HealthyGamerGG - Asmongold, are you proud of yourself? | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

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Awesome. Okay, yeah, things have been, they've been a little bit up and down, but it's been, I guess, all right. I mean, the new games are getting released and I'm excited to play, so that's at least one positive, right? Yeah, what are you looking for to playing? Burning Crusade. Unfortunately, it's getting released a bit earlier than I would have hoped for, and a few other games, Ashes of Creation, New World, other MMOs, basically. Yeah, New World is Amazon Games' MMO? Yeah, yeah, it is. And when is that coming out? I actually don't know. I think it's August.

Okay. Is there like a beta or? Yeah, there was. We played it for a while and the game was fun for like three days and it sucked. And so I'm hoping that when the game actually comes out, it'll be fun for at least five. Pretty much why not? Yeah. It's gaming in 2021.

What can I say? What is gaming in 2021? Whenever they try to milk you out of all the money possible, while simultaneously putting in the littlest amount of effort possible. Yeah, I was pretty excited about Magic Legends. I don't know if you tried playing it. I didn't play it, but I played Magic the Gathering a lot whenever I was younger. So I heard about it. What did you hear?

I just heard it was an ARPG. And I didn't hear any good or bad things about it. I just heard people said it came out. And then I never heard about it again. So you can kind of put two and two together there. And, yeah. Yeah, I thought it was super cool. Like the conceptual design behind the game I was super excited about.

Like, the idea is that you've got like a deck, right? So it's sort of like a deck builder. But it's like in an ARPG format. So you can have like four skills at any given time. But once you use a card, you like lose the spell and it goes back into your, and then you have to like reshuffle and stuff. So there's like a lot of deck building and stuff. So it seems like a super cool ARPG.

I was a, I was always hoping that, like, I mean, I paid a lot of attention to magic, like, for many years whenever I played it, and I was in, like, high school and in the college. So, like, anytime that something cool like that happens, I'll kind of be interested in it, but I just kind of expected to hear more about it later, and I just never did. So, you know, that's usually the way it goes. Yeah, I heard that, you know, I think what may have happened is there was like a, there's like, there's like, there were four classes and there's a fifth class that you can unlock. but the class is only unlockable through micro transactions and then on top of that the micro transactions are RNG. So the class is a drop from a loot box.

So people were spending like $500 and still like not getting the class. See, that's like I remember Apex Legends had something like that and it was just like you got a little dagger for one of the characters. But like this is a whole class and it's 500 dollars. That's exactly the shit that I'm talking about, man. Like I said that a, I said a game should make you want to waste your time and not just waste your time. And I feel like all the games now,

they don't just waste your time and your money. It's just, it's sad. Yeah, man. Yeah, I feel like the, I don't know, like maybe it's like I'm getting older or something. but like the the allure to it and the smoke and mirrors behind the ways that they keep you playing the game are pretty much just mirrors now. You can just see right. It's just right there.

Yeah. Yeah. So you said you're excited about Burning Crusade. Yeah, yeah. Like, wow, classic Burning Crusade, right? Yeah, that's right. And then you've been playing a lot of Shadowlands recently or? Yeah.

How do you feel about Shadowlands? wins. Not good. I feel like, you know, I've played a game for 15 years and the people that are running the game are ruining it. And I feel like I've wasted my time playing it for the first time in like 15 years. It's sad. How are they ruining it? By just not knowing, I don't think they're doing what I would do. I think they're just not really putting in the effort that they need to. I think they're just trying to kind of compel people to play the game longer rather than enjoy the game. If that makes sense. Yeah, I love your way with language.

Like compel versus enjoy. Yes, yes. And then you said also that a game should make you want to waste your time, not waste your time. Yeah, it shouldn't just waste your. Yeah, yeah, you want to spend all day playing the game, not you have to. Yeah. And that's the way it used to be. And like, I always wonder, right, is like, is this because I'm older?

is it because the game is worse? And it's like you can never really dissect the two because you can't experience them in some sort of controlled environment. But it does feel a lot different than it did. You can't experience them in a controlled environment. Yeah. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Well, yeah, yeah. So like, for example, if I go and I play a game that I used to play whenever I was a kid, I can't really go back and experience that for the first time. It's like you can never step in the same river twice, right? And it's kind of the same paradigm where if I go back and I play Super Mario World for the 800th time, it's not going to be the same experience as I had. Remember, I was five years old playing it and getting upset and mad because I couldn't

beat the game. So it's like, is it because is the attachment to the games and the drive to play them diminishing because of the quality of the games or is it diminishing because of a different point in my life? You see what I mean? Yeah. I'm wondering if you're turning into a boomer. Me too. Right?

Me too. Yeah. Right. Back in the day. Back in my day, we didn't have any micro-transactions. It was just the good times. You bought the game from Blockbuster and you took it home and you played it for three days. That's how it was for me too.

Let me tell you what. What happened is you'd go to a game and you'd purchase it. Imagine that. The game was yours. You didn't need none internet. No. To play it. It was great.

It really was. Yeah, I didn't need to be... A single player game didn't need to be connected to their multiplayer server. I could just play it by myself when my cow stepped on my Ethernet cable. I could just keep playing. What the hell's a battle pass? I never heard of that. Yeah, I know.

I know all too damn well. It's sad. I don't know where it's going to go. Yeah, man. But yeah, it might be, it might just be being a boomer. I don't know. I think that's a big part of it, at least. Yeah, so I kind of feel that way, too.

Like, I wonder if it's the boomer within me. But I do feel like what's happening, kind of like what you, I think you captured it well, that a lot of game designers are trying to make a game that's, like, you know, that you're compelled to play as opposed to enjoyable. Yeah. play. Can I just share like a bizarre experience I had like about a year ago? Absolutely. So I was at like, so I used to be in Boston and sometimes I would go to like business networking events.

Ooh. And so sometimes like at these business networking events like, you know, you'd meet people who are like, you know, in different industries. And so like I met like this MBA who was interested in the gaming industry. He was like, yeah, like I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm. I'm like, I work in the gaming industry. And I was like, awesome. What games do you like? And he was like, oh, I don't like games. I don't play them.

I was like, what interest do you? And he was like, oh, like, you know, I think that the monetization opportunities are like really fantastic. And I was like, yeah, yeah, he works at Activision now. I know who that is. Yeah. I was like, I was like, this is, they actually exist. Like people are, and you know what it reminds me of actually is, is, can I tell you another random story?

I guess I'm the one telling stories today. So when I was training to become a psychiatrist, I had this eye-opening lecture from this absolutely brilliant guy. And his name is Dr. Freudenreich. And so we were talking about medicine and the practice of medicine within like medicine and health care. So, you know, I'm a doctor. I practice medicine. But in my job, it's like health care.

There's like a hospital, there's insurance, there's billing, there's administration. you know, all this kind of stuff. And he's like, you know, if you don't like your job and you don't like health care, the problem is that, you know, 20 years ago, a hospital system had something called the forms committee. Can you imagine what the forms committee does? They probably process forms. Yes, absolutely. That's literally it. Yeah. So they process forms. And the committee actually makes the forms. So there's a group of people who decides, what are the forms that people need to fill out? And when the forms committee was launched,

they asked doctors to be a part of it. And can you imagine what the doctors said? No, please no. Absolutely. We hate paperwork. We hate it. I don't want to, I didn't go to a medical school

and train for seven years to become a neurosurgeon and devote over a decade of my life so I could figure out what forms need to be filled out. I did it to do neurosurgery on people with brain cancer. And so there were no doctors on the forms committee. And then what happened is all these people decided which forms the neurosurgeon has to fill out. And then we lost the battle. And this is what's happening in the gaming industry now is that like, you know, we're,

you know, we've got people who aren't gamers who are designing video games. That's just about right. And they just necessitate a need for themselves. Because is like if they, they'll always come out with new forms or new things that you have to do because they don't want to, you know, show how useless they are.

I think that happens a lot too. It's like they're kind of creating, it's creating a problem and then presenting themselves as a solution for it. And I think that happens with a lot of games too. Can you share a little bit more about that?

How do you know that? I mean, like it's a lot of things. I think that really like, one example of this is like in the game I play a lot World Warcraft like they will release like some sort of you know like let's say it's a way to get really good armor or to like make your legendary weapons or something like that and you will have to repeat a process over and over and

over in a way that is transparently just a method of extending your playtime rather than making you enjoy the content so you do this over and over and over and over, and then later on, like, maybe a year later, they will make it easier in the way that people initially wanted it to be one year ago. And it's just, it's just crazy. And like it, as I said, it kind of lifts the, it pulls the curtain away and you can just see all the machinery in the back. It's like the Wizard of Oz, right? You just see them in the little room broadcasting. And it's no longer this like experience that you have. The willing suspension of disbelief is removed, and you just stuck there like a rat in a maze.

It sucks. It sounds terrifying. I mean, you know, I feel like I got to share this. I'm hopeful, though. So I think like at the end of the day, like, did you play Hades? I played it for maybe 20 minutes. I had fun for those 20 minutes, so. So I think Hades is a great example.

Like, I absolutely love the game, and I think it's like an example. What I'm terrified of is the AAA clones of Hades. Oh, yeah. Because they're coming. Oh, no doubt. I mean, absolutely. And like the game, it's not like I stopped playing it because I didn't want to. I just stopped playing it because I had to go back to streaming and that that's why.

And I haven't really had time to play it. But yeah, it was a really fun game. I enjoyed it. It was very clean. It was very well designed. And there's some things that are just kind of missing. Did you play Valheim? I kind of got the same experience with that.

I love Valheim. Yeah, yeah. And that's something made by five people, right? And it just feels like, you know, these big game companies, I told people that they're, instead of too big to fail, it's too big to succeed. That's really the way I feel. It's like they're, it takes them forever to do anything. It's like overproduced and they have like this fixation on, you know, the lighting on a character's

nose rather than the gameplay that everybody goes with. Yeah, I remember hearing about Dragon Age Origins 3. Yeah. So I don't know if you played the original Dragon Age, but the original Dragon Age, oh, we just got a $1,000 donation. Holy shit. And it seems like, as someone who struggles with mental health, what you're doing is invaluable. Thank you. I'm complaining about video, guys.

I know. I was going to say, I don't know. So the funny thing now is like, I don't know if that person. is talking about what we're talking about now? Yeah, it's just like a general statement. Yeah, or is it? So now I'm genuinely confused whether, you know, talking about how depressing and predatory the video game landscape now is,

is like with the public good that we're doing? Or is it when we talk about like depression and anxiety and learning to love yourself? It's probably just, it's like somebody is saying it besides them. And it's like, okay, you know, there's a guy that graduated from Harvard who thinks the same damn thing that I did, I'm not crazy. You know, I think that's really what it is. I remember every time that I hear somebody else saying what you're saying, it always is a little bit validating for me too.

Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much for the support, folks. Yeah. So, you know, just a couple of things. Like, I think that, like, you know, I hear what you're saying in terms of activation being predatory and whatnot. But, like, part of the thing, though, Asman, is I still think that, like, these AAA game

companies, like, actually make really amazing. games. Like, I loved Warcraft 3, loved Starcraft. SC2 was like, okay. Yeah. And like, you know, wow was amazing. I think Overwatch is like genuinely like a very good game. You know, people may disagree, but like I think a lot of the, you know, the big evil people actually do make really amazing games. I agree, but I think that it's a very sad state of affairs that most of the examples that you gave were over 10 years ago. But we'll say that, I'm sure we'll say that about Diablo Immortal, right? Won't we add that to the list? I think that Diablo Immort, yeah, that's a tough one, isn't it? That's a very tough one.

