HardLore - Claudio Sanchez (Coheed & Cambria)

Starting point is 00:00:00 When you finish writing Welcome Home, is there, do you have a moment as a band of just like, we've done it? We did it. Well, here, check this out. I wrote Welcome Home and I was still living in my parents' house at this time. So I wrote it- That'll get you out of there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:00:17 So anyway, I'm in the kitchen area. I'm in my boxers, I got an acoustic guitar, and it's a small kitchen area. And I'm sitting on the floor and I'm creating that riff. I finish the song and get the kind of melody and I'm like, holy shit, this song is the shit. Like I got, I have this feeling. Yeah, yeah. My mother comes down and she's like, what the fuck? And she's like ready to do laundry.

Starting point is 00:00:41 And they're like, mom, listen. This guy's, what is wrong with this kid? It's Hardlord Time. How you doing, Bo? I'm doing great. Where are we? We are currently on the SS Never Ender in Kazumel, Mexico. And it's a big day.

Starting point is 00:01:20 It's a big day. We've got an unbelievable guest on the show today. This is decades in the making for me. Very exciting. I've been a co-heed guy for a long time, and it's our honor to be joined by vocalists and guitarists, Claudio, dear Claudio O, of Coheon camera. Thank you for being here.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Thanks for having me. Hell yeah. Unbelievable. Was it at all inspired by the Fresh Prince of Blair, Will Smith being called Will Smith that the Amory War's protagonist is called Claudia? What? Oh!

Starting point is 00:01:58 Because Will is the main character. It is genius. It is genius. Explain. There's no Kramer in him. There's no Kastanza. He's Will Smith. No Harry Potter. So Claudia, that's you doing all that shit. Right. You know, for me, I think it was an accident. Right? So when I started

Starting point is 00:02:14 writing second stage, or again, when I was writing second stage was a kid, you know, so it wasn't like, I'm like, I'm writing record, you know. But at the time, I did have this idea that I was going to take my life and I was going to put it into a concept, but I didn't know entirely

Starting point is 00:02:30 how to execute that, what the details of that were going to be. I mean, some of those songs, I mean, like, Delirium Trigger, for example, like, is almost a song about the alien movies, you know, things like, you know, like, but you know what I mean? But, like, I was like, you know, I didn't really understand what the translation

Starting point is 00:02:48 of the things that I was experienced. my life would actually look like when it came time to the comics and you know when I wrote everything evil I threw my name in there yeah not realizing that okay that's such a that's a name that's a name like who is that going to be that has to be someone I mean it's so specific yeah and so then you know I wish I could have been like George Lucas and named the character Luke you know what I mean I mean you think about it right like that's George Lucas yeah himself in there you know but it instead I accidentally sing my name loud and clear in that song.

Starting point is 00:03:25 And here we are. When did music begin for you? You know, music has always been in my life because of my dad. My dad is a huge music person, like just in terms of listening as a fan. We both relate to that. Yeah, like, dude, he listened to everything. I mean, he played music, played a little guitar, but not like Travis's father or Josh's dad. Like, you know, these were like music, man, that...

Starting point is 00:03:53 Generational rippers? Yeah, you know, like, um, yeah, like, right. And like, but my dad played a little bit, but not, he wasn't gigging. Okay. You know, uh, but he listened to music and all the time. What was playing? Uh, you know, we got Sting, Hendricks. He would listen to Latin music, artists I don't even know, you know, Bella Fleck and the

Starting point is 00:04:14 fleck tones, like, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, jazz guys. You know, again, just things that were always in my... So you're sponging all this stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So I never... So that's the thing is like, I mean, as a kid, like I would like latch on to certain acts, like certain artists. But for the most part, it was like... It was just like I would take things from the stuff that was just playing around me.

Starting point is 00:04:37 You know? But yeah, he listened to so much stuff and still does. Like he is an interesting cat. And then my mother on the other side, you know, she was listening to the 80s pop, temporary stuff I was growing up to that he wasn't listening. Sure. So I was, you know, pulling. This is all in the DNA.

Starting point is 00:04:56 Yeah, all of it. Very cool. So, uh... What about the guitar? So the guitar starts, so, um, in middle school, I, um, it's funny. This is, I, and if you guys know this, I'm so sorry, uh, that I'm being redundant, but this is kind of a long story, right? So I all means.

Starting point is 00:05:14 So I get into middle school. And, uh, at this time, I'm like, I'm starting to develop, my own personality with music. And at that time, it's rock music. It's like contemporary, like, glam bands or guns and roses, right? That's the stuff that's on the television that's, like, appealing to me. Honestly, the first time was, like, I went fishing with a friend of mine, and his older brother was across the lake listening to talk dirty to me over and over again.

Starting point is 00:05:46 Cool. Bang. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, like, over and over again. And, like, at that time, I didn't have a musical identity. I was fishing for music of my own. I was just getting what was coming to wars.

Starting point is 00:05:58 You were just from my folks. You were fishing for fish at that time. Right, exactly. Music on the tenor, yeah. But, so I'm, so that, I go home, and now I'm, like, discovering that era of music, deaf leopard, guns and roses, that sort of stuff. And so I get into middle school, and I'm wearing a deaf leopard hysteria shirt. and my friend Patrick, who's still a friend of mine,

Starting point is 00:06:19 he's actually on the boat. Fucking beautiful. He's wearing a Cinderella backpatch, and so we became friends. Like, you know, the middle school was, you know, we met there. And so one day he asks me, he's like, hey, do you want to start a band?

Starting point is 00:06:34 And I didn't play an instrument. He was going to be the singer. A lot of charisma. So I say charisma, like, that's what I was thinking in middle school. I don't think that works. Like this guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. I have to be in my charismatic's friend.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Man, no matter what. But, so we did, and I'm like, you know what, I'm going to play the drums. It seems like the easiest thing. And they are the easiest. 100% drums are the easiest. Yeah, yeah, no, right. Your life would be so much easier. But I'm like, you know, but that's just my thinking.

Starting point is 00:07:08 I'm like, I can hit things, whatever. Like, I'm not thinking about the nuance of the instrument. I'm thinking, you know, what's the easiest thing and the fastest thing that I might be able to learn? to participate in this thing that my friend wants to do. And so I say the drums. I don't have drums. I get a pair of drumsticks. I'm hitting a pillow, literally.

Starting point is 00:07:26 Like, that's what I'm doing. Like probably every chops. Yeah. Getting those chops. And so we're like, okay, well, we're going to try to find a guitar player. And so we flyer the town. Looking for a guitar player. What town is this?

Starting point is 00:07:40 This is where he lived in Nyack, New York. So just outside of the city, a commuter town, 40, 40 minutes. Don Draper where he lived? I don't even know who Don Draper is. Madman. Oh, okay, my wife's watched that show. I don't, I don't, I'm... She'll know what I'm talking.

Starting point is 00:07:55 It's like a commuter town. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just like where Don Draper lives. Yeah, it's like nice. Like, Naek was pretty cool because it was like a very artsy kind of community. Okay, cool. But we flyer the town,

Starting point is 00:08:08 and we get a call. Guy comes over. Now, we're, we don't have a rehearsal spot. We're in my friend's bedroom, which is tiny. and my man comes in with his amp, his pedal, like small pedal board and guitar, and he rips, he shreds all over the place. That's pretty advanced for that time. Oh, Mike, for middle school too, yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:26 Well, he wasn't in middle school. I think he was just getting into high school, and he was like, he saw it right through us. Yeah. You know, like he got in there, he started to play. You guys suck, watch this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of. I'm out of here. But he didn't say it like that to us directly.

Starting point is 00:08:40 You know, he's just like, he's ripping, and I noticed this one thing on top of his amp, and it's rushes, permanent waves. And I don't know who rushes, but I remember the, maybe it's not permanent waves. It's the one with the 50s aesthetic of the woman in like a... So it's not 2112. It's not. But I remember it like, like I'm in the moment right now looking down and the amplifier, you know, because this is a big moment for me. So anyway, I'm playing, fooling around and this guy's ripping him. We're both so enthusiastic like my friend Pat and I, and we're like, this is the guy. Yeah. And so he's like, listen, if I'm going to join your band, we have to play Rush covers.

Starting point is 00:09:22 And I don't know who Rush is. Whoa. And I'm going to beat the drummer, right? So I'm like, yeah, of course we can play Rush covers. I have no idea who Rush is. And so anyway, I agree to this. He leaves. And that night, some random person calls my friend Patrick telling him that,

Starting point is 00:09:46 He'll, nameless, we'll call him nameless, things were nothing but a bunch of dreamers, nothing will happen for us, you know, forget it. Like, he's not going to join. Nameless, right? Yeah. He shall remain nameless for real. So I go into, my dad had an acoustic that he bought for my brother. And I was like, I was like, fuck that guy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:13 I'll play the guitar. Yeah. And that was it. And it's funny because, like, you know, Rush, I was never, I never was a fan of them growing up because of this moment. Sure. You know, and then funny enough, like, Cohede becomes who Cohede is. And that's the one man we get on, Nate, you know, get a reference. So are, do you, do you get into Rush real deep?

Starting point is 00:10:36 Well, you know, like, after a while, like, because we got it so frequently that it was like, I need to, I need to, I, I need to like just break down the wall and listen. Yeah. And I also know what not to do kind of. No, totally. Totally. Yeah. But I also, I kind of appreciated Rush. I found some records that I liked of theirs. And I also feel this like connection of oddity with them.

Starting point is 00:11:03 Yeah, yeah, big time. You know, like, oh, interesting. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's like, I get it. Because, you know, I think of like all they have accomplished and how, you know, I mean, they're huge. I mean, right now they're doing their thing kind of coming back and like it's selling at and like but there's this like thing like, you know, they remained

Starting point is 00:11:26 on, at least from where I'm standing, on the outside of this rock thing that was happening in the 70s. And yet they kind of, they just paved their own... Stayed the course, yeah. And so I aspire that, I aspire to follow in that with Cohe. So you're telling you. me that the first domino of drumming on a pillow to being on a ship is spite? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:11:54 It's pretty cool, man. That's something I've always wanted because there's so many things, so many things are happening in Coheed at once. I've wanted to talk to you about extreme music for so long, because there's, I hear everything in Coheed. Is this something you, like are you a big punk guy, are you a hardcore guy, are you a death metal guy in there? I mean, I think I'm just a music guy. Yeah. Like, I definitely have my moments with punk music. I've definitely had moments with death metal. I just am open. Yeah. You know, I find... I walked in here and you were like, oh, into another shirt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that means a lot to me.

Starting point is 00:12:34 Yeah. Oh, right on. Anybody knowing what that is, it's cool. Yeah. And being from New York, New York. Yeah, yeah. I just want to make sure I was on the right side of the... Stately. Yeah. Being from where you're from, you're kind of, and especially at the time that you're talking about, you're kind of in an epicenter of the punk and metal and hardcore. Did you ever identify with any of those scenes as you were getting into music in your journey? You know, I just, I didn't really know what scenes were until I became, until I started playing in a band. Okay. And even then, you know, because I wasn't the frontman, I wasn't focused on that. Like, you know, I was just there to play and get that, you know, that gratification from that.

Starting point is 00:13:22 And everything else really didn't matter. I wasn't really the identity of the band. Sure. That makes any sense. And so, you know, that was it. I think it wasn't until the band before Cohede where I actually began. became the person fronting it and started to get the ridicule for the way I sang made me understand what scenes were, what the lines were, you know.

Starting point is 00:13:46 I mean, I understood as a fan like, you know, what hardcore was, what punk was, what grunge was. I understood those sorts of things, but like, but I also feel like the era that I grew up in, like, you know, when you think of like Lollapalooza and the collection of bands that would like play that sort of thing, it never, the lines never felt as done. as defined to me. Sure. That makes any sense.

Starting point is 00:14:10 Which we believe in. Yeah, no. We don't like rigid, rigidity. Right, right. That's not something that we're trying to even. Yeah. And I think those lines are more blurred than ever. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:14:20 You look at this cruise. Right. How am I doing here? Yeah. So that band, are you talking about Beautiful Loser? Uh, Shibouti. Yeah, yeah. That era of time, yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:33 What era of time is this? This is the 90s. Okay. We're like, I'm still kind of in high school, probably 94, 95. You know, um, 94 in New York is a good year. It's a good year. Right before Master Killer, et cetera. It's good time.

Starting point is 00:14:49 Set off. Does the boy, the voice? Right. Does that just happen? Yeah. It can't, like it, it took a lot of time to become what it is, but like my initial, like, when it comes out, it's like that. Okay. But, you know, back then it had no, like,

Starting point is 00:15:06 structure or form it was just who who were you doing and who was I doing it because interesting that you didn't know who rush was right assuming you're saying happy birthday at parties right in your voice you know to be doing that voice it's funny because that's another comparison I'm sure you get yeah yeah where who are you doing is one of our questions so that's a recurring question I think for me Michael Jackson fuck yeah not but like yeah that's who I that I mean that's like the single that, you know, when I was a kid and Beat it came on, you know, MTV, it was like,

Starting point is 00:15:42 oh, this is dangerous. You know what I'm like, you know. They're knife fighting out there. Yeah, I know. As my dad, like, laughs at that moment. He's like, that ain't had. You tell him Scorsesey directed that, and then there's nothing to laugh at. Yeah, yeah, you're a bad video, yeah.

Starting point is 00:15:58 Come on, man. But, yeah, that, that, there was also this band around, around the Nyack area. I think they were from Connecticut. They were called Pumpernickel. Okay. And the fellow that was in that band also had a side project called Junebug. And I would get the tapes.

Starting point is 00:16:22 And I liked it a lot because he sang in an ultraly high voice. Oh. Yeah. And then I discovered Josh's brother's band three when Josh actually played in him. and Joey had like way more of a nuanced control to his voice. Almost more in like a Stevie Wonder kind of thing. Oh.

