HardLore - Ray Cappo: Youth of Today, Shelter, Straight Edge & The Search for Spirituality

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

We’re back… HardLore returns with a very special episode in honor of our late co-host, friend, and brother, Bo Lueders. Youth of Today was Bo’s favorite hardcore band of all time, and a constant through-line on this show since the beginning. Now, we’re finally joined by YoT/Shelter vocalist and trailblazer of straight edge as a movement: RAY CAPPO, for a 3.5 hour career retrospective interview.It doesn’t end there, as our first ever guest co-host is also extra special, we’re joined by Harms Way vocalist James Pligge (aka “Youth Crew James”) to round out this perfect tribute to our fallen friend.We start from the very beginning in Danbury, CT, where Ray and Violent Children got a historic head-start from an opportune visit to a radio station, discovering Hare Krishna through Harley Flanagan, meeting Porcell and evolving into Youth of Today and spreading straight edge all around the world, thoroughly BREAK DOWN the Youth of Today discography, founding Revelation AND Equal Vision Records, and the spiritual path that lead to the end of Youth of Today and the humble origin of Shelter.The goal remains the same, carry on the love and dedication for our favorite bands that we’ve shown every week the last 4 years… But with the new mission of honoring Bo every step of the way. Enjoy._______________HardLore: A Knotfest Series, fueled by Monster Energy.Shot, mixed and edited by Steven GriseTitle sequence by Nicholas Marzluf• Join the HARDLORE PATREON to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episodes.• Join the HARDLORE DISCORD• Get 10% off MILLS VINTAGE site-wide with code HARDLORE• Get 10% off GUILTY PARTY site-wide with code HARDLORE and grab some of our favorite clothing brands of all time.______________00:00:00 - Start00:03:09 - Discovering Punk And Hardcore00:10:00 - Violent Children & Darryl on the Radio00:17:50 - Harley Flanagan & Reflex From Pain00:29:24 - Porcell00:33:25 - Hare Krishna, Straight Edge & The Lower East Side00:39:09 - Youth of Today00:50:29 - Pardon This Interruption00:53:04 - Can’t Close My Eyes01:11:41 - Youth Crew as a Movement01:12:46 - We Just Might01:22:21 - Touring on Can’t Close My Eyes01:26:56 - Wishingwell Records01:29:42 - Break Down The Walls01:40:15 - Record Collecting & Trade Currency01:50:19 - Revelation Records01:57:00 - Break Down The Walls Cont.02:10:30 - Break Down The Walls Tour02:21:12 - The Girl Next Door Soundtrack02:22:25 - We're Not In This Alone02:39:48 - “No More” Music Video02:45:21 - We're Not In This Alone Tour, Formation of Shelter02:55:14 - Renouncing the World via Shelter03:02:09 - Equal Vision Records & Krishnacore03:05:00 - Mantra03:18:21 - Shelter After Mantra03:26:24 - Breaking Edge03:33:04 - Top 4 Hardcore Records of All Time

Hello, welcome. It's almost hard Lord time. But before that, I must thank you all so much, not only for being here, but for the love and support for both me, for Bo, for Bo's family, Bo's friends, Bo's band. The past two months have been horrific and emotional and informative. A lot of growth. I wear glasses now because I guess, headaches can mean that. I got melasma. We'll catch up another time. This could be a lot longer.

But I want this to be a beautiful occasion in celebration of Boe forever because the flame still burns and this show must go on. Bo and I started this four years ago to talk to and talk about our favorite music in the world. And that is what we will continue to do.

Every week, I will be joined by a special guest co-host. That's right. Bo is irreplaceable. I need an army. Those special guest co-hosts to me will directly correlate to my guest. So please, without further ado,

in thanks to the Detroit Masonic Temple, Pete and Jimmy, for making this happen. We now roll the beginning of Hardlore A.D. Let's go. Hello, welcome back. It's Hardlore Time. How you doing, Bo? what a special day on the show here.

We are back after many weeks after losing my beloved co-host, Bo Luters, but it's a very special day. I got some very special guests here to help me with this very special day. First off, I must introduce my guest co-host, the first of many to come from Harmsway, from Chicago. Please welcome James Pliggy. Hello, Harlow. What is up?

outstandingly done and to my right here our very special guest today joining us for the very first time very first episode back from youth of today from shelter from punk to monk his new book out now

please welcome the great Ray Raganoth Capo thank you sorry for the loss oh thanks devastating it is but you know We know he'd be psyched to have you here today. It is a poetic, it is a boetic moment here, for lack of a better word.

And let's set this thing off. What do you say? Let's do it. Take us back in time to discovering punk and hardcore in Danbury, Connecticut. I think as I turned into ninth grade, and we had an interesting conversation in the car because my brother lived in Jackson Heights, and my sister did too. And my family are New York family,

but they came to Connecticut to raise kids. So I'd just go into the city when I was 14, 15, just to visit them. And then I'd just wander around New York City. My parents, I don't know why my parents didn't care, wandering in New York City. They knew you were there and didn't care? Yeah, they were just like, yeah, go see New York City.

They were just, I don't know. Maybe it's because I was like six out of seven kids, and I know my own family, my last kid, my youngest kid, he gets, do whatever you want. You get a little of that. Sure. And my first kids, I was like ultra concerned of what they did, turn left and right and trying to control them. So maybe they had just released all control. But every weekend, I just go into New York and stay at my brother's house and just stumble upon things. And, you know, if you grew up in a suburban America in the 80s, everything was sort of monochromed.

and corporate, corporate everything. And I wanted to sort of, and you go to New York, and you're like, wow, things are different, and people are unique, and I used to hang out in the village. And I started stumbling into the Lower East Side. Okay. And start seeing freaky people and weird people, and I was like, I feel like these people more

than those people back home. Sure. So starting in ninth grade, I started to try to find myself. And I had some kids that were slightly older than me, who sort of turned me onto some records. sort of new wave and, you know, punk rock and oi and, you know, stuff like that and just hand me records to listen to. And it was just sort of like going to see live music, which really sort of turned me on in New York City. And I didn't really have a taste for any, like, rock and roll.

I didn't grow up listening to Kiss. I listened to Bob Dylan a little. I was sort of classically music trained. How do you feel about Kiss now? I still never listened. Really? I'll send you some bangers. I got you. Yeah. If I do like any rock and roll, it's because I went back and listened to it.

But I really went from like Bob Dylan and then I heard a Sex Pistols record. I was like, oh, this is what I want. Many such cases. This is what I want. And then I found Bleaker Bob's. That was my first punk record store. And I was like, oh wow, these people are freaking crazy. And then it was just like a mad search for crazy, weird, non-popular music.

And it was so cool about it. It was so cool back in those days because to get this type of music that wasn't sold at regular record stores. Yeah, totally. You had to go to weird, unique record stores, which were, like, as big as a closet. I'm exaggerating, but small record stores. It wasn't welcome in Tower Records. Sure. And so for me, we'd go to New York City.

I'd buy some record. I had a couple other friends. I sort of got into it. And then we'd come back and, you know, records were expensive. We had no money. So this guy had a clash record, and I had a Human League record, and they had a Black Flag record, and they had the Maxim Rock and Roll compilation. And together we sort of pooled our records, traded cassettes, and that's how we got into weird music.

But it wasn't until I never distinguished hardcore from New Wave. I tell the story about in my book, which is very funny, because we, you know, me and my friends, like, we didn't know anything about the, music scene. And so I would look in the back of the village voice that was like New York City's sort of alternative magazine. You could figure out what bands were playing. And it was like, it all seemed punk and weird and avant-garde to me. So that weekend, I went to The Ritz, and I saw haircut 100. I don't know if you've ever heard haircut 100. They were sort of like a, I don't know, super pop-pop-y, clean-cut British bands. The next day,

To me, it was just all weird. Sure. So the next day, I went to CBGB's. Because the UK subs and the Beastie Boys first band, The Young and the Useless, were playing. And when the Young and the Useless got on, and the guys in the Beastie Boys are, like, my age, just exponentially more successful,

they started slam dancing. And I've never seen anyone's slam dance. I've just heard of slam dance. and then I was like, this is incredible. And I just started slamming into everybody I saw. Now, that was a big mistake. Yeah, I'm sure. You don't randomly slam into the New York hardcore scene.

If you don't know the specific method of how to slam dance in New York City, there was a specific, you know, dance step, style, et cetera. It's called dancing. I wasn't privy to. Yeah. Now, usually if that happened in any other arena, they would live. look at you, weird. In New York, somebody just grabbed me by the, actually, I know who it was, actually. It was John Watson, who I'm from, who I know now. John Watson grabbed me by the shirt,

and I was about to punch my lights out. And I just go, I'm sorry, I'm new here. I don't know what to do. And John Watson was like a legendarily great mosher. He was the best. He was the first singer of Ignatio Front. And he was a great mosher. He toured with crucifix. saved your life? It's just that. It saved my life right then. So that was my first experience into what, as soon as I learned that there is a hardcore scene, that's when everything just shifted for me.

And then every weekend, I forgot going to the Ritz and I just started going to CBGB's. Then I discovered A7. And then I was just like, that sort of absorbed me. Okay. And then I found Rat Cage Records, which was a really peculiar record store. They put out the Beastie Boys record. they put out, whatever that cage put out. Nasty Front single,

who put out? Anyway, I can't remember at this point, but there was like an underground record store that sold skateboards run by a drag queen. Cool? Yeah, that was, you find these weird, obscure record stores, and that gave us a whole new life. Sure. And did you already play drums at the time?

No, no, no. After that show, seeing The Young and the Useless, the Girl I was with said, Ray, you could do this. You could get up on stage like these guys. And I was like, I think I could. So I went back, told my other punk friends who didn't come to the show, there's this music we gotta hear, it sounds like this, we gotta go. And I started indoctrinating them into the hardcore cult.

And then I said, we should start a band, and none of us played instruments. Perfect. It was perfect. So I'll go, I'll play drums. I'll play bass, I'll play guitar, and one guy sang. And that's how my first band Violent Children started. Which we got a lot to talk about with that. Yeah, a lot to talk about it.

Would you cite D.C., Boston, and New York kind of equally influential to you in that time, like in terms of musical output? At that point, it was exclusively New York. Okay. At that time. And then slowly, it sort of had expanded because the bands, it's an interesting period. Like, 1982, there were no records out. Right.

You know, you have negative approach, have the single out. abused the abused I remember when that came out Ignostic didn't have a record out truthfully when I got into it there was only there was a Crout single then a new Crout single came out and then the false prophets

had a single and the misguided had a single So this happening in real time you're just hearing all these things This is all coming in and that was it like five records in New York and then I remember when the Crout album came out that was like wow an album Like no one had an album out

And it wasn't until later than more records that I remember I watching agnostic fron and cause for alarm and the and the abuse, but there was no music out yet, you know. So you said you take this home, you talk to your friends in school, start violent children. Is one of those friends Porcel? No, no. I didn't meet Purcell till a little later. Here we go. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, because Purcell, he lived in, like where I lived in Connecticut was borderline, the, New York State on the border. So he lived in Westchester, and then when the anthrax club opened up,

I'll tell the, this story's in my book. It's actually, that story wasn't in my book, I don't think, but this story is, where violent children made a demo. And when I say demo, we didn't know anything about recording anything. We just had a boom box and play and record. And that was our demo.

And you've got to understand, we sucked. We really, really sucked. but we loved what we did. Sure. And we were trying to meet other people. And we knew there was one older guy in college, and our radio station played all classic rock. When I say radio station, the college radio station in Danbury,

WXCI, which became a pretty big radio station. And we heard that there was this college guy who played some hardcore and some... You know, you got to understand back then, the Human League or in excess or Depeche Mode, that was all considered like avant-garde cutting edge. That was extreme music. You know, real weird, weirdo stuff. And so, and then, so he had this show from a little.

This is Daryl. Daryl, Orr from No Milk on Tuesday. That was his band. Once Wilde Children got a little notoriety, then he goes, I'm going to start a band too. And he's starting a movie. Oh, okay, cool. So Darrell was super cool. And we went there at night during his show at night,

which was 11 to 1 on a Sunday night. And we stood out the window, because you couldn't get into the building because it was locked at 11 p.m. But there was a light on in the studio. So he threw pebbles at the window until someone looked out the window, and they let us in. We said, we're in a hardcore band.

We're in a hardcore band. So he lets us in the studio. And he's like, you guys are in a damn very hardcore band. We're like, yeah. He's like, can I play your demo? He's like, yeah, that's why we're here. So Darrell was so excited. And he was just like, you're not going to believe it, everybody.

We have Danbury Connecticut's very own hardcore band. Violent Children are here live. He was more excited than we were. And he played, he just featured our demo all night long. And then all of a sudden, the guy who owned the anthrax called up the radio station. And Darrell's like, hey, the phone's for you. He's like, hey, I've run this club, the anthrax. We just, you know, it's an art gallery.

And, you know, the anthrax was an art gallery. They did like, you know, Keith Heron. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keith Heron painted the refrigerator of the anthrax. Like, it was like probably worth a fortune right now. But they had all these old, you know, back then it was like a cross between hip hop graffiti, hardcore, you know, cutting edge, street art.

It was all blended together. And if you were just not part of the corporate rock world, you were welcome into that scene. That's why the scene was very, you know, broad in that sense. So all these people start calling and they're like, we need violent children.

Well... Because you, like you said, there's so few records out and so few bands exist that the news hits that there's a local band in Connecticut and it's like, Like, get them on the phone. Yeah, and Brian sort of like harnessed all the Connecticut bands together.

I didn't even know there was a Connecticut scene. Wow. I was going to New York every weekend. I was like, and he said, like, look, we're doing a benefit. The art gallery got shut down. We're about to reopen in Stanford. And we're doing a benefit concert at Pogo. Now, Pogo's was the legendary punk rock club of Connecticut when I was growing up.

That's where Dead Kennedys would play or stuff like that. But for me, I was a kid, I was 16 years old. To drive to Bridgeport was unheard of, your mother's car. You know, Bridgeport's a total ghetto. And so he's like, we're doing a benefit at Pogo's. We want you guys to play. I was like, well, who's going to play? He's like, agnostic front, Reagan Youth, Urban Waste.

I was like, what? These are like all my favorite bands. Now these are real guys to you. I mean, my hero bands were Reagan Youth, Urban Waste. the abused, Ho's was playing, it was Rick Rubin's band. Crazy. And I was like, yeah, we'll play. And that's where we met Moby, Vatican Commandos, and some other local hardcore band, CIA.

And so, yeah, we walked into a whole new world that, oh, Connecticut has a hardcore scene. And this is fascinating. We had no idea. Yeah. And boy, does it ever, you know. Then they hang up the phone. Another phone call, Witt.

And Darrell goes, it's for you. you. And it is Johnny Stiff. I don't know if you know Johnny Stiff is. He's like an old hardcore legend booking agent from New York City. He was like, and he booked A7. He's like, we want you to play

at A7. I was like, what? We got a gig on A7. We got to gig it at Pogo. So this is just right place, right time. It's just like some karmic, like stars aligning, right place, right time. And now we're playing gigs. And you've got to understand, you know,

we had friends in high school that were real great musicians that were like you know back then in high school kids did cover bands they did Led Zeppelin or they did rush or they did so this these guys had all the beautiful equipment they played every rush song just like rush but you know they just can't get gigs you know cover bands you get some it's just weird immediately we had gigs and an audience that like our first show I mean we sucked and everybody loved us Just because the hardcore scene is just so supportive. Yeah. That happens today.

Yeah. People, bands and suck are doing great. They're doing great. They're doing great. They're loved. Okay. So now you were this active showgoer at CB's NA7. Now you're playing there.

Yeah. When in this timeline do you meet Harley Flanagan? And he sets you on the beginning of your spiritual path. Okay. That's going to fast forward a little bit. because at a certain time in a certain, see, I love playing drums because it's like physical and exhausting. But I really am like more of a, I'm a speaker.

You're a public speaker. I'm a talker. I like to tell stories. So I always sort of wanted to be the singer. And there was a good, I think Connecticut was into two different, had two different tiers. Bands like us that sucked. And then these very high-level bands, and one of them was CIA. And if you've ever heard, the first CIA single, is one of the best records, hardcore records out.

And everybody thought CIA will be the next minor threat. They are, like, so good. And they just sort of dissolved quick, unfortunately. Another big band was Reflex from Pain. And Reflex from Pain, and these two bands just put out singles in 1982 or 83. And again, and they knew everybody. Back then, if you were, you know, good music. musicians and maybe a couple years older than me, you knew everybody.

You knew Jellabari Afri, you knew Henry Rollins, you knew Ian Mackay, because that was like the tier just like, it wasn't like 10 years before me. It was like literally a year, maybe a year and a half older than me. Right. You were in this. But time moves differently. Time moves differently back then in hardcore. 100%.

Yeah. You know. So anyway, I'd make a long story short. Those guys, the singer of Reflex from Pain quit, and they said, hey, maybe this young guy because they still were like old guys. They were 24. Yeah. Or maybe 26 or something like that because I was 16 or 17. They might have been 27. Sorry, I'm like... It's all good. Maybe they were 27. I think they were 10 years older than me. I can't remember. But they

were excellent musicians and they wanted me to sing and immediately like these guys sound like frickin real musicians. And they practice and they practice like three days a week and they lived in Stratford, Connecticut, every day and they have like recording equipment and they have their own equipment and they have their own like Marshall half stack. I was like, these guys are so good and I'm the singer of the band. And they were all excited about me. And they're like, look, we got gigs. We're going to D.C. We're going to play with minor threat. We're going to go to Boston. We're going to play this. And I was just, our first show was with the Circle Jerks on, I think it was

this Wild in the Streets tour. Crazy. I know. In Philadelphia with Why Die. I was like, I'm living a freaking high school dream. I'm playing. in front of 700 kids packed, then I get to be like the fan of the circle jerks of whom I love. This is a dream come true. And before we even did all these other big shows, we played in Boston a big show. We played with gangrene, Jerry's kids. It was such a kid. Oh, hell yeah. He's like, just like, we played with suicide. We played with suicide. I can't remember. Whatever it was, we played maybe three big shows. And then we played at A7. This is where I'm getting to the story, because where I met Harley.

Take me. Take me there. So violent children was just sort of like dealing the fact that Ray's got some other band. So they, Reflex and Pain kind of stole you from violent children. They stole me from violent, if you wanted to be on the truth. They did, but these guys were sort of talented. I was just like a dorky kid. You know what I mean? And so they, I think, were saying, you know what?

CIA is falling apart. And Ray is just sort of a kid. let's just get together with CIA, kick Ray out, and start, they started this band called 76% Uncertain, which they were actually great. But on our last show, which was we have one more gig at A7, they told me on the way up, hey, this is your last show, the band's going to break up. They didn't tell me they were going to start another band. Immediately.

It's almost like, you know, you hook up with this girl, but you break up with your girlfriend. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's working out between us, but you already got something on the side. I think it was one of those things. I don't hold them guilty. I was a nerd. I was, you know, I wouldn't want me in the band either if I was them. I was just like a, you know, you know, just like a loud, these guys were like really refined, really musical. They knew everything about music. I barely knew anything still. All I knew was New York hardcore. Yeah, which is, you know. Yeah, which is, yeah, which why we're all here. That's why we're here. Exactly. That's all I know. Yeah, and that's what became popular. That's right. You know, and I was straight edge, and no one was straight edge back then. Like, no one was straight edge, you know.

So it's our last show. The Connecticut hardcore scene shows up at A7. Now you gotta understand something about Connecticut hardcore. Everything was, it's sort of like Coke light, you know what I mean? It's just like everything's easy, everybody's fun, everybody's cool. Sure they dress weird, sure the music's weird,

but everybody's relatively nice, you know, from, you know, good, families. At that point. Yeah, at that point, I don't know what, yeah. I don't know what happened later in Connecticut. They started having fun. New York, though, it was sort of like just filled with runaways and people like living

on the streets and everybody huffing glue. So it was always like you're walking. And New York's, and it was blended with the Lower East Side, which was like a dangerous neighborhood. It was filled with like poor Hispanic gangs who didn't want the punks there. And the puns, that's right. where the punk clubs were. And it was just a really,

it was a whole neighborhood of weirdos and drug addicts and violence and spontaneous violence. Like you don't even know why it's violent right now. You've done nothing to provoke violence. So Harley was, you know, a legend. Even then. And he's a year younger than me.

Okay. So whatever I was, 17. he was 16. He was a legend because he was, you know, when I was a Cub Scout, you know, he was playing in a punk band at Maxis, Kansas City. You know, his mother was like a hippie child of the Beatnik or hippie child.

