HardLore - Jamie Pushbutton (Hatebreed, Death Threat)

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

HardLore is joined in-person by Jamie Muckinhaupt, AKA Jamie Pushbutton. You may not recognize him, but any fan of hardcore music as we know it today will certainly recognize his drumming. Depending on who you ask, he is as much myth as he is legend… Jamie is the original drummer of Death Threat (performing on “Last Dayz” and “Peace & Security”) and mostly notably was the drummer on Hatebreed’s groundbreaking debut album “Satisfaction is the Death of Desire”, where his performance was the inimitable backbone to an instant classic. After making multiple modern day landmark hardcore albums, you would assume he spent his entire adult life on the road, but that wouldn’t be the case… An abrupt move to Colorado, drugs, and ultimately seven years in prison would end up defining the 2000s for Jamie. …and now he’s on HardLore to tell us all about it. Join the HARDLORE PATREON to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episodes: https://patreon.com/hardlorepod - Join the HARDLORE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/jA9rppggef Cool links: HardLore Official Website/HardLore Records store: https://hardlorepod.com Try AG1 at DrinkAG1.com/HARDLORE to receive a free 1-year supply of vitamin D and 5 travel packs of AG1. Get 15% off MADD VINTAGE with code HARDLORE15! https://maddvintage.com/ Get 20% OFF @manscaped + Free Shipping with promo code HARDLORE at MANSCAPED.com! #ad #manscapedpod FOLLOW JAMIE: INSTAGRAM | https://www.instagram.com/jamiepushbutton FOLLOW HARDLORE: INSTAGRAM | https://www.instagram.com/hardlorepod/ TWITTER | https://twitter.com/hardlorepod SPOTIFY | https://spoti.fi/3J1GIrp APPLE | https://apple.co/3IKBss2 FOLLOW COLIN: INSTAGRAM | https://www.instagram.com/colinyovng/ TWITTER | https://www.twitter.com/ColinYovng FOLLOW BO: INSTAGRAM | https://www.instagram.com/bosxe/ TWITTER | https://www.twitter.com/bosxe 00:00:00 - Start 00:00:55 - Introduction 00:07:35 - Last Breath 00:08:32 - Bloodbath 00:13:21 - In Between Bands 00:15:05 - Joining Hatebreed 00:21:29 - Going Into Satisfaction 00:27:44 - Satisfaction Track Listing 00:38:24 - The Reaction To Satisfaction 00:40:11 - Looking Back At It 00:41:22 - Satisfaction Record release 00:43:20 - Pardon This Interruption 00:47:32 - Touring on Satisfaction 00:51:14 - After Ghosting Hatebreed 00:55:01 - Life in and after Colorado 01:02:53 - Day to Day Life in Prison 01:04:12 - First experiences after prison 01:06:04 - Life After Prison 01:12:33 - Plans for New Music 01:14:17 - Favorite New / Modern Bands 01:14:57 - Four Favorite Hardcore Records Of All Time 01:16:44 - Ghosts 01:18:55 - Touring Internationally? 01:20:14 - Are you a Food Driven Person? 01:22:43 - Being on Television 01:26:36 - Final Thoughts / Recording Peace and Security 01:27:14 - Recording Peace and Security   HardLore: A Knotfest Series, Fueled by Monster Energy Edited by Steven Grise • Title sequence by Nicholas Marzluf Join the HARDLORE PATREON to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episodes. Join the HARDLORE DISCORD for community discussions and to participate in our future Q&A episodes. FOLLOW HARDLORE: INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, SPOTIFY, APPLE FOLLOW COLIN: INSTAGRAM FOLLOW BO: INSTAGRAM, TWITTER   For sponsorship opportunities, email us! [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The one thing that, like, from a drummer's perspective that I don't love about satisfaction, it would probably be a totally different record if I used a China. And I was using the shit out of a China and push button and even bloodbath. But I had sold my China. Or guess what? That was a dagger. That was a dagger to his heart. Jamie, I'm going to tell you something.

Whenever, whenever, not if. Time machine technology is invented. I'm going back and I'm handing you a crisp. 18 inch Zilding China Hello, welcome It's Hardlord time How are you, Bo?

I'm doing so well Me too This is to me A landmark episode of the show Big one for you Big one for me And is me as well But

Big one for all You know I'm from Connecticut So it's a little different Yeah We've got here One of my favorite Drummers of all time

A guy that Inspired me and many Many of my peers More than Just about anybody There's a very short list of hardcore drummers who defined the late 90s, which is now kind of come to define what modern hardcore is.

The man's name is Jamie Muckin-Hobt, aka Jamie Push Button. Welcome, Jamie. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being here with us today. I really had to talk you into this one. You did.

I'm just, yeah. I'm glad I did. Last night was my first time. I've seen Death Threat many times. Same. But I've never gotten to see Death Rette with the man that recorded the songs until yesterday. And, like, I know just posting that video, the amount of, like, iconic hardcore drummers who responded at being just excited to say. There were guys who were like, I just watched this five times.

I can't believe it. I watched it five times. Couldn't believe it. So how does it feel just to play with Death Threat again? Something like last night, FYA, have you played many? shows with death threat back? Just about five or six. You're still breaking in.

You haven't missed the beat. I'm the old, I'm the old new guy. That's right. You're right, though. There was something, I don't know the name of the song on the top of my head, but it's a tick it to do get to get da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-and. And that's the song I've known since I was a teenager. And seeing you play it, there was a moment of like, that's the guy.

He did that. There's something about watching a band and they have a new drummer. who doesn't do the stuff. Yeah. And if you've ever covered a song, you know what I'm talking about. You've got to do the stuff. Got to do the stuff.

Jamie, it was so nice to finally hear the stuff. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Happy to be in a warm Florida instead of Massachusetts. 62 degree Florida versus 61 degree Springfield Mass. Are you in Springfield? Well, that's where I'm from original.

That's right. We live on Cape Cod now. Okay. Oh, the quad. Great chip. Those are good chips Contrary to a lot of people's misconception I am not from Connecticut

Never lived in Connecticut That's right And we'll get into that They just needed you And drummers Needed you The most valuable resource to musicians To a band is the drummer

So Springfield Massachusetts Tell me about growing up there How you found hardcore of all things I got into I mean it seems like Everybody's pathway to hardcore either through, you know, metal, hip hop, one of those, you know. But I kind of got into it through metal, I think.

There was a head shop in Springfield Mass. You know, I saw the Iron Maiden banner and Sabbath banner and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, what is this? And so I got into metal. I had a really close friend in Springfield that kind of introduced me to like punk rock period, like in general, you know. What kind of punk were you into? Uh, sex pistols definitely were huge.

So early stuff. Gen 1, Gen 1. You know, late 70s punk. Yeah. Any misfits? For some reason, I gravitated towards the British stuff. Of course. That's, I mean, there's a, you know, the attitude.

You kind of thing. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I got really into punk. There was a old place in Springfield called the Zone Art Center that had, you know kind of college rock kind of bands sure that's where i first kind of saw people with mohawks people you know you ever have a mohawk i did really did you ever have mock i wasn't brave enough no no you know takes a certain kind of guy how old were you like head shop era like around the time when you were like i'm curious about music uh about 14 or 15 yeah that's that's about yeah so how far

into that do you decide to start playing drums it was a couple years it was the same guy who introduced me to a lot of punk stuff also played guitar or was learning guitar he tricked you we got a band coming along he fucking tricked you he needed you and you know just by default i was kind of you know well i got to pick up something and we have a guitarist and so we you know we just we would play old sex pistol songs little clash songs cool just stuff it wasn't really until i met um i met this guy at that at this place in springfield the the zone art center, which is definitely not a hardcore metal kind of venue. Sure.

But he was Bruce's roommate. Bruce Lepage's roommate. Bruce Lepage, Hired Demons. So you guys go that far back? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You two go the furthest back, would you say, of anybody in that your current circle? Yeah, definitely. Well, certainly for me because I'm a little younger than Bruce.

Right. So, you know, but anyway, he was living with Bruce at the time. This guy, Andy. Right. who owns a record store in Massachusetts now. Awesome. And Andy introduced me to a lot of music, but he introduced Bruce and I.

And then, you know, I used to go over there. I mean, I saw Bruce was fresh out of the Army, shaved head, psychopath. And I'm, you know. You're tall, slenderman, you know. Troublemaker. Yeah. Looking for trouble.

Looking for new music, all that kind of stuff. And, yeah. And I mean, the world just opened up as far as music. Like, this guy Andy was all about, you know, punk. Like, Poison Idea kind of, kind of vain. He was into Gryancor, GGL and all the stuff that was really kind of off the wall then. Cool. And then Bruce was just kind of still, I think, pretty fresh to knowing, like, what was what with hardcore.

