HealthyGamerGG - Breaking the Cycle of Overthinking

Episode Date: March 11, 2021

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How's it going? Good, man. How are you? I can't hear you for a sec. Oh, I'm good. I'm good. I appreciate you having me on. Thank you very much for that. Dude, I appreciate you coming on. Everyone is always so grateful that we're having them on and I don't think you guys realized like we wouldn't be anywhere without you. I think it's more so I'm sure there's a lot of people that could, you know, be sitting here instead of me right now. You know what I mean? So still got to be grateful.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. It's very positive of you. And so is your name C-Doo? Yeah, it's just like an abbreviation of my real name, which is Charles Dolan, you know. Okay. But yeah, you can call me Chuck, Charles, C-Doo. It's all good. Okay. Chuck?

Chuck, yep, that works. Monosyllable. And so Chuck, is there something in particular that, you know, you were thinking we could talk about today or maybe something that we could help you with? I mean, I guess I could kind of, you know, break down what I'm going through. I don't, like, I don't really like talk about this. So I'm not really sure like what I should be talking about or what you're interested in or what you can even do to help me. But, you know, basically I've been, I've been dealing with like anxiety for a long time.

And I would say it's gotten progressively worse. It started to like hit me really bad when my wife was pregnant with her first kid. I don't know if it was related. I feel like subconsciously, I guess it would have to be related if that's like when it started getting bad. But basically, I'm like, it's kind of weird. Like I'm actually like afraid to have anxiety. Like I think my biggest fear is like having a panic attack because like one time I had like a panic attack that lasted like what I would say was like an hour or something. And I felt like I wasn't in control of my body.

Like I felt like I felt like reality became like fake. You know what I mean? It's kind of hard to explain. So I feel like that's like my biggest fear. And like I feel like I'm constantly like overthinking and I just like I just have like constant like chatter in my head like, okay, am I going to have a panic attack? Okay, I'm feeling nervous. Like the slightest thing like, wow, I feel like a tingle like in my body like, oh, my,

my heart is like beating faster. Like, you know, anything just kind of starts like those thoughts that just don't ever stop if that makes sense. It's just, it's most of the time, I would say it's like an all day thing. But, you know, I kind of had like this thing on my stream a few days ago, which, you know, kind of started, you know, me reaching out and trying to make like small improvements. And I would say for the most part, it's been better, like, you know, significantly better. And generally it is better. I think I just had a string of like really bad days.

But, you know, even then, like when I'm feeling normal, like my brain is just so weird. I'll be like, wow, I haven't thought about anxiety a while. Oh, now I'm going to start thinking about it. You know, it's like, like I noticed myself feeling good. And then I start to question, oh, I'm feeling good. Your anxiety is like, no, uh, you're not allowed to do that. It doesn't stop. It doesn't stop. Yeah.

Wow, dude, it sounds heavy, bro. I mean, you know, I don't want to, I guess, oversell it. Like, I feel like, you know, I'm probably doing better than some other people that are dealing with this. because I do, I do do my daily things and, you know, I travel, I go out and stuff like that. But it's definitely sometimes I feel like it's harder to enjoy like living in the moment, you know, and it kind of makes me sad sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely, man. How long have you been kind of carrying this around? Like, how long has this anxiety been with you? I mean, like I said, I've had it at a young age. I would probably, well, I don't know how young is young, but like maybe like my mid-teenage years, like 16 or something is like when I, you know, experienced my first panic attack. And then it's probably been pretty rough for like three-ish years now.

Like, you know, my son's almost three. And it was like while we were pregnant with him. So I would say that's like when it started to get not nearly as manageable. Like I actually had to get like medicated for it because I was waking up every single day shaking. Like my whole day would be me like literally shaking and I couldn't stop it. And it was I could. couldn't eat and I was, you know, I was struggling really bad and I tried, you know, really hard to not do that, but like the medication helped me so much that I was like, this, this just had to be,

you know, the answer because I couldn't live the way I was living. Absolutely, man. So I'm glad that you got mental health treatment because it certainly sounds to me like this is like a clinical case of anxiety. And I'm also kind of. noticing, so do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions just about what kind of treatment you've tried in a little bit of your treatment history? Sure. Yeah, go ahead. Feel free to ask me anything. Yeah, so let me take a step back and explain why I'm asking. So usually we steer clear of

clinical topics on stream because this really isn't supposed to be medical advice. The reason I want to ask you a little bit about your treatment history is because in my experience as a psychiatrist, There are some things that have to do with clinical anxiety. And there are actually non-clinical solutions that we can learn around anxiety as well. And I basically want to parse out how much of the clinical stuff has been done so that I know how to approach the non-clinical stuff, if that makes sense. So I've got a couple of like basic questions for you. Okay. You don't have to answer anything because this is your personal medical history.

It's going to be like super high-level stuff. So it sounds like you're taking medication. now and that the medication helps? Yeah. Okay. And it sounds like you started medication around the time that your wife was pregnant? Yeah. Okay.

Have you tried psychotherapy or something besides medication? No. Okay. So that's basically all the questions I need to ask. Because that'll sort of help me understand like what to include and what not to include and kind of how we go from here. Sure. Any particular reason you haven't tried psychotherapy?

Honestly, I would feel, I would say like until as of like recently, I kind of feel like I just, my thought process was like if I just kind of deal with this and like try and forget about it, it will go away. Like I didn't really like talking about it. Like this conversation actually is like kind of like making me nervous a little bit, but I'm happy to be here. And it's like I also didn't really like want to go to a. like, you know, I guess a psychologist. Is that because like I don't know, I just, I guess it just made me a little bit nervous, you know, like it. Sure. So let's start.

Let's start. Because he said that you have trouble being present focused, right? So let's start in the present. So I noticed that when we started the conversation you were doing well. And then, and then as, especially when I asked you a little bit about your treatment history, you've started crossing your arms. I'm noticing you're feeling more nervous. So tell me how you feel right now. I mean, I guess I feel a little bit nervous.

You know, I'm okay. You know, I'll definitely make it through the conversation. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to just point out that language because it's so interesting, right? It's like you're, you play wow, right? Yes. So what I'm hearing is like you've got a couple of dots on you and your HP is, it's fucking ticking down. But you're like, you know, I'll make it like I'm still going to wipe like, you know, we're still going to win the raid.

Like we're running out of mana. Like this boat is sinking, but we're going to make it. shore. That's what I'm hearing from you. Which, which is like, it's a god-awful way to go through life. For sure. Yeah, I don't disagree. You know, so, so I think that our goal here is not to make it through to some, you know, it's like, let's figure out how we can, you know, cleanse those dots, right? Because what I want to help you with is like to not have to live this way. It's not about overcoming your anxiety to survive. Like, that's just not any way to live life. Right. And I can see that you've learned how to do that really well. Actually, really awesome and noble. Like, I'm sure that

your kid is grateful, your family is grateful, that you've learned how to manage that anxiety. But it's also like, I can see it kind of clawing away at you. And you're sort of like keeping it at bay while you're trying to live your life. And you're sort of protecting your loved ones from the impact of that anxiety. Does that make? make sense to you or resonate at all? Yeah, it does. How do you feel right now? I feel, you know, the same.

Okay. Did that do anything to your nervousness as you were listening to that? Not necessarily. I think it's kind of like, I think it like kind of plateaus. You know what I mean? Okay. So the most part. Tell me what, what do you mean by nervousness?

Um. What do you experience right now? I guess like I just kind of like if I feel like weird in my own skin does that make sense like I guess and then um maybe that's kind of it I don't know like I just I guess I like try and just do things like I like fiddle my hands and you know move move around a little bit um I don't know and this may sound so I'm going to you know see your weird statement and raise you in a weirder statement and a weird statement and a weirder statement. Do you think that sometimes when you fiddle and stuff, you're trying to find your way back into your own skin? I'm not sure. I feel like it's a way for me to just like do something and I guess like just keep my hands moving or, you know, just like a nervous tick or something like tapping your leg or, you know, like playing with something in your hands. Just to move around, I guess. Okay. Are you having particular thoughts right now? No. I feel like for the most part, unless like my mind is like running really crazy, when I'm like distracted, I'm like generally okay.

And like I said, you know, since like those a few days ago, I started like trying to eat better and trying to exercise a little bit. I'm not doing anything crazy. And, you know, some people recommended like 15 minutes of, you know, deep breast before and after you wake up. And I've been doing that. And I kind of felt like there was like immediate results. I felt like my my my uh my thought process slowed down quite a bit not like in a I can't like function way but like the racing thoughts like definitely almost went away immediately okay um like like I had a string of excuse me uh really bad days and uh where I just kind of felt like my whole day I just couldn't like enjoy anything except the fact that like you're not going have a panic attack you're not going to be okay like you know that just you know

So that's what the racing thoughts are. They're kind of... Sometimes, you know, that's definitely, I would say, like, the start of it. You know, sometimes it could get worse than that. You know, I've always been like... Go ahead. Yeah, what percentage of your anxiety is about being anxious? A lot.

I would say, like, I told you, like my first panic attack was like, like, super, like, scary to me, like, to a... traumatizing matter. Like I was, you know, I thought I was going to die and I was afraid that, um, you know, I was afraid that,

uh, I would like potentially like I could lose my mind and never like be brought back to sanity and, um, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be able to control myself and, you know,

there would be times where I'm driving like, what if I have a panic attack right now? Do I just die? Like, you know, like, um, going on flights and stuff.

