HealthyGamerGG - Breaking Down Substance Abuse w/ Dr. K

Episode Date: March 6, 2021

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Um, with that first of all, thanks for coming on. Thank you. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about, uh, you know, like what, what, what I should call you today? My name's Noah. Noah. Okay. Yeah. And then, um, and Noah, what, what, what do you want to talk? What are we talking about today or, or anything I can help you with? Um, I don't know if there's anything you can help me with, but honestly, I'm trying to come in here.

And honestly, it's an honor to contribute. to your, I guess you would call it a movement right now. So I'm just trying to talk about whatever might be relevant to other people dealing with substance abuse. Okay. I guess we could start because I'm really curious about how one would determine if they are addicted to something or not. Okay.

Sure. Yeah. And how do you tell if you're addicted to something or not, Noah? I don't fall. Sorry, can I swear? I think so. Okay. I don't fucking know.

No, dude. So I have, in my story, there's three primary substances, nicotine, like cigarettes, pouches, the like, cannabis and alcohol. Okay. And the problematicness of each of those is always different. And so medicinal, I have my medicinal cannabis card, and that is a substance where I really struggle to know. am I getting medicinal benefits from this or am I an addict rationalizing this through a government paywall? Does that make sense? Absolutely, man. So like, I'm very curious about that.

Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about, can you just tell me, okay, let me just think about this for a second, how to approach this conversation. So do you, hmm, do we ask about background first or do we, Yeah, let's talk about background for a minute. And then we'll get to that, get back to that question. Okay. So can you help me understand a little bit about, you know, have you had problems with any of these substances in the past? Yeah.

They've all kind of caused problems. But with me personally, I'm not sure if it's the substances that are causing the problems or if I am just a glutton. You know what I mean? Can you help us understand that? Well, I recently, sorry, my jacket is like messing with me. I recently hit rock bottom, if you could call it, that with alcohol. And I reached out to a lot of my family who I come from a family of alcoholics, let me tell you. And they had beautiful advice.

One of them being, hey, Noah, watch out. During your first week of withdrawal from alcohol, you're going to get a sweet tooth like a mofo. So, I mean, I was eating a lot of sweets in the past couple of weeks or so. But even before I discovered alcohol, before I discovered cannabis or nicotine, I was a huge spender, like going and getting dozens of donuts and just eating them all myself, just chasing that dopamine kind of thing. And so that's what makes me think. Perhaps this isn't a substance thing.

Maybe this is something in meat. So it almost sounds like you're kind of referring to like an addictive personality. Yes. Oh, one second. And what do you mean by rock bottom? It's hard to say because I was blackout drunk when I hit it, man. What do I mean by rock bottom? So my rock bottom was on a Sunday.

Okay. And before this Sunday, there was a Thursday where I also got really. drunk. On this Thursday, I had a really good night with, you know, me and my roommate and we were just chilling and she wasn't drinking, but maybe 9 p.m. rolls around and I start drinking. And I drink a little too much. And so out of nowhere, I'm just vomiting in the bathroom. And I'm super embarrassed and my roommate has to like look out for me and it's this horrible thing and the next day I'm like, yo, I'm so sorry. I promise you I'm not an alcoholic. Like I just got a little twisted yesterday and I hope you know that this is not something that's going to happen again

because last year I also had problems with alcoholism. So that's what happened Thursday. And then my rock bottom on Sunday, man, I don't even remember. Because I took, I remember getting home from the liquor store and then the next morning waking up still drunk. While I'm at work, I text my roommate like, hey, what happened last night? And she just responds with, you need help. And that, oh, man, oh, man. It's a hard thing to digest because you don't even know what you're digesting. I'll tell you though, I never cried as hard in my life as a,

I did that day. What made you cry? Why were you crying? I'm not one to reach out for help. I'm a very figure-it-out myself kind of guy. But that Monday, I texted everyone. I texted my mom, my older brothers that both dealt with this, my dad. And it's not weird for me to come out and be like, hey, I think I have a drinking problem.

It's not weird for me to do that, especially given the fact that literally everyone, even my little brother, has this issue. But reaching out and saying, hey, I have a problem and I want to stop this, that was hard to admit to myself, I feel. What made it hard to admit to yourself? I never thought I would have this problem. I didn't start drinking until I was 19. Now I'm almost 24, 24 and 13 days. And here I am dealing with alcoholism. Okay.

What makes you think you have a problem? With alcohol in particular, it is that, that's an amazing question. Why do I think I have a problem with alcohol? Because the way it makes me feel, I never drink and feel proud of it. As a matter of fact, I drink and then I want to drink more. And then I'm constantly trying to drink more. And I never really got a grasp on the concept of moderation, especially with alcohol, because alcohol turns you into a person that doesn't moderate things. I had to recognize that. Me personally, I can't get carried away by that. And how do you feel when you have a drink?

The first drink is always relieving. What does it relieve? It does two things. It makes me feel cool and it relieves me of anxieties and responsibility, I guess, I would say. Because I'm going to drink when it's either in the face of, oh, this essay I got to do. I'm too stressed out. So I'm just going to down a shot. And then boom, I got the looseness to engage in this activity.

Yeah. That rationalized it. Now, I don't do nicotine or alcohol, but I do continue with my meddicinal cannabis. But my rule is I don't do it when I work, not when I'm doing essays, not nothing, not right now. And I've liked that. That's really vibe with me. Okay. Noah, so I'm going to ask you kind of a quick question about, so just what you want to get out of this conversation?

And every time, you know, we have someone on stream, I know that a lot of people kind of come on to help our community and movement or whatever. And that's wonderful. That's why we do this on stream. But I know it sounds kind of weird, but in my mind, I actually don't think about helping our community when I talk to an individual. What I really focus on is helping that one person, because this is one chance that we have over the course of our lives where, you know, two human beings are meeting for like an hour or two. And what I'd really like to understand is like how I can help you in this moment. And I kind of have two thoughts. One is that like we can have sort of a personal conversation where I ask you about your

history. You know, we kind of dig into like why you're a figure it out myself kind of person. I think that's going to be a really important part of your personal journey. You know, your self-reliance, how it's like difficult to reach out for help. I think it'll be like a more standard sort of stream, maybe a little bit emotional catharsis, maybe a little bit emotional catharsis, maybe a little bit of tears, you know, like all the standard stuff that, you know, people will feel connected to you. You'll, you know, there's kind of that standard stuff. The other thing that I'm noticing is that, you know, it seems like you have particular questions and experiences. And so the other direction that we could do is a little bit more

academic. So, so like, for example, we could talk a little bit about here, just the things that we could talk about. So like, you know, the biological nature of addiction and it's like hereditary kind of nature. You know, addictive personalities, how do you know if you have a problem and like what makes an addiction? These are also going to be like semi-personal conversations. But I'll have basically like some teaching to do. You know, like this idea of addiction and moderation being like an alien thing.

This idea of like, you know, the first drink is about relief and loosening yourself so that you can be normal. And then the problem arises because that's never where it stops. You know, I think that word looseness that you said is a beautiful word because it really encapsulates like what a lot of people experience. There are also kind of these things about like, it's not going to happen again. I'm not an alcoholic. The rules that we come up for ourselves. So what are the things that our mind does? There's this broader issue of like, you know, yeah. So I think There's a lot of stuff that you've gone through that I think is, like, widely applicable. And if you, and it really comes down to you.

Like, what do you want? Do you want to try to do a more emotional exploration of your past? Or do you want to try to map out, like, what addiction could potentially look like and see what boxes you check? Yeah. Well, there is something I do want to get out of it, but I'm really scared. Okay. I'm really scared. Can you help me?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Help me understand that. Here's what I'm afraid of, Dr. Kay. I'm afraid of coming on here, being honest about my history, my habits, and I'm afraid of you telling me that I might have a bigger problem than I realize. Okay. When I say things like, oh, I'm still using medicinal cannabis, but I don't know if I'm addicted or not to that. You know, so things like that are in my head and I'm really scared to talk about it, but I think we should. I think we should.

Okay. So let's, okay, so let's talk about it. So what would it mean to you if I said, Noah, I think you have a bigger problem than you realize? I don't know why it's a little relieving to hear you say that, actually. Is that weird? Nope. That's why I asked the question. Yeah.

I was searching like, oh, man, do I feel, yeah, sorry. So let me just illustrate what we just did there. Okay. So you have a fear. Okay. So like sometimes in life, like we're afraid that someone is going to say no or someone is going to say yes. Like we're afraid of a particular outcome.

And so our mind instinctively like withdraws from it, right? And we don't face it. We run away from it. So the first thing to do is not to answer the question or not to say, Noah, you have a problem. and push you into that fear. If we want to overcome this, what we really have to do is understand

what it is that you're afraid of. What is the impact? What does it mean for your life? If I say, Noah, you got to give up cannabis. You are addicted. Right? Like, what is the impact? Like, anytime there's a hypothetical

in our mind that we're trying to avoid, the first step to facing it is figuring out what is it truly that we're trying to avoid. So what if I told you, Noah, I think you have. a bigger problem than you realize. What would that mean for you? It would mean that you are affirming something that I had suspected for a long time.

And what do you suspect? I suspect that I got to be totally clean, straight edge, no substances, not even caffeine. You know, that's always like been my ideal. And straight, but idealize always hurt me kind of. Yeah. So I know this sounds kind of weird, Noah, but I don't need to hear anything else because I agree with you. And here's the reason why. I think you probably need to be totally sober. That's my instinct right now. And the reason is because I trust you. It's not about what I say. It's about the things that you kind of know. Like it sounds to me like you know. Huh? I don't trust me. I know. I understand that you don't trust you. But I trust. I understand that you don't trust you. But I trust. trust you. How does that work? Because I don't trust myself to make the right, I don't trust myself to identify my characteristics accurately. I understand that you don't trust you, but what I'm saying is I trust you. But that sounds like a fallacy. How could you possibly trust me? You don't know me.

Do you know yourself? Don't know. Okay. So then why would you say that then neither of us knows you? And so why would you weight yourself. I mean, then it's a watch, right? Okay. Okay. So it's just as valid for you to trust me as it is for me to distrust myself. Yeah.

