HealthyGamerGG - Couples Counseling w/ @Ludwig and @Squeex

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

Dr. K joins Ludwig and Squeex in the middle of an intense Dark Souls marathon to unpack a growing tension that goes beyond the game. What starts as frustration over skill differences quickly turns into a deeper conversation about resentment, competition, validation, and what happens when collaboration turns into comparison. As the conversation unfolds, Dr. K walks them through real relationship dynamics in real time. They explore how cycles of blame form, why arguing over who is “right” often makes things worse, and how resentment quietly builds when people feel unheard or undervalued. The episode becomes a live breakdown of how to move from winning arguments to actually repairing trust. Topics include: Why focusing on “the truth” can damage relationships How resentment builds between teammates and collaborators Competition vs cooperation in close partnerships Feeling respected versus feeling understood Why validation matters more than being right Breaking cycles of blame and escalation How to repair tension without keeping score HG Coaching : https://bit.ly/46bIkdo Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health: https://bit.ly/44z3Szt HG Memberships : https://bit.ly/3TNoMVf Products & Services : https://bit.ly/44kz7x0 HealthyGamer.GG: https://bit.ly/3ZOopgQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, chat, welcome to the Healthy Gamer Gigi podcast. I'm Dr. Alok Knoja, but you can call me Dr. K. I'm a psychiatrist, gamer, and co-founder of Healthy Gamer. On this podcast, we explore mental health and life in the digital age, breaking down big ideas to help you better understand yourself and the world around you. So let's dive right in. Welcome to a Healthy Gamer Gigi stream. My name is Dr. Aalok Kanoja.

Just a reminder that although I'm a psychiatrist, nothing we discussed on stream today is intended to be taken. as medical advice. Everything is for educational or entertainment purposes only, especially true. I noticed that the title of today's stream is couples counseling with Ludwig and Squeaks.

We're going to help them with some communication issues, presumably. But just to be clear, we are not doing real couples counseling. This is not the delivery of psychotherapy on the internet. This is talking to two dudes who I think are doing a gaming marathon

and we'll see what comes of it. Before we hop into stream with this, them, we have a quick announcement. So we have a promotion going on that lasts until December 31st. There's a command for exclamation point A.O.E. Healer. So for those of y'all that aren't aware, we've been doing a membership here at HG for the last two years. So we have hundreds of hours of additional content. This is oftentimes our deep dive content. So we'll have deep dives into things like ego, emotions, like what is anger? Where does it come from? How to deal with it? What is

sadness? Where does it come from? How to deal with it? What is shame? Where does it come from? How to deal with it? And we moved a couple of those lectures over to the main channel that are available for free, which is a basically the members will sometimes decide. They're like, hey, this lecture is great. Can you guys post it on the main channel? So you guys can check it out there. But there's a, you can basically get a discount for the whole year that's available before December 31st. And you can use the command exclamation point AEOE healer to get more info. And for those of y'all that have signed up, thank you very much for the support. We really appreciate it.

We're building some really cool stuff thanks to your support. And here on the channel, we don't oftentimes take sponsorships and things like that. We would just rather build stuff that is helpful to you and then have a direct relationship. We also don't do things like sub-athons or donation drives and things like that. So if you guys, we want to, we would appreciate it if you guys financially support us. And also, we want to give you some value for that support. That being said, anything y'all want to give is always appreciated. So let's see if we can hop in.

Let's see if these guys are ready. How are y'all doing, chat, while we're waiting? I don't know exactly what to expect from this. Do you guys know? Can you all tell me how things are going for them? Are they doing well, not doing well? What's the deal? Squeaks, dreams of hair like mine?

Hopefully that doesn't cause a problem. You know, it's really interesting. Sometimes, can I just tell you all something kind of random while we're waiting? That's actually something that is very, very, very under-discussed. So I've done couples counseling a little bit. one of the things that is so hard about couples counseling is there are many times where there's something called erotic transference towards the therapist. So erotic transference is when you basically start to develop romantic feelings towards

your therapist. And it's really common because romantic feelings are oftentimes bundled with emotional intimacy. Right. So this is where like if we're friends with best, benefits and we start, you know, doing things, then that sometimes gets bundled with catching feelings, but it can go the other way, too, where if you start developing emotional intimacy with someone, you can start to become physically attracted to them. We see that all the time in couples counseling. One of the hardest things about couples counseling is oftentimes

the person who is of the gender of the therapist can feel threatened by the therapist. So imagine this scenario. We're coming in a couple's counseling because there's a husband and a wife, and we're sort of assuming heteronormative, and you have yours truly as your couple's therapist. So what happens is the woman is complaining about, oh, he doesn't listen to me, and he doesn't understand me, and he doesn't understand what my perspective is, and then along comes this. And then there I am in the room, reflectively listening, trying to get her to articulate her issues. And then what happens is the dude starts to feel threatened because, oh shit, here she is complaining about how I never listen, and here's this guy

who is doing such a good job listening. And then oftentimes we'll see it the other way around as well with female therapists and male patients, where the female therapist may be a little bit more put together, is so understanding. And then one of the partners feels very threatened by the therapist. That's one thing that we see a lot. another thing that we see a lot is feeling threatened for other reasons, which is oftentimes when you go to couples therapy, it's very common for one partner to feel like the therapist is on one person's side, which is really not their job. The other thing about couples therapy is that it is not their job to keep you together. It is the job of the therapist to determine to help the two of you figure out what is the healthiest outcome for your relationship. So sometimes that means amicable separation, right?

Amicability is what we're really shooting for, not necessarily trying to keep you all together at all costs, because sometimes that's not actually healthy. Yeah, they need to go to a less attractive therapist then. Yes. So let me ask you all a question while we're waiting. So what do you all think determines what you're attracted to? Hmm? Okay. So, yeah, it depends on the person. Let's start with wrong answers. Hormones.

Okay, so I want you all to understand something. So I assume you mean like your hormones, but your hormones are relatively constant, right? You're surrounded by people. Yeah, this is pretty good. Familiarity, feeling safe, formative, yeah, this is all good. you guys are, you're all, you're all actually really, really, really good at this. Someone who cares about you and who you care for genuinely. So that's what I like about this question. So that's right. But what determines your perception of someone's caring?

So the really scary thing, you know what I think is hilarious? Is when it comes to who we're attracted to, we trust our mind. So I want you all to think about this for a second. When your mind is attracted to a particular food, do we say, oh my God, I should just eat this food? This is it. I'm going to live my life. I'm going to just eat this food. The best thing for me is to eat this food that I'm attracted to.

When it comes to the activities that we do, oh my God, I just feel my mind is so attracted to spending six hours on my phone or playing video games or binge watching stranger things. Take your pick. Playing Expedition 33. Oh, here we go. And we just listen to it. But when it comes to attraction, so our mind is wrong about those things. You mute your own.

But when it comes to attraction, it's like, oh, suddenly we've got to listen to it. Hold on, let me fix this up. You guys ever noticed that? Hello. Are we doing, do you all have one camera or two? We got one camera for the both of us. I'll throw it on for you.

Okay, let's go. We look good. Oh. Wait one second. I'm getting better at my job every day. Okay. Count to 10 for me while we're waiting. We can count 10th, 1.

1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Okay. We'll get it. How are y'all doing? Oh, man. The spirits are so freaking high here, Dr. 10. We are so tired. We're in the middle of our marathon.

But we're doing all right. How about you? I'm doing well, man. Spirits are actually high over here. Yeah. Oh, my God. Hi. You guys look so unhealthy.

Like, you all look. What are you all doing to yourselves? Well, we're playing. Every single Dark Souls in one stream with the goal of beating them all within one week. Okay, I'm going to, can y'all scoot closer together? I can't see both y'all in my, yeah, have, have, have, no, Ludwig needs to move closer to squeaks. Oh, okay. All right. I'm going to come over to, there we go. Perfect. No, no, no, we don't want him to move out. Oh, you want us very centered. Yeah, there we go. Perfect. Just like that, just like that, just like that, just like that. Okay.

Yeah, so y'all are playing through all of the Dark Souls? Yeah, in one stream, and we have to beat them all in a week. And are you all sleeping? Yeah. Are you all eating? Yeah. We sleep, yeah. We actually, honestly, maybe a bit too much.

I gained a bit of weight, I think, already this marathon. So help me understand what a day looks like for the two of you. Well, we wake up at the last one. And then I say, Letoieg, can we please don't want to walk? Can we please get... And he says, no, sorry, we have to go live because we have to beat Dark Souls. And then I sit down, usually a little after Lettweig, give them drinking water, get a shower, and then we get started to play Dark Souls, and that's the entire day.

It's okay. We just stay here, but... And so you guys are playing through all of the Dark Souls and DLCs? I don't hear Ludwig. I was hearing you guys. Hey, can you hear me now? Oh my God. That's so much better.