He did a book with the name will come. Oh, Jerry Gissel. Alan Ginsberg. Oh, yeah. He did a book with Alan Ginsberg. When he was like a child. Yeah. So he, his mother had all these weird alternative connections. and he grew up in that alternative culture.

And then she moved to, they moved to Denmark, where he lived in a squat. And squatting in Europe is really sophisticated. So he was like a gifted musician. He learned how to play every instrument. Sure. And so he was already a prolific musician, a songwriter.

At like 12 and 13. Yeah, yeah. And none of us were. We didn't have any talent. So Harley was just sort of like, already his mother lived across the street from Tompkins Square Park, which is

where everybody hung out. So he knew that neighborhood well, but he had no band at that time. It was just a gang. And he had a gang called the Cromax. And they were violent gang. So Harley was in A7. Now,

New Yorkers supported New York bands, and if you're from out of town, no one wanted to see you. That's just the way it was. It doesn't matter who you were. If you were agnostic front, before they even had a record out, the place will be packed, sold those stores who would pull up, no one watches them. It's just like that.

If you're from New York, we'll give you a sport. And so Reflection Plain came on stage at A7. The Place Empties. It's my last show. And that place is tiny. It was tiny. It was tiny. It was tiny.

You know, and I was just in there like a few weeks before with watching all, you know, with watching all these bands, Ignostic Front, cause for alarm, shock, the abused. Hose played that night, too. They all played, the place was packed till 5 a.m. And that's how it went.

If you were from New York and you're playing that. So they're in this moment, they consciously chose, like, oh, the Connecticut band's playing. We're all leaving. Let's go get ice cream across the street. Whatever, let's just go outside. And the doors didn't open until midnight anyway. So we probably didn't get a good spot.

It was probably like 3.30 the morning. The only person in the club is Harley Flanagan. And he's just standing there like this. And I was still sort of like Rake Today Jr. And the band was very tight and good. And Harley liked us. And he was literally circle pitting for our band. And then we broke into a last song.

and they played a Motorhead Iron Fist, which is what we covered. Now, back then, you only heard of Motorhead if you were sort of cultured in music because they weren't hardcore. You had to be really into this music to understand Motorhead. And Harley was into Motorhead, and these guys were in the band were into Motorhead. And Harley lost it when we played Motorhead. And he's like, after the show, he just came up to me and just sort of befriended me and said, that was so incredible.

That was so incredible. Listen, I'm starting a band next week, and we're going to play in CBGBs. We want you guys to play. I was like, dude, they just kicked me out of my band. He's like, what? They kicked you out? You're the reason the band should exist. And so he really sort of like endorsed me as a singer.

Wow. And from then on, I sort of had a gold ticket not to get my ass kicked in New York. Not that I ever partied with any of those guys. Not that I ever did anything with those guys. But Harley just sort of gave me a little sort of. gave me a little love, threw a little love at me and made me feel sort of welcome. And sort of all his crew just sort of like,

okay, this guy's all right. And I would just go and do my thing in New York and then go back home. Mainly at that point, Reflex from Pain Days, I started just hanging in Connecticut because the anthrax opened. And it was just sort of our scene and we could do whatever we wanted there.

And that's where I met Purcell in Violent Children because the guitar player went off to college. and Purcell was a violent children fan. He's like, you're in Violent Children? I heard you on, you know, on Daryl's, you know. Whoa, that's correct. I mean, that's insane. Yeah, and so we became friends,

and he had a little crew of friends that were from Westchester, and Purcell could actually play the guitar. And I was like, Hey, he had a Les Paul, like already. No, he didn't. He had a fake Les Paul. He wasn't born with a Les Paul. He had fake Les Pauls in 184.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it looks like Les Paul, but we didn't have anything. But he could actually play. I was like, you know how to play a minor threat song? He could play guitar. So he was a great addition to violent children. But me and Purcell just clicked from the first day because we love New York.

Hardcore and the rest of the guys just weren't that serious about hardcore. They were serious about hardcore, but they were serious. They liked metal. They like wasp. And they like, you know. Porcel was, I love hardcore guy. Before we move on from violent children, In the book, Moby mentions that you guys played like a high school talent show.

Do you remember it? He doesn't go to much detail about it. I don't freaking remember. And I hate to say it, but I did a lot of stuff. I've done a lot of shows. And sometimes I feel really bad because this cup can only hold so much liquid. The talent show might be the liquid that needs to go. You know?

No, I just, because I was thinking, because in the book, he made. that they had to change your band names. You had to change the band names. And it was like, and I just like, you know, I remember our, I can't remember what they were changed to, but I just remember when I, like our talent shows, right, they were just, you know, kids would go up there and, you know, it would be a punk band, some kid covering Jimmy Hendrix or whatever. And I just, you know, in that time period, like punk bands playing in high school,

I just was curious what the reaction would have been. I wish. I could have played by high school, but I will tell you something. you something about Purcell. He was in a band before violent children called The Young Republicans. And they were great. They were so good. And the young Republicans played their high school. Now, where they lived was a little bit more preppier than where we lived. We lived in sort of like Connecticut's very preppy, but Danbury was sort of mixed. We had ghettos. We had very wealthy kids. It was a really mixed bag. They had a very wealthy.

pretty much 99% white school. You know what I mean? It was just Westchester in the 80s. So young Republicans, the principal hears about that band. He's like, that sounds awesome. That sounds good. Let's get these guys. But it was like a high school town show.

But at the time, all the New Haven kids started hanging out. All the Anthrax kids started hanging out. Connecticut had a scene. And when the whole hardcore scene showed up at his, incredibly preppy high school and started a mosh pit. It was like the best day for the Connecticut hardcore scene meets the worst day for whatever John Jay High School. It was such a cool. And the same thing happened for violent children when we played the town park.

Somehow we got on the town park thing in Danbury, Connecticut. And I mean, just to see these crazy ladies, ladies, they were probably 22 years old, show up with big mohawks and plaid pants. It, like, freaked out the small town at Danbury. Danbury had nothing until later. After we left, had you moved to New York City, then the guys from Trash American style started a very cool record store in Danbury.

And then Danbury became like an interesting straight-edge, hardcore mecca, which I wish it was when I was a kid. There was nothing. Right, but is the mythos of what you guys were doing? Like, these guys are from Danbury. Did that help it become a straight-ed-up? Mecca? I don't think so. I think when a record store sets up shop, it's sort of like

they bring people, it becomes like a hub, or if a club was there, people would travel to it. Would you consider Porcel your best friend? He's like a brother from another mother. We're somehow carmically bound together for a lifetime. Is Krishna technically your best friend? Chris is my best friend, probably. He's your best, what is it, Satsanga? How would you say that? He's my brother. And we must have been related from a previous life or something.

But you might have people like this in your life that you don't even try to hang out with them, but there they are. They're somehow still in your life somehow or other. That's how this show happens. Yeah, you're just sort of bound to certain people and you stay with them and you can't figure out even why.

Sometimes you're not even trying. But yeah, I have deep appreciation for self. We'll get there soon. Back to Harley Flanagan. I mean, you... He's all one... He's been in my life, too. Yeah, you call him your first unofficial guru.

That's because he started explaining Krishna to me. And were you into it at first? I was not into it at all. Okay. I was not into it whatsoever. And he's like... Like, in your mind now, as somebody who's been doing this thing most of his life, he's a very unconventional guru, you know?

Like... Well, he's a... He was like a He was an influencer. He definitely wasn't, he definitely wasn't religious or something like that. But he,

here's a deal. Whether you were vegetarian, whether you're into yoga, whether you're into hardcore, whether you're into goth, whether you're into speed metal, whether you're into macrobiotics.

The low-reased side was a hub for freaks. Sure. The cross-dressing. Whatever it was, if you were a freak, that's where you went. So to be a Harry Christian, It was just like, you have a seat at the table.

You know, you're just like another weirdo like us. And because the part of like all Hindu Dharma is to give out sacred food, they would do that in Tompkins Square Park. Not necessarily for the poor, just for anyone who wants sacred food. Yeah. And that's part of, you could go to India today, to a holy city in India today, and they give out sacred food. And so when Harley got into Krishna, he came in because they fed him.

And then he would just say, like, what are these guys into? And he just asked those monks the questions. And then he learned the Bhagavigida from just talking to monks, most likely. And then he just started, they all became, his whole gang became vegetarians. So is he, would you consider him like the OG, the godfather of Krishna in hardcore? No, I don't think so. I think John probably was. And even before John, there was this a few of, I mean, all those guys, John Watson, Keith from Cause for Alarm, Louis from Anadote.

there was a whole array. I mean, I used to go to the temple with Ray Warzone and Todd Youth. Right. You know, in 1987 or 1986. 1986, actually. And Richie. Richie brought me there for the first time. Interesting.

It was like a whole hardcore hangout. Yeah. Whether people were into it or not, that's another story. But we definitely went there for free vegetarian food. Okay. But there were some people, you know, got serious about it. They sure did. Yeah.

Okay, so now we're... But we're already straight... But because we were straight-edge, it sort of jibed with our life. I wasn't addicted to any drugs, practically never did drugs. And... So it took you... For a while, Straight-Ege kind of occupied that part of... That was my religion.

Straight-Ege was my religion. And that's what I felt like I had a calling to spread that message. Okay. I'm not going to go to college anymore. this is a good thing. I've seen what the New York City scene is. People are dying. And I've seen what it does to people's lives.

We are not like this. We have a message of hope. We have a message of positivity. We have something we can help the world, even if it's... And then we felt, me and Purcell strongly felt like this is our calling to do it, almost like with a religious fervor.

And because of it, it was cheesy. You know, it was sort of cheesy to tell your friends when you're, you know, 19 years old, hey, man, you shouldn't drink beer and everyone's just drink. The entire scene is drinking beer. Yeah, you're the poindexer. You're the poindexter, the nerd of the paris and stuff like that. But you guys were like the jocks at the same time. And we don't know.

So it's, but so that might be why it worked, you know? I don't know what the recipe was, but it was, it all fell into place like that. It's almost like you were the real punks, right? Because you're doing things, like punk was. one thing. People are drinking. People are taking drugs. Opposition to the norm. They're dressing a certain way. You guys are doing the opposite of that. Well, I was doing some yoga interview in my house yesterday. Someone was interviewing me for something. And there was some, I guess somebody sent me these books. I don't even know where they came from, but it had shelter record and the Youth

of Today records. And it was like a record collector book. And it listed all these reviews. You know, I've read a bunch of other reviews from other bands like Grohl Biscuits. This is an amazing record and, you know, side by side. What a crate of thing. And just like, I'm reading all these reviews. Then I read all the band's reviews for my bands. I'm like, this is the worst record. It was just like they were all.

We were so hated by the punk media at the time. First for being straight edge and second for being Krishna. It was so unwell. And sometimes people say, well, I like shelter or I like Youtha Today. Now, I, we were really hated. We were very unwelcome. Well, we're going to figure out how we got there. Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna, I mean, I'm a frickin' big mouth. I get that. And I'm opinionated, and it was sophomoric and a big mouth. And it was, again, you're going against the norm. Yes. And even Johnny Stiff, who gave us that first gig in New York City. When we first moved to New York City, youth of today. He's like, you think you're going to do straight edge in New York? That's a joke.

New York City will never be straight edge. You know what I mean? And it turned out to be like a big hub for that music at that time. But it was just so unbelievable because New York was so into, I don't know what they did. Sex and violence. Sex, violence, and drugs, yeah. So how do these violent children decide to strip themselves of this name and become the youth of today? what? It was our last show, Violent Children ever did. Oh, you know what it was. You know that song, Youth of Today, by Youth of Today? Yeah, I'm more. Yeah, I'm a physically strong, more than straight. Yeah, of course. So, I wrote that as a violent children song. Uh-huh. And the singer's like, the singer is like, I'm not singing these stupid lyrics. You guys are a bunch of stupid jocks.

And I was like, and me for so like, these are great lyrics. Fisically strong, morally straight, which, by the way, if you don't know, I stole from the Boy Scout Oath, the first two lines. Physically strong, morally, straight, mentally awake. That's from the Boy Scout Oath? Yeah, physically strong, morally straight, mentally awake. That's how it goes. You couldn't steal that. You were like, I'm not that.

I'm a positive youth, though. Yeah, positive youth. So anyway, to make a long story short, he was like, he was just, the singer of violent children was just vehemently. against our stance about straight edge. There was no straight edge scene. There was me and Purcell. I'm stuck on the Boy Scout thing. I needed a second time.

I was Boy Scout and I loved. That's crazy. I loved law and order. Did you know that? I did not know that. That's fucking insane. Isn't that interesting little thing? That's really cool.

I love law and order. I love justice. I love, you know what I mean? Sure. I love, you know, I love, yeah, I wasn't into. It's a great show? No, not the show. I mean, I just loved it.

I'm an SVU man myself. but I'm not so into justice. So he hates these lyrics. He hates this. He's trying to get more into like, I'm crazy. I'm into Kiss. I'm into Wasp. I'm into Def Leopard. And I was just like, why is he taking our band in this direction?

So on the last trip to, I think we had a big out-of-state gig in New Hampshire. Bionageosier. I never left Connecticut. Maybe one show in Jersey, one, and a couple shows in New York City, he played CBGBs. and this is our last show. We didn't know it was our last show, but I said, you know what would be great guys,

let's just freaking forget about college. Let's just go on tour and buy a van and travel all around America. Nothing better. Perfect. Right? And the singer was like, you think I'm going to get in a band with you dirtbags and travel around America?

And it was at that time, me and Purcell looked at each other. and we're like, this is actually our dream. And it's just, and I'm not even finding fault in it. There are some people, even that love hardcore. Yeah. Even that are great musicians. Even their dream is to be in a band, they are just not meant to tour.

That is a different, like, psychological, you know, mindset. Like, I want to drive somewhere in a van that costs like $900 that could break down anywhere that we don't know how to fix. we have no idea where we're going. There are no cell phones. There's no maps. There's no, you know, reconfirming your show. There's no guarantee that you're even going to get paid.

There could be a whole bunch of Nazis at your shows. And you don't even know where you're going to sleep that night. And you need to be with people who are like the Lewis and Clark. You know, we're like, we're going to do it. We're just going to go into the unknown. And so Purcell was like that guy. He's your musical soulmate in a way. Yeah, we were did.

And that was our dream come true. To start Youth at Today was our dream. So is the whole band kind of aligned in this goal of bringing this different message to hardcore? Violent children? No, no, what would become Youth of Today? Well, what happened was we took the guys from young Republicans and we recorded a record. And we just had attitude from the beginning. We had an attitude.

Instead of like playing it meek and coming in soft, we just came in sort of loud and we just came in sort of loud. arrogant. But with like a good intention. Yeah, it was mixed. We were teenagers. You're doing crazy shit, I'm sure. And it was mixed. And I got down on Al from SSD because he wasn't straight edge anymore. Actually, he was straight edge, but he was, I don't know, he grew out his hair. I mean, 83, he was done with hardcore. Yeah, yeah, he was done with hardcore. He called the end of hardcore. He got a jet ski, though. Huh? He bought a jet ski. Can you blame? Come on. So, and D. Y.S was not doing hardcore. So I just had an attitude. And no one was really straight edge except the couple random people in every scene.

And so I just said, you know, we're going to just start a strange band because this message is good. It's important. And I know we were coming off a little sophomore, but that's what we're into. And so me and Purcell, we're like all in. And we grabbed the other guys from his band, who I knew pretty well. I thought they were all in. But, you know, as soon as we got our first tour, which was in California, it was seven seconds. The drummer said, I'm not going.

and we're just devastated. Is that... That's in the book. That's the book. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, I want to rush ahead. I don't want to rush behind, but...

But you're... It's 1985, you know? And your... Hardcore is this new thing. Still. Of course, time moves... Yeah. It's five years old, essentially.

Yeah, it's really five years. I got into it probably in 82. Eighty-one. And you're deciding as a band, hey, this needs to change already. Already, it's like 1885. 85 to me seem like late bloomers. Right.

Well, you're kind of like second generation hardcore in a way, right? Youth and today as a band. Yeah, I think maybe violent children was on the beginning of that first generation stuff. But even that, because we were a year late, we missed a lot. A lot was happening quick.

They leave when you play at A7. Well, you don't understand. These bands press a thousand records. back then. And then you never hear of them again. Yeah. So everything was, we could get a whole thing about record collecting too if you want. Well, we're about to get there. Is this is, what is

New York's response at the time to the beginning of youth of today? Is like your radical optimism and positivity? Oh, that's a good thing because we had just developed, we played our first, we were a friend, I told this in the car, but I was

pen pals with Vinny's stigma when I was in violent children. So he He was like, yeah, you should come to, this is, maybe the Ignosti Front single had just came out. This is United Blood? Yeah, maybe United Blood didn't even come out yet. That was 83. It must have came out because I wrote Vinny's Stigma. Although, I don't know.

Back then, there were a lot of things were with fanzine, so you might see an advert. So I wrote Vinny's Stigma. I know. Their single was out. I wrote him letter, I love your single, blah, and he got us. I can't remember, but he got us a gig. Oh, he got us a gig at CBGVs. This is youth today or violence children?

Violent children. So he said, when you come to New York, come over my house. So I came over, and that was like going into another world. New York hardcore characters had such a, they were bigger than life. They were almost like cartoon characters, sometimes cartoon villains. Sometimes cartoon heroes. A little bit of the penguin, a little bit of Batman. So I'm walking in from my suburban home.

into the Lower East Side. And I'm going to Vinnie's house, which was actually nice because he lived in Little Italy. Yeah. And it was strong Italian neighborhood. And there is like Billy's psycho getting a head tattoo. Tattoes are illegal at this point in Manhattan. And so he's getting a head tattoo. Rogers, like, shoving, like, one of those little baseball bats that you club a fish with if you're deep sea fishing.

He's putting one of those in his shirt. And I'm just like, where the hell am I had I get into this place? And then Vinnie Stigma just like welcomes me into his life in a wonderful way. And he's going, hey, this is my pen pal. Yeah, this is my pet pal. And he got us a gig immediately. Not only that, but I remember Roger giving me

$100 for playing that show. I was like, $100. That's what openers are maybe getting paid now. Right. To give me $100. For a guy that drew nobody, I drew nobody to that CBGB show. Wow.

And Roger would get paid me $100. I was like, that is the most money, our band. So you were welcomed by New York Harkville royalty. Yeah. Well, I knew Vinny now and Roger and I knew Harley. So when Youth and Today comes along, are they supportive? Well, interestingly enough. So Youth Today I played, so then I invited, for Youth of Today's very first show, there was a club,

it was sort of like a towny bar, but they started having shows there. And Black Flag played like a couple weeks before on the My War tour. Sick. I know. There were literally 15 people at the show to see Black Flag. It's crazy. And there's a picture of me stage diving for Black Flag, like four people picking me up. And one of the local newspapers.

And you could name them all by first and last name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, we got to get Agnostic Front to play here, and we'll play our first show here. So we played our first show with Agnostic Front there. and then they invited us, Utah Today, to play CBGBs. Gazzina Gazada. And then, so we did like Rhode Island,

we did Albany, we did, both with seven seconds and seven seconds in Albany. And then it was our last show before we went to California for our tour, and we played at CBGB's, and Gnostic front of CBGB's, there was nothing better than that. That was the best of the best.

It's well documented. a kid. Yeah, well done. You can listen to it, you can watch it. Yeah, and it was like, it was joyful. That was rapture. That was the joy of me and Purcell's life right there. That's heaven on earth. That was what heaven on earth. I get it. I get what you're saying. And so when they had us play there, I just said, okay, we can play this two ways. I can just sort of like be quiet and cool and hope people like our music. Because I have to win over New York City. We've never played a new year. We've never played a New York City yet. This is our first New York gig. Or I can just go out on the limb and preach straight edge to a bunch of people who might kick my ass. And we just preach straight edge.

That's what's up. And we left. Nothing happened. The show was really good. People liked us. I wish I would have, I wish I had a recording of that show. Yeah. That's probably awesome. I bet Clayton Hat. Hat does. You know, Clayton Had if you're watching. You know Clayton Hat? No, but Clayton, if you're watching, please send it over. No, there's a guy. He was like, you know, a weirdo from the Lower East Side, and he had a hat store, and he embroidered all these funky Lower East Side cool hat. He's still out there. I think I just found him on Instagram, and he videotaped every hardcore matinee, and he would never release them. He's got them. He's probably 10 years older than me. Clayton. Clayton hats. Hit me up, man. Pardon this interruption. You know, I hate to interrupt an episode this good, but I got to tell you about two very important things. that held me down the past two months.

