HardLore - Pat Flynn (Have Heart / Fiddlehead)

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

Colin and Bo talk to legendary modern hardcore frontman Pat Flynn of Have Heart and Fiddlehead about his path to hardcore music, Have Heart's early rise to acclaim, touring in Africa, their massive reunion shows and much more.   HardLore: A Knotfest Series, Fueled by Monster Energy Edited by Steven Grise • Title sequence by Nicholas Marzluf Join the HARDLORE PATREON to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episodes. Join the HARDLORE DISCORD for community discussions and to participate in our future Q&A episodes. FOLLOW HARDLORE: INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, SPOTIFY, APPLE FOLLOW COLIN: INSTAGRAM FOLLOW BO: INSTAGRAM, TWITTER   For sponsorship opportunities, email us! [e-mail] Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, welcome. It's Hardlore Time. What's up, Bo? Hey, buddy, boy. What an unbelievable guest we have this week. How about it? We had to come back hard as fuck after taking a week off. We took a week off.

That's right. Let's, this man, he needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one. Modern, modern legend, I would say. Like, like, king. of the gateway modern hardcore frontman am I wrong both

no I couldn't I mean gateway is in like hey here's here's the blueprint you know yeah what else is there of modern here's this thing that's going to change your life there's vulgal

vulgar and now and Mr. Pat Flynn thank you fellas appreciate that thank you so much for being here how you doing I'm doing great. Happy to talk to core.

That's what I live for. Yeah. We were all at Furnace Fest together. Couldn't make a mini one happen. Much rather have a regular one happen, to be frank. Absolutely. I did, I swear to God, I looked for you guys. Oh, I found fucking nothing.

I went, I think the occasionist strain was playing. And I went behind the stage, and he flashed the badge. I'm allowed to go back here. I swear. And they let me through. Well, you found, you didn't find anything. We found a bunch of ghosts.

So maybe that was same time. Okay. Maybe. Maybe we were in an all spirit dimension while you came looking for us. Okay. We'll get to that. Yeah, we'll get the spirit dimensions, Pat. Don't worry.

So, you know, the premise is tour stories. and when you talk to people like bands that I know hardcore bands that have played Africa not too many are there more than one yeah yeah CDC has literally played

every fucking inch of this kind of this world that's the fucking that's the roster have heart CDC straight from the path played Africa I know that that. Wow.

Okay. I think we stick to your guns, too. I think that was like a, I think, I could be wrong. I know. I love to learn. Backtrack went a lot of places. They did. As did foundation.

I don't think they hit the effort. But I don't think they hit that. No, I think you're absolutely correct. They didn't know what this man did. We, uh, the summer that we did that, just to stay on the CDC tip as I try to, pretty much everywhere we would go we would be like

we're fucking breaking barriers we are like the first to get here from the US and we're like oh no the CDC was here like two weeks ago we're like oh fucking cool dude's chilling real all right we got to the Chinese mainland

like and they're like we're like are we like are we like one of the first like American hardcore bands ever to play here they're like actually this band from Pennsylvania CDC was here. We're like, oh, dope.

So then, like, we kept relegating it to, like, for the first straight edge, our core. Ah, there we go. Most importantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't believe you guys bear trap, CDC, man. Unbelievable. Just follow their routing, hopping on the gig.

Oh, wait. Is that a reference to the Massachusetts being Bear Trap? Oh, wow. I didn't know you were aware. Oh, brother. Shout out Mikey from Bear Trap. I'm aware. They did a tour, like, I remember.

talking to Mikey at one point and be like, hey man, you know that it's not 1980 anymore, that you don't have to do the thing that like Black Flag did, which is just like go out into the country and wait for a gig to happen. Yeah. Yeah.

But they did that a lot. And I, kudos, kudos to that. I mean, they had some say, some call them insane. Some on this show. But not insane. But, and like their, their gimmick was like, they would look at another band's routing and be like, all right, this is what we're doing.

On the U.S. I bet you it. The only show I've ever booked in my entire life was Bear Trap in Chicago. They headlined or hopped on? They, they headlined. There was like a local band's demo release. Like, I made it, I made it cool. It was a good gig.

It was a good gig. I was able to get them like 500 bucks. Bear Trap, 500 bucks. Yeah. So they love you. I didn't. I don't think I paid local bands a dime. Well, how could he was just like, you know, yeah, come on.

I'm just going to throw it on the road. Here you go. And it was a house show. It was great. $500 at a house show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Packed. It's packed.

It was great. Elbeian House, Chicago. Let's go back in time a little bit, Pat. Could we? Would you mind if we did? Let's do it. A history. Pre-have-heart.

Yeah. Well, how you teach you? You want to go pre-have-heart? I want to teach your history today. I want you to teach me your history. Pre, are you, are you born in Braddon, Boston? The family is, but I'm an Army brat. So my father was, like, he was, uh,

Oh, really? My grandpa was like a military surgeon. So like my, I'm the only Yank, Yank in the whole family, only one. Oh, no kidding. Connecticut. Where was Taylor born? North Carolina. Oh, southern.

Got it. Like, where, like, your family's roots? Dude. Like, roots, roots?

You'll love this. Yeah, yeah. Tell them. Tell him. Brother, I'm like 30th generation American at this point, you know? My roots are that rock

that's well protected. You ever heard of it? Plymouth? Oh, in Plymouth? Yeah. The Plymouth Rock? Yeah.

No shit. Southern as fuck, dude, all over the south. And then, and then Connecticut. for me. I've always

just associated with just being a California boy. Yeah. I got 0134 in my veins, man. I was born into it. I don't know what that it is. It's a guitar thing.

That's all right. It's a guitar thing. You don't know your... Listen. You're handsome as ever. You don't need to be known about RIF. So pre-have heart. Tell me the story, man.

Yeah. Mal justice. Army Brat moved around, couldn't really relate. It had youngest. My brother and sister had it kind of shittier than I did in the sense of just like moving around. So they, I have like this working theory that like maladjusted, like people who just like shift around around are like drawn to, they simply can't relate to like mainstream art or music. So like, you know, even if it was like guns and roses, my brother was like very early on.

I look back on like, he was like, he had to have been like seven or eight. And he was listening to Guns and Roses. And the Nirvana came out and like, you know, he's like nine. And he's like, yeah, this is the fucking shit. And passing it off to me. And my sister likewise was just sort of like really into like, it kind of blows my fucking my. went on like this summer school trip to Paris and that was a summer that like I think like bell and Sebastian put out like if you're feeling sinister and um and and and like it was just like

plastered everywhere all around Paris and like so she was like I'll get this and she came back with as like a middle schooler listening to like to cool any rock and so she dove deep into that and I I knew that like what my brother and sister were listening to was not really normal because my brother like then dove pretty deep into like kind of like real grunge world he got like a scratch acid CD or something like that what else was in around like a swan's record

I remember being like well this is like you're like blasting filth and I'm like in the fifth grade listening to this I'm like this doesn't seem right this doesn't seem right let me show me more. Yeah, I think on the back of filth, I think when you open the insert, it says like, this record should only be played at like the highest volume possible on your record player. And so like my brother was like, well. Yeah.

So you play that. And I just remember thinking like all the music that my friends like at the small Catholic school in Massachusetts listening to, I think it sucks. Like it totally is terrible. and I can't relate with it. So after moving around a bunch at the age of seven, my father retired. He was Colin Powell's speechwriter during Desert Storm. Oh, wow. Damn.

Before, like, while Powell was hot. Yeah, yeah, but he didn't write the speech that sent us into Iraq. Okay, so not the UNs. Okay, got to. My father did not write that one. Okay. He had retired well before that. But he retired in 92. I'm like seven. We come back to Massachusetts. And, you know, I'm in, you know, south of Boston, about 45 minutes south is this kind of gateway city called New Bedford. I grew up in a, from starting the age of seven, like in a small little town right outside of New Bedford called a Cushnet. Doesn't have any stoplights. It's really fucking small. But, yeah, and I was just like went to this really tiny, tiny Catholic school. My parents were,

raised like Irish Roman Catholic and so New England man pretty much what is it about New England and being Catholic it's just if you it's it's I out if you know Irish Irish immigrants hatred for the English and Protestants of Irish immigrants and like just and also like the Catholic Church is like diehard passion to just kind of control people through guilt and shame and getting them young in the school so which they did quite well. But so we had like music day. It's just an example of like kind of my musical upbringing.

It's pretty fucking cool in my opinion. But I was in the sixth or six or six, it must have been the fifth or sixth grade. I loved the crow growing up. Yeah. What a soundtrack. I know. Well, what's his face from Indecision?

Made T-shirts of the soundtrack. Oddly did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oddly from Incendiary just remade them, I think. I don't know if they made them together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was I say indecision of it?

Did I say indecision? I'm sure they say their own band's name. They say each other's band's names. When I see Brian, I always talk about the soundtrack. You are doing great. I'm trying to get him to make a t-shirt for the Crow 2. Oh. Which I think is, it's not as good as the Crow 1 soundtrack, but it's got some hits.

Is that the Edward Furlong one or was he in the third one? Oh, no. That's the good one. I think that's the crow like seven or something like that. There's more than two. Yeah, the guy, the principal from the OC season three is the crow in the second one. Vincent Perez was on the OC. Okay, it's not Vincent Perez.

That must be four. Edward Furlong does an incredible job. I just want to put that out there for the public. record as the crow yeah just to knock i love that you're right like you're using this platform it is october you're like you know what i'm gonna justice for the crow sequence but so i'm in uh sixth grade mrs ganon is our music teacher she also played the organ at mass that they would make us go to and um each week we got to bring in some music and you know i'm just fucking rocking the crow soundtrack uh pretty frequently uh and so i'm

I'm like, all right, I'm going to bring in, my favorite song on the soundtrack is by Nine Inch Nails. It's a cover of Joy Division's Dead Souls. I put it on, and I'm like, this is it. And like the opening is, I mean, probably honest, like Joy Division wasn't exactly the most, like, musically advanced band, like, you know, into the ears of, like, you know, an organ player. So she's like, remember, she goes like, this isn't music. This isn't music at all. she said something really disparaging

and I remember just being like oh fuck you you fucking asshole but now I look back on it and I didn't even really know it was a Joy Division cover but I can claim that in music class I brought in like a Joy Division song and yeah you know by like one of the most famous

and rich guitar bands to like ever exist now yeah yeah so you know take that this canon she actually was a really sweet sweet old lady, but she just really pissed me off that day. But anyway, so like that actually kind of amplified my, my, my love for, you know, left of center music, I guess you could say. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and, uh, I just dove, I just dove deeper. I got, I mean, I had a pretty strong new middle phase. I blame the Crow two soundshunders. That's shocking to me, honestly. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, like a lot of people say I was born with a.

Blood, sweat and no tears at my ass. I feel like I figured that would be SSD or something for you, you know. Came out of the womb. You know what I can say, though? I actually can't say that in middle school, I did have a sick of at all sweatshirt. See? And but I didn't know. I had a record up my ass, so I got you beat.

There you go. I, yeah, I just saw, they were on fat records at the time. And I saw the sweatshirt and I was like, I'm angry. I'll wear that. I'm sick of it all. And then every teacher you ever met after that was like, me too, man. Me too, buddy. Well, then so it happened.

I think like that same year, some dude shot up a college or an army base wearing a sick of it all. t-shirt. And I don't think he was a fan of Sigavidol either, but that's real deal. You can look that up. Some dude shot up an army-based or military-based wearing a Sigibbuttall shirt, and my father,

Lieutenant Colonel, retired, already worried about his, like, black t-shirt, Marilyn Manson, 9-inch nails, wearing son, now seized a fucking dude wearing a shirt. wearing a shirt, the same band of the hoodie that I was wearing.

He took that and he was like, he's like, you're not wearing this. And I was like, what? What, I just like the shirt. And he was like, no, you, you're not allowed to do this. And I was like, oh, it was like the one thing that he wouldn't allow. He hated. So Lieutenant Colonel finally broke on one thing and it was a sick of it all shirt? Well, I think it was because of the shooting.

It attracts. Yeah, absolutely. And I get that. I'm a parent. I might be a little, if I had no idea about like whatever, if my son got into like, I don't know what's something I don't really know about right now?

I don't really know about suicide. I mean, the sign, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm going to kill my mom. Kill my dad.

If he's rocking that. Even, even fucking the yellow Fred Perry, you know, they got bastardized. Like, you know, my mom would,

could see me where, Isn't that what those fucking guys wears? Wow. No. Yeah, but no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that, but my father was pretty cool.

I plastered my, there was the local video store that would, like, give out, like, posters, and I would, I got, like, the Lost Highway, you know, movie poster. Anything, I just plastered my room. There's a picture out there somewhere of me in my room, but, like. No frames, just taped up posters. Yeah. And that was so good. I had a, I had this fucking giant downward spiral.