And like, that's one of the things I just wish they made a PC port for it. I'd play it if it was on a PC, just see what it's like. But they don't even do that for some reason. I have no idea why. Yeah. Yeah. So are we just talking about, are we like, boomers reminiscing about the old Well, it's a metaphor, right? Because the games are, like, it's what I spend my time doing. And it's like, I've played games all my life and I enjoy them and I don't really enjoy them as much now. And it's like, why is that? Is it because I'm older? Is it because the games are worse? It's, and that's what I'm in. It's like hard to decide. It's like kind of like, I'm 30 now. And I tell my, I say that all the time because I still can't even come to terms with it. It's, scary and I'm I've done this for like basically I've streamed and sat in my room all day, every day and played video games for pretty much my whole adult life. And I've loved it the whole time. It's been absolutely amazing.

But it feels like it's coming to an end. It feels like it's it's like ending in a way. I don't know how I can really describe it. It's sad. Can I just sit with that for a second? You know, when you say that, what comes to mind? Have you played Dark Souls? Many times.

So you know, like, the story behind Dark Souls, which is that the flame is going out? Yeah. That's sort of like the image that I get. Yeah, I mean, I hope I don't end up like King Gwyn. But, yeah, I could see that. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a... And I think it's just also like I've kind of done.

You kind of look like Quinn. Look, if I get a lot, if my hair keeps getting longer and I've gotten a few gray hairs. Yeah, it's getting there, man. It's getting there. Asking bold. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's right.

I, oh my God, that's scary to think. And I did actually choose that ending too. Oh, no. So yeah. I mean, it's definitely scary because like I feel like, I've done pretty much everything that I wanted to do, and I've accomplished a lot of things I've wanted to do. And it's like, kind of I'm aimless in a way because I don't have the same motivation to really do anything. Like, I do, you know, I go through the same motions and I do

the same stuff, but it's not with the same level of enthusiastic, deterministic, it's like determinism that I used to have. It's just kind of, I'm doing it because it's what I like doing and it's what I do. It's not even really what I like doing, it's what I do. And it's weird for me to think back and think that it's been 10 years that I've been doing this.

And I don't ever want it to end, but it is. It's like I can't stop getting older. I can't stop this happening. And I feel like also like I'm, I'll be honest, I'm sure you probably have had the same feeling like, You ever play a game that you were really good at whenever you were a kid and now you suck at it? Yes. Yeah.

I've also done the opposite, where there were games that I used to think were really hard and I go back and play them now. And I was like, I don't understand how I ever had difficulty with this game. I understand that a lot. Yeah, it was a little bit of those two, especially some Super Nintendo games. Yeah. I was a dumbass kid. I had no idea what I was too. and yeah it's interesting i think the game that comes to mind the most is um dota so i've been playing

dota for over a decade and like i was bad at dota and then for a while i was like pretty good at dota like i was probably like you know somewhere in the top 10 or 20 percent of the player base yeah and then you know like respectable like nowhere you're pro but like respectable and now i'm in like the bottom 50 percent and and that yeah And I've been one of these guys that like, no matter what game, like you know how they're like some people who are just good at games, right? And like you can pick up any game. And within, you know, month of playing it,

you'll be like in the top 20% of the player base. Yeah. And there were always the nobs that you would prey on. The game after game after game. Absolutely. You play the play those people for six months. They're going to just, they're never going to get better.

Yep. And I feel like I'm transitioning into that noob stage. Yeah. That's, that's what I see. it's happening. Yeah, it's, uh, it's, yeah, I, I, go ahead. No, go out, go for it.

Um, well, that's kind of the way that I feel, right? Is that it's like, I feel like I'm losing that thing that I was, I was good at. And I'm not good at it really that much anymore. And it's just kind of like, for a lot of people, it's not, like, it wouldn't really matter. You know what I mean? Because it's just, it's just a video game. But I think what really hits me hard with it. is like thinking that it's like something as like a greater thing.

Like if I'm just not good at the game anymore, it's whatever. But if I'm not good at the game anymore because I'm getting older, that's scary. What's scary about that? Because whenever you get older, you die. Is that what you feel like you're doing? Well, I mean, everybody is. You're doing it all the time. I mean, like, of course, to an extent, yeah.

It just feels like it feels like I, like there aren't really. as many good things to look forward to anymore, if that makes sense. How long have you felt that way? I don't know, maybe three years, two years. And so it sounds to me like you're kind of living your life on autopilot. I mean, in a way, yeah. Or it's like kind of you're waiting for the next thing to go wrong. That's, that caught me off guard.

That's not what I was expecting you to say. What do you mean you're waiting? Has a lot gone wrong? Yeah, I mean, well, it's not, it's not something that just happens overnight. It's just something that kind of, it's either like a slow deterioration or it could be something that just kind of happens, right? Of course. And it's one of those things where it's kind of hard to pinpoint when it happens. But if you go back and you look two years like before, like in the past, you'd see that things are clearly better.

and there was no real day where things changed, but it was just like a slow decay. Yeah, that sounds bleak. How were things for you, how were things for you three years ago? Probably a little bit better, right? I mean, I had a classic wow to look forward to. That was cool.

And then, I mean, it's like a lot of little things, right? because back then I was like really excited about uh doing my stream and and being very successful with my stream and I still care about that a lot but like at that time I didn't I never had the success that I have now so it wasn't like I still had that to work towards if that makes sense so it seems like you you had a goal yeah I had a goal I have no goals um like I have like I guess I mean to an extent I do but the goals that I used to always have like this might sound insane okay but i used to honestly wake up in the morning and feel completely like fulfilled and satisfied with the idea that i'm going to play world of warcraft today

and i'm going to farm for some item that i want and i'm going to feel great about it and i'm going to go to bed that night and i'm going to feel like a winner and i used to really feel that way it was great and now it's just not the same how do you feel now like i wasted my damn time Like, that's the way I feel. It's always my... I feel like I don't know what to do. I don't know if I... Like, what it is.

And I've tried to find, like, other things. I made an org company with people, friends of mine, and that's gone really well. It's gone actually surprisingly well. And that's been great. But there needs to be something for me personally that I have to work towards. Can you tell me about the org?

Yeah. Basically, I made... I made an organization called O.TK, One True King, with myself, S-Fenn, you know, S-Fand, Miz Kiff, Tips Out, and my other friend, Rich. We brought on Nick Palom, NMP, as well. And we have people that we obviously hire, and we put on different events, and we just kind of make content together. Oh, interesting. It stands for One-True King?

One-true king, yeah. I thought it was one-turn kill. So we actually The funny thing about that is we actually found out It also stands for over the knee Which is a sexual fetish We didn't know that until after we announced the org Okay

A little fun fun little What is it? Rule 42? I think anything can be 32 32 Anything can be a sexual fetish right? Yeah We actually thought about as a joke selling paddles So we'll see

but yeah, I think that was like, that's kind of like a next step thing for me too, right? Is to kind of have that thing that you can kind of work on beyond just playing video games and beyond that, something that's kind of bigger than yourself. And that has been, it's been very stressful for me to have to do that. And especially as somebody who is pretty much a hermit. I like being alone all the time and now I have to talk to people all the time for those different things. And it's good, but it's also exhausting for a person. person who likes to be alone.

You want me to call you Asman Gold, Asman, or what? We just do Zach. It's fine. Okay. Zach, can I have a second to think? Yeah, sure. Do you mind if I ask you a... I'm just debating this, because there's something that my mind is curious about. But I'm wondering if maybe like asking this question is embarrassing.

I was debating maybe asking it to you in private, but it's something that you had publicly spoken about on stream before. and I find myself kind of wondering. Yeah, go ahead. Did you ever go see that dentist and get your teeth taken care of? Yeah, I did. I still need to get more of them taken care of. Absolutely.

It takes me, like, my teeth are fucked up, right? And so there's a lot of work that I need to have done. And with COVID and everything, I have been a little bit slower on doing it. But yes, I've had a number of my teeth fixed and taken care of. Now I have to do, I think probably two or three, three more visits. How do you feel about that? Well, there's a funny thing about that.

So whenever I was younger, I used to always eat my food really fast and then it would make me sick to my stomach because I ate my food so fast. And then all my teeth fell out and I couldn't do it anymore. And I stopped getting sick after eating my food. And now that I got my teeth back, I'm eating my food again and I'm getting sick again. So that's basically where we're at. And there's, I don't know, I don't know if there's really a moral to that story or anything like that, but it's basically, it's basically what it is. And it's not like I, it's not like an eating disorder. I just eat food very fast, right? They just want to eat the food. Like, eating food is like a, it's like a daily quest in a video game where like, I just want to get it out of the way as fast as I can so I can move on to actually playing daily quests in video games. That's basically, yeah.

Yeah. Get my R.L. Daily quests out of the way so that I can do my virtual dailies. Yeah, I'm in max it. And, you know, sometimes it doesn't turn out very well. But yeah, I mean, I do. I do. I'm glad that I've gotten them fixed more. And it's kind of, it was really bad. Like there were a few times where I stopped streaming because one of my teeth broke or fell out or something like that. And you could tell whenever I was streaming. And it just kind of, there are a lot of things that I have no problem with people looking at me and seeing, but that was one of them that was just a little bit too much. Okay.

So I'm going to just kind of think out loud for a second because I'm noticing, you know, potentially a direction of this conversation. That's a little bit aligned with what we usually do. So I know we started talking about like, you know, gaming and being, you know, boomers. And back in the day, like, you know, back in the day, like, you didn't have. a server that gave you matchmaking. You had to go out and find your match yourself. You had to make friends, yeah. And it was great.

You had to create a custom lobby, and you never knew who would show up and whether they would be a hacker. And there was no reporting system for hackers. Xbox Live didn't give a shit. Yeah. Yeah, I remember it all too well. So we kind of started out there,

and I'm noticing that you're someone who's quite driven, and that you used to look forward to the day. Like you'd wake up and you'd play wow and you'd really enjoy it. And it was like it was an exciting and fulfilling life. You were also somewhat, you know, skilled or lucky and became like, you know, successful through that. Yeah. And then like and then just like in the world of Dark Souls, like, you know, there's only a limited amount of fuel. Yeah.

And the flame starts to dim. And then like now what I'm kind of here. from you is like you don't have goals, like you don't have that zest that used to drive you. Well, there's, yeah. I was going to say there's nothing really to look forward to in the same way that they used to be. So, great point. I'll kind of get to that in a second. So, so, and then like you even tried stuff, right?

Like you've heard from the others that, oh, if you're like tired of gaming, like, make an org, like do something else, like come up with a new goal for yourself. And you're like, cool, let's do this. And then the interesting thing is that what I'm hearing you say is that it actually checked a lot of the boxes. Yeah. It gave you something to work towards, working towards success. It sounds like it's actually fun. But there's still something like missing. It's sort of like, you know, it's kind of like a puff pastry that's kind of good, but like empty on the inside. Yeah, it's like, it's like an eclare and there's no cream in the middle. Yeah, right?

And so this is where I think like maybe what we need to, oh, we're getting donation, sorry. I think what we want to talk about today is like goals in the nature of fulfillment. Yeah. And I'm also curious, are you afraid of dying? Yes, yes, very much so. very very much so it's uh it's the same as like the uh the the gray hairs or you know i go get gray hairs it's like the memento mori of it and it i i i have to i pull them out of my beard i cut them out because it just freaks me out it totally freaks me out and like i i'm so scared of it okay

absolutely so i think we can we can this is something i can work with yeah So, Zach, I'm actually, like, I feel pretty good that this is something that you can overcome. Like, I know, I know. The best way that I've been able to overcome it is by reminding myself that I'm just a very intelligent monkey and I have no idea how the world and the fucking the inner workings of the universe really exist, right? Like, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Just sit back, shut up, and enjoy the ride. like that's been the best way that I've learned to cope with it. Yeah.

