HealthyGamerGG - Doomers in a Boomer World: Advice for a Disillusioned Generation

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

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So the first thing is that I think the biggest problem is that we were led to believe something that is actually incorrect. And so I think the real challenge here is that we've had to figure out. And I don't think anyone has really, I mean, we're doing this, but I don't think many people stop and really think a little bit about the fact that we have to find our own way forward in this. We're not going to find an answer from somewhere else because those answers just don't work anymore. Why don't we start? Does somebody want to just tell us a little bit about who you are and what we can help you with today on stream? Like what you go by? Who wants to start? Okay, I'll start. I basically volunteered.

Thank you. Hi, I'm Stray Cat. Okay. I'm very nervous because I have social anxiety. So this is rough for me to say the least. Yeah, well, props for you for being here and social anxiety can be crippling and terrifying. Yeah, definitely. So we'll see if we can sort of think about that as we kind of continue and just pay attention to what your social anxiety is doing.

We'll see if we can help. So welcome, Straycat. Thank you. My name is Rune and Rune, and I was moniker to Dumer, so I was invited on here. I'm not quite sure exactly what you can help me with, but I'm happy to be here, man. Okay, cool. Well, I'm happy to have you here, and I also don't know how I can help you, and also don't know what a dumer is.

So we'll get to that in a second. Let's finish doing it. Maybe we can learn that. Maybe we can learn that. Let's keep going with introductions. Okay, I guess I can go. So my name is Zil. So I think I'm like a dumer because when I did like read up about Buddhism, I learned about

Mu within zen Buddhism and we talked about like nothing. And like that kind of sort of like change my perspective on things. And so like nothing is there. I always say like nothing is everything. Everything is nothing. Okay. And I always have like other problems that like sort of like bubble up as it relates to being a dumer. so

I'm interested just to like learn about things today okay awesome man welcome uh zill can you tell us a little bit I'm just a little bit curious what kind of other

problems do you think bubble up from moo yeah so like my relation to friends like um I don't I don't see myself as having like a best friend

um and like relationships I always like I feel like as if because I don't need to have like a special someone, I treat everyone sort of like as special. Like everyone is special to me. It's the type of deal, right? Okay.

And it's like a certain way. It's a weird thing that like, that I have to like think about. But yeah. And that makes you, that makes you a doomer? Or it's like I can't have like a special someone, right? Like the like the one I feel like, you know, because I treat everyone. I see. So because you treat everyone as special, no one person can be special.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's helpful. Thank you very much for explaining that. Let's get the remaining two people. Can you please introduce yourselves? Yeah.

I'm in Nassi. I'd say I'm a doom because many aspects in life I feel like I'm doomed to fail. Like education, relationship. I'm isolated quite alone most of the time. Stuff like that. I also have social anxiety and depression a lot of the time. So, yeah, it all feeds into a feeling of isolation and hopelessness. Okay.

And sort of thinking that in the near future, I'll probably be just alone, sort of... In the near future? Just in the future in general. Okay. I may ask a little bit more about why I use the word near there for a second, but we can thanks for introducing yourself in Asi.

And then I think we have one more introduction. Hi, so I go by Lotus. I was also monocured as a Duma, so that's why I've been invited onto the stream today. Okay. I guess my main thing

and why I would actually kind of associate with being a Dumer is that I've I'm still fairly young, I'm 21, but I've seemingly failed over and over again ever since my senior years in high school, where it's just kind of,

I stopped giving a shit about a lot of things in life, and I even told myself that over and over again until it clearly became apparent that I couldn't live with that attitude as a cook or going into higher education, which I actually fully withdrew from last term. Okay. Okay. So thanks a lot for sharing that intro, Lotus. So let's just start with this,

because I'm, you know, I'm behind the times. So what's a Dumer? Zill, what you got? Okay. We were talking about this earlier. We were trying to pin this one down with Moses, and it was tough. It's a tough one. Yeah.

So I guess like my, so like, there's a video on a Dumer, and like I resonate with it. And in the video, it said like, for a Dumer, right, they believe, like, all the external shit, like, like, the world's gone to shit. And so therefore it's like, why, like, we're going to suffer no matter what, because because the world is shit. And we have to contrast the Duma with like the boomer. It's like the boomer's like, oh, like if the world's gone as shit, like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

Whereas the Dumer would be like, no, you all fucked it up for us. Like, what can we do now? So like that's sort of like, there's like external factors that sort of like influence the way that we sort of like be in the world. I think there's like a dichotomy between like the way that boomers, a boomers are basically just modernism and then Dumeers are postmodernism. I think it's the best way to look at it. What does that mean? Meaning like this idea of truth with like boomers saw you have to work for truth and you have to you have to sort of find your own variant of that. And then I think

Dumers basically acknowledge that there really isn't any and your everything is kind of meaningless. And that affects a lot of people in our generation. I think it affects most of our generation. Like, my generation being like, I don't know, like 18 to like 25 kind of in that span. But it affects some people, I think, negatively because they have other shit in their past or they have things they're dealing with psychologically that make that lack of meaning really oppressive to them. Okay. So, man, so you guys know I touch my face a lot when I'm streaming because I think. And I have to stop touching my face because of COVID. It's very hard.

Um, okay, so, so I'm just trying to understand. So first of all, like, anyone else on the call want to add what they believe a Dumer is, or do you guys think we've sort of captured it? No, I think it's about right. Okay. Straycat, do you sort of identify with certain features of what people have been talking about? Uh, definitely. Like, just lack of direction and just lack of meaning, really. Okay. All right. So let me see if I understand this. Okay. So the world, so. And then we're going to start to like understand a little bit about how this stuff works. So let's just try to understand the relationship between different pieces. The first is that the assumption that the world is shit. Right? That's like where this starts from. And and so what I'm hearing is that like since the world is shit, that's what leads to suffering or the stuff like where does how does suffering? relate to the status of the world for you guys? Like when you think about your life, where does your suffering come from? Does it come from your circumstances and that your circumstances are

unchangeable? That's a tough question, I think. I tend to put a lot of my suffering on myself. Like, it was my responsibility. But I'm not sure if that's a Dumer thing or a me thing, you know? So let's think about that, right? So I'm going to just point out what? I heard from you guys, that the world is shit and therefore they're suffering or there's some tie between, you know, when you guys were talking about a boomer, a boomer believes that in spite of circumstances, it is possible to continue to achieve by lifting yourself up through your bootstraps. Right. So like what you're capable of as an individual outweighs what the world, the challenges the world offers. So you can overcome challenges. Whereas what I'm hearing is different about a

Doomer is that you don't, like, it's kind of assumed that, like, there's going to be, like, you're kind of hopeless and there's nothing you can do because the world is going to hell in a handbasket. And so I'm still a little bit confused. Does that mean that the suffering comes from the world because it's so bleak that no matter what you do, the world is like, you're just not going to be successful? So in Roon's case, he sort of places a lot of the blame on himself. But I think that lack of success is inevitable. Just the the same way. But okay, fine. Inevitable, sure. But why is it inevitable? I'm curious what other people say, think. Like, do you guys think that your failures because the world basically is

screwed, or do you blame yourselves? Definitely blame myself more than the world. Okay. So... Yeah, if I think I was another person, I think I'd succeed in a lot of different aspects better than I currently do it. Okay. I agree with, like, it being on myself, but I think a lot of that is the social anxiety. Sure. Like, I know I shouldn't blame myself for social anxiety, but I feel like people like me aren't treated well. Like, stigma is a huge thing with people with mental illness.

And I feel like if I went out and tried, a lot of people wouldn't look at it very fairly. Okay. This may sound like a silly question, Straycat, but why shouldn't you blame yourself for having social anxiety? Because it's not really part of who I am or what I am doing to myself, maybe. Okay. So it's something that's outside of your control. It's not a choice. Yeah.

Okay. And Zill, what do you think? Do you blame yourself for your situation in life, or do you blame the outside world? It's kind of complicated. because it's like, yeah, I recognize that it's the outside world. So it's like there are these variables that you can't, they're like independent that you can't influence. But I can't influence the relation to those variables.

But despite of that relationship, I feel as if there's always like something pushing me down. So that's why I feel as if it's like kind of both external, but also like I could have done something, but something just pushes me down so I can't. Okay. I'm really curious. How many people feel like Zill, they can relate to Zill saying like, when you try, something pushes you down. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I feel like I was pushing myself down. That's why I kept feeling.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think out of everything that you guys have said, I think the image of you trying and being knocked down again and again and again is sort of like what I'm feeling the most from. is that how you feel? Yeah. And so what is it that knocks you down? I think it's different every time. It gets complicated pretty quickly. Okay. Does somebody want to share an example of, you know,

when they tried to do something and how life kind of... Yeah. Actually, I'm going to go... I tried doing therapy multiple times. like different therapists. I don't know if you know therapy works in Canada. It's free, like,

but it's not the best. If you're not paying, you basically just get chosen someone and you have to wait like months between. And yeah, I tried like, I think with almost 10 different therapists. Oh my God.