I don't even know, they don't even know why they made them, but Newberry Comics is just the big record store in Boston. Used to, they don't do it anymore, but like they would give out posters that are basically wallpaper. And I, when you buy it,

it would be like this thick. And you'd be walking out with like a joust out of the store. And I, it was like, you know, like my birthday or something like that. And I was like, hey, dad, I want to get this poster. And he was like, uh, all right.

It's like, it's really depressing. It's a cover of downward spiral. My father's like, oh, what the hell's wrong with my son? Yeah. Like you having a new metal phase is truly bending my brain. I think it's just the time, right? Like, it's just what was countercultural at the time? I pretty much.

And it was like, I think it was. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, that's actually probably the better way. I couldn't even define the word culture at the time. So it was really about like kind of seeing what my parents might not like. But my parents were really smart about it because they didn't play their cards. Like they didn't show me their cards.

They didn't really show me that they hated what I was doing. So I had trouble figuring out how to rebel. And so in very, I don't know if they planned this, but like, I hand to God, I can remember the moment, but I had like a ball chain necklace and I had a ball chain wallet chain and these giant Jencos. I was like a total new lord. And I had, I think I had heard, damn it, my blink 182 on the radio. And I think the college radio, because it wasn't, when that song came out, it wasn't like everywhere, everywhere. Right, yeah, yeah.

College radios would play and it and it was a little bit on MTV here and there. And I remember a couple months prior, I found a CCS skateboarding magazine on the bus. Dude, absolutely. We would share, I went to the Catholic school in the same town was the public school and the public school kids were like into skateboarding.

And someone must have left a magazine. So I got it and I was like, hey, these people aren't like, they don't look like, you know, the Sisters of Mercy, you know, they don't look like they're in skinny puppy, and they're just wearing t-shirt and jeans having a good time. And I was like, and they look cool skateboarding. A couple weeks later, I hear, I hear, damn it. And it's like, it just has like this kind of casual but still aggressive, but relatable lyrical content. And probably a week later, I looked in the

mirror in the downstairs, my parents' house, and I've got my ball chain necklace on. My hair was like parted down the middle and like, oh, I'm black. And I remember just being like, you look like such a fucking loser. And I would never say that to somebody else, but I just, I was like, wasn't you. And it wasn't me. And I was just trying something else. But I like to think that like my father or my mother were like in the background being like, he's realizing it.

Yeah, yeah. Do you remember what that would have been? They let me do my thing. We're gonna say what? Do you remember what year that would have been? Probably 90. I don't know, whatever year, damn it comes out. Yeah, when did damn it come out?

Okay. It was like-97? Yeah. And the other thing is the Boston Globe did a little expose on what the hell was happening in Boston at the time. And at the time, it was like this crazy resurgence. It was like the rebirth of hardcore, 10-yard fight, in my eyes, Ripe Brigade.

All these bands were exploding in Boston. and so they did so like did that or just the globe i think it was a globe not wasn't wasn't spotlight it was like just and my mother showed it to me and she was like hey like aren't you kind of familiar with this this music and i was like oh yeah like i kind of heard whispers of like what straight edge was and um but uh so it was like kind of a perfect storm but then like i then what really happened um was I went to, I started understanding that there was an unseen war taking place between who would go to Warptor and who would go to Ozfest. It was really like Gaza Strip-style conflict, I guess you would say. Maybe that's not a good analogy.

Well, you know, it was effective. Yeah, there you go. But anyway, I was like, because of that, I understood that war. I was like, I have to take a side. I can't be caught in the fence here. So I just, I just dive the fuck deep into the epitaph and Fat Records catalog. And through those bands, I'm starting to understand like, oh, there's this, there's this other even more kind of real and legit world of punk. And like, I don't know if I can, like, remember all the lyrics to crass, but, you know,

crass is do they owe us a living, but I'll give it a try. And I, I didn't go to school one day. And I spent the entire day learning the lyrics to do they owe us living by crap. Wow. Still, I can still recite them. But I was fucking committed. And I didn't understand what the fuck he was talking about as like a lower middle. class suburbanite and like kind of just like regular USA Massachusetts.

It's funny that you gave up your ball chain and middle part for crass, you know? Like the other side of the ball chain middle part. That's about right. It took a minute though. I got to crash through the field of epitaph and fat records and just kind of reading the epitaph inserts and just sort of seeing the imagery and being like, oh, there's something more. But then what bounced me out of like,

Anarcho punk was like the fact that like I couldn't understand the lyrical content and I wasn't having fun learning the lyrics to Nagasaki nightmare. Yeah. You'd never been nuked. You know you couldn't relate, you know? Yeah, it was tough. I was never had, I was never a woman who had my, was dragged out in the streets of Paris and had my head shaved.

So it's hard to relate when you're 12th. Different journey, you know. Yeah. so what so who's who's your old head that finally was like yeah yeah hey hey yo kid let me show you something you know who was the guy um or guys you uh just like uh like this dude this dude joe from new bedford uh he he he he he he i started going to shows i went well i went to warp tour and i was like this kind of fucking sucks and I hate

don't get wrong I hate 7 dust I'd like to see them die but I saw everyone saw everyone like walk by and flip them off and I was like that's not cool that's kind of lame these too yeah I was like these guys are just playing and that was the beginning of crossing the streams it was the year that Eminem played suicidal

played I think Kid Rock played was summer 99 the same same summer kid rock played fucking Woodstock yeah that documentary It was unbelievable. Man, how about that scene, Limp Bizkit playing? Bases comes out, double birds out?

The whole world watching. I've just been dying to do that at a fiddlehead show. Just walk out, double birds. One of the most incredible things about that Kid Rock set is they, they like open with like an Uncle Cracker, like DJ 10 minute, like medley. Oh, no kidding. And they play the one breakdown by Metallica, but they just fuck up and stop. in front of, you know, 80,000 people. In front of everyone.

It's literally like, D-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-d-l-d-l-d-l-d-and-and- then they're just like, just stop. Wasn't Metallica playing like later that night or something like that, too? I don't remember if they played 90. They played 94. I don't know if they played 99. Wait, at Woodstock or?

Yeah, Woodstock, 99. Metallica played, I think, the Saturday night. Did they really? then they just weren't in that documentary. Yeah, I think a lot of... There was like two documentaries of the Woodstock. What was a Hustalkan? A Metallica historian.

Relax. So what was the band then that Joe knew Bedford? Well, Joe gave me a whole list. It was pretty great. He just, this was the value of the kind of the internet already starting to show. It's power. But he was like an aim, aim name.

Yeah. It was like ex subvert X after like a subhuman song or something like that. And he, because I was familiar with, I was familiar with the minor threat, but I didn't like fully understand like who beyond that. I just knew that minor threat was a coat. And he just sent me a list of just like, you know, negative roach and the fix and circle jerks and just the whole list. And, you know, it's around summertime when my birthday is. my my sweet father brought me in Newberry comics I think he was delighted that I wasn't bringing home

a fucking canon size poster of just like a depressing piece of art just a stack of records and CDs and I just got I basically got everything that that Joe listed you know every so was everything at once to that kind of really brought you right yeah yeah and and like and then I like I was like oh these lyrics aren't that hard to remember I get the most part I get I get understand the concepts. And I was 14 at the time, so 14, 15. But, but, but, but, but my love for, like, the new metal stuff stayed with me. So, like, eventually when I started discovering, like, 90s hardcore, I was like, oh, shit. This is like, this is kind of bringing me back to, like, you know, what I really liked. I love, I mean, I loved the heavy shit, but I just kind of,

I kind of felt weird about it. Embarrassed. Yeah, some of those limp biscuit lyrics were a little. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the point, though. Yeah, right. Yeah. They definitely knew how to, you know, like bring a vibe. But, you know, and like, I just remember some corn songs.

I was like, oh, this is like pretty intense. I remember listening to, like, I remember listening to, what's the last song on the first record? And it's just like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. pretty, you familiar with what I'm talking about here? Yeah, is it? It's about, like, it's a deep display of someone basically, like, just pouring out their trauma from childhood sex abuse. Like actual sex abuse from his dad, I believe, yeah.

Yeah, and I remember just being like, damn, I just, like, I don't know if I have the emotional budget for this all the time, like right now and like, well said. But, you know, don't even wrong, like, I'm down for the heavy, heavy lyric. content but i just um not that not in that way for me but so but i loved the the aggression and the sound and so discovering like 90s hardcore for the first time through really i think was uh i was a big fan of outspoken but like i only had the first seven inch which was like a pretty kind of straightforward kind of youth crew sounding thing and then the guitarist uh k sui joined have Forard about two or three.

The goat, dude. Oh, you're familiar. Oh, I'm familiar. Big fan. He showed me Outspoken's the current. And I couldn't believe my fucking ears here. Is Kay your old head? I think with 90s hardcore, he basically is.

Breaking news on hardlore here. Talking about breaking news when Havard's like original like, you know, support base was like pretty. straightforward youth crew stews and then Kay joins the band and we start writing with his influences and we were all totally for it. We had heard unreleased inside out songs and I was like holy shit this is fucking so sick. Kay was down for it so we just kind of started thrown it into that but you know the seven inch before our first record is like you know it's pretty straightforward but you would have thought that. that we came out, judging by the reaction of our original support base of like the youth crew

stews, you would have thought that like we put out an acoustic album or something like that. There was total vitriol from the Connecticut Straight Edge. They were, they thought that we dropped the ball with our first LP that we were like trying to be a metal band or something like that. That's so crazy. That's so funny. But this is really good to talk about because we talk about this a lot when it's like people a lot of times assume that a band and it does happen where a band

comes out and within two years they're huge but like that does not always happen seldom does it happen and I remember have heart playing Chicago at Pulaski Park District very near where I am

like on the 7 inch I believe and oh shit yeah long Did expired youth play that? Yeah, expired youth played it. And it was like the day after posy numbers. Probably, probably, yeah.

I wasn't allowed to travel. But, you know, it was, I don't even think I went, full disclosure, I don't think I even went to that show for whatever reason. Something was going on. But it was like, you know, not a crazy show from, you know, from all accounts. Like, there was no one there. I didn't want to talk out of turn. But yeah, that sounds crazy.

But, but, you know, it's important to talk about how it's like, yeah, half-heart at one point, and we'll get there, play to 10,000 people. You sure did, fellas. And, you know, and then also at the beginning of this band's career, played to barely anywhere. Zero in Chicago. Yeah. Our show in Hong Kong had zero attendees. Yeah. I've been there, brother.

I've been there in Los Angeles. As of I We've Clean toilets in Fresno for money essentially Oh yeah That makes sense CYC is that the place Or was it pre CYC

It was like a house show I just remember like me like damn what am I I might be doing the wrong thing here Yeah But I remember that That was our first time playing in Chicago It was the day after Baza numbers

Who was the singer Ryan? Ryan was the singer yet Yeah I had no a couple Chicago people is there a band called time

or no escape or no not no escape time to escape or time time to die hmm that time to die no time left

this sound Chicagoey it does some kind of time clock related something something in there if you're watching

let us know Mr. Mr. Caution you yeah caution was one of his bands I think

they were supposed to play Boston and I was booking shows around Boston for a while, so touring bands hit me up. And that was like our connection in Chicago. Okay. And that's how we got that show. We were on route to California. And I'm positive numbers that have been shut down.

It's a big fight. And I remember Ryan had some commentary about fighting at show. Oh. But, you know, saying, can't do that. Yeah. And then remember he said he looked to me like, I have an additional microphone. Oh, wow. Hey.

Remember he looks at me. Prop, prop comedy. He looked at me and he goes, I was just watching, I think it was expired. You guys, you're a positive force on the scene. Don't stop. Keep going. And I was like, look, yeah, man. I'm with you.

I'm with you, soldier. And, yeah. That was, you know, I think, I mean, I don't keep in touch with Ryan that much. but, you know, if I saw him, I'd try and catch up. Yeah. But we played to nobody in Chicago. Eventually, we did pretty well in Chicago. Yes.

Yeah, I bet you did. I have two questions. Hit me. Well, I guess one is more of just a statement, because I was going to talk about that. Like, when you think of have heart, you might not think it's spin kick music. But let me tell you,

certified, it's spin kick approved for one. Thank you. Thank you. This is objective. I'm speaking objectively. I appreciate that. When we wrote the first kind of spin, I remember when we wrote it, we were like, oh, boy. We got it.

We got some spin kickers in this. And you got them. Was it machinist? I think that was the first. It's hard as fuck, man. Very hard. That's a good song. And then there's like the interluders of something.

It's just fucking shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what's up. Yeah. Hard's fuck, dude. That's that that's K.

That's K. That's K. And Costa who were like just coming. I knew. That's why. That's why he and I are friends. Yeah, it makes sense. We have that in a common.