Hold on. Yeah, I think I was on the wrong mic. Yep. Sounds about right. Count to 10 for me. One, two, three, four. Okay, so you guys are playing through Dark Souls. And have y'all played Dark Souls before?

Yeah, it's a good question. I played Dark Souls 1 and 3, never 2. I played one and never 2 and 3. Okay, so y'all are familiar with the game. I would say yeah. I would say I'm more familiar than Ludwig. I would say, I mean, we're both familiar to. He didn't ask who's more. Right, right. Just say I'm familiar with Marksles is crazy after some of the atrocities. Familiar. Like, familiar is not like, oh, you've seen a trailer? What do you mean? That would make you somewhat

familiar. Are you all, are y'all, are you all meming right now? Are you guys trying to be entertaining in this moment? Like, it's a genuine question. So I, I, I want to, to just share with you all what my experience of this is. We enter the stream, okay? I'm asking y'all a couple of questions. Things are like relatively chill. Y'all are sort of answering questions. You change your mic, and then I ask you, are you familiar?

And there's this just this burst of emotional energy. You guys are laughing and also getting angry with each other. You guys, like notice how that turned on like a switch? Yeah. And so you guys, you were back to the other way. now. Well, I think it's been our life for four days. Okay. Days are kind of blending together for me. Yeah. So what do you all want to talk about today? Well, I think you saw a clip. Yes. And it involves me throwing a controller. And then I think you said something to the degree of

these guys need help. Oh, these guys need help. Yeah, they need a third person to end. Enter the Dark Souls and do what's that. That's that serpent place in Dark Souls 1, right? That was the clip that I saw. It was like you were running, you were running through. Black Gulch. Yeah, Black Gulch. Black Gulch, too.

Yeah, that was Black Colch's, okay. I thought it was like that serpent fortress in DS1, but okay, you guys were playing scholar of the first sin. That's the one. Wait, you play Dark Souls as well? Oh, yeah. Oh, have you played the DLCs? Not so much.

So I have dabbled with some of the DLCs, but I tend to find that the DLCs just have a lot of like Rote programming that you need to learn. Right? So it's just you have to spend hours like learning a move set. And at that point, I don't think it's like a good investment of my time. Because it's just like,

there's a high density of bosses, which is really cool from a content perspective. But it's also like it's just learning this crazy move set. Yeah. I would also agree that what we're doing is not a good investment of time. Why would you say that? Hey, y'all. Just a reminder that in addition to these awesome videos, we have a ton of tools and resources

to help you grow and overcome the challenges that you face. We've got things like Dr. K's Guide to Mental Health, personalized coaching programs, and things like free community events and other sorts of tools to help you no matter where you are on your mental health journey. So check out the link in the description below and back to the video. It's been a bit hard, I guess. What's been hard about it? I feel like a fat low cow.

Okay. Is that funny? Squeaks, we got to get you on Cambrose. You got to rotate the other way. Apparently the one guy. Apparently one guy is pretty funny. What's? So once again, I'm going to ask again, are you genuinely feeling that way?

Or is that like a joke? Or is it both? And I don't even know how to answer that because it's all blended together. You clip farm so much, you become the rage bait. What does that mean? I didn't really figure that part out yet. Okay. That sounds like a profound statement generated by an AI.

Yeah. Sorry. So you're on his side. You guys see what happened? Okay, very good. See what is. I'm curious, Squeaks. What are you experiencing right now?

I'm having the time of my life, Doctor, Ken. I've been really enjoying the marathon. It's been really fun. We beat a lot of the bosses that I thought were going to give us more difficulty, but we're able to persevere. And I feel very happy with the way I've been playing. and I, you know, I just want, I'm glad you're here, Dr. Kay, to help my boy Luddy out with how he's feeling. Because, you know, it's a fun thing that we're doing.

Okay. Ludwig, I saw a finger. What is, what was that? I just, did you, did you see it? Did you hear it? Yeah, I heard it. You're the one who needs help and he's having a great time. Yes.

Yeah. And he's been happy with how he's playing. Yep. So what's your experience of this been like? This is great, by the way. You guys, this is actually going to help a lot of people. So thank you both for this. I, I mean, do you ever, do you ever duo?

What does that mean? Do you ever like two team? Like two men something? Like a video game? Yes. Yeah. Or like a marriage? Mostly a marriage.

Or no, a video game. Sorry. A video game. Yes. I will sometimes like just a two-person single-player game. Like I'll do a cue in Dota. You'll do a cue. Okay, that's a good example.

Yeah. You do a cue in Dota and do you usually play with someone higher skill level or a lower skill level? Both. Or is it pretty even? But almost never even. Okay. And do you have a preference, I guess, on whether the person's higher or lower skill level? No.

I think I've discovered this week that I have a preference. What's your preference? That they are as good as me and not a single point better. Okay. What about worse? That'd be fine too. Okay. What bothers you about someone?

What did you discover about yourself? I discovered that, you know, Because Squeaks has played Dark Souls a little more of the mean. You know, he's pretty sharp. Oh, wow, thanks. He also likes Google's what the best weapons are, and it makes him pretty strong. You know, he can... Did you see what you did there, Ludwig?

Huh? Did you see what he did there? Yeah. How did you do? Squeaks? What did I do? Tell them, Squeaks. What you're doing is you are in a way indirectly.

You can't. give me my flowers without, you know, indirectly, you know, taking a jab at me. You're stoking the bear. Okay. So, so hold on a second. I mean, so first thing. Have I stoken the bear? Yeah, right?

So, so why is he better than you? Because he looks shit up online. Not because he figured it out. Thanks for saying it. He's not, he's not actually better than you. He's just, he's just, he's just, he's copying the meta. He's not. Gary.

Yeah, right? Yes. Does he also look up How to not screw up Questlines in Dark Souls? He, well, he doesn't look up how to You know, okay, let me back up See what I'm dealing with you? No, because you're right. He's right. You're both right.

He is better than me. Even if he didn't Google the strongest weapon in every game, he would still be better. How does that make you feel? Honestly, I was happy with it. I was happy with the arrangement. I was ready to be the passenger princess and be carried to Dark Souls royalty.

But he also likes letting you know. Can I butt in here? Sure. I don't. But what I found, Dr. Kay, is Ludwig will put me down when, you know, as he said, I have more experience with Dark Souls. You could say it's because I Google stuff. So when Ludwig puts me down because of his frustration with the game,

then I feel the need to counter stoke the bear and be like Ludwig, how could you be saying these things like insulting me when like I'm trying to help us get, you know, because we have a goal here, you know, to beat all the Dark Souls in seven days. So like we got to like really shape up. So that's how I feel.

It's like it's not me really starting the, I'm better than you, follow me, do this. In fact, Ludwig has beat me in one V1s almost every day and is the captain. and I will, you know, bend over backwards to make sure, you know, he respects in Darkswells do. Like, he started out with a build he didn't like. So I was happy to stop doing what we were doing.

We were like, we had to change his build and stuff like that. But I find it that when Ludwig, even though we're going through all these things, is still, you know, unhappy. I find that to be very, very annoying. Okay. I'm going to pause for a second. So, I want to. want to just set the frame. So like this was something that I, this is a collab, right? We're not really doing, y'all are not a

couple. We're not doing psychotherapy. But, well, but, but we should. Okay. So, so I was really confused about this coming in because I was like, I'm not sure if this is like a meme and you guys are pretending. What I think is really fascinating about this is that I think a lot of what people need to learn as duos, let's say, is like, I think there's a lot of realness to y'all's frustration. There's a lot of like legitimacy. So I want to just point out like one thing that I'm seeing right now. So Ludwig has a concern, right? He's like, okay, sure, I understand Squeaks is more familiar with it.

He's better. But, and you were actually okay with that. So at one point you said you don't like that, right? And then later you said, I was actually okay being the passenger princess. But then he likes to let me know. Right? He's got to kind of shove it in your face. And then Squeaks is like, but hold on a second.

The reason I shove it in your face is because of the way that you put me down when I do a good job. Do you guys catch that? So that dynamic is really common of like, I want you all to notice that there's a cycle here. Now, Squeaks is saying he started it. But I'm sure if we asked Ludwig, what would Ludwig say? Who starts it? Actually, and that's a good thing, because he did start it. Okay.

Right. So now we get to the most dangerous word in couples counseling. Actually. Divorce. No, actually. Okay. Right? Actually.

Yeah. Can you all think about that for a second? What's the problem with that word? I would think if you say like, oh, actually, you know, what happened is that every time I fall off the map, he goes leaping Lutty and, and, you know, he makes fun of me for that way before he even had a chance. And so if I'm starting to engage in that, I'm diminishing what he feels happened for what the truth is. Okay. Squeaks. You don't have to comment, but I just want to give you some space if you...