Starting point is 00:16:42 And that was a little like inspiring. Saw him play the other night? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy. You ever hear of Nitra? Dude. The like glam band, hair metal band? My, you know about Nitra?

Starting point is 00:16:54 My mother-in-law dated Michelangelo. No shit. Do you know what Michelangelo is? The devil from Shockin' Dead. Oh, really? Quad-Bat-a-a-quad guitar guy who can just do, Alta and Bredectrus, no problem. You gotta get on quad, man.

Starting point is 00:17:07 No, no. Two ain't enough. So Nitro had a singer, small deviation from the conversation, but he could break glass, like on video. Couldn't it? Night Train is the song. Dope, and. Very sick.

Starting point is 00:17:22 But he also was the devil in Shocked of Dead. Do you ever see that movie? No. He goes into horror movies? Oh, yeah. So he's the dude that Martin, when Martin goes to hell to, like, sell his soul, he's the dude doing that. He's the dude.

Starting point is 00:17:32 He's the Tread. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. That's unbelievable. We used to watch that movie all the time, my friend Pat and I. And then when my wife told me that she was like, she's like, you know, my mom went to the dean, like, party, the guitar fact, you know, and she started talking to this guy, Michelangelo. I was like, you mean the devil from Shot from Dead?

Starting point is 00:17:54 I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, it was pretty wild. That was awesome. All right. So Shibouti, let's talk about this. Do you consider this canon to like the Cohede universe and discography? No, I definitely think of it as the roots, though, because, you know, when I was... This is like the beginning of me as like a songwriter.

Starting point is 00:18:14 Like, putting out more songs than, you know, than just, like, kind of writing the riff and, like, being a part. Like, I'm like... Intention, the intention. Yeah. And at the time, like, I'm still having this, like, struggle of, like, putting myself in the song. so I'm creating like these narratives to kind of put my story behind. I mean, not like there's a lot of people listening to this thing. You know, we're playing youth centers and like small spots.

Starting point is 00:18:41 Yeah, what is what is touring like for you in the Shibouti world? It's community centers, you know, pretty much. It's like up and down the through wave between Woodstock, New York, and Nyack. Whoever has access to a van's van kind of thing. Yeah, totally. So not like the Hobbit to Lord. of the Rings, but not totally similar to the Hobbit. Right, yeah, that's a good analogy.

Starting point is 00:19:07 Shabootie? Hobbit? Hobbit, got it. Cohead? Ward of Rings. Shire Booty. So, how does Cohede come to fruition then? So I took a trip to Paris in 1998 to visit a friend of mine who's doing a semester abroad, or yeah, a whole year abroad.

Starting point is 00:19:27 So I went there for about a year. And when I was there and I came out of the subway and I noticed like the aesthetic of the architecture, the fonts, I'm like, oh my God, this is like I'm on another planet. Because I've never been anywhere outside of New York. I mean, New Jersey was foreign to me. You know what I mean? It's foreign to us. Yeah. So I started, that's where I started conceptualizing this idea of like, all right, well, I've been writing these songs and they're all sort of disconnected.

Starting point is 00:20:00 maybe I should create characters that I can like put, you know, use as, you know, I can take my life and motivate those characters as opposed to just being like, you know, random. Like Shibouti, for example, had a song called No More Bunnies that was like, oh, if I remember correctly, it was like a war between this like bunny colony and like turtles. It was like, you know, something like that. It was like something like so like, it just didn't have, It didn't have like the identity.

Starting point is 00:20:30 But you can dig deeper and find, you know, like World War I in there. Yeah, right, right. It's in there. Again, Lord of the Right. But for me, I was like, I'm going to take, you know, I'm going to do this thing and it's going to be, you know, I'm going to use my relationship with this person that I'm visiting as like the nucleus to this story and this landscape that I'm in that's so foreign to me. I'm going to use that as the basis for to hide my life behind. You know, I'm going to give characters, create characters that are, you know, loosely be based after us. And initially, like, the idea of, like, Co-Eating Cambria were the two of us.

Starting point is 00:21:12 Right. But, like, and there was a bag shop across the street called The Bag Online, and I took that, and that was the original Co-Heat Comics. There was two of them. It was, like, The Bag Online Adventures of Co-Eating Cambria. But as I started writing the song, songs and Time Consumer and June song were the two songs that I wrote like out there in in Paris. Awesome.

Starting point is 00:21:33 I started to, you know, I took them home and I started to realize that, you know, a lot of this isn't about me and my love interest. It's really more of a story about family, like sort of mimicking the things that like my dad was sort of going through. And I almost sort of saw them as the heroes, my parents, and, you know, I then become a different character. the story so so it was you know the the concept was it was birthed in Europe but it really kind of found its identity in at my home Amory Drive wow that is so how old were you when you were in Paris 98 you said 98 so it's just at a high school about so like 18 that's so ambitious yeah had you been a writer like a actual like storywriter in any form not really no I just wrote song

Starting point is 00:22:26 You know, I loved big scope stories like clearly Star Wars or anything like that. But I had never, I never, I was, I don't think I was ever really an aspiring, like, writer. Like an author. These are just lyrics to you that become something else. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Very cool. So second stage turbine blade. Right.

Starting point is 00:22:48 debut LP, landmark, Equal Vision Records, founded by Rick Apo from you today. Another connection. So many genres blended together, but so much of the DNA of Cohete is like immediately there. Take me back to making this record. Okay. So this record is a series of demos. Yep. And the Delirium Trigger EP.

Starting point is 00:23:14 Yeah. So those songs were, those songs already existed. Nate played drums on them, made from Shibouti. So, yeah, Delirium and 33 were already kind of living in the music. the world. You know, I was writing a bunch of stuff and as a band we were putting things together. Initially, again, it was us doing a series of demos and trying to get a deal with Equal Vision. Of course. So you were working for a deal from Equal Vision?

Starting point is 00:23:43 Yeah. I mean, like, or somebody. Yeah, pretty much. But I think at this time, they were like, you know, they wanted to hear material. We were putting it together. And when it was done, they were like, well, you got a record. and we're like, oh, that's how it works. I mean, I think we were so green.

Starting point is 00:23:58 Sure. But for me, like, I was, you know, I was becoming a lyricist that was going to actually put together a real record. So a lot of, like, my life in there is very confusing, you know, because, again, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to tell my story without, like, giving away too many details. You know, second stage turbine blade is the thing that my dad worked on at a blue collar factory. in Cromalo in New York.

Starting point is 00:24:25 He welded second stage turbine blades for airplanes. So my dad was a recovering heroin addict, and at that time was still using. So, you know, the dragonfly. When Bill Scoville sent me the dragonfly as like a potential image, I was like, oh, that reminds me of a syringe. That is perfect. Wow.

Starting point is 00:24:47 For, you know, for this, you know. So. So you never could have imagined that that dragonfly would get tattooed on just a billion people on the planet. I know. With that symbolism in the back. I know, right. Wow. Wow.

Starting point is 00:25:05 That's unbelievable. Yeah, so that's the thing is like, you know, so I'm trying to tell my story. Like we were saying, my dad was listened to a lot of music. You know, some people might call my mother an enabler because of his situation. But to me, they were very heroic. You know, they tried to keep this situation out. of our lives as children and you know so for me it's like I didn't want to put my story out there for people to judge sure you know I didn't want like plan oh that what's that plainly

Starting point is 00:25:34 yeah yeah I didn't want like oh that guy came from a broken home because that's not the truth I mean yeah it's got I think there's a there's definitely something broken there but like you know being an adult now and a parent I'm glad I did it the way I did because you know everyone's got their shit and things are hard this being a parent isn't easy and like, you know, so for me it's like I never wanted to villainize them. Sure. I didn't want that sort of sympathy to come my way. So that's why I sort of curated the things the way I did and, you know, and made that record so confusing. Because again, I was trying to get my legs as to like, how do I... It's sci-fi concept, but you're also talking about

Starting point is 00:26:17 driving to New Jersey. Right, yeah, totally. I would always try to wrap my round and, like, what is this New Jersey in this story? Is this real? Like, what's he talking about? And it takes, there is, there is, like, moments of that. But, like,

Starting point is 00:26:30 that New Jersey is, like, me going there to visit a friend, seeing a red door that had 666 on it. And also, like, you know, when Patrick Ewing busted his, oh, that's 33. So 33's Patrick Ewing breaking his Achilles stendil. You know, busts his kid.

Starting point is 00:26:49 So, like, things like that. It was like taking these. things that might be completely random and like trying to find a way that meant something to me you know and like finding a way to paste that into paint that into a piece of fiction how collaborative is the writing for this record I know the concept is coming from your brain but like right you have to explain it to to Travis and Josh at the time do they to this day are they like just fucking do well just tell us the lyrics I don't care what they mean teach me what

Starting point is 00:27:18 to sing yeah well at that time it was like such an infant idea like They knew when, you know, because when we signed to Equal Vision, we were still Shibouti. Yeah. And they didn't like that name. And neither did we, honestly, because it leaned more towards like a funk band or something like that. Yeah, totally. And I had made these shirts for Co-Heating Cambria. Co-Eating Cambria was actually, when I wrote Time Consumer and June Song,

Starting point is 00:27:44 I was really thinking about, like, what it would be like to do a side project. I mean, we didn't even have a band yet, but I was thinking. about like what can I to do well how can I take a programmed music I had like a MC303 groove box and I was like how do I take this and glue it to acoustic instrumentation and and that was the initial idea for co-heating camera like that was the name and then when the band got signed to equal vision we started to like they didn't like the name so we started picking other names and one of them was leader one right I Another was Paris and Flames.

Starting point is 00:28:24 Okay. And, like, none of them really gelled with me. And I had this shirt for this, like, kind of idea, this side project thing. It was, like, Coed and Cambria with the silhouette of Optimus Prime, and it was a bright yellow shirt. And, yeah. And, like, it was like a silk screen that I, like, just ironed on. And where do the names Coheed and Camber come from? Okay, so Coheed, when I was in Paris, sorry if I'm all over the place.

Starting point is 00:28:49 No, no, no. My memory is really bad. There's a lot of shit. We're going to get it all. Jumping around like crazy. That's good. So Coed was, so in Paris, when I was hanging out with my friend Nikki, we were, she was sketching. She would sketch these like little characters.

Starting point is 00:29:05 And the character she had sketched was Kobeed. Instead of the age, it was beat. Big Kobe head? Yeah, I don't know. Is that a thing? What's a Kobe head? A Kobe Bryant fan. Oh, no.

Starting point is 00:29:19 No. It was like, it was like this little angelic character, but I loved the name. And, you know, for me, in my imagination, Kohede was like Space Code name, you know, like, space code name. You know, like, so I'm like, Kobe doesn't, like, I adopted the name. I was like, if it just had like, saw, it just needs this one letter to make it feel like masculine, make it feel like, you know. Yeah, yeah. I love it. Right?

Starting point is 00:29:47 Yeah, yeah, he's eating, whatever, you know. And so that was cohed. And then Cambria was a name. I was hanging out at a party in Woodstock, New York, and I met this girl named Cambria, and I loved her name. I was like the first time I had ever heard it. And it just always stuck with me.

Starting point is 00:30:05 Does she know, do you think? Oh, yeah, I think so, yeah. And I was like, you know, when I started to piece together who these characters were going to be, when I had Coheed, you know, I was thinking in that world of like, you know, like Stan Lee,

Starting point is 00:30:20 I guess somewhere in my back, you know, Peter Parker, you know, sharing like the... Illiteration. Yeah. And it's good shit. Yeah. And then I was like, that Cambria name just stuck. And I was like, a co-eating Cambria. Those are the...

Starting point is 00:30:33 It's original. Yeah, yeah. So right away, album one, your right and left hands are doing just as much work as your voice. Right. What have you done? Do you think while writing like, oh, man, I really fuck myself here. Yeah, sometimes. I have to do this forever.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Painted into one. Are there parts that you write or that Travis writes where you start writing vocals and you're like, this isn't just not happening? Or do you find a solution? I try to find a solution because I'm going to guitar player first. And so when like that becomes, that's the first thing. Usually instrumentation is what happens before lyrics. That will, like writing something will inform a melody and then the melody will then inform the lyric. Of course, whatever idea I might be experiencing will help also influence that.

Starting point is 00:31:22 But for the most part, it's instrumentation. And at that time, it was guitar. I didn't have anything else aside from that, like 303. So are you just doing writing songs entirely and then figuring out vocals later? Pretty much. But at the time, I also had a cassette four track. Okay, cool. So you could demo yourself.

Starting point is 00:31:39 Yeah, and I would use that to, that actually, I think, was like, the thing that taught me how to write songs. Because, you know, I'd get to a part and maybe not be able to figure out how to get into the next thing. And so I'd have to sit there and try to punch it in. Because I didn't even have the pedal. I'd have to, like, it was a Vostex X-8-H. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this. But it's like, but yeah, so I'd have to like, you know, the punches were awful. But, like, there were enough for me to hear.

