HardLore - Craig Ahead: Straight Ahead Reunion, Sick of it All Hiatus, Quitting Youth of Today, Agnostic Front

Starting point is 00:00:00 How fondly have you looked back at straight ahead for the last 40 years? Sometimes I would occasionally put it on, like the end of war zone thing, and it would give me goosebumps. I'd be like, wow, like listen to what I was doing when I was like a little kid. I was like, no wonder everybody likes this so much. It's really good. Like from my outside perspective, I'm pretty damn happy with it. It pops. Pops like crazy, you know.

Starting point is 00:00:22 Is there any hope in ever seeing straight ahead again? April 25th, we're playing in Brooklyn. at the Brooklyn Monarch as main support for Gorilla Biscuits. Yes, we've decided to play again. It feels like something we can do. It feels right. Like when we rehearse, I get like goosebumps. It's like really fun.

Starting point is 00:00:42 So I'm excited for it, you know? Hello, welcome. It's Hardlork Time. How you doing, Bo? I'm doing good. New Me, New Year. You know? That's right. New Me, New Year.

Starting point is 00:01:12 Exactly. First episode of the year, and we've got a very special one. It is our honor to introduce. Duce, a New York hardcore legend. There's no other way to say it. Iconic bass player, prolific, a man whose discography spans multiple generations, and we're going to get into all of them. Quite a resume. Quite a resume. One of the greats. Ladies and gentlemen, Craig Ahead, first known as Craig Satari. How are you, Craig?

Starting point is 00:01:48 Hey, guys, what's up? Nice intro. And thanks for having. with me. I'm excited. Thanks for being here. Unbelievable. I'm a fan of the show. Oh, wow. You know, I'm a fan of the show, so I'm excited to do this one. That means a lot, and I know that when we spoke on the phone, you said, you would forgive me for Warzone beating sick of it all in the 80s bracket. Ah, what are you going to do? You know, I used to go see Warzone play,

Starting point is 00:02:12 smelled like Clove cigarettes, the Pyramid Club. So, you know, I got some, I got some memories and some, you know, the heartstrings go when I think about wars on a little bit as well. So it's a way. Okay. Okay. So we all understand, you know. But I did fit for sure. If you go back and review the footage, you'll see me going, I think it should be the thing about all.

Starting point is 00:02:34 So. But here we are. Let's dive in. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Sure. What can you do? Before you were Craig ahead, you were Craig Satari.

Starting point is 00:02:44 You were born Craig Satari. Tell me about that guy and your early life, life before Harpour Music. All right. So as a little kid, I grew up in Queens, you know, the north end of Queens town called Bayside. Actually, one of the nicest parts of Queens. I was raised by my mother and I have an older brother. We grew up in a small apartment with no money. I had an alcoholic father that left when I was very young, but came around just enough for me to see some really bad stuff as a kid. And, you know, we all say when we talk about Harker, we all say we're here for a reason. You know, those type of memories are probably my reason. And, you know, I was just a normal kid growing up, getting into trouble and doing the wrong thing and hanging out in the streets and, you know, running around with my friends. But my mother is very loving. And my brother's a great guy. And, you know, I always had a really good, strong family unit, but no father in the house, you know. Sure.

Starting point is 00:03:41 So that's pretty much my childhood, bad influences most of the kids I grew up with. It's a cliche line, but they're dead or in jail. And I found music when I got to be a team. teenager and that's what sort of pulled me out of, you know, I was never a criminal at heart. I wasn't one of those guys. You know, I was friends with a lot of these guys, but the music is really would open my eyes to the world and having a better, more fulfilling life, I think. It really, it really usually is one of two things. It's sports or music. Sometimes both. Both. It was both for me. I like baseball a lot when I was a kid. I played baseball. I wouldn't

Starting point is 00:04:17 have been a pro baseball player, you know. Yeah. But, you know, what can I tell you? I actually heard that you've got some crazy baseball stories from your youth. I don't know about crazy baseball stories, but I played on a couple of championship teams as a kid. And then as an adult, I played in an adult league and we won the championship. And I made some plays. I was in, like, the local paper from making a play or two. But there were guys in my baseball league that were, like, so good.

Starting point is 00:04:43 They were, like, way better than me. I wasn't a standout. I was, you know, average to good player. Where was this? This was in Bayside in Queens. I played the Bayside Little League. And now forgive me if I don't know my geography, but being from Queens,

Starting point is 00:04:55 does that make you a Mets fan? Well, technically, yeah. I mean, I'm a Mets fan because I grew up kind of near Shay Stadium. But, you know, the Mets over the years haven't given that much to really love. You know, it's outside of a few years, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:05:09 But technically I'm a Mets fan, yeah. Who was the catcher, Mike? Biazza you're talking about. Oh, my God. I loved that guy. Yeah, he could play. He was good. He had a terrible arm.

Starting point is 00:05:21 He couldn't throw the ball at all. But he was tough, you know. He was tough. He was good defensively, and he could hit really well. But his throwing was horrible. He couldn't, like, the dude couldn't hit the side of a barn from 10 feet away. Like, he would throw to second base and we'd go to center. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:05:36 I mean, look, you only got to do one thing great, right? We can't all be Otani. You got to, I mean, listen, you know, you do what you can. You know what I mean? Yeah. You need that. The world needs our dent. Rodman's, you know?

Starting point is 00:05:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Growing, I know we're not going to talk that much about baseball, but growing up I was a Cubs fan, so we would root against the Mets, obviously. And, uh, but my dad, he was like a big Cubs guy. He would always be like, I like Piazza. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got awesome, you know, yeah, it's one of those guys. Um, so you said music was the thing that, that got you out of a bad environment,

Starting point is 00:06:12 rough environment, a rough crowd. Was it hardcore music right away? Not right away. I'd say when I was about, you know, 10 years old is when I really started digging into music. I started playing bass around 10 or 11 years old. You know, when I was a little kid, my brother would bring home some records like, you know, Arrow Smith and, you know, like Black Sabbath. And I love that stuff.

Starting point is 00:06:39 And I still do. I still love that. And, you know, I got into that. And then my brother started going to high school. And I he, Danny Loker was his, his, his classmate had music class together first thing in the morning. They became friends at Big Charlie Hankins, who was the, the bouncer at CBGB's rest of soul. He would come over too because my brother played on the football team. My brother was like the last bench warmer on the football team.

Starting point is 00:07:06 And Charlie was the star of the team. So they were friends. And Danny was the connection because Danny was into like metal and punk and hardcore. And Charlie would go to CB's. So those guys came over and brought me records and it just turned. Danny started, you know, showing me bass and all that. And it just turned into this thing from when I was like 10, 11 years old where I just...

Starting point is 00:07:26 Did he give you your first base? He did. He actually gave it to my brother. My brother was going to play bass for that band Anthrax back in like 1980. Because they were just starting and they were just starting to play. And my brother didn't really care about that. You know, he wanted to like drink beer and pick up chicks. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:07:42 Sure. So I would just sit home every day and play the thing. I got good pretty fast. By the time I was 12, I was like in bands and stuff. Was Danny Loker somebody who was around hardcore in its infancy to you? He was, he was. He was like into rock and metal and hardcore. And, you know, he was a fan of everything.

Starting point is 00:08:01 He was like a, he was like the first crossover guy. So he turned beyond to, you know, everything from, you know, Black Sabbath to the exploited. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. He would give me seven inches back in the early 80s. And I was like, let's go to a show, let's go to show. He's like, all right, wait, wait until you get a little older, wait until you get a little older, you know.

Starting point is 00:08:21 Before we get there, when you're picking up the bass, I'm just curious, are you, because like, really early on in your discography, you're doing, you're doing little bass runs. You're doing stuff that a lot of guys weren't necessarily doing at the time. The bass was more of, like, mimicking the guitar, you know, but you're kind of playing a little more traditionally, which I would imagine comes from some of the stuff you're finding, some of the records you're getting. are you playing with your fingers? Are you playing with a pick? How are you approaching this instrument that's new to you? The first, like I'd say from 10 to 12,

Starting point is 00:08:53 I pretty much played my fingers. I learned how to play everything with my fingers. I was a big fan of John Henswistle from the Who. The Ox, baby. Yeah, the Ox is great. So I learned all of that stuff and early Sabbath. I was a big fan of Gies of Butler.

Starting point is 00:09:06 He's kind of like one of my main influences. So I was doing that. And then when I first started playing shows with bands, I played with my fingers, but certain stuff when I started playing more like punk and hardcore. Yeah. And even some like heavy metal stuff when I was a little kid.

Starting point is 00:09:19 Some of it had to be played with a pick. So I worked on my picking and I got really good with a pick. So I pretty much play hardcore with a pick. But I play with my fingers as well. It just depends what I'm what I'm playing and who I'm playing with. You know, when I jam with certain people that have nothing to do with hardcore, I'll play with my fingers a lot, you know. That makes sense.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Just a true basement. Yeah, I was a bass player before I was a hardcore guy. It kind of came together in a way. but I didn't start playing bass because of hardcore. I was a bass player that found hardcore. I think you can tell in a lot of your choices in songwriting. I mean, we'll get there, but like in straight ahead, right off the bat. Right off the bat.

Starting point is 00:09:58 It's the first thing you notice. Straight ahead was pretty unique musically. Like it goes by so fast that it's hard to really pick it apart. But if you listen to the actual parts, some of it's just very basic. But a lot of it's like very musical. Yeah. It just happens so fast. It's so like eclectic, I guess is a good word for it.

Starting point is 00:10:18 It's pretty eclectic stuff. Like I listen back to it. I'm proud of it. I think to myself, this is some of the best stuff I ever wrote. It's totally like it's very unique. It sounds like nothing else really. You can hear the influences of other things, but the actual, the riffs and the way they go together, there's weird timings and there's all kinds of like strange musical stuff.

Starting point is 00:10:36 It's insane how much happens efficiently in so little time. 100%. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. That's, yeah, I looked back at that with a lot of pride. And the way the sound I got, like, on I first end the war zone recording, it was just straight into the board. I was playing red, my red base. It just, it just all fell together. I was like, I kind of found my way on that recording.

Starting point is 00:10:58 I feel like that was, that was like me. You know what I mean? In order to get there, I want to, I want to know how you met Tommy Carroll and other key bands and figures in your early life and hardcore. I went to my first hardcore show in 84. It was warm weather, so summer of 84. I don't remember the exact date. But I went to a show, and I started every week, I went to shows. And right away, pretty quickly, I met Tommy at a show at like a Sunday matinee,

Starting point is 00:11:32 and we were talking, and he was saying, hey, you know, I play in this band, this NYC Mayhem band with these other guys. And, you know, like, I kind of, it's good. but we need a new bass player and I don't really like the direction. You know, he was like finding his way as well. So I wound up playing with him. So Tommy and I became fast friends.

Starting point is 00:11:52 Right away, we were friends. And he was cool, you know, he would give me tapes. I would listen to these new bands. He would give me, I would give me some stuff and we would go back and forth like that. And he invited me to go watch one of the rehearsals I did

Starting point is 00:12:03 and then shortly after I was in the band. Are any of the, were any of the songs on the violence demo written before you were in the band? All of them. Okay, so you were not part of that writing process? No, the really metal-sounding stuff I didn't write. When I came in, it was like, Tommy was like,

Starting point is 00:12:24 hey, I want to play hardcore. And so when I joined the band, we used some of those songs still because it was like a transitional period, but I wrote a bunch of other songs. And Gordon also wrote songs that were more like the direction we were going in. So a lot of that mayhem stuff, the mayhem stuff that we would play were straight ahead songs.

Starting point is 00:12:46 We took them for straight ahead and adopted them and just sort of like, we didn't really even change them. We just played them. Maybe the arrangement switched a little bit. A lot of later mayhem later. It's like six months later. Six months later. Yeah, six months later. But six months when you're 14 or 15, 15 is a long time, you know.

Starting point is 00:13:05 But a lot of that stuff was used for straight ahead as well. Something so, so Tommy played drums and sang in NYC Mayhem. And the demo came out in 85. I think the one you're talking about probably came out in 84, I think. So that's even crazier because if that came out in 84, it's got blast beats on it. It starts with blast beats. Yeah, that band was one of the first blast beat bands.

Starting point is 00:13:33 Maybe the first. Maybe because if it's 84, the, the alleged first blast beat, in recorded history is milk by SOD. Yeah, but they got that from Danny and from, I don't want to say for me, but they got that for me and Danny jamming in my house and recording stuff. We used to take the,

Starting point is 00:13:52 I had this plush bass amp and we would hang a microphone down over it and hang it in front of the speaker. I would sit on a milk crate with a tape, a cassette thing and we'd tape them like a can, a beer can to it. I had a drumstick and a screwdriver with tape around it and we would pull it play off the cabinet and play the thing and hit the little thing as a symbol. And he would play bass distorted through a while.

Starting point is 00:14:17 And we would switch back and forth between, you know, him drumming and singing and me doing it. We did this thing called the Crabb Society. It was like a joke. And that became like something that SOD did later. Yeah, their demo was Crab Society North. Yeah, we did something like that. Yeah, we did that like a year before or whatever. And it was like, it was like a joke.

Starting point is 00:14:38 for fun, you know? But then, but so that means NYC Mayhem is the first recorded Blast Beat. In the context of punk and metal and heart beat. Because the guys from Napalm Death, they always say, you're the first blast beat. Your thing was, you know, your band, M.C. Mayhem and that early Crime Society was the first blast beat.

Starting point is 00:15:01 So that's what the guys in Napalm Death say. And they're like the next blast beat, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Colin, when was like, Hellhammer going. Well, that was... Okay, okay. But that would be 81 or 82, 83.

Starting point is 00:15:16 Because Kelthik Frost started in 84. Right. So if I had a guess, I would have said Hellhammer, you know. Right. I would have assumed. You're right. You're right. That's not a blast. Whereas Tommy's going...

Starting point is 00:15:26 He was doing a lot of drum rolls. Yeah. A lot of drum rolls off the hi-hat. And then later straight ahead was punches, you know, off the riffs. So a ban on the band. We were doing more like almost. like, straight ahead did the scissor.

Starting point is 00:15:43 Yeah, constantly. Which was just like a symbol cue is like like Tom stuff. Almost like like like I call him like circus beats. Sounds like yeah. Sounds like a circus like sped up. So where where would he have gotten?

Starting point is 00:15:58 Did he, is he getting that from like jazz? Yeah. You know he he, he played drums and he liked jazz when he was a little kid because his father was into jazz. So he always says to me, yeah,

Starting point is 00:16:08 influenced, but I didn't realize it was jazz. But also, he said, all right, these guys do this. I'm going to do a snail roll to make it even faster because he wanted to play really fast when he was a kid like that. Unbelievable. That's what we call hard lore. That's hard lore, man. So NYC Mayhem coincides with the explosion of extreme metal.

Starting point is 00:16:27 Yeah. Four years after Slayer, or three years after Slayer, two years after possessed the first death metal band. A year after Celtic Frost starts, or the same year. If you're saying the demo is 84, that's insane. It is straight up proto, Generation 1 death metal. So we played,

Starting point is 00:16:46 like they played that and then I joined, but then we turned more into a hardcore band because we, you know, like I was more into hardcore and so was Tommy and we kind of morphed. Okay. And that's why we eventually broke up because Gordon didn't want to play like that. So he left and then straight ahead and went up forming down the line. Okay.

Starting point is 00:17:03 By down the line. I mean like eight months later. Yeah. Straight ahead probably formed in December of 8. Was it like, no, no, December. 85 December or something? Yeah, like December of 85 or maybe even earlier. It's hard for me to say.

Starting point is 00:17:21 Mayhem was like the end of 84 through most of 85. We played with the psychos at CB's on October 6th of 1985. And that might have been the last mayhem show. I'm not sure. And as you're doing that, you're thinking, fuck this. I just want to play hardcore? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:38 Yeah. You know, we played with this. It was the numskulls, which was Richie's band before. He called the True Blue, but then it was Underdog. And they played and then token entry played, mayhem played and the Psychos played. It was like a matinee at CB's. And, you know, we were like Tommy, you know, you should be Tommy. We wanted to be a frontman.

Starting point is 00:17:59 We wanted to be the frontman. We were like, yeah, having the drummer behind the drum sucks. We want to have pylons and sing-a-yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We wanted to increase the fun factor, you know what I mean? So we, you know, Tommy came out behind the drums. So we were like, who's going to play drums? And one day we were sitting outside of Cebees, and I was telling Armand this story.

Starting point is 00:18:17 I was like, yeah, Tommy wants to, you know, sing and we're going to change it up. We're not sure what the name's going to be. And Armand was like, I want to play drums. I was like, but you play guitar because he was a guitar player, a really good one originally. And he was like, I want to play drums. And I'm like, you don't play. He goes, yeah, but I always wanted to. I was like, okay, we're going to rehearse and like, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:37 whatever, we're going to rehearse on Thursday, whatever the hell. So we rehearsed and we had a gig, the first gig was like two weeks later. So he played at rehearsal like a handful of times and played the first straight ahead gig. Holy shit. And Billy Psycho was the guy who tried out. He tried out, but we didn't take him because he couldn't play that.

Starting point is 00:18:55 You did Armand playing hitting stuff for the first time over Billy Psycho? Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. You know, Billy was more of a traditional drummer. You know what I mean? It didn't. It wouldn't really work. It was too, it was so fast.

Starting point is 00:19:09 Was Armand already not singing in rest in pieces at this time? He was, at that point, I think he was just playing guitar for rest in pieces and he switched over to guitar and vocals. Because originally they had a guy named Rob Calhoun, Rest his Soul singing. And Armand was a guitar player. I think at that point, Armand was singing and playing guitar. So Armand is just getting greedy. I got to do it all.

Starting point is 00:19:31 Yeah, he was like, you know, he was like a real, he was into it, man. He was like so into it. I love about the stories about any bustling beginning scene is it's pickup, if their pickup games, it's like who's around? Like who's around? Totally. Let's get him in. Before we move on too far, Craig, do you remember, you mentioned going to that first CB show.

Starting point is 00:19:51 Do you remember who played? AOD, adrenaline overdose. Bedlam. And, no, no, it might have been bed. It was either Bedlam or was bodies and Pam. I don't remember, I'd have a body some panic. And this band opened up malignant tumor. It was like that first show maybe.

Starting point is 00:20:16 And it was this guy, Jimmy, he had a big scar over his eye. And, you know, when he came out, he's like, hey, you guys might know me from hanging out in the park. I'm Jimmy, I'm friends with Roger and those guys. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And they played, and I liked them. They were like real simple. They had like three-core songs.

Starting point is 00:20:30 It was like early, it was like 84 hardcore. Three-core songs, like, you know, like mental abuse. AOD, you know, like with these bands like, like a malignant tumor opening up. It was like early hardcore. The whole place smelled like clove cigarettes. Early, 84 hard. The clove cigarettes have really sucked with you. Everything smelled like lobe cigarettes.

Starting point is 00:20:51 And people either had a shaved head or a mohawk and they all had on trench coats and Doc Martins. Sick. That's totally early. And you're in. I'm in. And the Rock Hotel shows really smelled like Clove cigarette. You go to the Rock Hotel in like 84.

Starting point is 00:21:07 It just smelled like Clove cigarettes. 84, 85, everything smelled like clove cigarettes. Now, Craig, do you hate the smell of clove cigarettes so much that you become straight edge? I don't know about that, but it definitely reminds me of like being like a scared but thrilled little kid. Yeah, sure. Just moshing, but being like, God, it fucking stinks. Yeah, you know, the first show I ever went to, I went to Ceebies and I walk in and there's

Starting point is 00:21:31 like maybe 40, 60 people there. Everyone's got the trench coats. It smells like clove cigarettes. and I walk in and I see big Charlie Hankins and he looks at me he goes kid kid you finally came to a show and he grabs me and he goes good news hugging me saying hello and he says to everybody goes

Starting point is 00:21:49 yo you see it was in between bands he goes before the first band started he goes you see this kid this kid's my friend he goes we all look out for this kid he's a good kid so then during that show I was moshing and he took me on his shoulders and we did chicken fights like old school chicken fights and right away everybody who's my friend and uh you know i became friends with stigma i don't know if it was that

Starting point is 00:22:10 day or the next time i went but you know right away i was friends with everybody they took you they took you under their wing big charlie gave me this blessing i mean what we want you're the opposite of mark porter's experience yeah showing up with metal heads getting his ass kicked wow that is really beautiful yeah so you're 84 you're in a year later same same year you're doing NYC mayhem uh a year later 40 years ago straight ahead is born. Yeah, yeah. And remains to this day one of the most beloved,

Starting point is 00:22:41 influential, and still underrated short-lived hardcore bands of all time. You know, we never really, it happened then and it was never really pushed again. So it was like very much that time period, you know? Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt. No, no, I want to hear it. You did

Starting point is 00:22:59 this right here. Oh, that I love that one. And then you did one more record and basically called it today. Craig, is there any hope in ever seeing straight ahead again? April 25th, we're playing in Brooklyn at the Brooklyn Monarch as main support for Gorilla Biscuits. Yes, we've decided to play again. And we are doing that. we've rehearsed it sounds great Tommy totally has his act together vocally he's been practicing for months we've been talking about doing this for years and we always were like i was on tour me and arm on but like we don't really have time and you know Tommy was busy with work and it's just it never really worked out and uh now that Lou god bless him you know it is is is not playing right now

Starting point is 00:23:57 because he's recovering. We just figured, you know, if we're ever going to do it, now is the time. And Tommy's in a good place. He's a family man. And he was like, he wanted to do it so bad. He's like, I want to do this. I want to do this. We didn't close that outright.