No, I think I think Ludwig's right. Okay, so let's talk for a second about this. The truth versus what he thinks happened. Right? So like both of y'all, there's something that's very important to understand. We're going to leave truth far behind. If you want to have a successful relationship, truth is like third or fourth on the list.

Because you think something actually happened. Squeaks, is Ludwig correct about what actually happened that you started it? No. No, he's not correct. So now what do we do? Right? So even if we go to evidence, one of y'all is right and one of y'all is wrong.

But if one of y'all gets proven right and one of y'all gets proven wrong, what happens to your relationship? It's not like a- I'll never talk to him again. I can never see it. I can never look at him again. But it would probably, it would probably distract from the point, though. Like if you were to, if we were to have a court and we were to bring in the evidence, which everything's on camera, and you were to find the first person to cast the first stone, you know, I think you, you'd probably lose the relationship in the search for truth.

Very good. But I'd also be vindicated. So. Very good. You know what's crazy? First of all, I'd be vindicated. That's all right. But second of all,

like, this is the first time Ludwig has ever said that I'm better than him at Dark Souls. By the way, Dr. Kay. He's never said this. How does that make you feel? Well, it makes me feel good for some, you know, that's sweet. we've we've collabed a lot in the past where ludwig has been better and ludwig would you say that you have rubbed that in my face every second every time we you know hang out and get dinner and stuff would you remember mario party or super maria 64 you'd say you haven't gotten a sub 50 i think it's it's happened so i'm just saying like you know that we are we we we're sort of share that toxic trait perhaps and maybe that's why we understand each other.

What do you think, Ludwig? You know, there's a third party in our relationship. Okay. Chat. Okay. And I feel like chat and squeaks. Because you're right, I do do that. Yeah.

But when they're always there, you're always live. you know, like I was running a mage build in Dark Souls 2. Okay. And, you know, so they'd be like, oh, the tickle mage is here. The ticklemage is going to do five damage. That's what they called me. So they would call me the tickleby. Because I wouldn't do that much damage.

So it would be equivalent to me tickling the boss. Okay. And you know, and then you have in, they would say, Squeaks is dealing dick because he would do big damage because he's using the the rapier. Yeah. And that's a very strong weapon. And so, you know, it's like, but he's feeding into, like, he really likes, you know, those comments.

So he's really feeding into it. And so then at a certain point, you know, I crack. Okay. And then I, you know, and then I'm, I'm trying to bring him down to my level because I can't get up to his. Okay. So I'm going to ask y'all, how, how, truthful are y'all being right now when i threw my controller in black gulch i was mad okay and i think the maddest he was at me was when we were in dragon lake and he moved on ahead without me and i refused to go up to

him okay when was this this is yesterday when i was killing myself over and over for twinkling tight nights oh yeah that was very frustrated you ran all the way ahead i did i did and but i and at that moment And I was like, Ludd, do you want me to come back and help you clear the mob so you can get here? Remember? And you said, no, I'm a fat lolcal. I'm a fat chungis. That's what you said. Yeah.

You said, no, let me be leap and luddy. And I said, no, dude, I'm happy to come back. I was just fat low cowl, don't come back for me. I'll just slug my way on up. So I was like, oh. You already ran up. Like, what are you caring out? Like, what are you pretending to care now?

It's not, I didn't run up as a slight to you. I ran up because I thought I could get to a bonfire or something that you can teleport to. You lost your kid. the mall, let him be fucking lost. It's like he'll figure it out. Right, but the analogy doesn't work because you're not a kid. You are... The way I tickle the enemies...

Okay. We just heard a couple of actuallys from Squeaks. Oh, yeah, sorry. Right? So, so... Yeah. Okay, so this is... So this is what's, like, fascinating about this.

It's like, I get the impression that this is a meme but there's like it tries you guys. I know I know y'all are trying to be entertaining. But I think y'all have figured this out as well. I think all three of us actually are good at being entertaining and being authentic. And I think y'all are authentic and you're entertaining. Do you guys get that? Like there's a certain, this is way more real than I was expecting it to be.

Do you all feel that as well? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So this is going to be the hard. thing. We're going to speed run this because we need to teach all a couple of things about managing a relationship. And normally this would, you know, if I was actually your couple's therapist, we would do this over the course of 12 weeks so that we could get to know each other.

And I want to have to call y'all out and blame you as much as I'm going to. But I'm, I'm going to do that and I'm signaling that to you. If that becomes a problem, will you let me know if you feel like I'm kind of ganging up on one of you? Like, if you feel ganged up on by me, like I'm pointing out to actually not because squeaks is worse, but because we're going to learn one thing today, which is like actually kills relationships. I'm okay with that. Yeah, that works.

Okay, so I want, we're going to replay this a second. So squeaks run, and the truth, so lesson number one actually kills relationships. Lesson number two, truth is not as important as feelings. okay because the goal here is to improve the relationship and like this is what's really weird like i don't know if you guys get this and this is maybe a conversation for a different day which is like the truth that our mind perceives is more influenced by feeling than it is by truth does that make sense i think it does make sense yeah right so that that's why like arguing

over the truth i don't think advances the relationship they're they're values used to it, but we have to deal with feelings first. Y'all got to get on the same team before you start talking about truth. So we're going to try this again. So there was a situation in which Squeaks moved on

and you were wiping on twinkling tight nights or trying to farm twinkling tight nights, right? Yeah. And then Squeaks is like, okay, I'll come back for you. And then Ludwig is like said what exactly again? No.

It's okay. I'm a fat low cow. I'll stay here and slug on. Okay. And and and how did you respond to that squeaks? I said. Well, I was just, oh yeah, go ahead. Okay. So what was your not what you said? What was your reaction when he said that? Like not like what was your internal reaction when Ludwig says, I'm a fat law cow. What happens inside of you? I was feeling frustrated because he said that. What was frustrating about that to you? What was frustrating was I would love to help him, like, do what his goal was. But I felt left out. Okay, very good. So when you try to help him, how does he respond? I don't want to cast any judgment, but it feels like he responds in also in an unappreciative.

and like he he responds poorly okay okay good and it is how I feel this is fucking wild because this I really think

could be one of the best streams that I ever do and could like we ever do like this could actually help a ton of people so when he tries to help you

he's like bro let me come back for you what's your what's your reaction Ludwig well okay slap me in the face then give me a cookie Like, what are we doing here?

You know, it's very good. Because I'm Player 2. And let me give, so Dark Souls 2 has a seamless co-op mod made by Ui, but it's not finished. So Player 2 is like really little brother. You know, it's like at points, your controller's not even plugged in because like, player 1 has to operate most of the mechanics. And you're never allowed to switch because of the way the mod is. So like, you know, I can't teleport where I want to teleport.

He has to sit at the bonfires first. He has to activate the cutscenes. He has to. if he kills a boss and I'm not there, I don't even get the souls for it. And there's no way to get him back. So it's like, it can be quite little brotherish. So it's like I feel like,

I feel like we're walking a dragon lake. And it's like, boom, boom, tickle mage. Tickle mate, you're a pussy. And then he runs off ahead to do his thing. And I'm like, maybe I'll find more peace if I just do it at my own pace. And I don't have to try to run and keep up with big bro. Okay. So, so I'm going to ask Squeaks a question.

So, so I, I want you all to first notice your faces. What do you all see? Don't make that. What? He's making a face to make me laugh, dude. A little bit, but, but, but it, I was looking at you, I didn't see his face. In, in, in the second, okay, so that's okay. I think, I think, I think chat will notice. So I think, do you all, this feels emotionally different to me than it did like even five minutes ago. You guys see how like we're working on stuff now? Like you sort of feel that or not so much? There's more tension.

There's more tension to you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. If it feels like more tension to you, that's okay. I feel like there's less. So the really interesting thing is y'all are, you all have stopped actually. You're just talking about your experience.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. So. There's feelings. Very good, right? And I'm not asking you how you feel. I asked once or talking.

twice, but I'm not asking you how you feel. Now y'all are talking about it spontaneously. So now we're going to do something really cool. So Squeaks, I want you to imagine that you're a little brother. Okay? Imagine your little brother, and Big Brother leaves you behind. And then Big Brother, from a place of on high, extends a hand down. Oh, let me help you, little brother.

How do you think that's going to make little brother feel? Less than. It would make little brother feel inferior. Right? Mm-hmm. And so what are you understanding about Ludwig's situation now? I understand that he would feel small, like a fat lull cow. That's how he put it.

Right. No, completely. I understand that feeling, for sure. Yep. And this is going to be hard now, okay? So now we're going to do a hard question for squeaks. How do you imagine Ludwig feels hearing you? say that he feels vindicated and you know not in a negative way but he feels no you know he

hears me yeah right so so i i don't know ludwig did you do you remember your reaction when squeaks was saying that uh like just now yeah yeah what was it i'm uh it was a dark thought i don't feel like i should say okay okay that's fine that's okay that's okay But, no, look at me with that. Okay, that's okay. I was thinking I was winning, which was maybe a bad thought. No, it's very good. Excellent.

