HardLore - Brooke Smith: Silence of the Lambs, Grey’s Anatomy & The Infamous WARZONE WOMEN

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

This is another piece of HardLore history in the making, as we’re joined by our first ever actor, the great Brooke Smith of Silence of the Lambs, Grey’s Anatomy, Bates Motel and more!I am once again joined, very appropriately, by Alec Faber of Holy Blade, Twitching Tongues & God’s Hate (and formerly of the Reel Deal podcast with… me)Long before she graced the silver screen as the iconic Catherine Martin in Silence of the Lambs , you could find her romping around all over the lower east side as one of the infamous WARZONE WOMEN, and a staple of 1980’s New York Hardcore. She spent the golden decade of NYHC taking legendary photos of bands like Agnostic Front, Bad Brains, Cro-Mags, Underdog and more, as documented in her incredible book Sunday Matinee.We get into her life as a legendary publicist’s daughter, befriending and falling out with the Cro-Mags, the informal formation of the Warzone Women, growing out of hardcore just as acting started to become more serious, her life changing by being in one of the greatest movies of all time, AGAIN with Grey’s Anatomy, and everything in between… An incredibly fun conversation with a genuine legend. Thanks to Brooke for joining us._______________HardLore: A Knotfest Series, fueled by Monster Energy.Shot, Mixed & Edited by ⁠Steven Grise⁠Title sequence by ⁠Nicholas Marzluf⁠ • Join the ⁠HARDLORE PATREON⁠ to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episode.• Join the ⁠HARDLORE DISCORD⁠.• Head over to THE MUSIC ZOO for all of your guitar needs! Get 15% off a Dunable custom with code HARDLORE.• Visit GOOD SNOOTS DOG RESCUE to support the fostering and rescuing of dogs all over California._______________00:00:00 - Start00:01:39 - Brooke Smith00:04:09 - Growing Up00:06:39 - Women in Early New York Hardcore00:09:28 - Picking Up Photography00:10:33 - Sunday Matinee00:12:54 - The Cro-Mags00:17:32 - Best Mosher in Early 80s NYHC00:18:40 - "New" Bands That Formed In Real Time & Changed Things00:22:12 - Hardcore in the 80s vs. Now00:23:49 - The Warzone Women, Straight Edge, & Her Infamous Pool Party00:27:33 - Brooke Flips The Script on us smh00:29:00 - People & Details in Sunday Matinee That Stood Out to Her00:31:48 - Phones at Shows Now, The Ramones00:33:49 - Agnostic Front & The Donahue Show00:36:05 - Hare Krishna00:37:57 - Modern Day Equivalent of 1980s CBGBs (Shut Down the Internet)00:41:04 - Close Calls at CBGBs00:42:28 - Playing Bass In A Band with Carl the Mosher00:43:42 - Pardon This Interruption…00:46:22 - The Misfits & Growing out of Hardcore in 199000:50:42 - Acting & Hardcore Intersecting00:53:05 - Getting the Acting Bug00:54:43 - Developing a Project With Elgin James00:56:33 - Silence Of The Lambs01:05:48 - Friendship with Ted Levine01:08:08 - Brooke's Silence of the Lambs Journals, Vanya on 42nd St01:12:37 - The Roles That Could Have Been01:16:38 - Worst Career Advice01:18:55 - Grey’s Anatomy01:29:25 - Jeff Buckley01:33:08 - Motherhood01:42:06 - Every Character Goes To See AF01:45:10 - Top 4 Hardcore Records

My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility.

Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day in theaters July 31st. The original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own path toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th,

only on Hulu on Disney Plus. Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us this week for this very special momentous episode with the great Brooke Smith of Silence of the Lambs, Gray's Anatomy, and behind the camera at CBGBs. I know. I don't understand. I'm sure you're all wondering what the hell, how did this happen? And we talk about it in the first two minutes, but I met her at the same place that Bo and I met Paul Stanley. It all comes back to ice cream, baby. This is such a. fun conversation with somebody who was there for the golden era of New York hardcore. And it's all from a rare non-musical perspective, which feels very like objective towards the time and towards the band and towards the music and towards the people. And I'm of course, once again joined by my good friend Alec Faber as my special guest co-host, who was once my full-time co-host on the Real Deal podcast, my first attempt at podcasting. That's right. This is this is round two. So, enjoy this kind of hard lore real deal special as we get into all things silence the lambs new york

hardcore and brook smith enjoy oh welcome it's hardlore time how you doing beau what a great day here what a great week here i've got a very special guest first let me introduce my co-host returning once again this week one of my best friends mr alec favor hello of holy blade twitching tongues god's hate the other bands and things. And to my right, this is truly a momentous occasion. I thought maybe there was someone over there. No, never, never, anyone else. She has spent her life in front of the camera on film and television and behind the camera at CBGBs. And while you may know her as Catherine Martin in Silence of the Lambs or Dr. Erica Hahn and Grey's Anatomy, she was first known as a New York hardcore original and one of

the infamous War Zones. women. Yay. Please welcome Brooke Smith. Hello. Thanks so much for being here.

Yeah, thanks for having me. This episode is miraculously possible thanks to the greatest ice cream establishment on planet Earth that is McConnell's fine ice creams.

Maybe they would like to sponsor you. Wouldn't that be nice? Not to docks you, but do you go there often? I mean, I was thinking about it on the way of her, and I was thinking,

if you run into me, at 10 o'clock at night at an ice cream shop, there's a pretty good chance I'm stoned. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not going to be there, like, you know, all healthy and the ice cream. Well, what's your order? When I was there that time,

I really wanted the peanut butter and the chocolate. The peanut butter and the chocolate? Yeah. Are you hip to the sea salt cream and cookies? Yes. Oh my God, that shit is great. She gets it. She really gets it.

I used to go there sometimes twice a day. when I worked on the CBS Radford lot around the corner. And you could tell. What did you do? Are we allowed to talk about you? Yeah, that's fine. I was a PA in like reality TV for quite a while. I clocked you from a mile away and I approached you.

And when I did that, were you expecting Silence of the Lambs? I was. Okay. I was. Yeah. I don't know what had just happened prior to that that made me, maybe I had watched Craig on your show. Oh. I think so.

You were already aware? I was already aware. That is. But like, you know, just starting to be aware. And then the ice cream sealed the deal. And so here we are. And here we are. We're not vegan.

No. But let's go back in time here. Let's talk about growing up as a native New Yorker and discovering hardcore in its infancy in the Lower East Side. Okay. How does this happen? Well, I grew up in the suburbs up near Naya. I don't know if you guys know, New York, but it's up the Hudson like half an hour. And, you know, I guess teenagers back then, we were all just told to get out of the house until nighttime.

So I took the bus into the city and then I would take the train downtown. And something just kept making me go east. I'm not sure why. And I met this wacko guy named Fran Powers who worked at Trash in Vodville. and he seemed to be the guy who sold weed to everybody on the scene. So that was a really good way in. So weed was the answer point? It kind of was, I think.

Yeah, because I would go hang out at his place, and he lived in a storefront on Ludlow, and just people would come through there, you know. And so that's how I met a lot of people. And I don't know how I heard about my first show. I wish I could remember. But I know it was the mob. Oh, cool.

And cause for alarm. and I had a huge crush on Chris Cherokee, which I was lucky enough to tell him before, you know, years later, which he couldn't believe, but I was like, you have no idea. We were all obsessed. Yeah, so I don't know. I just started going in and hanging out. I was a freak in the suburbs, and I felt less freakish there.

And your mother at the time was like a legendary Hollywood publicist? She was, yeah. And does she know that you're going down to the very? sketchy Lower East Side every weekend? I mean, she does. She doesn't really know how sketchy, I don't think. They never do. No. No. But she was pretty cool, my mom.

I think she had an idea, you know? Okay. Yeah. So is there a specific show or memory of hardcore clicking with you as like a full community thing rather than just this genre of music that happens to exist? I used to listen to FMU Radio also. That was like the college

radio station. I think maybe that's probably where I heard of the matinees. I think it was that first show. I mean, maybe that wasn't my first show. I don't really remember, but I remember that one being the one that really impacted me. So the mob and calls for alarm really changed your whole. Yeah. And how much of a minority are women in the scene at the time? Oh, God, that's a good question. I knew a lot of women. I still know them. They're still on, we have a text thread. going every day. I asked them what their favorite bands were to prepare. Oh, that's awesome. What is it called? It's skisies, the text thread. Good question. Yeah, skisies, because we were the

schism sisters back in the day. So the schism sisters, that alliteration existed before the war zone women? Yes. Wow. Yeah, as far as I know, there were a lot of women, And there were some really scary women, too. Like really scary, first generation punks. Scary as in intimidating. Moshing hard or? Just intimidating, moshing hard. Exactly.

I just kept thinking, oh, they're going to see me and think I'm like bridge and tunnel or whatever, you know, and call me out. One in particular, Lazar, oh, my God, really scary. She'll get you. Yeah. And she's not here anymore. Oh. So few. But, yeah.

And I met Alexa early on. Alexa, legendary, became my roommate. Yeah, I don't know. I never really felt like it was a boys club, but I don't know. I had three brothers, and they all played ice hockey. But also, do you think you, like, knew every woman around by name? Pretty quickly. Yeah.

Yeah, but it felt very, I don't know. It felt like boys and girls and everybody. Do we have it feels like from hearing stories from people is we think it was probably a lot bigger than it was But it was it smaller than we think probably how big is big? I mean We go to show sometimes there's thousands of people there. Oh yeah, it was you know and it seems like everyone knew everyone Because it was so like an insular culture. Yeah, it's funny you know recently I said something about being fat back then and my husband was like you can't say fat now And I was like, you can't say fat. Literal, like, strangers in the street would scream fat to me across the street back in the day.

Just point and scream fat. Yeah. And in the same way, we all knew we were from the same tribe if we were all, you know, if I saw your shirt or whatever it was, we'd all be like, hey, you know, like we all. Like, we all knew each other like that. So. I mean, there's a lot of good shirts in this book. Yeah, there are. Oh, God, I wish I had some of them.

My God. My kid wears them all. Really? Sometimes when she comes in, like she has the yellow bad brand shirt, it's mine. I don't know how she got it. Does she or you know how valuable that is? Yeah, she knows. But then I thought, well, what do I want to do?

Like put it in the closet? No, it's way about it. It should be worn. It should be worn. It should be worn until it is disintegrated, completely disintegrated. I think so, too. When does photography enter the picture for you? I would say right away because I was, maybe because I was insecure.

I probably just wanted to be, you know, have my own band. but I was too insecure and self-conscious. So if you have a camera, you can get right up there, like be right in the center of the action, but still be hidden, you know? But like, could anybody? Or is it, you did it and it worked, therefore they were happy to have you up there.

It's a really good question. I don't know why I didn't think, like, oh, my God, Amy, because Amy was always there with a camera and BJ. And I don't know why I just decided I was welcome. I guess they made me feel welcome. I don't know. But from the beginning, I was taking pictures, for sure. Were there any key figures that contributed to making you feel welcome right away?

If you knew, yeah, like if you knew certain people, then people would pretty much leave you alone. You know, like knowing John and Harley, if you knew them, then, you know, if people knew they were with you, they weren't going to mess with you, which was nice. And so you're taking a picture that shows to kind of blend in. But like from booking shows, promoting shows, moshing, making flyers and scenes, women occupied kind of every possible role that you could have at the time. Yeah.