Starting point is 00:24:16 He's like, I want to do it. We got to do it. He goes, I want the opportunity to set it straight so that it is right forever. Like, in other words, we ended, we broke up. We should have kept going. We never did any, we didn't really continue in any manner. So he was really excited. I said, listen, Tommy, here's the deal.

Starting point is 00:24:37 Work on the material. We'll rehearse. We'll see how it sounds. And we rehearsed and Tommy sang every song without any problem. Good timing sounded great. We ran through the set like three times. He didn't, his voice didn't fail. The next day I called him, he talked fine.

Starting point is 00:24:55 He's like, when you told me there's a possibility we can do this I've been practicing like multiple times per week for the past bunch of months. So he's in shape. We sounded really good. Robin Armagh, it's the original lineup. I think it's going to be really good. It just feels like something we can do.

Starting point is 00:25:12 It feels right. Like when we rehearse, I get like goosebumps. It's like really fun. So I'm excited for it, you know? For the first time since 1988, straight ahead is back. You heard it here.

Starting point is 00:25:25 And it's, I think it's going to be really. good. I guarantee you it's going to be really good. So it's you, Tommy, Armand, and Rob. Yes. Yes. Same, same exact group. Same setup. We sound good. Like, we play those old songs way better than we used to. It sounds the same, but it's more, it's more, it sounds like clearer. You can like hear the parts. We're not rushing through it as much. We're still playing super fast, but the backup sound clearer. Good.

Starting point is 00:25:54 You know, it's, we, the sounds are nice and crisp. I think it's going to be great. I'm so excited for this. I can't wait. I mean, you and you and I wanted to say it here first with you guys. Thank you, sir. I'm a fan of the show and you guys get it. That means the world.

Starting point is 00:26:09 We love straight ahead. Yep. Obviously. That's amazing. It's well documented. We got to get it on streaming now. The people need to working on that. Need to have it.

Starting point is 00:26:17 I was waiting until, you know, the show was announced, which is happening. earlier, which happened just earlier today. It got announced today. Got announced today. And so I got the streaming in the works and all kinds of stuff I'm working on. We have social media that we just set up. I set up a Facebook and Instagram straight ahead, NYHC. Beautiful.

Starting point is 00:26:46 On both of them. Unbelievable. Let me ask you. This is something I was wondering about Little Insider, baseball for everybody out there. We knew all that coming into the show. Come on. But I was wondering, yeah, part of, part of straight ahead's appeal, at least back, especially back before streaming was even the thing, was the fact that like you kind of had to know to know about straight ahead. Like it was like, you had to be pretty into hardcore to know about straight ahead or rest in pieces or like some of these bands that were pretty short lived,

Starting point is 00:27:19 but we're really, really fucking cool. And I'm just curious, are you at all, like, worried about, because, like, obviously, you have to go to YouTube or something to listen to the EP, you know, like, is that, are you worried about losing any of that,

Starting point is 00:27:38 like mystique or the mysteriousness or anything like that? I put this off. People all throughout the years have been asking me, put the record out, I always say, no, I want to leave it where it is. It's special. It's going to be the unsung thing.

Starting point is 00:27:49 like, you know, almost like a minor threat, but less known. You know what I mean? Not to compare it to minor threat, which is like the ultimate, but you get the idea. You know, I was like, no, I'm just going to leave it where it is. It's going to be one of those rare bands that never, you know, that you had to be there and it's hard to find. But honestly, like, I, this is, it feels right. It never felt right. Now it feels right, you know?

Starting point is 00:28:14 It just feels like it's going to work. I know we're going to be really good. Will it be exactly the same? I don't think so because we're not little kids anymore. But I know that I'm thrilled to play that material, and I can still play it with that. I still get that adrenaline rush where I feel coming out of me. That stuff just gets me.

Starting point is 00:28:34 You know, I love, I always, it's my own band that I wrote the songs, but I still love that stuff, you know. And you've been Craig ahead for 40 years, you know. Yeah, well, Tommy always called me Greg, with a G still to say Greg Greg Greg hey Greg

Starting point is 00:28:49 I'm like But he one day He went up a show And he goes he goes arm He goes arm and hammer on drums And he goes And on bass He looked at me

Starting point is 00:28:59 He started laughing And he goes He goes Greg ahead And I just laughed And it's stuck ever since Wow Let's get into The discography

Starting point is 00:29:08 Here straight ahead Started with Was there a cassette demo Before those songs Were On the war zone 7-8? No, that's the, that's the recording of this is it. That's it.

Starting point is 00:29:19 We did it. Why? On a seven-inch comp. Every other band here's got one, two, one band has four songs. They're very short. Straight ahead's got nine songs on a seven-inch comp. Why? Hardcore.

Starting point is 00:29:35 That's why hardcore. That's why. We were like, yo, who puts out two songs? That's like, you know, what rock and metal bands do. Let's put a whole bunch of stuff on. We just blasted it out. We recorded 12 songs, but we put nine a month. Right, yeah, 12 songs are on a cassette somewhere.

Starting point is 00:29:52 Twelve songs were in that session. That session was three hours in a studio uptown. And it was the guy that, the guy, what's his name, that did the bad brand stuff later on. What the hell was his name? He did some sick of it all stuff, too, good guy. A little tiny place, little singular room behind, and a little glass booth. And we just sat up and played, and we, you know, the band played. Tommy actually played drums on that

Starting point is 00:30:17 because Armand had just, you know, XXX, X, X, X, X, X, X, drums. So that's Tommy playing. You get the look on your face, you get it. No credit for Armand. But he didn't play on it. Tommy played on it. So Armand, you know, we looked like that guy,

Starting point is 00:30:34 we'll just do it with Tommy because, you know, Armour was so fresh to drumming. And three hours, 25 bucks an hour, 75 bucks. We played the songs, like all pretty much in one take. we might have went over, oh, let me do that one again. We did it. And then as soon as we were done, Tommy sang and Rob and myself, we stood on the side, Tommy's side, and just yelled into the mic, the backups as we went.

Starting point is 00:30:56 So you're going, straight edge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right next to him. Yell and spit in his face, you know what I mean? Screaming it out. So being an early straight edge band, how straight edge was this band? Did anybody in hardcore in 1986 look at. straight edge as a concept as like this a big lifetime commitment like it is now you know the own like straight edge was like uh youth of today had their seven inch out we loved minor threat and that

Starting point is 00:31:24 was like Tommy's thing Tommy would like uncover he'd get really into an aspect of the scene and he'd go in all the way and then he'd find something else and he'd go into that he wouldn't like leave behind what he did but he was one of those guys that like dug in with both heels so uh you know And I was like, I don't want to call the bad straight ahead. I'm not straight edge. Like I would drink beer. I was like, what are you doing? And he's like, no, it'll be great.

Starting point is 00:31:49 Trust me. I was like, well, you know, I like, I like, I like, I like, I, you know, within three months, I wasn't drinking beer. Back then probably three weeks. So I was technically straight. I was straight. I'm straight edge now. So it kind of worked out, you know.

Starting point is 00:32:02 Okay. How long were you straight edge at the time? Oh, for a while. Probably I was, I was straight edge. Once I started becoming straight edge, I was straight edge. straight edge for years until stigma had me smoke a joint with him. That'll get you.

Starting point is 00:32:18 He'll do it. That'll get you. Probably got me drunk to, you know what I mean? Who is one step ahead records? That was a guy named Mike Rubin from California. Tarzana, that's the Valley, baby. Yeah, he came to New York. He was a friend of Tom. He's like a

Starting point is 00:32:33 tape trading pen pal. He came to New York and came to all rehearsals. Tom and he's like, yeah, we're going to put out a record with him. I'm going to do a seven-inch comp. And I remember he to New York and he came to a rehearsal. We rehearsed at the old giant on 38th Street. He's back with like 85 or whatever. And he came in and I met him off the train because I took the seven train in from

Starting point is 00:32:55 Queens or the F train, the seven to the F. So I took maybe back then 38th Street was probably just the, just a seven train. Whatever, I don't remember. But I met him at the train and we walked to the rehearsal. And there was a guy, a kid, a young guy doing the shell game, you know, with the three shells and he stopped and the guy goes, yo man, which one's another? And he looked at the guy, I go, don't talk to him.

Starting point is 00:33:17 And the guy looked at me and he goes, yo man, don't speak for him. He's a grown man. Maybe we're like 15. And I go Mike, I go Mike, don't answer him. And he's like, the guy got like a little loud with me. And I was like, I was like, yeah, yeah, I know this. You know, I like, the guy was trying to bait him.

Starting point is 00:33:33 And I was like, oh, I know what's up? And I said, Mike, just walk away. And Mike was like that one. And he won. And the guy handed him like, you know, five bucks. And I was like, Mike, he's got you now. I go, I go, give him the five bucks and walk away. Just give it back to him.

Starting point is 00:33:48 And the guy was arguing with me. And he wound up losing like $100 and like, you know how that goes. It was like a minute and a half. That's like, 800 bucks now. Back then, yeah. And I was like, he was all upset. I go, Mike, man, what did I tell you? I go, you don't, you don't do that.

Starting point is 00:34:03 I go. But anyway, really nice guys. Those guys are good. Fell into it. The guy was an expert. You know what I mean? I was a skinny little 15-year-old kid. It was like, you know, three dudes with them, giant dudes.

Starting point is 00:34:14 I was like sort of like, one of my real. Yeah, he got it, buddy. Yeah, he got it. Yeah, that's analog. They got me at the Berlin Wall bad one time. Analog slot machines, dude. That's all it is. In Germany, huh?

Starting point is 00:34:25 Wow. Oh, yeah. And he was good. And at the end, I was like, you're good. And he went, I am very good. You know what I remember too? I remember, like, when you were young, when I first started going to England, the guys would hang outside like the strip clubs.

Starting point is 00:34:38 And they'd be like, come in, come in. have a drink oh dude i knew that these other bands we would tour with these kids i'd be like whatever you do don't answer that guy don't engage him just keep walking and one guy in a band went in sat down they gave him a drink and you know you got to give me 800 bucks or 500 bucks whatever and they took them to the ATM and they like beat them up and i was like yeah what did i tell you like i was like you you're going to lose all your my goes it's like giant german like gangster guys they're going to be what are you know what i mean he's like a little kid he was like what i was like what I was like, I told you, man.

Starting point is 00:35:12 Don't do that. So simultaneously, with straight ahead is existing. You got the end of the war zone stuff. You're riding breakaway. Simultaneously, you're playing bass on a little band called The Youth of Today. Tell me about this time of your life. You played bass on Breakdown the Walls. Yeah, you know what's crazy about that?

Starting point is 00:35:33 Like back then, like from 80, from the middle of 84 to like 87 was, you know, whatever. for a couple of short years, it seemed like a decade or two. Things happened so fast back then. Back then, a summer into the fall was like four years now. It's so insane. What happened was Tommy became friends with Ray. I met Purcell when Violent Children played Seabees. They were made support for a big New York band show at Seabies.

Starting point is 00:36:07 and I met Purcell and he was cool. I liked the way he moshed. I was like, you got style, you know? I like that. I feel that way today about some people. And he was,

Starting point is 00:36:17 you know, he was, I was like, check this guy out. Like, I thought he was cool. You know what I mean? And so what happened was they became friends with Tommy as well.

Starting point is 00:36:24 So they said, hey, we need a drummer. So Tommy started jamming with you for today. And Gavin was going to play bass. Gavin, Gavin Byrne was going to play bass. Because he knew all those guys.

Starting point is 00:36:36 He knew Prisell. from upstate somehow. They, he lived upstate for a while, Gavin. What happened was Gavin was going to play bass. For whatever reason, Gavin didn't play bass.

Starting point is 00:36:45 And Tommy said, hey, look, if I'm going to play drums, get Craig to play bass. Craig, you know, he knows the seven and he,

Starting point is 00:36:51 Tommy is your fucking boy. Tommy is my boy. Tommy's one of the best guys in the world. People that don't know Tommy. He is one of the coolest guys ever. He, he is so, you could,

Starting point is 00:37:04 Tommy could do something wrong, right? Tommy could like do something. You know, most people, when your friend does something and messes up and you go, yo, what do you do? He tries to get out of it. Tommy will be like, yeah, I fucked that up. And I'll be like, why'd you do that?

Starting point is 00:37:16 He'd be like, you know, back in the old days, he'd like, well, I was drunk. You know what I mean? But he will, he'll like mess something up and own it. Like he, he doesn't, the guy doesn't lie. I've seen him protect people when they were wrong, but he'd say to the other people, this guy's all right. He made a mistake. He got to let him go.

Starting point is 00:37:35 Like he's, he's your friend. Tommy's a friend. He's honest. He'll take fault when he does something wrong. Tommy's one of the most straight up honest people I've ever known. Like he's a no bullshit type guy. And he looks out for you. Tommy's great. I love him. That's why when we were talking about this and I saw the state he was in and how enthusiastic he was and how his life is, I was like, as long as his voice, if he can sing, physically sing the songs, now is the time to do it.

Starting point is 00:38:02 I'm glad to hear he's in a good place now. So he gets you in youth of today. He gets me in youth of today. So Ray writes me a letter, right? I have a letter somewhere from Ray. And he's like, it's a long like two or three page letter saying how we can do great things together. You know, you join this band will be a one strong force.

Starting point is 00:38:26 We're all on the same page. It's like a really nice letter. Yeah. He writes me like this inspirational letter. It's almost like a sermon and like by a deacon in the church or something. And I wound up playing in the band. So that's what happened. Yeah, try it out.

Starting point is 00:38:39 How long were you in the band and did you contribute to the writing on Breakdown the Wall? I was in the band for probably a year. It seemed like a lot more. I think I started playing with them in like maybe March of 86 or at least that's when Ray moved to New York and we started playing shows. I played with them all through 87. We went to California. I thought it was the summer of 86, but Bressel straightened me out on that.

Starting point is 00:39:02 We went in the winter of 86 into the turn. turn of 87 or maybe right when it turned to 87. We were out in California and I played with them then and Breakdown the Walls had already come out. So I played with them for about a year. It was fun. Did you write any of a breakdown wall? No, but what happened was I didn't write any of it because they already had all the material. I wrote a song that was going to be on Breakdown the Walls. It was called New Beginning. And originally the label was going to be called New Beginning and said they went on wishing well. Right. So the New Beginning thing never happened. And so I wrote a song called New Beginning.

Starting point is 00:39:37 We played it two or three times at shows, but we wound up dropping it. They didn't put it on the record. And so New Beginning is a straight ahead song because it was never played live, but we had the song. And when we started playing again in 87 after they broke up, New Beginning was a straight ahead song. But we recorded it without vocals at that point. There's like a weird demo somewhere that nobody's ever heard.

Starting point is 00:40:05 And so New Beginning is one of the songs we're going to actually play at this show. Okay, cool. It's like a fast, hardcore song with a big, big breakdown, big SSD type breakdown. Sing a one. Perfect. What more do you want? So let me ask you a couple questions. I know you said it was already prepared, but I got to wonder with your style in straight ahead.

Starting point is 00:40:28 The song stabbed in the back. It's got a little do do do do ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. it's got a little bass run in there. Did you bring that to the table or was that already written? Actually, it was already written. Ray wrote it. He wrote it kind of with the bass run. I tailored it a little bit.

Starting point is 00:40:44 Yeah. Put it like a little tail on it. Yeah. It's basically, you know, it's basically something that Ray wrote. Ray wrote pretty much all of those songs musically. Wow. Ray could write. He can write.

Starting point is 00:40:54 Yeah, good for you, right. And he knows like, he knows like some, he knows his way around an instrument a little bit. He's like, oh, that's major. That's minor. I'm like, oh, you know that. Okay. Um, there is a one of my favorite, it seems real early youth today, but when we're talking, as you said, how seasons go by in the span of years. Um, it's, it's you guys playing at CB's and you are as skin head up as possible. I think you're exed up and you're skanking to all the parts.

Starting point is 00:41:29 And it's just like the coolest style. it's the coolest style I can like connect with personally while being the oldest version of it do you know what I mean like the first example I can pinpoint of like that's a guy oh that's what all my peers and I'm trying to do that's what I'm trying to do so I want to know

Starting point is 00:41:48 what where are you getting that from how are you being like I'm going to skank during this what we now call youth crew part on stage first let me say I love your enthusiasm and that's why I wanted to be on this show because you guys like have that little kid enthusiasm I have the same thing. I was like, these guys, like, we'd be playing in the sandbox.

Starting point is 00:42:06 You know what I mean? Like, it's totally not bad. Hey, this episode we're going to call Spirit of YouTube, you know what I mean? Because we have studied these things. This is the sandbox. This is it. You know, like, I love that, that can't close my eyes, seven inch. And I saw them that when they played C-Bs, the first time they played in New York,

Starting point is 00:42:21 they opened up for, I think it was a Gnostic Front. And I thought they were great. And I moshed and sang along the whole show, you know? And I was, like, just excited. like and these guys like they would go off on stage and i would go off on stage and i just wanted to like i would get on stage even later with sycamber all and we first went to europe like in my mind i was like i'm from new york hardcore i'm going to show these people what this is like people they're not going to they've never seen this we're going to represent where we come from it was like pride i was

Starting point is 00:42:52 like this is i was like this is new york hardcore they're going to see what this is now is that because people are like, these guys are from Connecticut and to some extent? Well, I don't know about that. I mean, they moved to New York and they were into it. So I wasn't really thinking like necessarily whether. I'm just talking in general. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:43:09 But that band, I was like, I was like, we're going to come out like on fire. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you did. Not to necessarily impress everyone, partially, but to impress ourselves to be the hardcore bands.

Starting point is 00:43:23 You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So did the breakdown on the walls recording process give you a perspective to which to approach breakaway recording breakaway was it like damn this is what this could be i need to take this next one not really i feel like uh with yutha today when they were in the studio but the one record i did with them they didn't really care too much about they didn't really know much about recording or uh getting sounds in

Starting point is 00:43:49 the studio they were just like yeah let's just play and make a record they weren't it sounds insanely good well it's it's it it's it it's it it's it's it worked out well, but like I think with straight ahead with like Rob and Armand and Tommy, we were more like we understood the studio a little better. We were a little more like, I don't want to say we were more

Starting point is 00:44:12 musical. We were a little more on, we were, we were more players, I think. Sure. Sure. You know, we were more like players, I guess. So Armand quickly became good enough to record drums? The first show we played. he was pretty good i mean he used to it was weird but armand's like a very talented guy armand's one of

Starting point is 00:44:33 those guys and he's a great guitar player he plays bass really well and uh like there are like two sick of it all songs where he actually played bass and nobody knows it on records because there were songs he wrote and we didn't he wrote him at the last minute and he was like you want me to show you the song and i'd be like just let's not take the hour to do it i go you just play the bass track you know what i mean so he did that on like two songs over the course of sick of it all Dr. Midnight coming in and finishing it up. He's a guy. He just pops right in. He's very good at everything.

Starting point is 00:45:03 So he picked the drums right away. They drive me crazy. Go to guitar, singing, drums, podcasting, co-hosting. They drive me nuts. They're the worst. I'm not done with you to today, though. Yeah, I got a couple more questions. Yeah, this guy's a drummer, but he's a guitar player,

Starting point is 00:45:17 but I think of him more as a drummer. He's one of those guys. He's one of those guys. He's just one of those guys. Was it the breakdown-the-wall session where Ray stopped singing and people open the door and he was passed out? Yes, I was there when he passed out. He was jumping up and down, and I was like,

Starting point is 00:45:34 why is this guy jumping up and down? Just sing the song. You don't have to jump up and down, but he was into it, you know? I was like, all right. You can hear it in the session. Yeah, he jumps up. He's jumping up, and you can see him from the chest up,

Starting point is 00:45:44 you know, because he's in the booth, and he's jumping up and all of a sudden he jumps up, and he doesn't come back up, and he doesn't sing the rest of the song. I'm like, what's this guy doing? And he's like, he got lightheaded and went down. It's great. And now, Right.

Starting point is 00:45:59 You can't fake that. Oh, it's funny. My last question for you today, as people who were not involved at the time, and you were in what, like, because we obviously, we talked to stigma, we talked to DeJan and Tom,

Starting point is 00:46:12 and we did a small bit of our New York hardcore episodes. The, but they were kind of like, stigma was already around. And like some of these guys were already around, but you were there during a period of time that like a lot of us and my peers consider like the New York hardcore golden age like the starting of all these bands and all these stories and all the shit we know with youth today specifically

Starting point is 00:46:37 we're going to talk a lot more about all other New York hardcore with with youth today specifically did you feel as though this was a band because they seem in hindsight to be starting a movement to be doing the youth crew to be doing a thing was that a feeling that was happening at the time where you felt as though oh they're doing it's more than just music It's this vegetarianism and the straight-edge thing and the youth thing. The symbolism. Yeah, it kind of just built slowly. It was like, you know, like, oh, I'm vegetarian.