So what that sounds like a good coping mechanism, but it sounds like a coping mechanism, not a fix. Okay. So there's a part of me that says like, why not just learn how the universe works? Because I don't think you can pierce the veil. I don't think people can.

I don't think it's possible. It's the same as like, I don't think a, you know, how like an aunt couldn't learn physics. I don't think people can do it. And I think that's a completely reasonable experience. I mean, a completely reasonable view. And I think that, you know, you're not going to understand that people can pierce the veil until you pierce the veil. Yeah.

I mean, I guess that's a good way to say it. I mean, people didn't know there was fire until they made fire. They didn't know there was electricity until that happened. Yeah. And so this is where I think the interesting thing is historically. So I think the problem is that where you are, many people have been historically. And this is where my confidence comes from is because I think that, like, you know, you have a lot of the features that I'm going to outline in a second that I think are, you know, you're really falling into a pattern here. Can I just keep talking?

Yes. So the first is that a lot of times excitement and motivation come from goals, especially for. young people, right? Like, so, like, I set a goal for myself. I want to be something. I want to accomplish something. And so you climb to the top of the mountain. And it's, it's the image of the view at the top of the mountain, which motivates you to climb. Yeah. And so this is the most natural form of, like, motivation and like goal setting and excitement. Like, you were building something. You were growing. You were playing games. You were loving it. And then you reach to the top of the mountain. And even then, The view at the top of the mountain is glorious.

But now what? Right. And so this is where, yeah. It's like you're slowly sliding down the side of the mountain. And every once in a while you stop sliding and you trick yourself and tell yourself that it to win. But the fact is, is that you're just losing slower. Yeah, man. So like, I don't know how to say this to you, but as long as that image and that experience,

is there, I think it's going to be very hard to find excitement. Yeah, I would say so. Right. So here's what I'm hearing. I think sliding down the mountains are good. You seem like you wanted to say something. Go for it. Well, I think that it's more that it's not just a metaphor for gaming.

It's like, I think whenever you're younger, right, you look forward to, you look forward to maybe getting your first girlfriend, you know, getting a car, learning how to drive, going to college. you know, like moving out or, you know, a bunch of these different firsts. And I feel like all the fun firsts that I've, that I have are pretty much over with. And I'm just kind of, I'm waiting for the bad first to happen. And it's like I really only have bad things to look forward to for the rest of my life in a way. It sounds really bleak, but that's really how I feel.

Yeah, I'm glad you're sharing that because I think it's bleak and also it's reasonable. And here's the reason. it's reasonable because so far fulfillment from you has come from cresting the mountain. Right? And so like here's what I'm hearing is like there's an uphill part. And once we get to the top, it doesn't matter whether you're facing north, south, east or west. There's only one way to go. That sure is. Yeah. Right. And so what I'm hearing from you is this sort of like the fire is going out, a fear of mortality. If you actually study like psychoanalysis,

what you'll find is that dreams around dental problems are associated with the fear of death. I don't blame them. I don't blame them at all. I think it's more about like it's not about, it's how to transcend the mountain entirely. Because like I don't, yeah, you can't, the thing is I know that you can't live your life.

It's like you have to, you can't be, I guess like goal, like, outcome driven, right? You have to just be able to do something because you enjoy doing it. And that's the whole. Yeah. So that's where when you say transcend the mountain, the reason that I'm actually optimistic is I think there are a couple of different things going on. One is that I see this a lot because I work with some very successful people.

And success drives them to the top, but then they shrug their, they're like, now what? Right. And what they usually end up doing is much like yourself, they're like, oh, it's climbing to the top of a mountain, which gives me a sense of fulfillment. So let me go find another mountain. And then they climb that one. they get like a diminishing return from it. It checks some of the boxes and they're like, oh, I've accomplished stuff.

I feel pride, but I still feel unfulfilled. It's not the same. And so they'll find mountain after mountain after mountain and they'll feel unfulfilled despite being successful, successful, successful. It doesn't matter. Yep. And the reason that I'm optimistic, though, is because like the best known case of someone solving this problem is Buddha.

So we talked about Wuta? Yeah. Like you and I talked about him? No, no. I know a bit, but not. Can you share with us what you know about Wudda? Basically, I think that he was some sort of a, like some sort of workman. And then he kind of just sat under a tree.

And pretty much all of the, a lot of the revelation that he had, I believe was just kind of internal. And I think that the, I remember, there was, I think, some sort of a phrase where the true enlightenment is not, you know, understanding the complexities of the universe, it's understanding the nothingness of the universe or something like that. I think it's like one of the things about that. Now, I could be getting this completely wrong. And this is like 10 years ago or 15 years ago, but that's what I remember. Yeah. That's actually, you hit all the important parts, but a couple of details, I think we're going after reshift. So like, I think the key thing is that what Buddha did was, as you put it,

pierce the veil. Yeah. Okay. So, right? So like I think that's what his discovery was, is that like you can climb mountains until the end of time. But that external fulfillment is going to come with diminishing returns. And you can keep on chasing new things. You can like, okay, I'm going to start a company. I'm going to become a streamer. I'm going to have kids. You can, you can find all these mountains to climb. But. that if we kind of think about it fundamentally, like if you're unsatisfied at the top of a mountain, like,

that's a temporary satisfaction. And climbing mountains will always lead to temporary satisfactions. And so what Buddha discovered is like through a lot of internal work, which is exactly correct. I mean, I think you hit a lot of the key points, which is that you can climb mountains until you're out of breath, but never

will that bring you peace. That piece is piercing the veil is not about looking at a telescope. It's about looking at a mirror. Yeah. And so I think the journey that you have to walk is this one. And we can kind of talk about, so I think that's like the fundamental of where you are. And then I think there's also kind of a psychological component, fear of death, thing like that that needs to be processed.

But there are a couple of different key points that I want to share. The first is that Buddha wasn't a workman. He was a prince. And so what happened is materialistically, he climbed to the top of the highest mountain. So people told him like, hey, like as a, you know, as a prince, like, these are the things that you should accomplish. And he went and he did those. And then like, you know, he got married. He had a healthy son.

He was revered. He was wealthy. He was powerful. He was respected. He was loved. He had a bright future. And one day he woke up. And even though he was the envy of the world, he was unhappy.

And so then he was like actually screwed because there's a, there's a subtle thing, uh, Zach. which makes things both beautiful. You're blessed and cursed. Because when someone who is not successful wakes up and feels unhappy, what do they think will lead them to happiness? Well, they think the success will. Absolutely.

Yeah, they know what the problem is and they have a thing that they can displace their unhappiness onto. But whenever you have what you want, and then you still don't feel the way you want, it's harder to deal with that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So at some point, you reach the end of the road. Right. Yeah. The worse my life is, the further I can go like repairing things, repairing things, repairing things, you know, like playing games, fixing your teeth, launching an organization. You kind of tried your hand at a couple things. You're taking care of business. You're continuing to be successful. And yet, once we get to kind of the top, then we begin to realize we're like faced with this problem, which is like where does happiness come from? And this is the really, really crazy thing.

If you look at the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, I don't know if you're familiar with this. I'm going to go into a little bit of history lesson. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. I mean, actually, there's a story that I remember I heard, and it was a guy that kind of ascended to some degree of, you know, pseudo heaven. And he was assigned an architect. And this is, I think, part of Hindu mythology. And the architect, you know, he kept wanting to make bigger and builder, like bigger and bigger and bigger

castles. And finally, like the architect was so tired of it that he went and he asked, I think it was Brahma or Vishnu. I forgot which one. And he's like, how can I get this guy to stop wanting bigger and bigger castles? And then the god told him, he's like, this is no problem. I'll solve it. And then the guy had the castle built. And then a bunch of ants marched in to the castle. and each one of the different ants was a former version of himself. And it put in perspective how actually meaningless and how little it really mattered. And I forgot what his name was. Yeah.

Yeah. That's not a particular story I'm that familiar with. So I don't remember his name. But I think there's kind of an interesting principle, which is like if you look at all the people. So you're, I don't know if you're familiar with this because it sounds like you've studied, you know, Hindu mythology or something or you're just well read maybe. A bit. It's just, well, it's a story that I think it made an impact on me. And because it just, it kind of puts into perspective that like, it's the whole idea of, you know,

Asimandias or anything like that where any accomplishment that you have is always fleeting. Absolutely. So, so here's an interesting thing. So, you know, like in India, there were four casts. There was a caste system. And the highest cast were the Brahmins, the priests. These were the teachers of meditation, the closest to God, etc., etc. You know, they were like, they were the,

you know, they taught meditation. Below them were the chattrias or the nobility. These were kings, lords, etc. Below them were the Vaishnavs, who were, Vaishas, sorry, who were the merchant class. and below them were the Shudras or the laborer caste. And so let me ask you a question.

Which cast do you think produces the most enlightened people? Probably, it's kind of hard to say. I mean, it depends on, like, what you mean by enlightenment. I mean, obviously you would have the Brahmins, and they're the ones that spend all of their time working towards enlightenment. So that's what would make a lot of sense. But is that really what's true? Because usually, I mean, isn't that just kind of hereditary?

What cast you end up in? Sure. But they're also trained formally in the skills of meditation, right? They're the ones that are the teachers and the experts. I don't know. So it turns out that it's the chattrias. Okay. So consistently, like if you think about the incarnations of Vishnu,

which if you want to think about it, like not from a religious standpoint, but a historical or anthropological sense. standpoint. I think what you can safely assume is that sometimes there have been historical human beings that have been like different to the point where like they leave a legacy that people assign divinity to. Like Rasputin. Like that's a that's a borderline one, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So I think it's a good, it's a funny example, but possibly yeah. So what I'm thinking about is like if you look at all the enlightened beings from the Indian subcontinent, they're all kings. Yeah, things like that. And the question is like, why is that? If you have the experts in meditation, you have the teachers in meditation, and what the Brahman does is goes to the king's palace every day, teaches the king how to meditate, and then goes home. Why is it that the king gets enlightened before the Brahman does? Inconsistently so. And the really interesting answer is because, like, you know, I think it comes back to climbing to the top of the hill. Because at the end of the day, what the Brahman is taught is that, is that,

that like don't climb to the top of the mountain because that's not your job. The top of the mountain will never give you fulfillment. So the Brahmin never climbs to the top. But at the end of the day, they travel to the king's palace every single day and they see a bigger house. And, you know, the king has a prettier wife. And, you know, like the, you know, there's all these like, like the king eats finer food and has finer clothing. And the king is the one who actually winds up at the top of the mountain. The king is the one who wakes up one day and finds like this desperation of unhappiness. Because remember, like we talked about, when your life is not perfect, you chase an external goal. So for the Brahman's, there's this seed of desire that is never fulfilled. And as long as

that seed of desire is never fulfilled, they can never truly seek enlightenment because the search of the road for enlightenment, people, people make it sound like it's like a positive thing. That's like if you look at Instagram accounts about like people who are deeply spiritual, It's all like, you know, like being in touch with the universe and like, oh my God, I'm so like in love, like learn to love, man. Yeah. Like I love myself in a new way. Those guys don't get it. The road to enlightenment starts with what you feel every single day.