And here's the reason I trust. Because I think that like generally speaking, I understand how minds work. And I think that you are going through this process of coming to terms with what you have to do. But deep down you know, what I hear is not that you're ignorant. it's that you believe something and you're resistant to that belief. You're resistant to the consequences of what you already know. That's what I'm hearing from you.

Consequences of what I already know. Okay. Now I'm thinking about why am I so resistant against this? Exactly. That's the right question. So then the question becomes, what does it mean to you to give up everything. To give up everything.

That's a difficult, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it. Okay. Sorry, I'm like trying to think, you're not my regular therapist, so I'm trying not to like get tunnel visioned in on you. I want to like keep this like applicable to other people. But could you repeat the question? Sorry. Yeah. So what like when you say you're, there's a part of you that's like if I tell you you have a bigger problem than you realize, then what are you afraid of? You're afraid that you have to give up everything, right? You have to give up marijuana. You have to give up caffeine. Like,

you have to give it all up. And then the question becomes, what does that mean for you? Like, what is that practically why? You know, obviously it's going to be difficult, but like, what, what do you resist about doing that? I resist. I resist. I resist the, the, the place. that it all brings me. And caffeine is an interesting one because caffeine is the wrench in the system because I tell myself, like, I'll get a red bull in the morning and I'll hate myself for it. But then a part of my mind will be like, why are you beating yourself up so much about this? You're crazy for being so anti-caffeine.

And then that makes me question the validity of wanting to quit anything because I'm like, oh, this is just my social anxiety. This is just my self-deprecation being like, oh, you've got to be a junkie because you're just a shitty person. And like, do I need to quit caffeine? And therefore, do I need to quit alcohol? Do I need to quit nicotine? Does that make sense?

Yeah, what kind of person would you be if you had to quit substances? This isn't going to make sense. This is like a personal thing I'm saying to me, but I would be the man I imagined when I was a good Christian, little boy. I was incredibly religious up until freshman year of high school. And I mean, I think these feelings of wanting to be straight-edge are coming from this little

sixth grader that thinks he's going to get all his answers from the Bible. Does that make sense? Sure. Makes one. Yeah. But to answer your question even better, I think I would be a good. pretty decent person. Okay.

What's wrong with having a Red Bull in the morning? What do you say to yourself when you have a Red Bull in the morning? My heart's going to hate me in a couple years for this. You know? And also there is validity to it because I drink Red Bull and then I feel the palpitations in my heart and I'm like, I know I shouldn't feel my heartbeat right now. This is not good for me. So, you know, I do feel full.

valid in saying things like that. So I'm kind of hearing you, Noah, being a little bit stuck. Oh, yeah, boy. Yeah. So let me ask you something. How do you feel about not being religious anymore? I think I made the right decision. I think, um, yeah. So I think I, I think that's indoctrinated. So, so I, I kind of see, like, I think this is becoming actually a little bit clear to me. So like, I want to just point out to you, this is going to be hard. But so let's just think about using a substance.

So if you quit substances, in a sense, you're going back to like your pre ninth grade self. Like you're a good little Christian boy. And there's a part of you that recognizes that leaving, like letting that good little Christian boy go is part of your growth. So in a sense, quitting substances is going back, taking a step backward. Like you become back into the indoctrinated sort of thing. Because when I asked you like, you know, how would you feel if you gave up substances and you're like, I feel like I'm a good little Christian boy again. And there's a part of you that doesn't want to be that inappropriately so, right? Like you kind of grew out of it.

So the first thing is that and this is where there are a lot of things that your mind kind of conflates and mixes together. And then so that's one side where, you know, you almost go back to being a good little Christian boy, which is something that is. It sounds like you probably had to work hard to get away from that place in the first place. And then there's also, you know, all the Christian motifs of things like Alcoholics Anonymous and things like that, which can kind of reinforce, you know, some of that thinking. And then the other problem is that, you know, if you continue doing substances, you kind of, you know, if you give up substances, you also sort of like give up some of your personal growth in a weird way. Like, that's what I'm hearing. Huh. That's so true. Yeah, yeah. What do you mean by that? What's so true about that? I mean, I'm thinking back to all the ways I used substances to help me, especially in, I'm a linguist. I study Spanish.

And especially in my social anxiety and learning Spanish and exposing myself to different ways of being, marijuana has really helped me in amplify certain anxieties that under the influence of cannabis, I was able to finally grab and then understand. And then in my sober life, I was able to process them better. So it was a very growthful thing, these substances. Less so alcohol and nicotine, though. And so I think on the other side of the equation, you know, it sounds like you are very judgmental towards yourself. for using substances. So how do you feel about drinking Red Bull? I think it's not necessary.

I think I do it for the identity. What identity is that? I used to be really into parkour, like stuntman kind of stuff. So all throughout high school, I would like steal mats from the gymnastics team and like practice my roundabouts with a Red Bull that I got from the local gas station and shit.

It was like very nostalgic, memories I have with Red Bull in particular. So, yeah, that kind of thing. I guess I'm kind of like missing that ambitious little kid that was doing backflips in the gym when no one was looking. Let me just. Okay. Yeah. So I know what I'm really hearing from you is that substances are like tangled up with your identity.

Right. Not just the Red Bull, but also like sort of like the being the good little Christian boy, that there are a lot of like, parts of you that even anxiety, I mean, marijuana helped you understand about yourself. So like, it feels to me like substances and who you are kind of get tied together. What do you think about that? I think you're exactly right. There's also, I have a thought that's very loud in the back of my head that I'd like to voice about the good-working boy thing. Because maybe this can enlighten you about my addictive personality. But my first, this is embarrassing.

This is embarrassing, but kind of innocent because I was in middle school. My first ever addiction was to masturbation. And it was essentially that, you know, hating myself so much for watching porn because I was a good Christian boy, right? That my struggles with dealing with what I felt like was a masturbation addiction, that's why I renounced God as a freshman in high school. And it's so silly to say out loud. Wait, can you help me understand that?

You renounced God because you're jerking off? Dude, I was so beaten down by the guilt of jerking off that I was like, fuck these rules, man. Like, I don't believe in this God shit. It's going to allow me to jerk off. And that was that. I stopped going to church. So what I'm sort of hearing is that you figured it out yourself. You know, you're not going to play by anyone else's rules.

That's not the response I expected. Why do you say that? I figured it out because I felt like that would be a bad thing, what I did. What would be a bad thing? I perceived my masturbation habit as an addiction. And then I pursued that addiction as I saw it as a, addiction instead of being a religious man. And from the perspective of the man I was, I had committed the ultimate sin.

Yeah. So, but I also, so here's what I understand where you're coming from because that's how you felt at that time. But if we think about, you know, someone leaving a religion that they were indoctrinated against at the age of 13, that sounds to me like someone who is letting go of, you know, societal conventions and kind of living by their own rules. Hmm. I don't really resonate with that.

Okay. To be honest. I feel like I missed an opportunity back then. I feel like I missed an opportunity back then to conquer my addictive personality. Because even today... Do you regret it? Do you regret it? Absolutely.

So now you have to be really careful. Noah, because what I'm hearing you fall into is a very common trap that people with addictions have, which is that if there was a fork in the road many years ago, and if I had taken a different fork, I would not be where I am today. Okay. Right? It's kind of interesting. Like, we all do this where we say like, oh, like, it's not just people with addictions, right?

It's sort of like the one who, you know, if you let the one get away, you kind of think back, oh, that was the right relationship for me. like I let them get away. I shouldn't have done that. My whole life would be different today. They do this really interesting thing where like instead of solving the problem that you face today, you go back to the past, you rewrite history through fantasy to create a hypothetical present. Rewriting the past through fantasy is a huge thing I do.

Is that a symptom of addiction or is that something like everyone does? No, it's something that, you know, I call it the fantasy trap. And it's sort of like this weird sort of the three dimensions to it from kind of a neuroscience and psychological perspective. But like, you know, it's just something, it's sort of like a coping mechanism that keeps people stuck. And because what happens is you're like, like, so if you're in the present and you're facing a situation, like, let's say you're trying to figure out if you're addicted. If you really think about it, that's a really difficult question. There's a lot of challenges around it. You have to maybe give up things.

You don't want to give up things. And so your mind does, plays this really interesting trick. It goes back to when you were 13. And then it says, if you had done this, then imagine where your life would be now. And then you think about how easy things would be, how wonderful things would be. And then an hour goes by and your life hasn't changed. But suddenly the question of being an addict is like disappeared from your mind. It's kind of, it's a weird sort of coping mechanism.

It's not exclusive to addiction. But I do see it happen. in an addiction. Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. And so, because at the end of the day, like, your mind is not thinking about solving. So if you think about, like, literally what your, you know, mental energy is being spent on, it's not being spent on solving the issue of whether you're an addict today. Your mental, like, literally the thoughts in your head are devoted to rewriting history. And then, like, you run out of mana and there's this weird fantasy about how things would have been different. And then, like, you don't actually

make any change in your life. Because your mind is not thinking about what can I change today. It's thinking about how today would be different if only I had dot, dot, dot. Yeah. I do that with a, I don't know if this is the same thing you're talking about, but with my social anxiety, I do that a lot too, where it's like, oh, this interaction when I was a child, like really traumatized me. And if I had said something differently, then I wouldn't carry that trauma from that

event, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is where like, you know, it's weird, but your mind focuses on, but that's, it's hard to say, but that's a completely unproductive way of thinking. I'm not trying to, like, shame you or anything, but I'm saying like literally technically, that does not do anything for your present problem. Yeah. Right? So like the fact. On Sunday and then not going to the grocery store, just getting fat food.

I'm sorry. Can you say that again? It's like creating a meal plan being like, yeah, I'm going to get my left. together, exercise every day, and then you just don't do it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you're just thinking, you spend all the time thinking about everything that you're going to do and then end up not really doing it.

