HealthyGamerGG - Dr. K and Aba Atlas on Men's Issues

Episode Date: March 13, 2021

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Today's talk is really about masculinity, but more importantly, it's also like digging into how we form our views of masculinity and where our opinions come from. And a lot of the opinions that we have and feelings we have around gender roles are actually deeply rooted in personal experiences that have shaped the way that we think. And so I want people to understand that like if you really want to start to feel more comfortable with gender-related issues, whether they be societal or the ones that you sit with, exploring your own personal story is a wonderful way to kind of get a handle on how you see the world. Yeah. So how you've been, man? I've been pretty good. I've been actually pretty good. I, for the most part, I've just been

focused on working this pandemic, obviously being isolated, has its own set of issues. But overall, mental health and physical health have been pretty great. So can't complain. And remind me, last time we talked a little bit about was it your dad and grief and stuff? Yeah, yeah. So we talked about loved ones dying, how do you process and handle that? And how best to manage the loss of somebody close to you. And was that, did that help at all?

I mean, you don't know, I sort of feel like I'm fishing for a yes there. But I'm just genuinely curious. just like yeah yeah well i mean i think any opportunity to discuss something that you normally don't discuss is always a good thing uh it's always strange to discuss something that's very like intimate difficult on a very public platform uh because everyone wants to chime in with their opinions which is a bit of a strange thing for something you feel so personal uh but beyond that in terms of like how i feel on the inside uh much better yeah when you say everyone wants to chime in with their feelings who are you talking about uh you know honestly like i i i honestly like i

I feel this way every time. I generally dislike being in a vulnerable state on the internet. Sure. It's not, it's not generally my thing. So as a result, I think when people give me their feedback or they stop me, it's kind of weird to have a stranger being like, man, that moment about you and your dad really touched me. I'm just like, but I don't know you.

You know, it's kind of a weird feeling to have somebody. Because it feels like someone saw me naked and I don't know who they are, you know? You know, but you're the one doing the touching, apparently. Yes, yes, yes. But it's just, it feels very voyeuristic in a way. It's consensual, but it's still strange because I feel it's that parissocial relationship that people talk about a lot where people feel like they know you and they come up to you and they say all these like things about themselves. I'm like, I have no idea who you are, but you know this intimate part of my life. So that's a strange part about it.

Yeah. But I'm also kind of hearing that apparently people benefit. from your nakedness? Yes. I would I would agree with that notion, I think. That's weird, man. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

So, yeah. So that was, that was everyone's experience. And I think it was great to hear that folks had a very positive experience listening to that. So I'm happy about that portion of it for sure. Yeah. And just, you know, it's interesting.

And what do you go by again? I go by Abba. Normally, that's the name I go by. So, Abba, you know, just hearing you now, I'm sort of remembering how protective you are of other people. It's kind of interesting. Like, you know, you kind of, it's subtle. But like the way that you're kind of saying, you know, I appreciate that other people are getting helped. But I'm also kind of acknowledging that underneath that is sort of the I was still naked and it feels really awkward for me.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That feeling I don't think ever really goes away from me. Because I'm still a fairly private person, even though I do online stuff, you know, normally like pictures of my family or things like that that's going on my life. I don't really share with the whole world. Sure. So to share that.

Sure. I think it was something that was good for folks. But I think for me, it's always trying to find that good line between how much sharing is too much. Can you hold on just one second? I'm getting a call from my producer. No worries. Go ahead. Thank you very much, Abba.

I appreciate it. I might be peeking or something like that. I only got filters on my stream. So. So, Abba, let me ask you. This may sound like a kind of weird question because I get that we're, you know, having this conversation now. But how do you feel about coming back and maybe talking about something else and kind of being once again vulnerable in front of, you know? I think I do things that matter to me.

And so I think for me it's fun to do them, provided there's a purpose to them. I wouldn't do this gratuitously. So I think as long as there's a, there's a end goal in mind and there's something, you know, I think the conversation is beneficial. think it's something that people could gain from, then I'm fine with having it on this kind of platform. Okay. Okay. So I'm really hearing that there's sort of a greater good to be served here.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of people who identify with some of the issues that I mentioned in the email. So, you know, it's something I've discussed on my platform before. So I think having your take on it and a bit of a back and forth would benefit a lot of people. So you're doing this for other people?

