HardLore - SAMMY SIEGLER: JUDGE, Youth of Today, Side By Side & ...Limp Bizkit?

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

This is easily one of the best conversations to ever happen on this show.We stopped by Trust Records HQ for this incredible chat the great Sammy Siegler, one of hardcore's most prolific drummers to ever grace the throne.We dive into Sammy's origin as the Godfather of Open Handed Lefty drummers in hardcore, his brief stint in Gorilla Biscuits, joining Side By Side at 11-12 years old, the Project X 7", joining Youth of Today as a longtime fan of the band, ALL things Judge, Chung King and Bringin' It Down and his later work in CIV, Rival Schools, Glassjaw and somehow Limp Bizkit of all things.We're appropriately joined by my main man Mike Cesario of Twitching Tongues, Disgrace, Pity Sex, Forced Order and more to round out this mini panel of unique drummers.Thanks to Sammy for joining us and sharing so much lore about so many great bands and records. Enjoy!!!__________HardLore: A Knotfest Series, fueled by Monster EnergyEdited by Steven Grise Title sequence by Nicholas Marzluf• Join the HARDLORE PATREON to watch every single weekly episode early and ad-free, alongside exclusive monthly episodes!• Join the HARDLORE DISCORD! • HardLore Official Website/HardLore Records store• Get 15% off the custom drum kit of your dreams with SJC DRUMS!• Visit TRUST RECORDS to pick up reissues and merch from countless legendary hardcore bands00:00:00 - Start00:03:27 - Discovering Hardcore & Drumming in '80s NYC00:11:14 - Finding Straight Edge00:18:11 - GORILLA BISCUITS00:23:14 - SIDE BY SIDE00:33:23 - You're Only Young Once00:38:46 - The Spirit of 198800:43:51 - The Way It Is Compilation / Side By Side Reunion00:47:17 - Pardon This Interruption...00:50:14 - PROJECT X00:58:24 - YOUTH OF TODAY01:02:39 - We're Not In This Alone01:13:58 - Youth Crew01:19:41 - We're Not In This Alone Tour01:27:27 - Youth of Today Breaking Up01:28:44 - JUDGE01:33:01 - The Earliest Version of "Metallic Hardcore"01:38:51 - Chung King Can Suck It01:47:16 - Bringin' It Down, There Will Be Quiet, The End of Judge01:52:12 - Judge Covering Led Zeppelin01:58:05 - Sammy's First Heartbreaking Edgebreak02:03:39 - Disengage02:07:53 - Breaking Edge & SHELTER02:23:41 - GLASSJAW02:32:08 - LIMP BIZKIT??? (and RIVAL SCHOOLS)02:43:26 - The Knicks02:45:19 - Moshing02:47:59 - Sammy's Unexpected Influences02:50:11 - What Recording Represents Sammy the Most?02:55:44 - Top 4 Hardcore Records02:59:05 - DRUM TALK

Hello, beautiful people, and welcome back to Hardlore. We are in for such an incredible treat this week. This is by far one of my favorite conversations we have ever had on the show. We are joined this week by the great, the iconic, the very unique, Sammy Siegler, one of the most prolific hardcore drummers of all time. Playing on records like Youth of Today, we're not in this alone. My fingers just cracked talking about that. Sammy, he's so incredible. Judge, bringing it down, side by side, you're only young once. Rival School, Siv, Project X, the list goes on. The lore per minute ratio in this episode, the LPM, if you will, is truly off the charts. We're joined by my buddy Mike Cesario from Twitching Tungs, Disgrace, Forced Order, and many more as co-hosts to talk drums, music, stories, hardcore, youth crew, limp biscuits. somehow. Now, without further ado, join us in the beautiful Trust Records headquarters and enjoy this unbelievable episode. It's Hardlord Time. How you doing, Bo? What a treat we have this week,

ladies and gentlemen and everyone else. Let me first introduce my guest co-host. You know him, you love him. My beloved Michael Cesario of twitching tongues, disgrace, forced order, pity sex, many more before and after. Thanks for being here. Thanks, bro. My brother in Drum appropriately here to interview another brother in Drum. One of the greats. Simply put

one of the most unique and influential hardcore drummers of all time. From bands like Youth of Today, side by side, Judge and many more, Sammy Siegler, aka the youth.

Thanks for having me, guys. Thanks for being here. Good times. Appreciate it. How you doing? I'm good. I'm chilling. You just got back from the unction?

Judge was just playing a little jaunt with integrity and strife. We were in Denver and Salt Lake City in Boise, Idaho. How common is it that you played Denver, Salt Lake City, and Boise, Idaho? How come? How common? Oh, not that often. Definitely not Boise. I feel like I did the very first warped tour with Siv in 95.

and we had a day off in Boise. We all went whitewater rafting. But I think that was the last time I was in Boise. I don't think I've ever played. How were the shows? They were really cool. The Boise one was kind of cool because we set up on the floor.

It was sort of like this VFW hall and it was really just, it was bugged out. But it was really good. Salt Lake City's got a great scene. Denver was awesome. The altitude kind of gets you. You're sort of just like, yeah, I'm getting lightheaded.

It's crazy. A floor show. Pretty cool. Yeah, floor shows are the new station. They're back. They're back. That's hard. Let's go back in time here a little bit, Sam.

Let's start from the beginning. Okay. You were born in 1973, making you a literal child during your earliest years and the early years of hardcore. Right. How do you stumble upon this wacky world? I think I attribute a lot of it to growing up in New York City. I mean, I grew up downtown Manhattan in the 70s in Greenwich Village.

So, you know, you kind of grew up faster, exposed to a lot of stuff. in New York, I have an older sister. So those kind of ingredients, I think, just sort of kicked me into just like, let's go, life, you know? Yeah, like my dad's family, my great-grandfather, they started this moving-in-storage business. Like, they bought a warehouse in 1875 and started Siegela Brothers moving in storage. Got passed down on my grandfather and his brother, my dad and his brother. But that was on West 11th Street, like in the heart of Greenwich Village.

So, you know, when I was a kid, I would go there and, you know, I went to school right around there. just went to nursery school on that block and this and that. But my dad plays drums, my grandfather plays drums. Right. So. Destiny. Yeah. So, like, it was all, you know, just to kind of jump ahead, like my, I think I was nine, my parents got divorced. So my dad ultimately took a floor in that warehouse and threw some sheet rock up and basically made it his sort of like, you know, kind of bachelor pad. This is where dad lives now. But again, he played drums. So his drums were set up.

So kind of I would go there and I was able to play, and he would play. And we could play late because the front of it just looked like a warehouse. So people, you know, people would get pissed. They didn't know where the sound was coming. You'd see people just like, what the fuck's going on up there? But we were able to play, and then later ended up writing, you know, which we can get to. But, like, you know, Judge bringing it down was written in that warehouse, the back cover of the distance. This is an important room.

It's important warehouse. Yeah, definitely. She code to play in the winter. Yeah, especially in New York City, too. And I think that also, like, kind of maybe was added to, made me a little more desirable. As far as a drummer, it's like, all right, he could play, can stand to be around the kid. and he's got a rehearsal space. I feel like it's hard enough to get around with gear in New York.

It's all way more. I mean, I moved to L.A. like 14 years ago, and it's just amazing. You're just looking back, like, yes, it was just, it was a grind. Like, I was thinking a lot about this place called Giant Studios on 14th Street where we all used to rehearse and the elevator would go out. And, you know, you'd get back after a gig at 2, 3 in the morning, after bring the stuff up the stairs or get stuck in the elevator. Yeah.

You know, just like so many, yeah, so many things, definitely. But that warehouse was really special. And, you know, again, like my dad and my grandfather kind of got me on this path to play drums. Yeah, let's talk about it. Sure. So are they right-handed? They are right-handed. So when I was a kid, I was like, what the hell happened to you, you know?

I think it's pretty simple. I mean, I remember going sitting on my dad's kid. He had this old, like, Slingerland kit. And I was like, okay, cool drums. And I would just kind of sit on it. And you're, you know, I'm lefty, so that's doing more movement. So I'm going to put that in the high hat that's moving a lot. Now I'm playing like just some pocket and it's cool.

And it's right here. Why would you not use this hand? Why are you going to cross over? The feet made sense, right foot on the kick, left foot on the high hat. But then when I got into my first band, it was a band called Noise Police. And I was like probably 11. My sister got me to the band. These two kids were older than me.

Then it was like, oh shit, we're playing some fast stuff. We covered power by AF. And I had to, you know, like cross over to get to the ride. So I was like, all, let me bring the ride over here. And that was my thing. Classic open hair. But you still cross over the floor song. I do.

I mean, I've gotten a little, like at certain tempos, like certain songs, like choices made by Siv, I can kind of do it open and I feel real cool like I'm open-handed. I'm not crossing. When you air drum, is your high hat over here? Because that's what I do. Yeah, yeah, definitely. You're going like this. No, when I air-drum, I'm not cross-off.

Oh, I cross over here, which shows me that I should have played on a left-handed kit. Are you lefty? Yeah, I'm lefty open-handed. Okay. You're my godfather. Right on. You're the godfather. Did it? Is the Dave Matthews guy?

Carter Buford, yes. Right, he did that too. He's a big one. And then my brother is as well. Sick. And that's why he was the only person I'd seen play drums when I started playing drums. So it was like, okay, this is drums. He makes no sense because he's righty open-handed. Yeah, it makes a lot. Yeah, it's strange for him, but.

It all made sense to me. It was funny. I was thinking about, I was just driving down here, I was thinking about getting kicked out of Gorilla Biscuits, and I was thinking about the song, Do It, yourself and had that like kind of disco be like, but that's a bit of, because I lead with my left, you really get tangled up in there. Do it? I probably couldn't play it, hence getting kicked out.

People don't think about that, but then there's really things that are simple for us that people cannot comprehend. But like warriors. Easy. But dude, do you find, are you a second rack guy ever? Like, do I play with two racks? Definitely.

You did in the 80s, that's for sure. There's pictures. More so now, too. I mean, I can adapt, but I like it. Me too. And it's because they have this righty privilege of going, it's right there. We got to go, cag, cag, gag, gah, gah, gah, gh, greg, greg.

Well, you know, it's kind of like to jump ahead a little bit more, too. But so, like, when I was in side by side, the song, backfire. So you're, dun-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d- Because going back up was easy. Because I'd leave with my left. Once I made it down there, now it's... I hate doing that. In fact, one of the first songs I ever covered live on a tour was that song. Backfire.

There's a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot of stuff going on. And it's like, there's a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. I mean, because I think, you know, when you're young, especially in hardcore, like, there's only so much time. So you want to squeeze in all your tricks. Guy, and get all your fills in, you know, the intro to take me away. It's so much...

What else we squeeze in, you know? I love that idea of there's only so much time in a hardcore song. If you overstay it and it's... I mean, now, like, a little, as an adult, more mature, like, I understand restraint and, like, pocket and less is more and all that kind of stuff. But back then, it was just like... Well, hardcore is, the bubble is big now. You can do a lot in hardcore, but hardcore from when you started is this big.

We're going to talk a lot more about drums. This is going to be a very drum-centric, eccentric episode, everybody. I apologize in advance, but I never... We need more drummers. We need more drummers. So this is an epidemic. It's the most valuable resource in the world. Yeah.

They'll have a warehouse for it for. Thank you for your service and your time. But growing up in New York, it's like different. I'm a dad now, and it just speeds you on this track, especially downtown Manhattan, and then having an old sister, and she got me into my first band, and that kind of... This was Noise Place.

This was Noise Place, with a Z. Are there other recordings of this? Noise Place never recorded, but it was interesting. It was these two dudes, Alex and Toby, who later Toby became Rocker Tee, and they started the Skidanks. Ah, we've heard of this. So Skidanks were kind of like a force in the New York Sky,

You know. Scott Nanks, right? Scott Danks. Yeah, I've heard this name before. Wetlands, that whole scene. They went to Stuyvesant High School. Really bugged out time, though, because, again, I was probably like 11.

And they had like a reggae song called Talimand, Fun with Ron, which is about Ronald Reagan. It was like, you know, punk rock. And then covering AF. But we played, so I guess like Stavis in high school went on this thing called Founders Day where they would play on a ferry, like the Circularline ferry or some kind of ferry

and go to, I don't know, maybe it was Governor's Island or some island. whole school. And so I was on there, brought my dad's drum set, the whole kit. We played. And a dude dropped acid, jumped off the boat. Someone jumped through this plate glass window. Like, everybody was on drugs, you know. I was smoking pot. They would get me high. They would get me high at rehearsals at 11. And I would get so high that I would like stop playing. I would just be hearing shit. I mean, it was so, I was just way too young to be doing it. Probably. 100%. Yeah. When does straight edge in?

into your life? It starts with punk and then drugs and like smoking cigarettes. And me and my friend Matt Pinkis who played bass in Judge. We were both like punk rock together. I met him in orientation at our school. I think I was in fifth grade and he was in sixth grade. I was 11, he was 12 and was like, hey man are you punk rock? He goes, yeah, I'm punk rock. He goes, yeah, I'm punk rock. I said, yeah. And so we were punk rock together. You want to be friends forever? You know, with that was yeah, like smoking cigarettes, smoking pot. We'd go to Central Park. There was a guy named the man in the red jacket, you buy a roll joint for a dollar. We avoid the man. It was kind of on that path

of like this is what punk is, I guess. Like we're listening to Sex Pistols, exploited, watching suburbia, you know, reap a man, like just trying to figure it out. Like, what is punk? We're into this, you know, bonnage pants, creepers, going to trash in vaudeville in St. Mark's Place. Like, begging for money on St. Mark's

place, you know, neither of us needed to beg for money. And we just, it was, whatever. We were all in on punk. Yeah. Was headed to my dad. We had a, my dad had a house in Long Island. Parents were still married. It was a Friday.

Went to Washington Square Park. I ran it to my friend Stash. And I was like, I was like, what are you, man? Are you stone or something? He's like, no. He's like, I took a rainbow. He goes, you want one? And I was like, sure.

I gave him a dollar. He gave me this rainbow. It was a little tab of acid. Put it on my tongue. Walking around the village with Matt, headed to go meet my dad to get into the car to go to Long Island for the weekend. You know, nothing happened about 45 minutes later,

tripping balls, you know. Go to meet my dad. He's like, he knew something. He was up. He was like, go take a shower, took a shower, crying, getting this car, ripping. It was fucking miserable. And it was like a scared straight moment. And shortly after I met, you know, G.B. and then side by side and youth today, and I was just discovered Straight Edge. And I think that acid moment, along with meeting those dudes just really helped. Was there anyone particular that was like, you should try this? Or you just were influenced by Strait Edge? You should try it? Yes. Someone talking to you or anything? Probably the album breakdown on the walls was just like, you should try this. Or you just like. Like, yeah, I'm in. Like, you put it on, make a change, thinking straight. You meet the guys.

You see a couple of the bands play live. Like, the... I mean, the entire country felt that way. Yes, I was... Everybody was straight-edge over here. I mean, I was like, we were like 11 and 12 and had that record, and we would just put it on in my friend's house and like Mosh on the couch and, like, staged up on the game.

Like, sing along. Like, I was a total fan. So to be able to join the band later was a dream come true. We're going to get there. Yeah. First show you remember going to. Going to. A young spectator.

I would go to shows at the old ritz, which was pretty cool. I've got ticket stops from like 84 and 85, so I was born 73, so 8, 9, 10, I'm 12. It's like 12 years old. I'm trying to remember specifically what it was. It was definitely like circle jerks. I went to that Bad Brains Warzone show, and I freaking left before the Bad Brains. How stupid is that? There's no way to know when you're that.

I probably had to be home, and I also loved New York hardcore so much. So you're like D.C. Whatever. I was just like, I was just like Warzone. I want to see Warzone. I mean, that's already. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. I agree.

But those, some pretty cool old rich shows, for sure, like in 84. What about punk shows? So you said you were punk rock. I think that's kind of punk, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something aside from, that would be considered hardcore at that moment. So, like, a lot of mute, it's interesting around that time I was thinking about this, like, around the back of the village voice, which was this newspaper,

you could buy tickets from these, like, ticket brokers. And I would do that a lot. And so I would go see, like, 84 at Radio City, I saw the Beasties open for Madonna. which was pretty cool. I would go to the beacon a lot and saw the alarm because there was also that time where it's like New Wave

I was like is this punk like the launch punk okay cool it is somehow yeah it was just in a blondeie I was listening to Devo so I was sort of putting that all together I remember with Matt Pink

it's going to see Jimmy Cliff and someone was handing passing like a joint down the like the row of seats and it came to us and like that was the first time I smoked pop and I think one of us

there was a whittle guy Yeah. Again, scared straight though. I was like that life, you know, especially for an 11 year old, I was like... 11's crazy. We only learn from failure. Yeah. It is. I mean, it's funny. I was listening to Luke Abby's podcast on Turnout of Punk the other day.

And he was talking about being in this band L.A.B. And, like, hardcore at, like, age 11. But then he was talking about, like, writing graffiti. He's like, oh, that's when you were, like, what, 9, 10? You know what I mean? Like, you just the shit that, um, it's just the way we, you know, Luke. I mean, you must have just had a lot of freedom, too. My parents were really cool and very supportive

and they knew a lot of my friends and our house was sort of like the clubhouse on 15th Street and so like Billy from side by side stayed there for a little bit when he broke his knee or leg he couldn't walk up stairs and Purcell stayed there for a little bit and so you know my parents were like

you know they were paying attention they were paying attention it wasn't just like but I think also having an older sister they were tougher on her I was the younger boy I have older sisters and I vibe with this. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, Mom, I'm going to go out skating. Okay, cool. Skateboarding, you know, just go and build a ramp somewhere and skate. So as an 11-year-old, 10-year-old, finding this very kind of violent, extreme thing, you need people in bands that

kind of take you under your wing to make you feel safe and welcome. You're not, your brother's not the singer of Ignatse Fron, you know? Right. You're a kid in this crazy place. Who are the people and bands that kind of take you under their wing first. I mean, ultimately, like, ultimately it was Purcell. Like, he was, like, my big brother. And he and I just, like, were, like, best friends for, you know, a couple, like, yeah, a bunch of years for sure. Like, he was my guy.

But I guess before that, before that it was more of just, like, my peers. So, my friend, Chris Burr, like, he met Dylan Shrifles, Walter's little brother. And Walter, and Dylan was like, oh, my brother's got this band called Gorilla Biscuits. you know and like and that's how i got into gorilla biscuits and then he later met jules from side by side at the tram going to roosevelt island because i don't know why he was going there or something but so he was just like more of like my peers like we were all in it together we're not in this alone yes um chris matt pinkis walter's brother dylan luke you know but then as far as as like someone older took me under their wing i think priscilla ultimately when i got to which is so

So cool. Side by Side was opening for Youtha Today. So we kind of met then. And then ultimately, I joined Youtha Today. But he was, yeah, he was like kind of, I looked up to him. He was Purcell. Was that when you met him at that show? I met him.

I don't know, probably a road trip. Probably like a side-by-side Youth Today road trip. Sick. You know, like one of the shows or something. I don't know which one. What was his nickname again? Purcell's your nickname? Yeah.

Oh, the Browns Warrior? He's got a whole bunch. The Bronze Warrior? Yeah, because he was just like a sun god for sure. Yeah, he's sick. Yeah. So, outside of noise police, you mentioned G.B.

Was G.B. before, was your stint in G.B. before side by side? Yes. Tell me all about it. Yes. So I think Chris met Dylan, Walser's brother. My brother's got this band grill biscuits. They came to my dad's warehouse rehearsal studio spot, which again, like, I'm providing.

This is a huge resource. And a rehearsal studio in Manhattan. Unbelievable. I think I still smoked cigarettes and I might have had like my leather jacket with like painting discharge and painting all over it because I was still kind of like kind of punk. But man, I was like then I was in Gorilla Biscuits and we would rehearse a lot and we had you know some of this like no reason why and some of those songs but also like there was a song about Mr. T that we had.

Does that exist? It's never been released. but T. Don't Die, he just go to hell to regroup. Sucker. Tea don't die. Goes to hell to regroup. This is the whole thing? It was, you know, probably more to it.

Wow. Mr. T's song, you know, better than you, I think, was played a little different. But anyway, so I was in Grill Biscuits and we rehearsed. So did you write a lot of what Luke is playing on the? No, I don't think I really, it was just, because they already had a drummer before that. So they had, what, GM2, George Megasophilus a second? Right? Easy, easy to remember.

Yeah. And maybe Ernie, I think, played. And then for some, maybe Ernie couldn't, I'm just, maybe Ernie couldn't do it because he was in token entry. And so there was like, oh, we need drummer. Yeah. There I go. And I confirmed on my way here that this happened because I wasn't sure. But I played my first show at the right track end.

It was the Birth of Unity show. And that Birth of Unity show was like the introduction to New York Hardcore for me. That was on so many ways. Like the whole day was, or the whole evening was pretty wild. Like my dad just got divorced. He bought a Mitsubishi black Mitsubishi car. Remember, he made a big deal of it because he was able to get like all the decals or whatever it's called, like taken off. So it's just like black, you know?

And he was all psyched on it. And he drove Dylan, Walter's brother, me and Chris to the right track in, which was in what, Freeport in Long Island or something, stopped at White Castle, got some hamburgers. We weren't vegetarian yet. threw down some some white castle, get back in the car, driving in my dad's new car, Dylan feels sick, rolls on the window,

throws up all over the side of my dad's new car. Dad drops us off at the right track in. We get out. Some metalheads were kind of fucking with us. And, you know, again,

we were like 11 and 12 or something. And who was it? I think, oh, Jay Crackdown came to rescue us. And so that was kind of cool. Like Jay Crackdown just rescued us from the fucking thing.