But let's kind of go back to, let me just think for a second. So what, so do you think you're addicted to alcohol? Do you identify as an alcoholic? Really, but I do see a problem between me and alcohol. And what is that a problem? I drink and I don't stop. You know, I don't drink frequently. Before, it was like maybe four times a month I would drink,

four or five times a month I would drink, but every time I drank, it was like rolling the dice, man. You really don't know if I'm going to clean the entire apartment or cuss out my roommate. And that shit was really scary. Yeah, like, Like my story with the Thursday, Sunday kind of rock bottom thing. Like one day was really good.

And it was like, don't worry, you threw up. It happens. We all get a little two turns sometimes. And then the next day being like, you said some really shitty stuff last night. You need help because it came out of nowhere. That's why I have a problem. And what's your problem with that? I recognize that alcohol is something that if I touch,

I need to surrender that I do not have control. I need to surrender my control. Or it's inevitable that I am surrendering my control because I cannot look back in hindsight on all the horrible shit I've done while drunk and then say, oh, if I had done something different, I can't say that. Instead, it's like, you were drunk, that's on you,

that's on your drunk self. Don't let it happen again. Yeah, so that I think is a great way to tell if you're addicted or not. Right? So I think that's sort of the nature of it. So the first question that you asked me is like, how do you know if you actually have a problem? I think that's a beautiful way to describe it. And I think the issue is that substances, you know, they affect our mind.

And either we're in control of the substance or the substances is in control of us. and what I'm hearing you really say is that like you you know you kind of give up you kind of put things on auto play and like once you become drunk Noah like and this also has to do a little bit with sort of like consciousness and mind and things like that I think that like there's a part of you that is aware right and so it healthy game we try to cultivate like awareness of the true self which is actually outside of the mind and anytime you use you use a phrase like blackout drunk. What I'm hearing is that your mind is technically operating, right? Because you're still doing things, you're saying things, things like that. But there's no awareness. And so it's actually a beautiful example of like complete oblivion of awareness. And if we look at the road to enlightenment, it's actually in the opposite direction. Because the goal of like moving towards enlightenment is to cultivate our sense of awareness that exists outside of our mind and our body. Okay. Can you elaborate on that? You

lost me in how both of those things are outside of the mind, but I missed how enlightenment is the opposite spectrum. So if we think about blackout drunk, so like right now, you're thinking, right? So earlier today, said this beautifully. You were like, I have a loud thought in the back of my mind. So if we think about what that statement means, it means that there is a part of you that is observing the action of your mind. You don't say, you don't say, I have a thought, you say, I have a thought in my mind, which implies that your mind is an object and you are outside of it. Like, I have a pain in my hand. This isn't me. It's my hand. I have a crack in my bottle. I am not the bottle. This is my bottle. You're using the possessive to imply that the

mind is something that you own. Does that make sense? Which in turn means that you are not your mind, because you can notice it the same way that you can notice the fingers of your hand. But if I lose my hand, it would be a tragedy because I couldn't play games anymore. But I would still be me, right? The meanness would exist. And if we think about like what meditation does, what meditation does is help helps us strengthen the eye outside of mind. So as we become awareness, as our awareness of things grow, like this is when we tell people to take a step back, right? So I'm tortured. I'm all upset because I've gotten dumped by my girlfriend.

And then my friends tell me to take a step back. And when I'm able to take a step back, I suffer less. I begin to see things more objectively. My life gets better, you know? And so the road to enlightenment is all about separating the awareness from the mind and cultivating that sense of awareness. Okay. Like, I am not my thoughts. Rather, the, vehicle for such. I don't know what you mean by vehicle, but... Like, I'm the thinker of my thoughts. I didn't want to say thinker.

Yep. Yep. Good. I'm the thinker, right? So I am like the liver in, like, isn't the person who lives within my body. I'm the part, like, so there is a sense of you that exists outside of mind and outside of body. Because your body changes, your mind changes, but you remain the same, right?

There's a person, like, you used to be. be three years old. And then you were a nine-year-old good Christian boy. And then you are like a rebel parkour person. And now you're like someone who's sort of like grappling with, you know, who you are and what your worth is. And during all of those moments, there's a certain noonness that transcends each of those individual fluctuations. Certain noonness. Now, is that where I want some work to go figuring out what that noonness is? Yes. because that's where you're all tangled up. Because even when you were a good Christian boy, you were still Noah.

And when you were a bad Christian boy, you were still Noah. And before you realized you had a problem, you were still Noah. And after you realized you had a problem, you're still Noah. And this is where, like, you know, you judge yourself a lot for being a bad person for drinking Red Bull because you're screwing up your life. And I would venture that part of the reason you're beating yourself up is because you know four years from now that you're going to go back to the fantasy traffic. and regret all those red bulls you drink.

And then you're going to be telling yourself, if I had not drank all those red bulls, then I wouldn't be in this situation. And then you really, really hate yourself because, like, even now, all of those fantasies that you're going to be thinking in the future, you can't fix them now. I don't know if I just lost either, but like...

So now, in regard to my substance abuse, I think I have a lot of fantasy traps that I escape through substances. Like, sorry, I'm trying to think of what I want to say, how much I want to say. It wasn't easy growing up in my household. And I think I have a lot of fantasy traps about things that happened in that house. And I think I escape those traps with substances. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I think it would help a lot if you could provide an example. but if you don't feel comfortable, I think that's totally fine. Yeah, well, I was talking to Zach about this yesterday when I was like, how I have theories for why I struggle with substance abuse. I don't know if you're familiar with the attachment styles by Poole Heller, I think. I'm a very anxious, ambivalent kind of person, which means for stream, like my caregivers, my parents were very on and off. like you cannot expect my mom to provide affection or hatred at any kind of given moment. And as such, it was really difficult to have a consistent spot where I could really breathe and enjoy myself.

It was instead, it was always like a constant, okay, what do I got to say to keep mom happy? Okay, where do I got to avoid to stay away from mom? You know, like shit like that. and if we're talking about fantasy traps man i i fantasize about what i would have done if i was a stronger kid that would have stood up to her and i hate myself so much for not standing up to her that i drink yeah and what what is it what does it do for you when you drink it makes me stop thinking about it because otherwise i'm a very vata kind of mind i can't stop even at the end of the day, like after I finish my homework, I'll lay in bed and I'll be like, shit, I should be working on that freaking art project or whatever.

So, and it's the same with my trauma. Like the trauma never stops. I never stopped thinking about it and I never stop thinking about how much better, how much more productive I would be if X, Y, and Z didn't happen to me. So that's why I drink. Yeah. So what I'm noticing is that, you know, this idea of the fantasy trap is, um, is, feels really, really relevant to you. You notice yourself doing that a lot.

And so this is what I enjoy about these conversations. So just, I'm going to just send you a quick DM after we're done with the call. But I have some other thoughts kind of about the fantasy trap and things like that. But so, and if I don't DM you, just please DM me to remind me, okay? Okay. So I want to just point out a couple of things. And one is, so we've kind of kind of kind of. got another fork in the road here, which is like, do we go down the fantasy trap route or do we go down sort of like stick with addictions and trauma and whatnot?

I would just want to. Okay. So I think that, you know, the key thing here is that if we think about what alcohol does for you or substances is that it quiets your mind, right? It helps you forget. It reduces your anxiety. And now we kind of get to your question about like, you know, do I have to give up marijuana? I have a medical reason for it. And I think that you don't have to give it up, but I think it's the same thing. And what do I mean by that? So, like, if we think about the function of medical marijuana or even a medically prescribed medication, like a, you know, pharmaceutical medication for acute anxiety, what its aim is to calm the mind. Right. So, like, whether you use alcohol to calm the mind, whether you use marijuana to calm the mind, whether you use larasapam or clonapin to calm the mind, all of these are artificial substances that are used to reduce your emotional, like, negative energy, right?

So then the issue is not one of, like, whether it does that or not. It's just an issue of, like, where on the spectrum it is. So, you know, as medical professionals, we sort of acknowledge and admit that there are some addictive substances like marijuana and things like Xanax that we prescribe to people to relieve the emotion. artificially relieve the emotion of their mind. Now, alcohol does the same thing for you. It's just alcohol hurts a lot more, causes a lot more problems. And so this is where, you know, there's kind of like, I'm not, I'm kind of very simple in my mind about this, that there's like a spectrum. You use all substances to relieve the emotions in your mind. Even though people who don't have a drinking problem still do the same thing, right? Like, if I, go to happy hour after like a long week at work and I kind of like decompress, I'm still using

the substance to like mentally relieve me in some way. So that's what substances do. It's just where on the spectrum does each substance lie? And this is where like, do I think it's healthy if you stop smoking marijuana? Absolutely. Do I think you're ready yet? Probably not. Do I think you need to be ready right now? Probably not. And I think it's a journey. Right? So when when we think about addictions, it's like you start with the biggest problems first, and then you don't have to make a commitment to be sober from all things, including caffeine today. And this is also where, like, you know, the fantasy trap is kind of like, it tricks us into thinking that we have to be perfect. That's the real problem with the fantasy trap, is that, you know, you have these thoughts and then

you think if this had happened, everything would be amazing today. And that's not, even if that was the case, like, that's just not how life works. Like, everything would. wouldn't be amazing today. It's just not, you know, you got to, like, you can't go from level zero to level 10. You got to go like level one, level two, level three, level four, level five. And in your case, what I'm really hearing, no, is that like, it's time to really focus on alcohol. That's going to have its whole own host of problems. Because right now, you have a lot of emotional energy around being sober. The challenge is going to arise when like, you know, a month from now, you know, I haven't asked you this question yet, but what was in your mind when

you went to the liquor store? always in my mind when I went to the liquor store. Well, for one, I was already drunk. Horrible mistake. Don't drink and drive. What was going through my mind? God, I just wanted more. I just wanted more relief from what I have no idea.

What goes through your mind when you purchase alcohol and you're sober? I'm thinking about the imagery of taking the drink. I'm thinking about how cool I'm going to feel when I have like a, glass of whiskey with some ice cubes in it. I'm just thinking life will be better in a couple of minutes. That's one thing. That's the dangerous thought.