We have Shentanghton, ch dun, tint, t'n common. I remember, sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead, Joe. Joe. We played Burning Fight, the Burning Fight Festival in Chicago at the Metro. Harmsway played one day very early on and then convicted, who toured eventually with Halfheart. Oh, yeah.

Played another day. And I remember this was like, Hav Hart was doing what, like well at this point. Like, have heart was like going full full steam. And we were talking to you guys and you were like, yeah, we're about to like do a world tour. Yeah.

And this, and this was like, this is initially like as soon as it was like, oh, like Pat's down to do an episode. This is what I was just dying to talk to you about. Is like, I saw someone had like the routing or something when we like looked at it.

And it was like the craziest thing I had ever seen. was like, oh, you guys are playing everywhere. Like you're actually playing Africa. Yeah. Sure enough, a few months later or a year later or whatever, the video comes out that you guys playing in front of school kids somewhere in Africa. And I know we're kind of skipping it ahead, but I don't know. I got to know.

Please tell me about how that happened and how that came to fruition, what that was like. Yeah, there's a good story there. Could I just add one one to that about about us in Chicago that at that very moment? Yeah. So like I obviously for international stuff, we'd have people who would, you know, book the shows. But I would have to contact them and like put trust in them and, you know, do those types of things that are kind of anxiety inducing, especially when you have like friends depending on you. And like you're handling their money essentially. And no one has money.

So it's not much more stressful. But I handled all of that. And I think I did a pretty good job. We never asked Bridge Nine for a single dollar. We were always like a head. And we always like, we came back being able to pay our rent and then have a little bit on the side. And I booked all of the flights, everything, got them right every single time. So we're setting up to do this crazy world tour.

You know, every single flight has to be linked. And we play a couple shows with Bain out to Burning Fight, the big 90s fest and reunion. And we're looking out at the routing. I was like, we're about to really dive in. We're not coming back for like seven months, essentially. Straight up, Kyle. It was like seven months.

Oh, I'm saying it. It was nuts. I probably went to the tour. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, like, I was like, why don't we have, like, before we, like, really, like, leave the States for the next.

next five or six months and then before we come back for like our final month and a half U.S. tour, we'll have a day off, you know, in Chicago. We never really got to see Chicago that much. And so like, at least that's what I thought it was in my head. So we get the burning final. I'm like, all right, so we get time off. And then Bain hits us up and they're like, hey, we're playing Indianapolis or somewhere in Indiana. I think just somewhere in Indiana. That's not, that's about like maybe like two hours outside of Chicago. You guys want to jump on. And we're like, yeah, fuck Chicago. Let's just play.

Let's jump on a kick. So like we played, we drive to this, you know, just kind of very random part of Indiana. Show is fucking great. And, you know, we're just driving back. And we pull over at a McDonald's in, you know. There we go. Now we're talking. And we're just in the parking lot, blasting machine head, just like, you know, letting freedom ring.

You know what I'm? You know what I'm saying? With a Baja blast? Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. I think it was about that time the Baja was going. Well, no, that's Taco Bell. We were at me down.

Yeah, but let freedom rain with the Baja blast. Oh, with the Baja blast. Oh, that's a good one. Never really did that. You know, is what it is. So, like, this is going to matter for the story. So here's the guy who's, like, booked all the tours, done a nice job, always gotten us on everywhere we need to be.

and then we get to the airport and I'm rolling up and like, man, because we knew we were breaking up too. We were like, this is our last final hurrah. And I was like, Is that announced at the time? It wasn't announced. And we were not planning,

we were planning on just simply not announcing it until like we were done with the tour and then we would just do something. I can explain why we ended up kind of announcing it. But so we, I get up, go right up to like the front desk at O'Hare. And I'm like, hey,

Yeah, I'm flying a, flying of Beijing. You know, I'm feeling like, you know, because I, like, didn't really come from a whole lot of money. And I'm, like, bringing my fucking band to, like, China. And I'm feeling like, fuck. Like, this isn't some school trip. My parents aren't paying for this. Like, I'm not on shitty vacation.

Like, this is like, I did, we did this. Yeah. And the lady goes, yeah, that flight left yesterday 24 hours ago. You got the date wrong. It was like, holy fucking shit. Are you serious? She's like, yeah. And then she goes, yeah, you're also at the wrong airline.

So like a double like fucking idiot. Like then she says to me, she goes, and luckily I went to the wrong place. She goes, here's what you need to do. You need to come up with a story that isn't just a demonstration of you being an idiot. You need to say that you were robbed. You need to really work the emotional heartstrings of the people at that airline. So it turns out we did that.

Oh, I had to, like, go up to the rest of the four guys and say, like, hey, so I really fucked up pretty bad this time. This might be like a big hole in our pocket here because I don't know if we're going to get refunded at all. So you just need to look extremely depressed as we walk over there. And why don't you hide all? What's that? You're telling me you lied?

Big time. Pat Flynn lies. Don't worry. I went right to confession when I got back to that. Okay. St. Francis. I'm going to say, man. Don't fly a new bedford.

So I go to the front desk and I tell them like, hey, we were robbed. We missed our flight. We're a band. This is all we have. And they're like, good people of O'Hare. We're like, we'll take care of you. And we were supposed to have like two different like fucking layovers or whatever. But anyway, we got a direct flight to Beijing.

Oh my goodness. Whoa. You made up time. Yeah. You Doc Browned. Well, we still, we were still behind. We basically missed, like the flight didn't leave too much later, but it was direct. But we missed the day.

When we got there, Paul, the kid from China who booked our mainland tour, I was like, oh, man, man, I'm really sorry that you guys are getting here today. Like, it's a real shame because yesterday, if you had been here on time, you would have been, we would have been at the Great Wall of China. And I was like, oh And I was like doing the math And I was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I was like At a fucking McDonald's In the middle of the country Blassing Machine Head

When I could have like been seeing like The fucking gray wall of China Well, some Some would prefer What you did Don't be wrong It was a good hangout session for sure But

Can I Can we pull up that tour routing While you're talking about it? You can't Yeah What year was that Pat? Do you remember? 2009

Yeah. So one of the reasons why we ended up announcing is because we played all of China. And like we weren't known at all in China. In fact, it was oddly enough like we played in Guangzhou, which was like a big industrial part of China back in the day. Like in the 1400s. And it still is pretty industrialized. But we didn't expect anyone to be there. And it was our biggest show.

We had like 400 people. They had never really even heard. hardcore before. Oh, it's just American music. It was awesome. Live American music. And it was amazing because like the bodily response, there was no code to how they,

they were responding like bodily. And we had played at some shows and they were kind of sparsely attended. So like, but this was like, it was kind of like tightly packed. It was like 400 or 500 people there, all tightly packed. And it was like entire crowd was having like a genuine response.

And we were like, holy shit if this is what this is what Guangzhou is like like Hong Kong is just going to be fucking insane because it's had more access to like you know like Western influence and there's a greater we're tall it's greater likelihood

and zero people showed up like absolute zero like it was it was definitely like at the top it was like the top of like some like giant hill and in Hong Kong so no one shows up and then so it wasn't like that much of a bummer if we would play and knowing that we're a breakup but then we in southeast Asia that those were like to this day some of the best shows

we've ever played and you know like more meaningful than some of like the quote unquote crazily attended shows yeah but uh we started feeling kind of bad because like people would be like you got to come back and these were kids who would like really kind of network and pull everything together with like pretty much very little that they had and also at odds with like a very kind of aggressive quasi-authoritarian state government that wasn't into it. So they'd be like, we can't wait for you to come back. And then like, I think after our Bangkok show, we were just like, this kind of feels like shit being like, yeah, see you next year.

And then- Yeah, we're lying. You lied again. Lied again. Don't worry. Father Paul heard heard this sin. But yeah, anyway, so we ended up saying, and it was, I'm glad we did because it kind of made for, I don't know, if you know something's dying,

you know, go ahead and check it out. It's just so crazy to me, though, that you guys think that it was dying at any point. When, like, you have heart is the example that people use of, like, going out on top, you know? That was part of, you know, we kind of, in Boston, that was just like, like, the norm. You know, 10-year-to-fight was at the top of the game. Broke up. In my eyes, top of the game, broke up. American Nightmare, pretty much at the top of the game, broke up.

Mental was at the top of the game. Brook up. But you were at a top of a game that had never been reached by anyone. Right. None of those fans had done this. Yeah. It was definitely, it was definitely cool, but we just, we had also seen, we were also lucky enough to kind of witness like the canaries going into the coal mine of reunions.

Ah, yes. And just sort of seeing like how that can go bad. And also like, you know, it was also like, 2009. You know, it was only really like, what, like the 30th year of hardcore, I guess. Yeah. So, like, wow. You know, there was. Crazy way to put it.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, there were some bands who were like, like, I remember like, I mean, it was like D.O.A. Like, like, the freeze played a show. I remember being like, they never broke up. Oh. Or like, some bands, I forget who, like, they just had kept playing and didn't stop. And it seemed so hard.

to do that right. So we were added on with like this weird tradition of just sort of leaving at the top of like your time. But also like I'll be full total transparency is we we could also read the writing on the wall. And we kind of had an understanding of like the trends of hardcore. And you know we played United Blood in 2008 and totally no, no, 2007 and just like ripped the house down. Yeah.

A year later, we play, and it was to fucking crickets. And how was the trapped under ice tent? Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. You know, the seven inch comes out. And we were, those are like our boys. And so, like, we, there was no beef there.

And we were at United Blood by way of a tour that we were doing with them. And I think like polar bear club or something like that. Oh, crazy tour. And it was a great tour, but I remember after that said, this is, I think spring 2009, we were like, hey, we did two fucking LPs. We've toured, we've toured like most of where the world offers hardcore shows. You know, and like also like, you know, maybe we want to do with some other music. And like, we were thinking like, what would a third LP look like? And like, it can either go extremely heavy or it can kind of go in the world of, I guess, like, where, like fiddlehead kind of is and okay and and that really i don't think had been totally figured out title fight was just kind of like getting off the ground and people were starting to be like hey maybe this isn't a pop punk band and this kind of right more and like this kind of sam miami world of like punk hardcore and so like they i think they just totally sort of figured that out but like you know so like

you know, we were all pretty, like, tight and close friends. And my best of best friends, Ryan and I, we were, we had been doing the band since day one. And, like, we were just, like, everyone's getting pissed off at each other all the time. So we're like, let's just save our friendships and just kind of call it a day. God, how huge. Incredibly, like, wise. I mean, self-aware to the point where, like, about things that you.

you can't even tell people. Isn't it funny too that like United Blood really was, I remember one, it was, I can't remember which year it was, 2009 or 10, where Foundation played and they had the, they had the set of the weekend. Probably 10, because nine was the bad seed set. Ah, yes.

Nine was incredible. That was the Cromag's, the Cromag Army. That one was fucking amazing. But yeah, I think you're right, Colin. But United Blood was like the fest was like the seal of approval on like, oh, this is the band. It was the band. It was the band.

It was the tastemaker of the year. It was like, you know, when I buy a new jacket. The overture. That becomes my meat for the year. United Blood is the jacket. So we got China, China, China, China, China, China, China, five Chinas, Manila, which I've heard is crazy, but that's not 2009. That's, you know.

There was a good ass fucking show. It wasn't like a million people there, but. I think there was probably like 300 people there. And it was just always fucking crazy. Like, yeah, it's nuts. When you're playing, when you're playing the music fans is when you, like just,

like we want to see some live music. That's when you really see that hardcore, maybe not for have heart because you motherfuckers were singing. But it's like only genre where people aren't fighting to be right in front of you. Right. Yeah. Generally. Now, you know,

for a fiddlehead, it's maybe you can't relate. because again motherfuckers be singing but it's it's like I was I just went to that after shock fest this weekend where it was just like kiss and shit played you know and to be able to

see the stage you have to you have to be ass to ankles with somebody you know totally yeah I'm just like I can remember each and every single the Singapore show is great I I was actually before we did this I almost I almost died in the shower before this

Did you slip? I almost slipped yesterday. It's fucked up, man. It was a curse of me. It was after a tubby time. And we had this like mat that our kids sit on when they're taking a tub. And I pulled it off. It's got like suction cups on it.

And I got right in. And it's like super slippery underneath the mat. I straight up almost, fuck, I stub my toe. It hurts like shit right now. But I bring that up because in Singapore is a good little story. Fucking asshole bandmates. We're crossing from Malaysia into Singapore, and I got these giant fucking merch bags dragging them. None of these dickheads are helping me out.

