HealthyGamerGG - Are Vtubers Authentic? | Interview with Ironmouse!

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Today Dr. K talks with Ironmouse, a Vtuber, about authenticity, wearing a mask, emotions taking control, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm going to do about it. What most people think about the doing is like changing the outside, right? So if I, if I feel lonely, what am I going to do about it? Like, I'm going to go get in shape and I'm going to make more money and then I'm going to like, you know, take all these classes so I know how to make small talk. And then like, I'm going to become like this awesome external human being. I'm going to fix all the problems on the outside so I can connect with other people. The weird thing is that in a weird way, like that's not an option for you, right? Like you can't fix fundamentally. Like, the the body that you've been given. And so in a weird way, I think that you've actually gone, like, internally. And so we hear a lot about these journeys where you kind of talk about, you know, being really upset with yourself, like learning to accept yourself and then sort of saying there is no answer, there is no reason. But I'm tired of being lonely and I'm tired of, like, being upset with myself and something has to change. Welcome Iron Mouse.

No. You have a tail. I do have a tail and I have wings. I could make them go away. Oh, that's cool. But whatever makes you feel comfortable. Okay. So let's start by, what do you want to, what would you like me to call you today?

What do you go by? Oh, you can call me Mouse. Okay, Mouse. Okay, Mouse. And thank you very much for speaking with us today, Mouse. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I am honored to be here.

Well, we're honored by your presence. No, it's just, it's just me. I'm nothing special. Well, I think the internet would disagree. Wow, okay. Thank you. So tell me a little bit, is there something in particular that you want to talk about today or anything that we can help you with? Oh, my God.

I don't even know. Cool. That's totally fine, because I have so many questions. Do you? Yeah. Okay. So can you tell me a little bit about how you decided to become a V-tuber? Well, I have, I think the main reason why I decided to become a V-tuber was, well, I decided that I wanted to stream because I was really lonely and I wanted to make friends.

and I did not feel comfortable being on camera because I have a lot of health problems. So I was very apprehensive about being a flesh tuber, as I call it. I just, I did not feel comfortable. I have a bit of a long history with not feeling comfortable with myself. So a friend of mine, a friend of mine actually suggested to me that they were like, oh, there's this program that you can use and you can be like a character, you can be an enemy girl. And at the time, I saw there was another retiper. Her name was Kizuna Ai. And she was like a really big thing. And I was like, wow, if I could do that, I would love to do that.

But I just figured it would be like it would cost a lot of money. But a friend of mine got me a program. And I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll try to start the streaming thing as an anime character. And I did. And it was a lot of fun. At first, I don't know. I just did it because I wanted to make friends. And I was just like really nervous to be on camera.

And here we are now. Yeah. So tell me, what was your experience? Help us understand how we got to where we are now and what we're, now is. So what was it like when you first started out? Well, well, you know, I, when I first started streaming, I did it because I wanted to make friends and I was very lonely because of my health issues. I never used to talk about my health issues before. I was always very nervous because I kind of like, to me, I wanted to be seen like a normal, a normal person. So,

I would never talk about it. And I just really wanted to be friends and talk to different people. And I didn't really think I was particularly interesting. But I kept on streaming and I started off very small. And it wasn't until the pandemic happened, but things started getting, things started picking up. And I started growing a bit more. now I have a wonderful community that supports me a lot and I feel I've never felt more myself than I have in my whole entire life as Iron Mouse. Yeah, that's so interesting. So can you tell me a little bit about what the pandemic was like?

You mentioned that things started to change a little bit during the pandemic? Well, I guess because I've always had to be kind of isolated because of my condition. but it because of the pandemic I had to be even more isolated than usual and my family had to stay home and I guess I don't know

it was just like a shift because there was so many more people on mine and I think at the time that's when like V-tubers started like really picking up and I started getting a lot more people watching me and it was it's been a really interesting turning point in my life because I finally was able to start, you know, making money streaming, which I never used to do. And I was able to afford a better medical care for myself.

And I've fully been improving in my health because of that. And it's thanks to my community. So I'm just very grateful. And, you know, I don't know. It's a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff has happened. And then it's kind of like, it kind of like happens so fast and it just feels like, ugh. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So I assume that you just moved and then the V-tuber moves with you? Yeah. It tracks my movement.

Like, okay. Exactly. Wow. Does it track your facial expressions? Yes. So if you make a- smiling right now. Can you make a sad face?

I'm curious with that. Oh, interesting. Okay. Thank you so much for demonstrating. that. So, mouse, there's a lot of different things that I'm curious about. And I'm wondering if, like, we could, you know, which of these you'd feel comfortable with or which ones sound interesting to you. There's a lot from your story that I think we could learn a lot about. So a lot of times people try to figure out who they are. So people will sort of say, like, you know, how do I determine, like, is this my true self or is this like me being conditioned?

how do I know what I want versus like what society wants? So there's a lot of stuff about identity and who we are. And so it's so interesting to hear you say that you feel more like yourself than you've ever felt before. And so I think that we sort of have at our disposal almost like an entirely new way of understanding or experiencing identity and whether what we can sort of learn from your experience. experience of your identity could like we could learn something that could benefit everyone. Yeah. So that's like one thing.

You know, you mentioned early that you were really lonely and kind of nervous and you wanted to make friends and stuff. And so I was a little bit curious about that and what your experience of streaming like that was like. You've also mentioned your health problems. And I just wanted to clarify whether you're comfortable talking a little bit about that in more detail. I know it's more medical information, but, and so those are kind of the three things that I'm sort of curious about.

Yeah, I don't mind touching upon that a little bit. You know, it's, I do get a little nervous talking about things, but I think I'll be okay. Sure. So, so, and because you also mentioned earlier that you used to be nervous talking about your health because you wanted to feel normal. And so I'm also a little bit curious about what about your health makes, made it hard for you to feel normal? earlier? Well, I was born with a genetic disease called CV-ID. It's a primary immune deficiency disease. My body doesn't make antibodies to fight against infection or bacteria or viruses. So I have to, I have to be apart from people a lot because I catch things very, very easily. And I've lived my

life getting sick a lot and because of that I developed a lung condition and I'm on a breathing breathing an oxygen concentrator and I'm on like uh I get so embarrassed talking about I have like a it's very embarrassing for me to talk about I just feel very like well so First of all, we don't have to talk about it if it embarrasses you, but I'm kind of curious. So can I just clarify a couple of things? So you said you have CV-ID, so that's common variable immunodeficiency? Yeah. Okay.

And what makes you embarrassed as you talk about that? Can you help me understand what makes that embarrassing for you? I think it's just, it's hard to say for me because I feel like my whole life I've had. to see people, you know, live their life normally. And to me, I always felt like an outsider, like looking at other people living their life. And I've always felt kind of like stuck. And I, you know, growing up and like becoming an adult, I noticed that a lot of people's experiences are way different than mine because due to my condition, I haven't really been able to live as much as a normal person.

So I feel like I can't really, like, connect with others that well. And it makes me feel, you know, kind of sad about, I feel kind of sad. But I also just feel really embarrassed because I feel like, I feel like society, like, places, like, this pressure on us that we have to be, we have to hit certain milestones and we have to be some type of. person and because of the fact that I have never hit those particular milestones and the fact that I'm not a like I like to say I'm not a normal human I've always felt like an alien I've always felt like not normal and uh when I talk to people I feel that like a lot and it just I feel kind of ashamed and I think it's just because of the pressures of society uh uh I've talked to other people that have, like, chronic illness as well, and they've shared a similar viewpoint to mine. So I, you know, it's, streaming has really, like, changed my life where I'm able to, I'm able to communicate with people more, and I feel like I've connected with so many people. And people talk to me to talk to me. And I feel like they're not focused on my medical devices and they're not focused on.

The fact that I, you know, might do things a little differently and live my life a little differently. And it's really nice. It's really nice to have somebody treat me normally and not like I'm about to like break at every step, you know? Yeah, wow. It's clear to me that, so first of all, Miles, you're very eloquent. Well, thank you. You know, I've seen, I've worked with people with chronic medical conditions as well. And I think you've, you know, after a year of group therapy, the conclusions that will come to is something that, you know, I think you share very, very beautifully, this sort of idea that.

And I'm kind of curious about a lot of things that you said. But I think it's really profound to hear you sort of say that, you know, life, we sort of had this expectation that life is supposed to go like this. Like if you're six years old, you go over to friends' birthday parties. And when you're nine or 10, you have a sleepover. And then there are just all these experiences which like normal life is what we call a normal life. And that you were essentially denied those experiences, right? So then how do you feel about yourself? How do you like, you know, you don't feel normal.

And then furthermore, society kind of judges you for that. They're all these, as you said, milestones. And so if a normal person, if a healthy person, if a good person, right, because we also place value judgments on a lot of these milestones. If you're not able to participate in those, how do you start to feel about yourself? You know, like there's a certain amount of like shame that comes with not, you know, I don't know, the best example I can think of is there's a certain age at which people start asking you, okay, like, when are you going to get married and stuff like that, right?

And then like if you're not following that standard track or when are you going to get a job, when are you dot, dot, dot. There are all these assumptions, right, about what your life is supposed to be like. And there's kind of this like idea that if you're not going to do those things, no one ever asks you, do you want to get married? Right? People just are sort of like they try to bucket you based on what society kind of expects. And then if you don't fall into one of those buckets, then you kind of like are a weirdo.

True. And so it's really interesting to hear you kind of share your experience about being an outsider. Yeah, I've had a lot of time to myself. I've had a lot of time to think about things and to reflect, you know, because it's like when people with my condition, like, as much as sometimes the medical system wants you to believe that you don't have time. Sometimes all you have is time because you kind of like, when you live with the life that I've lived where it's like I'm basically isolated most of the time, it feels like a moment

is like forever and not. It's like time is like so strange because it feels like a day can be a month, but a month can be a minute. It's so weird. And I've had a lot of time to think. about myself and to think about all the stuff that I've been through. And it's a lot of thinking. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that.

Can you tell me a little bit about what have you discovered as you, you know, you have time and you think about yourself? I'd love to learn more about what you've discovered about yourself, identity, the nature of humanity. I mean, I don't think I have any good answers because, Why not? Why do you think you don't have any good answers? I don't know. I just feel like I'm not experienced enough. I feel like I'm always learning.