Starting point is 00:47:06 Oh, yeah? Well, let's eat. Okay. And, you know, we'd eat something vegetarian. And then like, hey, like the kid from bold would be like, I'm going to cook. And he cook something vegetarian. And I'd be like, oh, I'm going to make that. And I'd like go home and make it from my mother and brother.

Starting point is 00:47:19 And he'd be like, oh, that was really good. Cook again next week. Okay. And it just took like it took its shape. You know, Ray was very much like a guy always experimenting with what's next. And he was very much, people listened to him. He had like the cult of personality thing going on. So he had a strong personality.

Starting point is 00:47:40 So he was basically the driving force behind a lot of that type of stuff. You know, and I realized it was happening. But when you're in the middle of it, you don't see it as how it looks, how it's going to look. There's no hindsight there. Yeah, there's no hindsight yet. But yeah, that was like a big thing. And a lot of people were for it and a lot of people were against it. A lot of the old New York heads would be like, what are you doing in that band, kid?

Starting point is 00:48:03 You know, like, you're like, you're like a hardcore guy, like one of us. You're doing that. I go, listen, man, I'm not shutting the door on anything. It's great. I love it. I go, oh, the band's great. But, you know, this guy's saying this and that. And I was like, he can say what he wants.

Starting point is 00:48:16 That's what we're all here. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. There was a pushing a pull kind of, you know, there was like some varying things going on, you know? So was it like the old heads being like these new guys coming. around and setting all these rules. People weren't against them, but they were like some little,

Starting point is 00:48:32 sometimes the envelope got pushed a little too far. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like one time you said today played and Murphy's Law was playing and they were like, they love Murphy's Law, but they kind of almost talk shit on Murphy's Law. And I was like, yo, can't do that. I was like, this is my favorite band ever. I was like, I'll be up there with an X singing about fucking, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:48:54 I'll be up there when an ex, like, you know, watching Joe Bruno do burnt toast. I was like, this is the greatest bad ever. And they would laugh because they were all friends. There was no like actual beef. But I was like, you know, like, come on now. Let's not go. I'm not getting involved in that. Murphy's law.

Starting point is 00:49:09 Come on. Straight edge kids with exes, sing it along. You know, it's a Murphy's law. 100%. To me, to me, that's like the most hardcore thing that could ever happen. And, you know, at the same time, Murphy's Law is later, they're wearing floor punch shirts later. so they're doing the same thing, you know?

Starting point is 00:49:25 And lastly, Craig, Craig ahead. Were you part of the youth crew? I was for 86, yeah. I was 80s. And then after I quit the band, I remember it said on the wall at the anthrax, not the one, not the little one in the little basement one, the next one, the kind of bigger one.

Starting point is 00:49:44 And it said in the backstage on the wall, it said Craig ahead, put an X on his hand, but didn't take the oath. And everyone pointed out. look, that's like Purcell talking shit on you and we would just laugh. Yeah, but then, so do you quit youth today to like take straight ahead more seriously? Yeah. What happened was I was playing with those guys.

Starting point is 00:50:07 You know, it was a little bit of the how, you know, it was getting a little more closed. Like, we're like this and this is what it is. And I was like, well, that's cool. But I was a little more, you know, it's hard to explain. Blaine. Like it felt like it was turning into like more of a dress code and like a way it had to be than a way it was. It had a little bit of that vibe. And I went to California with those guys and we had a good time. But, you know, I didn't really fit in with them back then. I was a little younger and I was a quieter. So I felt like I wasn't really what I brought to the table. I think they appreciated it. But I had more music in me and I had a lot. I felt like, okay, this isn't really my band. And I'm the kind of guy when I have a band. I write. I'm like very, very involved. You know what I mean? I'm like musical. So I'm always doing music and doing all, you know, I'm very like, if I'm in your band,

Starting point is 00:51:08 like I'm totally involved. Yeah. I mean? So, uh, I just said, hey, I'm going to concentrate on straight ahead. And I left. And I remember. So at this at, at the same time, uh, I think Richie would leave to do the same thing with Underdog. Basically, yeah. Yeah. What did the community think of Underdog at the time? Because people in bands played so many different roles. Yeah. Do your peers hear Richie sing and think, yo, where did this beautiful voice come from?

Starting point is 00:51:37 Well, Richie Richie was always a good writer and a good player and, you know, had a good voice. Richie's great and stuff is really good. Like I remember like I love the numbsculls. The numskulls were great. They were like a stripped down underdog. And then they, they called themselves true blue when they first came out. The demo was originally like the true blue demo. Yeah, the true blue song.

Starting point is 00:52:00 Yeah. And then it became like underdog. But I loved underdog. So did everybody. Everyone was like, you know, underdog's great. You know what I mean? But Richie was like a part of the scene, obviously. He was embedded in the scene.

Starting point is 00:52:11 So, you know, that was beautiful back then. People had different styles. You know, you had Murphy's Law. You had agnostic front. you had sheer terror. You know, you had your void and you had, you know, like, what's a band to describe, like a light poppy band in hardcore? I'm running to tip my tongue.

Starting point is 00:52:35 Anyway, you had bands like void. And then you had, like, you know, a lot more light bands. And that was the beauty of it. Everyone did their own thing. Yeah. When you heard, what were your first thoughts when you heard into another? I thought it was good and they're experimenting. I feel like it danced around a lot, but I understood what they were doing.

Starting point is 00:52:56 They were feeling themselves out to see what they could do. It was brave. Some serious musicianship as well. I was an agnostic front at that point. And being an agnostic front, we were locked into what we were doing. So I was still locked into like straight up hardcore. But being able to do that, it's a good thing. You know, I write a bunch of material still to this day.

Starting point is 00:53:17 I have tons of acoustic songs and stuff that's like almost like like pop anthems. I write all kinds of weird stuff. You can hear that. I'm sick of it all. Yeah, I write stuff that nobody's ever heard that, you know, I like write acoustic songs that are just like really like dreamy and soft. Like I like to play the instrument. I'm like a musician, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:53:38 Sure. So like I get it. They're basically just saying, hey, all this stuff that I do on my own that would never fly in hardcore, I'm going to go out and play it to the. the world which is pretty fucking cool man yeah yeah um so let's let's go back to straight ahead mode here you leave you today you're taking straight ahead seriously so let's talk about the breakaway 12 inch tell me about memories that come to mind writing and recording it do you do you have any memories from from the actual session totally uh i just remember

Starting point is 00:54:08 tommy being like he's he would spring stuff on you tommy he's like hey we're gonna record uh we're gonna do we're gonna do an ep we got to do an ep and i did I'd be like, what do you mean? They're like, no, we're going to do it at night, though. I'd be like, what do you mean at night? Like three in the morning. I'm like, what? So Chuck Vow, rest his soul, beautiful, beautiful person.

Starting point is 00:54:26 God bless him. Chuck Vow worked at Chung King. So he was like, listen, you guys can record at Chong King, but it has to be after the place is completely closed down. I'm going to do it on the sly, you know? Yeah. So like, all you got to pay for is like the tape. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:54:42 You got to like buy the reel. So it was like a few hundred bucks or whatever it was back then to buy the reels, you know? It was like, it was like, you know, two inch to half inch or whatever. Okay. Old school. So we went in three in the morning and we were like exhausted. And I remember like Armand being like, I'm so tired. I can't play drums.

Starting point is 00:55:00 I should be sleeping. And we did it and, you know, we recorded it. And we were like super, super tired. And we did it over a couple of nights. We'd go in for like an hour or two. And then we went in like one other time for an hour or two and did it. Maybe two times. And is this Armand's first time recording drums?

Starting point is 00:55:16 Yes, first time recording drums. But he'd been in the band for, I don't even know when, I can't remember when that was recorded, how much later have been the end of war zone sessions. But can't have been that late. I mean, it all happened so fast. That was probably within a year. Yeah, right. But it seemed like a lifetime back then.

Starting point is 00:55:35 But so we recorded at night, and I remember Chuck was doing it. And Chuck was a guy that, like, when I was a kid, like before that during that time, he called me and be like, what he'd be? doing. I'd be like nothing. He'd be like, you're playing that show on Sunday? I'd be like, yeah, he'd be like, I'm going to bring my amp. And I'd be like, but you're not playing. He'd like, I'm going to bring it anyway. And I'd be like, I'll borrow an amp. He'd be like, no, I'm going to bring my amp. He would just, he knew I didn't have gear and he would bring me equipment. And he would always make sure that I was like, you, I had stuff. He was like,

Starting point is 00:56:07 you're okay with that show? He would like, call me to ask me. And he would bring the gear to help me. He was such a good guy, great guy. And he just looked out for everybody. He was like the sweetest, greatest guy ever. And, you know, I have this thing called the BM, which is the bass mafia. And it's like an organization I have with base players and we bring people in. And it's like it's like not really a secret organization. But we always say, oh, BM. Like, it's base players looking out for base players.

Starting point is 00:56:33 There's tons of people. We got tons of people all over the world. Lemmy was being. It's a union. It's like a base union. You know, we had some big guys and, you know, it's mostly hardcore guys. But Chuck was the original guy that like embodied the BM. The BM just means like, I help you, you help me, we look out for each other, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:56:51 Yeah. Base players for bass players for drummers and whoever else is cool. You know what I mean? Gotcha. So Chuck would always like, he was original BM, like, you wouldn't even ask him and he would take care of you. Wow. Greatest dude ever. How much of the tone, the bass tone in particular on breakaway is one of the most iconic parts of this record.

Starting point is 00:57:11 How much of that was you? How much of that was Chuck? We had an SVT and I just got a sound and Chuck, we played it. And Chuck would be like, hey, come in here and listen. Armand, play the bass. Armand would always like reference and I'd listen. And Armine would always say he would goose it up because it would feel greasy afterwards. He'd like, you killed my strings because he's got the sweaty hands.

Starting point is 00:57:33 So he would always goose up the base. I'd have to like change the strings. So we just honed it in. He'd like, all right, it's a little thin here. Let's do a little bit here on the board. He kind of taught me how to work through the board a little bit, Chuck. And we would like mess with the amp and like, hey, I'm going to pull the, I'm going to pull the mic back a little.

Starting point is 00:57:49 So we just kind of both honed it in together because he was a bass player until we got the sound that I wanted. I really love the way the end of wars on stuff sounds as well. I think that it's good. It's like my action's a little too low and I'm playing a little too hard, you know? It's so funny that you can just hear that. You can hear it. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:03 And still think about it 42. Yeah. Yeah. I can totally like I, you know, red. I just got red seven. up before we started rehearsing straight ahead and it feels and sounds exactly the same.

Starting point is 00:58:16 The actions, the action's not too low but the pickups are a little too high so it has that like hot sound. Yeah. It sounds great. So we will be hearing straight ahead in its pure as form. I believe so, yeah. I mean, I think it's going to be really good. I mean, the show has to happen

Starting point is 00:58:32 still, but the way it sounds in rehearsal, it's going to be great. You know, we need to rehearse more, you know? Sure. But we have months until what happens. We're going to rehearse like crazy. It's interesting, too, because in a genre that you might think is super guitar driven,

Starting point is 00:58:48 the guitars on this recording are the quietest thing. You do a low pass, you don't hear guitars. You hear drums, bass, and vocals. Until it's going, manor, little, little. Yeah, sure. But, like, there's a couple times where it's only guitars, the dynamic change is crazy.

Starting point is 00:59:04 Das can play. First of all, Rob, Rob, his nickname is Das, D-A-S. We call him Das. It's always been his nickname, but Bass can play like crazy. Bass is such a good guitar player. I've covered straight ahead and there's shit I can't do. Really? Playing guitar, you mean?

Starting point is 00:59:21 Yeah. Yeah, he does a little stuff. Yeah. I mean, I played with Rob back in like 1983. I played, I used to jam with Rob. I met him through like an ad in a music paper, like the Long Island Press or whatever the hell it was. Whatever, he put an ad looking for bass player and I answered it, like, to play the

Starting point is 00:59:40 play like punk and metal or whatever, you know what I mean? And I answered it. I met, though, I met up with him and Richie did, the first bass player for Sick of All. Richie was the other guitar player. And when I took the train to Long Island City to rehearse at the old Roxy Studio, Mike Sankowitz and Pete, Sikovato, Pete Kohler, picked me up at the train. And I was like, what are you guys doing here?

Starting point is 01:00:01 Because I knew them from the neighborhood because I was in a band in like 82 with a guy that lived down the block from Pete and Lou. I used to, this guy, John Pardini, he used to jamming his bass. spent. I was like 13. I was like, what are you guys doing here? They're like, we're friends with these guys. I can't believe it's you. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, are these guys good? They're like, wait till you see these guys. And I was like, wow. Okay. So we had this band Smegba early on. And we never played a show, but we rehearsed, you know. Okay. We didn't have like a real singer or drummer. We kind of almost did, but it was like, it never really panned out.

Starting point is 01:00:34 You know, we had show was booked. It never happened. Wow. Clean them out. So six songs, six minutes. That's breakaway. Do you want to talk about the writing of the actual songs? Is that you and Tommy together for the most part? Yeah. That was the Tommy actually wrote.

Starting point is 01:00:53 He came up with the idea for right idea. Okay. And breakaway. Tommy came in with the both of those kind of. And he didn't really play an instrument, but he was like talking it to Armand. And I wasn't there or something. something. I was like doing something. I think I was playing a show or maybe I was away or something.

Starting point is 01:01:13 And Armand was like, you know, Tommy wrote the bulk of these two songs. They're pretty good. And I was like, oh, cool. I listened to them. I was like, that's good. So I came in and I like, changed them around a little and messed with him a little. But, you know, he basically came up with the, the basic idea for breakaway and right idea. And I added in parts and arranged them and stuff like that. Whose idea was it to rewrite? What song is it that is straight ahead again? is it think right which think right whose idea was it to turn think right into straight ahead you know Tommy when he did that it was like a new song when we recorded it was like a fairly new song so Tommy just was like he just wrote that oh think right like that was like the working title

Starting point is 01:01:57 but you know the band was called straight ahead and it said straight ahead and so I was like songs go straight ahead why why does he say think right he goes oh I don't know I just wrote that like like straight ahead he's like yeah you're right okay it's just like a mess up you know what I mean but it's weird but the song is like musically different on the OG version right it's like the like the straight ahead song is is inside of it yes all it is in the beginning right after the slow part it comes in with the punches bat ban ban that the ban that ban that ban the and then on the EP version we ring it bam bam bam bam bam so we just did that we did like extended ring out like a like a youth of today like percelli doing the fist down thing you know what

Starting point is 01:02:43 me yeah totally american hardcore i really do sometimes i play sometimes i play base for judge these days here and here here and there when they when matt can't play i fill in for them and uh i always when i see priscilla i always say american harker he does that thing where he hits the cord like you know when his arms down like that and he's looking at the ground i'm always like american hark yeah the bringing it the bringing it down uh cover i always I go, that's the American hardcore move. I go, you're like pure American hardcore. And he just laughs.

Starting point is 01:03:12 I'm like, and like Sammy joins in. Sammy will be like, oh, this guy's pure American hardcore. I'm like, look at this guy. This guy's like the quintessential American hardcore guy. I do that move once a set, every harm's way show. It's a great move. It's just one of the moves. Was Chuck the same guy who engineered the Chung King version of bringing it down?

Starting point is 01:03:33 Yes. I don't know if he did the chunk. I don't think he did the, I don't think he would. worked at Chung King, but I don't know, I don't think he worked with it. Because he worked with a judge. That whole fiasco. They wouldn't have hated it if he worked a judge. Uh-huh. Gotcha. That makes sense. How close are you and Armand almost 40 years, 40 years later? We're still very close. He's one of my closest friends, but, you know, Armand's the kind of guy. He's like, you know,

Starting point is 01:04:01 the kind of guy like, you know, don't touch me. Don't say that. You make me, he gets. So you say it and you touch him. And he gets like, oh, get away from you, gross. He's like very, he gets very uncomfortable and stuff like that. He's very, like, cold. But, like, in reality, like, he sends my mother, him and his wife, his wife, Brina, sweetheart. They send my mother a Christmas present every year. And they send her a Christmas card, you know, separate from the present.

Starting point is 01:04:27 So I'm always like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, you're not a bad guy. And he's like, ah, stop, let me alone. You know what I mean? You're not a bad. And he's like, leave me alone. I'm like, I'm like, you're a bad man, but you're not a bad guy. You know what I mean? Sick of an old humor has a lot of layers.

Starting point is 01:04:44 So, you know, sure. Like, I'm the talkative guy and sick of it all, the one that's an open book. The other guys are more quiet and a little more bah humbug. So the dynamic is pretty fun. We have some real comedy that goes on sometimes. Yeah, I mean, you go back to his first time playing. He learned drums to play in a band with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:03 I mean, musically, Armand and I are like very witch. It's just, it's like somehow like before we were born. It was like, all right, I chose to be this guy. You chose to be that guy. We're going to see a lot of each other. It's like just happened that way. You know what I mean? I feel like we all have those people.

Starting point is 01:05:18 We all have the other one. Yeah. You know, all of us. That's beautiful. He could very easily be a guy, though, that I don't hear from him for five years. That could happen too because he's like, you know. But it hasn't. He's a little psychotic.

Starting point is 01:05:32 You know what I mean? It's a little crazy in there. But like, he's not a bad guy. But he's not a bad guy. He's not a bad guy. Now, how fondly have you looked back at straight ahead for the last 40 years? I think back to that. Sometimes I would occasionally put it on, like the end of war zone thing.

Starting point is 01:05:50 And it would give me goosebumps. I'd be like, wow, like, listen to what I was doing when I was like a little kid. I was like, no wonder everybody likes this so much. It's really good. I get excited, you know what I mean? Like, from an outside perspective, I'm pretty damn happy with it. It's so energetic. and there's so much, it's got like a bright, it hurts out.

Starting point is 01:06:12 It pops like crazy, you know? So there's never been any resentment on your end towards straight ahead. No, why would they be resentment? I agree. These are just questions we've always wondered, you know, these are just. I mean, I resent. People look back at their old bands and they're like, ah, that sucked. No, I loved it.

Starting point is 01:06:29 But it defines them. Tommy was like, when he was younger, he was like, he was like more of a hothead. So he would like, we'd be all. getting along and he'd like oh i don't want to do that and get mad and something would happen and it would mess us up for a little bit we'd be like oh i don't want to deal with this he's going crazy again you know what i mean when he was young because he was like a like a hyped up kid so he would go crazy and like oh what are you doing stop you know so that kind of messed it up but even when he would do that once he calmed down he could be like yeah i messed up he was like always honest like that you know

Starting point is 01:07:00 so is that so allegedly you broke up in the studio recording with don fury Correct. Yes. What were you recording? We were just rehearsing and playing new songs and Don for like five bucks. He had these two mics in the corner and he would like put a cassette in and for five bucks he would record the session. So we would like play the songs and record him. So it was like a like a rehearsal demo kind of thing. And I remember a G.B rehearsed.

Starting point is 01:07:28 They had the session before us. They were rehearsing. I remember they hung around and like I remember like Walter was like listening to the stuff. And he had like this look on his face. And I was like, what are you doing? He goes, I want to hear the new stuff. And he was like, I was like thinking of myself, he really likes this band. He's excited like I am about this.

Starting point is 01:07:47 So like I looked like everybody in the bands loves this band. I kind of just knew it was good. He was here. And you look at the live videos. Yeah. You can see it. Straight ahead live videos. It's a who's who of Mosher's.

Starting point is 01:07:59 And like he was like listening to like we played like knockdown for the first time like at that session probably. and with a song called More Important than I remember him being like, that's a new one. It's really good. There's fast, snappy changes. Like, we were talking a little bit, and I remember it was cool.

Starting point is 01:08:12 But then at the end of the session, Tommy got mad about something, and he argued with, like, me a little bit. And then Rob, Tommy was like, I'll just stop doing this right now. And Rob was like, okay, we'll stop. And I'll plug this guitar and left. And that was kind of the end of it.

Starting point is 01:08:26 Weird as it was, it just kind of was like a typical argument we'd have. And not that we argued a lot, but it was one of those, like, little things where everyone gets heated, We're all excited, you know? Yeah, yeah. And that was just the end of it, you know? What year was that?

Starting point is 01:08:38 87. 87, yeah. That was 87. Probably like the spring or summer of 87, spring, late spring, maybe, I guess. It all happened so fast. So it seemed like a long time. So should we get to the reunion or should we move on to what he's doing in between?

Starting point is 01:08:56 You know what I mean? No, I mean, the reunion's one year later. Like a year and some change later. Yeah, what are you doing in that year? So what happened was that stuff? stopped happening and, you know, like a little bit of time went by where it wasn't in the band, like a few months. And Todd, I was good friends with Todd youth, rest of soul. You know, we used to hang out all the time.

Starting point is 01:09:14 And we'd hang out in the park. And I remember a little side story. We'd hang out in the park all the time, and I'd sleep at Ray B's house, you know, because I'd stay in the city all the weekend and sleep on his couch or whatever. And we'd always see the guy handing out the pot of soup, the guy with the long, straight, blonde hair sitting on the other bench, all the hardcore kids were on one side. And like the homeless kind of guys, not really homeless, but like the LES like guys.

Starting point is 01:09:40 And there was this guy, Daniel Rackowitz, and he just, he was, turned out he was a serial killer, right? You can look him up. He was a serial killer.