We have to go through the customs going left and right, left and right. They're just having a fucking great old time, you know, completely disregarding that, like, you know, I'm dragging them. And I got so fucking pissed in like a total child. I was like, I just like went to kick them the merch bed at full fucking fourth. because I thought it was just like hoodies. Turns out our drummers like the pedal, like the little metal plate, was exactly there. So it was like,

dunk right in it. My toe went completely black, like completely black. I didn't, I was like, oh, fuck, I think I really fucked it up. Oh, whatever. You have to no sell it. Yeah, you can't. I really instantly felt stupid because I was like trying to demonstrate like how pissed I was and I just like made a fool myself.

So then we get on the bus to go. further into Singapore, and I take my shoe off, my whole fucking toe is black. And this is like, I don't know, what is that like? That's just blood. Yeah, it's just immediate, deep bruising. Yeah. But if you look at the routing of it, that's like one of the first, it's like first of like, first of like, first of shows or something like that. Quite a, quite a few shows.

How long was it black? Luckily, it was only, it was only like that for about like two or three weeks, I would say. but like that's like two weeks that's just a nagging yeah yeah dude Colin in in Singapore they're so crazy about what you bring into the country that they have customs at the gate that you landed so you get off the plane and immediately at least when we went there straight into customs and they're they go through all your shit and that's when you get those cars it says like tobacco is punishable by death oh wow tobacco yeah yeah Oh yeah.

I can't go there. Gum is illegal. Gum is straight up. Gum? Okay. Now this is my kind of place. Streets are clean. I got a gum.

I got a gum phobia straight up, dude. What's the phobia? I feel like if it touches me, I'm going to get sick. Damn. Like if I'm peeing in a urinal and somebody spit gum in there, I'll go to a different urinal. Because what if it's slashes back at me? Yeah. I got somebody else's gum on me.

That's disgusting. I am, if I sound weird for anyone listening, I'm super sick. right now because I went to TwitchCon and I died. You went to the, and I don't mean to make this political because I don't mean it political, but there was a big controversy about TwitchCon not having

masks. So they made, so they changed it to be like heavily enforced. Mandatory, yep. And you're fucked up. You had to go and get like a wristband that showed you had a negative test or your vaccination. It's crazy, man, because I was fine. Surrounded by mutants. Did you hear

about, not to derail, but we didn't even talk about current events. Did you hear about the other controversy that happened? Controversity? Controversh?

There was like American Gladiators like foam pit where you would stand on a platform and knock someone off and a certain adult film star Adriana

Checkshashash can't remember her last name how you say it. Jumped off, landed, like jumped off, did a toe touch and just like fell on her ass

into the foam pit and broke her back in two places. laces and is in the hospital getting surgery. Wow. Like that we can't. It's too bad. Workers count, brother. Yeah, right. Yeah, but brutal. I got really sick. I slept for 17 hours the other night. I basically go to a super spreader event for a living every day. It's like 26 hundred kids in school. You really do, man. Or do you teach high school? Yeah. My stepdad is retiring from teaching high Oh, no kidding.

Yeah. I'm kind of looking forward to that. Yeah. Yeah. James, the, I'm sorry. You're good.

The singer in Harmesway is also a high school teacher. And he, he is. Yeah. And he often says, like, I've probably had COVID like five times. Like, there's no way.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of like, you're around all these, like the, what did he say is like, you'll get the emails of like potential. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Potential or whatever. Outbreak notice. Every day. Just like, yeah, what are you going to do? Well, let me ask you guys. Sorry, you go ahead. No, I was just like it was when it was like in full force, I was just like, it was a nice

little microcosm for like the rest of the world because I believe that basically everyone is a 16 year old. But like they would go in the hallways. No one have their fucking mask on. We'd have these arrows on the hallways floor for kids to follow. No one paid attention to that. It was just, you know, it was a. wonderful effort.

Yeah. But like nobody gave a shit. And I was like, there's no stopping what's coming. I'm just going to get this shit. So. Yeah. Is what it is. Have you got it more than once? I think I got it before everybody.

I think I got it at LDB. A lot of people think that. No, I got it that weekend. Oh, really? I'm convinced. He's convinced. Did Harnsway play that, that weekend of Fiddlehead play? Harmsway did not, but check this out.

my ex-girlfriend, her family is in Louisville. We were there for Christmas. Like, we were there. I saw those people, like, all the people who, like, do the show. I saw Brian, Garrison Taylor. Like, I saw them. I was deathly ill that whole week. Damn, yeah.

It, like. Yeah, I remember I came back from that and I felt weird. I went to the local walk-in. Persian care and I was like, you think I got that thing they're talking about? And she's like, that ain't real. No way. That's nothing. They don't even have a test for it.

And then like, boom, a month later, I was like, oh, fuck Tom Hanks has COVID. Oh, my God. That was, remember everybody was like, Tom fucking. Like, what do we do? What do we do? Like, the world needs to act on this because. Stop everything. And then within a year, he's being hit up for having like a child sex slave conspiracy

around him. Yep. The glove. Remember the gloves thing? Yeah. Is he on a drainer chrome? Is he one of those? Is he doing a drink?

Yeah. I got to get on that, man. At adrenachrome? I know a guy. I would not fucking hesitate. Let me ask you guys something. There are legendary merch items that kind of define generations of hardcore. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. 90s, what would that be? Probably the sick of it all shirt. Because everybody wanted one because. it said sick of it all and somebody would mark. Or like an Earth Crisis Basketball jersey.

Earth Crisis recycle shirt was big for a while. That was a big one. Cabal, just cabal gear. The Cabal in general. Let me tell you about guys about one. That defined part of my generation. Wait, there's one more though.

Right before. Yours come? No, right before that, the A.N. Zip up, dude. A.N. was big. The Bain Hoodie, of course. Yeah, I mean, like iconic everywhere. But let me tell you about one.

If you didn't have one of these, you were a fucking loser. The Havehart Boston Straight Edge hoodie. Who, generation defining. I can reveal what we rip that off of. Please. You look at, um, this is hard lore. This is exclusive. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to let a roll here. All right. Outspoken survival. Boom. Took it. Spit. pull on.

Yeah. Anyway, no, that we took the... Which one did you have, Bo? Which one of... Yeah, which color way?

I had a black. I had definitely a black one. I don't... Oh, mine was green. No shit. You guys had that shit. I would have the forest green, dude. I would have never guessed that you guys were,

we're riding. I was obsessed. Here's the... Let me say this. I've said this before, but I was all in on youth crew everything and anything adjacent, including like post hardcore DC stuff, rights of spring, embrace, like all that shit. And out of all the straight-ed shit that existed outside of like youth crew shit, Boston, like the early, like last ride's SSD, DYS, like all the Boston crew shit like blew my whole mind.

Yeah, that's good. there was like there was a zero like I had the fucking I have it right here the stand and fight edge hoodie like I couldn't you have the stand and fight I have the stand and fight one yes I got the long sleeve do you have the impact demo the band before I have was I have the impact demo or I had it at one point and I got it I got it through a distro that was related to John caution something with him oh I mean it was a bridge not I mean, you know, it was just like, I would go on that every fucking day and find someone's soul seek library and then figure out what we were listening to. This is a council of three of the last Edgman. Okay, the last real Edgman left. So, and that's what would that could get me, you know, be like, oh, they're a straight as band. All right. I'll check it out.

Yeah, yeah. It's still to this day. I feel that way. Okay. Like, oh, really? Okay. Let's check it out. Keep talking.

I want to find this hoodie. Keep talking. It's relevant. But anyway, so, you know, I didn't hear the seventh or anything. I came in at first LP. Oh, yeah, okay. So I come in at Shinting, shinting, shint, t, t, and I'm like, well, yeah, of course. Of course I want the hoodie.

Glad, glad you enjoyed. That was, I'm trying to think, like, what, what kind of explained those, like, those moves? It was definitely K, but, like, I felt like we had, like, we had, like, a little bit of a past, to do that because if you look at some early bain songs they're they're they're they're heavy as fuck hard stuff for sure they like them many times i know the fucking disgog back and forth yeah so i felt like we could you know because i was like pretty you know melodic hardcore in my eyes kind of guy and um but like you know they just they offered the green light and uh i didn't think that we were going to really burn too many people.

And also just kind of gave us something new to do. That, well, that, and like, this is something I meant to ask you earlier. Like, Boston was kind of like the home of scary guys. Big time, yeah. And you're, like, so, like, I have to imagine they hear shinting, shinting, and they're like, yo, maybe we're down with half-heart. Maybe these are, these local boys are our boys, you know. We had, you know, there's the whole era of Boston hardcore that people kind of overlooked, but also like kind of secretly rip off.

Cast Iron Hike has like, some of the best riffs out there, in my opinion. Reach for the floor. Come on now. You know what I'm talking about? You cast iron. Castor and Hight, come on. You know, I'm the only living witness. I took the whole bag from, you know? Well, like, I always saw Blacklist was kind of taking an only living witness.

They were admittedly. Canonized. Canonized is pro-mortal form. I never, I like put that together recently. Yeah, it is. That was the tour that we did, right? Yeah. Couldn't find the hoodie must be somewhere else. Sorry. But I bought it off of wrench the day that I met, caution, and James from Harmes-Way. So it was a very... The Boston Stratage hoodie? Very important. The stand-and-fight one.

Oh, the stand-and-fight one. Well, let me... Well, read the Boston Strategy. You know, just in all transparency. eventually sold it for hundreds of dollars. So you got that going for you too. You know, the market is hot. Oh, the market I've never received from. Well, you know, you benefit the first wave. The second wave, that's mine.

The cheapest wave. Well, that's, but that's the problem. And that's why now we're trying to course correct that. Yeah. Everything in the world is going up. Why shouldn't we? Whoa, Big Bo's best. Big Boas back.

In, I think it was 2008. The tour you talk about? Yeah, it must have been, right? Because you guys were breaking up, right? Well, no, no. We weren't breaking up yet. Oh, was it on this tour? Shit.

The Blacklisted Ceremony, Havehart, let down tour. And you guys were on a string of those shows, right? We were on like a week, I think. Yeah. I remember we were. with you guys, I think it was like the first show that convicted played. You were playing with Convicted, right?

Yeah. The first show we played with, I think it was in somewhere, Madison, Wisconsin, maybe. Yes, it was Madison, yep. It was the day after Obama had been elected. Wow. That's right. And his acceptance speech was in Grand Park in Chicago, right here. Yeah.

Right down the road. I got a great story for hard, for hard Lord. Wait. That's here. So the day after, I think it's like two days after we were in Chicago, I remember the show, it was a great show, played a great gig. And the next morning, you know, the spirit of Chicago, and the spirit of the country was pretty good. Riding high. Right and high.

Change. Hope. I'd like to think that even the fucking Klansmen were like, it's kind of cool. well he's all right I mean he's I don't want to impersonate a clansman I don't want to just make it sound bad and you're fine making it dumb

it was I just I remember Charlie at the show in Madison I think it was somewhere in Wisconsin but I remember him just being like he was like hey we gotta we gotta think about what the hell just happened here what it's what it means for the country and arguably the world like yeah you know it was like

it was really amazing and I um you know You know, just, everyone was, everyone was like, but then you're, then we were in Chicago. And so the spirit, you know, of course, you know, with Barry, you know, being a senator in Chicago in Illinois and whatnot. And so the spirit was like, you know, that was like crown zero for, you know, celebration. Yeah. For good vibes.

Yeah. So we had also come out of on that tour. The previous summer, we'd spend a lot of time in the Northwest. I'd like to give context for my stories, but I figured this is the podcast to do that. You're doing so good. Don't worry. You're a natural, hard-thaler. So we...

Hard-lora storian. The year and a half prior, we would, when we would go to the Northwest, you know, because it's like north of San Francisco, there's fucking nothing until you get to Portland. And even in Portland, there was a little shot then, too, in the early 2000s. So, like, when we would play in the Northwest, it would be like four shows we play. We play, like, we play Portland, Seattle, somewhere else in Washington, and then... Tacoma. um yeah maybe tacoma or maybe spokane or and then we would do a vancouver show yeah but because everything

was like kind of close by we would stay at like one person's house in seattle isn't that the best having a home base it is the weekend for almost like a week actually and our friend aaron who was was that been black breath i think he was in yeah yeah um he worked at the whole foods and he had informed us that at Whole Foods, you can just sort of like take things and no one's going to say anything. Oh my God. Pat Flynn lies. Boy can you. And steals. Yeah. You ever cheated on a test or anything? I did. My father was my teacher too. He caught me red-handed. Oh my God. You lie cheating steel? Pat Flynn tells all tonight. This is huge stuff for me. This is whiskey in this guy. This isn't apple juice. It's apple juice. apple juice at night would be very risky for me just so you know it's

Harper? What? Harper or? No. It's a diuretic, brother. Are you pissed? I'm a diuretic all over this motherfucker. I didn't even think about that.

I just, I got two kids. It's around, you know. Yeah. Isn't that why you give them applesau so they'll shit themselves? I should know this stuff with two children at this point, but I don't. I got you covered, brother. Yeah. So, guy I know.