And this is like during the kind of like in effect era of New York stuff, like so like sick of it all. Yeah. Raw deal at the time. and good stuff and he started taking me to shows Brewston

yeah beautiful well Bruce and Andy both both of them and is that still in in Western Mass or were you more in like were you did you relocated

or were you still in we were still in Western Mass yeah yeah yeah I had never really left Western Mass during my childhood

or anything like that so how far into knowing each other because what Blood Bath was not first right correct were you in

band called Last Breath? I was. So, Last Breath, Jamie Joste did it again. He took the rich from Bolterer, or he took the name from you. I don't think he even, probably this day doesn't even know about Last Breath. Really? I mean, it was, it wasn't really hardcore. It was more like, I would say, like a D.C. sound.

What a great, great name. Yeah. So you did it first. What do they call that? What are the comedians called that? Where you tell the same joke, parallel thinking, some parallel thinking going along with that. So Last Breath is that your first band?

ever um yeah it was wow it was how short lived was that is can that is that something i can look up in here no there's there's one song on an old um western mass comp called back again cool cool that um it's not very good here it is he'll find it sorry steven i will find it jamie uh so blood bath comes along blood bath will eventually be known as push button warfare once bruce leaves and then would come back but tell me about blood bath This is this first, like, serious band? Definitely, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, like, having actual songs and, you know, thinking about recording. Like, in that sense, it was definitely, like, the first real band. And are they, like, Western Mass bands? Bloodbath and Push Button? Because I have a Push Button shirt that says Western Mass, hardcore. Yep. So in your mind? All members of both of those bands, all Western Mass.

Gotcha. Yep. Interesting. So how does the Connecticut connection come just out of shared, sheer, sheer, geographical proximity yes it really comes from from like just going to shows yeah um around this time we met Aaron and and quite a few other like Connecticut Connecticut guys you know for the first time absolutely long before we were in any bands together but just you know those guys used to come to Western master shows vice versa we'd go we'd go there and were there any

was there any kind of like oh those those Connecticut guys are cool well I'm sure you guys know, like back then, I mean, any kind of music like that was so few and far between. There wasn't a lot of territory beefs. It was, you know, more like, you know, size someone out. But then you're like, you're all right. Yeah, yeah, right. So there wasn't like fuck these Connecticut guys. It was like, this is brotherhood, for example, I'm intended.

It would be, back then it would be more like, you know, fuck these metal dudes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck these hippie people or whoever it was, you know. What time frame are we talking here? What year? Like, Bloodbath was around. I think when we first started talking about it was like $89.90. So it was a long time ago.

You were early. Wow. So push button evolves out of bloodbath. And I'm sure, I know Bruce has discussed this before, or kind of discussed the history of it. But this guy, Andy, is really the one to put bloodbath together. And like put all the people in the same room. So what's Andy's last name?

Crespo. Andy Crespo. And he runs a record store? Yep. In Florence, Mass. It's near North Hampton, if you've ever heard of North Hampton. Mystery Train Records. Mystery Train Records in Florence, Mass?

No, I'm getting it wrong. Mystery Train Records in Massachusetts. Check it out. And thank him for bringing people together. For all of this. Yeah, but he was, Bruce's roommate. Andy was Bruce's roommate. Okay.

And like, you should start a band. I know Bruce talked about all this too. Totally. You should be a front man, you know, because he's Bruce. Sure. A real person. It was kind of just learning the drums. And we knew Paul, who went on, you know, went on to be in a million other band, Shadows Fall and everything.

But he was in a local metal band called Threshold, I think, prior to Bloodbast. So we kind of knew him peripherally. And there was this guy, Carl, who was in another Western mass band, wishful thinking. So anyway, kind of put us all together. Now, in 89, are drummers as precious of a resource as they are today? I would say so. like reliable once I mean it just

It just tracks Because who wants to lug it around Who wants to buy it Who wants to yeah I think I've kind of come to terms with it That it was kind of like a Growing up It's about it was about space

Like literal square footage to play drums Sure And like pure happenstance of if you had a place to play You can learn if not you're playing guitar Yeah And that was my ace in the hole For getting in bands was like my mom would put up With a plane in the basement

Mom had the basement. Exactly. My mom let us play in the garage. See? You know, that's so important. Springfield? You know how many incredible things were born out of these damn basements?

You wouldn't believe it. You wouldn't believe it if I told you. So does push button and bloodbath tour at all? No. But push button, I guess you could call it a tour. I mean, a couple weekends. Okay. But blood death never.

Interesting. We played hard for once. It was kind of big deal. You remember where? West Hartford Ballroom, I think it was. That was the first time actually that we really hung out with Aaron and Brad. In West Hartford? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Because we had seen them, but we were like it. That's primarily where I grew up. Is West Harvard? Born in Bristol because of ESPN. Thank you, ESPN. And then primarily in West Hartford.

So that's very cool. But just to give you an idea of the era like Bloodbath would play with like big mistake. I'm sure you've heard of them. Totally. You know, just that era. You guys were extreme. Yeah. Amongst everything else going on.

And even though by today's standards, we weren't, you know, too heavy sounding. I mean, we had like more of a hardcore sound, I think, than like the punk sound that was around. Yeah. Totally. So what happens between bloodbath, push button, and hidden the road and the studio hard with death threat and hate breed? What do we mean? What do I not know? we don't we've only had gotten to speak so many times what i want i want to crack inside the mind of

of jamy push button here okay um tell me about you what were you like uh causing ruckuses ruck eye yeah i mean without going down a super rabbit hole for sure i mean i was i'm an only child i kind of grew up without i grew up without my dad okay so i was just you know tormenting my mom And looking for any trouble I could get into it. Yeah, sure. And, you know, without pointing the finger at him, I mean, Bruce was like the perfect lightning rod for that. You know what I mean?

Like, he was looking for trouble. You know, especially once we get into playing music going to shows, you know, crazy dancing, all that kind of stuff. You know, you realize there's an outlet for that. Absolutely. The kind of anger and stuff. But as far as what happened in between, you know, bloodbath and push button then on to like you know I guess bands that I'm better known for being in

sure but one of them is your non-government last name so I figured you know we got to let people yeah yeah again I think Bruce kind of discussed the transition blood bath to push button and there was a couple different ears of push button as you I'm sure you know he comes back and and he's in push button again yeah yeah it's a lot but by the time push button was over I mean everyone else is going on to other things, so to speak. We push button played with kind of towards the end of our existence. We played with Hayprey a few times. And of course we knew Jamie.

So who's playing drums and Hayprey at this time? I think Dave Russo was playing right before me. And are you saying you got to get this guy out here? I got it. You got to put me in. Or is Jostop going to Jamie? Jamie. He's talking to Bruce being like,

what's your drummer's name? Is he yami or yami? Yami? Oh, it's my name. My name. So is he poaching you or are you like, hey man, I'm available? No, they, they approached me. Okay.

And we knew each other. So Dave is on under the knife. Yep. Okay. Dave, Dave is on under the knife. All right. They might have had someone in between. You know, I mean, April went through a lot of doors.

I've heard, I've heard of the guys they tried out after you. And what disaster it was. When would that have been? pre-perseverance right like right before recording perseverance Sean has told me

many tales of drummers who couldn't do get to get to get to get couldn't do the 16th were like these insane metal guys who would only go snare first

and Sean not a drummer would be on the kit showing them do get it to get do get it got to get wow pretty cool so you were tough to replace

you ever mess around with like a metal guitar player who can't strum. Yeah. It's that. They're masturbators. It's that. Yeah. They're masturbators.

Anyway. Now that I think about it, I think actually, um, uh, Nick, nickel P. If you know that name. Yes. He was the drummer directly before me. Okay. But I, I, he wanted another direction. Yeah.

What else was he in? I don't, I don't know what else he was in. Okay. Probably another local Connecticut band before that, but. Nickel P. So, you, they approached you, you, you joined. Heybreed? Is Haybreed first or is death threat first?

Heybred. Okay. Okay. This is fascinating. So I just got done a few months ago with him, over a month with Haypreed. And I'm on a real Haypreed kick. Sure. Probably for the next 30, 40 years.

And I would love, like, when they approach you are, obviously there are songs that had already been recorded and written or whatever that wound up on satisfaction. But are you writing together? Yes. Okay. I didn't have any part of writing any of the stuff on Under the Knife. Sure. Right, yeah.

That was like already, that was their set pretty much that and like the few random comp songs. You know, I conceived and severed and stuff. Yeah. Was empty promises like, that was you? Like kicker kicks and there. So we wrote most, a lot of the like kind of broad strokes ideas for satisfaction. we wrote on a tour that Hapry did with Despair, like a summer tour. Wow.

Like at random places, you know, we'd crash at people's houses and set up our gear. And, you know, Jamie had a lot of the, probably most of the preliminary ideas for those songs. So you guys would pre-show, just be writing satisfaction every night? Yeah, and then when we got back from that tour, we, like, actually spent some time in the studio. What was that idea? So you, so they approach you. is it instantaneous yes or is it because bruce has told me sorry bruce you told him i can't be in push button and haprey and eventually you were in habrid and death threat and bruce is like that broke my heart

but i get it i mean let's say that he did yeah so how how what's that process like how mad is brucey at the time and what was the process like of just okay i'm in hipbred now Well, push button was kind of winding down. Sure. Like we were all going different directions, start in other bands. Right. Or I guess wanting to start other bands.