And I just have horrific self-esteem issues. It's pretty bad. But it's because of everything that I've been through. I feel like when a person has to deal with a chronic illness their whole life, It's like there's stages of like disease process where it's like at first it's not that bad. But then when the severity increases, things start getting taken away. And it's traumatic. Well, it's like you start feeling like you're losing things.

Like you're losing your freedom and you're losing your ability to do normal human things. which is something that I experienced basically, you know, because there was a moment in my life where I was kind of normal and my life was, you know, I was going to school and I had friends here and there, but it wasn't like as normal as I wanted it to be. But, you know, as I grew up and I got older, the severity of my condition got worse.

And I slowly started like, losing things. I started losing the ability to be able to go out. Connect with other people. I had a moment of my life where I couldn't really speak. I had a moment of my life where I couldn't walk. I've had

very traumatic experiences happen to me where it's like you just feel like everything's just being taken away from you and you have to kind of like you have to learn how to be, you have to learn how to accept the fact that you're not the same person that you

were before and you're going through changes and you may not like the changes, but unfortunately, this is what's happening. And I've had to try to like pick up whatever pieces of myself I had left to be able to continue and to be able to be here right now. Yeah. What's it like to have things taken away from you. Like, that sounds horrifying. It's, it's like a nightmare. It's, it's very scary. But it's, it's something that, uh, I couldn't, I couldn't stop it from happening because, you know, when you, when you get diagnosed with something and they tell you, well, in this amount of time, this is what's going to happen. And this is what's going to happen. And eventually this is going to happen. And you kind of know what's going to happen. You kind of expect things to happen, but you don't,

you're not truly prepared until it starts happening. So it kind of like, it's, it's a lot. Can you tell me, Mouse, if you feel comfortable? Like, I'd love to hear an actual example or like, tell me a story. Because I'm so curious is what I'm getting from you is sort of like the lessons that you've learned and kind of the conclusions that you've come to the ways in which you've grown and learned to accept things. But what I'm really curious about is like how you got to where you are. Right. So I'm really wondering because I think that certainly your situation sounds quite severe, but I think there are people out there who have had things taken away from them. And I'm so curious, it's almost like, in a sense, the reason it's kind of sad.

But the reason that you're so good at growing and learning from it is because it happens to you, like, over and over and over again. Yeah. It sucks. Right? And so that sucks. But at the same time, I think you really do have something to offer and something that we could learn from in terms of, like, what does that experience like for you? Because when you say you learn to accept it, it's like, I mean, not everyone. No.

And right? Yeah. I think I like somehow a long time ago, something in my brain broke. So I'm kind of like. What do you mean by that? I don't know. I used to be very, I still think I am emotional at times. But there was just a moment where I just, something in me was just like, I got to do something with my life because, you know, if I just sit here and I'm just content with everything that's how.

If I just accept everything that's happening to me, I'm never going to do anything. And it's just going to get worse. And I'm not going to be happy. So that's once, I don't know, I feel like something kind of like. Can you tell me more about that moment? What was going on in your life and do you remember? Well, it kind of goes hand in hand with my previous, my previous life, which is kind of like how I want to refer to. it. But, uh, so when I was in school, I was studying opera at school. Uh, I really wanted to become an opera singer.

It was like my dream. And, uh, when my conditions started getting worse, unfortunately, I had to quit school and I had to quit singing. And I just thought, this is it for me. That's it. Uh, there's nothing else left for me. Uh, I'm just gonna fade away and never, accomplish anything in my life. And it took me a very long time to accept my situation. I was very upset for a long time. I was very sad, very angry. I was very, I was questioning.

I was just like, why is this happening to me? And why doesn't it stop and why doesn't it get better? I don't understand. What did I do? You know? And yeah. What kind of answers did you come up with when you ask, you know, why is this happening to you? What did I do?

Why isn't it getting better? It just got to the point where I just decided there is no answer. And it happened because it happens. And I could either just keep on wondering why or just say, well, it happened. What do I do now? And I slowly started trying to find things that made me. happy again and trying to find things that I liked again and trying to find myself as a person, which I kind of lost myself for quite some time, because I fell into like a very dark part of my life

when my conditions started getting worse, or I was just like, I just, I couldn't, I just didn't, I wasn't happy at all. But with, that's why with streaming slowly I found myself again. And I was able to talk to people, which is something that I really wanted to do. I really wanted to connect with people again and, you know, feel like I have friends. And I wanted to, I don't know, I guess I try to like be more open and be more accepting of myself. And just really, like, experience myself and learn what do I like, what don't I like? And with streaming, I started singing again. And it's funny because it's like, I feel like all the things that I wanted to do

that I was dreaming about doing when I was a kid, I'm doing it, but I'm just doing it in a really strange, different way than I ever thought that I would be able to do it. So I thought I wouldn't be able to do the things that I wanted to do, but I kind of am doing them. I'm just doing them. extremely differently and in a way that I never thought I would ever do. Yeah, what I'm kind of hearing is that there's like, you know, there's like an essence of what we want.

Like if you think about being an opera singer, I don't know necessarily that it's opera, but there's something about, you know, there's like, what is it about being an opera singer that appealed to you? and that we can oftentimes sort of find that same essence in a different path. Yeah. Of, you know, being on stage or sharing something with the world and something that also, when I think about opera, I don't think about, you know, there's something kind of tragic about opera. Yeah, a lot of tragic stories. Yeah, right?

And, I mean, if I'm listening to this story, I think, like, this could definitely be an opera. Oh, God. Right? Yeah. You know, it's almost like your whole life has become an opera. Oh, God. Oh, dear. I mean, I don't know too much about opera, but, right?

Maybe. Because there's certainly, there's like, there's like tragedy and like, you know, we don't even, the other thing that I'm terrified of is if your life is opera is, my understanding is that most operas don't end well, which is where I hope you live happily ever after. But, you know. Well, I have dark humor. It's fine, you know. Yeah, I think you need to to survive what you've been through.

Oh, God, I do. I have a very, I make a lot of dark jokes sometimes. I feel bad because I typically keep them to myself, but there have been moments where it just slips on stream and people are like, Mouse, what are you saying? No, don't say that. And I'm like, sorry. Yeah, it's, you know, I think there's a, there's a correlation between,

dark humor and how terrible thing how dark things are you know i think sometimes the the most the darkest humor that i've ever seen is from people who are terminally ill and people who are taking care of people who are terminally ill and so it's yeah there's something about how humanity grapples with that but yeah so that's so interesting so and and so what i'm kind of hearing is that in a sense you're living your best life like kind of right now Kind of, yeah. You know, I'm still going through a lot of things, but I've never felt more, I feel alive. And it's something that I haven't felt in such a long time.

I didn't even think it would ever be possible for me to feel alive again. And I feel like I'm actually living my life. And I don't feel like a spectator anymore, you know. I felt like I was like, yeah, I felt like I was, it's kind of why, like, it's funny because I kind of tied in my normal, my life into like my V-tuber lore, you know, because when you're a V-tuber, you're kind of playing a character. And my lore is kind of like my real life where it's like, I'm, I'm... What do you mean by lore? My character, my V-tuber character, I'm supposed to be Satan. and I was trapped in a box in hell

and I was released from a box in hell and now I live on earth and I am a live streamer and in a lot of ways it's kind of like a parallel to my real life because I've always felt like I was trapped in a box certainly and it's it's a way

that I've been feeling my whole life where it's like I feel like I was inside this box just looking at everybody living their life and seeing my family go through their lives and and experiencing things. And I'm just watching, just watching everybody do all these things. And now you've been you've been unleashed. Yeah. Yeah. You're taking the internet and the rest of the world by storm. I'm going to take it all. Yeah. Or none, I don't know.

Yeah, that's so interesting. You know, I wonder if, I mean, you talk about this person as a character, right? Your mouse is a character. But what I'm kind of hearing from you is, I don't know. I mean, it really makes me wonder about blurring the lines of what's real and what's fake. Yeah. She is me. She is me. I am her. It's just a more, I feel. I feel. I feel. like mouse is like she's just a me dialed up to like a hundred which I'm dialed up to a hundred all the time anyway but this is like uh more I mean I would imagine you know and here I'm just just tossing this out that I think there are parts of you that sound like they're dialed up to a hundred but I imagine that mouse also helps you dial down parts to zero that is true yeah that is very true it's like we go hand in hand Yeah. Makes me wonder a lot about just, you know, quote, unquote, normal people and whether, I think sometimes we may take it for granted how much we're actually doing what you do as well. I think you're closer to normal. The more that I talk to you, I mean, I don't, I don't think you're weird, really abnormal.

I have people tell me that all the time, but it's just, I, it's just something that I felt. I've always felt like I was not a human. I felt like... When did you start feeling that way? A creature. Oh, I started feeling like a creature. I want to say since I was like four years old, when I could like... I feel like at four years old, I, like, officially like was aware that I was alive. Like, you know, with...

I had thoughts. Because I feel like before that I didn't really have any thoughts, so I can't say. I only go by stories that my mom tells me, but around four years old, I think, because that's when stuff started getting very complicated. How so? You know, so my condition, like, it had stages where it was like when I was very young, I was very sick, but then at around a certain age, it kind of calmed down. but then when I hit another age it got worse and it's been like a downward spiral ever since. But around four years old, that's when things started getting pretty difficult. And I started to feel, I started to realize that I was, I affected my family like a lot.

And I was very aware. I was very aware of the stress that my parents had to endure because of me. How are you aware of that as a four-year-old? I'm curious, what is the, like, how does a four-year-old understand that? I just, I don't even know how I knew. I just knew that my parents were always, my parents, so I come from a Puerto Rican household. So my parents are always very, they're very, they're very, they're very Catholic. Okay.

They're very Catholic and they are very worrying. They worry a lot and they are very emotional. They're very emotional people. What does that mean emotional people? They're very open with their emotions. I see. Yeah, they're very open. So expressions of love, expressions of fear.

Yeah, very open about it. And I think it was a lot for me to handle. I appreciate the fact that they were very open with me because I feel like it made me aware of their feelings a lot. And I don't know. I feel like there was some good in it. But I also feel like it was kind of not that good. How so? Because it made, I felt a lot of pressure.

growing up because of that. Pressure to do what? Pressure to be healthy. So that my parents wouldn't worry about me because I felt like a burden on my family, my whole life. So I'm almost, I can imagine that you maybe felt responsible for their stress. Yes. Like maybe if you were healthier, they could all relax and chill out and wouldn't have to cry or other things.