First of all, guilty party. The greatest menswear store in America, co-owned by Champ from Foundation. If you see me around, you go, Colin, what are these pants? What is this jacket? I go, I got it at a guilty party. And I used code hardlore, and I got 10% off.

This thing is from Metsby Schfonson. Okay? These jeans are from Studio D. They got new stuff every week. Free note. Iron Heart, full count. The list grows every single week with stuff I wear every single day. I got Nick's boots from Guilty Party.

People stop me on my tracks. Where did you get these boots? I smack them. I say, why did you stop me in my tracks? I'm headed at a guilty party and you just stopped me. And if you use Code Hardlore, you're going to get 10% off and free shipping on all orders over $300. And if you have a question about something, send me a message. message. Pop in the hardlord discord. Do something. I want to help you be better and look better.

And guilty party does too. Guiltyparty.co code hardlore 10% off. This episode is also brought to you by the great Mills Vintage. Not only the greatest archive of vintage hardcore punk metal memorabilia on the internet, it is also the home of every shirt you've probably ever looked for your entire life. And as we know in this culture, we love collecting things, whether it's a about ego or whether it's about enjoyment, we love it. And if you use code hardlore, you're going to get 10% off site-wide.

There's probably youth of today and shelter stuff up right now. You can't get an abused shirt. I know because I've been looking, but pretty much every other band we're talking about in this episode you're going to find something at some point. Also, bring your stuff into Vic. He wants it. If you're in L.A.

in New York in particular, it's super easy. He'll give you store credit. You get cool stuff. You keep going. I buy it, whatever you trade to him. And the cycle continues. It's a beautiful thing. Follow him on Instagram because he gets new things every day and they go fast a lot of the time. Sometimes it's me. So you're fighting with me and I don't need more stuff. So please go to millsvintage USA.com. Use code hardlore. Get 10% off site wide. Trade him something cool. Let me know you trade him something cool because I'll get it from him. And that's it. Back to the episode.

Okay. Can't Close My Eyes. Youth of Today's debut seven-inch, landmark hardcore record. Can you walk us through the writing and recording process from what you can remember? Yeah, I remember. Recorded in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Crazy. Some studio, I don't even know how he got there. It sounds good. I will say that was the funnest record I've ever recorded because we freaking knocked

that thing out in like four hours. You know, the whole thing, the best records, just like Ignostic Front. They've made a lot of great records. Nothing beats that first single. That first single to me is like platinum. That and victim of pain, or like, okay, that's what hardcore is.

That's what hardcore. That's the gold standard of what hardcore is. So with Youtha Today, I mean, I think I just did one take vocals on all those. Really? Yeah, I'm serious. It was like that simple. It was that simple.

And it's just so not simple. The way that you're singing, do you... You know, that was the beauty of hardcore. It was really like heart over quality. We didn't care about how, at least me, I didn't care how it sounded. I just, you just sort of, you can feel the energy of it. Which I think is what makes it sound good, because you care. I think so too, I think so too.

If Bo were here, he would surely ask how you developed your voice. Did you sound the same in reflex of pain? Yeah. I think so. Were you just doing like Kevin Crowley and a bunch of other guys and figured out as you met? I was doing Kevin Cowley, John Branson, Spring, a blend. And then you just stumbled upon. And that was just sort of like, yeah, I had no idea what was going to come out, but I was like, yes.

I was iconic. It was iconic. And then we didn't know what to do with it. This is an interesting story. So I called Ian from Minor Threat on the first, it was 1986. I called him up. I said, you don't know me. I'm a big, you know, you know a lot of my friends, like the older guys, reflex from pain. I love minor threat. I've always been straight edge, or, you know, before I even know what straight edge was, I'm into clean living. And it seems

like you really rally behind that type of ethos. And I feel like we'd be a great fit on Discord. And he very politely. I remember exactly where I was on tour at a phone booth. Are you sweating bullets talking to him? I'm just sort of like, you know, I should write a book on, like a Tony Robbins. Like, you believe in yourself. You can be confident. You can do anything.

I was like so confident in what I was doing that this is a good thing for the world. And back then, you know, you could just get people's phone numbers. Everyone's approachable. and, you know, everyone's reached. I emailed him and he responded. Yeah. Al from SSD had his phone number on the back of the record. Yeah, he did.

That's a great guy. He's a great guy. And so anyway, Ian was very politely said no. And whatever. That wouldn't stop me. I just crossed one off the list, went right to Al. Al, you don't know me. I'm the biggest SSD control fan you will ever meet.

And I want to be on your record label. I think our ethos fit. Same elevator pitch. And is he even doing it? Like, is Exclaim? He goes, well, let me just share with you what exclaim is. Exclaim is not even a record label. It's sort of just a bunch of bands that like each other.

We just use that as a label. There's no like central headquarters. How do I see? hear that? Fuck you. So you're telling me, you're telling me there is no actual exclaim.

No, no, it's just fans. So you're telling me, no one really owns exclaim. It's bands that sort of feel a certain way, feel a camaraderie. Yeah. Well, I feel that camaraderie. He's like,

okay, so do you mind if I put exclaim on the back of my record? He goes, no, I don't care. He's like, I was like, I was like, he goes, it's not mine. I don't own it. You can put exclaim. Anybody could put exclaim in the record. Guys, we just got to sign this.

That's what it was. That's what it was. I was like, you're not going to believe this, guys. We're going to be on exclaim. And the band was like, what are he talking about? He's like, he said, it doesn't matter. There is no exclaim. It's just camaraderie amongst friends.

Wow. And we were about to be. We were about to be on Exclaim Records. Unbelievable. So. Oh, God. And now, so where... I just remember that, by the way.

Yeah, that's unbelievable. I did some other interview, and I just remembered that crazy story. So now I'm like, we're on Exclaim. Now, the interesting thing enough is, the year before when violent children were around, we played with seven seconds. Seven seconds was hands down our favorite band because they were great. They had a hard edge. especially when skins, brains, and guts came out.

Just because that picture of BIM, of cover the record like that, I was like, okay, these are hard. And back then we just liked anything that's hard. And then committed for life came out. And I remember when the day that came out, I was like, oh my God, this is so freaking good. So me and Purcell were madly obsessed with seven seconds. When the crew came out, we freaking lost our mind.

And we played with them at the anthrax. And that was a freaking dream come true. And we budded up with them. they became my pen pals. You see kids, this is how. You communicate with people in the old days. You wrote them long-form letters, like pages of letters. Now if person writes me a letter, I don't even, I don't even like reading a long text message.

I can't read it all. Can you summarize this, please? And the emoji, please. It comes up. So anyway, can I continue with this? Yeah. Okay. Sorry I'm taking a lot of space here.

This is what this is for. This is all about. But you guys have, like, kicked me. You've kicked the boulder down ahead. I want that. And a lot of times in my community, and the yoga community, no one's asking me these questions.

So it feels good to get this out. So I became pen pals with Kevin. And we just came bosom friends. And we, and, yeah, we became bosom friends. Got a bunch of pictures. Yeah. And then when the crew came, not the crew, walked together, rock together,

I remember the day it came out. And that's what you did back in the old days. You like call the record story every day. Is this record out? Is this record out? Is this record out? Is this record out? So I'm in New Haven. And I'm with Jordan Cooper from Revelation. I'm with my girlfriend at the time. And my girlfriend calls me up.

She's like, you're not going to freaking believe this. I'm not going to even tell you. You just come to this record store right now. And I picked up that record and on the back cover the record, Steve Youth, I can't actually even remember right now. Steve or Kevin are wearing a violent children shirt. And I almost freaking broken to tears. You know, it's almost like, and it's hard to explain because nowadays bands in the old days, but imagine if you love Led Zeppelin.

Yeah. And the freaking dude from Led Zeppelin's got your band's t-shirt on. So they were our Led Zeppelin at the time, and he's wearing a violent children shirt. Then I opened the record, and there's a picture of me at the anthrax singing along with Kevin in the center of the freaking collage. Then he thanks me on the... It was just one of these things. Like, my life can't get any better at this point in my life.

And so when they came together, we arranged to play a bunch of shows with seven seconds. We're driving back from the Rhode Island show, and we're in Kevin's band. And we're just freaking yucking up with those guys. And Kevin's like, hey, I'm about to start a record label. You guys want to be on the record label? I don't know, Kevin. We're on his claim. It was like that, man.

We're on Exclaim. And I was like, we're on Positive Force. And I freaking lost my marbles. So I went from Discord. Okay, I turned down from Discord. Accepted by Exclaimed. But now getting a real offer from Positive Force. And that was...

And had he heard, Can't Close My Eyes? Yeah, we gave him the demo. We gave him the demo somewhere like an Albany. Actually, I can't remember what came first. I think it was recorded, but it was, we didn't put it out yet. Okay. Yeah, I think that's how it happened. So, you record, can't close my eyes in four hours.

And mix it. Oh, and mix it. It wasn't like a multiple, yeah. How do you feel about it listening back? I loved it. Okay. I freaking loved it immediately. How do you reflect on it 40 years later?

I love it. I love it. I love it. I can listen to it. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. One of the best seven inches of all time.

Thank you. Grateful. Give all the credit to all those bands that inspired me. And you know, you said yourself in the book, Ian McKay, never envisioned straight-edge as a movement, but it would evolve into something that would touch the lives of millions of people, realistically. And this record and youth today in particular are an important milestone

in making that happen. How quickly post, like, can't close my eyes, comes out. People have it. how quickly do you see a shift? Immediately. Really? Immediately. And you could almost like feel,

it's almost like when Mount St. Helm was erupting. It was sort of like there was a shaking first and like a, blew some smoke out the side, and all of a sudden it just blew. So even when we went to California, the record wasn't out. Oh, wow. But we opened for seven seconds.

I mean, we opened for a bunch of big, social distortion, you know, It was just a bunch of big shows, and there was, and Uniform Choice was around, they had a following in California. They hadn't released anything yet. Another important band, and they hadn't released anything. But they were sort of at a place where, like, they had it, they had that following, but they were already sort of over it. Which, even at that point, they were already. Which shows in their second record.

Yeah, you see it in their second record. So when you heard that screaming for change, that was sort of like them before their record came, out. By the time that record came out, they were already sort of, we want to go in a new direction. Crazy. Not even find a fault with it, but I'm just saying that's what it was. We were still waving the straight edge flag. Yeah. So you could, we just sort of like amalgamated a San Francisco, Arizona, Southern California,

excitement in the air. And is it, are the showgoers, like, can you differentiate the punts and the hardcore kids at this time? Where? New York. In, on the West Coast. In the West Coast, it's a huge different thing. First of all, New York has a look. They had a neat look, a style, and an attitude that was, I found nowhere else, you know.

I asked this because when you, I mean, we're going to talk about it in a minute, but you go back and it's different. When you return to the West Coast, it was like there was a youth that today was here flag planted and you were returning to it in a way, you know? It was. It really was. But that initial tour, the Seven Seconds, West Coast tour, the record's not out, and you're just kind of converting people. I mean, we played in L.A. And there was just, like, four gangs, referees.

It was just like a different world, L.A. It was a huge sprawl of people and had sort of a party fun mix. It wasn't like, there was a brand New York had exclusive that was very interesting and very unique. style of dancing in New York, only in New York. Yeah. It was like New York style. Yeah, in the step-down sick at all video, they make fun of California mosher.

Yes, it was a thing. We figured it out eventually. When in this process do you guys decide to go a vegetarian? Is that a unanimous? That was much later. That was much later. If you want to extend this interview, you've got to break. You got to like stretch out that time.

We are, yeah. But I will say that when we came back to New York, that's when it got. weird because we got back to New York and everybody was straight-edge. After we left New York, did that thing. Then our record came out while I was gone because I ended up staying in California with my girlfriend at the time. And Purcell was still in college and the other guys were in college. And so I came back to New York and I moved to New York City on my own because we had a family apartment in New York City that was rent stabilized. So I was paying $250 to live in New York City.

And I was just sort of hanging out in the New York scene. And that record store, some records opens. And this guy is like, I love your record so much. And I was there when it came out in... Actually, I was in L.A. when it came out. And then... Or Reno, rather, when it came out. And then I came back, and it was out in New York,

and it became really popular in New York. And the first person I met was on the street, just because I was hanging out in New York, was like Todd Youth. And Todd, I knew since he was like, I hate to say it now, because I have a 12-year-old. But I knew him since he was 12. And he was sort of like a runaway at 12

and a reform school. And he just got out of reform school. So maybe he was like, at this time, 13. He was already a good guitar player. He's a very unique guy. And he's like, hey, man, what's going on? I just got a reform school. And I knew him from the anthrax.

He would come to the anthrax when we became friends, and then I would see him in New York. I just got a reform school, and I'm back in the street, and I joined Warzone. Now, Warzone was always sort of like a, sort of a grungy, grungy old hardcore band that wasn't very, that wasn't necessarily great. He goes, but he's like, and he's like, yeah, we're straight-age.

The whole band's straight-edge. And I'm afraid, war zone or straight-edge? Ray Bees was like a notorious, not straight-edge guy. Sure. And I was like, you're saying rabies? Yeah, Raybees really wants to meet you, man. I was like, and Rabies, you got to understand. Raybees was old.

He was 26 years old. Right. You know what I mean? In hardcore years, he was old. In a hardcore year, in, according to dog years, you're 14, and the dog is like 80 years old. Hardcore years, 26 is 80. You're on your way out.

And you were already thinking, like, or maybe he's 28 or something. And you were thinking, he's 28 and he's still into hardcore. Like, is he a loser or something like that? He was just getting started. It just getting started then. And here he is. And he's working the door at the pyramid club with two big X's on his hands. Todd Youth has two big X's on his hands.

He's like, everybody's straight-edge now. And Todd Yves has introduced me all these other people who were never straight-edged who are now straight-edge. I was like, this is something's happening. And are they going, this is the Youth of Today guy? Yeah. Because everybody's heard the record? Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm meeting everybody now and connecting with everybody. And at that point, I called the band. I was like, listen, guys, we've got to get serious about this. The record's out. I'm on a book a tour immediately and start playing shows. And the bass player was becoming a psychiatrist. The drummer's like, I don't want to do this.

And so now it was me and Purcell again. And so straight ahead was a band. And we personally dismantled maybe one of the best hardcore bands of all time. You know, because straight ahead was a great band. And it is. Amazing. Yeah. They were, I mean, every band member of that band is so good.

And Tommy, as a singer, he was so good. Yeah. He might have been the best front man of all time then. He was 16-year-old and had like the energy of a wiry, you know, But crazy 60-year-old. Another drummer turned singer. So there's something in the water here. Yeah, he was, but he and Armand

played drums like no one I've ever heard before. Yeah. They're just like- Because Armand played like Tommy, right? Maybe that's how it happened. But it wasn't, in retrospect, Tommy was never a good drummer for Eutha today. Because he was blasted him through everyone.

I can't describe it. Maybe if I was a, maybe Sammy could in from Euthan today because he plays like, it's almost like faster than the song. It should be wrists, but his whole arms are playing. Yeah, it's like chik, chika, chika, chika, chika, chika, chika, chika, chik. And I wasn't even good enough musician to understand why. But all I know it was really fast and our songs sounded different.

But it worked out that when we did book a tour, he just couldn't hack touring. He didn't like touring. And understandably, I'm not even blaming him, because the first tour was we bought like an $800 van that broke down on the weight of Virginia Beach. And we had no idea where we were going to stay. We had no any extra money. And the van's broken and none of us know anything about cars.

So we got picked up by some punks we met who happened to be mechanics and had a place we could stay. And then we did all these other crazy shit things. like we stayed went to i can't north carolina it was another everything was a mess the the punk guys are driving us around their punk mobile and it was just like we were like me and priscilla were like this is the most exciting time of our life but i think it was sort of like eating i mean he was only 16 years old Craig was 16 years old and he was we had roadies that were like 14 years old i don't know how we didn't get arrested for human trafficking it's a different time it was a different time man so while While you intentionally carried the torch and spearheaded this straight-edge movement,

you unintentionally spearheaded one at the same time via a song on your record called Youth Crew. And it started a genre. Are you, is that something you've kept your eye on since then? Like the Youth Crew as a genre, even today, it's like, oh, we're a Youth Crew band. Oh, really? You've never heard that? I mean, maybe I have. Is it a real genre of that?

Yes, it's like a subgenre of hardcore. It's like we're a youth crew band. My high school nickname was Youth Crew James, because I listened to YouTube Today and wore straight-ed jackets. That's breaking news, too. I mean, I guess a youth crew band, but I guess the fact that everybody calls it, he, yeah, I guess the whole thing is very interesting and I know a little bit about it. That's a good, the song is good, good song. Great song, yeah. Yeah.

Let's talk about a song that didn't make the original 7-inch. We just might. You know why? Because I think the attitude in New York was, I'm going to kick your ass. Absolutely. And that sort of, we came in with that strong New York attitude. And then by the time, maybe. trust and walk together rock together came out we had sort of a change of heart and we were just like you know what

you got to pick a pick a side and we just wanted to and me I was growing up you know I was just growing up and like you know what do I really want to be this guy who threatens everybody all the time and lives with like resentment anger fear and you know and so that wasn't what they call that just I realized just like that's not I just don't want to be that guy And I don't want to promote that. Sure. Because whatever I said, I realize, like, when you're a singer of a band, your words have weight. Just like, for example, if someone to call me an asshole, it's one thing.

If my dad calls me an asshole, that's another thing, you know? Because from wherever vantage point you're from, your words have less weight or more weight. And as a singer of a band, I knew I'm responsible for the audience. Even at this time, you're having this much awareness of... I definitely was. I definitely was. So there's the basically a transition from. Which, by the way, is why I didn't like judge when they started.

They felt like their words had weight. And Project X, although it was a joke. And I knew it was a joke. I was like, listen, guys, some people are not going to take this as a joke. Your words have weight. And they didn't. And in the 90s. Oh, yeah, it was not a hit.

Yeah, the 90s straight. Yeah. And so anyway, I'm not even blaming because that's just where my head was at. So there's the transition from. kind of like this straight edge in your face, us versus them mentality, to more of a unified mentality. Obviously, moving into breakdown the walls, that's why the song was changed. It was just like a change of heart at that point I had. And even at the time of break down the walls, the whole idea of breakdown the walls was, come in. I'm trying, yeah, come in. I'm not

going to, I'm not going to just say, this is our straining scene. You guys are over there. I I used the thing that labels were just symbols of pride. Right? We're straight-edge. You guys are losers. You're not straight-a-edged. Get your life together. I used to think that labels were symbols of pride.

Only time I see they only served a divide. Right. So I felt like I had that insight from the time, and that was 1986, 87 that I wrote that, you know, record. But that's sort of like where my head was at. We just might just feel, it feels like, in the context of the full record, it feels like, don't mistake everything I just said for weakness, you know? It's like, hey, I'm very kind, but down here I might hook you up, you know, which we resonate with.

I get it because, and at the time I think it was written, there were people who just come into your community and actually look for a fight. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we just might. I got to tell the story about the text. Please, please, please. Because, so one of our friends, John Caution, very big youth of today fan, got the words,

We Just Might in time to forgive, and crossed it out, tattooed on his leg. Crossed out, we just might. So he, because he also feels that way. Did he have, did he get, we just might first and a year later? No, no, he got it all together, just crossed out. So, okay. Before Bo passed away, about a year ago, we were going to say, we got the opposite. And I know that might not be something you support.

You crossed out. You crossed out. Time to forgive. And we, and I already had a youth of today tattoo, so I just put it under it. That's funny. I want to get a picture of that. Yeah. So, but obviously, you know, I'm not trying to fight anybody because they're drinking.

But what always resonated with me as like a young kid was like, you know, all these, like, people in my high school and my peers were drinking. and like, you know, they didn't, they looked at me as kind of like, oh, this guy's a loser and outcast. Right. And, you know, because you said, like, you kind of look at it as a weakness, right? That's how I always took it. I guess I never took it literally like, you know, we're going to start beating people up

who aren't straight edge. But I guess because that's why it always resonated with me as like, as a young person. Yeah, I mean, you soft heart, but strong spine. Exactly. And I get that. We just might. We just might. We literally just.

We just might right now. You ever. Start flipping tables. So you've never been playing that song and just like saying We Just Might at one, you're having a bad day? Like if you're playing it live, you don't play that even time to forgive a lot, it seems. Yeah, I don't know. Truthfully, the band decides what to do. They just tell me what to do.