And, you know, I hate to bring this up, but you have to understand that, like, this is all against, at least in Bruce and I's case, not the other push button guys or hate breed guys, or really anybody at that point. It's against the backdrop of getting really heavy into drugs. So not taking bands super serious. Like, it's something we love and love doing,

and it's all our friends and our, like, it's what we've been doing. Sure. But not thinking about it like a business or what's the right move or at least I wasn't. I'm playing music and I'm going to have some drugs. That's the perfect life. That's how I'm set. So maybe some of the decisions weren't as like linear as.

I got you. Sure. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, that makes total sense. So Hey, breathe, you're, you, you get approached. Jamie approaches you. Jamie approaches you. So actually, now that we're talking again, kind of come back to me.

So I went to, I don't think it was with Bruce, but I went to a rave at this place, Pearl Street in North Hampton, to sell drugs. You ever been there? Pearl Street. They still got drug? With the original singer for Push Button, Justin. Okay. And Aaron and Boulder were there. And we were playing them the self-titled push button CD before it had, like this was before it had come out.

And that was kind of my first time really like meeting Boulder and stuff. Right. Intense guy from what I hear. Yeah. Never got to meet him. Definitely. Maybe kind of Reesh energy. Oh.

That's an incredible. 100%. Interesting. Reach drummer for 100 demons. Intense guy. But in the case of both joint and hate breed and death threat or kind of forming death threat. Right. Boulder was pretty instrumental.

Wow. He really asked me. He was like, this is what we're doing. doing okay yes sir that sounds great okay all right that makes a lot more sense i think that that that that rave that hanging out like he checked out some push button stuff and i think the next time that they were kind of like looking for a drummer or looking to firm up you know the hate breed lineup sure that uh that's kind of why i got the nod so you got both calls the death threat call and the hate period call because of because of that yeah this is and just from you're talking drugs this is drug this is

to me. And just from knowing each other like totally from going to shows and being around the way. Being in the next state. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So your first task is a couple tours with Heybreed? Yeah. Well, really one big one. Okay. And then a whole bunch of weekends and then satisfaction. And then satisfaction.

Yep. And what was the, what was the attitude? This is crazy. It's insane. So you're going into satisfaction. That is with Steve Evans. Yep.

That's right. Friend of the show, Steve Evans. what's your mindset going into that what's what is your thought what are your thoughts on just the songs in general do you like finish this record hear it and think this is really good yeah or are you like okay i'm gonna ready record my songs and then i'm to sell some drugs um well probably more use some drugs use

are you doing both are you recording drums and using drugs same day definitely that's fucking awesome. The one thing that, like, from a drummer's perspective that I don't love about satisfaction, it would probably be a totally different record if I used to China, but I had sold my China. Or guess what? That was a dagger.

That was a dagger to his heart. I'm going to tell you something. Whenever, whenever, not if. Time, machine technology is invented. I'm going back, and I'm handing you a crisp 18 inch

Zildjan China as the ghost of... You think it would have been kind of a different record? The ghost of Christmas China. I've seen you use a China. I've seen a tib-da-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-you know,

I know that one. I love that one. I've taken that one. So I now need to hear Satisfaction Jamie's China version. But musically, that's my only regret about... That's a fair regret because I would have never picked

that out. And I was using the shit out of a China and push button and even bloodbath. Wow. Interesting. But I'll tell you what. I don't know that if I've ever noticed that there's no China. I almost would have sworn there was. But to answer your question, as far as recording that, as far as like, you know, selling off parts

of the drum kit before recording, you know, what was definitely my biggest... So is Jostah going, where's the China? No. He doesn't notice. No, he didn't. Which that shocks me because he's a detail oriented guy. Right. Right. Or does he know?

He's like, I'm not going to ask. I mean, he has a big hand in, you know, everything. Yeah. And always has. So I'm sure that was kind of a minor detail compared to. Everything else going on. Yeah. The rollout of satisfaction.

Let's just walk through the track. Well, so I'm going to bring it back with empty problems. Please. What I was asking before is the idea to do second-d-a-da-d-d-da-d-d-da. That as a film, foot only. Yeah, foot only. Yeah. I don't know that I've heard a guy do that.

before you. But here's what's so cool and the reason I bring it up is watching you play and watching how you did certain fills yesterday was the same kind of I don't know drum language very much but the same kind of style as that

filled the nuance of that intro I mean a band covered that today earlier today a band played that sorry I forget who nothing but enemies from Scotland oh wow that's lovely So it's it's I'm fascinated I love knowing these little details

Was that being an intro fill to start this record? Was that your what if I did this? Or is it just hey could we let's I need something there Well kind of the dynamic that Jamie and I had with Because you know hate breed practices that's a whole thing in the 90s first of all I would drive from Springfield to wherever we were practicing which is always kind of a How many days a week? Well the point I was getting to is

Like, this is before, you know, phones and GPS and everything. Like, I would drive there and they'd just not be there. Oh. If I could drive home and then, you know, I have a message on my landline and, you know, that kind of stuff. Sure. So practices were pretty fragmented. Sure. And sometimes it would be three of us.

Sometimes it would be, you know, I remember distinctly hammering through some of the songs that would end up being on satisfaction. We're just Jamie and I trying to work out, like, basic structure. Yeah. You'd just be strumming some real basic stuff. So to answer your question, Bo, Bo. It was usually more of an idea, like, you know, just do a fill here. Okay. So that's your brain saying, what's the Michael Jackson thing?

Oh, the, uh, yeah, Quincy telling the dude on, uh, off the wall, hey, I need you to do an iconic drum fill that will people will remember forever. You have one take. And they're just, okay, dude, but a, kaka, kaka, kak, kak, kak, kak, Kempth. Empty promises is your, is your rock with you. That's just really me trying to like match what the guitar's doing. Okay. Yeah, of course.

It makes sense with the riff, but I wouldn't think, yeah, I wouldn't think to do that. It's just an interest. I love knowing little shit like that. Wild, man. Well, that's, I guess, the double-edged sword of being self-taught is like you don't think in a certain paradigm. Like, so true. Yesterday, I'm helping you set up your symbols. And I forget.

My first drum tech ever. It's right. By the way. And I forget, I've known you don't use a ride, but I forget that. And I pick up the biggest crash in there and say, ride. and you said, I don't use a ride. His ride is a 16-inch medium crash. Which is like, that's one of the, I play like a freak.

My high head is on the floor. But it's all, and that's because I'd only ever seen my, my brother play. I never been taught by anybody. And it's a, it's a New England thing, I think. Do you ride that small crash, though? The big crash I ride. Oh, I'm sorry, big crash. You use it as a ride.

Right, but it's true. You ever use a ride? Definitely. Like on push button stuff? Yeah, definitely. You just don't like it for death threat. No, I'll get you a ride. You did. It's all over that, though.

We need to take... We need to take Lars's China away from him as his ride. Give you that China. Back in time. We got a whole plan. I'm going to get you... We're going to go in the future. You're going to love it.

I'm going to go back. You're not going to believe it. You're going to look at me now and you're like, you're the guy that gave me the crash on satisfaction. That's unbelievable. All right, let's go down the track list. Yeah, please. This is fun.

Burn the Lodge, track, too. Any distinct memories of writing that song? Well, that would be a situation. I think the little fill at the beginning. Oh, that was specifically like, Jamie, you know, do this exactly. Do you rock with you. Whereas a lot of other stuff was like, just, you don't kind of fill this space. Uh-huh.

Cool. Very cool. This is unbelievable. It's good. I like this going on. A lot of the, I mean, definitely like the hate breed stuff

that they already had when I joined. Yeah. Versus the satisfaction stuff. Sure. I mean, you've probably listened to it enough to know.

But like a lot of the satisfaction stuff was kind of a different style for me, like the, especially the breakdowns. Yeah. Yeah. It's a different style in general. Right.

Yeah. Like it's not, and it defined, that started and defined modern hardcore to new subgenre of, but compared to like, like my style that came out, I guess, in push button. Sure.

It was much different. You were reinventing yourself on record as a drummer. I guess you could say that. Yeah. Which is wild. Burnalizes next. Before to sign. Which is the sample still gone?

Off. Samples off. Sample's gone. We'll never hear it again. I've got it. But that's different. And I think the challenge with all the songs that already existed before I joined was making them. Making them yours.

Yeah, I mean, kind of similar to what's happening with death threat because I'm playing like songs that were written after I was gone and songs from the beginning. Try to make him sound somewhat cohesive, especially live. Interesting. While still honoring, obviously, what had already been done. Puritan is one of the most covered hardcore songs that probably... We're just going to skip before dishonor? Oh, okay.

In the most blatant absence of a china. Think of that. Crash. Oh, wow. And Matt, Matt used that. of China. I'll tell you what. Oh, yeah, he does. Is your crash a little broken on satisfaction?

Maybe. So that's why I've never thought that can't be a China. I've thought it was maybe a broken china. I wish I could tell you I had a sonic master plan for like anything that I've played on. You went into play some drums and then get a little high. With whatever I had available or had them sold or. Tell me about the snare. Is it the same snare on satisfaction and peace and security?