Yeah, that's part of the reason why now I take care of my parents so much. I am doing everything my power to make their old age years be as comfortable as possible because I just felt like I was very rough. I was a very difficult child to have. help me understand what made you a difficult child to have. I, you know, there was a lot of moments with my parents where they were worried about me and worried about my health. And I, you know, I saw things growing up where my parents were very desperate to see how they could fix me. and they didn't understand why I was born this way.

They felt, you know, there were moments in private that I witnessed that I know I wasn't supposed to see where my mom was like, my mom felt like she did something. And that's why I'm the one that was paying for it. And I think it's because of like the whole Catholic guilt thing, you know? Yeah. So there's a lot of, like, Catholic guilt going on. And, you know, I was taking to a lot of, like, faith healing, which was very shame on them for praying on my mom. Because it made me very sad. Do you feel comfortable talking about that?

I find myself being very curious. I can talk about it a little bit. I don't want to go too much into detail. But, you know, when my parents were very. They tried everything. My mom thought, oh, well, if I take her to this prayer circle or this healing thing, she's going to be fine. Or, oh, somebody from church said, if I just get her like this type of plant and I make it in like a tea, she's going to get better. And it was just like a lot of like things where I could see growing up, I could see the increasing amount of stress that was weighing upon my mom where she was.

She felt like she was trying everything and nothing was working and it just grew more and more anxiety in me To the point where I was just I think that also Attributed to the amount of like guilt and embarrassment that I felt because I just kept thinking well, you know if I If I try what they want to try and if it works then that's great and they're gonna be happy and it's gonna be happy and it's gonna be great and it's going to be fine. But unfortunately, that's not how things work. And, you know, I've had to feel guilty for a very long time. I felt like I was a cause of a lot of stress in my family's life. And, uh, yeah. I mean, I'm just kind of imagining that, you know, in a weird way, it's like the harder they try to do.

try, there's like more desperation and more desperation and more desperation. And in a weird way, like the more desperately they try to fix you, I'm just sort of thinking that the one thing that gets reinforced each time they try something stranger and stranger and stranger is that the one truth at the end of the day is that you're broken in some way. So in a bizarre way, I'm almost wondering if like that's kind of what gets reinforced there, right? Which is like, and then you're sort of left with this burden of you see your parents like bending over backwards and doing this and that and like they clearly want you to get better and you really want to get better but you sort of can't, but you kind of feel like responsible for not being able to. Yeah. Yeah. That's basically what I went through. I felt very responsible for a lot of. pain that my family went through and in turn you know I had my own pain but then I also had

the pain that I felt like I was inflicting upon others because of my issues and it was just a lot of it grew a lot of like self-hatred in me and my self-esteem suffered so much because of that and I it took a very very long time for me to learn to begin to like myself because I can't really honestly say that I love myself yet, but I do like myself a little bit more than I used to because I really used to hate myself like a lot. How did that start to change for you? I think for me, it took some time. I think in starting streaming and in becoming a V-tuber, I was really able to connect with other people and I got to know other people.

And I feel like in learning more about other people, I learned more about the things that I liked and I learned more about myself as a person. and everybody was so nice to me and I it was almost like you know people would be like oh mouse you know you're so funny oh mouse you know we like you and there was so many like wonderful words from people

that I've like met and in my brain I would always be like yeah that's not true they're just you know just pretending to me nice or whatever but I don't know, I slowly started to see myself in a different way with the help of my community. And I just, I'm really thankful for that. And I met a couple of really wonderful people that are also like streamers and stuff and creators that I've gotten to know privately. and we've become really close friends and it's like it's just really nice to be able to talk to other people because I feel like in learning more about them I learn more about myself and I don't know

I can't really like pinpoint when I started feeling differently I just know that slowly without even realizing it like I started liking myself a little bit more I don't think I'm completely there but I definitely don't hate myself anymore, but I don't love myself, but I'm in the middle. I'm getting there, I think. Yeah, I think that's actually very, very important. In a weird way, like, if you were frustrated with yourself for not loving yourself already, that actually, like, moves you more towards self-hatred. Yeah.

Does that kind of make sense? And so in a weird way, like accepting yourself for not being able to love yourself is actually like the way to move towards self-love. Yeah. Right? It's kind of weird. But that also, we can slip into this sort of thing where it's like, well, I'm supposed to love myself. Like, what the hell is wrong with me? I can't love myself.

I think I was just like very, I think it was more like I had years of my life where I was just really mad at myself and I was just really angry. What were you mad at yourself for? It wasn't really like myself I was like I was mad at my body Because I just felt like it was betraying me And I felt like I just felt like Somehow

I was betraying myself And even though it wasn't anything that I can control Uh It things happened You know And it took me a very long time To learn to accept that sometimes Shit happens

and there's nothing that I could do to change it, but the way that I react towards the change, that's what I can control. Where did you learn that? It's just something that I've learned over time, I think, because I just felt like there was just something that I needed to change because I was very unhappy and I just didn't want to,

to remain alone and upset. I hate saying angry. I don't like saying the word angry. I don't like using the word angry. I always say upset for some reason. Anger scares me for some reason. Not sure why. I'm not sure why.

I mean, I have a hypothesis there. But we don't have to go there if you don't want to. I'm steering clear that. Maybe we won't go there. But yeah, I don't know. I just learned that I could control the way I react to things. And I mean, sometimes I can't control it, but I try my best to, you know. But I don't know.

I'm just really weird. What? I think I'm just weird. Why? Like weirder than normal people? Oh, yeah, I think so. Why do you think that? I mean, I respectfully, I disagree, but help me understand why.

Yeah, oh yeah. Why? So, okay, can I think for a second? Yeah, you can't think for a second. What confusing individual, I'm sorry. No, I, I mean, I don't. I, I, um. What's so funny?

I like to laugh. Okay. So here's, and so, Mouse, I'm going to just share some thoughts about how I understand you, which a couple of caveats. The first is we've been talking for about 45 minutes. So there's really no way for me to like truly understand who you are. And at the same time, I think that part of the reason that I feel like I understand something about you is because I think that what you share is like actually very authentic. and very relatable and in a sense quite normal. I mean, I think that despite all of the challenges that you've faced, you've sort of like,

so you're inspiring. And I think that sometimes what happens is human beings like really, really struggle, right? And they suffer. And as a result of that suffering, they're sort of like tested on the most basic levels. And some people crumble and some people don't. And if we look at it historically, people who don't when they open their mouth, they're able to like connect to other people. And so in a strange way, I think that you putting on essentially the mask of a V-tuber

allows you to be very authentic. Right? So there's there's something like almost like you can truly be yourself because you're kind of hiding so like clearly behind a mask. Yeah. And so the funny thing is it's actually like in a sense you fix so much of what is wrong with the world, which is that we all put on what we pretend to be our authentic faces, but we're like shady on the inside. Right. So I'm going to walk around with this face and then like, but what I display with the way that I interact with this face is going to be like fundamentally different from the way that I feel inside.

Right. So like I put on an act even though I'm wearing my real skin. And the weird thing is that somehow you've managed to flip it, where you put on a fake skin and therefore you can actually be like the closest version of your real self. And so I think what connects with people is that, you know, what you're talking about being an outsider, feeling like an alien, I'm going to steer clear of the anger.

But, you know, like having, as you put it, horrific self-esteem and then like even this, I mean, there are so many journeys that I've heard you walk, which like you kind of, I mean, we haven't gone into too much, but even this sort of idea of like, I don't want my life to be this way anymore. And why is my life? Because there's so many places where people get stuck. Like one place where people get stuck is like, why is my life this way? Why me?

Why can't my body be different? And in a weird way, I mean, I don't, I don't think comparison is very helpful. But, you know, a lot of people can be uncomfortable with their body or their body can fail them. in some fundamental way. And so people find themselves asking that question. I just don't know that everyone makes it through that. Right. So some people never, like some people develop an eating disorder or like some other, you know, some problem. And then they just kind of like, they're sort of stuck there. But somewhere along the way you kind of like made it through that and you're just sort of like, well, like it doesn't have to have a reason. It just is. And so then the question kind of becomes,

well, what do I do about it? And that's where at some point you sort of realize, and this is what's so terrifying for people and I don't I'm just going keep going but like when you think about okay what am I going to do about it what most people think about the doing is like changing the outside right so if I if I feel lonely what am I going to do about it like I'm going to go get in shape and I'm going to make more money and then I'm going to like you know take all these classes so I know how to make small talk and then like I'm going to become like this awesome external human being I'm going to fix all the problems on the outside so I can connect with other people. The weird thing is that in a weird way, like that's not an option for you, right? Like you can't fix fundamentally like the body that

you've been given. And so in a weird way, I think that you've actually gone like internally. And so we hear a lot about these journeys where you kind of talk about, you know, being really upset with yourself, like learning to accept yourself and then sort of saying there is no answer. There is no reason. But I'm tired of being lonely and I'm tired of like being upset with myself and something has to change. And you discover that you can't, you know, because life is like, in a weird way, I was about to use the word lucky, but that's not really the right word. You know, in a weird way, like, there's external change and fixing things on the outside was not an option for you, right? And so the only place you had to look was like internally. And in a sense,

I think that's actually like really, really useful, hopefully for people to understand is because what I see is I see people who try to go fixing things on the outside, fixing things on the outside, fixing things on the outside. I recently, for example, was talking to someone who, you know, was thinking about traveling to India and getting surgery so that they could get their shins lengthened. They felt they were too short and they could get like, they could literally like, there are surgeons in India that will break apart your bones, insert rods and make you like, three inches or four inches taller. Yeah, that's like a year recovery. That's rough. That's a year. I mean, some people don't recover at all. Like some people have lifelong pain from that kind of surgery and debilitation and stuff like that. But it sounds like you're knowledgeable about it.

Oh, I know a lot of things. Oh, yeah. I can see that. You have infinite time, right? You have nowhere to go. Yeah. I've experienced a lot of medical things. And I've seen a lot of stuff.