Do you feel like you're contributing or giving back by taking pictures? Yeah, I mean, at first it was kind of like my way to get to know people too because I could show them the photos I took of them. But then I realized they needed them for flyers or whatever. So, yeah, I think I gave back. I think I gave back.

I mean, you definitely did this. This book is proof Sunday matinee. You can still get copies from the Punk Rock Museum or eBay. So check that out. Oh, and guess what? There's a third press coming now. Perfect. Yeah, it's a new one.

You can buy it below at the link in the thing. Oh, there's a link in the thing. I'm going to add a link to the thing. But it's a perfect inside look at this golden era of New York hardcore. And this clearly important time in your life. And Richie Birkenhead, ironically, writes the foreword and describes, your photography as saying what he will never be able to adequately say with words, which is very kind.

That is very kind. And very true. And it's such a fascinating way to see. Like, I don't think I've ever seen young Roger that clear. Oh. Which is very cool. It's this amazing preservation of, like, the fashion, the tattoos, moshing. The babies.

A lot of babies. Who are these babies? Who are these babies? Well, Roger's baby, Nadia, is. in there and Alexa's baby Alexa and Tommy from straight ahead. They just played. They did. Would you guys hear? I heard it was

great. You were there? No, you weren't. Yes, I was. It was awesome. It seemed awesome. It seemed like I should have flown my ass back to New York. You really? Yeah. Are you hitting shows ever? Oh, yeah, no, I definitely hit shows still. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. I saw Murphy's Law last time they were here

and went out to Jimmy's little camper. I brought some friends and they still talk about it. It said it was like one of the best nights of their lives. The Murphy's Law camper after the gig. It's really Jimmy's camper. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. At least it was that night. I don't know. So you may see Brooke around. Yeah, you may see me around. What the hell? The books opens with a few shots of the Chrome eggs, like kind of the very first thing you see.

Tell us about your experiences with them, getting to know them, and key memories that come to mind. Okay. Key memories. Oie. Well, they were still friends. Uh-huh. Important note.

There's an amazing picture of them together holding like a trophy. Oh, my God. It's not just a trophy. It's an academy. Oh, just straight out. Yeah. I was house-sitting for Isabella Rossellini, like you do, in Tribeca back then, which was really weird. And they came and visited.

Yeah, I walked her dogs and they came over and, you know, her mom won an Oscar. So it just seemed normal to take a picture. I think, like, aren't they wearing shorts? I think they're both shirtless. I feel like they're, well, they're very casual. They're always shirtless. Right. But they're definitely wearing shorts, I think.

Yeah. Shorts were a thing. Yeah. No one's brought those back, really. I think, well, thank God. I mean, you know. Talk with those legs, though, if you're going to be talking to me, okay? Right.

I don't want to see all that. It was very specific. And then what can I say? I used to see Harley a lot at France, buying weed, so I'd hang out with Harley. And I mean, I don't, do you guys remember the first time you met people? You probably do. Sometimes. I remember meeting him for the first time.

Oh, yeah? Yeah, it was Batman versus Superman had just come out. Was this at United Blood? Yeah. And we were talking about how bad it was. Oh. So we'll never forget. We always have Batman or Superman.

Okay. All right. Well, I don't know how I started driving them to gigs, but I did. And I guess it seemed like a good way to take pictures as well. I drove them for the first time out of the country to Montreal, which was a total trip. And there's so much I don't remember about that trip that I wish I did. Because of the weed?

All the weed? I mean, I guess it's that. I guess it's that. I don't know. But there's people who are like totally straight-edge who don't remember things. Isn't that true? Yeah, we forget some stuff. All right, good.

You get knocked in the head from a stage. You're going to lose a few things that weed would maybe bring back. Yeah. We'll never hear. But, yeah, I remember when we hit the Canadian border and they separated all of us and questioned us. And we had to get to this gig, which I think we were late for because they completely, they took the seats out of my car. Meanwhile, all the weed was in here. I'm sorry.

I know your straight edge, but it was all in my bra. That's okay. And so I was like in the room going like, you know, oh my God, I can smell it. Oh, I'm playing with my mic. That's okay. Sorry. I spent a lot of time with those guys. I don't know what to say with John and Harley.

So how close were they at that time? Very close. Close enough that when I fell out with John, I fell out with Harley. You know, it was like it was a package deal. Right. Do you recall why you fell out with John? I do. He owed me $400.

Which with interest, that's like 100 grand. I mean. A hundred grand? I mean, probably, right? John. John, please pay it. I could really use that money. Come on.

Bart. Bard is calling. I know. Damn. You know, and one other really funny memory just from that time going to Canada was, sorry, Mackie, but you're the one who did it. Mackie, drummer. I remember him taking me aside and kind of being like,

what are you doing with these guys? Wow. Like 100%. Responsible, Mackey. Totally responsible. It was very sweet because something, I had had a tragedy in my life at that point. And I think he knew about it. And he was kind of like, you need to get away from these guys.

These are not good guys. Wow. Sorry, guys. It's been a long time. Sure. Yeah. And it's funny because I had that feeling watching Harley's documentary where I think they talked to Henry Rollins and he was like, you know, yeah, there were a few years there

where none of us really wanted to talk to Harley because he was kind of scary. And I thought, oh, those were the years I was with him. You know? Yeah. Completely. So it made me go... I mean, it seems like it caught up to everybody.

Yeah. Yeah. But they're making some things work now. I guess, yeah. He is. Harley seems to be. Oh, yeah. He's doing great.

Yeah. He got the jab. So I don't know if those... If that told you enough about meeting them early on. No, that was great. Yeah. And listen, those early shows were fucking amazing. Yeah. Yeah, they were amazing.

Were you ever an active mosher aside from taking photos? I wish I could say yes, but I would be lying. Diver? A couple of times, but not like Alexa or Michelle, little Michelle, all the women I knew who. On the subject of moshing. Yes. Who, in your mind, from your professional opinion? Oh, God.

From 1984 to 1990 was the greatest mosher in New York. I bet I'll say the same person that everyone says. John Watson. That was Rick Appo's answer. Oh, really? Yeah, I would say John Watson. Because he was the first one that I sort of went, who the fuck is that guy, you know?

But also Alexa, Jimmy, Harley, Carl. Carl. Carl, the Mosher. I mean, hello, that's the name. Yeah, no, he was pretty amazing. That's too many. I gave too many. But I immediately said John.

More is more. More is more. With information. Of modern people, we would do the same thing where it's like, oh, really? We do this for, when cameras are off, we're like, who? Who's the best? It sucks at Washington.

Yeah. Interesting. In the book, there are so many young faces that would go on to form these kind of legendary bands. Like around this time and right after this time, Porcel's right there. Oh, I know. I know. With so much hair. They have so much hair in this book.

Oh, my God. There's a lot of hair. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, also Roger with hair. A lot of Roger with hair. Roger rocks the fuck out of that hair. He does rock the fuck out of that hair.

He does. And then, you know, but, you know, skinhead. What are you going to do? Yeah. But it looked great with hair. So did stigma. Young stigma in here. I know.

Was he just the best guy ever even though? The best guy ever. Still is. Exactly like what you think. You know. I really do. You know? That's the best guy?

You went to Mont Street. I did. I really did. Are there any new bands that start in this time period that kind of blow your mind in real time and feel like they move the needle of hardcore in a major way to you?

In that time period. I mean, bad brains. So bad brains are like, in real time, you're like, wow, this new act the bad brains has really got something? Yeah, they totally like blew my entire mind wide open. They were, no one ever came close. And to this day, I don't think anyone has ever,

I can't describe. People have tried, right, to describe those shows. And I just never saw anything like that. Yeah. And did you, there are amazing photos of them in this book. Did you develop any kind of personal relationship with them? I did. And I still get messages from HR from time to time.

Always at the weirdest times. What is that like? It's very sweet. I really would like to see him. I haven't seen him. I sent him the book, which blew his mind. He's like, that's just me. I mean, it's got to be weird.

Weird, right? Someone send you a book and, I mean, I sometimes wonder about all the photos that are out there. You know? Anyway, I don't know where we were just now. Bad brains. Bad brains. How good they are. Yeah, they were unbelievable. So that to you is the band that comes to mind of like, hey. Totally. And you know who else? Personality-wise, Jimmy. Because Jimmy was like to me. And here, my mom was like Marilyn Monroe's publicist, you know?

So I grew up around, you know, sort of peripheral to celebrity. But to me, Jimmy was like, he was like the biggest movie star in the world. You know what I mean? Like he just had this personality and I just thought, oh, my God. Yeah. Those early Murphy's Law shows, I mean, they're pretty fun now, too. Yeah. Were you going to shows when Bad Brains came to New York, basically?

They were already there. Okay. So it was like right around then. Maybe right when they just first came, yeah. But is there a band where you're already going to shows for a while and you already know the people involved, and yet your friends are like, hey, we're a new band.

This is our first show. That was actually good? I mean, you know, you said Ray Capo. I think youth of today, I think I saw their first gig. In New York, at least, I remember. They were pretty great. I mean, they were pretty amazing. I thought I would say underdog, because there's some incredible underdog.

But they were already kind of hip, too. They were already like... The 7 inch was 80. 80. But some of the photos where you see everyone that's on stage, getting ready to mosh or dive, and those are some of my favorite photos in the book. Oh, goody. Yeah.

Like Big Charlie, all the personalities, too. Yeah. It's still the same, right? Like, I don't go to that many gigs now, but it's still the same in the sense that, like, it's so big now. But there's no... Oh, well, then there is a separation between the band and the audience. There's not supposed to be.

Yeah, I don't think. But I think the audience has created one. They've kind of deified. And it's supposed to be this thing where it's like, hey, all you have to do is stick around and contribute and we're the same. I think that because Hardcore is so big, that it's harder to be, like, you know, you go into Seabies, you know everyone in there.

Now you go into a show and it's mostly strangers. You might not know anyone in the band. And you stick around long enough and then you do. But there's, there's a show, There is still like the separation between. And I think that the other thing that affects it is with how big it is, people come and go a lot faster. Oh, yeah. Interesting. I remember going to see not long ago.

I mean, I don't know, whatever, 15 years ago, I went to see Agnostic Front at the Roxy. And I remember acting like I was 15 years old and just walking right into the pit like a lunatic, you know, and being like, like, Oh, shit, no, I should not be here. And I remember also going to the door and just feeling like an old lady with a pocketbook, you know, to go backstage and this big dude standing there. And then Vinny was like, Brooke, you know. Anyway, yeah, I just wondered about that. I loved that so much, the no separation between. It's just so big now.

But, I mean, if you mosh hard enough, someone will notice you. I'm going to dep you up at some point. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's going to happen. Oh, interesting. How does the classification of the war zone women start? Oh, my God.

Are we going to have to call people? No, no, no, no. From your perspective. Is the first time you see it on that flyer? On that flyer, yes. I mean, I'd heard it. I guess I didn't realize I was one. And then when I saw my little face, it's not much, but I'm there.

You're there. So I'm like, okay, all right, I'm a war zone woman. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So meeting Warzone, any memories of that, of them as people or as a band? I mean, they were always around, Ray and Todd. I mean, they played at my barbecue at my house. The pool party?