Yes. Wow. Now that is amazing. It's good shit. Superphonic. The superphonic. And you don't use it live because it doesn't crack enough? Correct.

You're a pork pie man live. I am. And that motherfucker cracked last night. I'll tell you what. Anyway. Conceived through an act of violence. What can you tell me about putting this song together? Well, that was already written one in a joint.

Okay. But one of my favorite songs to play. 100% for sure. Did the dun, dun, yeah. And I think I kind of, it depends on which older recording you listen to, I guess. But like the, before the second breakdown, the double bass and stuff, like I kind of, I think I kind of added that or changed a little from how it was like on the integrity split. Sure. Afflicted past.

On this one. I don't know off the top of my head. Change your afflicted past. Oh, of course. Pretty much all fast and then there's a breakdown at the end. Prepare for war. What do you got for me? That was an old.

That's an old. Not on truth. The first tapered song, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's my personal favorite, which I know obviously was written before. Him telling us that he got the entire bridge line

from just the title of a painting was insane. Oh, yeah. The whole thing. Not what you would expect. He was like, I saw this painting and took the whole thing. Pretty cool. Betrayed by life, this is maybe,

this has got to be a top three muck and hump performance. Because we got the catch. I don't love that song. Come on, man. What do you mean? Really? Chad and Kentitin, you're telling me you don't love that? What do you mean?

Just the, I mean, there's just not much complexity to it. What do you do? Interesting. That's one of the most complex. That's one, a drummer, a young drummer hears that and goes, well, I got to learn that. I got to start there. I guess I just, I just meant like strong songs, song structure-wise. But it's a drum track, which is awesome.

When you do the symbol catch, I remember it like breaking my brain. Because it's just a cool accent. It's a cool place to put it. Was that you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is awesome.

Yeah, it was. I'm having a great time. I know it's, I know it's, I guess, kind of common knowledge around the scene nowadays that, you know, Jamie's like pretty much pretty very hands-on with everything to do with he breed. But back then, I mean, it was, he definitely was very involved in everything. it was kind of his baby from the beginning. But he gave me a pretty good amount of kind of latitude. As the drummer, there's only so much you can coach. To a certain extent, it's like, why?

You asked me to play drums. I got to play my drums, you know? It makes sense. Mark my words, my God. Tell me. Again, one I'm not as connected to, I guess, because it was already a hate breed song. Okay, so the majority, how many of these were, were, can you, like, last breath, that didn't exist until satisfaction.

Right, right. Like last breath portrayed by life. Barrow for the living was on the split. So you didn't, but you didn't, satisfaction is your first hate period recording. Yep. And then your only hate period recording? Yep. God damn.

I was in a band for about two years, but that was the only thing. It was just a timing thing. Oh, okay, okay. Barrow for the living, we're just talking about, worlds apart. Rolls apart driven by suffering as 13 and 14. Pretty unbelievable. Final rock block. That was, yeah, that was kind of different.

I mean, that was a different style for hate breed at the time, too. Big time. Driven by suffering, they still play. And that, when the breakdown hits live, it's better than reported, in my opinion, because it's, they play the fast part so fast. And the breakdown is like, but the thing that the, the,

and maybe this is like because it's not a modern hardcore drummer perspective on it. The do-d-do-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d. That's like hip-hop shit. Yeah, yeah. Is that where you're pulling from? I think so. I mean, I like the thing that I love playing about drums and, I mean, back then and now is just, I mean, getting people to hit each other, getting people and nod their head. Like, that's what it's about. And you've got to have, like, a pocket to do that. You know what I mean? Who were your guys, drum-wise, that inspired you?

Just in general or hardcore? Mostly hardcore? Because that's like, I'm just interested in the genealogy of what you're doing. Because you're a guy who changed a lot with what you did. Totally. So it's kind of... With one record, redefined this whole thing that we're doing. So before anybody's going,

Dad and Giddh-da-da-da-da-da-da. How do we get there? Well, as far as people that I looked up to, I don't know that I really, you can really hear a connection and I guess what my style became. But Mackey, number one, first and foremost, like, you know. The tallest drum throne. Tallest guy, he's standing up. Tallest thrown. Highest thrown ever.

But the amount of sauce that he had on things and the pocket. A sauceman for sure. And especially with faster parts. Yeah. They really, you know, super key. A lot of 16. Once you stop them 16s, it's like, man, we... Very important.

He could have done that there. Alan Cage was, like, huge for me when I get into hardcore. Quick Sand Beyond, you know, just taking fast stuff, but making it something totally different. I've been re-going through a lot of older bands that I hadn't checked out in a minute, and I recently got back into Beyond. And I, the musicianship ambiance, everything is a lot of melody. A lot of melody. A lot more melody than I expected from you.

Yeah. You a melody man? What's weird is like, especially during, during like push button and, uh, and joining in Heybreed was I was super into metal. I mean, pole thrower listening to stuff like that. You can hear that all of satisfaction. So did that? Yeah.

Did you have a connection with Jamie with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean when we, especially when we went on that first tour. tour with the spare. I was relatively new to the band. And it was kind of like, you know, what are you into? Pass the controller around to what, you know, who's going to listen to what? So we were listening to you have a binder full of tapes and CDs or something?

Tapes at the time, yeah. So everybody brought their tapes from home. Wow. I've never even thought about that. Isn't that funny? Wow. So you're like, I got Warmaster, put it in. And Jamie's like, I got Warmaster. Don't worry. It's up here. I'm already in. It's already in. That is really interesting. It's really cool. But I was, yeah, I was big into Lombardo, obviously. Yeah, he's the guy. He's the king.

And I think, I think, like, as far as playing fast parts, which every band I've been and has a ton of faster stuff, Lombardo would be, like, huge for me. He's the gold standard. His right hand with the ride. Yeah. It's like what we all, big ride guy.

I'm telling you, you got to get one. You're going to love it. I'm going to get your ride. Big ride guy, but also the way he plays a fast guy. bass beat has what I'm trying to say it's drummer stuff he he he plays it more punk than just a metal guy he's a hundred percent misfits minded yeah in the way that he's just going yeah yeah exactly which is great when I was when I was like learning the drums I would say Mackey all the way through yeah you're a big Bonate guy right Charlie

Bonante yeah yeah so D Bonaugette just yeah I think because they were even so much faster than like anthrax? Yeah, I wasn't so much in anthrax. Gotcha. Yeah. Now, I mean, now I appreciate him, but at the time. You know, there's a rumor that he played on Master Puppets. Lars didn't. It's a rumor. It's a crazy rumor. I don't believe it. You could probably get that cleared up for it.

I'll talk to my sources. Talk to sources. Charlie, let us know if you're watching. Would you? So, so you, you record it. It's out. Tell me about just like the initial reaction, right? Yeah. Yeah, good. Like the reaction hearing it mastered for the first time?

Yeah. The band hearing it collectively. I remember playing it for Bruce before it came out. Like we had, you know, kind of a scratch copy from the studio. That's a cool. I don't think I really. I mean, I thought it was good. But it's your band.

So you're like, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Your perspective might be a little off with your own band. But he's like, Jesus Christ. You know, at the time. I think it's still his favorite. It's Sean Martin's favorite. Is it?

Yeah. And he played on most of the other ones. So good job. So your thoughts are, this is pretty good. Oh, people seem to like it. Tell me about the day it comes out. You have to understand, like, there were definitely some songs on satisfaction that I think were broadening the sound of hatred from what it had been. Yeah.

So there was definitely an element of like, I don't know. Well, you've probably heard Jamie talk about how Boulder was like, I don't know about this. part or I don't you know totally and that never stopped you know yeah like that that I'm sure that that is that conversation is still happening in hate breed today so I will be heard was the same thing where he was like trust me and then you know yeah so I think there was a little like element are we doing are we getting too weird wow you know that's fast and you wouldn't and within like out of context of being in hate breed you would never look at that now yeah yeah you'd be like, no, that's the DNA of what we're listening to.

Wow, how interesting. How was... But, you know, it's a context thing. 100% what was going on at the time. How do you look back at it? Fondly? Yeah, definitely. Other than the China.

Other than the China. It was really fast. I mean, it was, the writing of songs was really fast. Recording it was really fast. How long? Do you remember? I think it was like nine days of recording. Like total.

Yeah. Nine days to just... That's great. I mean, my part was, as I mentioned, I was into all kinds of other bullshit at the time. But, you know, I just went there for the drums. That was it. Sure.

I wasn't sitting in the studio. Well, everything else was going on. Oh, you weren't there for the rest of it? No. Okay. You clocked in, you clocked out. That was around the time that my son was born. Okay.

So I wasn't, you know, I couldn't hang out in New Jersey for a week. Right. Yeah, you're busy. What was working with Steve like at that time? It was great. That was by far the, like, most legit studio. experience I had had at that time because every other band I had been in that had recorded up to then was you know like Zeus recorded us on an a track which

is cutting-edge technology but you know just I mean being able to hear yourself insane you're all the imperfections still can't believe it yeah wow what was the record release like madness so as far as what you were asking about how it was received yeah you know obviously back then stuff didn't circulate as quickly Sure. So when we would play anywhere outside of Connecticut, you know, it took a while for people to, I guess, get to know the songs. Sure.