Okay. Right? Because like that's the moment. So people always think it's like like that's the. So here's the real challenge, Noah, like a month from now. Like right now you're like filled with shame and you're filled with I got to do it and I got to grow and I got to be a better person. I'm going to talk to Dr. K. I'm going to learn more about myself. It's going to be great. We're on this journey of growth, man. We're on this journey of growth together. And then like over time, the emotional energy from the shame of your

roommate kind of messaging you or whatever, like that's going to start to dwindle, you know, the messages between your family. Like, they're all supporting you right now. I'm like, this is a problem with like support from other people. It comes like a torrent instead of a drip. Right. And it comes like a flood. And we can see this a lot when like when there's grief. It's like everyone's like, oh my God. Like, or I see this a lot in people who are diagnosed with cancer where like for the first month, everyone's on board. And nine months into chemo, no one's around.

And you said nine months in no one's doing chemo or no one's supporting the population? No one's supporting the person is doing chemo. Like everyone's there and they're like, yeah, like I'll cook for you. I'll do everything. And then nine months, like, no one's around to take people to their appointments. No one's around. Like, it's tough. That's horrible.

It is horrible. Are there like volunteer groups for like, uh, sure. There are all kinds of, you know, systems in place to help those people, medical professionals being at the top of the list, right? Because obviously we're still around. But I just want to kind of point out that even like when someone passes away, it's like you get a thousand messages when someone hears that, you know, someone passed away. and then a year later when it's their birthday, like it's crickets. Right. And so you're going to get a bunch of support.

You have a bunch of emotional energy. But over time, I just think about this, Noah, like emotions don't last forever. Right. So that emotional energy, that motivation, the emotional motivation is going to wane over time. It's going to decrease. And then a month from now or two months from now or on like August 4th, you're going to be like, oh man, feeling good is just a few. moments away. Yeah.

And the shame is going to be far away then. Yeah. Well, I don't know because it's so interesting what's happened in the past week because I have felt so proud of myself for, well, okay, it's been hard. Since quitting nicotine and alcohol, I've been like a neurotic mess, dude. Like, I'm walking around the house, like just having like these little mini screams of like pent up energy. that I just cannot release now.

But it just feels so good. I don't know if this is something I should expect to dwindle, but I get a lot of fulfillment. On Monday, you were talking about tarma. And I'm wondering if my Dharma right now is to get clean. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

So absolutely. So this is where there are some things that will sustain you, right? Because, like, people are sober for years. And this is where I think if you're, if this is a Dharmic pursuit, that will sustain you. If it's an emotional pursuit, that won't. Like, if you're quitting alcohol because of the shame, like, what I'm hearing is that, you know, you got a text message from your roommate and they were like, you need help. And it was like shattering and grand and profound. And you realized that's all like.

that's all going to dwindle. Yeah. But taking confidence and being fulfilled about, you know, like moving your life in the direction that you want it to go, that will absolutely sustain you. In fact, that's what you need. That's what's going to fight off the, I'm moments away from feeling so good. I'm just mere moments away from feeling so good. And Dharma can fight against that, absolutely. Yeah.

Parma is the only thing that can fight against that. Yeah. Right? Because I have thought in the past, like, I've tried to get clean in the past. And I've had these struggles before. And I don't want it to be like, oh, I'm just on the hype train. I'm getting all emotional. But now, man, I've seen that this really fulfills me in a profound way when I exercise discipline and impulse control.

Yeah. So I think those are positive. I think the other thing that you're doing that is a very good. good prognostic sign is that you are learning to tolerate your negative emotions. Right? So I hear you being a train wreck and like, good job. Because if we think about it, what are the substances do for you? Is they take away you being like a neurotic mess, right? And so the interesting thing, if we really look at like conquering addictions, I think a lot of it is being able to tolerate and withstand the thing that the addiction takes away.

because if you can survive it without the addiction, you no longer need the addiction. And now we get to like a second principle of like, you know, how do I know if someone is addicted? Everyone has coping mechanisms. When the coping mechanism becomes the only tool in your belt, that's when it becomes an addiction. Okay. Right? So like if I have a long day and I decide to play a video game and like no big deal. but when I'm having a bad day, the only thing I can do is to play a video game.

And then like the video game becomes my soul escape, becomes my sole crutch, becomes my like dominates the avoidance of the problems in my life. Like is such a good way to avoid all the problems in my life. That's when it becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. So just to summarize, I think. like you being, I know it sounds weird, it's, you suffer, you suffer a lot in the moment when you have these little, you know, you said you have these little like screams or whatever, but I think like

your ability to sit with that ultimately is a very good prognostic sign about your long-term sobriety. Now that is very assuring. Thank you. It just sucks. You know, tell you're going to suffer. Because I'm sitting there thinking like, am I going to be like screaming into my pillow for the rest of my life like a freaking maniac or like but nah nah that's crazy i hope uh yeah but i'm i'm so curious about uh correct me if i'm being presumptuous but you struggle with video game addiction correct yeah when did you personally if i may ask realize this is a problem that i really got to get under control oh from the beginning bro from the first time you picked up a video game control no no not not the first time I picked up the video game, but like I knew it was a problem years before I did anything about it.

Right? And it was it was kind of like, you know, when I say that there's a part of you that actually knows you're just resistant to it. That's that comes from my own experience. Like looking back on it. Like I mean, you fucking know. Like you know. Like you know. Like when I, you know my third week of freshman year before I failed any classes when I like. am skipping all my classes for a week and playing Diablo, like, I know there's a problem. Yeah. Like, and that's, that's actually what was the vicious cycle is like, I knew it was a problem. I could see my future slipping away from me one day at a time. And the thought of like watching that future like slip away, like one day at a time was so painful that I escaped through video games. And then two days had gone by.

And now I've messed up twice. And that shame I couldn't sit with. So I played another day of video games. And then three days had gone by. The shame increases. The need for video games increases. And every step I take, I get deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. And like, I'm like going down a tunnel and I can see the light.

Like, every step I take, like the light is getting further and further away. And the further away the light gets, like, the more I can't handle it. Yeah. I'm like, sorry. What? My roommate just texted me saying, I'm watching you right now. I love you so much. And I'm like, oh.

That's so scary how you describe it because God damn is that accurate. How so? God, the freaking going down the rabbit hole and then seeing the like gradually just get tinier and tinier and tinier and tinier. It's so hard to convince yourself. that I, as a man that gets drunk and swears out the people that love him, as a man that smokes weed and shows up to a date barely conscious, you know, as a guy that smokes cigarettes at work until he's passing out while washing the cars, like, how is that guy even worth escaping

that rabbit hole? Why does he deserve to escape the rabbit hole? How is he going to? Like, fuck that guy, man. So I have a question of how can an addicts develop enough self-love to get a shit about themselves? I feel like that's a flawed question, though. Why is it a flawed question? I think self-love is missing the point because I think it's more like I think the point is not wasting your life away, like you mentioned.

But then again, I guess that is self-love because you love yourself enough to not. I mean, you seem like you're, you know, exploring important territories. So just fill us in on what you think, Noah. Ah, shit, man. I, this is what I was scared of because I'm so, I do this with my normal therapist, too. Like, I get so anxious of like, am I talking about the right thing right now? Yeah. Could you direct me a bit, assuage my anxiety? Sure. So let's start in a place that will potentially rampant. up your anxiety. I'm going to ask you a weird question. So I'm getting I'm getting a little bit of of like a mask from you, Noah. So you seem really, really authentic, but you also seem just a touch fake to me. Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, I've dealt with social anxiety all my life being a yes man. That's something that I'm very recently getting over. I think I got that from my

mom, you know. I love her. She's a much better person now. What part of you is being fake with me? Do you mind if I sit with myself? Nope, not at all. I'm being fake to compensate for my fear of being seen as crazy. I really want to come off as someone articulate and someone that has their shit together, but also at the same time, I'm admitting that I have all these issues. And it's... Noah, how does it feel to have all, be someone who has all these issues? I feel like I'm not ready to accomplish my dreams. And that's scary going into your last year of university because it's like, if I may

interject a little anecdote, when I was 19, I dropped out of college to teach in Honduras for a year. I was a volunteer third grade teacher. and I loved the fact that I was a teacher, but I hated how shitty of a teacher I was. And it was actually in Honduras that I started drinking. Man, I'll never forget the day after I got drunk for the first time. I was just like looking at the trees and I was like, my brain is completely different now.

I vividly remember that. but anyway um going back to substance abuse like i thought i was a shitty teacher i was like a stupid 20 year old and then coming back in developing these substance abuse issues i feel again like i i'm not ready i'm not ready to graduate college i'm not ready to look for a job i'm not ready to to have a girlfriend i'm just not enough yeah that's how it's So it's cool. Like I think that, you know, even as you say all of that, I still see that as being part of the mask. So I think there's a lot of genuine.

I know it's weird. I know it's weird. We'll just follow me. Okay. So I asked you a question. I noticed the emotions came up. And then your mind did this really interesting thing where you're like, let me tell this anecdote. Let me kind of talk about it.

And then like, I think everything you said was genuine. But it was also like away from the emotions. Yeah. I did kind of like... Right? Right away from it. And so a lot of stuff is going to come together. Okay?

So like there's interesting because a lot of times when you talk about being a shitty person, you actually don't feel like a shitty person. And when you feel like a shitty person, you actually don't talk about being a shitty person. Just in terms of this interview. So if you look at your emotional level, you can own a lot of negativity about yourself, but you do so in sort of like a very like inspiring and positive way.

that would like to do it. But is that the fakeness that you're seeing? I think so. I think so. So like what we call this is sort of discongrant affect. So affect is what your, what your emotional appearances. And like,

you know, this is like a good example of discongruent affect is when people like laugh about, you know, getting cancer. So like that's not funny, but we all laugh about it, right?

And so, so I think that Noah, you genuinely have made a lot of progress, but I'm getting somewhere here with this. Okay. So what I'm hearing underneath everything is that like you're a crappy person, right? Like, you're afraid that you're a crappy person. You were a crappy teacher. That's, you felt so crappy. And we can see a lot of this like, it's a very good anecdote. I'm really glad you shared it because it illustrates sort of like this moment, like this turning point. Once again, your mind is always looking at those fantasies, right? I bet you have a fantasy trap about

drinking in Honduras because that was the moment where you, you felt such, like such a bad person and alcohol was there for you. Right? See, now we have Affect. Now this is genuine. It hurts. Right? Yeah.

