HealthyGamerGG - An Honest Talk About Male Pressure & Depression ft. Dr. Zac Seidler @Movember

Episode Date: November 8, 2025

Dr. K sits down with Dr. Zac Seidler for an unfiltered discussion about the modern male crisis like how societal expectations around strength, success, and emotional restraint are leaving men isolated, angry, and quietly collapsing inside. Together they unpack how men are taught to earn love through performance, how shame hides under humor and burnout, and why mental health systems often fail to reach them. In the second half, Dr. K explores deeper layers of male identity: how purpose collapses when external validation fades, the spiritual hunger behind modern depression, and how men can rebuild meaning through discipline, vulnerability, and connection. This is one of the most nuanced conversations yet about what’s really happening beneath the “men’s mental health” crisis. Topics include: The hidden link between masculinity, depression, and social isolation How humor, anger, and overwork mask emotional pain Why traditional therapy often misses how men communicate distress The collapse of meaning and identity in modern male life Dr. K’s framework for purpose and inner alignment Building connection without losing strength or autonomy What real progress for men’s mental health should look like today HG Coaching : https://bit.ly/46bIkdo Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health: https://bit.ly/44z3Szt HG Memberships : https://bit.ly/3TNoMVf Products & Services : https://bit.ly/44kz7x0 HealthyGamer.GG: https://bit.ly/3ZOopgQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hey, chat, welcome to the Healthy Gamer Gigi podcast. I'm Dr. Al-Alo Kanoja, but you can call me Dr. K. I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer. On this podcast, we explore mental health and life in the digital age, breaking down big ideas to help you better understand yourself and the world around you. So let's dive right in. All righty, chat. Let's get started.

Welcome to another Healthy Gamer Gigi stream. My name is Dr. Alok Canoja. Just a reminder that although I'm a psychiatrist, nothing we'd on stream today is intended to be taken as medical advice. Everything is for educational or entertainment purposes only. If you all have a medical concern or question, please go see a licensed professional. So super psych today. So we are in the month of November. And we have an awesome guest today, Dr. Zach Seidler from Movember, who's going to be talking a little bit. We're going to be having a conversation as clinicians about male mental health, masculinity, and we'll sort of see what Dr.

Seidler has to say. Moovember is an amazing organization that supports mental health for men. They do, I think I've seen that they've done over 1,300 different projects that sort of focus on mental health. So we're going to hop into an interview with Dr. Seidler, Dr. Zach, and we're going to learn a little bit about male mental health. So welcome, Dr. Zach. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and Movember? For sure. Great to be here. I'm in the future, Dr. Kay. It's Saturday morning here in Australia. So I'm just, I'm living the dream. It's great. It's looking good for you. Don't worry. Okay. And it's awesome to be able to partner with you guys and to be able to share our work at Movember. We obviously, we're in the, we're in the states as well. We're in 20 countries. Started in, you know, 2003 with a couple of guys in a pub going where did moustaches go pretty much? And that was the time when, you know, there weren't. hipsters galore growing them for fun and uh you know they were working a lot in in women's health

these these guys and realizing that no one was actually focusing on on guys and they were witnessing lots of their friends really struggling and there was nowhere for them to go nothing for them to grab a hold of no movement that they could get around um and so they started the moustache movement as you can see in my in my background and um you know a meme a practical joke goes a long a long way It turns out it goes from Melbourne, Australia, all the way to the states. We've got offices in LA. We've got them in London and Toronto. And we've been creating community.

Over six million people have taken part in the program over the years and fundraise for us. Importantly, I joined about seven years ago. I'm a clinical psychologist and have specialized in men's mental health. My PhDs in male depression and suicide of masculinity has been my jam for a very long. time could have something to do with having two older brothers who beat the shit out of me but you know goodness live and live and learn um no they're they're good they were good good guys but i um i learned a lot about what it meant to be a man um through my dad actually who who was a family physician um you know incredible guy uh treated you know heroin addicts really in sydney for a really

long time started methadone clinics here um and i worked as his receptionist And so got a really good grasp on, you know, the breadth and depth of society and personalities out there. And so I just started to really love and focus on stories and why people, you know, acted and behaved the way that they did. And really my way in was gender. It was really interesting to think about the pressures that I was experiencing as a young guy at the time. You know, my friends, what what I was. I was really doing with them and putting on different masks, depending on the party that I was at, depending on what class I was in, if there were girls there. It was a really interesting dynamic for me to be like, what am I doing here?

Why am I shape-shifting? Why am I becoming a million? What am I afraid of as well? And so that idea of policing of manhood was front and center for me. And so I moved through the whatever nine years. of university that it took me to get to where I am and focused very specifically on this idea of male help seeking because I started to hear really early on in my undergrad, everyone just kept saying, oh, men don't seek help. They don't seek up. They don't talk. They don't have emotions.

And I was like, this is bullshit. It was just not true. Every man in my life has a rich, deep, emotional, internal world. We're just not gaining access to it. And so, you know, I really started to focus on what is it that we're missing here? Because lots of guys are asking for help. They are putting up their hand. And seemingly, we're actually not listening to what they're offering. And that's where my interaction with Movember came about. And, you know, a beautiful relationship blossomed that was really focused on how are we going to move beyond this idea that men need to just talk more and be more vulnerable and actually start to create a society that is ready to listen. And we have so many different ways that we go about that during this month, obviously.

We've got a walking talking billboard that is currently bum fluff on my face, but, you know, we'll grow pretty quickly over the next couple weeks. I'm lucky that I'm a fast grower. But the, you know, the other ways in which we work with guys is going into places where they exist, where they spend their time, where they, you know, bear their hearts and souls. And gaming in e-sports is obviously, you know, millions, billions of guys are there. And so we're not going to do this thing where we're in an ivory tower saying, listen to me, kids. Meet people where they're up. This is what depression is.

Yeah, we're going to come in and we're going to sit alongside them. And that's what my members are all about. Where we're going to MNR, we're sitting with them. We're not talking at them. We're talking with them because I think we've missed a trick, really, when it comes to you know, getting in the trenches and realizing the pressures that guys are facing today. Yeah. So when you listen to, or actually, I'm a bit curious. So do you come from a particular like therapeutic frame? So when you work with young men, this is just something that I like to

ask people who are mental health professionals. Like this is like not so much for the audience as it is for me. So like what kind of modalities and stuff? How do you, what, what, when you work with men, like, what kind of work do you do? Yeah. So currently my role of Movember is Global Director of Research. So I look after all of our research programs. We've got like $25 million worth of programs all over the world. And so I'm like a scientist practitioner and I do clinical work as well on the site. As you know, it's like if you don't keep your toe dipped in, it's like I do all of this research over here. And then I sit down with a 16 year old kid and I'm like, well, listen, look what I learned in my study. And they're like, shut the, like this does not resonate. for me. So I really want to make sure that I'm keeping my chops going. I was trained in CBT and act pretty strongly. I've got a psychodynamic leaning just because I remember getting like Freud's books when I was 13. I was like, hell shit, this looks fun. Dreams, let's do more of that. So that's always interested me. But like motivational interviewing is pretty big with the

the young guys that I see. You know, addiction is really key, porn addiction, gaming addiction. I'm seeing so many young guys who have lost sight of their own values and like reality, really. And so I use a lot of that, you know, Tony Robbins-esque, let me just scream at you until you, until you find your path. But there's a lot of, it's so funny because I was trained in, in like, you know, Socratic questioning. Let's find this way of talking. with a young guy so that they can come to their own conclusions. And so many of them are coming in. They're like, please, can someone give me some advice?

Yeah. And I remember early on, my supervisor being like, we can't do that. We can't. And I was like, I call bullshit on that. That's my, my MO now is like I consider myself, hopefully, someone who has, you know, done the work and I have things to offer. I'm not going to, you know, didactically just talk down to them. But if I have an opinion on something that might benefit, then why am I going to withhold that?

Yeah, that's so interesting because I think I sometimes wonder if there's a gender bias or not sometimes wonder, I believe there is a gender bias in psychotherapy. And even the fact that we just use that talk therapy and using language to address emotions being the gold standard of how we help people with emotions, I wonder if there's a bias there because, you know, women have a higher verbal intelligence and there's a lot of stuff around estrogen and emotional awareness. And so many of the men that I've worked with actually giving them advice or helping them find actions to take. And I lean very heavily into MI as well, not formally act, but also a lot of act, basically.

And so it's so interesting to hear that we sort of gravitate it. And I also have what I would call. I think psychodynamic leaning is a very, I love that term because it's like I don't really do psychodynamic psychotherapy. But I like a lot of the concepts and try to sprinkle them in a little bit. But it's a healthy way. Yeah. It's very like action oriented. And I remember I had a, I had a patient who came in and I was a third year trainee.

And he would come in and like complain about his life and invent. And we would talk about how depressed he is. And he would come in every week and he would talk about how depressed he is. And I'd be like, I do a lot of empathic listening. And then like six or eight months in, I was like, is this helping? And he's like, well, I mean, isn't this what we're supposed to do? Like, aren't I supposed to come in and like talk about my feelings? And then you listen compassionately.

And then that's the job of therapy. And so I'm so curious, what have you learned when you work with young men? Like, what's going on with dudes right now? Yeah. So just on what you were talking about as well, like we've spent a long time trying to realize that this, this responsibility for men to like adapt to the therapeutic language, the idea that guys should come in and just talk in this emotionally vulnerable way that they've never been socialized to do so. If anyway, if they've actually been punished for doing so. And so it's like now this just like let go of all of the preconceptions that you have. and, you know, lie on my couch and talk to me about everything that's bothering you. It's never going to happen. So we're actually at November trying to create models of training for clinicians to actually adapt their practice.

So the system changes so that, you know, for instance, I play cod with my clients. Like when their hands are busy. Why, bro? That's, that's why. Whatever. Whatever game's going, man. Like, I played league before. I played, you know, whatever is, yeah, it's a thing, man. And you cannot imagine the amount of rich conversation that has come out.

Hey, y'all, just a reminder that in addition to these awesome videos, we have a ton of tools and resources to help you grow and overcome the challenges that you face. We've got things like Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health, personalized coaching programs, and things like free community events and other sorts of tools to help you no matter where you are on your mental health journey. the link in the description below and back to the video. It's been wild. I'm really confused by that.

Okay, so when you say you play a cod with your clients or patients, are you playing cod or lull with them as part of your therapy or you play it outside of your clinical interaction? No, no, no, no, no. As part, that's part. I'm not just hanging out with my clients. So, but how do you have a substantive conversation when people are inting down mid? Yeah. The incredible side of this is that they actually don't focus on the game. They focus on the cognitive processing that they want to be doing. So they're always getting shot in the head. This is just the way that it goes. We're not playing very well. But I do find it started out, I started playing like table tennis and pool. And then I started to see that the young guys wanted to do. And so I started to just move towards. what they wanted to focus on and having an activity that was of use to them.

And gaming just naturally arose. And so, you know, Codd is one example. I've only had one client that I've played Cod with. I've had, you know, a number that I've, you know, we played, it was so weird. One guy just wanted to play Tetris. He was like obsessed with Tetris. And that, that openness that came from his ability to, disentangle himself from the pressure to be a certain guy meant that the different part of his

brain was being turned on during the therapeutic session and the openness was just wild and we got this is what I always say when I work with young women versus young men the young women like it rolls out of them immediately and the young guys once you get to the trust respect and comfort fundamentally, which is possible, the progress is actually even faster in my eyes. And so when you asked about the pressures that young men are facing, I think that it's like an input-output problem, which is that the world is telling them so many conflicting narratives that there is so much confusion. And their output is, depending on the environment, they actually really don't know what type of man they need to be. And I always talk

about like the door handle phenomenon. I have so many young guys who talk about this idea that, you know, I held the door for one woman and she thanked me and I held the door for another and she slapped me. And it's like, what the fuck is going on? Where am I? What is this? And so I think that the pressures, you know, I know you've spoken a lot about like parosocial relationships. There's so much crap coming in that's telling them who they need to be and what they need to be. And it's this unattainable standard that is just crushing. It's fundamentally crushing. And so what I actually largely spend most of my time doing and what we're trying to do at Movember is move towards authenticity. It's like the shitty moustache that you can grow is the mustache that you have.