And yeah, I kept trying and trying. And I don't know. Like no one really, helped or like a lot of them didn't even do anything for me they just told me to go on drugs interesting um so so i think that's a great example of you like really gave it you know 10 chances like 10 tries is a lot of tries yeah right i mean that's that's not like giving up after like you know something doesn't go your way once like 10 is a lot and and for all 10 of those experiences

is, it sounds like all of them were not really helpful? Oh, I did find one, and she was a good therapist, but she stopped practicing. So that's Duma right there, right? It's like, you find the one person that can help you, and they're like, yeah, I'm quitting. Okay. It kind of justifies the mindset. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, right? So it's like when you, I think it, like Zill was saying, like, when you try to make a change in your life, life sort of says, fuck you.

And then pushes you back down. Okay, that was very helpful. Does anybody else want to share, like, an experience where they tried to, you know, move forward in life? And life kind of didn't let that happen? I think mine, a big one for me is, like, education. Okay. Ever since school, it's always been 40%, 50%, no matter how hard I try, study and stuff like that. and I just keep failing really.

And when I go sit down to study, I struggle to study, because just for many reasons really. And I just feel hopeless. And sometimes it just results in me not trying in some cases. Okay. Because I know what the outcome is going to be already. I just don't ever do well. You know what the outcome is going to be already.

Yeah. How many of you feel like when you think about trying to, something, you know what the outcome is going to be. Yeah. Yep. I feel like I rehearse it in my head and it goes bad. What do you mean by rehearse it in your head? Like, I feel like I go through scenarios, like, of what's going to happen before it actually happens.

Okay. You guys do that? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like running simulations, like models right in your head. Yeah. Like your brain's like a computer. So you run models and.

try to figure out what's going to happen. Okay. Hmm. Hmm. What effect, if any, does running those computer simulation models have in your mind? It's never a good one. What effect is it? Let's start there. I think I'm trying to prepare for whatever is going to happen,

but I end up just making myself anxious and nervous and not wanting to do it. Okay. So it sounds like the more simulations you run, you've noticed a correlation between the more simulations you run, the worse you perform. Yeah. What do you guys think? Yeah, I think it just justifies, it makes you scared of what you're going to do before it happens. And then it sort of becomes true because of that. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy? Yeah, in a way.

Okay, so you're telling me And I see that the That the more you kind of think about things It's sort of full it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy So it's almost like your failure is inevitable Like the more you worry about it Yeah You guys agree or disagree

I agree Yeah when you put it that way I agree Okay Yeah like that framing like I can agree with And like I resonated a lot with the with the Nazis like trying like I'm always sort of like trying right like and I try to sort of like don't have no expectation to just try and see if it works or not but it's always like life bitch slaps with me in the face whenever I try it's like nope like there's

this variable that you didn't account for even though you tried your shit out of luck does life feel abusive to you guys it can like I mean just feels empty Empty. Like, do you guys, does it feel to you like life is almost like a malicious force? Specifically, I think it feels like there's a certain idealistic version of what I would really like. And then there's a, like, a huge difference between what I would like and what I want to achieve versus what I'm actually living. And in a way, that can kind of feel abusive as that gets more extreme. Okay.

So a gap between truth and fantasy. A bit. Fantasies has implications that I don't like, but maybe that's kind of the point. The life that you want to achieve? Yeah. What would you call that? Yeah, fantasy. It sounds like fantasy is not the right word.

No, I think I just said that because I was slightly uncomfortable with a connotation. But that doesn't mean it's not the right word. What connotation were you uncomfortable? The person kind of just living in some conjured, Disney world of theirs. Is that the make chance? Yeah, sure. Is that what you do?

No, I don't think I do that completely. Okay, so it sounds like, I think everyone does it a little bit. Sure, so it sounds like fantasy is not the right word. So what is the right word? Rune. Hmm. I can't think of a better one. Huh?

So let's, let's help ruin out. Like, when you guys think about the life that you could live, do you think fantasy is the right word or do you think it's something else? That's a little cool. dream. Okay. What do you mean by dream? It's like a dream, something that you strive to achieve, or dream is like the state of

consciousness when you go to sleep and you can fly and you have the head of a horse? It's something I strive to achieve, but I feel, in my case, it's something that I'll never have at the same time. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what is it that you guys want to achieve? What is that, what is the world that you want look like? Just living comfortably with a comfortable dream. and people that you know around you. Okay.

What does living comfortably mean? You know, worry about stuff like finances or... So financial security? Yeah. Rid yourself of worries in general. Rid yourself of worries. What other worries are there? Just like anxiety going to places, stuff like that.

Anxiety going to places. What else? I'd say depression as part of that. What does that mean depression? Can you help us understand that, Anasi? Just feeling down a lot of the time, and I guess isolated in my case as well. Okay. I enjoy being with others a lot of the time, but I don't really get that opportunity. What keeps you from having that opportunity?

Well, I would probably say other people have left me, but I know for sure it's just me not going out of my own way to meet people and stuff like that. Can anybody help me understand what Anasi just said? He said, I would say that it's other people leaving me, but I know for sure it's me not going out of my way. So like, I'm confused about who's responsible for his situation. What do you guys think? It's a fear of putting yourself out and being vulnerable with other people.

Okay. What do you guys think about other people leaving him? Does that happen to you? I'm kind of confused on what to think about that, because in high school, I had to leave one of my best friends to then sort of join my other best friend. I was sort of like in a group of friends, and I was a kid in the middle,

and I had to choose one or the other. And how did you choose? Well, the reason they split up in the first place was that one of them was kind of being an asshole. So then my other friend just stopped hanging out with both of us, right? So I had to figure out why that happened in the first place.

Okay. And then when he told me that, I thought about it for a week and then I didn't really tell anyone, I didn't really tell either of them like, what to do about this, but I ended up sticking with the other friend

who felt like he was being treated poorly. Okay. And then a few years later, he ended up ditching me in return. A few years later, he ended up ditching you? Yeah. He was dealing with a lot of mental health issues of his own. Huh. Okay.

So what do you think is the reason he ditched you? He mentioned loyalty, which felt like a very sort of fabricated answer to me at the time. I felt like it wasn't the complete truth. Okay. Do you feel like you made the wrong choice in terms of who you went with in terms of friendship? I don't, but I feel like it ended up being something that was slightly out of my control. And I couldn't have known, like at the time, I don't think I could have done anything to sort of change the circumstances. Sure. So I have a couple of questions for you guys, okay? This is going to sound kind of weird.

So the first question is, how much sense do you think the other people in this chat are making? I think a lot because I've had similar situations too. And so, like, I think I can understand where they're coming from. I don't know for sure. But, like, a lot of the things that they're describing has happened to me. So, like, say, like, moving from one friend group to another because the one friend was being an asshole. Yeah. What do other people think?

Do you think the other people in this chat are kind of like, and if you don't, I mean, if you think they're not making sense, please say so. It's like, I'm not trying to frame the question for a particular answer. I'm just curious about what y'all's senses of whether other people are making sense. I feel like there's a lot more that is not being said to whatever they're saying. Like there's a lot of underneath that is being kind of like broached down through subtext and that's it. Can you help me understand what the subtext is, Ruth? I mean, not for other people. For yourself.

Like you're reading something. You're feeling something. You're reading something, right? So let's bring it from subtext to like text. Hmm. I think it's just, there's like this unanimous feeling of isolation between all of us. Okay. Well said.

What do you guys think? Yeah. 100%. 100%. Okay. So this is kind of. interesting, right? So my, can I just share a couple of thoughts and like you guys have to, you know, guide me from here. So my first thought is that I was expecting a bunch of people who were

like, I don't know, like, Dumers. Like you guys don't seem like Dumers to me. Like I had this idea of a Dumer as someone who is like, you know, just full of cognitive bias and like just has a view of the world that is really, really like misshapen, right? Who just like thinks like, like I was expecting someone who's not going to make sense, basically. So I have this particular view of the world, and I'm confident in my view of the world, and I understand it's not everyone else's view of the world. But the first thing that I was shocked by is how actually legitimate all of your perspectives are. And I think that, you know, even as we start to like pick things apart a little bit, I'm also very surprised and frankly impressed by how much you guys are willing to question.

some assumptions, or even express confusion about something. That I think is actually really, really hopeful. So I'll give you guys just an example. It started out with the definition of a doomer, which is like anytime you try something, the world is a shit place so you're destined to suffer. But when I ask you guys, where is the origin of suffering? Is it because the world is going to shit or is it your fault? Like each of you is giving me sort of nuanced and complex answers. Right? Like, it's actually kind of, I mean, it sort of makes sense.

Like, if we just take what Stray Cat said about therapy, for example, like, if you've tried to see 10 therapists and only one of them has been helpful and the one that was helpful quit, like, it's reasonable to think that the world is kind of a shit place and isn't going to help you out. Does that make sense? Like, that's not, it's not, that's not depression. Like, sometimes I work with people who are depressed. and people who are depressed don't see the world in a correct way.