Starting point is 01:09:47 And he would always have like a big pot with a ladle and like some like paper bowls or whatever. Yeah. And he would hand out like soup or stew, whatever. And he'd always like, look at us. He didn't really say much because he'd look crazy.

Starting point is 01:10:01 But he'd be like, you know, he'd like, his head and offer us soup. We'd always say no. He was handing out soup to the homeless. And it was homeless people that he killed. He would make soup out of them. And if you look him up, he would hang, you know, he got arrested in like whatever,

Starting point is 01:10:14 87, 88. He would hang out in the park and like 86 and like feed homeless people soup to people. Holy shit. So like me and Todd would always see him. You know what I mean? Like giving everybody knows. Everyone from back down knows about this guy. Yeah. Daniel Rackovitz was his name. And nobody, nobody. Nobody ever had a bowl. Nobody on the hardcore kids said had a bowl. I didn't. Nobody I know had a bowl. Like I looked like this guy. This guy was like he looked like a nut. Like if you look at Pitchie him, he looked like blonde, blondie Jesus. You know what I mean? I was like, I'm not. This guy's a nut. So any any rational person would be like, well, clearly I'm not eating this man's suit. Yeah, yeah. But he would hang out with all the old time like Lower East Side like homeless guys and street guys and just just you know like back then it was like a whole kind of cultural thing, I guess.

Starting point is 01:11:02 Yeah, Craig, can I ask you, what was the Lower East Side like at this time? We hear tales, we hear legends. My mom went to NYU 80 to 82. She was petrified. You know what I mean? Like she would go to CB's, but it was scary. It was like the scary thing to do. What was it like at that time?

Starting point is 01:11:21 My mom went to NYU in about 80 to 79 to like 82. Look at that. How about that? Wendy B. My mother was the president of the student council and the student senator. at the same time. Oh, they knew each other. They probably knew each other.

Starting point is 01:11:35 Yeah, she was a little art, new age, new age. Bad egg. Was she young at the time? She was very young at the time, yeah. Okay, my mother was 40. So my mother was, like, going to school for her own enjoyment. So she got straight. Wow.

Starting point is 01:11:51 4.0 great average. Yeah, sure, yeah. So my mother was like the older lady going to school for, just because, like, you know, midlife enjoyment. Yeah, sure, totally. Sure. But your mother might be like, oh, I remember that lady. Well, it's funny.

Starting point is 01:12:05 With a German accent. She, like, ran the whole thing, you know? Oh, interesting. So it's funny you should say that because she would, when she would tell me about this time in her life, she'd say, I remember agnostic something in the band with the black guys. Wow. Wow. But she said, she said, she would go to like Blondie. She would see, you know, kind of, she wasn't like a punk or anything.

Starting point is 01:12:28 She was an art kid and like a new wave kind of kid. and she said, I remember the hardcore guys. They were scary because they lived on the street and you just, you avoided them. Yeah, she'd see Blondie to Ramones, talking heads probably. Talking heads, yeah, yeah, dead boys maybe, you know, like that kind of thing. That's hard, yeah. But what, uh, the bands that people romanticize playing CBGBs, but not the ones that kept the door. The place open, yeah, right.

Starting point is 01:12:54 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, she would tell me stories. I want to hear from you. Like, what was it like being a young person at this time? Well, it was scary, you know. I was like a little kid and I would hang out. Like Ray had his finger on the pulse. So he worked at the pyramid club just across the street from the park.

Starting point is 01:13:10 So I kind of had like people there. You know what I mean? Like I kind of had like an side track. But it was dangerous. You had to be careful. It was, you know, I always had a group of friends I was hanging out with. But you had to be careful. It was definitely dangerous.

Starting point is 01:13:23 You know, if you didn't know how to carry yourself. And I'm not talking about being tough because I was like a 15, 16 year. kid there was nothing tough about me back then uh but you know you just got to like no to not stick your nose where it doesn't belong and let things develop how they happen you know i mean sure so uh it was it was it was it was a it had a vibe to it there was like stuff happening it was like a petri dish music art there was so much happening all over the place we'd like walk down the block you'd go to this club you go to that club you go to this place to eat you would go here there'd be something popping off there was things happening everywhere all the time like the summer of 80 the whole summer of 86 i just basically

Starting point is 01:14:05 lived in the city and every night i had something to do there was always something happening new york city in the 80s was incredible i mean what a beautiful place i mean it was like everything was blossoming it was so great and you know people say to me that don't know about this music people i know in like regular walks of life they're like oh you're this like musician they say like oh my brother-in-law they're Like my brother-in-law to rock star and I'm like, it makes me feel weird. But I'm like, how did you do that? Like, how was it you that got popular in these fans? I go, it's time and place.

Starting point is 01:14:37 I was in the right place at the right time. And I was drawn to something that was about to explode. And I was one of the few guys that was a good, that I could express myself with their instrument pretty well. You know what I mean? And so like that, that, you know, it was just time and place, man. Everything was popping off. Like it had a smell. The old New York.

Starting point is 01:14:57 Old New York. smell it had a feel the tallest buildings in the world so says roger marat i get guys not that's okay don't get me so get it to a if you want just give me yeah no that's coming that's coming real quick there's a little trauma i got to kind of keep my hands up a little bit but like back then there was so much happening it was such a beautiful time and uh it was time and place man i forget what else i was going to say no no it's beautiful you always hear horror stories you hear, oh, there were cars on fire and buildings burned out. That was happening.

Starting point is 01:15:31 If you were that kind of guy, you'd be in that. But as, you know, as somebody who was going into Chicago when I was 13, 14, going to shows and doing stuff and going to places that were, like, my dad would take me to, like, Colin, where we went to the fireside? And it was like, you're going where? You know? And it's like, no, I have such happy nostalgia. I'm not comparing 80s New York to Chicago in any way. but there's there's I like hearing the romance about it from your point of view from from because I can I can understand that you know it's I was good when I was young and so I was spent to Chicago first in like 86 I remember the food was good and the shows were good and everyone was cool but there was there was there was an undertone there as well and you could tell bad things could pop off I had a couple situations in Chicago over the years where I was like okay this could really get crazy really fast you know so So you got to mind your peas and cues.

Starting point is 01:16:27 Like I was never a guy. People saw me. When I came to hardcore, I was this little kid with wide eyes. All I wanted to do was play music. I wanted to play music. And I was like a freak. I was a kid from a broken home in Queens. I didn't want to play music.

Starting point is 01:16:44 Like, I wasn't cool. I wasn't a cool kid. I was like a misfit. And when I came to hardcore, people just looked like, hey, kid, come here. Hey, oh, you're enthusiastic. You play really well. People embraced me and they really looked like, oh, this kid's special.

Starting point is 01:16:59 They saw me for what I was trying to do. They saw my heart. So it's the only place I ever went in life where I was really recognized from my talents. I don't mean talent as a player. I mean, like, they saw and appreciated what I was coming out of me, what I was trying to give. And that's what's beautiful about hardcore. That's what makes it so unique. It's simple music by misfits.

Starting point is 01:17:23 And there's a lot of beautiful. beauty that comes through it. There's pain. There's everything. You know what I mean? That's what makes it such a beautiful movement the way I see it and the way I came into it, you know? It's the only genre where if you stick around long enough and if you work hard enough, you will go from the pit to the stage or somewhere, some higher echelon and music in your life. If you're just, if you're cool and you work hard and you're pleasant to be around, you're going to be fine. Being cool is the thing. Like, all the, everyone talks on the was so dangerous.

Starting point is 01:17:55 You were a little kid hanging out in the park at 3 a.m. I was just... You got to be a cool kid. I was cool. I wasn't making trouble. I wasn't making trouble. I was...

Starting point is 01:18:04 People saw who I was. I was a kid that wanted to play music and I was there for good reasons. So I never had problems with people. You know, I mean, I had a fight or two in hardcore a couple fights over the years, but that was never like something

Starting point is 01:18:17 that really I was involved in Havilenex. I thought it was dumb. I was like, yeah, you're going to ruin the show. What are you doing? I want to play the show. Sure. Genuine. I never disrespected anybody.

Starting point is 01:18:25 I was always nice to everybody. I think of their own respect. Even people that wound up being enemies to me, I was always like I was not enemies, but I was always nice to everybody. I never disrespected anybody. And that's the truth. Beautiful.

Starting point is 01:18:40 Can't be friends. Can't be friends with everybody though. Hey. No. Friend to all, friend to none. You know what I mean? Before we get into AF,

Starting point is 01:18:48 straight ahead decides to do a reunion show in 1988 at CBGB. is one of my most watched YouTube videos of all time having to do with music. I saw the episode. It's like Metallica, 89. That's right. It's like Metallica 89. Yeah. And then the straight ahead video in like Bad Brains in 82.

Starting point is 01:19:10 What how did the ball get rolling with that? Like how did you guys smoothed over the spat? You just decided fuck it. We'll do one more. Like what was it? We were always friends. It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like after that happened. Like we didn't.

Starting point is 01:19:22 like Tommy called me in the next week like, yo, what are you doing? You know, we're still friends. And like, you know, it just didn't turn into like, hey, we're rehearsing this week. I think Rob was like kind of arm out like, ah, this is too volatile, you know? What happened was it was like the benefit?

Starting point is 01:19:36 What was that? The Roger benefit or the Pete benefit? The Pete's sick. That's right. Yeah, so all these bands were playing and we were there and, you know, it was sort of like, yeah, we'll get up and bust out a couple of songs. So, like, we just got up and we're like, okay, let's go. Like, grab whatever entrance were.

Starting point is 01:19:50 Not on the bill. I don't think we were on the bill. It might have been talked about is, hey, you want to jump up and play a few songs? Like, yeah, okay, we'll just pop up and play three songs or whatever. Yeah. And I just, you know, I couldn't even move. I was like, the place is packed and explodes. Everybody everywhere tear this place down?

Starting point is 01:20:10 And they did. Tommy accidentally really said the right thing. Yeah, that's kind of iconic. I got to say. I was going to ask about that. Like, was that something he would, how many shows did straight ahead play? I don't know exactly, but I'm going to guess we played a few, the 10, 20. Okay.

Starting point is 01:20:30 Is that something he would intro sets with or intro that song with? Before or after? Unbelievable. Just came out of nowhere, you know? Change the world by accident. Yeah, I mean, as far as memorable sets go, where does this sit in your mind and in your, in your rolodex? That was the era where when you play a show, you had no room to move.

Starting point is 01:20:51 but it was kind of frustrating because I want to jump around. But that was pretty classic. I almost felt like, wow, people are pushing me out of the way to play my own song. You know what I mean? It was a little weird in the way, but people were so enthusiastic. I was like, this is pretty cool. Like it didn't feel as good as you might think it felt because it was so crowded that you were just trying to like not get knocked over and finish the song. But yeah, that was a great time.

Starting point is 01:21:15 Like, you know, it's like the one guy, the guy that was on stage, what was his name again? He was like a cop in Arizona years later. And I saw him when we played out there. It was like sick, a little on Madball playing. I saw him. I'm like, yo,

Starting point is 01:21:28 what's up? I haven't seen it. And he was like the last time I saw him was probably out of that show. Whoa. We were chopping up about it. It was pretty. I was like, you're in the video.

Starting point is 01:21:37 You're like the guy standing right there. Like holding people. Classic, classic stuff. So what you see this reaction? And you guys are like, all right, let's never do that again.

Starting point is 01:21:47 I just think that we were like, oh, that was great. That was fun. Yeah. That was, you know, like, it's just made you feel like, yeah, that band was really good. Okay. The reason we never did it again is because I was, like, was I in AF then?

Starting point is 01:22:01 No, no. No, because this is 88 and that was 92. Right. I joined, I joined AF in 87. So I was probably in AF. 87. Well, we joined AF in the fall of 87. So were you on Liberty and Just?

Starting point is 01:22:17 I joined right when they came back from the studio recording Liberty and Justice. Okay. So they came back from the studio recording Liberty and Justice and I said, hey, let me redo the bass tracks. And Roger was like too cheap to pay for it. He's like, I don't want to. I guess they didn't want to pay for it. It would cost a few hundred dollars, you know. Wow. So when recently Mike Dejan described playing for AF for the first time as getting his wings. That's a nice way to put. Is that how you looked at it at the time? All right. So I went into AF with sneakers and I came out with boots.

Starting point is 01:22:49 There we go. I made a man out. me. That's why I learned like, quote of the episode right there. That's why I learned like a lot of stuff. I learned like, you know, you can take some, you can be cool, but don't take too much shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. And if you got to punch the baby in your face, make it count. You know what I mean? Not to sound negative, but like those are the kind of lessons you learned in that band. You know what I mean? Don't take too much shit. A.F. has obviously existed at this point for a while. They're a legacy band already. They are, are they the New York band to you? Or is it Murphy's Law at this point already? No, to me, when it comes to New York hardcore, the flagship,

Starting point is 01:23:29 like, you know, when you see the video of the flag being planted on the moon, allegedly, I don't know. Right. And there's lot of controversy. Whatever. We could get into it. Not my bag. Not my bag. That is my bad. I'm just saying it for anybody. I know one of your bags that we're going to talk about later. I'm excited. I'm just saying, like, you know, however you want to do That's your business. Yeah. But, uh,

Starting point is 01:23:50 victim and pain is like, the flag of New York Holy Corps on the world. To me, victim and pain is the ultimate representation of New York Hall Corps. So when, when you get the opportunity to play for them,

Starting point is 01:24:03 getting your wings or whatever, getting called up to the, like does it feel like, oh shit, this is big weeks or anything? I mean, back when I was, this is what happened.

Starting point is 01:24:10 So I was trying to tell this earlier when we were talking about, uh, Todd and hanging out in the park, but, you know, we're moving fast and I'm feeling good. So it's happening.

Starting point is 01:24:19 So Todd, one day Todd, like, calls me. He goes, hey, you play baseball for Murphy's Law now. You know, like, you know, you can play because they need a bass player. You know what I mean? And Russell, I guess, wasn't in the band anymore. I don't remember exactly what happened. But he's like, you play in Murphy's Law now. So come down to the studio.

Starting point is 01:24:38 We're going to try out next week. I go, okay, great. You play in Murphy's Law now. Yeah, he's like, you play in Murphy's Law. You play with me. And Jimmy, I was like, yeah, okay, great. So I was super excited. Now back from when I was little,

Starting point is 01:24:50 from the first time I, like, stigma was at the first show I ever played at CB's. And I played a show at CB's, and I think it was 84. And Stigma was there, and he was singing along and piling up to the songs, the mayhem songs, even though we didn't have a frontman,

Starting point is 01:25:04 people, like, grabbed my mic and sang, right? So I was like, afterwards, I was like, how do you know all the words? It was like, I bought your demo outside, like a couple weeks ago. Tommy was selling a demo. I think he gave him one.

Starting point is 01:25:16 So stigma, the first time I played C-B's, sang along. To Mayhem. To Mayhem. To Mayhem. Dude, Stigma OG death metal hit. No, this was in Mayhem. Mayhem was like, this was Mayhem when I was in the band. So it was like crossover.

Starting point is 01:25:31 It was like metal and hardcore mixed. It was like heavy hardcore. It sounded like, you know, like the offenders or something. Right. The lack of a better, whatever. Sure. So Stigma sang along. And then he said to me, he goes, kid, you play that bass.

Starting point is 01:25:46 great. He goes, you jump high. I could see how much you love this. He's like, one day you're going to be in my band, kid, kid. He would always, whenever he'd see me, he'd say, kid, kid, what are you doing? He goes, kid, you're going to be in my band one day. I'm telling you. And I'd always be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he'd like, stop his foot and yell Skinner. And I'd like, and he'd like, and he'd be like, what? And he'd be like, I like, I like you're good, you know, you're my friend. So I was always friends with stigma. He always told me it was going to be in his band. So I tried out from Murphy's Law, and Chuck tried out the same night. He tried out both me and chuck vow the late and very great chuck vow and let me say i've said this before i

Starting point is 01:26:21 say with the utmost pride that the better man won chuck got that gig and that was the only time i ever tried out for a band and didn't get the gig in my life because the better man won chuck vow well rest in peace my rest in peace chuck so uh i was coming home from the from the rehearsal and they hadn't said anything yet they're hey we're going to do another rehearsal we're going to Try you both out. You both sounded great, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, like, you know, I didn't smoke a joint at the end of the rehearsal. Chuck did. I think that might have something to do with it. But, uh, so I'm coming home and back then I kept my base on a cardboard box with open top cardboard box. I didn't have a case or anything. I just had a car. I'd carry it on the subway on a cardboard box.

Starting point is 01:27:05 So I'm coming home and I'm walking up the stairs. I lived in like an apartment, you know, like a garden apartment in Queens, like second sort. I'm coming up the apartment and my mother opens his door and she's like, she's like, Craig, Vinnie Stigma's on the phone for you. And I'm like, I'm like, Vinny's on the phone. I go, hold on. I'm coming up. I grabbed the phone. I go, Vinny, what's up?

Starting point is 01:27:24 He goes, ah, kid, you know? He goes, I know you were just with Jimmy. Vinny goes, I just talked to Jimmy and you're with me now, kid. He goes, the other, they go, Chuck, the other kid is with Jimmy. And you're with me now, kid. He goes, I told you he'd be an Ignatiscuit Front one day. And I was like, oh shit, I'm an agnostic front now. And that was it.

Starting point is 01:27:44 And I rehearsed. He just said, you're with me. Yeah, you're with me. That's like the ultimate good news, bad news. Well, it was all good news because Vinny's, you know, great. And let me just say before I even have some fun with this. I love Rogers. My friend.

Starting point is 01:27:59 Rogers is my friend. They'll do anything for him. They'll pretty much do anything for me. I love the guy. Don't tell him I said that, Roger. Don't tell him I said that. But so I went and rehearsed with him and it sounded great. And, you know, Roger gave me a hard time.

Starting point is 01:28:12 He was like, this kid, he's too clean. Look at how clean this kid is. He's like, this kid's a pussy. Look at how clean he is. And I'm like, I'm like, yo, I'm like, he was always cool with me. I'm like, what are you being an asshole for? He's like, no, no, you play good. He's like, it's good.

Starting point is 01:28:24 It'll work out. Vinny wanted you in the band, not me. I'm like, what? And he's like, he's like talking shit to me the whole way. And, you know, Vinny's like, ah, shut the fuck up. This kid's great. You don't have him kick your ass. So the dynamic turned into like a comedy three-way kind of thing.

Starting point is 01:28:39 Right off the gate, it was fun and fun. and funny. They were, the ball busting had to be right away, right away. And Roger would always be like, I didn't want you in the band. You were like a clean cup pussy. I was like, that's great. But, you know, and so, so, you know, I played with them and we went on tour and Stigman made me smoke that joint with him. Tell me about these first, this, the touring on Liberty and Justice and with AF these first few years. Is this the most touring you did with a band? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before that, I went to the West Coast with the youth of today, and I played, I played an East Coast and Southern Tour with you today.

Starting point is 01:29:13 I did the West Coast with them straight ahead, the tri-state area gigs. So I had played in California down south and, you know, Florida and the East Coast. And so I toured with them and we'd go in a van. And it was just shenanigans. Just complete fun. Willie was playing drums.

Starting point is 01:29:34 Steve Martin was playing guitar before Maddie Henderson. And, you know, I would meet. up with Steve a lot and we'd go pick up Vinnie and it was a lot of fun I mean we had a lot of fun a lot of ball busting a lot of comedy and uh I don't remember what the first show was but I just going on tour in like a van with gear in the back and a pit bull and it just it was like a lot of touring we just toured non-stop but we went to Europe for the first time in 90 so that's when Europe kind of started breaking open and we just would we play like do whole US tours where we play be on the road for two months.

Starting point is 01:30:13 Yeah. You know, in a van, old school. Is it being booked like on the go or is, how is this working? It's being booked before, but some of it's taking shape as you go. You know, most of it is pre set up, but there's a lot of like, you know, this fell out, this came in, you know, I remember like going down to Florida and, you know, Rogers Cuban, so we'd stay with his family and his mother would cook and we'd have like Cuban food. It was just incredible.

Starting point is 01:30:38 And, you know, we'd hang out with the Cuban people down there that his family, knew so we'd always be eating well and that was really nice you know is this the era of uh like calling cards yeah yeah and all that like that kind of you know about the calling cards scams colin yeah so the way it worked with that was you know you do that is no dave stein rest of soul yeah r ip dave steve stein was a great man good friend and so he was the guy who uh basically put albany on the map for hardcore he would book shows and then steve reddy was like his his So Steve Reddy was his understudy and those guys would book Albany shows. And I knew those guys from straight ahead and mostly youth for today playing Albany.

Starting point is 01:31:21 So he would get the calling cards. He would get the lists and he'd give bands across the country to list so they could book their tour on pay phones. And yeah, it was like old school. And you'd get the list. And like if I got the list like since he was in Albany, I'd get the list like maybe a little late. like Roger would get it and then give it to me or like Ray would get it and give it to me. So I would get the list like two days later and three days later as long as it took to mail it down. And whoever he gave it to first would like already.

Starting point is 01:31:51 So you'd start the list backwards or you'd start the list in the middle and work your way down and then back. So you had to like be created. You got to beat the other guys to book. But he would hook up West Coast. He'd hook up bands all across the country. He was just doing it for the scene. Now is this this is like. Kevin seconds out here.