Like that's who you are. How can we find a way for you to value that and understand that you are unique in whatever way and what matters to you should be the North Star. And so it's, it's that idea of like social connection and the idea that so many young guys, all they are seeking is friendship and belonging. Yeah, it's it's something that they want. They'll watch live streams with guys like us because they want to feel connected. They want to feel this sense of cultural relevancy. They want to feel like they're clued into the zeitgeist, whatever it might be. But the sad thing is that we're all watching this stuff, but then they don't have anyone to talk to about it. And so, you know, that's where this like pressure versus reality comes in, which is

their priorities for connection are overwhelmed by the fear of vulnerability of picking up the phone and, you know, being like, hey man, I want to, I want to hang out and not being perceived as gay or weak or whatever it might be and just saying this is what I need. This is what I need to succeed. This is what I need to be the best version of myself versus cutting myself off from my lifelines. Yeah. So I think what's so challenging about this, I mean, so I completely, I can see the act sprinkling into what you're kind of saying. And I can get on board with that as a, is a psychiatrist. What I'm kind of curious about is, I mean, you're saying, okay, like we're moving towards authenticity, and I can see the value of that, especially when, like you're saying, people get

conflicting information, right? So where everyone is sure what a man should be, the problem is that no one agrees. And so I can sort of see how authenticity is like the only way out of that. But what I'm curious about is when someone practically, so I'm thinking about some of the patients I've worked with who are trying to decide whether they should shave their heads or not, And this is one of those things where, like, from an advice standpoint, you know, sometimes they'll ask me, should I shave my head? And I'd be like, you know, bro, that comb over is not doing you any favors, you know? And so what I really struggle with is if you're saying, okay, if you grow a crappy mustache, grow your crappy mustache. But then how do you navigate that with like, maybe this is my bias thinking, but I'm going to use the word, the fact that if you're a dude who has a crappy mustache or a crappy comb over,

that that will not really advance. Desirability. Yeah, in terms of dating or even like professional settings and things like that. So like I'm all for authenticity. But like when some people are authentic, you know, especially with the way that they talk or, you know, get banned from Discord servers and things like that. Like how do you navigate the world treating them very poorly when they are authentic? Yeah. Very, very bad question.

And I think that, firstly, if you're growing a shitty mustache, you only grow it during November because you're like, oh, look at me. I'm doing charity. How good is that? And that's hot. So, you know, that should offset. That should offset the shitty mustache. So you're not saying keep it.

Do not keep it. Do not keep it. But there is, there is, you know, I totally agree that like authenticity for authenticity sake, the idea that like, oh, I'm being my true self so you can just be an asshole. Like, that's not, and I see so much of that. And I know that our, all of our gaming, you know, researchers and team at Movember, they've sat on enough, you know,

Discord and Twitch stream to be able to see the horrible behavior, egregious shit that goes on, misogyny, homophobia, you know, like, if that is your version of authenticity, like, bin it. So I do think that there is an interaction. between this notion of authenticity and, you know, whether it's equitable behavior, whether it's a desire, you know, trying to put yourself in the best light to be desirable

in a dating or friendship situation. I do think that you want to be able to find that nexus between your authentic self so that you're not like burying your values and what matters to you, which I think mattering is really important there. But on the other, other side, I also think that reading the room is like the fundamental thing that is going to benefit young men and talking at people and deciding that other people need to hear this thing. Like, I think authenticity is about self and other. And being your authentic self means knowing what type of authenticity is required in the context, what type of situation you're in and that if you are, you know, in a group and someone's making a sexist joke that your authentic self is actually,

I'm not going to laugh at that because I don't think that that's funny, but lots of people are just going to laugh at because they're too afraid of saying, no, that's not who I am. So it's context dependent, I think, where authenticity should show up and you should be able to go, all right, I'm in this room, I'm in this class, I'm in this therapy session, whatever it might be. I have multiple versions of manhood that I can pull on. And this is where you were saying, it's like these guys online, these influences are like, do this and everything will be okay. If we strive for this.

But it's so simplistic and doesn't take into account the messiness that is a constant iteration of who I am in the same way that, you know, just shedding skin in a way. You know, it's like being a different, different guy every day. every time you're gaming, you're a different version of yourself and attempting to play in exactly the same way that you did yesterday. It's not reality. So I think that we should, we should all kind of embrace the fact that we are working this stuff out and we're going to get it right and wrong sometimes, but it's how you pivot. It's how your flexibility kind of comes

into play. Flexibility and authenticity are like hand in hand in my eyes. That's so interesting. So I've got like two or three different kinds of questions. So my first question is a little bit of a curveball. So I've worked with plenty of women who also struggle with some version of the door handle problem, right? You should have kids. You shouldn't have kids. You should be a professional person. You shouldn't be a professional person. What do you think it is that, so I think if we look at the world, it judges, it makes confusing judgments to women. There's body positivity, but you should also look a particular way. What do you think is different? about men and women with respect to the way that the world judges them.

Yeah. I've heard you speak about this. I know you've got you've got thoughts on it. I think that when it comes to judgment, it's the internal versus the external. I think women naturally do a lot of shaming of them themselves, especially in those situations when they're not living up to it, when they just have a kid, and, and they do something wrong. No one actually says anything to them. There's just this, this idea that they're being watched. You know, I think that that is, that's a really strong, and then they internalize it and you end up with this process of shame. And that sense of failure that actually looks very similar to what young men, for instance, experience. But men live, I think,

in a world, and it's not to say that there is not, you know, egregious violence that takes place for women and girls, but there is a constant threat of bullying, the constant threat of violence, the constant policing, you know, banter is used as a great excuse for shit-talking someone, you know, in a way, it's just a joke until it's really not. And so I think that at least in a perception, you know, side of things, young guys perceive that the risk to getting something something wrong is is much higher. I think that they perceive that if something goes wrong, the man cards that they have been handed will be stripped from them immediately. I do not believe that women walk around being like someone is about to take my femininity from me. So it yeah,

it's a precipice. I think that men are constantly feeling like they're on a precipice of having something, you know, pushed off, taken away. That's so interesting. So, so, so I mean, you, you, you really emphasize the word perception. So do you think that that what do you think is the congruence of that perception with the reality that we live in? So this this really lines up with a lot of research that we do at Movember called the perception gap. So it's this idea like what are your own values? So for instance, I ask you, do you think that you should be a breadwinner? And you'll be like, oh, like 25%, you know, maybe.

If you ask them, do you think society thinks that men should be a breadwinner? the jump is massive. And so the perception that everyone around me believes that this is what masculinity is. There's like an unspoken code. But yet when you go to 100 guys, the vast majority of them don't actually agree with it from their own point of view. And so who makes these rules? Like is there just this puppet master, this masculinity dude who's like, this is how it will be everyone. I'm going to pass down this doctrine.

because every 16 year old kid is like, I don't fucking want to do this. This is exhausting me. This is pain. And so this is where it's like, when I talk about perception, I think it is this notion of the like panopticon. I don't know,

like this idea that there are police watching us from all angles. And if I cry somehow, even though I know that I'm feeling this thing properly, I'm so afraid that they're watching and I will be I will be stripped of something. And I think, you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on like how that shows up from a behavioral perspective in the gaming world. Like what you've seen if you're like in a small team with people and they're able to be their authentic self versus like you're in the round and people start to put on this mask

and end up leaning into a type of behavior because they're afraid of that, you know, being their true selves in a way. So they lean into this notion of like, I have to be this version in order to succeed. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking,

maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for, endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. So I'm not sure I 100% answer the question, understand the question. But my first answer is that I think most of the people that I know in e-sports and in gaming that I've worked with have very little connection to their authentic selves unless they do.

So I think this presumption, I mean, not presumption, but I think the work that you do about helping people connect to their authenticity is vital. And I think that people, most people that I know don't really even know what their authentic self is. And I love this word panopticon. I've never heard that before, but boy, do I love it. sounds like a transformer. And so, but so I think people have been so influenced, right, by this perception gap that their experience of their authentic self has been slowly buried like one layer of sand at a time.

And so who you are in case and point, and this is why I kind of asked about the perception because, you know, I've worked with so many men, like there's one man I know who is a stay-at-home dad and that is like acceptable. But like if you're a dude and you go on a dating app and you're like, hi, my name is whatever. My hope is to never have a career and be a stay at home dad and just spend time. Or not even a stay at home dad.

Like I mean, it doesn't even like maybe I don't even want kids. It's like I'm not interested in having a career. Like the way that the world receives them, right? And that's why like I get what you're saying about a perception gap. And I've seen that cognitive. bias is huge, especially with sort of some of the manosphere thinking and the red pill thinking and the black pill thinking. So I've seen that. But I was trying to answer it. So I think a lot of

people, sorry, so my question to you was really about how you navigate. Is there a reality to it? Yeah. And how do you navigate? How do you help people, you know, show up in an authentic way when it's not clear that the world will receive them in an authentic way? And then the second question is, what if the authenticity, and this is, I'm so curious about this, because I think sometimes, you know, there's a lot of real lived resentment, anger, frustration. I would not call that inauthentic in any way. So how do you navigate through that, right? So if someone makes a sexist joke and I really do think it's funny, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, is it okay to laugh or not laugh? Like, how do you, I'm so, I'm fascinated by your

perspective and the work that you did. But I'm really curious, how do you navigate some of those things? And apologies, if I did not answer your question sufficiently. I'm happy to talk about it. That makes sense. That makes sense. I'm intrigued by that idea that like the vast majority of gamers or e-sports players don't have access to their authentic self. Like that's, they're so bear. And I think maybe it might have something to do with the digital world that they inhabit, it, that they have a distance, they have an avatar of sorts that actually gives them distance to create some form of, you know, three-dimensional mask, you know, that allows them to actually avoid certain things, because there is such a, there's such a appearance versus reality in that,

in that space and the desire to present yourself as such is going to, mean that in the offline world, it's not valued for you to do that work, maybe. Yeah, so, I mean, I would say it's a beautiful, deep perspective that I think is like, not my experience. So, so, so, I mean, I would say it's super simple. So I think that if we look at authenticity, right, so how do you know what's authentic? You get some kind of signal from in here as opposed to out there. And I think if you look at just the effect of technology use on someone's brain, it numbs their limbic system, numbs their amygdala,

really shuts down a lot of their internal signals. So, I mean, you can even look at the way that people, like, so playing video games for eight or 12 hours will suppress our hunger signals. So after you, like, stop gaming for eight hours, you, like, realize you're faming. and you've been hungry for a really long time. It's just been suppressing all these signals. So I almost notice that there's like a neuroscientific rusting of introspective experience. And like, I don't know how else to say this.

I mean, it's going to be a bit harsh, but this is honestly what I see. I mean, this is what I used to be. You know, when you're playing games for, let's say, 10 hours a day for like five years in a row, like what even is authentic? Like I don't even like I think it's it's so hard like it's gotten so rusty. Well, that's well that that's exactly kind of what you're asking, which is that, you know, if someone sits in a stream and they're surrounded by sexism and homophobia, it's a mirror back to them that goes, this is reality. This is how everyone thinks. And therefore, if you're finding it funny, that is your thing.

But you get so distanced from reality of. of what used to matter to you, you can't even hear your own internal introspective voice over time, because you've literally got everyone's fucking voice in your head via these headphones. And I think that distancing over time of playing, you know, eight to ten hours a day, live streaming, like you're literally unable to hear your own voice. You're unable to feel your own feelings. And like, that's where authenticity comes from. when you tell me that it's like, what if me being an asshole is my authentic self? Sure,

there's plenty of people where that might be a reality. But I think for many of them, it is actually that there are so many layers of crap that have been handed to them, actually. They haven't actually chosen them. That's the saddest thing for me. And that's, you know, when it comes to looking at, you know, men and masculinity influences, we've done it, Movember. It's like these guys come in. They're not seeking misogyny. They go and they start watching and they've got these relationships with these these influences and these content creators and and they actually get pulled away from the anchor of who they are or who they were and you know when they're 12 13 14 and then you're starting to get into 10 years and into 20s it's like if you don't spend time without input

without endless input telling you who you should be what you should care about what matters to you like you're at sea away from your authenticity, I think, in some ways. So if anything, for everyone, everyone listening, I think the idea of, this doesn't mean like disconnecting from the gaming experience, but it is like, how do I clue in, check in with how far away am I from where I thought I would be, maybe? Yeah, so what do you think it is that attracts people? So if I'm like a 14-year-old boy, right? I encounter some Manosphere influencer.