Right? So they think, like, they think thoughts like, you know, my family would be better off. Like, my kids would be better off without me, so I should kill myself. They think thoughts like that. But what I'm really surprised by, and maybe that's a little bit of what I was expecting, what I'm surprised by is actually how rational all of your thoughts are. You know, like, it's a little bit surprising. And also that when I challenge some of your thoughts that you guys are able to kind of like look at them

is in kind of a new way. And then I also think it's really awesome that, you know, you guys have kind of, the subtext here is isolation. So what, would you guys say that the core of your problem is that you're isolated? For me, yes. Yeah.

Definitely feels that way, yeah. Okay, so, so great. So, like, have you guys thought the core of your problem is isolation? Like, before today. It sort of feeds into my, I'll be home alone in the future, sort of doomed mentality. So what is the doomed mentality, Anasi? Mine is just that I'm set up to fail in a lot of aspects in life and that in years to come, I'll just be in the same spot and won't achieve anything.

Okay. So I want you guys to just think about that for a second and notice what he's saying, right? So this is exactly what I'm hearing from y'all is that the problems are in every dimension of your life. That's the initial frame that you're doomed in everything. And you guys were talking about, I think Anasi, you mentioned like giving 40 or 50% at your best in terms of education. Yeah. And that other people are sort of like we're thinking about therapy. We're thinking about isolation.

We're thinking about social anxiety. We're thinking about education. We're thinking about failure. We're thinking about financial security. It's like every dimension of your life is screwed. Yeah. That's the way you guys pitch it at the beginning, because I think that's the way that it feels to you in your head. That everywhere you look around, it's like the world is a bleak place, and that's what a Dumer is.

Everywhere you look, there's darkness. But what I'm actually hearing from you guys is that this isn't actually like 16 problems. And part of the reason that it can feel overwhelming is because when you look around and you see 30 problems, that is like literally overwhelming. You can't fix 30 things. You can't get a job and get an A and get a girlfriend and make $100,000 a year. You can't do all of those things. And so the other bizarre thing about being a doomer, apparently, is that I think your feeling of being overwhelmed is not like an illness. I think it's just you look around and every part of your life seems to be like sort of empty and bleak.

So you're like, well, fuck, where do I even start? That actually is logical. It's not, yeah. But the interesting, go ahead. So like, I think, so when we were looking at like what a dumer is, just like this video that explains it. And like that's very much what the video said. It's like it's all a logical thing. It's sort of like the how essentially like we are today or like how today was set up from the past.

Right. So like everything like it's not. I agree that's like a lot of the things. It's not necessarily like something else. but other things, like, kind of like the perfect storm. When someone says a perfect storm, it's like these sets of, such you, like, circumstances created this, right? And this is the external world. Yeah.

Yeah. So that also, like I'm a little bit confused about because when I ask you guys, like, who is ultimately responsible? So I understand the framework that you all have laid out. I understand everything that you guys have, I mean, I think I do, that the external world is problematic and stuff like that. The problem is that when I actually ask you guys about your life, what I hear is not that the rest of the world is a complete mess and things like that. What I hear is that I'm fundamentally isolated. That's what I'm hearing first and foremost. And also I'm hearing that it's not that the outside world's fault. It's like my fault.

I'm going to throw an idea here and was curious if everyone else here agrees. But it's not so much that like all the previous events I'm life have created this moment where now the world's going to fuck me. It's more like the previous events of my life created me which can't succeed, a version of me that can't succeed. Who is also isolated? Yeah. Okay. So this is excellent, right? So this is good. Now we're getting somewhere. So the world has turned you into the person that you are. And the person that you are is fucked. Yeah, basically.

Is that a doomer? I think in a way. Huh? In a way it is. Okay. So help me understand Stray Cat, in what way are we missing? I think a lot of the time people, when they say Dumer, they mean someone who looks at society is the issue and what we said. But we kind of flipped that around, didn't we?

Yes, we did. That's my point. Right? So if we can flip this around, I wonder what else we can flip around. That's very exciting. That's a very bloomer statement. No, I mean, like, seriously, that's not, I'm not trying to, so you guys know I tend to be positive, right? Like, I'm a positive guy.

But, like, I didn't come in here and say, like, oh, you guys could turn your life around, because I don't actually know that. I don't know that you can. Maybe you guys are fucked. Right? Right. But what I think Straycat put it beautifully, and this is this is what, this is actually what's giving me hope, is that by talking about this, you guys are getting a new perspective. Like, that's what I mean, because what y'all are describing is fundamentally different from the picture of a doomer. And that's what Straycat is saying, is that it's not necessarily the outside world. And I think what Rune said makes a lot of sense that the outside world has turned you into the person that you are today.

and the chances of the person that you are today are bleak. I'll accept that. But I still think that if you guys have been trying from a doomer mindset and you've been failing from a doomer mindset and you change the way that you look at the world and you change where agency and power lie, then I think that there's a chance for you to change. And it's not about like just putting on a new mindset like, yeah, like I can do it. believe in yo self like that's not what I'm talking about I'm not saying like adopt a new mindset just because that's what the power

of positive thinking is I think that that's dumb I think the question is can you authentically look at your life understand how you got to be this way understand why you can't move forward and then figure out a new strategy that is actually authentic for you I think that's the crux of my problem

specifically and I talk about this a bit with Roon. So it's like, I put essentially, like, I acknowledge all these things and I was like, okay, how can I move forward? So when we're talking about like financial security and like education, right? And then like coming from and so like the first, first gen Asian background, I had my parents tell me that. Like, oh, go to college.

Oh, be an engineer. Oh, do all these things. So you have a you have a path forward. So essentially what happened was I couldn't do what you're suggesting of like the authentic self and put myself on autopilot. And I feel as if and this is where the Duma comes in, like if I ever try to take control or turn the autopilot off and take control everything like I'm just going to turn everything into shit. Whereas my autopilot like has sort of paved away for me. So I don't want to lose that kind of. Wait, is the autopilot a good thing or a bad thing?

Not, I'm not asking, Shil, hold on, hold on. I'm asking other people. What do you guys think about Shill being on autopilot? I feel very much that I'm on autopilot in my education as well. I think I can relate when I'm out in public. I think it's what gets me through, like that moment in time. So what do you guys think about Zill's fear of going off of autopilot? I think he's

Sorry, go ahead Go Fort Run Oh, okay I was just gonna say I think he's probably Because I don't, I'm never on autopilot I really am very, I mean, I say that Everyone, because I'm on autopilot sometimes

But oftentimes I try not to be And I think it has given me a lot of opportunities Through virtue of like effort That being on an autopilot wouldn't have given me What do you think about And I'm sorry, somebody else wanted to say something? Yeah, my autopilot sort of just doing what I've always been doing in uni and not really straying from that and being pushed

by my parents to do the same sort of stuff like an education. I just sort of follow that. I don't know if I always give my all, but that's sort of why I just... Sounds like you never give your all. Possibly. I mean, you're the one who said like at best I give 50%. Your words, but... Sometimes I I try, but that's like all I get out of it in, like, results. Okay. Important distinction. Okay. What do you guys think about Zills being afraid to turn off autopilot?

That's the reason I'm still doing my unicourse and stuff. Otherwise, I might have ventured off and tried other thing. Lotus, I haven't heard you speak up in a little bit. Anything that you want to add? You don't have to. I'd like to give you a chance to talk. I can relate kind of because I grew up with the first-generation parents as well and I was actually born in Canada but they never really put me into autopilot. I kind of just went with the flow through all my life and then I became sort of either heavily attached or addicted to gaming or just being on my computer and for me that's my autopilot right.

actually taking time to cook or to exercise or to just even like walk outside is already challenged sometimes depending on how I feel okay can I just think for a second yeah how do you guys think this is going by the way it's a little all over the place yep anyone else feel that way I think we can still tie it all together though yeah yeah like like yeah like we can all tie it all tired. Yeah, we can always like loop it back, you know, because like, I think we, because you said that like, it feels as if like everything, like everything is sort of like feels overwhelming. So like, because of if we feel like it's everything, then somehow it'll all tie back together. Yeah. So, I mean, would you guys say that this conversation is almost like a reflection of what

your life feels like? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, neat how that happens, huh? Right. So like I think Straycat, that's an excellent observation. So I too feel like it's kind of all over the place. I feel like we're talking about a lot of different things. I'm not quite sure if we've made progress. So that's why I'm asking for a few minutes to kind of stop and think and try to figure out like how can we put some of this together in a meaningful way. Okay.

Hold on. One more minute. Yeah. I'm just not sure how to answer that because I feel like I'm probably the least dumer person here. I feel like a Damer half the time There's so many of us that have said that Yeah I feel like Dimmer is something that

Mostly people have called me I don't call it myself I don't call it myself at very much Oh man there's so much here okay Okay I'm gonna just What did you say earlier? About what you said something earlier about The whole mindset of like embracing positivity

For the sake of that will make you feel better on its own accord that that's kind of, you said something like, that's why I want you to re-articulate it because I'm not, I didn't remember exactly. I think the power positive thinking is bad. Yeah. So I think that there are a lot of people who try to be relentlessly positive and that's actually incredibly toxic.