Next level. So now, this is important. Okay, no, this is fucking beautiful. Oh, my God. I'm winning couples counseling. Very good. If my patience had as much insight as you all had, like, we would be done in like two weeks. Because here's the interesting thing that happened.

I want you all to notice this, right? Squeaks. why would Ludwig feel like he's winning? What happened just now? We made progress, but at the cost of who? At me? Very good.

And I'm feeling, now I'm feeling to revert back to, well, here's why you're wrong. Very good. Excellent. You guys see what happened? The moment that one of y'all makes progress, now one of y'all is winning

and one of y'all is losing. So the only way to fix this is now on you, Ludwig. You can choose to win and then Squeaks will lose. Or y'all can heal. Right? So Squeaks did something. What did Squeaks do?

Squeaks gave up. Like, in the sense that like, like he gave up his point that he had earlier that he was, you know, attached to you and acknowledged. Oh, all right, very good. He didn't give up. He acknowledged. Yes.

You felt vindicated. You also felt understood. Mm-hmm. So this is a critical moment where he has done something, he has made a particular move. And the way that you respond to that move is going to determine so much. I feel like I'm on the high ground and I can pull him up to me or say, check who's on the high ground, bitch. Very good.

And then be alone on the high ground. Good. So which one do you want to do? Honestly, it's pretty close, but I would rather pull him up. because I know what will happen if I don't. Okay. What would happen? I think then you'll want to pull me off the high ground and we'll go back to the same cycle.

So, you know, even though it maybe feels a little good that, you know, I was a bit vindicated. Like it's true that you can't control that you're player one. Okay. I think you were just exploring at your own pace. Now we're going to sabotage just a touch, okay? So Squeaks, how did it feel to hear his reasoning for pulling you up to the high ground? Bad. Very good.

What felt bad about it? Well, it's funny because now the rules have switched where in metaphorically, symbolically, he's going ahead and I'm farming metaphoric tight night charred. And he's like, you know what, little bro, I will carry you forward so we can both be in the same condescending way. It's how I feel. Okay. Ludwig, how does that, what do you think about what Squeak said? Yeah, I think it's reasonable. Right?

So I would even say it's a little bit different. So I think that you, your reasoning is like, was, and so we're speed running this. So my bad and let me know if you feel like I'm gang up on you. So you've got, you want to pull him up. Fair enough. So it's great. Y'all are fucking God tier gamers. So even in the game of couples counseling, you guys see how you're like, you're noticing

meta. You're like noticing move sets. This is actually brilliant. Like, it's brilliant. But the reason that you're pulling him up is because if you don't, then things will go bad. It's not because you care about him. It's not because you want him on the high ground with you. No, I mean, I still think, I still think, you know, I think I'm being maybe extra honest. Maybe I, but I don't think I should keep it to myself. I think I should say that's how I felt in the moment. And I think I'm still holding on to some of the tension. It's like, yeah, I still. I still do want to prove to big bro that I can, you know, be equal or better or on top of him. Yeah.

So, what, so Squeaks, now that you've heard him say that, now that we've done this exchange, right? So, so if I was not being, so I'm trying to bring the negativity to the surface. So we could have kind of left it there. I could have asked a different question. I could have asked Ludwig, instead of asking him why he feels like he wants to bring you to the high ground, I could have just said, how are you going to bring him to the high ground?

And then he would have said something, and then Squeaks would have felt good, right? Mm-hmm. You guys with me, but we're not going to do that. We're not going to fix this. We're going to bring the shit up. Mm-hmm. So now you've heard Ludwig say,

basically what I heard is he's got resentment. Yep. That's what makes it hard for him to really care about you. Sure. Ludwig, is that fair? Yeah, I think I have a chip on my shoulder. Yeah, so what are we going to do about that? And I mean, we is a we, like all three of us.

Are you asking, well, if it's all three of us, what do you think? I think you're going to have to let the resentment go. Squeaks, I think, can help you some with that. the most important thing that he can do is not sabotage your effort right so he he went out on a limb and he was like i i did something i understand his his viewpoint you felt vindicated i think the the flip side of that vindicate is you felt understood but now he's like he's taken a step forward right he's helped elevate you to the high ground and it's good that you're acknowledging that you still feel some degree of resentment and you're kind of like and i'm going to use a judgmental

where you're a little bit selfish about it, but that's what it is. So now I sort of feel like the ball is in your court. It doesn't necessarily have to be. But I think I want you to imagine if Squeaks has to do it again, what is he going to start to feel? Let's say you don't let go of that resentment. You don't elevate him. And then in order for the relationship to move forward,

like Squeaks has to do it a second time. You guys get what I'm saying? Then how is he going to feel? He's going to feel pretty bad. What is the character of the badness? I think he would feel like... I'll give you... Okay, go ahead.

Well, I'd imagine if he keeps trying to like pull me up and I'm... Maybe my motives or my intense or my response to that is negative. He's going to feel like why the hell am I even doing this? Very good. So what is he going to start to feel more and more of? Resentment. Very good. Interesting, huh? But I would pass my resentment onto him.

Exactly. Then I would have none. Very good. That's what we think. Then I would have all your resentment. Yeah. Right? And if he had all of his resentment, if he had all of your resentment, Ludwig, how would you feel? How would I feel?

Yeah. Because that's what you're doing. You see how what you're doing. It's interesting. You feel resentment. And you're like behaving in a way. to make him feel resentment? How would you feel once you succeed? I wouldn't, I don't think I would feel good because I think it would hurt our relationship,

but I think he would start speaking even worse to me. Yeah, so that would absolutely happen. I think you would feel a sense of justice. I think if he had resentment and I didn't, I don't think I'd feel justice. I think I want to feel resentment while he also feels resentment. Okay.

To achieve justice. Okay. Okay. Squeaks, you've been... Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. But... But I think, you know, equal, like, being equal, like either having no resentment for each of us would be justice or us both having resentment would be justice. But if one has resentment and the other doesn't, that's not justice.

Okay. Squeaks, you've been pensive for a five second? Yeah, this is... So I agree with what Ludwig's saying, but what I'm feeling and hearing is Ludwig unable to diffuse. Like, I don't know what to do differently. Like, I feel like this is Ludwig's work to do in this sense. Like, I'm willing to listen and understand, but what I've been disappointed with listening to Ludwig is he is unable to extend the hand back. and it's you know so that's why i'm being very pensive and quiet because i feel like i have

nothing to add um right now okay what do you think about i think you can add i think i think there's something to add actually there is something to add i think there is and that wasn't actually neat huh so i'm sorry for actually yeah yeah yeah yeah it yeah it yeah it Is he still ongoing? I can't tell. I don't know. Are you actually sorry? Yeah, I should have phrased it differently when it came out my mouth.

I wish it didn't. Okay. But it's still ongoing, which is why I was, that's what I was thinking about. Like, it's not over, it's not like an over saga that we're working through. It's not like Dark Souls is done. Sure. It's never going to happen again. It's still happening.

Okay. So what? And will the new challenge is it's resurfacing a lot of these feelings. Like I'm even actively thinking of it right now, to be honest. What are you thinking of right now? Do you know what an SL1 run is? Soul level one? Yeah.

Yeah. So I had an idea to do a soul level one run for Dark Souls. Okay. Okay. And I don't know if you just heard him. He basically said, thank you in that lap. because he's very against this idea okay but you know is like signed up to do it but I feel like he signed up to do it so then in the same way when a dog shits on the

floor he can grab the dog and be like look at the shit that you put on the floor because he knows that failure is coming or anticipates it and and is waiting for me to see the shit that we're making. I actually agree with what Ludwig just said, but I would like to add my own perspective of it, which was we initially planned to beat Dark Souls 3, like without a Soul Level 1. And when, you know, Ludwig goes like, oh, we're pretty, we're actually cruising through this. Let's add an additional challenge, Soul Level 1. And what I said was, oh, I'm not sure that's feasible to do, given, you know, I don't think I'm good enough for a Soul Level 1 run myself either.

So I was like, oh, I'm not sure if that's feasible, but Ludwig was, you know, said, no, we should do it. We have to do it. And I felt a little railroaded in that moment with someone who maybe isn't familiar with Soul Level 1 runs. But that was my perspective coming into it. But I'm happy to do it. If Ludwig is adamant to do it, I said, you know, we'll give it a shot. We'll try. So, yeah.