So fair enough that over time I get programmed and stuff sort of accretes in my conscious and subconscious mind. But what do you think it is that draws people to that kind of thing in the first place? Right? Because people love it. Yeah. We've written a lot about this. And Dr. Christopher Fisher,

who released this report with me on what was actually going on in this, this content, you know, dance, really. What they love is certainty. Like when you're 14, you're like, what is happening? Like everything, your skin is blowing up. Girls suddenly arise out of nowhere and you're like, oh, I have, I have interest. You're trying to understand what's going on at school. Your parents are telling you you need to succeed. Everything is messy. And you're also trying to actually find out what your identity is. And then you've got a guy on the phone who's saying this is what you need to be in order to succeed. This is how you get girls. This is how you get rich. This is how you get fit. And you're like, oh, three steps. Like,

that's awesome. Certainty is the hook in times of great uncertainty. And I think that that's what we haven't understood, which is that these young guys, they have a desire for purpose and meaning. And it's being weaponized fundamentally by bad actors because they've understood the algorithm, Whereas us, you know, I think we're attempting and you're doing an awesome job at trying to actually find that inroad to realize that we can talk about these things and how messy they are and still offer you a sense that things are going to be okay if we do this long-term work rather than give you a dope a hit. That actually the saddest thing, which I think lots of young guys are now codding on to, is they promise everything these guys. and slowly but surely you get inculcated into this belief system that they have the answers for you, but they pulled you away from everything that you value. They pull you away from your friends and your family.

They isolate you. They make you depressed fundamentally over time because you cannot attain that standard that they're selling because it's unattainable. Like it's not going to happen. And what they do over time is they tell you to resent everyone else. because everyone else is to blame rather than them taking responsibility because they're the ones who are ruining your life, you know? So can you tell me a little bit about social relationships and parasocial relationships? Because you're talking a little bit about how they pull you away from these connections.

So what's making it hard for men to form connections? Why do we end up with so many parasycial relationships? Yeah. This is, you know, in many ways, a U.S. centric phenomenon. And it's really sad to watch it's happening across the Western world. It happens in Australia. We used to have this idea that older men are like, oh, poor old mate, he's got no one to hang out with. But it's actually the young guys who are really feeling the greatest sense of isolation and loneliness now. And, you know, this loneliness epidemic,

every crisis piece of language is being thrown around. But the thing that's really interesting, and there's a recent Gallup poll that showed this, is that young men and young women actually have really similar rates of loneliness. It's the what happens after the fact that is really interesting, which is that when they're feeling lonely, women reach out. When men are feeling lonely, they recede. And so I actually think it's in the behavior that I'm most interested in,

which is like, and then what? Because we're all going to feel that. That's just how it works. It's what you do. And the fear of vulnerability of, again, picking up the phone and going, hey man, what's up? Can we go for lunch? You know, can I check in with you? You know, I'm feeling like shit. Can we can we chat? Like the fear that that is going to bring about some kind of repercussion whereby you're going to be perceived as weak, vulnerable, you know, is leading to. guys actually lesioning their social connections. And that's why you witness, you know, from 18

onwards, you see young women and their friendships and then they stabilize. And young men, once they get into college, it's just like, oh, and then it just falls off a cliff. And that is not biological. That is, that is socialized and that is a decision. That is a decision around priorities, that is a decision around the behavior that you're going to enact on a day-to-day basis, and parissocial relationships do not require any form of emotionality from you. Oh, man. Vulnerability. Yeah, that's so good.

They just take, take, take, there's nothing. There's no interaction. Take, take, take, or give, give, give? Well, they take your time. They give, give, give, yes. Yeah, because it's interesting, right, because I think people get a little. lot of feeling of connection from parisocial relationships. And I had never thought about it from the perspective of just a complete lack of vulnerability because you're not putting yourself out there.

You're not, there's no chance of rejection with a parissocial relationship, right? Because you're sitting there forming a connection with someone who there's no chance or expectation of a rejection with this person. And so how do you, that's fascinating. So how, you know, when when people, let's say I'm a lonely dude and I'm afraid to pick up the phone and and even it's so interesting because the examples that you offer assume a certain degree of emotional competence like hey man I'm feeling sad and lonely can we have a chance we have a chance we should find a new example for that you know I think like I I get those phone calls occasionally and I got a phone call a little while ago that was I'm getting divorced bro can I come that's the thing it's at the point

of crisis. Shit has hit the fan and it's like, now I need help. I want it so much earlier. No, I mean, I think it's even post-crisis. It's like, hey, this has happened. You know, I'd like to come see you. And then it's almost like after everything is over, like once the last book of the chapter has been written, that's when I hear about it. It's like post-crime, everything's done. There's, you know, it's so interesting. Because there's like, there's not really, there's no processing, there's not really any vulnerability. This happened, period. You know?

Yeah. And, and then it's like, it was, it's kind of interesting. So what I'm curious about is, is what have you found helps people who, let's say I am feeling lonely. I love your kind of, you know, a little bit of this CBT's thinking that you sprinkled in about focusing on behaviors and in the fear of rejection and stuff like that. So, I mean, what have you found helps people, right? Because I am afraid that I'm going to get rejected. I am afraid that, you know, if I'm vulnerable, something negative will happen.

How do people actually overcome that? Yeah. Metaphors are a great trick. And I always talk about the ladder, Dr. Kay. So the idea of like you're at the bottom of the ladder right now. You feel like shit. You're depressed as hell. You're completely disconnected from everyone.

and you're more afraid of taking another step up the ladder and another step up the ladder. And I ask them, I go, why is that so scary? And they say, I might fall. And I go, but you're at the bottom. You're currently at the bottom. So like, surely the possibility of climbing and just returning to where you are, of putting yourself out there. and like the idea that the rejection is greater than the isolation and loneliness and pain, you know, intra-psychic pain that you're feeling right now, that just doesn't stack up for me.

You have nothing right now. There is a potential for great connection. There's also the potential for some rejection, but it's like that doesn't feel more painful to me than your isolated reality. And so I just try to flip it on its head. And that notion of what does rejection actually mean? That's perception versus reality. Someone being like, it's like, hey man, can we catch up tomorrow for lunch? That's like you asking for a lifeline.

You're not saying, I'm suffering. You're not saying anything. And he says, sorry, man, I'm really busy. Like, you can internalize that as, oh, I'm never doing that again. I put myself out there and he threw it back in my face rather than going, oh, wait a second. Maybe he's just had a kid or his work is actually chaos and I could actually try again in a week and see what happens. Women, when you witness this was women, they'll often take that and they'll go, okay, no problems. And they'll try again in 48 hours because it's coded.

It's socializes. Like, you do this. This is necessary. This is healthy. And I need it. It's literally a lifeline for me. Guys go, I'm going to do this once. And this happens with therapy all the time.

time. I am going to call the practice manager. I'm going to try and book in. And if he can't see me within the next two weeks, I've tried and I'm never doing that again. It's the same thing with friends. It's like, it's this one shot situation, which is like, I'm going to put all my vulnerability on the table. I'm going to say, let's go for lunch. And then if he says, no, I tried it. I can never do that in any situation again. So I'm actually trying to like increase the value of you know, Prof G always talks about this, this idea of like, why is no one is asking anyone out. Like no one is putting themselves out there because that fear of rejection is so strong. I like to think that it's like we need to be pumping the positive of attempting these things,

of putting yourself out there and the great social benefit that comes for that, the sense of value and like leaning into that authenticity. I want to ask someone out. I want to go for lunch with my mate. I want to do these things, leaning into that, even if it doesn't go according to plan. Like, that's kind of what my member is all about. Look like an idiot. Do the thing that works.

Do the thing that's good for you, even if it hurts. Like, that's what we need to be doing more of. Yeah, I really like a lot of what you're saying. I mean, I have, I'm going to embody my patience for a moment and sort of like, you know, I'm at the bottom of the rung. What do I have to lose? well, I could end up at the bottom of the rung, plus I have one additional rejection, which hurts. Yeah, yeah.

Right? So I've heard of the fall, and then I end up here anyway. My brain's broken. Yeah, so it's like, and right. So, and I'm not, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Like, I totally. I get that. I'm with you 100%.

Like my clients give that response all the time. But it's like, it's like, because you are depressed or anxious, you are overblowing the chance of rejection and etc. Yeah, and then the cognitive bias and I see a lot of, you know, helping people with distress tolerance. I think that's huge. And sort of, I think what's really cool, I'm sort of piecing this together a little bit about Movember is even if you look silly in a mustache, one of the healthiest things

that you can do is willingly do something that makes you, it's not even that you look silly, it's that you feel silly. But willingly doing that for 30, days, having an excuse to do that and being able to wake up every day and realize that, oh, looking silly does not mean that everything falls apart. Yeah. And find your other 10 friends that you can look dumb with and go to the pub together and hang out and talk about whatever's happening.

And then it's, you know, in numbers. Safety in numbers. Yeah. And I think that the social connection around Movember is phenomenal. And so it's really cool that you all do that. I'm going to curious, anything that I have one or two other things that you sort of mention that I'd like to go to,

but anything that you want to pick up or thread that you want to pick up on or talk about before I kind of keep going because I want to shift gears just for a second. But I want to get you. Let's shift. Yeah. So one of the things that you talked about

is that, you know, people have a lot of, you kind of talked about this door handle problem, right? of like all of these expectations and people don't quite know how to live up to these expectations. You have these influencers that are kind of giving us this idea of certainty, which such eye-opening insight of like, okay, in a world of uncertainty, this person is offering you three simple steps. And if you check these things, everything is going to be great. Makes so much sense. What are you seeing how, so there's a lot of pressure on men to be something, right?

Be a provider, be a protector, be manly, whatever. So how do you help people navigate through the pressures that people are facing now? Yeah. So it's really interesting this idea of like where the pressure comes from. I try to always go back to like who taught this to you. And I do this with therapists as well because, you know, we're not necessarily evolved human beings. We have our own ideas of gender and masculinity as well. and we bring that into the room and then it interacts with our clients and it gets messy very often.

But this idea of like, where did you learn this stuff? Where did you learn this stuff? Do you believe it to be true? Does it matter to you and what impact is it having on you? Like I always use the metaphor of a backpack, which is that you're walking through life and you're four years old and you start crying and the dad says, pardon up, a brick goes in your backpack. you're seven and you know something takes place and someone says boys don't do that another brick comes in you're 15 you ask a girl out she says whatever you know you get rejected you get another back another brick in your backpack and you get to 25 and you're in therapy with

me and you've got all of these bricks that you didn't put in there that are these pressures literally weighing you down and the way that we like to think of it at Movember is that these bricks can actually be used to build something. They can be used to build a sense of like the house of manhood that you want, that you want to craft. You can put them in a certain order. You can decide which angles they're at. But most people just walk around with this thing weighing them down that is of no benefit to them, that they don't know why or how they're carrying them on a day-to-day basis and it's actually entirely dismantling their mental health and well-being. And so when it comes to this idea of how we can reduce pressure, I think that women do a lot

of this work of like understanding, like women know way more about masculinity than men do. Because we're often stuck in our own subjective. I'm like, this is what it means to be a man. And women are like feeling the ramifications, the ripples, the waves of masculinity in the their lives. And so they have an objective view of how men interact with one another, etc. So I think that guys, it'd be so great if we can get more and more guys going, what is, what is my backpack? What, what am I carrying? Where does it come from? And why am I buying into this pressure? You know, I think, I think I love the best thing about young guys is their critical,

their criticality in many ways. It's like they love like myth busting shit. You know, I want to break this. I want to understand why this happens the way it does. Like, why is what's happening in crypto? What's happening in? Like, why can we not have that for our own cells? Why can we have that critical insight into what is this thing that I've been handed?