So I think that when you ignore what's bad in your life and you just focus on the positive, like, you know, if I have like a broken arm and I'm like, oh, but I still have one arm, that works. And I'm like, oh, but like, look, this arm works great. Like, let's just focus on the fact, let me be thankful for this arm being functional. And it's like, if that's your strategy in life, you're going to go through life with one arm, you're never going to try to fix it's broken. Right. And I think it's just, I think the, my foundation is not to try to be positive. It's not to try to be negative. It's try to be where you are. Like, be where you are, start where you are, and move from there. And whenever you try to,

to like be in a place that you're not, which by the way, I think is like half of like some of y'all's problems. Right. I mean, I think like of anyway, I'll get there. But I think I think I see a couple people smiling. So I think you guys know what I'm talking about. So I think I want to start with this. Like so the promise of a generation.

So I'm also like a, you know, my parents were immigrants from South Asian country, India. And so I kind of also feel the, you know, for those, I mean, I don't know. where Lotus is from. But, you know, when I was growing up, I had a couple of options. So my dad once told me that, like, I have an older brother. He's like, one of y'all is going to be a lawyer and one of y'all is going to be a doctor. And my brother's older and he went to law school. So in my med school interviews, they're like, why do you want to be a doctor?

And then I'd say, well, my dad said that what do you all has to be a lawyer and one of y'all has to be a doctor. And my brother was older and he got to choose first. So here I am. And then, you know, they would laugh because that. That's obviously funny. And what they didn't understand is that, you know, that was actually half the reason I was there. But I think, you know, we're, so what I want to start with is that like our generation was given a promise, right? That we were given a promise of like success and happiness.

And we were told that if you follow this formula, this is how you will be successful, secure, and happy in your life. And we were told this formula with with such finality that you work hard, you go to college, you get. get a job, you leave, you graduate with one of these like very specific degrees. Like you don't major in liberal arts. You don't major in art history. You know, you get yourself like a real job, like engineering or like CS. Like CS was sort of like the forefront of like people are like, we don't really know if this is going to work out.

And then, you know, the dot com boom happened in 2000. And it's like, oh, CS became, oh, computer is like completely. acceptable along with doctor engineer wonderful wonderful that's the good one right so that was that was what happened like we were given we were given this path and we were told by our elders that if you follow this path you will be happy in life and it turned out that that's like the biggest scam of that's the biggest scam and it's not really their fault and then they get really fucking confused because they're like i don't understand why you just don't do what i tell you to do like this is the way to be happy. And then you have conflict with them, right? You're like, no, but this

doesn't make me happy. And they're like, you're dumb. You'll be happy when you're 40. Just do what I'm telling you to do. Happiness comes later. Like you fucking kids trying to be happy. It's not about happiness. You'll be happy when you're 40. Trust me. And that's what we were told. So we were given the promise of a generation. Promise of a generation turned out to be a lie. And I don't really blame them for it. I mean, I used to. But I think like that was that was the fore formula that worked for their generation. Like, if you wanted to leave India, so my parent, my dad grew up in an eight by 10 room that had eight people living in it.

Eight people lived in an eight by ten room. At nighttime, they would pack up the kitchen and they would like lay out sleeping bags. They're not sleeping bags, but like mats. And then one person would sleep outside the door in like the doorway. like in the entryway, right? That's where they grew up. Their life was different. Meaning and happiness were irrelevant. It was like, we've got to survive because there was like rationing and like you had to stand in line for an hour to get like a pound of sugar and you could get another pound of sugar like a month later. It's just a different world that they grew up in. And so all of these

feelings became very irrelevant because it was about survival. And they saw opportunity to like come to the United States and like they saw a particular way to do that and they did that. And then they could do things like afford cars and then they could do things like buy like a thousand pounds of sugar for people back home. And so that was that was what they grew up with. I mean, I think immigrants is probably a little bit more extreme. But I think if you look at even like Caucasian people or like Americans or Canadians from like 60 years ago, is the same way. You could support a family with like one income and a bachelor's degree. Bachelor's degree doesn't get you shit now. So the first thing is that I think the biggest problem is that we were led to believe something that is actually incorrect.

And so I think the real challenge here is that we've had to figure out. And I don't think anyone has really, I mean, we're doing this, but I don't think many people stop and really think a little bit about the fact that we have to find our own way forward in this. We're not going to find an answer from somewhere else because those answers just don't work anymore. it's like the test has changed. So the answer key from like 50 years ago doesn't work anymore. And what I'm hearing from you guys is like autopilot. So what is autopilot? It can be a couple of different things, right? Like so gaming to manage your emotions and things like that.

But essentially like, I mean, it doesn't surprise me that the best result that Inasi has ever gotten is 50% because I think he's doing something that he gives no shits about. And when you take a human being and you make them like give a hundred percent effort, for something that they give no shits about, 50% is pretty good. Right? And I hear it from Straycat, too, that, like, there is an assumption about how human beings interact and relate to each other, and she has social anxiety. So those assumptions don't apply to her.

She's playing a different game. She was also taught, like, a particular way to socially behave with other people and what you're supposed to do. She was also given a formula. Go out, make friends, say hi to people. Be more active. Just get out of the house. Just get out of the house.

Just be more active. Just get out of the... But Stray Cat, just get out of the house. You'll make friends. It's the promise of a generation that's fucking wrong. The world that we live in is fundamentally different. And so I think the biggest problem that all you guys have is autopilot. You know, so I mean, I'm going to say biggest, like, several times because I think there are several biggest problems.

So you guys, I just... So the first thing is that I think you guys have to stop living on autopilot. And that's hard. Right? So when Zill talks about not living on autopilot, like, what is the emotion that arises? Zill, you can't answer, by the way. Okay. What is the emotion that arises for Zill when you stop living on autopilot?

Panic. Absolutely. Yeah, sure. Right? That's what's holding you back. I mean, so, so, Stray Cat was saying that she has a lack of direction and lacks meaning in her life. Well, let me tell you guys something. If you major in something that you don't care about and you have a life of 35 years of a successful career spending eight hours a day doing something that you don't care about, your life is going to be meaningless.

Just how it works. You guys are looking for meaning in something that you fundamentally give two shits about. So you're not going to find it there. Now, the challenge is like what keeps you guys from moving forward? I think it's fear and panic. Absolutely. And this is where we kind of get to this whole conundrum of like, is the world the problem or are you the problem?

And I think Rune put it beautifully that the world makes you into the person that you are today. But now this is where it gets really tricky, right? Because who determines who you are tomorrow? Ourselves. I mean, that sounds like a feel good kind of answer. Do you guys actually believe that? No. Half.

Right? Because my response to you, I mean, I get, I get Lotus. this is Dr. K-stream and we're supposed to be like positive and wholesome and have breakthroughs. But like if you determine who you are tomorrow, like why did you end up where you are today? Right? Does that make sense? Like who determines who you are today? If you're saying that you control who you are tomorrow, who was in control yesterday and how did you end up where you are today? That doesn't make sense to me. It's like putting the blame on yourself. Right? So, so hold, so hold, on a second. So now straight cat, like now we got to be, we got to be, we got to be careful with

ourselves. If we have blame, then we have power. You can't have one without the other. So which is it? Does that make sense to you guys? Can't have it. Good. Your turn to think. I think that's what makes the blame hurt though is because it's like, oh, I was in charge of, I was responsible of the situation and I fucked it up. Exactly. Okay. So then we come back to control, right? So like, did you really fuck it up? It usually feels like I do. Hold on.

You do or you did? Big difference. Are you referencing like today versus yesterday? What do you mean? Yes. Absolutely. That's exactly what I'm referencing. I think it depends on, I guess, how much resilience I have when I wake up in the morning.

If I can continue to fight that fight, you know? Okay. So if you don't have enough resilience in the morning, whose fault is that? I see. What do you see? Help the rest of us see, Roon. Well, I think it just basically articulating how complicated this gets, because it feels complicated. It's like, it's still my responsibility.

I still see it like that, but at the same time, maybe give yourself a break every now and then. What do the rest of you all think about that? I think like give yourself a break. Like for me, that that feels as if like, oh, if I'm giving myself a break, then like where am I displacing all that feelings to? That's sort of like my internalization of like giving myself a break almost. Like I feel like when you said like surviving, I feel as if like autopiliting, like this all connects.

Like I autopilot so I can survive. And so therefore I can't give myself a break because like I have to like, these things. Yeah, right. So that's the panic and the fear. Because unless you continue living your life, like, you can only, like, if you stop going on autopilot and you give yourself a break, then, like, you're afraid that the world is going to come crashing down. Straycat said panic. Like, Straycat, what do you think, what do you think the panic is? Like, can you describe that for us? Um, well, for me, it's like literally a panic. panic attack, but in like a more, I'm not sure, like, it's really just uncertainty and like the unknown.

Yeah. So what do you guys think about? Like, just think about that for a second. I mean, the Dumer, this is very different, okay? The Dumer knows what's happening on the outside world? The outside world is known. It's fixed. It's given. That's why there's no hope. Does that make sense? The outside world has been solved for. But what you guys are describing to me is very different. It's actually like the unknown. In a sense, it's not, I think what this means is that there's an autopilot you and the autopilot you is the dumer. And the autopilot you like looks into the future and knows that there is no hope for you.