Is that like a no matter what you do like things are decaying and no matter like what you accomplish, like that excitement can never be reproduced. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what's so, it's very bittersweet in a way, because you can appreciate it and you can also resent it or dislike it or be afraid of it. And you kind of have the duality that happens all the time. Yeah, so that's actually, that understanding is one of the key things to transcend duality. You have to sit within duality constantly to ultimately recognize that things are neither bitter nor sweet. right so when you kind of talked about you said something about like nothingness when you were talking your understanding of buddha's enlightenment and i think one of the key discoveries is that like

there is no such thing as growth and there is no such thing as decay and once you recognize that once you realize that you'll be free from your sense of decay i feel like uh like yeah it's like the most enlightened version of it is what it is. I get it. I understand it. But how is that real if people die? Like a tree dies, it burns up. Trees gone. How's that not decay? Yeah. So I could give you a logical answer that it isn't decay. I could do that. But I think that will be a discussion of logic and that's not actually going to like let you transcend the mountain. So, you know, the answer that I would give you is is all kinds of things. One is like, you know, that matter, energy and consciousness are just transformed. Right. So like, like,

is is a chunk of limestone better or worse than like a brick in a house? I think it's like the impact that it has on you, right? So. So, like, of course, obviously it's all the same in the grand scheme of things, right, in the grand order of the universe. But, you know, to a person and to like what your experiences are, there are, of course, things that have more importance to you than other things. It's like, you know, family members more important than a rock, even though they're... Now we get to the crux of it, right? So, well said, the impact on you. So this is what the yogis discovered is that, like you said, it's...

internal. So like the battle that you need to fight has nothing to do with climbing mountains. It has everything to do with understanding how to essentially control or be free of things impacting you. To be able to joy a microtransaction cesspit, the same amount is your first like enjoyment of wow. To understand that like living in life is like it's all about impact. In the Sanskrit word for de-impaction, essentially training yourself to be free from the impact of things is Vairagya. To be free of like, its detachment is the best kind of definition of it. And so like this is a process that like you can undergo to where, you know,

like you can like literally learn how to transcend the mountain. That the going up the mountain and going down the mountain is not actually. like any different. I know. Yeah, I don't know. It feels a lot different. I'll say that. Yep.

It feels a whole lot of time. So, but that's the key thing, right? It's like, like, the difference arises of feeling. It arises to your attachment or your valuing of the climb over the descent. Yeah, but how could you possibly equate the two? That's what I don't understand. It's like it, it's like, it's like, I try to rationalize it in my own mind a lot where it's like you just go on.

It's like for streaming, for example, right? You go on, you have a great stream. You go on. You have another stream and it's not good. Like how can you make both of those feel as good to you personally? And like I think the answer that I always tell myself is that, well, you have to enjoy them both. And you have to just kind of get the same thing out of them. But it feels like that doesn't really happen for me.

Okay. So I'm going to give you one last logical answer and then we're going to get into it. Okay. Yeah. All right. So here's the thing. So, so I think you learn this in medicine. So like sometimes you work with a patient and they live.

And sometimes you work with a patient and they die. Right? So like clearly one is better than the other. There's like no objective argument that can be made. And yet. Do you imagine that it's possible for a doctor to go to work every day and actually, like, be just as satisfied with their life, whether the patient lives or dies? I don't think so. I think that there are a lot of doctors that probably if they have a patient die, they'll feel terrible about it. I would expect so, yeah. Yeah. So here's where what my experience has been, is that ultimately, I can't.

control whether a patient lives or dies. And it's been really bizarre. I'm thinking of one particular patient residency that had like younger guy, you know, maybe in his like early to mid-50s, had liver cancer, but like one of the sort of genetic or other variants. Like, it's not like he was drinking alcohol and did something that was responsible for the cancer. Just, you know, so he was a, he was a Chinese gentleman. And so I was kind of assigned to him because I speak a little bit of Mandarin. And like we didn't have Mandarin translators. And so, like, I was assigned to him because, like, I could at least ask him, like, if he had pain that day.

And so, you know, working with his family was really interesting. He had, like, a 17-year-old son. And, you know, it was really, like, eye-opening because, like, it's clear that the dude is going to die. And yet, like, like, it's so hard to describe. I think this is where you have to really experience it. But sort of, like, coming to terms with the fact that as a human being, like, I can't, I can't cure him of his.

cancer. Like, I can't do that as a doctor. You can't actually save someone's life. All you can do is, like, try. Right? Yeah. And there comes a point where, like, you can, a patient can survive and you can have done a shitty job as a doctor. And a patient can have died and you could have done an amazing job job as a doctor. And that ultimately, like, what, where my piece comes from is, like, is devoting myself to like the action that I take as opposed to like what happens to the patient because there's no question that you know life is better than death at least in a medical setting right but it's just it's sort of like you know where I find my piece and I know this may sound strange to you Zach and we'll get you there you know because I think I have the benefit of some of these experiences where

you like grapple with like people dying of cancer and you figure out how can I go on how can I you know can I be proud of what I did. And there are times where like when I think about that, that patient and my work with that patient, that is, I think, like, the height of what I've been capable of. Yeah, being attached to an outcome. And being detached from the outcome. Yeah, that's, yeah, being attached as the problem and being detached as the goal. Yeah. And so like, like, can you see how objectively, like, there's no question that life is better than death. But even like to this day, the family is incredibly grateful that I was this person's doctor. I'm incredibly grateful for having the experience, even though the dude died and it was sad, that there's an axis of suffering and contentment that is

actually independent of happiness and sadness. Okay. Okay. I can see that. Yeah. Right. And I think you may understand that part pretty well because I think that there are a lot of reasons that you, There's a lot of joy, enjoyment, and potential happiness in your day-to-day. There's accomplishment. There's hopefully laughter. You know, there's working with your one true king folks. And there's something that's like missing on the inside, despite everything going so well. Yeah, exactly.

So that axis is like the path that you have to walk through spirituality. Because you've figured out how to like become successful. That's the first axis. And what happens, the reason we get stuck is because we think that the axis of success and the axis of contentment are linked. Because early on in life, as we climb that mountain, we think that these two things are linked because they grow together. And then you kind of like you're going up together. And then what happens, you get to the top of the mountain. And then some people realize that the axes are truly perpendicular.

And when you understand that 100% is when you attain enlightenment. Yeah. I've tried so hard. And like I've just, I, I, in a way, like, it's something that you can clearly know, but knowing it isn't the same as living it. I'm with you, 100%. Yeah, yeah. It's like I, you want to do that and you want to transcend being outcome like, like outcome

driven or outcome determined or whatever, right? But you just can't get out of it. Like, it's like I'll play a game and I'll be like, oh, even if I don't beat the ball. You don't something. It's fine. And then I play it and I don't beat the boss. I'm malding. Yep. So now, so enough of theory. Yeah. I think there's something holding you back. Okay. Yeah. And so this is where I think that like there's that general principle, but I think there's one big thing getting in the way, which is your fear of death. So this I think is actually like psychological in nature. It's of the mind. Okay. And so as long as you, we have to get to and process. process or dissolve this sense of decay that like plagues you.

Right. So like what I'm sort of getting the sense of is like you have this shadow that goes like that accompanies you through all of your things. And the shadow is like this feeling that like we're on the decline that there's a sense of decay that joy like the only first that I have left are bad ones. Yeah. You know? Exactly.

And so that comes from somewhere. That has nothing to do with the axis of contentment or suffering. What that has to do with is like a psychological, like, because this is where we can lean on neuroscience a little bit. Just think about this for a second, Zach. Like you literally have neurons that have been wired to produce those thoughts. Yeah. Right. So then the question becomes, how did those neurons get wired that way? And how can we change? neuronal wiring. So this is now taking a step, we'll leave spirituality behind. Forget about spirituality, forget about enlightenment, forget about the top of the mountain. And what we really have to do for you is do some psychological work and rewire some of your neurons, because once that happens, then you can walk that other axis of contentment and suffering. So let me ask you this. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it definitely makes sense. It's basically it's programmed in a wrong way. Like you're programmed to think one thing and

it's a bad thing to think. Yeah, I totally understand. Sort of. So the tricky thing is that it's programmed, it was programmed in the right way and now it's maladaptive. Yeah. So it's not a mistake. It's actually, and so let me ask you this. How long have you been afraid of death? Since I found out about it. Can you tell me about that? how you found out about that? I don't really remember, honestly. I was, I think the earliest memory I have is, I was like, I don't know, like four, five or six, right? I got, you know, I was raised Roman Catholic.

And so I had a lot of experience just kind of talking about the whole idea of afterlife and everything like that. And even whenever I was like five years old, I read some of the stories. I heard some of the stories in a Bible. I was like, man, I never heard of anybody that lived in a fish. I don't even know if this is true. and it made me wonder it's like what is the what's really going on

and what's really going to happen because like yeah I understand people die and I was scared of it I remember you know it's like you can run from it hide from it destiny comes all the same and it's scary

it is and I remember thinking that when I was a little kid and there have been times where I've been able to kind of forget about that and I think that's really kind of always been my goal is to just not think about it

and I think that sometimes never I don't this sounds like really stupid because I think it in a way I feel stupid for thinking this way and like I will do badly in a game sometimes and it will remind me that I'm getting older and I'm going to die because I'm not

as good as I feel like I used to be and it's like this weird like kind of domino effect where like playing a game like that will make you feel this way and it's just so like Like to me, I find it embarrassing. It's weird because I think it's a, it's like a illogical conclusion in a way, but in another way it's not. Yeah.

So well said. So I think when you say it's an illogical conclusion, here's what I'm, I'm going to rephrase that a little bit or transform it. Okay. the way I'm going to interpret that is that if you look at the variables that lead you to playing a crappy game of whatever, there are tons of them, right? Yeah. If you're a Mova player, the number one variable is that your team sucks. Absolutely. It's always their fault.

Yep. And so like if we think about it, there are a thousand reasons why, you know, you have poor performance in the game. Yeah. But what your mind jumps to is, ah, see, this. This is a sign of the decay. We knew it was there. We know it's coming. As you said, you can't escape it.

It's destiny. Here it is. And so this is the very nature of a cognitive bias is that, like, it's a filter through which an independent experience becomes into something else. Yeah. It's like if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Absolutely. You find it. Yeah.

I get it. So now we go back to, I mean, you say you don't have many memories about it, but like, I think that we have to figure out how to deconstruct the filter. And that starts with like understanding how the filter was built. And so you were four years old and you were like raised Roman Catholic. And when you say, can you tell us more about that? Well, I went to church every Sunday, got communion. I never liked going to church, couldn't play Game Boy in church. And I didn't really ever believe in a lot of this.

stuff. I thought it was kind of, I, in a way, there's like the parallel realities of, is it more, like, I think I even said this last time I was on here, is it more terrifying to know that you are created just for this endless cycle of servitude towards some deity that you don't really fully comprehend, or is it more terrifying that you're just a hyper-intelligent ape with no purpose in life who's going to die and cease to exist in a period of time that's nothing in the grand scheme of things? It's like which one of these realities is more terrifying, and I think they're both pretty bad. Yeah, so that sounds like philosophy to me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of the, you know, religion in a lot of ways is philosophy, and so. Yep. So I'm, I'm not. I'm

going to steer away from that. Go ahead. So why did you have to go to church? Well, my mom wanted me to. It was Sunday. And can you help understand what, did you, did you ever try to tell your mom that you didn't want to go to church? Yes, I made her aware of the way that I felt about it. Yes, many times. Can you tell us about that? I was like, Mom, I don't want to go. She's like, it's too bad. You're going to go. And I was like, well, I don't want to go. And then finally, sometimes I would try to make myself feel better and think, like, maybe she'll take me to Burger King after church. That was, that honestly, sometimes that helped. But overall, like, yeah, like, she would always make me want to go or make me go. And I didn't really, like, nowadays, the weird thing about it is nowadays, I, you know, I offer every time that it's like a

holiday, like, right now, you know, COVID, so like I'm not doing it. But like any other time besides And I always tell her like, listen, mom, if you want to, if you want me to take you a church, I will not even stream. Like, I will make sure that you get to go to church, right? Because I knew how much it meant to her back then. But whenever I was a kid, I didn't have that same perspective, right? And so back then, I just, you know, I didn't want to go. I hated going.