Starting point is 01:32:10 Yes. Yeah, et cetera. Everybody. The guy in each city. The guy in each city, he was like, you know,

Starting point is 01:32:17 would use the Dave Stein cloning cards. Wow. Dave Stein, RIP, changes a guy. Steve Reddy was his own the study. So Steve Reddy is basically

Starting point is 01:32:26 the same kind of guy. Steve Reddy is one of the greatest human beings in the world. So one voice is right around the corner. Which means they recruit Matt Headers. Yeah. What happened was we played a, 87, 88. And then Roger had some legal trouble.

Starting point is 01:32:42 So we stopped playing for 18 months. He was incarcerated for 18 months. So during that time, I played in rest in pieces with Armand. So I was doing that. And I played a few sick of at all shows where Richie couldn't play. So I'd fill in on bass. Yeah, I played like a week. I think I was one weekend.

Starting point is 01:33:01 I played like two or three shows on a weekend and maybe one of a show. It was a hand, just a couple of shows. But we were all old friends. So I jumped in on that. And that kind of set the tone for that later on, I think. Yeah. So rest in pieces you do under my skin at this time. Yeah, we did under my skin at that time.

Starting point is 01:33:18 And it came out okay. I just feel like it did, you know, it was like one of those recordings that really just didn't, there wasn't magic in the studio. You know what I mean? It just was captured on a bad day. It just didn't really come. I mean, not that it's a bad record, but it's not like, I feel like the first record, you know, it's like. I mean, it's not on streaming and the first one is. basically.

Starting point is 01:33:40 Yeah, right. And this, dude, what's interesting is it's like so opposite to straight ahead. If you even look at just like the song lengths, it's like four minutes, four minutes, four minutes, five minutes. But that's the beauty of hardcore. Armand had his way of writing songs. I had my way of writing songs. It was like a different.

Starting point is 01:33:56 He was a little more like writing more traditional songs. You know what I mean? Structurally. Structurally. Yeah, structurally a little more intricate, like more traditional verse chorus, verse bridge, leave, you know. Sure. Where straight ahead was just like, you know, the structure was, yeah, straight,

Starting point is 01:34:14 the structure was whatever I felt would sound good. I wasn't worried about like verse chorus. I've written songs that are verse chorus throughout my life, a lot of them. But at that point, I just wanted to write just, just fucking blistering hardcore. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's awesome. Pardon this interruption. We hate to interrupt one of the greatest episodes in the history of the show.

Starting point is 01:34:32 But we have some very important news. This month is independent ad month. New Year, new ads. That's right. They're all independently owned by friends, friends of friends, and hardcore kids. And honestly, we wish every month on the show was independent ad month. So if you want to sponsor the show, hit us up. Just let us know.

Starting point is 01:34:52 Yeah. It's down there. It's out there. It's right there. First up, timeless coffee. Brand new. We're very excited about this. This is first time, long time here.

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Starting point is 01:36:00 Not only for cookies, but they do these beautiful custom cakes. Really? Oh my God. Look at some of them here. It's insane. I want one right now. I may take a drive. I'll let you know if I do. They also offer coffee subscriptions. You can get one for yourself or you can give one for somebody else. You know what I like is the fact that if you already have the subscription, you can still use code hard lore and you still, you get even further savings. It's unbelievable. They offer multiple blends, multiple grind sizes, multiple bag sizes, multiple frequency options, Timeless Coffee. DIY hardcore punk ethics run through the bones and the DNA of this beautiful company. Even some of the vocalists of some of your favorite bands have also worked there. Joseph from Tsunami roasted there for six years. I didn't even know that.

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Starting point is 01:36:58 Timeless Coffee. Hardlaw, 15% off. This episode is also brought to you by Mills. Vintage. The greatest collection of vintage hardcore punk metal memorabilia on the internet in existence. Also just an incredible archive for old hardcore designs. Very good. Often for reference.

Starting point is 01:37:18 Very good point. Mills Vintage is one of the most curated collections of vintage shirts I've actually ever seen. It's incredible. It's for ball knowers by ball knowers. Vic, I've known for half of my life now. He is a hardcore lifer. He's put in the work. He knows everything about every shirt.

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Starting point is 01:37:53 Try it on. That's right. For anybody who saw our episodes with Speed or Chappelle Lacey, we visited the varsity location in California, and we visited Mills Vintage. We went through everything in there. I've given this man my life savings. I don't have a 401k.

Starting point is 01:38:09 I have 401k. I have 401,000 shirts from Mills Vintage and our beloved Mad Vintage. So visit MillsVintageUSA.com and use code hardlore to get 15% off sitewide on some of the greatest hardcore punk metal shirts ever made. Tell me about Matt Henderson getting into the fold because this man's brain. Yeah, so Roger went away and Roger went away for 18 months and Roger actually his case was overturned. It was like considered a wrongful conviction. It was overturned and he was let out, you know, because it was like a, it was a very famous case actually. Roger's case is like a legally cited case of a imprisonment that was overturned because it wasn't.

Starting point is 01:38:56 Wow. Legally, it wasn't a just incarcerated. Was it the state going after him or was it a? It was the state. It was a state going after him. It was a state. But it turns out it was like the procedures were done illegally and that he should have went to jail.

Starting point is 01:39:11 Wow. So this is like a law and order SVU where they're looking back and they're like, you know, actually, if you look back at New York versus Roger Moray. Roger Merck. You'll find that the sets of a precedent for this. There's eight names. There's eight names you don't know. I've got eight last names that you don't know.

Starting point is 01:39:26 Okay. That's okay. Straight from Cuba, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. So, so that's rare. It's rare. Yeah, right.

Starting point is 01:39:36 So, um, so Roger comes back and Steve Martin wasn't doing it because Steve Martin had started his own, uh, PR company. And, um, so, we tried out a million guys and we didn't take anybody. We were going to take this one guy, Andre, who was a painter, a nice guy, South Pole guitar player, played lefty, cool guy, but, you know, he was, he was, he had his anything business and he wasn't the perfect guy for the thing but he was a cool guy and he played well so what happened was mad the whole time roger kept saying no no this kid from from minnesota blind approach this kid mattie he's the kid but like six months went by and i was like yo

Starting point is 01:40:16 this guy doesn't exist like what do you like you keep talking like this doesn't matter and he was like don't worry the kid's going to come in i was like this kid doesn't even exist like we were arguing with me and willie would be like what's this guy talking about Where's the guy? You know, produce him already. Yeah. So at one point, he's like, oh, you know, like it was almost like he was fumbling his words.

Starting point is 01:40:37 I got Thursday, you got to meet this guy over here at the Staten Island ferry. I was like, what? It's like, what are you trying to? Like, somebody can like stick a knife in my back? Like, what's, what are you setting me up for? It didn't seem right. You know what I was like, well? But it turns out, Matt, he came in.

Starting point is 01:40:50 And I think he came to Stigmas apartment. We all met him. We got some pizza. We hung out. We talked to him for a little bit. So we had to take the rail, the subway to the Staten Island Ferris rehearsing in Staten Island. It's from Rogervis in Staten Island. So we take the Staten Allen ferry there and we're talking the whole time. And I'm talking to him a lot. He's asking me a lot

Starting point is 01:41:08 of questions and stuff. So we rehearse and it was kind of up to me. Vinnie would always say, kid, when we try these guys out, you let me know if he's right, you know. Minnie would always kind of lean on me for the music part of it, you know, and obviously Willie. And so we played the Eliminator, I think it was. We played the Eliminator and, you know, we finished the song and Vinny looks at me and I just shook my head and I looked at Willie and Willie just smiled and I was like, all right. So you want to be in the band? He was like, yeah, Vinny's like, hey, the kid says you're the guy. And he was like, yeah, okay.

Starting point is 01:41:43 And here's a little joke, but Maddie always talks about. He goes, you know, that day I didn't know because, you know, my life was going to go down a different path. He goes, but I said to my mother when I called her, I go, well, the bass player seems like a reason. reasonable guy. So I think I'm going to do it. I'm like, I'm always like, Maddie, I'm sorry. I didn't really like, you should have ran. I should have warned you. You know, we laughed, you know. Yeah, but dude, that day, I mean, defined almost like what hardcore sounds like now. Yeah. He can really play. Like, when we played with him, I was like, oh, he's like, I was like he's, he, there are a

Starting point is 01:42:21 handful of guys you play with. You guys probably know this. You musicians. You play with certain guys where you're like oh this guy fits with me perfect armand is like that armand and both rob doss are like that they just fit perfectly willie's another guy when i play with willie it's just i play with him in that band to take now it's just he's so easy to play with it's just we fit together it just sounds right mattie hendonis is another one of those guys when you play with them it's just there you don't have to worry his writing style man yeah it's perfect you don't have to worry about writing one voice it was basically me and Maddie locked up in Staten Island for months with Roger like, you know, like shutting the door. I'm like, no lunch for you guys unless you finish two songs.

Starting point is 01:43:04 I'd be like, yo, shut up. Get out of here. You know what I mean? But he'd be like, yo, you know, sometimes Roger can pull some shit and you can't really stop him. You know what I mean? So he'd be like, I mean, it worked. It worked. It worked.

Starting point is 01:43:16 Slate driving me and Maddie. And a bunch of crazy stuff happened. Like stuff, it took some weird turns here and there. But in the end, we finished the album. and me and Maddie basically wrote the whole album. Roger wrote one or two songs that were really good. And Todd Youth, rest of soul, wrote a song or two. And it came out really good.

Starting point is 01:43:37 I mean, I'm not happy with my bass sound on it, but it was a fun time, you know. You didn't have the Chuck doing the SVT in the board and big red there. The bass sound I got, it was Dom Fury doing it. Don Fury is great as he is in his own element. And at Normandy, it was a little clash between him and like Tom Sores or, you know, or that didn't really work too well. Man, Don did, Don did one voice. He was involved in it. Yeah, he like produced it.

Starting point is 01:44:03 But Tom Sores was engineering and, you know, the two of them didn't really see eye to eye on technique. Because, you know, Don Fury had his way from his basement. Yeah. Tom Sawers is like a, you know, a Grammy award winning radio producer. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Two different, like, levels. approaches, you know what I mean? But both had

Starting point is 01:44:23 their own way, but the two approaches didn't mix too well, you know? That's why my bass. I mean, it sounds great. I don't like my bass sound. But I like the album, the album's fun. The songs are pretty good. You know what I mean? I think it's a people in Europe love that record. Oh yeah. And then Madball stole him and then the rest is history, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, Madball, it's a whole other thing, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:44:46 Yes, I was in the original Mad Bowl. Like, they would play in Europe and I would like play Roger would play bass right so Roger played bass and they'd use my my base so they said to me they go Scully they called me Scully that's my nickname and I am they go Scully bring red to the recording you're going to play bass right I go I'm going to play on the first seven it's I go cool all right yeah I'll bring red so I show up at red and I show up and the stigma goes he goes kid kid you're out of the band we're throwing you out of the band I was never in the band they go I you're not playing on the record Roger's playing on the record record, we just wanted to use red.

Starting point is 01:45:21 And I'm like, so, you know, red, my red base is on the first Mabot 70s. Really? Wow. And that's the straight ahead base? Straight ahead base. So Ball Destruction is the straight ahead. Yes. And red is on all the straight ahead stuff. Red is also on like a bunch of the sick of it all albums.

Starting point is 01:45:38 And like, you know, I've played it through. Not every album, but most of them. You know what I mean? I love tales of these instruments that have names that are like. Yeah, Red. Reds are like Game of Thrones or something. Listen, I just hung on to Red. blowing in the wind throughout my entire career. Red's the one that did it all.

Starting point is 01:45:53 I'm just like, me on here. I'm just hanging out. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so, um, and then I was like, I was like, shit, I was in the, I was in the band for a minute, but they kicked me out. And I'm laughing Mark Ryan was there from Super Touch. So, you know, stigma's like, don't worry, kid.

Starting point is 01:46:10 You and Mark are going to sing backups. So me and Mark Ryan sang backups and they're using the red base for that. All right. All right. There you go. You're still on there. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:46:18 Uh, somebody I want to. give their flowers to that that I'm hoping you can tell us about is bj papas oh she's great i love bj my one of my that's like the the goat hardcore photographer of all time bj is just a she's a girl she's living in a storyish old school hardcore girl friend of ours sweetest sweetest girl in the world sweetest pie i love her i still talk to it to this day she just loved photography and she was at every show and she would take photos all the time and she was like like part of the crew you know what I mean she was everybody's friends with her she mixed all those different groups of people together back then it was all one group but you know she was a f she was

Starting point is 01:46:59 you know straight ahead she was sick of it all she was killing time she was everything you know she took 90% 99% probably of like iconic hardcore promo photos from new york yeah brook smith also did a lot of photography you know brook smith yes she was the girl that was in and she was actress she was in silence of the lamb but she was a girl in the pit she was one of the war zone women right she's in gray's anatomy as well yeah she was the one in the pit when she's going when the guy's goes it puts the lotion in the basket she's like i'll kill your dog mister yeah that's dr katherine a rizona robins yeah she's like old school horrible girl she's great yeah i think i think i think uh sounds a lamb she's katherine martin is the yes senator's daughter

Starting point is 01:47:45 Senator's daughter. Wow. She gets captured, yeah, and put in the pit, you know. Wow. Yeah, it's like a strange, strange. But, you know, it was all back then. It was it was all musicians, actors, artists, like we were talking about earlier. That's the scene we were all part of.

Starting point is 01:48:00 It was all mixed, mixed up scene, you know. Everybody was together. It was, you know, it was melting pot, you know. Every race of person, every ethnicity, every style that nobody discriminated against anybody. Everybody was welcome, and that was a beauty of it. We were all misfits. We were all part of this scene, and everybody had something to contribute. It was a beautiful thing. Art, music, it was all mashed together, you know? Quick sidebar, uh, or, yeah, sidebar, before we jump in sick of it all. Uh, were you running into Peter Steele at any point at this time? I'm

Starting point is 01:48:35 imagined so. I remember him coming around. I saw Carnivore play, uh, when I was young at like Lamores or something like that. I went to one of those shows. probably in 80. I don't know, maybe, I don't know what year that was. It was mid-80s at some point. And he was coming to CB's when he was doing that cause for alarm album with those guys. I never really spoke to him outside of like, hey, maybe in a group of people, pass a word or two. But, you know, he was, he was very tall. He was a really big guys. But everyone says he was a really nice guy, but I never, like, sat down with him outside of passing a few words and a group of people talking. He's a guy. We would love to talk to that we'll obviously.

Starting point is 01:49:15 never get the chance to. So anytime we get the opportunity to ask, we ask, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't really know him, but I hear great things about him. I've grown up. You know, and he was in 85, he was coming to CB's for the whole summer pretty much. Yeah, he was pretty skinned up. Yeah. For a while. It was like kind of kind of like a hardcore weird hardcore band. Yeah. Yeah. Adjacent. Crossover. First gen crossover. Brooklyn is Brooklyn. Brooklyn's very adjacent to hardcore. Then not hardcore, but they are hardcore at the same time. It's like this, it's just like

Starting point is 01:49:49 brother, it's like this adjacent brother scene, you know? I've always wondered about that. Nobody can play a slow groove like Brooklyn guys. I got to give it to them, you know? Yeah. I mean, Biohazard was so crushed that stuff. Yeah. Biohazard was so popular, so fast that like death, death, every genre started

Starting point is 01:50:05 doing the like, yeah, I mean, yeah, I never met a guy from Brooklyn. I didn't like. I mean, like, biohazard, life agony. I love these people. All right. Let's get into it because throughout all of your time in AF, sick of it all is torn

Starting point is 01:50:21 in the world on blood, sweat, no tears, and just look around. And is this group of people you've known forever, basically, setting an example of what New York Harkor is capable of on a worldwide scale. I mean, yeah, they're putting in their work. That's for sure. They toured with AF when I was in AF. We toured together. played Canada. It was like sub-zero freezing cold.

Starting point is 01:50:49 Like we played a lot of shows together. Hey, I'm sick of it all. And you're filling in for them every now and then. Yeah, I played a few shows with them. You know, like when they recorded blood,

Starting point is 01:50:59 sweat and no tears, they were like, hey, we're doing our album. Like, Howie, Abrams, you know,

Starting point is 01:51:03 he did that in effect thing. And that was like, because Howie always was a industry guy with his finger on the pulse, but he's a hardcore guy first and foremost. You know, I've known Howie since probably 1984 since I was little.

Starting point is 01:51:15 He used to come to my house, and I'd play in my little songs. He'd be like, oh, that's great. Like, you know, when I was like just starting playing in bands, he'd support and sing along. He'd hang out with all of us and be at every show. Sikkimato was doing the In Effect thing, and they were going to do the album. So the Blood Sweat and No Tears album, they're like,

Starting point is 01:51:33 the budget's small. We have three days at Normandy. So I was like, hey, listen, I'll go with you guys. I said, and I'll help you guys. I said, like, I'll change strings. I'll tune everything. I'll do all like the, you know, and hang out and I'll sing backups. Yeah, like I was just doing like the same thing I did with the Med Bowl 7-inch. Like I'm, you know, I'm going to set of hands, you know, it's a voice, you know what I mean? Sure.

Starting point is 01:51:55 So I went to that and like it was a kind of thing where like they, they were like, damn, we don't have lyrics for these like two songs. So like I wrote lyrics. Like I wrote the lyrics to Blood and Sweat, the title track of the album. So I wrote the lyrics to that song and people probably don't know that. And like bullshit justice, the chorus of bullshit justice, I wrote that riff. That was a smegma riff. Hey, smegma coming back. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:22 It's all dividends, baby. Smagma always comes back. So that riff in bullshit justice, that like jabbley, boodoo-da-boot-d-d-d-justice. I wrote that riff. And I wrote lyrics to something else. I wrote a couple of lines in some other song or a verse maybe. And like, you know, they were like busy, like singing. playing and I was like, I'll write this.

Starting point is 01:52:44 I'm like, I'd be like the Tom Sors. I'll be like, do the other four songs first. So you're producing the record, basically. Producing, no, but like I'm like writing a little. I'm like doing, I'm helping them like fin it, get it out, get it ready. You know what I mean? Like they're like, oh shit, we don't have this, we don't have that. So like me and Armand, like Armine's the drummer, but he's also like, all right, so they

Starting point is 01:53:06 call me Q, my nickname and Sigurdow's Q, Montecue, Craig Montecue. they're like Q just like you got to do this because Lou's got to finish it you know tonight so you got okay okay and I'm out to be like yo when you write that how's this sound for the chorus I'd be like yeah that's cool and he's like just think about that and he's like I got these two lines like it was like very fast like so finish it we gotta finish this now like it was very quick so you're already in your mind you're already part of this camp I was always first recamp yeah right show I booked the first sycichiddle show with the right track in it was 86 I think I think May of 86, maybe. I was booking. It was the first show I ever booked myself. It was at the right track in. It was Youth of Today, Straight Ahead, Crippled Youth, and Sick of It All.

Starting point is 01:53:53 And I was playing in Sick of It Was I was playing in Straight Ahead and Youth Today. Crippled Youth couldn't play. They were later changing into Bold, as you know, because it was not PC. But back then, nothing was PC. This is the way it was. So Sick of It All Played in the first flyer, I said to Lou and Pete, I go, hey, I'm booking this show. I want you guys to play first. It'll be a first show.

Starting point is 01:54:13 And they were nervous. They were like, oh, I don't know. We're not ready. We're not ready. Yeah. And so I said, check it out, man. I said, you'll be ready. I said, you got to be ready.

Starting point is 01:54:20 And so on the first flyer, I put special guest. And then I, like, I tended to fly around at the CBs. And then like a week or two later at the matinee, I like put the little piece of paper over and went to the Xerox machine. And it said, sick of it all. And I was like, and they were like, what are you doing? I was like, well, now you have to play. And they were like, they were scared.

Starting point is 01:54:39 And they played. there was the first show ever on i wasn't think of it all was born and students in their shirts would be terrorized by teachers for the rest of their lives terrible but i got booked that first show so i was like it's amazing it was like destiny that i was involved with them i was always with friends i'm like you know i had been playing shows a lot already for years and they were like you know they were into the scene we all went to shows around i knew those guys before i even went to cbis they uh pete picked up the guitar a little later lu tried to play bass at first So as a band, they came like two years later.

Starting point is 01:55:12 You know what I mean? Yeah. So are you thinking like, why the hell am I not in this band? Well, you know, I was in AFF. So what am I going to do, quit like the biggest, the biggest hardcore band in the world? Right. You know what I mean? Like I want to quit the biggest hardcore band to play in the playing sick of it all.

Starting point is 01:55:27 Not that they're not my friends, but I was in the biggest hardcore band in the world. I was touring nine months out of the year. You were in ACDC. Playing, yeah, I was in the ACDCR playing in huge shows at AECDC in hardcore. So many people when the AF would play. when I was in AF. People in other bands, we go to the West Coast,

Starting point is 01:55:42 I'd get like four offers to join. They'd be like, play, bass in my big bands. They'd be like, play bass in my band. You know, play base in my band. The guy from Gang Green was like,

Starting point is 01:55:50 you got to play. I'm just in Boston. Play with us. I'm in this band, you know what I mean? But people would always ask me, that like your bass sound. Like,

Starting point is 01:55:58 I like your bass sound. But I like my bass sound too. You know what I mean? I get it. Is it true that you asked Mark from floor punch about his bass sound? And he said, I'm just doing straight ahead.