And then there's another part of you that understands that there is another outside world there that is uncertain and unknown. But you guys are all actively choosing to go on autopilot and pick the Dumer's world. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think it relates to one part of my life especially. Like, in my education, I've always just listened to what my parents say when I ask for help. like I'm always uncertain if I should keep going. But then I think of if I stop doing this course and go to something else, I've never done this sort of,

I've always been sort of doing IT my whole life. So that's what I'm going into. But if I'm being completely honest, I feel like something else would be better. But the uncertainty stops me from trying or doing anything other than what I'm currently going down. Yeah. So how much, like who here is? is living with

is living with actually not is afraid of living with uncertainty right are like other people do you guys feel

similar to a Nazi in the sense that there's another path that you could walk but you're terrified of what'll what's at the end of that path

because you don't know yeah I agree how so Lotus let's say even if I did you know pursue colony arts

or whatever else in post-secondary, even if I did complete all of that, I don't know what I would do with it afterwards. I don't know. I don't know, out of all the paths that I can take, I don't know where any of it will lead me to. How do you live with that? How do you live with uncertainty?

I don't know. Strycat, what do you think? How do you deal with your panic? I kind of don't, to be honest. It feels like it takes control of me instead. So I tend to just avoid things that cause that panic in the first place. Yeah.

And I'm just kind of living without really doing anything. Yeah. So I avoid things that cause the panic in the first place. That is the fucking definition of autopilot becoming an engineer. Right? Your whole lives, guys, are built around the avoidance of uncertainty. of the road that you have not walked. And the problem here is that when you look at the road that you are walking,

you see doom and gloom at the end of it. And the thing is, that's not a cognitive bias. It's not because you guys are fucking depressed. It's because you guys are smart. It's because every step along that road has been doom and gloom. And then you're like, I've been getting 50%, like, you know, going back to Anasi, he's been trying really hard and the best he can do is 50%. And he's like, if I continue,

studying in IT, the most I'm ever going to be able to get is 50%. And so you look at a life and it's a doomer because the best you could, if you give a hundred, all you're going to get is 50. That is a bad world to live in. But then we kind of circle back and we think about this for a little bit. And we see that there are a couple of core things. The first is the avoidance of uncertainty. The fear of like what is the world going to look like?

And that's a reasonable fear. two. We can kind of get into how that is, how that works. And then there's also like a couple of other things which I can't, haven't been able to quite tie together. One is like what the sense of isolation is. And the third is, um, yeah, a sense of how did you get to be here and who's responsible for being, like where you are now and who's responsible for what happens in the future. and you guys want to say that you're responsible, but the more I kind of like chip away at that, it seems like you guys aren't actually so sure.

Right? And this goes back to like what Rune was saying about being resilient. He's like, depends on how resilient I am that day. And I was like, okay, well, what determines how resilient you are? Like, whose fault is that? Right. So the first thing, so let's like think about. So are those like three topics that we can try to dig into?

Does that sound reasonable? Do you guys think those are like worthwhile things to talk about? Yeah, because like if I see it as like sort of like an umbrella, like those all those three things fall under the umbrella like the dumber kind of yeah. Yep, but I think it's more than one thing. So I think there's uncertainty about the road not taken. There's the security of being on autopilot. That's one thing. Second thing is like what's going on with isolation. And the third thing is like who is responsible for your life. Now the next thing I'm going to ask you guys is I see I sense. a subtle change in this group. How do you guys feel right now? Nervous.

In a different way from the beginning? No, I'm actually a little less nervous, to me honest. So what do you feel nervous about Straycat? Um, just being on stream, really. Okay, so you feel a little less nervous, but essentially the same quality of nervousness. Yeah.

And Asi, how do you feel? I don't know. You don't know? What are you doing right now? Smiling. Why? I don't know. Right?

So you were smiling before I asked you how you were feeling. Did you notice that? No. Okay. You've been smiling for a little while now. Any idea why that is? I mean, now you're smiling because maybe you feel embarrassed and you just noticed you're smiling. Yeah.

No, I don't know. because we're getting somewhere. Is that what you think? Actually, that's not the right question. Is that how you feel? Yeah, I think with the three topics, it sort of hits right where the things that don't feel.

Do you know how to describe what you're feeling right now? Not really, no. Does anybody else have a sense of when you look at, when you guys look at a Nazi's face, what do you think he's feeling? I think he's having a good, time. Yeah. Anasi, how many people have told you that maybe school is a not where you should

be? I've brought that into because I feel like a lot of people, I feel a lot of people tell you, so I know Anasi and Stray, so I'm familiar with kind of the stuff they talk about. So if I'm like, if I'm asserting some things, that's wise because we talked about it before. But it kind of feels like, I know, kind of feels like Anasi is told a lot of times, just, just work harder at school. Just do school more. Oh, God, that sounds like a terrible idea to me. Yeah. Just to work harder is like the worst strategy in the universe.

Like, it's like telling stray cat, just leave the house more. Just get out of, like, depression's not that bad. Just get out of bed. Jump out of bed. I once had someone tell me that their solution to depression was to jump out of bed. Not get out of bed, leap out of bed. And they said that if I can leap out of bed, then my depression is cured. You should tell your patients to jump out of bed.

I was like, all right, man, I'll do that. It's fucking dumb advice. It's not how it works. Trying harder. So if at first you don't succeed, don't try, try again. If at first you don't succeed, try it a different way. Like, you know, I mean, anyway, don't get me started on ranting on another topic. So let's talk about uncertainty, isolation, and agency.

Okay? these are our three topics. So let's kind of bang them out. So we're going to be a little bit more quick about them. So when you guys think about uncertainty, like, what do you think would happen to your life if you started taking the road that you're uncertain where it leads? It's scary to think.

What's scary about it? What's scary about it? We'll get to ruin some fucking relentless positivity in a second. So like, okay, if I can provide like a game right now, So it's like, I play a little bit of Dota. So it's like, who makes like the guys for Dota? I forgot who. But like, if I play Dota, it's like, okay, I know that I want to do well.

So Dota life, right? I'll make those analogies, right? Okay, so I'll follow this guide. Hence the guy is sort of like the boomers talking down. It's like, hey, just get these items and then get, do this item path and you'll be fine. Right? And so it's like, okay, I'll just follow this guide and see if I can win the Dota match. But, and then like to think to like veer away.

Like, sure there's other guides, but to think that's like, I can choose my own items and play how I want, I don't know if it's going to give me the same results. And so, like, that I have experienced already via autopilot. So I'm going to, I'm going to give you sort of like, I'm going to modify your analogy a little bit, okay? So let's say you're playing Dota. So like, what position do you play in Dota? I always played support. Okay. So I like playing support too.

So like, let's say that someone says, like, if you want to win games, like someone says, like, someone says, Here's how you win a game of Dota. You play anti-mage. You farm for 45 minutes. And then you go 27-0 and 15. And they say, this is the way to play. Yeah. And then what happens is you play anti-mage, right?

Their guide, like, you look at their guide and their guide is spot on. They're like, wow. And they're like, look, if you want to just, if you want to see it happen, you don't have to look at my guide. Like, just look at Artizzi streaming and just watch him do it. Like, look at all these hard carries. Like, they fucking own the games. They win like millions.

of dollars using this strategy. So you should use it to. And then what happens when you play anti-Mage, Zill? I tell my teammates so much. Yeah. You know why you tell your teammates? Because I'm probably bad at it. Absolutely. And like not doing what Artis is doing?

Absolutely. So I follow the guide. I play Antimage and I fucking get owned. I'm 08 and 15 at the end of the game. And then the guy comes back and he's like, dude, you just got to follow the guide, man. Just follow the guide. But your experience is causing you to, like, lose MMR

like game after game after game. You're getting crushed. What happens when you play support? It goes back up. Or like, it's more like one more enjoyable because I know what I'm doing, I guess. So like following guy, I think it's like, I'm used to it. But those are all like different also things too.

But generally the feeling is that I find that, hey, I play bad. The feeling is that you played bad when? Oh, sorry. If I play support, I play better. You play better. Yeah. And it's more fun.

Yeah. So this is what you guys have to understand about like the promise of a generation, which is that it's a lie, right? Like it's not that it's like a pure lie. It's just that like I think your analogy is beautiful, Zill, because it's like they're giving you a guide for like a strategy and a character that you do not want to play. and when you try to play that character, you find that you suck at it.

And then the problem here is that your whole life you've been playing... So like, imagine you're playing Dota and you've never played before and like you've never played support. All you've been doing is like following anti-mage guides. And you think that Dota's a shitty game because all you ever do is first pick anti-mage. That's what your life is like.