I actually don't buy it. I don't buy it. I think I've been played fundamentally. and it's not helping me. And it's not a matter of like talking down to people. It's a matter of like sitting alongside them and going, hey man, I've got a backpack. Like I'm about to have a son in eight weeks and I'm freaking out about the all of my

own like I'm a masculinity expert, but it's like what is this going to do for my own stuff? What have I inherited? What have I picked up that is going to mean that the way in which I father a young boy, like what what bricks do I want to give to him all of it's intergenerational man like it's it's this is a really ongoing idea of of what it means to be a man you're going to have a son in eight weeks this is a change table that I just built because I'm handy a f I'm pretty stoked about I'm yeah it's happening man it's happening how do you feel about that well I'm I'm I'm super

excited. I'm super excited. I want to shake up. I want to feel all the feels. I'm I'm just like I'm stoked about just like a totally new chapter that I have no idea what is about to happen. Yeah. So I don't think it's a new chapter. I think it's a new book. So when I was when I had my first kid, I was in residency and and you know my I was a little bit older than than was many, many of my peers. And so they would ask, you know, what's it, what's it like being a dad? And I was like, it's like being on call that never ends for the next, you know. Just the pageer is just going. Right. So like on call, like sometimes the pager is quiet, but you've still got the pager. You could always get a page. And that's super exciting, man. I mean, hopefully you're, you know,

your hangups around masculinity don't get too much in the way of being a parent. But I'm interested, like what, what you reckon for the next, you know, bringing it. child into this world with AI and gaming and tech in the like where are we going to be when he's 12 what do you think my my son's world is going to is going to look like um you know so i i i know people are super hung up about or concerned about things like AI and stuff and i i do think that they're they are clearly having transformative effects um and i i think in some ways good and in some ways bad like AI on the one hand allows a single human being to be so much more productive. But I think the problem is that the higher up you are in the hierarchy, the more AI, I think, is helpful.

So, so, you know, if you're a programmer and you use AI and you can code four times as much, the people below you are not really benefiting much from AI. They're the ones actually getting eaten by AI. And what's really scary about AI, I see this a lot where there was a really interesting study out of MIT that showed that it reduces critical thinking, and I've absolutely seen that. I think there's a lot of students who are using AI to write essays.

I think what they don't quite grasp is that even if you use a bunch of AI to write essays, what is your value in the workplace? It's like zero because you haven't learned anything. So I think the world is changing and it's a scary place and we're not quite sure what things are going to look like when your kid is 12. But I also think that my experience with my kids is that that doesn't change the fundamentals of parenting. I was really surprised by how little being a psychiatrist prepared me for being a parent. And it's really just this evolutionary millions of years old.

kind of thing and your kid is still going to be a 12 year old. I think there are certainly challenges to parenting and stuff like that that are new and difficult and stuff like that. But I think at the end of the day, kids are kids and we're parents and then I think that some of those fundamentals really don't change, but the world is certainly getting scarier. We absolutely need. And what do you reckon about about, are you like, you know, the CEO of Bite Dance and Zuckerberg doesn't let, you know, their kids touch the apps. Are you, where do you sit on gaming with your kids? Oh, I mean, I game with my kids because it's a blast.

So, so, I mean, we started playing D&D about a year ago. That was awesome. It quickly became our favorite activity. We play video games together like Mario Kart and stuff like that. So, so my stance is the world that my children are going to inherit will have, addictive technology and 10 years from now it's going to be more addictive not less addictive and so I'm sort of of the mind of teach people how to swim instead to keep them out of the ocean digital literacy yeah yeah and I think it's

working you're also creating like bonding connective tissue with them so that it's like it's a shared activity absolutely right and you need to do that so so it's a great observation because if you do not develop a relationship if you do not help your kids develop the right relationship with technology, right? So what I'm trying to do to use your metaphor is I'm giving them bricks and I'm showing them how to build a particular kind of house as opposed to they just develop it. And that's what's happening right now is people, that's what happened with me is I developed an addictive relationship with technology before I realized what was going on. I was adding bricks to my backpack without really understanding it. We get shaped by this stuff.

So some amount of intentional shaping I think is really good, which is, it's so interesting because I wrote a book about it, and that's why I wrote that book, because this was the challenge that I think is the most important for our generation, is like, how do you raise your kids to have a healthy relationship with technology? And I know a lot of people are like, keep them away from it because it's harmful, but then what happens? So I think this is the unique thing. I think we're trying at Movember because, you know, most research institutes especially, so we've got a research and policy and, you know, think tank. on the side where our fundraising dollars go. And what we're really trying to do is say, we're not going to take this, like throw out the baby with the bathwater, like everything needs to be banned. You know, we're about to walk into a social media ban in Australia, December 12th,

under 16 year olds. Like, it's all being turned off. And I just think we need to have more of a nuanced understanding of how we can show up in young people's lives and talk about the health and the harms, understand what bricks we can give to them rather than them, being given them on behalf of various corporate entities and like create the world that you want them to be in with this technology there. Because if you turn off the tap for under 16 year olds, they hit 16, the tap is turned on and it's like a hose in the mouth. Like that just doesn't, it doesn't work as a model, I think in many ways in the same way

that, you know, this idea that, you know, there is gaming addiction, of course, but we're not going to say, sorry, we're getting rid of everything. It's fundamentally bad as a concept, because that just is so at odds with what young men are telling us that it's a lifeline for lots of them. It's adaptive. It gives them a sense of connection, whatever it might be. And then it tips over. It tips over sometimes. And it's like if we can increase their insight into when the tip is, when it moves from health to harm, and it's the same thing with social media and, you know, Manusphere stuff, it's innocuous until it's not. And it's, it's building that. It's capacity, that muscle for guys to go, actually, I'm in control here.

Yeah. So how do you, so it sounds like y'all are doing, I've got like two questions and I know we don't have too much time left, but my first question is, you know, how do you all do that? So I know that you all have done a lot of work on sort of like this Goldilock zone of technology use, right? Where it's like, how do you tip over? So I'd love to hear a little bit about what y'all have learned on like, where is that threshold. And the second thing that I'm curious about, you've talked about a lot of different

stuff that y'all do. Your organization has been around for 22 years. And so can you tell us a little bit, like if I were to donate $100 to November today, where would that money go? And what kind of stuff do all do you all do? So yeah, the Goldilocks. I'm very proud of this term. This idea is not too hot, not too cold, you know, just right. Dr. Dylan Paulus, who's an incredible researcher and gamer himself, is leading this work. It's going to be a longitudinal study, like linking objective in-game behavioural data to play as real mental health outcomes over like 16 to 18 months. So we will go, all right, here are your digital habits. Here is what's happening. On this week, you played this amount with this many people and this is how you were feeling versus in a month's time,

you played double as long and this is where the tip happened and you started throwing remotes at screens. That is super cool. Various things happen. And so where does the adaptive and maladaptive side of things take place? Because no one is full stop, I like to think, sitting in maladaptive. There is obviously extreme addiction that happens. But even there, they're getting a bit of that, even if it's the first 15 minutes, it's good for

them until it's not. And so we really want to, if you're going to try and regulate something, you need to want to understand like where that tips. So we're doing qualitative interviews at the moment where young guys are giving us such rich insights into, you know, that idea that it provides them connection and mastery and belonging and then they lose balance. They lose sight of where they are and what they're doing and it becomes isolating and compulsive. And we just really want to understand like what are those triggers. So we're not there yet and you know, the more people that can that can take part. I think we've got a link to sign up to be a part of this ongoing

study where we sit, you know, with gamers, create, you know, studies and research and outcomes for gamers. That's, that's really essential for us. So that's, that's an example of one of our, you know, pieces of work. We're now also working with Alcat, who, you know, created this game, Roo Valley that's about to be released, which is like a literal in, you know, a hero's journey in therapy. And it's looking at like a young guy actually going through this whole journey. And we've, you know, written all the scripts with them and been a part of that. So we, and we're going to build a study there as well to see if it changes help-seeking attitudes.

So we're trying to take like science into the real world. It's like translational evidence building. And, you know, that's, that's fundamental. So, you know, 100 bucks is going to go towards, you know, funding our ability to actually do some of those studies to be able to work. with partners and fund that work. But then we also do really, you know, on the ground. Yeah, I'd love to hear about that too. Like can you talk a little bit? For sure, for sure. So we kind of see ourselves as the big brother of the men's health,

you know, world. We're not there. We don't have thousands of stuff facilitating programs, but we partner with community orgs who do that. So this is where that online, offline nexus kind of sits. And we've worked with these heaps of groups in the states, in like sporting communities, for instance, working with, you know, young black kids in in Chicago at like a community sports center or in Hawaii. We work at a bike shop and trying to create these little nodes where we're going to build mental resilience through like programming where you've got a good role model who's in community, who's passing down a type of, you know, group based work with those with those young guys. And then they, you know, move into their nodes and networks as well. So there's, you know, that's where those thousand plus programs that we've been able to fund. We're trying to, we're so grateful to get funds from community that we want to make sure that it goes back out.

So we've got this research and policy, you know, up here where we're trying to actually break through with some really unique insights. Like when it comes to gamers, everyone's just making shit up. The research that exists at the moment, you know, is just a lot of this top down stuff. We are really trying to change the game by getting in on the ground. with them. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I totally see that. I mean, I, I, I think it's, you know, one of the most shocking things that I remember realizing was like, everyone's doing research on video game addiction. But like, the fundamental questionnaire that assesses addiction does not assess any positive impacts

at all. No. Right. And, and, and so it's sort of like, and there's just so much stuff that, that doesn't feel translational or on the ground. Um, where I think it's fascinating if you guys are doing a study that actually, you know, measures, because I get this question a lot, probably the most common question I get from parents is, how many hours is okay? And I always ask it, I answer in sort of this like kind of waffly sort of way, which is what I believe, but it's not a certain number of hours. It's about finding the threshold of like what's harmful and what isn't and things like that.

And so it's so interesting that someone, because I've never seen a study. I very rarely see studies on video game addiction or video games in general that are designed the way that you all are designing things. And I think it's a very, very high external validity, super cool study design. It's because we've got it. It's because we've got a gamer designing it. Yeah. So that's a it's a no-brainer.

Yeah. Yeah. And for people who don't know what external validity is, a lot of studies are done kind of like what Dr. Zach is saying. in kind of this academic ivory tower sort of format, and then they don't really translate over to the real world because it's so controlled. But some of the stuff that you're outside of the lab. Yeah.

Right. And then when you enter the real world, things kind of change. But thank you so much, Dr. Zach for being here. Dr. Zach Seidler, everybody, you know, check out what November is doing. Is there anyone, anywhere that you think that people should go if they want to learn more about November or the work that you all are doing? I think we've got a link up there to our level up page. That's all of our gaming and e-sports work.

Sign up. We want to hear your voice in our upcoming studies and programs. We want you to be a part of this. We can't build it without you. So come on board and, you know, grow mustaches, fundraised, do some weird and wacky shit and look a bit dumb because it's fun. I'm here for you. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Dr. Zach.

Take care. Thanks, Dr. Kay. All righty. Yeah, that's cool. I'm serious, y'all. I'm not just glazing on Dr. Zach. That's a legit, very cool study design. And if you all are familiar with research, hopefully you all, like, understand that. It's very cool. You know, most of the studies, if you look at stuff on video game addiction, they're going to be like questionnaire-based sort of things where we're just surveying people and sort of asking them. I also remember that one of our first coaching, who's now almost done with their PhD, I would hope, was designed, wanted to do a study, and hopefully they're doing something like this, where they were trying to get a tool that you install. Okay, so this is a bit scary.