It's so strange because, like, through the medical system, I've met a lot of inspiring, interesting people. And it's, it's, it's, I didn't really, like, think about it as connections until now, you know. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by connections? Because when, when you're in the moment of going through the motions of, like, being sick and you're in, like, hospital. Like I've had stays where it's like sometimes I'll be in. There have been times where I've been in for like five months or six months or, you know, for quite some time, very ill. You don't really

think about the people that you meet on the inside at the time. It's now that I reflect upon the people that I met in my time there because I spent so much time there and I had such a desire to get out of it that I just didn't really like think about the people that were there. And now is what I'm thinking about the people that I met and thinking about, oh yeah, you know, I remember meeting so-and-so. They were on the same floor as me and they were going through this. And I remember they always used to act a certain way or say this to me. And it wasn't until now that I think, man, I was, I was.

was making connections back then, too. I just didn't see the misconnections because to me, people I would meet in the hospital was, it was such a final thing to me, you know? I didn't really think about that. It's weird. Yeah. I mean, I think that makes sense. The hospital is just a separate universe.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You enter a place where time and relationships like, I mean, I sort of, know this from, I mean a little bit from the patient side, but more from the doctor side, that you form really powerful connections, but they're like in this artificial world. And I still remember patients that, you know, I'd grown very, very close to and just learned so much from that had such a profound impact on me becoming the person that I am today.

And I've like, you know, you'll see them every day for a month and then you'll never see them again. Like, I haven't seen them in a decade. So it's kind of weird. It's like a parallel universe. Yeah. But I think it's so interesting to hear, you know, your experience of, like, being an outsider. I'm kind of curious.

Do you feel like an outsider now? There are times that I do. It's strange because for the most part, I feel, I don't feel that way, but I do at the same time. But it's not, it's not as bad as a, I don't necessarily see it. a bad thing like I used to feel back then like I'm very much aware that I'm not like other people but I also feel differently it's so it's so hard to explain to me because I have moments where it's like I'll be talking to another streamer or you know I'll talk to a friend of mine and we'll talk about taking a trip and doing certain things and those are just some things that I just might

never be able to do. And I'm very much aware that there are things that I might not ever be able to do. But that's okay because I'm doing other things. And it's strange because it's like I feel different, but I don't necessarily feel like an outsider. It's, it's, it's weird. Yeah. I wonder if this is where sometimes what I'm sort of hearing is that you may still, actually kind of understand and in a weird way feel like you're an outsider, but you just, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't cause you suffering anymore. No, it doesn't. I mean, I do have my moments sometimes because, you know, as I get closer to people,

I've met so many great friends streaming and I have a desire to see them and I have a desire to, you know, recently like some of my friends were on a trip and I was like, man, I really wish I could have been there. And it makes me sad for a moment. but, you know, they're so nice to me and they accommodate me and, you know, we'll FaceTime and we'll do different things. So it's just really nice to see that, you know, they care and they understand that I am this way and they accept me for this way. And I'm living my life a little differently, but I'm a human. Yeah, I mean, or very differently, but.

You know. Yeah. Any questions for me? Anything that you, in particular, that we've talked about that you want to talk about more or? I don't even know. My brain is all over the place. It's, it's interesting. I don't really get to talk like this much.

What does like this mean? You know, well, my feelings and my thoughts and my life. I don't really dive into it too much. I've only recently started talking about my illness on stream because not just because I, you know, I want people to see me normally, but also, you know, because of the shame thing. But it's like, I just, you know,

I'm also very much aware that, you know, when sometimes you just can't talk about these things because they're very heavy and it's difficult to bring. bring them up and it's difficult to talk about on stream. And people come to watch sometimes because they want to escape and they want to have a good time and not necessarily listen to me to talk about stuff like this. Yeah, certainly. The thing that made me laugh a little bit is it's difficult to bring up.

Yeah. How are you all doing today? Well, I'm filled with an internal existential crisis about why my body fails me at so many levels and I'm not able to have a normal human life. How are you today? Like, hey, guys, I had like a horrific infection and I lost my voice for a year and that's why it sound funny. And I'm currently anxious about my life every day and in a panic.

So how are you doing? Yeah, right? And I think that kind of goes back to, but I think that goes back to the mask that we put on. Yeah. So we ask each other all the time. Like when we're moving around in our, what is that, a flesh tuber? Yeah, I'm a flesh tuber.

And I'm, I don't even know if the two, so if I'm just interacting with someone at a grocery store, am I a flesh tuber then or am I just a flesh? You're in your flesh prison. Flesh prison. So when I, when I'm in my prison of the flesh, you know, which is a, I don't even know what to think about that. But, you know, because we, we don't. share who we are, right? Like when we are struggling. Or if we aren't sure about what we're doing in life and stuff like that, people ask you, how are you? And what you sort of say is like,

oh, I'm good. How are you? Yeah. And so it kind of makes sense. And that's where like at this point, I'm kind of wondering about a couple of things, Mouse. Like I have other questions, but and I also have kind of other, yeah, is there something in particular that you want to talk about more anything that I could help you with? I don't know. You can ask me anything you like. If I don't feel comfortable, I just won't say anything. Okay.

So let me offer like a couple of different options. Okay. And let me know what, if anything, if you want to talk about the stuff. So let me just think for a second. So the first thing that I've kind of been steering clear of is anger. but I think anger is very, very important. It doesn't have to be important now. The other thing that I'm kind of curious about is,

so sometimes when I talk to people on stream, what I find I want to do more than anything else is hug them at some point in my life. Like, I feel like that's really what's missing from stream is like, I just want to give people a hug. And I also remember, like, even when I was like a psychiatrist, you know, we're taught, I mean, I guess I'm still a psychiatrist, but when I was like doing a lot of clinical practice,

we're sort of trained that we're not supposed to like touch our patients. And that that, you know, that sort of unspoken rule is, is there is good and is there for a reason. But I spent some time talking to my supervisors and stuff about it. And I think that like I found a way to, you know, respectfully talk about giving hugs and sort of like, you know, hugs or handshakes or whatever.

And, and now after having like sort of a, a calm conversation with a patient. I, you know, we may decide like hugging or not hugging. And so I'm a little bit, I find myself being very, having an internal sense of wanting to know what you quote unquote really look like, wanting to give you a hug. And I'm not saying that we need to talk about that. But it's just something that I'm, you know, I wonder just something about this bare, like,

so on the one hand, you're authentic, you know, and I think you're very, you know, and I think you're very, very honest and you share your experiences very, very authentically. And I think that's actually what allows people to connect with you. I think that's what allows you to make friends. You know, you feel connected. I'm getting the sense that you don't feel quite as lonely as you used to. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't feel it from time to time, but not so much anymore. And it's nice. Yeah. So I'm just a little bit curious about, you know, that connection. between sort of like, on the one hand, it's very authentic and even in a sense more authentic than

you can get with two people who are in flesh prisons. Because there is, you've almost like leaned into this idea of like, this is a mask that I'm going to put on and we're all going to kind of do that. And paradoxically, when you sort of put that on is like when you get to be the most yourself. Right. So I think we could talk a little bit more about that. We could talk about anger. You know, I think there's also like questions that we haven't really talked about. You mentioned that your family is very Catholic. Yeah. And we sort of, you know, you kind of mentioned a little bit about how you make sense of what happened to you.

But I didn't hear anything about God or the will of God in there. So I'm a little bit curious about from a spiritual perspective or religious perspective, how you come to understand your life. Hmm. And if you're comfortable talking about any of that, you know, but. Oh, I don't mind. I don't mind talking about religion. It's just something that I've always felt like it's a very personal thing. I am the type of person where it's like, whatever you choose to believe in, that's up to you.

Everything is valid. Maybe that's me being weird. But I just think, I don't know, you would think that a person in my position would be very anti-a-oh. God. However, I believe that there is something out there. I don't know what it is. There has to be something because I'm still here, and that's very strange. So why would someone think that someone in your position would be anti-God? I get a lot of comments. I've gotten a lot of comments in the past from people that have told me, man, if I would have gone through all the things that you've been through, I would never, like, what the, you know, it's a lot of, like, and I've, I've met a lot of people

with my condition or something similar to my condition. And they, they're very, they're very different. They think very differently than I do. How do they think differently from the way you do? Um, I've had a couple that, uh, they are very, um, very anti-anything and very upset. Very angry. Uh, and, you know, it's, it's normal when you go through these things. I feel like it's very normal to feel that way. It's very normal to be upset. And it's very normal to start questioning existence in the start.

Being like, what the F? What the F? Higher power? What's happening? Yeah. Or say, I don't believe in you at all. So, but that's, you know, I, I don't, I don't like judge anybody because of that and everybody's able to think whatever they want. But I just think for me, there has to be something out there because I'm still here and that's really strange.

Help me understand that a little bit. I guess. I don't know. No, I mean, I think you feel pretty strongly about it. Yeah, I do. I respect my parents and their beliefs and stuff like that. You know, but I am, I just feel like there are a lot of odds stacked against me. There have always been a lot of odds stacked against me.

I've always had a life where it's like, my life has always been in like this strange limbo place where it's like, well, something really bad is going to happen to her supposed to happen. Or I'll have like a doctor tell me, well, this is, this is the trajectory of your life. And this is. And what would they say? Do you mind if I ask? I mean, you don't have to show that if it's uncomfortable. But a lot of stuff about, I, I would get a lot of talks.

A lot of, we just want you to be comfortable talks. And, yeah. That's a We just want to So how did you understand that when they would say something like that? Um Well And how old were you when they started telling you that?

Fairly young when it started happening, very young. And it was very frustrating for me Because when I would start hearing that I feel like that was when my parents stopped having expectations for me. And that really bothered me a lot. It was more like, we just want you to be happy.

We just want you to be okay. They weren't, they used to be very, like, growing up, my parents were pretty strict with me with, like, grades and stuff and, like, school. But the second I started getting, though, we just want you to be comfortable talks, that's when they were like, it's okay, it's fine, it's fine. Everything was always like, it's fine,

it's going to be okay you don't have to you don't owe them anything you don't have to do anything you're not you know nobody's judging you like it was just a lot of like it's okay

because something you know because of yeah how did you want like what did that do to you dude it just made me feel it made me feel very sad

because you know my family is very into like achievements and to just have that taken away from me really upset me and it made me feel very sad. What exactly was taken away from you? The possibility of achievement or the expectation that you should achieve? Yeah, expectation.