The pool party that Roger got arrested at. Yeah. That day, like, changed the course of the rest of his life. It really did. And I'm so sorry. We wouldn't get live at CB's, though, without. Yeah, that's true. Without that.

Really? All right. It's like the most legendary live record. Well, there you go. So good job. I mean, God, what a bummer that was. Yeah. Do you remember what happened?

I just remember, you know, well, the cops knew me in my damn town. So they, I think they just were like, who were these skinheads in a van, pulled him over, and there was some drugs there, and then that was that. Big whoop. I mean. It's the 80s. Big whoop. straight edge. It is. Oh, well, there you go. You guys are both straight-edge. We're very impressive.

How long have you been straight-edge? 20 years. Wow. Since I was a teenager, yeah. Very impressive. My 14th birthday. I decided I was straight-inch. And why? My brother was straight-edge. And why? And why? Earth crisis? By way of minor threat, by way of, by way of Utah today, by way of my earth threat. Interesting. Okay. But for me, for us, it was Earth crisis. All right. Which is right after your time. Is Earth Crisis on your radar? Not really, no. You never heard Firestorm?

No, should I? We'll do that after this. It'll be fun. Okay. I'm fascinated, by the way, totally, you know, respect, lots of respect to the straight edge. Right back at you. I mean, I'm saying I'm not straight-edge. If I were 17, I might be offended because that's how you are when you're that young.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, they were pretty serious. The ones I knew. I would not get the Whiskey River barbecue burger at Red Robin. Wow. Because Doesn't the alcohol burn off?

Yeah. That's what they say. Or the bourbon It's in the word. Flambay. Yeah. Beer battered onion rings. Don't.

Not me. Take them away from you. Take them away. Now, batter them to health. Exactly. Is there, uh,

so. But are you vegan too? Is that like part of the thing? No. We've, we've, we've experimented. Yeah,

I was vegan for 32 days if you have any questions. 32 days. Oh, I did it for longer than that. Oh. I did it for about five years. Wow. On and off.

On and off. Yeah. You had a new bit every month. No, before we were friends. Not eating onions this month. Not eating onions. I've always eaten onions. How can you live without onions?

Ask this guy. Well, I'm on him now. I'm for him. Okay. I'm now pro-onion. You were against them. I've always loved the essence of onion. Essence of onion.

He said that onion masks the meat of an in and out. No, I said that about cheese. Okay. I get no cheese in and out because I think it reduces everything else I feel. Okay. You know? Yeah. I know I'm wrong. I don't get the in and out thing. I don't get it.

Brooke. I don't get it. I think their French fries are terrible. And I've seen them. You got to get it well done. I've seen the ladies. She's always there and she's doing the thing. So it makes you think they're real. I thought that too. But then I started getting well done. Now I really like them. Here we go. Wait, what was your first hardcore band? That I saw? That like came on your radar in any way. Grimlock. Grimlock.

Yeah, I know. They're a weird. weird metallic band from western Massachusetts. Okay. It was a super, total weird happenstance, somebody leaving a, a cassette in our oldest brother's car. Wow.

And we put it on and it was like, what the hell is this? Like, where it gave us more. I was like five or six, so. Okay. I was fucked. What about you? I had heard hardcore before this,

but it was terror. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So. You familiar with terror? They play a lot of shows that. Just, One word terror?

One word terror. Not sheer. No. Okay. Yeah. No. They got terror somehow. Yeah.

They did. I think they would bring you back. Yeah. They would restore the spirit. You know who I saw recently who's a new band, a newish band that I thought was amazing, was school drugs? Never heard it. Oh my God. You guys.

They're great. School drugs? School drugs. I don't know. I heard it here. They know I love them. Because I'm always saying. This is a hardcore man.

Yeah. They opened for, I don't know. Who did I do? see in New York last time somebody and they opened for them and they were amazing school drugs school drugs this is the worst kind of drugs I know I maybe

it's a I don't think you know listen it's art it's art okay fine in this book yes as I said this amazing time capsule of discontinued music equipment black eyes and numerous

people who are no longer with us are there any particular details or people in these photos that really struck you upon revisiting them to put the book together? I mean, Frenchy, French the skin? Oh, God, I did it again. It's okay. He's all over the book. He was the roadie for agnostic front. Right, yes. And he was amazing. Just the coolest guy ever. Carl, loved Carl. Alexa. There's so many that are gone. Todd. Yeah.

Ray. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. Was it like emotional to revisit and see all these people again? Yeah, it was. It took a while to select them and I could make another book for sure. And it took me years to even get my head around putting it together.

And then COVID happened. And it was like, oh, I guess I should try now. But it's, you know, like trying to figure out what to put where and what not to put. I don't know. It was very tricky. There's a woman named Cass and Jenny Lush and Lazar. She's in there. Get you.

Yeah. She might reach through the photo. I'm telling you. Some people who see this will know what I'm saying. Okay. Although I was reading in Nancy Burrell's book that this great story that she had where I guess the cops were shaking down some people who had a club that was like not yet legit or whatever. And they were, you know, harassing the people in front of the club.

and they didn't know what to do. And they were like, what do we do? What do we do? And Lazar was the one who called 911 and made up something that was happening down the way. Oh, that's incredible. They all left. They caught her on a good day. Yeah. Is there a photo in the book you're most proud of?

I mean, I really like the first one. I really like that cover. I'm not sure what the heck it is. But it's just all these like, to you, these are just guys. But to history, these are pillars of the community. And what about people who know nothing about hardcore? I wonder what it is to them. Just guys.

Right? Cool guys. Cool looking guys. Is this mid-set or is this like mid-s? I think it's mid-set. I think it's underdog. I think this isn't one of the underdogs. I think it's an underdog show, yeah.

What's cool about it is that to people that don't know about hardcore, it's nothing. And that's what's cool about it. Very true. It's just for us. Oh, I see what you're saying. You know? Yeah. It should be, they should know nothing about it.

Amen. Amen. Hey, what about phones at shows now? It's horrific. So does anyone not allow it? Bigger bands try. Well, they'll do some kind of like put it in a bag until the end of the show type thing. But I mean, do they have a giant bag where they put everyone's phones?

No, they're like these individual bags that get locked away. And you like give it to them? Yeah. I went to a comedy show once where they, you put it in a. Louis C.K. No, I don't remember who it was. But we can't get enough of this pervert. It was not him.

It's okay if it was. I think it might have been Kevin Hart, to be honest. Really? But he came to Pasadena. Anyway, you put it in a bag, you give it to them, and it's like coat check. Mm-hmm. Own check. I did coat check at the Ritz.

You did? Yeah. How was that? So the Ramones a lot of times. That's amazing. A lot of times. Were they cool? Yeah.

I mean, I mean, I didn't really know them. Mm-hmm. But I smoked a joint with Joe. with Joey Ramon once online. I won't say where it's mortifying. Good joint. Should I say? I don't really join.

Always say. It was, you guys, it was the first show Duran Duran ever played at the peppermint lounge and there was a party after. And I was waiting online for the bathroom. And Joey Ramon was behind me. He's very, very tall. Very tall. So unbelievably tall.

We talked about tallness before. What's bad about that? I don't know. just the mortification of the Duran Duran of it all. No, we're cool. We're down. Oh, yeah? We're collective guys.

Wow. Okay. The Ramones, they, when certain kind of mid-80s corpsmen talk about them, it's either in complete reverence or complete, like, that was a whole different thing and that had nothing to do with me type thing. Really? Who are these people? I don't want to put them on this.

Oh. Well, by the mid-80s, they were not, they weren't late 70s. Ramones anymore. They were making three-minute long songs. Oh, yeah. That's true. Agnostic Front. Yes. Talk to me about meeting Agnostic Front and any memories that come to mind, other than Roger's life being changed at your pool party. I mean, is there a sweeter guy than Roger? Like, I don't think so. I don't know. Like, the greatest guy from the moment I met him, I remember when they lived in the van with their dog, Amy and Roger. I remember

Freddie Madball, which is hilarious now, you know, I'm just like, what? I was with a friend, I won't say who it was. And she was like, is it bad that I have a crush on Freddy? And I was like, no, it's not bad. He's like a full ass-grown man now. Like, it's okay.

But, I mean, the fact that we knew him, you know, like, it's just like, oh. He's 50. I mean, hello, it's okay. And he looks great. I mean, those were the shows that I remember the most. They're definitely in my top four, just saying. I'm getting a little anxious.

It's about the four. I was a guest. They were mine. Oh, good. It's true. Okay. And Vinny was always around and, you know, I mean, what can I say? I don't know. Does victim and pain come out in real time? Yes. Okay. Am I getting ahead here? No, it was fantastic. Yeah, so great. Agreed. P.S., how about the Donahue show, you guys? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Crazy. So crazy. Kind of groundbreaking. I mean, I guess. Some of us sound really stupid. Yeah. How old are you in that? I think I was 17. Wow. And there was all this drama no one knew about going on behind the scenes,

which was that I had had the falling out with John. Oh. Yes. And there was actually a fight after the Donahue show, right when it ended. You can kind of hear it if you're listening. I was sitting with Alexa and some others, and they were tormenting John and Harley by screaming, Harry-Boh, you know, and Harry Krishna.

like anytime they spoke. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And Harley will tell you, like, they had a fight. Like, because Alexa went up and someone spit on someone. And it was kind of bad and horrible. But it was a fight fully.

And she, like, took a chain off her belt and was, like, going to defend me. It was so sweet. Yeah, she was a badass, Alexa. Now, Krishna pops off. Yes. What are your views on that in the mid-80s? it's taking over your community. They're complicated because I became a vegetarian.

I also lost my brother when I was 18. So that was pretty significant loss. And, you know, those books were right there. So you could be like, I wonder what happens when you die. Right. And you could go eat at this place for free. Oh, my God, it was unbelievable. Really good.

And the sweets are so sweet. Have you? No, I've never taken part in Christian. It's like full-blown sugar fest. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it still is. That is how they got me. Clearly, we met at midnight at an ice cream shot. Oh, true. I mean. It all comes back to shit. Yeah. But so I don't know. I would say I read the baga baguita. I actually do believe in a lot of that stuff sort of still. Well, the whole like, hey, Earth kind of is heaven and you should treat it that way and life is good is, I get it.

Yeah. Yeah. But the deity aspect. Yeah. And I had problems with the. whole like, okay, so my brother ate hot dogs, so he's going to be reincarnated as a cow, but like this asshole over here who's a Krishna and rips everyone off is going to go to heaven or something?

That don't work for me. Yeah, it doesn't work for me either. It doesn't work for us. Exactly. It's the weirdest interview ever, right? It's awesome. Because mostly people talk about music probably, because they're usually musicians. That's why this is so fun.

Oh, okay, good. Because it's the time that, like, these stories, from your perspective, are so unique and invaluable and different than anybody else we've talked. And these are all things that we've been curious about since we were kids probably. I know how music is written. All right. Well, there you go. I don't know what happened between that. Hey, what's going on now that would be the equivalent of hardcore when it was born that we don't know about because it's, like, happening under the radar?

Subculture is like doesn't exist anymore, I don't think. Everything is just culture. At all? It's a monoculture now. It's hyperculture or it's like. Everything is everything. Nothing is underground anymore because it can't be because it's on the internet. Shouldn't we maybe stop with everything?