Because all you've been doing is picking anti-mage. You've never given yourself the chance. chance to like pick a dazzle or a lion or like an Oracle or whatever. Like you haven't actually tried like, because you're like, but, but how am I supposed to carry a game with Oracle? Like the guide says I have to go 27 and no. I've watched Artisi's stream. But like how am I supposed to like win a game with a support? Like I can't, I can't build like how does that even work? And so your your mind's ability to even consider what is down the road of uncertainty? Like you can't even think about it. You can't. You can't

calculate it. But it doesn't mean that there isn't like lots of success possible. It's just you have no idea how to predict it, which is because you've never played a game as a support. So then the next question is, so for Zill, and sorry if this is a little bit Dota specific, we'll get more general. But so Zill, like what do you like what do you think about uncertainty now? Like what's the solution to fearing the uncertainty of your life? Oh, I've been a lot of introspection. And like I actually have not been able to answer that or ask myself that question. So it's like, It's like a wall up for me, first of all. Well, I'll give you a quick answer, a quick hint.

You're not going to find the answer through introspection. Right? Like, if I'm a Dota player, so I'll ask you in another way, if I'm a Dota player and I keep on losing playing anti-mage, and I suck at it, and I'm like losing and losing and losing. You guys understand what I'm talking about, like, even if you don't know who anti-mage is? Play league. Yeah. Okay. So, like, you know, so it's like.

like ADC. It's like the way you win a game league is you pick an ADC and then you just go 27 and 0. And then you pick an ADC and then you go 0 and 8. So what do you do? Like if I... Take the game. Take notes, room.

Yeah, uninstall the game, right? So let's steer clear of suicide. Okay, boys and girls. So I'm asking you, so practically, Zill, if I was playing Dodo for the first time and I played 50 games of anti-mage and I won two of them and I say this game sucks. What is the practical advice you would tell me? Try a different hero. Absolutely. But then I come to you and I say, but Zill, like, I don't know how to win a game with that other hero.

My, I guess like, but the academia is like, academia side means like, well, just play an hour 50 games and see, and compare to the the win rates between the 250 game samples. Is that what you would tell me? tell me to play another 50 games as an anti-mage or? Or as a support, as like the new role. And but I say, but, but I may not win. I don't, I could lose, Zill. What would you say?

My gut reaction is like, just try. And like, that's sort of like, I don't know, like, that's like disingenuous, I feel like. It's like, I know that they want to win the game, but it's like, you got try. What, what does trying do? Gives you more information to see. if you're good at the new role that you're playing. That's it, man. That's it.

Right? That's exactly what you need to do. You need more information about the road that you have not taken. Because you're like, I don't remember if you're studying engineering or what, but like, I don't know what you're studying or what career path you're on. But like the basic problem is that you've been following the anti-mage guide and what you need to do is play a few games. is other things to see if you like it or see if it offers any chance of success. And understand that when you play a new game, you're actually going to be worse at it than what

you're doing now. I guess like for my professional career, like following the anti-mage guide kind of did work. So like, sure. But I have other problems or I have like other facets that that analogy can definitely apply to. So yeah, yeah. What do you guys think about? I don't know how much of this conversation you all have been able to follow, but

all of it. I'm on the same page. Rune, can you explain to me what we just talked about? Yeah, basically, if something is, if you're unhappy with a, you want to say it with the analogy or you want to- Without the analogy, please. Okay. So basically, if you are unhappy with the way, the strategy that you're applying to

your own life or whatever you're doing in your daily life, If you're unhappy with that, you have to be willing to go out in a limb, fuck up and get dominated, which is the league analogy. You have to wheel into fail and learn how to do something that you will enjoy more. What do you think about that? It's worked for me. I do music. So I spend a lot of time writing and producing music. I've been doing it for like three years now.

And in the past like three months, I've decided to put more effort and more energy into it. and a little bit less effort into, like, school. And it has its own, like, hardships, but it's way more fulfilling. What do other people think about what Roon just said? Sounds pretty good. What sounds good about it, Lotus? That's refining something that's new and fulfilling, and that sounds like you want to keep pursuing it.

So I want to just be a little bit clear. I don't think that it was new and fulfilling. So this is an important distinction, okay? This is part of the problem that gets us stuck. We think something is new and fulfilling. Rune, when you started music, was it new and fulfilling? No, I was confusing and weird. So would you say that the less new it got, the more fulfilling it became?

Absolutely not. In fact, I think the more I've stuck with it, the more fulfilling it's gotten. Okay. I think that's what I asked you, but that's okay. So basically, when it's new, it's not fulfilling. And the more that you explore it, at the beginning, it's fucking confusing and weird and you don't know what you're doing. But fulfillment doesn't come at the beginning, it comes at the end. Yeah.

And there's a period of time that has confusion and weirdness. Yeah. Right? So like, let's just think about that when we're thinking about alternatives. So this is where we kind of get into expectations. and fantasies and stuff like that. There's this other idea that the boomers give us that if you try something, you'll like it.

Right? They say like, oh, just go out and like meet new people. Everything will be fine. No, it's going to be fucking awkward and awful. That's not what they tell you. They tell you, they say exactly what Lotus said, oh, I should try something that's new and fulfilling. Nobody.

You should try something that's new and difficult and awkward. And over time, if you're lucky, it will become fulfilling. And if you're unlucky, then what do you do? Try something new. Now, let me ask you guys something. Is what we're talking about now just try? No.

It's about experiencing and learning, right? So, like, how is what we're talking about different from just go out and try something new? Or is it the same? No. There's more lenience in it and more, like, you don't have to stick to it and keep trying. You can just find what fits. I think like the education part, right? Because like you can try something but not have any sort of like wanting of education.

But when you told me it's like you should try something else to figure it out or like to learn something. To me that's like educating myself on this topic. So I can try and educate. And I think there's also a difference between just trying. Like I think that's how you explain it right. I'm asking you guys. I don't care what I believe. The question is, what do you guys think?

If I were to, if I had started this and you guys were saying, oh, yeah, I don't like what I'm doing. And I said, just try something else. Is that the same as where we are now? Right. So what are the key things? So Stray Cat and Zill have mentioned a couple of things, right? It changes the perception around why you're trying. The just try is try for the goal of success.

but now what I think Stray Cat said it really well, there's leniency in this. There's a presumption of failure. There's a presumption of fucking up. And there's a presumption that the goal here is, this is no presumptum. The goal is actually not to succeed. What is the goal?

To learn? Absolutely. So I think the problem is if Anasi wants to get 100 on something that he, relating to school, I think it's got to be something that he gives a shit about. Right? Like, that's, like, there's no way you're going to get 100 if you don't care about what you do. And this is where, you know, we've touched on meaning and fulfillment.

And it sounds like Rune has found some degree of fulfillment in music. And that's also how it works. It's like, you find fulfillment in playing the position of the game that you enjoy. And the problem is that we have all these guides telling us that if we want to win, you should play this position. And that too is kind of interesting because if you look at the game of life, there are some successes that are so much more noticeable that people can point to them. Right. And like for like the mobile players, like think about this for a second. The reason that the anti-mage is 27 and O, or the reason that your ADC is having a wonderful game is because of like a supports warning, a supports position. But none of that, no boomer can point to that and tell you that that's the reason that that, like that's not what you see, right?

Does that make sense? That some paths to success are subtle and difficult to detect. But the problem is that we get biased by the overnight success stories. We get biased by like the so-and-so who like became an investment banker and was your colleague and you guys were neighbors and now he's so successful and now you're a piece of shit and he's married and is going on a honey. We look at some successes and we try, but we don't realize that there are equally good successes that are just hard to detect and subtle, and that your path in life isn't going to

look like the fantasy that you come up within your mind. So it's my path to success basically in trying something new until I find the right thing for me, for example. Ask these guys. I don't know the answer to that question. What do you guys think? He keeps mentioning culinary. He said that a few times.

I mainly switch out of that because even co-workers are telling me that maybe it's not a maybe it's not something that suits me or maybe I'm not like cut out for it is it something that you're proud of or just something you actually enjoy? It was a little bit of both until I realized how stressful it became.

The other day it's like it doesn't pay as much as I would like it to. So what do you guys are you guys? think Lotus should do. He's 21, right? Yeah. Are you America? I'm in Canada. In Canada. I worked as a chef for a little bit and I hated it and made the decision to stop. But I also was really bad at it and didn't care about it. So I think it kind of matters how much do you care about it and how much do you want money? So my plan right now is actually just to go back to school for a trades program. it was just like completely different right and the idea is to actually just try it out see how it work

see how I like it if I don't like it so I want to offer just a little bit of advice here so the other thing that I want you guys to understand is that so I think going back and getting a trade getting trained in a trade is like a good idea but I want you guys to understand that getting trained in a trade or going back to school is not the career that you're going to do for the rest of your life like do you guys know what my job is kind of funny question. What's my job? What do I do?

You're like a couple of things, right? Psychiatry, faculty. What is this? This is what I'm passionate about. Talking to domeries? Yeah. Is this what I trained to do?

Not really? Exactly. So understand that what you... So fulfilling a certain financial security is one thing. Finding work that you find fulfilling is something else. So Lotus, I think if you want to get a trade degree and get a job that pays pretty well, like, in HVAC or something like that, like, by all means, go for it. But don't stop there and understand what you're getting into is not necessarily a fulfilling career, that you have some financial needs, and that, like, you should continue looking for the things that make you happy.