The desire to want me to achieve things or to have goals for a long time in my life. I just felt like I wasn't allowed to have any goals or any. Sounds like your parents gave up hope. It's strange because in a way they didn't, but then in other ways they did. It was more like they were searching so hard to help me, but it just got to a point where in them trying to search, they kind of just got discouraged. And it was just, it was just a lot of sad stuff. Yeah, so, Mouse, I'm going to, is it okay if I kind of challenge you a little bit? Yeah.

Okay. So I think that there's like, I'm detecting sort of like a absence of emotion in particular directions. So at the same time, I want to like respect some of your boundaries. So if it's okay with you instead of asking you questions about it, like I'll share some thoughts or hypotheticals. What do you think about that? Or do you not want to touch it with a 10 foot pole? No, you can if you like, if I feel comfortable, I let you know. Okay, thank you.

So here's the first thing. Like I didn't realize until just this moment, how devastating. And that's the word, like, like when you said my parents stopped like when they're like, oh, we just want you to be comfortable. Like the first thought is like, that's not sad. That's like devastating. Like, oh my God. You know, like to have no, for your parents to like be focused on grades and stuff and then all of a sudden be like, it's okay. It's okay, darling.

You don't have to worry about school. Like that's not sad. That's like terrifying. Like what the hell is going on here? Like what's like, you know, I can't imagine what it's actually like for, you know, a kid who's growing up with these expectations. to suddenly, like, have those expectations taken off the table. And that, to me, sounds like the most terrifying prognosis ever. Yeah, it was a lot.

I pretty much had to basically, I was having this conversation with somebody a couple of nights where I was like I felt like my whole life I just had to work 10 times more than the average person because I had to do it for myself because nobody else was expecting anything out of me and I felt like if I just sit there and accept if I just sit there and accept being comfortable I will never do anything and I am going to die and I didn't want that and I said no and I started trying really, really hard. I sometimes I tried too hard where I would get in trouble for it and I would get very ill. What do you mean by that?

Well, I eventually had to drop out of school, but I was supposed to leave school sooner, but I didn't because I wanted to try to finish. and I tried to force myself to finish school. And it got to the point where my body was just like, you cannot be here, you cannot be in school. It is your, it's bad, you need to stop. And I was very angry for a long time that I couldn't finish school. It really hurt me. It was something that I really wanted to do.

but I ended up I ended up worsening my condition because I was forcing myself to try to finish and you know after that I kind of like went through a period where I was just like you know what I don't care anymore

but then in saying I don't care I started realizing I do care and I was like well I'm going to try I'm going to try to see if I could somehow do something to get out of this and it was it seemed hopeless for a while because my health got worse and things got worse for me but I had like a moment of kind of like rest when I found streaming and I can say with certainty streaming and V-tubing literally saved my life it really did I I don't think I would be here if it wasn't for that and what what it's how did streaming save your life it it gave me something to work towards uh because I just I just felt like my whole life I had doors being shut left and right.

Everything was always being taken away from me. Everything was always, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. No, you can't do this because this is going to happen if you do this. And you can't do that. And it was just like, when I found streaming, it was like, I'm going to do this for myself and I'm going to see what I can do. And I didn't even go into it thinking that I was going to grow an audience.

I didn't think about that. I just wanted to make some friends. I just wanted to just do something with my life because at the time, when I first started streaming, I was very ill. And I had gone through a moment in time where I was completely bedridden for a while. and it just took out took a lot for me it took a lot out of me and uh i slowly with streaming which i started a few years ago uh i you know and my health improving i'm finally able to walk a little bit and get out of bed and do things that i wasn't able to do before like you know take a shower by myself and self-care by myself and now I can do those things now and it was a very difficult

journey and I'm still I'm still on it and I don't think I'll ever be a normal perfect human that can do whatever but I want to return to my normalcy you know something that I can be happy with And I think I'm getting there slowly, but it's been very difficult. Yeah, I mean, you know, Mouse, I know this is going to sound kind of weird, but I find myself almost like, I think if you ever became a completely normal human, I think a big part of what you give to the rest of the world would be sort of taken away because I think what is most kind of powerful about your story, at least to me, is that you don't have to be normal to find a path.

And it's sort of this idea that like you don't, you know, let go of normal completely. And what I've sort of really appreciated about your journey is you kind of have like leaned into what the hand that life has dealt you. You know, and by leaning into the hand that life deals you, like paradoxically, the whole problem is that we try so hard to adhere to a standard. and that actually doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't work. I don't know how else to put it. Yeah. And, you know, paradoxically, what works is like, in a sense, abandoning that standard and just trying to figure out, okay, like, what am I going to do for myself?

And just going back to this whole thing about no expectations, like, you know, when I've worked with kids that have really bad behavioral problems, like, these are kids that have been, like a juvenile, you know, they've been in juvie jail like three times by the age of 15 using drugs and all this other kinds of stuff. What I tend to find is the most common element in their life is at some point people stopped expecting anything out of them. So adults were just sort of like, this kid is going nowhere and there's no point in expecting this child to step up and accomplish anything.

And then what happens is. is children strive to meet expectations. And when we give up hope on a kid, they're going to live up to that expectation as well and start living a life that becomes completely hopeless. Because that's what we expect of them. And it's devastating. And like paradoxically, this is why, like, sometimes, you know,

when I work with kids like that, what I'll actually try to do is give them leadership roles. And you'll be amazed at how effective that is at getting their behavior. in line. Like, we sort of think about these people as being incapable, but the more responsibility you give them, like, it's amazing how much they step up. But someone has to believe that they can do it. Yeah. I, I, you know, I wish, uh, I wish my parents would have been more, uh, they were always pretty like hard on me. But it was just when things just started getting very, very, um, I wish, I wish my parents would have been more, uh, they were always pretty,

getting very, it was, when things got very difficult, it was more about just me being comfortable. And I, I know that they love me, that they love me. And I know that they, they, they, it's just, it's such a difficult. It's such, it's so difficult. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I love my parents so much. Because it's not easy to be a caretaker. And, uh, you know, especially, having to be a caretaker for so long to somebody who's been so ill, it's very hard. And my parents are very old-fashioned, and they do not believe in mental health, help, because they're very old. And they're from the old world. So there's a lot of, they have a lot of emotions that they have not dealt with.

to our family situation than me. And, you know, I'm just really, I'm happy that now I am, I feel more stable in my life, that I could be a support system for them because they've been there for me for so long. And I just want them to be comfortable. And it's weird because now I'm the one saying, I just want them to be comfortable. and I just want them to be happy. And I know that that's what they were saying to me. What's weird about that?

I don't know. It's so strange. It's like our roles have been reversed. And it's something that we never expected. And I never expected it to happen. And they never expected it to happen. It's funny because the other day, my mom, my parents are, you know, they're getting older. And their health is not great.

And it's really affecting me emotionally because, I just remember seeing them young and being so strong and helping me. And now they are very old. And it's like my mom still kind of wants to take care of me. But she's realizing that I'm a little bit more independent now. And I'm actually like getting better. So she doesn't really know what to do because my mom has been like a professional mother for so long. Yeah.

She's, you know, she's, she's, she's always had to take care of me. So now that I'm, you know, it's so strange that, like, she's like, I can't believe, like, you essentially, you have a job now and you're working and you're making money. And it's just things that they just never expected to see out of me that they're just very shocked. But also, they don't really know how to deal with it. And sometimes, you know, they just don't know what to do. Yeah, what about you? Do you know what to do? I don't even know what to do. I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, I just want, you know, I just, I'm just very thankful for everything that they've done for me.

And I just want to take care of them and they want to be there for them and love them. Like, they love me, even though, you know, we went through a lot of hard times, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So let me think about this for a second. Okay. Can I share some thoughts? Yeah. So the first is like you're going to take care of, like so in families in general, so I'm going to just talk about families in general. Okay, we don't need to go too much into detail about your family and stuff. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So in general, like, what we do is what we're taught or what we're shown, really, more so than taught.

And so I think that like, you know, in your family, what I'm hearing is that there were very clear roles. There was like a very lopsided like caretaker and care receiver. Yeah. Right. And so this is a challenge for basically all families and all parents. But at some point as your kids grow up, like sometimes people will just flip and you'll, you know, the person who used to take care of people are now being. taken care of. But a lot of times what really has to happen in healthy relationships is we have to sort of almost become like colleagues are at the same level as our parents where there isn't really

like a, and that just may be foreign because for such a long time you've needed to be taken care of. And as it beautifully said, by the way, that your mom is a professional mother, right? Like, so she needed to be like a level 100 mother. Like you couldn't be a level 25 mother. Like you got to leave the noob zone and start being like, you know, serious like endgame mom content kind of stuff i don't even know what that is but it feels right right man she's been at it for a long time it's the only thing she never knows she's been grinding right she's been like it's yeah it's adorable and i i love her for it and it's also very frustrated yeah because i want her to relax and i just want her to you know to enjoy life but she's like i i don't know what to do i don't know what to do what do what do what do what do what do what do what

do, how do I take care of you? And I'm like, you don't have to do it much anymore. Right. And so it's confusing because for her, it's like she's been doing this for so long. She doesn't know how to do anything else. Yeah. It doesn't. And so I think it's like, I'm not surprised that you just want them to be comfortable because like when there are people that you love, you know, so when your parents loved you, I mean, they still do obviously. But, you know, when you were growing up, they demonstrated like you kind of like in your family dynamic. what I'm sort of hearing is that taking care of someone and loving them go hand in hand. Right?

That's how you demonstrate your love is by taking care of them. And so now it's kind of confusing because if you don't need to be taken care of, it's like how does mom show you that she loves you? And furthermore, how do you show your parents that you love them without like taking care of them? Because that's what you do. And if they're getting older, you know, that's what you sort of should do and stuff, if you believe in that kind of thing, which it sounds like you do. And that's great.