So then here we are And where is that? We just beat The tree The tree boss with the balls. Do you remember? It's in the very beginning. Pustules, maybe. It's an optional boss, but we're about

5% in the game. In DS3? In DS3, yeah. Yeah, we took the banner and flew. Okay. It's been a while. So where do you all feel like y'all are in this

conversation right now. Let's start with where each of you is. I think I'm happy to admit and acknowledge that Squeaks is a great Dark Souls player and I'm not. And I think I lean on him and I appreciate that, you know, you're strong shoulder to lean on. But I don't want Dark Souls 3. to be either scenario one we cruise through it because we have the strong like basically the same experience we had the first two because it's a little bit of a you know yellow brick roadwalk or two i'm running head first into a brick wall and he's standing behind me like yep let's run and

let's run and waiting for me to smash my face so i what do you mean by that what does that mean Like, the only reason I agree to do it is because we asked an expert. And they said it was possible. But, you know, I don't want to feel like, you know, we're about to, you're about to hit the three sisters of Godfreyed. And you're sitting there going, and you don't like, because you know that like there's no change. Because I don't know because I've never been here. And that, and then you just watch me slowly.

get mentally destroyed until I'm at a weak sad state and then I give up. Okay. Which I feel like is what you're expecting to happen. You just don't know when it'll happen. Yeah, but my response to that is I can't help that that's how I feel. That is how I feel. I do feel SL1 is not, we're not able to do it. If it was just me and you and the world was full of zombies, maybe there's be no way we could make it out.

but I'd want to fight every last second with you. Okay. I agree, but I, and I think we can make it in a world for the zombies, but if we were SL1 in a world full of zombies, I'd say, brother, let's just enjoy our last fucking moments here, bro. Like, we're not going to do it. Okay. This really blows my mind.

So I want like 15 to 20 minutes at the end, if that's okay. Like I've got a set of talking points, which is like, it's amazing me how much you all are like speed running, real relationship patterns. So we had asked Ludwig how he was feeling or where he was. Where are you in the conversation right now? Squeaks. I feel like we're in a really great spot in the conversation, to be honest. I feel like I've never heard Ludwig acknowledge that I'm the shoulder he's leaning on in terms of Dark Souls. I've never, I don't even feel, and to be honest, I don't even feel like I'm better than Ludwig at Dark Souls.

Like, truly, I don't feel that way. I just think I have more experience in the game. So I know, like, the skill isn't there, is just the experience. But I feel like just erring out, you know, how we're feeling in certain situations. It's been very helpful. Okay. Yeah. So this is the point where, like, there's sort of fork in the road for me.

I'm going to go down a positive road here. So tell me a little bit more about why you don't feel like Ludwig is inferior to you. What makes you feel that way? Because Ludwig's right. Like, I Googled the best weapon of Darsels 2. I looked up a YouTube guide of, like, what armor to get. And the only reason for Dark Souls 2 that I was so ahead was due to my, the experience of looking up, you know, what the optimal build is and stuff. Okay.

I'm Googling Gary. So when I hear Ludwig saying, oh, you're so much better than me, I've, in my head, I'm like, no, I'm not. I don't feel that. Yeah. I googled what the best magic spell was. and didn't fucking help. I died 50 more times than you in Dark Souls 2, Allah. I didn't Google and Dark Souls 1,

but, you know, seeing how powerful you were, I thought I'd join in to Google and Gary fun. And didn't help. What made you want to interrupt him, Ludwig? I know you guys are trying to be, but this is so real. Because he's sitting there and he's, I feel like

you know maybe he believes that all of his success or skills is because of Googling maybe he believes it partially maybe he doesn't believe it at all but I know that it's not true because I'm walking evidence

of the contrary you know a Googling gary's can fail it's not like you Google and you're great at Dark Souls hold on a second not all Googling gary's fail right?

Yes some Googling gary succeed it's not from the Google and Right. It's from Gary. Very good. And so I don't like listening to him sit there saying, oh, I Googled and that's why I'm, you know, I did well. No, because I Googled.

Okay. I googled. I didn't know you Googled. I didn't tell my Googles. So this is where it's going to be a bit hard. So we could go down the path of Googling, but we're going to try a harder thing right now. So, so I, I want you to notice Ludwig. So Squeaks was expressing what about you?

What was he trying to express? I think he was trying to express that, you know, we aren't on such a different playing field. And I think like we're both, um, a similar skill level. I'm just maybe a bit more delusional in what's feasible to do. Okay. So I don't, that's not what I heard. What I heard was him, I mean, sort of. So the delusional part I think is the, the key thing that I would kind of disagree with. I heard him trying to express respect for you. Right? In his mind, the differences experience. It's not, it's not that he's fundamentally, it's not Gary, it's the Googling. So, so what makes it hard for you?

you to receive or hear that it's like it's like hearing w w w w uwe's fake for the first time you know it's like this is like this is big bro over here you know and like i i think i've constantly taken some jabs at him over years about being better than him at xyz game but that's because he's a real genuine gamer so it's like if i'm able to get something over him to me that's a pretty big achievement because, you know, he's global elite in counterstrike. It's pretty hard to do, Dr. Kay. Okay. He's got like a 50-minute 70-star time.

So, like, for me, I don't feel like I've earned that respect yet, and I think I need to earn it. I can't just be, you know, I googled where the same. Who, whose respect do you need to earn? Cookies. Squeaks? Whose respect does he need to earn? This episode is brought to you by.

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Head to CarMax.com for details and get pre-qualified today. Want to drive CarMax. You, right? Say that. Extrapolate. Like, I feel the same thing towards Ludwig. Like, I want to earn his respect in terms of gaming. I don't want to drag him down if we're playing together.

Does he have your respect? Squeaks. Does Ludwig have my respect? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, without a doubt in my mind. Whose respect does he not have? His own. Very good.

Ludwig, do you see that? So the reason you can't receive his respect is because lol cow I'm a fat low cow right like that's the way you feel about yourself because I'm leap and luddy I don't know what that

is that like a good thing or a bad thing I jumped off the map a hundred times I didn't know I didn't know right but but but so this is this is kind of challenging right because like he wants to help you but you're like

you reject it And now he's trying to be kind to you and you reject it. Now I'm making a very, very dangerous move, which is here you are thinking you're not good enough. And here I am saying it's your fucking fault. Do you see that? Yeah. Right? So what is it that makes you, what is it that makes you feel like you're not as good as him?

I don't think I ever want to be good enough. What does that mean? I think if I would ever achieve my own respect, I'd be complacent. So I'd like to always chase after maybe it's my own respect. Maybe I materialize it as Squeaks' respect. But I don't want to ever be good enough. How does it make you feel to hear that Squeaks? That's sad.

I feel like that's a sad thing. because I think it's not about respect. I think maybe there's another, like, I feel like there's a conflation between respect and competitiveness, and I don't think that's true, because I think you should find a way to respect yourself and push yourself forward. How does it feel to hear that Squeaks feels sad for you?

It's nice. He's thinking about me. You don't feel angry? No. Good. I'm going to kind of check in with y'all. I know we had sort of slotted in about an hour. We're about 45 minutes in. Where do you all want to take this?

Do you guys want to go a little bit further? Do you want me to explain a couple of things? Do you, like, where are y'all? You want to do more exploration? Do you want to do explanation? Do you want... I actually, I was wondering if we were able to talk about Dark Souls 3 and like how we're going to progress through knowing, like, what tools can you give us for our relationship so that we don't, you know, have a fat lull cow moment or leap in Luddie's moments where, you know, we're not emotionally frustrated with each other.

Like, what are some tools? Okay, great. So then I'm going to do explanations. Perfect. So first thing to understand actually these ruin relationships and they come in all kinds of ways. why do they ruin relationships? Because it's not about what really happened. It's about you're not dealing with what really happened.

What you're dealing with is the other person's perception of what happened. How do you defeat in actually? Great question. So I'll give you all another example. So Ludwig has some degree of dissatisfaction with himself. He has a certain degree of envy. towards squeaks. So I know you guys are really, really, really close friends and y'all love each other very much.

That much is clear. And these feelings can be there. So this may be part of the reason why he puts you down flexes when he's superior. But do you all see how, like, insecurity about yourself and feeling inferior to someone will cause you to do all kinds of things. It'll cause you to flex. It'll cause you to feel resentment when the other person demonstrates their superiority. it'll also cause you to swat away the hand of kindness. Now the problem here is that the way I'm framing things right now, it's Ludwig's fault,

which this particular thing, quote, unquote, is. But make no mistake, if I had y'all for 12 hours across 12 weeks, there'd be all kinds of shit on Squeaks and 2. This is just the first thing, right? we, this is just the first, and we'll get to one of the things that that Squeaks is doing, that's problematic. So, so do you all get that? So second thing is that when the self-loathing is there, he's going to reject your sense of,

of help. So the key thing that you need to do is, is let him wallow. Now we're going to learn a really, really fucking weird, counterintuitive, paradoxical thing about human relationships. I don't know if you'll notice this, but in this relationship, whose job is it to wallow? The wallower.

Very good. Who's the wallower right now? I'm the wallower. And what's at the opposite end of wallowing? Not wallowing. Not wallowing's in the middle. What's the opposite? Of like flexing and being like super,

a beat and smiling and laughing at everything. Oh my God. Yeah, everything is so goofy. Yeah. Who's doing all the laughing? Me. Very good. So as long as, so this is fucking weird.