Starting point is 01:56:09 I think I did. Yeah. I can not have to feel good. That's nice. I can recognize a good bass sound. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you're doing. Are you, uh, I always tell people, I go, I go like when people like, oh, this

Starting point is 01:56:21 that the other thing. I go, I'm good at two things. You know, I'm good at bass playing and boxing. But boxing, you know, when I was young, I was good at boxing. So I'm like, I'm good at two things, base playing and boxing. I was like, and you know what that makes me? That makes me a bum because I'm a guy that when everyone else was getting a career, I was like having fun doing the things I enjoyed playing baseball.

Starting point is 01:56:39 Jason, the boxing. So like, but one of them is your career. And one was my career. You know, and the other one, I made some money and the other one, too. I was pretty good at that too.

Starting point is 01:56:49 You know what I mean? There we go. There you go. So, so tell, how does it happen? We're talking about sick of it all. Sick of it all.

Starting point is 01:56:54 So what happened was A.F. Um, was touring and A.F broke up. We did our last tour of Europe. It was 92, I think. And we toured Europe. And the plan was to end the band.

Starting point is 01:57:09 Roger was going to go to school in Florida for motorcycle repair. We had some stuff going on with the band that we needed to take a break for a little while. Roger needed to do that. Stigma had some stuff going on. So it was time for AF to end. We thought that was the end of AF. And it was the end of it. So what happened was AF plays their last show and breaks up.

Starting point is 01:57:34 And before that tour started, Armand called me and said, hey, Richie's quitting the band. You got to do Europe with us. In the time, I thought I was going to become a chef. He was going to go to culinary school in Holland. Yeah, I like to cook. Hell yeah. I'm interested in cooking.

Starting point is 01:57:53 It never happened, but I like to cook. So I said to Armand, I go, okay, he goes, you got to learn all these songs. I kind of knew him already. And I go, all right, listen, the AF tour ends on this date. He goes, our tour starts the day, you know, not the next day, but the next day after that. And that was just sick of it all biohazard tour. And I believe it was, it was 93, maybe, not 92.

Starting point is 01:58:15 So it was urban discipline. So they're the biggest band on our. Yeah. So we were doing, we were doing sick of it all biohazard. And we were like flip flopping every night or whatever it was, you know. And I wound up coming home. It was, A.F. Tour was seven weeks. So I did seven weeks in Europe in a van, came home, had one day off.

Starting point is 01:58:39 And I did all my laundry. You know, I did all my laundry. And I left the next day for an eight-week tour of the States in the middle of winter. So I did 13 weeks straight with like one day off. Maybe Sick of it all tour had one or two days off. The AF tour had like one day off. So I basically did a 13-week run, which was- Jesus.

Starting point is 01:58:57 That was the longest run I ever did. I think that's 15 weeks, which is even crazy. Just never again. You did 15 weeks? No, you did seven weeks, eight weeks into five weeks, seven weeks? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's okay, great math, huh? That's why I play base.

Starting point is 01:59:13 Hey. So, okay, so after that, during that tour, is it just like, Craig? You're in a half and seven and a half, but it was something like that, you know? Too damn many. That's for sure. So on that tour, is it decided? You know what happened? I said to these guys, like, I'm going to do this tour and I'm going to go to culinary school,

Starting point is 01:59:32 blah, blah, blah. And by the end of the tour, I was like, you know, we didn't even say it officially. but I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm in the band. What's next? You know what I mean? It just was like, what are we doing? You know, Armand and Armand, they, you know, they knew. Like, Richie, like, Richie, I talked to one of the phone from a pay phone on tour.

Starting point is 01:59:51 And he's like, it's you. Who's it going to be? Of course, it's you. He's always you. He's like, you know, I'm like, yeah, right. Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? It's going to happen.

Starting point is 01:59:59 It's the way it is. We're friends. You know? Beautiful. Let me ask you something, Craig. You have a best friend? I think you're my best friend. All right.

Starting point is 02:00:09 After me. It's hard to say. I got a few best friends. I'm on the spot now. I have a few best friends. I don't know. I want to hear about because, you know, we're talking. The way you talk about Tommy and Armand, it's like these guys are just, it's faded that you're going to be together.

Starting point is 02:00:26 I got my childhood best friends. Like I had my friend Sean Graham. His uncle was a famous boxer in the 50s. That's how I got into boxing from the Graham family. But anyway, his uncle is. His uncle was Billy Graham, a famous welterweight in the 50s. Yeah. I know that name.

Starting point is 02:00:43 You know a superstar Billy Graham. Beat Sugar Ray Robinson and the amateurs. Sugar Ray Robinson only lost twice in the amateurs. He was one of the guys that beat him. Sugar Ray Robinson never fought him as a pro. Wow. But Sugar Ray Robinson was under the name Walker Smith Jr. For two fights.

Starting point is 02:01:00 And those are the two fights he lost. So Sugar Ray Robinson never lost. That's how they get away. Yeah, that's how they get away with that. Technicality. Yeah. But anyway, he's like my best friend from childhood. I got to say Armand's one of my best friends. You know what I mean? Pete Lew and Armand are some of my best friends. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like AF guys, those guys are some of my best friends. Like I've been through such life experiences with them like Willie, Maddie, Roger Vin. And you can't, you know what I mean? Like all of these guys. You know what I mean? The Madwell guys, those are some of my best friends. Like I don't talk to these guys every day. But like I could be 85, 90 years old. I could run into these guys and we're going to be. crying, hugging each other. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 02:01:40 Yeah. Like, no matter what happens, no matter what happens between people, I love these people. There's no way around it. You know what I mean? Love to hear. Now, here's,

Starting point is 02:01:48 I have a question, because I suspect it's soon in this timeline. Craig, you are synonymous with the base strap that doubles, the double base strap around your neck. You know what I'm talking about?

Starting point is 02:02:01 Yes. When did that make its appearance? Uh, that was probably like 90, four so I knew it I knew it I blew a disc in my back when I uh in the 80s I broke a disc in my back I was a furniture mover I worked arm I worked that job with me as well so I was like doing furniture moving to make a living when I was in a F and you get it today and all that and I blew a disc in my back and after a while you know I couldn't walk for like a year right and I

Starting point is 02:02:33 just like laid the mattress on my mother's in my room in my mother's house and just like peed in the bottle. I was like so fucked up. Oh man. And I didn't know what was wrong. I had no medical insurance. So the disc just kind of, you know, I have no, I have a bag where the disc was. There's no fluid and it really just, it's messed up. So years later, like 10 years after that, I started, when I was playing shows to jump up, I started getting a lot of numbness. Like my fate, half of my face would be numb. Oh, my hands would start getting numb. My foot would be numb. And I was like, I don't feel right. Everything feels numb. Like, I'm half of my body. Like it was like a little lazy too i was like i was like am i having a stroke so i went to the doctor and they gave me an

Starting point is 02:03:11 MRI and they were like you have no your discis completely uh ruptured it's now desiccated they're like it looks really old though i don't get it and i was like 10 years ago i hurt myself on a moving job and i couldn't walk for a while you know i spent like a two months laying on mattress and they were like yeah that must be it so wow so i've been so i invented the double base strap because it put the weight on both sides and it stopped me from getting numb when i was would play shows. No kidding. The thing that was weird, though, the doctor, when he did the MRI results,

Starting point is 02:03:42 when he read them to me, he goes, it's really weird, though. He goes, you have scar tissue built up on the left side that's like mimicking the size of a disc. He goes, it's so strange that it did that. And I go, well, I go, if I were to put a weight on one side of my body and jump up and down repeatedly, yeah, jump up and down repeatedly, would that make that scar tissue? he goes, in theory, yeah, I go, well, that's what I do. And he's like, the guy was like kind of confused, but he was like, it's really weird. He goes, but none of the, it's not touching the nerves.

Starting point is 02:04:15 So I have a scar tissue there, which is like a callous. It's like a spinal callous or something. Yeah. That's the first time I ever saw you, the singer in my band is a bigger guy. He was playing bass in a band at the time that we played in together. And you told him, because you saw the bass strap falling off of his traps because he's pretty built and he told him you got to get this double one that used to happen to me that won't happen to you

Starting point is 02:04:38 that was that was the like that's Craighead since we haven't been playing sick of it all I've been doing some playing with different groups you know I had like a run with a one of the guys that was in the Ramones and then I played with Judge and stuff like that

Starting point is 02:04:56 and I well one of the guys he only got his left marquee but I was using a single strap with those guys because it wasn't like every day until we weren't playing a 20 show every day run six days a week so i was using a single strap and it works out okay but it kind of hurts after a few shows you know yeah but those shows weren't like back to back to back to back to back so it worked out you know interesting some guy patented that scumback come back and i think i know who he was because he came to a show and he was asking me about it one time he's like look and he was with another guy and they were like kind of

Starting point is 02:05:29 like like an animal in a cage or like look at how he did it you did it like this and the guy was an engineer. So, yeah, there you go. I mean, you can prove right of ownership. Nobody, no, the guy's patent has long since worn out, and he made no money on it. Nobody bought it. All right.

Starting point is 02:05:47 We'll get you, we'll get you going, the Craigahead strap. Bo's a lawyer, I guess. Let's get this thing going. Pose a half a lawyer. It's awkward lawyer. That's right. Wendy B. That's what she was doing in NYU.

Starting point is 02:05:59 Yeah, that's it. Patent technology. All right. It's time for you to finally do. do a record with Sick of It All. That record has scratched the surface. Let's talk about it. Okay.

Starting point is 02:06:11 You know, I joined the band and a lot of people were like, oh, my God, how's it going to sound with you? Like, Howie was like, I can't wait to hear what it's going to sound like? Because, you know, I was like a songwriter. You know what I mean? I wrote a lot of material. And we got a rehearsal space in Chinatown on the top floor of a building right off Canal Street.

Starting point is 02:06:29 And we shared it with like six other bands and like a magician. It was like this weird spot in this like Chinese building And they had like all kinds of stuff Stored helmet rehearsed there also So it was a there was like all these crates There were rats everywhere So we kept our gear there It was like this weird spot

Starting point is 02:06:48 And we would just go there every day and work on material So we would just practice and write material And I just you know at the time I was talking about how it was going to be a chef and I was going to go to culinary school in Rhode Island because I was dating a girl there and I had broken up with her so I was full-fledged back

Starting point is 02:07:09 like, oh, I'm not going to go to culinary school, whatever. And, you know, I was like kind of like, you know, like a little pissed off because it was kind of like, you know, like not a great situation living there. You know, it was like some ugly neighborhood shit. Anyway, so, you know, I wrote a bunch of good songs

Starting point is 02:07:28 because I was like a little agitated, you know what I mean? felt a little disrespectful. So it helped with the process, you know what I mean? So it made it what I think is a great album. So it was, you know, in retrospect, it was a good thing. You know what I'm glad it happened. Was it entirely collaborative, start to finish this whole record?

Starting point is 02:07:44 Yeah, we all wrote on that album. That was like, you know, Armand would be like, hey, I got this song and we'd mess with that song that day. And then Pete would be like, hey, I got this other song. And we'd mess with that, like, the next two days. And I'd be like, I got this song. So every song, we completely, completely. all worked together on that, it wound up being, even like Ernie Perada was involved in that,

Starting point is 02:08:08 like the song stepped down. We were touring with, before Black Chain Jack, it was, maybe it was Black Train Jack. We toured with them in Europe, and Ernie was the drummer for token entry. So one day we're set up outside because we're playing a festival and somehow we had power. I don't remember how that worked out. But I started playing the Step Down riff and Ernie was playing drums. I was like, oh, look, it's like an oist song. This is cool. And it turned out to be like the biggest hit sick of it all in the head. Wow.

Starting point is 02:08:35 And then we were like playing that. When we got back, we were like, yo, that song you were doing with Ernie. Let's do that. And they were like, a little bit like, ah, can we do an ice song? I was like, yeah, we can do whatever we want. You know what I mean? And let me tell you something, Craig. There's a lot of little steps in my journey here that, and my brother and I,

Starting point is 02:08:53 that molded our interest in hardcore music and got us to where we are. And the step down music video. is a gigantic stepping stone in that journey. Thank you. I loved that video. Why I watched the damn show for the enthusiasm. I loved that video and that song before I knew that songs had titles. I didn't know that songs had names.

Starting point is 02:09:17 I just knew. I like, there's a book report I wrote when I was in third or fourth grade, where I note that my favorite song is in the underground. That's hard. Because I didn't know what the hell stepped down was. I didn't know what that was. Let me ask you something, though.

Starting point is 02:09:32 How the hell? How the hell did we tour together and we didn't hang out every day and talk like this? I was 18 years old, bushy-eyed little fucker and I didn't know anything about nothing. But if you were into it, didn't you look like, hey, tell me about this. Like, it wouldn't. I just, I was too shy. It was my, it was the, so this is. You didn't ask me any questions about that stuff because I would have told you.

Starting point is 02:09:51 I was too shy. I was, I didn't. It was my first time. No, not at all. You guys were great. But also, I think it was three days long. and we probably three days and I think we were driving and you guys were flying

Starting point is 02:10:04 so it wasn't really like we didn't have time no no we didn't have time to really do this this is my when I played drums in Alpha and Omega we tour were sick of it all for maybe five shows yeah something like that a handful and uh and like I was I was very young but I loved straight ahead I loved rest in pieces I love sick of it also it was just very cool for me to to take that all in

Starting point is 02:10:25 and I wasn't like a an extroverted kid. You know, I played my songs and I went on my way. So this is Craig and I's first real time talking about this stuff. But that the step-down video is my first exposure to slam dancing. Oh, wow. Okay. And I imagine many others. Sure.

Starting point is 02:10:47 Who are all the moshers in this video? It was myself. I think 8108 was in that. she? She's doing the pizza maker. Yeah. And who else? Tim Shaw was the guy who fell down, right? He's doing the California. Thanks for that, by the way. And there was a couple of other guys. You know what I mean? Like, no, California used to do these days a big time circle pits back in the day. Oh, yeah. That's our. We got that. And now, dude, California now is forsaking the circle pit. How so? They think they don't like it. They think it's for metal and weird stuff. And it's like.

Starting point is 02:11:27 Like, dude, this is like as the circle pit is as core as it gets. Yeah. I mean, like before there was mosh, there was skank. Absolutely. And then skank and a circle. Yeah. And here we are. Strange.

Starting point is 02:11:40 It's strange the way things kind of. Respect the circle pit. It's like evolution, de-evolution. You know what I mean? Exactly. It's like you. You see the guy turns into a human, then he just like de-evolves back down. Back to monkey.

Starting point is 02:11:53 You don't want to go back to monkey. So it's you, are you speaking of, are you doing the, Gorilla Mosh in the video? I think I was the guy doing the classic New York style. Okay. You set it off. I just kind of did like a low swing. Nothing, nothing, nothing with a particular, no particular stamp on it.

Starting point is 02:12:14 Just a generic old school New York. I used to Mosh, you know, when I was young. Of course. So this, this music video got hit so far and wide that Beavis and Butthead would also review it. That's right. stating these dances are pretty cool, they said, and then invented a few of their own mosh moves.

Starting point is 02:12:34 And these mosh moves were called the dill hole. I remember that. The bung hole. I remember the bunghole specifically. And the fart knocker double inverted nad twists. I don't remember it at all. I think he's making it one of them. No, you'll see.

Starting point is 02:12:50 Here's the footage. Mike Judge made that one. Pretty good. Not Mike Judge. No, different Mike Judge. The other Mike Judge. You think they ever met?

Starting point is 02:13:07 No, no, I don't think so. Shame. As far as I'm concerned, I mean, there might be two Mike judges, but for me, there's one Mike Judge,

Starting point is 02:13:13 my friends. That's right. Beautiful. He played drums in Eutha today when I was in Euthan today when Tommy left. That's right. There we go.

Starting point is 02:13:20 And that's how we got to be friends. I mean, I met him before. I was friends with Mark Ryan. He was the drummer for Youth of Today, the second half of me being in the youth of today. All these drummers, man. Well, it makes sense because it's all, it's a rhythmic genre, right?

Starting point is 02:13:35 It's all it is. It makes sense. And then Mike says to me, he goes, I'm going to start a new band. I'm going to sing. I go, you're going to sing? And he goes, we kind of want to do like hardcore, but we're like metal guitar. He goes, I want to make it sound like heavy. He goes, you know about all that stuff.

Starting point is 02:13:50 He goes, you're into that metal stuff. He's like, what records do I get? I was like, uh, he's like, give him to Purcell. I was like, all. I take the Kill'em All, Metallica, the first Exodus album, I go and maybe listen to a Slayer album. I was like, I guess that would work, you know what I mean? He's like, I'm talking, Craig from, from NYC Mayhem, proto-death metal band. He wanted like, yeah, he wanted the 80 to 83 Craig, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 02:14:14 Deep cut. Deep cuts, deep cuts. That's from the band that invented the blast beat. He had to get his. Yeah, deep cuts, deep cuts. Scratch the surface, your first song with the first album with the band, and you still play seven to nine songs from this thing every time you play yeah yeah great job there's a couple there's a couple songs i wanted to play that they would never play though they would like

Starting point is 02:14:38 because like louis though yeah what are you doing what's the matter with you he'd like you know he turned into the three joke he'd like act like a grump you know what i mean and get mad at me i wanted to stick together like the real generic songs the ones that almost sound like bad skate punk i wanted to play those type of song could you do me a favor next when when sick what all plays again I know that, you know, let's just look around. I like the way you said that. Okay. But when you play again.

Starting point is 02:15:02 Thank you. The pain strikes. Yeah, we used to always do that. Give it to me. That's a powerful. That's like jump. You know what the problem with that song is though? That's a hurt your skeleton song.

Starting point is 02:15:12 That song hurts a lot. What, like the verses and stuff? It's like a jump up and down, break your. Oh, yeah. That song is like, dude, you get to that end part and you're bringing, when you're cut coming in. you got to go off. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:15:28 So I get it. The first half of the song is jump up and down and like my skeleton, you crushy skeleton. Then the second half is like wave back and forth and like hurt your neck. And then the end with the lead. It's like a weird confused song. Give me a back. It's like,

Starting point is 02:15:45 it's like that's like Brooklyn Stomp meets like 70s punk. It's like a weird confused song. Good song. And I need it back. All right. We always did it, you know? We always did it. Last time I, the last four or five times I saw you, I don't think you played it.

Starting point is 02:16:00 So I need it back. Yeah, we used to do it years ago. It hasn't been back in a long time. Pete loves that song. He's always like, we do the pain strikes. He's always pushing for the paint strikes. Me too, Pete. He gets to hurt himself on that song.

Starting point is 02:16:11 He likes to hurt himself. And he gets to do the fucking. That's fun. Yeah, his skeleton holds up pretty well. You know what I mean? I mean, he's fucking Ben Jacked, the whole. time. He's got like a titanium skeleton or something.

Starting point is 02:16:27 The broken back doesn't work well with the knee operations, you know, but that's hardcore. What are you going to do? Exactly. I remember Jimmy used to wear the, he used to wear the knee pads. And I'd be like, Jimmy, he'd always be like, yeah, I got hardcore knee. I'd be like, I got Harcourney too. Harcourney. I got like operations Harcourney.

Starting point is 02:16:45 It's like a thing. When does Europe as a second home to New York hardcore really become a thing? I think the first New York band that went there was G.B. in 89, actually. No shit. G.B. went there. People don't really know that, but G.B. went there in 89. That A.F. went there in 90. And Sycambeiro went there in 92. So I went there with A.F. from 90 to 92, a whole bunch of times. And then once I joined Sycambeville on, like, 93, they already went once.

Starting point is 02:17:14 And now we just, like, went nonstop. We live there. Yeah. Yeah. Europe had European bands playing. other bands didn't play there much. You had bands come through some West Coast bands, but it wasn't like a big thing. And basically we just lived in Europe for like a decade,

Starting point is 02:17:30 and it got really popular over there. Not to be contrarian, but I know that Youth Today went really early too, because they got stuck at the Russian border and the TM convinced them that they were a soccer team because they looked so sporty. That's great. And they got through.

Starting point is 02:17:48 It's a great story. Dude, Porcel used to have TrueToldeth.net, and it was an amazing website for a nerd like me because all these things around there. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. American hardcore, you know, he's a wealth of dollars. He's American Heartcore.

Starting point is 02:18:02 I think that was 88, 89, like around there, so. So that was right when the doors opened. Right. I didn't know. Straight edge got there first. Hey. It always does. It always does.

Starting point is 02:18:17 All right. So built to last. Electra Records. Madonna got you. She got you. Hook, line, and sinker. Tell me about what you remember from this record and the time frame. I remember being like, scratch the surface had gotten really popular.

Starting point is 02:18:33 I remember playing on a, like, a Wednesday or a Wednesday night, somewhere in like the Pacific Northeast. And there were like six, 800 people at the show. And I was like, it's like a Tuesday night. and we're playing some like second tier northwestern spot and there's like at least 700, 750 people there. I'm like, what's happening here? We've done it. It got really big.