But, you know, a tool that you install on your PC that is tracking your gaming so that when we assess your mental health, it's basically like looking at your stuff and knowing how much you know how much you're playing and then the other thing that's interesting I don't know if you all caught this but there was one other detail oh yeah so it sounds like as part of their study they're also looking at the number of connections you have online I don't know if you all caught that or if I misheard that but it sounds like they're not just looking at the hours you're playing but like what is the variety of people that you play with which is incredibly fascinating

And I do wonder about that, right? So if you have one toxic Discord server that you hang out on, is that bad for your mental health? Or is it like if you're on four different Discord servers and you bounce around and play with different people that your mental health will be better? Really interesting stuff. I think those are the kinds of questions that I personally, like, am interested in knowing. Because if we're talking about, if I'm making a video about, you know, how to not play games, in a harmful way. Like, those are the kind...

Like, that's the kind of stuff that I want to know. I don't know how else to put it. It's like there's some, you know, study being done out of whatever, like Stanford or Harvard or whatever. They're like... But it's like, hey, is the number of discords that I'm in, is that important? You know? So I think it's super cool.

Great organization. Okay, so we're going to take a two-minute break, I think. And then I'm going to do a lecture on emotions. But I got to adjust the air conditioner or change the shirt. I'm going to grab something to drink. And yeah, then we're going to do a quick lecture. Chairstream, chat. All righty chat.

Chair stream has ended. I was thinking about doing a lecture for male mental health. And I was like, okay, should we do stuff on depression or anxiety or suicide or addiction or what. And I decided that what I really want to do is talk to you all today about emotional processing. So first thing is emotional processing is not like specific to men, right? So we all have brains, processing emotions is important for everybody. But when we sort of talk about like how men are raised and how men are socialized,

we sort of have this idea that men like they don't know how to express their emotion. They bottle up their emotions. They avoid emotions. Things like that. If we look at one of the reasons why men are probably more prone to addictions is because we use substances and behaviors to manage our emotions. And then the other thing is like, you know, I remember when I was training as a psychiatrist, people would talk about, you know, like it's really important to process your emotions. Like it's really important to process emotions. And all throughout my psychiatric training, I never had a class in like what is processing an emotion. Like literally, if I feel an emotion, what is the difference between it being processed and it not being processed? And if it's important to process it, how do you do that? Right? And there's a really common belief about processing emotions, which is a

is that talking about your emotions is processing them. But that's not technically true. And I've noticed that especially for men, simply talking about your emotions, and I've had plenty of patients who will come in and be like, or not even come in, but they'll ask me, right? So when I have friends who are like, oh, you know, I'm struggling with this thing,

I'm going through a divorce. And I'll be like, you should go see a therapist. And they're like, I don't understand how talking about my problems will actually help me. And my favorite example of this, this is when I sort of learned this, is when I was a third year resident,

I had a patient. And the patient would, I was learning how to do psychotherapy, okay? So I'd maybe done, I want to say about 200 hours of psychotherapy at that point, which is not very much. So I'd had five patients, and I'd worked with them for about a year.

And so in your third year of training, you get like a big influx of patients. I got 40 new patients. I was seeing them every week for psychotherapy. So I was really learning psychotherapy. And this guy would come in and he was depressed. So he would come in every week and he would talk about why he was depressed. He'd be like, you know, oh, this thing happened at work and like I got written up because I snapped at my coworkers.

My coworkers say I'm like hard to be around and that's why I'm depressed. And I'd be like, oh, man, that must be hard for you. How does that make you feel? Like I would say those two fucking things over and over and over again. How does that make me make you feel and that must be hard for you? And then next week he comes in and he's like, you know, oh, I went on this date and this girl didn't seem too interested in me. He was in his 40s, by the way. And so that's why I'm depressed.

And I'd be like, oh my God, that must be hard for you. How does that make you feel? And then he'd be like, oh, yeah, like this time, like this time what happened is I went to with my family for Christmas and my sister. was there and my brother-in-law was there and they're super successful and I'm kind of like not as successful and it was at this huge mention and everybody but me is rich and that's why I'm depressed and I'd be like how does that make you feel and that must be hard for you so we did this for about six to eight months and then one day the guy comes in and I'm like is this helping you and he's like what do you mean is it helping me isn't this what we're supposed to do isn't

therapy, me coming in and talking to you about why I'm depressed, like, isn't that what I'm supposed to do? And I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess that's what you're supposed to do. And then I was thinking to myself, like, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. And I even responded to I was like, look, I think so. And I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I sit here and I listen compassionately to you and then I ask you how you feel. But I was like, is it helping? And He's like, I don't know. I was like, okay, look, you showed up here six months ago. Are you any better than you were six months ago?

And he's like, well, not really. And I was like, so what the hell are we doing? And so it turns out that what we weren't really doing is processing emotions. Now, let's understand what that means, okay? So if you're a dude, chances are, and a lot of women fall into this category as well, your experience of emotion is as follows. So you're going through life and you have an emotion. And then like you feel something, right?

So man feels sad. And then sadness there for a little bit. And then man do something, make sadness go away. And then it's done. And then tomorrow rolls around. Hopefully I don't feel sad. But if I do feel sad, maybe man do something like drink alcohol, man play video game, man go to gym, man just have emotions.

and then our goal in life is to get rid of the emotion, right? When we feel bad, what are we supposed to do with it? We're supposed to make it go away, especially if it's a bad emotion. Even good emotions are things that we try to make go away, because if I feel like really, really in love, or if I feel an outpouring of love for my best friend who's also a dude, that is an emotion that I will run away from. if I feel like I'm falling in love, that can be scary, and I'm running away from it.

So for most men, emotions like they kind of arise and they sort of disappear after that. We try very hard to make them disappear. Now, the problem is that they don't actually disappear. Okay, that's the first problem. So if you look at, like, you know, studies on trauma in dissociation, what we discover is that just because you don't feel an emotion does not mean, that the emotion is not active in your brain. This is super scary, okay? So if you're a dude and you feel a lot of negative emotion, there's a really good chance that you will feel numb

afterward or you will try to make yourself feel numb. You'll drink alcohol, you'll play video games, you'll watch pornography, you'll even go to the gym and just start lifting iron, which is great. I love going to the gym for the sake of your mental health. It really does help, but that doesn't directly deal with the emotion in any way, right? We basically do stuff until our subjective experience of the emotion disappears, and frequently what we do is numbing. The problem is that when we numb our emotions, the part of our brain that is, if you guys want to see, actually, let me just show you all.

So this is a really cool paper. I don't want to know how this works. This is a cool paper called the Neurobiology of Emotion and Regulation and Post-Thrmatic Stress disorder, amygdala down regulation via via real-time fMRI neurofeedback. Okay, I just realized I said a bunch of words that you. Let me explain what this is. So this is the neurobiology. So we're going to understand not from a psychological perspective, but from a brain perspective,

what happens with emotions, what happens with this part of our brain called the amygdala in PTSD, okay? And they're looking at a particular intervention, which is neurofeedback. That's not so what we're super interested in. Let me just find. Wrong part of the brain. Wrong part of the brain. Right part of the brain.

Here we go. So enhanced activation in emotion regulation regions during amygdala down regulation with negative correlations and PTSD symptoms. I'm going to explain this, y'all. Don't worry about it. Okay. So basically we have these parts of our brain,

the frontal lobes. This is left dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, that's the area that's highlighted here. Right dorsomedial prefrontal cortex. That's the, actually, this should be backwards. This is interesting. This is not the right view of the brain, but whatever. And then basically the way that these parts of the brain suppress the activity of the amygdala. Okay. So the amygdala, we got to do a little bit of neuroscience. Let me actually just do this. Let's do this. Let's understand. Okay. So here's what happens in brain. So this is what's really wild. Okay, when we have emotions, we have this part of our brain

called the amygdala. Okay? I will explain. This is where we feel fear, anxiety. This is our survival center of the brain. And then we also have this thing called the limbic system. Now, this is important to understand. Actually, it's not, but I'm going to explain it. anyway, because I like it. So in our brain, we have two kinds of things. We have circuits, which is connections from different anatomical parts of the brain, different chunks of the brain that then connect to each other. So the amygdala will connect to a couple of other regions, and that forms the limbic system. The limbic system is our emotional circuit. Okay? So this is where we experience emotions. Now, here's why emotional processes.

is important. The amygdala and the limbic system are very, very close to this part of our brain called the hippocampus. The hippocampus is where we have learning and memory. Okay. So here's the problem. When we have an emotion, it's very tightly connected to our learning and memory. So if you look at the most powerful things that you learn from, emotions are at the top of the list. So I'll give you all a simple example. I don't know if you guys have ever been in a situation where you rage, you uninstall a video game and you're like, I'm never playing this video game again. I'm so angry.

This video game is a waste of time. I'm uninstalling. Right? So you're engaging in a behavior. You've learned that this video game really messes you up. So you're never going to do it again. Or you have a negative interaction with someone on the internet or your ex or whatever, your parents and you're like, I'm never going to do that again.

Or you do something like you go to the gym, you have an embarrassing experience at the gym, you have a negative experience in your therapy intake, something hurts. And you vow to yourself, I'm never going to do it again. So our behavior is heavily shaped. And you can say that you learned, right? This is like, where is this motivation coming from? It's because you learned that this is a bad experience. You have a negative emotion,

and so you learn a lot from your negative experiences. The really scary thing is when we numb our emotions, this circuit does not shut off. In fact, the opposite. When we numb our emotions, just because we have the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex that's going and suppressing this, this circuit is still active.

So if you look at your life, okay, this is what's really scary. See, most men that I work with struggle with getting themselves to do something. So if you look at what most men struggle with, like they live lives of avoidance. Oh, I don't want to do this because it, you know, I have to try to get myself to do this. I have to get myself to ask this person out because I'm afraid of rejection.

I have to get myself to go to the gym because I don't feel like going to the gym. So this is why dudes are obsessed, right? So if you look at the podcast bro circuit, the podcast bro circuit, which I love, right? I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Men are trying to help other dudes. okay, it's all about building habits and building willpower. And like, how do you, if I build habits, then it's easy, right?

If I build willpower, then I can overcome my underlying tendencies. But here's the key thing that I want you all to think about. Where did those tendencies come from in the first place? Why is it that my default programming is to behave in a particular way? Why is my default programming to play video games? Why is my default programming to avoid certain situations, avoid certain groups of people? So I think avoidance is huge here, right? So I need willpower to overcome this avoidance.

And we get distracted by dopamine. We get distracted by addiction. Oh, it's all dopamine in the brain, dopamine in the brain. And sure, when we're talking about social media and video games, that's a huge part of it. Okay? But the key thing to remember is that the programming that you have in your brain is most powerful. powerfully determined by your emotions. So we understand this in cases of something like PTSD.

Right? So what is PTSD? Let's understand this. So once I have, let's say I get bitten by a dog. Okay? What happens? So when I get bitten by a dog, my amygdala, my survival center lights up, has a ton of blood flow there.

I feel an immense amount of fear and anxiety. And what happens the next time I see it? a dog. How have I been programmed? The next time I see a dog, I feel fear. The fear reactivates. I'm not even being bitten. It is simply the exposure, me seeing a dog or even hearing a dog bark or smelling a dog. I walk over to my friend's place and I see that there's a bowl of dog food. And then suddenly my heart is, my heart is pounding. I'm like, oh my God, I start sweating. I start getting scared. Like, what the fuck? Am I afraid of bowls of dog food now? Right. So I want you all to appreciate the neuroscientific mechanism here, which is that when I experience a negative

emotion, it changes my hippocampus and I learn from it. So the basic problem that most men have is that since we are numbing ourselves from our emotions, our emotions are programmed. us in ways that are maladaptive. And then once I have all of this maladaptive programming of I'm avoiding this, I'm running away from that, I'm not motivated, then I try to use all of these compensatory mechanisms like willpower and habit and taking magnesium at night and using all these supplements. I'm trying to do all this stuff to overcome myself. So here's what I found as a psychiatrist. That is so hard. I've told you guys, I am lazy.

I'm still lazy. I've always be lazy. I will always be lazy. You don't need to work hard. You don't need to have willpower. I also have terrible habits. What I find is the most useful thing is to reprogram yourself. And once your default programming changes, then your life becomes way easier.