And that over time, so I do believe that the world rewards just from a Darwinian or evolutionary perspective, people who really, really care about stuff. Because I think the world is filled with people like Anasi who give two shits about their job and produce 50% quality work. And so every now and then someone comes along who genuinely cares about what they do and there's like financial reward in that. That's my general belief in observation. So I'd say for Lotus, like you guys also have to understand that fixing your life is going

to be a series of like missteps, right? But you have to take the step that, like, you got to take now. So if you want to get like a trade degree, by all means, go for it. But don't assume for a second that the fulfillment that Rune gets from making music is going to come from that. It may come from that. You could end up being lucky. But your journey does not stop there. That's the other big lie that the boomers taught us, which is that your education is your career.

And your career should be enjoyable and fulfilling. Like, I don't accept that for a second. Like, I think careers can change wildly And that what you find fulfillment from Is something that you should work on And then like the other thing that boomers Like, I don't agree with it all Is that like boomers think that

You should have like a job And then you should have hobbies. No, I think the world is quickly becoming a place Where your hobbies are worth just as much as a job And what I mean by that is the barriers to publication or lower. So like you have solo dudes who will like create video games and put them on Steam and we'll make tons of money from it because it's what they care about. And they have a job that whole time. You have people who work like, you know,

overnight shifts at hotels and like write books because that's what they care about. That's what I think you guys should do. If you need to do some kind of work in the meantime, like the reason I'm a psychiatrist is because I have to support a family. I love talking to gamers. That's what I love doing. And this is also where right now I think the real problem is that you guys gravitate and I'm sorry if I'm not getting to the other topics, but I feel like preaching. Is that okay? Is that? That's fine. Go for it, my dude. Okay. So I think the other thing is that you guys really have to think a little bit about,

you know, right now you're avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. But the way for you guys to like study hard and even if it sucks is for you to have studying be in service to another goal. So like if Anasi says, okay, I want to like write, you know, a fantasy fiction novel. And in order to do that, I have to support myself for some time. I think then his ability to study is going to be way better. Does that make sense? Like, I've got to support myself for some way while I like figure out what I want to do. But the problem is that right now school is the goal for you guys. It's not a means. Your job is the goal. it's not a means.

And it's a goal that you guys don't care about. So you're not going to give your best. So I think you could get a job, by all means, be financially independent. But understand that the financial independence is just money so that you can actually get on to living the life that you want. Does that make sense? Questions? Yeah. So like the question I have, it's like if we acknowledge that like the fulfilling, the fulfillment and then like the money, like financial securities are two different things, then like what are like the boomers essentially like reaction?

like, boomers reaction to each individual thing, right? Or is it like, do they just lump them together? The boomers don't care about fulfillment. Like, that's the basic problem. So I think, like, they lived in a day and time where, like, the stress on our mind and what we care about and stuff like that. It's changed. Something has changed within humanity, like, over the last 20 or 30 years. I don't quite know what it is.

But fulfillment has become way more important. I think there's a reason why there's been an explosion of yoga across the world. and it's, I think, because people that are looking for more peace and harmony and fulfillment. And I think part of that is probably because, like, the close, so what's actually, I just maybe figured it out.

You guys know what Maslow's hierarchy of needs is? Mm-hmm. Yep. So like 50 years ago or 100 years ago, where were we on Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a society? Survive. Absolutely, right? So that's at the bottom. Where are we now?

Self-actualization. Yeah, self-actualization. Yeah. Absolutely, right? So automation, lab grown food, universal basic income. Huh? I'm still in love and belonging. I don't know what you guys are talking about. But my point is that, like, I think the stresses on humanity are changing. We're like, we're not the things that we used to worry about or like we're closer to the top.

Like shelter and stuff is like, you know, for the most part isn't like as big of a problem. Infant mortality 100 years ago was like 20%. Just think about that. You know, like, not many kids die now. And that's what they used to worry about. And, like, now the closer we are towards the top, the more, like, the things that we have to worry about become mental. So the boomers just don't understand that.

And it's not their fault. It's just we're living in a different world. So I got to run in about 15 minutes. So I'm going to give you guys a choice. Do you guys want to talk about isolation or agency? I say isolation. Isolation. Isolation.

So let's talk about it. What makes you feel isolated? Loneliness. Having no friends. Okay. So let's think about this for a second, okay? So if you have no friends, let me just think for a second about how to try to do something substantive in 15 minutes about this. I have two friends that are in here.

Yeah, so do you feel I, so let's just think about that for a second. How much do online relationships matter? To me, like, it means a lot. But for, like, your average person who goes outside has real friends, I don't know. Do you think that you don't have real friends? No. Like, in real life, no. Okay.

So by real friends, you don't mean, like, authentic friends. You mean, like, physical friends. Yeah. I'm just thinking for a second. What do you think it is that makes you feel? feel isolated for the other folks? I spend like all my time home alone. Okay.

Whenever I'm not at uni, I don't have a job. And even throughout school, I'd pretty much always just come home, play games by myself, just in my room. It's pretty much where I stay. Well, hold on. Are you playing single player games? No, normally multiplayer, but alone. Okay.

Hmm. I think this may take more than 15 minutes on, unfortunately. Part two? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think I want to do this justice, and I'm just not seeing, I think this is a whole different issue. Yeah. Like, I don't think this is actually related to the, like, what we've been talking about for an hour and a half.

I mean, it's maybe related, but I think it's, it's its own thing. Like, how I tie it in, it's like, for me, at least, like, the autopilot also drove into the isolation where it's like, okay, in the autopilot, like, algorithm, it's like, being alone is fine. But like, that's how I program my autopilot, right? Mm-hmm. Like that uncertainty of like, oh, what if I let, if I open myself up, right? Like, what, what happens? So it's like, that's how I tie it at least.

Yeah. So I think we have to, you guys know, like, how, you know, going out and trying new things is sort of the conclusion we came to. But we didn't just say, just try new stuff, right? there's like a different way of understanding, like walking the road of uncertainty. I think we have to do the same thing with isolation. It's not as simple as saying, just go out and make friends. I think it's understanding. And I just don't, I don't understand it.

So I don't understand what it is that makes you guys feel isolated. And you guys are giving me some really good answers, but I think actually there's more to it. So I think the problem isn't just that you don't know people. I think the problem is that when you meet, or a problem, is that when you meet people, you can't show them who you are. And there's no point in, like, going out and being fake. Like, that's not, like, even if you guys have friends or hanging out with people, I think if you can't show them who you are, it's still isolating.

So that they're different perspectives. There are different layers to this that I'm picking up. Right? And I just, I want to do it justice, and I just don't think we can do that in, like, another five to ten minutes. but um so apologies for that guys i've noticed something uh on the server i lurk around the healthy gamer discord sometimes and um this seems like a really common theme on the server actually just people who don't

have a whole lot of like real life connections and you asked earlier whether or not like online friends and real life friends can be you know if they're at the same value i think they can be but i think oftentimes there's something about being in a room with some someone that really isn't fully replaceable. I completely agree. So I'll give you guys, so in the last five to ten minutes, I'll give you guys a chance to ask questions or anyone have like kind of closing thoughts or let's start with questions. So I had a question about like back to like the Dota stuff where it's like, like, um, like say it's like,

oh, I can't. It's like my thing, right, was like, oh, they're winning because, uh, and I don't. is broken. Like, like their success, like, is that like the Dumer mentality where it's like,

oh, they're doing well, not because they're falling the guy, but it's like, oh, that item is broken or like that character is broken.

Like, would that follow under the Dumeric mentality kind of? Because it's like, it's not putting anything on you, but like something else, something external. I don't, I don't quite follow your analogy,

but my instinct is not really. I don't know that that's the boomer mentality. Are you saying Dumer or Boomer? Doomer. Doomer. Yeah. So I think that that is, so here's what I'm hearing you saying. So I think this kind of actually goes back to agency and like who's responsible.

And I think a lot of times people attribute other people's successes to circumstances. And I think that that's not, I mean, some of that's true, right? So some people have more advantages than you do in life. And so they have a leg up. And that's true. Is that fair? No. Is it equal? No. But I think generally speaking, when someone talks about something being OP, that's ego more than anything else. Right? That's like you don't want to admit, like you don't want to look at your own shortcomings. And you want to just simplify and protect yourself from where you fall short. So you call something OP. Like, you know, if you just think about it in a video game, when someone calls something OP, what they really mean is this person is beating me.

And I can't accept that the reason that they're beating me is because they're playing better. So instead, what I'm going to say is that they're OP, right? That item is OP. And, I mean, sometimes things are OP. But, you know, I think for the most part, like, if you're thinking in the mentality of, you know, someone else has, like, an advantage over you and that's the reason they're successful. like I think that that's not really a it's not a productive way of thinking

whether it's right or whether it's wrong. It just doesn't help you. Because the issue is like, what do you have? Right? And how do you get to where you want to go? And sometimes you have to come up with an unorthodox strategy to like move forward in your own life. Which I think is unfortunate because the boomers had a formula.