Like, what if I have a panic attack on the plane? you know, like, what the hell is going to happen? Like, I can't get off. Like, you know. Chuck, have you ever heard of the term agoraphobia? I recently started reading Panic to Power. And I think it's been used in there a few times.

Do you have a, have they explained in the book, or do you remember in the book how they describe agoraphobia? So I want to explain this just to educate people, okay? So, you know, this is something that you should consider talking to your, your provider about, but just to explain to you kind of how this works. So, first of all, bro, what you're describing is like completely normal in the sense that some people, for whatever reason, and we can get to that in a second, are kind of like when they create their character, they get the panic or anxiety trait.

And so sometimes what happens is people who have panic attacks will sometimes become agoraphobic. And what agoraphobic means is fear of going outside. So they stay home and sometimes in really severe cases, they'll be, you know, stuck in their home for years at a time. Sounds like you've already, you know, I don't think that's going to happen to you. So because if it was going to happen, it would have already happened. So I think you kind of dodge that bullet. But I think the reason that I bring up agoraphobia right now is because I think it illustrates a lot of what you're going through. So the reason that people become agoraphobic is out of a fear of having a panic attack and being in an uncontrolled environment when they have a panic attack.

So it's not like they literally like are afraid of the sun or the sky or other people. Literally if you talk to people who are agoraphobic and these are people who like, you know, it's very hard for them to leave the house. What they tell you is what if I have a panic attack in those kinds of places? And they're so afraid of losing control in the outside, like outside of their home that they end up, that fear becomes so powerful that they never leave. And there's also sort of like this agoraphobia light. which is like when people are able to actually leave the home. But whenever they leave the home, their mind is constantly scanning for like methods of escape. Like what if I have a panic attack while I'm on a plane?

Like what would I do? What if I have a panic attack if I go to a party? Like how am I going to escape from that situation if I start to lose control? Does that, do you have those kinds of thoughts? I would say it's not like as bad as you're describing it. Like the plane one is definitely. a fear of mine for sure. Like, I'm not afraid to fly.

I'm not afraid like the plane is going to crash. Like, you know, like it's literally just like I'm afraid I'm going to get uncomfortable on the plane. And, you know, I've definitely been in that situation before where I started to feel panic attack coming on. And I've gotten this like, you know, even recently. And although it scares a living crap out of me, I just tell myself, you know, shut up and take deep breath and no one will even notice.

Like you're going to be 100% fine. And that's what happens. Like if I feel like one coming on, like I don't know, explaining it like hits me. And I'm like in shock for a second. I'm just like and then I feel like a little bit tingly. You know what I mean? Like I feel like a little bit tingly and then I'm,

I'm okay. You know, like that's just, that's just it. And it's weird because I feel like, um, you know, I said about driving and stuff. Like sometimes I'll think about what happens and I'm just like,

Doesn't matter. You got to live your life. You know, like if it happens, you know, worst, worst case scenario, pull over. Like, you'll be 100% fine. And it's never happened while driving before. And so I'm noticing that there's like a dialogue in your head. Oh, 100%. I talk to myself all the time. Hope that doesn't make me crazy. Nope. It makes sane. So, so Chuck, I'm going to lay out a couple of options. Okay. Actually, let me make like one or two observations. So, I think today could be really good in terms of we can discuss and I can explain. How are you feeling, by the way? I'm all right.

You know, I would say just all right. Like, I mean, I could say I'm good, but obviously, like, I am a little nervous. I was a little nervous about coming on here in general. Like I said, like, this isn't something I've done ever. Like, I don't talk about this really. And I just kind of broke down, you know, a few days ago. And, you know, I'll talk to my wife. and stuff like she obviously knows but this is obviously something i'd ever done publicly before um

sounds like you haven't really done it much privately either no yeah i don't i don't what keeps you what keeps you from talking about it i would honestly say like i felt like my thought process was if i ignored it it'll go away and the more i talk about it the more real it is you know like sure like i don't i i literally don't like talking about it like people would come in my chat and and say like, what are you going on Dr. K for? And I like don't even want to answer that question, even though like I'm the one who did it publicly. And how does it feel when they ask you that question? I don't, I don't even like saying the word anxiety or reading it or anything like it, you know,

because I feel like once I see it, then I like it doesn't stop in my brain. You know what I mean? Like I could be completely fine and then I see it. And then I'm like, oh, shoot, here we go. You know, like I just got to think about it until it goes away. Yeah. So I know this sounds kind of like this is going to be a weird question. What do you think about thinking that if you ignore it, it'll go away? That's kind of like what I, I guess, like what my philosophy was originally, right?

Yeah. Why do you think you had that philosophy? I guess because in my younger years, for the most part, it worked. Does that make sense? Excellent. Good. Good. So I'm really happy to hear you say that, Chuck, because a lot of people who are listening may think that that's a bad philosophy to have. Like, if you ignore problems, they don't go away. But this is the first thing I want you to understand.

If your mind is doing something, there's a damn good reason for it. And so, oddly enough, I do think that ignoring it will make it go away is actually an oddly effective strategy that sort of worked for you. Because let's remember, if we really tunnel down to it, I know it sounds really weird, But if we really tunnel down into it, what happens if you open the door to your anxiety? It kind of like pours out. Absolutely, right? So like ignoring it is your way of keeping the door closed.

Because one thing that we can listen to you, and if you really like, if you just kind of think about it for a second, the anxiety gets out of your control so easily. So it's like a bucking bronco that gets like let loose in your house. And then it's just like jumping all over this place, smashing furniture. And so really the only thing that you've learned, or not the only, the most effective thing that you have learned so far is just to keep it outside of the house. And this is where I don't think that ignoring it is really fair. What I'd really say is like not letting it into your mind. Because what I'm hearing from you is that once it gets into your mind, there's racing thoughts, there's thought loops. You know, one thought leads to another leads to another leads to another.

And then you like start having this dialogue with yourself. And then that kind of like fuels your anxiety even further. and sometimes you win, but I'd also venture that sometimes when you argue with yourself, the anxiety is kind of like a punching bag, where the harder you hit it, the harder it swings back. And so ignoring it is actually, it's not really like ignoring it per se. When this is where ignoring really means not letting it into your mind, because if we think about what is the word ignore mean, it means the active process of preventing thoughts about something in your mind. Right? So I think ignoring it is a fantastic tool in your arsenal of dealing with anxiety.

Second thing I want to point out, so then there's this dialogue component where sometimes you fight with your anxiety and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But the problem with fighting with your anxiety is that oftentimes it fuels the tension in your mind. Right. And if we think about it, like the low anxiety states are actually states of low energy in the mind. Would you agree with that statement or does that statement make sense with you for you? Not exactly in terms of making sense. Okay. So like when you're calm, your mind is not doing a whole lot.

And when you're anxious, your mind is doing a ton. And I would venture that when you fight against your anxiety, the total amount of activity in the mind is increasing. And I would also venture that when the total amount of activity in the mind increases, you get closer to anxiety. And if you really think about it, when you succeed in fighting your anxiety, and you stop and you take deep breaths, what happens to the energy in your mind?

I guess it would go down. Absolutely. Right? So the more energy in your mind, it's almost like there's like this portal that spawning anxious thoughts. And the more energy you pump into the mind, the more anxious thoughts it spawns. And sometimes you actually like attack the portal and you try to like, you know, overcome it with willpower. That can actually make your anxiety worse. And what actually works is stopping to fight. It's just like zoning out. Right? Like you're just like, I can definitely

agree with that. And so if we think about it zoning out is also like ignoring. Like ignoring is not letting not zoning in in the first place. There's no zoning in. There's no agro. And sometimes now what you've learned is like, okay, like I don't want to zone in. And now that like we're agroed, like let's just zone out. Because sometimes you'll sit there and you'll like, you know, you get agro. You start tanking. You start spamming all your buttons and all your cool downs. And sometimes you win and sometimes you wipe. But either way, like even while you're fighting that battle, life continues going on. You know, time to feed your kid and put your kid to bed and here you are fucking spamming your cool downs trying to fight that anxiety like in your head.

You know, no one else is aware, but you're like getting wiped in a raid. You know? And so there's this really interesting like principle of like energy and anxiety where actually what we want to do is unplug our mind. And so this is where breathing exercises can help. That's just kind of a point that I wanted to make. I'm going to toss out a couple of different things. And then you tell me what you want to talk about.

Okay. Next thing that I want to point out is that, you know, your problem is not the anxiety. it is also your response to the anxiety. So the anxiety is not something that you control, but then you do something, like half of your panic is around the fear of future anxiety. It's not even like the core anxiety. So our mind does this thing where sometimes,

you know, we have adaptations to circumstances. And then sometimes the adaptations actually end up hurting us more. Like just to give you an example, if I'm depressed and I start drinking because it makes the feelings of depression go away, then that sort of works, but like now I've created a whole new problem. So in your case, I think there are two ways you can move forward. One is you can move forward with the root of your anxiety.