But in Connecticut, you know, that stuff had been leaked to friends and, you know, give it to the Grypos. So, you know, people knew the words and stuff like that. You got to go to the Gripos. So, yeah, it was really well received in Connecticut, obviously. Obviously. Yeah, 100%. Can you tell us about the record release?

Yeah, I mean, it's a push button. It's legendary. I did a double duty. So you did it? Yeah. Was that like... That was like one of... Maybe the second to last push button show?

Were you... Was that planned? Like, okay, we're winding down. Because I'm... No, it wasn't planned, but it was kind of going on. I mean, it was headed that way. Gotcha. And, you know, hate breed was kind of picking up momentum as that was winding down.

Big time. So it just made sense. Again, not intentional, but... Yeah, yeah. Just how it worked out. Writing's on the wall. Yeah. But, yeah, that was a double duty show.

I can't really tell you much about. I mean, it ended in a giant riot. Yeah, that's all we've heard. A lot of shows did. Everybody says, can't tell you much about it. Trust me. But, yeah, it ended up a big riot. I mean, you know how stuff goes.

Of course. You don't necessarily know what started it and then what was a retaliation to what. Sure. And stuff like that. It was during the hatred set that it started? Yes. Remember what song? I don't.

Probably said. And there had been similar blowups leading up to that at shows. I mean, we were kind of. Wage more on any venue that tried to control how you dance. Which that was what he told us the whole ethos of apri was that. Him and the boys couldn't mosh for Fugazi. Yeah. So they started apri.

That's the coolest thing ever. Pardon this interruption, please. But trust me, it's so important because your life is falling apart. Your body is falling apart. And AG1 is the only thing that can help you at this point. Do you just come up with that like off the top of your head? Yeah. If I stop now, it's going to leave forever.

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More like Manscaped, Frank. Straight up. This episode is also brought to you by Mad Bintage. You guys, listen, this is fucking serious. Colin and I don't have room. You have to go to Mad Vintage and start buying your shit. We're going to work with him as long as he wants to. And God willing, we've got one closet each.

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You're going to see something you've been looking for your entire life on there. And you're going to want 15% off, trust me, because it's probably expensive. So you use code hardlore 15 right now. I'll wait. Back to the episode. So you... You hit the road pretty hard on satisfaction? You personally?

No, I never really toured on satisfaction. We played just before it, like, physically came out, and shortly after it physically came out. We did a bunch of shows, you know, I guess you'd say locally, but just northeast. Right. But I never went on a tour for satisfaction, so to speak. And why is that?

Well, because I quit. You quit. Not formally, I did. I just, like, ditched them. Really? Wow, really? Can you walk us through that? I think it was when they'd be tuned.

I would imagine you'd be fired up about that. Was that just too much? Well, I was strung out. Yeah. I couldn't even think about, you know. I mean, you can't go far from, too far from where you can get drugs, basically. And so I just kind of like quit answering the phone.

Just straight up. Yeah. Wow. And I'm pretty sure Boulder wanted to get. kill me that tracks a reach like person because they finally found like I mean you know all the bullshit I was doing at the time aside I was you know I'd make it to practice I'd make it to shows sure no maybe I wouldn't have my China or I would sold something but you got that snare yeah that's impressive you still got that yeah I do

so yeah excellent work you're gonna have a ride into China very soon courtesy of me so you leave I didn't I didn't get to I guess you'd say like really enjoy the sport of your of your work sure yeah wow we but we played I mean played some great shows yeah immediately after it came out or you know as it was coming out you know I would love to see that we can make that happen there's a saw a couple songs you know is that too much to ask Jamie Matt Matt Matt Matt I know you would love to see it too Sean I've only met Matt once really very nice guy great guy very nice I've heard that yeah so Sean

Does Sean join the band while you were still in it? No, after. I knew Sean from, Sean was in 100 demons. Right. Higher force. Higher force. Right. So 100 demons had already been existing.

I don't know the timelines all that well. I didn't realize 100 demons had already been existing. Yeah. 100 demons joined or formed shortly. Higher force kind of evolved into 100. And that was right around the time that death wreck got. or like formally got together just just it's it's the the ever it's giving meme of hold the father son holy spirit it's unbelievable man hey he's very like that's incestuous yeah and i you know growing up

like i i i hear about this firsthand the group owes i'm sure you've heard the story at some point but like they they inadvertently got taylor nine hardcore but i just leaving because they went to high school with our older brother yeah just left tapes and and cdies around uh so So the first things we hear are Western Mass stuff, Grimlock, and the Holy Trinity, a hundred demons death threat, hate breed. And like, I don't know any other bands. And turns out I barely need to, which is nice. But just Connecticut is this weird...

Yeah, you would never figure it. Special place where just, like, the most violent music. And in Springfield Mass, too, I'm not leaving you out. I know you never lived there. but you're part of it, you know? Yeah. You're part of the genealogy of the greater Connecticut. And Springfield's, like...

It's right there. It's, yeah. I mean, it might as well be Connecticut as far as proximity. Exactly. So you ghost Haypre. You're like, I got shit to do. I'm busy. Death threats right down the road, though.

So while I was still in Heybreed. Right. Because I quit both bands, basically. I ghosted both bands basically at the same time. But death threats said, well, no, no. In my life. Right.

Yeah. But after I had joined Heybred, Aaron had had the idea for death threat since we first met him, or probably even before, like in 89, you know, his brother was drawn artwork for death threat before it was even banned. But Boulder, once again, kind of approached me about being a death threat, or forming death threat, like kind of, you know, more formally. So you're OG death threat?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. OG lineup is Aaron, Boulder, Jamie. CJ. C.J. Wow. Yeah, Larry Dwyer.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, we wrote the demo with really no plans to, you know, do anything else. We played on that for a while. Then we wrote last days, eventually peace and security. And that was kind of going on concurrently with me being a hay breed. Right. Which I don't think Jamie liked as death threat picked up traction. I could see it.

It became like more of a, less of a project, and more of a real. Local phenomenon. Yeah. So you quit both bands, but you don't quit death threat for too long, apparently. No, I quit death threat for, because when I quit both these bands... Last days was already recorded? Yep, and peace and security. What?

When was that recorded? 98. So it didn't come out for two years? Like a year and a half, it didn't come out. 2000. Wow. That's fucking crazy. I wasn't even...

I wasn't, so once I quit these bands, I moved to Colorado. Okay. That's kind of the next chapter in the story. But I didn't play any release shows for Peace and Security. Like I recorded it, and I think we played a couple shows, like, as it was coming out or, you know, going to come out. Right. And you've got this whole other life with drugs at the same time. I've got a lot of lives.

A lot of lives with a lot of drugs at the same time. I mean, I have a life of just having had a child. Right. And, you know, I have a life of being a drug addict and a musician and, you know, Carpenter. Hell, carpenter. So, yeah, I obviously didn't do the best job juggling any of them at the time. But, yeah, so I wasn't around for anything to do with peace and security. And honestly, that's a lot of the reason when I finally did move, when I got out of prison, finally moved back,

that Aaron kind of put together the reunion shows with the original lineup because he's like I want you to be able to see what all this stuff that you were involved in meant to people

and how did that feel? That was unbelievable. It felt incredible, yeah. It was really cool that the, particularly like the rock block the last three or four songs was like,

I've probably seen death threat I don't know, a couple dozen times. Yeah, a lot of times I've never seen it like that. Yeah. Not like, that at the end that was amazing felt awesome it may be very well I mean those guys I know that

I played on the records but those are the guys yeah yeah the journeyman yeah I mean they're the ones who put in the work to have a reaction like that oh course I can't I can't claim that of course but like I'm sure they and in a way are as as maybe more excited than than we are to have the guy that brought the songs with them yeah it's great to be I mean like I said I've known Aaron forever almost as long as Bruce. Can you tell me about, so peace and security is recorded 98, you moved to Colorado. At one point do you go to prison? So move to Colorado might be a nice way to put it.

I see. I see. More of an escaped to Colorado. I see. Because I, you know, without going into a ton of dirt, I mean, I had burned every bridge that I had. I was starting to burn bridges, you know, in the scene by bailing on tours, bailing on shows, just being unreliable.

Sure. And the girl I was dating at the time was like, you know, I'm done with this. I'm going to live with my parents in Colorado, and I didn't really have any options. So that's how I ended up in Colorado. Gotcha. So in Colorado, is that where you go to prison?

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I went there. I moved there on a couple days' notice, knowing no one, no one with a drug habit, with the, you know, kind of faulty addict thinking, like change geography and it'll take care of your problem. Yeah, right.

Which, of course, it didn't. I found dope immediately when I got there. And escalated, escalated. And within six months of being there, I'd been arrested twice. Damn. You were going to make it happen no matter what, huh? Yeah. That's impressive, honestly.