Okay. All right. This is what Affect looks like, right? So like... Right? I should go with this feeling. Like, it's... Yeah, I feel like I'm trying to be professional right now.

Yep. Even asking the question is not going with the feeling. You're like, what am I supposed to do with it? Right? It's so like, and it's become, and this out also goes back to your, you know, anxious ambivalent attachment style where like, you learned a long time ago what other people want. And boy, are you good at giving it to them. Oh, yeah, dude.

Yeah. So I know you talk about social anxiety, but, you know, I would bet money, you're incredibly charismatic. And, and, and like, it's not a compliment. It's just, you know, like, I. I think people like you, right? You're a likable guy. And so, like, it's interesting because you feel all the social anxiety, but, like, you know, you know how to make friends, man. Like, and so this is kind of, it's kind of interesting because so I think what it comes down to is this is kind of the veneer, the mask, the protective layers that it's not your fault.

You're not doing anything wrong. It was actually like it was a survival mechanism for you. And you illustrated that for us really well. I think you're incredibly insightful. That's a compliment. But I think you've really laid out like all the what I think are important pieces that get us to sort of this conclusion, which is that, you know, you think you're a crappy person and you are asking me, how do I learn self love? Well, like the first most important thing is that you have to. So how do you learn to accept yourself? You have to be taught. And the simplest way to be taught how to sell, like how does anyone learn anything? How do you learn Spanish? Okay. Yeah. You're taught. Right? So, like, how do children learn language? How do children learn, like, how to put on a mask? Like, they're taught in some way or another. So, and now we get into the real problem, Noah, that I think, you know, this is where you really need to work, which is that if you want, if you want to be accepted by other people, if you want to learn self-acceptance, you have to start by being accepted by other people. And the real problem is I don't think you're going to truly get accepted by other people.

because there's this veneer of positive bullshit on top of everything you're saying. Right? Like, it's kind of weird, but, like, you know, you're so like, I'm going to become sober and you're like owning all these negative things, but it's like incredibly inspiring. And so when people like look at you, they don't see a waste of space. They look at someone who's amazing and walking their journey, which is what you want to present, which is what you succeed at. And now that puts you in a really tricky situation.

okay, because if you never show us the ugliest parts of you, you show us the ugliest parts of you wrapped with beautiful bowstring and flower, you know, frame positively and stuff like that. But like those really like ugly little bits that are not about growth. Just just give us the pure ugliness. And then what you need to like that vulnerability is going to like, like when you show us that, which I think from a young age you were like taught that you can't do that because. you know, the anxious avoid ambivalent attachment style. It's really hard. But you have to let us see you in all of your ugliness. And that's really dangerous because we could reject you there. And like you can't handle, like you're not ready for that. But something magical will happen, which is that when you show us that we'll be okay with it. And then you're going to be really, really confused and that's even more terrifying.

That is so true. Oh, my God. Let me tell you, when people love me and I don't expect it, it's fucking. weird. It is so weird. God, if my roommate's still watching, she is a perfect example of just like, I will say a thing. Like, maybe I, dude, in the Discord. Shout out to your Discord. Those people are amazing. I typed in the Discord, and sorry, this is a, this is a tangent. I typed in the Discord, like, is it rude to ask my, is it, is it rude to ask someone to not call me a Simp. And everyone was like, what the fuck? No, of course not. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. She's always

joking about it. And they're like, no, if you don't like being called a sim, just tell her you don't like being called a Sim. And so I tell her, I'm like, hey, can you like not say that? And she's like, okay. But in my heart does that thing where it just like jumps, you know, it like occupies two beats instead of one. It's freaking crazy. Sorry to that, but Jesus, you hit the nail on the head with that. and help me understand which what's the nail that I hit when you said if I show all my ugly bits yeah y'all might reject me but also y'all might accept me and then I'm going to be confused if y'all accept me yep and that's that's because like so the reason you're confused is because you don't

know how to accept yourself right so it's like a foreign thing it's like we're giving you like a new kind of food right so it's like feels unfamiliar to be accepted for your ugly bits like when when and what i'm hearing from the sims story it's a good story because it's sort of signals that like you were telling someone else that you're dissatisfied with them which means that they may not like you and will trigger a lot of social anxiety and all that kind of stuff so it's like it's really challenging for some people to stand up for themselves and and so when you do that you know it feels weird when the person is sort of like yeah okay fine i i won't do that you know did they apologize yeah oh of course you did

She was like, okay, I guess. But yeah, it was funny. Yeah. And how do you feel when people mistreat you, Noah? I forget which personality test I was taking, but one of the questions was when I have a bad boss, I am a bad employee, and I, like, strongly agreed with that. To answer your question, when people mistreat me,

dude, I get angry. I get angry. I get into fantasy. I don't know if this is a fantasy trap, but I do have the problem of arguing with people in my head. You know, like if I want to have a conversation with someone, I will practice that conversation in my head.

Like I've practiced this conversation for like hours in the past week since I sent in my app for this interview, you know? What does it do for you when you practice that conversation? It, will I expect the correct answer to be nothing. But what I feel it does for me is it validates perspectives that I could provide. And it gives me a little test run of, okay, how might they react? What is something really challenging that they could say that I could now think about and prepare myself for?

And it's this really weird objectification of conversation. I get you. So here's the issue there is that like all of those lines of reasoning that you're following, all those hypotheticals are for what goal? To be fake. Absolutely. Good. Sit with that for a second. Yeah. But one gear isn't turning right now because I do this so often because I want to have the right conversation. I want to converse correctly. Yep. And you're so good at it. because I asked you a question and guess who got the answer right. You're so good at it. You know where I'm going.

You know what I'm going. You're good at this job, bro. So are you. You're very slippery, Noah. Because you know how to be what I want you to be. Now, that's interesting you say that because I wanted to come into this conversation, trying to be as honest as possible. because that's something I also wanted to be as concise as possible, but I kind of failed at

that. So here's the problem. This is why this is going to go on for ad infinitum. And the reason is because I, the problem isn't what's at the end of the statement. The problem is the beginning of the statement. I wanted to be dot, dot, dot, dot. It's not I am dot, dot, dot, dot. Anytime you say, I want to be something, that's going to engage.

the fakeness. You said something on Monday that I think might pertain to this, or maybe it wasn't Monday. You said when you have a goal, when you are motivated, you may engender this fantasy, this at the end of the road kind of fantasy you have. Don't strive for that fantasy. You need to just go. You just need to go in that direction. So now I'm thinking, how can I apply that to not being fake?

You know, how do I not imagine a person I want to be with you? How do I simply be with you? Yeah. So how I want to be genuine? Yeah. Doing it again. That's wrong. So I just be genuine?

Nope. You don't just be genuine. You just be. Can't have anything on the other side. I just be. Okay, let's try that out. I don't know how. Neither do I, but...

Oh, shit, man. Okay, but if that little tendril is concluded, can we go back to how someone might determine they're addicted to something in like polysubstance abuse? That tentral's not, we can certainly talk about that, but that tendril isn't concluded. That was starting. Okay, sorry. That was me doing that thing again where I'm like, what might he want to talk about? Yeah. So you're slipping away because we're entering territory that you can't give me what I want. Okay. Do you see that? Like, it's like, boom. Like, oh, just B. Oh, I don't know how to do that.

Let's talk about something else. Shit, man. I got more practice ahead of me than I thought. Yeah. See, look, oh, look at how much you're learning and you're owning how much you have to go. look at how positive you are about all this. Oh, man, man. Oh, man. I guess positive. Yeah, right?

So now real emotions are coming out. You're feeling embarrassed. You're feeling like you're doing a bad job. Like, that's what we want, bro. Okay, okay. Right? So I got it. Yeah.

Don't keep on resetting yourself, man. It's the wrong direction. You're like, okay. No, that's the opposite of what we want. Don't like, you're like taking breath. Okay, I'm going to use my coping skills now. It's okay. Just be, be bad today.

You know, like, you don't need to be good. Oh, my God. You see, like, I can see, like, it's so uncomfortable for you to sit with that. Oh, my God. I mean, if you say so, asshole. There we go. All right. Yeah.

Where do we go from here? I'm not sure. I'm going to need a second. Did I push you too hard? No, I need a second too. Thank you for, I'll take a breather with you. I'm going to check chat, which I've been fighting the urge to do. No, I think they love you for calling me an asshole. I do too. Boy, do I feel put in my place.

No, I did not mean that. Would it be okay if you did? I would judge myself for putting out unnecessary negativity. What makes it unnecessary? I think there's other words to use than asshole. Like, okay, doc. No. But then again, the negativity.

The negativity would be the same. Yeah, I guess. Right. I hear what you mean. So you see what you did there? Like you put a, you made it more PC. Did it again. The veneer.

There it is. It's always there. So this is the thing, right? Like, so like, no, I, you know, what you do with this? So here's the answer, okay? And then we can go back to safer topics. Okay. So I think the, huh? I enjoy this. We don't need to be safe. Okay. So, so I think the first thing is just to catch yourself doing it, right? Like, you can't fix something until you recognize, like, how it works. So, like, the more you try to slip away and the more I try to pin you down, you're beginning to see it. And so now, like, hopefully, you know, you'll begin to see it in other places. And, you know, if you want to call people, like, an ask. And then you're like, oh, I could have done it.