Starting point is 02:19:00 Like we were playing these shows that were like 1,200 people here, 1,500 people here. You know, a small show would be like 600 people. I was like, what the, like when it's happening, you almost don't realize, but I'm sort of like, wow, we're like, this is doing really well. What's going on? Like, you don't know. You just know that like you want your clothes to. dry, you got to hang them up because they're wet and you don't want to play. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:19:22 I got to play in wet socks and underwear. I hate that. You know what you know. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. That's your worry. You know what I mean? And like, oh, I'm hungry, but I can't eat because I got to eat afterwards.

Starting point is 02:19:32 I hope the sandwich will still be good after I play. Yeah. And it's not. And it's not. Never was good. Never was good. So let me ask. What would you accredit that to?

Starting point is 02:19:41 I think that scratchy surface just came out at a time where New York Hardcore broke. And we had been putting. in so much work for so many years. Like, well, Scratch Service wasn't so many years, but it just hit. Yeah. It just hit. And like the MTV thing picked it up a little bit. So it was on there in Europe.

Starting point is 02:19:58 We were like busting it out. I just think it hit. And we were like kind of like the New York Hard Corp kind of broke with that. We were one of the bands that like kind of got it. Big time. Like big and like almost almost like weirdly semi commercial, I guess. Yeah. Did Scratch the Surface go gold or anything like that?

Starting point is 02:20:16 Scratchy Surface broke the. top 100. That's right. Which at that time is insane. Yeah, insane. Unimaginable. Yeah, that album sold over a quarter a million copies. I know that. Certified silver. Yeah, it's over 300 by now, you know? So yeah,

Starting point is 02:20:31 whatever they call it, silver or whatever. I got a silver record at my house. There we go. Wow. So Bill to Last hits, how is that received? Is it like, are you reaping the benefits of Scratch the Surface now?

Starting point is 02:20:45 Yeah, well, built to last was like sort of like, oh wow that last album people really loved it and i was like saying guys i for this next album i want to bring back the old pile up because you know you play cbys and they'd be like a chorus and everyone would pile up on the singer and it'd be a big pile up like people don't really do pileups that much anymore but i was like i want to bring the pile up back i want to bring the pile up back i want to have more chorus i go the last album we hit hard it was a little dark for us even i go i want to bring back the the pile up and like the a little more of the punk aspects of our sound.

Starting point is 02:21:20 I mean, and step down hits so hard that why would you not naturally just go? Okay, let's do that. So we, you know, kind of like, you know, end of the song built to last. You know what I mean? It has that like, you know, it's almost like pirate sounds, swashbuckler or whatever. We always say it's a real swachbuckler when we left, you know. But it's like it's like a pile up. You know, it won't go away.

Starting point is 02:21:42 It has that like people jump on the stage and pile up by them. So we were going for that and like us versus them. and we went out to California. We recorded it in L.A. Up on the hill. What's the name of that area? Up on the hill in L.A. Yeah, that area up on the hill.

Starting point is 02:22:01 Right in L.A. You go up the hill and it's like a nice little area up the hill in L.A. It's like... The hill. Not the hill, but it's like when you're in downtown L.A. and you go past like the whiskey and all those places and it goes up and back there. Oh, are you in the valley? No, not in the valley.

Starting point is 02:22:18 We're in like L.A. Come to the valley. Come on over. Come on, man. I mean, if you're past sunset and you're going over a hill. Well, he says in the hill. So what's the... In the hill.

Starting point is 02:22:30 Yeah, I don't know. I know about there. We had like one of those like apartments, those long stay apartments. Like a long stay apartment. We stayed there and we recorded at a studio up there on the hill with Garth Richardson. And the thing that was weird was, he was like, I have enough drums. And I was like, I didn't even play the song. He goes, I'm just going to take the.

Starting point is 02:22:46 parts to come together where he was like, I don't play like that. And the guy wanted to cut everything together. And we were like, yeah, that's not how we play. He goes, it'll sound better. Trust me. And I'm like, ah, so we tried a little bit of his way. And, you know, we've done that. We did that.

Starting point is 02:23:02 We've done that, you know, but it's like, we kind of want to get a good take. And then maybe if we have to like edit a little punch and punch. Yeah, like if the second verse, he's falling apart or we'll cut the first verse in. But usually the second verse, it's not always the same. Like everything, that's what's good about hardcore. Everything kind of has like a jerkiness. Dynamic. Yeah, of course.

Starting point is 02:23:21 The imperfection is what makes it. So he would like, I'd come in early. Like, I'd come in a lot and I was in the room with him a lot. And he's like, all right, I got it's ready to go. I go, okay, play it for me. And he'd play like a song and I'd be like, that's not it. And I'd be like, no, it cuts here. And I'd explain it to him and he didn't really know the material that well.

Starting point is 02:23:41 So I had to be like, look, man, you got to let this guy play through. This isn't working. So he did a lot of cutting, but we also, he also let Armand play through for reference and then took the parts, some of the parts and moved him around. So we had to kind of like get him off of his ultra production stuff. Yeah, that's crazy. It's a common. It's not understanding the vibe at all. We recorded that album.

Starting point is 02:24:04 We were in there for a while. It was a lot of fun. We had friends out there. And we had like kind of like wild times during the recording of that. some funny stories I won't get into here because they're not really for public consumption but like we were young men and we were having fun living in LA for a month we're in LA yeah yeah you know like you know it was fun

Starting point is 02:24:29 it sounds like you're in like Laurel Canyon area that's what I yeah might be which is you know it leads to the valley so it's good yeah it's like it's like the top of LA and then I go over there yeah yeah over here you go over there that's good yeah exactly when do you guys start playing mafia on tour? Oh, that's way later. Okay. So we're on tour like, you know, I don't know how long ago,

Starting point is 02:24:55 probably early 2000s, later 2000s. And like I think, I don't know, we might have started playing with Madball, but I think it was the unearth guys, but I know the unearth guys were kind of the guys responsible for that whole thing. And they brought it to Madball, and I think Madball brought us in.

Starting point is 02:25:11 And we would play. And it was a lot of fun. The problem is, Like you get with my personality, I have fun with it. Like you can see I'm smiling now. I, some people would be like, I didn't like you when I first met you. I could we played mafia the first time about you. I'm like, oh, that's just a game.

Starting point is 02:25:28 Yeah. That's how you become an expert mafioso. Yeah. People were like, you were yelling at me and like, you know, the one was one sound man in Europe. He's like, you were yelling at me. I wanted to punch you in the face. I was like, it's a game. We're friends.

Starting point is 02:25:39 You know what I mean? I'm winning. Yeah, I'm winning. I'm playing. You want me to lose? I haven't played that in so many years. It was so much fun, though. Colin, we should organize a game of mafia with us and a bunch of these New York guys.

Starting point is 02:25:54 Sounds incredible. Just so are we. We'll make it work. Hey, you never lose the Mafia. The guys from on Earth. Buzz. Buzz, slow was incredible. The bass player, dude.

Starting point is 02:26:13 Dude was such a good play. I saw him one time play a game, but the problem is when you have new guys, they're way more dangerous because they kill people that know what they're doing. It's just like reckless. But I remember Slow, he was like a game of like 20 people.

Starting point is 02:26:27 And at the end, he's all quiet. Everyone's like going after him. And he goes, okay. And he points to this one kid. He goes, you said this in round three. And now you just said this. So that proves. And I was like, oh my God,

Starting point is 02:26:41 how did this guy? this guy's holding on to it that long. I was like, this guy's incredible. And they voted slow out because the kids, they started yelling and they didn't really understand what he was saying. I was like, this dude is like a, this guy's like a legend. I can't believe it. Don Corleone.

Starting point is 02:26:58 Yeah, he was like, you know, like, yeah, he was like, you know, like, yeah, he was like Don Corleone. So how are you, how are you guys passing time on tour from like 94 to 99? A lot of jokes making fun of each other a lot. like I'm like doing crazy stuff left and right I'm like doing all kinds of shenanigans and they're like laughing at what I'm doing you know they're like enjoying my

Starting point is 02:27:22 stuff further herniating that disco further herniating that disc yes terribly Armand is like being Armand so he's bringing a lot of comedy to the table Lou is complaining and yelling and in the middle of yelling like acting like he's mad he starts laughing like he can't even keep it in you know what I mean?

Starting point is 02:27:40 And, you know, Pete's just like vomiting. He's laughing so hard the whole time. And he throws in like a good one-liner here and day. You know, it's like these guys are like actual comedians. Their thing is like slapstick humor and just have fun. You know what I mean? Beautiful. Call to Arms, 99.

Starting point is 02:27:59 Fat wreck, baby. Love that record. Great record. To me, that record is. Potential for a fall. Top 10. Sick of it all track. That record to me is just like a straight up, fast,

Starting point is 02:28:09 hardcore record that like served simply we didn't try it i was like let's just write a record let's just write a fast aggressive hardcore record let's keep the songs short we don't need to expand anymore because we expand it a little bit on scratch and on built we're like let's bring it let's hone it back in elbows in tight and short short shots keep it keep it simple yeah this is 16 songs in 32 minutes yeah which you know they may be two minutes now but that proves that there's still some straight ahead in you. I remember the first song, Let Go. I wrote that song. And when I wrote it, I go, this sounds exactly like adrenaline overdose. I was like, this is a total AOD song. That's what it sounds like aOD to me. And I remember, I was like, I wanted the record to start out.

Starting point is 02:28:51 Because, you know, it just starts with guitar. I wanted the record to start out where you hear like like the buzz of the cable on the road. And then he picks it up and plugs it in and then starts playing it. And they were like, no, that's like so amateur. I go, no, that's what's supposed to be the start of that song. But they didn't want to do it and we didn't do it, but it still came out okay. But can you hear that? Like the way that riff is like, it's like a thin, fast riff. It sounds like AOD. Like, I hear that. I hear that. There's the, I mean, this is, this sounds like you've been in the band for three records now. Yeah. And you've got your, you've got your process down. I really like the bass sound I got on that record. I got a nice bass sound. You remember what you

Starting point is 02:29:33 used? I used a bass. I used a bass. I called Wally Brown. It's a Schechter body with a walnut neck. It had a walnut neck, which is pretty rare. Yeah. It was a little, it was kind of heavy. It had the EMG PJ split, which is my thing. I use an active EMG, EMG PJ split. And I put a badass two bridge on it.

Starting point is 02:29:53 And I bought it like used from like beer truck, who's a guy that was a Rody for Biohazard. He worked on 48th Street. So I bought it from beer truck and I got it like, whatever he would get, he got a base here you're gonna like. And he'd be like, how much? He'd be like, oh, $262. He's like, that's what we paid for that.

Starting point is 02:30:10 I'd have to give him the cost. Yeah. And he actually, my red base, he found a base of what I call white. It's a white red. It's red, but white and a little different, but made by the same guy that made those. So it's the only two of the scene. So you have both? Yeah, that was like $245.

Starting point is 02:30:29 You know what I mean? No money at all. He just like, pay. Has red ever come close to a ticket? Just a ticket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Has Red ever come close to having to be put down? Well, you know, back in the 80s, I was like, I was going to sell Red.

Starting point is 02:30:43 I was like, oh, you can buy it. Oh, man. I just had this weird idea that I was going to sell Red to this kid I went to school with. And I let him use it for like the high school talent show. He was like a bass player and he went up and did some weird stuff on bass. And he like, I think he played like this like Seinfeld, but maybe Seinfeld probably didn't exist back then. But whatever he did, he played some like weird base stuff. And then I was like, no, just give it back to me.

Starting point is 02:31:06 And I was like, took it back and that was it. I always regret selling guitars and amps. And shirts. And shirts. And shirts. And shirts. Yeah. I actually wanted to ask you about that, Craig.

Starting point is 02:31:20 Before this, mid-80s stuff. The straight ahead youth today around that time. There are shirts and merchandise that exists, but they are printed in someone's little brothers high school. They're all medium. They're all sized of medium. They're all crooked and crazy. How conscious were you of like, oh, we're making a shirt and this might be around or

Starting point is 02:31:45 we're making sure, let's make sure it looks good or like. I was never a record collector or a collector. Those youth of today guys were totally like that. And I always be like, ah, what am I going to do? Like I was like not organized. I just wanted to play. So like those guys were record collectors. They had all this stuff.

Starting point is 02:32:00 I just looked like, yeah, yeah, whatever. I didn't care. but I have unopened End the Warzone with the sticker on a whole bunch of them Still sealed and everything I think Tommy has two test pressings Of End the Warzone

Starting point is 02:32:14 Of the 12 inch Breakaway? I think he has breakaway test pressing First one ever off the presses We were talking about selling some of this stuff Maybe we were like yeah maybe we'll sell something If somebody's gonna want it you know what I mean Don't do it

Starting point is 02:32:28 Don't do it Don't do it okay Or give it me. But the first... T-shirts. Yeah, T-shirts. My friend had a thrift shop in Queens

Starting point is 02:32:40 on, like, Bell Boulevard in Queens back in, like, the early 90s. And I had all these 80s shirts, and he got my good friend, my friend, Stevie G, he was in the step-down video. They got the blonde flat top. Okay. And I'm like, he's like, oh, I got the thrift shop. I got a thrift shop on the second floor.

Starting point is 02:32:54 I go, ah, you want to sell my hardcore shirts? He's like, yeah. So I brought him, like, a big bag of the crackdown shirt, A.F. Victim and Paying shit. Like everything you could ever imagine. Like everything. And I gave them all these shirts. And like you sold them for like five bucks,

Starting point is 02:33:11 10 bucks, eight. But back then five bucks was like 20 is now 15. Yeah. But now those are a down payment on a house. Yeah. Now those would go for like 800,000 bucks each, which is insane. Insane. And I just let all that stuff go.

Starting point is 02:33:25 Like I think like, oh, what was I thinking? I lived it though. Who could have predicted? Yeah, no one could predict it. You know, you know the deal. If you live something, you don't think of it like that. You think of it as, oh, that was a great time. Something I didn't ask earlier, why is the original, the first batch of breakaway 12 inches?

Starting point is 02:33:41 Why is it just the sticker instead of the artwork? Because it was, you know, oh, like, we didn't have a place to get the sleeves. To get the record pressed with artwork was like too expensive and too much work. So we just went with like disco, old school like disco 12 inches with the, the, cut out in the center and then we got a bunch of stickers made and just put them on there like just DIY like ghetto just like you have a copy with the sticker i got like probably 10 12 unopened ones that's what i'm talking about i have a whole bunch of those you know how much those sell for how much 500 to a thousand dollars so i'll buy a new car yeah jesus with this with with this

Starting point is 02:34:27 if they got the sticker on them yeah that's crazy yeah i got all that stuff because the the blank one uh with sticker, like where the sticker fell off is $350 to $500. That's crazy. Where do you sell them all? Like what's the what's the disguise? Disgogs or we got guys we can connect. I have like I have like a gatefold original victim in pain with Rogers copy and it has like a hole in it because he like dropped something on it like burned a hole in it.

Starting point is 02:34:54 I'm like that. I got like I got like the bad brains pay to come seven inch. I got like a bunch of stuff. You're going to be having some people reach out about these break away. All right. I wasn't even a collector. I just was, you know, involved. I wasn't like some guys, I know. Like, I kept it. My stuff probably not pristine. Some of it might be because it's just sitting in a box and like my mother's like closet probably. Amazing. Unbelievable. Where does she live? No, no, no. Queens. Let's talk about call to arms real quick a little bit more before we move on. Any, any fond memories of this era in sick of it all? that was like fun we hooked up with fat mike to do the record and fat mike was always a really cool guy we're all friends with them and it was weird because the west coast always had their act together

Starting point is 02:35:41 they were like businessmen dialed in east coast never the hardcore scene we never like pulled it together everybody was sort of like doing their own thing so it was nice to deal with him he got me when we went there and he had like the big metal the big like tin tray filled with those uh you know the clear wrapped like uh the vietnamese spring rolls i was like we got to do the record him. Yeah, Big Tradoes. I was like,

Starting point is 02:36:03 yeah, Mike, we're doing the record. Give me some more. There's like a hundred. And then you did two more. So it must have been pretty good relationship. Yeah,

Starting point is 02:36:09 the relationship was really good. He was a very, very honest. He is a very honest man and very, very fair. He gave us a deal financially that it was unbelievable. He basically, like,

Starting point is 02:36:22 you know, like he, he's like, I already have a lot of money. I'm not too worried. I'm going to make sure you guys get paid. So that was cool. The dream.

Starting point is 02:36:30 The problem was, like, his label, hardcore kids, I wouldn't say they discriminated against it. They disregarded it a little bit. Yeah, it was. It was. At that point, labels kind of mattered, you know what I mean? And he's doing pretty much everything else he's doing is not hardcore. Right. Yeah, it's like West Coast punk.

Starting point is 02:36:50 But, you know, great. It's all hardcore. Listen, I first met Mike on tour when I was touring with, I think, Youth Today. And I remember meeting him, it shows when I was young. like he was always drunk and like at one time I pulled him out of a at the farm in San Francisco I pulled him out of a puddle he was like in a puddle of mud like half drowning and people were laughing out and flicking cigarette side of him I was like yeah what do you guys do I pulled them out of side him up I was like yo we were he was always a good guy but like you know he

Starting point is 02:37:19 back then hardcore and that it was all one thing yeah of course those all these west coast guys are coming to play like they're coming to play it was all the same thing just different parts of the same same scene you know that's kind of where we are now again yeah i love truly everything is one it's true uh mob deep using the sick of it all dragon tell me about that uh they um i guess they were you know in their friend group they'd all get it on their hand so it was like some like uh tattoo they'd all get because you know it was originally it was flesh okay but we wound up getting the ownership of that flash from using it so it became our similar legally.

Starting point is 02:38:01 Yeah. So they used it and then they put it on their record and we had a little conversation with them through friends and people that worked at their label knew us. So we talked a little bit with them and they were cool. And we wound up doing that song together that, and that was one of the songs where Armine played bass, that mob deep track because he wrote it. It's like, I have a song. Let me just play it.

Starting point is 02:38:19 I was like, yeah, go ahead. So he did that. And they were cool. And just recently, a few years ago, they started using it again. And we were like, hey, we went through all this. you know what I mean like and uh it was through uh what's that company that uh whatever supreme and we were like yeah and they were like kind of like yeah whatever whatever they were like kind of like like you know not taking it seriously so like you know we were like yeah you got to stop using it and

Starting point is 02:38:47 they they they play the game with us and we wound up suing them and getting a little bit of money for it so you know like hey we already went through this you're going to make it happen again and then just recently i saw an interview they were using it again like one of the guys I guess, like, there's only a couple of those guys left, and this was one of the guys that maybe didn't know back then how it went. But I saw one of the guys was using it. And I saw it in the comments, he's like, yeah, this band, this band from Queens, like nobody ever heard of them.

Starting point is 02:39:16 They probably have like four followers. I was like, are you, I wrote something like, you kidding me? Like, we got like a half a million followers. Are you like, what are you doing? Like, I was like, from you from you doing. Yeah, I was like, and it's our thing. we've been through this a couple times already. Like, what are you doing?

Starting point is 02:39:32 I didn't write directly to the guys wrote in the comments. I was like, what are you doing? Like, you know what I mean? It's becoming an ATM. It's just weird. You know what I mean? Keep doing it, guys. Yeah, keep on going, I guess.

Starting point is 02:39:42 When do you move out of the city? I still got a place in Queens. I still have a color. That's what's up. But I moved, 2010, I bought a farm upstate a couple hours out. Oh, beautiful. Now, at this point in your life, as a farm man. As a farm man.

Starting point is 02:39:58 I tell people up here, one friend of mine up here, he saw an interview where I go, you know, I'm a farmer in upstate New York. He, next time I saw him, he was laughing. He's like, you're a farmer in upstate New York. I was like, all right, all right, all right. I go to everybody else. I'm a farmer. He's like, because he's a farmer. He's like, you're a farmer.

Starting point is 02:40:15 You're a bass player in a fucking punk band. And I was like, he slapped me around a little. It was funny. As somebody who is farm adjacent. Yes, Farmer Jason. Is this when you get into. Bigfoot? Oh, well, I've always been into Bigfoot.

Starting point is 02:40:33 First I started with sharks. I was big on the sharks thing. When I was younger, I liked sharks. The sharks thing, leads you to Bigfoot. Arm on those guys, they say there are three slides with me. Boxing slide. Yeah. Bigfoot slide, pretty girl slide.

Starting point is 02:40:51 They're like the three slides. Like, oh, the slide switch. Now it's, you know, now it's boxing. Oh, now we're back to Bigfoot. Oh, look, a pretty girl walk by. This is what I want. When I was younger, when I was young, not now. I was younger, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 02:41:01 Yeah. Bigfoot's interesting to me. Let's talk squash. You're a squash guy? I could be. Listen. I think it's fun. It's like a fun fantasy, but I think it's real probably.