Imagine for a moment that if you did not feel avoidance for assets, for asking someone out on a date. If you did not feel avoidance for asking for a promotion, right? If you didn't have those negative emotions, imagine how free your life would be. Discipline and willpower and habit to overcome yourself. Oh my God, it's so much work. I hate that crap. Instead, why don't you just change the way that you perceive the world?

So easy. I know, it's crazy. It's not so easy. I'm going to show you all how. Does that make sense? Okay? So this is the key thing. So let's understand.

Okay? So when we experience a lot of negative emotion, it travels to our, it communicates with our hippocampus and it creates learnings. We come up with certain conclusions. And this is where if you look at people who are kind of red-pilled or black-pilled or in-cells or whatever, I'm just using those examples because they're their philosophies and ideologies that hopefully here on the internet we're familiar with. I'm not saying they're right or wrong or whatever.

I'm just saying like these people think in a particular way. And usually what I see, the number one thing that I see in people and dudes who are red-pilled is actually a history of a traumatic experience with women. That's the number one thing that makes people red-pilled. They have a negative emotional experience, which then they learn from. It's almost like a form of PTSD. It's not PTSD, but it uses the same trauma architecture. negative experience followed by learning, followed by those learnings will then shape our behavior.

So there are a couple of things that we have to understand. Emotional processing is when those emotions arise, we are not going to let them without our knowledge program us. That is literally what emotional processing is. It is when that emotion arises, we are going to metabolize that emotion and intentionally figured out how we're coding our brain. And the reason that this becomes so important for men is because we're not taught how to emotionally process. And since we're not taught how to emotionally process, we do not know how to program ourselves.

And since we don't know how to program ourselves, this is why the podcast bros love, habit, discipline, and willpower. Right? I don't know if this makes sense, but we are so concerned about overcoming our instinctual desires, what feels natural to us. That's why we're habits, willpower, discipline, because we need to overcome the stuff that's down here. And why is that so important for men, right?

Why are we the ones that are obsessed with this? Because if you know how to emotionally process, you don't need willpower or, I mean, you still do on some level. but like you need a lot less of it right so if i can alter the way that my emotional experiences program my brain my need for willpower to overcome that programming goes way down and that's what we want to teach all today okay so let me just make sure i'm not forgetting anything okay um this episode is brought to you by car max want to buy a car the easy way. Start at CarMax. Want to browse with confidence? Get pre-qualified with no impact on your credit

score and shop within your budget. From luxury to family rides, CarMax has options for almost every price range, including over 25,000 cars under $25,000. Want to get started? Head to CarMax.com for details and get pre-qualified today. Want to drive CarMax. Okay, so let's explain a couple of principles, okay? So the next thing that we need to understand is that when we numb our emotions, they don't go away. So there's this sort of idea that men will bottle up their emotions and then their emotions will explode. So like, I don't know if this makes sense. From like a physics perspective, right, there has to be some mechanism for that. So this idea of bottling up and like increasing the pressure inside you, there must be some scientific quantifiable mechanism

that explains this. So generally speaking, what happens when we experience a large amount of emotion and we numb it, it goes dormant. It does not disappear, right? And that's how we can bottle things up and eventually explode, because that presumes that, okay, I have 10 units of emotion down here, and then I numb it and then like, man feel emotion, man, drink alcohol, be hung over the next day. But then the next day that my ex texts me and is like, hey, I was wondering if you wanted to hang out sometime. And then all this rage arises. Right. So then what happens is I have 10 units of emotion down here. And the next day I get 10 units of anger and then it starts piling up. So even though I feel angry now and then the anger goes away, like let's say 15

minutes later, 30 minutes later, the anger is gone. It's not really gone. It is dormant. And so the next day rolls around, I add more to it, I add more to it, and I add more to it. And this is how men sort of, their experiences seem to be like, I'm kind of like accruing too much emotion. I have certain coping mechanisms that I'm trying to keep it intact, but I'm sort of losing this war. Even though on any given day, I am winning the battle, over time, I'm losing the war with my emotions. So it starts out that I used to be an 18 year old kid and I was happy in life and then this happened in college and then life became a little bit harder and then I got a little bit depressed

and I pushed through. I powered through. I got myself out of bed. I continued working hard. I went to my internship and then I graduated from college and then I started working and then I got a little bit more depressed and things became a little bit more harder. But then I started doing this and then I started doing this and the emotions just kind of pile up. And this is what's really insane is that people will look at like, you know, privileged successful men who are suicidal.

And they'll ask, well, how on earth can you be suicidal? You're privileged men, you have so much going for you. You're successful. You have money. You know, society, it's a patriarchy. So you're like, good for you. And then this guy is suicidal. And that's because he's been accruing these emotions.

And we're really good at suppressing them. We're really good at coping with them. We're really good at just shoving them way down. performing. So emotions pile up unless they are processed. Okay. Second thing to understand, emotions are sources of information and emotions are sources of motivation. This is fundamentally why we have evolved emotions, right? So I want you all to think about this for a second. I appreciate this. there's a good chance that even things like Komodo dragons will experience fear and anxiety, right? Animals have amygdalas too.

It's the survival center of the brain. These are really primitive emotions that exist for a reason. And so one of the key things I want you all to think about it for a moment, right? So if I'm like, let's say I'm an antelope and I'm a newborn antelope, and I go over to a water, hole and I start to drink water. And then a crocodile leaps out of the water, doesn't leap, it swims to the surface, its mouth opens up, it jumps back. Thankfully, I have instincts.

So I jump back. Crocodile misses. And then I want you to imagine what happens in the antelope's brain. The antelope feels a huge amount of fear. Amygdala goes over to the hippocampus and is like, hey, we got to learn our lesson. And then in this case, in the case of the antelope, the antelope, the antelope, The antelope has no reason to emotionally process, because it wants that fear to have that learning.

There's no, like, maladaptive, complex social society where people make fun of the antelope because it's wearing these shoes instead of those shoes, or it got its haircut in a particular way, or it has a silly mustache. None of that exists in the antelope society. So for the antelope, the amygdala causing it to learn is fantastic. In our complex society, things become a little bit trickier, not a little bit trickier, a lot trickier. So we have to understand one really important thing, and this is going to help us process emotions, is we have to understand that emotions are very quick ways of getting information.

So our brain processes a ton of information that we are not aware of. Our brain is doing all kinds of calculations all the time that we're not consciously aware of. That's how the brain knows to remind you of things. So it's like you're sitting there and you're like driving home from work and you're like, oh, crap, I had to get milk. If you think about how is that possible? You forgot to get milk and then somehow your brain is reminding you, oh, you need to get milk. So your brain is processing a ton of information.

So my favorite example of this is like when we like, you know, sometimes I'll actually I'll give you all an example. So I recently started getting this is not my favorite example. This is just the one that's more relevant. So, you know, now when I walk around, I get recognized on the street. So there's this very specific thing. you fuckers know who you are. They'll kind of see me on the street.

They'll be like, wait, is that Dr. Kay? And so here's what happens. People will look at me. This is what it's like. The people look up and then they look away and then they do a double take like this. And then they look away. And then if they're with a group of people, the next thing that happens is they pull out their phones and they'll like show each other.

So when I see the sequence of the look, the look away and then the look back and then the look away because people are really respectful. We have an amazing community. Y'all are really nice and stuff. with my kids and stuff, you all won't bother me and I totally get it. But I know, I can tell. So my brain is processing this information. Right?

We're processing a lot of information, and it will make us feel certain ways. So anytime the first step to processing an emotion is when you feel an emotion, instead of just reacting to it, trying to overcome it, trying to numb it, ask yourself one question, which is, what is this emotion trying to tell me? So I had a patient once who was on the verge of a breakup. So in a relationship, not the healthiest, their significant other had started maybe texting like other dudes messaging guys. Some dude had slid into her Instagram DMs and he like wasn't quite sure.

So he started to have all these negative emotions about it. And so then his experience of it was like, I have to overcome these emotions. Like let me stop being a pussy. you know, I need to stop being a pussy and like, so you try to push them down. But those emotions are telling you something. If you're in an unhealthy relationship and you feel, actually, that's not right. If you're in a healthy relationship and you start to feel a lot of weird emotions, it's not that those emotions are right.

It's that those emotions are trying to tell you something. It is a primitive source of information. It is not truth by any means. But it is some source of information. So when you feel that emotion, you should ask yourself, what is this emotion trying to tell me? The second thing that emotions are really good at is motivation. So usually emotions will get us to do stuff.

If I'm angry at my teammate for feeding in the game, I am motivated to tell them to uninstall the game and then I'm going to disconnect myself. Right? They create motivation. If I am afraid of looking like an idiot, it will motivate me to stay at home. If I am afraid of rejection,

it will motivate me to not ask someone out on a date, not ask someone to hang out, whatever. So they're powerful sources of motivation. Now, here's the big mistake that people make. The problem with emotions is that they're not analytical. They're not intelligent. They don't use the reasoning parts of our brain. They just come up with certain ideas, and that's what we're going to do.

So if you look at a really good example of this is if you look at adrenaline, which is not an emotion, it's a hormone, right? Released by the adrenal cortices, triggered by things like anger, fear, and anxiety, also lost excitement. it alters our brain chemistry and causes us to think in black and white terms. So when you get angry at someone, you're not doing a sophisticated philosophical analysis. You jump to a conclusion. And so what most people experience, I don't know if this makes sense, is when you have an emotion, you feel like doing something.

And then your struggle is like to do that thing or not do that thing. So then you start engaging willpower. I don't want to give into the anger. I don't want to give it into the anger. I don't want to give into the anger. I got to control myself, control myself, control myself. This is the wrong thing to do. I feel angry.

So anytime we have an emotion, there is usually one thing that our brain wants us to do. And then we struggle with that. Instead, the right way to process an emotion is to ask yourself this first question. Okay, what is this emotion trying to tell me? And secondly, what is this emotion trying to get me to do? Now, here's the key thing. I don't know if this makes sense. There are other things that you can do.

Right? So once you ask yourself, what is this emotion trying to tell me? I feel like I got to give you all an example here. Okay, so if the emotion is telling me, so let's say I feel anxious, not anxious, I start to feel uncomfortable. That's not an emotion because my girlfriend is on her phone, and when I walk in, she puts it away. Okay? So what is this fear? I mean, what is this emotion? Right? So the first thing is

when you feel uncomfortable to ask yourself, what is the emotion? So I'm a little bit afraid. I'm worried. I feel insecure. There are all of these emotions. And these emotions are telling me things. Right? The worry is telling me, hey, pay attention, bro. And the worry is also going to think in black and white. I'm afraid she's cheating on me. So do you all see how there's a certain jump from here to here?

This is not necessarily true, but it's like a clue. It's like signaling something to you. And then here's the other tricky thing is since I have these two thoughts, I don't know if those are true or not. It motivates me to act. So what am I going to do? Drop an air tag in her purse. Boom. Got to be sure.

The bitch ain't cheating. Got to know. Look through her phone. So this is where like, this is not actually. emotional processing. This is just giving into your emotions. This is letting your emotions control you. And then we're like, oh my God, I should not do this. This is bad. So then what I'm going to use, do is take willpower, and I'm going to suppress this, and then I'm going to take alcohol, and I'm going to suppress this. Right? And this is like not, like, do you all see,

like, hopefully I don't have to explain this. This is not a good solution. Like, this is terrible. Because she could be cheating on you, bro. Right? And this is really funny. So McCluse is trying to be funny. Solution, don't date. That's funny, except it's not. Except when I have these feelings, it's going to go to my hippocampus.

I know you're trying to be funny. I love you guys. This is great. And then the solution is don't date. It's actually a really great example of another point that I forgot to mention. So when we don't process our emotions, we end up like what I'm about to show y'all, which is date and don't date. We end up conflicted. So there are a lot of dudes who struggle with follow-through.

And let's understand what follow-through actually is. It's going to blow your mind. So people are like, oh, I struggle with follow-through. I'm going to listen to Podcast Bro. I'm going to get disciplined. That's not how you fix follow-through. I'm going to show you all a cool trick about what follow-through really is. So let's say I have this experience.