I could have said, doc, like, be authentic with yourself. And that authenticity means, like, accepting that some of that is going to look kind of ugly and that, like, other people may get bruised if you advocate for yourself. And, like, you have to be okay with that, right? Like, you have. And this is where, you know, I really, I'm really, really glad you called me an asshole there because I think, like, you know, I think I did push a little bit too far. And then I think, like, you kind of, it's just a, it's just a tiny.

bit, right? Because you're so respectful and like, oh, I shouldn't do that, but absolutely you should. You call it unnecessary negativity. It's not. Like, you know, if there's one thing you need to understand, it's that some negativity is completely necessary and appropriate. Can I say two things? Yeah. One, you didn't push me too far. Two, my biggest problem, I've had this veneer issue all my life. I mean, God, I have memories of being in elementary school and my friends calling me fake. But any time I ever was inspired to change, I didn't change because I was afraid that people wouldn't like what I imagined to be the natural me. I think the natural me and God, who knows, but I would just be chill. I wouldn't talk much.

I'm actually quite introverted, you know, and I don't have many things to say. But I imagine myself in that kind of state, and I'm like, look at this reticent little asshole, just sitting there thinking is better than everyone else, you know? Yeah. So there, once again, we see a flavor of like self-judgment and like putting yourself down for being what you are, right? Like if you ask the question, how do I learn self-acceptance? It's the opposite of what you do to yourself right now because you have this inclination to be something and then you call yourself a reticent asshole.

So here's the main question. Why do they have to like you? They really don't. So then why do you behave in such a way where them liking you? Like why does what they like and what they want dictate? Like why did you have to come on today and be like a good guest? I well truth be told

I had a lot of imposter syndrome coming into this I was asking my roommate like yo am I qualified to be interviewed about substance abuse that was something I struggle with and even right now I still feel a little bad that we're talking about me more than we are about substances

because goddamn yeah I'm glad you're feeling bad and you're doing something that is making you feel bad. Because it's something I'm not used to and I need to practice this. Yes.

Okay. Absolutely. But still there is, there still is the issue that I, I as a huge fan of the stream, I get immense benefit from this stream. And I want to contribute to your streams. And I feel right now that someone wouldn't walk away from this being like, oh man I really have a different perspective on my substance abuse I feel like they would be like wow I really learned about that Noah guy and how he jerked off in middle school you know that's what I'm thinking yeah so so that's but but I think this is where no I think what people are so

the more genuine people are the more they benefit from the stream the more benefit happens right because like the problem noah is not that like I mean we could talk about substance use I could fucking lecture, right, like I was kind of suggesting. But I think like the far more important thing is that you're not the only one with a mask. You're not the only one who, you know, tries to be what they think everyone wants them to be, right? You're not the only one who has, like, emotions that are wrapped in a veneer of positivity, you know? And so I think that, like, I try to avoid chat, but I've glanced over a couple times. and I think that like that's what they need.

Because the issue here is that substance use is not like we sort of externalize. I'm going to plow right over your motion and keep talking, okay? Yeah, yeah. So if you want to learn about substance use, so this is the problem, is that in Western medicine, we like externalize our problems, right? So we say that there's a treatment for depression, but we don't treat people. We treat depression. It's like this external lifeless thing, right?

We say like these are the treatments for depression. They're not treatments for you. And my experience as a substance use clinician is that ultimately, like, substance use is something that interacts with who you are. The pattern of your judgments, the pattern of the veneers and the masks that you put on, the patterns of your own sense of inadequacy. It preys on all those things. Just like you said, how shitty of a teacher you are. That's when it started. And so we could talk about substance use as a separate academic thing.

but I think the main takeaway here is that like your journey to fix substance use, if there was a playbook for substance use, you could read that playbook and it could be fixed. There is a playbook for created a Valheim dedicated server. I just have to read it and I have to copy it verbatim. It's one to one. That doesn't work for substance use. And why not? It's because there's an individual in there. And that the challenges that you face in substance use are going to be like, dependent on who you are as a person. It's going to have to do with your anxious ambivalent attachment style. It's going to have to do with the fact that like fundamentally when you were growing up,

you were not taught self-acceptance because of your attachment style. That's what it comes down to. All of these conditions like borderline personality disorder and improper attachment styles, they all come down to a sense of self-worth and self-identity. You know, this blackout drunk and like you try to run away from. from who you are, and you try to show someone, you try to show everyone everyone in the world what you aren't. And so there's like, there's this piece of you that you think is ugly, which is, could be ugly, but like the issue here is that it's okay to be ugly, right? Like,

you don't need to change. Like, people can accept you for who you are. They can take it or leave it. Right. And like, like, I know it's, it seems kind of weird, but like, you're doing something that you're kind of like you were sort of being a little it's not your fault but you're kind of being like just a touch fake and i know you're trying to help people i know it's for a good reason but i want to see you knowa i don't want to see the person that you think i want to see i don't want to see the person who's going to help the most that's why i said like every conversation i have to forget about the thousands of people watching i have to be here just for you and i'm willing to take you however you are if you're a shitty human being, so be it. That doesn't bother me. I can handle it. You still deserve to be here even if you're not good enough. Like, there's no good enough. We're going to take you for who you are.

Like, I'm, that's all I want. I just want you. Like, whatever you are, if it's broken, if it's flawed, if it's beautiful. Like, it doesn't matter to me. Just give me you. Good. Oh, man. You said something that, that,

piqued my interest and now I'm forgetting what it was. It's whatever. God damn. Oh, yes. Okay, so this veneer of positivity, man. I like the man at the end of the tunnel of positivity. I want to be a teacher one day. And a lot of the best qualities of a teacher that I would have

imagine in a ideal teacher are parts of my mask. And that's one way I rationalize my mask. I justify it because the more positive I am with you, the more, I don't want to say the more fake I am about my substance abuse story. But is this not practicing my ideal version of myself? Because I want to be positive. Yeah. So there's value to the mask. But your source. struggles, there's certainly value to the mask. I think the mask is justified. I think the mask is adaptive and it's useful. I think it's fine to strive for things. But there's a difference between striving for things and being unsatisfied with like where you are. Right. Like there's a huge difference between saying, I wish I was somewhere else. Like that's the fantasy trap. Right. It's like

we're going to go back in time and we're going to rewrite history to create. To create. like this weird thing that doesn't exist. That's different from being in the present and saying, how can I take one step towards becoming the person that I eventually want to be? That's totally fine. And I know this sounds kind of weird,

but that also starts with acceptance because you can't really take a step forward to being the person that you want to be until you accept where you are. Okay. Going back. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. In determining if one is addicted, you can look and you can be like, is this the only tool I have in my toolbox. When I have a bad day, is this the only thing I go to? If so, then you're probably addicted. When I'm facing my social anxiety, when I'm facing this situation here, I mean, my only tool is my mask. So would it be appropriate to say I'm kind of, I'm overcompensating, one, for my lack of self-exemptance. But two, I'm addicted to this mask of positivity. I'm addicted to giving people this positive bullshit.

Yes. Okay. Yeah, but I think so here's the thing, Noah. So like the journey of growth is like one step at a time. So specifically, you know, I think in your case, like the first problem. is like alcohol. So like it's okay to be, it's okay to have your mask. It's okay to use marijuana. It's okay to like, you know, you got to tackle one thing at a time. But and this is where I would be a little bit careful because you kind of say, you know, oh, you're afraid that I'm going to say you have a

problem or whatnot. Like you don't have to fix everything today. I mean, you're 24. You know, arguably some people are going to think you're old. Some people, I think you're young. You've got a long way to go, you know, and it sounds like, you know, I think two years is a very long time and you can really do a lot of good work in that time. So I'd say the first thing you should do is if you're sober from nicotine and alcohol, like all of your energy should be into like not slipping back in that way. Then, you know, I would really consider like revisiting marijuana and things like that and the social anxiety. There may be other, you know, I haven't purposely asked you, you know, what you have a medical license, like what your medical condition is, but that's fine. It's irrelevant.

The key thing here, at least, I mean, it's absolutely relevant from a clinical perspective. So, like, ideally, you know, obviously it sounds like you have a therapist, you have a prescriber. Those are, that becomes very relevant for them. But the purpose of this conversation is to not necessarily do addiction treatment. It's to help, because you've got that. It's to really help you understand some of these other parts of yourself. Because what I really see, your addiction as is like, this is just one long journey towards enlightenment, right? And it starts by like stopping the blackouts. And then like it starts by like understanding who you are. Like what is that self? What is Noah like underneath all of the masks? Because in your journey for addiction,

you're going to have to grapple with the ugly Noah. And like the real lesson to be learned here is that Like, it's not that all people are beautiful. It's that it's okay to be ugly. Right? Because this is very subtle. But if we say that everyone is beautiful, we're still placing a value judgment on beauty. We're still subtly saying that some people are above other people, that we value this thing over other people. And so subtly, we're actually not being like egalitarian or like equality.

It's actually raising everyone to the pedestal. but still subtly acknowledging that the pedestal is what's important. Nothing is actually changed. And then, you know, we get into this fakeness because not everyone is equally, like, physically attractive, right? And so you can, and so this is where I think the real growth is in, like, accepting the negativity, accepting that you're never going to be perfect and that you don't need to be. You know, that being flawed is okay. Being flawed is okay. I was listening to your to your Monday stream this morning work.

You said good and bad are human constructs. That hit me right here, dude. Because like, oh my God, isn't it true? You know? Oh, man. So that is something, this application of accepting yourself for the ugliness. that is something that is difficult. And I'm very curious on how you recommend doing that.

Because I'm not even sure what the ugly parts of me are yet. Does that make sense? Yes and no, because I think you're going to like, so, so, you know, one thing you can do is go back and watch this. And what you'll see is that there are moments where, like, I'll tell you to your face that I'm willing to accept you no matter who you are. And then, like, you'll get emotional and then you'll ask some question. So like, like literally what it is is, is, you know, like there's a space where you're unable to sit with it.

And so that's okay. Like you're practicing sitting. Like you can sit with it for like five seconds. And then like the next time around, like the next time you notice that you're judging yourself, what I would say that you should do is like play the tape through to the end. So if you are an addict, what does that mean? so what? And this is where like if you really want to be present focused and escape the fantasy trap, which you've got to do, I think it all rolls together, is you have to accept that you are

ugly or that you are an addict or you are a failure or you are behind. So be it. What are you going to do about it now? Right? You don't run away from that thought. You don't try to justify it. You don't try to make excuses. You don't try to fantasize.