And it was just, it's like I could be at home playing with my friends. I could be playing video games. I could be doing something that I want to do. And instead, I'm doing this thing that I don't want to do that I don't even think is real. Okay. And what would she say when you told her that you didn't want to go? I mean, I think there's a lot of different things she'd say. But like, I don't, the thing is, it's odd because I don't even really remember.

Like, the only thing I really remember is that it didn't matter. Yep. Yeah, I could rationalize it all I wanted, but I was still driving to church. Yep. So inevitable. It's inevitable. nothing you can do to escape it. Well, I could like fake sick, sometimes a fake sick.

There's a few times I did that. But other than that, yeah, it's pretty much inevitable. Now, are we talking about going to church or dying? Definitely church. I feel like the, I definitely feel like it's two kind of different things because church, like, I was like, I knew that at some point I wouldn't have to always do this. And like, I could get away from it to an extent. because it's like, okay, well, I'm clearly not going to be nine years old forever.

So eventually I won't have to deal with this. But with dying, you can't really get away from it in the same way. So let me ask you a question, okay? So I understand that you don't remember exactly what the conversations were. But you remember the feeling, right, of being dragged to church. Yeah. So like, like there's a certain sense. of like powerlessness and inevitability to the story that you're telling?

No, I mean, I think every kid has like many stories like that where you just have to do something. It's like going to school. It's the same thing. We're not. Okay. If it's the same thing for you, but let's not worry about what many kids have. Okay. So here's my question. I know it's going to sound kind of weird. Yeah. When you have those thoughts of decay, is the quality flavor or color of emotion that you experience? experience at all similar to how you felt when you got dragged to church? Not really.

I mean, I think the church thing was just a more, you know, a one and a half hour inconvenience, whereas dying is like a very much, it's a much longer inconvenience. And so can you tell me a little bit about when you started to fear death? Yeah, like I was a kid. I mean, as I said, as soon as I figured out that it was going to happen. And how did you figure out that it was going to happen? Well, that's the thing is like I must have been like four or five years old. So I can't really remember.

It's hard for me to like to really get it to really remember what it was or how it felt because it was just so long ago. And so I'm hearing you've carried this feeling with you for a long time. Yeah. Can you, do you remember like times that maybe you were a little bit older that you were like, worried about it? Like, do you have any memories of being slightly older where? Yeah, I remember, well, it's like not just for me, right? I worry obviously about my parents dying.

That's scary. And there's one time my mom, she, I don't know, we don't know really what it was. Took her to the doctor a while afterwards. But she like kind of had some sort of like a, it wasn't really like a heart attack. or was some sort of like a thing. It was like a couple of steps below that. And I remember like I woke up and I thought that and I was like, oh my God, that was a pretty bad point in my life because she didn't want me to call the ambulance, right?

Because we were really poor. We couldn't afford it. And like having to deal with that and like the helplessness not only of, you know, of the greater existential situation, but also just like the day to day, like, you know, we don't have money. We can't take care of ourselves. And that was brutal. What was brutal about it?

Well, I mean, like having to, like, feeling like you're going to lose one of your parents. And then thinking to yourself, like, this is all I've ever known. And, like, to know that it's not going to last. And like, that's what was scary. And to be helpless even inside of the context of society, right? Because you don't have the money to take care of it. And the funny thing about that is, that I actually, like, yeah, I remember because I woke up and she was like, like, she was like screaming or like crying.

And so like I had to wake up. Like I used to have like PTSD and I guess it's PTSD. I don't know. I just kind of read about it later on. I would wake up and I would hear it in my head and I would have to get up and check on her. And this had happened like once every like two hours or something like that. And this went on for maybe like six months a year, something like that. And then, you know, I kind of got.

That stopped happening. I wouldn't say I got over it, but it stopped happening. And then a funny thing about that is that's actually what drove me to make my YouTube channel and to start making videos. That's kind of the reason. Can you help me understand that? How does that relate to a YouTube channel? Well, because I didn't have the, I couldn't really have a job at that point because I felt like I had to be around to take care of her. and I wanted to be able to work from home and do something like that.

And so I didn't want to spend all day at work in case she had something happened that she needed me there for. And that's why I started doing YouTube videos because I thought that, well, maybe I can do this and, you know, see where it goes. That's a reason. That's interesting. Yeah. So are you saying that if your mom had never had something like a heart attack, you wouldn't have had a career in streaming? You know, I've always felt that, yeah. I mean, that's why I say I never have any regrets in my life in a way.

And it's like, you know, you need a hot fire to forge a sword. And that's kind of the way that I've looked at it. Yeah, it's true. But it sucks. Yeah. So, Zach, this may sound kind of weird, but like, I'm kind of hearing that you're not really afraid of, I know it sounds weird. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. You're not really afraid of death.

I think what bothers you, it sounds to me, is actually your inability to deal with death. Well, control over it, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it'd be nice if I could control it. That'd be great. I know it sounds weird. And this may seem like a useless distinction, but to me, it actually feels pretty significant because what I'm hearing themes of is not actually death. it's like you being like and I'm I'm stretching here okay so I'm trying to draw connections but

and so you know we feel free to bat them down if they don't sit with you it's hypothesis testing you know what I'm really hearing is that like you've been on the receiving end of being powerless before and like what I'm hearing is that death is like the guaranteed powerlessness it's the one thing you know that no matter how hard you try, you can fix everything else. You can have money, you can have medical care, you can have friends, you can have love, and you can gain power over every dimension in your life. But the one thing that you can never gain power over is death. Yeah. True. The interesting thing, though, is that I'm not, because it's bizarre, because most people who fear death are concerned about regret.

They're concerned about lost opportunities. They're concerned about all the things that they didn't get to do. I'm not hearing really much of that at all from you. If I could sit in my room and play video games, eating cheetos and drinking soda for another thousand years, I would do it. So it's interesting because I know it sounds weird, but for a lot of people, the fear of death is about missed things. I'm not hearing that from you.

What I'm really hearing from you is that death is about the inevitability of powerlessness. Yeah. Like that decay is like entropy is like a force that no matter how hard you fight against, you can never overcome. You can't do anything about it. Yeah. It's the Osamandius analogy again. Yeah. Exactly.

And so this is where like I think if you want to be free of that, the work that we need to do is about experiences of powerlessness. in your life. Right? Because that's, yeah. I've thought about doing that for myself too. It's like I remember there's like sometimes whenever I will take risks in a way. And this sounds really bad. I'll take risks in a way that could really hurt me.

And I don't care about them. Because it's like kind of an exercise in letting go of. worrying about your your well-being. No, it's not. It's an exercise in exerting power. How do you feel like that? Because like you're taking the risk, right? So like you're manning up against it.

Like what, so this is exactly what I'm saying. For most people, risk to their well-being is enough of a deterrent. But for you, you have like a far more important flame within you, which is like irrespective of the the like the impact to my well-being like i'm going to choose i'm going to be in control i'm going to jump into the lake of fire because i'm the one that's doing it and while a thousand people will say to you you're a dumb ass for jumping into a lake of fire they don't understand that like what you need from that what you're getting out of that is that you're the one who's doing the jumping for me like what i try to get out of it is that

I can let go and just let it happen. Exactly. We're saying the same thing. Yeah. Right? Because what you're trying to do is train yourself to be powerless. Exactly. Yeah.

Which in a weird way is actually taking control. I guess, yeah. I mean, if you, well, how can, yeah, but it's like, how do you, how can you, it's like a paradox, right? Because how do you take control of not having control? How do you not take control of not having control? That's why it doesn't work. Okay.

Because you've tried it, right? Yeah. And you still fear death. And you still fear powerlessness. And you've like, like, do you see like, I think we're saying the same thing. Like I think now I feel like we're on to something. Because it's like you do this thing to train yourself, to endure yourself, to build, build some damage, like you want some fear of death resistance. So what you're going to do is jump into a lake of fire. And a thousand other people are going to say like, don't do that. That's dumb. And you're like, you guys don't understand. For me, it's like, I have to learn how to like let go or whatever. Like I have to learn how to face these things and like do something that's high risk because it's like you trying to grapple with this thing. Yeah. Well, it's also just like small things. I remember I, uh,

I was walking up the street this was like a years ago right or quite a while I don't know if it was years ago it was quite a while ago and I had like a weird I don't know if this was like a panic attack or something like that where I was walking down to the street and I or to the store

I was walking down the street at the store and I had like a weird thing happen with like my chest and I don't know if it was a panic attack if it was some sort of like you know weird thing with my heart I don't know what it was this happened a few years ago And it was the first time that I ever really felt. I think that almost many people have this experience, right,

where they have the first feeling of mortality. And that was that for me, right? And I remember a year or so later, I had not that same feeling, but something that reminded me of it, like walking up the street. And I thought to myself, if that's the case, and if I die right now,

there couldn't be a better time for it to go. I'm walking down the street. I'm happy. I'm with my friends. I'm in my neighborhood. And everything is as good as it's ever going to be. And that's been the closest that I've been to being able to deal with it. Yeah.

Listen. What are you saying to me, Zach? I don't know. Like think about that for a second. Like, what are you? So you're afraid. of death, right? Yeah.

And that second time, when you were walking, don't read Twitchette. Okay. All right. So when you're walking up the street and you start to feel that sensation, did you think you were dying? Two percent chance, one percent chance, yeah. It made me aware. It made me aware of it.

Sure. And so as like, so can we just sort of, I'm going to put some, I'm going to, interpret, okay? So you're welcome to push back against interpretation. So in that moment, you were actually like some of the, that's the closest to death that you've actually ever been. Closest to death that I've been without. I mean, like, there have been some other times where I've been pretty close to it. Aware, aware of your proximity to death. Let's put it that way. I remember there was one time I was driving down, my friend was driving down the street. He was drunk and high and I was in the passenger seat and the seatbelt didn't work. And I thought to myself,

man, I'm never going to have to worry about that test that I have to do next week. How did you feel when you were close to death? In the first case, the one in the car, I felt it's like, there's like the, it's, it's, it's terrifying. But at the same time, it's also grounding. And when you're walking up the street and you think, yourself, maybe there's a 2% chance this is a heart attack. How do you feel? Oh, that I just, I felt good. I felt fine. So like, this makes no sense. Because here you are afraid of death on a daily basis. And when it comes knocking on your door, the words that you describe are not abject terror. Sure, there's terror, but there's also grounding. And there's

also a sense of like peace and acceptance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird, it's like kind of you have moments of, moments of peace and moments of being able to deal with things and then also moments where you can't. It's like it's not an even keel. I'm going to disagree. Okay. Because I think actually, I know it sounds weird. What you say is logically makes a ton of sense. But here's what I'd like to put out to you is that when actually faced with death, you're okay with it.