A thousand percent. Like I really think we should just shut the internet down. Maybe a moratorium. Like no more movies or TV for like a year at least until we get some new ideas. You would have thought that that would be something great to come out of the pandemic? and then everything was so much worse. Everybody's insane. Yeah.

And like actual, I think if you think about what is subculture, like subversive culture, it was actually like cue in on people. That was like an underground thing that no one took seriously that had like these radical people in it. And then that became like borderline mainstream.

So that's not anything anymore. But like in terms of like art, nothing. Oh, you know what I mean? Oh, my God, you guys, Gavin McGuinness. Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay, when these photos first happened, I did a show in New York, I mean, I guess it's a long time ago. I don't really know.

He wrote the intro to the show. Jesus Christ. Yeah. And he lived long enough to become the villain. And now, isn't he like, what's his gone? I think he started the proud boys, right? I guess he did. But he also started Vice Magazine, did he?

So that's like, it was between Vice Magazine and the Proud Boys. But I wonder about that sometimes. I think it's, you know, we just saw the movie Obsession the other night. Yeah. It's like those guys are probably, I mean, it's not the same thing, but it's like independent people making these things for nothing that become successful. I feel like that's the closest thing you'll get to anything art-wise. There really can be no, this can never happen again. Yeah.

You know? Wow. So depressing. because it still is there are shows that we don't know about happening down the street right now. Those are the ones I wonder about. Because I've seen weird pictures of like

train tracks on the east LA and I'm like how do we get there? Like what? You don't know. Well, you know that's Dead City. Dead City punks. Yeah. They're playing under a bridge and then right now. There's helicopters over the that's it it's they're still out there. But in terms of like something like

New York in 85 I don't think that's ever gonna happen again where you like it because it's sketchy and cool and dangerous when something comes out today that is sketchy

and cool and dangerous it's put under a microscope and destroyed within a month or it's just made instantly so cool that everyone latches onto it and it's not cool

and it's not cool wow you did it right you really did it right I mean where are we here taking photos on a jam-packed TVGB stage

in this very violent time were there any like close calls or incidents that come to mind? There are definitely incidents. I definitely got hurt sometimes and I was there

when bags bit that guy's finger off. I don't know if you heard about that. Yeah. Yeah, I was there when that happened. How off in reality? Like completely off. Just gone. Yeah, like something about a gutter. Like, did it go in the gutter?

I don't know. Did they like, I don't know. I don't think. Someone, I don't know. Jeez. I would imagine he had it coming in some way, right? I'm not sure. Because a finger is a very specific thing you bite. It seems like it.

It's got to be somewhere it's not supposed to be. I'm trying to think of what else. And then there was that guy who Alexa called Dan Dan the head stew man. There was a guy named Dan Rakewitz. All right, you guys are going to have to Google this. He killed his girlfriend and put her in a stew. And served it at Tompkins. And served it at the punk picnic.

in Tompkins Square Park. Did you eat the soup? No, I didn't eat the soup. I'm not going to eat soup from some weird guy. Soup of some weird guy. I mean, just like some weird guy in the park offers you soup? Are you going to be like, yay. But it was a different time, so that sounds like what was happening.

I mean, you could have been hungry. I know, the Christmas are on the other side, given you get the soup, get the dessert. Yeah. And then you're saying. Yeah. You briefly played bass in a band with Carl the Mosher from the Xman. God, how did you find out that?

What was the vibe? I have the tape. I just found it. No way. Yes, it's so not good. Can I put it out? Can I put it out? No.

No, no. How did you find that out? This is what I do. Wow. It's like in here. It's in here somewhere. It's in the wood. Carl the Mosher base.

Yeah, I did. I did do that. You won't let me hear? I mean, it's pretty awful. You can imagine. Yeah, but the Ice Man is like the opposite of awful. Yeah, but how can that be? I wasn't in the Iceman.

Oh. Yeah. Bass was easier because there's so many strings on a guitar. Yeah. It's true. And you're just like, how? I can't. I still wonder that.

Yeah, I can't. I can't do it. What about bass? You still? I can play bass. There you go. I played it recently. There's one in my house for some reason.

What was the van called? I can't explain it. Paul? Paul. Paul. P-A-U-L? P-A-U-L, Paul. It's because we couldn't think of a name.

Just Paul. Yeah. Okay. It's ad-n-up that this thing. This might get cut out. No, it'll never get cut out. The Paul demo is coming soon on horrible records. Holy moly.

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There's a couple great photos in this book of Arthur Googie from the Mistakes. Oh my God. The best drummer that the original lineup ever had. Oh, you know, I agree with that. Was he cool and were you a misfits chick? He was cool. I wasn't really a misfits chick. Were they too wacky? I don't know. They just felt, yeah, maybe. Like a little almost like kiss or something.

Yeah, to me. That seems to be kind of a common consensus, I hear. Really? Yeah. From people that were there. Okay. And then people that were there a little earlier are like, no, that was the shit. And then people there are a little later are like, no, that was the shit.

But the mid-80s, I think aside from Roger, who really does ride for the misfits, which is awesome. Yeah. They were a little too wacky for me. Yeah, they're a little too wacky for me. But like walk among this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not really my thing. Not really my thing.

You mentioned kind of transitioning out of hardcore by 1990. Yeah, I guess it's by 90. How does that, is that a natural thing or is it a, uh, such? it's weird I've been remembering recently so there was like a pizza place on the corner of Avenue A and St. Marks that we all used to hang out at and in fact I had the payphone number of the pay phone that was on that corner memorized and certain time a day you could literally go like if I need to find Frenchie I guess I'll call that number and chances are he'll answer yeah wow just bizarre um and I remember

I remember sitting in that pizza place and meeting some new sort of runaway kids that had showed up and them being all excited. And the tragedy that had happened to me was my brother died when I was 18. And I just remember having this moment, like, looking at these new kids and thinking, oh, yeah, I think I'm done. Oh, really? Like, it's so weird. But I just remember thinking, like, what am I doing here? And, like, it just felt done. Like a changing of the guards.

Yeah, like, I got to get on with my life kind of thing. And this is 1990? Yeah, I think it's right around then. So you had already been acting with it. Because when is into another? That's like 9091. Okay, because I'm still hanging out with Ritchie then. Because I remember.

Because 1990 is when Youth of Today becomes Quicksand, Shelter, and to another. You know? Oh, yeah. So it's like hardcore is not hardcore. Hardcore as we knew it is. Except for... Right. Yeah.

Youth today is, I mean... But you got killing time. Burn, killing time. But killing time breaks up. Yeah. Were you at the Killing Time last show? No. No, but I think I saw them.

I feel like I saw them. Did you like them? I did like them. Did you see breakdown? Probably. Okay. Do you like breakdown? I don't really remember.

The breakdown demo, 87 demo. I mean, not... Okay. That was... It's clearly not like in my top or whatever. Yeah. Fascinating. Sorry.

All right. So, but 1990, you're out. What about Crout? Do people talk about Crowd a lot? The people that were there, do. Okay. Because it was like, Crout was the first band with an album. Okay.

It's not like I'm versed, but I was there. But anyway, yeah. Yeah, they talk about Crowe. And DRI. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But then they were just like the crossover band, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were you a crossover head? Uh-uh, no. And also because, you know what? All those metalheads were in my high school and they were assholes. So why are they showing up at CB's? Totally. And that Ignatio Front cause for alarm comes out. Yeah.

Wow. So good. That's the only one that I like. Which is crazy. Only crossover. Because I'm not a metal guy. Yeah, I don't grow up on metal. No, me either.

But for some reason, Ignatistic Front Cause for alarm is like the cross-off. I mean. Carnivore and Pete Steele. Any run-ins? You never had any interaction? It's not really for me. No. I mean, maybe I did.

I don't know. I think you would know. Really? I think I would. Like a G.G. Allen situation? He's gigantic. Oh, yeah. I think I probably would remember that. No. That's a no. Hard no. Hard no on carnivore.

Wow. I feel like I did, though. Anyway. Maybe this is the weed coming back. I don't know. But if 1990 is when you're out, that means in 1988 when you have your first acting credit,

there's a little bit of crossover. Oh, yeah, there definitely is. because also wasn't 88 was that like when I got my sag card, I think. It was like it was in Montreal. And I remember I hung out with a skinhead I knew in Montreal when I was shooting. So there had to be a little bit of a crossover. And do your peers in the hardcore community, are they aware of what you're doing acting wise? Yes.

And, you know, Roger says I sent him the book in jail. But I feel like I did the math on this and it didn't line. up, but he swears that I, and I know, God, where are those letters? Invaluble. They would be so invaluable, because I'd remember all kinds of shit. Roger got the book, Silence of the Lambs, read it, and then, you know, I think he was, like, psyched to see it. But how's it possible that he was in there that whole time from when the book came out to when the movie came out? I don't think it's possible.

But anyway. We're about to get there. He knew. Uh-oh. He knew about it. And also, Richie. And then, you know, Alexa, the people who are still, you know. But I'm just, I guess I'm not going to shows as much.

Okay. Yeah. But your peers are still supportive. And also, when it got all weird in metal at CB's, I kind of stopped going. It was like metal and then it was alternative rock kind of. What was the alternative rock? I mean, into another is like, became more alternative. Yeah, uniform choice.

Yeah. Quick sand. Oh, yeah. Shelter. Yeah. I think that we have a weird idea of what a lifer is in hardcore because in the 80s, you don't really know what goes beyond. You probably didn't have an idea that this was going to last forever. You know what I mean?

So it only made sense that you got older, moved on to the next thing, the next chapter of your life. So, like, I think when we think of people our age, you, like, disappear. It's kind of a negative thing in our head something. times where like you disappear you come back when it's convenient for you blah blah blah but back then it was just like no this was just a period well i got a job so i can't come anymore yeah yeah you know so hmm makes sense okay yeah first acting role and time on a movie set it was the moderns it was um in montreal it was set in the 20s it was like i was the stupid American girl who thought like, you know, Hemingway was Fitzgerald and, you know, like that.

Do you get the itch to? Oh, I had it before then. Yeah, I had it when I was like seven. Really? I was in free to be you and me, you guys. Do you know what that is? No. No, because you're young. But people out here will know. Yeah. As Marlowe Thomas, come on, you know. Right. No, you don't know. You're like, right. I don't know. You're like, I don't know who fucking Marlo Thomas is. That girl? That girl. I heard that girl. Okay, we got that girl. So it was like this like record, like TV show. Like there was a football.

Oh, God, am I really going to talk about it? Yeah, yeah. Okay, it's called Free to Be You and Me. And like Mel Brooks was in it. And Rosie Greer was a football player saying a song called It's All Right to Cry. Nobody's getting this. Oh, they're loving it. All right.

They're out there cheering, screaming. Anyway, I was in that. Okay. And I ate a hot dog that Harry Belafonte sold me. I think I was like five years old, maybe. I don't know. So from then, I definitely, and also my mom was always off with actors, so I'm sure, you know. Some influence there. Is that how it happened? Therapists would say something about that. So yeah, so then that's how I got my sag card. That was the first one.

And have you met other people along the way in the industry whose creative and cultural beginnings started with hardcore music? Well, there's Paris. Of course. People I met though. Oh, well, you know, I've been developing a series, a coming-of-age series set in the New York hardcore scene in the mid-80s. Finally. And my showrunner is Elgin James. And I didn't know Elgin back then. So I've met him since then. Perfect combo.