So if they put We Just Might On there, would you even think twice about it? You know it anymore? I might do it for fun. Okay. Well, I did. At the Straight Ahead show, they had the We Just Might art, the old artwork from the, and said we just might. Were you at that show? Yeah.

What a fun show that was. Yeah, amazing, yeah. I can tell you, I wasn't psyched to do that show. I did want to see straight ahead. How could you not be psyched to do that show? I'll tell you why. First of all, I hurt my knee. And it just re-aggregated, going bicycling and bike riding.

And then the day before, I just did this whole, like, spiritual program in New York City the night before. And my mother's also dying right now. So I've just been, like, in a different headspace. Yeah. She's 99, so it's pretty impressive. She did. She had a great run, born in, you know, 1926. So it was about to be 100.

So she had a great run, but the last four months, she's deteriorating bad. So I'm trying to go to New York City a lot and see her. Understandable. And I was just like, you know, my head's not in a place of hanging out and just seeing. I had such a good time just seeing all those people. It's almost like everybody's growing up, everybody's ego. was gone. Everybody just wants to reconnect and that's what it was like. Because back then, we all sort of were a little reserved and these guys are in and these guys are not cool. And

it's understandable. But now everything was gone and there was no weird feelings. I like embraced people that never even liked me and vice versa. And it was, uh, you grow up and you grow up and you get over it. Yeah. And it was like a very large YouTube today reunion, right? Because almost every member was in the room, right? Yeah. And that was right. Right. Right. I mean, I talked to Richie, I talked to Russ, I talked to Gavin, I talked to, you know, I talked to Sib, I talked to, I talked to Walter, I talked to Arthur, talked to, it's great. It's really good. It was like, I never had a high school reunion.

I left high school, never went back. Yeah, sure. And never, practically speaking, lost touch with everybody. This was my high school. These were my people. So you talk about high school in the beginning of the book and how you'd be getting bullied for for looking different or being different or dressing different. And then the youth of today imagery is like,

hey, we're literally athletes. Right. And we just might. Which is the antithesis of who you were in high school. Well, yeah, well, in high school, we were more like punks and sort of non-conformists and weirdos. Like we went out of our way to be weird. And in a public high school like that,

between getting picked on by every different group of people we were just like freaks so so then you're no longer freaks and if you went to like a mixed race high school mix all you're just going to get picked on by you know by whoever's the bullies of the

the communities you know sure you're like fodder true been there your bait you know but then again we just might yeah the iconic exed fist logo yeah who drew that Herbie Straight Edge.

I would hope so. Herbie Straight Edge was one of the, you know, like I said, there was like a random straight edge kid around. And so Herbie Straight Edge had this on the back of his jacket. He had like a bomber jacket. He was a skinhead. And he had in the back of his jacket. And we were like, and it just said Straight Edge.

Oh, it wasn't made for you? No, no. I was like, can we have that for a, he was from Pekipsy. I think he's thanked on the back of the record. Herbie Straight Edge. And we said, can we have this? this for a logo. He's like, yeah, sure, I drew it, yeah. It was great. My little brother in high school made the first silk screens of the shirts, and we made like

20. And it was funny because now that's become iconic Eutha Today with a fish shirt. We made millions of them. And my brother texted me and some random kid in Florida texted me and said, I guess my brother walked up to a kid and said I made that shirt. The kid was like what you're talking about he was uh I'm Tony Capo I'm my my I made these shirts when they first were made and so one kid texted me on Instagram and my brother texted me just all could walk into youth are you both sent the same story they both they both sent me the same story that's awesome I just met your brother and he looked it's something like you and came up to me so touring posts can't close my the record's out uh around

the nation. What are things like now with people having heard the music? Well, fortunately, again, seven seconds brought us on tour. We were exposed to their audience. And, you know, that's how bands get bigger. A bigger band brings them on tour. You went over their audience. And shows just got better. Oh, and then because New York City started happening, there was more straight-edge bands, straight-ahead was around. And, you know, sick of it all. not that they were straight-edge, but there was like a, there was like sort of a rebirth in hardcore. And as opposed to sort of like metal-sounding music. Because all the first-generation bands, the second LPED is metal.

They just broke up. And, you know, Ignatio-Rae record. Cause for Alarm. Great record. Yeah. And so, but it wasn't my cup of tea. And then Cromax put out a second record. And then it was just sort of like it was a free.

And then all these other bands, I can't. remember him at the time, like the guy from a typo-negative, his band. Carnivore. Carnivore. There was just, those were the bands that everyone was going to see. And so we started a whole different thing of a second generation of, I guess, second generation of hardcore at that time. And so side-by-side, gorilla biscuits, sick of it all.

And in the moment, it's working. People are sporting. People are coming up. It's working. And then, yeah. All right. Is there a single band you played with regularly from, like 85 to 80, from Can't Close My Eyes to right before break down the walls, that defines that

time for you? Would it be seven seconds? A single band from 85? Yeah, like that you played with enough times where it's like, that was our brother band, you know? Oh, bold, crippled youth. They were our brother band. Yeah. Because we, you know, we nurtured them into hardcore from, what happened was they played a show at the Anthrax and it was packed. And they were like, sort of violent children in that sense. Like, they didn't know, they didn't have it. They didn't have any, they were just sort of like little kids playing punky music

and stuff like that. Sax-pistols cover and stuff like that. And then we just took them aside, because they all went to Purcell's high school. Or they lived in Purcell's neighborhood because people would come up to us like, you know, there's like a punk band. They're like 13 years old. We're like,

no. Yeah, yeah. They go like a little right near you, Prislellan. So Cribled Youth was Westchester? Westchester, H.Cester. from Cotona, yeah. So it's just right near where Purcell lived. Wow. And so we just became friends with them. And we just passed down our sort of like arrogance.

Like our, I mean, we definitely had a straight-edge arrogance about us in 1985. And we just passed it on to them. For better or for worse? Were they, were crippled youth, was their name the other, like, Youth of Today, crippled youth? Is that the youth crew? That was the youth crew. That was the youth crew and anybody else that liked us that weren't in bands. A little embarrassing to even share this because they were kids, they were influential.

But I know when I was young, I wish someone went into my record collection and said, this sucks. Get rid of it. These guys stink. This is good. I had no one. I just bought records. And then, you know, back then you don't even have any money when you're a little kid.

And you're like, I wasted all this money in the shitty record. Yeah, but now if you only knew how much those things were worth. I know. You've seen what the can't close my eyes with the red text is worth? No. A thousand bucks, easy? Really? Yeah.

All right. Better than Bitcoin, the investment of, you know? Much better. I got a couple records I'm going to sell. I think I still have. You talk to me first. I've never left my collection. I can put into my kids' savings.

Oh, yeah, good, good. There you go. But anyway, it's a little embarrassing because we basically took the, and remolded them, the entire Connecticut hardcore scene got mad at us for doing it. But we very immediately told them, listen to this, don't listen to this, listen to this. And it was at the time where sort of like that youth crewy sound was very unique and what was cool and what was not cool and stuff like that. So I understand we got pushed back from that from elders in the Connecticut scene.

But we wanted a little brother band. They fit into us. We became best friends with all of them. Every one of those guys in bold were our best friends. I love it. Yeah. On the West Coast tour you did, when you talked about meeting uniform choice, that leads to wishing well records in some way.

How does that relationship start? You know, someone was just asking me about that. It was me. Just after a few days ago, I can't remember where I was a few days ago. I was doing some interview like this, too. What came first? The wishing well, weren't you going to be in? on new beginning records.

But basically, after the show, Pat and Pat, from Uniform Choice, loved you to today. And I think it might have been then that they offered to put us on wishing well. Exclaim, positive, forth now. I know, and at that time, I had just started, maybe I had just started Revelation, or Revelation was just like the beginning.

But it wasn't big, so I was like, wishing well was big, even though they probably weren't, but they were cool because Uniform Choice was cool and Blast was on the label and they were cool. Oh, they put out the Unity single and the Unity single was cool. And they made really cool t-shirts. Instead of just making your own cool t-shirts, we would just be on their record label. So that was

pretty fun because these were the days and it's hard to even imagine this especially for kids nowadays. There were no computers. There were no computers. You couldn't just lay out and typeset and go to your Google fonts. There were no fonts. You had to get these things typeset at a typesetter. How crazy is that? Like you could go to a guy and go, hey, I need this to say youth of today?

You'd go to a typesetter. Like if you're printing a book or a magazine, and they typeset it, and they'd give you a big book of fonts you want to use. You pick this font, and you want to lay it out like this. There was no computers. Did you have to do that for shirts as well? Yeah. Or you would buy the rub on letters.

Like you did today's single, that was a rub on letter. You know, all the, the Revelation Records logo was rub on letters. Damn. It's crazy to think about that. So. It's crazy. So, wishing well happened. So wishing well, sort of like we did that.

Then when it can't close my eyes. We're not, break down the walls. There it is. That was wishing well. Yeah. But very soon, because they were not into that straighted spirit that we had anymore. Then why do they want this iconic straight-edge record? I don't know.

I think they liked us. I don't know. Yeah. You know, they were growing up. People just, you're at that time of life. You're 19 years old or 20 years old, and you're still trying to find your own footing in this world. Sure.

So, you know. Okay. So the, here we go. 1987, break down the walls. Youth of Today's debut LP and another landmark R-Corps record. Now, Craigahead is on bass Richie Birkenhead is on Guitar 2

Where Porcel is Guitar 1 First guitar Yeah On the insert And Drew from Bold Is on drums And into another It's a dream team

An Olympic dream team Of hardcore musicians Yeah Tell us about working on this record With this group of guys Well I don't know how we found

The studio Oh yeah It's a weird one It was a weird, yeah, it's not far from where I live now, Milbrook, New York. Dan Nicholas? Dan Nichols. He only did this. And the Bold record.

Underdog and like a handful of other things. Yeah, and bold, I think, too. Anyway, I can't really remember much about writing the record, but, you know, back then I wrote all the songs, even the music. And I don't know how. I wrote, I wrote Right Down the Walls on a piano playing one. finger. Yes. That's how I wrote that song.

Wow. And then I would bring it to Purcell, and we'd just work it out. And back then, I will say, it was sort of easy to write youth of today's songs. It was a simple formula. It was a simple formula. You got inspired by other bands,

and you just do it your way. But Richie became sort of our best friend when we moved to New York. He was straight edge. And then we all just sort of like. And he was Porcel's roommate? Is that right? First Purcell was my room.

First of all, I moved to New York, and became my roommate, and then we had this idea that the entire band is sick of New York, and we're moving to California. Okay. So we packed up everything. I gave up my $200,000 apartment, and I moved to, we all moved in with the guys from Justice League in California. In Pomona, right? Because they're an in L. Yeah, they were, no, it was some house in Azusa, California. Some weird, I don't even know what it is.

Egypt. Yeah. But to make a long story short, we all moved there and we were all supposed to get jobs. Which leaving New York City, like, we're going to Azusa, guys. He doesn't look like a Craig. He's like a child's like... With his little red base. We had this idea like, yeah, we're gonna go to California and become Californians.

I got a job. I was the only one that got a job. But is this before Breakdown the Walls exists? walls exists or is this after because this I think it's before I think it's before Jesus I've got even a picture of us leaving we're all sitting on the stoop in my apartment and we're leaving and so we ended up staying out there I got a job at the whole band the whole band as far as I remember yeah I mean I'm sorry if I'm if some of you may like that's wrong you might be you might be you might be no today history better than me because I just haven't really documented even

I wrote my book. I tried to document the timelines as best as I could, but still get off on stuff. But I got a job at a vegan restaurant. And yeah, in Hollywood, strangely enough. Is it still around? No, but I randomly, probably 15 years ago, ran into the owner. And we were like, hey, we were like, have this strange connection. So anyway, We were living there. I started dating the girl I was living with, and they all moved back. They all moved back.

Then I moved back eventually. And we picked up where we last left off, and I started to think we... You know what was interesting when Breakdown the Walls came out? And this was the first thing that really broke my heart in hardcore was we were loved when we left with Can't Close My Eyes. And then we toured America. and we sort of spread the teachings of youth today all over America.

And we got back to New York, a lot of our people that loved us didn't like us anymore. We were sort of like over us and just like, you know, you guys sold out. You put out a record. And it was just like, oh, man. And I just entered the world of envy and where people are envious of you. If you do something good, you know, even if they're your friends, you just like, They don't like you anymore. We hate it when our friends become successful.

We hate it when our friends become successful, I know. So it was like a real, it's sort of like, it breaks your heart. It breaks your heart. That really, you're going to let this because people like us now. You don't like us. We've sold that with the same losers we always were. And so it was tough. And it sort of like built into my like, you know, future phase of life where I just sort of had to walk away from it all.

So anyway, but it did get, maybe we got a little bit more of a, we were still liked in New York, but not like a lot of the same people that liked us. At post, Breakdown the Walls? We were bigger than ever. Yeah. But some of our good friends were just, you know, not into us. The kids you didn't know were showing up in droves. Yeah, kids we didn't even know, we're just showing up now.

Yeah. The song Breakdown the Walls, you just told me, was written on a piano and then transcribed to guitar. Yeah. And that's the definitive Youth Today song, you know? That was a great song. Does it feel like an achievement upon completion? Probably, truthfully, upon completion, that record, I love that record.

Yeah, it's good. I mean, I passed out like three times singing. Like, like, passed out. Yeah. Because it was longer than a four-hour session, like, can't close mind. Not that much longer. I mean, I think it might have taken two sessions or something like that, but, and then maybe mixed it.

Which is hilarious because now, you know, it takes, yeah. Weeks and weeks. We're all ridiculous. Do you recall the first time you like held or saw the cover, the front cover of this record? Yeah. There was a little record store in my town, Naperville. There's an owner. I honestly don't even know what he did other than that, but it was in the back of his house.

It was called Busy Bee. It was a record store in the back of his house. Yeah. very small and the neighborhood I grew up there was a lot of older punks that where'd you go on in suburbs of Chicago okay and so one of my friends Nick Donahue brings me there it's where we you know we'd find all these gems and we were looking through the used CD section and it was the minor threat discography and then break down the walls and I bought them I believe I was in eighth grade and you see

these jacked guys with Xs one of them with X-Ein with X-Up. Porcel not X-Up. I wonder, is he bummed that he's not X-Up on the code? I don't even. And that's you as a guy, you know? I mean, you know, not to Jack, you have, you know, but that, YouTube today defined my childhood.

Right. And how it became straight-edge. And because I was a, you know, I was a guy who played sports. Right. And so what a better way. A lot of our fans were into like that clean living or athletic. and stuff like that. And they said, wow, it's almost like we gave them permission.

Yeah. To just be who you are and like hardcore too. Be the jocks. Be those. But be good guys. Yeah, be decent, you know, decent jocks. Because it's funny because I always like sports and I always lifted weights, but I never fitted, I never fitted in with those types of people, right?

So like, it kind of made it okay. Right. You know. Gave permission. It's okay to lift weight. And we always used to give Kevin. It's okay to lift weights. It's okay.

We always get Kevin Seconds hell because they wrote that song, I hate sports. That's true. And what's funny is that's part of the reason why I didn't like seven seconds. Because of that song? What's funny, too, the same record store, they had, weren't out in this alone, the Red X, which I eventually got tattooed on me that I found there.

So it was, I mean, it was a really cool. Busy B man. Busy B. Made shit happen. Because the best, and I wish people who are getting into this at a younger age that are new generation could experience the joy of going to record stores back then. I don't know if you want to take a detour on record collecting. I mean, that's, an album cover can change your life. Oh, yeah, and just something, the size of the album.

And sometimes you get, we would write messages on the record sometimes if we could or on the inserts, especially when we started Revelation. We're writing on each seven and on all our set on all our um so i think we printed the lyric sheets on our own or can't close my eyes and we inserted them we just might it's on there crossed out oh really yeah interesting in pencil all right so we it almost it was fun to make those it was it was fun to make those unique yeah you know it was fun to make the each one unique but the record stores it's like they only had hardcore records you had to you had to travel to find these weird In Connecticut, I used to travel to Bridgeport to go to a record store. You know, there's no record store.

It's in Amberie or anywhere in Connecticut. You have to travel to find one weirdo record store. But that helped you early on because nothing existed there but this one college guy who could not believe a band was there. Right. And then there you go. And again, to listen to music back then, back when there weren't that many records at, it wasn't played on the radio. and therefore you'd have to dial into these college stations,

and you'd know which ones. Like NYU had one, and WXI had one, and Stony Brook, Long Island had one, and you'd just listen, New Haven had one. You'd have to dial in those crappy signals at, like, late at night, and you're like, oh, my God, listen to what they're playing. And you step up with a tape recorder and record this stuff. And that's how you got music.

So as an album guy, you're a fan of, you're a record collector, you love music, you've been a hobby. your whole life this whole time. Now, people may, if you want to criticize something about me, you can criticize the next statement I'm about to say. Okay. And you may not believe me, but I really think it's true. I feel like me and Purcell single-handedly popularized record collecting.

Wow. And I'll tell you why. I knew some people that collected records. There was, there were, there were, it was like a random thing. It wasn't a big thing. It was like a random thing. And I'm okay to be corrected by this. Roger's got a pretty unbelievable collection.

That's all public. But listen. Yeah. I'm here. I'm here. But me and Purcell went to California on that trip, and we met some record collectors. One was Tim Yohanan. He had a math.

I'm not saying we invented record collecting. I didn't invent straight edge. I popularized it. Right, right, right. And so I know there's a lot of people that record collected. And I know people collected, you know, discord stuff. stuff, even at the very beginning of this stuff, all the different pressings of that, and all the touch and ghost stuff, all the danger house stuff, et cetera.

Misfit stuff. Misfit stuff. So when I went to California, I first learned about record collecting because I met a few people there, including Tim Johan. And I was like, oh, interesting. You got to understand, New York, I didn't think anything about records. You could barely even find records, but, you know, but that sparked something in. in us to start finding records and collecting records.

And not only that, when we started Revelation, we were like, oh, we're not just gonna collect records, we're gonna create our own currency. And Revelation became a currency. And what happened was we would go into some records and we'd put our want lists on the wall. Does anybody have this record, this record, this record, this record, this record.

If you're selling your records, And we just bought everything. And no one collected records back then. Then we said, if you have this record, we will trade you. So we'd go in there with a stack of Warzone's records, and we only pressed 100 on yellow vinyl. And that became like carrying a $100 bill. And so we used it, like I said, to basically make our own money.

And to put up those want lists, then me and Purcell, we went out. And it all sort of happened at the same time. Revelation started. We moved to New York. And no one we knew collected records in New York. There was people like Michael Bored and Roger, I'm sure, and stuff like that. But it wasn't a public thing like it is now.

People are obsessed in the hardcore scene with record collecting. So me and Purcell, there were a lot of record stores in New York that weren't really hardcore record stores. They were just like weird record stores. You could buy jazz stuff or punk stuff or oi stuff or eclectic stuff, rock stuff, weird, weird pressings of stuff that were definitely not on the heart core circuit, but if you lived in New York, you knew where they were. And we would go through these stores and pick out everything. We'd go through everything. I remember my famous story is I went into

this one record store, and they were famous for bootlegs. But I knew people didn't go to the store. And they just had singles on the wall, like you know, like you'd go through a filing cabinet of singles. And I went, and I know hardcore people didn't even shop at this store. And I said, do you have any bad brains pay to come singles? And he's flicking through them. And then I see him pass it. And I was like, right there, that one right there. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had no idea that they're rare, that they're worth. I was like, how many do you have? He goes, I got 10. I go, how much are that? He goes, two bucks. I go. Here's 20 bucks. Y'all take them all.

He's like, oh! I was just like, oh my God. Rob this guy, yeah. I gave one, the guys and crippled youth. I gave those guys. And then I realized, like, oh, I get it. There are these stores in New York that have all these things. And they don't know.

They don't even know it anymore. Now it's ruined. Discox's ruined. It's over. Now, let me tell you another good story, a record collecting story. I've shared this one before, but I might as well share. So there was another store in the West Village

that had tons of like posh boy stuffs and you know oi stuff and x-ray specs everything on the wall that was still hard to get english stuff we couldn't get we just bought the whole wall up me and priscilla and they had just like filing cabinets of records in the back but stuff that wasn't even on the wall they have no idea they have they have no idea what they have and i was like because what i had was the second pressing of the bad brains not the first pressing with the cover. First pressing on the cover. Sorry if this is a, you know, like when you're walking a dog and it chases a squirrel. Hey, I'm interested. Okay, this is interesting. If you're a record collective collector, I just paid hundreds of dollars for a together comp first press. So I'm, I'm all in, yeah. Okay. The single? Oh yeah. Okay.