We'll come back to the experience in a second. And I've decided to not date. Okay? Because don't date means that I am moving away from rejection. I'm moving away from betrayal. Right? So on one end, actually I got to redraw this. So on one end, I have rejection and on one end I have betrayal. Okay, so this is one end. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to move away from these things by don't date. But then I have a problem. Because if I don't date, I feel lonely. I feel isolated. I feel jealous. I feel more.

And so what do I do to get away from these things? I date. Running away from those emotions. I'm tired of being lonely. I'm tired of being isolated. And then when I date, what happens? I get taken advantage of. It sucks.

It hurts. There's all these dormant emotions. So now that I've been cheated on once, the next time, since I haven't processed those emotions. Oh my God, I have all of this fear and anger and resentment that is piled up. And I'm on my third date with someone and they're texting someone and they laugh. And then I ask them, hey, are you dating other people? And they're like, yeah, aren't you dating other people?

Like, we've been on three dates. Do you want to have the conversation about being exclusive? I'm happy to talk about it. But the moment that they say, yes, they're dating other people. people and they're like, hey, do you want to have a conversation to talk about it? No, no, no. All this dormant emotion comes erupting out, erupting out. And I'm like, fuck you. I'm out. I'm done. Do you all see that? It's like not technically a betrayal, but it sure as hell feels like a rejection. And then you've run away from that emotion. Now you're like, oh, fuck, man, don't date ever again.

So here's what happens. Here's why follow through is really hard. Because here I am in the middle. Okay? And if I'm in the middle and I move towards don't date, then isolation arises. This negative emotion arises. So the more that I move in one direction, the more the isolation goes up. So then instead of sticking with it, because then I feel more isolated and more lonely, I'm going to move this way towards date. And the more I move in this direction, rejection, fear, betrayal arises. So now these go up. And so then I go over here.

So following through doesn't work. The reason we don't follow through is because as we move in a direction, our emotional pain actually increases. So we run away from that because that's what you're supposed to do. It's not like, like it's common sense, right? This isn't dumb or stupid or any weakness or low willpower. If there's betrayal, rejection, and fear in a particular direction, we're going to move away from that direction.

And if there's isolation and loneliness in a particular direction, we're going to move away from that direction, right? And the problem here is that we're not processing emotions. We're not managing those emotions in the right way. And so if you struggle with follow-through, if you struggle with motivation, if you struggle with all, I don't know what else, right, all kinds of stuff. Here's the key thing. It's not, if you struggle with follow-through, if you struggle with overcoming your programming, emotional processing is the answer. So let's talk about what emotional processing is.

So remember that when we feel emotion, man feel emotion. Man, no like emotion, feeling hurt bad. No like feel bad. So we numb. And when we numb it, it piles up. And then something else happens and we pile it up. Something else happens and we pile it up. The time that I felt this the most is when I was failing out of college playing video games,

I would have more shame. I was like failing one class and I was like, well, fuck it. If I'm failing one class, that's the first F. I feel ashamed. I feel ashamed. How did I manage that shame? By playing more video games. By skipping more classes.

I'm going to ignore all the classes I'm failing. I don't know if you guys have ever done this. But, you know, one of the most liberating things to do is to fail the first time. Because now that you fucked up, you might as well fuck up more. Right? So it's so interesting, but so many of my patients, when they relapse. So this is back when I was doing a bunch of addiction psychiatry, okay? So I noticed something interesting, which is that when my patients relapsed, they would go on a bender.

So it's not that they would like, oh, my God, I screwed up for one day. I had, I got drunk, I'm hung over the next day, I started drinking on Friday. I'd been sober for 181 days and I started drinking. and then I woke up on Saturday and I was hung over. Dr. Kay, I'm going to call you. Hey, I'm sorry. I relapsed. I need help.

Can you please help me? And then we get back onto it. I'm like, yeah, man, like, go ahead and like, what are you going to do? What's your plan? We've talked about contingency planning. Come see me on Monday morning. Do you need to have a call? You want me to check in with you later today?

You want me to check in with you tomorrow? That's never happened. And I'd ask him about it, right? So I had to start to talk to my patients and I was like, you know, I kind of ask him. You can't ask it in this way because it sounds so blaming. Why didn't you call me? And I was like, bro, if you notice that every time you relapse, you go on a bender. And when we really got into it, right?

So we've got a strong therapeutic relation. I'm like, what's going on there? It's like, well, I fucked up. So I might as well have a good time. It's like, yeah. Like, let's go, son. Let's go hard. I'm going to be sober at some point anyway.

I'm going to have to talk to Dr. Kay. So I might as well fucking enjoy myself this weekend and go hard, son. I fucked it up. So I might as well enjoy it before Monday morning. That's the truth of it. It's insane. You guys know what I mean? When you screw, yeah, it's fun being a degenerate.

It is so fun being a degenerate. We do not talk about that enough. Okay? Anyway, that has, I don't know what that has to do with emotional processing, but it came up. It's related to this picture in some way. Okay? This is why we pile up negative. Yeah, like, let's go hard.

And when we go hard, they pile up. I guess that's what it's about. So it piles up and piles up and piles up. So now the question is, how do we prevent it from piling up? And the answer is emotional processing. Emotional processing is what allows us to experience emotions without letting them pile up. And remember that as these things pile up, this is creating learning. This is creating programming.

Right? And this learning and programming is then going to be what we have to overcome with willpower later. So this is the cycle. How do you make your life easy? So my goal as a psychiatrist for myself and for my patients is not to make them happy, not to make them successful, not to do any of that stuff. It's to make their life easy. It's to make their life free. It is to make their life unburdened.

It doesn't have to be so hard. That's why I learn things the way that I learn them. I want to understand all of these mechanisms so that I can know how it works. And if I can teach people how it works, their life can be easy because you know what's going on under the hood. So how do you do that, emotional processing? Step number one, what is emotion trying to tell you? And acknowledge that. So notice what's happening.

You're paying attention to the motion. You're leaning into it. You're engaging with it. You are not numbing it. You're not adding it over here. You're actually telling it, hey, come out. Come out of there. Let it out.

Let's see. Like, what are you, what is it, boy? What is it, Timmy? Is Timmy stuck in the well? What is it, Lassie? Is Timmy stuck in the well? What is it, Lassie? Where are you barking?

Talk to it. Let it out. What is this emotion telling me? What is it that I'm afraid of? What is this that I'm feeling? I feel uncomfortable. Why do I feel uncomfortable? What is the discomfort telling me?

Really important. important, very vital information that your brain millions of years of evolution have evolved to give you this sixth sense. Do you guys understand how awesome emotions are? They're like fucking being psychic. You can make all of these cognitive analytical calculations, or you can have some psychic part of your brain that's like, hey, bro, these people are not to be trusted. And they're like, yeah, hey, you should come.

We have this awesome thing. You can come to our hotel for a weekend. We'll pay for your flights. And we've got this. All you have to do is sit through this one presentation. Everything is going to be free. It's going to be comp. We're going to give you the best room.

It's all free. All you got to do is sit through these presentations while you're here. And it's like, wow, analytically, that's amazing. Oh, my God. we get a free stay at this luxury hotel? What is it telling you? And then you have this psychic in this back part of your brain, in the amygdala, deep in your brain,

that's like, no, do not trust a loch. There's a trick. Right? So listen to it. Second thing, what is it motivating me to do? Okay? And as you ask yourself, it's not, and this is the mistake that a lot of people make,

is that they try to just overcome or give in to the emotion. So I'll give you all an example. So I had a patient who had a relationship that was on the verge of a breakup. I mentioned a little bit earlier. So they came to me and they're like, Dr. Kay, I don't know if I should break up with her or not. Right? It's like, I don't know if I should give in or do I not give in.

Do I give in or do I not give in? It's like binary. It's black or white thinking. That's what adrenaline does. That's what the amygdala does. But the whole point is that life is shades of gray. There are all kinds of options. It's not do or don't do.

There's all kinds of stuff in the middle. So ends up, they end up breaking up with their ex. I mean, they end up with their girlfriend. Girlfriend then texts them about two weeks later, and they're like, hey, I've really been thinking a lot about it. I'm so sorry. You know, like, I'm so sorry. Like, please take me back.

We had something really great. Like, so they come back and they're, you know, they feel, they're texting and they're, they're They're like, I'm so sorry for that I hurt you and you deserve better and I've really grown and like give us another chance. We had so much, you had so many great times and there's like, you know, a lot of potential for our relationship. And then this poor guy is conflicted, right? We talked about this. So now there's like, there's all kinds of emotions. There's like love and then there's anger.

There's like betrayal. And then there's like security. So this poor fucking guy is like, ping ponging between these two. Should I do it? Should I not do it? Should I not do it? Right?

So we're like, okay, what are all of these emotions telling you? What is the love telling you? What is the security telling you? Love is telling me that, hey, there was something really good here. The anger is telling me like, hey, this person has some really toxic habits. The feeling of betrayal is telling me that this person doesn't really care about me. It's giving me all of this information. So they decided to give it another shot.

Okay? But instead of just saying yes, we sit down. and we work through all of these emotions. And we figure out what this person is feeling. And it wasn't just taking them back. It was like a high EQ version of taking them back. It was articulating a lot of stuff. It was like, look, the stuff that you did was very hurtful to me.

Here is what I value our relationship for reasons, A, B, and C. Here are the things that I do not like. And I'm happy to give this a shot. but if these things that my negative emotions are worried about, if these things don't get better, because it's giving you a lot of information, right? If these things don't get better, then I'm not interested. I'm not, we're not going back to square. We're not going back to where we were. We're actually starting over. This is a new relationship. There's been a certain amount of hurt and betrayal. There's a lot of love. There's a lot of good stuff going on here, but there has been hurt or betrayal. So I'm willing to give this another shot. But here are my concerns. It's not conditions. It's not like, and these are things that I think are not super healthy. So if you look at things like ultimatums, I don't know if this is going to make sense.

I'm going to try to explain it. Ultimatums are usually the result of emotions gone wild. So when my emotions are out of control and I feel betrayed and afraid, I'm going to be like, you do this or else. That's not actually emotional processing. That's the emotions running the show. That is the emotions creating black and white thinking and dictating a particular course of action. And that's the beauty of emotional processing is that we don't have to go down that course of action.

We can use the information that emotions give us and we can lay out a more nuanced, a more logical, a healthier course of action, which is these are the things that I'm expecting from you. these are the things that I'm willing to do. So it's not take me back, yes. Right? Because that is a huge mistake. Will you take me back? Will you give it another chance?

And most human beings are like, I don't know if I should say no. Or I don't know if I should say yes. Both are wrong. It is yes, but it is no because. It's not just saying no and fuck them. Because even if you just say no, there's going to be some emotion there, right? So you want to think through that. You want to feel.

those emotions. You want to understand what they're telling you and what they're motivating you do. So he sort of added all this stuff to it. So he's like, look, this is the way that I feel. We can't start, we can't pick up back where we were. I'm willing to give it another shot because of this, this and this. Two weeks go by. So first week,

she's on her best behavior. And then he's like, so he comes in next week and I'm like, you know, how's the relationship going? And he's like, he's being super nice. And then I ask him, how does that make you feel? And he's like, it doesn't make me feel good. And this is where, I don't know if this makes sense, but if you all have taken back

an X and you really shouldn't have and they're being X or nice, there's this voice in the back of your head that's like, hey, this feels fake, this feels forced. But now you've said yes, not a conditional yes, not a yes, but. And so then now you're conflicted between guilt because you said yes and you want to give it a shot and this warning sign that you have in the back of your head and you're ping ponging again. Not emotional processing. So we're listening to that voice. week two rolls around. She starts engaging in some of these bad behaviors that are a little bit disrespectful. So he just fucking breaks it off.

There's no conflict. He feels assured of himself. And he's like, hey, you know what? I don't think this is a good idea. She gets really upset. And he is fucking steal, son. She starts to cry. He actually doesn't even feel guilty because he felt that guilt.