Starting point is 00:32:07 You know. But, yeah, so that's, so I would do things like that. But, I mean, I, like I said, I'm a guitar player first. like and I mean that just like that was the instrument that I took on first and and I want to respect that. Coed is certified guitar music so well right on yeah it is what it is the second second stage is your first album of 11 you still play songs from this record and I think any band with 11 records that is still playing debut record to fanfare means you did a pretty good damn job I saw you at the Greek recently everything evil

Starting point is 00:32:44 was in the set. Oh, right. The melody. That was the first time, the melody that happens in the end with the little piano that recurs through the entire co-heed discography. What does that melody mean to you? Where did it come from? Is there like a lore aspect behind it to when

Starting point is 00:33:06 we're hearing it in specific songs? You know, it's yes. I mean, it's always like a reoccurring thing, but like it's funny. We were in the studio and Josh and I it was Josh and I and he started playing it and I was like that is the Josh wrote that yeah good job yeah I was like that is the theme um and so uh yeah and so like I remember just being so excited um and then it was like that it has to reoccur yeah and it does you know like even like we played the broken last night the guitar song like a broken guitar soul like broken guitar so it was like it's always

Starting point is 00:33:43 there. It's, you know, it's one of our favorite things. Recurring stuff. I love the bolt-throw motif. Come on. It's just like the bolt-throw motif. So let's see. Is the rest of the man contributing creatively to the narrative ever? Not really. I mean, every once in a while, like last record, Travis threw out an idea. He just threw out the name Shadow Lifters. And I was like, yeah, like that. I was like, that could be something. But it was, yeah, it was just like a word, you know, it's tough. Like the concept, when I brought the concept up back then, second stage, I mean, it was like, no one really thought this was going to be a thing.

Starting point is 00:34:27 Inside the band? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, me, that's definitely something I wanted to do. Sure. Because I needed to do it. If I was going to express myself honestly in the songs, I was going to need this disguise that hide behind. Interesting.

Starting point is 00:34:39 So I've been a fan of the band for almost 25 years. I rarely know what you're talking about Yeah I rarely know what I'm talking about To do this to figure out What you're talking about Honestly it's really fun This record brought

Starting point is 00:34:54 So many walks of life together Like hardcore kids loved it The emo kids loved it Which lumped you lumped into emo World for a while The pop punk people loved it The Prague heads start to notice What you're doing

Starting point is 00:35:06 Were you conscious of that At the time of just seeing The different kind of walks of life That were at starting to go to your shows? No. Okay. I mean, I mean, I want that for sure.

Starting point is 00:35:20 I just, when we started going, when we actually started touring, it was just such a shock to me that people were even coming that I didn't know, I don't think I even recognized who. Who was who? Who was who? Yeah, yeah. It was just like, oh, wow, you're going to let us sleep at your house. That's fucking crazy. Yeah. First tour was with Thursday?

Starting point is 00:35:43 The first tour we ever did was with Breaking Pangea. Fred Mascherino's band. I know from there. I know Pangea. He played, he plays guitar in Taking Back Sunday. Oh, okay, yeah, you're right. The singer, he can sing his ass off too. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:59 And so he, so his first band, break, I don't know if it's his first band, but they took us out. That was our first tour, you know, and that Thursday ended up taking us out. Jeff told a story on stage last night about your gear being so bad on that tour that they just gave you all theirs to use.

Starting point is 00:36:20 Yeah. Oh, to use. Like two years. Okay, cool. Do you remember what you brought up? Yes. It was like a solid state. Both Travis and I had these like matching fender solid state

Starting point is 00:36:33 like cabs and heads. If I remember correctly, if this is the gear that they're talking about, Maybe this gear is good to them now. I don't know. I think they're still Marshall guys. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that was that.

Starting point is 00:36:47 I had this big muff that I had in high school that I used a bunch. And I started to bleed on it, like I think in the Pangia run. And it was a nice, like, 70s era of muff. I still have it. We cloned it not too long ago. But I put it aside because I was like, you know what? like I don't want this thing to get damaged because you know we're traveling in the van

Starting point is 00:37:09 whatever so we ended up rocking like metal zones right metal zones are all right they did not like the metal zones old faithful they did not like the metal zones that is a cannibal corpse all the years right up there's a

Starting point is 00:37:25 there's a folklore urban legend that one of the first shows if not the first show as Cohen Cambria was with bulldoze from New York Oh, yes, we did play with Bulldoze. We did. How'd that go?

Starting point is 00:37:40 There was a fight. Oh, you don't say? Yeah. During Coed or during Bulldoz? It was after the show. Okay. There was a situation that had, like, accidentally happened. Sure, sure.

Starting point is 00:37:58 And the knives were pulled. Oh, dear. A fight was happening, and it was wild. Okay. I mean, you know, it was scary. Josh got in a car and at the time didn't drive and, like, backed up into another car. It was nuts, man. I don't know how much detail I should get into.

Starting point is 00:38:16 But the co-heed bulldoze lore. It's true. But they were cool. They liked our man. And then, like, something went south. Sure, sure. Mike, shut on Mike. Surely listening in a lot.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Oh, no. He'll be psyched. He's awesome. Sighted. Touring on second stage after. after this Thursday stuff, you're writing for In Keeping Secrets at the same time? Is that how that's working? Or do you stop and okay? Because it came out a year later.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Yo, that's crazy. We were touring four second stage and opening with the song In Keeping Secrets. Like that stuff was already like on its way. Yeah. You're opening with an eight minute unreleased song. Yeah. You're crazy, man. But it's good. Wow, that's awesome.

Starting point is 00:39:02 Yeah. In 2002, you started working with Blaze as your manager. Yes. And he's still here to this day. He is. He helps set this up. Thank you, Blaze. Thank you, Blaise. Tell me about your relationship with Blaze. I love Blaze.

Starting point is 00:39:12 Blaze is my brother. My buddy, my wife might say he might be my daddy. Wow. You know, like, but no, I do. I love Blaze. He's a straight, honest, like, that's what I liked about him. When I first met Blaze, first off, okay, so I have a wacky imagination, right? Okay.

Starting point is 00:39:33 You? And his name is Blaze. Right, exactly. So I hear Blaise. So anyway, back in high school or like, and coming out of high school, like, you know, I got introduced at the driving, right? Like, I think it was out of high school. In casino, a friend of mine gave it to me. And I didn't understand it when I first listened to it.

Starting point is 00:39:54 And he was like, well, we got to go see him. So we went and we saw him in the city. I can't remember if it was brownies, the Continental. or the Wayne Firehouse. I can't, it was like one of those spots. And I was like, holy shit, this band looks like a bunch of me's on stage. You know what I mean? I'm like, you know, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:40:14 Like, you know, I get that stuff a lot sometimes from like, you know, like, you know, fans that are like, you know, Puerto Rican, Spanish, whatever have you. And it's like, and I'm like, and I'm touched by it because, you know, I kind of had that feeling when I saw it at the driving. You know, I was like. And I was like, oh, I get it now. You know? Representation is like not, it's a real thing. It's for real. Your hair has evolved into like a symbol of power.

Starting point is 00:40:39 Not just for you, but your audience as well. Right. I've never seen Kohede without a big curly-headed dude front row. Yeah, right, right. And like that's a beautiful thing. I read a review of No World for Tomorrow. There's a whole paragraph about your hair. And it's not even about the director.

Starting point is 00:40:55 It has nothing to do with No World for Tomorrow. That's sometimes a big problem, man. It's a living thing. Yeah, but yeah, I loved it so much. I got so into the band because, you know, again, yeah, you kind of see representation, like you're saying. I kind of finally see myself, like, you know, in a performance, you know. And I was like, and so that band really holds a special place in my heart because of the moment. And that register he's singing at.

Starting point is 00:41:21 Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like I said, I was like, I'm like, I'm looking at what could possibly happen. And so I look at the record and I see Navigator Blaise James and I'm like, oh man, those guys are wacky. Who the fuck is that dude? You know what I mean? And so I'm thinking, you know, I see the satellite dishes on the cover and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:41:41 this guy must live in an airstream in the middle of New Mexico, like satellite dish, you know, veered, dusty. And then I met him and I was disappointed. No, it was not that person. I'm not a nice guy. No. We hear all the time and our. have related to reading liner notes reading the thank yous and albums and

Starting point is 00:42:01 finding new bands to discover you're telling me you met him because you saw on their record yeah so so manifestation yeah but like I saw but look you know at that time you know the band is like getting there's like steam behind us and like now management is coming out of the woodwork you know and so we met a bunch of managers all really nice but um you know when Blaze hit me up I was like holy shit it's It's like, at the drive. Oh, yeah, you are? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:30 And then, um, and so when we met, he just, of everybody, he just felt like the, um, the most honest. Not that no one wasn't honest, but you know what I mean? Like, this guy is going to tell me. You know, you know. You know. You know. And it's been 23 years, so. So, so.

Starting point is 00:42:47 You knew something. Before we move on to In Keeping Secrets, totally. Do you ever, like the first cruise, you did second stage all the way through? Is that true? I believe so. Okay. My memory is terrible. dusting up on that, is there a moment where you're like, how the fuck did I do it?

Starting point is 00:43:01 How did I write? How did this guy version of me write these songs? Oh, like me now. I write those? Yeah, because there's a huge disconnect. Like last night playing Good Apollo 1, I'm like, damn, man. It's like, how many times I'm going to see these nasty words? Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, how the hell am I like, I can't get down with this guy and I wrote this shit?

Starting point is 00:43:22 Well, luckily he's a fictional guy. Exactly. That's wild look at that. A good escape. Yeah. Well, that's the thing, right? So at that time, not to jump around, and we'll get back to the other. But like, I think of that, you know, at that time, that's when I start letting people know that this is all coming from a real place.

Starting point is 00:43:36 Because that record is so much about heartbreak. Yeah. That it's, like, hard to disguise it, like, in the fiction. So it's like, okay, now I'm going to have to show that there is a writer and his feelings are directly influencing the characters in the story. The writing, right? That writer that's writing. Yeah. I got it.

Starting point is 00:43:54 Wow. I'm familiar. In keeping secrets. Silent Earth, three, one of my favorite records of all time. Is the three titling? Are you doing a New Hope episode four type thing? Is that the-yes? Okay. Every record has a, in that part of the Amory Wars, has a numeric value.

Starting point is 00:44:12 Year of the Black Rainbow being year singular for one. Second stage, second, and keeping three, Silent Earth three, and then the fours with the volumes. But yeah, it's like hiding the numeric value in the title. Are you storyboarding this whole thing? No, no. You're going on. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:28 Like, sometimes when I go back and I try to put these things in, like, I realize there's a lot of holes. Sure. Because I'm writing, again, it's, the thing that's coming first is the thing I'm experiencing in the moment. And that's informing the fiction. But, like, you know, I'm just taking my life and transforming it,

Starting point is 00:44:48 you know, translating it into this thing. And sometimes I don't think about the things that happened before. And, you know, I mean, I have a broader idea. Sure. But like, but then when I go back, like, for example, right now, we're trying to, um, we're trying to adapt these things in, in novels, right? Yeah, and like, really nuance, like, get more nuance out of the novelizations. So you got to go back and add details.

Starting point is 00:45:09 Yeah, and we're finding that there's like, oh, there's some things here that how does this work? And like, okay, well, let's go back and let's, like, figure out, re-read this and... How you see why these Game of Thrones books take so down the line. Oh, yeah. Or, and Star Wars. That's, again, Star Wars. That makes total sense. They fuck shit up all the time.

Starting point is 00:45:28 So in Keeping Secrets comes out one year after second stage. Unbelievable. Does your writing approach change, even though the time frame is kind of the same? I think so, because now we're actually writing a record. Yeah. It's not just a collection of that. Yeah, it's right. Something I noticed, and I've always noticed about Keeping Secrets,

Starting point is 00:45:47 is how bridge forward it is. Bridge forward? There's a lot of bridges. There's payoff. And every song has a... an explosion that you gotta get to. So important. Do you ever start with those and then work around them,

Starting point is 00:46:01 or is it all kind of sequential? I think it's all sequential, because at that time, a big part of why the songs were so long was not that I was consciously thinking progressive music. I was just not getting to the point. Okay. Or what I thought was the point. Yeah, and that's why you have those songs like

Starting point is 00:46:20 three evils where it's almost like two songs in one, you know? Right, like you get these songs that are like one song, then all of a sudden it changes into another song. And then you get the beautiful, pull the trigger on The Nightmare Stop. Right, right. Every song ends with a memorable thing that you got to, like, earn your way to,

Starting point is 00:46:40 which is what makes a constantly replayable album experience. So it's like what you unlocked there, it was crazy to me even then. As a tween listening to this record every day and playing Knights of the Old Republic at the same time. Oh, right. And I didn't know about the sci-fi element of it. They just felt right together.

Starting point is 00:47:04 You figured something out here. Oh, that's sick. And it's good to know that it was intentional that you were... Maybe not saying, oh, they got to get to this, but you're saying, I haven't gotten this. Yeah, right. You're finding your point. Yeah, very cool.

Starting point is 00:47:19 Resolution. Resolving all the melodies. Tell me about the response to the record and the growth at the time, because it's got to be... It was well received. I think it was like number two out of five, like, indie records and Rolling Stone.

Starting point is 00:47:36 That's what's that. You know? I never got that number one. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think of the year. Like, there was like, you know... I remember being really proud of that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:48 You know, because it's like, oh, wow, this is, like, crazy that, you know... You're on EBR. Right, right, right. Yeah, right. Rolling Stone was talking about it. It's crazy. Yeah, that record is very special to me, because yeah, it was.