Where at the bottom of the. pit, we can barely see a little bit of light, that's fine. Let's just accept that we're in the pit. Because until we accept that we're in the pit, it's going to be impossible to climb out. And so I know this sounds weird, but like, oddly enough, accepting your negative qualities is not like a bad thing. Like, it's not a bad thing. I mean, I'm not saying that like, because everyone's, oh, acceptance is a good thing. What I mean is that it's actually like completely fine. Like, it's completely fine to be like completely worthless because that's just what you are. Like, you can't change that in this moment.

Right? If you're lost in the middle of the woods, like, you have to start by acknowledging that you're lost because that's where real growth happens. If I sit there like, I'm in the woods and I'm like, oh, I wish I had done this and I wish I'd brought my GPS. I wish I'd brought a backup battery. Then I wouldn't be lost. It doesn't help you at all.

To understand, and this is where if you, as you really move towards like the spiritual road, it's like, it's this idea that good and bad are constructs, right? So like, if you really understand it, like, being. at the bottom of the pit is not even a bad thing. I honestly believe that. And that's because like if I wasn't at the bottom of the pit, like I wouldn't be here today. And is this a good thing? Absolutely.

Which necessitates the bad thing. And so all there are are just things. Can I ask a question? You asked me earlier how I feel when someone wrongs me. Yeah. And in accepting where I am, I think. to the people that wronged me, you know, namely like my my rough childhood. And I wonder how I can, if you have any tips for forgiving, you know, because I think a big part of staying here,

being okay with these problems comes from, it's not my fault that I'm here. It's, you know, it's her fault. Yeah, so tips for forgiveness, fantastic question. The first, The first tip for forgiveness is that you have to blame someone in order to forgive them. Okay. I know it sounds weird. I see that this holds people back a lot, right? So, like, when you say it's, it's her fault, that's the first step forward. Okay, I know it sounds weird.

Because sometimes what people will do is when people wrong them, they will make excuses for the other person. And if they, if the person isn't really to blame, there can never be forgiveness. Does that make sense? Yeah, dude. I can't forgive you. unless I actually blame you. Yeah. So I know it sounds.

Exactly. You have to say you did something wrong. Then you can forgive. It's the first problem that people run into with forgiveness. So I'll tell you just a quick story. So I was working with a patient who lost their mom to an illness. And then their dad was grieving. And every day after work, they used to go to like a bar and drink, basically.

So they would be like at a bar. from like five to eight p.m. And they'd like kind of come home dinner time, be drunk. And then like my patient kept on saying, like I kept on asking like, you know, tell me about your dad and he said he did the best that he could. That would always be his answer. And it was like, you know, he lost his wife and like he was grieving and he did the best that he could.

Like, I don't blame him for that. But what he never said is that he did a good job. Oh my God. That's fucking sad, dude. Yep. And so like he couldn't forgive his dad. because there's like another side of the story, which is like, you know, the patient was like eight and had lost one parent and then suddenly lost two. And like he needed his dad to be there twice as much, right? Like his dad had to make up for two.

So like the patient lost two parents all at the same time. And his relationship with his dad got better once he blamed him. Right? He didn't do it to his face, but like he just did it in therapy where like we acknowledge that like, and one day I said to him, I said, you keep on saying your dad did the best that he could. You never say that he did a good job. And then once he was able to admit to himself and accept that his dad did a bad job, then he could forgive him. Right? But you got to hold people accountable. Yeah, I just feel bad, man, because I see, I see what. I see what she went through, you know. And I feel like I'm just kicking her while she's down. When I say she wasn't good at what she did, but I hear what you're saying. And I know it's important to be honest with myself and be like, yo, hey, you fucked up. All right?

Like, you fucked up. Yeah. I got to shit. So, so it's hard, Noah. So we see this a lot like in addictions, right? Because like here's the real problem. Like, did your mom ever do the work? that you're doing today?

I don't think so. I wouldn't know. So that's something that like, like so that's the difference, right? So that's what you can blame her for. I know it sounds weird. But like you can say like, I am breaking the cycle. Like, I don't know if you're going to have kids one day. But you can have a conversation with your mom.

And maybe this conversation happens once you have kids and once you're sober. And that's when you really get to blame her. Because you can say like, I was dealt the shitty hand of cards. You were dealt the shitty hand of cards. you were dealt the shitty hand of cards, and I did something about it, and I broke the cycle, and you did not. Okay.

And you lost when, yep, you lost me when you said, was she doing the same work that I'm doing now? I was like, eh, I don't know how I feel, but then you were like,

once I have kids, once I'm clean, then I can really like, then it's like, unequivocal, unequivocal. Unequivocal. Yeah, yeah.

damn that's that's powerful dog right so and this is where like the forgiveness comes in because you can have compassion for her but compassion for another human being should not get tangled up with them not doing their parama okay right so that's like really really important huh i didn't catch that so this is really important like you can have compassion for your mom You can forgive your mom, but if your mom did not do her Dharma, she did not do her Dharma. Right? So I, like, I can hold you accountable.

Like, so you're kind of slippery today, right? And so, like, you're kind of like, have this mask on. I can have compassion for you and still call you out on it. Like, I can say, like, Noah, you're being inauthentic with me. And I can still care about you and not be mad at you for that. So compassion and tarma are completely separate. And I think like what you may need to do is, you know, blame your mom for not doing her Dharma.

Because like when you're four years old and she's like yelling at you because she's drunk, if you want to forgive her for that, you've got to start out by saying that's completely fucked up, right? And this. Can I tell you how I'm feeling right now? Yeah. Go for it. I feel guilty for bringing up my mom.

Yep. Absolutely. I feel really guilty. Absolutely. So you're protecting her, right? Like you don't want. So like what's happening right now is you're feeling bad because we're starting towards the road of holding her accountable for her actions.

We're going down the road of blaming her. And you're not like you're, you're doing the same thing that my patient did. He was protecting his dad. He did the best that he could. Right? And so what we had to work through was a lot of guilt. Like when we blame people, because we have compassion for them, we have a lot of guilt.

And I mean, I'm just, we don't really know what your mom did. I mean, maybe she didn't do anything wrong. Like, I just, I don't know that. So we also have to acknowledge that. Like, she may not be, she may have done a wonderful job. I don't know. We don't know. Right.

So we have to acknowledge that truth. But what I'm saying is that like if, you know, if your parents messed up in a particular way when it comes to you and you really want to forgive them, you have to start by like everyone. agreeing that like, you know, you messed up. But you can't forgive unless you're willing to blame. Okay. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. You reminded me that the end goal is forgiveness. You know, I was so caught up on like holding her accountable, but I do want to forgive her. I really do. Okay. So this is also where the end goal doesn't have to be forgiveness. Okay. Right. So now other tips for forgiveness. Okay. First thing is,

you have to blame someone in order to forgive them. Second thing is that no one is owed forgiveness. Forgiveness is the sole right of the aggrieved party. Right? If you break my jaw, I don't have to forgive you. I never have to forgive you. It's entirely my choice. So don't feel, forgiveness should never be an obligation.

It should always be something that is given freely. And if you feel obliged to forgive, it's not true forgiveness. Okay? The second tip for forgiveness should be freely given and is never owed and never entitled. We see this a lot in very toxic family dynamics. Where like, you know, huh? That they think they're owed forgiveness? Yeah. Or like, like, so I had, you know, another situation where I had a patient who was, you know, trigger warning was sexually assaulted by a family member. And then, like, years later, like, at family gatherings and stuff, like, this, my patient was like, I'm not going to be there if this person is there. And then, like, family members are like, it was in the past.

It was years ago. Like, you should forgive them. You know, like, we can move past it. They regret what they did. They stopped doing it. And so, like, got a lot of pressure from the family because it's like people are wondering where you are. And we can't say it's because so and so, you know, like, that's. That's how families work, right?

Like, it's like, you don't show up with a family gathering and be like, yeah, I'm not going to come because, oh, hey, how are you, Uncle Bob? I hate you for raping me and I've been in therapy for 10 years. Yeah. You just don't do that. That's not how families work. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy.

But, like, and so, like, a lot of times people get pressured into forgiveness. People are like, you know, like, we also see this in romantic relationships where, like, people like, you know, who you feel like they deserve forgiveness. No one deserves forgiveness. No one is entitled to forgiveness. Second tip. I feel like there was a third tip, but I'm blanking on it now. Let me think for a second. How do you have to blame the person. No one's entitled. Yeah. I think so. I think in your case, no, I think it's really about like figuring out, you know, what you want to forgive them for. It's a okay to love them. It's good to forgive. I think it's healthy to forgive. I think hanging on to

hatred and stuff like that is not good for you. But at the same time, like, you shouldn't feel like you're a bad person if you don't forgive. You should forgive because you love your mom, not because she deserves it or that you need to protect her. Like, yeah. It's also, yeah. Yeah. It's also like, sorry, I was just reciting in my head. No, no. So I think it's also. It's also. It's also. also much more powerful, like the forgiveness on both parties means so much more when these two boxes are met. Like, it's transformative. And this is nothing I would do with my mom, right? Like, would it be weird?

Would it be too conflict-based to, like, talk to my mom and being like, hey, you did some shit? shitty shit, but I hope you know I'm cool with it now, you know? So, so I think that this is where like, we got to do a better job of this at Healthy Gamer, but like we can prep you through how to have a conversation. So we had a webinar like back in March of 2020 about like how to talk to people. And so we need to teach people like, like give you all a playbook for how to have that conversation. And I think the first question that I would start with, I mean, just this is not,

don't listen to me here, but based on what you've said, because I haven't asked all the appropriate questions. But out of everything that I've heard today, the question that leaps to my mind the most is having a conversation with your mom about her attempts to control her alcohol. I should clarify about my mom. I don't think it was really alcoholism.