Did you know him previously? Not really. I don't think Crackdown was on my radar yet. But that was kind of cool. Then we get in. So you feel the kind of like metal hardcore division before you even stepped foot in the door? I guess so. I mean, it was the birth of unity show and like literally the birth of unity. Yeah, the flyers out there somewhere, but it was like stacked like tons of bands. I've, I don't know. It would be sick to see that flyer. Yeah, it's right here. We'll have to show them. Isn't that awesome? It's right here. Thank you, Stephen.

So anyway, so we played this show and then I went back to Walter and Dillon's house that night. We stayed at their house. Which, that alone was just so bugged out because I never really went to Queens. I would never really go to Brooklyn. Just back then, it was so, you know. Diverse, maybe? 1985. You just didn't, I go up Manhattan. Like, you just wouldn't, I didn't go out there often, you know.

There's no reason to leave. Right. There's no reason why. There's no reason why. There you know. But anyway, that was like, that birth of a new show, like, really kind of popped it off. And I think from there. Did you feel like that moment was your hardcore?

Yeah, I saw like, you know, just, I saw it in a small venue. It wasn't the risk. You know there's Mosh and her singing along. I played you know this whole thing about being able to like meet You know people I'm trying to think of warzone played that but like seeing you know like or I think it was bold's first show is bold like holy shit like I can like I had the crippled youth seven inch yeah that's those are the dudes right there like that whole thing because before that again I was at the ritz it was like You know you weren't able to go meet Keith Morris yeah, yeah, of course, Jalbaugh or something so like So that was just like this oh there's a community yeah this is a community yeah this is The guys from the records are my peers somehow.

Then I got kicked out. Yeah, so this disco beat gets you kicked out? I don't know what got got kicked out, to be honest. We never really talked about that one. Were you just, what you? I think it was just like, we're going to get Ernie back. Ernie was like older and better and taller. He had double bass drums.

Yeah. We don't need that. And then, but shortly after that, again, like my, I think it was Chris that met Jules and hey, man, I got this band Side by Side. We need a drummer. And so I joined Side by Side. And that was like what I, to me, that was like my first, like, my band. That's you. Yeah, for sure. I'm into it, you know, like.

Let's get into it. Yeah. So is violence to fade on the Together Comp? Your first time recording? Yes. First time ever recording. Don Fury's probably one day. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tib. It's cool because it's just like the simple beat too. There's no skip. It's, you can fight me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. which is a boopoochap,

bootchap, bootchap, bootchap, pooha, which is very like punk. Well, it's very much what I do now in seven seconds. Like, learning Troy's part, it's all boop-a-po-pap, bo-pa-pap-pup. I mean, you're not going dook-duk-d-d-d-d-d- You know what? It's a cool one about violence of fate is, I feel like, I remember like, again,

like when you learn a fill, it's like, holy shit, I learned how to play this, Phil, I got to put in a song. Yeah. Kepa-duba, cap-duba, cap-dibu. That's classic. That's classic. Kappa-duba-duba-kap-du-da.

You know, I feel like that's like in the mash part, maybe to balance to fade. Yeah, that's sick. So that was kind of fun. And yeah, that was, like, next to you know, it's on a record. Do you remember the genealogy of this fill, or is this just you fucking wrong?

I think that I just, what I would start to do is like, you know, you learn a snare drum. Tabah, da-dab-dab-tab-tab. Okay, taba-dab-dab-dab. You know, you go around. And then, holy shit, I just went around. What if I go the other way? Okay, what if I go up and then back?

What if I go up in the back and then here? Dabababab, doba, doba, duba. You know, like, once you, or what if I divide from a first track to the floor? Dibu, dabba, dabba, dup. Like, once you, I think once you open your mind into, like, putting hits in different places on the kit, it's like, yeah, I could do a paraddle on the snares,

but what if I do a power dittle on, like, the ride and the floor and the snare? Now it's, like, some other shit. You're finding your voice as a drummer. You're in the back. We're in the shadows. Yeah. And there's all these little ways that we can go, oh, that's him.

Yeah, midtime. I can hear him. hear it. I can't see him, but I know it's him because the little things he's doing. Even the beat you were doing just a second go is such a, like, of the era that's kind of like you in the blood, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, yeah, the mash part. I mean, the thrash beat is interesting. I mean, later I switched to bap-p-b-b-bap-bap. Put the skip in. More of the hardcore beat. Yeah, yeah. But that wasn't that popular even then. A lot of bands were doing like almost last piece. The scissor blast. But I came up on punk, you know, so I can't

I guess it makes sense. I came up on Circle Jerks. And so your first time recording is on the Together Comp on this song that, you know, the lasting legacy to this day. How interconnected do you become socially with like the other bands on this comp right away? Did you feel like there's a camaraderie, like an interconnected camaraderie between the bands on this comp? Definitely in the scene at that time, it was like probably the best at 87. I guess it was more like the way it is comp and together into that.

like 87 New York It was That's when it was like way Yeah that's awesome Yeah that was the anthrax It's so cool But it was more like a melting pot in a good way Like you know

You could be skin and punk And straight edge and hardcore And it all kind of made sense Like hence having like You know I think nausea Or like you know YDL dudes Were hanging out And like Warzone was kind of like

You know skinhead American pride or you know And like then there was youth today and there was like, you know, underdog and took an entry and like just like sick of it all. So it's like you have all these different like, but it all just made sense.

It kind of was like, this is what we're doing. And then later, you know, the straight-edge shows were just all straight-age bands and then it got a little bit more divided. And I think that, you know, it wasn't as fun because I think what attracted a lot of us to it initially was that it was sort of punk and like, fuck it. We're all, whatever.

We're somehow all the same thing. Yeah. And that's so cool. Yeah. So does side-by-side exist in some capacity before you join? I think that it like Luke always had this like presence in side by side and I want to say that maybe because he grew up with Eric Fink in Brooklyn so maybe Luke was like there playing for a second beforehand. I don't know. I do know that he like I think he wrote the time as now. Oh cool. Yeah.

So like he was kind of like around you know in side by side land a lot. I guess we recorded the demo at some point, the side by side demo probably after the violence to fade and then eventually the seven inch and all these things were like in a day, probably at Don Furious. Yeah, like, what was the, like, writing for that? Was it just, like, let's just figure it out? We rehearsed a lot at Giant Studios. We would, like, Mosh in the studio. My friends would come and, like, Mosh, while we rehearsed.

That's how the song is, you know, the song is now. That's kind of sick. What are you guys think of this? And then someone's doing a spin kick. Gavin Van Vlaq played in the beginning. Interesting. And then Alex joined after that. And Eric was, like, probably, like, a real force.

Imagine Alex didn't join. You're right. You can't say Gavin. in this song. You know, it don't sound the same. That's funny. That's not going to hit the same. No disc to Gavin.

No, I mean, there's like a remedialness like about, you know, every band's got their own form of the way it works. When I think about that band, like Eric had this like boss pedal case that's like gray like boss. And he opened it up and there was like six boss pedals.

Just pro as fuck. And he had that and he had a wemi jammy, you know? Dude, he's ripping like proto shredding. But then you get Billy who was like remedial in the best way. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Like, just, you know, and I was just trying to figure it out. Well, you're what, 14, 15? I think I was 12.

I think it's like... Oh, yeah, 80. You know, still into, like, the 12 world. Like, it's funny, like 11 and 12 was like... Went it all. That's a good year, man. How much older is the rest of the van? Billy, I think, was probably the oldest, but like...

And then maybe Alex, I guess. We're probably like four or five, six years older than me. four or five. But that was kind of everywhere you went. It is, which is a big deal. The difference between like a 12-year-old and a, you know, a 17-year-old or something like that. A lot. But again, like, I was a little sophisticated, I guess, growing up in New York versus, like, a lot of these, you know, dudes grew up in the suburbs.

You know, which was just different. Smoking weed at 11 might do it to you. Right. That acid tab just gave me some perspective. That would ever mean realistically, you know, really, you were there. So does the side-by-side demo get around just so as like a cassette around? town. So there was some records, this guy, Dwayne, who ran some records on 6th Street. And it was some records. Some records. S-O-M-A. That's really funny. Some records. And that was the clubhouse.

That place was special. So you would go there and they would have the demos. You know, they would have the side-by-side demo and the altercation demo and the Beyond demo and a couple records, some records. And then he ended up putting out the straight ahead record, right? Yeah, with the sticker. And a couple t-shirts, you know, it was just like that was the spot. And there was like actually a bulletin board. I remember like, Ray B's wrote like an open letter to the scene there. Oh, that was that. That's very fucking cool. It was just like, you know, just like his vision or just like a message, whatever it may be. I mean, at one point I remember he was talking about playing softball on Tompkins Square Park. Like it was almost like a clubhouse like, yo, you know, he would write like these

crazy letters like, you know, we're going to meet a Tompkins. You're a 12-year-old outcast going to record stores and crazy shows. It was kind of a very responsible thing of him to do. Hey, there's all these freaky kids who need somewhere to go. Well, that's the other thing, too. I think that a lot of these guys were like superheroes to me in a way. Physically and just like their persona. Again, like going back to Brickton the walls, you look at the back of it, you see Purcell

and he's like this giant dude. Then you see him in real life. You're like, holy shit, that's Purcell. And it's like, forget about like, oh my God, that's Harley. Like, that's Jimmy. You know, like, that's Gavin or, you know, any of these, like, characters were just Jay Crackdown, you know, Joe Bruno. Being in a room with all of them at one time, probably, does that ever happen?

Yeah, there's that. It made that shows. Yeah, that's a crazy thought. You see Tommy Carroll? You're like, holy shit, dude, that's Tommy Carroll. And that's the beauty I think now and then about hardcore is that you, that's your scene. And you can hang with those people. You can be there.

You can touch you. It reminds me of when you were talking about. about earlier about how your first show that's the experience you had the unity yeah yeah and that's the same same as it is and it has it to the day i mean if you stick around long enough and if you contribute enough you're just yeah these are your peers i think it to make stuff like i started making a zine which i have it somewhere in storage i got to put it out it's probably not well written um but it's called speak up my friend did all the drawings but i was able to like track down Jeff from Breakdown and interview him.

And tracked down Pete from Sikaviton, interview him. Yeah, yeah. What was this? This was like 87. Yeah, we need that. The side-by-side demo, how does this impact New York Hark War at the time? I think it's just one of the ingredients, you know, a nice potent ingredient, but it's just one of many great demos.

I mean, the YDL demo, I loved it. You know what I mean? The altercation demo was probably the greatest thing. And then the breakdown demo right after. Breakdown demo is amazing. Rod Eel demo. You know, like, so I think Sabasad was just, everybody was playing their part

and contributing to the thing, you know. I think we had like a little, yeah, we, I mean, you know, you hear it. It's like we had our own thing, you know, it's like just, it's a little bit, you know, whatever, like darker or heavier, it's not pure youth crew, but it touches on that. It's like, it's got a little...

Who? Whose idea was the LL. Cool J.A. logo? Alex Brown. That's awesome. Genius. Yeah, he's a graphic. genius for sure like that you know he would just be laying stuff out Alex and ultimately started schism and schism fanzine and laid that out and you know Project X EP probably the judge

EP you know a lot of things and side by side for sure so he did he just presented that to you guys I don't yeah I don't remember that process so much you ever fix it on how big his feet are yeah I kind of want to fix those a little bit I'm just like just make him a little more real fix it it's like they're almost like the cool the coolest guy is And then it's fucking Mickey Mouse. Yeah, I have a picture somewhere of L Cool J holding it. Really? Yeah.

That's awesome. Yeah. Here it is. Coolest thing ever. No, that's really good. Alex is, yeah, he was really, like, important to the, just the whole, you know, graphic stories and, yeah. T-shirts and all sorts of cool stuff. You're only young ones.

Yeah. Side-by-size, one and only actual. I wrote the lyrics to Look Back. Good for you, man. So Look Back is about reflecting on your life and I was 12 years old. when I wrote it. Because what, like before five, you don't remember shit. Kinderdard was insane, man.

I just thought at 12 of his time to just stop and just write this song, look back about reflecting. Well, I think there's something so poetic about a 12-year-old putting out a record called Your Only Young Once. Right. You're so present in the moment of being like, I'm a kid and this is what I'm doing.

Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Tell me about recording this with Don Fury. Is this your first kind of full record experience on drums? Yeah, I mean, he had this, Don had this, like, small studio in a basement. And the Dunn's a cellar, right?

Yeah, a little cellar. You go down there, a small little console and a couch, and you kind of go into, like, the live room, which was all carpeted. And then there was this little drum glass-in, like, drum room kind of thing that was very small. And he had this, like, striped kit. I don't even know what kind of kid it was because it was just covered with, like,

I don't know, like, wallpaper or something, like, made it stripes. Now, what does he say when he sees you? you crossing over to the fourth time and putting a ride on the left. Is he freaked out? He's fucking up his whole shit, right? I mean, I've done a few records there where I've fucked with him. I mean, a lot of things have happened. Mainly the SIV record was a weird one for him because I had made,

I learned enough where I was like, hey, you know what? Instead of setting up this drum set in this little glass thing, why don't we set up in your main room, you know? You get like a room sound and he was just like a... Did you do that for the record? I did that for the Siv record. The first one? The first one.

Yeah, the drum sound really good. Yeah, it was in there. even like, I remember I hit, there's a little light bulb, but I was playing. I was tracking. Everyone's on the room and, it exploded. One time I threw up on myself, I'd like to see. There's a pizza place, Lombardis down the street. Yeah, we threw out all. Yeah, we ate there with Sigma. Yeah, all this pizza and just like. That's the first pizza we're in America. Do you know that?

Lombardis? Yeah. Okay. It's right next to Don's. Yeah. But recording with Don was like, he was cool. He would give you feedback. And he was usually, you know, he was like one of us, but not one of us. He was older. He, you know, like, He was just into some other shit. I remember the bathroom was upstairs, so I went up there one time. He always, like, he was single,

date different women, and I went up there, and there was this girl. And it was the girl from, you know, in Return the Jedi, when Jabba the Hut's there, and there's like that kind of black chick that's dressed in green.

She was there. The Twilic. Really? The Twilic is what the racist, the alien race is called. Oh, okay. She was there. So that was sort of cool.

It was a good sighting. Very cool. Was she green? She was not green. Oh. But I did recognize, I put it together. But Don had this one effect thing. It was like blue and it was like, I don't know, it was like what the hell was called.

That's all you. It's all I had. So like, you live in a lie, lie, lie, lie. Delay. Yeah, that's really funny. Like you hear it on a lot of records. We're like, you know, because. Don, do the thing.

Yeah, you know, you're in a studio. You want to hit some buttons. You're like, yo, put that on. Put that on, dude. That's awesome. How extensive was, was, I mean, we talked about it a little bit earlier, but just writing this record, does this feel just like, okay. Yeah, we're making a cool hardcore record

or does this feel like a thing that's going to have a 40-year legacy? Stop by side, I was just so young and like, I mean, it definitely all felt cool and I'm assuming I contributed, but I want to say that Eric probably and those guys maybe had it figured out a little bit more.

I mean, I did write the lyrics to look back, but... Good for you, man. You know, I probably added, yeah, your line once had a lot of those kappa-dibba, kappa-dibba, kappa-dibba. Or those tut-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-dan-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d--d--d-.

Did you know you were doing something like unique or you're like, this is just what feels right? I just, you know, I had probably what, two or three years under my belt already as a drummer, some drum lessons. And so I had like a little arsenal of fills. And I was going to get those damn fills. And being open-handed, it's inherent that you're going to get something unique. Because most people aren't. It's just cool that your chronology and your growth as a drummer is like traceable. You can go back and just literally hear it in real time.

It was cool when side-by-side played a couple years ago because I was. went back, I was listening to that learning those fills. And I sort of the same thing. I was like, oh yeah, that's right. I just learned that fill. And that's why I like tried to put it everywhere. Or like, you know, do you ever listen to that and go like, I was fucking awesome? Some of them. I mean, there's other ones that's so I'm like, oh. I'm sure. We'll get there. Is Ray in the wings seeing this little kid playing drums and just salivating and waiting for the day to give you the call? I don't know about that. I mean, I was definitely, definitely like a fan, like they were just like there, like youth today, like, holy shit.

You know what I mean? Like, I didn't even meet them yet, you know, until eventually, like I said, like we opened up for them probably on some road trip. But, you know, maybe if I saw them at Cbe's, like I wasn't really hanging out with them and, you know, I just looked up to them. It's funny because it's only two years. Two years. But those are a lot happens. When you were at least probably recording for. Yeah. But eventually when I joined youth today, I think the salivating the he he probably picked up on the you know just the novelty that I'm young band's called youth today we're gonna get we got him we're gonna get this 14 year old yeah you know we're these today again yeah i mean you writing lyrics for it is it's kind of it's cool yeah

hardcore in 1988 yeah and like the whole spirit of 88 thing and and uh side by side being right in the middle of it at this perfect time putting out this record playing these shows How would you sum up this time in hardcore and in New York? I mean, like, again, like I was saying earlier, like 87, I feel like it was more that melting pot thing into 88. But it did start to get, you know, the good news is that just like our youth crew thing just got bigger. You know, and so that, maybe you felt that more where like we're starting to kind of like, we have like a look to us. You know, there's like a hoodie and a bunch of us wearing like air revolutions. and just had like a thing.

But like New York was, the whole scene, like they started doing shows The Pyramid Club on Saturdays, which was awesome. Ray and Ray did that. Yeah, that was probably 87. But C.Bs, Sundays, and then the anthrax. Could you get into C.B.? On a Friday?

No, fake ID, went to Playland 42nd Street, got a fake ID, go there. You know, Karen... Here's my ID, sir. Yeah, basically. She's like, you know, Karen was this old lady that worked there, and she'd be like, all right, you know, when's your birthday?

And I was just like, well, you know, like April 27th, something. And I was like, yeah. And she's like, what's your star sign? And I was just like, oh, she's like, get the fuck out of you. Yeah. Then there was like the story that it would be cooler if I just said it was me because people think it's me, but it wasn't me. But basically where Harley had a drum case at a sound check and me and my friend Yoko

were there. And he was like, yo, I'll sneak you in, get in. And I was like, I'm not getting in this fucking drum case. And Yoko got in and wheeled him in. and he got to the show. We talked to Freddie Maddwell at length, and the drum case was his, that was his patentist technique too, yeah.

And then they'd always go, what are you doing in here? Yeah, I'm just not getting the back for like a war zone show. I remember that. My parents have taken me, you know. So if they took you, you can get in? Yeah, a chaperone kind of thing.

And then eventually, I think I turned 16. Yeah, easy. It was on. But yeah, 88 was like... Yeah, 10 years into your drumming career. 88 was just like, like, we would, all, you know, we were getting to vegetarianism, so there was like, which was also kind of fun in itself, so it was sort of like a bit of a scavenger hunt, like, how do you find the restaurant

that has vegetarian food? And like, there was a couple of health food stores, but we would go and like, you know, that was just new to me of like, holy shit, like, you know, whatever, like blue corn pancakes. Like, I didn't know that existed. Like, are you still vegetarian? I eat fish now. Did you, did you start being vegetarian before, uh, we're not in the and it was came out like i think that probably subicide opening for youth today mean priscilla are tight resell saying dude come on man you got to become vegetarian so then it took me a minute like a few of us i remember like weaning off of red meat and then it's like i'm only eating white meat and then it's like winning off of that you know and then i'm only eating fish and then you know

strict vegetarian for a long time um which it all you know it all made sense and it obviously it helps having like a crew yeah yeah to just like keep you know he's he's alone and in veganism and our in this yeah in the TT camp yeah yeah he makes it work we make it work alone in that you are vegetarian you're not he is vegan yeah but uh yeah but being with around people that aren't you know it's in and then people that are it's well now it's like so much easier but we toured youth today in 88 and i remember we had like a pamphlet that literally had like this is like the one place in and Atlanta, Georgia. You know, this is like a seventh-day eventist place in Detroit. You know, we hit the spot. Like, did it bring you guys together as like, yeah, it's pretty cool.

Yeah, you know. But that's that shit that would like wreck your stomach and ruin your day at that time, right? Probably the opposite. That's probably, we're talking lentils and for, and. Well, going to Europe, 89th today. Hooscoose. There was a lot of like, kind of like squat stew kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Which was really good. I mean, homemade like, you know, beans and whatever tomatoes and vegetables, some like that. But yeah, like in the U.S. U.S. not's probably not so much. You know, New York being New York was a little bit had a little bit.

You can go to the Christian temple, get some sweets. I never love the Christian food, but we all worked at health food stores. Yeah. Like that alone is like a hard lore podcast. Okay. You know, like, and it goes back to like old school New Yorker dudes to like John Watson. These dudes used to work, Eric Kesanova maybe. He plays Prana on Avenue A that Purcell worked at, maybe Chaka worked there, maybe Mark

Brian. Siv worked at like, um, it's not around anymore, I'm assuming. Prana's not around anymore, but like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, too, I was like a, I like the idea of it, there's a unity within the hardcore scene. There was a bunch. Yeah, there was, Tom Capone, Walter worked at one, I worked at one, Sid worked at one Purcell. Yeah. So that's where, yeah, we get our stuff, spirulina bars, like spirulina. You don't hear about. Oh, no, no, Spirulina is in the aeron smoothies. It's back. It's back? It's coming back? Good, good. We're all about it. Cool. There's a little more side-by-side coming. Yeah, let's go.