Starting point is 00:48:04 It was like the first time we were like making a record. We were in a studio and that was the goal. Is it the same two producers as second stage? Well, so second stage, when we did second stage, we actually did it in a bedroom in New Jersey. Okay. The actual recording was done by a fellow by the name Jason DeSage. named Jason DeZuzio. He had a studio called Stained Glass Studios in New Jersey,

Starting point is 00:48:28 and it was really just his bedroom in his parents' house. But he had like a setup. And then when we went to mix it, we asked our friends Mike and Chris out of Applehead in Woodside, New York. But they were like, if we're going to mix it, we'd like to get the production credit. And they were doing us a favor,

Starting point is 00:48:48 so we were like, okay, well, I guess we didn't really have anybody producing the recordists. songs themselves. No, no. The way it sounded. Yeah, I see. So they... And keeping secrets, does that change in terms of their contributions? Yeah, they're there. I mean, you know, in terms of contributions, it's like, the songs were there. Okay. You know, the arrangements, you know, every once in a while, somebody will give it an arrangement idea, but for the most part, like, the things as a band. Yeah, the things is a band, yeah, Sonic, tonal sort of thing, but the things is a band,

Starting point is 00:49:20 that's all co- that's the band members you know you know the one thing we didn't bring up this is being a hardcore thing is that Dr. No played on the first song I know I totally haven't and that's like the only feature on any Co-Heed record. Holy shit really yeah he played the first song he played the solo that's so cool the only guy

Starting point is 00:49:40 to ever guest on a Coheed record is Doctor No from Badman yeah and song one why wow how so here's so I'm sorry I know I just remember this. I'm like, oh, shit. So back when I was in Shibouti, I would go up, I would take the bus up from my town up the through way

Starting point is 00:50:01 to go play in the band, you know, in like these, like the bars. The bar at the time was called Joyous Lake. And remember this one moment in particular, because I got there early. And at the time I was underage, but the bartenders knew who I was because of the band in town. And I sit at the bar. And I'm just like, you know, waiting.

Starting point is 00:50:22 I have my guitar and this fellow sitting next to me. And he's like, he's like, and I think I had like a deaf tone sticker. At the time, like around the fur was like the shit. Like here or like. And so like, and my man was like, you like the deaf tones? And I'm like, yeah, I like the deaf tones. He's like, he's like, I'm, like, I'm like, I'm pioneered hardcore.

Starting point is 00:50:41 I was like, oh, shit. I was like, damn. I thought he was like, just kind of like this like, wacky, like, county guy, you know? But it turned out it was Doc. And he had worked up there And he was good friends with Mike Burnbaum that

Starting point is 00:50:55 operated the studio up there So when we were doing mixing second stage That was the thing that Mike had brought up He was like hey, you know Why don't we get Doc to play on On this song? You know, we're like, oh yeah That would be fun

Starting point is 00:51:09 Are you a big quickness guy? I like quickness I'm a big eye against eye guy Yeah That's Ah That's We celebrate the

Starting point is 00:51:20 Bad long, for sure. Big time, big time, yeah, but that's cool. Big quickness guy, big guy inside guy. This is unbelievable. Tell me about touring on In Keeping Secrets. How much does that evolve? Does it feel different? I mean, now we're getting better amplifiers,

Starting point is 00:51:36 but it's not like the major, you know, things really change when good Apollo happens. Because then, you know, in keeping secrets, we're still in a van. That's what I was going to ask, yeah. Yeah, I don't think they honestly. when I say that things really changed I mean I think go to Apollo we were still in a van like it took us a long time to get to a bus like the E350 what's that E4d E350 or what's E 4355 Ford E350 the

Starting point is 00:52:01 Econa line Jesus yeah you see you know 15 pass in there yeah we're all huh we're all working with the song no bandwagon back no bad too I don't think there's just a big jump from a van to a bus yeah about that but yeah not much has not much changes like it's you know we're in a van you know maybe maybe we're getting offered like cooler slots but he still stayed in the people's houses i think that's still kind of happening you know when does like the fandom happen yeah like the the co-heed guy is a is a type of guy now i'm to coheed gal you know right when does that happen i think that takes a while okay yeah because it gets because you know there's a time where coheed fans were not as beautiful as they are

Starting point is 00:52:47 I do. Like, there was a time, I remember we had secret machines opening for us and people were like booing them or the Blood Brothers and people were booing them. And like,

Starting point is 00:52:55 like, their hearts are as beautiful, you know? Yeah, like, we're like, and now it's like, it is such a different

Starting point is 00:53:01 audience than it was. Like it's, it's, the clown on those crews is getting a standing ovation. You know? As he should. You know?

Starting point is 00:53:08 It's unbelievable. Because there's, what are, what are other similar fandoms? Non-derogatorily, you have juggalo's. Juggalo's, yeah,

Starting point is 00:53:15 like they'll watch hate, green and they'll be pit the rest of. Deadheads. You know? Yeah. Yeah. There's stuff like that. It's a deadhead-esque. Yeah. I like to think of as like a punk rock dead. That's cool. Okay. It's unbelievable. Man your own jackhammer. No longer just a lyric. Part of this interruption, you know, we hate to stop you from enjoying this incredible episode, but we got to tell you about something. We really do. What do we got? This episode is brought to you for the very first time by Dundable Gachian. Oh my God. Look at that boy. Donable guitars are the guitars for heavy music.

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Starting point is 00:55:42 Keep going. Keep going. I believe. They saw all the pubic hair left behind on shore that was trimmed off with Manscape Lawnmore 5.0s. It's unbelievable. It really is. I don't believe it. Tell me, Colin,

Starting point is 00:55:57 if people use our code, what do they get? They get 15% off on free shipping sitewide. I'm not laughing. This is not a joke. This is very serious. Look at my face. So, whack the weeds, the nose hairs that you're now growing because you're getting old and you're starting to look like your father. You're starting to look

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Starting point is 00:56:56 Tell me about creating the Jackhammer and evil instruments with my beloved Sasha Dunnable. Oh, so I, you know, I've been wanting, I've been playing less, uh, explorers for so long and like, had, at some point that it may be like one day I'd get my own, but it just never happened, you know. And so I was on a flight to Florida to visit my in-laws, and I just started collaging it on an app in my phone called Union. It's basically like a Photoshop layering kind of crop.

Starting point is 00:57:29 I use one called GoDaddy Studio. Yeah. Same thing. Same thing. I'm going to check it out. Check it out. Check it out. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:57:36 That's what all our thumb, that formally called over. Yeah. Go on. And that's what I did. I just kind of bashed it together or collaged it together from, you know, using the L. elements of guitars that I'd used in the past. Like when Kobe was first touring, I was using an SG and then eventually moved to the Explorer.

Starting point is 00:57:56 And then I found an E2 in Cincinnati and Mike's music one time, like on Warped Tour actually. It was like crushed between like an amp-peg 8x8 by 12, like just smashed. Wow. Yeah, and I was like, oh wow, that's the coolest explorer I've ever seen. And like, and I got and so I took those three, you know, and just kind of bashed them together. or collage them like and and I came up with that body type and you know I sent it over to like my guitar tech at the time and I was like hey is this something you think you can like get me like some kind of prototype you know and and he sent me something and you worked for one song

Starting point is 00:58:36 but it was enough for me to be like oh wow this thing can kind of come alive and so I started to talk with with Sasha about like you know making it real yeah Like how can we do this and and yeah and here we are now. They can't keep them on the shelves. Yeah they yeah we sold out of the first run and I just put it in an order for another one. Okay, and different color ways. Like so we started with the, um, you got three right?

Starting point is 00:59:01 Yeah, we did the walnut which is very much mimics the E2 and then we did a black and white But now we're gonna do we're gonna do those again, but we'll also you know, we're gonna do a pink one which I'm really excited for. Cool, but yeah we got a couple other color ways Yeah, at the Greek show, you used all three. I did, yeah. And by the, you propagandized me. By the end, I was like, if I don't get this thing, something bad is going to happen. Do you like your guitars heavier or lighter?

Starting point is 00:59:29 I like them heavy. I like them heavy, yeah. Yeah, so the walnut is where you want to go, because the walnuts is heavier. I need a walnut jackhammer. I know I've seen pictures of you or videos of you using it before, but you pulled out that double neck SG, the white one. Yeah. It's a cool guitar. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:47 know when I wrote Welcome Home, I clearly knew that, you know, the Led Zeppelin cashmere influence was in there. And so as an homage, I was like, yeah, that's the dark, that's my shit. That is the dark horse Led Zeppelin single, I think. Oh, hell yeah, dude. That is like their song, more so than Stereway or anything. Right. But yeah, so that I could see that, that tying in there. Yeah, so I was like, you know what, what better way to homage that? then to like, you know, let me rip the guitar of that page. Is that in any kind of crazy tuning like Cash Rears? No, no, it's all standard, yeah.

Starting point is 01:00:24 Standard across the board for the Coyahy of the Skog? No. Standard, half step downs. All of Good Apollo 1 is half step down. Standard, drop Ds, 8-string guitars come out. Baratone 8-strings on, like, Gravity's Union, and, like, bad man, Love Murder 1. baritone guitar

Starting point is 01:00:49 now when you write these songs do you tell your tech about them you're like hey man I'm sorry to do this we're adding one more oh they don't mind okay totally so the production on

Starting point is 01:01:02 in keeping secrets I really want to talk about because it's some of my it's like I love the way it sounds it's very the drums are raw and natural right and the guitar is like there's it's warm it's again very natural it borderline sounds

Starting point is 01:01:17 like a punk record sonically. It's very real. Right. Is this something you're happy with at the time? You know, I just, again, I think I was so in shock that we're doing this stuff, that I left that in the hands of our producers. I mean, when I listen back to it, you know, I hear all that. Yeah. But I also am like, God damn, what would it sound like if, you know, if we really like, you know. I think it's such a big part of the charm. That's awesome.

Starting point is 01:01:47 I mean, that's... It's like Evil Dead 1 and 2 in Keeping Secrets to Good Apollo. Right, you know? It's like a different thing. And the Army of Darts is coming right around the corner. Oh, ho. I love that.

Starting point is 01:01:59 I got those are my jams. You know, the first co-heed show we ever played was we had Evil Dead 2 playing behind us. The first show ever? First show ever. Was that like Stubs? Completely unrelated to anecdotes. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:10 It was like Stubbs, someplace in Kingston. I think it was called Stubbs. And they had a screen behind us, I was like, oh shit, they have a screenbynus. We were like, we should play Evil Dead behind us. Wow, I had no idea. Damn, I nailed that.

Starting point is 01:02:23 I only have a couple more things. Okay, let's see. Can you, as, again, I'm a big cogey guy, I rarely know what the lyrics are about. Could you, in 60 seconds or less, summarize the plot synopsis of Inkeeping Secrets? Of Inkeeping? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:42 You know, when I think about the actual record of Inkeeping Secrets, and I probably can't. But I think it's me like falling into who I am. Okay. You know, and like, oh, I'm realizing that I am now

Starting point is 01:02:55 this person in this band, how do I express myself? How do I do this? How do I really do this with both a concept tag to it and my life needing to be expressed in these songs? And you've said many times

Starting point is 01:03:10 this is the first, like, complete record writing experience start to finish. So that makes a lot of sense? Yeah. Like, like, when I think of the light in the glass, for example, like, light in the glass, like... Beautiful song. ...is about...

Starting point is 01:03:21 So that song truly is about getting in a van, going out, and getting a call that my dad is dead. Oh. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, the end is just, your father's dead. He passed in his sleep. It's like, you know, it's just like these realizations that we are now leaving home. And at the time, we didn't have the connections we do now. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:41 You know, so it's like... And not that he was sick. It was just like, you know, the... the realization of death like coming, and I was still kind of young, and so were they. But, like, you know, I just didn't want to be surprised by that idea, so I would write these songs that would get me prepared for it. Wow. I never would have put that together.

Starting point is 01:03:59 Does that, like, thematically play into the gap between that and 2113? 2113 is, you know, I don't really know what 2113 is. I'm completely honest. Like, because of the rush thing, and at this time I have... It's the Pragueist thing. You're like, all right, fine, fuckers. Yeah. And at this time, I still haven't listened to Rush.

Starting point is 01:04:23 Okay. You know, I'm still, like, avoiding it. Yeah. But I'm like, fuck it. We're gonna... And, you know, that was like the bonus track. So it never... It wasn't printed on the record at the time, I think, as 213.

Starting point is 01:04:34 I can't remember it. Yeah. Did that just come... Did you title that? Or did it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:39 Because it was 21 minutes and 13 seconds after the silence or something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, but we had to be like, you know, it's the consecutive number of 21-12, right? So it's like, let's just lean into it and we did. And I think that song, like, there was like most of it, but then we just sort of sort of just trying to figure it out to get it like, just squeeze it on the record somehow. You know? It's a crazy song. Oh, yeah, I'm glad you liked that out.

Starting point is 01:05:08 Crazy. It's an adventure. Something I've always wondered, the crowing breakdown. Okay. You popped off with that one. Yeah, which, which breakdown. Gaggedagged, Gagin, Gagin, Gagin, Gagin, Gagin, Gagin, Gagin, Gat and get back. What's going on there?

Starting point is 01:05:25 So, that's when I'm like, there's a dark entity in this man's mind. Shit, I mean, we do have that guitar, but I'm not entirely sure I can, like, remember, like, had it. Well, it's real. So, let me see, let me see, let me see what I'm saying? Yeah, talk to me. I'm just going to do it. Talk to me. Oh, see, I don't even remember it.

Starting point is 01:05:48 It's insane. Right, so there's that. So it's like a diminished arpeggio and like, oh yeah, you're inside. Right? So it's like, so when I, so here's the thing, it's like, so this diminished arpeggio form. So I never really, I took a couple of guitar lessons, but as a kid, and when I took, when I took them, like, you know, they were like teaching me like songs and I didn't really want to learn songs. I wanted to know like more theory-minded stuff. Oh, really? And not that I could read, but I wanted to know scales.

Starting point is 01:06:24 I was writing music. I didn't want to just like rip, like Jimmy Hendrix or stuff, you know? So my teacher, the first thing he gives me is a diminished arpeggio. So it gave you this incredible tool. Yeah, which, but like, but what I remember telling a friend of, yeah, I was told a friend of mine, and they were like, that's the first thing they don't know. Yeah, that's crazy. You know? But yeah, it's just, and then there's this open thing.