And the second is you can move forward with the response to your anxiety. Does that make sense? Are you going to like kind of go in detail in like, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So like there's the original panic attack, which you sort of can't control. And then there is your fear. There's almost like the PTSD from the panic attack. And what I'm saying is that if we really look at it, those are like two separate issues. And so what I mean is that like you can tackle both of those and your anxiety can get better by preventing the original panic attack or working through that original panic attack. But also by like relearning how to. deal with that original panic attack. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. And then kind of the last thing, or two more things that we can kind of touch on. And I know it's kind of scattered when I'm kind of pointing out. I'm going to use a shotgun approach and then you let me know like what you're interested in. Okay. So is that we can get to the origins. So I can ask you like, you know,

what was going on in your teenage years? What was your upbringing like? What was your first panic attack like? what happened when your wife got pregnant. And we can kind of, you kind of say subconsciously there has to be a connection. You're right, by the way. And so we can kind of dig into that and maybe help you see that connection if you want to. A lot of people do that kind of stuff. Like, those are the kinds of conversations that a lot of people benefit from on stream, but we don't have to do that. And then the last thing that we can talk about is like a little bit about the physiology of anxiety.

And so almost like a neuroscience perspective, like you're using these phrases like, I don't feel like I'm in my own skin. And like what is actually happening in your body? What is happening in your brain to create these kinds of sensations of like depersonalization where you feel like you're not in reality anymore? And then that begs the question, what is reality and what is you? So there's sort of like this physiologic neuroscience, like weirdly spiritual, you know, like let's talk about the nature of the universe and existence men. So there's like kind of that tack too.

And I think these are all like useful things to talk about. It's kind of like what you were interested in. Hmm. Let's see here. I kind of, I kind of feel like we should go with the first one. And it's going to sound really weird. But I feel like that is the one that is going to make me like the most anxious to talk about because I like have only talked about it like once or twice. Like, you know, like number one, if you wanted to know more about like my childhood, I'm more than happy to tell you.

you, but like the manner and like how I had a panic attack and stuff, like, it kind of still scares me to this day. So maybe like getting that out and like having you touch up on it would maybe make me feel better. I don't know. Okay, good. So, so beautiful. So now, Chuck, we're going to be scientists, okay?

We're going to party up. We're going to, we're going to be scientists. So I want you to pay attention. Notice your fear and wanting to talk about it. Mm-hmm. notice that you're pushing yourself in spite of your fear. And what I want you to keep track of, because you're the only one that can do this, is notice what happens to your various thoughts and emotions as we talk about it.

So do things get better? Do they get worse? Both are possibilities. Do they feel the same? Do some things get better and some things feel relieving? Like all kinds of stuff, okay? So let's just see if it does help. Because maybe if it does help, maybe you should, you know, we can.

talk a little bit about seeing a therapist more long term. Okay? Sure. So tell me about your childhood, bro. Where should I start? I don't know. What was growing up like? It's all right, I guess.

My parents eventually ended up getting divorced. So I would say that it was not a very good marriage. It was actually like pretty openly bad. Like, I felt like they would actually fight quite a bit. it was my dad was like a little like OCD crazy what does that mean like if if something wasn't like completely straight or not done his way like it was a problem like it was like it was like maybe like military status like you know you walk in the house shoes off at the door if you leave your bedroom it has to be perfect we weren't allowed to sit on our beds unless it was bedtime. So we would literally watch TV in our

rooms on the floor. If we were to leave our house, we would have to have bedroom checks to make sure it was straight enough in order for us to be able to leave. There would be times where we would eat dinner. And if I wasn't eating fast enough, like if I didn't like finish my food by a certain time, I would have to go to bed. Like my dad would like put a timer on. Before I say all this, I should probably say I actually have a good relationship with my dad now. Like I know that, you know, when he was younger, he was kind of like, I don't want to say crazy, but, you know, he was a little, his methods probably weren't the best for parenting. Sure, sure, sure.

But, you know, we're definitely, we're definitely past that. Okay. But I would say, you know, my sister and I probably favored my mom. Like, my dad would go away for work and we would always be, like, pretty happy when he was gone. We would stay up late and, you know, yeah. Do you remember what it felt like, like when you were eating your food? I didn't like it. I was like, I actually had this thing for a long time where I wouldn't eat the last

bite of my food. Like it was like, I don't know why because I feel like I think one time I like over ate and threw up, but like I don't know. There was for a long time I wouldn't eat the last bite of my food because I felt like maybe I would throw up or maybe I, like, since I wasn't being forced to, I didn't have to. I don't know. But I just, I do remember that was like a part of like a mindset for a while.

Okay. So can I ask you a couple more questions? Yeah, for sure. I'm going to need a second to try to find the right question. Is that okay? What was it like growing up with a dad like that? I mean, for me, it was normal, I guess. I didn't I didn't really think much of it at the time.

I definitely spent like a lot of time at friends houses. Like I would almost say like a few of my friends' parents like would have like literally adopted me or considered me their kid at the time. Like I would be there all the time. I had like a bunch of different friends where I would be there nonstop, stay over nonstop. Almost every single weekend I probably never stayed home. Why?

Not even because like I didn't want to be home, but because I enjoyed like, you know, I would say my other friend's house is like way more, like more freedom. Yeah, what did you enjoy about being there? I mean, probably spending time with my friends, more freedom in general. You know, it just felt like we got to do a lot more. Like my house was like always really strict when my dad was home. And I wouldn't say it was very fun. Yeah.

And I actually remember one time specifically, this is probably like a little off topic and completely random. But my mom came home with like a video game for computers called Mech Wars. and my dad made her go back to the store and take it back and specifically said computers are not meant for video games. And I still give them hell for that comment to this day because I'm like, that's how I make my living now. But, you know, so sometimes I would go to my friend's houses

and play computer games. And what do you, do you remember how you felt when your dad made your mom do that? It's probably pretty sad. I was like, damn, that game looks super awesome. And it's funny because I would play video games on that computer all time, but it was just like pinball. and stuff like that. And they just came with the computer and I don't think he'd knew.

Yeah. So it sounds like there were, you know, and what did they fight about? Everything. I can't remember specific arguments, but they just did not get along very well. Do you remember? I was in eighth grade. Okay. When you were 13?

Yeah, just about, yeah. When was your first panic attack? Like 16. Okay. But I will say in like, This is, this is, you know, maybe not relevant, but, like, I experienced my first panic attack when I was smoking weed. So. It's actually very relevant. Okay.

We can talk about that, too. So, I'm going to just, I'm trying to figure out how to goose step around this, but I'm just going to come out. So it sounds like, you know, you grew up in a household that breeds anxious kids. potentially. I mean, my mom dealt with a pretty bad anxiety. My sister deals with anxiety depression and I deal with anxiety. So it's, you know, possibly passed down as well. Yeah. So sure, there's a hereditary component. So there's a really interesting study, kind of bizarre. So they take kids who are anxious and parents who are anxious. And what they actually do is give anxiety medication to the parents. And then the kid's anxiety goes down. Interesting. Get some.

almost the same therapeutic benefit as medicating the kid. And it's really weird, but like anxiety is sort of, you know, kids are very attuned to their parents. And so like when the parent is anxious, like imagine you're six years old and like your mom is like freaking out, right? Like what, like the kid is going to be like, what's wrong? I'm freaking out. I don't understand what's going on, but I can tell it's bad.

This is really fascinating study. But what I'm kind of really noticing is that like if we think about anxiety, what I think about as of anxiety is like anticipation of danger. So if you really think about, you know, I don't it sounds kind of like a weird question, but why do human beings get anxious? Like why? Like, but we have parts of our brain that make us anxious. And why does our brain do that? And it's because anxiety is actually a protective mechanism. So our brain's capacity to anticipate danger actually protects us.

and what I'm actually noticing is that your house was sort of a dangerous place. Like, if you sit on the bed, like you got like you like you like, you know, I don't, I mean, this may be so booked into you. But like, you know, I can't imagine what it's like to live in a house where like if you sit in your bed, like what would your dad do? It wouldn't like hurt us, but we'd probably get yelled at. Right. And to go up on that even more.

Like I know, I know everything that I dealt with as a kid was obviously very strange. and I'm like pretty close with my wife and her dad and like we kind of like, you know, we talk about it and laugh about it. And like when we're at family dinners, like I tell my dad the crazy stuff he did. He's like, that never happened. You know, we laugh about it. But how does it feel when he says that never happened? Doesn't bother me because me and my sister know it was true.

You know, we're not making this stuff up. But when we were like living there, like we were only allowed to eat at like designated eat times. and I mean like there was breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there was no in between. And we would literally sneak snacks. And because we'd be hungry and like eventually when my parents got divorced, I lived with my dad for the first year and I didn't like it because my mom and my sister weren't there. So I ended up living my mom. And eventually my dad found like all these hidden like snack wrappers and trash in my closet

because if we threw them in the trash, you would see him. Like legit. And I remember going to bed hungry and I would have to. like tell my mom like I'm hungry and she would have to sneak me food like she would literally sneak me like ham and cheese and stuff like in my bed just so I wouldn't go to bed hungry do you remember how you felt when you were hungry and she was doing that no like I said I didn't I just thought my dad was super strict and you know my mom wasn't strict like that was my thought process it wasn't like my dad is a horrible human being and people are probably thinking that

and I don't really want them to think that. You know, looking back at it, he was definitely kind of a dick. But I don't know if it's how he was, you know, raised and whatnot. My grandpa was like the nicest guy on earth, by the way. So I don't know. I don't know if that's where you got it from. Yeah. So I want to just say a couple of things.

So first is that, you know, sometimes when people come on stream and they share like things from their upbringing, like they can paint their parents to be in a really bad light. And that's not really what we're here. for. No, yes. I'm going to try to do. And so I think it's like, especially as children, you know, I'm sure your dad did all kinds of awesome stuff too.