Hundreds. So I was going to this record store. So me and Purcell are actually going against each other now who can get what and when. And so I went to the store every day. I said, I'm looking for bad brains. Pay to come with the sleeve. The guy's like, I have it. I don't know where it is. It's somewhere back here, but I'll find it for you.

I'd go in there the week ago, do you have bad brains pay to come? I know you're looking for it. I can't find. I'm still looking for it. Purcell comes in, and Purcell happens to dress like me and look like me. And the guy out of nowhere goes, hey, I got that record you're looking for. And gave it a Purcell. Oh, man.

And Purcell got the day to come to the sleeve. You still have it? I think we both got rid of most every one of our records. Really? Is that just like a material possessions? In the day, I mean, I got rid of the entire record label. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, we can talk about that a second.

You did not only create trade currency with records, but you also, for Revelation Records, accepted large old G.I. Joe figures or accessories. Large Batman Robin or villain figures. Batman nostalgia from 1960s or 70s or Munster's toys. Yeah. Well, I was obsessed with, I was a collector of stuff. And one of my things was vintage toys.

And because I was a child of the 70s, I was obsessed with G.I. Joes. And my parents just never had money to buy me them. So I had like one or two, but they'd all be broken. So I was like, I've got into toy collecting. And then GI Joe's were sort of like extinct at that point because they didn't make them like those vintage ones. Right.

And when we put out those records, the original records, not only do we trade them for vinyl, we put out ads like this. Genius. We got so much shit. It was unbelievable. Yeah, but now what's worth more? A large old GI Joe or Warzone First Press?

Hard old GI Joe's are worth, I think, worth a lot too. Okay. But I don't have any of them either. Well, let's, I guess, and I think Jordan ended up keeping them all anyway. For the most part. I think we'll, let's stick to Revelation for now, and then we'll get back to break down the way. One more question about the record collecting.

In the book, you talk about how, like, when you started to get more into Krishna, you kind of started to let go some of the material stuff, and you threw records into the crowd. Through records off the stage in the wetlands. What do you think the most expensive record, like today, that you threw off the stage? I can't remember. I can't remember. Because I think you talk about throwing the bad brains, seeing a couple of them, at least. Truthfully, I can't remember.

Yeah. But I do remember this. I was reading some spiritual book, and it said, is your pleasure coming from the self or from the ego? And I was like, well, my pleasures are from good, nice things. Not the ego, my record collection. But then I started thinking, when do I get pleasure out of my record collection? Do I get pleasure from playing them? I was like, yeah, I get pleasure from playing them.

I'm arguing with myself here, reading this book, and I'm arguing with myself, and it said, actually, I get pleasure listening to the music, but the records themselves, I never play because I don't want to scratch them, so I have everything on cassette. Where do I get pleasure from the record collection is when people who collect records come over and look at them.

That's where I get the pleasure. That's my ego. And at that moment, they became worthless. Because I realized, I'm just doing this for my ego. In the same way, some Wall Street guys got a really nice suit on, a very expensive briefcase. I'm just like that guy, but a record collector. Do you feel that way now?

Do you regret what you've done? In one sense, no. I think that was an important thing for me to do. Okay. You know, it's ultimately it's stuff. Stuff is sort of cool. You know, interestingly, and interestingly enough, like I love history. and I love stuff like that.

But someone like Harley Flanagan is pretty interesting. He's such like, he has so much interesting stuff that he's kept from the past. It's pretty impressive because I've kept practically nothing. Stuff rules. Not even my own records. We're big stuff guys. I appreciate stuff.

Yeah. It's just I think I was at a time of my life where I felt like this is not what I need in my life right now. Okay, no, I get that. So I don't regret it, but I don't, but at the same time, it's like, could have made some better choices you'd like to have a pay to come seven inch today

the very same year as break down the walls we're going to get back to break down the walls I promise when they break down the walls come out 87 87 while dedicated hardcore labels are becoming few and far between some are already considering hard core hardcore a dead genre

you decide to co-found Revelation Records with your buddy Jordan yeah was the initial goal preservation of hardcore? Or is it just, let's put out this war zone 7-inch? Initial goal was preservation of hardcore. Like, this stuff, it's sort of like the song Time Will Remember.

Like, okay, you guys, this whole little time capsule is about to end. It's about to be sealed. Let's save this sonically for future people. And Warzone just broke up. And we were like, oh man, someone's got to record Warzone. And so I asked, at that time, I was friends with Ray B's. I just said, give me all your demos. We'll make it into something.

You know, you guys should be, like, recorded. But once it came out, he had a re-excitement about the bands, and they started playing again. Wait, so the Lower East Side Crew 7-inch is demos? Yeah, they're just a bunch of demos, slapped together. So that affirms something I've heard that on a, on, at some point, you handed Todd Youth a copy, and he didn't even know that it had been recorded or pressed. I can't remember how that played out.

Which either way, that's awesome. But maybe. Him just being like, what is this? It's your record. Well, yeah, so we did want to do it for like the, almost like historians want to like, or archaeologist in a more real simplified way. Preserve hardcore by preserving war zone. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But then also there was, then as more bands came out, we're like, you know what, side by side's a good band. We should like document that. Grill Biscuits was a brand new band. We're like, let's document that. And there are friends, you know. Let's put out in your comp.

You know, let's document this stuff. And you're credited as a producer on the Lower East Side Crew 7-inch. Is that just because you produced the record? I don't even know that word mean. I didn't do anything to it. I just produced it. Yeah. Produced it.

I folded the covers. I helped design the crazy layout. That's production. Yeah, that's production. Maybe not the songs, but the record itself. I definitely had nothing to do with the music. Okay. I might have picked what song was first and what pictures to put.

They just handed a bunch of stuff. made it into... Okay. And then highlights from your... You're pretty brief time at Riv, you know, all things considered in the span of your life and the span of the label? Well, you know what it was. It was my vision to do it. And Jordan was like my high school nerdy friend that I got into hardcore.

You know, he moved to my... Here's a deal. I'm a missionary at heart. Yeah. You know? First it was hardcore, then it was straight-outher. Straight-Uraterianism, then it was Krishna. Yeah.

So, and I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. I'm a missionary, what I think is good things. And so, and maybe you felt like this too, because hardcore was obscure, you're always trying to turn your friends onto it, but you needed a little bridge to get to them. And so the new kid got transferred to my school, Jordan,

who was from Westchester, and he's sitting down, in class, and I walked by, and on his book, back in the, I don't know if they still do this, but you cover your book with a brown paper bag. On his book, he has an anarchy A and a dead Kennedy symbol. And I was like, this is fertile soil. And so I said, you like, you like dead Kennedys? Listen to this. And I gave him a whole, I made him a whole compilation tape the next day. And then that weekend, and he heard of violent children. He goes, you're in violent children. I heard you guys on the radio. You know.

This fucking radio show. Radio show, yeah. He listened to the... The catalyst. Yeah, and he was from Mayapak, New York. And there was like a little crew of kids there, too. And so when he moved there, I said, hey, you want to go to a show? My band, Violent Children, is playing Friday night.

He's like, yeah, yeah, we'll go to the show. So we drove him, we were playing with negative approach. And that was the Tide Down Tour. And that's how he got into hardcore, Jordan. So then we, you know, graduated high school, and we both ended up going to Southern University in New Haven, Connecticut. And that's when we started putting out the records. And so he was sort of like, he didn't know anybody. You were his old head, and he was just, you were guided.

He was just like introverted and didn't really talk to anybody and was sort of like, he was very sort of like Alcasty type of guy, too. He's still super introverted and didn't talk to anybody. But I knew everybody now. So I'm just like, you want to be in our label? We want to be in our label? You want to be our label? So I was signing all the bands. I knew Chiana's Strength because I lived with Justice League.

You know, I knew Danah Mahoney from living with him when we were in Youth Today. I knew, you know, I knew, you know. Is there something you look at as your- Love was in those first releases of those bands? After the comp. I knew sick of it all. I met sick of it all because I heard their demo and I was like, these guys need a record. And then G.B. would have been...

A new girl of us. Obviously, Judge. We let them play with us. Side by side. We let them play with us. Judge, the Judge seven inch. Judge got born out of that. So is there one thing you look at at your time?

And matter of fact, Revelation was going to be called schism. Wow. But I didn't like the name because I didn't want it to have that... That schism behind it? That schism behind it. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want it. I didn't want it.

I wanted something brighter in Revelation. Is there one key contribution, you look at as like your most important contribution to rev other than its existence i mean just signing the sign in the band's early ban the first few records making the big compilation the 12 and so why leave uh i left i left because um i had a god i had a god calling uh-huh i had a god calling i left i left what i knew to be like left all i left everything i left all my friends out with my family. How do you look back or look forward now at

the growth and legacy of what has become of Revelation Records? How do I look at it? Yeah, I mean you saw it all in real time how it exploded it's still this like iconic marquee hardcore label.

It's an iconic brand. You know, I never thought of it would be like that but it's quite impressive in a lot of those early bands gave it the identity. And kept the identity, which is important. It kept the identity, which is why bands make me 10 years later, or 15 years later, and in my eyes comes around or something like that, et cetera.

Okay. Let's go back to break down the walls now. Yeah, let's go back. Here we go. I like keeping it here. This is an interesting time. That needs to be sort of dug up. I agree.

Let's dig it up. And playing that show last a couple weeks ago with Straight Ahead and Corilla Biscuits and Underdog, it was like I was living in 1986 again. It was very cool. So. The funny thing is, all those shows, there was always, the Lower East Side had always an element of like, am I going to get my ass kick today?

There was always that element of danger at any step. Something could happen. Now these shows are sort of like, it's a family affair. This guy's 40s with this 17-year-old son that loves, straight edge and it's like it's like it's a family affair sure so the record comes out I mean I'm really fascinated in how it was made you said you like break down the walls like you you can't recall the writing and like the writing process really outside of I mean the writing

process I did on a lot of a lot of those songs I wrote when I was sitting in California and are you not thinking like oh my God this is a debut LP this is scary or are you just like yeah I'm I'm ready to write let's go all I want What I wanted to do with Youth It Today was make a single and a 12-inch. That was my goal, and tour. That was my goal, and that was it. I was ready to, and so I remember writing one family, I remember writing Shout It, I remember writing honesty,

just sitting at a base at seven seconds house in Reno Nevada. That's, you know, my memories, break down the walls I did on my mom's piano. And what other song is on there? Make a change. Make a change, all ridden. And yeah, I think most of that was written right after that can't close my eyes, just came out. Okay.

So you're ready now. You record. Eventually, Drew leaves the band. Yeah, Drew was great because Tommy quit in the middle of a tour. Yeah. That's like an interesting. Tommy just says, I can't do this. And he left.

And so we called Drew from Bold, and we were best friends with them. And we're like, we need you now. And we're actually best friends with this pants. parents as well. You understand, these guys were children. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And he rips at drums. It was great. He was great. And we loved them. We were like such good friends with them. How old is he? Maybe 14 at that time. On breakdown on the walls or going into breakdown of walls? I think so. Holy fuck man. And he's ripping on this. Yeah. Timeless performance. So good.

And some on this recording the snare like disappears whenever the parts are gone in. And then it uncompresses for like Oh, really? When it's by itself? Yeah. That's awesome. Drew exits the band, and you get a young Mike Judge on drums. Oh, we got a young Mike Judge. Now, Mike Judge is interesting because I remembered seeing him back when I used to visit New York,

and he always dressed like a full-on British skinhead. Yeah. And, you know, Mike is very silent. So he always just sort of like, has a sort of like, he's sort of oftentimes can be sort of expressionless. And so I was like, this is. guy wants to try out. We were trying out drummers. Yes. And then sure enough, he shows up at that pizza shop we all ate at at St. Mark's Pizza. And we're interviewing, you know, interviewing, him. And he's got a baseball cap. He doesn't look like a skinhead anymore. He's got a baseball cap.

He's got two X's on his hand. Looks like that. He looks just like that. I was like, freaking this guy, too, has become straight edge? You got everybody. Everybody became straight-in's. At least for a moment they did. Yeah. Some stayed. Some stayed and some sort of like, ah, I was sick of these losers, whatever.

Craig leaves the band as well. To focus on straight-ahead, he says. I don't care. I can't remember why Craig or how Craig left. He told me it was to focus on straight-ahead. But a young man named Walter Shrifles joins on bass guitar. Now, that was interesting, and Purcell can tell this story better because because Purcell was friends with Walter Brilibisket's.

See, strangely enough, I was sort of like, I don't want to call it maturing because that sounds a little arrogant, but I was sort of like feeling weird even within the hardcore scene. I was having a deeper spiritual calling, even at the time of break down the walls. Because straight as you started to be coming, you know, it started becoming a brand. So are you like, I've done my job?

Not even I've done my job, but just sort of like, I didn't really mean to create a brand. I like punk because it was sort of unique and nonconformist, but now we're all conforming. Now there's a definite uniform, a definite font, a definite look and hair, which was, I thought was just the way me and Purcell dress, but now people are adopting that dress.

That's youth crew. And it just start, I know. And it just started becoming less, I don't know, it's, I felt like, I don't, it felt constricting. You're talking about the things that like, you mentioned people not liking youth to today for a certain reason. You know, like they just had this inherent bias. It's because of that. And like you're down on the same things for your own day. Yeah.

At heart, I was like a punk trying to, you know, find myself. I just believed in clean living, you know. And so I started like leaning more into metaphysical things, spiritual things. I just felt like the life is about self-improvement. And so from clean living, I never felt like it was the, I never felt like that was the landing pad or the goal. I felt like that was like a threshold to something more. and people started treating it like it's the landing pad. This is the goal.

We hit it. This is the home run. And then it became used against other people who weren't like that. And to me, it was already sort of into spiritual stuff and Buddhism and things. I think, you guys, you're just getting trapped up in your ego here. This isn't the final goal. There's higher places to go in this. And I didn't even vocalize it that much.

And at that point, we started creating a brand, and people wanted that brand, but I just felt a little uncomfortable. How do we get talking about this? I can't remember what you were. We're about about the breakdown of the walls tour. We're getting there. We were talking about something

that led me to talk about an uncomfortable thing, but I can't remember now. We were just saying at that time how your mindset going into this time, where you were kind of down on everything that was successful. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I can't really remember where I was at, but I had something to say,

but it'll probably It was good. I bet it was good. It'll pretty much reappear. So, break down the walls came out, and I was sort of like, sort of, oh, I was saying how, oh, we were talking about how did we get Walter in the band. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.

So I didn't even listen to Grill of Biscuits or side-by-side, for that matter. I mean, they were just sort of like friend bands, but at that point, I was like, didn't Revelation put out the GBA? I did, because they were, but out of friendship. Sure. But, and this is, this might sound. It might sound arrogant, but, and that's not arrogant, it's just where I was at. Yeah.

I felt like I love Youtha Today so much and I love Uniform Choice, but pretty much I wasn't really interested in newer bands. I felt like between Youtha Today and Uniform Choice, I love those bands. Which is not ideal as the owner of a record label, you know? Well, no, because the record label, again, I was more of like a documentarian. Okay. I wasn't trying to like, at that point, I felt All my bands that I loved, they were already done.

And at that point, I was just sort of like, I was looking for newer music or newer sounds. And so maybe, and so hardcore was sort of growing under me. But I felt like I already moved on. Like. By 1987? I know, isn't that weird? It's crazy.

I know. Two years after you're saying that we've got to change this shit, guys. I know. And then it works. And you're like, oh, this sucks. Yeah. And it just became this branded monster. I didn't, I didn't necessarily want to be immersed in.

And so, Purcell said, you got to listen to that guy from Grillowice, that's a really good bass player. We should get him in the band. I was like, well, he plays a war zone now. And I was like, if you want to get him, see if he'll join. So he talks Walter into joining the band. And Walter loved you to say. Walter loves Youtha Today.

He fits more of our brand than War. Warzone, all dressed like skinheads, like British skinheads. And Walter is sort of like a Youth of Today, a skate guy, stuff like that. So I think it's a better fit. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I think it's a good fit. You get him in the band.

So he gets Walter to join the band. And I remember Priscilla just goes, Rodgu, you got to hear this message. Ray. Ray, you got to hear this message. And so he plays, you know, back when he had answer machines, it's Ray Bees. I wish we saved this. He's like, yo, you try to excuse me out of a bass player?

I'm going to kick your ass, Purcelli. When I see you, you are dead man. You are dead man. Bo, Biddy Bill! I'm going to get. Ray Bees threatening to kill Purcell. And I was like, oh, my God. For stealing Walter.

For stealing Walter. Does Walter know this? We all know. Now, we all know it. But I don't know how I... Devastating. Talked Ray Bees out of that one. But...

Horrifying. Horrifying message to get. Horrifying message again from Ray Bees. Who had some... But you smoothed it out. Notariety. And you were guys doing the Pyramid Club thing together at that time? Me and Ray Bees did the Pyramid Club.

How cool is that? I was the frickin' best. It was like me and Ray Bees' club. Yeah. Now, the interesting thing was, and this was the beauty about that crazy scene right now. It was a scene, you know, that music scene, we were held together.

I freaked them. The whole Lowery Side was. And you didn't agree with people's politics. You didn't agree with how they lived, what they ate, what they did, whether they were straight, whether they were straight. But like, in my apartment that I lived after that first apartment, I had the guys from YDL who were like

the skinhead working class skin, heads. And then I had Neil Nausea, the anarchist band. And his girlfriend, or his girlfriend, Angie, what's her name, Angela? She was a famous tattooist. I don't remember, I think it was Ange. From Nausea? Oh yeah. Neil from Nausea did, that was Amy was in the band. But no, no, his girlfriend was a famous tattooist. Okay. But anyway, we have two, like nowadays, people of extreme political sides, they all just want to murder each other. Sure. And then we had skinheads, and then we had punks, and then we had straight-edge, and then Tommy Carroll and Alexa.

And we're all, 10 of us living in this giant apartment co-existing. And we coexisted by our freakdom. That's what bonded us together. We just weren't welcome in the real world. We created our own crazy world. And even like Rabies, Jimmy, you know, the singer of YDL, myself, Todd Youth, we all worked as, you know, doorman, barbacks,

or whatever, in the Pyramid Club, which was a drag queen club. And we embraced the drag queen, so to speak, because they're a bunch of freaks too. And we're all sort of, that's just how the Lower East Side was back then. That's where you went if you just weren't accepted in the world.

And I think that's sort of a cool thing. Very cool. Modern culture would just sort of appreciate the world's going to be different. You're never going to find people. people that agree with everything that you say. And you can always look for differences because you'll find them. Twin brothers will find differences in each other.

But unless we can find some commonality, you're just not going to have a peaceful life. You're not going to have a peaceful mind. So anyway, me and Ray Bs were working there at the time. And I said, you know, what's this club? Like, what do these guys do in the daytime? We should do a matinee here. And so he knew everybody there. and he just arranged it that we put on shows there.

And it was like a little mini CBGBs. It was like CBGBs, except that had better backstage, because you could go downstairs. It was like completely private. And then it was just like the same layout of CBGBs, but like a little tighter. And there was no drag queens in the daytime. It was just an empty club,

and we just brought the whole hardcore scene in. And that was really great. Beautiful. That was a really special time. Beautiful stuff. So Richie Birkenhead, Porcel, you, Walter Shrifles, Mike Judge, this is the lineup for the Breakdown to Walls Tour. Yep.

Two months long. In the summer of A.7. You got to understand. Two months long doesn't mean you're playing 62 days. Yeah, but it's like 51. Oh, was it? I can't remember. I can't remember.

All I remember is. Breakdown the tour for me. You know, back then to book a tour, it wasn't easy. There were no phones. There were no cell phones. Everything was long distance. If you were in Manhattan and called Queens or Staten Island, I think that's a long distance call. If I called Danbury, from Danbury, Connecticut, if I called Hartford, that's a long distance call. Right. And so we all had illegal sprint numbers

given to us by our friend who was a computer hacker, and that's how we would... The Sprint in a way I made this tour happen. Sponsored by Sprint. RIP Sprint. I'm not in prison for it. Yeah. Statutes up. We had a friend that would just print out thousands of sprint numbers. And this was like, again, before. Then you have to call some guy. And there might not be, there's just a rumor that there was a 19 or a 17-year-old kid

that puts on shows in Iowa City, Iowa, stuff like that. And you call them, hey, we're in town. We're trying to get something this week. Can you get anything? But to do like a tour we do now, we're like. Like seven days are booked with seven shows. That was impossible. For us it was.

Like geographically, logistically, impossible. Not even logistically. It's like there were no shows. It just doesn't exist. It just shows didn't exist then. So you had to play a show. You had to find a place to stay for four days. You'd find another place to play.