I do it. I think the other thing that we got to be a little bit careful about, I think, and I'm just going to mention this. We don't have to go into it. But I think it's just in terms of your journey, mouse, I think that, like, developing a healthy relationship with anger is probably very important going forward. Yeah. And so I don't want to ask you too many questions about it, but in terms of feeling like,

you know, we're here to educate and we're here to help, I'd love to share just a couple of general principles about anger. Is that okay? Yeah. So the first is that it's clear to me that you love your, parents. It's clear to me that you're grateful for what your parents have given you. Fair? Yes. So when we love people and we're grateful for what they've given us, sometimes it can be very confusing to be angry with them. Does that make sense? Yes. And so it can feel,

especially if we have like problems with low self-esteem or feeling guilty, anger is the hardest thing to sit with. Because if you feel angry with your parents, and I'm just talking hypothetically here, this is more general education for everyone, okay? So if we, like, think about it, like, if I feel like I've got, you know, if I have, like, so here,

here you are, and we're hypothesizing here, because we're not going to actually ask you, but, you know, here you are growing up, you see what impact your health is having on your parents. You recognize that, like, oh, it's my responsibility to get better and I'm putting them through all this kind of stuff, and why can't I get better,

why can't I be healthy? And so you start to feel guilty for not being healthy. And then if you feel guilty, like getting angry with them doesn't work, right? You're not going to let yourself do that. So oftentimes what we see in these kinds of like caregiver, care receiver relationships is that anger is like absent from this kind of relationship. Similarly, your parents aren't allowed to be angry with you and you're not allowed to be angry with them. Does that make sense?

Yes. Because they surely like, oh, poor mouse is like so sick. Like, you know, like we can't be angry with her. Like, that's not fair. But, but like, let's, we're going to hypothesize a little bit. But let's be clear. Like, if you're a kid, you're going to do some things that piss your parents off. And if they're parents, they're going to do some things that piss you off.

Like, that's part of the relationship, right? Yep. But the problem is that when we have these kind of caregiver, care receiver, relationships, we don't allow ourselves to be angry with it because that feels bad, right? It's like, it's like what kind of asshole parents am I going to be like, here my kid is with this autoimmune deficiency, and I'm getting pissed at them for not cleaning up their toys, right? Like, oh, I should be like more forgiving and stuff.

And so in a weird way, I think over time, I think you're going to get there on your own. I don't think you really need any help with this and we don't need to force this or anything like that. But I just want to say, I think it's okay for you to, just as you've come to accept, sadness, you've come to accept, you know, guilt, you've come to accept, like, you know, some self-esteem problems and stuff like that. Like, I think you own that really well. I think it's okay for you and anyone else out there to also own anger. Like anger doesn't mean an absence of love. Anger doesn't mean, you know, like, there can be anger in there. And there's a healthy way to

sort of have it there. And the first is to like not blame yourself for being angry or your parents to be angry with you and and stuff like that. Like, you know, I think anger is, is like, it's okay. Like, it doesn't make you a bad person. This is, I guess, what I mean to say, and this is what I really want to share with you is I don't think you're a bad person. It doesn't make you a bad person if you're angry with yourself, if you're angry with your friends, if you're angry with your parents. Like, it doesn't make you a bad person. It's just part of the experience of life. Like, what do you think about that? I think it's, it's so hard for me to to accept anger.

I don't know. I have such an aversion to it. It's funny because it's like I could be on my stream and I could like fake rage. It's not even fake rage. It's like I'm mad at a game. But like to be angry with myself or to be angry towards another human, it really bothers me.

And it makes me feel kind of sick inside and it scares me. It's an emotion that really terrifies me. for some reason. And I don't really know why, but it is. And it's why most of the time I, whenever I express that I'm unhappy with something, I usually say, oh, I'm upset. I hate saying I'm angry. I hate expressing anger.

It just doesn't feel right to me. But I'm trying to learn that it's normal, and I'm trying to normalize it in my life. but it's difficult. Yeah, so, Mouse, this is where I want you to please think about the question that I'm going to ask you for about five to six seconds before you answer. So, first of all, do you want to talk about this at all? Secondly, do you want to talk about this in a more personal way? And thirdly, do you want to talk about it in a more general way? We could talk about it in a general way.

Perfect. Okay, so let's try to understand this. Is it okay if I, I'm going to ask you a couple, like, more academic questions. We're going to enter. I'm going to put on my professor hat as Dr. K. Is that okay? Yeah. So it's not going to be personal. So what do you think it is that makes people, so you mentioned that you sometimes get really uncomfortable around anger and you're almost scared of it. Does that make sense? Yeah. What makes people uncomfortable with emotions or scared of emotions? I'm not really sure. So let's, so I think that's because let's step out of your

head for a second. So like, let's say that I'm scared of love. Like, oh my God, I met this person at work and like, they make me feel this way. I'm so frightened. I'm scared of love. Why do you think that is? Oh, I don't know because they don't, they don't want to. I don't know. Okay. I don't know. So, sorry, I may have set you up to fail there. But so, so this is where, you know, I think the simplest reason that people are afraid of things is because they're just like inexperienced with them. Yeah. Right? So like that's the number one reason.

So if you, even if you think about, you know, I remember when I was spending some time with some family in India many years ago and like people in India, my family members were like quite racist towards particular ethnicities. And then like it, I realized after talking to them that, you know, the reason that they have these beliefs is just because they have no experience with like people of these ethnicities. Like in India, you just, you know, you've got some white people, but basically everyone is like Indian. And so, you know, I think there's just there's just a lack of like experience or familiarity that makes you scared. And I can imagine also that if you kind of think about it like in your household kind of growing up, that people who tend to be uncomfortable with anger grow up in places where we're not like taught how to deal with it. So we're taught how to deal with sadness.

There are displays of sadness, things like that. But, you know, I think it's like okay for you to feel afraid. In general, it's okay for people to be afraid of anger for a couple reasons. One is because anger oftentimes causes us to lose control. And sadness and stuff does as well. It just sounds like you're kind of like your sadness resistance is pretty high, you know? Oh. I mean, it's funny because, like, when I told people that I was going to come on here,

they're like oh you're going to cry so hard you're going to cry so much and uh i i i'm a very strange person because i i can be pretty emotional uh but when it it just depends on the situation and sometimes when i talk about reflecting upon my life and reflecting upon experiences sometimes uh i do this thing because i'm so i Okay, I'm gonna expose myself for a second. Yes, I'm emotional, and I am aware that I could be emotional. Of course, I got it from my parents. But I think there was a moment in my life where I would cry all the time.

I remember there was a long period of my life where I spent every day of my life crying, and I didn't like that period of my life. And then I went through a period of my life where I had no emotion at all after all that. It was almost as if my brain was trying to protect me. Yeah, like a protective numbness. Yeah, I couldn't take any more sadness and I couldn't take any more emotion. I felt like I was going to destroy me. So I went a period of my life without feeling anything.

I was like a zombie. And I slowly started gaining myself again through streaming. And I've cried on stream multiple times. But sometimes there's moments where it's like, especially if I feel like I'm talking about something particularly deep about myself and about my life, it's almost as if I go out of my body and I like talk about it as if I'm not in it. And I'm like observing. And sometimes it's me talking, but it doesn't necessarily.

I can't control what I'm saying because I'm at a distance where it's like I'm trying so hard to control my emotions so that I don't cry that I'm not controlling what I'm saying. And I don't know if that makes sense. That probably doesn't. I don't know. No, I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm not on autopilot because I am aware, but I sometimes when I talk about things like this, I have this fear that if I start crying, I'm not going to stop crying. So I don't want to cry.

Yeah, of course. And I'd just rather laugh. And then I'll cry later. Yep. Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. So let's just try to understand that together. Is that okay?

Yeah. So I think the first thing is that, you know, when we learn that emotions take control, of us, we develop systems to not lose control. Yeah. And one of those symptoms, one of those systems almost sounds a little bit of like dissociation. Have you heard that term before? Yes. What's your understanding of that term?

When I disassociate us. And it's almost as if I, the way that it was explained to me is I'll face something that's rather traumatic. I have a lot of trauma because of the things that happen in my life. And sometimes I sort of lose myself in my thoughts. And I tend not to focus in order to retreat into myself or out of myself so that I'm not really present in the moment as much as I should be. Yeah, so that's where I think.

So, you know, this is where we know that, For example, like through research of, you know, mental health and mental illness and trauma and stuff like that, we know that the dissociation response can be protective in nature. And it's basically like, you know, if the emotions are too much for us to handle, our mind will kind of separate ourselves from it. And I've worked with a fair number of people who, you know, even particular moments in time where they really need to dissociate to protect themselves. And generally speaking, it's like a protective mechanism is the way that I think about it. The other really interesting thing, Mouse, is that so when I was training to become a psychiatrist, it was kind of strange because out of all of my colleagues, in a sense, I was the best at being able to understand people's experience with dissociation.

So like when we would do like work with patients and stuff, and what I realized is like actually what they were describing reminded me a lot. lot of meditation. That in meditation, what happens is the awareness separates from the mind. And if we really think about dissociation, it's like you can, you sort of said that you lose control of your mind, right? You're kind of like on autopilot, but it doesn't hurt you anymore. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it's strange because like I'm aware of what I'm saying and stuff. I just, I'm just very aware that at any moment I could cry. And if I do cry, I won't stop crying. So I don't want to cry. So I'm here, but I'm here in a different way. I don't know if that even makes sense. No, so I think what happens there is that what's, so this is going to, speaking of not making sense, now it's my turn to not make sense.

So we have, we have consciousness and we have mental activity. And those are actually two separate things. So my ability to think and my ability to like observe are actually like two different things because we can observe our thoughts, right? So there's like within our mind, there's like a watcher and then there's not even within our mind actually outside of our mind. There's like a watcher. And even if we look at, for example, mental illness, what we tend to find is that the more that you lose yourself in your thoughts, the closer you get to mental illness. So if I'm able to reflect on my thoughts and recognize that my thoughts are not real, they're just thoughts. That's sort of healthy.

Does that make sense? Like if I'm feeling anxious, like my mind may think, oh my God, everyone is annoyed that I'm here, but that's not actually true. Does that sort of make sense? But the more that we start believing that, the more that we move towards mental illness. So if we think about someone who has like psychotic delusions, this is a person whose thoughts in reality have no difference whatsoever, because they 100% believe they're being possessed by the devil. Then what happens is as we, like, get healthier, so even like the most severe kind of depression is called a psychotic depression. So that's the point at which their thoughts become reality. And then, like,

as we get less depressed, we start to separate out. We still have really powerful thoughts. We have powerful emotions, but we're able to acknowledge that our thoughts are like distorted in some way. So then there's separation from like mind and awareness. Does that make sense? A little bit, yeah. Okay. If it doesn't make sense, please let me know. No, it kind of does. And then as we get sort of healthier, like we're able to sort of see like, oh, my mind isn't really thinking clearly. So this is where we talk about things like cognitive distortions or cognitive biases.