The way it is comp. Yeah. Dead serious and Time is Now, my two favorite side-by-side songs. Well, again, I think Luke wrote The Time Is Now, and that was like advanced music. So that was just waiting in the wings this whole time? I don't know. Maybe he wrote it with someone. It is advanced.

And I think that we might have recorded that. At least, or we demoed it. We were rehearsing some other place on like Broadway in Houston. I forgot the name of it, but I think we maybe demoed it there or something. And did Alex play? on it or Gavin, I think Alex probably played on it, but yeah, the time is now was like, holy shit, there's like multiple parts, it's got this like moody beginning and it was like epic ending. It was advanced hardcore for us at the time. But it's like, and then it's the end,

you know? Yeah. Why? Then we broke up? Why? Why? Why break up? A year in, you know? Yeah, Billy reminded me that we kicked him out, I think the other day. I was like, what happened? I was like, why did we break up? He was like, dude, he's like, you kicked me out. I was like, I was 12. I had no, kickout power. I don't know exactly why. That might be Jules' question, but nothing like crazy. Just like, we're doing other shit. Jules started alone in the crowd, and then I ended up joining you today.

That'll do it. I mean, it's when you look at the comp, you weren't playing in the bands at the time, but you're like a third of the comp. You had the Today, you got Judge. I was Judge on there? No. But something else was on there, am I wrong? I mean, Bats at I was, Grill Biscuits was on.

I don't know about I didn't make songs. Yeah. Yeah. So for... Good comp though. Yeah. Great comp. I mean, maybe the best.

Yeah. Depending on who you ask. For like 35 years, you guys were amongst the few bands to never reunite. It was in the very short conversation of like, well, side by side still hasn't. And then there was this thing on this show where we would talk about how a band has never played before. Mm-hmm. And then the next day, their reunion would get announced. And that literally happened with the Eindhoven one, where we put out an episode on the Thursday.

being like side by side never has and then the Friday was there it was. Ah, I didn't expect that one either. But I mean, because Jules, like we were all like even after hardcore kind of ended, you know, that initial phase for a lot of us, you know, we were all kind of still had like a leg in it and we're paying attention. And some dudes like Mike Judge actually kind of disappeared for a while. But Jules also just sort of like went, you know, he was like I think a maritime marine or a lawyer, maritime lawyer or something.

and just was like out of it. I remember he talking to him when I was doing Siv and he was just like, he just seemed so not like in touch with the scene anymore, which is fine because we all became adults. But like, I think what his friend, our friend Howie, Howie was sick.

And so he did a benefit for him with alone the crowd. And I think that once he was back on stage, it was like, okay, cool. And then alone and a crowd also played Revolution Calling. No, they're playing this. Oh, that's this coming? Damn, that's crazy. Yeah. November.

Wow. Something like that. Gone until November. How was it playing those songs again? It was really fun. It was really cool. Just because it's, especially that one because it's, you know, I'm a little bit, I'm better now. You're good at drums.

So it's fun to like, it's fun to play those again. Like, it's solid. Like, this is, you know, we're coming in on time for, but also still understanding the nuances of how it should be. The perfect imperfection. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't want it to be too polished. but it just was nice to revisit the songs. Pardon this interruption.

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Enjoy. Before youth of today, is that when the Project X stuff comes to be? That's a good question. I want to say Youth Today, I joined Youth Today, and then I feel like we did Project X within that. My understanding was like Ray went off to, on his pilgrimage, therefore Project X happens, but I could be very wrong. You would know better than me. Yeah. It could have been like, like, I joined you today, Ray starts to become more Krishna, and Purcell's like, I want to do Prachitex. Right. And I think the song straight edge revenge was for you today's song. I think. But it's a, there's a very, uh, Star Wars-esque thing there where like, Jedi's don't have revenge. So Ray wouldn't like that. So, right. So Porcel takes it to this other

direction. Yeah, Ray, I mean, you know, you hung with him like, yeah, time to forgive. Like he, We just might, we couldn't, we couldn't cut it. Yeah, like he'll go far, but he'll, kind of stopped himself at a certain point of, of, um... I think straightage revenge was very far in that time for him. Yeah, that's far. Yeah. I don't think that would, he would do it. But who knows? Tell me about making this record. Youth Today or Project X?

Project X. Let's talk about Project X, and then we'll get into the crack into the big nut of I mean, Project X, it's not a ton of memories. It's funny because we're actually going to play a show in Eindhoven in November and so on. We've been talking a little bit about it. But, you know, it came out of probably just like friendship and just so into being straight edge. Like, we were so fucking. into it. Like, you know what I mean? I do. Like, just so into it. Like, just was like all about it. Like, I would go to high school and just like, whatever, all of you people, I'm going to go hang out my straightage friends. I have school. X up all the time. I'd see the word edge in a fucking sign on a building and be like,

it says edge. Like, you know, yes. Well, let me see that for a second. That might have been the the Yamaha kit. I missed that kit. Power recording costs. It's such a, you're set up with the, the, three rack, Tom's? Three rack. Damn. Yeah. High angled crashes? That's cool. Yeah.

Do you still do that? Not angle. It's flat now. Angled is wild because you got to hit that good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was when you today got signed

to Carolina Records, we just got some money. I bought a Yamaha Power Recording Customs, but that was probably inspired by leeway to that 10 inch. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, just to be able to get that.

Project Decks. Yeah. We got together the four of us, and I think it was just like, let's make something so fucking straight edge and what's have aliases. And let's, you know, we were pissed off about getting, we played youth today or somebody played CBGBs and we got, people were stage diving. We didn't stop it. So we got banned from CB's. It was called the shutdown show. So we wrote the song, Shutdown about that because we were fucking pissed about that. And we, straight at your band just like, I'm a straight as a line that you sniff up your nose. You know what I like about Project X is, it seems like the first time a hardcore band is talking about the scene.

About the scene. Like, am I wrong to say that Project you're talking about your current scene music? It's very uniron. Ironically straight-edge. Like, they're just being like, this is what it is. This is what we are. Every song is that this is what's going on. Yeah, it's because, I mean, you might hear it in like AF or something,

but they're talking about like... Warzone did it a lot. Warzone did do it a lot. But I like that idea. Cross me. Talking about... Fast song. Yeah.

Six minutes long and this 40-year legacy on this record. Our set's going to be amazing. Is it going to be six minutes long? Maybe seven. Oh, new song? I know. Oh, I get it.

We played a couple of shows, But it was just, yeah, you know, that's really it for Project X. I mean, the coolest part of that, I think, was that was like Alex Brown and the graphics and what he brought to it. And then it came inside this, this, the zine, schism, the schism one, I think. And then it's like the labels were like, I remember we stuffed them all together at their house on North 8th Street in Williamsburg. Back when, like, Williamsburg was totally fucking sketchy.

And we'd, you know, draw, like, right-hand messages, you know, on each label has, like, a different you know message it was like just which i think that was kind of like the rev thing at the time right it just was like it came it was just natural it was out i don't think we had printed um labels so it was just at a necessity but it's just funny now you remember any of the messages you wrote on them i just pulled some up recently and i like straight-edge stuff i don't know and maybe some some personal jokes and so i'd have to um check them out again but i love that about it which was just really it was like this real you know that's what i appreciate now in my life now like making stuff, you know, like, one of...

It's the best. Yeah, like, just like, holy shit, let's go make something. Let's make a zine. Let's do it. What if we did this? We'll make this thing. We'll make a... Or making a band or writing a song. Just like when you actually make it and put it out. And so that's what was cool about Project X. Agreed. How did Project X play many shows? Probably not. We did play... I think we played the first ever Super Bowl of Hardcore, which is the old Ritz on 11th Street. And I do remember... So Chris Williamson, who was kind of like big business guy, I think he was.

managed the Cromags and he ran those shows and he was like serious and it's like holy shit we're playing. For starters just like we're playing maybe the first time I ever played the old Ritz and I remember like the rental drum set was like this massive like white kit and I was just like so little and he's like you're on right now he's like if you can't go on right right now you guys aren't playing so I was like all right tick tick tick and like literally it was just like the drums were totally everything was totally fucked up yeah and Alex jumped on the drum riser. I think I have a photo somewhere

and slid across a drum riser lands on his back, you know. It was just a fucking chaotic. Perfect. 11 minutes or something, whatever it was. But that was like the first show. We probably played a decent show at the anthrax and I don't know where else we played.

But yeah, Slam, Kid Hard, the youth, and ND. Did you ever ask Walter what ND means? No. We told him it meant no drugs and it meant not dedicated because he was always late. He was the best.

Walter wrote Dance Floor Justice. So here's a musical moment. Yeah, yeah. That was, so you thought the time is now was sophisticated? I did, at least. Yeah. Fucking Dance for Justice was like, oh my God,

like I was almost in tears like, dun da-da-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-d-d-d-d-d. Like that flip? You're just like... It took me like, I don't know, five hours to figure it out. I could not figure it out. Even though it's still 4-4 somehow. I don't know what time.

It's like 6-8 into some 4-4. Banda-da-da-da-dun-da-dun-da-dun-da-dun-da-dun-da-dun-dun-dun-dha. Crazy. But that's advanced. That's advanced. It was advanced. For that time. He was ahead of his time.

He was clearly like the signs of a prolific writer. You saw it. It was like, that was probably one of the first moments. I was like, ooh, this guy's a little different. This guy's good. Maybe MD. Maybe dedicated. Yeah.

Yeah. In his own life. Yeah, he threw it in our face. You guys want to call me ND? All right. Here's the all-time bang. It's for justice. And how seriously are you taking Project X or is this just like one day?

I think it was just a project. Hence Project X. You know, Project straight. It was our project. It was understood that like this is not. This is not our thing, but this is. I think so. Yeah.

But a lot of the bands started really as projects and nobody knew. I think Judge was like a seven-inch that Mike and Purcell wanted to do. And Mike played drums and sang. yourself play bass and guitar and they did the seven-inch and then whatever 40 years later we just played boise last night amen you did so like you know you never know i mean that's the coolest you know thing i tell myself this i tell people like just do it just record a song just put it out put a seven-inch out because you never know like where it's going to be you yeah you never know especially when you have rev in your corner you know to do cool shit and immortalize it physically

yeah i mean at the time rev was you know not I wasn't that close to it. It was something that Ray and Jordan were doing. And yeah, they were the ones putting our records out, but it didn't feel like a force necessarily. I was like, okay, you guys are trading GI Joe's for records. Yeah. But then you see that they're trading those records for very expensive records.

Well, it all turned into something that none of us expected. Youth of Today. Yeah. What is, you've talked a little bit about this earlier, but what is Youth of Today to you in 1988 and how do you officially join the band? I mean, I was just like I was such, I think I bought that Can Close By, a 7-inch at some records,

listen to that a zillion times. You're like, oh, this is the best thing ever made. Just like, absolutely fell in love with that. Breakdown the walls was just like, holy shit, the packaging, the music, the songs, production. You know, raised voice and then seeing them live. Like, for me, he was the best. I mean, he was just like a fucking lightning bolt,

just like ripping around and just, you know. So I was just a fan. Like, yeah, I loved it. And so then when Sa' By Side was, when I was playing Sa B'B we got to Open for Youtha Today, it's like, holy shit, I'm opening for my favorite band. Like, I remember I had my dad's like Slingerlin drum set this like 1960s or 70s like slinglingit.

It was really light. It was a jazz kit. And Sa by Side by Side Open for Youth of Today at Seabees, Mike was playing drums. And Ray was into this thing of like throwing the drum set, like just getting so enraged that he would just do that. He just fucking grabbed this drum set. I don't think you realize how light.

it was because it just all of a sudden my dad's drum set is just like on the other side of CB's and I was like oh my God like that's what was it like the backing kit this we were it was like the drum set like why Mike's playing oh yeah like the song you know some I don't songs stop sometimes sometimes I just kept going but um but yeah so um so then to be able to open up for you today and then eventually uh Mike had left to start judge yeah and after the long ass break down the walls tour long as break to the walls tour you know two and a half month tour like can it'll break you they'll break you you you know it's rough that was there's stories he was writing lyrics this whole time for this thing that didn't exist yet

i think so yeah that didn't align with maybe the youth of today message yeah i think percel and him probably talking about i mean when you hear mike talk about it he says he wanted to do something that was just like youth today was getting a lot of shit you know people felt threatened by straight edge you know and this guy like in your face so like it was you either loved it or you didn't which is i think kind of cool about music of uh what it just brings out that sort of emotion of just like you either love this thing or you fucking absolutely hate it. People hated it and Mike wanted to like

kind of fight for that and fight back and push back and literally. Literally and like get into it and he was fed the fuck up and blah blah blah and so he wrote you know he left and they needed a drummer and again like me and Purcell were so tight that they kind of had like I think a loose

sort of audition I think Luke tried out Luke and Walter were really tight and me and Purcell were really tight and I don't know if anyone else tried out but I ended up I think I went to Giant Studio again on 14th Street and like tried out and I got it. And now I'm in the band.

And the first show I played, I think, was in Pennsylvania. This was like 87. And I had like a fever. You know, I was totally sick. And that's the photo of the back of the We're Not Salon record. I'm just like this. Totally sick. And then we flew to California and we opened up

for uniform choice and seven seconds at Fenders. And I think that was the second show that I played. And that was like 3,000 cap or something like. Yeah, and I'm just like, oh, my God. I'm in youth today. I'm playing breakdown the walls and the drums. And we're at Fenders playing with seven seconds in uniform choice. Do you look at Luke as like your greatest rival?

We had a cool rivalry like or and Drew was in there too. You know, Drew played with Bold and ultimately into another. Yeah, yeah, really good. And so like definitely we kind of watch each other, you know, because like, you know, Mackey and some of those dudes were just in a different level. Like they were just better and they were just maybe older. That's a different generation. It feels like, well, three years before it's a long time.

Three or four years is your whole. whole life at that point. Yeah, but Drew and Luke and I were kind of same age. We'd play together, so we'd like pick up on stuff from each other, I think, and want to practice a little harder to, you know, maybe play a little better for each other. And so there was... I have to be better than Luke. There was some healthy competition, for sure. Because the rotation amongst you three is really interesting. It totally was. Yeah, I mean, Luke, yeah, Luke played in Judge initially and then left. We were all swapping around. I mean, I think we were all friends. It's healthy. Yeah, it was healthy.

But I joined youth today, and there was that Fender's show. There was some West Coast run, I think, with like Instead or something. And then at some point, we started writing We're on Salone at my dad's warehouse on 264 West 11th Street. And is this you, Purcell, and Ray? And Walter. And Walter? Yeah. Walter wrote quite a scene.

So, yeah, he wrote, I remember he wrote a... No More. Keep It Up. And No More probably wrote Choose to Be, which is a really good song. one of my favorites. And, you know, Capo wrote, it's interesting seeing Ray Rase-als because he was a drummer in Violent Children,

so he'd get behind the kids sometimes. And then he'd, you know, bang out riffs and Purcell would figure him out, or he'd know how to play a little bit too. But next to you know, we had this record. And first, you know, we went to Chunking Studios because we thought Chunking was, like, professional. Like, that's what you kind of do.

Because you got Caroline money. We got signed to Caroline Records. We got a little bit of money. I bought this drum. My first drum set, it's Yamaha Power Recording. customs. I'm psyched at a drum set. Walter brought a bass rig. Pricell

brought his guitar stuff. We go to yeah, this is the best. Classic pick. That's on tour. That's my grandfather Murray down in Florida. That's sick. Yeah. Moish. Murray Siegler. That was funny. He was like, he woke up

Purcell extra early that morning to go get an extra key made and to get curtains for the van because he was afraid they were going to get robbed. We also all got like, that was in Miami. We all got like a total just like sun poisoning, like blisters, like Walter. We had to play, we played the cameo theater. I remember Walter like had a strap on, strap on his, not a strap on, but that.

Close enough. And just having to jump around with that, yes. But, no, we were all really sunburn really bad. Been there. But yeah, we went to Chunk King Studios because it's like Slayer recorded there, Beastie Boys. Like, it's time to be professional. What is, how long is the writing process? And how much freedom do you think you have?

Because Ray as a drummer, I could see it being like, no, try something like this. I think there was freedom in that they just trusted me to just play the part, you know, like, occasionally to have something specific. You know, maybe like no more like, doong, doon. That could have been someone like Walter or someone saying,

I want you to go. Because that's syncopated with the bass. But like, da-na-na-ba-da-ba-da-but-and-but-it. You know, like that's just like probably, that's a ray riff. You know, like I'm just going to play. What else you're going to do that? So that goes back to a sing about a single-stroke roll.

Like, okay, I can go around. What if I just come back to the snare? Maybe I should have spoken. Kept my mouth shut, you know. So I think there was freedom. Like, I'm the drummer, therefore play drums. They wanted you in the band, for a reason. You know, but like those guys probably, like whoever wrote,

to plop and band, they probably had that idea. It needs to go to-cata-ta-ta-ta-tun. Yeah, I went to bat, bat, bat, ba, ba, but you know, but you're in a band, you start speaking the same language kind of quickly. And then it's like, we know that. Yeah, yeah. Like, boom, okay, yeah, you do, you do that, you do this, you do that. Priscilla, you do string bands, right? Okay, we're good.

It's also, like, with the riffs for that, it's like, if you're doing a circle pit riff, like, you just know what you're going to get, you know, the drama, guitarist don't matter. Yeah, the next part, okay, cool. No, on the top, I got it. All right. Back to that, you know, hi, okay, cool. It writes itself in a way. It writes itself. So you got this big, the band has this big budget for the first time and your first order of business,

for really the second time of your life making a full record, you're recording a, what would be a foundational hardcore LP at this gigantic studio that can suck it. Do you feel pressure going into this after witnessing and experiencing and being a fan of Breakdown the Walls? I think at that time we were so well rehearsed and played shows that I wasn't as in a, and maybe when you're young, you just have like some kind of just like fuck it. I don't really care thing, but like, or just like confidence. But I don't think I was that freaked out as I probably should have been. I'm trying to think of how old you would have.

Especially with what was coming. Yeah, it was like 87. So I was like 14. Yeah. Maybe 88 was 15. So like. But I just, you know, we probably only had, we don't have that much money, so we probably only had a few days.

So it did happen pretty quickly. I remember the backup vocal session because Ray Bees was there and he would always carry his lines out longer. So it's everyone supposed to be like... So it's like, is that Ray on backups? Like, Tom will remember. You know, he would just like, it's like, no, we're all supposed...

Or put it aside. He'd be like, put it aside. You know? So you know it's him. Yeah. So this group and this time, has Ray already kind of gone away for a little bit and then come back to do this record

from my understanding? Not really. So yeah, Youth Day went on this alone. Make the record. I'm like, I joined the band, played a couple shows. Now we're making a record. It's like, this is awesome. I'm in my favorite band. This is great. Summer of 88, we toured the U.S. Well, let's, we're going to get there. Okay.

But I want to talk about actually making the record because this is an insane experience. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You record all of the drums. Yeah. Walk me through what happens next. There was a day. I don't know exactly what happens.

happened. I actually watched some of Walter's thing where he was sort of telling it. I don't know if they taped over my snare drum and I just, but there was a day where he was just like the engineer. I feel like we had different engineers because we just, less pause Davis is the guy who was the guy. He was the guy. We might have had a steady less pause. Okay, I think it was judge maybe they had like different random interns, but like, and he was just like, yeah, like, can you just like play along the snare drum? So he had a snare drum set up in the middle room with the microphone on it, had headphones. And I'm just going like, pat, pap, pap, pap. The way he explained to me was that he was just going to kind of fade it in here and there. So I don't think the

original snare was shot, but... So it was the snare, wasn't the whole drum performance? No, I think he just... My guess is that the snare... You think he wanted... If there was quiet snare moments, they could just make it louder. Or maybe the... When he tracked it, maybe he didn't get the snare as good as he wanted to or something

like that. What's interesting is on Breakdown the Walls, which Drew played on, right? On all the fast speeds, the snare disappears. Really? So it's almost as if this dude was listening to Breakdown the Walls and was like, I could fix that. And I'm going to develop this insane technique to do that. I mean, we were really, it's a strange one,

and I wish the reels were somewhere to listen to what the hell's going on, because we were really tight. And on certain songs, like, slowdown sounds pretty together. There's certain songs that sound like kind of together. But there's other songs where it just sounds like something's a little off. And, like, everybody played well. I mean, really, the bass is solid, the guitar is solid. Ray, like, crushed it.

He did all the vocals in one day, which was amazing. I remember, like, we were all in the booth watching him do it, and he's doing Chuths to Be into the Mosh part. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna laugh. We hear like, boom, he falls to the floor. And he passes out. It's back up. Okay, he's back.

Like, I mean, he just nailed every song in one day. And then they mixed it and it was done. But, yeah, that one day was strange with, like, the overdubbing the snare drum. So I don't know, like, and then there was a remix. Like, I think Purcell later. The remix is good. Is it better? The remix is awesome, yeah.

The remix sounds good. I have the first press, and it's weird. It's unglued. Right. Yeah. I think that's what's streaming. No, no. The new one, that's the remix.

And that is way better than what's on the first press of the record. I've heard the first press, and I know exactly what you're talking about. And you're listening back to it, and you notice that, but no one says, hey, this is not glued together. It sounds like you didn't have the choice or something. Yeah, yeah. I just don't know what part of it is not glued. in my... It sounds like a mixing problem.