That's a perfect, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Do you know him? Yeah. Okay, good. Not personally, but his bands and his work. Yeah.

You ever fuck with righteous jams? No. You should. You should. I should fuck with it. Yeah, you should fuck with it. If you shut up to set one day, you're like, yo, I just listen to Righteous Jams.

Really? I feel like I need to write that down. Righteous jams. Okay, you'll tell me later. Because you're straight-inch. You'll remember. I will remember. They're straight-hitch.

But they're, you know, they're really all over the place now. Managers, agents, producers, show runners. I'm trying to think of who else. Who else have I run into in the scene? I've heard things. You know, you hear things. Like I heard that that that girl with the boobs and the, and the red hair on Mad Men.

Christina Hendricks. I heard she was like a punk rock. Really? I heard that. But maybe it's... Well, you know better than me. I don't know. That's awesome.

I feel like it's true. I feel like it's... You like Mad Men? I didn't watch the whole thing. Oh my God, it's so good. It was good, right? It was good. What's your favorite show?

So many shows. Probably Seinfeld. Oh. Yeah. Wow. What about you? Oh, no. I don't know.

What about you? The favorite show. Yeah. I mean, probably. So interesting. I've never thought about it. There's so many shows. Yeah.

Yeah, too many. And we love shows. We do love shows. We do be loving some shows. Yeah. The Wire. Oh, the Wire's great. Right show.

Wire's great. That's like a pretentious answer. Here we go. Okay. Okay. We will. Here we go. In 1991, you are cast in your third or fourth acting credit ever as Catherine Martin in one of the greatest

movies ever made. I mean, honestly. Silence of the Lamb. Yeah. How does this happen? Tell me about the process of joining this cast and making this movie. Oh my God, it's so weird, you guys.

If you live long enough, every weird thing happens. Yeah. Okay, so my mom was a publicist. Jonathan Demi was a publicist prior to being a film director, which is something no one ever talks about, but is true. So he had heard about me, and I guess because I was fat girl, a fat girl. And you know, is that part of the casting process considering? Well, no, because then, I was skinny by then. Oh. I thought it was vegetarianism, but I also did speed every single day

for like a year. How was that? It helps with weight loss. I mean, it has to be good to keep doing it. Well, you know, are we going to talk about drugs? Sure. Okay. So like cocaine, you always want more. And that doesn't feel like a very sharing kind of communal situation. Yeah. But speed, you just did a little. And then you were like, good all day. You didn't have to eat. You didn't have to stop.

And then you're going sounds like. And then they said you have to gain 25 pounds. Size 14. Yeah, after losing all the fucking weight. Yeah. So that was fun. She had to go to Niro on everybody. I had to go.

Yes. But he was like De Niro. And like, I feel like people helped him. You know? All you had to do is go to the Christian temple. No, but you know, it's really weird. Vincent DiNafrio. Do you know who he is?

Okay, so he was in my acting class, and he had done full metal jacket. And he had gained 80 pounds for that. Because he wasn't big, naturally. No, he was so hot. We were all like, oh, my God, he was so, all the girls in class were. He's still out there. Yeah, he's pretty great. So he was the one who said,

ask the movie studio to give you a credit card. They should be paying for your food. Wow. I never even thought of such things. Genius. I know. And I was supposed to be naked. Oh.

So naked gained 25 pounds. It's like, this is going to be great for my single life that I am having right now. Anyway, but how great? Greatest movie ever. I mean, it's really. It's so good. I'm so lucky to have done that. How many days did you shoot?

It was so much more than you think. Really? Yeah. It was weeks. Really? Yeah. It was like three weeks. And there was also, see, there are journals.

I recommend keeping one if you're young. Because then when you go back, you can like remember these things. You have this? Yes, I do. Wow. Because I remember, I don't remember coming back for reshoots, but we did reshoots. So there you go. The other weird thing was Jonathan said, what song would you be listening to driving down the road? Wow.

And I said, bad brains. Oh. I really wanted it to be bad brains There are plenty of songs that could have That aren't aggressive Yeah You could put a lot Yeah

But they said no No and I get it now But back then I was like come on American girls pretty good It was supposed to also be Tell me something good Neer-neer That would have been a good

But American girls It made sense poetically Yeah Yeah And sometimes I'll be like in I'd boycott Target now, but I'll be in a store like Target, and I will hear American Girl. That's me.

And it's so weird. It's such a weird thing to, like, be me in Target hearing American Girl. I don't know. And then somebody else clocks you in Target. No, they don't. They don't. And then I just have this secret weird moment of like, oh, my God, yeah. So is it how, I mean, how often is somebody stopping you on the street and being like,

so, salo. I mean, a couple times a week. Okay. A week? That's amazing. Recently, I was at the dog park. It was my birthday, and I go every day to the dog park, no big deal. Go there every day.

And as I'm leaving, some of my dog walking friends were like, I think there's a paparazzi over there shooting pictures of you. And I was like, dude, it is so not happening. What are you talking about? Totally 100%. Wow. I was in the Daily Mail. And I look crazy.

And I'm wearing my girls in the pit shirt, which I was proud of. Yeah, I don't know. It's a weird thing, but that was a really great movie to do. I mean, 35 years and the legacy is still kicking. And it's a great movie. It's one of the best. Yeah, it kind of is. Did you feel...

See, I keep wanting to drink this. You can drink it. It's water. Am I allowed to? Yes, it's for you. Wow. Crack it open. Yeah, it's good.

Here we go. All right. Here we go. He's like, I'm going to get this back on track. I swear. to God. Did you feel at home in Buffalo Bill's dungeon well due to your familiarity

with the CBGB's bathroom? It was less colorful. A lot less colorful. CBGB's was? No. No, that was colorful. Was it real well? I was like the toilet? No, they built it in

an old factory. But it was deep, deep, deep. And I had to go in from the bottom. There was like a ladder and you'd open like a trap door and get up in there and then put like dirt around or whatever. But they could take the walls out to shoot that way. I did an event at the house. You know, they have that Buffalo Bell house where, you know, it's the house.

And this woman showed up and she had pieces of the wall of the well because her boyfriend was a construction worker. And when they turned that factory into apartment buildings, I guess they just left. That's crazy. Yeah. They left the well there? I don't know. Isn't that weird?

Yeah. Freak me out. Like, it was so clearly, obviously, the real thing. I told column this before I got here, or when I got here, that was maybe one of the first movies I saw in theater. Yeah. Because my parents were bad people and brought me as an infant toddler. Infant.

So they weren't bad people. But they, my parents were really young. so they were trying to still have a life, you know, a little bit probably. What they would do is they would bring me with a pillow and a blanket, and they would go to the latest showing they could. Okay. That's smart. I would, like, fall asleep right away.

Yeah, so you weren't traumatized. Or so that I wasn't bothering other people. Were you with me at the 4K old boy screening? Yes. With the two babies? Yes. One of the craziest thing. Old boy.

Two. Not sleeping babies? Harmonized. Crime. That's weird. It's insane. insane stuff. We're in a sick world now.

But my parents were, that was a thing that they told me that I saw Silence of Lames in the theater. Would you, Brooke Smith, ever stopped to help a man load a couch into a van alone again? No, I don't think it was. Crazy move. I know. It's so stupid. The message is that empathy is ridiculous. Well, clearly, we've gone that way. Oh. Haven't we?

I don't know. Because of the buffalo bills of the world. Goodbye horses. Yeah. This iconic song, and it's like true introduction to the world, starts with your face. It does? And that's pretty cool. Is it literally on my face? It's on your face before it goes up. And you can hear it and he's up there doing whatever.

And how cool is that? That's pretty cool. That's music history. Is that song stand on its own? Now it does. I think so. Because of the movie. But so then it doesn't stand on its own.

No, no, no. But now I don't think people realize the connection that it started with the movie. Oh, interesting. Because it's so its own thing. Okay. And was it Jonathan who, like, found that song? I think he did. I feel like he did.

That she was a bus driver or something? Something. You mentioned before that the dog trainer for Princess was scarier to you than Ted as Buffalo Bill? Kind of, yeah. Because I'd be looking up, and I would see, like, Ted Levine, the actor, playing the scary guy. And then I'd see, like, oh, when I had the dog. It was when I had the dog. And then I'd see the trainer.

And the trainer would be like, don't fucking, don't you hurt my dog, literally. You know, like, she would be looking at me like, and I was like, oh. But the dog had to act up. Because how horrible. You can't tell me that dog knew what was happening, you guys. But apparently she was like a legendary movie dog. She was. She worked way more than I did.

She was in like Peewee's Big Adventure. What is she in Peewee's Big Adventure? She's in it. I know she's in it. And she was in something called The Burbs. Oh, yeah. Tom Hanks? I think so.

Wow. What a good dog. Yeah, she was a good dog. But, I mean, horrifying, because how do you squeeze a dog and be emotional and I don't know. God. And be conscious about how hard you're squeezing it. It's tough. You're really good.

You did so good. Your friendship with Ted, aka Buffalo Bill on set, I heard you guys were very close. I like the way he's like, I heard this. I heard this. I've been reading. All right. I've been hearing. It's true.

we were um but i think even though you know jody called me patty hurst because i was always hanging out with them um she did the same thing with the guys who raped her and the accused uh-huh because i think there's some weird thing psychological where you're like ugh like i have to be your friends yeah it's kind of like intimate yeah yeah so yeah i don't know he was amazing such a great actor. So, I mean, how about that fucking performance? Underrated somehow. So underrated? Like, why didn't he get an award? I know. He's overshadow.

He's like the only person that didn't. Unfortunate. And you? You too, of course. But you're, I mean, you're kind of like, you are the emotional heartbeat of this movie because you are the direct resolution and cause for all the drama. I know. Pretty cool. That's pretty cool. And it's probably on TNT right now.

It probably is. Which, thank God, right? Because fucking residuals are gone. And there's no residuals anymore. But now for, I still get them for Silence the Lambs. Right? That's what I felt like to hear. Now, are you still in touch with New York hardcore as Silence of the Lambs is coming out?

And are people reaching out and being like, yo, that's Catherine for Seabings? That was hilarious. Yes, a little bit. I wonder about these in-between years. Do people like me from back then, did they have like a moment of like, going away. Yeah. And then they came back.

I think it all, everybody was out in 1990, except for like judge and all the end of it. Hardcore had like, it's like a weird transition time between like 90 and 94 probably. But in reality, it's probably like a year. Yeah, you know.

Because when did CB's close in? You tell me. I don't know. I mean, they closed. End of the 90s or like 2000. 2000s? 2000s.

So long. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, they're supportive. You're a hardcore supportive of science. And like Alexa, I was always in touch with. Olivia, there's a girl named Olivia.

She's in the book. Still, she's been one of my besties my whole life. Yeah, I heard from them. Good. Good. You like that. You mentioned writing journals throughout this process, which is so cool because an experience like this that's so

such a monumental part of your life, you might get tunnel vision and be like, I'm doing this real thing, this very big thing. I'm nervous. I'm scared, but you have it all written down somewhere to reflect on. Have you thought about publishing those? Oh, wow. Radio Rahim, I'm sure, would be all over here.