Go to Colin. Yeah, with any of your child. Yeah, watch what happens when I eat applesauce. I'll pass on that one. But so we spent like that summer of 2008, I guess, we spent the entire week just like taking food from whole foods. So you fast forward, it's like three or four days after Barry's election. We're in Chicago.

Nothing. Everything's free, you know, especially at the, Whole Foods. So, you know, I walk in, I'm like, all right, this place is probably cool. So I go into the rotisserie chicken section, and I just, I just took it. And I walk, and I walk on out. And I get out and just head into the van. And I hear, excuse me, sir. And I turn around. I'm like, oh, shit. Turn around. He goes, hey, uh, you get a receipt for that. And I just said, no. Oh, because I stole it. He goes, you're going to have to come with me.

And so he brings me to the back. And I'm like, oh. See, yeah, see, you lied and you cheated and you stole. But, like, that's still a good person. Yeah, yeah, right. Well, gal darn it, you cut me. Which way to jail? Here my hands.

So he turns, he turns. So he brings me to the back. And there's this, like, He's with some lady and, like, they're, you know, getting my info down. And they're, like, taking my name and they, like, take a picture of me and stuff on, like, a Polaroid camera. And I was like, hey, listen, like, I'm, like, looking at the chicken. And I'm like, hey, can I, like, you know, they first they say to me, like, hey,

you're not allowed to come in any Whole Foods in the Midwest region of this country. And kind of like an asshole, I was like. Do you think you could kind of define Midwest to me because it's kind of an ambiguous term? Sometimes people say Western PA's Midwest. I just don't want to go into one and didn't get the news that I'm not allowed. And they're just like, shut the fuck up. And so like, and then I say it, I'm like, hey, listen, I'm on tour. I don't really have much money.

But I can afford that chicken. I'll be honest with you. It looks delicious. Can I buy it? And they're like, no. So then like we have to run a walk you out. I'm like, oh my God. This is just humiliating.

It's a walk me out to the van without a chicken. Then I'm just about to get in the van and they go, and they go, hey. And I turn around. They go, next time, just ask. And then they gave me the chicken. Full rotisserie ate the whole thing. Just ask. Hope.

I'm going to start asking. Can I have this? Can I just have that? I wonder if it was the one I worked at. Could you imagine? It was right downtown. I mean, sure there's a lot of them. But it was like,

I mean, if it's South Loop, could you see like the skyline? Like was Sears Tower right there? Yeah, like you know the parking, like the round parking lot where you can kind of see the car?

You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. All the things of Chicago, that thing stands out my mind. You worked there? That's the one you worked at, Beau. It sounds like the South Loop one.

That was the one where. That's the one you warmed up the fish at. Real nice. Colin's got this bit going where he's telling people I fucked fish. I didn't fuck. I just know, don't worry about it, man.

I didn't do that. Warmed up the fish. Damn. We'll see. I have a story. So we did that. So we hopped on this crazy tour. Have Heart Ceremony Blacklisted, Letdown, Convicted.

And I feel like we're forgetting a band. I can't remember. I think that was it. Okay. And this was all also. It was like prime every band. and being, like, all of those bands being huge. Yeah, the, oh, yeah, big time.

It was good. It was good. It was very good. I wouldn't say letdown was like killing it. No, but the three, the three main draws were just like, could easily headline their own show to kill. Yeah, yeah. Letdown was, that was about a nice thing you did for them, you know?

Bring them out. We used to, we used to, so Bob saying for letdown and on a harm's way, and I've talked to him about this. so it's like not weird or anything, but on a post on Bridge 9, his bridge 9 name was Bob Down, like Bob X down or something. And in reference to a new Harmsway song

or whatever had come out, he just said, not into it. So he became within our friend group, Bob Down, not into it. Like always. Not into it. Just not into it.

Yeah. And Madison, I remember, and all the shows were like good. we borrowed this van from this this dude who was just a fucking dummy who drove with us he tried to convince us that the the van had something wrong with it so you couldn't go over 55 okay so the first thing that happens is is when drew who drummed for convicted gets and later play bass and nachos gets behind the wheel he floors this fucking thing he's doing 80 yeah so we can't really figure out what's going on

on and all the stuff. Like a reverse speed situation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we parked somewhere outside of, Pittsburgh. We played the Roboto Project. I remember, yeah. That was a really good show.

That was a tight, tight one, yeah. Very tight, but very, like, crazy. And Charlie got food poisoning. The van got towed all in the same morning. So Drew. Because he went 85, dude, got toad. They just parked.

in the wrong spot. Drew, this is in, Colin, Drew in the dummy and the girl who we were saying with drove to the impound, got there, he realized he forgot the keys. They drove back. It was a half hour each way. Got back to where we were and Charlie's like sick. Reaches in his hoodie pocket, pulls out the keys that he had within the whole time.

They drive a half hour back only to find out that he doesn't have a license, didn't have the title, and wasn't insured. and that's why he didn't want us to go over 55. Excellently timed. Wow. Then, we jumped off in Syracuse. That was the end. It was either Albany or Syracuse, and the van fucking died.

Do you remember that? I have vague memories of you guys just kind of eating shit a lot. Yeah, we did. You know, Blacklist had a lot of van trouble, too. I remember we played somewhere in the... somewhere in Kansas or something like that. It was winter. It was like a winner-ish tour, too.

Nate, it was just a real beat moment. A couple of low points for them on that tour. We had zero van trouble. We were just having a great. You got a blessed from the top, Roman Catholic. They had you cover, man. For you, you confess every time you'd love for. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, every state, every town's got themselves a good old Catholic. church in there. I got one right here. Just 20 feet away. We clean up every morning. But I got a, I remember that Syracuse show. I don't know if you remember it, but I remember it being fucking crazy. The memory in my mind was like, it was totally packed and it was unbelievable.

It was like the Polish hall. Yeah. Or something. It was literally called like the Polish Sports Hall. Yeah. And I've played there other times, too, on other tours. I can't really remember what. But there was 600 people in like a gymnasium.

That wasn't. Some of those ceremony sets on that tour, to this day, I've just, you know, like it's, it's, it's so cool seeing everything pop off or turnstile. You know, I've seen like enormous shows, but like, man, some of those fucking ceremony shows were the craziest shit I've ever seen. It's enormous reactions at a reasonable size show now that where the reactions don't even compare. Yeah. We played Detroit at the majestic upstairs. And during ceremony, they pulled down the projector screen that covered the entire front of the stage. And Anthony just walked around playing just guitar by himself in front of a white screen.

And like, I've thought about that visual for a. a decade now because it's like it was perfect and it was so fucking funny and like ahead of their time. Very much so. Yeah, they've always had their cool performance. It was great.

But they haven't played a small little music school in East Rand. That's exactly where I wanted to come back to well said. So please bring us back to so just real quick. I don't need to go through, we don't need to go through the whole routing.

But after you leave... So second LP is way released by this time, right? Way in terms of like a year prior. It came out in 2008 and then December 2009 we're saying, Say, La Vie. It was kind of crazy in hindsight. It's crazy. Like a year after it, you know?

You guys were crazy. I've been saying this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what we were thinking. You were thinking, you know, this is what our, we're, we're the, we're the gods of this shit. And we want to stay the gods of this shit. Well, doing, there's nothing cooler than doing something exactly how you want it done.

Yeah, yeah. And we, like, they're, we felt right about it. And, um, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the, here's some fun little, uh, we, we had a lot of losses in the band, a lot of fails. It's a lot of real brick, brick moments. So here's some more context for the East Train thing. And I'll get to the South. East Rain High School is the name of the school that we played in Johannesburg, South Africa. But so like, I'll be quick with the context.

But like our first European tour was a scene out of band of brothers. And it was just, it was terrible. It was the battle of the bulge. It was in the winter. No one showed up to our shows. We are all one great band of brothers on this pot. This was like we didn't have our first LP out. We were writing it.

Me and my best friend, we was in the band. We were like beefing each other. I remember there was this one moment where I was like, I just kind of like left the venue because, you know, we had like a little tiny argument. And I walked into this like random snowy Austrian town. And there was just like a very well-dressed man, begging for money

and I was like this is the bottom and then like I found it why is this guy was so incredibly well dressed and begging for money I don't is

what's the way of the world here next day van breaks down the one person one euro guy we liked was like he was going to come with us on the rest of the tour like throughout Poland

he was like I'm leaving and he left into the middle of a blizzard we never sung again and oh no so then like but then we put out our LP

and we go to to our second European tour. And it was just us and it was in the winter. And again, it was just us. And it was in the winter where most bands don't really typically tour in Europe. And we fucking killed it. We sold out of all of our merch within like three shows

out of like eight shows. And we brought a fucking shit ton too, but not too much. So we look at that perspective and we're like, all right, cool. We're gonna fucking destroy next time, you know, merch wise when we go back to Europe. The second time we went back to Europe, it was with Bain and a couple of the shows were some Gorilla Biscuit reunions. We were like, and it was like a month and a half long. We were using, I was doing the lodge.

It was like one of the few times I messed up with the merch orders. But so I'm thinking, you know, like we killed it on an eight-day tour in Europe in the middle of the winter when, you know, no one's going to shows. Ran out of Merchant three days. Now the record's really set in. Our fan base must have only grown from now. Plus, we're going to be with Bain, and we're doing GV reunion shows. We're going to, we got to order fucking mountains of merch. Absolutely.

And boy, we did. We had 15 body bags completely fucking filled with merch. Holy shit. Each one weighed 100 pounds. I packed every single one of them the night before we left for tour. Every single one. Each one weighed 100 pounds, dragged them all down. So that costs $1,000 to get.

to Europe. Oh, here's a fun little clincher. We showed up to airport and they're overwhelmed. They're literally like, what the fuck is this? They had never seen anything like that before and it was getting late. And the lady just said, whatever. And she just gave it to us for free. Unbelievable.

I know. But you might think, you guys, I might be starting going to fucking Catholic Church, brother. I might start asking for forgiveness. I got to be clear. I haven't really been much of it, just for the listeners out there. geographically though yeah oh yeah choice

we got it's just part of it but um so so you might think that that's domination domination like with an intro like that for this merch tour you're thinking

oh this is going to be a wonderful story this is it this was like the most epic fail it's we play the first show of the tour and I'm looking at the numbers and I'm like well this ain't right

and I didn't realize on that first tour we had no competition. It was just us. People are buying Bain merch. And then I'm also noticing that, like, I didn't realize that we sold a lot because no one was touring in the window, so no one had spent money recently on other shows or festivals.

This is summer? This is summer. Summer 2007. Everybody is there. We got, we ordered, like, it was like $15,000, $20,000 worth of merchandise. And I was like, holy fucking shit. No one. And we had this one design, like a lot.

buying on the brown long long i remember the brown longslee for sure i feel like i've seen it in europe and i was like that thing was crazy yeah yeah you know it was a little bit of the crazy looking thing is what you what europe ends up buying yeah well not this time around they were not fucking having it so sorry and every show's going by and i'm like fuck and i'm like you know what i i started like doing like things like all right don't sell the shirt that's selling only sell this so they'll be forced to buy this. We have to get rid of these long sleeves. And euros will just, no, I don't. This shirt is shit. This shirt is shit. Even in size, it's shit. You know what the, you know what the crazy move that I don't think I've ever even talked about on the show with European

doing merchant Europe is when like you have a long sleeve and a short sleeve. They'll ask for the long sleeve in short sleeve form and the short sleeve. And they'll be like, do you Like, do you have this in longslee? Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm good. Yeah, sorry. Well, this is the...

Come back. Cut them off. So, like, that whole tour goes by, and it must have been, like, on those long sleeves alone, like a, I don't know, $7,000 loss. I know, because it was long sleeve, had, like, a print on the side, the front of the back, multiple colors. I was just like an idiot. It's completely fucked that one up.