Like the reels were put together out of sync or something. Right. Right. Right. It's really weird. Like yeah, you kind of... I'm not really into pro-tuning shit, but you almost want to just be like... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, like... It's a thing that would never happen in a digital society. Well, if anyone out there has those reels... Send them specifically to Sammy and we'll get to work. I'd love to dig into it. So for you, Chung King could already suck it? The part that I don't understand about Chunk King

is that why did we go back there? You're going to have to... That's for you to talk. And my understanding, I think Gorilla Biscuit started start today there and then went to Don's. So why would they go there

knowing that, you know... Everybody keeps fucking blowing it. Yeah. Going a drunk game. Because, I mean, it was fucking powerful. Slayer. Yeah.

What are you going to do? But that could have been, you know, Rick Ruben. Rick Ruben did both of those. I mean, I was, you know, these are all teachable moments. lessons, you learn that, like, just because you have a nice studio, a lot of it is who's back there doing the thing and, you know, understanding what a producer does later in life, like,

you know, having someone, because we were kids, so we didn't really know how to make records. But you would think Caroline would kind of know better and back you up there. Yeah, I don't know. They were, I mean, Ray kind of dealt with them, and I don't think that they were not, you know, they didn't give us that much money. It was just sort of like, here you go, we got youth today. Right. But you guys knew, you guys knew how to play the songs, and you didn't We were tight. I mean, listen to live stuff from around then. Like, we were definitely tired.

When you're in a hardcore band in your teens, you're not going, I'm going to make the big Slayer record. We need to figure out who the producer is going to be. You go, we know how to play our songs. Let's go record them. I mean, I think the spirit and the fire is captured on that, which saves it. Big time. You know, it just, there's a fucking pulse with that record that amongst all the chaos and

the weird shit that's not like locked, it's still just like, oh shit. I mean, that's everything. You say Ray did his vocals in one day, and I think that makes sense in a cool way. Yeah. Because it sounds like raw. You know, with 15 of us crammed in the live room, I mean, in the control room,

looking through the glass, just cheering him on. Like, you know, and he was just performing, like, or just giving it as all. And, like, you know, those, yeah. I mean, he definitely carried it. And it was cool. And then the artwork was dope. We went.

Artwork rules. We went down to the band show. which has all this like history it's like on Avenue D which was like fully fucking sketchy back then we're walking down there all of us like these like you know 15 little like white kids

and like the center block or something comes flying out of a window and smashes into this car you know the windshield and we're just like yikes we get down there and yeah we took the photos and I don't know who laid that out maybe Alex did it but it uh

Alex was just the guy yeah just a cool layout and it's just like man we're on this great title went on Salone. And it's just like that. It's just like that. It's a day, man. It kicked us off into this new...

And now Go Vegetarian is also in the ether. Yeah. Yeah, no more. It was an important song. I mean, I love that he's writing lyrics about, like, slow down, appreciating the moment, you know, potential friends. I think he talked about,

he told me, talking to someone on a bus. It's just, you know, just shit that wasn't really in your typical hardcore song or youth crew song or whatever. And it's pretty timeless. And I think it's a lot of why we still play now. It's because it means something to all of us.

I don't know if you, in the episode we did with Ray, when I bring up youth crew as like a genre of music, he's confused. Oh, really? He's baffled by that being a thing that like, we're a youth crew band being an identifier. Yeah. Is like confusing to him?

That's interesting. I can see that. I mean, he's old school. You know, like he's, you know, he was pulling. He was pulling from SSD and from all the stuff and youth crew. Yeah, I don't know. That's just your friends, but it became a genre.

Yeah, I will say that like, I mean, he's Ray Capo. Like, he was our leader for 100%. But he wasn't hanging out, I guess, as much with like the me, Purcell, you know, Dylan, Alex Brown, Walter, like, we were hanging out. Is he because he was further away? I think he started to actually get on this religious mission a little bit. You know what I mean? He was searching. He was trying to find something, he wasn't

content with going a quantum leap and eating the garden burger like we were. You know, I mean, no, he hung out and he's, you know, he was our guy for sure. But like he just, I think he was starting to just like, yeah, like, see what's next. Yeah. Raghunath was being born. Yeah. Did you feel a youth crew? I felt super youth crew. I was like, you were the youth. That's what I'm saying, because you saw youth crew. You saw what it is. So what happened was like to, you know, 88, we're toured the US, 89, we go to Europe. Now we're in Europe. My first time ever touring Europe, it's two and a half month

long tour in Europe, like February, March, maybe. I'm in my favorite band, and our singer has a Sika, his head shaved, and it's got, like, a Hari Krishna Sika. And after the show, he leaves and goes stays at the temple, and I was, you know,

crushed. I was devastated. Like, there's my favorite band. What happened to... Like, he's destroying the band. Yes. It was letting me down. But, you know, granted, he's like, what? I was 16. He was probably 21 or 22 and just going through a whole bunch of different shit. And it's already been to you today since 85. I joined in 87. And he was starting to get into Christian consciousness and ultimately started shelter.

But that was a big blow for us. Like, we were, you know. Yeah. We were just starting. I kind of, we just made one of this alone. I think maybe about to record Disengage. Yeah. You know, we were... And how did you feel about Christian at the time and how do you feel about it today?

I felt threatened by it then because, I mean, he even told me recently just like, back then he kind of had to draw a line of the sand. It was like, you're either with me or kind of against me thing. There was not a lot of middle ground, whereas now... Again, very Sith-esque, very lot... It all comes back to Star Wars. I mean, I get it in the...

Kind of respect, though, for that. That's like absolutes. That's like absolutes is really... Yeah, I mean, it's easier now as an adult, I think. to be like, hey, I'm Christian conscious, you're into this, you're into that, like, we're all friends, cool. Back then, it was more of, like, lines, like, even if you were like a skinhead or you're a straight-ed or you're a punk or whatever,

like, now you're high-Krishna. And, you know, they also, not only were they're like Krishna conscious, like they became, you know, Brahmachars, like monks. So they moved to the temple, got rid of all the shit. Doing this at 21 and being able to do, like, setting those boundaries is pretty... Yeah. It's extreme. It's extreme in some regard, but also there's,

a level of immaturity too of like you don't know what 25 look the year 25 looks like for you yet maybe you do yeah but but then he but then he he starts a band shelter which incredible and writes really good fucking songs so it's almost just like oh you didn't really like leave us you're yeah you kind of went over here and you also just started this awesome band yeah and you know he asked me to play drums i played on serenogarty and free will so you know that uh and then all these like you know a lot of straightage kids ultimately ended up getting into christian conscience And that, you know, he's such an interesting person in that, or charismatic or whatever, like that he's able to start all these different things throughout his life. I think that's interesting.

He's a missionary as he, as he, uh, it's just cool. Like he's not, uh, I was going to say he's not a follow through guy, but he definitely followed through with Krishna. But like as far as starting Revelation records, you know, like the logo, the name. Starting Equal Vision, you know, records, the logo of the name. Even Wisdom of the Sages is a cool name. It's a cool logo. Youth of Today, shelter. Yeah.

better than a thousand. He's an incredible marketing. Yes. Yeah. I want to know when you brought up him in the studio doing the vocals. Yeah. I was watching you to speak on it, and it seemed like you were inspired by it. It was probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

And it's like... I'm inspired by you talking about. I think just later, like, making more records with, like, bigger budgets and that kind of thing where, like, the singer sings, like, one song a day. You know, it goes back and does stuff. Like, just to... capture it in one day a whole album like whatever that is 13 14 songs or something you know kind of like a show like a performance which i guess makes sense but um it just uh it was it was so sick and because he was like in i don't know if he was in his prime but he was just like so fucking good and maybe

yeah did like probably one take yeah i mean that's to me that that's hardcore crazy you know that's what that's what when i listen to bad brains i go that's what i that's the energy i want when i We talk about like demoitis and stuff, and when you record something, when you record something for the first time. First take grit. Yeah, there's something special about it, you know, and so he was kind of doing that on every track. So good. Like he was probably, I mean, we rehearsed and in his brain. I don't think he sang a lot in rehearsal maybe, but yeah, so that was sort of like the first time, like, I'm just assuming you're hearing yourself, you're, you know, these are these lyrics that you wrote that you've been so excited to sing finally and you get to do it.

And it's, yeah, it's cool. It's inspiring. Yeah. So the record comes out. And it's time for the We're Not in This Alone tour. June to September, 1988. June to September. It was long.

Long as shit. Yeah, it was really long. We played Cleveland three times. We did. We did. What comes to mind from this tour? Walk me through it. Is this your first U.S. tour?

We bought a van. We had some money from Caroline. We bought some equipment. Yeah, we're going to buy a van. We're chilling. The van. I think Alex and Bressel bought it from some guy. It turns out it's a lemon.

The engine. Heases up on the first, like within a few hours. Whoa. And we call our buddy Steve Reddy and say, dude, we're screwed. Like, we have to start this tour. He's like, don't worry about it. I'll come down from Albany or something. And he came down with his van.

And he just rolled with us. And we went on tour. And Steve was just like our guy, which was amazing because he was our muscle and he was smart and just took care of everything. And he was also kind of getting into the Christian stuff with Ray at the time. Yeah.

I mean, that probably, it probably started on that tour, I would guess, you know, maybe just conversations with the two of them or that kind of thing. But I mean, so many things happened on the tour, like just ripping around the U.S. in a van, like going everywhere. You know, the back axle snapped once in, like, and we got stuck in Junction, Texas. And our buddy, roadie friend, Jay Anarchy, like, mooned. We were all by the pool and he, like, mooned us. But I guess there was, like, a group of, like, church girls there, like a group.

And so we went back to a hotel room and, like, these guys knocking our door that were pissed about that. that was a problem. Like, no, he was showing us as that. You got to move your gut. You got to move your friends. We got our axle fix, but they gave us like a rusty axle. Oh, perfect. You know, that was screwed up.

Walter, there's a half pipe in Walla,ala, all of Washington. You know, we're friends. It's like this kind of like, Lord of the Flies, Killer to Kill type mentality too going on. We're like, these guys are like older brothers and uncles. And, you know, it could get very competitive in this and that. So it was a lot of, I grew up street skating.

Ray and Bressel grew up in Connecticut and Westchester on ramps. So there was a lot of, kid had a huge half pipe in his backyard like huge and it was like you got to drop in like percell dropped in ray dropped it smoked it smoked it's like walter sammy like who's gonna do it who's gonna do it like bala blah blah blah walter's like i'm gonna do it we're gonna do it he did it he fell and they're like you got to do it again you got to just jump back up you got to do it again he breaks his ankle in half like perfect he's stuck in wall of washington at this kid's house and the next day we had to play the next night so ray ended up playing bass and steve sang

and we played and I remember these kids were yelling like let the bass player sing let the bass player sing and then Luke learned the songs of bass he was with us Luke finished the tour on bass but it was a crazy I'm sure I'm sure there's not a video of that maybe there is but I just like wish I could see that yeah you know yeah I mean it was just you know

we were yeah like we had never so is this a positive experience too overall this tour yeah definitely like just playing that much I think it was all And a lot of just fun in games, like kid, teenager type shit, drawing on each other where you're sleeping. I mean, that's classic. You know, all that kind of stuff.

Well, what's interesting is you read about the breakdown on the walls tour, and it's like Richie and Mike talking about fighting people every day. Right. Like defending the name of Youth Today around the country. Yeah. And this sounds like summer camp. It was a little more the seeds that they had planted, you know, or even Ray and Purcell before that.

I think there was a tour, right, with seven seconds or something. And, like, you know, you start to see, what is it, the, you know, you start to see the scene evolving and turning into something. Sowing and the reaping and the way. And the kids come out for you guys. I mean, it's still rough. Like, we were in Florida. It was all, not all, but a lot of Nazi skins. You know, Texas, there was a fight with some kid that, like, you know, I threw a drumstick at him.

And then Steve ultimately was, like, our savior. But, yeah. Yeah. Always throw drumsticks at Nazis. That's the answer. Yeah, that's on video, actually. This kid's just like zig-hiling us in the front of the front row the whole time And Ray's getting frustrated with him

And then like Luke kind of jumps on him with his base And then I throw a drumstick at him And then he keeps going And Steve ultimately just like lights him up But no it wasn't that bad However we went to Europe in 89 It was a little bit more like youth to probably break down the wall Like it was a couple of step back

A step back couple years Okay yeah In the evolution Two months in Europe Two months in Europe Like 80% squats in the winter totally getting ripped off like playing two shows in one day sometimes

some shows sucked beer bottles being thrown at us other shows were fucking amazing so Ray saying youth of today has never played a bad show is not entirely true from a You know why? Because he is so fucking good that he has this ability to turn a bad show

into a good show where there's a little you can't really say that for a lot of front men like people just get like whatever It's really hard to lie I mean we'd play like to you know eight drunk American GI that were stationed in Frankfurt or wherever the hell we were playing. And they were just, because the poster was,

I think it was from Can't Close Minds. It was Ray with a shaved head and said, New York City's Straight Edge. And we were on tour with lethal aggression, which was New Jersey Drug Corps. So the exact opposite. I think we were both on this label Funhouse where Caroline in the U.S. licensed into Funhouse.

And so they thought it made sense. So we're traveling the same vans. And we ultimately bonded. It was us against the promoter towards the end of the tour. But, no, Ray has the ability to just, turn any show of hecklers whatever I mean he would just he was really fucking sharp and could just

he would be so energized that you you just follow that you know I was like holy shit that's that inspiration yeah like we played like one of these days it's funny like there's a couple days in life I'm sure everyone has it but where you could like almost make like a movie

about this one day but like there was a show in Belgium for some reason like Belgium got the memo I don't know like that was the one spot that they were like straight edge Like we got there and they fully... There's a whole Belgian straight-edge scene. They knew about it. Yeah, and so we sure enough play the show

and it's packed and it's my birthday. I think it's 13, March 21st. And Purcell had it broken. His leg was in a cast because the first show in Berlin, I think he broke his... They threw confetti and he broke his ankle or something. Because of the confetti.

Yeah. But there was like these four metalheads there throwing beer on the stage. And so at one point in the middle of a song like they're yelling something. Prissel jumps off the stage. Something happens. show goes on

I think Project X actually ended up playing like a surprise show Jordan played Red of Revenge right there Jordan was dressed up like in the band

maybe it's like Walter Jordan me and Purcell or something I guess Alex wasn't with us but anyway so that show is an awesome show and we finish and Ray goes to get some water or something after the show next door

and those metalheads are there and they throw beer on his head and he fucking gets into it with them and it comes back into our venue and a huge fire breaks out these metalheads, these straightage kids, and these metal heads were breaking some noses for some of these straightage kids.

We had the singer for Cheater Crow motherfuckers, his dude Sid was our roadie, and he basically beat the shit out of them and it was a big fight, whatever, it was over. That night, two shows and one night kind of deal. We went and we played to like these just pure fucking Nazi like adults, like adult men with like 100% white tattooed on their neck and like swastikers. But Ray is singing, you know, we have a song called Prejudice

and he's like, this goes out. all you motherfuckers. Like in their face, not backing down. Yeah. And it was scary. And, but, you know, my point being is that you, he was our leader. And so he brings that energy and we follow him, you know. That's what's up.

And we got out alive. But do you feel the writing on the wall of Uza today breaking up by the end of this European tour? A little bit, you know. I mean, I guess, again, just being a little younger, like I was just sort of wrong with it, you know. but a little bit of like, yeah, our singer's like Hari Krishna and he's not really hanging out with us the way we're all hanging out at doing this and he's doing that. And again, two and a half months in Europe

and he had already been in youth day for a long time. So when we got back, I guess when we got back, we probably recorded Disengage. Was it that that early? I mean, it came out in 90, right? That's, you know. Because it came out after bringing it down. Yes.

Yeah. So I'm wondering what the timeline Yeah, I don't know. That one we have to like go to the... Because the last show Youth Today plays in 1989 in Long Beach, California. Okay, Fenders. Why is that the last show? I think that.

Did Revelation come here yet? No. Yeah, Rev might have been out there. I think I was in Australia. One of my best friends was moving to Australia, and me and Matt Pinkis went with him to Australia. And we flew to L.A., played that Youth Today show. And then I think that was the year that Judge and Bold toured from California back to the U.S.

US. And the Mian Purcell played in bold as well. Wow. That's cool. Because Drew had to go to college or something. Okay. And so it was all happening right then. So this is so judge and youth today in 1989, 88 are kind of starting to cross-polling. Yeah. You know, and I guess Ray's starting to go to shelter and Purcell's starting to go on a judge and like that's starting to happen. And you guys are pissed in this other band. Pissed on his other man? You know? Oh. Judge, judge? Judge, like, the spirit of Judge is, like, the opposite of you. I mean, it's, like, it's amazing how quickly things move. Like, that is correct, probably for that one seven-inch.

But then you get, you know, I mean, Mike is, yes, he's the constant. He's pissed to this day. He's still. We're bringing it down, it's pretty pissed, too. Yeah, he's, but I'm- Give it up. Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is, like, Judge just evolved where it was like, Luke was playing,

I think Drew might have played drums for one show. Luke played drums. Jimmy You was in the band. Then I joined the. band then Jimmy is Jimmy the one that's a teacher now yes did you ever see the OG memes about that uh-uh there will be quiet in my class oh that's funny that's amazing that's really funny I didn't know Jimmy that well but he was like a Buddhist it's like Asian dude Buddhist monk insane skateboarder like a dude just like wild kickflips before people were doing it like a black belt

was like we played CB's I remember who's like just throwing like giant like roundhouse kicks backstage getting psyched up. Really sick bass player who's classically trained guitar player. Just a cool, interesting guy. So let's talk about you firmly integrating in Judge officially.

Right. Mike played drums on the New York crew 7 inch. And then Judge becomes something else. How do you officially get brought into the fold and what are your first steps like? Probably just Purcell asking me and then I'm in the band. Because that's your guy.

And probably playing the anthrax. Yeah, just like Luke was doing G.B. And they need a drummer. This is I'm just guessing. But I think that's probably about what happened. It just happened very natural. And then we play. But next to you know, we start writing, bringing it down at my dad's house.

Again, on this rehearsal space on West 11th Street. I want to know the song bringing it down. You said you were starting writing it. How was that? That's like one of my favorite songs of all time. Yeah. I mean, I think Purcell wrote a lot of that music. But the drums are pretty.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't remember that song specifically. I do remember working on, take me away. Perfect. And just trying to get all my fills in there. So it's so you. Or like the song like you, the chorus.

Let me say something. Like you? Yeah. It can be argued that this is the greatest hardcore song of all. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's very cool. Is there any hesitance in doing something like this, like the melody and the shredding and all that?

Like this is kind of an ambitious, unique thing at the time. I mean, let me ask you guys a serious question. Sure. Do you guys like the band Kiss or do you don't like the band? I love Kiss. Kiss is dope. Okay, so I loved Kiss. We kind of skipped over that part.

That was sort of the beginning, the real beginning for me, was I fucking loves Kiss. Yeah. So I would like air drum. We need that. I saw Kiss. I saw Kiss on 3-2-1 contact when I was little and I was just like a huge Kiss fan. I loved the music. I was in Kiss the makeup.

I was like 8 or 9 and just shit's blowing up. I loved it. Purcell also loves Kiss. Perfect. I think that you could hear Kiss in a lot of Purcell. is writing. I can hear it now. It's just very like less Paul, simple. The leads are kind of musical. Yes. The way Ace's leads are musical. That's right. I'm just saying. I don't want to speak for Bressel. I know he pulled from a lot of different shit. I'm sure he's influenced by this is.

But I think there's a kiss connection. We'll find out through him probably one day. Wow. So like you. Yeah, there's a version, a version without that intro. So I think the intro probably came later. But dan, dan, dan, da, da, b, bam. Like that little, like that little, like, sick. patient shit on the ride symbol, like probably got that from that one leeway song. Like there's, it was just like when I learned how to do that, it was like, I remember me and Luke, I feel like we both kind of learned to do that at the same time. Yeah. You know, just trying to get some independence and like do something different on the ride.

And so that's when I put it in a song. I was like, holy shit, this is cool. And then it's all over that record. Yeah. I got that in the song. But then we record. We go to Normandy Sound and War in Rhode Island. Well, let's, let's, yeah, there's, aside from the kiss of it all, the kiss of it all,

right. Judge is like the heaviest hardcore band in the world by 1989. Right, I guess, yeah, I mean, it's important to remember the timing that there weren't, I mean, now, like, metallic hardcore. This is the birth of metallic, like, obviously crossover exists, you know. But in terms of straight up hardcore, like, judge can be, you can look back to judge, where is the heaviness coming from? I think there was a, who's pushing for it. There was a desire in the scene to kind of cross over or break through or get big.

Like, you know, the Cromag's were doing it. And suicidal tendencies had, what, Lights Camera Revolution. Well, and they had been the hardest for the longest time. Well, like, yeah, join the Army. We were listening to Join the Army a lot. You know, there was, like, Headbanger's Ball was on. I think, like, Sick of All was touring with, like, Exodus. Like, it was just like the world was starting to get a little bit, like...

More metal. Just more metal. And like the, you know, it sort of was like, and also like, really, we'd been in our kind of scene for a couple years now. So it's like, let's do something. Yeah. It wasn't like, let's get big. It was just like, let's do something more pissed and more professional. But I don't think, I think the thing that is different is that Judge didn't compromise on how hardcore it was.