It's real mind fuck. That like you guys are falling into this dynamic where it is your job to suffer and your job to be upbeat. Not sustainable. And do you guys see how like, this is hard, but do you see how when he laughs all the time, how does it make you feel? Ludwig, can you join him in that? No, it's hard. It's hard to go from wallow to laughter.

And when he's wallowing all the time, can you join him in that? No. So do you all see how, like, you're polarizing? And this happens in relationships. I don't know, I see Squeaks has a ring on his finger. Did you get married? I'm married. Wow.

Okay. Impressed? And, and, uh, impressed? I'm just kidding. Because I remember every time I talk to you, there's a, you're like, oh, I have someone you can talk to. Tell me you didn't marry an Indian girl.

I'm not saying. Is it publicly known? No. Okay, then never mind. Okay. It's all good. All right. So,

so first thing I want to point out to you. So first thing is actually destroy relationships. Second thing to understand is that what happens in, so the relationship has a dynamic of its own. That's not you, that's not him. It is something it is created by two people. And you guys are right now creating this dynamic

where Ludwig is sitting in one chair, the chair of sadness, and Squeaks is sitting in another chair, the chair of like positivity. Have you all seen Ted Lasso? Huh? Oh, I've seen Ted Lasso. I haven't.

Okay. So you know that bus meme? Yeah, I know the bus meme where someone's looking out optimistic and the other person's looking on this. Yeah, so, you know, there's a particular relationship in Ted Lassow, I'm not going to give spoilers, but there's a particular relationship where one person is really happy and the other person is really sad.

You know what I'm talking about, Ludwig? No. Can you just say it? Yeah, it's Ted's relationship. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And so that's one of those things where, like, I saw that and I was like, this shit happens all the time, where when one person is holding all the happiness, there's not room for the

other person to hold the sadness. It's really hard to let go of your position. Okay? this is where one of the key things to do is don't try to fix it. So if you try to become artificially happy, it's not going to work. If you try to pull him out of his sadness, it's not going to work. So the best thing that you can actually do is reflect what they feel, acknowledge what they feel, right? So you guys did that pretty well.

A little bit of vindication, a little bit of understanding. It's not about actually what's right and actually what's wrong. The way to move forward in a relationship is not to art. argue over truth, it is to understand the other person's perspective, no matter how flawed it is. The main thing is that you guys can't fix a relationship if I'm moving from here and you are moving from here, it's never going to work. And everyone thinks that truth is like, if we start from the right spot, then we will end up in the right place.

That's not how it works. The most important thing is to start from the same spot, whether it's right or wrong. right so when squeaks expresses some degree of understanding that okay like i understand how you feel that way like it makes sense to me that's really what y'all need to do so what i would say is the next time that ludwig is feeling inferior you know you sit with that and you ask questions and ludwig you can do that too if he's feeling positive or if you feel like y'all are not meeting on the same side, like ask him for his perspective. And literally we're going to use a technique called reflective listening, which is you just

kind of like reflect back your understanding. The goal here is for you to, for you to at least get his perspective right. You don't have to agree with it. That's what makes this so hard. Right? So I understand squeaks that you're, yeah, go ahead. I'm wallowing. I hear him happy.

I go, what are you so happy about? No. Right. Really? So you don't say it like that. That's not going to work. Okay. Right.

But I do say what's... What are you so happy about? No, nope. What are you so happy about? No, no, no. So I'll give you an example, Ludwig. This is great that you want to try it. So he respects you as a gamer.

Yes. Why don't you repeat back to him what you heard him say about you? What is his understanding of you? Don't add your own. You respect me as a gamer. You think I'm really good at games. Yeah. Why does he think you're good at games?

Because you've watched me for years. I've been impressed. Well, see, you don't know. So now is a great time to ask. It doesn't make sense to you. You don't know why he thinks you're good. Do you think I'm impressive? Yes.

Ask this question. Use what. What? What? What makes you think I'm good at games? I like that. What makes you think I'm good at games? I think whenever you pick up a game,

you learn it faster than I can learn it. For example, you know, like Rage Games specifically, you're very good at those. You know, I'm trying my hardest, and you still usually beat them before me. I think I'm very impressed with your Mario Party mini-game speed run. Do you think I've picked up, like, Counter-Strike pretty fast?

God, no. Sorry. So I can't be honest. That's okay. That's a mistake, but a good one. Right? So what did you? Your question was based on what, Ludwig, was based on your own hypothesis.

You're not hearing what he's saying. You're pointing out the one exception to the rule. Yeah. You see where your mind goes automatically to the self-loathing. I'm trying to find the flaw. You're trying to, you're not trying to understand. You're trying to find the flaw. And as long as you try to fucking find the flaw in your, you're,

partner and why they respect you, your relationship will never work. Think about that. So. Because you can easily find a flaw. You can always, especially when you're, you don't respect yourself. That's why you jump to the one example. The part of you that knows that you suck. You know you suck at Counterstrike because you know he's fucking right about what he said.

He may end up better, but you learn faster. You know that's true, but you can't sit with it. That's hard for you to hear, so you jump to the right thing. So go back. Ask him again, what makes you think I'm good at games? And now listen and then reflect back. What makes you think I'm good at games? Yeah, like I said, you learn games fast, faster than me.

And I think you're, you stick with the game for a long time. And I respect that. Like, you're, you with melee. I think that's really cool. You stuck with it for so long. And that you did so much for the scene. So you think I improve quickly. and I have like a strong loyalty to games.

Yeah. And you respect both those things. Yes. Okay. How do you feel, Ludwig? I didn't know the second part, so that was nice to hear. You guys see the magic that just happened? He has self-loathing, and he responds.

CS-Go. What about Counter-Strike? Your global elite in Counter-Strike. I suck at Counter-Strike. All it takes. So this is the cool thing, Ludwig. if you do this, you're the one that changes. Plus one humanity, I felt it.

Plus one humanity. There we go. Fucking tarnished or what is it? Hollow. That's the problem is he's gone hollow. He's gone hollow. Right? And you can't make him on a hollow.

He has to consume the humanity. Yeah. Right? So this is what's really cool about this, is if you ask, like if you don't understand, If it makes no sense to you, don't go fishing for an answer. Just ask a what question. What makes you think I'm good at games?

And give him a chance because this is beautiful. He's talking about things about you that he respects. That's why he respects you, but that never crossed your mind. He sees he loves you. He sees parts of you that it's hard for you to see. That's what makes a relationship healthy because this other person sees things about you that are really hard for you to see. And as you put yourself in their shoes, you start.

to see those parts of yourself. But the beautiful thing is, remember, it's not about whether those are right or wrong. Now, both of y'all are seeing yourself a particular way. Now, you know, if Squeak says, hey, can I help you with this? It may be hard because there's a lot of habitual thinking, but I think you're one step forward, right? Does that make sense? Okay. So, first thing, actually is ruined relationships. Second thing, try to to understand the other person's perspective. Really try to understand it. You have your own. It's not that yours is right and theirs is wrong. I think both y'all are right and both the all are wrong. But as long as we're not on the same page about where we are in this moment,

never going to work. Okay. Do you all have questions so far? So ask what questions. Is that what you would do if you're calling out in actually? Calling out and actually is like a more tricky thing. So I'm calling out an actually to show y'all. You guys have to experiment with that. The most important thing is you should be calling out actuallys in your own mind. And I want you to... No, you can call them out loud.

But here's the key thing. I want you... And hopefully y'all can imagine this. Maybe you can't. So when you make an actually statement, how does the other person feel? Bad. Very good. Now, so you have something really, really, really cool at your disposal.

If you make an actually statement and you call out your own actual statement, how do you imagine that makes the other person feel? Better because you'd acknowledge that's what you should do. Catch yourself. Catch yourself, right? So you're noticing, hey, like, I just made an actually statement, my bad, bro. And like it'll wipe, not only will it wipe away the damage, it'll pick up ground. You'll, you'll get some deep healing there, right?

Because that demonstrates to the other person, like, hey, I'm working on this. Even though it is affecting you, like, it's something I'm taking responsibility for. It signals to the other person that, like, you give a shit and you care about them. That is worth its weight in gold. Okay? Then we get to some, a couple of other things. One is, you know, when, when y'all have a dynamic, when the next time that he feels self-loathing, I don't think you can just help him because that reinforces the inferiority. Mm-hmm.