We're just not talking about it. And actually sounds like, or maybe not. Maybe. I mean, he used to play baseball with me and take me to my games and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, there was probably some, there's probably some, you know, awesome stuff in there. All right. So let's just, you know, we're not here to bash your dad.

And at the same time, I think it's really important. to not let protecting a parent get in the way of your authentic experience of growing up. Right, yeah. Right. But, I mean, this is going to sound kind of weird, Chuck, but, like, you know, you kind of grew up in a fucked up household, bro. I've gotten that before. Right. And so I think the important thing there is that, like, I could imagine, like, I could just imagine, like, when I put myself in your shoes, like, having,

You know, it sounds like, and I know this is going to make your dad sound like in a bad light, but it actually like reminds me, like, I've worked with some people who are like Holocaust survivors. And like they're like, you know, they're being snuck food like living in like they're like in a closet and someone has to like sneak them food. You know, like being snuck food is like it's just not a common experience. Yeah, as a father, I couldn't imagine like my kid. you know, saying he's hungry and I'm like, no, go to bed. Like, it's not time to eat. Like, it's like, no.

Absolutely, right? And so the other interesting thing is like, what I'm hearing from you, Chuck, is that the anxiety is like baked into you. Possibly, yeah. And the interesting thing is if you really think about it, like, what would happen if your dad caught your mom sneaking you ham and cheese? I don't know. He probably yelled her.

Right? So in that, and so the tricky thing here is that I'm asking you how you felt, but I think it was so normalized to be anxious and anticipate. Let's not even talk. Let's separate the emotion from it for a second. It was such a normal part of your thought process to anticipate danger and to be in danger. What do you think about that? It's just like, it's just how the household worked, right? It's like, now I'm home. Dad can't see me playing ping pong. Got to be not anxious. I got to anticipate that danger. Dad can't. see me sit on my bed. Oh, crap, I threw my book on my bed. I better clean it up before

dad sees the impression of the weight of the book on my bed. If I eat too fast, I'm going to puke. If I eat too slow, I'm not going to get to eat. So there's like danger, anticipation, like, everywhere you look in the household. Possibly created like a lot of my overthinking potentially. Like, I wouldn't say that I had like anxious thoughts back then, but it's maybe helped like form the way that I think today and if that makes sense. Absolutely. I think it makes a lot of sense. I think the way that you think today is a survival adaptation from how you grew up.

What do you think about that? It's very possible, yeah. Right? So like your anxiety isn't an enemy. It's just like when I'm, you know, so this is how our mind works. It's kind of like cement. So like the early changes in our mind solidify later in time. Like why, if you think about like learning how to walk, do you know how to walk?

I think so, yeah. How solidly do you know how to walk? Some people say not very well since I walk on my toes. But I get from A to B. Yeah, right? So when we think about it, like so much fundamental programming is laid down, like our capacity for language. Our capacity to understand. What are you doing with your face right now?

What is that? What do we call that? I think I'm just smiling. Yeah, but what is that? How did you learn how to do that? I think it's just programmed. Yeah, right? It's so baked in.

Yeah. And so what I'm noticing is that early on, because here's the thing, those are just the things that you remember. And it sounds like your dad has gotten better over time. Yeah, he's all right, no. Right? So, like, I don't even know, like, what he did when you, you know, pooped your pants when you were one. Honestly, he comes over and he sees my kids and like, I'm convinced he didn't have kids because this guy is, you know, like, I love my dad, but he doesn't know how to talk to him. He doesn't know how to hold him. He doesn't know how to like, it's just like, hey, you guys are my grandkids. You're awesome. It's like, you know. Yeah. So it looks like he has no idea what's going on. I'm going to assume that my mom took care of everything.

So, Chuck, I'm going to ask you a question. What would it be like? You have a son? I have two sons, actually. Oh, oh. So you have two sons. What would it be like for them if they never interacted with their dad or their dad never took care of them? I think they would be pretty sad. I'm pretty awesome. Certainly.

They love dad. I don't think they would be sad because they wouldn't know. Oh. Right? Well, I feel like now you're throwing shade at me. No, I'm just kidding. No, but I'm saying like, so this is, I think for, you, there were a lot of things that I think you missed out on that you don't even realize you

missed out because, but you certainly missed out. Like it would be, they wouldn't be sad. It would be sad for them. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. And like, like I said, my, my wife's dad comes here a lot. Um, and we talk about stories of like what they did with as like kids and what he did for them. And I'm like, they'd be like, yeah, you never did this. And I'm like, no. You know, so definitely, I'm very aware, you know, of the childhood I had. Right. And it's kind of weird because it's not even like you,

you sort of know intellectually you missed out, but like you didn't miss out kind of emotionally because it was just normal for you. But I am noticing that there's a, you know, there's a lot of evidence that your mind learned how to anticipate danger and that you were kind of like a home base, your place of safety required a lot of vigilance. So here's another term that I'm going to toss out, which I think describes your anxiety very well.

hyper vigilance what do you think? I don't know that one for so vigilance means you know to be watchful and hyper is to be like constantly watchful

constantly on guard do you think that describes what happens in your mind possibly possibly I still kind of feel like I mean I guess I'm constantly on guard of like my own emotions

per se like you know not necessarily like my environment and stuff Like, I'm generally pretty easygoing. Like, I would say, like, my wife is, like, way more like, you know, what's going on around me, you know, what's this, what's that? I'm just constantly on guard, like, okay, I don't want to have a panic attack right now. Like, you know?

Yep. So I'm noticing that the guard is internal instead of external. Like, you're manning the walls of your own mind to make sure that the bucking Bronco doesn't get in. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. How did it feel to talk about your upbringing?

Honestly, it doesn't, it doesn't really bother me too much. Like, that wasn't the thing that I was actually too nervous about because I've talked about it before. Like, you know, even on stream, maybe not too often. You know, I've talked about like my friends obviously, you know, knew me and kind of knew my dad was a little crazy and my wife and I actually just think it's funny at this point, you know. Okay. Okay. So I would say things didn't necessarily get better, but they also didn't get worse, you know. Okay.

Okay. So it sounds like, and what's your understanding of why you're smiling right now? Because I just think it's funny. Okay. Yeah, this is, yeah, I guess you either laugh or cry. Yep. Yeah, I just, I don't know. I've told these stories a thousand times, like at this point.

Like, I really do just think they're kind of funny. Have you cried about them? Maybe. If I did, I couldn't remember. Okay. I doubt I did. And so it sounds like you were very nervous about sharing something else. Can you help us understand what that is?

We don't necessarily have to share it. just curious what were you nervous about? I'm okay to share it. Um, but like the way I like experienced my first panic attack and stuff like it's just it's scary. It's, you know, I remember it so, so vividly and, uh, you know, exactly what was going on in my brain. And it's just like, it was just a lot. It was just a lot. And I think like that's like my, my fear to like get back to that place, I guess. Are you afraid that if we talk about it, you'll let the bucking Bronco back into your mind? Not necessarily because I feel like I have talked about it before, but I was like definitely

in a better mind state. If that makes sense. Like so this is this is the series of events that happened. Like my sister growing up like kind of I think she dealt with our childhood differently. Like she kind of like, you know, did smoke and did drink at a younger age, stuff like that. And I saw that and I didn't really like want to be a part of that. And, you know, like my friends smoked and stuff. I just didn't care.

Like my friends would drink. I didn't want to. My friends would smoke and I didn't want to. And one day, one of my friends convinced me to smoke and we smoked and it was chill. And then he convinced me again. And I had like that really terrible experience, which I can get into into more detail. And, you know, I just kind of chopped it up as like, wow, like that was bad. They're like, yeah, you know, you had a tough time.

You know, it's whatever. But it didn't really affect me. You know what I mean? It didn't affect me. And then I tried smoking again. It was fine. And I tried smoking again. and then that's when

that's when the problems occurred. It was the fourth time. And I remember what happened was like I started experiencing like what I experienced the first time. And I was in someone's house and I went outside and I sat there in the freezing cold, shivering like, you know, for like an hour. And it didn't take control of me like it did the first time. But like it kept feeling like it was. But I remember during that time having the thought process, what is this? What if this never goes away?

And as soon as that thought went into my mind, I've had to deal with it forever. And I remember, like, you know, the next few days going out, like, like just being in random people's car. Things that I never would have thought about before. Like, what if I have a panic attack right now? You know? And then for like a week, it went away, like completely. And I mean, like, not even, it wasn't even thought in my mind. And I remember, you know, I don't know what caused it, but I just remember that morning.

Like I was over at my friend's house who stayed up all morning. and we were probably basketball in the morning. And later that night we went to a movie theater. And someone in the movie theater came up to me. They're like, you're CDoo. And I lost it. Completely lost it. Like I felt all those feelings coming back.

I don't know if I was in shock or what. And I ran out of the movie theater and I was crying. I had to get my sister picked me up. And ever since then, like it was always a thought in my mind. Like almost, I would say almost every single day. Like there was a thought in my mind that I might have a panic attack. Like since that day. When you said the feelings came up, what does that mean?

How do I explain it? It feels like it almost feels like I'm like looking at things through my mind, not my eyes. Like I'm experiencing things around me. Like it just, it feels like everything stops. And I could explain to you like what happens like what happened in my first panic attack. But when I feel like I'm having a panic attack, it feels like everything stops. Like, and in my original panic attack, I froze, like, and I felt like, you know, it wasn't reality.