It was really just whatever other mental illness she was dealing with at the time that made her, dare I say, abusive. Sure. So I think it's like, it's like, it's like trying to understand what your, your mom's perspective is. Because through that understanding, you may actually find that like,

like you definitively don't think it was her fault. And if that's, if that's okay, then there's no need for forgiveness, right? Like, but like, like, like I think it starts by sort of having like a,

a good understanding of what her experience of raising you was like. Okay. Right. So like, well, here's what's going in my mind because now I'm not confused, but now I have a really difficult question in my head. I firmly believe that if I were put in the exact same position as my mom with all the same backstory and all the same responsibilities, I feel like I would have acted similarly. You know, I don't feel like it was her fault, but I still believe she did not fulfill her time. So that's, you know, so this is where I think like it starts with conversations. So I wouldn't start by blaming her unless you're prepared to do that.

Okay. So I think like when it comes to having conversations like showing up and like opening salvo of like, fuck you. You know. And so I think that that it sort of starts by like just listening to her. And then at some point, you know, when you're ready, you can kind of say to her that mom like I really feel like a lot of the, I feel like a lot of the, you know,

a lot of like what happened when I was growing up, like was really hurtful and like has caused me a lot of problems. And there were particular times that were really painful for me. Is it okay if I tell you about them? And then like you're going to get a lot of defensiveness. So that's why there's like a way to like, you're going to ask for permission. She may not be ready to hear it.

She may be ready to hear it. And then you kind of share one story and then like you give her a chance to apologize. Right. Like she may say like I like you'd be surprised at where these conversations go when they're framed in the right way. Like this is also like I'm not kidding you. No. Like these conversations can be truly amazing and transformative. And like they can lead to conversations like parents being like for years and years and years like I let you down and I've never been able to like say that.

They're never, never able to admit it. because they have their own, like, and to hear, like, your parent, like, authentically say, I, you deserve so much better than what I was able to give you, and I'm incredibly sorry for that, can, like, completely transform a relationship between a child and a parent. And it's not even about you blaming them because you don't even have to blame them, because they're going to take it all for themselves, and she'll be able to admit that to you. I mean, it goes, I mean, it's like I've seen these. I'm tearing up because I've seen just incredible.

incredibly powerful. Like, I mean, it's just like completely O-P. Like, it just wipes away years and years of like stuff that has not been said. Yeah, man. I'm thinking I got to go visit my mom tonight. That last part. That last part really got me. Thank you for answering that question.

Oh, shit, dude. God damn. I'm fighting the urge to just say something. Because my brain is going like, dead air. dead here. You're right, right. So that's sitting with things, right? So good. Good. And we'll let it slide that you said something about finding the urge to say something. But that's actually the right level of meta. So you noticed it, right? Like you noticed it. Like I think what's happened several times. So that's actually like leveling up, Noah. Because several times during this conversation, you would just slip. And now you caught, like, it's okay to slip. But at least you're aware you're slipping now. Right? Good. God, it's weird because it's weird to think that, you know, to indulge a fantasy trap real quick,

if I were to just sit there after you said that, that were just like say nothing and be the kind of person that would think to himself, yeah, I'm sitting here doing nothing and like I'm just going to wait for Dr. Kay to say whatever comes to mind or like anything that comes to my mind. Okay. That's weird to me. I'm excited for it.

Now we get to meditation. Hey, let's do it. So we're just going to sit here and look at each other. Three, two, one, go. Oh my God, this is so hard. Is it? I'm loving this. This is what the introvert in me has dreamed of my entire life.

God, I need a girlfriend that'll do that with me. Oh, that was so uncomfortable for me. That's crazy. I can't believe I was totally okay with that. So I think we did something right. Yeah. I'm sorry I didn't ask for your consent first, but thank you for that. No, no, no. I'm the one that dumped you into it. You're going to try again? You want to try again?

We don't have to try again. Now I feel like there's a pressure to do it well. I think that was perfect. Okay. Well, we could also just acknowledge the pressure. And then sit with that and not give into it. But if it was perfect, then that's, that's meditation for the day. That's fine. Well, I can, oh, can I ask you about a particular meditation? Yeah.

What is something that can knock me out of wanting to relapse? I guess there's no going to definitely knock you out of it. But I have been doing mindfulness meditation. like 20 minutes and seeing how I feel. But sometimes I'll, yeah. I think it depends on what is causing you to move towards the drink. So like I think that the really hard thing is, the thing that I'm the most worried about for you, Noah,

is this thought that I'm a few moments away from relief. So oddly enough, like if you have, like, do you think that anxiety pushes you to drink? Well, I want to clarify a bit because I don't really feel that way anymore because I'm so good with not drinking anymore at least two weeks into it. Good for you, man.

Yeah, thank you. What it really is is like nicotine or like inappropriate cannabis use where it's like I'm bored and yes, to answer your question, anxiousness. It's like I have nothing to do, but my mind will not shut up. So I'll take a bonnet because then I can think about how high I am instead of all the work that I'm not doing at midnight, you know? So if you want, have you seen like us do like the closing of the gates technique? Okay.

So I'm going to teach you something called B's Breath or Bramari-Branayam and like the closing of the nine gates. and the reason for this is simply that this is a technique that like explodes the thoughts in your mind. Like it'll just destroy them. It's quite powerful. And the reason I think about it for you is because post techniques, since you enjoy just sitting quietly with yourself so much, which I know is something that you've been running away from this entire interview. But I think it's genuinely like I think you'll discover that sitting with yourself feels very. really, really nice. So I'll teach you this technique. It's one that we do a fair amount. Let me just think. There's another technique that I was thinking about that's a little bit more

anti-anxiety. But yeah, let's go with closing of the nine gates, okay? Okay. So what I'm going to do is put my pinkies at the corners of my mouth. I'm going to put my middle finger in the groove right outside, like right in my nostrils, like outside my nostrils. And I'm going to put two fingers over here in my, it's sort of like the tear ducts and edges of my eyes. And then for the last bit, I'm going to put my thumbs in here. Inside, okay? So you have the pin of your ear and your thumb should be behind the pinna. The pinna is the little flat.

Okay. So I'll show you what that. kind of looks like. So I can't do it with headphones on, but this is what it looks like, okay? And then what we're going to do is we're going to sit up straight and we're going to hum like a bee. So just watch me first. Because if you have your thumbs in your ears, you can't hear me. So I'm going to show you once, okay? Okay. So we're going to buzz like a bee. Just, hmm. Discord cut you off. Were you humming that entire time? Yep. So Discord is going to cut me off. Okay.

Discord is going to cut you off too. So it's just because of the way that the voice detection works. So it's going to be a constant. Then when you run out of breath, you stop. So what we're going to do is we're going to do five rounds. And then not. So what I want people to take away from this afterward is just notice what it does to the thoughts in your mind. Okay?

Like as you hum and then, but don't pay too much attention because then it'll shatter the humming. But, you know, just hum five times, do five breaths, and then sit with yourself afterwards. So you can let your hands come down, let your eyes remain closed. We'll do five breaths and maybe 60 to 90 seconds of like silent meditation. Okay. As much as this is a tragedy, you can come on back. Interesting. So what is, what effect do you feel on your thoughts when you do that?

I find them to be pushed aside by the humming. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. It gets really loud after that humming. But then I thought the impression was your, it's not like mindfulness where you're like returning to that river of breathing. It's like you want to sit with those thoughts, correct? I don't quite follow. What was your experience of the practice? I was humming. The humming is something I got to get used to, but it was an isolating experience. You know, I felt very alone. inside my head. Yep. And then when I started breathing, I started thinking about my mom,

the air conditioning I can hear. And I just observed things. When you said earlier that it's supposed to explode my thoughts, I thought the goal was to bring them out. No, yeah. So, yeah. So, Noah, you've really got to stop trying to do things right. and instead do things the way they happen.

Okay. So you, so like, don't ask me what my experience is. My experience is relevant. What matters is what happened in your case and whether it was helpful to you in some way. What's supposed to happen, if it's not helpful to you, you got to be careful because your mind is going to tell you, oh, I'm not doing it right. But that thought stems from a sense of inadequacy. right in a weird way. So like the question is what happens for you?

So if you've got to get used to it, if it's uncomfortable and doesn't work for you, that's totally fine. Don't do it. But I would say you can practice a little bit. But the goal is that like if you're having, you know, particular anxieties and you do the humming practice,

the anxieties will be amplified because you're going to be in a public situation and people are going to be wondering what is this guy doing. But ideally like what will happen is the sound will kind of push all the thoughts away. and then like you'll just be like lost in that sound and then like afterward you'll kind of like ideally be in in sort of like this calm sort of state yeah I really like that like if next time I have a craving I know that's going to help a lot you know just jostling a bit yeah exactly so that's that's so jostling is actually going to be really that's a beautiful word to describe a great way

to get out of a craving so this is where like we talk about something that's something called urge surfing, which is to remember that like urges don't last forever. Right? So like just like if you're surfing, like there's a wave and as long as you ride on top of it, it's going to crash. And you just have to ride. You have to jostle your way like out of that rabbit hole that you go down. Because like when you have a craving, it's like a chain of thoughts, right?

It's like, I want this. It's just a right away. I can do it. Oh, I shouldn't do it. I really shouldn't do it. Oh, I can handle it. It's not that big of a deal. It's just this one time.

There's this whole, like, thing and you just got to kind of crack that whole jostling it up is the most important thing. So. Okay. All right. Yeah. Hey, thank you. Thank you. The end of the conversation. Yeah.

I think, I mean, that's where I was, how does that feel to you? I'm grateful, man. I'm so grateful to you. Are you disappointed too? I was afraid I would be, but you know what? This is what happened. and I'm going to walk away different because of this. You know, so I'm not going to, I'm not going to be upset that you didn't take away every impulse I have to do drugs, you know?

I do think you're a miracle worker, but I was not expecting that. And I'm incredibly happy with this conversation we've had. Okay. And so just to hammer in the final point of the conversation, if you were a little bit upset that I didn't take away all of your impulses, if this conversation did not live up to your family, fantasy, that's okay too. Yes. Yes. Okay. Good luck to you, Noah. God, thank you so much, man. I appreciate that. And I'm going to send you that quick DM, okay? Yeah, I appreciate you. Thank you very much for coming on. Thank you for being authentic and strong work, man. I think you helped a lot of people today. My pleasure. Shout out to me, but I love all y'all.