That place is canceled. You show up and there's a bunch of freaking crazy people at the show. Stuff like that. You play, you've got a house. You're playing, you know, I think on that tour, we played a foundation of a house that's being built. You know, in Denver, you know, it was just like crazy trailblaze. Again, sort of Lewis and Clark style, just going through a show set up by 17-year-old kids.

And was it good? Were the shows good? Youth Today never had a bad show, ever. What a fucking unbelievable statement. It's a great statement. We never had one bad show. I can say that. It always.

Yeah. Wow. Every show is great. Unbelievable. Any key? Highlights come to mind from the tour itself. Okay, that show, that tour, let's see. We got Boom and Legion of Doom throwing deer meat at you guys.

Where was that? Stealing Richie's list, Paul. Oh, that was, we got all our stuff. In Michigan, we got all our stuff stolen. Someone broke into our van and stole all our equipment. Might have been boom. I can't remember who they are, but... That's what they say.

Yeah. We had great shows. That's all. I could say. We did lose all our equipment. Okay. But, you know, back then, whatever. Yeah. We were just, the show must

go on. We borrowed equipment. We never had, practically speaking, never had equipment. But there's not, there's, you don't think about this tour and go, like, oh my God, that's when this happened. You know, sometimes these tours blend together. And there were a lot of mini tours

in between. You don't remember a two-month brutal summer excursion? I've been doing summer excurses my whole life. If you have some things that could remind me of some particular places. Well, you came back to Southern California and... Where did we play? Well, I don't know where you played.

Oh, I know. Texas. We played in Texas in Waco. Was it either Waco or Lubbock, Texas? I think Lubbock. And we played at a pizza shop. And a guy put us up at his house. He was like a record collector, too.

And then we got a call. hey, do you want to play with blast uniform choice? Maybe seven seconds? They exploited. The exploited at Fenders. Now Fenders was the best place to play. Three thousand cap or something. Yeah, 3,000 people.

And we drove something in our van that had no air conditioning. We got pulled over in Texas. As one does. And made to pay cash for the ticket on the spot. And then we drove nonstop, which nowadays doesn't sound like a big deal. I've drawn to not to stop across, but nonstop in our van with no AC, just driving through that desert to just make it to that show. And we played and we started with Breakdown the Walls.

And I started by, there was a barrier. There wasn't a barrier previously when I went there and played there. And I still start with this barrier, break down the walls. Oh, oh, man. And it just went berserk. That was a great show. It was a great show. And you mentioned the first, like, coming back for the first time

here and seeing its straight-edge kids in Jordans and athletic stuff instead of what you saw the first time you went. Yeah, it was quite shocking. It was quite shocking. I mean, I did this. Yeah, it was quite shocking. And then we, yeah, it was quite shocking. It became a brand.

It became a brand. Okay. To your chagrown in some way? Yeah, it wasn't intentional to be like, though. It was just like, okay, we were all dressed in the same. now. There is a great oral history of this tour online put together by Tony Retman. So you can check that out. Interesting. It's really good. And it's fascinating. He told it? Yeah, well, it's a ton. It's like Mike Judge tells some stuff.

Porcel tells some stuff. You're in there a little bit. What little memories I have. Yeah, it's in there a little bit. But on this one tour, Mike Judge is sitting in the van, writing lyrics and realizing that they're never going to be youth at today lyrics and decides to start his own band when he gets home. At the same time, Richie gets the bug. When I get home, I'm going to get Underdog going again. Important tour. Yeah. It was important. And I was like, I was getting out of it. I was getting out of it. As a matter of fact, I think the band broke up at a certain point. Because I can't remember why we broke up. But there was something not feeling right in my heart about it.

And maybe it was everything we're talking about. It's sort of like the monster we created. That's so crazy that you agreed with that. It's like there's flyers for this tour that say, Youth are Today the most controversial band of 1987. And Rao, you're like, yeah, I agree. That's what the song Great Down the Walls was about. How can we be, how can we let more people in the circle?

Do you think you let too many people in the circle? No, it's not that. It's just like we closed the door of the circle so much, and we made it this. You know what happened was, me and Purcell love music, period. And there came a time, like, by 1987, where if a kid was getting into hardcore,

they would ask, is this a straight-edge band? And be like, no, it's a hardcore band. Not interested. And if you weren't straight-edge, it just wouldn't sell even. And I remember Dwayne from some records telling me this, they just want straight-edge stuff. They don't want anything that's hardcore. Even if it sounds just like a straight-age man, if it's not straight-aged, they don't want it. And so it created like a bubble within a bubble.

And now there's barely any straight-oge man. Yeah, so we could do it a little more. Whatever. Come on back. So I get why people sort of could hate me for that, and it was controversial. And we were saying, and we were being sort of like sophomore, and you shouldn't drink and stuff like that. We were ourselves 20 years old or 19 years old at a time where everyone's sort of exploring with alcohol and drugs and stuff like that.

But you're not preach. Are you preaching intolerance for drug users at the time? By the time break down the walls, no way. Okay, that's what I'm saying. So it's pretty, the stigma being like fuck straight-edge kids when it, like, in reality, it's just about like, hey, we, we want to live cleaner than the average person. You mean fuck alcoholics? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was probably only in the very beginning of youth today

that I had that sort of attitude, the We Just My Attitude. Very soon I just... Sorry. Very soon I just got over that mentality. I just chose not to choose to be. That's not who I choose to be. Hey, there you go.

You know. Okay. Before we move on to, we're not in this alone. There's a show that was brought to my attention by John Kosh, I mentioned before. I believe it's 1986 Albany. The entire banter during was about the GBAH. GBA, yes. Can you tell us a little about, was there beef? Was there something? It was just, that was like the young days. That was before I can't close my eyes. It was just sort of like, we just might. No, wasn't even we just might. It was just sort of like me

just being arrogant and sure. You know, back then, you didn't even. We didn't, just be, just be, just being arrogant. Sure. And back then it was sort of like, if a band came through, hey, when we get to the venue, can there be some food for us? What are you, some type of rock star? It was sort of like, and they, they're traveling from England.

Now I get it, because I'm in a band. When I go there, it's like, is your place a band could just rest for a second? What are you, some stupid rock star? Because that show in Albany, you know, my friend Steve from Equal Vision, He's just renting out a VHW hall in the middle of a ghetto for 200 bucks, and we don't have any money, and it's all coming out of our pocket. It's not like it's a big club promoter. So when somebody asked for a $700 guarantee and a backstage, we think, like, who do you think you are?

A regular band or something? You think you're like a band. What's funny is I think GVH historically, I've heard firsthand are like the best to like support and the band. You know, we're just arrogance. Yeah, you came around. Sure. I didn't know if, like, there was some sort of, like,

confrontation that had happened. I love GBAH. Let's face it. GBA's great. Yeah, great. Sure. Okay, last thing about breakdown. But I called them great big haircuts.

Oh, that's good. It was a good one. That's good, yeah. The Girl Next Door soundtrack, the movie. Oh, yeah. Absolutely butchers this song. Oh, do they? They chopped and screwed it in a crazy way.

Oh, really? For a scene where Timothy Oliphant is revealed as a no-good scumbag pimp. How did that come to be what Corman snuck that in there? You clearly didn't have approval over the way the song was played. Revelation at that point said, hey, you want to be in a soundtrack? They're going to give you some money to do it. I said, I'm all right. The only time I said no to something like that was,

what was that video game where you like shoot people? Grand Theft Auto? Grand Theft Auto. Oh, Grand Theft Auto 4, the one where Jimmy G is... Oh, they asked us to be on that. And I was just like, you know what? No. But that's good.

The station, there's a whole New York Air Force station in the game. I know. And it's awesome. It was the whole thing about... Yeah, I just... It's like maximum penalty, sheer terror. Yeah. It wasn't our thing.

I wanted to endorse. I got you. Great game. Yeah. I'm sure so. One of the greats. We're not in this alone. 1988.

Your book begins in 1988 in a way. Well, my book begins, not really, my book begins in violent children. But you talk about leaving the band. The stuff in India is right, yeah, you're right. It starts backwards. Yeah. So you would eventually return to New York. So the band breaks up, like straight up in the beginning of 1988, it seems.

Well, it's sort of in October of, October of 88. We finished the tour. I had planned on... You know, it was an interesting phenomenon because by February now, my father's been in a coma for two and a half years. And I'm getting more serious about my spiritual path. I meet some mentors, Krishna mentors,

that I really felt like, different than the Cromag. These guys are like walking their talk. and they're living the life and they're actually inspiring by the way they live. We're hardly introduced me to it. These guys are like living that life. Before I just thought every Harry Krishna was like the Cromags, the band of the Cromags, and those guys fight, you know, they smoke pot. This is awesome.

Yeah, for me, I was like, I'm not into that religion. I'm interested in alternative religion and alternative spirituality. I don't think, I'm into an inclusive-inclusive type of spirituality. So it can't be this, but then I started running into, you know, a lot of these early adopters of the Christian of consciousness because the teachings got brought to New York City before anywhere. So you can meet these sort of old-timers who are now in their 80s, who just first got into it in the 60s, also on the Lower East Side, which was right around the corner from CBGV's. So at this point, I was like, okay, God, why am I?

doing this tour at this point. I'm like I've just not my my heart can't be in this anymore. You know why you're bringing me on this tour and so probably about five days before the maybe a week before the tour we had a rodee R.J. who rodee for us in Breakdown the Walls Tour, the friends of mics from New Jersey and we bought a van, a new van. We had all our money we saved up for a van. and $3,000. Big, most expensive purchase we ever made. RJ or Walter Siv or something go to,

I can't remember who it was, but they go to like registered and everything like that. The engine block seizes or cracks, smoke comes out, the whole band. They brought a mechanic, just like, this thing is worthless. So I was like, oh, okay. Do you see this as a sign? I see this as a sign of God.

Christian doesn't want this to her to happen. Also, the guys, they weren't into me being into Krishna. Really? Even Purcell? No, Purcell didn't like Krishna. Purcell wasn't. He didn't believe in God. Matter of fact, I was told to dumb down everything.

Don't go on a spiritual. Because at that point, I was in, or at least the breakdown of the wall sometimes, I was into every weird spiritual, metaphysical, you know, Johnson, Livingston Seagull, Christ consciousness type of thing. You were putting out the vibe and seeing what came back, you know? I just putting out that vibe, reading. tons of books, you know. And then the guys were just like, every time we do an interview, we're like, Raghu,

just keep to like the straight edge principles here. You know, don't go off on your randomness. And are you- I even wrote, I remember writing a letter endorsing Christianity to Flipside Magazine, like about something, you know, supporting spirituality in music. Like in 1986, I was loved to find that record. They printed that. They printed that in Flipside Magazine.

You were just looking for something, you know? I was looking for spirit. Yeah. I was looking for spirit. And you found it. I did. I really did. Eventually, you came back to New York.

Yeah. So anyway, so at that tour, I thought it was a sign of ending. The tour was over. And then I get a call from Steve Reddy, who runs Equal Vision Records now, who said, hey, I heard your van broke. He goes, I got nothing to do, and I got a van. You want to go on? I can take you guys on tour.

And I was like, oh. No, I was like, oh. Because I felt like none of these guys, I have no one I can relate to. Sure. But Steve is like a little older. Sammy's a kid, 15 years old. You know, Walter's 17 years old. Yeah.

You know, Purcell, he was just not a spiritual person. At least at that time, he wasn't. But this person, Steve, I felt like Krishna sent me this guy. And then we just sort of bonded on that entire tour. And we drove from Connecticut to Miami. And we had a few days off. And I said, hey, I'm going to stay at this Krishna Temple in Miami. Does anyone want to stay with me?

And everyone's like, are you kidding? We're going to stay at the beach. You're thinking I'm going to stay at Christian Temple? And Steve, I was like, yeah, I'll stay with you. And me and Steve just said, put us in the kitchen. We just want to do some service here. And so we just washed pots for the entire, like, few days. And we had so much fun.

And we just had so much fun the entire time. We made some incredible people that we still know to this day. And the rest of the band went to the beach and got sunburned. And we just like, and that started the tour. And from then on, actually, I got so many funny stories. I think it goes to show that you remember washing pots at a Christian temple in Miami more than the entire breakdown of the wall store. I think that speaks to how you felt.

But let's talk about making we're not in the salon. You get, so Sammy's in the band now. Sammy's in the band, Walter's in the band. Richie's out. Four-piece band. This is, now that we're not in the Salone lineup is the same lineup you will see today. If you go see it today. Yeah, and you know what?

There was something very magical about this lineup. It really clicked. You know, there's like people bring their individual. carmas together and this karma was the lineup I felt and I didn't write every song unlike every other record most of the other records I wrote practically every song Walter wrote no more right Walter wrote no more he wrote I think choose to be banger yeah um anyway yeah I wrote a bunch I wrote probably most of them or how is the dynamic with the for you today I'm looking

More than playing the show, I'm looking at, I love these guys. Which isn't great? Because sometimes when bands have been around together, and even when they get big together, like, I cannot travel on the same tour bus with that person. But we do this because this is how we make a living, and we just have an understanding. I actually love those guys. Like Sammy, I feel like is like a best friend. He made this happen.

So thank you, Sammy. Sammy's great. Purcell, I love. Walter came to Indy with me for a month. Walter's great. I love these guys, you know. I still love Steve Reddy or Rodi. It's great. So your final LP, you've already fulfilled the original goal of a 7-inch and a 12.

I feel like I fulfilled my goal. But you got another one in the tank ready to go? I guess I was just at a crossroads. So are you not feeling it going into it? No, going into it, I was feeling it. Okay. Going into it, it re-triggered something in me. There's importance here.

substance here. I have, I have, we're back. We broke up and we're back. Poetic, poetic. Yeah, poetic. How does the, other than

maybe somebody else writing for the first time, you have this new lineup, are you, you're back from India? No, no, no, no. You haven't gone before the record? Okay, so that's what I say. Not, not just sort of dabbling into Krishna at this time.

as a serious thing. At this point, I'm like really into yoga. I'm into Ayurbanic medicine. I'm into Buddhism. I'm into Christ's consciousness. I'm into whatever. Do you feel pressure from the success of Breakdown the Walls? Connecting with so many people?

I don't know if I feel pressure. You just excited? I felt like the record's going to be great. Okay. I knew what I was doing, like meaning I know how to write a hardcore song and I know how to sing a hardcore song. I was like expecting this to be, you know, What was interesting was Caroline Records.

Yes. So why Caroline and not Revelation? Was it a matter of resources? Well, it was weird because I tell you, I'm not like a businessman. I'm sort of an artist and a spokesperson and whatever. But at that point, we had a bold record coming out in Revelation. We had the compilation

coming out in Revelation, the 12-inch compilation, and then we have the Youth of Today. The way it is? Yeah, the way it is, the 12-inch compilation. New York City Horror, the way it is. And then we had the new Youth of Today. Break down the walls. I'm sorry, we're not this alone. So these are three records coming out.

And we were distributed by important records. I don't know if you're familiar. I think they're still around. They became R-E-D. I think they got bought by Sony. I think they might even have a new name now. But they were a huge distributor. And these guys were like real business people. They were like genuine business, adults. We were just kids. They were adults with a huge, you know, big staff. They put out, they're the ones that started, what was that thing that signed token entry and agnostic front? Combat? Combat. They started combat. They were like sort of big business. you know, but they did our distribution,

and they were sort of like interested in us. They called for a meeting for us, or like, we want to start working with you guys and do the distribution. So me and Jordan go in there. Again, we're just so naive. And so I was like, well, we have three records coming out, and, you know, we got the bold record,

we got this, you know, either today, we got the compilation. We think they're really good records, and they're like, okay, we're like in a conference room, like at a business meeting. And again, we're just like... Talking about bold and youth... I'm about bold day. I have no freaking head on our shoulders.

And then he was like... And they're like sort of suits, so to speak. And they're like, okay, yeah, well, we'd be very interested in working with you guys. Like, what type of money you're looking for? And I was like, huh? Well, I guess for all three. I don't know. $5,000.

And I tell you, these guys just went with this. Yeah, we'll take them. And then they were like, no, no, no, no, they said, that's a lot of money, Ray. No. They said that's a lot of money, Ray.

Fuck off. They could have thrown a contract out and had them all. Yeah. But they balked and walked away from it, you know, only to really want. As a tactic. As a tactic.

Like, whatever I get it. But the same day, I get a call from the owner of Caroline, or the guy who's running Caroline. And he said something like, I'll give you $25,000 for just the youth of today. I was like, oh, we were getting freaking taken. Yeah. We didn't really, no one ever got paid. Yeah. We never got paid money.

So we never knew anything about money. 25,000 bucks was the equivalent of like 25 million bucks back then. Yeah. You know? Anyway. With inflation, it basically. truth of it all in the same way when breakdown those walls came out I felt like that envy people didn't like me for so reason and then when money came into the picture it brought out other

things in you're like hey well I wrote the song why wrote this part of the song well I pay for the band why bother drums you don't even have drum it just became like that and it just tainted everything which started off so clean just bunch of kids screaming about changing the world you know what I mean in an evil way or not in a bad way but things that were never there started to to surface. And I find that sometimes when there's success in a person's life, even that teeny success we had, it can sometimes ruin something. You know, it can become at the top of your game, and that very same thing loses the taste it had before it was that successful. So that tainted things in my heart a little bit as well. But you're still psyched going into the record.

Into the recording, I was still very psyched about it still. Sometimes you don't realize it tainted anything until afterwards. Yeah, but recording the record, we had a great time recording that record. That was another time I passed out recording that record. And it was interesting because Danzig was recording their new record at the same time. Tell us about that. Well, it was funny because, you know, we had this straight-edge thing, clean-cut thing where we love the misfits, but at the same time...

But he was all about Satan. We didn't like Gothic or Satan or anything like that. So we would write this anti-ante-goal. We were anti-gools. We call it like ghoul core. What do you look? Would you consider yourself anti-goal? You're pretty pro-gool.

I'm pro-gool. I'm pro-gill. I'm PG. Well, back then, because in that Lower East Side scene, there were people that were like goff or witches. Those were real goals. Those were the real goals. So we were like, you know, there were these guys out of these guys.

Oh, we and Purcell would call the warlocks. That guy's a freaking warlock. Which is like a really powerful thing to be. It's a good thing. That's a really important designation. But we'd be like, oh, shut up, you warlock. We see some guy walking in with a black trench coat and black boots. We'd be like, like, he comes out of this warlock.

And yet if he heard that, he'd be like, dude, thank you so much. Thank you. I've been worked really hard. I've been working my spells. I've got a calendula, night cabinet. But anyway, so we were writing, hey, you, you, you, that's what, it wasn't ghouls, it was warlocks, it was warlocks, yeah, F, warlock core, whatever, something like that. As if Danzig is walking in and being like, what the fuck?

Yeah, so Danzig's writing anti-strain-edge graffiti on the wall. Right. And so we just have this back and forth because we're recording at the exact same time. Now, the crazy thing is on that record, and you probably heard this before, but this was the famous Chung King Studios. This is where Danz they recorded. I think the Beastie Boys recorded there. This is where Rick Rubin brought everybody to record

from what I remember. And we were like, oh my God, we can get time at freaking Chung King. And we are so excited about it. And what we didn't realize is it's got nothing to do with the studio, it's got everything to do with the producer. And I think the guy who was... Les Pauls Davis.

Was the guy who engineered your... Was it? Okay. Well, I don't like them. The thing was so bad. We were shocked. Yeah. That first pressing was...

And it's like, could you not review and approve this mix before the pressing is done? I think we did, but it just... We didn't know... Sure. We weren't like, I don't know, refined musicians, I guess. And I think on that first mix, I don't even listen to it really that much. Sounds like it's underwater, kind of. Yeah, and you can't hear the drums.

And Sammy had to, so when they went back to redo it, they made them do this drums over. You gotta hear from Sammy exactly what happened. But they took the drums out, and you redid the drums. Can you imagine reverse engineering a record where, No! No, you can't! There's no click, there's no guys, there's no maps.

There's no click track. No one played to a click track. It was just he had to redo the drums. I don't know how they did it. But we went back in and redid it, And the guitar was so loud you couldn't even hear anything else. But it was just a bunch of noise. It was so cringe for us.

And everyone loved the record. I can't figure it out. And it's current and current, like, it sounds great now. So nobody would ever really know. Yeah, it just sounds really loose. And it wasn't supposed to be that loose. It was supposed to be a polished major label recording. So Les Ponce Davis absolutely fuck this thing.