But so I remember very specifically my first panic attack. I was eating bacon, cheddar cheese fries. They were one of my favorite meals. And I remember swallowing one and my mind envisioned it going down my throat. Like, I could see it today. Like, you know, I mean, things that don't even make sense. And I remember sitting up and I said, oh my God, I'm going to die. And my friend, my friend immediately, like, reacted to that.

like what what what don't say that don't say that like and that scared me even more and i i remember freaking out saying like oh my god i'm going to die i'm going to die and i had bunk beds and i started punching my bunk beds as hard as i could because i didn't feel like you know i wanted to feel something and then i remember like literally like standing up like hovered over like this and i don't know why but this was my thought process i was i was on trial for life and death and I remember being on a stage and having a full audience around me and I had to plea my case why I shouldn't die today. And I was literally pleading like, you know what?

Like there's this girl I really like in school. Like I never talk to her. I swear I'm going to talk to it. And I was trying to beg to not die. Like that was my first panic attack. And, you know, I can still like remember everything around me and like. Clearly. Yeah.

it was it was pretty bad it was pretty bad and then um you know eventually i kind of like snapped out of it i would say and i like took a cold shower and i remember like some of the feelings coming back on in the shower where like you know it felt like i was kind of like getting like sucked in again almost and then i would just be like nope i'm fine like you're going to be good but that that was my first panic attack and it was uh that's what i'm afraid of i guess is like losing full control to where like i I felt like I couldn't move. Like, I swear, it felt like I was stone. Like, I couldn't move.

Like, I was just stuck in place. Have you talked to the person who prescribes your medication about this? No. I don't know if I necessarily like that guy. I told him, like, my anxiety is about anxiety. He's like, no, it's not. And I'm like, okay, you just don't really want to listen. You just want to prescribe medicine?

Like, wait. When he said your anxiety is about anxiety and he said, no, it's not? Yeah, it didn't. Yeah. I'm not, I don't really think he's like the person for me to talk to. Okay. I mean, I think he just prescribes medicine and, you know, he's like, no, no, it's not. Like there's there's a different route.

And I'm like, you know, I think about this stuff a lot and I kind of feel like I know what the root is. But what's the root? I kind of feel like that was the root right there. I feel like that was like. Yeah, you're damn right. It is. Yeah. I feel like that was the day that like, you know, like I always tell myself, I wish I never smoked weed and, you know, you know.

But I feel like eventually I would have dealt with this problem anyway because it's happened before without smoking, you know. Not to that extent. Can I think for a second? Yeah, take your time. So, Chuck, I want to just acknowledge something for a second. So I think that like what I'm about to say is it's still sort of for educational purposes, but it's going to use a lot of diagnostic language. And I would really hesitate to say that. this for a couple of reasons. The main reason that I'm going to offer to share something in a moment

is because you do have a provider. And I think that ultimately our goal here on stream is to try to like help you. Right. So I want to share sort of a different perspective based on some of the attributes that you're sharing, which I definitely think you should follow up with a medical professional. Think about it and follow up with a medical professional. And because, you know, we don't really diagnose or treat things on stream, but I feel like I have an ethical responsibility to share with you another perspective for looking at your anxiety. Is that okay? Yeah. So what you're describing to me, because you were smoking marijuana, so like sometimes when people, so now we're going to go real general, okay? And I want you to just kind of think about this and figure out whether this is,

you know, applies to you or not. You know, in a different scenario, if you were actually my patient, I would tunnel down into this more. And I think it's a useful thing for you to tunnel down with a provider. Unfortunately, I can't do that with you. But I feel like I would be honestly doing you an ethical disservice if I at least didn't float this idea and give you the opportunity to talk to a licensed professional about it. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when we smoke marijuana, marijuana actually has two kind of components. One is sort of a pro-psychotic component and one is an antipsychotic component. And there's a version of marijuana called K2, which is synthetic marijuana. And the problem with synthetic marijuana is that normal marijuana has like THC and CBD and has a bunch of

other compounds. But basically depending on the blend of THC and CBD, it has a certain propensity to like, because you know like pot makes people paranoid, right? So some of that paranoia is kind of like more in line with psychosis. And so when people use synthetic K2, the problem with K2, it makes people like really freaking psychotic and they get, you know, brought to the ER, really steer clear of K2 and in general marijuana as well. But what I'm really hearing from you doesn't sound like a panic attack. It sounds like sort of like more like a bad trip. Does that make sense?

Yes. And so sometimes what happens with people who have bad trips, is not that they have anxiety. So we call it anxiety, but what I'm almost hearing is like a traumatic experience from a bad trip. And really what I'm hearing sounds to me

like I think you need a far more thorough kind of diagnostic with someone who listens. So like what we're dealing with maybe an anxiety disorder, not really our place to determine here, but could also be PTSD from a bad trip. And this is where sometimes from a treatment perspective, it's really important to have a clinician who listens to you

because the treatments are actually quite different. And I don't know that you're ever, like, approaching it as an anxiety disorder and approaching it as PTSD from a bad trip are going to like help you approach it in different ways and may actually help you. And if you're not getting better, and this is also just general principles now, okay, so if you're working with a psychiatric provider and you're not getting better to your satisfaction, I strongly encourage everyone out there to bring up your dissatisfaction with the psychiatric provider. Because a lot of times, this is, you know, not really specific to you really at this point, but a lot of times like, you know, as a psychiatric provider, I ask you, how's the medication working? And most people are like,

it's working some. You know, it's not perfect, but it seems to be doing a good job. And then as a clinician, I don't know if that's just like your anxiety is so severe and we're kind of like okay with this or if what I should do as a clinician is sit down and rethink your diagnosis. That may be a different kind of like, why are we wiping on the raid? You know, is it like, is it that, you know, we're hitting the DPS or are we messing up at the DPS race or is it that our comp is messed up? Or like, there are all kinds of differential diagnoses for why the raid is not succeeding. And sometimes, that involves like just further anxiety treatment.

But if we start to treat your anxiety, double down on anxiety treatment, which you really have is PTSD related to like a psychotic hallucinatory experience, those are different things. And they can both look like anxiety. But this is where, you know, out of everyone that I've ever talked to on stream, I would encourage you the most to go and really get like reevaluated or, have a really good in-depth conversation with a licensed mental health professional about your situation. And I would share this stuff with them because in a sense, it's not their fault.

You know, you can't hold them accountable if you're not sharing information. So I would really go and share this experience and then kind of like, you know, find someone that you like and you trust and then really kind of get a good, like thorough diagnostic evaluation, which sometimes can take hours. So it can happen over the course of weeks and things like that. But what I'm hearing right now just really makes me concerned that, you know, what we're talking about is like, you know, this intense moment where you were like in this courtroom. Like that's like divorce from reality, right? Like that wasn't actually happening. And this is what's kind of interesting is when people have like hallucinations and stuff when they use substances. It feels real. And the impact on

your brain, even if it's not real, your brain experiences it. Does that make sense? Definitely. Yeah. And so the effects on your neurochemistry in the way that your brain wires are as if it's real. And this also gets into a whole other thing about like what is the nature of reality and dreams and all this kind of crap. We had a good conversation with Ludwig about it that if you want to go back and watch, like it may give you some insight into this. But at this point, I just want to check in with you. What do you think about what we're talking about, Chuck? In regards to what? Just like this conversation.

Like, how do you feel about where we are? I mean, I guess I feel okay. I wouldn't say I feel like any type of way about it. I would say like I was definitely a little nervous to share like what I went through. I'm not really sure why. But, you know, it didn't really like, you know, because I thought I've been thinking about this for like the whole week like you know is he going to ask me like how i experienced my first panic attack and stuff like that and then you know my brain kind of goes down the road of like you know

thinking about i'm like oh crap i don't really want to think about this you know but um i don't know and i definitely um i definitely kind of agree with you i do think to a certain extent i do have anxiety because um i just kind of do feel like i deal with every everyday stress and stuff and I do think the medication is helping me um but in the same sense i do think i do think think that like I do have that like trauma of like that's not where I want to get back to like yeah that's there's the living crap ought to be yeah so so just so you understand like you know this hyper vigilance that I referenced earlier is really a feature of PTSD so like what happens if you think about a traumatic event like you know if I've been sexually assaulted in a parking lot

like I'm going to steer like I never want to be in a parking lot at night again like I will come a hell or high water I will avoid that situation at all costs. And what I'm really, like, so early on when I mentioned agoraphobia to you, remember, like, agoraphobia is about avoidance. It's all about avoidance. And what I'm hearing, when we talk about the bucking bronco in ignoring your thoughts, it's about avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

So could this be an anxiety disorder? Absolutely. Could this be like, you know, hallucinator, like a marijuana induced PTSD? Absolutely. And that's something where I think really, like, you deserve. to have someone a licensed mental health professional sit down with you and really talk through that. Do you, what was it like to actually share that experience? It was all right.

I mean, I've shared it before to people who are close to me. Obviously, like, you know, I was with my friend at the time, you know, during it. But, I mean, yeah, well, I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Like, I feel like I'm kind of relaxed right now for the most part. What do you mean by relaxed? Do you mean your baseline level of anxiety or do you mean relaxed? I guess in these days it's kind of hard to tell a difference because I kind of feel like it's always there. Yeah, I understand that.