Partially. I think it's also good for me. It's interesting. I feel like with this issue specifically, I mean, the one regarding to some of men's issues, I think I'm okay with things in a sense that I don't need a sense of catharsis. Like I think I've gotten mine per se. But I see, you know, it's weird because a lot of men, you know, hit me up and they're like, you're my mentor. And I'm like, I didn't sign up for all that. But I think it's because I identify with some of the stuff that we talk about.

And it's like some of the first time for a lot of them that they've heard it. So I recognize some folks do need it. Yeah. You're so precise with your language and your thought. You know, it's, it's interesting. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

I mean, just kind of like when you say, yeah, I mean, I appreciate it a lot. And I'm also noticing, Aba, maybe this isn't really what we kind of signed up for today. And so we don't have to talk about it. But I'm hearing also like a theme of like people, you know, like here you are mentoring people that you've never heard of and and, you know, opening people's eyes to things and, you know, having them feel like touched and they're growing. And then you're kind of like bewildered. And I'm just a little bit curious about, you know, what kind of expectation or pressure or like, how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? And I know it's kind of separate from maybe what we're going to be talking about today. But it's just it's so interesting because I'm hearing that theme kind of pop up over and over.

Like what are you to people? And how do you sit with what you are for other people? Yeah. Well, you know, I definitely get a sense of imposter syndrome, mostly because I don't think I've really had proper mentors most of my life. And so the idea of being a mentor to somebody else is definitely a little intimidating at times. And it doesn't feel consensual in some ways in the sense that like, I. I didn't choose this. I didn't accept anything, but you have these expectations.

And I think I'm managing it by reminding myself that I matter and that my well-being matter. So if it ever becomes too much to take time and to embrace that. And I think I also manage it by accepting that I, I've in a sense already been doing it with the things that I'm doing. So I just need to keep doing that. And I don't have to pile on myself a large amount of extra work because I think what I've been doing is enough for a lot of people. Well said. Really well said. And once again, well thought out, nuanced. You know, that you're okay doing this and then there are certain boundaries that you're going to maintain and respect. And that, you know, cool. So what did you want to talk about in terms of men's issues today? I sent a video that I kind of summarized that had you had an opportunity to watch it by any chance. No, so I actually purposely go into this stuff blind. Blind. Okay. Yeah. The only reason is because

sometimes I hate the idea of feeling redundant with some of the stuff, but I guess it is good to explain it for folks who haven't seen it. Well, if it's short, we could also just watch it together if you want. No, no, it's about 10 minutes. So probably best for me to just explain it. But my pet peeve with these kinds of discussions, it often feels like when they're had, if you talk about it too often, people start to be like, oh, here he goes again on this topic.

And, you know, I never want to seem whining because in my day-to-day life, I don't think this is something I necessarily talk about that often, but when I'm on the internet, it seems to come up a lot. Yeah. So, are you familiar with the red pill community? At least in terms of the dating sense? Yeah. And so some people would like send me links and they, they ask for my critique of it and how toxic some of it may be, whatnot. And essentially, the rebuttal I had was that I think for a long time, men haven't had spaces on any kind of platforms or media to see their issues and their problems reflected. in any kind of form. And they also oftentimes haven't had too many opportunities for guidance on how to approach women, on how to date effectively, on, you know, especially when you're expected to make the first step and to kind of put yourself out there in a lot of the times, like,

it's not that much guidance for young men. And I know it's an issue that I dealt with for a long time. And so I say that essentially even though I think the community has issues and some of the the rhetoric isn't always good. I think there is no alternative for a lot of men, or they feel like there is no one. And therefore, until something is presented, I think the idea of taking down the one space where men see these topics reflected, wouldn't be a good idea. That's a gist of it. Can you just help me understand or just help people who don't understand what red pill is?

Can you just explain it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's born from the matrix. And the idea of the red pill versus the blue pill is like Neo, the main character, It's a choice between choosing to see the world for what it is, the truth with the red pill or blue pill, which is to stay in this kind of virtual reality fiction type world. And so the term had a political meaning for some time, just for people who want to see the truth in life in general. But over the last, like I would say seven years, in a dating sense, a lot of men go there for pickup artist stuff, you know, seeing the world for what it is in the sense, like how women are doing really well and men are failing.

