can divide folks and causes conversation and tests our expectations

and you're really good at that. I'm very familiar with that concept. 100%, there is no chance that anyone would give a fuck about Batman v. Superman if we had done the straight down the road, you know, very commercial version, colorful, bright and shiny, movie. It wouldn't be BBS. It would have been B and S.

Right. What do you say to the diehard Snyder-verse fans that will never give up hope on seeing you return to seeing the conclusion, the stuff that you had outlined for Justice League two and three? If you're speaking to them directly, should they keep the hope alive? Is it worth it at this point? I mean, what do you say? all I'll say about that is that, you know, first of all, the fact, again, that we're talking about even just that is testament to, and I think confirms in some way the validity of the mythology that we were working on. Like the kind of that obviously those heroes touch your nerve. Obviously those heroes are meant to, in the end, uplift. and confirm sort of the human existence or the why of, you know, this crazy ride we're all on.

You know, they tend to be a metaphor, you know, like for all of us, I think. And so, you know, not to be too self-important, but like I think that, and by the way, I'm just a shepherd of those characters. Obviously, they've already been taken and are going, you know, other people will take them and other people will take them after that. And that's how it should be.

But I would never say that there's no way. I would never, because I was on the ride that created Justice League, and if you were in my shoes, there were numerous times, dark times when I would say there is no chance

that there will ever be my version of Justice League will never exist. And they can't. Cost, politics, everything stood against it. And yet it exists. And, you know, I think the fans should never forget that they did that, you know. And they also did a lot of, you know, we raised a ton of money for suicide prevention.

And they really did a lot of good. And I think that they catch a lot of flack for being toxic or whatever. But they literally saved human lives. So you can go fuck yourself and that's what you think. Have you entertained seriously kind of turning that out wine for Justice League two and three into a comic or an animated feature if someone gave you the wherewithal to do that. Is that an option in your head? No, no, we've absolutely talked about it quite a bit.

And sure. Yeah. I mean, we live in a world where all that's possible and whatever form it would take, Broadway musical. Be unexpected, but sure. You know, that would be amazing. And the lines of a communication. I mean, James has been very kind. He said you've been very kind.

James is cool. Look, and I've know, like, I, I, I wish them all the best. And I don't have any, like, it is what it is. It kind of, it's a weed, you know, the, the, the, the, that three movie trilogy is a weed that just won't die, you know. And so it, it, it doesn't need to like, it grows on its own. It has its own life. And it doesn't really is not concerned. I don't think.

with James as Superman, which is amazing, and all the best of them. And I can't wait to see the next movie. And it's just awesome. It just really, to me, it's just not the same thing. It's just like a different thing. Is there anything when you saw James's version that only James could do in that way

that you appreciated in his take of Superman? Of course. James is singular in his storytelling, and his ability to kind of channel like sort of mythological pop culture and to like what I would consider, it's just iconic and very particular point of view that's both poignant and funny and all the things, you know, and I think he's like, you know, he's the best at it that I can think of, and I think that he's a great steward of that world.

So, you know, that's good. great for fans. You both are class acts. I'll leave you. I'll leave you with this. If you'll indulge me for a second, just looking ahead, you've shot another film, which I'm very excited about. The last photograph, which I don't know how much you want to say right now, but this has been a project that's been around for a while and is going to be a bit of a change of a pace for you. It's an independently made film. Yeah, it was absolutely a project we've always had. We've been trying to make it for almost 18 years. We've always had it. Tiny movie. We were always trying to slit it between projects. And I, you know, famously, you know, we were getting ready to

this UFC movie. And the UFC was negotiating its rights deal. And so we were like, let's just wait until that's all squared away. And I had this weird window and I was like, let's just go shoot last photograph. And sure enough, I called, you know, fraud, Stuart and said, like, what are you you guys doing? Do you want to go to like Columbia and shoot a movie? And they were like, sure. I go, you might have to carry some cases because we don't have a ton of money. And so I was the DP, the camera operator, the director. Wow. And we just, yeah, we just ran all over Colombia and Iceland and we shot some here and in the Amazon. And yeah, it was so fun. It was just like incredible just to be like, it was just raw and just

it was just real and the guys did an amazing job everybody working out of the movie did an amazing job I'm so proud of what those guys and what we were able to do is well you'll see soon but yeah it was really incredible and what an experience can you say anything about the plan

in terms of like I don't think it has officially a studio or streamer attached to it no one's seen the movie yet no one's seen it's like literally we're just I'm here at that time I'm cutting it right in the other room so it's like it's definitely a mystery project right now, but soon enough. Okay. And then last thing for you, just going forward, is brawlers still on the agenda? Are you thinking about? Yeah, brawlers on the agenda.

There's a few other things that we've been really excited about and talking about. I've kind of given them the front slot to see if they can work it out. But there's a bunch of other things that I think are really exciting that we, you know, that we could, that we could jump to and I'm super excited about all those all those possibilities. But this, the last photograph right now is got my full attention. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, good luck with the rest of the edit. I'm sure we'll talk about that one hopefully before too long. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, thanks, man. You're always the best in chatting about all things. And I love that you

came on to kind of help look back at this really special piece of work, which means a lot to a lot of people, should mean a lot to you. And like I said, it's a testament. We're talking 10 years later. We'll do the same for some of your other films on some anniversaries if you'll indulge me. Absolutely. Congratulations, man. I appreciate you. All right. Well, I really appreciate you, you know, wanted to talk about it because I do love the movie.

And it's really fun to look back at it because it's really, it's honestly still the test of time. Definitely. Definitely. Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen of course every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're

looking for like a really intelligent Dukovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us. and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.