So like I want to just point something out to you. You've never used the word relaxed today. Mm-hmm. So like I think that that's the right word. I think you actually are somewhat relaxed. And the reason that I think you should see a therapist is because this is how therapy works. Right. Right.

So like when you share the thoughts that you have inside, you know, remember how we talked about, and this isn't not, there are many ways to do this, but I want to just explain this principle of the mind, which is remember, we were talking about when you add energy to the mind, the anxiety gets worse. So one of the ways that we can vent energy from the mind is through things like therapy. But essentially what you're doing is letting that excess energy out. So like there are thoughts, and I don't know if this makes sense. This is really more like a yogic perspective. So you can journal, for example, or you could do therapy or you could share it with a friend. The point is that you want to vent because right now what happens when you have thoughts is they just bounce around in your head and they have nowhere to go. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And so what you need to do, it doesn't matter whether it's actually therapy or not, but like you just need some way to vent the energy in the mind. And as you vent the energy in the mind, whether through journaling, through therapy, through talking. through a friend. You can talk to your dog if you want to. Like it doesn't really matter. Like it's not about who's on the other end. It's about venting it from your mind.

And then you're going to feel more relaxed because it's no longer bouncing around. Now the reason to do therapy is because the person on the other end of the table, unlike a dog, is going to be trained at helping you vent. Right? What are you thinking now? You just started

smiling. My dogs are definitely not trained in anything So they definitely They're definitely not going to be helping me out with anything Yeah How many dogs do you have? I have four Okay

Wow, that's a lot, man It's a lot of dogs, yep Four dogs, two kids, two cats Oh, and cats Wow So that's Busy It is very busy

And married to boot What's up? I said and married on top of that Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Wow, it sounds like you have quite a full life, Chuck. I do, and I actually like it quite a bit, you know. I really do like my life.

I'm very, you know, lucky to be able to do what I do and, you know, afford to even have, you know, this many things relying on me. but yeah it's just uh this is this is this is i guess the one the one little area in which i struggle with and yeah can can we talk about when your wife was pregnant sure so what what happened then i mean it's hard for me to say i guess like maybe i'm not like the greatest at like um i'm not the greatest at uh i guess picking up on my emotions but i definitely just i started to notice like those feelings like of anxiety like hitting me like randomly like you know and almost like it was

like building up like I like I was playing in like hockey leagues and I just remember like playing hockey and be like feeling kind of anxious right now like this is abnormal like you know like you know like you know it wasn't just like the thoughts like oh I don't want to have like I was kind of feeling it like almost like a panic attack was coming on and like I said I'm pretty good at like deterring those now just because like as afraid is I of them happening. I'm also like fully aware of like when they're happening and I and I like, you know, understand like, you know, the more you feed in, the worst is going to be. You just got to take deep rest and just, you know, do what you got to do.

And I just, it's almost like, it's almost like weird how it happened. But, you know, I don't, I also don't talk about this very often, but I'm religious and I go to church and stuff. And I was just sitting in church one day, you know, with my wife and my dad and his. his wife, his new wife, and it just hit me. And I didn't have a panic attack. It didn't hit me like that. It just hit me like a wrecking ball of nervousness where I'm just like, you know, I couldn't stop shaking and I couldn't stop thinking.

And it's like it was like a completely different experience of what I experienced as my panic attack. Does that make sense? Yeah. So tell me what was your experience of being hit? What did you get hit by? It just, it just felt like constant overthinking. constant nervousness. Like, I couldn't even tell you what I was thinking at the time.

But, like, that was like the day that I kind of felt like, you know, broke the, broke the camel's back or, you know, straw that broke the back. And I just remember going home that night and just being like unbelievably nervous. And I couldn't stop overthinking. And, you know, I have taken like, you know, small dosages of Xanax before because, you know, I've had like this issue for a long time. It's been prescribed. I really don't take it.

almost ever, like literally almost ever. And I had like, you know, half of like a small dose of one just kind of calm me down a little bit. And I just kind of thought like, I guess just like random stuff. Like this is completely like maybe irrelevant. But like one of the thoughts in my mind was like the lead singer of Lincoln Park or maybe not the lead singer, but he like recently committed suicide. And I'm like, is this why? Is this what he was dealing with?

Like that thought has crossed my mind before too where it's like. Is this what people, you know, decide to say like they can't take it anymore? And like that obviously really scared me. And yeah, it's just, you know, that day it never like really got better. Like that was the day where for months I couldn't live my life. Like literally every single day I would wake up first thing on my mind. I would, I sleep like a rock. So I would go to sleep and I would wake up shaking.

And the first thing on my mind is like, okay, I'm anxious. Okay, like I'm going to have panic attack today. Like even like even today like the first thing when I open my mind the first word in my my my head is anxiety every single day like and it wasn't always like that you know sometimes I could wake up and I wouldn't think about it for a few hours but it is literally the default thought process in my brain right now is just that word like anxiety and my anxious. It sounds angry it sucks I just don't like it you know it bothers me I don't want it to be there you know, I wake up in the morning with my kids or my dogs or whatever reason.

It's the first thing I think about, you know, it's what I got to think about before I go to sleep. And, you know, it's like, I just don't like most of the time, I will say it's definitely better as of recently. I don't have what I want to call it my peace of mind. I don't have my mind just resting, thinking about useless stuff. You know, it's just, it's just always lasered in on this subject most of the time. Sometimes I do. And sometimes I'll literally like get a break and I'll be like, wow, I was thinking about random stuff.

Well, now that I'm thinking about this, now it's time to think about anxiety. Like it literally like circles back. Like, oh, wow, I had a break. I can't believe I had a break. Now I'm not going to have a break because I'm overthinking it. Chuck, is there a part of you that's afraid that like something fundamentally broke that day and will never be fixed? Maybe essentially, like I do think like, you know, maybe I'll never have like what was my normal. I think like maybe that's kind of like why sometimes I I'm actually afraid to get help because what if it doesn't help?

You know, what if all this stuff that is supposed to help me doesn't help? So what I'm hearing is that, you know, if you get help, if you, as long as you're not getting help, you're delaying final doom. Potentially, yeah. You know, it's a good reason to avoid help. Yeah. I just, yeah, I'm just stuck in a loophole. it feels like that just doesn't end. I'm sorry, bro.

Yeah, I appreciate it. Can I offer a couple of thoughts? Absolutely. So I don't think you are broken. I think what you have can be fixed. I think that the mind has an amazing reparative quality. The body has an amazing reparative quality. I think that somehow what you're doing is you're doing like endgame content at level 52.

That's what it feels like to me. I actually feel like you're doing remarkably well given how much you've handicapped yourself. I think it's really amazing that you've managed to continue to build a life and not let what sounds like truly crippling levels of anxiety. And by crippling, what I mean, is like, not that they're crippling in their intensity, but they're like, you sound to me like a dude who's been, you know, rating for the last three years in one encounter. Like, you've just been like, it's a marathon, man. Like, I'm hearing a marathon of just never ending. And like, somehow, you know, you're still, like, you haven't wiped yet.

And it's kind of like what I'm hearing from you in terms of, you know, you know, getting treatment is that there's a lot of like resistance. And that resistance comes from, first of all, the fear that like, what if this doesn't help? Because then you're like truly S.O.L. Like, like, it's kind of interesting. But sometimes the reason that we don't shoot our shot is because if we fail, then we've got nothing. You know, I see this oddly enough in the weirdest places like people who like have a crush. And like, as long as I don't get rejected, there's always the chance that something will have. happen. But if I shoot my shot and they say no, it's like, then I'm truly finished. Right. And so I sort of get where you're coming from because I think that there is,

that too is like, by the way, a product of your mind. It's not like, it's not like, you know, you're incorrect. I imagine that there have been experiences in your life where you've like put yourself out there. Like, and this could be like really small kind of instance. significant things, but like where you told your dad, dad, I'm hungry. And he's like, no way you're getting food. It didn't exactly happen like that. But yeah. Right. And so like your mind learned early on that like and then maybe even like your mom would have said, oh, well, like now that you asked your dad, I can't sneak it for you. But in limbo, there's like there's some kind of, you know, in limbo we can

actually benefit. So I sort of get that you're kind of feeling like fatalistic about. about it. I think that a lot of your fears are also kind of coming in there where like there's this like, you know, this mentioned this thing about Lincoln Park and it's sort of like, if I try to get help and it doesn't work, what I see you kind of being afraid of is then you wind up where that guy was. I'm very afraid of that, yeah. Right? So this is where like, you know, I can understand that you're afraid of it, but that's actually what gives me hope. because that crap we can deal with. Like, you know, deal, like, like, Chuck, the reason I'm hopeful for you is because I think you actually haven't.