That summer 2007, we come back to Europe, like, six or seven more times, rather if like one-offs or for like week-long tours or for full-length tours. And we left them in Slovenia. A roadie just took them into Slovenia. And each of those times we came back, like she couldn't like bring like seven merch bags herself

and her car. And like, oh, fuck. So then it's like the last tour before we go to South Africa, it's our last European tour. Like we have to get these merch bags. And even on that last tour, we're announcing we're breaking up,

The shows are like totally sold out, like everywhere going. We still couldn't fucking sell any of those shirts. We're like bits and pieces. So we get down to like having like maybe like three or four of these completely full merch bags. We get to South Africa and like we're like we're playing these tiny shows and like, you know, like we finished all the shows that we were scheduled to play and then we had like two or three days off. and I say to the dude you know booking the show like you know South Africa is like

the history's fucking crazy like you know the Dutch go there they inhabit it for like 150 200 years and then the British come in and kick out the Dutch and then like but by that point it's like you have like these white Europeans who are

ancestors of white Europeans who are like we're fucking from here yeah yeah and then like yeah you have the indigenous Africans are like, don't you're fucking not. Double colonization. And it's so crazy. So like, you know, and then within like our lifetime, it was like this hardcore, part

to hide separate racial segregation system, like extremely violent. So like it ain't like like in this country, it ain't like they've like figured shit out. So like we played two white kids in in South Africa. And I remember I was just, we were. The shows were cool. And, like, the kids that we played to were like, they were really, really anti-racist kids. They were, like, on the right side of things

and just trying to figure things out and do right by the world. Of course. And it was cool. But I was just sort of saying, I was like, you know, it would be interesting to say that, like, you know, when people ask, like, oh, how is South Africa? I'm like, you know, it was cool,

but we played to zero black people on the continent of Africa. Like, and so the dude who was like, organize their shows. He's like, he's like, I understand what you mean. And he explains the history of the racial segregation and whatnot. And I was like, I totally get it. I'm not complaining. I'm just, you know, that's a feature of this of this country. And he goes, you know what we can do. My next door neighbor is a principal at, like, in all black music school. This is all I've ever wanted to know about. This is a fat. I just need you to know. The world is burning. Yeah. So like, so he's like, you know, here's what we can do. Like, I can give him a call.

And you can, you know, I'll talk to him to see what he says. And so he comes back and says like, why don't you guys like kind of come by the school and we'll meet you in person. And we would have had still like two more days off after this. And then so like, then the principal will make decision, you know, if he thinks it's right, because it's the school and like, you know, maybe you could play there, playing a classroom. It's like cross-cultural connections. So we meet, we go into this like tiny little classroom, like a very tiny tiny,

classroom and we meet these like orchestra players jazz musicians and they're just like we're seeing them playing we're like you know they're like real fucking musicians not like five assholes who can like play power chords power chords yeah like so like you know we're like wow like you guys are pretty cool and so he the kid tells us like oh the principal's like yeah you guys come in just you know play a song in a classroom and it'd be like a nice human moment here of just exchanging like music one side of music to the other. It's like, oh, that's pretty cool. So then we show up the next day, and they bring us in an auditorium,

and there's like, you know, like a hundred chairs set up, and there's like kind of a big stage. And I'm like, oh, well, that's ain't a tiny little classroom. This evolves. Yeah. It looks like there's an audience, too. This ain't what I signed up for. but so then their school band plays and we were to play after them and like I'll basically at this

point in my life like I'll go on out like fiddlehead's opening for turnstile in one of the their Boston gig and after this experience I would happily play after turn style as with any of my bands because I've already dealt with this experience having to play after this band from the Eastern Music School in South Africa. Like it ain't going to be harder than that. I'm watching them. I mean, I'm sure we've all been there where we're like watching the band playing before. And we're like, oh, fucking fuck.

This is just going to suck so much cock. Like we're in the wrong place. Let's just leave right now. No one's even going to watch. It's going to be humiliating. So like that's how I'm feeling watching this band play. But it had the added tone of this kind of like ignorant, white American man, you know, who's like, all right, like, well, let's show you how it's really done.

Like, yeah, they had all these terrible tones that I'm like completely aware of. And I'm like, I just can't bear it. And they're going to, they're going to sit there and they're going to fucking laugh at us. And they're going to be like, this band of idiots fucking suck. Because when their band was playing, it was real jazz. Yeah. And like, I don't know if you've ever been to like a real jazz show. But the first time I went to like a real jazz show in Boston.

and it reminded me the first time I went to a hardcore show because there was a there was a coded language people were like yeah and like clapping at a time I didn't understand why they're clapping like when at my first hardcore show was like I can't believe people are singing along to this isn't like a mainstream radio band so it was like this whole like culture and like it's all this improv stuff one person takes the lead walked it back and you pass it off and it's unspoken it's far more complex is then in I think what we do in hardcore I wouldn't even go near it because like I just like you just have to be totally immersed in it. And this is what these like 10th graders are doing. No problem. And then also our drummer, our actual drummer who probably could play with them because he's so skilled and like, you know,

classically trained wasn't with us. And we had a filling who was just doing his best. Mr. Champ? Was that Champ? No, it was Alex Gadbury. Oh, not Champ. He was playing in Shipwreck.

Oh, okay. So fucking Alex He's doing it And he did a fine job So then we get on stage And I'm like Oh my God

And it was cool And next thing we know Kids are like They're out of their chairs They're screaming They're like And like at one point Or one of our songs

Like shouted out their high school And they all shot up Out of their chairs They're taking their red sweaters And they're swinging it around If you watch the video footage One kid is like Actually scam

banking another like authentic like bodily response to hardcore and what and you name and so then and then at one point they're like crowd surfing and the principal is just there with his arms crossed just being like what the fuck that I like allow here the kids are like totally totally just like great raging and it was it was it was totally great and then got rid of we just gave all like the three bags worth of shirts to those kids and they were like fuck yes they're They were like, I want what. It was like the perfect. It was like the perfect.

It was the perfect. And I, I, I, this one kid, um, forget his name, shit. Ah, he goes, he goes, tell Obama, I said hello. I was like, I will. I'll do my best. And I, I, I do this day. I said, if I ever meet, if I ever meet that son of a bitch, I'll tell him, this kid in South Africa wanted me to tell you hello.

And he's probably like 40 now, but nonetheless, though. living up to my promise. It was one of, he probably lives in fucking Alabama now. One of my favorite, uh, aspects about the video, which we'll,

we'll have in the, in the YouTube video for this is that like, you guys aren't, you're not taking it super seriously, but you're also not like laughing it off. Like it's not a big deal. Yeah. Yeah.

Like you're all, all of you guys on stage are very into it and are just like enjoying the moment. Yeah. And I think that that's a really unique aspect of what, um, even the message of what have heart was. Yeah.

Yeah. That's like, that's a good observation. We, we, you know, it would have been really easy to be like, well,

this is a fucking joke. And I probably wouldn't have translated really well to them. They would have been like, and there was no way that we could with, with what they, they, they presented to us. It was,

uh, you know, and how do you not have fun? Yeah. That's so cool. It was great. It was, but me and, like, my best friend, J.D., he was the singer of Shipwreck. They were on that tour of this.

And I should say that they went to South Africa a year before. And they were the, like, they were the ones who kind of reported, like, you guys need to go. You should do it. Wow. They were the ones. When they got to South Africa, they were the ones who were, wait a minute, CDC was here before. What the fuck? CDC.

CDC was here, flags. CDC's going to play on the moon soon. Are they still around? I don't know. You could be their new singer, probably. They've had quite a few. Had a few. So let's fast forward and let's talk about

potentially the largest show that has the largest hardcore show that's ever happened. There's a lot in between there, bro. We got Wolf Whistle. Fuck. Not a lot of tour stories for that band. Yeah, all right. I remember what the shirt was new,

the typo was on purpose, right? That was the game. Oh, yeah, Wolf Wittsley, new bed fraud, heart door. Bed fraud, yeah, I like that. Yeah, that's, that's Trevor Vaughn's brain. That was a good one. You got, you were coming out like,

yeah, I wasn't having her heart, but now I'm, now I'm silly, you know? Now I'm having a good time. Yeah, now I'm having fun. That was pretty much, that was, that was, that was a little conscious. You know, I just let Trevor run, run the deal, but yeah, you know,

I contain multitudes. You can be serious. When did you discover that you could do the fiddlehead voice? Like, where did that kind of come from? I don't know. You know what was a little bit of an inspiration for me was Brendan Radigan, the rival mob singer. You know, he's...

Dude, he is... Very talented. He's next level. He's got pipes. And he... He did this band called Lovely Lads before Rival Mob. And he's from New Bedford area. And, you know, I grew up watching him.

Just great vocalist could scream like no one else. And then he did this kind of like, kind of like oi-ish band, lovely lads. And I was like, oh, damn, he's like kind of kind of like singing. And he and my now wife lived together at one point in Boston. And I can't. came home one day and he was blasting ignite uh he was singing like zoli like like actually hitting the notes and i was like oh my god and i what i discovered is that i think that he kind of came into his world of singing by way of modeling zoli from ignite little side note but dude that's unreal

but i could be wrong don't quote me on that one i only said it on the public record but i i remember seeing him i was like oh you know what like i appreciate his daringness and like you know he's just putting himself out there a little bit and he's making it work and uh i don't know if you ever listen to magic circle but he's just uh i was like got it man like you can i i did do a i recently went to a vocal coach just because i was curious i was like i'll just kind of i just want to like not blow out my voice whatever yeah like yeah and i was told like you know if you learn like two different strategies, you know, you'll be pretty good. And my vocal coach actually got me to be sounding like Robert Plant. Here in my office, I was doing it over Zoom. And it's really interesting.

If you just learn a couple techniques, you can really project yourself. But I would say Brendan was, you know, he kind of just helped me go like, ah, you know, you don't have to just do just a screaming thing. And also, who fucking gives a shit? Like, you know, so I, you know, my sister's love for like really good 90s indie rock. yeah put me in a way of just sort of want to do it but i also like you know i'm i'm a member of the core at heart so you know uh you know bands in that world specifically sam i am was always um really super influential on me with with fiddlehead and i just uh that's all sam i am and i'd say arches of loaf have been kind of like the two things that i've just wanted to kind of

chase after um interesting and thus you now have the distinct rare honor of being like the guy in these two very different bands who are like fiddlehead is getting right up there with the heart brother it's cool it it's cool but i everything with philett's just gravy like no one stress no pressure absolutely fucking nothing after like after have war like like you know like some of the shit talking on have war was pretty intense sometimes and it really was In California, a lot of it, there was kind of a whole, it was like, it was like, to a lot of people, it was like there's hardcore kids and then there's have hard kids. Yeah.

It was crazy. It was very real thing. Yeah, totally. I remember just being like, what the, and it was kind of quick and out of nowhere. And like, so, and I remember being like, you know, we're not posers. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like, yeah. Come on.

So, but like, and so I remember I kind of got lost and just like kind of watching some of that shit. And I was like, I don't give a fucking fuck. Like I cannot live my life, you know, crew. All I really want to, I love making music with friends and like hanging out in the process of it. So I just like, you know, and after that, I just sort of like, anything I do is just like, I'm never going to try and like make it. You know, that just sort of seemed like death. And because like not to have art Was ever trying to make it for a moment

I was like you know we were pushing I think with our second record I really wanted it to kind of like stick and outdo our first record and Yeah, that's where I kind of like kind of got into a bad headspace and was like I think giving a shit A little bit too much of a shit about what people thought but it was a real bad time What happens with art man? Totally and it was distracting and it got in the way of kind of just the process of enjoying it and the point yeah Totally. And so everything after that, like, you know, like prior to, prior to hardcore, you know, like, my love for history and teaching is just like, I'd say it's probably equal level with hardcore. So, and the money in the, in the hardcore world ain't exactly, it ain't amazing.

But teaching now that. There you. No, you're rolling in it. When you pair them at the same time, it's probably pretty sick. It helps. And the schedules work out pretty well. I'm not like, I'm not fucking up too much. And I also like, I just like, my brain turns to mush in like three seconds on the road.

I just eat terribly. I go from like having a pretty good, healthy diet to just being like, all right, give me three Baja bless and a jalupa. You know, just... You're speaking in the language of the show now. That seems like a real... We'll get back to all the other... The band, yeah. But...

I want to talk to you briefly about history, too. But... We'll get to history. Colin. Plenty of time. What do you like to eat on tour? On the road? Yeah, what's your go-to, man?

What are your big ones where you're like... If I'm conscientious, you could ask anybody in Fiddlehead, there's typically like a fucking mound. of pistachio shells if I'm like like it's kind of like a I don't know like an alcoholic's like method way if not like you know binging and just relapsing I'll just like I'll just take pistachios because and just just eat them like an animal like I can't if you watch me in the van I am constantly constantly eating there's your metabolism is rocking pretty much I guess I don't really kind of

I don't really think about it but like I'm just fatty food food of pistachio. Yeah, yeah. Very high fat content. No, saturated fats. I always said if I won the lottery, the first thing I'd buy

is one of them bags of pistachios without the shells. Oh. Shellless. Someday, dude. Stripped already. Just for me. I like working for it.

But, you know, but eventually what will happen after the first hour is I'll finish the bag and I'll just be like, all right, got to take a piss break. Let me get this.

You know, we hit up a Boston market. Oh. Market? Nobody ever talks about Boston. Is that the first mention of Boston Market on the show? I think it is, man. We talked about it in the fast food one because we're both fans.

Little known fact before it was Boston Market. It was known as Boston Chicken. Yeah. Good job there. C-THC, brother. I was there. That's right. I've been to Boston Chicken.