Well, if nothing else, I'm persistent. Wow. Yeah, so I got two robbery charges in Colorado. Got sentenced to 20 years. 20 years. And obviously it didn't end up having to serve 20 years? No, no. Fortunately, in Colorado, if you behave, you only have to serve half of your sentence.

And then if you take part in certain programs, you can kind of work your sentence down. Right. You found out a knucklehead. Were you a knucklehead? No, not at all. That's right. I made a pretty conscious decision once I realized I could get out when I was, you know, 50. Sure.

Oh, sure. The age I am now. You're looking damn good, let me tell you what. Thank you. Is that when you got clean as well? I got clean pretty almost immediately after going to county jail. I had to, you know, before they send you to prison, you're going through all the court stuff and you have to be in county jail. So how brutal is something like withdrawal in a county jail?

It sucks. It's terrible. And that's why people like myself go to, what's why you go to the extremes of not having to experience with it all? Sure. Because it's fucking terrible. But for me, I mean, to kind of wrap it all up. Yeah.

And I know a lot of people wouldn't agree with this. In hindsight, for me, getting locked up, best thing to happen to me. Forced you to get clean. Yep. Forced you to have a perspective on what you're doing. I wish I could have learned out with a two-year sentence. Yeah. But you don't.

You don't unless you have that come to Jesus moment. Sure. Yeah. How long did you end up serving? Seven years. Seven years in prison. And because I had a violent crime, I had to go to a halfway house for two years. And I had to have an ankle monitor for two years.

And there's all kinds of progressive steps down to eventually freedom. Sure. What's your plan getting out? I didn't have one. Okay. Important note, though, I mean, not to get to any of the incarceration. please i would love that and and i don't want to you know create any controversy with bands i was in and stuff like that but people like bruce and aaron i didn't i didn't talk to

them all the time they didn't send me money all the time but they were there for me we would we would we would talk when we could we would write letters when we could i never heard a thing from the guys in hate breed never and in hindsight we were bandmates but we weren't friends Right. And whereas with the other guys, like, there were friendships there. And friendships that I'm very fortunate to still have today. So it's kind of a distinction for me. Okay.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, of course. But, um. And that makes things like yesterday make even much more sense. Yeah. And, totally. And mean, that much more. Yeah.

And I get it. I mean, I wouldn't fall anybody in any band for being like, you know, this guy. Sure. Just fucking bailed on. Yeah. Have you, have you spoken with, with the Haper guys since? much at all? Yeah, a couple times.

Well, I wasn't in hate breed with Sean at the same time, but... But you knew each other. Yep. Actually, his wife helped us buy her house when we first moved back here. Jessica Martin... The best.

If you are in Connecticut or Massachusetts, I think even New York now, Jessica Martin, realtor, unbelievable. So shortly after I got out, there was a... I think it was like Sounds of the Underground Tour or something came through Denver, and I was actually able to like, you know, go out without an ankle monitor?

How did that feel? And Shadow's Fall was playing, so I wanted to go see Paul, who I hadn't seen in a million years. And, of course, Haypreed was playing, but I didn't have a way to really get in touch with them. Right. So I went and I hung out with Paul, and I found out where Haybreed's bus was, and I kind of came around the corner. You surprised him? Yeah. Holy shit. And I met, you know, Frank and Matt and B.D., who obviously I obviously are in yours. And, yeah, and I talked with Jamie for a little while, but, I mean, he, Gotta look like he saw a ghost when I came around the corner of the bus. Like, oh shit, I don't know.

I mean, you know they've grown. I'm sure I've since that as. So in prison, you could have MTV 2 on your. So you're seeing it. Yeah, so I'm seeing him host head bangers ball. Wow. I'm seeing the whole live for this triple X thing blow up. Dudes are asking me about my tattoo because I've, you know, the tramp stamp.

Do they believe you? Well, at first, before, like, before Jamie was on, I mean, before hatebreed was like, you know, kind of a household name. Yeah. Guys would hit me up in prison. Like, you know, is that a crew? What does that mean? Like, it's a band, I swear God. Yeah, exactly.

I'm not like you. It's a man. But after that all blew up, I mean, definitely people were like, oh, I guess you must be a real fan of theirs, stuff like that. No. No. Actually, not. anymore. Wow.

I played drums in prison too, which was... Tell me more. Yeah, no kidding. Well, they had a music program. You had to, you know, behave well to even access it. Which prison was this, if you don't mind me asking? I was in a few. When I started, because I had a violent crime, you know, you started at a higher level.

Higher level. And you kind of worked down. But I was at a one in Colorado called Lyman. And they're all just named after the town they're in, basically. I've heard that the Boulder prison is like the nicest, prison. This is a hilarious thing to talk about. But you can you can go basically and you know, they have like church bands that'll play little songs. Sometimes Metallica. Sometimes Metallica. Do they have a china? No, they didn't. It's fucking bullshit. I should ask the warden for a

China. It's warden. Come on. I didn't get one on satisfaction. It's my biggest regret. Listen to what could have been. But it was really cool for my mental health to be able to do that even once in a while. That's awesome. It's just to get the chops up, you know? Well, it's cool to me that like, even though you're totally clean now and you have a different perspective, this is still something that, like, you're passionate about, you know, that you want to do that feels good. Yeah. That's awesome.

Any absolute shredders in the Colorado prison system? There's some really great guitarists. I bet. I mean, there's some talent. I mean, like, whatever you're talking about in prison, I mean, there's incredible artists. There's, yeah. I mean, people with nothing but time on their hands. Right.

perfect their whatever their craft is yeah how other than drums what was your what was your time your day-to-day take any classes or anything uh i took college classes that's awesome yeah um so that was really you know because i mean that's that's your biggest enemy is like filling the time constructively and not falling into into bullshit because is it just as easy relatively to to to get drugs if you needed to or wanted to oh definitely yeah so it's still right there so really you're making So even though I kind of, I guess, kicked it the physical part in prison. Yeah. I mean, it's everywhere.

When I first went to prison proper from county jail, the guy that they put me in the room with was bringing dope in through the visiting room. So you're having to make a conscious choice at this point, every day, basically. Although once you, you know, once you kick the physical part of it, it is more of a mental game. But it's arguably, I mean, I could be talking about my ass. it seems more difficult because you have all this time. Yeah. What else you're going to do? You know, wow, that's crazy.

But, I mean, 90% of the drama in prison, violence and, you know, piss fights to stabbings to whatever is about drugs or some kind of gambling debt. So right away, I'm like, you know. So you're doing yourself in favor. Yeah. I mean, you get out of prison and you're like Captain America coming out of the ice, you know? what do you do what's the first thing you do what's the first thing you eat what's what do you what are new hobbies you pick up so when a first thing you eat that's i got locked up in very early 2000 yeah

so um so PS2 was like so phone cell phones weren't even really yeah prevalent right i mean you you'd have the the giant ass one in your car maybe yeah hello what so that took a lot of getting You used to self-checkouts terrified me. Like at the halfway house, the first time I could go to the store by myself. I distinctly remember it. I could like walk to the store, unshaperoned, free to get deodorant. Right. And like.

I can do this myself. There's 800 kinds of deodorant. Yeah. Like in prison, you get one. You know what I mean? So I was just, I don't know. It was just like. Was everything over one?

Overstimulated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. What did you like? Why is this cash register talking to me? You know, shit like that. Just the world. I mean, are there bigger advancements in technology than 2000 to...

Well, it's like Brooks. He saw a car once before he went to prison, then he gets out. Yeah, Bruce. Do you recall the first thing you ate after you got out? Well, when I was at a halfway house, they pretty much feed you. Okay, they cook for you. It's kind of like prison where there's a child law and they feed you stuff like that. But I think the first thing I had was a Carls Jr.

Because that was close to the halfway house. That's a good. Sounds great. I imagine that would hit really well. But honestly, no matter what you ate, just being able to pick it for yourself. Yeah, that tastes better than anything. Wow. So you don't have a plan getting out.

What is your life like for the next year or two? Well, I got a job almost immediately. Okay. Because you have to. Do you have to? Right. And is carpentry? something you how do you get back into that well so one of the last facilities i was at like prison

wise um as they as they step you down through the security levels you get more freedom to to get on a work crew or do different things so i had a maintenance job that was like light carpentry repair and drywall fixing shit that people mess up in their in their cells um so i kind of kept those skills fresh i read about it a lot you know my family who would send me subscriptions to like trade magazines that cool because I was doing that stuff like all through when I was in pants right that was that was how I made 11 yeah right so when I got a chance to get a job that's just what I went back to and yeah I just started I just started working really my my big goal which really wasn't in my control was was to be able

to move back east because that's where almost all my family sure but you know That's not up to me. I could have gone. It's up to the life now. I've been on the run forever. How long before you were allowed to leave the state? 2012, maybe. Wow.

Yeah. That's why it took me a while to meet you, I guess. Yeah, and that was only like, that was like a heavily supervised, like, this is where you're going. This is when you're coming back. Oh, okay. I was still in the system, so to speak. Gotcha, got you. But you got to go see family, see friends. Yep.