I mean, there you are in the level 60 raid being level 52. And you're like, I don't know if I can win. And what I see is like, bro, you can level, you can gain eight levels. There's still a lot of things that you can try. It sounds like you haven't tried psychotherapy. You know, it sounds like maybe a reformulation of your diagnosis. it sounds like continuing to learn like different kinds of breathing practices,

learning meditation, doing some of this exploratory work, potentially journaling or other things. There's a lot of stuff that you can still do. So oddly enough, even though you feel like a little bit hopeless or really what I'm getting from you is that you don't want to roll the dice

and wind up hopeless. Yeah. But what I'm really seeing is that there's like, you're kind of like I'm opening up your, character and like I'm seeing that you have a sword and shield equipped, but you don't, you don't even have a helmet on. And like, you don't even have boots on. And it's like, there's a lot you can do. Because then it's almost like you're going into a raid and you're like, okay, I can wipe and at least I have an excuse for wiping because I don't even have the right gear. But if I gear up

properly and then I wipe, well, then like, then I can't clear it, right? Like, I have nothing, nothing left. No excuses. Does that make sense? Or is that just, is my analogy just getting worse and worse and worse? I understand. So, so those are the things that actually make me really hopeful for you, that I think if you like, you know, if you put on, if you fill up every gear slot, don't even worry about like enchanting and putting in gems and crap like that because you have all that too. I mean, we're talking about basics. We're not even talking about, I mean, there are some people who will come in and will have like five years of therapy under their belt. And I'm still hopeful because they haven't tried this other kind of therapy.

And so there's a lot of like enchanting and like, you know, gem kind of work and like other kinds of set bonuses. Like we haven't even gotten there. We're talking about the basics. We're talking about finding a therapist and like talking to them about something like that. How do you feel about that now? I guess I can try and find a therapist. Like I said, you know, I kind of for a while felt like if I went to a therapist, it could just like I don't know. I was something I didn't necessarily want to do.

I guess like my my thought process was like, you know, does this make me crazy like or something like that? Yeah. I mean, how do you feel about that? I mean, I definitely can see, uh, positive benefits of talking about it in general. You know what I mean? Like, and just I'll tell you right now, like generally speaking, Twitch chat is not all these, you know, in some sections,

it's not the place to be vulnerable. and like me, me like having that experience on stream and like getting like such a positive benefit out of it when I was like my most vulnerable. Like, you know, it definitely means that talking about it has got to be good because it made things better, you know?

Yeah. So, Chuck, I think first of all, I think that we all do this where I think we aren't entirely fair to Twitch chat because I find that. that Twitch hat is almost like a kid where like the standard that you hold them up to is the standard that they're going to live up to. Fair enough. And so sometimes, you know, parents will come to me with problematic kids.

So like I once had this kid who was, you know, having a lot of behavioral problems. And my treatment for him was to hook him up. He was a high school kid to set him up with an internship at Harvard Medical School. And I was like, this kid's problem is that like, people are not treating, they're treating him too lowly. And that's what I found with Twitch chat is when you, when you act like Twitch chat is a bunch of degenerate nobs, they'll live up to your expectations.

And when you act like Twitch hat can save the world, they won't let you down. Whatever your expectations are, Twitch chat will arise to meet them. I want to just talk about one thing that you said that if you see a therapist that kind of makes you crazy, So this is going to sound kind of weird. That was like my thought process in a sense.

Yep, it's a completely reasonable thought process. So I don't think that people are crazy, like makes me crazy. So I definitely think that, you know, some of the experiences you're describing, I think like crazy sort of fits. Right. But like I think this is important to understand. I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I want you to understand that like the experiences that you had are quite drastic. and outside of the realm of normal experience. And at the same time, that doesn't say anything about you as a person.

And I'm sorry if this, you know, is offensive. But I want everyone to understand that our mind has crazy experiences. It's just what our mind does. And I don't think you're crazy. You actually sound chock to me to be incredibly sane. And like I said, even some of these things like if I ignore my anxiety and it'll go away, a lot of people will hear that and think that it's stupid, I think it's actually brilliant. Because I think it's what you have learned that actually works.

And one of the biggest things that I try to explain to people is that the mind oftentimes doesn't malfunction. The mind functions the best way it knows how to. And when we stop assuming that the mind is broken is when we truly get power over it. That's when we truly understand it. That everything that your mind does, usually, not everything, but a lot of what your mind is for a reason. And the more that we understand, even your resistance to therapy is completely logical, right? There's a lot of stuff riding on that. Like, you know, you're kind of like, because your strategy is to ignore it and it'll go away. Going to therapy is like the opposite of

your winning strategy. So, of course, you're going to be resistant to it. And it's not, it's not dumb to be resistant to therapy. It makes a lot of sense. But now this is where I would ask you, you know, how is your experience today talking about it been? It's been fine. Like, obviously, I was like a little nervous about being on here and stuff, but I, you know, I feel like I'd benefited being on here today. How? I knew I would. Well, number one, I feel like I'm kind of like getting over fears of sharing. And I feel like that was something that I definitely didn't do, especially with strangers.

Number two, you know, you kind of are making me feel like a little less bad about myself saying like some of the strategies and stuff that, you know, I've been doing. is okay and like I'm having like normal thought processes and stuff like that. So I don't know. It's just like reassuring, I guess. Yeah. Why are you smiling now? I guess I like to be right. I answered your question right.

I don't know. I mean, you're the one who tell us. I asked you how. It's your answer. I don't have the right answer. You have the right answer, Chuck. But yeah, I mean, I think you've done a really good job today. I think it's, you know, I do not envy you.

I think you come across as an incredibly, I think you're incredibly strong, Chuck. Like when I hear about the fullness of your life, like I understand that you're grateful and stuff, which is all awesome. But it doesn't sound easy, bro. It's not. You know, to wake up with anxiety every day, it just doesn't sound easy. takes its toll for sure. Yeah, man.

And so what I'm really hoping, I think you don't need to, I mean, I don't think you deserve to be fighting, you know, running that marathon. And this epic never-ending struggle against anxiety. And my hope is that some of these like really simple principles like, you know, venting some of that energy from your mind. Because, you know, when you say that you wake up in anxiety is the first thing there, it's because it's like a gas that. that's tracked. You've like farted into a bottle and you've closed the stopper. And so like in that bottle is methane and it smells bad. And what you've really got to do is just pop that cork and let that bad boy rip, you know. And and so there's a lot of negativity in there. There's a lot of fear in there. I understand that you carry it every day with, like you carry it. Right. That's

the best word that I have. I think it's an encumbrance problem more than anything else. And so I really hope that you can, you know, I'd strongly ask you to consider, you know, really seeing a therapist. I definitely will look into it for sure. I guess I just got to try and find someone with good reviews because I don't, you know, I don't want to get someone that isn't right for me, I suppose. Sure. So I think that good reviews go a long way, but fit goes a long way too. So a couple of rules of them. And, you know, if you need a little bit of support, I think we've got like a, you know, a quick guide or something.

We can send your way about finding. good therapist. We do have a creator coaching program, which normally at this point in the interview I would recommend to some people. I think you should actually see a therapist, though. You're welcome to sign up for our coaching program. They work with things like, you know, they're more specialized in things like burnout and imposter syndrome and those kinds of things. So they work with, we have a contract with Twitch, so Twitch is actually sponsoring it. But I think in your case, I would go see a therapist. I think it's really, and you could try out coaching if you want to, but I really think that.

that mental health treatment is appropriate for you. Does that sound judgmental to you? No. Okay. Do you have any questions for me? How long? No. I sort of feel like we're at a decent stopping point, but at the same time, you know,

there are a lot of other things that we could talk about. Like, I'm still, you know, I think another thing that is worth digging into is this sort of whatever happens subconsciously when your wife became pregnant. and and you know how that I think that may be a conversation for another day because I don't know how short that's going to be but I sort of feel like this is a decent stopping point because I've shared a lot with you and I'd love it if you could kind of digest that and I don't want to how can I say this? Sometimes I reach a point in a conversation where I feel if we keep talking, we may start to overwrite what we've covered so far. And my real desire to potentially pause is because I don't think that anything we're going to talk about now will outweigh the value of what we've talked about already, if that makes sense. Does that sound okay to you? Yeah, absolutely.

Do you have any questions? I don't. I'm not a question guy, really. I just kind of. Okay. I'm intrigued by what does that mean to not be a question guy, but so be it. I'll just let that curiosity ride. But go ahead.

I just generally, I, I, I just generally, people always ask when you're done, do you have any questions? And I always, I'm the one that looks at my wife. Like, do you have any questions? Because I'm good to go. Okay, okay. So, and then, are you interested in learning meditation? Possibly, I suppose. I didn't really like, so honestly, I had like this fear of kind of like being alone with my thoughts.

but like since I do the deep breathing like I kind of close my eyes and it's going to sound like the craziest thing ever but when I do my deep breathing I would say maybe just briefly for a second if that there's no negativity there's no anxiety you know I mean like it's just completely it's like all these like random thoughts that make absolutely no sense just kind of like pop into my brain like like like it was my normal. You know what I mean? And I would say that I was like really afraid of that for a long time. And then doing that for the first night, I was like, holy crap. Like, I guess this works, you know. So I guess I could be interested in learning meditation. But like I was, that was something that I would have been opposed to for a long time

until I started trying that breathing technique. Okay. So a couple of other reassuring points. So there's something cool about meditation. So when you do your deep breathing, you're back to. normal. And when you stop doing your deep breathing, normal ends, right? Maybe for the most part, yeah, but it's like, it's just kind of like me being weird. Like, did that help? Like, you know, is this going to help. Like, so this is what studies on meditation show that generally speaking,

when we meditate, it creates temporary changes to our mind. And the longer that we meditate, if you meditate for at least 20 minutes a day, three days a week, that's the bare minimum. The cool thing about meditation is that the longer you meditate and the better you get at it, the more, the longer the buff lasts. So it's sort of like when you start meditating, the buff lasts simply for the duration of the channeling. So I'm going to channel meditation and that's when I'm going to regain mana, right? It's like what's that mage spell? Evocation. Yeah.