Starting point is 01:06:54 Just the hammer on. Yeah, so. Ah. Excellent. Outstanding. Got it live, motherfucker. What,

Starting point is 01:07:12 but like, what's the goal there? Because that's, like, are you writing that for people to beat ass to? That's ass-beaten music. No,

Starting point is 01:07:19 well, maybe. I mean, I think for me, it's like, you know, the crowing is such a, a visual song to me.

Starting point is 01:07:26 You know, it's like, it's, um, I think, like, I hear that, da-na,

Starting point is 01:07:32 da-na, da-na, you know I I think cinematically yeah you know like so it's it's very much like the pictures that are being drawn I mean it's such a confusing song um in terms of like who my identity you know when I think of like the crowing and like you know dear ambilina the prize you know it's like this person coming to help me become a better you know my wife and I've been together for a very long time you know and like and I've always wanted a connection to somebody that could make me you know complete like make me course, you know, ground me. And so that's like what that is.

Starting point is 01:08:07 It's like through all the chaos of this lifestyle that I'm now learning to live in, I just wish there was somebody to help anchor me in the real. Here's a cool thing. I don't know if you saw, if you're a big Stranger Things guy at all. Yeah, yeah, I can get down. So my friend's wedding went super viral recently because Joe, Kierry, from Stranger Things, officiated it. Oh, I saw that.

Starting point is 01:08:29 The groom, Matt, my very good friend, plays in a band called Post Animal. walked out to the crow. Get out of town. So he's going to love... Yeah, he'll love that. Hi, Matt. This is cool. So sick. So as someone who has spin kicked someone's head off to Kohi...

Starting point is 01:08:46 The... I've done it. I'm sorry. Castle Heights, E.G.H. It's me. The big mosh parts are kind of like scarcely thrown into the... to the discography tastefully, I feel like. And now I see, like, that's not... intentional, they just, you feel it when you feel it.

Starting point is 01:09:06 Right. But I see how excited Josh is every time he gets to ride the China. So I know they're in there deep down. Is holding off on doing these kind of like mega hard parts like that intentional or is it just they come when they come? Yeah, I think it's just kind of when they come. You're serving the song. Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 01:09:29 Always. I mean that's, you know, again, like when I think of a song like crowing, crowing is, you is very much like is in that format of two songs in one, you know? And a lot of the stuff that's in between, like moments like that, are just enough to help me, you know, visualize the answer. You know, like, I think of like the beginning, you know, dan, eh, you know, it's like it's all questions being posed, you know, until we get the big release, the resolve, the answer at the back end.

Starting point is 01:10:01 And it's big pit. Right. Yeah, there you go. What do you think is the heaviest music you're a fan of? So the heaviest music that I'm a fan of. Like actively, you're like, yeah, I'm going to put some suffocation on it. I did. That's funny that you say suffocation.

Starting point is 01:10:19 Effigy of the Forgotten is the one that I... That's hilarious that you just called that. So, no, so there was a... I had a brief moment in my teenage... years where effigy of the forgotten and obituaries cause of death were the things that I would go to sleep to oh you're sick yeah and the Bash brothers yeah I knew it but yeah that's you know so so there are those like moments and there was a moment where I was very like you got some effigy in the crawling I

Starting point is 01:10:58 knew it wow god damn it what was revisiting this right like for the second cruise playing this whole thing this one the good Apollo the no the in keeping secrets I guess I guess we have we have quite moved on no you're like in keeping secrets on the last cruise you did that start to finish wish I could have seen that one is that is this another time where you look back and you're like damn this is this is special yeah I do I mean I think all of them are because they are really these like capsules of the my moment in time you know it Good Apollo, like, or excuse me, in keeping, it's like kind of the years I met my wife,

Starting point is 01:11:35 she came out to the studio, she was like sleeping in the loft area while I was downstairs singing in the room and like, you know, singing songs like The Crowing, you know, it's just like, it's very special. All of these records, regardless, even as I say, you know, go to Apollo when I hear those, you know, I didn't know how to process love at that time, you know what I mean? I was a idiot and I, you know, I could have chosen my, words better but I was also like that's our angry and mad and and again I didn't know how to process it and that's why it made it what it is and you know and and helped inform a really cool part of the story so every record is like so

Starting point is 01:12:15 important and so special to me sometimes it's like it is it's great to go back and listen like I don't listen to this stuff like all the time like the other day I listened to the color before the sun and it just got me like in a way that I I was like, wow. And then another day I listened to Unheavenly Creatures, and some of the songs on there, I was like, did I even write this? What the fuck is this song? You know?

Starting point is 01:12:37 I was like, I was like... Color before the sun is the only non-concept record, right? Yeah. And, dude, here to Mars, that's like one of the most beautiful love songs of the century. Thanks, man. I met the woman. It's about that. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:50 Oh, wow. Unbelievable. Check it out. Great song. Good Apollo, Volume 1. Same production team. Yep. Different.

Starting point is 01:12:57 Same engineers, same everything. Yep, Chris Bittner, Michael Burnbound, yep. Different result. Massive record, it's crystal clear, drums are explosive, guitars are heavier, you got recurring melodies and parts, like we talked about earlier. Tell me about crafting your major label debut here. So now there's more money.

Starting point is 01:13:19 Like the guitars are getting like delivered to, you know, I remember when we got like a tailor delivery and it was like boxes upon boxes, we were like, what the hell is it? You can do that? Yeah, yeah. It was. It was different. Matt Penfield was involved.

Starting point is 01:13:33 So we had Matt, you know, who to us, he was our A&R. Oh, okay. So he would come up. Interesting. I met him today, too. First thing he said. Great shirt. Oh, hell yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:45 How about that? We got another one. Richie. They're out there. But yeah, they were, he, so it was just like, you know, now's a chance to really put, you know, In my mind, I'm always trying to attain the thing that feels like really creative and wacky like Sergeant Pepper. So it's like, how do we get, you know, strings involved? Yeah, play the unplayable.

Starting point is 01:14:11 Right, right. And this one, what was really nice about this, and I don't know if you guys know, the Carl Berger was the fellow that arranged the strings on Good Apollo, who also had done Jeff Buckley's Grace. Oh, man. No kidding. We just talked about it. Just talked about them.

Starting point is 01:14:28 Masterpiece. Yeah. The one and only. Yeah, and he lived up in Woodstock. So we got to knowing him. And he would come and he, subsequent records like Afterman and anything we had done up there, Incheon, Unhevillian Creatures, things that had been done up there. He just passed away.

Starting point is 01:14:46 That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Wow. But yeah, he had done that. So, yeah, so things like that get to become a reality for us. And so you write, when you finish writing Welcome Home Home, Is there, do you have a moment as a band of just like, we've done it?

Starting point is 01:15:03 We did. Well, here, check this out. I wrote Welcome Home and I was still living in my parents' house at this time. So I wrote it- That'll get you out of there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like my grandfather and I, we shared like the basement apartment of this house. And so I would, you know, right, you know, I'd live there for a while.

Starting point is 01:15:24 I mean, I'm like 25 maybe at this time, you know, I'm old, I'm the guy that, you know, I'm the guy that's like you know but I I people are like wow that guy's never gonna leave that house you know you know but but like so so anyway I'm down there and it really made no sense we were touring so much yeah like to like go and like waste my money so so anyway I'm in the kitchen area I'm in my boxers I got an acoustic guitar it's a small kitchen area like it's like a closet and I'm sitting on the floor and I'm creating this that riff and I finish the song and get the kind of melody and I'm like

Starting point is 01:15:57 like, holy shit, this song is the shit. Like, I got a feeling. You feel it. Yeah, yeah. My mother comes down, she's like, what the fuck? And she's like ready to do laundry in the water. She's like, this guy's a little, what is wrong with this kid? Wow.

Starting point is 01:16:12 Who's not a kid, who's an adult now? Are you? But you did have that feeling. Are you playing the pinch harmonics on the acoustic? I probably, I probably was, but, you know. But yeah, that was all on acoustic guitar. But as a band, like when we got together and we started playing it as a band and started arranging it as a band and thinking of strings and stuff like that, we were like, okay, this has got to be grand. Yeah, big time.

Starting point is 01:16:37 And it was. And let me ask you, out of all your accomplishments, 11 studio albums, three cruises, numerous awards, number 69 in guitar world's greatest guitar albums of all time. Where does having this song in Fortnite rank in your list of personal accomplishments? It's got to be high. It's high because Fortnite's the only game I Twitch. Really? No shit? You're a streamer?

Starting point is 01:17:02 I do not, I don't keep VODs up, but I do do random switch streams. Drops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got to squat up, man. Yeah. Oh, okay. I'll see you out there. That's the game I...

Starting point is 01:17:15 After the Simpson season, because it's brutal. Oh, is it, really? I haven't even had a chance to mess with anything. But, but dude, like, for... Honestly, I mean, that's there. would rank higher than that is to get the characters in it. Yeah, I need a Claudio skin. Oh, I want to put the cards on the story.

Starting point is 01:17:32 Oh, the emerald. Yeah, we'll get those two. I need to see that hair falling out of the battle bus. The process of handing them a song has to be insane because you can change the key and tempo of any instrument. Oh, you can? It gets like that. You can mix it with any song.

Starting point is 01:17:50 Yeah, it's crazy. Oh, that's pretty cool. I did not realize that. I just go in there. I'll show you. I got it. I purchased Welcome Home with my V-Buck, so I'll show you how to do it. Did Good Apollo go platinum?

Starting point is 01:18:02 Oh, yeah, I think it just, yeah. That's what said. Congrats. Wow, congrats. Congrats. That's crazy. This seemed like a beast to tackle and relearn to perform all at once. I feel like I saw brief moments.

Starting point is 01:18:16 As a musician, I saw moments of frustration on your face. I was like, fuck. Yeah, I couldn't hear a mistake because you're good. but are you are you hard on yourself while performing in general? Uh Yes and no Yes, I am I am

Starting point is 01:18:32 Because I want it to be good I want it I don't want to ruin Singing the way I do is like It's scary sometimes Because if I do it the wrong way I could like blow my voice And then I compromise I'm fucked right now Yeah are you really

Starting point is 01:18:47 Oh I'm compromised Yeah I'm compliment I'm compliment But you know what I mean How do you maintain that? What are your tricks? Body mapping.

Starting point is 01:18:59 What the fuck is that? Well, it's, body mapping is just a, it's a new thing I've learned in terms of, like, how you get the air in here, how you feel the air, how you, you know, how it gets out of your throat and trying not to use your throat, you know, just allowing the air to pass. I see you doing all kinds. You're changing body positions for certain vowels. Yeah, so that's body mapping. I think so.

Starting point is 01:19:22 So I saw a doctor in Nashville just to kind of get some tips. And that's the phrase that she used. And so I'll take it. Like, when I think of that phrase, it reminds me, like, oh, I shouldn't be shooting. Like, I feel it now. Like, when it passes through here, like, it almost feels like it has to go over and then instead of through. If that makes any sense. Wow.

Starting point is 01:19:47 I would like to think it does. And then I start singing, and I'm like, I'm blind here. Dude, there's this thing she taught me with a water bottle and a straw. And you just like, with like about an eighth of the bottle being filled. And you have to make these sounds just, and just tones. They're just tones. Five tones. And you do it five times.

Starting point is 01:20:05 And it's very simple. But while you do it, you kind of feel, when you take your air in, you don't use your neck. You use here. You make sure your shoulders don't go up. Right? Wow. You just, and then you allow the air to pass through. and you're blowing bubbles into this thing, right?

Starting point is 01:20:23 And you just allow the air to pass through in a way that feels gentle. And I do that, and then I do my warm-up that I've been doing for like 20-some-odd years. How long is that? How long is that warm-off? 15 minutes. Okay.

Starting point is 01:20:36 Yeah. So overall, it's about a 20-to-25-minute work. Can I find this warm-up somewhere, or is this proprietary technology? Oh, you mean the warm-up like that? The actual warm-up that I do? Is it just, I learned it from a fellow by the name of Ron Anderson. He passed away not too long ago.

Starting point is 01:20:54 But I met him around the time of In Keeping Secrets, because now the band is like, you know, touring for real. And I just went to him one time, and he showed me, like, he showed me like 45 minutes to an hour worth of stuff. But I found that the 15 minutes of it works for me. Okay. All right. I got to move on from Jacob's Vocal Academy.

Starting point is 01:21:13 He's not really... Is that what is that? He's failing me, man. It's this five-minute warm-up that, you know, I guess isn't a... know the Apollo one and two songs do you this the like dual chorus is how they swap on those you are you just like these are so fucking sick I got to do them twice no no so so we were writing the record Michael Burbaum suggested that this was potential this song was potentially a single and so and it's bang

Starting point is 01:21:42 right so what if he's like okay so we got to chop it down we got to get rid of all the fat now this is we're talking about me yeah it was like eight I'm like, I need to get to my point, man. Like, you know, I need to go through all the portals. And so, but I get it. We're now on a major label. And I'm like, and I start thinking, I'm like, well, I think Floyd did it on the wall.

Starting point is 01:22:09 They had reoccurring things and songs that happened. Why do they? Yeah, I was like, all right, we'll do that. But we're still going to do this one. Yeah, that's cool. And we're going to put it at the end. And, yeah, and I tell you this, though, we kick ourselves in the ass for it every time. Yeah, like, like.

Starting point is 01:22:28 Because you got to do both. Yeah, and there's just these little variations. Yeah, I saw a moment last night where Travis looked at Josh and it's like, this one, and Josh's like, fuck. Yeah, that makes sense. That's very cool. But great, both chorus is great, so I get it. What changes for Kohede after this record? Like just exponential growth, platinum record.