I don't even remember Les Paws Davis. Okay. The No More music video. Let's talk about it. Oh. So how did that come about? That came about because that guy, was his name Dan Nichols,

who recorded Break Down the Walls, was like, if you ever do a music video, we've got all this fancy video equipment now. And that's when music videos just started happening. Sure. So we said, yeah, well, we're going to play a show at this club, The Anthrax in Connecticut.

And this time the anthrax moved to not like the art gallery space, but they got a big, fun place because the shitty thing about the old anthrax, It was like in a basement. So they're stage diving, which is the funnest part of hardcore when I was growing up, was not existent. It was not existent at that point. So that's why the anthrax, for that reason,

always sort of sucked. But when they moved to this new space, which is like a warehouse, it was like so freaking great. And yesterday I played there, and we said, hey, we're going to play there. We're going to film a song. And you make a music video, you've got to lip sync it to the actual recording.

So it's always a little cheesy. But whatever, one song with a couple of your takes, we just say, hey, we're going to do a song called No More, and everybody just got into it. We're going to play along with it. You got to just get into it and get into it and stage drive. And somehow Dan Nichols screwed up the sync track. So it's not synced.

You keep getting fucked on this record, man. There must have been some astrological. You will not be synced in this period. Yeah, yeah. But we were... That was Krishna talking about it. That was, yeah. But people saw that video.

It was great video. Back then, I think it was pre-MTV. There was a thing called Night Flight. And it was like, you know, no one had videos back then except like Adam and the Ants, the B-52s. You know. Well, you picked... You too. You picked the ultimate vegetarian anthem and used real PETA animal, like crazy animal footage.

I think, I think. Well, some stuff. stuff we shot in the West Village, which is interestingly enough later, it's a very trendy place to live now. It's called the meatpacking district because that's where all the meat markets were. They still probably have some around there too. That's where we shot it. And I ended up living there in the 2000s. So are you just guerrilla style like getting them butchering animals and stuff? No, that stuff, that was from the footage there is when we're spray painting on the wall. and when we're running down the street chasing the truck and Tom putting our hands on

Tom shoulder on was eating the burger that's all done yeah so yeah because that was one to be another question when Porcel goes like like he shakes his head who's who's holding the burger uh Tom boiling point oh okay oh okay yeah Tom come on man well he did throw it down he did say no more yeah yeah he did say no more he did say no one hey no one knew what music videos back for then it's fun look at any media look at any music video from the 80s We were all lost. It's a fun time capsule, if anything. It's a fun time capsule.

You mentioned... It was fun. Seeing a hardcore live show, that was pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely. It's awesome. Got some classic. Immortalized. Those are your friends are that.

People, Steve Reddy's stage dive in. You got, you know, Gus straight ed is doing a dive. I don't know. It's a whole party. One quick story about the No More video. Like the early Harm's Way days, I bought a VHS state from someone on eBay, and I think it had the floor punch final mosh.

It had the No More video, maybe a couple other. Crazy comp-com. And we used to just, we'd practice, and we'd put it in, and we'd watch The No More video all the time. And it was just like, you know, because I was before YouTube and stuff. How early days of Harmsway was that? Like, OG, 06, 2006. Power Miles?

Yeah. Wow. It's just like, I just remember, like, it's such a good memory of just watching that video. I'm just curious when the first time you guys saw that video? For me, 2005. Early teens. probably around the same time. 2005.

So that's like, that's like on YouTube or something? No, no. On a VHS tape. Okay. So I mean, for me, in 2005, I was 19. So, because before, like I said, all the stuff was, I mean, it was only documented. You had to dig or be given it. Yeah.

Yeah. Video cassettes. You had to care. Yeah. Now, we tried. We tried. You did a shot at it. It's great, man.

Great. Now, from finishing the record, do you feel rejuvenated? Or do you- Finishing which record? That record? We're not on this alone. Yeah. Or do you feel defeated by the process?

I felt like that wasn't our best game, but then I was shocked. Everyone's like, oh, this is a great record. I love your record. We can't stop playing a record. I was like, really? I liked my personal execution of it. I like the songs on it. I felt like the lyrics were very, very right on and to the point

and heartfelt. Why re-record understand and not together? I love to understand better. Okay. Yeah. It was more the merrier, you know? Yeah. Why not redo that one too? I thought it would be cool to leave something unique. That was not on another. That's the record collector mentality. Yeah, yeah.

Even in 1988. Yeah, that record. I was a sick record collector. It was that ego, you know? Well, you didn't re-record together because of ego. I mean, Revelation record was all about making records to collect other records. Beautiful.

Still is. Do you, okay, so now the We're Not in the Salone tour, June to almost September, 1988. No, that's a frigging long tour. See, you remember this one. I do this one break you in a way? No, I had already sort of left the hardcore scene in my mind. I was already, I'm going to give my life to God thing. and strangely enough, Steve did too.

That tour got him turn. It took me a long time examining Christian, reading Christian's books and stuff like that to feel like this is my path. For him, he was like, this is my path. Like after we stayed in Miami, he was like, I think for the most part, he was like, I like this, I can get behind this.

And when we both left the tour, he was, me and him had both. I think he promised Purcell he had lived in the schizzo. house for a month or he'd move in there so he paid that rent and after the month he ended up just moving into an ashram now what do you notice happening around the country between the breakdown the walls tour and this tour are the shows as you said that you never played a good show but the shows are insane the shows no i never played it bad sorry that's not i mean you've only played good show i've only played good shows there i remember that far show was great i mean it was a bunch of great

shows. Sometimes we play these weird places and we just choose. We're going to play it from a great show. Even in crappy little towns and, you know. So even if the show isn't good, the show is good. The show is always good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Unbelievable. To this day. This day. We just played a couple weeks ago. It was a freaking great show. It's going to be a great show. Here's, here it is. It wasn't that unbelievable. Unless you come, it come, it might suck. And then you'll see the only Sucky show. No, it already happened. It was great. Don't worry. It already happened. It was weeks ago. Okay, so do you feel on this tour that this record resonated the same,

as well as Breakdown the Wallast did? Well, I think the community was just bigger then at that point. So there was more people out of the shows, more people knew our stuff. But me, I'm getting more and more disenfranchised. I'm losing faith. Like, I'm in my big deal. mode. I'm sure people get that like, I'm sure the Beastie Boys got that after the third record, like, okay, big deal. Everybody loves us, big deal. A bunch of people hate us. Big deal. We've got these great record reviews. Big deal. We've got these horrible record reviews. You know, big deal. All these

girls think I'm cute. But, you know, I'm getting paid for this. We were much lesser than that. But it was the same sort of like big deal thing. Okay. I already played many great shows in my life at this point of my life. Like, you know, remarkable shows, you know, like memorable shows. So it was sort of like a big deal, like big deal. And I was getting a louder calling. At the same time, my father's practically dying, and then he ended up dying when I got back. And that was sort of like all systems go. I'm going to India. I mean, at his funeral, my passport from that age, I'm wearing a tie because I just got. back from the funeral. And so then I got my passport and went to India.

That was your sign to go. Yeah, that was my sign. It's like, now leave. Okay. That's 1988. That's 88, yeah. Is this after the European tour? No, that's before the European tour. Okay. Then I came back from India and just was sort of like, I feel like, I felt like I had some closing I have to do, some closing with the hardcore scene. Sure.

I just walked away and just told the band, I don't know when I'm coming back. And so they were just like, frickin what the f... Yeah. Because this is working, you know? Truthfully, they... I know, it's working.

The record. People like the record. And, you know, and they're young. Purcell's like my best friend. Yeah. And they all think at this point, like Ray's lost his mind. You know, now people go to India.

It's not such a big... People fly all over the world. To fly to India back then was like, going to a whole other planet. I mean, what you describe in the book is like, you're uncomfortable, you know? Oh, I was really uncomfortable. Yeah, and so it's like, you can,

you understand the Ray lost their mind thing because you're losing your mind while you're there. I mean, before the information age, you didn't even know what you're flying into, practically, unless you pick up a national geographic or read, you don't, you know, now you could just, what's it like in this town in India, you know? So anyway, Bam things are freaking crazy.

But I, and while I was in India, I feel like I have to, make some statement to the hardcore scene, and that was the final shelter record, which was the first shelter record. That perfection of desire was supposed to be my final record I ever made. And so I got

the guys from 275%, what's it called? 76% uncertain. I got those guys together, because they were my buddies from Reflection Pain. I was still friends with them. And Tom Capone, who was going to the Krishna Temple a lot, I said, hey, you want to play guitar on this record

I'm doing? So this record, so this record, Interestingly enough, another one of my favorite all-time recordings was I practiced every day alone for 30 days in my attic at my mom's house. Attic because I had a room in the attic. And I stopped for an hour a day to watch Star Trek and make dinner. And then I went back upstairs and I wrote the entire record. And I called the guitar. players together one day to play guitar players and the drummer one day to practice all the songs and then guitar players and the bass player

on the last day and that was it and then we recorded it in one day and mixed it in the other day and their shelter is born that's and your your goal with shelter is just to that was it that's it it's done wow and then now

so because that comes out in 1990? 1990, right? 1990, 1991, maybe? So how does the Disengage 7-inch fit into all this? Because obviously...

Disengage, I was already... That sort of came out at the same time, because I was already like... Was the goal like, this is our posthumous goodbye to youth of today, kind of? I had that song, my... In that record, I only wrote Modern Love Story. Really? Oh yeah, yeah, because... I wrote all the lyrics.

I wrote all the lyrics. Walter wrote envy, I think, and Purcell wrote Disengage. Endy is hard. Yeah, it's great. It might be the hardest. Sounds like a good production. Yeah, it's not my style of writing. Musically?

Not like I don't like it. No, no, it's just like it doesn't sound like something I wrote. Okay. So I can tell what I write just by hearing the song. I was like, I didn't write that. I wrote that. I didn't like that. You hear excessive palm muting.

It might not be you. So anyway, I think that came out after I was already, opted into Harry Krishna's. I still communicated with those guys a little and they said hey we did a record. Do you want to come sing? That was it. That was it. And same

with Ray and Purcell single. I was already a monk at that point. Because I was going to ask you about that too because it's like electronic drums. What was the influence for... I didn't write any of that. Purcell wrote that record and he wrote it

with a girl singing it. And I think the drums were much more complicated. Sure. And then the girl, he didn't like the girl who was singing it. Something didn't work out. He needed his best friend. Huh? He needed his best friend.

He called me up in the temple. Somehow found me. I was in Houston living in the Ostrom in Houston. And he said, hey, man, I recorded this thing. It's sort of weird. He's got a drum machine, but you want to sing on it? All right. I came back to New York and just sang it for a day.

And while he's handing the drum machine to Don Furrow, the batteries pop out and it forgets the entire drum programming. Yeah, and that's why he had to reprogram it on the spot. That's why the drums are like, boom, chit, do do do do, do, tchoo. Oh my God. I can't even listen to that record, truthfully. I mean, I honestly, I listen to it on the way. Yeah, it's fun.

I've read the reviews of that record too. They're like, just, whatever this book I was reading, all three records, they were just shit upon. Shet upon. Yeah, it's like reading comments right there. Yeah, never read comments. So you look back at Disengage and it's just like, I did it, I came back and did that for a day. No, I love that record. Oh, okay, good.

No, I love that record. Yeah. I love that record. I mean, I love the Ray Purcell record. Because to me, writing the lyrics is sort of like a sonic diary. Yeah. I remember exactly what I was going through when I wrote that song or when I wrote the lyrics to that song. And to have it sort of

like encapsulated in something you can play back and listen. Yep, that's what I was listening. that's what I was doing, I was 22, that's what I was listening when I was 23. That's what I was when I was 16. That's what, it's like a sonic diary. Yeah. That's what's cool about making records. Tells you where your heads at, where your heart's at. I feel like that's especially true with the shelter discography. Because so much happens in the 90s, musically. Yeah. And shelter kind of ebbs and flows with it, stylistically. Stylistically. Let's talk about, uh, so you write this record. I write this record. I write this.

record, but I gave it up. I'm done. I'm done with it. Okay. And your goal here isn't spread the message of Krishna the same way I spread straight edge? No. Not right away. Mine is renounced the world. Everything is illusion. These guys are lost. These guys? Meaning the rest of the band, the rest of the straight-ed scene. They're all lost. And I just found my path. but the more I studied the books from the East, especially the Bhagavid Gita, I found myself, and the Bhagavagata is a conversation between a warrior and God. And the warrior is put in this most precarious situation where he has to fight people that he loves on the other side. And he goes, you know what?

And he turns to Krishna and he says, you know what, I can't do this. It's like, I'd rather, why don't I just go and meditate and live in a cave and give up the world? I'd rather do that than fight. And you think Krishna being God is going to say, yeah, good idea, just go meditate. But instead he says, you know what? They're already dead. I've already killed them. I just want to see if you want to choose working for truth and light and me,

or do you want to just do whatever you want to do? because the problem is you can't live in a cave. You're a warrior. And unless you fight for what's right, you'll just fight anybody because that's what warriors do. Warriors are born to fight. In the same way, scholars are meant to study, and the same way farmers are meant to farm.

There's certain callings we have that you're going to do whether you... Like, I'm not much of a farmer, and I lived on a Krishna farm. And I was just like... Steve was more of a farmer, and he lived on that farm too. I could not sit peacefully on that farm that long enough.

Maybe I was still detoxing from hardcore. But it just wasn't my nature. My nature is to be a communicator. That's why I can teach yoga so much, not because necessarily I know anatomy so well, but because I can speak and I can give instructions. I can tell stories and stuff like that. I feel very at home speaking to a large group of people.

Sure. So anyway, the more I started studying the Gita, the more I realized, actually, no, that's what I was born to do. I'm born to be a spokesman and a speaker, and I was already doing it. I was already doing it, but because I didn't have any, because I didn't have any knowledge behind why I was doing, I was getting caught in my ego, I was getting caught up in competition, I was getting caught up in arrogance, I was getting caught up in,

I was getting pulled around by money, by sex, by all these things that naturally come when you become successful at something. And so I said, I just have to redo it, but just with a clear head. And so then a couple years later, after me being a monk, that's when Shelter was born. But in that time, you look at Youth at Today and you're like, that's not, this is not right for that message? I can't restart this. It needs to be something new. You know what? I was a little bit of the, like, because it is like. I know.

It's so positive. In retrospect, I said that to polystyrene. Because I ran into polystyrene. On my way to India, I ran into polystyrene from the x-ray specs. And she was a Krishna. And I was sitting, this is in the book, but I was sitting in the temple in London, because I stopped in London on the way to India. I was sitting in the temple and polystyrene walks in.

And she's dressed like polystyrene. It's like really eclectic, really funky. And me and Purcell loved polystyrene from the x-ray specs. We love the x-ray specks. I had posters over on my wall. I had every x-ray specs single. And she walks in and she starts sitting there chanting with me. We're the only people in the temple just chanting on beads quietly.

And then after a while, she gets up and she leaves. And I was like, I got to say something to her. I can't let her. I mean, people fanboy me sometimes. I'm going to fan boy her. And I went up to him and said, hey, I just want you to know. I love you. I love your music.

I grew up listening to your music. You've been a big inspiration in my life. I just want to say thank you. And then we just had this beautiful long talk who went for a walk. And she said, well, what are you doing now? I'm on my way to India. She's like, you quit your band?

I said, yeah, I quit my band. She's like, why? Were you guys like a party band? I go, no, we weren't a party band. We were actually very clean living. She goes, oh, are they a bunch of, you're vegetarian now? Were they not vegetarian? No, they were all vegetarian.

And she was like, well, why'd you quit it? It sounds like a good thing. It basically saying, basically saying exactly what you're saying, So is it not ego in some regard to be like, it can't be this. No, you know what it is? I think, like, for example, I don't think a bar is evil, but some people are so addicted to the bar.

They're so addicted to alcohol, they can't even walk into the bar. Because even if they're sober, they just make a line on the sand. I don't go to bars. And for me, I just was too immersed in that scene, too immersed in my family, too immersed. I just said, you know what? I get it. Okay. But I don't need a middle path right now.

I need to be an extremist. And I extremely just made cuts in my life. I had to make that line. And I had to learn how to, like, and it took me a long time to find that sort of middle path. And I feel like I'm at a comfortable place in my life. And it took a long time to get there. Because even after I lived in an Ostrom for years,

and I was really good at being extreme. Yeah. I had to figure out now, how do you live in the world? Yeah, yeah. You know? And it's almost like walking a slack line, because I don't want to fall back into my material life.

That's the reason what got me in an ashram. But at the same time, I don't fit in an ashram anymore. I'm trying to, like, make a living or raise a family or stuff like that. So it is sort of like walking a slack line at times. You don't want to fall much to the left or to the right. So I was still sort of in my extreme mode at that time for sure. Was there anything really wrong with Shelter or Judge or any of these bands? No, they're beautiful.

They're great. They were like great, great bands. But for me, and for the evolution of the hardcore scene, which I was a part of, I had to do a shelter record. Then I had to make more shelter records. And that professional desire came out on Revelation. Yeah. Does that experience make you go, oh, I've started that. I should do that again for shelter. I think it was just an easy fit. Okay. I think it was just like an easy fit. Like they'll put it out, though. But then equal vision. Then we started equal vision in the ashram. It's been a ride. I know I'm 60 years old now, and it's been a very interesting ride.

It has. You're doing great. How, walk me through those early days of Equal Vision, starting the label in the Ashram, was the goal, much like the preservation of hardcore and the preservation of war zone for Revelation? Is this just... In shelter, we were missionaries. Okay.

So Equal Vision was a. place for shelter to do the mission. It was a place for shelter to do the mission. And Equal Vision was a way we could release our own records. And it was a way that we can. I said, you know, I did it in Revelation. I'm just going to do it here. I'm just going to make it a God conscious record label.

That's how we sort of started putting out on records, putting out the 1018 record. Yeah, great record. Yeah. Crazy stuff, man. And it was operating, we practiced in an ashran. There was, you know, at that time, like, the institution of the Christians is sort of like falling apart at that time.

When I got into it, I will say, it was probably at its lowest point as a religious institution in North America. When I say lowest point, the master had died, there's been corruption, you know, gurus had fallen down. It was inherited by a bunch of, like, 28-year-old followers who didn't know how to run a movement. or they themselves came out of hippiedom. And so the whole thing was sort of like,

in the heyday, there was huge temples everywhere. But then after the master left, they became emptied, people lost faith, people wanted to settle down and have families. It became more of like a community rather than people living in a temple like monks. So we sort of came into these big building in Philadelphia that no one lived in.

And the guy who ran, it was very sincere. was incredibly learned. He thought we'd bring some life to the place, and we did. And that's how Philadelphia worked for us, and it was great. It was like one of the highlights of my life. And there was a huge Philly Krishna core scene in Philadelphia. How was that? So, I mean, that was the funest time of my life. That was super fun. The rise of Krishna core is not unlike birthing the rise of like straight edge being everywhere. But do you look at like your, your missionary work as Krishna is like, you see these Krishna bands start popping up. Are you more excited than you were seeing a bunch of straight-oge bands pop up?

You know, here's the deal. In the same way, I'd question the straight-edge scene, sort of with that discernment, like, where are they going with this? What do they want to get? What do they think a home run is? I still bring that into religious institutions. Like, are you doing this to fit in? Are you doing this as a God-calling?

Are you doing this to... Are you flexing an ego? I still carry that discernment with me. So that's always going to be there. Is there a band, other than Shelter, is there a Krishna core band that you thought nailed it? I liked 101. 108.

Rocks. Killer of the soul. Yeah. Come on. Unbelievable. Yeah. Excellent. When do you think Shelter found the shelter sound?

Because you've done that 10 records. Now that's an interesting song question. And there is no answer because you thought today had a sound. Shelter from that first record never had a sound. If you listen to that record, my desire was to write a record

that is just whatever pours out of my head. And every song of that, practically speaking, is different. And to that point, it was always very difficult to write a shelter record because there was no boundaries. Everything was sort of like random. There was no rules. There were no rules.

For better or worse. For better or worse. It's like, okay, how do I drive on the road? The left or the right. From wherever you want. Yeah, yeah. And so it created almost like every record was sort of like chaotic. People think, well, no, there was a sound.

There was no sound. Even our most popular record mantra, it's all over the place, actually. It is, yeah. I mean, you can feel. feel it sort of cohesive and it had a beautiful crunch and a bite to it. The production makes it cohesive. The production made it cohesive. Perfect.

It does. That's such a good record. Tom Sores at Nott. Tom Sores. And he did the judge record. Bright side. Best wishes. Yeah.