Oh, my God, you're so funny. Yeah, sometimes I think about something. I don't know. I mean, this show, the series that we're developing is, it's pretty much a coming of age of a girl from the suburbs who, you know, throws herself into the hardcore punk gene. And then gets cast in the 65th best movie? No, we don't go that far.

Are you using real? bands or are you making up bands for the show? In the script right now, there's some real band names. So I'm wondering what to do about that. And Alexa unfortunately died a year ago. And she said, when I showed her what I was writing, she's like, why is my name Tara? And I was like, well, I feel like I'm supposed to change them, right? Like, no, I'm Alexa. Call me Alexa. I was like, okay. So I changed that back. But I do have to figure out the bands, don't I? Like, what do I do about that? I mean, you could make some up and we can just write it all. Yeah?

Oh, yeah. All right. I'll write you 10 albums. Fantastic. Done. All right. Love it. Love it.

All right. Okay. You're working a ton after Silence of the Lambs. Okay. I'm wondering, where does Vanya on 42nd Street rank in your personal lexicon? It's one of my favorites. It's so cool. Oh, yay.

I did it again. No, it's okay. It's such a unique thing. It's like my favorite probably thing, acting-wise, that I ever did. Yeah. Because also, how hardcore is that? It's so cool. Like, it was like a band. I know.

It was like we jammed. For five years, we rehearsed Uncle Vanya by Chekhov. And it's with Andre Gregory and Wally Sean, you know, my dinner with Andre, which everybody should see. And Julian Moore's kind of. And Julian Moore's just starting outish. Yeah, she's the pretty one. I'm the spiritually pretty one. Yeah, it's fantastic.

Yeah. It totally spoiled me. I mean, you're in the criterion. I certainly am. And my photos are in there, too. How cool is that? And sometimes I think of doing that, because I had a camera with me the whole way. Like, behind the scenes at Silence of the Lambs.

That would be awesome. Everything I've done since then. I've taken pictures. And Jeff Bridges did that. Radio Rahim. I'm telling you. It's ready. See?

Or I will do it if Radio Rahan is on a video. That's awesome. Yeah. I would love to see it. It's good to keep journals, though. But anyway, yes, Vanya is one of my favorites. There are three. So good.

Silence the Lambs, Vanya, and Series 7 The Contenders. Wow. You have not seen that. Oh, my God. I'll do it tonight. You kind of have to. Okay. It's on YouTube.

I never get residuals so you can just watch it on YouTube. Series 7, the Contenders. For free, yes. Top three. Oh, yeah. I can't wait. I'll tell you this. Hunger Games ripped us off so much so that I refuse to see the movie.

What year is this? Oh, I'm so bad with that. 90s? Yes, late 90s. So pre-battle Royal, too. Oh, yeah, we were way ahead of everybody. Yeah, can't we? Contender.

You'll have to call me after you see it. I will. It's great. Series 7, The Contenders, YouTube, free, fantastic. And there's a little Joy Division situation that happens right in it. Maybe that's why it's not streaming anywhere or available to purchase. No, you can, like, you can. Right, right, but the joy division of it all is why, like, maybe that's holding it back

in terms of a digital purchase availability? No. They got the rights to that one? Yeah, because, like, we went to Sundance. We were a huge big deal. There was a bidding war. USA films got it. And then they didn't know how to sell it

because it's a satire about reality television, which is why you're going to love it. I love it. It's like back when cop stays. Oh. So basically, they give you a cameraman and they give you a gun. And you have to kill all other five people before they kill you.

have to play. You can't not play. Someone will just kill you. Yes, very much. They were ahead of us. Sure, they were ahead of us. Running Man, Series 7th contender of Battle Royale Hunger Games. Yeah. Well, that's the chronology. Yeah. I love it. Is there a role you read for that you didn't get that haunch you?

Oh my God, yes. That's so funny. I kind of thought about that this morning. Well, one is one that nobody probably ever saw called Dog Fight. See? So who cares? So who cares? So it shouldn't haunch you. That's what I'm saying. Sounds like it hurt though.

It did. Why the fuck is she doing it? And then sometimes like for a long time my husband used to say you're not, this sounds horrible you guys. You're not thin enough to be the fat girl in Hollywood. Think about that for a second. Not thin enough to be the fat girl. Because like I was in that movie, oh I'm such a bad person for saying these things. No.

Isn't he Russian or something? He is. So. So what? I mean, he's probably more direct than the average American. Maybe, maybe. No, it was just like, there's a movie called In Her Shoes with Cameron Diaz and Tony Collette.

And Tony, that was one of my best auditions I ever did. And it was for the Tony Collette part. Okay. The ugly fat sister. Yeah, that's crazy. And then I got there and I was like, okay, am I the ugly fat sister's uglier fatter friend? Like, what's happening?

Well, there's no shame. I didn't lose to Tony Colette. No, no, no, there isn't. She fucking rocks. And it was mortifying because we did this scene

where we're like, she's like crying over some guy and we're in bed and we're like friends and we're eating candy because that's what girls do apparently. Totally.

And I did it not once, not twice, three times. You guys, it's not okay. I called her by my character's name. It wasn't conscious. For that third time. She was like,

what the fuck, dude? You're not pulling. playing her, I'm playing her, you're playing this one. And I was like, ooh, okay, sorry, sorry. So that'll haunt you. Yeah, that one haunted me a little. And then there's ones that I said no to. Oh.

That was my next question. Oh, fuck. Talk to me. Well, it's not like they were straight up offers. Mm-hmm. Oh, you're not gonna like it. I just remember being like, who cares about some 20-somethings in an apartment in New York?

Oh my God. Friends. He blew it. I mean. Who? Rachel? Is that her name? See, I didn't even watch it.

It's the blonde. No. Phoebe. Phoebe. Yeah. You know to smoke that. No, she was pretty great. She was iconic.

Yeah. And it's not like they offered it to me, but they were interested, for sure. And I remember being like, so if the bus goes under 30 miles an hour, it's going to blow. That's like a thing, right? Isn't that the plot of speed? Yeah. Yeah. I just thought, this is so stupid.

Why would anyone care? just like with Titanic. Nobody offered me Titanic. When they were doing it, I remember thinking like, we know how it ends. Like, who cares? Yeah. And then it was, unfortunately,

the biggest one in the biggest thing. To this day, it's like... Yeah, it's pretty huge. I think so. With inflation, I think it's up there. Yeah. Any nightmare audition stories aside from calling Tony Colette the wrong name for your time?

Well, there's one, but it's so highbrow, nobody'll care. It was... I auditioned to, for like, the scariest woman in musical theater in Broadway, Liz Swados, Richie would know. And I had to sing a song,

Acapella, to play Squeaky Fromm. Oh, okay. The Mansons, they were doing like a musical. I mean, that would have been great. That would have been great. And I can't believe I sang, should I tell you what I sang? Just mortifying you guys.

And she was looking at me like, you suck. As I sang Acapella, the Eagles. Okay. Desperado. Oh, man. Interesting. It all comes back to Seinfeldon.

Yeah, that's horrifying. That's hardifying. That is haunting. That's... I'm glad that's... Does your husband know about that? No, he doesn't. And maybe he won't make it this far into the podcast. Oh, boy, that.

Yeah. Could you tell me the worst career advice you've ever gotten? Oh, that's a good question. The worst career advice I ever got? Well, I mean, I didn't take it. That's good. There was a big agent who said, don't do silence of the lamps

because you're going to be the fat girl from now on. This is it. But then you wouldn't have done silence the lamps. Hello. And fuck you. Exactly. What other advice do people give you?

You know, they want you to go to shit. Yeah. Go to this party. Like whatever. Get out of my face. Yeah. Do this speed. All of it.

All of it. Do this speed? Trust me. Working with Anthony Hopkins again in bad company. Oh, look at that. He did his homework. Nobody knows that. Nobody knows that.

He was kind of my love interest or I was his love interest or something. It was great. It was really fun. It was a big, like, Hollywood movie where we're like chasing terrorists, you know, living in Prague. How great. Joel Schumacher. Speaking of speed. Yeah.

Yeah, we used to talk about it. It was later, you know, like he was sober, but yeah, we talked a lot about the old days. His old days sounded pretty. How cool was that? Kind of great. Yeah. Yeah. He was cool. I liked him. Or Schumacherheads, I would say. Oh, yeah. Oh, really? I think he gets a lot of flack, but I, why does he get flak? I don't know. I think that, I don't know, that the Batman's, I mean, I never saw them. They're, there, forever, no, forever is actively good. Forever is awesome because it's so, like, fantastically gay. Okay. And, like, the coolest way. Okay. So is Batman and But it's not good, though. That's not good. I might want to see those. I should probably

see them. You should see that at least forever. I think you'll enjoy it. Okay. Especially after you see Series 7 and I'll see. I'm doing that tonight. And then fanning. Oh man. We love Phantom. So cool. Phantom of the opera. Really? You do. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll see it at Panages. Oh, yeah. Okay. We're fanages. I don't care that Gerard can't sing in that thing. Yeah, he cannot sing. But. It still works for me. Wow. That all the Schumont Mockerness. Everything that he contributed is great. Okay. He's good. 2006. Oh my God. Brings- I'm not like this. I don't know the numbers. I got them. Okay. You don't need to know nothing. 2006 brings another massive career milestone with your first appearance as Dr. Erica Hahn. Oh, that was 2006? Wow.

Walk me through that process. Oh my God. And I remember the whole time thinking, this is such a coup. Like, why am I with the popular kids? Because like I guess if everything's high school, which it, yeah, I'm 59, seems like it is. I don't know. Yeah, I just thought they're going to find out. They're going to be like, what is this hardcore chick doing here? Get her out. I just happened to play in season one and two, the nemesis of Isaiah Washington. Dr. Burke, Preston.

Yes. Were you like a. Oh, yeah. Oh, look at that. I got off around season eight or nine, I think. Okay. Yeah, I was already going on. You were long.

And so when they fired Isaiah for, I guess... Some kind of homophobic thing, potentially, allegedly. Yeah. They asked me to take his place, which was very exciting. I did have this really weird thing happen that no one knows about. Hit me. Okay, so like, right when, what do you call it, like, you know, when your phone is on your car and you're talking?

Carplay or Bluetooth? Thank you. You know, Bluetooth. Yeah. It was just starting where you could be like on your phone. And then so I was waiting outside a restaurant. My car was coming up in the valet. I was talking on the phone to the people who had called me,

which were Miguel Farrar. He was on Crossing Jordan with me. And he was in Canada doing a movie with Isaiah Washington. And they called me at night like, hey, what's up? And I was like, holy shit, I just took this man's job. Like, clearly he doesn't know. Right. No one knows.

I'm going to have to tell him because he's going to remember this call. And so I told him. But as I was standing on the sidewalk waiting, the car came up and it swoop went into my car. You know, like how it does that? So I was like, ah, ah, ah, ah. And I got in the car and then my kids were in the back and it was just so weird. I had to tell him. Was the ballet guy a big Dr. Burk hit?

I have no idea about the valet guy. Oh my God. It was a- I mean, this is like a shocking, like, worldwide news story. at the time. The thing, the thing... Oh my God, it was so... People can't really... What's the equivalent of that now? Timothy Shalamee at the Knicks game, you know?