Or sometimes I think the best example is like sometimes you'll have people that after a breakup, they're like, oh my God, the world is ending. I'll never love again. Like this relationship was everything to me. I'm worthless. I'm useless. There's no point in living life. And then six months later, they're like, oh, my God, that relationship was the worst thing that ever happened to me.

I'm so glad I really dodged a bullet there. And so even if you kind of think about it, there's like, there's a certain amount of awareness that we don't have when we're kind of like one with our thoughts. Does that make sense? Yeah, kind of. Kind of. Okay. Yeah.

And so my point here. is that, you know, when you have these experiences where you kind of like don't, you don't want to lose yourself in your mind, right? So then what happens is you kind of separate out from the mind and you kind of like are able to see it, but then you kind of like retain some control. Does that sort of make sense? Yeah, kind of. Okay. I'm dying. That's okay. It's, it's kind of weird. Yeah. I'm saying. I mean, a lot of what I'm saying, this is kind of a roundabout way of saying, have you practiced meditation before? I never, it's so weird because like I never, I never have.

But I do recall sometimes in the past with my parents, like, you know, they'll bring like their prayer circle over and they'll do these long prayer sessions where, you know, I would have to be silent for a long time and they would be around. And I feel like in a way that was like a form of it, kind of. So sometimes I just think about that time when I'm very, very stressed and I just try to quiet myself. But I've never like formally done any sort of meditation. I think I'm kind of like afraid. What are you afraid of with meditation?

I don't know. I'm just always afraid of, like, being overwhelmed with my stuff. Because I feel like, I've always gotten, you know, people tell me, oh, you're so, you're so, like, you know how to verbalize what you're feeling so well and stuff. But it's like, I feel like, I only take things, I spend so much in my life being bombarded with garbage. with horrific experiences that I have trauma and now I don't I try not to

oh I'm sorry give me a second I'm so sorry it's okay I don't know I try to take things in small amounts because I feel like if I try to work on everything at once

it'll be too overwhelming for me and it scares me. Yeah, no, I think that that's something that you should respect. So here's the thing. So I think, Mouse, I think you've, how can I say this? So your internal landscape has like rough patches. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Right? No, I am very much aware. And so what I get the sense of is like in your internal landscape, I'm almost like envisioning like colonizing Mars. where like you've you've sent like expeditions where you've built these habitats that have greenery and like, you know, like you've built places on Mars that you can exist safely in function. But then there's also like the walls of the city and like outside is like the Titans. And we don't go there.

Yeah. Right. And so this is the interesting thing. So when I work with people who have a history of trauma, what I'll actually do is very careful about meditation. Because here's the thing. When we have trauma, what our mind does is it puts up all these walls to keep the Titans out. And what meditation does is bring those walls down.

Yes. And I'm very afraid. Right? So I think that's where there's even specific kinds of meditations that are specifically geared towards people with trauma. But the whole point is like in meditation, we become one with ourselves and like the barriers of the mind get broken down and we like achieve this high love. of consciousness and like transcend the mind and like all this cool stuff man but the whole point is like in trauma our body's like no no no or our mind is like let's put up these walls let's keep the titans obey don't knock the walls down and so sometimes what i found and is is i mean i not so much

in my personal practice but when i work with people who have meditated with other people what we found is that when you create a vacuum in the mind the trauma can come up and then you can lose control so so i think it's actually completely healthy in a sense for you to be wary of meditation, I would trust your instincts because your mind is going to be sending you information. And it's like we're not ready for those titans and like there's an anger titan out there.

But I think over time, the one thing that I did want to share with you is I think when you're ready for it, I think that you will find that you are an adept meditator and that a lot of what you've essentially stumbled through or work through, at some point meditation may help you do, better. But not.

But not necessarily, not yet if you're not ready. You don't have to rush it. I have like a lot of like, um, um, uh, aversions to rushing into stuff like that because it's just a lot. Yep. And it's a lot. It's a lot. And I feel like I've slowly been working on things, but it's just very difficult.

Um, Because at the same time, as much as I've improved a lot and I feel like a lot of aspects of my life has improved, I'm still kind of going through it and going through the motions. It's like even more stuff. But then I have to like go through the stuff that's happening now and then deal with stuff that happened before. And it's just like, I'm not ready. So yeah, 100%. So, can I give you just one piece of like supporting advice thing? So there's there's one general.

that I tend to think about in terms of like whether you need to confront your problems or not, right? Because everyone's like, so like many years ago, you were at this point where you're like, I'm tired of being lonely. I'm tired of having no one having expectations about me and like I'm going to do something with my life. I'm not content with the way of things. And you started to like make a change in your life, right? With me? Yeah. Yeah. So when do you need to do that? When do you need to sit down and grapple with yourself and like wrestle with yourself and like send expeditions beyond the wall like when do we need to send expeditions beyond the wall well that depends on how things are going on the inside so if the trajectory of your life is moving in the right direction

you don't need to go sending things beyond the wall so what i'm hearing from you is that your life like you're you're growing as a person you're like you know you've discovered being a v-tuber you've discovered this awesome community your health is getting a little bit better. You're working at it. You're like making friends. You're feeling less lonely. You're feeling good about yourself. Like, you know, learning how to be with your parents in a different way, taking care of them. So the direction that you're moving in is positive, right? Fair? Yeah. Okay. So if it is, don't mess with it. Don't, you don't need to go confronting anger or any of this other stuff. Like, you know, you can just let sleeping dogs lie for now. And if at some point,

you find that you're unsatisfied with the direction of your life or if you feel like there's a particular bottleneck. So for example, like if you're unable to trust or unable to love or like unable to like, you know, if all those weird anger suppression crap is like causing problems in your relationships or things like that, that's when you need to go send an expedition beyond the wall. But for now it sounds like you're, you know,

you're on your journey and it's moving in the right direction. So like I wouldn't rock the boat. Yeah. I feel like I might have to start having an expedition soon because I have realized that due to past trauma and stuff like that, I do as much as I love making friends. And I've said this on my stream before that I am a extrovert that has been forced to live an introvert's life. and it really, it really, like, took a toll on me mentally and emotionally that, uh, I, I, I think, like, all those things combined and the fact that I had to, like, change my, my lifestyle and stuff, I have a little bit of an issue with trust when it comes to meeting new people. And it's a little bit of a block and it's something that in the future, I'm not really ready to work on. it yet, but I'm meeting people, certain individuals in my life, that I really respect them, and I have begun to care about them a lot. And I want to begin to start trusting because I want to be

able to, I want to be able to share myself more with them and share more about what I've been through my life and be more open so that they can understand me better and understand why I am the way I am. And I don't think I'm ready quite yet, but I know that I'm going to have to face it eventually because it's just I'm getting closer to people. And there are just some people that I feel like if I continue to get closer to them, it's harder for me to communicate with them. And I don't really want to have that sort of block when the time comes, you know. I don't even know if this makes sense.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Do you want me to tell you what I heard? What did you hear? So the first thing is, I was like, it's okay, Mouse. You don't have to confront your anger. You don't need to send expeditions. And you're like, well, actually. Actually.

Maybe we're coming up on the time where we need to send an expedition. Yeah. So that's good because that's your internation. voice kind of telling you. Okay, like maybe we do need to deal with this stuff. But here's what I would really think about, Mouse, is that, so if we think about what makes it hard for you to open up and trust people, do you have a sense of that?

It's hard to explain because there's so many different, like, reasons. But, okay, I think my main reason is, this is going to sound kind of fucked up. but because of the fact that I never had any expectations on me to a certain point I was also very much aware and was very much as much as my parents loved me so much and they care about me but they were also very open with sharing with me that being close to people with my condition me having to live the life that I live, it's very stressful on others and it's very difficult.

And that kind of made me have trust issues because they were telling me, they told me. But also, it's a conclusion that I came to myself as well, where it's like, it takes a lot to be close to me. It takes a lot to be able to share stuff because I feel like, oh man, this is going to be difficult to say. And this is what I probably might. It's just, I just have issues where I feel like people won't want to go through the lengths that is required in order to get close to me and people will leave and um i've experienced in the past people that i used to be close to and uh when uh shit gets hard and uh their my life is very uncertain uh i've had people stop coming around and stop checking up checking up

checking up on me. And it's, I know that it's very emotionally draining and it's a lot of stress and a lot of strain. And it's something in my heart and in my mind that I said, I will never force anyone to go through the pain of being my friend. I would, I would never force that upon anybody because I am aware that it's very stressful and it's a lot. So I, in turn, am afraid of trusting people because I'm just afraid that if I do get close to somebody and I do give them the trust and tell them, hey, so this is what's going on, this is what's wrong with me,

this is what I've been through. I'm afraid they're just going to be like, yikes. No thank you. I don't know if that means anything, if that means. Yeah, Mouse, I think that's, that means a lot, but I know this is going to sound kind of weird. Respectfully, I disagree. I know. I figured you would.

Do you know what I disagree with? What do you disagree with? I disagree with, so here's the thing. So there you are being considerate, right? Because you're like, oh my God, being friends with Mouse is hard. So I'm not going to hold anyone to that expectation. Right? Which is like you being.

compassionate person. You're like, well, how can I ask anyone to sign up to deal with me? Right? I could never. That's got to change, you know? Oh, God. You should absolutely, man. Like, I know it's, you don't have to do it today, but at some point, to be blunt, that's the price that people need to pay for being your friend and you need to be okay with having

people pay that price. Because here's the wild thing, you're worth it. Oh. Right. Like, it's okay for, like, you're, so just because your life makes other people, being, being friends with you makes other people's lives harder. That's actually okay. Okay. Right.

You may not be able to let that sink in now, but that's, that's part of life. Like, we don't, you know, the people that we're friends with are not people because they just make our life like net positive. Right? that's not what friendship is. Yeah. It's like, yeah, you know, like part of, and this is where, I mean, I sort of get it, right? Because you don't want to put anyone through that. But the whole point is that, you know, I get that.