You know, I just love the bell, man. If you, like, I look at that menu and I'm like, just anything. Just throw a dart, you know, put it in. You're going to come back on the show. This is that. It's just like, you're a friend of the show now. This is really solidified. I'm happy.

I'm happy. Like, listen, my only friend at work left to school. I ain't got no one to fucking talk to. My wife, love her to death. She's busy raising our children. No time to talk to me. You bring me on any time. I'll be here.

What's your Taco Bell order? Are you a meetman? I think you see you the rotissory chicken story okay yeah yeah I uh the the the context on why meat is really um I was watching the no more video in high school with Ryan Houdon and uh we had ordered a party pack from Domino's pepperoni pizza but more specifically um buffalo chicken wings from Domino's before the quality kind of went down I think but uh so anyway um watching the No More video for the first time. Huge.

And I'm like, you know, this is the moment. I really truly believe that, like, had we not order that party pack and I just watched the video, I would have been moved into vegetarianism, but I wasn't. Because I was eating delicious buffalo wings. Dude, somewhere, somewhere Ray or Porcel just... It's their fault.

They felt it in the air, what you just said. It's a great video. I don't know if you were watched it, but like, oh, of course I've watched it, dude. Of course.

It's really just so refreshing. Are you kidding me? The high five, the, don't do it. Headshake, man. Yeah. It's so refreshing.

Chasing after the, the meat truck? Like, what even is that? Couldn't be meat. Yeah, I'll chase after the meat truck. Please.

Stop. A friend of mine has a, like, recording of the make, like, of them filming the video. Oh, of the live?

It's like, Yeah, the double of the live set. Yeah, that thing's fucking awesome. They're like, okay, we're going to play it again. It's so fucking bad. It's really rare that we find, you know, an elder edgeman. I mean that in a complimentary way. I take it in.

Yeah. The elder edgeman who's not vegan is just so awesome. It's hard. We're exceptionally rare. But the Taco Bell order, more importantly, is... Most importantly. It's been fucked up. To be perfectly honest, I don't know what TB was thinking over the last few years,

but they got rid of the double-decker, which was my number one go-to. Big huge loss for the community. And then they snag the Mexican pizza. And I like to, I'm real glad that they listened. And now it's back. I actually had one the other day, just on two days ago. How about that? It was delicious.

The toasted cheddar chalupa is also. gone. And it was outstanding. So good. It was outstanding. That's how they keep the wheels. That's how they keep themselves in the conversation, you know? They took the McRibb formula and then they said, we're going to do this once a week with something else. Yeah. That's it. Dude, when nacho fries come back, it's a holiday. It's a whole thing. Yeah. They have no business being that good. No biz. I'm into the caserito, but if I get it, it's like the only thing I get because it kind of knocks me out. Wow.

It's pretty big. Pretty heavy. I'm a $20 minimum order. Oh, yeah. There was a guy recently ordered one of everything. Do you hear you see that? Some dude who went to Taco Bell and ordered one of everything. And it was like $100 or something like that.

That was it. It was like $100. And then they buried him out back. Yeah, I guess, you know, we can talk about the big half hour. Well, we can get, I mean, Fiddlehead more is, is, is, is, is, is, ever evolving, you know? So maybe that's episode two. We could break up tomorrow and I'd be like, that was a good run.

You did a lot. We've played less than 100 shows. I think we've played 70-ish shows, tops, over the course of like 10 years. But the percentage of those that are like incredible shows has to be. That's been good. You know, for the first like the first couple years, like that band was not. expected people to go into get get into we were yeah we had one I think this speaks to the power of like um like propaganda to be perfectly honest like sure uh and just people like watching video like

zero people were going off and also I think it speaks to like someone needs to model activity for whenever we the record was out for like months and people come to our shows and they'd be like nodding their heads like, oh, this is cool. And we played this one show in L.A. It was like basically sold out, and everyone stood there and was like nodding their heads. And that was the entire vibe for the entirety of the band of the point. And I was like, this is fucking great.

And I guess this is just sort of what happens to music that doesn't have explicit, like, mosh parts. And the next day, we played the program. And it was like tightly packed. And there was literally five kids who knew the words, but everyone was like tightly packed and we had two VHS cameras which always make things

look way more insane. Looks so cool, yeah. Like, and it's not it's not like professionally Mike. I've said this to Sunny. I said like when Sunny, when Hate 5-6 was getting going, I said, hey, you should stop doing direct

to soundboard because it... Dude, you're exposing me. It's a little exposing for sure. But also I was like, I was like it sounds like crazier when without it it sounds like less intense when it's plugged in direct

because I grew up watching You're listening to one mixer's perspective Yeah On the way it should sound Of course Rather than what it sounds like a lot Right and like in like I grew up watching like the VHS cameras

And like the microphone can't handle the energy So it's just like Simbles You're like what the fuck am I watching here And like it's like kind of grainy You're like what is actually like 100 people looks like 9,000 people. So you're like, and I remember watching when things became a little more professional,

being like, ah, what the, it's kind of lost the vibe. Took the curtain. Yeah. So then like we, for this program show, you know, five kids were singing along and it was, you know, kids are getting into it, but it was tightly packed. It looks a lot bigger than it actually was. Then we had these two VHS cameras watching at two different angles. and we're like, oh, it was like a really cool show,

probably never happened again, whatever. Then we put the video out, and then our next show that we played, you know, in Boston, which where we were from and like, no one would ever go off. Then suddenly like, literally like two months prior, people saw us and were like, all right, cool. That video came out and people were like,

oh, and I don't know if you guys remember this, but I just talked about this with Alex Henry in Fiddlehead in basement. There was a, I told, title fight video that had a similar kind of like impact. It was them playing in a little tiny barn. And I remember that video came out

and then suddenly boom, like everyone was like, we gotta see this band. Yeah. It's something. It's something about like a tightly packed, small, terribly shot. A moment.

It just takes one beautiful moment. Same thing happened to Gulch. It was a moment that was captured. Did that, was that the, what was the? Yeah, there was this house show where they just looked fucking crazy.

Yeah, they just look. And people are going off and they just looking, they look so insane that people were like, I got to know what this is. Yeah.

And it's sad. It was shot on a phone. It sounded like shit. Yeah. So it's sick. That, that, that band,

they broke up. That's amazing. They did it. They did it. You did that. But you, yeah, that's the have heart model.

You kill Gulch. Respectfully, you know? No, I was like, I was like, this band's breaking up. They're like in top of the game.

Like, that's, that's, that's, Oh. That's the, that's the move, but they're going to live in infamy. And should they choose to ever, like, you know, play another show again? You know, like people will, people respond.

You know, it could be to 10,000 people, which brings us to. Segway. Is there a larger non-fest gathering for a hardcore band? There can't be ever. You know, I don't know. It was just a show. That was what we wanted to do. We weren't supposed to play Sound and Fury.

But we, you know, it was just timing-wise. Like, you know, we were, we wanted to do just shows. And our California show sold out super quick. And so we're like, all right, we'll make like a second show. And that'll be part of Sound Free. but we really just wanted to play shows. And we really didn't think, for perspective, the night, like the week before we were going to announce everything,

like five days or something like that, the original, we were going to just do our Boston show where we did our last show, which holds like about 1,500,000 people. And then they pulled out and we were like, all right, fuck, what are we going to do? And then we were like, what if we just did it, you know, downstairs Middle East, which holds like 500

people? Oh my God. Like, hand to God, it's not false modesty. Like, we were just like, we don't know how people will fucking respond to this. You would have had to do a month, you would have to do a month long residency. Yeah, residency. Oh my God, I'd rather die. But we were like,

maybe we'll just do it there and we're like, all right, but a couple months prior and I was really worried about it because knocked loose had played the downstairs palladium. Big deal. They sold it out. They sold it out. And I was like, oh, fuck. If we do a reunion and we don't sell out

the downstairs palladium, you know, in a day and age and which like, you know, knocked loose it, I'm going to kind of feel bad about myself a little bit. Like not because of them or anything like that. No, no, not at all. We can't really like hang or something like that and it's just not what we wanted and so like you know we announced it and then um just just sold really fucking quickly and I think I think the I think the announcement out of nowhere coupled with um coupled with like in three days we're gonna do like people had like

a countdown so it's like it just generated hype and Bob and Riley and uh Ninook, Ninook's our European guy. I don't know if you guys ever worked with him. Yeah, no, NNUK very familiar. He hooked us up. He got our connection in South Africa and China, South America everywhere. Sure. He's, he's the goat.

Palladium sold out, you know, it was really only just four shows, sold out in, I think it was like less than 30 seconds or something like that. And the plating was like, what the fuck is this? And we've never had anything to fill out this quick. And they were like, you got to do,

you got to do, you got to do a second show and um we hate playing the same and you twice it's just the fucking worst that kills the magic and we were we were like no no we don't want to do it send the plate it was like you know we do these summer these outside summer series how we do it there and we're like no fucking barrier like we we we just won't do it you're not you're gonna miss out on money if you give us a bear if you put in a barrier yeah right and so they were like Well, do no, like the guy who, one of the owners at the play name is actually like an old, like 80s hardcore dude who used to book minor threat in Boston or something like that. It's crazy.

So he was like, he got it. He was like, all right, let's fucking roll with it. Amazing. And we're like, how many people can you fit in there? Like, you can fit about like, you know, eight or nine thousand people in that lot. So we ended up selling, it was like pre-pree show. was like 9,000 plus tickets or something like that. We're like, what the fucking fuck?

And then there was like walkups. And like we kind of lost count. Imagine, I'll get a ticket at the door. Imagine being a walkup for that thing. Like how did they logistically know what to do? Like when do you start the door? When do you, how do they pick up tickets? It was totally weird.

It was just a real freakerts. I think also the time. timing helped like you know like it was like fourth of July weekend it was like oh go to boston it'll be a nice time and you know so a lot of people just sort of flew out and like I don't know it seemed like not too much of a hassle because it was like not in like an enduring fest you get in you get out and and we were I think we were pretty explicit that like there's like no barrier and so that was kind of intriguing to people but like it like the number the number's cool like I'm like oh that's awesome that's cool like my my

dad would be proud you know my my mother was proud uh you know it was like this like shithead in in you know in high school who just kind of wanted to like express himself and contribute to the world positively uh and all these people came out and that's really cool but the thing i'm most proud about is that there was no barrier that we just we we held true to that because to us it was like we the you're losing the like the point of hardcore and i get We've played barrier shows. Like, we really have no control over it. But like, I'm with you.

It just like, I get it. And then there's issues of safety. But like, the participation is the whole purpose. There's a disconnect. Totally. Absolutely. And so we were adamant about that. We were like, it's just not going to.

And we paid big money because the Palladium more or less kind of found out how important it was to us. And we're like, oh, you know. Well. So, you know, we paid some good money to have that. And it's kind of fucking crazy to think that there was a show that big, like, no barrier. And it was, I think at outbreak there was like six or seven thousand people who showed up. Yeah.

And that's like every hardcore person in the UK. Yeah. I was there. I was like, holy shit. There's like, there's a lot of fucking people. There's like 3,000 less people that were on my show in Boston here. crazy. It's so weird. I remember being a little bit more. Only 6,500. It was just like a regular show too.

Three bands versus all of them. That's crazy. That's the running joke that I, the gag that I have. There's a lot of people here. I remember there was this one show in Worcester. And that was just vain. Was it vain DTN have heart? Vane, DTN, have heart. And then, um, yeah, I think. that that was and we had anxious and once I'm supposed to play the night before we had them jump on because

they were starting a U.S. tour and were like, ah, just jumped the fuck on. No, Amunation. My friend Gil's band. And that was really great. Gil, he was a wonderful friend. And, but Gil's also known for like, you know, showing up late,

playing too long. And the crazy thing about that show is like it was an outdoor show. Sure. And, you know, near 10,000 tickets sold ahead of the time. And I'm checking the weather as time approaches and gets closer and closer. And you know, you can look out like two weeks ahead.

And for about two weeks, it's saying like thunderstorms July, July 6th. And I'm like, me, I'm calling Bob Shett. I'm like, hey, man, this is a fucking problem. Like, what the fuck are we going to do? And he was just like, we got nothing. There's like, there's literally nothing we can do. And I was like, I guess we're going to do. we could like play in the

palladium like three times that day or something like that and he's like well apparently Static X is playing inside so that's a no go. And I was like, oh my God, no one fucking cares about that. So like it's fake Static X too. Yeah, it's not even the guy. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah.

So like it's the day of, day of is getting closer and closer and there's like my son was sick and like he was like three months old. It was like this total nightmare and I'm looking at this and And like, you know, my wife understandably is like, you have a brand new child and he's sick. We need you to help out.