it's the feeling of decay, the feeling of inevitability, the feeling of powerlessness about that future thing that you can never prevent, that's where you're terrified. Yeah, I think it's, yeah. Do you see the difference? Like, because when you actually face death, you're like, so be it. And anticipation is the stressful thing. And, you know, going back to the thing with the dentist, right? I mean, sitting in the waiting room is way more stressful than actually having the teeth, you know, fixed or whatever. So now we get to like, I think the problem is that you've misdiagnosed yourself and not that we diagnose you here on stream. I'm not going to diagnose or just use that term loosely, okay? Because you call it the fear of death, but I don't think it's the fear of death. I think it's the fear of powerlessness. Because when you actually face death, you're kind of like, if I go, so be it. That's Vairagya. Yeah. I mean, it's scary in a way. Yeah, I think the more I have to think about it,

it's like kind of it's like I try not to think about it let me just say that yeah so we'll get to your whole coping structure in a second but like and I think this is where you know I sort of barked up the tree of like Roman Catholicism fear of death and things like that and that tree didn't there's nothing in the tree right I asked you that stuff and it kind of felt like it wasn't you're kind of like yeah that's not the same feeling you basically told me so and I think that makes sense because I think what the feeling really is, it really has to do with, like, we've got to talk about times in your life where you felt powerless. Like, this whole thing with your mom, I think, is like a far better, like, I know it sounds kind of weird, but like, you know, when you think about your decay,

when you do poorly in a video game, okay? Yeah. This is going to sound like a bizarre question. And feel free to swat this down, too, if it doesn't feel right, okay? When you do poorly in a video game, is the color, flavor, and texture of how you feel in that moment, forget about your thoughts, forget about your rationalizations, similar to how you felt when your mom told you don't call the ambulance. Yeah, I mean, to an extent, yeah, sure. And I think that's basically it. It's like feeling, yeah, feeling like you don't have the control over it and like you just can't, you know what, you know what needs to happen and you can't do it. Yeah. So that's, so the interesting thing, Zach, yeah, is that I think if you want to be happy,

Okay. There's a two-step process. And we can dig into this a little bit more if you want to today. But here's what I'm seeing. The first thing that you've got to do, because you said this beautifully, you said, I didn't get over it, but it stopped happening with your, with your. I think that's a lot of PTSD and things like that, right? I mean, you have like the initial shock.

It's the same with like a wound, right? I mean, the wound eventually heals, but you still remember it being there in a way. Yeah, so here's what I'm going to say, is that it just changed the shape in which it manifests. And that it's the same thing. This is the hypothesis. The fear of decay that you have is what it turned into. When did your mom have this event? 2012.

Okay. I think it was somewhere around them. I'm in 2013. I think it was November 2012, if I remember right? And how long did it, did you have the PTSD waking up, things like that? Until about, I don't know, like 2014, middle of 2014, somewhere around there. Okay. I mean, like, obviously these are very rough, like, guesses, but yeah.

And how long have you felt not excited? How long have you been worried about the decay of your career and that you're getting old? Probably last two years, two or three years. They're probably to add you three three issues. So it looks like there's like, so let's say like there's a pretty significant gap between 2014 and 2018. And I think that there's like to me though, I feel like I've got a pretty good sense that if you want to be free of this thing, you've actually got to go back and explore like times in your life where you felt powerless. Like the sense of inevitability and like powerlessness. And we can kind of talk about that more.

I mean, I know we've been at it for, you know, a while now. And so I'll kind of leave it up to you whether you want to talk a little bit about like coping, like your, you know, your tendency to like cope and. Well, what do you mean by exploring it? Like that's, I'm curious. Like, how do you explore a moment of powerlessness? When, yeah, great question. So like, I think I know it sounds weird, but when I ask you about your mom,

what did you feel in that moment as you were. retelling the story. What sucked. I mean, like, the thing is, if I, I've told the story before on my stream, so like, kind of the visceral, like, emotional feeling is not really there as much because I'm used to telling it. But, um, it's, it, it sucks. I mean, I think, yeah, it's just, it feels bad.

I think that's, what, what, in what way does it feel bad? I don't know. I mean, like, it, it, it feels bad that it happened. It feels bad that, um, it's, um, I guess, yeah, it just feels bad that it happened. I'm not really sure exactly how to describe it. So let me ask you this. Do you experience an echo of what you experienced back then when you tell the story?

No, that's why I can tell it. Okay. So that's what we have to change. So here's how it works. Okay. So from like, and this is a slightly more yogic perspective, but if we look at principles of psychotherapy, I think we're kind of, let's all, I'll kind of explain. you what happens. So when we have negative experiences, there's a certain emotional energy that we experience in that moment. And that energy can do one of two things. It can either be digested

or buried. Generally speaking, as we get older, we get better at digesting negative experiences. So if we think about like, you know, so for example, you know, being emotional, you know, being emotionally abused by your boss at the age of 27 for six months is far less damaging than being emotionally abused by a teacher for six months at the age of five? Yes. Right? So like if we think about why is that, it's because our brain's capacity to process and digest at older ages is improved. Yeah, you have more context around it. Absolutely. Like you have more con. Yeah. So it. Yeah. So, what you say is context is your brain's ability to attach context around it. Yeah.

Right? So the five-year-old doesn't understand how to do that. You're precisely right, but I'm just sort of reshaping it as like a faculty of the mind. So if we look at like psychotherapy and like psychiatry, like why do we dig into the past? It's because like most of the dormant emotional energy forms in the past because we tend to do pretty good. Like you can have a traumatic breakup. You can lose a parent, things like that. But like losing a parent at the age of seven has a,

and I've seen this, lifelong impacts. Losing a parent at the age of 42 has also affects you for the rest of your life, but it doesn't, like, damage you for the rest of your life. Yeah, it doesn't change the force. Yeah, I see. So here's what happens. I know it sounds kind of weird, but that energy lies dormant and then resurfaces. So the example that I'm going to use is like the standard one I use on stream is let's say I'm

walking down the street with my kid. And my kid sees a dog. Kid goes to pet the dog. Kid, dog kind of nips at my kid. The kid gets terrified. Starts crying, yells, terrified. Pick me up, daddy. Feels a ton of fear and emotion.

Ten minutes later, I get her in ice cream. She's licking the ice cream. We don't have to go to the emergency room or anything. The dog was actually just sniffing her, didn't even bite her. But for her, it was traumatic. And 10 minutes later, she's like a kid. She's resilient. So she's like licking her ice cream telling me about, you know, what she's doing in school.

Everything's fine. until the next day when she sees another dog. And she freaks out. Daddy picked me up. Oh my God. So like where did that, you know, she's like across the street. It's like what's happening? So what's happened is her neurons have wired to recognize this dog is a dangerous stimulus.

Yeah, people like the human brain is good at recognizing patterns and making patterns. Absolutely. Right. So that dormant emotional energy. So that's the neuroscientific. perspective. Let's think about it from like an emotional energy perspective. A ton of emotion disappears in 10 minutes. It doesn't actually disappear. Right? It goes dormant. Yeah, yeah. And then reactivates. So what I'm hearing from you is that like this emotional energy

reactivates as signs of decay. Oh, you see the decay there. You see the decay there. It's inevitable. I'm powerless. There's nothing I can do. And so then the question becomes like, like, okay, if that emotional energy is like manifesting because this is where we kind of get to coping. I mean, you say it beautifully, Zach. You're kind of like, I didn't really get over it, but it sort of went away. And what it's doing is it's like seeping in through the cracks now. It shapes the way that your mind looks at things. It shapes the way that you look at life because there's this like part of your brain that is telling you, Zach, that no matter what you do, you are powerless. And so what is your brain, then what happens is your brain takes that feeling.

And it actually tries to construct a logic around it. So this sounds kind of weird, but this is how like psychosis works. We're like paranoia, where the person has the paranoia. It's actually an emotion that's at the root of it. And then their mind constructs an explanation to corroborate the emotion. Why do people feel like they're being followed by the FBI as opposed to someone else? It's because they have a feeling of being followed, feeling observed. and then the mind constructs and asks itself in a logical way,

what organizations have the resources to constantly follow me, which is why you see these recurrent themes of like FBI, mob, whatever. Yeah, I can see that. So they're just looking for a outlet to rationalize their feelings. Absolutely. But at the root of it is a feeling. And in your case, I think what your mind has done is, like, latched onto this fear of death because I don't think it's actually a fear of death.

I know it sounds weird. I know you're afraid of death, but I think what you're really afraid of is, powerlessness at the time of death. Because if we really look at it scientifically, when you face death, you're not like freaking the fuck out. You're actually like, if I have to go now, so be it. Which is not what you would expect from someone who's facing death. No, it's not. And so I know it sounds kind of weird, but so now when we get to when you say like exploring it, what does that mean? What this means is that actually all of that dormant emotion, as we talk about it and as we bring the

emotion up, you will feel it in the moment. And you will feel powerless in the moment. But the cool thing is that each time you feel powerless, let's say like in a therapy session, it actually reduces the dormant emotional energy. And as the dormant emotional energy starts to wane, your fear of decay will go with it. So I actually have an interesting way that I agree with you. I think that's kind of one of the reasons why I talked about it on my stream too is because the exact same thing happened with a lot of other problems that I had whenever I was younger. So if you ever go back and watch one of my highlight videos of 2016 or something like that, I was very afraid to even show my arms because I'm extremely skinny.

I'm very, very, very skinny. And I was even more so then. And on top of that, I would always cover my mouth whenever I would smile because I didn't want people to see that I had things wrong with my teeth. I would wear a beanie sometimes as I felt a little bit more bald than usual that day. And I had a lot of insecurities and having to eventually deal with those insecurities on camera. And I remember recently I took a shower on stream where I took my shirt off on stream. And imagine doing that four years ago for me is just completely like I just could never imagine doing that at all. And I think that the reason that I was able to do that is kind of just consistently dealing with those problems and being faced with that constantly.

And then slowly just kind of learning to accept that this is who I am rather than this is something I have to be afraid of or ashamed of that I can't let anybody know about me. And I think that was helpful for me because it helped me become more of, more accepting of myself. Yeah. So perfect example. I'm going to reinterpret it using a different kind of language. So I think the problem when we hear your story is people, if people are struggling with the same thing, they're like, I'm insecure about my appearance. And you say, I learned to accept it. Everyone listening at home is like, how do I learn to accept it? right because acceptance comes at the end whereas like i'm going to try to reinterpret this using the model that i shared with you is i don't think i think the learning to accept it is sort of like happens towards the end the interesting thing is that if you think about each of those moments okay so

you have the the dormant energy of insecurity and every time you put on the beanie that energy is not being digested but every time you take off the beanie i know this sounds kind of weird but that insecure emotion comes up and is present alive and on in your mind. Yeah. And if it's not, I'll read Reddit and somebody will make a comment about it again. And so then it brings it up and it brings it up and it brings it up. So all of the dormant energy of the insecurity activates in the present. And if we think about even something like exposure therapy from a phobia, we think about my kid, how do I get her to trust dogs again? How do I get her to like dogs. I have to bring up that emotion, right? It's like, oh, we're going to see that dog's

across the street. We're not going to touch it. Okay, daddy's going to go over and touch it. And that raises her anxiety a little bit. Yeah. And it's like, you know, do you want to touch it now? And she's like, no. And then it's like, okay. And then we're going to try again tomorrow. We're going to try again tomorrow. So it's the activation of that dormant energy in the present that when done with awareness, and this is a key part, which I think you were like grappling with yourself in those moments, right? And so that's like the awareness component. Yeah. I mean, in a way at the beginning, and I think also like to a certain extent, it's like I tried to be somebody that I wasn't. I tried to pretend like I was this different

person. And I think that in a way, it's kind of like a negative emotion telling people that you're actually a degenerate with their teeth falling out. Like that's a negative emotion. but it's still you. It's still better to be you than pretend to be somebody else. But it's definitely not like I don't have like a better self-image because of it. If anything, I have a worse self-image. But it is what it is. It's not a facade.