Starting point is 01:22:54 Maybe now it's platinum, but it was certainly gold at the time, I think, like immediately, right? Oh, here, check this out. Before we get into that question, fit me. Just so you know, in Everything Evil, the original bridge of Everything Evil is actually in the telling truth of that good apology. You chopped it and saved it? The one that's Jesse Bad Boy. That is actually used to be where that weird part. part is, but you know the whole song and everything is a...

Starting point is 01:23:22 Isn't it kind of, there's kind of a musical motif that goes back that sounds like in keeping secrets though. Yeah, it does. It sounds like... It sounds like Blood Red Summer. It's definitely a musical... But that was pre-blood Red Summer. And it was originally the internal guts of everything evil. And we were like, you know what, this other thing sounds really interesting. And it just kind of stayed there in the back of my mind.

Starting point is 01:23:46 And when we did that song, it's like, I'm gonna inject that. I love when that happens. You save those things and you go, I know I'll have something. Yeah, that's beautiful. Sorry, I thought I'd like to know that. Listen, I wouldn't have known to ask that. But what changes for Cohead now?

Starting point is 01:23:58 What's next? Yeah, we're into buses now. I think so, but that's the thing is I feel like we took so long to get into a bus. Like, I think we're in trailers now. Fuck it. Oh, okay. Yeah, like we're renting a trailer. Respectable, you know.

Starting point is 01:24:12 But I took that. You need merch room for merch boxes now. Right. Like, you know. But that, that, that, being said what year is is good apollo 2005 we're a 20 year anniversary yeah like are we in a bus i mean i gotta say that we have to be but it just took us so long so i can't i can't really like i'm not entirely sure like we might this might be the transitional phase it might might you mentioned

Starting point is 01:24:37 warped tour yeah like like we're warp tour so warped tour 2007 we're in a van we're in a bus right for sure but 2004, I think we're still in a van. We're in a trailer. Brutal. The first one we did, I think, was 2003, and we only did a portion of it, and that was in a van. And then 2004, I think we did, oh, yeah. And then we did it, I think, in a trailer.

Starting point is 01:25:03 Like a camper trailer? Yeah. Oh, I see. Wow. Yeah, like we rented it from like... RVs.com. But here's the thing is, to be completely honest, my memory is terrible for these details. You're doing it.

Starting point is 01:25:15 Great. I mean, I might be wrong. Like, the guys could be watching this be like, this guy's. No world for tomorrow. This is Good Apollo, Volume 2, which you'd never know from the packaging. Is that a label decision? No world for tomorrow? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:33 Yeah, man, like, you know, we have these moments where there's these inconsistencies because, like, people are like, oh, that title, the first time, we got so much flack for the other title being so long, like. it's sold, it was gold in a week. Yeah, so what do you mean? Yeah, I don't know. It's so it's like, so I'm like, I know what it, I know what no world for tomorrow is. I know it's the continuation and it's volume two.

Starting point is 01:25:56 And so I'm like, all right, if that helps. But yeah, I hate it. And it happens still to the state, like Vaxus 2, for example, is another moment where, you know, it's like, well, let's let people know. And now we're in Father of Makebelieve and they're like, well, let's, you know, and this is being Blaze talking. And, you know, sometimes I'm like, come on, believe's like, you know me. Like, yeah, I'm like, so, but it happens, and I know what it is. And one day I'll get all the masters back and I'm just going to put it all out. There you go.

Starting point is 01:26:24 You know. The full story. Yeah. Oh, cool. This is the first record without Josh on drums. Right. Chris Penny's in the band, but contractually can't play on it. Yep.

Starting point is 01:26:34 So you got the late great Taylor Hawkins. Right. On the kit for this album. How I was working with him for that? It was great. Because, you know, Taylor brought so much positivity to what we were doing. And honestly, he played more like Josh in a way. Yeah, Chris is wild.

Starting point is 01:26:50 Yeah, yeah. And I think Chris, his identity being on Year of the Black Rainbow, I think is perfect. There's all the kind of, it's all over there. Yeah. But like, you know, we're coming out of, you know, No Worlds for Tomorrow is like, that's what that record, that record title is about, you know, the band almost breaking up. You know, there's no world for tomorrow for Coheeding Cambria because, you know, it felt like pretty dismal. You know, guys were falling into chemical dependencies, like, couldn't complete obligations. It felt like everything was falling apart.

Starting point is 01:27:23 And Travis and I, being the friends that we were for so long, you know, we just picked up the pieces and made this happen. And, you know, with the help of Nick Raskillenix, he got Taylor involved. And Taylor just, you know, his energy was just so positive that it didn't feel, you know, the cloud that was hanging above us. It wasn't looming as bad as it would have been, say, if we didn't have him, you know, and we didn't have, even Nick as well. Nick's energy was tremendous. What about, and Rick Rubin was part of this record. Yeah, Rick, so Rick, Rick was a chairman at Columbia, so we went and we met with Rick to talk about making this record. So initially we were thinking of Tony Visconti to produce the record, who had done like Bowie,

Starting point is 01:28:13 and Lizzie and T-Rex and all very fitting yeah and and and Rick had suggested Nick you know and we were like okay we weren't too familiar with him but we met him

Starting point is 01:28:27 and like his just energy just felt really good and and you know and then when we found out that Chris couldn't be involved he was like well you know the foo fighters are doing a record maybe we can get Taylor involved and and so it happened and it was great And he was just coming off of actually doing a rush record, Nick.

Starting point is 01:28:47 So he'd like, you know. So there's all that. All that rushes back. Yeah, yeah. Hear that rush thing. Did Rick assist in production? No. Okay.

Starting point is 01:28:58 Not at all. He gets that credit, huh? Yeah, he was just kind of there and, like, made a decision. And, you know, we experienced his house in Malibu and the ferocious flames of his fire. I remember that was a big thing that we all noticed was it felt very, like a possession was happening in that house because that shit was roaring like I like a fire place like a fireplace.

Starting point is 01:29:21 It was just like damn that's possessed. Why? I don't know. It's in California. I know it's hot as hell in here already. Weird guy. The running free. Is this written for Transformers? Is that true? Yeah. So I wrote a couple of songs with Sam Hollander and Dave Katz

Starting point is 01:29:41 in New York City. you know, for potential placement. Right. And running free was one. And the other was the road in the dam. And that's the park got it, huh? Dude. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:29:52 I mean, you know, none of that's ever coming Kobe's way. But it's, but I did. I wrote the road in the dam for Nicholas Cage's Ghost Rider. And then I did it for, and I did running free for Transformers. And that's why the riff is the way it is. Gun, Gung, Gung, Gung, Gung. It's almost. Playing off of the shit.

Starting point is 01:30:16 Yeah. Totally. Was the Transformers franchise aware of the first Codin Camry's shirt that would lead to? Nope. That's surely why they scotted. God damn it. You should have brought that up. Got Transformers if you're watching.

Starting point is 01:30:31 Can we expect a No World for Tomorrow cruise in 2027? Possibly. That's what I said. So, you know, here's the thing, man, is I got on this, I got on the ship. And, you know, we did this three times, you know, and I, I was, I was like, I got on in my, I was telling my wife, I was like, I don't know if I could do it again. Like, I don't like being, you know, we had a pretty heavy year this year of touring. And then like, you know, having to learn the record and, and, uh, for a lot.

Starting point is 01:30:55 Yeah, I was just like, I was, I was burnt. And, um, but I was standing at this window and I saw two people, I think I brought it up last night at the show. And so two people embrace. And they're like, and it reminded me of like, I just, in my, the story I put in my mind was that they hadn't seen each other since the last one. Yeah. Oh. You know what I mean? And, like, because it was like, you know, it was like really like intense. And I was like, man, I was like, we've really cultivated, like, such a cool community here. Like, if people are willing, if they want to do this, I'll provide this for that happiness.

Starting point is 01:31:28 Well, there's also a co-eat album cover that is just that. It's a crux? Yeah. Is it a... Oh, oh, on Heavenly Creatures. We're Sister Spider. A big, beautiful embrace. Right. That's what's up. It's real now. The breakdown in the title track.

Starting point is 01:31:43 Come on, man. You know what you're doing. Which one? Gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, I was, I was killing people at the Fox and... It's killing those two people hugging. Killing motherfuckers to the sun.

Starting point is 01:31:58 Oh, you mean of no world for tomorrow? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's riding, he's hitting it on the crash. What are you doing there? Like, what comes in mind where you think, I'm going to put this crazy mosh part in the middle of this, record and that's that right that's it what's what's the goal is that the suffocation

Starting point is 01:32:18 name yeah yeah come to you in a dream that one you know again no world for tomorrow is essentially like you know there's the band is breaking apart okay you know so this is the world imploding around you when this part is yeah and that happens in the story like and don't do you shout out the crowing again before that part we potentially oh oh oh ain't so yeah yeah i think so yeah I can't recall stuff unless I play it. I'm like... You know what I'm talking about? Before the...

Starting point is 01:32:49 Before the... You all think you figure in me... What's the part before that? As it's building up. In the falling cusp of all broken... You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know. I know. But I can't...

Starting point is 01:33:03 Unless I'm like playing the whole song. I'm like... The song is... This is good. You should check it out. That's great. But this... This mosh...

Starting point is 01:33:12 This is a thing where somebody will be like, I haven't heard the new co-heeding, and I'd be like, you need to stop what you're doing and put this part on, because you won't believe it. Like, coming from a hardcore perspective. Right, right. So I just wonder if you know what you're inciting with these moments like this. Yeah, you're talking about the... Oh, the guitarist happens to be on. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 01:33:35 Wait, you're talking about, like... Oh, yeah. So this is drop D. Oh, this is drop D. Okay. Okay, but the breakdown. And then how's that one? Come on.

Starting point is 01:34:00 Something like that, right, right? I'm smelling blood out there. Yeah. It's over. But that, I know, yes, absolutely. Like, because it's a, yeah. Are you just like, what's, you're just going with what's coming out?

Starting point is 01:34:15 Or is the goal of like, I need a big mosh part here? Yeah, because this is, no, yeah, it's definitely just like what, what's gonna help me transition into the next part. You're crazy, man. That's always, you know, I don't really, I feel like if I thought like that, I'd probably have more success. It makes those moments stand out.

Starting point is 01:34:40 The fact that there are so few of, like, big, obvious mosh moments, makes them all stand out, which is cool, using them sparingly as, like, a weapon every time. Where, in Keeping Secrets is very bridge forward to me. No War for Tomorrow is very hoarse. look forward. Oh yeah. I'm starting to become more concise. I'm starting to like answer my, you know, I always think of like songs. When I think of songs, I think of like versus as the questions and choruses as the answers. You're posing the question and the chorus answers it. And now, it took me a very long time to understand that. And that's why so much of Co-Ead's earlier

Starting point is 01:35:18 songs are those two songs and one. It's like, I'm just like continually like trying to figure out how to answer the question. Now I'm starting to understand it a little more. I'm starting to, you're starting to get more feathers and more running freeze and like, and things like that. Roads in the Damned, you know, I'm just getting there quicker, you know. I'm evolving, I guess. Is that an intentional thing? Like, are you? Or natural just hasn't. Yeah, or is it just happening? I think it's just happening. Because at the same time, like, I'm also noticing it's happening. and I realize like, oh, I also don't want to abandon things like, what's that song called? I don't remember.

Starting point is 01:36:02 You know, the one's like, all that. Oh, back to standard? Right, that one, that's deeper in the record. Yeah, yeah. So that's one of those longer songs. That's a Chromeax riff. Oh, yeah, all right. That's straight.

Starting point is 01:36:21 Yeah. It was a lot of Chromex. Don't tread on me. Yeah, exactly. You're the Black Rainbow. This is the longest gap in records yet. Thematically, it's a prequel story to the rest of the catalog. What brings upon that decision?

Starting point is 01:36:36 Do you feel like the story's done, or do you feel like you need to explore the beginning before you can keep going? Yeah, so at that time, like I'd always, initially in my mind, the co-heed story was only going to be three parts. It was going to end with In Keeping Secrets, and I found that, like, when I started to translate that into a story, it didn't conclude the overall saga, you know? And so that's why I broke the next two records into two volumes,

Starting point is 01:37:01 because I was like, I didn't want to find myself in that world again. Okay. Oh, I'm going to say this is the end, and I'm not going to get there. So I broke it into two to, like, get me up the mountain and then take me down. Okay. You know? That being said, when I always thought of it being a three-part, I knew I'd go back to tell the story of Co-Eating Cambria.

Starting point is 01:37:20 Because, like, when you think about the conceptual part of it, in second stage you don't really see much of co-heeding Camberia. Like they're kind of villainized See it's funny it's like in the music I didn't want to villainize my parents But in the story the concept in real time You're your experience you're writing what your experience right yeah and like so in the story they do and they kind of become these villains And then they end up like destroying a portion of heaven's fence and they become like the terrorists of the emery wars So I wanted to give them a heroic tale and

Starting point is 01:37:53 The Black Rainbow was that. Wow. Are you finding this, aside for being a device for you to kind of share feelings that you might have or kind of tell a story, you know, are you finding it cathartic to get this out? Oh, hell yeah. I mean, that's the thing is like to be able to, the music really, the concept has allowed me to really be as honest as I possibly can. Like we're talking about good Apollo. I mean, it's a nasty, awful.

Starting point is 01:38:23 record. Like, if I didn't have the concept, I couldn't be that nasty. I would never know. You look at the people saying along to it, dancing, smiles in their faces for an hour and 15 minutes. It's insane. I knew. You would never know them. We were watching them last night and people were out of their minds. Biggest beaming smiles. Wow. And my father-in-law is on the ship right now and he's like, he's like, man, you know, everybody really liked that. The theme about tonight is, is just killing. He's like, he's like, and he had such a blast. That's unbelievable.