Yeah, I mean, like, it was... It was huge. It was really a big deal. Yeah. And I had that scene where I came out as being gay. Seen, I mean, seen. Well, yeah. It's, I mean, it's kind of like a groundbreaking, like, ahead of its time, really

realistic portrayal of this, of this... that happens. Yeah. And done in like a respectful, positive light? I thought so. I very much thought so. And yet. Mm.

And yet. Like at the end of the week where I had shot the scene of being, of coming out, and they said, this is the best scene we've ever had. We're so glad. And I was like fantastic. It's so complicated because while you're coming out to Callie, she's kind of like. Yeah, what was going on with her?

She was freaked out by it. I love this show. She's freaked out by it, and like, we as the audience, I mean, I felt sympathy for Dr. Hahn. Oh, good. You know? So how? Okay, so then check this out.

So how? So they tell me, they tell me at the end of the week, like, best scene ever shot. Then on like a Monday or Tuesday, I'm at work. They're like, I'm going home, and they're like, hey, stuff by the office, they want to talk to you. Swear to God. I just remember I was holding my Prius Cartman key. the whole time. Just clenching it?

Because I had no idea I was getting fired. I had no idea. Why would you be? You just shot this monument? Yeah. No idea. And so I went in and they just kept saying, we can't write for you. What does that mean?

I have no idea still, even still. And it's like Patrick Dempsey said, he's like, you were the only one they were writing for. Yeah. So I don't know. I guess it was some decision from up above. That's so bizarre. It was very weird.

It really fucked with me. though I didn't want to admit it at the time. I have a friend who just got fired, and I was like, I know you feel like it's all good, but it is going to mess with you. Yeah. Talk to somebody ASAP. Yeah, because you're kind of like, I mean, I moved my whole family here. I bought a house.

I had to sell my house. Like, it was bad. But 26 episodes of... Oh, he knows how many I did. Of, like, now this show is on, like, season 29 or 30 or something. This syndication's got to be all right. I mean, it's okay. You wish it was better.

I was making less than everybody because I was new, you know. You think it comes down to that at all? It did then. Okay. Yeah, because I think your residuals are tied to what you were getting at the time. So they're trying to keep everybody under 30 episodes or 100 episodes? I've never gotten like, you know. No, I mean, like, even though it's in syndication, I don't know how that affects me.

That was a good question. We should figure this out. They don't want you asking. Go look at my ears. But like, so you're working with this. cast on this show that is like a cultural milestone at its all-time peak. Does this just rapidly change your life?

Rapidly. Like overnight. Like you go to the supermarket and every fucking person there knows you. And they don't like you because you're like the bad guy or something. I guess you have to be totally likable. Well, because you took Callie from O'Malley in a way, right? Did I?

Well, were you? I'm thinking of Dr. Eric. Wow, he's really. I'm thinking of Erica's position on the show when O'Ma... Spoiler alert. When O'Malley dies. Oh. That was where they almost lost me.

And I think your stuff with... Wait a minute. Was I there? I think so. Because that was end of season five. I was gone after the seventh episode of season six. Yeah. So you were there. How about this?

How about they fire you? And you're like, okay, so how are you going to write me off? And they were... I was like, my last episode. They were like, this is it. And I was like, the one we're shooting right now. This incredible scene that is the best scene? I don't understand. So what? And so then they were like,

this is your last episode. So I was like, okay. So then there was this scene, my very last scene where I say goodbye to her. And I'm like, all of a sudden I want her to be like a radical lesbian or something. Things are black and white. You're either gay or you're not. And the whole thing was like, and I was like, I'm not going to yell this at her. That's fucking insane. And so they kept trying. It was a Friday night. It was like three in the morning. We were outside. The crew wants to go home. And they're like, can you just yell it at her? And I was like, what are you going to do? Fire me? Like, seriously. You gave up on my character. I did not. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. It's pretty weird. It's pretty weird. And I

swear to God, to this day. So like at the beginning of this year, I was doing a job and I was flying to Chicago. And when you work, they fly in first class. It's so great. You guys, it's so great. You're not in group eight. Right. I'm not going to get my bag up. You know what I mean? So I'm there and I asked this lady, I'm like, excuse me, do you, are you group one or two? It's very confusing. And she's like, I'm group one. And she turned to me and I thought, oh my God, it's the lady who fired me. No. I swear to God, that was my face. I just thought, oh my God, it's her. She was one of the writers from the show. Yeah. But then my birthday, this year, we go to dinner. The matre d is taking us to our seat. And he's like, oh, well, you know, I won't say her name.

you know blah blah blah let's stop by and say hi you i'm sure you want to see her and i was like who and he said the name and i was like no i don't want to see that person so then we like went to our table and i was like he's like what's the deal i said she fired me dude oh my god i'm such an well here's the thing here's the positive spin on it okay everybody else on that show who gets written off dies the most horrific death horrible horrible death eaten by wolves after a plane crash who got eaten by wolves uh Lexie gray and mark sloan i think Literally eaten by wolves. I think they talk about wolves eating their porches.

This sounds like I didn't see Euphoria. So if you are... I haven't seen the news. I don't see it. And I am not going to see it. Sure. But Jacob Allorty? I don't know.

I don't know. I'm going to watch it. Oh, you are? I've seen the spoiler. I can't say it. I won't watch it. But you guys know what I'm saying. Like the end of that sounded like, are you going to me?

I think she's more brutal than anything in Game of Thrones. Who? She. Wait. Shanda's mind has, is violent and cruel. No, it's okay I know there were certain people who did die really bad deaths

Brutal shit man And I didn't O'Malley? Yeah, what happened? He got hit by a bus Like literally hit by a bus? You got hit by the bus And then he's in the bed

And then he writes 007 in mirror this hand And then he's been this John Doe The whole episode I don't remember any of this It was good shit And they don't realize it's him They don't realize it's him

And then the end of the episode They realized it was him And that's the thing Because he was so fucked up Yeah Oh I know it was good learning all this medical jargon.

Oh, my God. You know what? And I cared. Others were like, why are you taking this so seriously? I was like, because I have to know what the fuck I'm saying. It's so hard. It was hard. And, you know, they'll let actors do anything.

Yeah. Like, if you're playing a cop, they'll let you go on drive-bys. Cool. You know, they'll let you do whatever. So they were like, you know, do you want to go see some surgeries? And I was like, I don't think so. And it was Patrick. He was like, why wouldn't you want to go?

go. And I was like, okay. And so I went and I almost fainted. Really? Yeah. Horrific death. I'm really glad someone told me the symptoms of fainting. You get like weak in the back of your knees and you feel like like you can't really breathe. That's what happened. Because it was this guy he was like 40. Seeing a guy. And it was the way that they were rubbing them down with the bedadine, this naked body. Yeah. And they're listening to rap music like literally listening to like, I like big butts and I get a lie. I swear to God. And they're like, man, I know. And you're just like, ah. And then they just finger bit off.

They cut his whole fucking chest right. Yeah, is that really different than CBG music? I mean. You know? At least this is a controlled environment. Yeah. Yeah. You were roommates with Jeff Buckley?

I was. Let's talk about it. I mean, I met him in L.A. He was the concierge at the Magic Hotel in Hollywood next to the Magic Castle. What the hell? He had long hair. I turned him on to bad brains. which he that was a big regret in his life i can say that that he never saw them he actually flew

to see them in chicago or something once um and i and i guess HR got arrested and they could like hit someone with a mic or some crazy i don't know you'd be like yeah we know no that's cool um yeah so jeff had never been to new york and wanted to come i hooked him up with uh he played with p.D. Heinz and jimmy i i introduced them all And he was trying to get something going with them for a while. Just like a hardcore band? Like something. What the fuck?

I don't even know. Just very strange. And he wrote, he was writing Grace. And then he met his girlfriend and then he moved out. And then, yeah. What did you think of Grace when it came out? It's unbelievable. It's one of the best records ever.

I agree. Yeah, I still miss Jeff. Some people you just miss. And living with somebody like that is so crazy. And then his legacy. And P.S. played guitar all fucking night long every single day, 24 hours a day. Or it's like, Jeff, shut up.

You're never going to make one of the best records. No, even if you are, just shut up. I was like, oh my God. And so now when people say you should just play, play, play, play, I thought, yeah. And give good foot massages. He gave great foot massage. He said it was about fingers getting strong, no? Jeff Buckley, I mean, dexterity?

I guess, I don't know. So guitar dexterity contributes to foot massage strength? Yes, yes. You hear that? ladies. The musicians are all right. You hear that men who have girlfriends or whoever who have

people who want massages. The guitar player isn't so useless after all. I thought it was the drummers. They're scum. I could never get a drummer. You don't want it. You don't want that. They're freaks. That's why they're playing drums. You don't want that.

So Jeff Buckley's legacy his posthumous legacy that just grows every single day does that just kind of touch you in a special way every time you hear his name or hear his music somewhere? I didn't see the documentary. I was gonna, and it was a mutual friend who was like, why would you want to see that?

We knew him, and it's someone else's version of him. Interesting. And I thought, yeah, I think you're probably right, so I didn't say it. He had a complicated relationship with his mom. Wow. So that gets weird. Does you bring that with you to Bates Motel when you worked?

in a way. What do you mean? Speaking of complicated relationships with moms. Oh, he said, you're looking for a segue. That was hokey. That was good. No. That was good.

Speaking of complicated relationships with moms. As a matter of fact, that reminds me. That's a good show. It was a good show. You guys, Bates Motel. Did you see it? I didn't see it. It's good show.

Because I kept thinking, why would you do this? Why would you make this show? Just like with Titanic. We know how it ends. Yeah, yeah. Same thing. The sky goes crazy. I think it's too scary for me, probably.

But I just thought the original, why would you want. Sure. It's not the original. Well, there's Psycho 2 with Vince Vaughn and... Yeah, I'm not going to see that. Or Milakuna's for right? Really? I think so.

Am I making that? No. No, she's American Psycho, too. There's an American Psycho too. She's the... In the shower. The... Oh, the kid?

The... She's the one who comes to... In our show, it was Rihanna. Really? Pretty cool. We had Rihanna. And now she's a deity. Yeah, she was then, too.

She was. Would you say motherhood as defined as? find this most recent kind of 20-year chapter of your life? Oh, wow, defined it. They're cool kids, aren't they? How old is your kid? I have two now. Oh, yeah, they're pretty cool.

Are they like boys and girls? One is fresh out the womb. Yeah. Really? Yeah, I've got a 10-week-old. Oh, my God. Yeah. So you're just here for the vacation of it all.

This is my playtime for me, and then I've got to go home. But, no, I think it changed kind of everything for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think it does. In a good way. Are you doing that? No, no, no. Ever? I got three dogs. Unbelievable. I mean, I have four cats and two dogs.

I don't have Silence of Lambs on T&T right now. I mean, I got horrible. It's like $20. So, yeah, no, they're pretty great. Definitely. I love my kids. And you make little versions of yourself that are better. Yes.

And they get cool shirts. It's true. They are better and they get cool shirts. Yours are both getting cool shirts. But the little one is bummed that the big one took all the good stuff. Oh, really? Yeah, because she's got that bad brains. She's got, I got my victim in pain back.

You got that back. I was like, come on, why did I give you that? You shouldn't be wearing this shirt? No. It's the white one with the, with the, no, yes. Yes. It's not white. It's, isn't it black?