That is precisely. So now we're going to kind of things full circle because that statement that you just made is moving in on that other axis that I'm talking about. Because oddly enough, like, if we think about, okay, my self-image is poor, let me fix my teeth. That's the axis of, like, climbing mountains, doing something external, becoming something that you're not. And what you're, what I'm hearing you say is that, like, I actually accept that I kind of look like a degenerate. And that actually brings me peace.

Well, that's what's bad about it, though, is because I'm okay with, with just living like an animal. Like I'm, I've said before, no mere mortal can live with Asmengal. Like, I, I live like an absolute animal and I don't care. Yeah. So now we get to subtle things. There's another one. So this idea that you are an animal, that's a whole other complex. That also has its origins, which like when you were growing up poor, it's just a hypothesizing for a second, right? We could do this all day. But when you were growing up poor, like tell me about what it was like to go to school. Oh, it would suck, right? I mean, like sometimes it would, especially if everybody else had X or Y thing and I didn't have it. Luckily, and you know, my mom did, you know, it's not like

we were, we weren't like the, we didn't live in the projects, right? But we were one of the poorer families in a working class neighborhood. I would say somewhere around there, like lower working class neighborhood. And so, you know, there would be many times whenever I wouldn't have something that it felt like everybody else would have or I wouldn't be able to do something that everybody else could do or I couldn't look forward to something that everybody else could look forward to. And it did feel bad to be like that one person that didn't have it or that one person that couldn't do it or whatever. And I still think about that sometimes. It does, it's disappointing. but I guess like to me now I just I always have like the the perspective that as I said I don't really have any regrets and I like in a way I would there be like small things that would go back and I would want to change in my life but I wouldn't really want to do a whole lot of that because every moment in my life has brought me to the point to where I'm at now and I think that I'm at a relatively good spot now it's just that internally I'm not does that make sense yeah it makes a lot of sense yeah so this is where you know I could hyper

I'm getting what you're saying, but I think this sentiment of no mere mortal can live with Asman Gold is I think a sentiment that was born, but I'm just taught, just in the interest of time, I'm going to just toss stuff out. That sentiment was born when you thought about inviting kids over to your house after you went with their house. Actually, it was born after I had a girlfriend live with me. Okay. But, yeah. The thing is, like, a lot of my friends.

And the thing is that back then, we were complete animals. Like, we all were. But the thing is that they got older and they stopped being animals, but I'm just the fucking same. And, like, I still feel like I'm 16. The only time I don't feel like I'm 16 or 13 anymore is if I talk to a 16-year-old, then I realize, oh, fuck, okay, actually, never mind. I'm 30. But outside of that, I feel the same pretty much.

and I feel good. It's just that the whole world around me changed. I didn't. I think there's a lot there. Yeah. Like it's a really interesting combination of acceptance and coping. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Yeah.

I think it's tough because I think what you've managed to do is like survive. And so a lot of what I'm hearing is like you've accepted yourself for who you are because rejecting yourself is too painful. but in accepting yourself for who you are, you're also propagating things that I think you know aren't good for you, which you're also working on. No, yeah, that's what the problem is, right? I should not be okay with a number of things. Like, I know that internally, you know, my head's fucked up in that way.

Yeah, so to explain how you overcome that, you actually, it's kind of weird. You have to go back to bringing up that next. negative emotion. Because as long as you say to yourself, no mere mortal can live with Asman gold, you're kind of laughing off the shamefulness of your situation. But I don't feel any shame. Exactly. That's the problem. And until you feel that shame, right? So, so, so like, since you don't feel that shame, you're propagating the life because this is the way that you ignore the shame. Yeah, but it's like I just never had it. It never bothered me at all.

And it's just, it's so weird to me because like other people, they will latch on and care so much about having this thing or having, you know, X or Y, like object or something like that. And for me, I just don't care about any of it. It doesn't matter to me. Like, it doesn't matter if I have a nice car. It doesn't matter to me if I have a nice house. I don't need nice clothes. I wear the same clothes I wore in high school. And none of these things matter to me at all.

I just, I don't care about the same things other people care about. I'm not sure how much of this is an acceptance and attachment and how much of it is a coping mechanism blown out of proportion. I buy it if I want it. I just don't care. I understand that. So, so, so, you know, there are many reasons that people cannot care about something. Yeah. Right?

They can learn to not care about it or they can be detached from it. well so here's kind of well i i think that there's a there's another experience that kind of might shed some insight onto this uh whenever i was young i uh i did care about these things a lot these they were very very meaningful to me like what i was saying before about having everything like you know i wanted to have like nice clothes and they brand clothes things like that and you know many times my mom and i would go to thrift store and you know i wouldn't be able to have like those same kinds of brand new clothes that my other friends would have. Now, many times I did also have nice clothes as well, but it just wasn't really to the same degree, and especially with other things

that cost more money. And I went to a school in high school initially where it was much more of like an upscale school. Many more people had, you know, that kind of stuff. And I kind of, I didn't really fit in there. And I realized that the people that were in that, in that society that cared about those things were not like me. and that kind of got me to not care about those things as much as I did then. Because I saw people that, you know, kind of attached themselves to those things and cared about those things a lot. And I looked at myself and I'm like, this is not who I am. That sounds to me like acceptance and growth.

I would say so. I mean, I would hope so at least. Yeah. So I'm not detecting that this is some weird coping mechanism in terms of like, being not materialistic. Ironically, if we look at your karmic temperament, it's interesting because I think being born, so what you just described Asmund Gold,

so is actually would be interpreted by some of my teachers is a sign of past spiritual work. So that there's a certain, so it's interesting because like in the Hindu gaming system, or Buddhist, less so of the Buddhists, but more than the Hindu. that essentially like you don't carry over your gear, you don't carry over your stats, but you carry over your XP between incarnations. And what you're describing to me is a generally non-materialistic sentiment, which would be interpreted by some of my teachers as a sign of past spiritual work, which oddly enough is oftentimes coupled with a lot of material success.

and is sort of the formula. This is why, like, Buddha was sort of the same way, too, and he was born as a prince. So his karma was like spawn, like picking a spawn point where you can continue to grow spiritually. And you carry some of your XP with you. So this is something that I've just seen time and again, I don't know if this is like a bias on my part where I'm looking for it. So therefore I find it. But I oftentimes find that people who are not very materialistic and are quite materialistically successful, and unhappy despite their materialistic success, wind up in conversations with me.

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think that's the reason why. Yeah, of course, it makes sense. Now, just to kind of, I'm going to try to close the loop and maybe wrap things up and give you a direction to go. Does that sound okay to you? Or would you like to kind of, okay? So I think going forward, Zach, if I had to make one recommendation for you, it would be to really explore this theme of powerlessness in your life. And so like, have there been times or moments where you felt that inevitability of decay? And I recognize that it manifests in gaming and in your life, but I'd really think about these moments like when you couldn't call an ambulance. Like, that's perfect. That's exactly what we're talking about, right? There's a sense of like there is no matter how hard

you try and what you do, there's nothing. No amount of your effort will succeed. And as you track back and discover those moments in your life, I know you've tried to jump in twice now, as you track back and try to find those moments in your life and as you actually, if you can evoke that feeling of powerlessness in the present, my hypothesis is that your fear of decay will go with it. So how do, How do I evoke a moment of powerlessness without having control over the powerlessness, making the paradox, making, mean it, mean that it's irrelevant? Because like if you, yeah, that's what's confusing to me. Like, how do you, memory?

Yeah. So, so, so, so the way you evoke the feeling is because the, the dormant, the emotion is going to be dormant. So the problem is that like, like you, have you ever worked with a therapist, by the way? Never. So I think if you wanted to see a therapist, I think this. this is what you could work on with someone. So, like, you're going to go in week after week after week.

And you're going to talk about these experiences. And if you find a decent therapist, they're going to find ways to ask you questions that are going to evoke emotion. Because I don't know if you can tell, but over the course of this entire conversation, we keep on moving away from emotion by talking intellectually and philosophically. Well, how do you talk in terms of emotion? Because like for me, I just, the emotions are there. Yeah.

I mean, it made me feel bad. I don't really know exactly how much more I can describe about it. I'm not a very, yeah. Think about whether. So I can't tell you the answer to that question. I have to show you. Okay. Because telling you the answer to the question is operating on an intellectual level and

moving in the opposite direction that we need to. Yeah. It's like even, yeah, talking about it makes it irrelevant in a way. Yeah. So I think it's like, it's like slow conversations where, you know, sometimes when I interview people, like emotions come out. I think you have a interesting natural damage resistance from being on the road to enlightenment. And then you have an additional coping mechanism, which sort of like suppresses and buries some of those emotions. The third thing that could be going on is that these circuits of your brain are suppressed by playing video games.

Yeah. I mean, there's part of that. I mean, I think that it's also like I, I don't want to let go of things that I had. I think that's definitely what it is. I'm very attached to things that I had. And, you know, I remember I saw a friend of mine. I'd never seen this guy. I haven't seen this guy since, like, high school.

And it was the day before I came back to streaming, like last year, I think. And I remember I talked to him, and this is going to sound absolutely degenerate. And that's because it is. but I always told the story of a friend of mine who drew a female dragon masturbating on a chalkboard on the first day of school and he was the guy that did that and I mentioned it to him and he remembered it

and that meant so much to me because nobody else in the whole world thought that fucking thought that shit was true nobody else thought that was true and I remember seeing him and like I drove home and I cried in the car because I got a chance to to remember that it was real

You know, this sounds weird, Zach, but like, I don't know exactly where that story comes from, but what I'm hearing from you is the way to do what I'm telling you to do. And it wasn't just like that moment. That moment is just like one thing, right? But it was like everything about that, you know, the life that we lived, just everything. It was great. I give anything to go back there. I would.

What are you feeling now? I was half my life ago. I feel like it wasn't. Like it feels like it was the, I mean, obviously, it just feels it was a while ago now, unfortunately, but it felt it just sucks, man. You can never go back. So I could see emotion coming up. Yeah. And you got to watch out for Twitch chat, because they're going to bury it.

Right? So, oh, yeah. So, like, like something came up there. You shared a story. Yeah. And then you felt emotion. Yeah, I do. Buried.

It's gone now. You see that? Yeah. I mean, I've never really been a particularly emotional person. I feel like any time that I show my emotions, it's not good. They're mostly bad. Mostly bad emotions. Yeah.

So I think we've got to teach you how to let that stuff out. And when I said, I wasn't optimistic, but I think you just did it. Yeah. Right? And it's weird. But like as you told that story, like we were just talking about something, you tell the story about, you know, a friend of yours who drew a picture of... I want to really emphasize, because it sounds fucking weird, that it was not really about the moment itself. It's what the moment represented.

And all the justifications in the world are going to move away from the emotion. Yeah, you don't have to justify anything. This is just like, I don't know why, but you just did it. When you ask me how do I do it? I don't know. You just did. And this is what I, it's weird. It's just you have to go back to the memory.

And like something about sharing that with him in that moment for things that you had started to doubt and push away and buried came up. And it's painful, but it's cathartic. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I never thought I'd see him again. Yeah. I never thought it would happen. So there are all kinds of interpretations.

we can make there. Like, so for example, the power of that moment is something that you thought was inevitable became not inevitable. Exactly. You would never get closure. And so we can see how that's powerful for you because, like, what's your problem? It's that the inevitable is inevitable. And here's a chance.

Here's a moment where that doesn't have to be the case. And it's like painful, but it's also hopeful. Okay. I can see that. I don't know. I mean, that's an interpretation. but that also is like me going intellectually. Like, I don't know if that's actually fucking true or not.