Starting point is 01:38:56 So Year of the Black Rainbow, this leaked early. Oh, it did? Yeah. Did you run the Coheon camera Twitter in 2010? Blaise may have. Blaise did. Yeah. So that means I had a conversation with Blaze in the Coheed DMs in 2010.

Starting point is 01:39:12 Where I informed. Oh, no way. Does he know that? That the record had leaked. I don't think so. I don't think he knows that was me. Oh, that's red. But, you know, records leaked.

Starting point is 01:39:23 leaking early in those days. In those days? It sucked. It sucked, yeah. But it also is like nice to know that people care about your music so much that they'll scour the depth of the internet to find it. Whereas now nothing leaks because nobody gives a shit and streaming has made people like, okay, this came out last week, it doesn't exist anymore.

Starting point is 01:39:45 I'm on to the next thing. Or if it does leak, it's manufactured. Yeah, right. Yeah, I've done that. Because of the buzz. How much... This is the album... Technically album 5, right?

Starting point is 01:39:59 I get confused because... Yeah. Yep. What's changed for you? Now Chris is on drums. The band's come a long way. It's a completely different entity. This record is way more melodic. Front to back, I would say.

Starting point is 01:40:14 What's changed by now? So at this point, on Good Apollo, No World for Tomorrow I purchased my first mini-mogue like a MoG Voyager and I'd always been into synthesis but

Starting point is 01:40:30 purchasing that and understanding the signal flow of that machine made it way more interesting to me There's a lot of keys Yeah it's it made it so much more interesting And not like just like I turn it on and kind of have to get into a preset although the Mini Moog Voyagers do have presets

Starting point is 01:40:48 Right Just the way to create sound is way, there's way more of a connection. Because you're patching those sounds. Well, not with the, not with a Voyager. Because it's basically, it's like just a mini-mogue, but it's, you know, the thing is, is you have to kind of understand where the signal is flowing. Oh, okay. It's not like a modular synthesizer.

Starting point is 01:41:15 There are some modular inputs on the top of it, but it's still standalone. alone. But it got me so interested in it that I wanted to move into the next phase, which is modular. And that's where we get into working with Atticus Ross of 9-inch Nails and Joe Berisi of working with Queens of Stone Age. And so they partnered up on this record, which really makes that record so special. It's so different. It's awesome. To this day, it is one of my favorite production artists' experiences I've ever had. Because it just like they've really brought a creative uh they they they dynamic change yeah absolutely it's not like you know we're just trying to get good sounds we're trying to be inspired by these

Starting point is 01:42:03 sounds and like and uh and by guys who pioneered these yeah guys who are who are not just guys there are yeah dude and like the idea of like just getting like allowing the chance moments the happy accidents to inform things you know it got me like remembering being a kid sitting at a four track and like accidents happening and being so excited about those things like you can't you know with a four track cassette player it's like you know that's it you if you you're not you can't like you can't record it's not like pro tools where you can like layer sounds across your track or you know just cut it and move it over it's like it's there if you'd want

Starting point is 01:42:41 it now's the time to take it if you don't and so it reminded me of that you know and and I love it. Beautiful. After this, the next four or five records are noted as produced by Coheon Cambria for the first time. Is that true?

Starting point is 01:42:58 I think so. Afterman? Oh yeah, after man, definitely. The last two are produced by Claudio. That's what's up. I moved up in the world. Yeah, good for you. I think it had a lot more to do with the fact that we were, you know,

Starting point is 01:43:11 because of the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. Remote recording and so but, but yeah. So produced by Coedh and Cambra, what brings upon that decision to just do it yourself? You know, well, was it Afterman? Oh, yeah, it must be Afterman that comes after. So we ended up going back to the studio up in Woodstock. And we just, you know, we've been doing this for so long.

Starting point is 01:43:35 And most of the time, you know, the music never changes. Like the actual songs, we're never really given that kind of input. and that's, I think, the thing I've always been, like, kind of looking for. And that's why I think we got... So you want that? Yeah, I mean, because I know what I've been doing it so long. That's why I enjoyed working with Atticus and Joe is because they would, you know, in their way, kind of out. Yeah. Have you explored working with them again?

Starting point is 01:44:06 Well, I mean, I think because of this... Yes, but also, I think that was kind of just like this one time. We're lucky our schedule. Perfect Storm. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it's like I just want to find, you know, I want to be inspired. Like, I mean, I'm inspired every day and I'm starting to get older at this time in the record making. And I want somebody to bring something to the table. And so, but, you know, it hasn't happened. So I was like, let us be at the helm of this thing, you know.

Starting point is 01:44:38 And so, yeah. You're doing it either way. Yeah. You have been producing the whole time. Right, of course. Very cool. I know that we can't keep you here all day So I want to make sure we talk about Okay, I don't know what I mean what I'm fine Let's talk father and make believe

Starting point is 01:44:50 Okay Because god damn what a record Congrats, congrats It's full of like return to form Cohed moments if that makes sense Right on Like if there's there's What's my favorite song from it?

Starting point is 01:45:05 One Last Miracle Oh wow right on That gives me like second stage vibes Oh very sick It all feels very intentional there's a lot of like sub five-minute tracks which is rare you know how did this process begin and and it being produced by you so some of these songs were actually written in the time of window of the waking mind so through the pandemic so songs like goodbye

Starting point is 01:45:31 sunshine could have been on window the waking was that first single or a second uh oh that's a good question was one no someone who can i think might have been the first single but um But yeah, so this is coming out of Window of the Waking Mind. You know, this is remote recording. So one of the things I'd always loved about writing music is the demoing process, you know. And that's the one thing I found kind of gets lost when we go into the studio and we try to recreate these things. Demolitis. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:46:02 And it'll get you. Well, the thing is, I'm also like, I'm writing it and recording it. And so I'm not really capturing this, the inception of the song. I mean, I am in the demoing stage, but then I'm like, trying to compete with that. And there's like an honesty and a... There's something about that that just doesn't get... It's magical.

Starting point is 01:46:20 Yeah. And so Window of the Waking Mind allowed us to like tribute that because we had to write remotely. And so some of those songs spilled into Father and Make Belief. And I just loved Window or Window of the Waking Mind so much that I was like, I just want to do that again.

Starting point is 01:46:40 Let me let me at least do this. one more time. Okay. And then because, you know, we already had so many songs that were already spilling over from that. So, yeah, so again, it's just, it's one of those isolated writing songs in my, at my

Starting point is 01:46:57 house, and kind of sending it around to everybody, getting their, their vibes, throwing input around, and then just getting with Zach Zerveni and, you know, making it sound good. How, how, how like Travis is doing, his fans are running,

Starting point is 01:47:13 and a mile a minute as well. Are you writing a lot of that, or is Travis coming, like, I got my shit? There's a little bit of both. You know, like some songs, you know, there are moments where when I'm just writing at home, like sometimes I need the leads to kind of inform or help support the vocals, you know. So there are moments where I kind of like step on what Travis does, but then there are moments where I do back off and I allow him to kind of be the voice of, you know. Yeah, like to allow him to be there because it's not co-heed without Travis. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:47:47 Two very distinct shredding voices. Right, we are. We're very different. So it's like it's like there's a respect there. So I don't I wouldn't want that to be like you know, I don't want it. It it, it, it, co-heed isn't just me in a room as much as I love the idea of tributing the demo, which is that it needs the other players to have its true identity. And Josh is, you know, the open-handed freak stock. That's my shit. Yeah. I've loved, I've loved, that's something,

Starting point is 01:48:16 the little ghost notes, something I connected to right away. Oh, dude, he will love you for that. That's the ghost king. Yeah. He's a specter on the kid. Phil Spector.

Starting point is 01:48:26 All the symbols on one damn side. All on one sign. Is that a nightmare for, does he do that in recording? Yeah. Yeah, he has to. Is that hell? That's his performance.

Starting point is 01:48:33 I mean, no, because it's, you know, it's, that's his character. You know, I mean,

Starting point is 01:48:38 I'm sure it could be because, yeah, you're not getting the isolation on the, on the hot hat as much as you would. Do they, does he record like shells and symbols separately now? Shells and symbols, no.

Starting point is 01:48:50 Yeah, people do that. People are doing that. Yeah, no. Old school. Hey. Hey, good old. Yeah, sure. Love it.

Starting point is 01:48:59 How do you know at this point, after 11 songs, when a song is done? Do you get stuck still? Yes. Or do you just, but do you follow your instinct for sure? for me it's you know the thing that I get stuck on is is is when is a record complete and I and I mean that in terms of like when is it too long when is it too short you know where are we hitting all the beats we need to in the story that's in my mind and also the emotions that I'm trying to get at to capture like what I'm going through in this moment in time that's the part is part for me because like

Starting point is 01:49:33 like I said good Apollo or excuse me uh goodbye sunshine was a song that was sitting around during window the waking mind there were other ones too I mean, I think Play the Poet was a riff that was hanging out for a while. So that does happen? Yeah, like, they just sit. You know, there's, we release these four entity songs. One of the songs is called Key Entity Number 8, Peter the Wishing. And that song is as old as Afterman.

Starting point is 01:50:02 Oh, wow. Like, that song was the song. This is in the, like, 18-track version of it that just came on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's the, so, um, that's, song was what informed Gravity's Union. So like, that's a hit, right? Yeah, I love Gravity's.

Starting point is 01:50:17 It's my favorite, one of my favorite Co-Eat songs. And, but like that, uh, but at that time I wrote that tune and I didn't really see what it really meant to me. And then like, I remember when my grandfather passed away and like some of the phrases in that song reminded me of that and I was like, that's what this song is about. So I, you know, colored the entity after those experiences. So when you get to 10 tracks out of 11 done on a record, or you just have 10 done, you don't know how many you're going for, but you get up the feeling, we need one more. I think we need one more. How are you forcing, how are you squeezing out this idea? Do you just pick up a guitar and start fiddling? Or are you going back to your demos? Are you going back to a bank?

Starting point is 01:51:03 Most of the time, going back to the demos, I mean, I don't, there's never a moment, to be honest, that there's not enough material. It's always there's two. So you're just, you're demoing. Yeah. And it's complicated because any other band you would think, like, the shorter the better, it's fine, we can keep it short. You have a rabid, die-hard fan base that wants the experience to be grand, and they want to pick apart what you're saying.

Starting point is 01:51:28 We'll be 10 songs. Yeah. And we visit his motif. So, yeah, it's harder for you than kind of anybody. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's like, for example, like Dark Side of Me, right? That wasn't even a song that was going to be on any of the Afterman records. It was a riff.

Starting point is 01:51:41 Travis was working on the reverse riff, like in the kitchen area at Applehead, and I was like, that's a cool riff. And let me take that. I take the riff home, learn it, and then I construct a song around it. I'm like, this is worthy of the record. This is a thing. And it's not even like, it didn't feel like we were missing anything. It was just like, at that moment in time, it's like, that is a statement, and I'm inspired by it. Let me see what I can do with it.

Starting point is 01:52:11 get it to a place and it's like okay this is this has a home on this record or it doesn't you know yeah how often does that happen how often is a an idea brought where it's just that's just not yet not yet not there right uh it happens a lot yeah yeah you know but i think it you know because i kind of fun everything kind of funnels through me so it's like you know you know it's just kind of the way things have like gone through a little bit of year but like but like there are moments where just if it hits like 10s, usually it's from Travis, 10 speed. 10 speed is a riff Travis messing with and it's like, you know, Dark Side of Me, what's off of Radio Bye-bye, a riff the Travis had, you know,

Starting point is 01:52:57 so there are things when they're like in my periphery and like I can, it's in informing a melody, like I don't, I'm, I'm, yeah. And that's the thing is sometimes there are those moments where It doesn't and it's, you know, and people are maybe disappointed sometimes by that, but it's not, you know, it's just because if it hits me, then it's like it's worth like exploring at that moment. It all seems very fluid, very liquid and flexible and creative in that. Right. That makes a lot of sense. We're going to wind it down here a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:53:31 Been a band for forever. How at this point do you relax on tour? I write. I write you're just a music guy you just don't stop so I realized you know garage band with the right pre-amps so all that right there that's you're on garage man you're not even on logic just I just because it's on my phone you know so I just record now like ideas all the time on my phone and then I'll take them I'll bounce them out I'll put the stems in pro tools and then I'll work off those like typically I'm working at home and I'm doing my thing but like now I found

Starting point is 01:54:08 this other option just right on my phone. What is your voice memo app look like on your phone? It's a mess, dude. Are you like a riff hummer

Starting point is 01:54:19 into the Yeah, if you're on the go if you don't, you just All the time. Jin, gin, gin, gin, gin, gin, gin, gin, gin, gin, oh yeah, he's scrolling.

Starting point is 01:54:28 You can't see it, but it's miles. Scrolling, scrolling, yeah, it goes forever. Holy shit, we're still going. Yo. Lights still gone. Look, these are all, these are notes in Paris.

Starting point is 01:54:38 We're in Paris. We're back to 2020. Yeah, then my, this is my house is where I live. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so yeah, all over. Look, Atlantic Avenue, so I'm probably walking around the neighborhood. Yeah. You know, but yeah, and then I just, things get lost.

Starting point is 01:54:51 So every once in a while, I kind of go in here. Smart. And I'll listen. Yeah, you got it. Of course. And see if there's something there that's just, like, surprising. That makes total sense. I knew it.