He worked through it. He starts to feel a guilt a little bit. And he's like, what is the, oh, this is a dormant guilt. This is a guilt from the past. This relationship is not good for me. And then he has follow through. Because he's worked with his emotions. They're no longer enemies.

Even the anxiety when it comes up is not a problem. He's not trying to numb it. He's like, oh, the anxiety is telling me something. So the coolest thing, the fucking coolest thing is when you do this, this is the fun part. This is the really cool part. The hippocampus, the learning. So he is absolutely learning from this experience.

But instead of that learning being automatic, instead of that learning being subconscious, instead of that learning being the result of the amygdala, which he is numbing, but it's just over here doing its own thing, just doing its own thing, creating whatever learnings at once, inducing some degree of PTSD

that is going to cause this guy problems down in the future. He has worked with these emotions. He has, felt these things, and he is learning self-respect. He is learning how to trust his emotions. He's learning how to say, you know what? And it's not even, she's like, oh, please take me back, give me another chance. And he's like, you know, we had something great. And he's like, you know what? I don't want to. I'm not interested in a relationship with you. I'm not saying you're good. I'm not saying you're bad. Look, you're going through your shit. I'm going through

my shit. I'm just not interested in a relationship with you. Those are the words that he used. And that's why I remember the story. I was like, fuck yeah, man. Right? So he's centered. The follow through becomes easy. It's just, I'm not interested in a relationship with you. It's not that you're good. It's not that you're bad. And she's like, oh my God, give us another chance. And it's like, no, I mean, there's no guilt there. So all of those stored emotions have been worked through. They've been acknowledged. They've been accepted. And honestly, it's not that simple. It's a little more complicated. But the real crux of it is if you numb it, it goes dormant.

It piles up and it programs you. So bringing it to the surface, engaging it, asking it what it's trying to tell you, understanding what it's trying to motivate you to do. And it's not about listening to that solution. Right. So let emotions clue you into the problem. And once you understand what the problem is, use the higher order functions of our brain, our cerebral cortices, our analytical reasoning,

to come up with alternative answers to that problem. And those are the problems that you should, those are the solutions that you should use, right? Not the default solution, not the instinctive solution, not the emotional solution. And the cool thing is that as you acknowledge these emotions, as you make them become undormant, then these are like your dogs.

Right? Like, oh my God, is Timmy. he's stuck in the will, well. And then as his ex starts to create all kinds of problems, she starts crying, she just texting his friends. Like, he is fucking solid. Then the anger comes out. Right?

But then he's got a good relationship. So it's like, let the anger come. Let this dog protect me. Anger's not a bad thing. And then since he's worked through it, it doesn't go too far. And he's like, hey, this is completely out of line. So he sends a text to all of his friends. He's like, hey, thank you guys very much for, you know, being concerned about me and stuff

like this and sort of saying we had something great together. Truth is, she cheated on me, and I haven't really said that, but that's the reason that I'm not interested in a relationship with her. Then she gets pissed at him because, you know, he sort of spilled the beans and she's like, you're ruining this. And he's like, look, you know what? I'm just not interested in a relationship with you. You mentioned this crap and you brought these people in.

That's the end of it. And then he doesn't walk out of that scarred. If anything, he walks out of that more centered, more aware of what he wants. More, like now he knows what he's looking for, right? So I think this is the most fundamental skill that most men need to learn. And a lot of women can benefit from more explicit emotional processing. It's just the way that we're socialized. We're taught to numb these emotions.

And once we numb them, they start to run haywire in our brain and create all kinds of weird ideas and views and stuff like that. We don't need any of that. So practical tips please on how to work out emotions. These are the two things. There is more to it, but this is the way to start. Okay? If you guys want, this is a great paper.

So this is a paper called Emotional Processing Theory and Update. Theoretical conceptualization is a pathological anxiety. So this is a long paper, y'all. So this paper talks about emotional processing theory, modifying the pathological associations and fear structures. There's just a lot of stuff. Exposure therapy, how it will. works. It's a beautiful paper. Exposure therapy, natural recovery from trauma, fear structure of

social anxiety disorder. So this paper is a really good exploration of this, but it is like this paper is a two-hour lecture in and of itself. So what I was trying to do today is explain the basic concept and the first two tools, which is ask the emotion what the information is, and ask it what it's motivating you to do. Now, here's the thing that confuses people. This honestly will get you 50% of the way there. Maybe even more. So simply the lack of suppressing your emotions

prevents them from building up, prevents them from automatically programming you. And even when we do psychotherapy, so sometimes, you know, when we do interviews and stuff on this channel, which we've done less of, I think we'll start doing more of those again. We did one. Hopefully that'll see the light of day soon.

You know, you'll notice that there are moments where people have this like breakthrough, right? Where there's this well upwelling of negative emotion. They'll start crying and we'll have this like moment, right? And so the cool thing is that is processing. So simply coexisting with the emotion without suppressing it engages this really cool thing where then the amygdala will go to homeostasis, it'll actually stop the emotion on its own without it programming you.

So what we find for healing in something like trauma is once the emotion comes to the surface and we stop running away from it, that in and of itself will reprogram, will deprogram. That's actually sufficient. You don't have to lay it down in a particular way. If you do it the way that I said,

it'll help some, but actually just bringing it up to the surface is sufficient. So if you all remember, I started this with this story of this patient, who would come to my office and would, you know, basically talk about how he was sad all the time. But he would just talk about how he was sad. So he did something that was really interesting. He had this habitual way of talking about being sad. He would not feel sad and cry in the, in the, in the, in the, in the therapy room. And I did not have the expertise to figure out, okay, this is basically like a script.

It's a protective script against the emotions that are underneath. And the emotions that were underneath were anger and rage. So we started talking about that. What does it feel like to be fucking disrespected by your, family to go. So he also had this toxic relationship with a woman who was divorced and had a couple of kids. And so he started dating this woman and he was just totally into this woman. And she was great. And he loved her. I mean, he didn't love her, but he was infatuated with her. And part of what he liked about dating this woman, just to give you all a quick insight into this, was that she, when he was with her,

he was living the life that he always wanted to live. So she made actually a fair amount of money. They would go eat at nice restaurants. They would go stay in hotels. She had three kids and he would hang out with their kids. He started forming a relationship with her kids in a very positive way. He always wanted kids. And so on Christmas Day, he goes to her house to drop off gifts for all three of her kids.

It's snowing. This is in Boston. goes to her house to drop off gifts. She opens the door. He says, hey, I brought gifts for your kids. She takes the gifts. One of the kids sees him and runs out and gives him a hug. And she's like, excited that he's here.

So this woman that he's dating gives the gifts to her daughter and says, can you go put them under the tree? And when the daughter goes to put him under the tree, she says, thanks for coming and closes the fucking door in his face. That's what we talk about in therapy. The anger and rage of the guy was literally left out in the cold. Drives 45 minutes to her house to drop off kids. It doesn't even get invited in.

And that's the way that she treated him. But man, when she was with him, it was great. Anyway, that was also where I learned that the most toxic relationships are toxic, not because they're bad. The most toxic relationships are 100% perfect, 50% of the time. And that's why people stay in toxic relationships, because you never know which one you're going to get. And everything that he wants is on the other side of that door.

And half of the days she invites him in, and half of the days she doesn't. So the psychotherapy and the breakthrough is not about sadness, not about depression, not about, it's all about anger. Which thankfully, Sigman Freud taught us many years ago when he said, depression is anger turned down. against the self. Emotions. Let them out. Ask yourself, what is this trying to tell me? What is it trying to get me to do? Man, I love being a psychiatrist. This is fucking awesome.

I love this stuff. Oh, man, people's stories are amazing, dude. Life is so brutal. But like, so good. It's like, ah. I know it hurts, but like, that's why I love it is. is like, you know, you're with someone. And, like, they don't go through it alone. And, like, we're going to get through this, son. I mean, he's older than me. But it's like, we're going to get through this, bro. And, like, these are the stories, right?

And, like, this is what's really wild is, like, y'all think that y'all's stories are fucking ordinary. They're not. You guys have these moments. Like, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that you don't have moments that are clippable. We think that we don't have moments because we're spending all this time, you know, watching people.

on the internet and playing video games, but you all have those moments. You all have those moments where you sat down next to this person in class and you asked him for a pencil and they gave you the stink eye like you were a fucking, like fucking, I don't know, some quasi-modo who had left the basement. Right there are those moments. You all have them too. And then when we feel like a quasi-modo because we ask someone for a pencil and we go home and we play video games, we bury that.

And like life, there's no triumph without. brutality. And these emotions, these negative emotions, these feelings of rejection and whatever, don't just default to listening to them right away. Like, that's where triumph comes from. You can't have triumph without hardship. All right, y'all, I hope this helps. And it's not just about men, but it's like what I wanted to say for the men in the audience. And emotions are like really powerful things that we should get as our allies. We need to like level up that skill tree chat. One quick thought is that if you guys want more, so part of the reason I'm thinking about, I just had this thought where someone was like, if you guys want to go through this paper, that's the kind of thing that we do over on the membership side. And just to be completely transparent with y'all, that's because if I do a two-hour lecture, I mean, we can try it on the main channel.

But generally speaking, when we do two-hour lectures on the main channel to go deep into something that is not emotionally engaging, the performance sucks. and then it hurts our YouTube channel, which is why we don't do it over there. So memberships is all the stuff that is good that doesn't perform on the main channel, but we're willing to give it a shot, I think. I don't know where that's going to end up. So stay tuned.

And we do have a lot of stuff over on the membership side, like deep dives into emotions. And like, I don't know if I'll show you guys, actually, exactly what I mean. If you guys are like, oh, my God. Okay, so I'll tell you guys exactly what I'm doing right now. Now, when I say, so I have conflicting emotions right now. One is that I want to, I want to do this on the main channel, but there's a part of me that's like I'm tired of having the main channel not performing well.

So then I say, okay, so we've learned strategically that it belongs on memberships. But then I feel guilty when I say, hey, part two is on memberships because I kind of feel like, oh, I'm paywalling the good stuff. I'm not paywalling the good stuff. And so I feel like I have to justify it to y'all. That's the emotions that I'm feeling. but I want to show you all something. So when we do content on emotions on the main channel, this is the performance. So two years ago, 153K views.

Three years ago, 92K views, right? And this is what nobody knows about ADHD and sex, 564. That was fucking 12 days ago. Why modern men feel empty. 399, how to restart your life, 325. And this is like weeks ago. Right. So this is the unfortunate reality that we live in, which is that certain stuff just

doesn't perform on the main channel. And it's not like, oh, we're paywalling the good stuff. I think this lecture, hopefully, is one of the most helpful lectures that I will ever give on this channel. And it's just for the people who are willing to say, I think what it comes down to is the average audience member is not interested in a two-hour deep dive into processing emotions. And if you guys, and occasionally we do get stuff on the, on the, you know, that will actually move from memberships over to the main channel because it does seem like there's a lot of interest.

So, y'all should check out memberships. We have a lot of really great, more in-depth content there. and it's not like, it's more in depth. Is there a meditation to help process emotion? Absolutely. Well, when I say absolutely, we don't have any good scientific evidence that there is a particular meditation that helps the processing of emotion more. But I believe, and in my clinical experience, I will teach people Manipura Chakra

meditation. Manipura chakra is your navel chakra. So when we do things like when you breathe and you breathe, and you breathe into your belly and you exhale, you do an abdominal breath and you breathe out, that's the most basic form of Manipura chakra meditation. But you basically want to do naval chakra meditations. We go into a lot of detail in Dr. Kay's guide, but I'm sure there's stuff on YouTube too. I would, well, Laffy Bun, I'm pretty sure I've taught you Monipura chakra meditation.

I hope I have because I recognize you from the membership side. And so we have that stuff. We're building some other cool stuff. I unfortunately really have to go because I have to be somewhere in 40 minutes and it's about 30 minutes away. So I do not have the time today. But thank you guys very much for coming.

And good luck with your emotions, everybody. Thanks for joining us today. We're here to help you understand your mind and live a better life. If you enjoy the conversation, be sure to subscribe. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again,

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