Starting point is 02:41:13 It's perfectly reasonable that something, there are so many square miles in North America that it can't be explored. There's caves, there's dense forests, there's all kinds of shit. I think it's perfectly, we discover new species every. day all the time. Indians and the first settlers that came over here, they all talked about it and wrote about it. You know, it's probably a very, it probably stays way in the background. It's probably very scared. And I'm sure that there is, I'm sure it's been discovered, but just for whatever reason, maybe it's kept kind of quiet. Probably I would think for the most simple answer would be because of regulations and, you know, that would have to happen to protect a

Starting point is 02:41:57 species like that that would mess up the logging industry and things like that. I mean, I can't really say for sure, but on the surface, that would make sense, you know? Do you think there's only one? No. How could there be one? If there was one, it would die and I think there's little pockets of them, but I think they're very, very, very deep. I think there's like little family units. It's probably not a lot of them. But, you know, I don't want to say I could be wrong because with all the sightings and all this, I think it's definitely there. But how much of it and what exactly it is, I can't tell you. There's like big other, there's other like fauna rhinos and certain kinds of like Siberian tigers and stuff like that where there's less than hundreds of them left.

Starting point is 02:42:38 It's perfectly reasonable. I don't necessarily believe in it, but I'll say this. If they actually discovered it and there was definitive proof, I wouldn't be that surprised. I think they probably already have discovered that probably is definitive proof. But they're not putting it like, okay, let's talk about this because they probably weighed the pros and cons. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, with the, okay, so our forest resources stop now a lot because this thing that we can't find is deep in the forest. So the logging industry screwed a lot of natural resources. If you want to like, you know, but like if you want to really go out on a limb, talk about dog ban. What's that? Tell me about dog man. Michigan dog man. It's supposed to be like a werewolf. They say it's in Michigan and our land between the lakes. Supposedly a family was killed there. Whether any of this is true, I have no idea. But. People see it, allegedly.

Starting point is 02:43:28 Another cryptid? Yeah, it's like a giant, like, giant, like, dog that goes on two legs, like a giant, like, werewolfly thing. Pretty cool. Listen, when you're watching YouTube and I'm not watching the hard lore, I'll go to Dog Man of Bigfoot because it's fun. Or I'll watch some, like, early hardcore footage. Or I'll watch some, like, nerd-based stuff because I actually, like, you know, I'll watch, like, mathematical base to get better on the instrument. I got two questions for you, Craig. Are you a Victor Wooten man?

Starting point is 02:43:55 Victor Wooten, I think, is really, really good. I think he's great. I think the guy's like a phenom, and I think he's a great player, and I like the things he says. Stylistically, though, I don't really relate to that. He's very foreign to me. Ask me your other question.

Starting point is 02:44:10 I'll tell you who I do relate to. Well, my next one is going to be Mothman. Oh, Moffman's cool, yeah. There was a sighting. I went over where that bridge was when I played in Virginia with the take recently. That was cool. There was a sighting a couple of years ago

Starting point is 02:44:24 at Lollapalooza in Chicago. Dozens of people saw a mothman fly by. That's crazy. Yeah. And it was reported at O'Hare. Someone at O'Hare reported it, too. I feel like you're going to see me on like some kind of show talking about that. And I'll give you credit.

Starting point is 02:44:43 And people will be like, oh, this guy's another. I used to like his music. You talk with a chupacabra? I don't know much about it. But, you know, that's my favorite. That's like another one that, like, I'll, you know, I may watch like a short, but as far

Starting point is 02:44:59 as Victor Wooten. Yes, yes. Victor Wooten, he can play. But the bass player, if you want to talk about one of those like really big bass, obviously I'd say James Jamerson from Frank Brothers, my favorite. But the guy I relate to is Marcus Miller. He's from Queens. He's from

Starting point is 02:45:14 Jamaica Queens. And I watched a video of him laying tracks on an album. And he brought him in and he played and his sound was you know, thick. And he's doing this stuff and it sounds like nasty and there's like a beat heavy beat behind it and I was like yo I goes this this is like me laying tracks on an album but a hundred but he's a hundred times better I go but it had that it felt like a hardcore it felt like if you were playing in a studio and it was a good session where it

Starting point is 02:45:40 sounded thick and you're like banging and you're like oh I'm crushing on this drum track I can relate to it because it wasn't just like plucky and big bidding it was like yeah it was rocking I was like my my dad my dad growing up My dad's a bass player. I was always a bass player. So it was always Victor Wooten and Jaco Pistoro. He loved Jocko. Those guys are very, very technical.

Starting point is 02:46:05 Technical, yes, very much. You know, like, I dig it. You know what I mean? Like, I figured out some stuff. I watch when he does. I figured out to look. But the way they present is more flowery. I'm more of a hard rock.

Starting point is 02:46:18 Hard rock. I can play smooth acoustic and all that. But like, you know, I feel like there's more, like, when I watch Marcus Miller play there's more ass there's more weight to his playing I like some weight in the playing it's why I like like like and twistle

Starting point is 02:46:32 geezer you know what I mean I'm a clay pool man myself we are we are two hours and 47 minutes into this this feels like five minutes fellas that's what I'm saying and we've got seven Sick of It All records left

Starting point is 02:46:45 but I think that just proves that Sick It All has been one of the most consistent bands in the genre ever never stopping, constantly evolving, but never changing and leaving what you've done behind. How much has changed for sick of it all in this now kind of back half of the band's story? As far as we just, we always said this amongst ourselves, like no matter what we play, we always play it like us. So even when we do like a song that's a little weird, it still sounds like us.

Starting point is 02:47:22 It still has rough vocals, heavy drums, and thick bass. And we just kind of have that weight to the way we play, I guess. So, like, what you're saying is, like, even when we do something, every album sounds different, but it still sounds like us. So it's in the way we play, I think, that makes that happen more than anything, you know? There's like a way we kind of present like that, you know. The back half, there's not much of a, I mean, it's the same kind of thing. we were touring a little bit less, not a lot less, but enough so that we don't, you know, people have kids, so they need to be around a little more.

Starting point is 02:47:59 Not that much of a difference, you know. You know, trying to strip it down the last bit, try to keep it simple. We're trying to keep, I started tour managing the last bunch of years. So I was handling the Armad was the administrator and I was the live tour manager. saying yeah so we we brought things in a little closer the last bunch of years you know and everything was good everything was going great and uh you know the situation with lou you know has has temporarily put us on a hiatus uh you know how's he's he's he's doing okay it's one day at a time i don't really have much to report from his last uh the last time he went on and talked you know

Starting point is 02:48:46 he had the sea they completely got rid of it three months later it came back and it's in a spot that they can't really operate. They can't cut him in those spots because there's a sack around his stomach. They can't cut into it. So they're doing some treatments and they've stopped the progress, but it's still there. But they had to stop the treatments temporarily because when you get all of this stuff done to you, your liver has to filter all this stuff. So your liver readings can get a little skewed. So if they get skewed past a certain point they have to back off and let him sort of adjust to it yeah right right so right now you know it's one day at a time we're going to see what happens i pray every day my brother i love him i hope

Starting point is 02:49:32 he's okay and uh you know this isn't an overnight thing this is this is the thing we got to deal with so it's one day at a time and i'm just trying to keep a good uh a good a good head and still stay out there playing music and you know with the whole straight ahead thing going back to that the fact that this tragedy happened. If straight ahead comes out and we, we, you know, do some nice stuff,

Starting point is 02:49:56 pick up on some, some good, fun, spirited stuff, you know, it's, it's, it's,

Starting point is 02:50:03 the activity and keeping the spirit going is, is a good thing. That's because you got to stay positive at a time like this, you know? 100%. Absolutely. And, you know,

Starting point is 02:50:11 like, Lou is, I'm pretty sure, front and center in that straight ahead video. Oh, yeah, Lou's all about it. You're kidding me.

Starting point is 02:50:19 So I hope he gets to see it. Oh, yeah. Lou and Pete were like the straight ahead guys. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and then I would be when they would play. You know, we were all friends, you know? Were you at the Killing Time last show at Seabies in 1990? Last show?

Starting point is 02:50:38 I don't. I might have been on tour. I don't know. Because Pete and Lou are on stage moshing the whole time. Yeah, I was probably, I love Killing Times. Great. I just saw Anthony his father passed away. unfortunately.

Starting point is 02:50:50 Oh. His father was a good, good men. His father and my father were friends back in the old days. So I ate at Anthony's house when I was four years old. Wow.

Starting point is 02:51:01 And that's old school Italian. Yeah. And then when I met him, my father and him used to play cards together. And then I met Anthony's, I went to Anthony's house for Christmas when I was like maybe 15 in hardcore. He'd have the best Christmas gatherings.

Starting point is 02:51:14 All the hardcore kids would come over. And his mom would cook, rest of soul. And his father would tell jokes. And, you know, his sister and him would argue was like the funnest, the funnest thing ever. So I went to his house when I was 15. I came in. I go, I've been here before.

Starting point is 02:51:28 And he said, what do you mean? And I'm like, there was a dirt bike, like an RM 250. I go right by the fireplace and there was plastic on the ground. He's like, what? Called his father over. He's like, tell him. I go, there was a dirt bike there. It was, you know, maybe 10, 12 years ago.

Starting point is 02:51:42 And he's like, yeah, that was my cousin, so-and-so. And he goes, how do you know that? I said, I ate here. And then Anthony goes, yeah, his father, you know, it's Craig Satari, his father, Rocco. And, you know, Anthony started telling, talking jokes. Like, oh, his father was this and that, you know, they knew each other very well. You know, back in the 70s, everybody was a hard guy, I guess. Sure.

Starting point is 02:52:06 So Anthony's cracking jokes. Oh, his father, this father, this father, and Anthony's father, looked at Anthony, gave him a straight look. And he goes, he looked at me, he goes, he was my good friend. I loved your father. And, you know, he looked at Anthony like, Don't say that. Don't say anything. Even though you're joking.

Starting point is 02:52:21 Yeah. Old school guys. Old school. Anthony's father was a good man. And every time I saw him, he's like a totally courteous guy. He was a great guy and may rest in peace, Mr. Commonwealth. Absolutely. We were talking to Mark from Floor Punch a few weeks ago on the show.

Starting point is 02:52:37 And he noted that there was a killing time floor punch show booked. But that Anthony canceled the show because his father had a dream that Anthony died in New Jersey. All right. Fair enough. That's old school jersey. That's old school Jersey. That's old school Jersey, old school Italian. I've had premonitions that have come true in weird instances.

Starting point is 02:53:01 I won't get into it here. But maybe another time we'll talk about that. Sounds good. Either privately or whatever. Yeah, that's off the record. When you have, you know about Sugar A Robinson, the boxer? You heard of Sugar A Robinson, the original. I heard that I heard, I heard, you've heard of Sugar Ray Leonard.

Starting point is 02:53:16 I'm talking about Sugar Ray Robinson. He's the greatest pound for pound boxer of all time. Sugaray Robinson. He's the guy who my friend's uncle beat the amateurs. Sugar Ray Robinson was defending his title. He had a dream that he killed the man he was fighting, right? So he wakes up in the morning and he says to the commission, the Boston Commission, he says, I'm not fighting.

Starting point is 02:53:42 I had a dream. I killed him. They go, what are you talking about? It's a dream. They brought a priest in, priest talked to him and he finally said uh okay i'll fight right i'll fight fights the guy catches him with the left hook the guy drops and dies right there on the spot oh wow yep so when you had a dream like that you up man yeah the guy he dreamed it i've had dreams that have

Starting point is 02:54:06 come true i've dreamed outcomes to things where the next day or two days later it happens and i was like that's what i saw my dream so how that works i don't know but it can happen Unbelievable. One of these days, my powerball dream is going to work out. There you go. Yeah. It's going to be true. So you guys have not put out a record since 2018. Yes.

Starting point is 02:54:27 Once Lou heals up, is that, is that in the plans? Then the cards, is that something you guys are already kind of writing? Yeah, that would be in the plans. Pete has like 26 songs or something. Holy shit. Fuck, yeah. All right. Yeah, I don't know how many they'd actually turn into because we'd have to chop them apart.

Starting point is 02:54:44 But I know there's a few good ones in there. there because we rehearsed on those years ago uh you know i have songs uh i actually wrote like a new straight ahead song which could be a single ball song weirdly enough i wrote it i just wrote this song one day i get up in the morning a lot of days most days i get up in the morning as soon as i open my eyes i grab my acoustic bass and i start playing the second i wake up and that's how i write songs and and stuff comes out of me if i like put if i put on a tv in the morning it's like a wasted morning but i pick up the bass so i wrote this song one day of a few months back.

Starting point is 02:55:17 And I was like, wow, that sounds like a straight-ahead song. And that would be, I could be a sick of it all song or whatever. I'm just saying, like, it's stuff just comes out.

Starting point is 02:55:24 You know what I mean? I love it. So there's, there's straight-of-head songs. We never got to hear. There's the down, Don Fury session. Yeah,

Starting point is 02:55:30 broke up the band. We got to hear it. Yeah, and there's a demo with no vocals that we did also. Let's finish it up. So, yeah, there's,

Starting point is 02:55:38 uh, sick of it all would, we'll do an album when we'll lose, when lose recovery. That's right. God bless. let's hope, you know. But the point, we were working on an album and then this happened, you know?

Starting point is 02:55:50 Yeah, of course. Yeah, I like Will do. Yeah. When he heals up. I like that too. I like that too. Could you tell me, off the top of your head, some modern bands in the last 25 years you've seen or toured with that made you think, holy shit, hardcore, still rocked? Yeah, I'm going to say, like, turnstile, even though they're the biggest band in the world.

Starting point is 02:56:14 In the world. Like when I saw them, like when they played with us in Europe and they were just really good. And they were like, they had their own sound, which was kind of refreshing. I like the way they sort of had their own thing going on. It was like kind of bright. It had a lot of energy. And they're such nice guys. You know, they're such respectful guys.

Starting point is 02:56:38 They love hardcore. It seems like that whole generation of guys, they all love everything Mike Dijon ever did, which I can't. Amen. We really do. I can't really argue with any of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Speed's a good band. Speed's a great.

Starting point is 02:56:53 Absolutely. What else? New bands. Like, you know, I love like, in the last 25 years, I'd say, I'd say, wisdom and chains. If you're going to go back 25 years, I love that band. They, they used the chorus. They knew how to use a chorus, which is pretty rare. Like, like, savoring a chorus is, like, very, very hard to do.

Starting point is 02:57:16 do. Most people don't savor choruses, you know? Like to find a band that's like a songwriting band and a chorus band that's so rare. A little bit of melody, you know, a little bit of a hook just to get you. Yeah, absolutely. I toured with Wisdom and Chains without ever hearing Wisdom and Chains. Really? By the end of this three-day tour, I knew every word to every song. Pennsylvania.

Starting point is 02:57:41 I fucking love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great stuff. great answers. You guys got anything else for me? You got any new bands? Yeah, yeah. We got some more. We got a little bit more.

Starting point is 02:57:51 We're almost done. Could you tell me a single show you went to or played at CBs that sticks with you the most? Great question. I don't know about sticks with me the most, but I remember we played the guillotine benefit. It was in 86 and there's actually a recording of it. There's an audio. I think there's a video and there's an audio recording. And we played the songs weird.

Starting point is 02:58:16 We played like we were so busy then. Everything sounds like very unique. Like the songs almost sound like different versions of the songs. But I remember at the end of our set, I'm walking outside with Red, and I had a real case for Red at that point. And there was a riot with the homeless people that were living upstairs.

Starting point is 02:58:33 So they all started throwing bottles. They were raining bottles down on everybody because some kind of fight happened or something. So hundreds of bottles. Everyone's like running. So I left Red. on the sidewalk and ran across the street because I was getting hit with bottles, you know, everyone was going to hit with bottles.

Starting point is 02:58:49 And Red was there. And all the homeless guys came out and they had like sticks and stuff. And Red was right there. I was like, shit, I got to get Red. And I remember one of the war zone women ran across the street, grabbed my base and ran it back across the street before I could even do it. And that just stuck in my head. Like, I think the fight might happen.

Starting point is 02:59:07 I think that maybe, I might be confusing this with a different fight. But I think Russell Underdog had a fight with a guy or a skis. skinhead from Jersey and then Todd youth hit him in the face with the skateboard trucks broke the skinhead's nose and then a riot broke out. I don't remember if that was the same thing or not. But you ever see a guy? Red lives. Red lives because of this wonderful one.

Starting point is 02:59:29 A skateboard held over like this. And a guy's laying on a car hood, he's pinned on a car hood and the skateboard trucks just go like this. And the guys nose just goes, boom. And there's blood everywhere. and the guy's just like out and it made this sound like it was like this deep crack sound that was like oh everyone was like oh everyone made like a big like belly aches sound like everyone was like almost throwing out so that's your most memorable CBD that's just the one that sticks

Starting point is 03:00:01 in top of my head not the most memorable but that one sticks in my head just because it was so wild what happened you know yeah yeah two more quick things what is sick of it all's fast food of choice. That's really hard to say. One in the world where you, no matter where you are, you have every single one at your fingertips, you can go to any of them. Where are you guys so psyched to stop? Armand's going to go to the, uh, to the vet.

Starting point is 03:00:28 You know, back in the day, it was that Australian hamburger joint, the, the, the Lord of the Flies was Lord of the Fries was Lord of the Fries. Lord of the fries. We used to go to Lord of the Fries. We used to go to that back then, you know, I was vegetarian back then. So we'd go to that and fast food. It's hard to say. Like nobody's really that into fast food.

Starting point is 03:00:51 When we're on the West Coast, we go to in and out. Come on. I mean, that's a no-brainer. You know what I mean? It's pretty easy to. And for me personally, maybe not a sick of it all one, but a hardcore one, Del Taco. Oh. Dude, Del Taco is like what Taco Bell is supposed to be.

Starting point is 03:01:08 That's crazy. It's a good tasting, clean, simple like fast food Mexican like Taco Bell is gross but you go to Del Taco you get that green or the red bean burrito the green brino make it bold dude eat like three of those

Starting point is 03:01:23 and you're like you're like who's not happy exactly and then let me ask you Craig as somebody who likes to cook and who's into cooking what's your favorite thing to cook it's hard to say I always love just a simple pasta pommodoro with tomatoes one thing I do is I

Starting point is 03:01:39 You know, when I go, in my garden, I grow a little, little grape cherry tomatoes with them, little cherry tomatoes. When the cherry tomatoes come in, I take a clover garlic, and I put it a little olive oil, and I put the cherry tomatoes just straight into that, right? Yeah. And I put a little pinch of salt in it, and I put a lid on it until they pop. Oh, okay. And they just all burst.

Starting point is 03:02:00 And when they cook, they start to cook down, right, right toward the end, I'll just put in a bunch of fresh basil right at the end and just have that with, with some very al dente pasta and the key to making pasta is you make it al dente but that starchy cooking water the salted cooking water

Starting point is 03:02:16 you save a little bit of that and when you put the pasta with the with the with the burst tomatoes you add a little of that cooking water in it starches it up and sticks it together and you just eat that fresh tomato with the basil and baby tomatoes

Starting point is 03:02:28 they naturally sweet it's like one of my favorite things I love that I'm so hungry couldn't be hungry yeah I'm hungry as hell too it's like three hours let's get out of here

Starting point is 03:02:36 I got one more question for you yeah one. Craig ahead. Landmark hardcore musician, could you tell me and Bo and the world your top four hardcore records of all time? Okay, we're going to say the first two minor threat to seven inches. We'll count that as one. We'll count that as one. That's the way that has to go. The bad branch roar cassette is probably number one. It's one or two. The bad bridge roar cassette crushes it, crushes it, for its hardcore spirit and capturing the,

Starting point is 03:03:15 capturing the new, if you were going to make a time capsule for a thousand years in the future, and you wanted to explain New York hardcore, agnostic front victim and pain goes in that time capsule. So victim and pain is on that, is definitely in that. And for, there's a lot of ways that could go

Starting point is 03:03:35 this but I'm just going to keep it traditional and keep it rudimentary negative approach tied down who great answers where would be we would be without tied down I think too where would be what a what a have ever written your mistake or friend of folk because those were no way man those were you know negative approach songs yeah titles at least right wow unbelievable Craig this is an all-timer I'm happy to be there. I watched you guys and I was like, I was like, this show is great. I was like, you know,

Starting point is 03:04:08 I'd love to be on the show. Hey, man. We thank you so much for your time. True. And your patience and your many hours, but this was fantastic. That's cool. This was great.

Starting point is 03:04:16 Unbelievable. I want to eat with you guys. Oh, let's eat. You guys live far from each other, don't you? We do. But we make it happen. We make it happen. That's right.

Starting point is 03:04:25 Maybe if not, we'll do two separate ones. You know what I mean? There you go. Yeah, no problem. Zoom meal. Zoom did. Well, thank you for having me and thank you for your interest in straight ahead and all that.

Starting point is 03:04:34 And hopefully I'll see you guys at the show. That's a G. Yeah. Straight ahead show. I hope so too. It's, you know, April 25th at the Brooklyn Monarchs. Okay. Great.

Starting point is 03:04:47 I'm very excited. April 25th, straight ahead is back. And if you sell it out fast, maybe in some point in the future, they'll be inspired to do it again. Craig, truly, thank you so much for joining us. All right, fellas, thank you. You'll receive some random text for me once about pictures of food. Food porn. No problem.

Starting point is 03:05:03 Absolutely. I want a picture of a breakaway 12 inch with a sticker on it too. That's like actual porn. You know what I mean? It is. All right. Thank you all for watching. Thank you for having me, guys.

Starting point is 03:05:16 Absolutely. Have a good night. You too. See you all next week. Bye. All right. This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.

HardLore - Craig Ahead: Straight Ahead Reunion, Sick of it All Hiatus, Quitting Youth of Today, Agnostic Front

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