Wow. Yeah. And so the woman I was dating. that precipitated moving to Colorado in the first place, we had a daughter. Ah. Who was born after I was locked up. Wow. So I got to spend some time with her when I got out because she was still in Colorado.

And then by the time I was actually free and could have moved to Mass, she was getting ready to go to high school. Okay. So you want to be there for you? Yeah. I mean, that's the worst possible time to leave. But I also have a son here. So anyway, we worked it out where my son could come visit and could go visit them. That's great.

Try to. And how are your relationships now? I would say under the circumstances, they're really good. Awesome. That's amazing. I mean, that's literally the best you could hope for. Obviously, there were some rough patches and a lot of, like, awkwardness of, you know, like an implied relationship, but you actually don't really know each other. Of course.

But the effort, I mean, the effort after all of that is huge. Yeah. Do they prefer hate breed or death threat? they don't give shit about bands I was in what are their names uh John and Ivey John and Ivy if you're watching you gotta make a choice

are they in the music at all or oh yeah big time they're both super into music and I think I mean they appreciate the musicians no my daughter played the piano a little while she's a like a pro skater

what like skateboarder uh roller skating like awesome That's incredible. X-game trick kind of stuff. Oh, yeah. Wow. In-line, yeah. Awesome.

Cool. That's a very Western Mass. Well, she's in Colorado. It's Colorado. Yeah. But the blood is Western Mass is right here. Wow, that's awesome. What's your son all about?

What's he into? He was in the, he joined the Marines. He came and lived with us in Colorado for a little while. And, you know, was kind of bouncing around, joined in the Marines. His mom didn't want him to.

But he did. He was in there for six years. And now he's a bail bondsman in Connecticut with a bunch of other Marines. So if you don't show up for court, these guys come and punch you down. I imagine they stay busy too. Wow.

So they work in like Hartford, Bridgeport. Hartford, Wild West. Living in the middle of Hartford is, I did that. It was there for a while. Yeah, I was finally able to move back. And it was kind of, you know, my daughter got to be a teenager. And they don't want to hang out with their parents. Yeah, of course.

And my mom is also kind of as this is going on getting older too, and she's in Springfield, so my wife and I moved back. Beautiful. When was that? When did you end up going back? When we moved back here? Yeah. It was like a couple months before COVID or before the pandemic started.

Oh, wow. Holy shit. Wow. Pressure cooker. We bought our house. Jessica Martin. And Jessica and Sean took us out to celebrate, and the waitress came and said, like, as we were having dinner, they're shutting.

cutting everything down. Like that night. Did you not get to eat? No, we smashed everything. We ordered like everything we could get. I was going to say, Sean Martin was not. He's like, I'm living here for something. Yeah.

Yeah. We ate and drank and. What the fuck? Although we didn't have any idea of how, you know. Yeah, of course. I distinctly remember having conversations with you with the band being like, there was a show. Six weeks, eight weeks.

We'll be fine. There's a rotting out show on like March 12th. Yeah. A lot of people got sick at the rotting out. You don't say. March 12. Wow. But then we moved back

to get back to the music thing. We moved back. Yes. Started doing some anniversary shows. I think that's the first time I met you. Yes. In Philly. This is hardcore.

That was for death threat? Yep. And that was with the original lineup. And who approached you about doing that? Aaron. So you're back and Aaron says... Well, actually, we did a couple shows before I moved back. I was still in Colorado and we just kind of met in the middle.

Yeah. But then we moved back and it was kind of more of a frequent thing. Where was the first one back? It was, it was, this is hard for 2019. How did that feel? Nervous. These guys are watching me. Yeah.

That didn't help. Yeah, I guess SliceLlight was not the first time. That was when you met. I just make that up. I've seen you do it before. Whatever. I probably did the same thing I did last night. We and me and my brother are watching.

So that's when you two, Matt, was 2019? Yeah, it was that day. I wouldn't watch Dyes of the Lord. practice. You did? That was really cool. Sorry, man, yeah. I'm stealing all your stuff all this time. That was probably like, what the fuck he's doing? I think. Where to get that China? Because we played, Harms Way played that year, but I think we played the night before. Yeah. And we, we played a fest in Montreal the next day. We had to leave immediately, so I didn't get to see. Mackie also played that night. Yes, he did. Big night. Good night for us, you know. So what, do you have plans now to do any kind of new music? Yeah, actually, we've been talking about writing some new death threat stuff.

Yeah. Which is probably, you know, time. For sure. Playing the same songs for a while. Yeah, but when it comes to a certain point, that's allowed. Well, although half the songs that we played last night are relatively new to me. Totally. You know, as far as playing them.

How is that? Are you like, damn, these are good? Yeah, I love them. They're so, like, they're a lot different, you know? Question for you. When you were locked up, were you keeping up with music? Were you listening to hardcore or anything? What were you able to get your hands on?

As much as I could, MTV2 was like my main conduit to the world. I mean, you know. It makes total sense. Yeah, ours too. That's literally, we talk about it all the time. That's like how I saw a typo for the first time. So I was watching like new metal really blow up. So I mean, like musically, especially for hardcore, I missed the 2000s.

Sure. basically. Which, some dark times. Yeah, that's what I hear. Yeah, some dark times. When I got out, Bruce, almost immediately when I got to the halfway house and could have stuff, Bruce sent me a loaded iPod with like everything that I missed. So it was like my first time here and Death Before Diss honor and I don't know, just all these bands that are, you know.

Man. Classic. That's a beautiful thing, huh? It's a good friend. You know, riding my bike to work. just have my mind blown by all this music. Years and years of hardcore to catch up on. Curated by Bruce.

And he's got his ear. He's got his ear to the ground. It's true. Are there other bands of like modern era that have jumped out to you as something you would have liked? Oh, yeah, tons. Okay. Tons. But I have this weird delay with music because of that time I missed, you know?

Totally. I'll hear something that's 15. years old and it's relatively new to me. This hot young man is awesome. Right. They're all gone. And then just the volume of new bands that is out there's a lot. I mean, it's like too many. There's overwhelming. There's, I feel like there's more now currently than absolutely. You can't ever go wrong with like, you know, trusted friends recommending your stuff. That's a good way to start. Could I trouble you? Could you tell me your four favorite hardcore records of all time?

I know. Take your time. the ones that made you, you know? First things that come to mind. I'd probably have to say, Cromag's self-titled. Asia Coral. Yeah, sorry. Bomb on the car.

Yeah, the box. Cromax bomb. 100%. Just because of, I mean, context of what I heard it. Totally. Fucking blew my mind. Killing Time Brightside would be huge. Like, again, context.

And, I mean, that's what. what that's what like blood bath and eventually all the stuff that got built onto that yeah was was trying to sound like what you do you as a drama not go yeah this is exactly yeah right this is kind of slept on deep cut but for me it was huge um stark weather into the wire whoa stark i'd never heard anything so that is evil and dude it's dark side it yeah but like beautiful and that's again there's that melody coming back because that guy is an incredible that guy can wail yeah interesting one more it probably especially saying this as a drummer a poison idea feel the darkness great dude love that

record and that I mean that's all that's one of the ones that you remember hearing for the first time and that motherfucker is dr. Phil he is doing yeah fills every every like 10 seconds there's a good good gagged yeah unbelievable yeah that's one of my favorite records. Those are great answers. Those are just often, I mean, I could probably Dr. Foggles. I like the reflex, though. Now, I just hit a fill of. I'm going to do a fool.

So, something I want to know, Jamie. In prison, many people find religion, spirituality. Is that something that you ever dabbled in? No, I can't, I can't say. So as a non-religious man, I didn't know where you were going with this. Do you believe in ghosts?

No. right. See? You've seen terrors that explainable terrors I suppose.

Man-made. So you never seen any, you never had a conversation with Pete Morrissey about specters and

the occult and no, I've had a lot of conversations with Pete, but never, never about that. You should ask

him about it. You might end up feeling differently. You know, you never had, you never seen nothing. You never heard nothing that made you

second guess that? No, I wouldn't say so. I'm not superstitious, so I tend to, you know, try to, like, put some kind of logic to it. Yeah. The other night at a family thing I was at with Taylor, there was a little guy, three, and he was pointing at a dark room and going, ah, you know, like, wasn't really verbal yet. And pointing, and the whole family was, was, like, frozen, like, what's he pointing at? What is he doing?

And I got up and looked, and there was, like, a little LED candle. Like, you just want to... Beautiful candle. held it to him and he went and touched it and that was it was it was a perfect it reminded me of you so much you're that kid oh i'm i'm i'm the candle do you believe in aliens now you're talking no color no you don't think they exist straight if you don't see them in colorado you're not seeing that's true well i'm just very i mean obviously there's a ton of unexplained kind of stuff like that but i mean both paranormal and aliens but i mean i got to see something to you got to see it okay you believe

what you're open to it I'm open to it. Yeah, okay. I think that's the logical. Much like Santa. Yeah. Come on. I'm waiting.

Give me something. Please. Santa, aliens, ghosts, if you're watching. Pay Jamie a visit. Okay. Demons don't. Make me a believer. Yeah, make him a believer, please.