So like for evocation, I only gain mana as long as I'm channeling. But something really magical happens with meditation, which is that it reaches a point where it's starts to rewire your brain and you actually like have a manicic post channeling. And this idea of like long term meditators who throughout their entire day, they're happier and their anxiety is lower on a baseline level. And that's because like as we literally rewire our brain, their neurons, so thoughts are generated by neurons. And so as you train your brain to have senseless thoughts instead of anxious thoughts, those patterns of neurons will start to like wire together and then they'll activate and then you'll be back to your normal thinking.

I have worked with people and taught them some people who have had anxiety disorders, like diagnosed anxiety disorders on medication for a decade. And after about a year or two of medication, they will be in what we call in psychiatry's sustained remission because we don't use the word cure because who knows. So what sustained remission is is like people who don't have anxiety and are off of medication. You know, I'm thinking about a particular person took like two years. But, you know, I think that that is possible. So now I've got two options for you.

One is that I've got a technique that is a little bit of a high risk, high reward technique. So what I mean by that is that it's a technique that's really going to work on a physiologic level. And so when you have anxiety and like kind of panic stuff, I want you to understand that you know how it like hits you out of the blue, right? So the mental process is not the start. The start is actually physiology. So you have a physiologic change, which then triggers particular thoughts. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So there's a particular technique that I think will work on. on your physiology, but may actually, oddly enough, induce a little bit of anxiety if we do it now,

if you're calm. But the idea behind this technique is that we're going to create anxiety and then teach you how to get out of it. And so if you're already anxious, it won't make it worse, but you'll kind of practice it getting out of it. That's sort of what I feel like teaching you today, but I just want to be a little bit cautious. And then I have a more sort of stable normal technique, which is going to be like easy piece of lemon squeasy. It's like, do you want an elite mob or do you want a regular mob? Like, what do you want to grind on today? I feel like would you judge me if I just say the regular one?

Not at all. Okay. Because I feel like generally speaking, like I feel like my anxiety is always kind of at a base level, you know, for the most part. And I feel like I do like a pretty decent job kind of like keeping myself calm. And I guess like having that potentially be raised. like, I don't know. That scares me a little bit. That's totally fine.

So, so I, you know, the reason that I, I don't judge you at all. And the reason I give you the choice is because I acknowledge that that could be a concern. Right. So it's not like, oh, like, you're not going to go and they, like, you're like, I don't want to wipe on the elite mob and then run back, you know, it's just, I ain't nobody got time for that. I can get, elite mob is worth 20% more XP, but like grinding on regular mobs is normally how you play wow, right? So totally fine. Okay. So I'm going to teach you something called alternate nostril breathing.

Okay. Tends to be my go-to technique. But it's really good from a physiologic perspective as well, but won't make anything worse. Okay. So can you do, so take your right hand, stick out your thumb, and then can you lift these two fingers? Good. So what I'm going to do, you have a deviated septum, by the way? I don't think so.

Okay. So what I'm going to do and do it with me is block my right nostril, breathe in through my left, and then with a chest full of air, I'm going to block the other nostril with the other two fingers, and then breathe out. Breathe in through the same nostril without switching. Switch and breathe out. In, switch, out, in, switch.

Good. Now close your eyes and go at your own pace. Remember that you want to switch on a full breath. Good. And then exhale and inhale again through the same nostril and then switch. We'll practice for about two minutes. Let your eyes remain closed. Go ahead and finish the breath that you're on.

And relax. Just sit with yourself. If you want to continue deep breathing, you can. But we'll just sort of sit in silent meditation for about a minute. And now I want you to breathe in for three seconds and out for three. And now in for three and out for five. And then in for three and out for seven. As you're ready to breathe in again, slowly open your eyes.

I'm supposed to say anything? If you want to. I wasn't sure if you're waiting on me. Yeah, not really. It's kind of awkward for people. they don't really know what they're supposed to do. I would definitely say this is a little bit, you know, I would say that this is probably not a very good public practice.

I feel like people probably watching the stream are probably like, you know, okay, we'll just sit here and wait for him to finish his breathing, you know. Yeah. Well, ideally what happens is people are meditating with us. Oh, okay, that makes sense. That definitely makes a lot more sense. I guess I should have instructed people, But I hope I'm noticing now that you were anxious about that.

No, not necessarily. I just thought it was kind of funny. Okay. Hmm. Yeah, what was that like for you, Chuck? It was good. I mean, you know, like I said, I enjoy my deep breathing quite a bit. I feel like it just kind of takes my mind to a nice rested place of relaxation.

And I like it quite a bit. Like I almost like, I don't want to say I look forward to it. because maybe that sounds dreadful that, like, I look forward to, you know, my 15 minutes before bed and my 15 minutes waking up. But, yeah, it's just nice. Like, it's just, it's nice to have that nice, like, relaxation before you sleep and, like, when you wake up. Although I must say, like, I have a little bit of a different schedule where, like, my wife wakes up with a kid. So I wake up a little earlier to feed the dogs or else they go crazy. So I wake up and then I don't do my breathing and then I feed them.

And I kind of chill for, like, 20 minutes while they're outside. Then I go back upstairs. and then I go to sleep and then I wake up for real and then I do my breathing. So maybe there's like a little bit of a disconnect there. I'm not really sure. But yeah. Yeah. I mean,

I don't think it sounds bad at all. It sounds like you essentially, you're meditating when you're doing deep breathing. Yeah. And I don't think it sounds crazy at all to look forward to meditating. You know, just a couple things. So first thing is that do whatever practice works for you. Sometimes people find that,

so this practice works. a little bit more physiologically than just plain deep breathing. But the most important common element, Chuck, is the length of your exhalation correlates with the slowness of your mind. So the longer you exhale, the slower your mind will be. The question. So you were instructing three seconds of inhale with longer exhales. Is that something that you would recommend for deep breathing too?

Because generally I do like as big as I can and then let out as big as I can. And I definitely notice like when I let out, like, I try and like fully deflate because I feel like that that always feels like really good. So, so not really. So what I'm telling you is the most important thing is the full deflation. Okay. So what I, the reason to. Yeah. So like that last bit is really about coming out of the meditative state and kind of like re-anchoring us into the world.

But the length of the exhalation is the most important. important thing. So the reason that this meditative, the one nostril breathing practice is that it just slows your breathing down because you're using half your nostrils to let the air in and let the air out. There are also some other kind of weird physiologic things like it sort of balances, it deactivates your parasympathetic nervous system, which is what releases like adrenaline and stuff like that. So it'll slow down. It'll work in a physiologic way to like reduce your pro-anxiety hormonal state. But deep breathing. can do it too. So I'd say ultimately do what works for you. This technique arguably is a little bit will be like statistically slightly more successful for people with anxiety. Okay. So would you recommend doing this in place of like the deep breathing before or after sleep? So I would I would recommend that you follow what works for you. But a good place to start would be you figure out which one you want to do first. but I would start probably with this one for about five to ten minutes and then do your normal deep breathing for about 10 minutes with a goal of about 20 minutes of practice.

Okay. That's that's completely reasonable. And then so just other questions, like how long, because you were kind of instructing me this time, like how long would you say like do the nostrils and then like switch into the regular breathing or whatever? or like, I guess, with both nostrils is what I'm saying. Yeah. So I would say do the alternate nostril breathing for five to ten minutes. And then do whatever deep breathing practice you have been doing for about 10 minutes.

So I mean like literally like continue to swap the nostrils for the full 10 minutes. Is that you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. For five to 10 minutes. Yeah. So. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And then after that do your own deep breathing practice where, you know, you're doing whatever. Another question is, does it matter, like, how I'm doing it? Like, generally, I kind of do my deep breathing, laying down, like, kind of preparing for bed.

Like, would it be preferred to sit up? Good question. So the most important thing is that your spine and your neck are straight. So laying down works. Sitting up works, standing up works. Okay. But your mind, your back needs to be straight. Okay.

I would say, though, if you're going to do this alternate nostril breathing practice, I would do that sitting up and then lay down and then do your regular deep breathing. Okay. I can do that. Okay. Excellent questions. Look at who has questions now, bitch. I guess I'll go.

All right. Sorry, I didn't need to tack on the bitch at the end. That's okay. You know. Not offended. Oh. Interesting, right? Because like, great questions.

Really fantastic questions, Chuck. Love them. Any other questions? Now, I may have embarrassed you or tanked it. No, I actually don't think I have any other questions. Okay, great. Excellent questions. So good luck to you.

You know, let me know how things go if you kind of, like, I think we have like a quick guide that will send people post stream. I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot, but I'm pretty sure we do this, where, you know, a lot of people, you know, have, like, more private questions or things like that about how to find a therapist and stuff. So I think we've got to, you know, so we can sort of help you with that a little bit. You know, if you, and so just take advantage of that if you want to. And then, you know, I think if you want to, I think there's still other stuff we could still talk about. So we can, I don't know exactly how scheduling works, but if you ever, you know, want to come back, I think,

Definitely, we can focus a little bit more on what's happened over the last three years. But that's also something that you don't need to do with us. You can definitely do with your therapist. But it just feels to me like something that was pretty significant that we kind of didn't have time for, which is fine. But I would encourage you to continue exploring that with someone. For sure. Sound good? Yeah, absolutely.

All right, good luck to you, man. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Take care, man. Bye. Yeah, you too.