The point, though, is I don't know what you just did, but you need to do more of it. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I don't know. It just sucks. Like, it's sad because, like, I used to, I used to be, like, really happy about that kind of shit. And now I don't really have that same experience anymore. And I don't know, like, and I feel like I can never have that back because it was the context of my life, you know? It's like my parents were healthy.

I didn't have to worry about a job. I didn't have to worry about a bunch of other weird bullshit. It was just me and the boys hanging out all the time, drawing dragons on a chalkboard and, you know, riding the bus home together, singing along to rap songs. And that was good. It really was good. How are your parents back?

Could be better. Could be worse. They're all right. It doesn't sound like they're all right. well the thing is there's a degree of all right it's kind of like uh so you're pivoting away you're going down the wrong side of the mountain well let me let me explain what i'm saying right is like uh what i was saying before about how like things get worse so slowly that you don't realize that they're happening and then you slowly just accept how how bad that they are yeah there's a day

that my mom started using a cane to walk around that was really painful for me to see and it really hurt me a lot. But because it's happened for like now for a while, I don't feel the same level of like visceral reaction whenever I see you're doing it now. What was it like to see your mom walk with a cane for the first time? It's terrible. It's horrible. What was terrible about it? It's like it's one step down, down that mountain, you know, or a number of steps. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like a really emotional feeling, I guess. It was just like kind of, oh, fuck.

It was just, I don't know. I can't really even describe it. So I think, Zach, this is going to take some work. Right. So I think, but I do still feel optimistic that like, there are too many things here that seem quite familiar to me that I've seen end in a good place. well that's good that that's a relief

right so so i i think part of the issue here is that as you as you say i can't describe it so like yeah i'd have to throw like yeah and that's the problem is like it's it's not about thinking about it like i don't know because it because thinking about it isn't the right thing i'm going to go back to the you know the the dragon on the chalkboard as an example yeah there are certain ways there are like shortcuts level skips and like something about that story was like

the secret tunnel at the end of the Mario Brothers level that warps you to world four. And it's not a logical chain and you can logically chain it out as much as you want to and that's not going to be that effective. The real thing is digging around for those level skips. And when you had that level skip, the emotion came right up. Like it was like, I mean, I think everyone saw it.

Like you were at the verge of tears. Yeah, because like I, you can just for a moment, go back. You can just for a moment go back and realize how good it used to be. So I'm also hearing themes of not just power, powerlessness and inevitability, but of loss, right? Yeah, yeah, I would say so. And so that's also worth digging into. I think, you know, Zach, of all the people that we've talked to on stream, I would strongly recommend that you really think about finding someone to do this kind of work. yeah maybe i mean i i try to uh i try not to think about it as much as i can and maybe maybe i should

try to think about it more yeah so maybe thinking about it isn't the right move working on it but by all means think about it i think it's it's your you know i don't know if you play d and d but you've got an 18 on int well thanks but this is where this is where like i don't know what you're wisdom is, right? Like there's some other dimension of your being, which I think you over rationalize, intellectualize, and philosophize to get away from your kind of like emotional stuff. But I, you know, if you want to think about it, by all means, go for it. Well, yeah, it's like you spend time with yourself processing it. It's like you'll lay in bed. Like a lot of times I'll lay in bed without even no music, not on my phone. And I'll just kind

of experience myself, you know? It's like a form of, I guess, like, uncultured meditation. Yeah. Uncultured. Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting to see, yeah, how unrefined do you think you are? Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, there are a lot of techniques and things like that you can deal with, but it's hard. to, it's, sorry, I was just thinking, I was thinking of something. I, uh, there are a lot of techniques that you can use and it's hard to really know what works and what doesn't, of course. Yep. And that's why I would encourage you to seek guidance from someone who may be a little bit more experienced and who can show you what the right technique is.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I've thought about, like, I try to, like, a lot of times I would try to, like, watch videos about, like, video games and stuff like that. And this is kind of not really the same thing, but it's kind of the same type of idea of, like, bettering yourself. And nowadays, I will always try to watch videos and do things and, and read about things that kind of matter, I guess, to an extent, like history and, you know, mathematics and stuff like that and I've tried to learn more and be a better version of myself, just so I can,

I can process things better and think and have the ability to have that, that knowledge. Like, for me, I, I'm lucky in a way that I have a very good memory, but I waste that memory on remembering video games. Yeah, I'm getting all kinds of weird signals from you. I know. I don't mean that to be judgmental, but it's just it feels like we're opening up new and new avenues of conversation. Because now I have questions like, are you proud of yourself or other people proud of you? Other people are. Are you proud of yourself?

I've done some good things. It's all right. Could be better. It always can be better. So that's a no. Um, I think that I it's like, I'd say it's like, it's, let me tell you what that is. That's a no cloaked in coping and positivity.

Well, it's like, I mean, no, it's a no, it's an intellectualized no. Because like I've, I've succeeded in a number of things on a very, on a very real level, right? Like I've, I've done this. I've done that. I've succeeded at this. I've succeeded at that. Like all of these things are things that I'm proud of, but at the same time, I feel like I could do more or I'm not living up to what potential that I have in my own mind.

The question isn't whether you've done things that you can be proud of. The question is, are you proud of yourself? Um, hmm, I don't know. It's an interesting question. I don't know. Like I would obviously, like the first thing that I would say is no and yes. Because I've been very happy in a lot of ways, like hanging out with my friends, like doing what I want to do. but is that something to be proud of do you do you have to be proud of yourself to be fulfilled

yeah so because like a lot of the sense of pride is like pride in general like oh in this case to some degree is like a construct that exists in context of society so like do i am i proud of you know these accomplishments that i've had in real life well yes to an extent but these accomplishments that I have in real life are these are constructs that exist in society. These are not things that are internal. These are not, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. So when I ask you a question about whether you have pride in yourself, how do you answer?

Well, the answer is very simple. I don't know. And like I'm proud of some things. I'm not of others. I think that's probably, and it's a shit answer. 100%. It's a shit answer, but like, there it is. Yeah. So I think we're, I'm sort of feeling like I don't know that we're going to get to somewhere very productive from this conversation. I think that these are all important conversations. I'm sort of taxed at this point. I feel like I'm Oom.

Yeah, I'm probably go way down afterwards. And so what I would say to you, Zach, is that like when I ask you a question about your feelings, your answer appears to be philosophic. or intellectual in nature. You start talking about constructs and society. Where's what I'm at? Like, pride is an emotion. Well, the motion is emotion. Ah, I mean, aren't they the same thing?

What? Intellectual constructs and society and pride? No. I think so. Like, I mean, in a way, right? Because you have like shame. And like, so if you're ashamed of not having a nice car or something like that, that's completely a society construct.

That's not something that really means a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't really mean a lot as a person doesn't make you grow as a person. This just exists as a thing that you do to make society want to care about you. No. Okay. So shame is a subjective experience. Can shame be caused by certain societal things? Absolutely.

But shame is within. Right? So like, for example, depending on the societal construct, I can be ashamed of my skin color or my grades or the clothes that I wear completely agree. But the experience of shame for those five people depending on the societal construct is still subjective. It's an experience of emotion. Is it triggered by societal constructs? Do societal constructs have something to do with it? Absolutely.

But at the end of the day, like anger or emotion is not a societal construct. Emotion can be triggered by a societal construct. Sure. Are certain people's neurons wired to elicit particular emotions based on certain societal constructs? Absolutely. Yeah. But fundamentally, I think what I'm hearing from you is that when we go towards emotion, your mind interprets,

intellectualizes, rationalizes. And if we think about the story of the chalkboard, there's no interpretation there. It's just raw emotion. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of context behind it. Of course, I mean, like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, like, actual things that happened, yeah.

But, like, like, concepts in the mind are of fundamentally different stuff. than emotions in the mind. It's like woodworking and like, you know, alchemy. Like, it's different stuff, different mats. Yeah. And what I find is that you tend to always go towards the intellectualization, the philosophization, which I think is absolutely one of your strengths, one of your coping mechanisms, and one of the ways that your neurons is wired.

And that I think that you're going to gain a lot. I don't think you're going to be able to logic your way out of the fear of decay, which is really what I'd call it. It's not death. It's like the powerlessness and inevitability. Or maybe you can, actually. You can. But I think that you're going to get far better results by learning, like, picking up a different

secondary skill on your wow character. Because, you know, you can try to, you can chug potions to increase all your stats. But at some point, it's just more efficient to craft yourself some armor and put that shit on. And what I'm hearing is that you're a grandmaster potion maker who's trying to make potions instead of wearing armor. Yeah. I mean, I could see that. Sure. I think for me, like there have been emotions, like shame and things like that that I've had to overcome. And like, you know, I said about going to that school and then feeling ashamed of myself. And so I've gotten through some of those things

for sure, but some other ones, not as much. Yeah. So I think it's just a new skill that you can learn. Yeah. And, you know, I think if you have questions or more, you know, if you want more detailed information about that, like, I feel kind of spent at the moment. So I don't know, but I'd say that, you know, feel free to like sleep on it or I need to sleep on it.

And if you're kind of curious about that or want to learn more, just, you know, ping us. I think generally speaking, people come on stream, I think we'll send you like a packet of information about potentially like options for follow up and how to find a therapist and things like that if you're curious about that. But overall, I think, you know, I really can, I feel like I understand a lot of what you're going through and I don't think it is quite as inevitable. And I think it's solvable. I think you're walking a difficult road.

but it's a road that many people have walked before, and you seem to have a lot of the karmic signs that other people who have walked to this road have walked. Okay. That tendency for not being materialistic, a lot of worldly success early in life, in a sense of dissatisfaction. That's the spiritual road.

And laying on top of that that I think you're going to have to process is more of like a neuronal, psychological, like fear of decay and inevitability and being powerless in the face of certain things, which if we really think about it, sounds like the fear of death, but the more that we tunnel into it, we actually discover that when faced with death,

you're a Chad, you know? And so, like, as terrifying as that is, like you actually know how to accept, you know how to accept parts of yourself. You know how to face death, actually, with some degree of terror and grounding. Yeah, there were a number of times when I was younger.

I would do things that would get me. Pretty close to it. Or pretty close to at least a lot of material harm. Yeah. That is another thing that I find myself being curious about, but don't think I have the manna for the encounter. Don't worry. If you did, I wouldn't cast a spell.

Zach, are you okay with our conversation today? Yeah, I'm great. I really appreciate you bringing me on and talking about it. I hope that, you know, I talk about the, these things. And a reason why I come on is I think that the idea of this is that I think it's important to have people put themselves out there and show that this kind of stuff like mental health and just to a greater extent being able to talk about your problems. And I think people will watch what I say and then they will relate to it and that will help them. So even if it

might make me look weird or look bad, the greater good for it is worth it. Does that make sense. Yeah, of course. Do you think you look bad? I think so. I think anytime that a person reveals their emotions at all, there are a lot of people that resent that. Do you think you look bad? No. Okay. I don't think you look bad at all. Thank you. I think you're quite handsome. Well, at least that's one of us, right? I appreciate it. All right, Zach, thank you very much. You know, I hope you have fun playing Burning Crusade.

Me too. I hope you get more enjoyment out of New World in three days. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Really? I was anyway. Yeah. And then, yeah. Go ahead.

Maybe once you find Inner Peace, you can start developing games for the rest of us. Yeah, I've never been, I like the idea of making games sometimes, but. I took a coding class and it didn't go too well. So I think I'd have to be the idea guy there, the vision person. Sure. We'll see. All right. Thanks a lot, man.

I appreciate it. Thanks for me on. And I'll talk to Twitter. See you. All right. See you. Peace. Let's...

Okay. Chat. That was fun. That was great. You know, I think Zach is fantastic, man. Such a good dude.