So during your brief touring tenure as a journeyman around the country, did you ever tour internationally at all? No. Recently went to. and played in Europe for the first time. Wow. Last year with death threat. How was that?

Incredible. Where'd you play? Revolution calling, Eindhoven. Einhoven. Yeah. One of my favorite cities in the entire continent. My wife and I spent a week there and just kind of... It's really nice.

Do some tourist stuff. They really like Americans there? Yeah. World War II. And their English was like, hey, Jamie. Yeah. To me, a Hans. Yeah, it's really good to me.

Yeah. I love it there. I recently went to Canada for the first time, too, which as a felonist, Tough to do. Tough to do. How was that? It was great.

We went with Guy gone. You had a good agent that day at the border. Yeah, well, we paid a hefty. They're the fucking worst. For an immigration lawyer and bullshit. I hate borderation. It's easier to go to Eindhoven, then drive four hours. We're going to Toronto or Montreal.

Montreal in Quebec City. Yeah. Montreal is pretty cool. Death threat country. Yeah. How was the show? It was great. Yeah.

Fuck, yeah. Blast. Beautiful. I don't think they had played up there in a long time. Cool. Nice. Throughout your touring tenure, when you're not, and this feels such a silly, such a silly question to ask you. Are you a food-driven person at all?

Not really. Not really? You're skinny guy. Yeah, I'm a skinny guy. You've been skinny your whole life? Yeah. I've pretty much been this weight my whole life. Really?

Good for you, man. I've been that weight a month ago. I've been too 50. Can't stop. But even so, this is difficult for us because we are the most food-driven individuals. I imagine there's still something where you're like, God, that sounds good. What gets you going? What gets you skirting off the freeway?

I need that. As far as stuff you might find on tour? Yeah, we like to ask, we call it the Golden Archers question. We're going to rebrand that, I think. But we just, we like to pretend there's a place somewhere, wherever you are, It just has anything. It's magic. Well, I'm a huge breakfast head.

There we go. Okay. Any, you know, I'll eat breakfast three times a day. Yeah. If it came to that. So is that like eggs and sweets or an egg and steak, you know? More, more savory than sweet. Yeah, I don't eat a lot of sweet stuff.

Okay. Skinny. Yeah. Skinny. That's how you stay that way. I've learned. So, you know, anything like, you know, a cracker barrel, Bob Evans. Oh, dude.

Bob Evans. The home fries at Bob Evans? That's a place that I would like avoid it at all costs. You should. It's good. It's good. Denny's has a special place in my heart because what I met my wife, after getting out of prison. Yeah.

We used to kind of go there because she was working nights and I would work during the day and we'd kind of meet there when we're dating and. Yeah. Now were you out for a prison for the Hobbit franchise coming out? Yes. Did you get to enjoy the Hobbit menu at Denny's? Yes. Unbelievable. Wow, really?

You, okay. That's the first time. You didn't mess anything. You got the Hobbit menu. You're doing fine. Don't worry. How you feel about Waffle House? I love it.

Yeah, we're going to go smash it while we're here. That's the best of the best. That's the best one, in my opinion. There's one right across street from our hotels. Perfect. And it's dinner and a show, you know, because you're going to see something insane. Although death threat, we went to, we went to Perkins this morning. Just because we don't get that.

in North East. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not, no. No, it's not great. We have that up by me. I'm not a Perkinsman. No. Not a Perkinsman. I'm a Wal-Files guy. 100%. Yeah. Last question would be, can you tell me about being on television? Yes, so when I got out of prison, I, you know, I had a couple construction jobs.

Eventually, once I was free, I got a job for a deck company in Colorado, which did some really, really cool stuff. But the owners of that company got approached by, you know, how big reality construction DIY stuff is. Reality in general is just like a never-ending multi-billion dollar. I've worked in reality TV for a long time. Yeah. But the owners got approached about, because they do pretty unique, like over-the-top.

Decks. Yeah. I mean, they're more like additions on the house, so they'll have an outdoor kitchen in them and they'll be fully glassed off and have a fireplace and heaters. Yeah. So it's hard. Colorado. The idea is that you can use your outdoor space all year, basically.

So anyway, they got approached by one of those networks to do a pilot, and I was a project manager at that time. I'd kind of worked my way up. So they filmed my crew for three seasons, which is like, I don't know, ended up being like 18 projects for us. Right. And the rank and file guys who were doing the work, we didn't get paid anything extra.

We didn't really get asked if we wanted to do it. more like this is what we're doing. It's a good move for the company. I see. But after the first season of it, which was like eight projects, they kind of ran out of work locally. And so we started traveling to do that. So I went to Louisiana and did one. I went to Snake River, Idaho to do one. And what was the show called? Megadex. It's somewhere, it's like on Amazon. I think you have to pay for it now. Okay. I'm paying. But after three seasons, they just, you know,

I think the reality TV crowds attention span is pretty shitty. Oh, the bubble is, the bubbles, it's, the shittier, the better, and that's too good. That's high, bro. Yeah, that's high, bro. But as a tradesperson, and also, like, as the guy who was responsible for getting these, because there's, like, real customers paying money for these jobs. Uh-huh. I hated it because it made their jobs take longer.

Totally. These people didn't sign up to be on the TV show. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. And they didn't get, you know, they're, they're. They just had their backyard. They're not getting sag minimum.

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So that kind of ran its course, and we worked for that company. My wife also worked there in the office. How did you guys meet? Well, she worked at a restaurant in downtown Colorado Springs, which is one of the few that was, like, in driving distance to, because that's the other thing you can't do in a halfway house until you've gone through is, like, drive a car or have a car. Yeah. So I was, like, walking or biking everywhere.

Yeah. Right. So anyway, that was one of the few places that I could go. And I knew another hardcore guy who went into that place all the time. And so anyway, I just met her and we just started talking. We were both playing fantasy football at the time. So we went to Denny's and, you know, to play fantasy football, we were kind of just, you know, making puppy eyes at each other.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Beautiful. She's from Texas, so, I mean, I probably never would have met her if I had stayed in the Northeast. See, everything happens for a reason. And the Hobbit. And you got to enjoy the Hobby menu together. Yes. As long as that.

She would be coming off work, so she would be having like, you know, a Sunday or something. And I'd be having breakfast. The pancake puppy Sunday? Unreal. I don't know that one. You don't know that one. They still got it? Do they?

Yeah, it's pancake balls of pancakes. Or like hush puppy. Over. Got you. Sosser of ice cream with some fudge. That sounds amazing. To check that out. You got to check it out.

You might not like it, Slendon. But, you know, Jamie, I've had a blast. Yeah, this rocks. This is one of my favorite conversations I think we've ever had. Are there any kind of final thoughts you would like to leave us or the people at home with? I appreciate you guys, you know, listening to me, rant. I'll do it any time. This is the first podcast or really interview that I've ever done.

so it was fun and I definitely kind of had built up in my head a little bit because I mean some of this stuff is just feels like a lifetime ago sure of course um obviously but uh you know I I enjoyed it great so did we yeah thank you I can't believe peace and security was recorded two years before it came out and we just glossed over it can you tell me about recording pieces of security you got your china back I did that's huge yeah that's only a year later or something after satisfaction So, yeah, it was about a year after. Sorry, we're gonna, we can go another hour right now. Terror starts in 15.

Okay. We got this. So we recorded that in Stoughton Mass at the outpost. Okay. I think Blood for Blood recorded there. Oh, okay. And that was really only my second time in like a real studio, because Zeus recorded last days.

Right. And the death of a demo. And was the last days like eight-track situation again? Yeah. Wow. it sounds fucking. Oh, no, actually, last days we recorded in Buffalo because we stayed with Vogel.

Interesting. Yeah. It sounds great. Can I ask you something I've always wanted about last days? Where did the SDS chance? Where was that recorded? Webster Theater in Hartford.

Really? Yeah. That is really cool. Was that, like, just at a show? Yeah, it was a, it was a hatebreed in Earth Crisis. See, this is what I want to know. This is the stuff I love. And they, um, we used to have a kind of a,

roadie friend of the friend of the band hey breed a guy named big Mike who passed away okay but the the staff at the venue was trying to kick him off the stage and so this is the big room yeah the big room yeah they were trying to kick him off the stage yeah and he he was a huge guy yeah but anyway there was a lot of them so once we saw that everyone just kind of turned on them and for me it being a drummer, I just stopped playing. And the quickest way for me to get to the action was to jump over the drum set, like off the drum set.

You know, which these guys are, these guys, they were bigger than Mike. Totally. But I don't know. I just launched myself at them. But anyway, after that scrum kind of resolved itself, everyone, like all our friends, started the SDS chant. That's one of the coolest nuggets we've ever got.

Unbelievable. Last day is peace and security, satisfaction. Three of my favorite records ever. Speaking to the man on the kit behind them, Jamie, thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys. Truly an honor. Appreciate you.

I'll do a big reach. Yeah. He made me who I am as a drummer. He've inspired many. He will continue to inspire many. And now they get to know you a little bit better and so bye. Beautiful thing. Thank you all for watching.

See you next week. Bye.