Starting point is 01:55:00 I knew the answer wasn't going to be. Nah. Not really. Miles long. What are some simple pleasures in your life? you enjoy. Do you collect anything? Yeah, I collect synthesizers. I collect

Starting point is 01:55:14 gear. I like gear a lot. You got gas. I do, yeah, I like gas. Gear acquisition syndrome. Oh, is that what that is? Let's talk a little gear. We rarely talk about gear. People want it. Let's talk gear, please. Tell me, what's your grail guitar? What do you got that

Starting point is 01:55:30 you're just over the moon about? I think, you know, the guitars that I play on stage, I mean, I don't have anything that's, like, insane. You know, know I have like a 70s like Les Paul Telecaster deluxe that's that's cool and vintage but it's not I got it because you know we were doing color before the Sun that was the guitar I was using for most of that record and like and so I found one at like a Carter's vintage in Nashville and I bought one and but I don't very rarely do I buy

Starting point is 01:55:59 things like that I typically like to buy the things that people don't want like I'll go on Facebook Marketplace like this guitar for example I bought this for like a thousand dollars less than what it typically goes for it's brand new and had plastic on it the guy just didn't like it no and I had nothing with P90s yeah so I was like you know what I'm gonna get that and are you showing up yourself to get this thing no no I know so typically it's on tour oh okay so like Ernie our tour manager will like will help facilitate but like I like to buy the things that people don't want like the misfit things like you know

Starting point is 01:56:35 because I know that there's magic and all the shit that's like getting thrown away the the the idea do you find this to be true the idea of of grabbing an instrument that's new to you and being inspired absolutely yeah it's a very real thing it is absolutely this guitar dude I'm telling you like it's you know it's not a guitar that I mean I was like not sure if I should bring it like I flew with this thing yeah you know I'm in that gig bag like I I enjoy playing it so yeah it's like you know it's cool like that I I I I I I bought that.

Starting point is 01:57:09 I mean, and most of the time, I like to collect big muffs. Okay. I got one actually in the bag, like a version four. How often do you activate a big muff in the set? Never.

Starting point is 01:57:22 Okay. Now I'm playing in the... But I have been writing a lot with them now, and so... And I'm starting to find the difference between the version... The Tremeet. Yeah, and the fours.

Starting point is 01:57:31 Yeah, yeah. And, like, so now I'm, you know, actively, like, seeking out, like, of the versions so I can, you know, have the different... Is that your favorite petal of all the time? I think it is, yeah. You know, because the first one I had, you know,

Starting point is 01:57:44 I kind of acquired it like in a fucked up way because I was young. I remember, so my music teacher, Bert Hughes, who just passed away, amazing person. He had one in a box in high school. I went into his office because he asked me to get something. I went in there and I was looking for it in the drawers. I was in the high school jazz band

Starting point is 01:58:04 and he had a big muff. And I remember like, Jay Mask is from dinosaur junior uses the big muff like that's a thing Three of them yeah yeah and so I I was like I'm gonna I'm like and his office was a wreck So I'm like I'm gonna take this home

Starting point is 01:58:18 I'm gonna mess with this Yeah exactly and then Immediately and I'll bring it back I was gonna promise I was gonna bring it back and like But then I should have just asked him to borrow it But again I just I thought he would probably say no So sure enough he goes into that office and he asks Where is it?

Starting point is 01:58:35 and I'm like, oh, I can't, I can't. I fucking, I fucked up. And then years later, he came to a co-heed show before he passed away, and I told him about it. I was like, man, you know, I feel really sorry. I kind of took this thing from you, and he was like, that was actually a gift for you. No.

Starting point is 01:58:55 Yeah. And you cherished it so much instinctively that you didn't take it on that tour, right? Yeah. That was the one you bled on you said. Yeah, and I actually cloned it for a pedal release that we put out called The Anna. Awesome. Because I used to use it around the times of like second stage, it early, like writing with those songs and stuff like that.

Starting point is 01:59:18 And it's the pedal that, like back then I would always put like an overdrive, like a super overdrive in front of a big month. Before it, yeah. Yeah. And it just, that's what got me into understanding, like, signal flow in pedal chains. Gazzana-Gazada. Yeah, right. Yeah, and I love that.

Starting point is 01:59:38 And so I just cherished that, like, pairing. And now any time, like, Kohit ever needs, like, like, unruly feedback, like, for example, the song Toys, there's that moment where everything stops and it's like, whew-it's got, like, that nirvana-e kind of feedback. It's always that pairing. Super-over-drive in front of a big muff. Is there anything you collect or that you're into that is not musical? Comics, I do collect key moments in comic books. You have like Amazing Fantasy 15? Yeah, I wish I had that.

Starting point is 02:00:07 Like my wife and I almost bought one of those, but you know, when we were collecting together, we chose to collect. Instead of buying a poorly graded American Fantasy, oh, Amazing Fantasy 15, we actually got First Avengers and the Tales of Suspense first Iron Man. What is the key moment? It was like the first time. Yeah, like Amazing Fantasy 15 is the Spider-Man's first time. Spider-Man's first appearance. Yeah, the iconic cover. So a key moment is a...

Starting point is 02:00:38 Yeah, like a... ubiquitous term. It could be used for anything. Yeah, what was... Punisher's first appearance? Was it a... I got that. Was it a Wolverine...

Starting point is 02:00:47 Yeah, it was a Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Yeah. Cool. I got... Yeah, like, things like that. Like, Wolverine's first appearance and Incredible Hulk 181.

Starting point is 02:00:54 It's typically Marvel stuff. Like, every once in a while, I'll find a DC thing that makes sense to me. Like, the first appearance of The Calendar Man, which is like kind of like a weird I love the calendar man what does he do he's

Starting point is 02:01:07 he's really not he's like a he's a troll yeah he's like a calendar like villain he's like the condiment king he's just silly I like him that's awesome I think he was used really well in a Batman story called the long Halloween and dark victory right like in a very

Starting point is 02:01:24 like Hannibal Lecter kind of way I read that one which is what the Batman is partially inspired by that's why it starts on Halloween it's a year two. Yeah, yeah, of course. So comic books? Yeah, comic books.

Starting point is 02:01:35 Sometimes toys, there are toys in the house, movie posters. Oh, yeah. You know, like vintage movie posters. I have a few of them, not a ton, like Bill and Ted and Kroll. Are you, but I collect Kroll shit. Cool. But there's not a whole lot of it, like board games, card games. That's probably about it.

Starting point is 02:01:54 My wife just got me like a movie program that you got for my anniversary. but I live in Brooklyn, so when the mailman put shit on the porch, people steal it. That's devastating. And somebody fucking took it. Oh, that's horrible. Come on, guys. What are you going to do with that?

Starting point is 02:02:11 They chucked it. They were very disappointed when they opened that off. Bullshit. All right, let's wind it down real low here. This is going to be tough. Okay. I'm sorry. You can take your time with this.

Starting point is 02:02:25 I want to know four coheed riffs that when you finished, you felt like you cracked the Da Vinci Code. Okay. Well, probably Welcome Home is definitely one of them. It'd have to be. Yeah, sure. Because I just, yeah, the excitement of when I've played it.

Starting point is 02:02:43 Fucking Gravity's Union is a song. That's actually the song that made me realize Josh had come back into the band. So when I wrote that, I was still living up in the country. And I wake up early, so I was writing it. And the sun was coming up. I lived next to a cornfield at the time, and the sun was coming up, and I was air drumming to this composition that I put together. And I started crying, and I was playing, like, ferociously in the air.

Starting point is 02:03:15 Open hand. Yeah. Yeah, open hand, dude, right? And I was like, man, you know, if he's okay, this eye am considering this should happen. Beautiful. You know, so gravity's union. That is beautiful. What else?

Starting point is 02:03:31 What else would be a big riff? It's a big revelation, writing revelation. I did it. Yeah. I did it. The eureka moment. There's just so many songs. You're telling me, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Starting point is 02:03:46 You weren't like, fuck, that's sick. No. I remember writing Fear Through the Eyes of Madness. I was with my wife and we were in the Florida Keys. So I remember writing that moment. So for that, I'll remember that moment. Because I was like, this is like, reminds me of Jeff Rottal meets Iron Maiden

Starting point is 02:04:11 or something like weird ass shit. Like, you know, I was like, if only I could be playing the flute. You know? But I remember that. And I think time consumer, because it's probably the first one, you know, and I was in Paris. And I had I bought this Yamaha like while I was out there. This was back when you could actually fly with shit in between your legs. So like when I went home with it, it was like it was the most uncomfortable eight hours. I think I had ever experienced on a plane.

Starting point is 02:04:37 Oh, eight hours raw dog into. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Looking at the back of this headstock thing like waiting to play. Yeah. Yeah. But I just sneak any riffs in on the plane? Yeah, no way. Yeah. But yeah, that's that's fantastic. And then I also want to know you're your top four non-coheed line check riffs of all time oh good oh i like that you know i don't know many songs that's a thing you're a writer you know yeah like i yeah i'm not i i really don't have any i just like i just like noodle the way and you just kind of go for it yeah right yeah

Starting point is 02:05:14 you write for sound check yeah probably yeah i'm the same way yeah not as not as good crowbar it's crowbar every time i like crowbar rift or i'll hit a straight ahead riff or something but other than that, it's, I have to have written it. Very interesting answer. That makes a lot sense. That makes total sense. And then the last question would be, and hopefully Blaze prepared you did.

Starting point is 02:05:33 He did. Good. Could you tell me your top four records of all time on the extreme music spectrum, punk, hardcore, death metal, etc. Okay. So one would probably have to be sex pistols, never mind the bollics. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:05:47 Come on. And, you know, and that even goes into like the collection of the greatest rock and roll swindle, even though that's not like a real record. Like there's shit on there that I can get down with. And I like that movie. But so I think that because it's my, it's probably the first punk rock record I had ever listened to

Starting point is 02:06:07 because my friend Patrick, who's on the cruise. On the cruise. You know, I wasn't, punk wouldn't be on my radar if it wasn't for him in probably that record. Awesome. You know. And it was a gateway to many.

Starting point is 02:06:20 Yeah. Dude, I was listening to the other day. I, you know, it was almost, I was in a store in Europe and was playing. And I had listened to it in the dressing room like nights before, but it still felt like new and exciting to me because at moments it felt cleaner than it's ever in the store. I was like, what the hell is that never? I'm not sure.

Starting point is 02:06:43 What, they didn't have any other records? What record is it? Was it remastered or something? No, yeah, it must have been because it just sounded like. Just details you never heard. Yeah. But it's a record that I've been listening to a lot of now, and he's also inspired the character of Blindside Sunny. Fuck yeah. The Dext would have to be the Misfits Collection of Legacy of Routality, because...

Starting point is 02:07:05 Dumb-off. When we were kids, as the first band I was in, the drummer, his father... The drummer's father used to work for a tape manufacturing company, and they would do things for, like, Caroline Records, and... whatever have you. So there were all sorts of tapes that we'd pull from and get inspired by, whether it was like the naked Regans or like the gay bikers on acid, but, um, but legacy of brutality is one that I picked simply because I liked the ghoul on the cover, right? And like, he gets all of us. He comes for us all of it. Yeah. Yeah. And but then we like listened to it, and I think it really kind of taught me songs. Yeah. You know, I'd listen to other,

Starting point is 02:07:47 I've listened to tons of music before it, but the simplicity, the melodic the hooks you know it's a hokey band it's perfect they're the hookiest man they do

Starting point is 02:07:57 what they did with what they had is impossible unbelievable it's sick it's sick and we used to cover she because of it

Starting point is 02:08:04 really yeah cool this was my first band we were called like toxic parents um which Pat was singing it right

Starting point is 02:08:11 um next would have to be it'd have to be number three would have to be the two that I brought up before effigy of the forgotten by suffocation and obituaries

Starting point is 02:08:20 Charles and death mashed together. Yeah, just like, let that be number three, because those were the two records I would sleep with. That was how, you know, that was as extreme metal, I think, as I had gotten at the time. That's as extreme as you need to be. Oh, okay, right on. We just got the see obituary in Germany. They were playing at the venue across the street.

Starting point is 02:08:37 Wow. So we got to catch a little bit of them before we went on. They still got it. Yeah, it was so sick. I was like, wow, I couldn't believe it. And then Travis got a hoodie, and I was jealous because I didn't have my, I had my euros on me to get one. They would have given you.

Starting point is 02:08:50 They don't know who I am. That's bullshit. Was the song, the Uncomplete, inspired by the original album? The title? Absolutely. From the album, Incomplete. That's what we call Hardlore. Oh, and there was one more, damn it.

Starting point is 02:09:04 I forgot. Where was the one more? You got it. I'm going to just go with Bad Brain's Eye against Eye. Simply because of my first experience with Doc. Unbelievable. You know, like sitting in a bar with somebody thinking. Stop.

Starting point is 02:09:15 Ooh. Yeah, right. But, like, I was like, I can't believe. This man is telling me this. Who is this person? And then, you know, being in Woodstock, New York, I'm not going to think like... Oh, that was in Woodstock, New York, yeah. Yeah, now, Woodstock, New York.

Starting point is 02:09:34 I know, right. Because he lives up there, and I think so does Darrell. Wow. You know, Darrell lives up there, and I was just like, oh, you know, wow, I am actually sitting next to a legend, you know. And then to be able to, like, have him be on the opening, song of our debut record is like pretty incredible. And the only guest ever on a Cohe record.

Starting point is 02:09:55 Yeah. It ties right. You know. It's unbelievable. Claudia, thank you so much for doing us. Dude, thanks, guys. This was cool, man. I hope I didn't board the hell.

Starting point is 02:10:05 No, you got it. It wasn't that unbelievable. Thank you all so much. Thank you all for watching. Thank you all for listening. Father Make Believe is out now. The crews will be back in 2027 if he's, if he's willing and is ready. No world for tomorrow.

Starting point is 02:10:20 Unbelievable. insane. They're playing Star Wars music now. Yeah. This is insane. It's poetic, it's beautiful, it's horrible. Thank you. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.

HardLore - Claudio Sanchez (Coheed & Cambria)

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