So that's some of the ideas that would be common in the Red Pill dating community. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really excited for this conversation because this is actually one of my favorite things to think about and favorite things to talk about. Okay. Why is that? You know, it's interesting. I'm not quite sure. But about two years ago, I sent an email to like a group of like close friends of mine just trying to figure out like what's like I felt like something is happening. with men. And for me, it started actually in a really bizarre way. I was doing, I was working in a prison and I was, you know, doing therapy with something like an inmate. And I was talking to him and he was in prison for dealing drugs. And so as we kind of like started talking and I started

getting to know him, so it turned out that he had three older sisters. And his older sisters kind of said to him that, you know, like it's your job is like the man of the thing. family to like provide. And so here he is at like 16 and he's expected to provide for, you know, three older sisters or they're sort of telling him that. And so he's not really kind of sure like how to go about doing that feels kind of overwhelmed. But there is like one opportunity within his community. So he's like low socioeconomic status. Also like an ethnic minority. And and so started, you know, dealing. And then kind of got caught. you know, had a couple of infractions. I was meeting him when he was like 24 or 23.

Yeah. And so we kind of talked about it. And then he sort of like felt this big, big burden, like his biggest issue like when he was talking about being depressed is like, I have to provide. And it's like my responsibility to provide. And the really bizarre thing is that a few months later I was working with, you know, like a middle aged investment banker. And like the same words were coming out of his mouth. Yeah. And it just struck me. is like bizarre that these two people from so different backgrounds. Actually, oddly enough, the investment banker's background was actually not very different from this kids, which is interesting. So also grew up like poor and things like that. And just so interesting that like these two people

from such different walks of life, like different ethnicities, you know, somewhat different backgrounds, very different, you know, day-to-day experiences of life, were essentially like, like suffering from a common problem. And that just struck me is very strange. And it caused me to really like stop and think a little bit about like, you know, how, with all the discussions of privilege and stuff like that, that you could kind of say, like, how can you even compare those? But just you can certainly say that these people aren't similar at all.

But just as a therapist, you know, part of what I try to do is like see the person behind all of the labels and, color of their skin and things like that. And what really shocked me was that, you know, if I closed my eye, if I made a transcript of each session and I went back and read them, I would not know which person I was talking to just based on the transcript of their words. Yeah. And so something about that, I realize like something is going on here. Like, I don't know what, but there's like a bizarre, like it's so, and I realize that the further apart that these people appear to be, the bigger the issue is. Because it's got a, it's got to, it's got to to, you know, bridge the gap of these vastly different experiences. And so I started to just kind of

talk to people and sort of explore and things like that. And it's been just really fascinating to sort of try to figure out, you know, for essentially a privileged class. Like, why do men suffer so much? Why is the suicide rate, you know, why do four out of three or four, three out of four or four four out of five people who kill themselves are men. Yep. And so, you know, what, like, I feel like we're missing something here and that there's something going on that there's actually a lot of, like, evidence for, but that people don't talk about.

Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's an oversimplification of the issue in the sense that we love to look at things as hierarchies that are very clear cut in the sense, like, we got a pyramid, we got, we got men at the top, and then we got women right below, and then we got people who are minorities and then we got people who are disabled, right? But the truth is, I think when people internalize these issues and people will live these issues, they don't necessarily live on a macro scale. Things happen on a microscales. And so, you know, even when I try to have these discussions, for example, and you say the problem seems very vast and complex. I think it's a lot

more simple in the sense that as a whole men deal with certain issues, but because they're perceived as the privileged class, a lot of that is underserved. And it's rarely discussed in a sense. So, you know when I talk about this stuff and people like well women suffer more I'm like I don't disagree that women may have more problems in society that means but when I'm dealing with problems and they're very real whether it be depression or my friends killing themselves or things like that I internalize things on a micro scale I internalize things on an individual basis I can't think of like men as a whole I'm thinking about man people around me are dying my male friends are dying that's what I see and so you can

understand concepts on a macro level but I think seeing the folks as individuals is important this because it makes you realize that even though a perceived class can can have these advantages and they're quite real, on an individual scale, the suffering can be just as heavy, if that makes sense. You know? Yeah. And I think that's important. And to me, what you said about like the investment banker and the deuce on the drugs,

it's not surprising. You know, as my income level has changed and as I've spent time from the military to civilian life and stuff, I'm like, it's the same problems. It's really not that drastically different. I see a lot of the same patterns in regards to that idea of male responsibility and feeling they need to provide. Even though I'm a middle child and I got older sisters, you know, I have that exact same responsibility. But I'm supposed to take care of my mom. I'm supposed to take care of my siblings, you know. And they haven't, didn't even have to explicitly say it.