It just, like, happened to be heavier in a way that made sense, you know? It goes back to, I think, the formula of, like, when you want to make something like, uh, right? the Lightning or the first Leeway record or whatever. But ultimately you're not that dude. You're this hardcore dude. So you end up getting this combination. And I think that's what Judge was. Judge is special for that reason.

It's the guy from Youth Today making, the guys from music today making head of music. You hear the hardcore formula in the spirit. But then there's like little moments, you know, like I had a splash. I had a china crash. I bought a double bass drum pedal. Although I never really learned how to go, do-d-d-d-d-d-d-d- because I actually played it on the Disengage record. So I would just kind of do this like cheat kind of beat.

Bupat Bada-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-b-b-d-b-b-bd-bbd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-bd-ttt. And bringing it down, I remember being like, oh my God, it's so cool. Wait, is that with double kick? Yeah. I never realized that. I think I thought it was bit-d-b-d-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b-b-d-b... I thought so, too. I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. Dude. Beer, tig-d-d-d-gat. It's well good. And you say it from the bat-da-dabound, bound-in-bown. Wow. I think it was dumb. Yeah, that's sick.

Now I do with a four-town, but... Okay. But, yeah, like, that... And, you know, something about, like, we're talking earlier about, like, direction. Like, Purcell, I remember him telling me about, like, the storm. Like, that's... He loved, like, this caveman shit. Like, he probably wrote the drums to break down the walls.

Maybe Capo did, but... But it's like that, like... Do, do, do... The amount of reverb make your... Yeah. But, like, the primal, like, where it went was also... That definitely came from Bursal, too. Like, do, do, do...

Da, do... Do, do... So that's... He's building out the idea for the drums with the riffs kind. He just loves this, like, remedial caveman shit. That's, like, so simple, but... Well, because after going... Yeah.

For five years... something so satisfying about. But like where it went, like, so it's funny talking about these bands because they all have like that one moment where it's like, oh my God, we wrote this song. And it's like, you know, like so the time is now for a step by side.

But like, where it went for Judge was like, who wrote that bass part? Probably Purcell. Purcell, you're awesome. Because I think with where it went, or sorry, bringing it down the album. So we wrote it. I remember like,

who, we didn't have a bass player, basically. So we went to the studio to make the record, and we tracked the drums, we tracked the guitar, and then Bricel was like, cool, yeah, I'm going to play bass on the record. And is that not normal at the time? I bet some bands did it, but what happened was, this was the first time I think that we ever had a producer that wasn't Don Fury and Tom Sores.

And basically, Purcell started to track the bass, and Tom was like... This is for bringing it down, not for... Yeah. Right. What we should... We're going to get to in a minute. Right, this is for bringing it down.

And Tom was like, you're a guitar player playing like a, you're playing bass like a guitar player. Get me a real bass player. Whoa. Basically like stop. We're not doing this. And Tom

is possibly the greatest hardcore engineer to ever live. You look at his resume and how can you argue? Yes. So he's, he knows what he's talking about. He is.

He, you know, I remember track the drums and again, I thought I played really well and I go in to listen to it and he has like triggers. I was like, I didn't know what triggers were. And so sure enough, like, you know, you hit the standard room, it was like, you know, the ton, do. The craziest.

Everything. But, like, you lose, like, the dynamics. Yeah, you do. So, like, if I'm playing these little roles, like, da, da, da, da, da, da. I'm like, where to go, man? Like, I'm freaking out. But ultimately, like, I really liked the way. I mean, he made us sound way bigger than we were, which was really cool.

It's a really iconic sound. It's the, I mean, it's the huge. Is it the same? You've probably analyzed his records a lot. Like, I started, I had this moment the day. I was like, fuck. Is my snare drum sound? Are my drum sounds the same as...

Like, killing time? Best wishes, killing time. Yes, in a way, but not entirely. Because of the room, it's close, but it's in a way where you're like psyched about it because it's the time capsule of the best sounding records ever. Right, it's not a bad thing, but I just like,

I wonder, like, are they the same exact? I could imagine being in the band and being like, damn, it sounds like this other record, but being a fan or being on the outside, it's like, thank God. Thank God. You know? And here's the thing.

You know that Tom thought you were, good because he didn't try to fly in Dave DeSenzo. That's right. That's right. So great job. Yes. I made the cut. Good observation.

I was, we were well rehearsed. I was taking it serious, you know. Let's go back, though. Okay. Because this is take two of trying to record this record. Oh, yeah, duh. Yeah, you're right. Let's talk about the first time you try to record the judge LP.

Right. At Chung King. Again. So I guess, and this would be like a question for Purcell or someone, but like for some reason, we were like, yeah, let's go back to Chung King. Why? Can they suck it? It was produced by he who can suck it.

Right. Ultimately, it could suck it because we had whatever money we had, which was, we're on Revelation Records. Probably wasn't a lot. So we would get like this night shift from like, you know, 10 o'clock at night to like 6 o'clock in the morning. Right. And they would give us just interns, people who were just like learning.

So like this one dude would like go, you know, a whole long guy's going to the console, come back up. And like, just like doing tons of blow and just you're like, what the fuck's going on? And next day it's someone else. And one guy was like, oh, I lost the floor time. It's like, oh, I got it again. Okay.

And you're just like, fuck, man. Like this, you know, goes back to us thing earlier about it. Just like, yeah, you're in this big studio, but you're not in the right hands, you know. And we were so psyched in our music and proud of it. We recorded it. And I think we came back. I think that was actually, I think it was Judge Chunking where Danzig was also recording Danzig one. I think that was we're not in this alone.

Was it one of this alone? Yeah. Okay. Because we had this back and forth with them where we were like, right, like straight edge on the And then he wrote like a pentagram over it. And then like one morning we were leaving at 6 a.m. And he was like coming in and Purcell just goes straight edge. And he goes, Satan.

You know? Is that your only interaction with them? Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm sorry. That's so funny. Fuck. By chunking. So we get the record back.

We made it. And we were on tour. And I think we got the record. And like those guys were just Mike and Purcell specifically were just really bummed on it. and Jordan basically from Revelation was just like, look, you know, I'll give you guys some more money. You can go re-record it if you want. Which is insane.

It's really cool. But I guess like the process, maybe it was already mastered. Maybe the plates were already cut or like it was already like turned the corner. Yeah. That's why it exists. Yeah, he was just like, all right, you know what? I'm going to press 100 of these white vinyl and we'll call it chunk it can suck it. Because we had a joke, I do declare you can suck it, which came from some, it was a ray thing.

And so... I can't imagine it's like that. Yeah, yeah. It's from something. I'll do declare... Is it like Monty? It sounds like that. Something.

So that's where the suck it came from. Chunkin could suck it. You know, it's pretty clever. Produced by he can suck it. Years later, rival schools went and recorded at Chunking and the dude, a different chunk, when they moved to the west side, and we had a real producer and at better circumstances.

Was he who can suck it there? No, but the owner was there. Don, I want to say his name. was Don King. I mean, that's the boxing guy, obviously. I think Walter said the same thing. I think I made some small talk with him and told him that. And his reaction, he was not very happy about it. He was like, oh, that was you guys, huh?

It's like, I don't know. You kids suck it. What do you want to do? You fucked up. Actually, they had a day where the ADATs didn't lock up or some bullshit, and we wasted the whole day there. And do you get that money back? Probably not. No. Yeah.

And do you own a Chung King today? No. When my daughter was born, 16 years ago, I had a flood in my basement in New York, and I was like, fuck, I'm going to sell some shit and just give it back to the world a little bit. I still have tons of stuff, but I lost a couple records in the flood, but I had a lot of shit. And it was like my first ever experience with eBay, it was totally stressful, but I basically sold like four records. One of them was a junk, I could suck it. I made a lot of money. And then my friend was like, can you help me sell mine?

And I helped him sell his. But yeah, I had like five. Did you lose? Is there something you lost? I want to know. In the flood? Yeah, that you're like, God. It was like not even like where it's like lost, loss.

It's just fucked up enough. You're just like, fuck, this was mint condition. Yeah, that's fucked. I mean, I have, I cannot, I don't know the current market value of a Chung King, but it's significantly more than whatever you sold. Oh, yeah, thousands. It's got to be one of the rarest. Yeah.

For a little bit, it was like this rarest on discourse, second rarest next to a David Bowie thing. Yeah. I think Alex Brown sold a test pressing for like nine grand. Oh, yeah. 10 years ago or something. That's priceless. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

I mean, it's, the coolest part about all this rare shit that we did is that it, the intent at the time was just pure, just like fun. Just like, fuck it. Let's make 25 red vinyl. Okay, cool. Like, you know, let's make a private joke on the Matrix. Yeah. You know, like just fun shit. And you were 16.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you just throughout all those years. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, a lot of that was Alex and Jordan and Ray and some of the, you know, of those guys. But yeah, so that was Chun King, really. And it kind of took its own little life of its own. I mean, some people say they prefer that recording. I think Mike's vocals were fucking amazing. Again, the drums are just like kind of unlistenable for me. Like the snare drum is like

pat, pat, pap, pap. And yeah, it doesn't compare. I think it was a prophetic decision considering how perfect bringing it down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how is that the difference between those two experiences? I mean, totally different. Just being in at the for bringing it down. Although Chunking was a pro studio, but just going away to Warren, it was like one of these, you know, you had like bunk beds. You could sleep there. My buddy, Matt Pinkus, who I'd met, you know, when I was 11 and 12 and we were, you know, best friends and punk together and this and that, he was going to boarding school at a time. And I was like, dude, we need a bass player because he kind of played bass. He filled in for like a G.B. show or two. And

he learned all the songs, came down, tracked it. And we needed, like, artwork. We needed a photo like immediately. So we went to that giant studios. I keep talking about on 14th Street, me and my friend Chris, and literally had to stage a photo, like out of milk crate. I was just like, all right, start jumping, and just like, took a photo of them. So the album cover shot is staged? That the album cover, the backup of Matt jumping. But yeah, then Matt's in the band.

And then eventually we were like, yo, if we're going to be really metal, like we want to be metal, we need to, we need two guitar players. And that's where we got Lars. Yeah. And then we were like, like, we're running away. You think Kiss is making all these, like influencing this metal influence? For me, 100%. So you needed your Space Ace, basically.

I mean, I was just like... You know, I would say like throughout life for me, I think it does, there's like a showmanship element that probably you could trace back to Kiss of like... Wow. You know, I'll walk into a show with any of my bands now. Like, you see your projector. Like, okay, cool.

Like, what do we do? Lights out. Okay, intro on projector, like the show, right? Like, I mean, aside from rehearsing and being tight and playing the song, it's like, let's make it the best it could be. There's a difference between performing and playing. Yeah. And yeah, you could trace that back to kids.

Like, what if the monitors are there so kids can stage stuff? Okay, let's do the community. I mean, that's, that's 101. Yeah, but just, you know, all these things that, like, that's where my brain goes. I can't say the same for everybody in my bands. Yeah. You know, I'm just, like, thinking,

how do we make this show better, you know? Yeah. It's awesome. You did it. You did it. I mean, this record is so different from where I'm in the salon. Three-minute songs, more mid-tempo. it's as metallic as hardcore gets, as we've said.

Colors sample. Exactly, yeah. See, there's cool shit like that. Does this feel like a natural progression of what you guys are just more into at the time? Like, are you Sammy the hardcore kid more into Judge when it comes time for this? Yeah, because, again, I was so fucking straight edge.

I loved being straight edge, and Judge was like super fucking straight edge, a little more musical because I love playing drums. So now I get to do musical shit. I got that 10-inch rackton. Oh, yeah. China Crash from a splash, double bass drum pedal. I'm like, now I'm kind of like playing music.

And we just like the leeway record, Born and Expire and Cromag's, you know, and suicidal. And like we're listening to Join the Army, like loving that stuff. Still loving other stuff, you know, for sure. But, um... Bigger ideas. Yeah. And, you know, again, we broke off probably around that time and did Project X. Yeah.

And then... Was Project X first? Yeah, we were. That was 87. Yeah, because I'm like, is that the first taste of kind of like fuck you. And I feel like, Judge kind of gives that. Yeah, we'd have to, you know,

with Porcel kind of being involved. You guys should make like a timeline thing that. Yeah, it is. It is, it is interesting. There's no like months. It's just years. Yes, it all is kind of jammed up. But no pun intended, I think this record is like

truly a perfect storm of performances. Because you're, you're this young man finding himself on the kit. Porcel is like revealing himself to be this shredder. Yeah. And Mike, like, this is maybe the greatest recorded hardcore vocal performance. He had all the lights out.

I mean, I remember like going to, like, oh, cool, Mike's doing vocals. Let me go and see what he's doing. I was like, where is he? It's like, all the lights were out, and he was just, like, in the corner and just busted it out. It is perfect. Yeah, it's pretty. What does your, like, you talk about witnessing Ray do all of where not this alone in one take. Is that the case for this?

Different, way different energy. Mike to Ray, you know. This is hateful music. I imagine just a fist, like anger, just wanting to punch a human being with it. Yeah. It's just, yeah, it's powerful. I mean, the whole record is like,

it was just cool, like just being, I remember when we were tracking guitars, like there was four cabinets all facing each other, which I guess is like taboo, right? It's going to say, yeah, usually not a good idea. I know, right? But that was, I'm pretty sure. I've asked for some of it.

It worked. It worked great. It worked great. the middle. That was really cool. And then we tore you know, decent amount, right? Like, I think we went around the U.S. that one time I was talking about and then we went again and then recorded the Storm 2 or whatever. Yeah, forget this time. There will be quiet after the storm. Yeah, forget this time. I think because we just

like played the storm better. And there's that added that is that extra bridge. We had a breakdown in the middle. So we're like, fuck, we have to record this. But we also, Purcell, we wrote forget this time. I, yourself, you know, wrote it and Mike, and, uh, which, again, that was like another level of advanced music. Like, that was just like, holy shit. You keep doing this. You get to this advanced music and then the band ends.

Right. Yeah. Do you feel like you're the problem? This keeps happening to you. I think, you know, I just know this because, I worked on this little documentary with my friend about judge, so, you know, I learned a lot about it. And, like, in it, my. talks about

just like, yeah, just getting burnt out and, you know, the hard kind of... Kids were kind of taking a little bit too literal, literally, literally. You got it. You know, what he was saying, and it just kind of came back and it bummed him out to a point where

I think it just, the band had ran its course after that one tour, and then we broke up, yeah. It's just, hardcore seems to have this, every band has these like two-year shelf lives. Yeah. Except youth of today was a little longer because there's two LPs, two seven inches, which is, which is more than most bands did. But these things that are lasting forever exist in these tiny pockets of time. Yeah. I mean, you look at like, say the clashes, output was what, five years, or the Beatles was like five years. Seven, yeah. But yeah, and like just, you know, the difference

between ninth grade to 11th grade or, you know, 18 to 22 or whatever. Yeah. I want to know When you said people were taking it to literal, what do you mean by that? They're like, I'm fucking straight-edge. It started to get into that thing of just like, you know, you heard like someone's carving an X and someone's back with a razor. I mean, yeah.

Like someone blew up a fucking McDonald's and like... Hear me out. Yeah. Pretty dope. Right, right. I'm throwing, you know, carving an X anyway. It just kind of got like a little... I mean, again, I, my perspective, being younger,

like, I'm not the front man. So if you're, I got to imagine that if you're Ray Cap or if you're Mike, judge like you're up front you're don't you gotta yeah sing the shit and get to these people's faces so it's like a different thing like totally you know from my perspective it was um sure it was different in 89 than it was in 87 but it was still cool soon was getting bigger and yeah you know the south was always the south back then yeah we ended that tour in the south and it was there was some fights and some bad shit I think when when the moment and give it up when he goes what the fuck yeah when you're playing that on drums do you go you're just feeling it I would

be I would get chills every time. There's so many parts like that. Yeah, Mike's special. Really, really, we are. He sounds fucking better than ever. He does. He sounds great. He does. Sounds great. What's interesting,

what you're describing is like how Ray felt about breakdown the walls, where he's seeing this message work too effectively around the country. Where he's like, oh no, everyone is me now. And then Mike is like, fuck that. I'm going to do my own

thing, singing my band and sing some different shit. And then everybody does that. and you're describing him being like, this is too much, I got to stop. The drugs didn't get you if I don't get to you first. Like, people were kind of running with that. Like, oh, yeah.

Fuck these dudes up, you know. But yeah, I could see, again, like, they're the singers and they write the lyrics and they're, you know, up there in the front. Yeah, it feels a certain way for them. How much did Judge covering Led Zeppelin kind of confuse the zeitgeist at the time? Yeah. I think it was a little bit confusing.

I mean, I think it meant, a lot to Mike and it's and us I mean it was cool at the time it was just like yeah like this is a cool song I was not a huge Led Zeppelin fan I guess so I didn't I wasn't like as psyched maybe as Mike but you hear shung gung gung good good good good yeah it's fine yeah yeah yeah no it was it's yeah yeah it was sure it was saying I was saying guys let's cover fucking king of the nighttime world that would be so years later when sieve got to open up for me so years later when sieve got to open up for kiss of the garden just to jump ahead a decade. That was a moment.

That's a big moment. For me. Yeah. I was done. I was like, all right, we're good. That's awesome. You deserve it, dude. It was fun. But yeah, the judge broke up, what was that, 89? And you don't, and you just think Mike was over it, so judge is gone. Just think, like, yeah, we'd been through, I mean, again, like, so much had happened in

those two years. Two years. A few band members already. you know some couple records and music and just tours like that was we didn't tour a lot back in the day like when Mike was in Death Before a Sonner like I doubt they toured much

like the US or whatever so like that was a lot to do two full US tours and all the shit it was we never went to Europe but yeah we broke up and then I think I joined GB I was in grill biscuits again I was back

you're back how did you get asked to do that I think that Luke probably went to college and they were like fucking in a drummer so we were all friends and stuff were all still hanging out together

the scene was still pretty happening and I joined G.B. what in 90? And then went to Europe in like 91? Yeah, 91 I went to Europe for like two months or something. It's so funny that G.B. has one record this whole time and it's like the one that's kind of always there.

Great album. And the seven inch. Yeah, of course but one LP, never did anything else again, still rocking to this day. They started early enough, I think, and resonated with the whole scene. Yeah, it speaks to the music, I think, and also the message and the whole vibe of that band, it's like, you know, where a judge was kind of like,

all right, like, we're fucking this, and if you're not with this, then fuck you. And Youth Today was kind of had a little bit of that too. And GB is a little more kind of come on, Kamal. You're all invited. It's a little more inclusive. And I think it... Which is honestly awesome.

Yeah, yeah. We love that. Yeah, for sure. How cool is it to look back, though, as, I mean, in real time, kind of see that Judge becomes this band of like, hey, you're getting in hardcore, okay, here's these 10 records you need to hear, and bringing it down as one of them.

Yeah. I think that stuff came later a little bit, right? Internet. Internet and some of that and just how it all, you know, everyone in a way has been getting their moment. Bands that didn't even mean that much back then have kind of gotten some sort of shine in a cool, which is cool, you know, that's,

though I think the world we live in now with the internet and we can, like, do a deep dive on beyond or something or whatever it may be. Beyond LP is, you know, it's really special, but it was so, back then it was so niche. Like, you weren't really, it wasn't getting out. It's nice that we get to the opportunity to do that. Yeah, you know.

Yeah. So, yeah, for bringing it down for any of these records, like it's all really, it's kind of just a nice bonus to all this shit that, because back then. Do you have any nitpicks about bringing it down? musicly. On your own personal performance,

honestly, man, that one does not fucking bug me, man. That's good. Because it's fucking perfect, yeah, like, I think, I don't know, like we just played well. Tom hooked it up.

Just trying to think of all the songs in that record. You like the way the drums sound entirely because I remember you were saying earlier that the trigger thing was kind of a turn on that first. Once I got my head around the trigger

and I think he was able to hand adjust, he was like, we can go back and adjust some of these, you know, go... The velocity. The velocity. 127. Yeah.

Once that got adjusted and that was like, okay, cool, I can do this. No, I really like it. I mean, and the big triggered reverb is like you just sound like the biggest guy on the biggest kid ever. And to be honest, it kind of is just my opinion because some of the other guys feel differently. But like the Forget This Time EP sounds so small when I listen to it. Yeah, I mean, we're back at Don's. You're back at Don's. And it just like, fuck, it's such a, forget this time specifically, it's such a sick tune that if it has.

had that. The Tom production? Jez. The Jeann. Yeah. One of my favorite things that I've seen you do multiple times in the wild

is taking pictures of people's judges, judge shirts from afar. It's just fun seeing. You know, I've been making a lot of merch like in life recently, just from my bands,

for trust records, revelation, all this shit. So when I see it in the wild, like, it's like, oh, cool, it actually looks good and a human or, you know, like. Or you'll see an old one.