Like that's the other big thing. No one gave us like there's no formula for us because this is new. Like the the epidemic of loneliness is like new. Like human beings used to hang out because we didn't have technology to separate us. Like we just, you know, now it's like between Uber Eats and like grocery delivery and all kinds of other stuff.

Like I never have to leave my, I can live in the middle of a million people and never see any of them. And so I think part of the challenge is that we have to figure out how we're going to move forward. And that's going to happen from hopefully conversations like this because I don't have all the answers, guys. Like you guys know. I mean, you guys know what it's like to be in your shoes,

and you guys have to help each other out because I don't know, I mean, I'm in a different stage of my life, and y'all need to help each other out in terms of figuring out, like, how do you deal with isolation? I'm not sure, but I think we should continue to talk about it. I'm happy to play referee, but y'all have to be the ones that play the game. Other questions?

And we're talking about the whole guy going out on a limb and trying new things and failing and learning. I feel like over my, I've been doing music since I was like eight, but I had, I've been taking it more seriously for the past few years. And over that time, it, there's a lot of moments where like I almost quit or almost gave up. So I'm like, this is, I'm awful at this. I'm just terrible at this. I just hate everything I make.

I'll make a song. And then the next day I'll be like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. And I think that comes down to a lot of like just disproportionate self-loat. self-loathing. And it's something I still struggle with. And I don't, I haven't really found like a good way to deal with it other than just to stop thinking about that and go to the next song. Makes something new. Do you have any like, no insight? Yes and no. So I think you figured out the most important solution. So I don't know if you guys, I mean, so people think that I'm good at what I do on stream. And like I was a really

bad therapist for like three years. And I really started to become a better, it's not even therapy. I started to become a better therapist when I stopped doing therapy. So literally what happened is like I would, I got taught a certain way to do therapy and then I was bad at it. And I think that what you said is actually the most important thing, which is to like, don't let the way that you feel about your performance affect whether you try again. Right. Whether you try again shouldn't be determined by your performance, it should be determined by your passion towards the subject. Like, don't just keep trying. I mean, it's fine to quit.

I think it's good to quit. But quit for the right reasons. Quit because you actually don't care about it. Don't quit at something because you're bad. This cycle every single time for me is like I'll make something. I like it for like two hours and then I hate it. And I don't do any music for like 24 hours. and then I hear something, then I'm like, holy shit, that's beautiful.

And then I have to go do that. I'll hear like a new artist for like a new songout or something. So it's like this, like that inspiration, that passion comes back and drives me to do it again. Yeah. So what I hear there is that there is something inside you that longs to create music. And like you said, there's a somscar or like, you know, ball of self-loathing that comes out and likes to play from time to time. And understand that that ball of loathing is not actually you. it's just a ball of self-loathing

that has built up over years and years and years as you've become like a doomer some of the time and that's how it works so I want you guys to understand that the self-loathing that you have for yourself is not really the real you it's just like a cognitive pattern in your mind

you know like when you get a song stuck in your head and the song just kind of randomly pops up and like plays on autopilot for a while and then randomly goes away that's like a feeling of like self-loathing literally functions like that. It pops up. There are times where you're feeling okay,

and then the self-loatly just pops up. And it's like, hey, you fucking suck at life. And then you feel that way for a while. And for some people it's longer, and for some people it's less. And then it kind of leaves your mind for a while. And then you're kind of living and you're feeling good about yourself.

You're able to get out of bed. And that song pops up in here, oh, you suck at life. Right? So just because we have these cognitive things that exist within our mind, doesn't mean that they're true. They're not correct.

It doesn't mean you actually suck at life. And so just notice that that self-loathing arises. And like notice when it's there and notice this is part of the pattern and take some comfort and the fact that that's going to go away and your inspiration will return. So I think you're well on the right path. Good. That's good to hear. So I'm just going to ask people kind of for closing thought.

So what I'd love to hear is a little bit about, you know, how you found the session. And if you learned something, I'd love to hear what that was. If you felt like there are things that you'd still like to explore, I'd love to hear what that is as well. So I think we can maybe just go around the room. Oh, is that me starting? Sure. As far as learning something, I don't know. it's really just more a reflection of things that I've kind of thought or guessed at myself.

But hearing it from other people, I don't know, it kind of confirms it. I don't trust in my opinion as much as I'd say I trust in others. Excellent point. It's really nice to be able to, sorry. You go. You go. I'm kind of building on what Stray said. It's really nice to be able to, um,

go into the nuances of these things in a setting where everyone is on the same page already. And there's like a nice feeling of support, I think, just from that alone. Yeah, like you said, like because it's, we're talking about like nuanced things, like the doom and mentality can go so in depth into these nuanced things. And so I guess like the realization of like how much of like, like you said lowliness is a problem and like all these like factors. but in terms, and I acknowledge that, and in terms of sort of like the steps to go on a path of quote unquote fixing it

or dealing with it, I learned that's like I need to set myself in situations where I should try not to look at like the success or failure part, but more of the learning and teaching part in things I try. Yeah. I really liked the phrase set myself in situations. So I think that goes to the balance. We are still haven't teased apart about

what is the environment responsible for and what are you responsible for? Right? So what I like about that is it's not like all you or all the environment. It's not that the item is OP. It's not that you suck at the game. It's that there's an environment person interaction. And the better you set that up, the more likely you are, the more optimistic it sounds like you're going to feel. So we can get to that maybe next time.

Anasi? Next time. Yeah. It's pretty much the same what everyone else said, but the one thing I'd want to go into more is isolation. Okay. It's definitely a big thing for me. What about what the other people said kind of resonates with you? Just being able to bounce off ideas and how we all same in different aspects.

Okay. Thanks for sharing. And Lotus? So oddly enough, I'd say that, like, it's really reassuring to hear that. whenever I fall into a cycle of feeling all these negative thoughts and feeling very pessimistic and not wanting to get out of the bed, I don't have to leap out of the bed immediately and try to just, you know, man up and, like, take it all head on. It's okay to sort of take one step at a time and, you know, all of this self-loating or negative thoughts will dissipate and maybe I'll start feeling better over time. It's not instant transformation.

Yeah. Very well said. I think like change and growth and progress is not like, I think the other thing that I'm glad Lotus, it sounds like you're giving yourself a lot of time. Right. So that's the other big thing, which I love it if you guys could take away, is that give yourselves time to build the life that you want. It's not like you're going to switch majors and you're going to be happy. It's like exactly what Rune said, that he made music and it was actually shitty. It was like painful and uncertain and weird. and he stuck with it. He held on to, not held on, he listened to his inspiration.

And I think each and every one of you has something that, like, inspires you as well. It's just you've been taught this formula for success that has taught you to not listen to that part of yourself. But we live in a world where video games are the dominant form of entertainment. They've passed everything else, right? And like, that's actually really cool. Like, I'm thrilled about that. I'm thrilled that we live in a world where there are indie game studios that can build games that I like to play. Like, really, really remote games that, like, most people would not care about. And we live in a world where more people are writing than ever.

We live in a world where with things like Spotify, I can actually listen to Roon's music if he wants to upload it. Right? We live in a world where someone made the, you know, the pog, the cockpog, song, right? And like, like, just think about this for a second. The person who made the cockpog song is probably fucking depressed and isolated in a doomer. But they had a flash of inspiration and they created something beautiful.

Bro, get them in here where they had. Dude, it's, but just think about this. This is coming from our community. It's coming from you guys. And like, can't you see that no matter how depressed or down that person is, they've created something that is truly beautiful and has brought a smile. and joy to thousands of people. Beautiful.

And it's like 56 seconds of awfulness, but it's so wonderful. I'm equal parts mortified and flattered. I think that was the intention. Right? Like my kids are going to like hear that one day. Like can you guys think about the amount of dad embarrassment? Like once my kid is going to go to school at the age of 15 and one of their friends is going to play that on their phone. It's terrifying. Anyway. So listen, guys, I really loved

talking to you all. Clearly, I feel like we have more to go. Hopefully, this was helpful in some way. And I really appreciate you guys coming on and, you know, dealing with your own sense of, senses of anxiety or embarrassment about talking about this kind of stuff. I really commend you guys for doing this. I'm sure other people are going to find it very, very, very helpful. I certainly learned a lot. And I hope to learn more. And I hope I'll be able to help you guys more because, I mean, I don't think we're done. And I haven't fixed you all yet. I don't think you guys are fixed. But I really hope that you guys are able to sort of at least take one step forward. And then we can do this again sometimes. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, man. Take care.

Peace. Yeah. See us. All right, folks. That was enlightening. Song, LinkedIn, Discord. Oh, God. Okay. So I got to run. So just a couple of reminders. So first of all, thank you guys very much for all of the subs donations and even like Twitch

Primes and stuff. All that stuff is very, very helpful. Depending on what COVID does to the U.S. And if we're on lockdown, I'm going to try to focus. Like if I stop seeing patience, I'm going to try to focus on, you know, building content for healthy gamers. So thank you guys for donating and stuff and subscribing because that's, we've got some funds now so we can try to build some of that stuff. Some people pop on cat ears and call it a day. But you, your gorilla suit is so realistic,

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