I'm like, but you don't understand. This is 10,000 people coming to see me. And so I'm looking at the weather. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is not going to work out. And so, and then like the day before, it clears up. And it's like, all right. I'm like, he's going to be cool. I wake up the morning of after the first show, which was a whirlwind.

and it says rain at like exactly like when like I guess DTN was like set to play and I was like oh my fucking God this is like the worst night me it was like thunderstorms right it was like certain morning of this is going to happen at three o'clock or something like that so I get on my social media so the whole day you're freaking out about this I was like 6 a.m and I was like holy fucking so like I just immediately I'm on like Instagram like you know the show is starting like two hours earlier or something like that telling everybody to do that and it's like perfectly sunny out and somehow worked and word got out you know it was like just I was like telling like everyone fucking reposted and uh so then we play uh and it was I think one of

the worst shows I've ever experienced because it was like or like I don't mean worse I just mean like I didn't process any of that because I was like fuck we haven't play in 10 years. And there's all these people here. And I'm like, you know, it was just like, it was bizarre. It was like totally bizarre. So you had tunnel vision the whole time. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, it's too much to process and think about. And I was like, the whole time, I remember thinking not the whole time, but I remember just thinking like, how was anybody in the back enjoying this? It was like nothing to sing along to. There's no melody to what I'm singing here. It's not even, you know, like, yeah, you pump your arm. You're like a mile away.

And like, you know, like. But, you know, maybe it was something to just sort of see. But, uh, anyway. Be part of that. That's, yeah, I think you're discrediting community. Discrediting a lot. Yeah, yeah. But like, I, I just, like, it was just in my brain.

I just wanted, wanted everyone to have a good time. Pat, Pat, leave Pat alone, okay. Get off Pat's back, okay. It's like, it's a good advice. I've been, been thinking about that a lot. Do you have a specific time period in history that you're particularly into? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

There's two. There's 1600s, like in Massachusetts, actually. I live in a town that was like burnt to a crisp in this thing called King Philips War in the Wampanags and the English. Brutal stories. The tree on my front yard is like really, it's the oldest tree in my town. because the person, the people who lived in this house likely had type of disease. And so the Wampanogs didn't burn it down. So the trees like still stands.

Whoa. It's kind of like a monument to genocide in some respects. Because the war was like a genocidal. Yeah. So see that every morning. What's your favorite revolution? Haitian. Haitian revolution.

That's a good one. That's a good one. Brother. Strap in. You got one for me? You are free from human bondage simply because of it. Really?

Yeah, 1791 August 21st. Wow. What's the other time period? I'll learn about it in an Assassin's Creed game. Honestly, it is like Lord of the Rings that the story of the Haitian Revolution. It's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. Look up Avengers of the New World. Someone's going to do an HBO series on it. It's fellowship. It's Hobbit. It's rings of power. You name it. It's unbelievable this story. I cannot believe there hasn't been like a mini series on it. It's just insane. But the other world of specialty is really just like Holocaust history. Yeah. I taught a course for a while on it at my school and, you know, and I'll study it a lot in undergrad and graduate school. And it's just, you know, you know, You know, like, I have like a, I guess I have a sunny, like a sunny disposition on life, but, you know, there's a lot of darkness in there. You know, I basically trust no one other than like my family. You know, you read some stuff and you see some stuff in your own, like, you know.

There's just a human behavior. The little stories of triumph in the Holocaust are always like that much more. Yeah. More meaningful. But like, it's just a, what a demonstration of like just human behavior and like in its worst form. Ordinary people just kind of doing awful things given the chance. And then you see stuff in your own setting.

You're like, oh, man, we're still just as shitty. Yeah. I got a copy, a copy. Someone gifted me a book of the Bernal Diaz journals. and he was along with Cortez who he first landed like in the Yucatan and that was

that that became a quick favorite of mine because it's almost like aliens landing oh my God yeah to just completely different civilizations making contact and just like not really and like his Cortez is

I mean obviously as terrible as it was his whole life story is really crazy and like burning the ships dying swash buckling on a beach. Yeah. Yeah. That's fucking insane.

Like, you could write that in a movie and people would think it was like over dramatic and made up, you know? Yeah, totally. Yeah, that story is unbelievable. Like, just the process of them kind of taking out the Aztex. And the three translators and like how they had to like, like just all that. Oh, yeah, there was like sabotage. One of the translators was like on their side and went back and yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's just really crazy. And then I got really into the idea. idea that like Gavrilo Pritchip changed modern. Who's that? The Gavrilo Prince. Oh, Guvrillo. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I pronounce his name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just changing the world by murdering the Archduke and spiraling us into modern warfare. Yeah, I got a little. That's Game of Thrones, right now. Yeah, yeah, quite literally. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it. And I didn't watch King of Thrones.

I always wanted to. I kept telling me to it was, but, uh, I got a little. little poster in my room. It's a sign. It says like the first world. It's like a huge white sign. Here's a little taste into Mr. Flynn's history class. I did this once. I don't know

all the time. I'm a big lover of sandwiches. I don't know if you're a way. Your favorite sandwich? Well, more of like the sub-hugie world of things. Like a specific sandwich. Do you have a favorite? Yeah. Turkey bacon is always reliable. Italian.

Italians is my number two, probably. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a fan of, like, Jersey mics. They've really come hot on the scene. Oh, Jimmy Johns has the, the goat fast food Italian sandwich. I agree with you on that. We have one Jimmy Johns in Massachusetts, at least that I know of. Um, I had a good time there. It's so crazy to be.

That's the one place that we have that I can't believe anyone gives a shit about because they just, I got to drive. I got to drive like 20 minutes to get to one. Oh. I can't, I can't door to that. I ain't going. As long as it's got oil and vinegar on it, I'm down. with the sandwich. That's all I need.

Yeah, Mike does it. Does it pretty well in that sense. You Cubano boys? Yeah. I could do the mustard. Yeah. That's my number one favorite sandwich. Really? I never knew that. How about that? All right, this poster. Oh, yeah. Well, like, I did this

once, but students walked in to my room. And you know that Stephen Crowder guy that's on the internet? He was big at the change my mind thing. Yeah, that motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he can go fuck himself, but like the meme format was a meme and like the students I'm not like the big like you know hey kids I'm into memes and I'm trying to connect fellow children that's not my vibe but what I'm into is like promoting discourse and discussion that isn't just pure debate but it's more about like listening to the other side trying to change someone's mind and just sort of persuade someone with logic and reason so I like that that became a meme that kids were using or at least we're familiar with but um there was a big sign well actually

there was a desk you walk in the first thing you see in the middle of the room is this literally like this giant fucking sub spicy italian oh it was from the local sandwich store nilios and it was beautiful man i guess it made me the biggest sub you got it was not like i put it on one of the large desks like the wide ones for students with wheelchairs and we put it right on top of there and there was a sign in front of the desk that said the first world war a sandwich started the first world war changed my mind and so it deal for the rest of the class that they had to kind of practice the historical thinking concept analysis skill of explaining historical causation which always says it like it's never one thing it's always a multitude confluence of things but except for world war one

want it right yeah yeah exactly and so like you have to use their background knowledge and apply it to the framework to kind of convince me that you know it was like to change my mind that a sandwich did not start the first world war but the sandwich stories in mythology the stand with the myth the myth is that gavrillo you know after failing to kill the archduke in his first attempt tried to hide and hid in a in a sandwich store and bought a sandwich and then and then and then yeah and then while eating the sandwich. It was like, oh, shit, there he is. I'm going to go fucking try and kill him again.

And then he did it, and then here we are. But here we are. Apparently, that's a big lie. You know, and there was no, there were no sandwiches in Sarajevo at the time. Oh, really? I did hear that it was like a cafe and he was more dismayed that he, like, didn't get his chance. Yeah, yeah. And it was happenstance.

And then he sent us into a hundred years of literal nonstop conflict. Yes, the world. You know, it's just little things. But yeah, I got real into World War I. Yeah, it's unbelievable time period. Speaking of aliens. Yeah. There we go.

Let's finish on this. That's beautiful. This is a good way to end it. What a genius. We just took a very, we were very scared. We went in a haunted place recently. We saw some ghosts, ghouls. Was this the thing you were talking about at first?

It'd be even a goblin. It was a furnace. You ever seen a ghost on tour or had a spooky experience? Yeah, it's that Halloween time. Do you believe in ghosts? I mean, I feel like you have to. Like, I feel like you kind of got to. Kind of got to.

We're such a stupid, weird product of, like, evolution and the galactical evolution, I guess you could say. I don't know. Like, it's got to be something out there. Something. Um, not, not just aliens, but like, you know, in terms of like, I don't know. There's been some weird shit, you know, uh, in when I was in high school, um, and especially around where I live. There's, there's fucking crazy shit all, like my town that I live in right now.

It's a battleground, right? It was burnt to the fucking ground. It, like, 10 years. By the Wampanogs and mash, uh, mash peas and the, um, not the mashpees. that nitmunks and the Wala Monopogs, they just set it on fire because they were like, you know what? Like after 50 years of coexisting, unlike with the Spanish, it was like day one conquest or like fighting and genocide, after 50 years of trying to make it work and then the English were basically like, yeah, we're just, we're going to fucking take you out. It was,

it was a absolute brutal, like, kill or be killed type of conflict. Everywhere around here. And then the English effectively won and then spent, you know, I don't know, I'm not going to get to preach you on the history here, but like, you know, like the chief of the Wampanox name was Mediom or King Philip as they referred to him and he referred to himself. He was killed in King Philip's war. And then they took his head and his limbs and they hung it in Plymouth on a tree for 30 fucking years. But on top of that, his wife and children, his son, his wife and his son, well, his wife was sent into the Caribbean into slavery, and his son waited in the Boston Harbor on a ship known as the sea flower. And he waited on this ship while the English were debating it as to whether they should kill him publicly or send his ass down to slavery. The debates were actually like literally months long debating Which would be the more prudent thing to do? Yeah

I feel like public execution would be too Catholic and too Spanish So they just went back and forth It's just like extreme brutality and just like You know 30 years of seeing limbs hanging from a tree Which is why like you know Thanksgiving It's like this weird fucking thing that yeah It's just it's hard to celebrate him walking around or what What's that?

You seen him walking around? King Philip? Yeah. Well, no, that's an interesting thing, is that, like, they say his, you know, like his spirit's still, like, wandering, looking for his family around this whole entire area. It's got to be. Got to be. And in Westport, in kind of south of Boston area where all this conflict happened,

there was this house that was built on a burial site, a native person's burial. site. People and the house was all fucked up always. No one, people would buy it and then it would be like ransacked and be like who fucking broke into and ransacked it. No one can figure out everyone like my dude Joe got me into hardcore. He had a stepfather who like or an uncle or something like that who owned a place and it was just always getting fucked up. So we went there one time with a with a VHS camera and there was this this white orb that kind of came on the screen and then stopped and I was the one filming I was like hey what the fuck is this

just I was like is the camera messed up and then it went went away caught norm and then it came back and then it went away and then we all were watching like what the fuck is this and the next day videotape wouldn't work

irrefutable proof that you put any you put any stock into the idea that Salem they were having a kind of fungi reaction to the mass hysteria kind of thing I think that that's that I'm into that

dry air air guy I think it was yeah that's it air guy yeah you're absolutely right yeah uh Pat Kinlan was talking me about that recently I think he's gonna yeah I bet he was yeah but yeah his message sucks man it's just so so much terrible shit that we just sort of

like the flag the state flag is a is a an image of a of a generalized native person with a with a with a with a sword over it and the flag was created like right after the public beheading of of of king phillips and so like the wampanogs are like hey this change this fucking flag it's a clear like it's a clear reference to you murdering our our our god like leader and the the wonderful thing is like the state finally said all right we're going to change it let's get a new flag but every every like my high school

still flies the fucking flag outside my window. That's like the Confederate flag and the New Bedford? I mean, the eyes of the wampan, I'm sure it is. It's a, well, like my school, really progressive school, they're still flying it. The governor already said we're getting a new one. Take it fucking down. Come on now.

Did you get the new one already? They haven't made the new one. Oh, it's going to be so sick, I bet. I bet it will be dope because it's all like native people making it. I hope it's just a big fuck you to. to like English people. The giant middle finger. Here's your double birds.

There's your double birds. It's the basest of Limp Biscuit doing the double birds. We everything comes back around. Full circle. And on that note, two hours and 22 minutes later. I'm going to explode if I don't urinate. Yeah. I've been parted this whole time.

But Pat, this was incredible. What a great chat. Hey, thanks for having me. I'll rip any time. You hit me up. I'll show up. I'll pop in. I'll hit you have.

We're buddies now. You're in the bunker, as Carl Beakner told me. What a great little teaser for the next time. Yeah, there you go. We're in the bunker. Could you do us one favor? Yeah, sure. Could you say it's hard lord time?

Yeah, yeah, sure. It's hard lore time. Gorgeous. Thank you so much. That's our show. All right. I'm going to pop off right now. and go to bed.