You'll go, know this cool by the song I forget this time I think at some point I kind of had as a drummer just like cool like the fill in the beginning is sort of your signature as a time to go

and I moved to L.A. 14 years ago and I had this advertising job my daughter was like two and I was like up at like seven to drive to this like and living in this new fucking place I have a car and I can really drove before

and I'm just like fuck man I get in the car and it was right when like Judge had gotten back probably 2013 we had announced these shows at Webster Hall I turn my car on and I turn the radio on I'm like

what the fuck man it's like nothing coming out I just hear like some crackling like a vinyl and I just hear do cut cut cut and it was KXLU I think on Tuesdays they had like a hardcore show and they fucking played forget the stuff

that's awesome right there perfect I got my car and I just cruised away I was like yeah so sick that's a sign beautiful sign this is not judge related okay could you tell me

the first person in life that you remember who broke edge that truly disappointed you? I mean, probably amongst my bros, like probably my buddy Matt Pinkis, you know, who was like kind of my mentor in a lot of ways like with punk. You know, he was just like, I was in a punk, I was 11, he was 12,

he was really fucking punk. You know, he had a mohawk and he ran away from home and he was just like, you know, looked up to there and then, you know, he kind of became a straight-edge and I became straight-edge and we were both just like all about it. And then, yeah, like as we got older, I don't know, like 20 or something, 21,

but probably like cigarettes, maybe like smoking cigarettes or something and just being like, fuck, dude, like what the fuck, man? My other friend, Chris, probably as well. And, you know, it started to happen where kind of around this time when I was in GB again, like it's interesting when you see photos of GB in 91, it was just like this, you could feel it and it was changing everywhere, right? So dudes were breaking edge And we're getting into different music

Walter's drinking margaritas Walter's playing bass A turquoise bass with like a daisy sticker on it And I'm playing drums with my De La Sol t-shirt on We're in Europe You know, Siv's got this craziest hair Still around and like We're just like all just bugged the fuck out

Purcell's wearing all white We used to call him Stephen Seagal Like hit his hair all slits back Tom Capone's in the band He just looks like some sick Like Celtric Frost dude with like fucking Oh yeah Just listening to his Walkman

The whole entire tour Not talking anybody you know we're just you know that was just us and then forget about like what was going on to form into another or you know how do you feel about into another i think it was cool i mean there's all this it kind of ties into what i'm saying about like this next wave of music um i saw that into another shelter yeah i mean internet specifically i didn't totally get it i saw their i think the first show at the pyramid club and i was like whoa like holy shit this is rich he's an event like i loved underdog so my brain i just want to hear fucking underdog but

But ended up, I was in a band called Loaded with the guitar player, Ian Love, from rival schools and myself, Alice Napax from pressure release. And this dude, Tijon was singing for a little bit. We toured within to another to like Chicago and back. And so, you know, when you tour with the band, listening to it every night. You know it by heart. Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm in. That's one of my favorite bands, ball and shit's really good. Yeah, that's some real musical genius coming from record.

And Drew's shit drumming in particular. Yeah. I don't ignore us, man. It's fucked. I mean, I loved Bold. I loved Crippled Youth, too. Underrated. That time of the scene was, you know, what we could talk about, but it was just very interesting.

Even like the Krishna stuff was maybe the most, getting to be the most popular thing too. And am I wrong? Yeah, yeah. I mean, shelter was definitely starting to happen. I mean, the first, you know, the EP in the first two records. But then, like, we were, and they were all living. They were, like, those were my buddies from the past, whatever we've just been talking about. And now they're kind of gone.

They literally, like, live in a temple. Like, they're, you know, all, like, just like, monks. And it was kind of like, all right, guys. Like, you know, we'd seem around, but it was, you know, we're all, everyone's just kind of going their own sort of way at that point. You know, at the last G.B. show I played, like, this dude got stabbed. And a G.B. show? It was, yeah, like, it was a lot of violence in the scene.

You know, there was a lot of, like, just, you know, nothing lasts forever. So the New York scene was changing. But it's nothing lasts forever, but everything changed in four years. Yeah. From 86 to 90? We're talking like Kromag's being Krishna too and like on our best wishes. Yeah. You know?

And it's crazy to hear that and think about like our band has been around for 17 years. Yeah, 17 years. I'll probably see with your band so too, like you start to learn to new chords. Maybe you want to do a side project and a side project. You figure out what a time signature is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's what I did?

Okay. Didn't know what that meant. Yeah, you start to just when you're listening to your music. Yeah. Maybe you're getting into girls. Maybe you get into, whatever it is, you're like. Like, you're just, it's, you're no longer, for me, I was no longer 13, 14, 15. Yeah.

15 now, I'm like 18, 19, 20, 21. Well, and it's a curse a little bit because now I overthink everything. Totally. Because I know how to do it, I know when I'm doing it bad, you know? So then you just get this paralysis of like, this is not good. This is not as good as that thing. So it cannot exist. So it's going to take years and years and years to do anything else.

And then I look at all these bands I love from New York and they make one LP and then they break up. Yeah. I'm kind of fascinated with the post record that people made that at the time I was just like fuck this you know like the second uniform choice record not so that I really listened to that that much but like or like the second Dagnancy record or like the bold seven inch

the time was just like huh and then now you get it you're like wow this is so cool I just think it's interesting and I get why it happens and I get yeah I appreciate it or seven seconds the war's on record though the next war's on Not so much. Warzile was more of a purist.

Yeah, I mean, it's... Well, you hear a drum machine on a war's arm record and they're like, what is happening to the world? I don't even think I listen to it. Is that the... Self-titled. That's after in my... I opened my eyes.

Yes. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, I was just, the seven-inch to me was the greatest, one of the greatest things ever made. It is still. It's so fucking good. Yeah.

Where would Rev be today without the Warzone seven-inch, you know? I mean, it's not even available. We're hopefully going to try, we're trying to get that one together for Rev 40 next year. That's good. Love it. Yeah. Let's go back a little bit. Sure.

And talk about Disengage. Yeah. The final Youth of Today release was a three-song 7-inch titled Youth of Today, also known as now, the Disengaged 7-inch. What is your perspective on how this record comes to be? Because Youth of Today is broken up as it's being made, correct? Right. So how does this happen?

I don't remember exactly how we probably started writing for an album and then probably just stopped at an EP. But what I do know, which is interesting, is like, just the songwriting, like, you could hear where it's all going, where, like, modern love story is definitely a Ray Kappo song. Like, musically, lyrically, you know, it's just, that's very Ray. And it's the only one on that record. It's only one. That's Ray's song. Disengage is Walter's song.

Yeah. Pretty melodic, really good fucking song. You know, that's, like, what he brought to. Envy. Really fucking you. Envy is Purcell song. And it's so judged. It's so judge.

Yeah. And so, like, you hear kind of where it's all going. there was a fourth song which retract it's called one night stand and it was a partridge family cover oh shit it's really good i never heard it yeah we got to hear it you got to hear it it's out there somewhere uh one night's stand that was raised idea because he loved the partridge family and uh it's just lyrically it's a cool song and um it musically too it was good but just didn't make the record but that was it You know, that was our record. And I don't know, like, the timeline of, like, how many shows we played after that.

But it was, we recorded Don Furies. I think it was zero, right? Yeah, because you came back. 89, you said, right? So, 89 and at Rev. So we just put it out, and that was it? And then it came out in 1990. I think so.

Yeah. And, like, do you remember playing these songs before? Right. I don't even know if we played it live. Yeah, that's a good point. And you've recorded a Modern Love Story twice in your life. Oh, what was the other time? Oh, right, with Glassjaw.

Oh, shit. And I got ready to come. come up and sing it with Darrell. How cool is that? So sick. Yeah, I mean, those dudes, you know, Glass Chug, they appreciated old school hardcore. So when I was able to, I don't know how that idea came.

Yeah, and I probably just mentioned it or something. You mentioned it? I guess. Probably brought it up. And then, yeah, Ray was visiting California. We were making that record up at Indigo Ranch in 99 in August. And Ray came by the studio and the two of them sang it. It was cool.

Can't wait to get into that. Yeah. Six years ago in your N-Fourniz. effect interview, you put disengage in your three favorite recordings you ever played on. You still feel that way? Six years ago in what video?

In your in effect interview. Oh, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. What was it? Your personal favorite, like, performances on a record. I don't think I feel that way, really. I'm going to say I was misquoted. Okay. Damn, I'm definitely happy with the way I played on it.

It's really good, but as far as, like, you know, I think rival schools, pedals maybe, or glass job. Oh, dude, that record's so good. Last straw is... Everything I want to talk about silence or... I can't wait to talk about the glass. Bringing it down, I think you had as number four.

Bring it down just because it sounds good. Like, Diso Ging is really good. It's kind of similar to, for me, it's similar to... No, Diss to Don. I love Don Fury. But it just sort of... When you start making... I guess now we're talking about a bunch of records, like, it's not as big as I want it to be,

you know, as like kind of similar to, um, uh, forget this time. You know what I mean? Like it's, the performance was good. Yeah. I think performance was really going to disengage, but it's, yeah.

Does this feel important to you at the time? Disengage. Youth today was, I guess, always like, even now, just it's always just a little, it's just the most important.

Because I was just... Because you hold it on this pedestal as a fan. I do, because I'm a fan, you know, and so it's just really special. So that, you know,

that, yeah, felt important, I think, at the time. It came out while you were probably playing it. You just joined, Gorilla Biscuits.

Right? Yeah. Yeah, probably like I could see we were starting to talk about making a Gorilla Biscuits record. I could see Walter wanting to kind of get more serious about G.B. And then Disengage comes out.

Yeah, Ray's now in Shelterland and Disengage just kind of does its thing. Such an interesting thing. Yeah. And Purcell was starting to become more of a devotee too. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was just again. Is that disappointed to you

with Purcell being your guy this whole time? No, I mean, to be not so much because I was also starting to like, you know, we were starting to get like not so much straight edge and just into just other facets of life. Tell me about your journey with straightage. Well, just that, you know, again,

it kind of goes with the timing. I don't know how old I was, probably 91. But like, probably around that time, I was like not straight edge maybe anymore. But GB had broken up and my friend was like, hey, do you want to, I'm in this reggae band called 32 tribes. Do you want to play drums in this?

and it's with us. And I was like, sure, reggae, like, it's easy, whatever. And I joined him. It's like, fuck, reggae's really hard. It's really hard. And it was cool because these kids all went to the United Nations School, UNIS. And so they were all, like, real, like, their parents were all, like, diplomats and shit. So, like, the singer, guitar player was from Ghana.

The singer was from Sierra Leone. The bass player was Jamaican. You know, the other guitar was Pakistan. The other guy was Iranian. There's no information about this band online. 32 tribes. You sent me the promo photo. Yeah.

There's nothing. We rehearsed our asses off. We had tons of. songs. We played a lot of shows. We played some really cool shows. We opened for like Ika mouse. We opened for HR a couple times. We drove up to the haunt in Ithaca in the winter and played with HR. There was like five people there because he had canceled so many times. He showed up with the dat of his record and lip synced to the dat and just danced. And I was so excited. It was like, holy fucking shit, dude, HR for the bad brains here. I went up to him.

I was like, dude, I was like, I was in youth today. Fucking bad brands. We had all Youth Today, Hardcore, What's Up? And he just looks at me, just goes, Rastafari, he just walks away. And I was like, okay. Have you had many other interactions with him ever? A couple, not too many. That's awesome. But that was a good lot.

For real. You're like, what do you say? Are you mad? For some reason, we went on after him, and then he ended up actually singing with us. Like, just kind of crept up on the side of the stage. And I'm like, oh my God, HR's on stage singing. Just like ad living? Yeah, just ad living.

Straight up God. But it was really fucking cool because what, like from, you know, he's, 80, yeah, like the past like five years, I was in Deep Harcrowlands. And now I'm in this other scene. Like we're playing colleges. Like colleges have like a spring fling fund. So we're getting like a nice amount of money to play Princeton to play Vassard. I never went to college.

So like now we're like going to colleges. And, you know, there's girls there and it's fun. And just like in this whole other world. Yeah, a different world. Which was really cool. And then kind of around that time started this band loaded that I mentioned earlier, which, you know, because Nirvana's happening. and Allison Chains and Pearl Jam.

It's like, I want me to fucking kind of... You want to rock. A little bit like that. And Ian, my buddy Ian Love wrote these songs where it's like, fuck, he's a really good songwriter. So I'm doing 32 tries and I'm doing that. And then right around then,

Ray Capo and John Purcell come back and say, hey man, we're making this record mantra. Do you want to work on this record with us? We started writing together, Messer's Bhagavad, a couple of those songs. Oh, you wrote some of that? Demo did it. Yeah, like there's a demo that I'm playing on.

I need to hear that. And what happened? And then I think Loaded was happening and Loaded was about to get a record deal. And SIV started to happen. Yeah. Yeah, that meant that. And then Siv got a record deal. And then for some reason, oh, you know what?

Basically, those guys in shelter, they didn't want to pay me to play on it. It was like two. It didn't make sense. Sure. But then they got Dave DeSenzo. And my God. And he crushed it. He's a good.

You ever met him? I never met him. Have you? Never. Yeah. Shredder. Yeah, the record is really good. It's very good.

Yeah. I'm going to go maybe a little too good. I can see it, but it's not. You're right. But like, very good, not bad at all. I want that for, for, I don't know if I, after hearing it, I don't know if I would want anything else. I mean, I would like to hear you on whatever the demo is.

Well, the demo is sort of cool. It's definitely not as polished, you know. Not as good. He's a fucking shred. With the drums. totally different? No, no. That one was like...

Because that's like a lot of drums going on. Yeah, you could hear that like... I listened to her recently actually. Someone sent it to me out, sent it to guys. I would love to hear it. You could hear like how some things that he that I was doing that he did. He heard it.

Oh, okay. Other songs he wrote on that? Not that I wrote, but like... Or like had a part of? But it just, we pre-proed. Like, we definitely went and rehearsed for a while. There's a... Is it called Letter to a Friend?

Is that a song on that? Yeah, Letter of Friend was on it. He says side by side on that, does he not? Yeah. Is that a reference? I don't know. Maybe. And I just thought of that right now.

And I'm like, oh, man, is that a letter to? Probably. Probably is a witty songsmith. I always wondered that now that you're here now. Long story short about that, like 92, 93, 94 time was that, yeah, like 32 tribes loaded and then eventually SIV and like 95 kind of happened. But those years were really cool looking back. Like I did go to college.

I went to the new school because. My friends were going to college. Like, fuck, I have to go to college, I guess. I went to the new school, they had a jazz program, study jazz. Did you finish college? No. I went for a year and a half, and then Siv got signed to Atlantic, and I fucking knew about. But it was just a fun, like, it was a fun time.

And again, like, Orange Nine Millimetres happening. Walter's doing, I played in Moondog for like a show, I think. The pre-quick Sand Band, right? Yeah. Although I did actually play in Shelter. I'll back it up. Yeah, you sure did. But in Shelter for a little bit, and we did tour because I booked this tour.

from my house, from my mom's house, where I grew up on 15th Street. I had a little phone in my bedroom, and I got a list of numbers. And why, like, are you psyched to be in shelter? I was psyched, because it was like Sharonogarty, free will, probably, and then I'm in shelter, but I booked this tour, and it was Quicksand Inside Out shelter to Minneapolis and back. That's perfect. And like, you know, basically, like, I've told this story a few times,

but, like, we were, you know, Quicksand had like a van. Walter was singing, not playing guitar. I think Charlie Griego was playing guitar also. And so there was a quicksend was doing the own thing. Shelter and Inside Out were rolling. We had a van for like the non-Hari Krishna, so it was like Zach and me and Purcell wasn't really a devotee yet. And, you know, Alex from Chain and Strange.

And then there was a school boss filled with Harry Christians, and then there was a Winnebago with the Maharaj. She was like the Grand Puba kind of dude. And who's paying for the Winnebago and the school bus? Maybe some Krishna funding was in there. I don't quite know because we would just be driving. And, you know, I had toured before, so I knew what a tour was supposed to feel like.

felt a little different because we're driving, we pull over on the side of the road and, like, out comes, like, these, like, soup and, like, they're making, like, soup and, like, it's, like, Prashatam time and on the side of the road. And then, like, every day, basically, Ray would, like, pick us off and be like, all right, so we're leaving at, like, nine. And, like, Sammy, today, you're going to ride with the Maharaj. And it's like, I don't want to ride with the Maharash. She's like, come on, you have to ride with the Maharaj. So then, like, I'm in Winnebago now with this, like, you know, older man who's, like, basically, like, what do you think the meaning of life?

is, you know, for like the next six hours. You're like, I don't want to think about that. Yeah, I want to be talking with Zach and Dressel telling jokes. We had laughing her ass off. We had this thing called the conch, which was like this bright fluorescent orange hat, like a can go that we'd, whoever had the conch got to speak. And what you're like 18, 19 at this time? Yeah. So you are prime. They want you bad. Oh yeah. You're moldable. You're malleable. They were going after Zach, me, you know. And we were all open to a pitch. There's good message there, but, you know, that's not for you right now. But Purcell ultimately, you know, went. And but it was a fun tour. And it was you know like looking back it was like a lot of um you know like inside out was amazing

Zach was amazing quicksand was you know the very beginning they were fucking great and so it was fun I mean quicksand headlined that no shelter it was shelter was there at then set out what year was that do you remember uh I'm gonna say 91 and do you feel like shelter is like your band no not really you feel like you're just kind of there's so many I mean I mean I you know in recent years I've been with them for a bit but it's It's like, Shelters had so many different, you know, different lineups and stuff and so many records. Like, that's the thing about Ray and Purcell, but, like, I think it's just fascinating and Walter, too, like, but their output. Yeah.

Like, just the amount of records that Shelter has. It's insane. It's fucking crazy. And there's records that are, like, after, like, we play South America, and they're more interested in the records after Mantra. You know, Beyond Planet Earth. They want that Beyond Planet Earth. I don't even know, like a Turner as a record, the Scott, like, a birthday song, like all this. It's just fascinating.

And Europe is into 20 summers past and, you know, mantra for sure. Me, I want to play in here, you know, turn it around and, you know, photographs. Because you're your hardcore kid. I just because that record was so, I thought, I mean, they're all really good. But that record, that first record, I didn't play on it, but it was recorded live at the anthrax. Yeah. And that was his way of, like, saying goodbye to hardcore, he said. Yeah, but it's just so good.

Like TC3 playing. and then those dudes from 76% insert. That drummer, Bill, was really good. Who runs all these Instagrams? I run a lot of them. Yeah. I kind of got a fit. I had a feel.

You start to see a pattern or when the likes come up. It seems like something Sammy was. Yeah, I'm kind of deep. You know, again, it goes back to Kiss. Like, I'm kind of wired. Bring it back to Kiss every time. I'm kind of wired on this like, just want it to be buttoned up. You know, if we have a show, I know that you got to tag and post, you know,

tag this person and include a ticket link. You'll be amazed by how many people don't. They don't get it. Whatever. Well, what's awesome is, like, you coordinated that episode we did with Ray. Yeah. And you just sort of so on it and you know it all and you're making shit happen. And then I pick Ray up and he goes, what's the name of the podcast again?

Oh, yeah. And it's just like, this is perfect. He's great. They're all great and they all care and they all, you know, couldn't do without any of them. But, like, they're just not. Everyone's got their own strengths, right? Somebody's got to steer the shit. Yeah, and drummers are like that.

You know, the people say. You're either in the. insane or you're so insane. I'm saying because you're 12 years old and you know you have to play this. Yeah. You do it. When I was in side by side at 12, they would let for some, I have the thing like the day. Like I would have the money. I would have the kiddie. That's so funny. Like I don't know why. I would just like this lot of like singles and fives and just like that. Yeah. You know, and I would like meet this kid who made stickers and like, you know, he gives a batch of stickers or, you know, made. I remember like making that big, there's like the photo of like the banner we had it

said side by side. Like, I made that my living room. Like, I was just... You like making stuff. The way other kids were doing it for their baseball team, like I was doing it for my bands. That's awesome. Now, and when you're in like middle school and high school, you're touring. Yes. How much school are you missing to do all these? So a lot of the shows happen on weekends

or like winter break or something like that, so you're not really missing much. What happened was in 88, Youth Day goes on tour, two and a half months, come back. I was going to this private school called McBurney where actually Richie Burkenhead went, and Adam Horowitz went there and a bunch of different people and Bernie moved from one building

to a new building and I guess they couldn't afford it or something got fucked up and my mom was like oh you're schooling out of business and I was like what? That's a weird thing mid-school shit

I was like my friend Molly Molly Rubin whose sister is Sarah Rubin who's on the cover of the way it is right another girl that's next to these two girls one is Sarah Rubin one is Sarah James Sarah James is the sister of Todd James

very well-known graffiti writer Reese and an artist. And Sarah Rubin, Sarah Rubin's sister, Molly Rubin, went to PCS, professional children's school. So I was like, Mom, why don't we check out Sari's Molly School, PCS?

And we visited it. Next thing you know, I went there. And what was cool about that is they allowed you to go on correspondence, which basically meant you're allowed to go pursue your professional things. Like the Cosby kids went there. McCauley Colcom went there,

like real professional people. So we're on the salon European tour. Well, coincidentally, but that European tour was February and March. March during the school year. So I was allowed to go. Very cool.

And I was like, but I was learning about the Nazis and I was visiting. You were. Yeah. You know, and I would go learn by the Roman Empire and I was in Rome. And like, you know, so I was able to kind of do it. Now, do our kids at school like, man, Sammy's in youth today. That's crazy. No, not really.

They, um, not really. They weren't, they were not. I was kind of like just in my own little lane. Just like. I get that. Dude, coming home from tour and be like, fuck. Yeah. Got to wake up for a school.

Yeah. No, I still failed. I failed math in Spanish and I had to go to summer school. Yeah, I've been there. But it was a cool school. It was all a lot of models. Okay.

And a lot of like... It looks sense, dude. There you go. Exactly. Look at you. Yeah, you were there. Awesome. It was fun.

Now today, do you play these disengaged songs a little harder than the rest of them? We don't play envy enough. I wish you played that more. That song is so hard, man. I know. I think we just have to like relearn it or something. And again, you end the fucking band on this crazy different, like, experimental thing.

Yeah, yeah, it's cool. You got this pattern going on. But yeah, disengage. I like to, I lean into it. And especially the intro to the mosh part, it's fun. What's the dynamic like with you for today? It's the same for motherfuckers on the state. It's really good, man.

I was texting with Ray this morning. You know, like, we're just like brothers and shit. It's really fucking special. It's super cool. I'm very grateful for it. They just, you know, we drive me crazy a little bit with logistics sometimes when, you know, things like, did you book your flight? Did you go, like, sometimes a guy will double book.

He's got a lot of stuff going on. Walter? Oh, did you say Walter? No, I said, well, I mean, like, you know, yeah, Walter double booked himself. I see. You know, it happens sometimes. Like, you know, little things like that, but it's ultimately it's all good and it's life. And we're all, you know, we're adults and we all have kids and we're all like doing a lot of shit.

But I think we all appreciate what we have. We know that it might not be around much longer. And the fucking songs are great and they're fun to play. And I think, you know, we're connecting with people, which is really what it's about. And people show up. And I think, like, that show we played at Edgeman. The Times, yeah, the Edgman show. You guys were one of the best shows we ever played.

So psyched to be there. It was, you know. I saw everyone's emotions. We were feeding off the crowd. And it's like, so you never know when you're going to get. Yeah, yeah. Like, they're all good. But you never know when you get like an extra special one.

Yeah. The timing of that, the place of it all, I think it was everybody needed it. And all of us as being fans, all of our friends were there too. Yeah. And it was like a real, it was special for us in that way too. So, you know, it's, yeah, it's cool. Again, I'm super lucky, blessed, too. When do the call start regularly coming in for you to be this like studio session fill-in guy?

I was never that dude. I feel like it was primarily on the West Coast. And I was always more of like, although I did do playing a lot of bands, I feel like I'm always been more of like a monogamous. Like I want to like, let's all, you know, kind of sing together or swim together. Like I want to be in it with my bros. Like the idea of like a session where you're like, yo, nice to meet you, learning songs. Great.

Here's your money. See you later. It doesn't excite me as much. Same. And I haven't done a lot of that. I've done a little bit of it. I mean, I did some cool, like there's some bugged out shit. I mean, like live, I played with Patty Smith once, which was pretty bugged out because I knew this kid Oliver who went to that professional children's school.

somehow ended up dating Patty Smith and they're like, I don't know, 40 years apart or something crazy. But they lived, I lived on my Dougal Street. They live down the block. One day he's like, yo, Sammy's like, Patty's drummers away and they've got this benefit gig and do you want to do it? And I was just like, oh yeah.

Like yes, that's awesome. Yes. That was cool. And then the Glass Jar record, which ultimately led to the Limp Biscuit record. Yeah, let's talk about it. But the Glass Jar Record was like, you want to talk about the Glass Draw record first? Yeah, let's do it.

I mean, that started, that started as a set. I mean, it was a session, essentially. Like, Mike Gitter, who was our hardcore friend of the show. Good dude. Great guy. Everybody knows, Mike. Mike was Siv's A&R guy at Atlantic, and basically was at Roadrunner, and Ross Robinson, the producer, had an imprint label called IAM Records,

and they were going through demos or something, and he found Glassjaw and started working with him. And Ross was the kind of guy who was just like, great band, first day pre-production. I guess he was like, this drummer is just not going to fucking work. fired the drummer, needed drummer, Mike recommended me. Because of... Because of our SIV relationship, I think.

Okay, nice. And before that, I mean, Mike's an old hardcore so he knew me. And so I was like, sure. You know, so I show up. And now I'm like, A, the older dude, I've never been the older guy. You were the youngest guy in the room?

That's crazy. I used to be the youngest guy. Now I'm the older guy. I'm like five years older than these guys. And I just replaced their fucking homie who, like, just got kicked out of the band. So they're like all a little Ben out of shape. Yeah, weird, on it.

But it was really cool because we start, you know, I learn a lot from Ross and, you know, making any record or any experience you'd learn. But Ross specifically, like, what was cool is we're in this studio in New York, like a, you know, and we're doing pre-production. We go through a song and they got the song because I'd heard the demo before because we had a record label, me and Walter and Matt Pinkis and our friend Craig. And we joke about this because we totally fucked up. Like we passed on a lot of shit. We passed on Glassjaw from the demo because it just seemed a little. It was cool, but like not really our thing. Beirmental, a little too experiment.

There's like a... It doesn't really speak you when I think of you. I don't think of that. It wasn't where we were going as a label. We were like coming out of hardcore. We're like, let's do some bugged out shit. We tried to sign Interpol. That's awesome.

But we passed on Glassjaw. We passed on Taking Back Sunday. Yeah. We passed, I think on the movie life, we passed on grade. We passed on like so many fucking bands that were great that we probably... I think, yeah, you had great taste.

You know, we put out Eric Mingus was like Charles Mingus's son. We put out some weird shit. Six-on-seven, Aero-Type 11. Pry was Gavin's band. A lot of stuff. Anyway, we passed on glass. So you get hired to do this Glass-Trial record. Do they then discover like, oh, shit, it's Sammy from Judge and Youth of Today?

They knew that. But they were, again, just a little pissed that their buddy just got, you know, and they're thrown into this label with this producer. I mean, I think, you know, they were going with it, but they were also, like, 20 or something. And just, like, probably a little freaked out. We went through every song every day, pre-production. Did you do pre-production with Don Fury? No, no, no. That was a demo that they've recorded.

Okay, that was not with you. No. Okay. We did pre-production into a boom box. We work on one song. Ross would say, cool, like, end of the day, like, play it, record on this boom box. Next day we do another song. Next day we do another song.

The end of the 10 days or whatever, he would play, we sat around, listening to cassette. He's like, here's your record. We're going to go to California to record this at a real studio. But basically, this is fucking it. And that was so. Does Ross have this? Yeah. That's very cool.

Which was like, oh okay you're right like it's don't like don't expect that it's going to be something to like this is you guys playing in a room the songs you know and of course it developed a little bit in the studio but um that that was i thought i learned a lot about pre-production and just kind of like spending fucking eight hours on a song it's huge just getting ticking out does this feel like a hardcore band to you so no but you know again i had already so this was 99 so i was already doing my like loaded and 32 tribes and sieve it already happened and so and Dervana had happened, like so much other shit in the world. Like Siv used to, Deaf Tones used to open for Siv. I like seen Deftones come up.

So I was already like aware of how heavy music can also be like this. And where it was going to experiment with your drums. And it was a good fit too because they want, Ross was like, fucking bring it, bring it, bring it, fire. Like his whole thing with like, you know, I was like, they have all these parts

so I'm just like, cool. The kick drum? Yeah, the first track. He was like every, He's like every snare drum, I want you to put a kick drum under that. So I was like, what? Because it was like disco, like sonically. So now it's done.

Yep, on the snare. That uncomfortable overlap. Dude, the drums on that record are so unique. It's all single pedal. It's fucking, it's all real takes. It's not even that, I mean, it is unique in that way. But there is something about it that it's like, you can't comprehend. It's so urgent.

The hardcore energy is there. But moreover, you have a. presence there as a drummer. You're not just playing riffs. And your voice. A lot of it also, Ross would just, you know, you lose a little bit of sonic steadiness, which I think, you know, kind of...

But his whole thing was just fire. Like, you want to get chills when you listen to it, which, like, for the most part, like, I still get chills. It's awesome. It's a big record now, but I understand Roadrunner just kind of shit it out at the time. I guess it wasn't, like, an obvious single single on it.

You know, like Rai Rai Song, I think was the single we went with, but there really was no, like, song until the second record. I think that, which I didn't play on, but, like, that had, like, you know, Ape Dose Mill, I think, and songs that were... I'm a fan of the one that you... Yeah, thank you. I mean, it was really special for me.

Like, I, you know, long story short, like, I get paid to, like, be the drummer on this record. We go to California. Now we're in Malibu, you know, a Topanga Canyon, and the manager of the band's roommate walks in, and it's my wife, and she's, like, a model, and she was just visiting, and she and I hit it off

and she stayed for like two weeks and then she left and then she came back and like we're married now like 26 years later yeah so it's like really you know and it's like again like going down to the ocean jump in the ocean

go back up record for a little bit like Ross's thing was anytime the vibe got shitty yeah he was like all right stop he's like let's go to hike we just go fucking run through the woods come back and hit record was it crazy to see I mean he just produced the biggest new metal record of all time the year before which was corn

yeah corn and slip down I think it was after. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just getting opened, opening my eyes to a whole other scene a little bit, which Well, as it was exploding, so the world's eyes were opening. I mean, obviously, like I heard Corn and Limbiscan, I was just like, I hate these bands. Like, I was raised to hate these bands. But, you know, he had done some deaf tone shit.

Yep. And at the end, he was just like a vibe, dude. It was the exact opposite of how I had recorded. Like, he would, when Darrell was doing his vocals, he would invite us, you know, us in. Like, so there'd be a couple girls there, too. So, you know, singers kind of come alive. He was like this 19, 20-year-old kid, and he's like a couple models hanging out. He was like, holy shit.

But, like, he would ask Darrell like, okay, like, what's his song about? And he's just like, oh, you know, I was like in the hospital. I heard the song. And he's like, you just push him. Like, no. Like, what's the song about? And it was like, okay, I was in the hospital. I've got Crohn's disease.

I'm bleeding on my ass. My best friend is fucking, you know, my girlfriend. Yeah. And I'm in tears. And we're all just like in tears. And I'm getting chills right now. I'm talking about it. Yeah, it's awesome.

And we're like, all right, hit record. and you'd hear like, you know, major or something. Like, just like some fucking Ripper. Dude, the record's insane. Yeah. I'm kind of a new fan. No, it's really, I mean, I listen to it. I mean, I'm a fan of it too.

Like, I listen to it. I do want to say something. Ross Robinson, there's a connection here. We talked about Jeremy Bollm recently. He, I told him out we were going to do this. And he's like, I want to know. And who knows? He goes, there's some drums on that record that are similar

to this band. called Sons of Abraham. Does that ring a bill at all to you? Totally, yeah. And he just wants to, he was like asking, he was like, can you ask him? Well, Sons was pre-Glasjaw. So Beck from Glassjaw,

who's a sick drummer. Sure. Was in Sons of Abraham. That makes all the sense. Yeah, totally. So I don't know. I just carried over into the songs. Yeah, yeah.

There you go. So it was cool. I was, we were just about to make rival schools that started, and now I'm in Glassjaw, but I'm also in rival schools. and they kind of made me choose. And so I had to choose. So I chose my bros who were in rival school,

so I'd known forever. Well, I mean, Island Records, right? Island, but also just like, I just knew these dudes. And musically, you know, we had like some ballads, undercovers on, and we were just headed in a place. Both were really good. It was a tough decision.

That record is unbelievable. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, it was, um, so we, yeah, we did that. Like, I played like maybe five shows with Glassjaw, played with Candiria. We opened for Slipknot at Limel.

Let's fucking go. But a couple cool shows. And then, yeah, then I left. So how does that say way in the Olympics? Okay, so then I did that. I met Ross Robinson. Like, we ended up having a cool relationship. We'd hang out a lot, and he was awesome.

We went to snowboarding with the dude from Machine Head. Rob, Mr. Lucky, bass player guy. Oh, okay. Right? Just like, we just had some fun. It was cool. And my wife and his friends and the manager, this guy Rodney, we're all, like, just tight.

It was an interesting time. I was in New York, and there was a band called a static lullaby. And that was kind of like the most like session-y thing I... Sure. Or not, one of the few session-y things I did. So that was,

Hey, Lou G. Ordono, the producer. Come out to California, recording this record, and probably from the Glass Show record is how I got that game, I guess. But I went out to California, made the record, learn the songs.

It was really cool. I think their fans maybe didn't like the record for something that one. Do you know the record you're on, what it's called? I don't, but it's... I'm going to have to look that up.

It's pretty cool. It's musically, it's... I remember hearing that band in early thousands. I played my ass off and it's some really mathy shit. Yeah. It's pretty cool. How naturally does mathy type stuff come to you?

The fucking Rain Man in me kind of kicks in a little bit. I'm definitely not like super odd time. Like what? Like my sugar guy. That's all foot. Yeah. But like I can, when I list back to some songs, I'm like, oh, shit, all right? Glassjaw's got some shit.

Yeah. A lot of 6-8. My dad told me. You're doing a lot of triplets. just triplets and six eight and three and three can work with four once you figure that out and there's not a lot of like seven type shit in my world no no we get that yeah i do like seven when seven works basically so when i did the uh sad glibly record and then ross called me up and said hey man what do you think about the lb and i'm like what is the lb and

he's like limp biscuit he's like they're they want to make a heavy record and their drummer is not in a good place right now and what do you think do you want to just like meet the guys and try out. So I was like, sure. So I go to the studio and like next you know, like there's fucking Fred Duris and there's West Borland. Is he wearing the hat? Red Hat. I don't know if he was wearing, probably. West Borland had the contacts in though. But he was just, you know, I was like

Fred Duris. He's like, dude, he's like, you're in youth today. I was like, yeah, he's like, I saw Gigi Allen once. Fuck. And I was like, all right. What? That's so sick. So you're like, all right. The next thing I get the fucking gig and we go up to Marin County, Northern California and they rent this like

huge fucking mansion. They give me the master bedroom for some reason and we go to like Lucas Valley Road to George Lucas's his area some studio called the site where I think like Pearl Jam recorded one of their big records and there's some equipment rental was just like whatever drums you want I had two drum sets set up we would write on one drum set and then record on this other one and they had a chef and it was just like really fucking a whole different experience that I'd you know but really you know nice people me and West really hit it off and you know Fred, they were all like really

just nice people and we'd basically go in a room and write a fucking song a day. And the music was good. I mean, they're all rippers. Like, the bass band was really good. The drums on Earth's sick. Thank you. Yeah.

I listened to it a while ago because I remember looking, you know, did she do as an awkward kid? It was like, no fucking way. And then, you're like, that's crazy. It kind of like, it was headed in one spot which would have been, I think, really good.

It sort of got a little lost and ended up being like kind of a weird EP and there's like a ballad and a rap song. John Otto ended up coming. I think he retracted one of my songs. But it still, it is what it is. It's the unquestioned truth, part one. There was never part two.

And I was actually in the band for like a week. Well, that's cool. Then I got kicked out of the band. Did you play live shows with them? No. There was talk of it. And I was like, I remember going back to New York and I started to learn the fucking nookie.

You learned the nookie. You know, but I. That's sick. Every little boy's dream. That was it. I know. It was just, just something. bugged out fucking time.

That's your autobiography. For what the book is called? No, you know what the book is called? What? It's going to be called from biscuit to biscuit. Incredible. You got it. Available. I was doing a bad called Nightmare of View at the time.

Which was sort of like, it was a guy from the movie life. And it was kind of like New Wave, I guess you could say. And then I was doing Limp Bizkit for a second. So that was another weird sort of moment. That was probably 2005-ish. What a wild ride in your mind was. It was a really fun one. I want to know being on with rival schools for Island Records, because that's crazy big.

Yeah, I mean, well, Walter was signed to, I think, Polly Door. Like, he was? He was. He was, quicksand was. And then Quicksand broke up, but they, like, still owned his ass kind of deal. Like, we get, we get to say on your next project. And maybe they gave him some money for World's Fastest Car, which was like a project that he did, did some demos. They did a little bit of shows.

and then that turned into rival schools which basically they were just like, cool, you're on, which is now Island, which became Island Def Jam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this guy Rob Stevenson was like our A&R dude and he recommended this producer, this guy Luke Eben,

who'd like worked with Bon Jovi. And but yeah, we tracked drums at Chunking and we went to Bearsville, which was owned by like LeVon Helm from the band, upstate New York. And how is this experience? Which is where Sib actually had recorded too, coincidentally.

So you went to Chunking again? Yeah, no, no. Oh, yes, yes. How was that this time? Well, like I said, that was the new location where the A-Dets didn't lock up. We made United by Fate. It was ultimately up in Bearsville,

which was an interesting studio. It was haunted. Walter swears that some, like, lady sat on his bed in the middle of the night, like a ghost. It's always a lady sitting somewhere. And does making this record feel like a full-circle thing from Yitha today?

Doing something with Walter like this again? I mean, we were in G-B together. Yeah. For, like, 90 to 91, I guess. So, like... Oh, that's 10 years. years ago. Yeah, it was a while ago. 2001. And plus the whole 90s, because Walter wrote, you know, SIV, set your goals and, you know, produced that. So, like, he and I were already doing other projects.

That never ended. Yeah, like we just never did. We went, he, we kind of got into this phase, too, of like, oh, shit, like, you can, I think he realized, like, oh, I can write music for other people. Like, the SIF thing kind of sparked. So, like, this girl, Manette that we knew, we wanted to, like, Project Manette. Like, let's write a song for Minette. You know, let's write a song for our friend Holly, who's just really cool and had a cool vibe. And, you know, just, and, you know, I think he went, like, he produced Hot Water Music for some records, which was the label we had.

So, no, not really. I mean, rival schools just felt like, you know, we'd worked on it a lot. So it was originally called Rival Schools United by Fate. Like one band, yeah. Yeah. But then it was taken from a video game, and so our lawyer was like, you can't do that. So we changed its rival schools. Album was going to United by Fate.

But we played a few shows, experimented a lot, wrote a lot of songs, which never came out. A lot of, like, just B sides. And so when it came time for United by Fate, you know, it was already, like, probably, two years of developing it and you know then that record came out this is another record you in that same interview put in your top three personal you know my fate it's awesome yeah it's good it's like really you know we played good i think the songs are really good everything that's produced well you know really proud of it it's pro i would let like if like some non hardcore person was just like oh you play music like let's hear it i'd be like all right here's um so down on or you know something

that's cool do you run the rival schools instagram i do What sets this apart to you to, from everything else you've done? What sets? This record apart, United States? Yeah. I mean, there was just, yeah, musically, like, you know, undercovers on a ballad. Like, we didn't really have that. Just grooves, like, good things is just, like, a pocket for, like, a long time.

It was just more musical dynamics, you know, Ian with all these effects and stuff. And we also, like, had success in the UK, which was kind of cool. It was like this whole other world. When I think about playing music all these years, it works for me because it keeps changing. It's rooted in friendship and hardcore, always, but it just keeps fucking changing. So when rival schools came out,

we had a song, Used for Glue and Good Things, both charted in the UK. And so now we're playing Redding and Leeds and Glastonbury. And we're doing like other shit and we're doing like press in the UK and we're like on BBC One, radio stuff and like so it was just different you know we we kind of had like a little bit a little taste of just like a little next level shit in the UK like where the hotel was just

nicer there was like a car for us sometimes like it just felt different and uh but then also like yeah you go back i'm in our first tour we did in the u.s we took out Thursday so you see the whole scene kind of changing with bands like um yeah like Thursday and you know all different kinds of bands how our music and stuff and so we were just it was all we were all kind of changing together I guess the emo type thing. Pretty awesome. I was just for the record. I'm pretty sure I put undercovers on a mixtape with my now wife.

There's what I'm talking about. I'm going to make it. Lovers music. This came out during a time when labels would put out like split sampler CDs with bands. So you technically did a split with Hoobesank. Yes. Did you have any say in this decision?

Not proud of that one. But yes, I know. We got thrown into the hoobes a lot. We had, like, dinners with those dudes in weird places. The hoops? Yeah. You know, just major label shit. Again, you just learn.

Like, you learn. The school and distinct. I mean, we have managers and stuff, but I don't know if, like, I mean, not that. They were nice people. Nothing bad about it. But, you know, you. But the hoop is done. When you get signed to a label, especially a major label, like, you get thrown into saliva.

Was like another band, right? Same A and R guy. Yeah. But just like, so. My wife loves that, man. You're just like, fine, you know, you're just American hi-fi, cool dudes. But you just, you get aligned with like, I mean, when Siv was on Lava Atlantic, it was us, Sugar Ray, Matchbox 20, Kid Rock.

Perfect. You know, we ended up having this like alliance with fucking those bands in a weird way. Like, I went out with Kid Rock one night. It was pretty funny. It was like Kid Rocks, because we were on Lava Atlantic. And my friend Todd James, who did the Set Your Goals, our album packaging. He was like, yo. I know this dude Kid Rock, because D. Nice was producing it,

and I'm going to go to this record release party if you want to go. So I was like, sure, we'll go. I was on the label. We went. And then we ended up at this holiday in, like, Times Square. And it's Kid Rock, his band, you know, the little guy, what was Joe C, RIP, and me, my friend Todd, who's white, and D. Nice, black dude. So it's like D. Nice and like these like six white dudes.

And, like, we're sitting there at this holiday, Howard Johnson, and the waitress comes up. She had, like, a southern accent for some reason. It was Times Square. But she's like, wait, she's like, you're on a band? We're like, yeah. And she's like, let me guess. Y'all are hooting the blowfish, right? Oh, my God.

Like, no? That's fucked. Yeah. Wow. Unbelievable. But, yeah, who was staying bands like that? Tell me about the youth crew guys all going to Knicks games together in the 90s. I don't think that happened so much.

I heard somebody had season tickets. My friend Matt from Judge had season tickets, but that kind of happened later, more like when we were doing some records, which I guess was what, like, yeah, like late 90s or early 2000s. If he wasn't going, I was like, I'll go. I'll go. He'd take me sometimes. Every once in a while, like in the major label land, you kind of get a little, like there was this one that I knew that would actually take me to Nick's games. And one time she took me to a Yankee game as a World Series and they were playing Boston and they fucking won at the game I was at. It was like game six or something.

You're lucky. Yeah. That was special. And how do you feel about this next win that just happened? It's amazing. I'm wearing the shirt. I had all the shirts I could have wore, I got this one. And it's, but as a lifelong Knicks fan who's just been with him all these years, I was on fucking tour in Europe in June and missed the entire finals.

Walter was there with me, Charlie from Judge and Grobiscan said was there with us. And like, we all missed it. Could not find a game. What do you think about the Danhausen stuff? Were you tapped in on that at all? What is that? The wrestler Danhausen who uncursed the Knicks live on SportsCenter. He's a friend of the show, a good friend of ours.

Really? He went on Stephen A's show and uncursed them, and then they started winning. So honestly, the Knicks... They've done, like, collabs with him. Are you guys into wrestling? Yeah. Big time. He's a little more than me.

Yeah, big time. But I'm around. The singer of God's hate is a pro wrestling. I was really old. I'm not like... I was very old school. I was into like Bob Backlin era. Sure, of course.

You know? The champ, the OG champ. Yeah, I had the magazines and stuff. Sure. Like real, that's a real old school. Yeah, true ass kicker Bob Backl. British Bulldogs. You know, speaking of wrestling and beating people up and shit, did you ever spin kick?

No. No. Like my thing was the stage dive where you kind of run, put your hands down, maybe on a monitor or on some human. He's go over and then you're just there and he just kind of like there. I'm in. And like you were small enough where people were like, ah, all right. Sam was here.

That was my move. Okay. That's a good move. I got a black eye at a young age of the pyramid in the pit and I think that kind of just taught me to just like, you know what? Have you ever think about spankaking? R rethink your moves. You don't have to.

Yeah. Do you remember the first time you've heard of this. I don't know how these kids do it honestly. Like physically I don't think I could do that type of dance. You look great. I know you can spin cake. You just haven't tried it yet. I've never tried it.

Send us a video. Here it is. I think the skank is just really cool. It's the greatest move. I think just skanking, like dancing. If you can skank well, you've got a future. You've got your whole life ahead of you. You have played everything from youth crew to metallic hardcore to post-hark chord

or major label alternative rock. What changes in your drumming when the music around you changes? Is it just natural adaptation? I mean, I guess like, you know, You know, you want to play, you're playing music. You want to play musical. So my dad always like, and he's a jazz dude, but he was just like, look, you know, you could walk into a jazz club. See, I could walk into a jazz club in the middle of a drum solo.

And a good drummer, I would know what song they're playing, you know, because you're not just banging on the drums, you're playing a song. Yeah. And so, I mean, obviously, it's jazz, hardcore, is different. But I try and play musical. And then, oh, I guess I've learned in my older age to just do the song justice, really. Like, what is going to be best for the song? you know and then trying to add some little flare and moments here and there musical moments that might become part of the song like holy shit this is you know the

bare minimum is do the song justice and then be musical add your signature yeah or you can hear it like sometimes like a riff is just I mean maybe it took a complex beat like good things was like Walter had this riff and then I had this kind of beat that just was a little probably not what he was imagining and it just sort of like ended up being you know this kind of the song was still the song you know I could But I, me, I don't know if this answer is a question, but I just try and, yeah, like, elevate the song as much as possible. A lot of guys like, you know, write,

sometimes people write on acoustic and it's, like, very linear, and it's a great song, but, like, I'll try and bring some dynamics to it. The riff can stay the same, and a little symbol variation can change the entire song. Yeah. I love it. Who influenced you most that people might not expect? Stuart Copeland was, like, kind of my dude. I'm like Stuart Copeland guy for sure

because it's like just the way you kind of bring in like reggae and rock and the snap and playing on top of the beat I'm big into that like pushing top of the beat that's his thing probably him Matt Cameron right you start on the zero instead of one playing on top of the beat for someone that doesn't know what that means I had a cool music teacher and went to the new school that

basically explained it whereas like you know like if if there was like a circle like the moon or whatever and you can play right on top of that moon like full moon whatever like that's your sitting on the beat. Or you could play on the back half of that. The moon is like the quarter note. You can play on the back half of that.

Or you can play on the front half of that. And my thing is the front half of that. I mean, not always. You want to be able to adapt. But you're aware of it. But I'm going to push. You know, I'm sitting. My seat's been getting higher as I get older.

It's really cool to see. And it's just, you know, it's like, you know, like Mackey. You can take it. He's just standing up. He's basically, dude. You know, push it. Especially with hardcore. I fucking push it.

All the drummers start standing after a string. I love sitting. I've been sitting high. Dude. I'm a long-legged son of the bitch, though. What is the most technically difficult song you've ever recorded? Choose Your Adventure by Rival Schools. Ah, da-da-na-na-na-na-na-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-ma-ba-da.

Because of like memorization? Just the fucking, we all couldn't find the one. It was like Ian wrote the riff and it was just like, where does this fucking thing start? One, two. And then you got to change. Yeah. You say, and then, Judge? No, just then we had to change the chorus.

That was tricky. And the Siv songs are just like they're tiring in a different way. Pocket, pocket, pocket. Those are pocket songs for sure. Yeah. Got to push. Can't let it get lazy. I mean, obviously this is your answer.

But I feel like when I hear the Glassjaw stuff, I'm like, this is insane. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like Siberian kiss. Dude. Yeah. Dude. Yeah. You're working.

Yeah. Or motel. Dude, there's a lot of work there. Yeah. The weird shit. What? Yeah, definitely. What recording do you think singular recording best represents you as a drummer?

Oh. There's a record. Rival School has this record called Found, which were like these high-end demos that, like, the label gave us. And we went and recorded on tape and stuff. We recorded some stuff at Chris Trainor's house that I just really love it, man. I always, Indisposable Heroes, I think is the first song in that.

That just sounds really good. It's like pocket. It's got some of my kind of reggae shit that I pull from with hardcore. And so some songs of that record might be, what was it, favorite or just represents me? Most represents you.

Like that is fucking, that is Sam. It's on the top. This is Sam basically. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot. So I don't know. Like, rival school stuff you could hear

that we're hard I feel like you can feel that we're hardcore dudes but it's also just musically a little bit like ring it out or travel by telephone or something Yeah Ring it out Yeah

That song's awesome Yeah it's a ripper Records Hall Who is and I think I know your answer Who is the best songwriter You ever worked with You know Walter's like a real damn good one Answer

I have an appreciation for Ray and Purcell too I mean these motherfuckers I want to talk to them more about how they wrote prolific you know like more than a package or like even the songs of mantra like metamorphosis just lots of songs man yeah metamorphosis i want to add to this question uh because uh Greg felchetto front of the show says uh he wanted to ask what's who is your favorite to

write with ooh i mean well i think walter like he and i feel like uh i get excited when he's like Like I got an idea. You know, it's like, I just get like it just, he had the possibilities are endless. Who knows where it's going to go? I bet him five bucks. It was Walter, brother. Yeah. Just so you know.

Yeah. Yeah. So I got five bucks. Yeah. We just, you know, we've done it a lot. And I know he's really capable of writing some really good shit. And, yeah, we're like, you know, he like many, you know, you get him with Sergio and Tom and it creates one thing or him creates another thing.

He's got, you know, all these different concoctions. But with me and him. Magic. I feel like it, you know, you know. usually hits something, something nice. He's magical. His rhythm is really good. So his melody is good.

He has a full understanding of music. But he doesn't play drums. His rhythm is fucking tight. He's got, he can be funky. He's, you know, which is cool. So it's like, yeah, you understand melody. And you understand chord progressions and this and that. You hear it in quicksand and all the rhythms are weird too.

Yeah. Like he's doing something while something's doing something else. It's awesome. He's awesome. Which period of your life? or career do you feel most nostalgic for? I mean, Youth Today, yeah, Youth Today, yeah, Youth Today was the most, like, again, Ray in his prime. I mean, he's in his prime, who knows what his prime is, but Ray back then was just such a, like,

I'll just go anywhere you say, dude, like, yeah, I'm with you. I'm going to fucking. That's awesome. I love that. Stay and fight. Whatever we're doing, like, I'm fucking rolling with you, you know. It was just that special. Like, the songs were really good, his energy, his performance, and just the climate of the

at the time. It was still just, you know, being young, but also it wasn't refined. There was no internet. There's no cell phones. There's no that. You're just fucking, I'm in Europe in a van for two and a half months. I'm 17 and I'm supposed to be in school. Yeah. You know. And your youth crew. And I'm fucking youth crew. A fucking man. To this day. And I get to play, make a change. Yeah. You really do. Yeah. Yeah. What is a song you never want to play again? I don't want to make anyone upset. No. Well, not because. We're trying to come from. I'm not. I Because you don't like the song, but because of the drumming. We can say that about our own show all the time.

It's just like some, I don't know what it is about the SIV set. Sometimes there's songs where it's just like choices made or something where it's just like very like linear maybe. And it's just like you just have to just keep at it. I'm trying to think of that. I know there's a better one, but yeah. Siv. They're all really fun.

Not Siv as a band, but they're just like a song. Like the set list. Demanding. It's not a lot of dynamics. It's like. You did say that was one of the more challenging ones. to play in general, like playing with Siv. Some of the songs are hard.

It's not a lot of dynamics, I guess. The thing about hardcore songs, it's just like a burst of energy. And then you get to fucking mosh out. Yeah, yeah. You know, whereas like, Siv has it with Etiubrute and, you know, trust and certain songs. But there's a lot, you know, some of the more like Mid Temple songs are you're just, you know, committing to like this longer. Yeah, it makes sense. Is there a hardcore band you wish you'd gotten to play for?

Seven seconds is a cool dream come true to be able to play with them. That was fun. I wish I played drums for, I guess Warzone. Fuck, right? I mean, they were so good. I was such a huge fan. Yeah. Born to expire.

Mm? Leeway? I mean, you mentioned Leeway a few times. Yeah, Leeway. Those are fun drums, too. That's what I was thinking as soon as you mentioned that. Yeah. It's a fun drum record.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a little later. you're a grown boy by the time desperate measures I kind of missed desperate measures to be honest I was all in on born to expire but yeah maybe what year was that you think 91 or 90? Yeah it's probably starting to be born to expire?

No desperate measures yeah I got into it later and definitely appreciate it yeah It's an opus. It's a big drum record too Yeah big time And lastly yeah what's your question? Let me get I don't know Sammy Siegler Yeah could you tell us your top four hardcore records of all time Okay

Top four hardcore records of all time. I'm going to go with Warzone. Don't forget the struggle. Don't forget the streets. Preach. It's an amazing record. You got a skit in there. You got an apocalypse now sample.

Banger after banger after banger. Intro bust. Just gets me psyched. Like, I'll listen to it today. We'll just do it after this. I'll put it on, dude. Let's spit. Love that record.

The second record is going to be leeway born to expire. Okay? Just played the shit out of it. I love how, and nobody, I don't think, has ever tried to do this, but like how quiet it comes in, you know, and you get tricked. You're talking about like that from the first track. Do, do, do, do, do. There is a. Bam, bam, bam.

Musical. It's musical. I mean, someone had that idea as genius, you know. It's a genius. Are you one of the people that has the, like, leaked, traded cassette two years early? I'm not hip to that demo, unfortunately. I haven't heard that shit. Bernie Gets used to live across street from me.

and they've got that song about Bernie Gets, which is what, The Enforcer, I think that's a song. Banger. Banger. Okay, third record, I'm going to have to say Breakdown the Wall's Youth Today. That's so cool. Yeah, I mean, you know, this was like pre-me being in the band.

Yeah, of course. But when I'm a fan, Youth Day Break Down the Walls. Like, Ray, rah, rah, rah. One of a kind. Honesty. Shout It is probably my favorite song on that record. I like those songs. Like, from a songwriting perspective, like Free at Last,

shout it. Those are weird. Yeah. And as a drummer you're hearing. I mean, that's... Oh, yeah. And Drew is locked the fuck in. It's super tight, man.

And then two kind of like, I guess demos, which don't count, right? I mean, I would say demos count. You could do anything. Can I give two honorable... You can. Give me your honorable cassettes. Cassettes that don't... Are not going to make my four albums because they're really technical cassettes.

Yeah. One is the Chromegg's demo. Yeah, sick. It's fucking bananas. Yeah. I met Doug... in like fifth or sixth grade on the street and I bought it for like three dollars and one home. Do you still have it? I might actually. Fuck, that's cool. And then the other cassette is

the Roar cassette. Yes, amen. That's, I mean, that's, that's an album. That's an album. Okay. All right. Do you, well, you don't have to. What are you going to say for your number four? Because fuck, that record's good. Yeah. I'm going to go, I'm going to go seven seconds, walk together, rock together. That's hardcore. You know, not the crew. I kind of skipped, I got walked together first for some reason. And I just was all in. I mean, obviously, See 99 Red Balloons was like, oh yeah, I fucking love this. It's cool. But not just in my head, it's my heart. Like, if I don't have any tattoos, I think if I were to get one, it could be something with that whole thing. You got zero? I'm thinking right here. What do you think? Not just in my head. I just sit in my head, it's to my heart. I'll call sieve if you could do it. So you've played for half of your top four hardcore records well.

Right. That's crazy. I tried to get, I tried to get. You did good. Thank you. Yeah, dude. A life that's full. Yeah.

That's awesome. I tried to get Kevin to play strength and he won't. He's like, yeah, we just don't play that one, man. I'm like, I. Yeah, but I do. Yeah, he's like, we could never really get it with the story. I was like, I could get it. I could do it.

You just start, you just count in and then start playing. You know what I like about watching you play drums is your frustration with monitors. Oh, I'm not so proud. of that. I'm not so proud of it. Because I'll be there. You'll look at me and be like, yeah.

What is this? I mean, look, I'm not so proud of that. But there is an element of like, I traveled this whatever, five, six hours, packed up my drums, unpacked my drums, was here for the sound shake, the thing, we're fucking here.

I'm doing my part. Everyone's got to do their part. And they got one job. And your part is to do the monitors, dude. Yeah. We checked it. It was there. It was there.

You know what happened? On the sound check, it was perfect. And it's nothing personal, but it's just when you're playing, It can get frustrating sometimes. I'm with you. I'm getting better in my older age. I'm trying to just, if something's fucked up.

Especially as the drummer, it's like, we're leading the songs. Well, you're also, you're sort of trapped. Like, you can't, like, your bass player, you walk away from your monitor. But if you play, like, I think the other night was seven seconds, like, it was just all fucking guitar so loud. And I just, like, the first four or five songs are just segues. Yeah. And I'm like, I can't, I'm like, turning a guitar down.

It's like, huh? And there's no way to signal that. Like, you know, and like you can't. If they just see. Yeah, and like all you're hearing is just guitar blasting and shit, whatever. I should do a better job. No. How?

No, the signal is. You have the monitors. They're dialed into what you asked. And then the set starts and it's a whole different machine. It's rough. Wait, being playing and you go. You know what I'm saying? And then somebody like undoes your high hat because of that and you're like, no.

No, look, it's hard. I play the shelter play. I had Union Square Park the other day, and my friend provided backline, and, you know, he's not a drummer, and it happens all the time, but it's like, all right, it's just equipment on a certain level, you know? Like, I realize now that, like, my seat's got to

be really fucking sturdy, because I'm sitting up high, and this seat, the first song, just goes, boom, and claps. Now I'm sitting down. Set's over. You just had to stop. Yeah, you can't keep, can't finish the song, you know. Dude, I just got this, I was telling him about it, I just got this Yamaha snare stance.

You wouldn't believe this. Is it? It's unbelievable. Okay, good. Let me tell you, snare stand. It's insane, this thing. First of all, you undo this little thing.

You take it apart and half you can put it in your backpack. Two hats. Imagine that. That's very nice. Yeah. The feet have a little button that pushes a spike out. Okay. It'll never move again.

You see that on high hat stand sometimes? Can you make it flat? Yes. Because you know how... It's a rolling ball. It's no... There's no pull where you have to go... Or like you can either commit to this or commit to this

or commits that. I don't want this. Yet it's never exactly. I don't want it. But Yamaha, this is unsponsored, has solved this problem with the fucking ball. Yeah, because the DW ones, you got to do the fucking, the nice DW ones.

It's never flat. Do you guys have any thoughts on sound people that start micing your drums up before you set up? Yes. It's like, bro, this scenario is a mile away from me. The China is behind the base cap. Okay, so this is what happens. You get the sticks.

once you put the sticks down and you get on there like and you're like dude I can't. Or you have to hit it to know that it's going to work there and they're like I think they want to mic it up and take a quick smoke break or something because they only get a little I get that smoke on your own fucking joke. Okay so how about this though too? Right. To add to this when you

are you got all your stuff ready and they've miked it up whatever you sit down and they're like kick and I'm like fuck I haven't even like moved anything. Yeah. Or dude and I'm doing it while I'm like kicking. This is serious. guitar players can noodle all day. Yeah. We hit one fucking thing and they're like,

shh. Oh yeah. Dude. You don't want me to be comfortable? You want your set to be ruined? Yeah. Or how about this? When they're micing

and they're in front of the bass drum and you just want to be like, fuck you, dude. I've been telling sound people to, hey, no gates, please. I don't want my drums gated because I play with dynamics. Yeah.

So when you play quiet, it doesn't come out. You don't mean? It's good. And the guys in my band make fun of me when I say that. They don't get it. They're not you.

They didn't play on. bringing it down. Amen. Or if I asked for the front of house to be muted so I could just hear what the wedge sounds like. That's sick. Yeah. You make fun of me. Make fun of you? What do you get in the van? You'd be like, oh, wedge guy over here. What the fuck you, dude?

No, that's, you deserve it, dude. They want you to be happy or not? They do. Ultimately, they do. They love me. That's what matters, dude. Yeah. Let the man get rid of his gear. I saw you play the floor show perfectly, and you did the thing over here. I thought you were just doing it for fun, but I remember that you do that all the time.

What about Sammy Paloza? Did you go to that one? Four bands in two nights, 1720. Good for you, man. That was fun. Yeah, I was there. I realized there, everyone was like, oh, god, how'd you do it today?

It was like, the hardest part is fucking bringing the drums, setting them up, breaking them down, doing the sound check. Once they were set up, night number two, just fucking walk in and play two sets. It's fine. Yeah. It's the whole thing. I've been playing drums for 25 years.

Yeah. I still feel like I set them up wrong every time. They're wrong every time. There's something I do where I'm like, I've done this no less than a thousand times and it feels wrong. I get to choose how these are set up and I don't like it.

I used to mark everything and if they weren't perfect I'd get so in my head on it and I would be like now I'd just go I'm sure it's fine. Yeah, I stopped marking them too because it never worked out.

It like didn't theory tape the rug, everything perfect and it just never would always match up then I'd fucking my OCD whatever would freak out. When you do the second rack, where do you comfortably put your ride? Because I've been fighting with this thing

for 20 years. ride? Yeah. Second, I'm sorry. So second rack meaning like one, two. And then you're putting a ride to your right, usually. So a stair rack rack, my ride is, my ride is to the left of my head. Why am I asking you this? Yeah, that makes sense. You're your open hand. Oh, yeah. I need to do that. He does what Taylor does. Why, because you keep it over there? I'm an open hand of left. I guess keep it over, keep it on above your floor time. Because I don't ever have to do

this. Yeah. Right. I'm always, I can, I'm ambidextrous where I can be just on your left. Well, you have the little, you have some shit going on your left. I got a lot of shit. That's the thing is. I do left China and left splash and middle I kind of would do that too back in judge this. It was a little bit heavy on my left because I had the ride and the China up there. The Cohit guy does the same thing. Yeah.

Everything is here. Back from Glass Show, he used to always, he's like, how come you don't have a floor tum on your left? It'd be cool. That's crazy. You start to do some shit. You're like, I'll do it out. Dude, 18 on the left?

That'd be sick. He's in, yeah, he's a good drummer. He's into that. He's got some kind of thing that emulates a bass drum on his floor time. That's sick. So it's a lot of just single kick, but like, I can double get the back.

Dude, I bet if we switch to lefty drums, we would dominate. Oh, actually switch to lefty drums. I don't think I've ever once played on a lefty kit. I think we would do it really well. The difficulty would be the foot, but I lead with my left foot. Oh, you're fucked.

You're insane for that one. Like all double kick, I start with the left. Yeah. I'm kind of into, I'm so used to this. Let's give it a shot. We'll set one up here and here it is. It'll be kiss, whatever. song you want. That, this is, what a great

conversation this was. Thank you all so much for being here. Sammy, thank you so much for joining us. What a pleasure. Thanks, you. At times. Thank you guys. Got it. You to today, side by side, judge, project X, sieve, rival schools, glass jaw, limp biscuit, and the list goes on.

Seven seconds. Sammy, truly one of the most prolific, one of the greatest to ever do it. We are grateful to have had this conversation today. Thank you guys. Thanks to Trust Records for having us. This place is awesome. Maybe we'll We'll be back. Maybe we got something else planned. We'll see. Any final words for the audience? Oh man. Thanks for having me. Good times. Better words than that. I don't know.

You got so. No, you did perfect. That was good. Thank you all. Hell yeah. Bye.