So this is a bit, I'm going to give you a technique here, but I think something here is like a little bit along lines of like, what do you want me to do right now? Do you, do you, do you, you know, like you're going to figure it out on your own? Like sometimes, even a little bit of like expression of, like, faith can be rejected. So I think that's where you, yeah. There was an instance where I wasn't sure what to do because I don't know if it was Ludwig talking or is wallowing. Like there was an instance where I was in the boss battle and Ludwig died. And like Ludwig said in Dark Souls 2, if you, if I beat the boss, he doesn't get the souls if he's not alive. So I said, Ludwig, do you want me to beat the boss right now? And he said, yeah, I don't care. And so,

I did it. I beat the boss, but I felt like that wasn't the right move after the fact, because then Ludwig was like unhappy. Very good. That he wasn't there. So sometimes I don't know if I'm having a conversation with Ludwig or if I'm having a conversation with his wallowing. There's no difference, first of all, right? Okay. So, so, so, and that's, that's where, what does he want, Squeaks?

He wants to feel included and respected. Yeah. So this is, this is challenging. So I'll answer it in a different way. You're answering it psychological. He wants to have not died. Oh, okay. Right?

Yeah, yeah. But that happened. For sure. Now we get to another really challenging thing about relationships. Sometimes shit happens in relationships. And you can't fix it. And even if you ask your partner, what do you want me to do? Right.

It's like, I'm going to give you an extreme example. Turns out we can't get press. but we both want kids. Maybe I will go impregnate and then your partner's like, just impregnate my sister. It'll be fine. It's like, that ain't going to work.

Like even if they say like, right, because Ludwig is like, I have to suffer, I died, but I don't want to deprive the souls from you. You didn't die. You don't suck at the game. You shouldn't hold yourself back on my account.

Because even if you say, okay, I'm going to wipe, let's try again. What's the problem with that, Squeaks? then it's like I feel like then it's I'm infantilizing him I'm like I'm like the big bro being like oh you couldn't do it right so

now now this is so this is beautiful because this really happens in relationships where you're like damned if you do and damned if you don't how do you fix this problem really really really cool counter move here which is you dump it in their lap

you say Ludwig I don't know what to do you're telling me to wipe the boss if I wipe the boss I do it without you if I wipe myself you feel infantilized there's no way to win yeah so you dump it in his lap

you're like what do you want me to do and he's like eh you dump it in his lap like I don't know what to do like how are we going to do how are we going to solve this right and like look at his face right so I know I know when he looks at you at changes a little bit do you see your own camera he does he change his face and he looks up do you see his camera do you guys see your own camera

Or no? Not really. Okay. Kind of. It's up here. So, so chat will tell you, right? So Ludwig, what were you feeling when, when I was explaining that to Squeaks? About the dumping it in me?

Yeah. I was like, I don't mind. So, so like, there's positive affect in his face. He's smiling. Like, there's a little bit of a smile, right? Like, he knows that's, because you're actually like empowering him. You're not making a solution. Right?

It'd be a powerful solution. It's weird. So dumping it in their lap is like really important. So it's like, it's like, I don't know what to do. And when you say, I don't know what to do, what happens to your relative power level, squeaks? Who's player number one? I think we're both player one, because I think it's, we become a unit. Sure.

You know, but he's power. But he's power. You're dumping. You're playing on to you. Now Ludwig becomes player one. Because I get to, oh, I see. I see what you're right. Okay.

Like, oh, we're both. We're both. We're both. We're both. No. Fucking both. Right, right, right, right. Right.

Like, so, so that's where, like, when he's, you know, when he's behaving in a way, like, don't try to fix it. Just be like, bro, like, what do you want me to, like, I don't know how to, like, I can't decide. I can't figure out how to fix this. Yeah. And then you're right that it does become a we kind of thing. But taking someone's seat is really important.

Related to that, I think this is a little bit hard. but related to that, this dynamic of you being all the positive and him being all the negative, you should also take each other's seats there. So it's going to be hard for him to feel positive, but like we both know that if Squeak started raging at himself

in Dark Souls, Ludwig would pick you up. You're out of camera. Can you move back in? Oh, sorry. So if you started raging, right? If you started being like toxic towards yourself and things like that, Ludwig would support you. You get that? So like sometimes like what you need to do, this is some of the work that you'll need to do, you need to let your negativity out a little bit more.

And Ludwig, you need to let your positivity out a little bit more. And it's not that one is easier than the other. Really, really, really, really big scam that we tell people like, oh, just like be positive. It's hard to be positive. It's hard to be negative. It's hard. Anytime there's a relationship dynamic where you're being pulled in a particular way, like it's hard to break out of that. It requires, I don't know if this makes sense.

It's very natural to do one thing. it requires a lot of friction to do something else. For sure. Dr. Kay, do you mind if I interject really quick? Yes. Let me go ahead, please. I think that when I'm positive and he's negative is like our default state.

Yep. But oftentimes the flip is true. And like I will basically take on the role of a wallower and Ludwig will take on the role of someone positive. Like I think we have both of these. Exactly. Within us. Yeah. So like it oscillates.

Yes. That's the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So, like, I mean, this is something that happens all the time where, like, y'all are in relationships, I think, right? So you know that when you're falling apart, your partner will, like, help keep you together. And then when they're falling apart, you help keep them together. And this is true of your relationship.

This is true of the real world, not just this weird streamer collab thing, which is like, if y'all are falling into the role. of caretaker or care receiver consistently, that is not healthy for a long-term relationship. Right? So that's something that really needs to be worked on where like if you're the one who's the caregiver, it's very important to become the care receiver because oftentimes this is where things get a little bit weird, but like giving care makes you stronger in many ways. So there's a really interesting study that shows that receiving help in depression helps depression just about about as much is giving help to someone else. So there's just this weird way that human beings work where we like, you know, we want to, we want to alternate. That's actually healthy.

And then the good news is if you guys get pretty good at that, then eventually what will happen is you'll kind of like equilibrium. Both of you all will be somewhat in the middle and then you'll just like fluctuate depending on the moment. And fluctuations can even happen. like five minutes to five minutes. You wiped on the boss. I'm going to be the caregiver. I wiped on the boss. You're going to be the caregiver. And then then it can be quite good. You want to feel valuable and you want to feel loved. Absolutely. And you also want to love others and want to help them feel valuable. Right. But you guys are locked into this particular thing. For sure. Next thing. So this is where things get really weird. Okay. Now this is the hard part. We

We're done with the actual techniques. Now we get to some of the more advanced theory. The reason Ludwig wants SL1 is because he is trying to... You can yawn. It's fine, bro. Just yawn. Were you yawning? No, I masked that.

Okay. So the reason he's trying to create SL1, so this is what's so fucked. What we want psychologically in a relationship, we will build in real life. So when he creates SL1, is he inferior to you at that point? Squeaks. When he... If you guys do an SL1, so right now he's inferior to you. How does that balance shift if you guys are doing an SL1 level, run?

I feel like it makes it go in both extremes, to be honest. Like, I feel like it exacerbates a problem. No, it doesn't. Look at Ludwig's face. What do you think? So Ludwig, Ludwig, go ahead, Ludwig. Sorry. Well, I think it removes variables so that the only thing you have is yourself and, like, the same tool.

So you would be right that if you perform better, it would be the extreme because you would beat me with no variables. But in the same sense, if I perform equal, then, you know, there's no, I didn't decide. that. But I'm not talking about the performance. I'm just talking about SL1 exacerbates the tension between us because it's going to be so much more... Exacerbates the tension is fine. But this

is a new game. Who learns faster? Ludwig does. Absolutely. So he's leveling the playing field. Right now you're superior to him but he's creating a scenario to solve his own psychological problem.

He's going to alter the rules of the game to meet his psychological needs. This is one of the most damaging dynamics. I'm not calling you out here. Ludwig, everyone fucking does it, okay? I don't mind being damaging today. So this is one of the most damaging dynamics

where instead of telling people what we want, we engineer controlling behaviors to create what we psychologically want. I feel threatened that I'm gaining weight. And I feel like I have self-loathing towards myself. Even if you tell me I'm just as attractive, I don't feel as attractive. But instead of addressing that and saying, hey, I want you to help me feel attractive again,

instead, what I'm going to do is no more hanging out with your female friends. You guys get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. You're going to structure the environment to address your psychological needs. instead of addressing your psychological needs. This leads to the failure of relationships. This is how people start out. This is why people have to sign pre-ups.

Because what happens when you sign a pre-up is y'all are in love. And in this state of the relationship, there's no need for a pre-up. But then what happens is something happens in the relationship where things get stressed. And we don't address our psychological needs. And it's fucking amazing. How brilliant. Ludwig has no idea about anything. of this stuff but his mind is hungry for it he wants the s all one and you're like no bro

and he's like no let's do it let's do it just the tip come on baby he he wants it right yeah yeah right he really not i do he i know right and so where does that come from and it's like there's all this weird psychological stuff going on you want an even playing field because you feel like you're inferior. And the beautiful thing is that we can address that in all of these other ways, some of those weird verbal jiu-jitsu where it's like, we can help you feel good about yourself, right? And we can respect you. And then it'll solve all those dynamics.