But also, like, you know, that's okay. Like, that's something that, you know, don't make the same mistake with people that people made with you, which is like don't hold them to any expectations. Like just because you're sick and we talked about how almost damaging it is for people to like give up hope on what you're capable of. And that's also where like if you give up hope on what people are capable of, then you're never going to give them a chance to like show you that you kind of like are worth it, you know? Oh man. But that's it's going to be hard. Don't get me wrong.

It's going to be terrifying. Oh God. Yeah, I know. Right. So like it's going to be hard to like like approach someone and be. like, yeah, you know, my life is shit right now. It's going to be a very emotionally draining. But you owe me this, bitch.

I had a friend of mine basically be like, why not just, just trust me, it's fine. I'm okay. I can handle it. And I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, you need to stop. I'm willing to go through this. I'm okay.

And still in my head, I'm just like, oh, God, they're going to. Yeah, so that's where, you know, that person also needs to understand and both y'all need to understand when they say, I can handle it, like they may not be able to. But this is the important thing. Handling it doesn't mean, like, that shouldn't be the, the whole point of being friends with someone and, like, loving someone is that you share with things, them shit that they can't handle. But, like, that's okay. Like the prerequisite shouldn't be whether they can handle it or not. The prerequisite should be like, you're just sharing it if they can't handle it. Like that's okay.

Like that's just what life is, right? You're not always able to handle everything. Yeah. I know it's kind of weird, but you'll get there. I want to get there eventually. Yeah, you'll get there. Just go slow. Don't send everyone beyond the wall.

It's dangerous out there. Yeah, no. You'll get eaten by the Titans, dude. they'll just have their like manic grins while they stuff you into their mouth and just gobble you up, you know. But I think at some point like, you know, I get that it's terrifying. The other thing that I just like to share with you is I wonder how much of it's, you know, you've mentioned that you've lost control in the past. And so I wonder how much of it's hard for you to trust other people.

Actually because you're afraid that like if you cross a particular line with, with them, you'll lose control. And then you'll be subjecting them to all of the crap. You know, and you don't want to do that to them. No. Which is where I say gently, fuck them. Let them have it. It's just, it's just like this thing because it's like my whole life I felt like a burden

to my family that like I feel like I'm a burden to people. Yeah. Anyone involved. Go for it. That's that's that's that's whole point of being friends with someone. Oh God. Right? Like friendship, the whole point of friendship is that it's not like a, you know,

it's not like a net positive interaction in that way. Like that's not, friendship is about, you know, like, you know, go for it. It's okay. I mean, I know it doesn't feel that way, but anyway, it. Friendship is not about people like just making, your life better in terms of like money and happiness and stuff like that. The whole point is that you know, you're you're going to be a burden to people and like that's okay. And like people sign up for that. And that's what you do is someone's friend. Right. Like think about like the

reverse position and then I'll stop talking. But you know, if someone was a burden to you, like how would you be like, oh man, like you're such a burden to me. Like I'm not going to see you anymore. Ah, I could never. Absolutely. And that's what. where like feeling loved and feeling accepted, mouse, you got to give people the chance. And here's the thing. If all you ever do, so I was working with someone who is very wealthy. And like the problem is that when you're very wealthy, like you don't know if people are friends with you because of your wealth or because of like you, right?

Makes sense? But here's the thing. If all you ever give your friends is just like the positive version of you and you never burden them, how are you ever going to know like who they accept? That's true. Right? So you got to, you got to give them the scuffed version. And then like, oh, God.

And then, like, that's when you're really going to feel love because, like, when you're scuffed and there are people like, yeah, I'll take it anyway. Yeah, I'm really scuffed. Right? But if all you give people is polished, like, you're never going to give them a chance to accept you. Oh, God. Yeah, I get that you're terrified, which is fine. Like, you don't need to force yourself into it. I'm just letting you know.

When that day comes, like, you know, we're all scuffed. That's true. Yes. Sorry. Oh, my God. I'm internally, like, freaking out now. Yeah, sorry about that. It's okay. It's okay. This is good. No, no. I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I'm not really sorry, but I should feel sorry. I felt like the right thing to say.

No, it's good. It's good. I'm excited for you personally. Like, I'm not, I don't feel regret. honestly, I feel excited, I feel hopeful. I feel like somewhere along the way, I think what you really have to give is different from what you think you have to give, which obviously makes me a dumb ass because you know better your life than I do. But I think part of what you've demonstrated through what you've done is a V-tuber is that when you authentically share a piece of yourself that is a little bit scoffed, is a little bit messed up, that's actually what causes people to respond to you, right? Because so many of your experiences about being an outsider, you didn't

show up and start saying like, oh my God, I'm such an awesome person and I have so many friends. No, it's like, I'm an outsider, I'm sick, I can't live a regular life. You know, sucks to be me. I'm a, I'm going to do the best that I can, but I can't make any promises that it's going to be perfect. And that's interestingly enough, what's so damn authentic and like what is so damn engaging for people. Oh, thank you. I say that every day when I wait. I just say I just want to do my best. That's all. That's all I want to do.

I want to do my best. That's really what you owe people. You don't owe people a good job. What you owe people is doing your best. And I really hope for you that at some point in the future you're able to have friends who can accept you for doing your best instead of doing a good job. They already do. It's just I have to accept that they do.

Yeah. That's on you, dude. It's not on that. I have wonderful friends now that they, that they, they're just so, I always get surprised at the kindness that I receive because I just don't expect people to be kind and I don't expect people to be so, so nice to me. And like, even, even, um, even, so I belong to a company called Vy Shojo as a YouTuber company, uh, with other girls. and even a CEO who's our boss he's so nice to me and it just blows my mind that people are so nice and even though you know they they know me and they learn about me that they're still so kind to me and they're just willing to help me and they just want they just want they just want to be my friend and it's it blows my mind that anybody would ever want that uh with me because i just uh i never felt like i was uh good enough worthy enough to have friends and to have a life and uh i'm just

still trying to come the grips with that right now it's it's it's uh it's hard i'm i'm i feel like i'm coming to turns with it now, but it's just, it's just, I just never expected any of this to happen. So it's, uh, ah, you got me. Fuck. No, no, no, I'm not, I didn't do anything. Oh no. I was, I lacked compassion and, and pushed you into places. I didn't do anything. This is you, dude. I know.

Can't blame me for this. Not my fault. Oh, God. Oh, no. Yeah. So all that that I just said. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it makes, and that's just where, you know, I think it's going to be confusing for a while. But that's like, you know, I think, yeah, I think you just said it well. I have nothing to say. I got nothing. You know, it's just, it's going to take a little, little time for you to really. So here's what I will say. Okay. So you know how earlier, like, when life was hard and, like, you were like, oh my God, like, I can't live regular life. And you had to, like, accept that. Yeah.

Accepting doom in your life is way easier than, like, accepting that you deserve love. That's true. Accepting that you deserve nothing in life and letting go of all your expectations is the easy part. It's true. Accepting that people that you deserve love, despite the fact that your life may not amount to anything, is like so much. much harder. So I think this is just, you know, you're just at the end of Eldon Ring now. This is just the last boss. So it's going to be tough. You're going to wipe like over and over and over again. And that's just the, you know, at some point you just got to get good. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, God. Yeah. I feel like I've been trying to get good my whole life. Yeah, dude. I, I hear you. And that's just, that's just life. That's been rough. You can't, you can't mimic tear your way through everything. No, I wish I could. Yeah, no, it's, you know. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, Oh. Yeah, I wish that were the case, but it isn't, you know. Oh, I wish, I wish. I always, I always say stuff like thought I was safe, man. It was, I could, uh, if only I could have been this or that or this or that, but it's like, I'm not, I'm this. Yep.

And this is. And that's okay. Absolutely. Right. Ah. Oh, goodness. I'm not crying. I'm not crying either.

Look at my face. I think it's, if you're crying a little bit, that's okay. But, you know. Yeah. It's a good. It's okay. You got this. You just got to wipe a few more times. It's all. Yeah.

You'll get it. You'll get there. It's just a little dehydration. It's okay. Well. Oh, God. I think, I, are we done? I don't know.

I don't know. I feel like this is the end. There's no. I don't know. You okay? Yeah, I'm okay. I don't I feel like this is this is where I don't think we can push past this maybe is what I mean to say yeah I I feel like I'm very I feel very exposed right now

yeah yeah I mean that's why we have to like because we don't want to keep go you get what I'm saying like yeah so I think we yeah oh my God I uh did we overstep did we No, no, not at all. Not at all. Not at all. That would, you know, that's not good. No, no, not at all. I, you know, of course there's just things that I just can't say.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you know, we're good. We're good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Well, any, any last kind of thoughts or comments? I laugh a lot when I'm very nervous. And I'm very, I'm very laughable. I'm a laughable person. I'm a laugh person. Yeah. That's, that's totally fine.

Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say. I won't cry. Miles, thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I think, if I can just offer like some simple closing thoughts, I think it's like, it's really fascinating because in so much of life,

we wear a mask on our real face, right? And we don't actually, like, connect with people or we don't show authenticity. And I think what you've sort of managed to do is kind of rediscover who you are through, like, being a V-tuber and, like, connecting with people and sharing, like, so much of your struggles, which I think a lot of people actually relate to, especially the stuff of sort of being an outsider, being denied, in a sense, a regular life. and sort of having to work through some of that loss of expectation and sort of really having to work through like, okay, I can't live a normal life. So what am I going to do? Am I just going to like, you know,

people have sort of almost given up on you. And like even doctors are sort of telling you like our goal is making you comfortable, which I'm sort of hearing you weren't really willing to accept that. No. And on the one hand, you had to like give up on a normal life. And interestingly enough, I think, what's sort of like really inspiring about that is that by giving up on a normal life, what you've really allowed yourself to do is carve a pathway to living your life,

which may not be normal, but that doesn't mean that it isn't wonderful or beautiful in some way. And that's really what I'm taking away from this conversation. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're very welcome. Thank you very much. Oh, God.

No, thank you. I appreciate the time that we talked together today. This has been very nice. I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm honored to be here. Likewise. And best of luck to you.

And, you know, seriously, like, good luck, because I think you're going to need it beyond the wall. Yeah. I do. All right. Take care of house. Okay. Thank you.