Yeah. And so Tom was awesome. You were signed to Roadrunner by Howie Abrams? Yep. Yeah. In effect. He was just making shit happen. He was making shit happen.

Madball. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How was the experience at Roadrunner? Great. Really great. Loved working with Roadrunner. And you know what's interesting about Roadrunner? They were independent label, but they had label.

They didn't license the record to other people. Sometimes you make a record in America, and they license it to Europe. We bite and stuff like that, you know. But they had record labels that loved shelter in every sit. you know, I'd go to Benno Lux, like Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland, or I'd go to Germany and have their own roadrun records, go to Italy or South Brazil. It's all roadrunner.

It's all roadrunner. That's cool. All have a publicist that's 100% behind me. And their American office at that time was super great. Especially in Montere era. That's like 95. My only lamentation. Talk to me.

My only lamentation is they didn't make civilized man a second single. That should, that, they should have made that a second single. Bangor. And gave it, put in more money and pushed that. But it's a would have been, could have been. The song I would put a second single, which then you're, then, then, great song. Then you're spoiling it. Metamorphosis. You know what?

What a fucking banger, dude. And I tell you something about interesting about that song. Talk to me. Here We Go was written in a day. Metamorphosis was written in a year. You can tell. The book is unbelievable. I wrote that song.

I remember when I finished it, I was sitting at my friend's house in Washington, D.C., and I could not think of it. I can't remember what part of it, what it was, but I fell asleep. You know, it's just sitting there and just fell asleep, and it was written in my sleep. Yeah.

I woke up and I said, that's the part. And I woke up hearing this part. And yeah, I love that song. I love the lyrics. It's song music, everything to me. I will say this. I hate recording records. Because after those early days.

Not four hours anymore. Now it's like, and I'm not a singer really. It's just like, it's not my favorite thing. I love to sing, but it's like I'm not born to sing. Sure. You know, and so it's always pushing my voice and losing my voice and going on tour and sucking on licorice root and drinking, you know, miso soup and hot tea. It's just, I hate it. Are you immune to losing your voice at this point?

No. Yeah, unfortunately. Oh, my God. I hate it. Yeah, I think once you, if you don't tour for a while and then you do it again, especially as I've gotten older, it starts to start. You know, retrain the muscle. Yeah. You know, fast movement.

That's right. And then if I lose, it's like, I can't lose it for like a week or 10 days. And then the stress of losing it makes it gone even longer. more stress in the studio. Like you're gonna, you got bad voice and you're in the studio right now. You're losing money. You're burning somebody. Not even losing money, but you're going to record something. Yeah. Forever. That's what's killing me. Yeah. You know, back then, by the time I'm going to some expensive studio, that means someone else is paying for it. Which means I'm paying for it's out of my pocket. But, you know, it's on my so-to-called, you know, major label credit

card, so to speak. On Montra. Yeah. A fella named Dave Desenzo played drums. Oh, this is a freaking story. Have you heard the story? Is that why you're asking? No, I have no idea, but he's one of the greatest studio drummers. Okay, you're this story. Talk to me. So, me, it's like Sammy

was playing. Sammy made the demo with us, as a matter of fact. For Mantra? For Mantra. There's a demo out there somewhere. But we really needed a full-time drummer, and I don't think Sammy wanted to do it. Because he was busy with... I can't remember. 95.

That was the 90s. Everyone thought they were about to break it. Yeah. And like... Some were. Yeah. I mean, we had Zach and Rage Against a Machine like became the next door.

Quickstand got signed. You know, like, is it going to be a quickstand or Ridge Against Machine? And then Rage Against Machine just because it's whole new level. Yeah. You know what I mean? Quickstand's bigger than we ever got. Into another's kind of always on the coast.

Yeah. And they got this huge deal. Yeah. But they never quite got over this thing. Yeah. But you never know. Yeah. Because you could get one song and that thing

sky rocks. Exactly. And so at orange 9 millimeters, it's like all these people that you grew up with are now getting signed to big labels. Yeah. So we're completely torn. And then we thought, what about Bill? And Bill was the guy from reflex from pain. Uh-huh. And he was considered in Connecticut the best drummer in the scene. Okay. And he, this guy could play so, He played the cool style too. He put a shitty drum set and he played so freaking good and so freaking fast. We were so always impressed by him.

Matter of fact, I'm one of the violent children's songs he played. I didn't and he did, and it sounds so freaking good. It sounds so much better than all the other songs. And so Bill was just always highly respected drummer in Connecticut. So me and Perci were like, bong. And we always sort of like was on Bill's case.

We had some, we always felt like, I don't know, but we felt, you know what, let's just grow up and become friends with Bill. And so we said, hey, you want to try out? I want to do this. And we were like, this is awesome. Let's do it. Let's get Bill in the studio. So we never went into a, quote, real studio before then. We were with Don Fury, of course, and we were with, you know, I don't want to say Don Fury is not real.

Don Fury is great. But this is one with a producer, an engineer. There's a budget coming from a major record company. We've never done anything like that. Get the drum tracks first, get the, you know, stuff like that. And so there's an apartment upstairs, and I'm staying in the apartment. I'm still freaking trying to write all the songs, get all the lyrics together, try not to lose my voice.

Purcell's downstairs with Bill. They've been going at it for like eight hours a day. And they'd come upstairs, take a break. I'd be making a food. Or, you know, you guys want something to eat. They're like, how's it going? It's like, oh, we got two songs down. It's going.

Bill's like, yeah, I'm a little frustrated, but we're going to get it. Go back downstairs. Three hours later, they come back. How's it going down there? Do you guys finish? No, we're struggling with some stuff a little bit. They come upstairs the third time. And then Bill's like, yeah, it's just like, I don't know.

I'm just, I don't know, it's not jiving together, not jiving together. And Purcell's just got like a blank look on his face. And then Bill goes downstairs and Purcell grabs me. He goes, dude. This fucking record's never going to happen. I was like, what he's talking about? He's like, Bill can't play the freaking drums. And the thing is, it's like Bill can play the drums.

But I remember the first time he played, Purcell told me this. He said, he's playing for the first recording a message of the Bhagavut. And Purcell's in the room with him, and Bill's, you know, miced over there. And the producer just hears, like, the first 10 seconds, and he stops the recording.

He looks at Purcell. and goes privately because the drummer can't hear, he goes, you want to do your band a favor? He's like, yeah, he goes, throw your germ around. I was like, and Percell, like, what are you talking about? He goes, this guy has actually no rhythm. And isn't that funny? Me and Persol are musicians this long, and we never even pick up on it.

Oh, rhythm. But if you know, message of the Bhagavad, message of the Bhagavad is like, dum chika chika chika chika, chika, chika. It's like a whole thing. Yeah. Again, I'm not like a great musician myself, so I can't really say. We know that Bill could play very early fast, but in that studio, you're playing to a click track.

Bill could not play to the click. So after five days of burning through the record company's money, Tom pulls us aside and goes, this is not going to work. I have a studio drummer that can come in here and play. play every song first take. And we were like a studio drummer. It was like a jazz guy. He goes, trust me on this.

He will play every song first take. Then we're in this weird personal dilemma. I know Bill now since the youth that's been some violent children days. You know what I mean? We were never super close. We always got sort of conflicts. He kicked me out of reflex from pain or whatever.

But I was just like, but now we're sort of like bonding with him. and now we've got to tell them we're going to bring a studio drummer. So what happened was, they recorded the whole record, but with Bill on drums. So he said, hey, Bill, look, we don't know how to say this to you, Bill, but there's three songs that Tom just feels we need to get a studio drummer in for. They're just something's about it and not clicking. You know, I know it's not you. You're going through a lot right now. Your mom just died.

Everything's sort of like, you know, we just want to get a studio drummer. I know a studio drummer is never going to be able to play like you, but it feels like something's in your head and you can't. You got some mental block. And so he played Message of the Bhagabat, letter to a friend, and a civilized man. Those are things he absolutely

could not do. And when we heard those three songs, we were like, first of all, Bill went home that night. This is the guy that played on Alpha Omega. Yeah, he played in Alpha Omega.

He's played in every shelter record practically since then. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so after he played those three songs, First of all, he plays much to the Boggabat. He just writes the whole thing down. He listens the song once, writes it down, and he goes, okay, let's record this.

Versailles like, you don't want to practice it? He goes, no, I got it. He's got like a music stand. And this guy hits the snare so hard in the exact same spot. Every time. That it makes a hole in the snare by the time the song is done. Like, it is like it's a bullet going through the same. whole repeatedly a hundred times, 200, 400 times. It is so unbelievable. And he's playing it

like freaking animal from the Muppet show. Like, yeah. Is that who it was, Animal? Yeah. Yeah. Just like beating this thing so hard. And when we heard those three songs, me, Tom and Purcell, got each other, he goes, we're scrapping this entire record. We're doing this entire record over. And I'm so glad we did. Yeah. He made that record. he's one of the greats he's the greatest of all time the greatest drummer of all time

then we had to do the next record we had to do the only drummer we didn't have him do is 20 summers past we should have him to do that record but the other record eternal and

Perth of Passion he did those records too how much do things change for shelter post mantra not that much interesting I think right after beyond planet Earth, things started changing.

In what way? For me, I was doing to the Krishna scene exactly what I did to the hardcore scene. I started to second question everybody and everything and institutions and institutional religion and things like that. Naturally, you know? Naturally. I mean, if you're an introspective person or an artist, those things naturally come up. You know what I mean? But at the same time, I wasn't against it, but I started to question it. And in one sense, again, in the same way I did it with a stranger, I feel like, am I painting myself into a corner here? And I started thinking of it like that. And so I went on like a Harry Krishna hiatus, I feel like for about three years.

or I had to really think deeply about what I, I still had so much faith in Indian culture. I had faith in Krishna, I had faith in God, I had faith in spiritual paths. I just questioned the structure of around. The institution and the- Institution of around it all. What does it mean to be evolved?

Can you publicly come off evolve, but internally have some, and you see people like that, publicly like this, but privately have a whole secret life. Totally. And so that's when I got really serious into a physical yoga practice, and I got really serious about martial arts. And those two things, because with your physical yoga practice, it kept you calm,

it kept you grounded, it kept you open. And with martial arts, there is no question who the guru is. If you beat me, you're my teacher. And if I beat you on a regular basis, I'm your teacher. Like it was not woo-woo, who's more evolved. the guy who gets the flower garland, you know, the guy, or the guy who actually can kick your ass. I'm gonna go with what's tangible.

And so that's my, that was my deep dive into Nogi grappling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and later more Thai, yeah. So Mantra and Beyond Planet Earth, you have a similar, you go through the same cycle again of like, I got it, this is. Mantra and Planet Earth, I was, no, I was very, afterwards, I mean. After, after, after,

After Beyond Planet Earth. So those records pop, and they're both on a major label. Yeah. They do well. The band, the 90s. The second record didn't do well. We got dropped for that. This is the ska song that did it?

It was the whole production of the record. You know, we became more of a liability than an asset. How so? Musically? First of all, it's like, and this is what producers do. They're supposed to see something in you that you can't see in yourself. Totally. You know what I mean?

But whatever it was, see, we never had to think about this before, because we were never trying to make it big. We just did what we did. But I think at that time and in the 90s, you know, your 90s, you're in your 30s,

and you're thinking, oh, you know, you guys are musicians, so you know the deal. It's sort of like, at one time you like, you know, you write, on your, you know, you go to another country and they say profession, you're like, I don't know, a musician, I guess. Carpenter, you know, carpenter. But then they, you know, at a certain point, when you've been playing the game long enough, you're like, what is your profession? I guess I get paid for music. I'm a professional musician. I never thought of myself as that. I never,

I never was one of those kids in high school that was, I want to be a musician. I was never one of those persons. I just like punk. But I know people who are musicians, they just want to be musician. So now, I'm with a bunch of musicians in the band. We're not monks anymore. We still have these beliefs, but we have to figure out how we're going to make a living, not as monks. All me and Purcell know is music. So this band's getting signed, this band's getting this. These guys, all our peers are becoming professional musicians.

And so I was like, all right, I guess this is what is it. And then we're looking, this is what Krishna has us here for to become professional musicians. So what are professional musicians? They calculate. How do we get bigger? How do we make things accessible? And we're watching peers. I mean, we were on the same label with White Zombie.

You know, we were on Caroline Records with them, and the misfits are... So anyway, it's one of those things where you're selling out because you want to get purchased. You want to get purchased, basically. And do you have, like a... Now, that being said, I like that record. Yeah. I like that record. and I like all the lyrics I wrote for that record.

That's a sonic Krishna buffet, you know? It's a sonic Krishna buffet. But it's even more of a Krishna, it's more of a buffet because we move so much different away from a different production. I'd be interested to see what that would sound like recorded at Normandy where Montre was recorded. Because Tom took us to this very, very wholesome studio in Woodstock.

where it was lots of a... They dropped more money than I ever spent on a record on that production. On Montra? Or on Beyond Planet Earth? Beyond Planet Earth. $100,000. By the way, that's nothing compared to what Quicksand spans. Of course.

Major labels spent. You know, Roadrunner wasn't a major label then. It was an independent label. $100,000 was more money than I ever spent. It was still a lot of money, more than I would want to spend. But that's when they get into these things that major labels do. And that's what some...

And the ones we hear about are the ones that make it. And what did Steve Ray Vaughn use in the studio? Oh, we went back and forth and I practiced playing in a kitchen. And then I practiced with this crazy instrument. Whatever. People practice and make weird sounds in the studio. That's what you do when you get to budget that big.

You just fricking waste tons of time and money and producers time. And then they get mad at you. And then people either, oh, like, this is a masterpiece or this is a piece of shit. You know what I mean? And then you just get hell from everybody. So, that was such a soft, warm recording compared to the crunch. And just the way the tides turned, people wanted deaf tones and corn. They didn't want you to sound more warm in the 90s.

I felt like if we made a second mantra-ish record, it would have been good. But it's all just in retrospect. Whenever I look at it now, in looking back at the seasons of life, I see, it's sort of exactly what I needed. because perhaps if I got bigger, it would have exacerbated the reasons why I hated the material world. Anyway, I could have very easily got sucked into that whole music industry again. So for me, as a attempt, as a transidentalist in training, I look at it back as sort of a blessing that I'm not like, I gave it up at one time that attachment towards, you know, and stuff. I walked away from it, and now I'm going to try to, you know, do it again. I was blessed to maybe let it go. Maybe it would have been, it wouldn't have been good for me, most

likely. That's my guess. So I spent three years sort of in a purgatory and doing better than a thousand records and then doing some two other shelter records. And me and Purcell, I'd say have I had a mild falling out and not connecting with each other. And it wasn't when you decide to stop being straight-edge, briefly? Does this happen then? Um, probably. Here's a deal. I liked straight edge. I was, I was re-evaluating everything about my life, even Christian consciousness. I walked away from Krishna consciousness. But I was never a drinker. Right. I drank a glass of wine, I think. I think that was it. That was the big crime I committed at that time. And you're Italian. And it's one of those things that if you are a fundamentalist straight edge, yeah, I broke the tenants of straight edge.

I was just joking yesterday. I was like, I should be sort of like by curious straight edge where you're like, I'm straightish today. I'm not straightish tomorrow. I want to practice being straight edge and not straightage. And then if they say, no, you broke the edge. Yeah, no, I'm back today.

I'm back. I'm back. I'm back straight edge. I'm back. I'm back. I'm got, I've got. You know, but it's like, where are you these days? Completely straightage. That's what's up. For years. Okay.

It's just, that's what I am. That's what I am. It was not. I'm not curious, straightage. Well, I mean, I wasn't yesterday. Yeah, okay, okay. I got you. No, it's just no interest in it.

Do you think 1985? But you know what I mean, like, we've painted ourselves in the corner with an identity for better or for worse. And there's certain times you have to step out of your identity is like, do I want this identity? Do I want to be a quote, Harry Krishna?

I want to be a straight-age guy. And you might say, yeah, that's what I want to be. And I've met people who've accepted the role of Harry Krishna as their personal identity. And to me, it's sort of like, I don't introduce myself, hi, I'm Ray, I'm a Harry Krishna. I say I'm a spiritual being.

If you ask, what's your religion? I'm a spiritualist. I believe in spirituality. I still follow the tenets of what I was taught in the ashram, but it's decades away from my identity right now. Yeah. And I'm sure if I was in an ashram, I'd agree with a lot of people

and disagree with a lot of people because everybody's individual, and I think the same is true in the straight arts scene. There's people in Straitisian, they're very kind, very loving, very open, and they might just identify, this is my brand, and that's okay, too. And there's people are like, you know, Stradich helped me get to a different point in my life, help me through some hard times. People were good with that. I think people have to, you know, I think these things are tools for help to people grow, ultimately. Well said.

Do you think that 1985 Ray, someone who was trying to make a positive change and inspire people, would be, be proud of 2026 Ray and everything you've been through? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love what I did, and I love what I am. Really? I really love every record I did, even beyond planet Earth. I love that record.

It's fun. And I love it better than a thousand records, you know. I love the eternal and the purpose of passion. I love all the shelter records. I love all the Youth of Today records. I love the Ray and Prasel. record. I can't listen to it sometimes. She just got a drummer. Yeah. She's just got a drummer. But I always just get a drummer. But I but I can, again, they're like sonic time capsules of where

where I was at and stuff like that. And I really happy with the the life I live now. Can I say one quick question about the martial arts journey? Sure. So what, uh, what belt did you achieve in Brazilian jiu-jitsu? I got to purple belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and then, I was with Eddie when Eddie opened 10th Planet. Okay. Because Eddie and me, we trained under Jean-Jacques Machado. Yeah. And Joe Rowan.

Yeah, yeah. And that whole crew. And they were just like, and so we were the older belts of Jean-Jacques. And so when 10th Planet opened, we were already like the senior fighters there. And then there were new people learning from the get-go there. So it was really cool to be on the ground floor of that. interestingly enough, strangely enough, and this is a weird, hardcore twist, was Gavin from Byrne, for martial arts fans, this will be interesting. But when 10th Planet started, which

somebody just told me yesterday, is a huge thing internationally. I don't even know. I'm so out of it, out of that scene as well, is that started at a kickboxing gym, the bomb squad in LA and Gavin was teaching at the bomb squad so I'd always see Gavin who I knew from New York and this is Gavin from Byrne Gavin from Byrne yeah and so anyway it was sort of an interesting start to attempt planet did you ever compete like like in tournaments or anything like that or I competed with with ghee a little bit okay yeah but you know it wasn't sort of my thing then I got into MMA for a while it was just like sort of but not competing just with all my friends who did Nogi,

we'd go to a boxing ring, and we'd just fight. For Krishna. Just fight. Again, it was the same, it was a good, it really assisted, I felt, my spiritual life in another way. Because there was like a tangible, you want to see how good you can get, and it's tangible. There's an outcome.

And where spirituality, something's sort of like almost mystical, where is this guy at, where's that guy at? martial arts was very grounded and yoga too was sort of yoga asanas were very grounded. You said before in your New York hardcore Chronicles interview

the whole thing about everything having a ripple effect. It was very nice message and this show in many ways is part of your ripple effect and hardcore well thanks man. Thank you man. I hope it and talk

too much. I hope I said something interesting. Oh, did very interesting things. You know, I appreciate your guys. I think straight edge is a great thing, and I think that all the bands that were straight edge and give that message, you don't know how many lives you probably have saved already.

Do you know that? Nobody knows. Nobody knows, but whenever you put out a record, you should understand that has a ripple effect. And there's people out there that will come up to you and say, that record changed my life. Even if a change of life, like, I was really depressed, and it made me happy.

Yeah. You know? Or even if it was, I was on drugs and you got me off drugs. I've heard that before. So those things are real things, so good job. Absolutely. You too. Thank you guys.

Last question for you. Sure. Your top four hardcore records of all time. Oh, yeah. SSD, get it away. Boom. Negative approach tied down. Boom.

Uniform choice. Screaming for change. Boom. Number four. Agnostic Front, first single or victim in pain. I can go either way with that. I knew it. I knew that was gonna be the last one.

Let's do that. Perfectly done. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys. Shelter. Thank you. Youth today, author, yoga instructor.

Can anybody go? Raycapo.com. You can go there and find everything I'm doing now. May not be your cup of tea, but you might be something. You might like the tea. Yeah, check out the book. Pungta Monk. Please do.

It's great. Yeah, it's very good. We're loving it. Ray, can't thank you enough for joining us. Thanks, brother. Thank you. Thank you. We're back.

Thank you for doing this. And we'll see you next week. All love to Beau. Always.