So like sometimes people are in relationships and they don't understand why their partner is so insistent about a certain change to your environment or circumstance. If you are ever wondering why your partner is so insistent about wanting you to do something, you just need to ask yourself, what is the psychological impact for them? And then once you address that directly, so what we try to do in couples therapy is like once we raise this to the surface, we address it directly. So once we understand that Ludwig feels inferior to you in some way, once we understand that, we address that directly by offering him respect, by him generally,

genuinely understanding why you respect him, then all of those behaviors will start to melt away. It's fucking insane. He's going to shit on you less when he's better than you now, by the way. That effect is like, it's happened. Whether you guys, and I know we're kind of like pretending or whatever, but like that's going to happen for real. It's done, right?

So just because you end up better, he gets better faster. And he knows that too. This is where like now you guys have arrived at truth. But if at the get-go, you guys started into an argument and will be like, yeah, sure, I end up better. But actually, you learn faster. He would have rejected it. That's why this technique of like, what do you think makes me, what do you respect about my gaming skills?

When he's in a frame of hearing it, then he can receive it. That's why that becomes so important. That was the last point that I kind of wanted to make about this weird circumstance and psychological needs. So. psychologically, should we not do SL1? Is it feeding in? What do you think? How do you all feel about SL1 now?

Be honest. And it doesn't have to be the right answer. You don't have to solve. We're going to get to the answer to your question, but it doesn't have to start with your initial response. I'll help you all get there. How do you feel about SL1? So far, I feel fine about it.

We've only taken on three bosses. And we did a first try, like one that was harder. It took like maybe an hour and then one that was a second try. But these are also the three easiest bosses, Dark Souls 3 offers. And I don't know what comes next. Okay. So I don't feel like it has proven itself to be undoable. But I also haven't.

I don't know how the experience to know otherwise. And my fear is that we start SL1 and we get through all the easy bosses. But then like it's harder to switch because Dark Souls 3, we're doing the DLC. gets genuinely difficult. So then I fear that we're going to have to like soul form or something to catch up to all of the lost souls from starting SL1. So that, you know, that's, that's my big fear with doing SL1 is we don't have the time to do an SL1 run.

What are you? So if you don't understand Ludwig, you can ask a what question or what you should do is reflect back your understanding. What make, sorry. You just had a smile and made me laugh. Because I was expecting your smile face when you look at me. What makes you so nervous about not finishing it in time? Because the punishment, our punishment, Dr. K is we have to get married in Vegas.

And what's the wrong with that? I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that, you know? I really don't want to do that, you know. And I think I feel like we're getting punished for doing so well in Dark Souls 1 and 2. And I feel like that might be unfair to us, to us, that we're adding a certain wrench in the middle of the marathon to make it unattainable. Yeah. And if we struggled more on Dark Souls 2 and struggled more on Dark Souls 1, then we wouldn't have this thing, but it'd still be possible.

So I feel like we're being punished for doing so well. Yeah. I think that's right. But also, I think we can just do it. Like, I think we're just powerful enough to get. What makes you think that? I've never, I don't know, it can't be that fucking hard. Desmos did it.

Desmos from the chat. And I feel like we're better gamers than Desmos. So the reason I want to push back. Don't push back. Don't push back. What did you ask a question or reflect back? I understand that you think we're better than the average. No, no, no. Wrong.

I understand that you think we're better. That's sharing your own opinion. What is he saying? Oh, what he's saying is that we should still reframe what he's saying? Yeah, reflect it back to him. What is his viewpoint? His viewpoint is that we should just do it because he just believes we can do it. Because he sees that someone in the chat has done it and that we're better.

What does he have that you don't have, Squeaks? His ability to learn quickly. That's a part of it. What else? He believes you can do it. You don't believe that you can. He's confident. He's more confident.

He has faith. He has faith. In who? Yeah. In us. Yeah. Yeah. That's what he feels.

I mean, my whole body is wanting to recoil at this and retort and say what I really, I'm really all to get in. Okay. But yeah, I guess he has more faith and confidence in us. This is really important. So when we do this, this is what the experience is like. It's really hard. Yeah. Right? And Ludwig, how do you feel receiving what squeaks is sending your way right now?

Mm-hmm. You know, I see him recoiling. It's pretty obvious. Yeah, yeah. Good. And it makes me, I'll never question my blind faith and belief in us ever. It will never shackle. I always think we can achieve this. But there's also no point in achieving it if the feeling that it gives you is so palpable. If the effort to attempt it is so stressful or whatever it is, it doesn't make me believe we can't do it. Like, I'm not switching to the side of it's impossible. I'm switching to the side of, okay, well, then what's the point of doing it? We don't have to. Could you explain that to me?

I'm sorry. I don't understand. I think it's okay to not do SL1, but not because we can't do it. Like, I'll never accept that the reason we don't do us so one is because we can't do it. Because I think we can do it. I 100% agree with you, 100%. But I'm okay not doing SL1 because of the tension it brings you. I don't feel tension about this.

The only stress that I feel is that we don't have enough time. And that's part of the tension. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If we had infinite time, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we don't have infinite time. There's a life. There's a schedule.

There's a... Yeah. Yeah. That being said, Ludwig, I understand that your faith in us is so strong. And I agree that we can do it if we had wider time parameters. But I'm willing to buckle up and do it if you feel very passionate. I don't want you to make a concession.

If you're really passionate about finishing an SL1 run, Let's fucking do it. Is it better to do the S.O.1 run and say, fuck the DLC. So we don't have to worry about that. Or not do the SL1 run, but also do the DLC. So basically see more of the game or achieve a greater, you know, gaming accomplishment, quote, unquote. I personally would say to for sure do the DLC. Because it's like some of the most iconic bosses.

So I would say we could do SL1. If those are the two choices, I would say not to do SL1 just so we can see the DLC. That would be my take. Then I think we just do no vigor, which still has a lot of deaths, but we would be able to retain our levels. We could do Dark Souls 3. We can do the DLCs. Probably at a pretty good pace too. Yeah.

But with like a difficulty that wouldn't make it super easy to beat. For sure. I agree with that completely. And I think the no vigor is a great compromise. I mean, that's also very tough. Yeah, it'll be hard. But it's a great compromise. But at least the damage output will scale.

Yeah. And it would sound like we go to DLC and we're level one. Yeah. And that boys and girls is couples therapy. Well done. Thanks. Thank you. Really?

This is how just the tip ends up in conversations like this, right? It's like, so I want you all to like just notice. Honestly, like, I can't tell if y'all are acting at this point because I literally could not come up. I could not script a more perfect conversation because you guys disagreed and look at what like I didn't even, I just sat the fuck back. You guys came up with a compromise. You understood why the other person felt what they felt. And this is why truth doesn't matter. Is it right to do it?

Is it wrong? No one fucking cares. It's not important. Look, I understand. And the crazy thing is that I don't know if you guys caught this. But both of y'all Ludwig wanted to do SL1. You didn't want to do SL1. And in a conversation, both of you were like, we can do it your way.

And then, like, that's crazy. You guys got there on your own. You're like, look, I have faith that we can do it, but I don't want to do it. Just the tip, baby. But if you're not ready, I'm okay with that. you know and then squeaks is like i'm not like i know we could do like just the tip is okay but like not under this pressure you know like i'm not ready yet like these constraints are not and then i don't know what the just the tip one vigor analogy is right hand stuff maybe yeah like a finger

let's start with the finger right right right but it's like it's like it's like Like it's beautiful the way you guys figured this out, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and like, seriously, like, well done to both of you. This is, this is not easy to do. And you guys, like, y'all felt how hard it was. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You know? But beautiful. Good luck. Thank you. This was super helpful. Yeah. Thank you so much. I loved it.

I remember this. Yeah. I think multiple relationships. I think it works for any. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful. I was. stunned by how real the relationship dynamics are.

Oh, one last part is you guys haven't slept and you're in a stressful situation. So one last thing to remember about couples work is that like when we're, when we're, when we're in the postpartum period, for example, and you have like young kids, what you guys are going through is very similar to that. You're like not like and then relationships just get worse. Like the tension between you, all the dynamics between you are going to get exacerbated because of external stressors. That's why I think it's good to not, you know, to work through stuff because, you know, a month from now when y'all are like not doing this again, y'all are going to be best buds.

And this whole experience is going to make you even stronger. Strong work, guys. And good luck. Thank you. What do you have to do? I'm going to probably relax and then spend some time with my children. And then I think I'm going to, are you all still streaming? Yeah, but we're probably going to go for a walk and just.

chill for a bit. Okay. We didn't get to do our morning walk. So I may watch y'all stream a little bit. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm like, I'm invested now. Like I want to watch, I want to watch the bromance succeed. Okay. Well, hopefully we make you proud. All right, man. Take care. All right. Thanks for joining us today. We're here to help you understand your mind and live a better life. If you enjoy the conversation, be sure to subscribe. Until next time, take care of yourself. and each other.