It's black. There's, I'm sure. Does she like white and pain? She does. Okay. Yeah. So she's not out there posing. No, no, that's good.

That's good. They're cool. Yeah. Do they know about your wild pass in this? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. There's not really anything they don't know.

They think it's cool? I think so. I hope not too cool. Oh. That's awesome. It's funny because I've talked to straight-edge. Let's go back to the straight-edge thing for a second. I've said to Elgin, like, so you have a son, like, what are you going to do?

Like, when he smokes weed. He's not going to smoke weed. I'm going to not care, I think. You can't care. I think that's the secret. Yeah. I think if you care too much, that's a problem. Yeah.

I mean, I think about this. Because I show my son hardcore. and different music. And I think that the key is, I want him to have a life in an upbringing where he doesn't need hardcore. Oh, fascinating. Where maybe it's just music to him.

And he doesn't need a community outside of his family or outside of his school because he's got nothing else. Like, I don't ever want him to feel that way. Is that how you got into hardcore? Yeah, definitely. Is that how everyone did? I think it's something that you either find yourself and that that's what makes it extra special or you find it via somebody but the the personal

connection you develop with it is kind of what keeps you in it for your whole life whereas if mom is like you need to this is shit you need to know it's maybe not as cool totally yeah like I think I think for us hardcore was a place to go because we didn't have another place to go yeah and for him hopefully I'm not saying that I don't want him to go to shows or be involved or be in a band or anything like that but I'd like to hope that his upbringing he doesn't

need to find something somewhere else out of necessity. There's a lot of cool shit around your house, you know? There is a lot of movies and music. But yeah I think that that's the difference. Yeah because I think you know we didn't talk about it back then but it was

definitely a common denominator that we all you know childhood trauma or whatever the heck. We didn't have those words. And I think that's the difference between maybe... Yeah, we didn't, like, sit around talking about our childhood trauma. But it was that thing of, like, you wanted something truthful and real. Like, everything else felt so full of shit.

Yeah, totally. You know? To this day. But is it like that now? Because, like, even when I do my pitch for my series, I say, like, my kids, when I was their age, there were so many things I couldn't talk about that were going on right in front of my face, like whether it's dad drunk at the table or being sexually abused or whatever the fuck.

A thousand percent. And now they have words for everything. Yeah. And they diagnose themselves and they have all this. But I fear that it means, and then that's great. Yeah. But I fear that they're not getting out there and experiencing. Well, I don't know that anyone is going to connect to hardcore in that same way anymore.

I don't think they would, right? Because it's encouraged to go get help or to talk to people about it. And that's a great thing. Right. But you don't need to go outside of your immediate circle to get that anymore. So maybe not. You know, maybe it is music and just energy, whereas before it was like kind of a necessity to exist for a lot. You can learn a lot from being afraid about yourself and about what you want to be.

And you learn a lot every time you fail at something or have a bad experience, then you know it's a bad experience and you know what a good one is. And hardcore is a great experience. But sometimes it's a bad experience. But it's interesting because I saw someone recently who was back in the scene. Again, people don't know him, probably. And, you know, all these years have passed. And we never got to talk about, like, what was actually going on with him then. And so talking about it now was wild.

Because I didn't know. He was just this kid, you know? But I guess that's why he was there. Yeah. You know. Here we are. Here we are. Is there anything that either of you learned from your,

upbringing and hardcore music that you've applied to parenting? Either of us? Yeah. Oh, because we're parents. Yeah. My parent friends. Any of my parent friends. I mean, HC to parenting pipeline. I'm still...

You're getting that. I'm still... You're doing great. Not as experience. Great kids. But, I don't know. I would say it's hardcore has taught me things to not do. And in the sense, like what Licklard I was just saying, like, it made me reflect on how I grew up and sort of changing things,

changing that story, changing how I approach him. You know, I think I listened to him a lot more than I was listened to. You know? Yeah, definitely relate to that. That's a big, big thing for us as parents, for me and my wife, is even if he's freaking out about something he should not be freaking out, if he did something wrong it's always like how are you feeling calm down like hand on his chest calm him down and then let him let him speak yeah you know yeah and uh i don't know if hardcore taught me

that but maybe maybe hardcore gave me the voice so the idea to have that everyone should have a voice so allow him even as a six-year-old he should be allowed to have a voice yeah i agree with that he is literally he is today he is oh he is actually the youth of today. I was at one of those conventions recently and this like, I'm old and this old guy came up wearing a Youth of Today t-shirt. Yeah, right, buddy. Oh my God. Jesus Christ. Yeah. No, I would just say, just be fucking honest. Yeah. That's all. I don't, I'm honest with my kids. And yet, meet them where they are. Love that. 100%. Because like we did Waldorf. I don't know about you, but we sent the first kid to Waldorf school. Yeah.

Does anyone know what that is? So no phones, no technology, no videos. They can't watch anything. She didn't watch anything until she was like four years old. She is like the last generation, though, I think, because she's 23. So she's not glued to her phone. She doesn't care really. But the little one, different.

Yeah. How do we stop that? I don't think it's possible. Yeah. Because everything is phone. Everything is phone. This is phone. I can't.

Like, I went to the dentist the other day, and they're like, did you fill out the form? And I was like, no. And they were like, why? And I said, because it's the same. And I can't do another portal. Like, I can't. The portals. No more portals.

I'm standing right here. Ask me whatever you want to know. I got to sign it. I got to fucking fill out an email to send an email now. That's what I'm saying. Fuck off. It's too much. I think we try.

If we want to listen to music, you put a record on. A physical. That's really good. You know, if you want to do that. Movies, it's a screen. You know, we have movies, but like, yeah, it's hard. Because we, especially in the pandemic, we tried really hard to not do any screen time for as long. We held out as long as we could.

But then Mario Cove. Then you get them a switch and that's all he wants to do. But we were the same. Yeah. Game Boy Color. And you're like, you've been off video games for this whole time I've been sitting here. I know. I'm only like a little bit itchy.

Should we go? Chalim now? I have three more questions. Okay. All right. All right, quick. Let's play a little game. All right.

You may hate this. All right. Every character you've ever played goes to see Agnostic Front and Warzone at CBGBs. Jesus Christ. Who stays and has a great time and who leaves in disgrace? Oh, my God. That's good. You just give me one that leaves, one that has a great time.

I think Dr. Hahn has a great time. I think so. I think she does. Because there's some sexy ladies at CB's. Right? I think she's just like, this is the shit right here. Yeah. And we don't know what happened to her after.

What was the hospital called at that time? Sloan. Sloan, Jonah. What? Something Memorial, right? It's right over there in Norbridge. What the hell's it called? Sloan.

Come on. Yeah, we know this. No, Mark Sloan is the guy. And then it's not Sloan Kettering. Seattle Grace. Seattle Grace. Thank you. Jesus.

Sorry. Lord, that was a lot. Yeah, I like that. Who wouldn't? Who wouldn't like them? You tell me. All right, I'm just going to see, but nobody knows. It was a TV show I did recently, and she had to be stupid.

She had to have been hit in the head by something. Okay. Because why is she going out with this guy thinking he's going to be okay when he already killed two people he was married to? She got hit in the head at CB's. Yeah. Maybe. But I don't think she got it when she was there either. She was like, what is this?

We got to go. I love it. Great answer. Well, what was the show? It's called The Hunting Party? Okay. It's not. I mean, you know. I get you. It's just that black widow thing. Like, if you meet someone, if you meet someone, and you're going to date them.

Yeah. And they have killed the two people they were previously married to. Yes. Are you like, I'm different? No. No. Because you're not stupid. Not stupid. Right. I try to tell myself that. Yeah, that's good. It's good. But here we are. What's next for you? What feels left to accomplish? Making the show. Yeah. It's driving me crazy, though, you guys. It's taking forever.

I can't wait to see this show and write 10 albums for it. It's driving me crazy. But this is how it works, right? Yeah, but part of me goes, fuck this. Yeah. And I should be like it was back in the day and just go make it myself. Just go make it. Because why does everything have to be a series?

Although for us, there's so much. There's so much. There is so much material. Right. So now I have to go, like originally I had a screenplay, and then I expanded it to series. and now I have to, if I'm going to do that, go back. So for me, that's the whole thing. I literally feel like if I made whatever the Sunday matinee,

either movie or series or limited or whatever, then I could retire in peace. I can't wait for you to retire in peace. Oh, thanks. After seeing this, because I want it to happen. Right? I think it should. It's right there. And the background is just background to show and develop these amazing,

amazing character. Exactly. Tell these amazing stories. And it's from the female perspective. Love it. Perfect. Just I am. And that leaves us just one last question.

Uh-oh. Yeah. Brooke Smith. Can you tell us your top four hardcore records of all time? Okay. I'm going New York. Okay. Bad brains.

Okay. Rock for light. Agnostic front victim and pain. Tell me a little bit about each record that... Oh, do people just go like... Yeah, they do. They do. And I like when people talk about them a little bit. I mean, nothing's come close to bad brains for me.

Yeah. Like, nothing. And I still listen to them. So, you know, I just, it blew my whole brain out, like, completely. By the way, I was thinking before about sitting in my car once with Harley and how we used to put on White Riot by The Clash and talk about, oh, my God, remember this was the fastest fucking song you ever heard ever? Now it's so slow. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, just thought of that. It's like regular rock music. Yeah, it's like, what's happening? Pick it up. Pick it up. Please. Okay.

And then agnostic front was just because the whole fucking thing. Like, I just feel like I was part of the band or something. And then... Because they're kind of the kings in New York. They are. Fully. I think. And then Cromach's Age of Quarle.

Yeah. It's my number three, I would say. I still listen to it as well. I can't believe it. It gets better every day. It's kind of amazing, right? Like, what the heck? Now, four's tough.

Four is a tough one. And I'm going to say Murphy's Law. Has anyone ever said that? I'm saying it. Not on record. I love it. You know what? I'm saying it.

I love it. Yeah. I mean, I also love Clause for alarm, and I love... But the weed. But the weed. Murphy's Law. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But those shows, you know, just like the whole thing in the beginning. I don't know. I just think those would be my faves probably. Awesome. Awesome. Is that good? You killed it. All right. Who did Ray say? He said negative approach. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. He said Agnostic Front, United Blood. Oh, he said United Blood. Yeah. Had to be different. That first single. Yeah, yeah. SSD, of course. Oh, yeah. You know. The kids were.

will have the other one. Uniform choice. Uniform choice. Oh. There you go. That makes sense. Wow, that's bold. I mean, they put out breaking on walls, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, they did. Brooks Smith. Sunday matinee. Third press coming soon. Yeah, it's coming. And it's different colors. We made it different.

Oh. Yeah, a little bit different. Okay. Can't wait to see it. Can't wait to read it. Radio Rahim will also be bringing you her silence of the land. And if not. Hardware publishing will be.

bringing it to you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me guys. What a great time. Yeah. Are there any imparting words of wisdom you'd like to leave the world with? Imparting words of wisdom. I don't know. I think we should just all put our shit down and look in each other's eyes and just see what's up. How's that? Perfectly said. Because like everyone's distracted. And I think we should just calm down. Well said. Perfectly said. Love it. Brooks. All right. Unbelievable. Yay. Thank you all so much for being here watching. See you next week. Bye. Hey y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like,

what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca.