HealthyGamerGG - Am I a Burden to my Friends?

Episode Date: August 27, 2022

Today Dr. K talks about friendships, transactional friendships, social contracts, problem solving, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What I find is that people are absolutely Herkulean with the amount of effort and energy that they put in. But if there's something like autism or trauma or depression or something like that in the way, you're driving a car with a flat tire, if that kind of makes sense. Hello. Hello. How do I think that the icon bigger? Like my face? You can click on my face. Yeah.

It was fine. Okay. Yeah. Can I also turn on my camera? You absolutely can. We're not going to share it with stream today because that wasn't the plan. Unless you really want to, which, well, yeah, let's just, let's just do, I mean, you can turn on your camera. I'm going to see it, but we're not, you know, privacy and all that.

Yeah, cool. Hello. Okay. Oh, my God. It's so much better with Cam. Yeah. What do you go by? Fortunate souls on Twitch, I have no idea.

Yeah. Yeah, my name's Clara. Okay, nice to meet you, Clara. How are your friendships going? I think at the moment that they're going really good. Awesome. I don't know. Can you tell us a little bit about how that happened?

No, I mean, really, for me, I think it's come down to finding the right people, I guess. How do you find the right people? And remaining open despite rejection. Remaining open despite rejection. That sounds like it's painful advice to follow. I'm sorry. No, no. I mean, but that's, you know, if that's what it is, that's what it is.

Like life ain't, life ain't easy sometimes. Yeah. Can, is that, are you comfortable talking about that? Or you wanted to talk about something else or what? I mean, I'm actually okay with talking about whatever, but the original topic that I wanted to talk about was also about like transactional relationships or transactional friendships. Can you tell us about that? Because that I think is really important.

Well, it's because, okay, maybe I will give a little bit of background. I guess it was like eight months ago at this point. Eight months ago, I had like a really big falling out with one of my longest friends that I had from high school. Okay. And I still don't entirely know why. Okay. Because there were a lot of factors to it. But one of the things that she was very upset about was that she felt that the relationship was one-sided.

and in the respect that she was supporting me, but for whatever reason, she didn't feel like I was supporting her. I think it was really that she was having a little bit of a, you know, like a freak out and some, like, abandonment wounds. Okay. And I didn't know how to handle the situation because... It's interesting, because,

Other people can't see your face, but they can definitely hear your sighs, like the, ugh. Yeah. Because, I don't know, because I can't help but laugh sometimes because, I thought it was such a mess. Tell us about it. I mean, if you're comfortable, right? And we also have to acknowledge that this is your perspective, right? So there may be another perspective and maybe your.

a raging narcissist who's completely unempathic with your friends. The thing. Right? So we have to acknowledge that sometimes when we hear stories like this, it makes the other person seem really unreasonable, but maybe you are the unreasonable one. So let's hear. I mean, you feel comfortable talking about it? Because I think this is really common where we have long-term friendships and there's people feel like there's a needs mismatch. And so how do we navigate that?

Yeah, it's like one question that I had in my mind afterwards was if this was how she really felt about me, then I wish she ever friends with me in the first place. I feel like I've always been this kind of person. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit more about the situation? Do you feel comfortable sharing that or do you think it would be like violating your friend's privacy? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about.

And I can give some details. Sure. A whole saga. Sometime around like two years ago, I started having, like, a really hard time. Like, my mental health deteriorated so much, and I think that a lot of it had to do with, like, trauma that I never processed. but I didn't realize that that's what it was. Okay. So I went down the internet rabbit hole of self-diagnosis.

And for a year, I thought that I was autistic. I don't know. I say obviously, but I do feel like in the end I'm not actually. Okay. I was having conversations with my high school friend about this and he started thinking that she was autistic too and we really bonded over that for a period of time

at the time I really did feel like mutually supportive relationship Okay. Then when I started to get better, as I was like, I guess using a lot of your content, a lot about processing trauma. Uh-oh. Got better. Yeah, I got better. And one day I told her that I didn't think I was autistic anymore and I told her the reasons.

And she sent me a couple of paragraphs of. a lot of angrieness. What was your perception about? What was she angry about? I don't know. I would like to erase it from my mind. She was angry about me coming across as narcissistic, essentially. How so? Oh, again, it was a lot of things.

Okay. Because, like, yeah, I guess I let my ego out. Okay. I don't know. Yeah. I shouldn't be so kind to myself. I shouldn't be so self-compassionate and say my perspective. Well, so hold on a second. So how did you respond to those texts? Did I respond? Well, it was very confusing because she said, I understand if you're angry about this, we don't have to talk about this now. But it seemed like she really wanted to talk about it now because it was, no, it seemed urgent. So I tried to talk to her. about it and like tell her more about my perspective.

It only made it worse. And throughout, through the course of the conversation, I don't know, she said things like, you are the one who wants us to be the same. And like if I tried to compliment her, I tried to compliment her once, where I said like, oh, you're one of the few people who I felt has ever been able to understand me. she took that negatively

I'm sorry how so it was just another like all the I statements you know how when they tell you to use eye statements when you talk about your feelings yeah

but then if you use the word I too much it makes you seem like you're very self-absorbed yeah that's what concerns me about when they tell you to do something Clara the way that you're talking And right now makes me feel this and this and this and I feel this and I feel this and I feel this and I feel this, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's kind of interesting. Okay. So I can see how that is challenging. Let me ask you, is this something that has happened with other people? Yes. Yes? Okay.

And so help me understand your perception of that. You know, it was a long time ago. Again, I still don't understand. Okay. But it sounds like you have, so it doesn't sound, so this is like a one-off in terms of recently, and it sounds like you've made new friends and that this is not, would you say this is a common occurrence for you or less so? Not a common occurrence. Okay.

I don't know. Okay. So it's not. I would like to. Yeah? Some of my, some of the friends that I have now, I mean, they say I've just been unlucky. I don't know. What do you think about that?

I am kind of looking for answers. I am looking for answers like, is it really me? Is there really something in me that is making other people react this way? Or has it just been lucky? Yeah. So I think chances are, so generally speaking, when we look at things like this, chances are it's both. right? So let's just like take a 5,000 foot view. Human beings tend to have particular patterns.

And those particular patterns are going to evoke particular responses. And so do you have a contribution to this? I think yes. Does that mean it's your fault? I wouldn't quite go that far because sometimes we think that a contribution equals fault. Right? So, like, you know, let's say, I'll give you just kind of an example where, like, let's say that, like, I'm very, very giving with my money. And if friends need money, if they're, like, on hard times, I'm very, very generous.

And over time, that may attract a particular kind of friend, may muddy a particular kind of relationship. And what I sort of find myself in the situation where the more generous I am, the more lopsided the relationship becomes, and the more. more frustrated my friends feel with me. And then I get really confused by that because it's like I'm being really generous, like why are you being frustrated with me? Does that make sense to you at all? We're not saying that this is you, by the way, but does that kind of compute how that could happen?

And what do you understand from that situation? The hypothetical one. Actually, can you repeat that? I really kind of spaced out. It's totally fine. It was actually like not the best situation. But let's say I'm financially generous with my friends. And over time, you know, like I get into weird situations where I think like it's kind of weird because the more generous I am, like the worst my relationships become.

And people should respond by like being generous back to me, but that doesn't seem to happen. Does that make sense to you? Like that how that could happen? Yeah. And help me understand how that makes sense to you. Well, because people do things for. another person, they actually personally understand this perspective, but at least I've able to extrapolate that when people do things for other people, they form like an unspoken social contract

in their heads. If I do something for this person, then they're going to pay me back in the same way. Well said. right so so so it's it's not so the simplified version of this is oh people you're just going to attract people who use you for your money and even if you're if you're that person who's generous that's what you're going to start to think everyone out there is mean everyone out there is trying to take advantage of me but there may be like deeper layers to that which is that when I'm generous is it truly something that's given with no expectation or

Is there a hidden expectation in my mind that when they don't pay me back, I'm like, oh, here's 500 bucks. I don't know. It's going to take me while to pay you back. Oh, no, no, no, you never have to pay me back. No, no, no. Like, don't worry about it. Like, we're friends. Like, what's a little bit of money between friends?

They're like, okay, fine. If you say so, I never have to pay you back. Where's my money? You never paid me back. The person who says, I'm the person who takes people's word for it. Like, I'm the person who's like, okay, then I don't have to pay you back. And then they get mad at me and I'm so confused and I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, right?

Okay. So maybe it's a hypothetical example, but seems like it's resonating. So, and this is where like- Well, I've never done that. Yeah. But who, you know, who's at fault here? Right. And that's what's really important here is that we tend to, when we think about interpersonal

relationships, we think like I'm at fault or the other person is at fault. Whereas what I, what I'd love it, if you could kind of reconceptualize a little bit is that, is this your fault? Is this you or is it your friend? It's neither. It's an intersectional result, right? And that's what I really, God, I wish I could have somehow did that to her. But I think she was kind of wrapped up in the expectation.

And I don't know. Yeah, so I'd be careful about that because if you're sort of saying like, explain that to her, that could be what turns people off. Because if you're like, oh, like, you know, so. Yeah. Because anyway, so let me take a step back. So here's a couple of things that I would kind of think about, okay? Let's just think in general.

So let's say that you've got a friend. Things are kind of weird. Like, y'all are getting along really well. You connect over something. And by the way, connecting over mental health conditions is like one of the deepest forms of connection that you can have with another human being. I've seen it so much, especially at places like rehabs where, like, you know, addiction and sobriety really brings people together. So much romance on inpatient psychiatric units. So it's a very actually powerful bond, right?

Because like conditions relating to mental health are very, very isolating. And when you find someone who like connects with you on that level, it can form a very strong bond. I think that the thing that you kind of noticed, which I think is an excellent observation, is when your friend came at you with this wall of text that you were not like prepared for, your response was to try to explain yourself further and what a effect did that have? Terrible. Yep. Right. You know, I didn't want to explain myself further. You didn't want to? Other people want to. I don't, I don't, whatever. Yeah. So, so that's where if I can make a recommendation, anytime you have a conflict with a friend, instead of trying to explain yourself

further, try to understand them better. What do you think about that? What that means? So yeah, so let's like talk through that, right? So a couple of things. So one thing is that some of this stuff could just be like the mother of all projections, right? Where it's like, you wanted us to be the same. Maybe like she wants you to be the same. Like, you know, so sometimes like there's that kind of thing. We don't know.

So, you know, but I think that's the kind of thing where if someone comes at you with something that's very, very confusing, if it's an attack, you're going to feel defensive. if you feel defensive, you're going to want to explain. And the more that you explain, the less heard the other person is going to feel. Does that make sense? Sure. So you're saying sure. So I get the sense you're not really buying what I'm selling.

So what's your hesitation? Oh, I just... Sorry, I feel kind of hopeless often about... are like able to have conversations with people when there's like a problem what makes you feel hopeless about having conversations around problems they've never been able to solve a problem a friend if i can't think of a single time when i ever succeeded okay so i mean so then it makes a lot of sense that you would feel hopeless and you're skeptical. I'm very skeptical, sorry.

That's fine. Are you getting the sense that you being skeptical is a problem? Yeah. Help me understand why is being skeptical a problem. Because it confirms how, like, you know, how my social skills must be. the reason why she thought I was autistic in the first place. And I don't listen to other people. Sorry.

Keep going. She was actually the first person who told me that she thought I was autistic. Okay. Have you considered actually seeing a clinician about that? I did try, actually, but all of the doctor, I mean, the people I saw. I think that you are or something. I'm sorry, you cut out there.

And by the way, you may want to move your mic threshold or switch to push to talk. Because I think it's sometimes the Discord is clipping the very beginning of your words. Yeah, so being skeptical isn't okay. I guess so. What do you think, though? I don't know. I think I just spend a lot of time thinking about, like, what other people think about me.

Okay. And if other people don't think it's okay, then it's not okay. I still kind of have that default mode in my brain a little bit. Yeah. So I think it sounds to me like you're someone who's very thoughtful about your relationships. Right? Like you think a lot about how to, and that's, I imagine it must be really frustrating for you because you spend a lot of time thinking about it.

it sounds like you're almost feeling kind of hopeless about repairing relationships. Like you can build relationships. But sometimes like when things get bumpy, you have a lot of difficulty figuring out how to patch things up. And then you spend a lot of time thinking about it, but thinking about it doesn't seem to really fix it. But all you kind of, so then you're like calculating like you're playing 4D chess and then 5D chess and then 6D chess. And no matter how many layers of thinking about it you do, it doesn't seem to really help.

How does that, is that pretty accurate? I guess so, yeah. I just like the phrase 40 chess. It's kind of accurate. Yeah, right? Because you're, and so I think a lot. So here's what I'd say, Clara. So first of all, I don't think you're hopeless.

Second of all, I think it's worthwhile. I didn't catch what you said earlier, but I think it's worthwhile getting a clinical evaluation about whether you're on the spectrum or whether it is trauma or things like that, because irrespective of which one of those things it is, both of those things can impact relationships. And one of the things that I find the most difficult is that if you do have some kind of diagnosis at play, what I find is that people are absolutely Herculean with the amount of

effort and energy that they put in. But if there's something like autism or trauma or depression or something like that in the way, then like, like, you know, like that. then like you're just kind of like you're driving a car with a flat tire if that kind of makes sense. I'm not saying you are artistic or that you have trauma or anything like that. Does that make sense? I mean, yeah, I just, I don't think it's really applicable to me so much anymore. Like, I'm trying to live my life as if I'm a normal person and navigating things by just talking about, what I need instead of labeling it as anything. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds to me like you're a

normal person and I think vocalizing what your needs are sounds like a very, very good thing to do. And it also sounds like based on, you know, my first question, which is like, you know, how are your friendships? Now, it sounds like they're pretty good. Are you pretty happy with them? Yeah. Yeah. So what I would kind of go back to is that, you know, when you, you know, when you, you know, you run into conflict with someone, I would steer clear of some of the I statements and also try to understand people's perspectives a little bit better as opposed to explaining your own. What do you think about that? I'm sorry, I'm still very skeptical. Good, right? So what makes you skeptical? Because it hasn't worked in the past. Yeah. And can you help me understand how you've tried to

understand their perspective? I'm sorry. My rabbit makes noise in the background. Well, I mean... Rabbit noise is fine. Okay. She's so noisy. Okay.

How did I try to understand people in the past? Well, I mean, I usually use all of the, like, psychology knowledge that I kind of have gleaned over the years. Clara, do you want to understand other people? Yeah, that's kind of the question, isn't it? I guess so. I think, I don't know. Okay.

Yeah, okay. So, sorry. No, no, no, no. This is very, very helpful. Okay. So now the issue is that, so here's what I'm noticing. Okay. You let me know if this is wrong, all right?

So you have a conflict with someone. And when your friend like opens up, your bad friend, you don't care about me. Do you want to understand her? No. Right? No, because I just don't think that it's true. Okay. So this is really important.

Right? So like if you're using psychology techniques and like, so here's what I'm, you're really, I commend you, Clara, for putting together, putting in so much effort for something that you is not in your heart. Like, right? Like, so this is the kind of thing where we can say like, oh, Claire is bad because she doesn't want to repair a friendship. But let's acknowledge for a moment how frustrating it is if you've been friends with someone for years and they just, and you're like, hey, like, I think I could be autistic.

and your friend is like, hey, I think I could be autistic. And you're like, hey, by the way, like, I've done some searching and stuff. I don't think I'm autistic anymore. And she's like, how dare you? And then you're like, okay, well, this isn't good, right? Because I should be friends with this person and like, oh my God. Okay, so like, clearly something is wrong here. Let me do some research.

Let me go to Google School of Communication and learn psychology techniques and, like, communicate with people. But I think what's going on here is that, you can use all the techniques that you want to, but if your heart ain't in it, people are going to figure it out. And this is the kind of thing where I think it actually kind of starts with you in terms of, my guess is that sometimes people say things that catch you really off guard and you think that they're really, really unfair.

And the hurt of that, right? And this is what happens when people like, this isn't just you. But like, if someone just shows up and is like, hey, by the way, you're a complete ass. And then I'm like, no, I'm not. Screw you, right? I don't want to understand there. Because especially with criticism, like, we don't want to understand and ask a lot of questions, like, about how we're a bad person and how we're like, you know, like, we don't want to understand that perspective. But I've been trying to understand that perspective for the past eight months.

Do you want to, though? I completely agree. You're trying. Remember, you get an A plus for effort. Yeah. I just, I don't know, I just don't really think it, I think it's a bit of a dead end. Like, okay, can I say this? I hope so.

It comes back, it comes back to the transactional friendships thing. Okay, because. Tell me about that. Because like, at least, yeah, this is terrible. in terms of like energy you know if you have a bunch of friends who are more or less okay with you being the way that you are and then you have like one friend who isn't like what choice are you going to make in terms of like bending over backwards to maintain that friendship Yeah, bending over backwards to maintain the one friendship

versus taking the chance of just that things will be all right without them. You know? Yeah, I mean, do you feel guilty for doing that? Let me ask you a different question. Should you feel guilty? No, I'm just remembering. Sorry. Yeah, go ahead.

I'm just remembering that she said that she was done with me. So I wasn't actually the one that broke up technically. Okay. But I definitely did want to leave. That was, that was, that was an issue. It was like she desperately, desperately didn't want me to leave, but I kind of want, I don't know. Yeah, this sounds kind of confusing, but let me, let me share this. So sometimes, so this is actually really a good point.

So sometimes we have historical friendships, right? And as we grow and change, those historical friendships are not. longer, like, worth kind of preserving. And I think sometimes that's the case. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I just don't...

I don't know. I just... I just don't know when you make that determination totally. But, um... I mean, yeah. I'm sure it happens. Yeah. So I think that what I'm...

What I'm hearing from you, Clara, is actually a lot of confidence. in how you feel about the situation, but almost a reluctance to vocalize it. Definitely. And my guess is that you're concerned about the perception because, you know, so like this is a problem that like, oh, like, oh my God, it's like your friend from high school and you ought to have been so close for so long. And then she blows up at you one day and you're like, yeah, I'm done with this shit.

but that's not what a good friend does. A good friend like listens and tries to understand their perspective and tries to patch up the friendship because the friendship that you have is so strong. You're like, yeah, I'm done with that shit. Is that how you feel? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I hope that there's people out there that can relate to this. That's kind of my only. That's why we're talking. I can guarantee you there's tons of people out there. Because here's the thing. No one ever says what you say, which is that this relationship is exhausting now. I've grown. And like, I just don't have the bandwidth for this anymore.

I don't know. What don't you know? What is that? Sorry, I have a little bit of a cough. No, sometimes I just say I don't know because I guess it's because I want to say yes, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to. There it is. Look at that.

So here's the thing, okay? Okay, so now we're going to kind of like wrap up and it's going to be pretty simple. First thing is no amount of psychological techniques is going to preserve a friendship that your heart is not in. I can see you nodding emphatically. Yeah, yeah. So no amount of like, oh, like this.

Yeah, I agree. Right? So like if your heart's not in and you're like, I'm just done with this, then like at least acknowledge that for yourself. Right. So that's number one. And so I can understand why you're skeptical because here I'm like, oh, like, Clara, try to understand her perspective. And you're like, yeah, I don't think that's going to work. And I completely agree with you because I can give you all the techniques in the world. But if your heart ain't in it, if you actually don't want to understand her perspective, if you're kind of like done with this, then like you're done. Like no amount of techniques is going to fix that. Now, if you're looking for license from me that that is okay, I'll give it to you. I'll say, yeah, that's okay. I mean, you don't have to. I'm in charge of myself for the most part.

Sure, but I think, I do think that this is, like, important because why do you say, I don't know? It's because you're not allowed societally to say, like, this relationship is just not worth the energy. anymore because that makes you a bad person. I don't think it makes you a bad person. I think that's a reality of life that we actually like is happening every single day that we just don't admit. And then we get into situations like this where people are like trying to make a relationship that neither party wants to be a part of work because I don't want to abandon my friend. Right. And technically she broke up with me.

right because you're okay you're in the clear according to the rules yeah honestly I wasn't really expecting that from her though I don't know I had apologized to her for my part

and I thought that's what she wanted but then when I asked her to apologize to me about the thing that she wrote to me she was done I'm sorry you sound hurt you sound pissed I'm not allowed to be hurt

Dr. Kay. I'm the villain. I'm the villain. Sorry. So, I mean, if you feel hurt and you feel pissed, right? Like, I do think there's, like, there's a lot for you to learn from this situation. And at the top of the list is like being aware. I mean, I think you know what you want. I think you just pretend to want something else. And like, that's not good in a relationship. You need authenticity. Oh, God. What? You're so right. Oh. Now, here's why this is important, because somewhere along the way, you may run into a relationship that you do actually want to preserve. And in that, if you run into that, then at some point you may need to, like, work on yourself in terms of understanding why you don't want the relationship, especially if it's good for you. So I'm especially thinking about something like a serious romantic relationship. I know we're talking about friendships today, but, you know, this is the kind of thing where if you're, like, invested in a romantic relationship, and these kinds of feelings come up for you, I think it's fine to leave your friend from high school in the past.

Because that just happens. People like, you're not the same person that you were in high school. And what made y'all friends in high school, y'all have grown into different people. And, you know, people grow out of friendship in the same way that they grow out of romantic relationships. But when a relationship is important to you, the one thing that I'd sort of say is that you be really, like,

careful about not convincing yourself that it's no longer important. And at the end of the day, just really be honest with what you want and, you know, kind of who you are. And I'd say that, you know, if relationship, if you're not happy with the way that your relationships are progressing, if you've been concerned about, this isn't just about you, this is just in general for people, right? If you're concerned that you could have been on the autism spectrum or that you have social anxiety or trauma-related stuff, attachment-related stuff, I think it's really reasonable to go see a clinician. and sort of like get that stuff sort of sorted out. I mean, generally speaking, you know, I heard you kind of say, you know, I want to operate as a normal person.

I think you're a normal person, but even if you're autistic, that doesn't make you not a normal person, right? And so it's just something, it's a lever to be pulled if and when you're kind of unhappy with your journey without it, if that kind of makes sense. So by all means, get as far as you can without clinical evaluation. But if at some point you're not happy with things,

then get clinical evaluation. I wanted to say I wanted to say another thing because yeah you said in terms of romantic relationships and oh what was it that you have to be honest about what you want

I also am a person who doesn't really want romantic or sexual relationships I think I'm like a rock okay um that's also been a big challenge in my life because it was exactly that thing. It was like I got into a few romantic relationships without realizing that I didn't actually want it in the way that I think it was expected.

And I spent so much of my time pretending, pretending, pretending. I don't know what to do, Dr. Kay's. Why do you have to do anything? Because I have to face the world and tell the world. that I don't want all of these things that normal relational people want. So, but that's another topic. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I think it's related, but I do think that that's a different chapter. So here's what I leave you with.

So here's what I'm kind of noticing from you and you let me know whether this kind of sinks in. So like the world expects things from you, Clara. the older the friendship, the more important it is and the more you should care about it. We are friends since we are three years old, and I can't sacrifice that for anything, even if the friend has grown up into a raging narcissist, or you have, right? Who knows? So it's okay for society to have certain expectations of people. I think not living up to those expectations is actually okay.

like I don't think that your value as a human being increases or decreases if you decide that you're just not interested in romance or you're asexual or whatever whatever you know you do you I think the fault lies and the hurt comes from pretending and letting someone else be a part of that fiction yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah so so I think that's where like if you want to hold some kind of of accountability or like, you know, you don't have to tell the world. I mean, it's not like you have to walk around with a shirt that says I'm not interested in relationships. And that's like, you know, like you could be not in a romantic relationship for the rest of your life. And you'll probably have to explain it to someone here or there. But, you know, it's not like most people are just off living their lives.

Yeah. And so I'd say, be honest with yourself, first of all. And even like, if you're concerned about the judgment of the world, like, you know, that's understandable, right? Because there are certain expectations and people will judge you and stuff like that. But that's where the more centered you are. I mean, I think your problem actually arises not from telling the world your truth. I think your problem arises from pretending it isn't your truth. And then trying to play the game of the world and being inauthentic with yourself. And then it causes, it causes problems because your heart isn't in it. And then you're

like trying to satisfy the world's expectations. What do you think about that? Yeah. So, you know, to sum it up, you do you, girl. I guess so. You have female pronouns here, but, you know. It's fine. I don't really care that much. Okay.

How does it sound to hear that? I mean, how does it feel to hear that? I kind of don't really feel anything. Like, I don't feel relief and I don't feel, yeah. That's okay. I don't know. Yeah, right? But I think you're cool.

Yeah, so once again, it's like, oh my God, am I supposed to be feeling relief right now? Oh, I don't. No. That's fine. You do you. Right? Hopefully it's been helpful. And even if it hasn't, that's okay.

Like, we tried. Yeah. I hope. I get the sense that you understand things a little bit better than when we started this conversation, you know? And I think that a lot of people who are listening probably resonated with what you said. Yeah. Cool. Any last thoughts or, you know, closing remarks before we wrap up?

No. I think I'm good. Awesome. Thank you very much for calling in. I think it was really important to hear what you had to share. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Kay.

Take care. Bye. Yeah. So that's how it is sometimes. Like, I thought it was good, actually. Right? Because this is the sort of situation. where like we're supposed to behave a certain way.

We're supposed to like maintain friendships. And we have like all of these like, you know, we have this like social scoring system in terms of what we're supposed to value. And then we run into relationship problems. And then like if we're trying to play a game that we don't feel authentic, and I know it's like it's kind of weird. But Clara was really great for sharing one really important authentic feeling, which is that I I don't think this relationship is worth my time anymore. I don't want to go through the effort of understanding why this person is upset with me.

And does that make you an asshole? I don't think so. Like, if it happens over and over and over again and you're leaving, like, you know, dumpster fire after dumpster fire of relationship, then maybe it is a problem. But I think this is the kind of thing where, honestly, you're going to create more hurt in the world if you try to be something that you're not,

as opposed to authentically sort of saying like, hey, I'm sorry you feel that way. I was taken aback by where this is coming from. And, you know, if you're done with the relationship, like, that's totally fine by me. I am too. I really appreciated the time that we've spent together. Your friendship has meant a lot to me,

but I think we just seems like we're not really interested in maintaining this, which is totally fine. I'm grateful for the time that we had. I wish you all the best. Adios. and that's okay, right? And then people would be like, I can't believe that you threw it away,

like you threw it away. Like, how dare you throw it away? It's like, I mean, throw it away. Sure, if that's what you want to call it, if you want to blame me for it, like that's okay. But like people grow and they change and they form new connections and you don't have to hold on to the past.

Just because something was valuable to you in the past doesn't mean that has to be valuable to you in the present. We sort of even heard that a little bit in terms of like, it sounds like there have been some challenges in the past in terms of trying to pretend to be interested in romantic relationships when you're not. So it's okay to be that way. It's okay to want to move on from relationships. It's okay not to be loyal to things that don't really interest you anymore.

Right? And as you are authentic with people, I think that too is not going to hurt other people. Because if you're sort of straight up with people that, hey, you know, like this is just who I am and this is what I'm interested in, you kind of give the people the choice to accept it or not accept it. The hurt actually comes when you pretend to be something else. They opt into that relationship, and it turns out that your heart really isn't in it. And then you're practicing all these psychological techniques to try to keep them happy when you actually don't care about them in the first place.

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