I just feel like that is my response. That is my burden to bear. And so I think a lot of this stuff is just understood on a side of level for all men, irrespective of income level. Yeah. So what do you think is the problem, Aba? Help me understand your understanding of this situation. I think men are expected to do these things. We're just often ill-equipped and not giving any guidance on how to do them. Do what things?

From everything, from making the first move and being a leader. Like, you know, the whole idea of leading, even within a small, like just within a relationship. Like, that expectation is definitely imposed on us through dating, stay. through media imagery. And then even if you take it from a work standpoint, you know, meeting a certain level of income, the idea of what success for a man looks like is to defeat others in a way and to be better. And when you consider all these expectations, it's like, okay, I'm 18, I just finished

high school. I don't know how to approach it or be good at it. I don't know how to make money. I get anxiety about the idea of like, how am I going to take care of the people around me? I've got to take care of a wife and a girlfriend and kids. And so those... Wife and girlfriend. Wow.

I know. Imagine both at the same time, depending on culture, right? Yeah, so those expectations are quite the cross to bear when there's no resources on how to do it. That's what I think. Okay. So what are the expectations that you feel? So I'm also hearing kind of a thread. You talked about Red Pill and, you know, Red Pill is a...

I still remember when I was back in college. Like a couple of my friends got into the pickup artist scene. Yeah. And so it's, it's been interesting to see the evolution of like pickup artist into red pill into, I think, in cell. Like, I think that there's a lot of common sort of threads there. Yeah. And so what are the expectations that you feel like you've been placed upon your shoulders

without insufficient, I mean, without sufficient guidance? Um, the, the two things that come to mind right away are one to, to, to lead to, uh, kind of be the trailblazer or to be the one who is going to take charge of a situation, you know, uh, that's one. And the second thing would be just in a romantic sense, um, just the idea of knowing how to court somebody. You know, because I think a lot of us are often starred for affection or do want that kind of like reciprocity in terms of love and things like that. But speaking to most men, I know they don't know how to do it. They don't know how to start that initiative and they get so much anxiety and nervousness about it. It's like, like, what do you know? And they know nothing. And I'm like, I'm not surprised because I knew nothing at 18 or 19 or 20.

And yeah, those would be like two prime examples I can think of on top of my head. And so can you tell us a little bit about. can you tell us just a little bit about your kind of sense of what not knowing how to court someone at 18 sort of felt like and kind of where you are now and what that journey has been like. Oh, man. Oh, man. So you talk about the pickup part of stuff? I picked up on that.

You know, the one thing I had in the sense was like, thankfully for me and my case, like a rejection didn't like murder my self-esteem. But back in the day before, like a lot of the. gender stuff really got really popular. We just had to go up to women and try to be like, hi, I think you're gorgeous, right,

or whatever. And I remember what my first couple of rejections felt like. Can you tell us about that? Oh, man. Oh, I just brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal,

stuff. I remember one time I, I asked this girl at my gym and she accepted it. She's like, yeah, you know, I get off on Friday at 5, so you can just come meet me there.

And I was like, cool. and Friday came along and I texted her in the morning but she didn't respond but I'm like it's okay we already agreed on the spot so I'll just go there and I came around when the her shift ended which is like 5 p.m. and waited outside and I texted her up like hey I'm outside she still didn't respond and I just remember her walking out with another dude and getting a car and leaving and they weren't gotten a cap and I remember jumping into the bushes to hide just brutal stuff man just the idea of being in a club you know and going up to a girl and and be like hey and just

very very And, you know, they, they snap. And to be clear, I just want to say this. I don't get mad at some people who take, who reject very aggressively because I understand sometimes during the night, you might get approached a hundred times and it can be very taxing to have to say no to people constantly want something from me. But as a dude, we try to approach very kindly just to hear that,

I'd just be like, no. And it's like yelled in a way that everyone else can hear. It's just, you just slunk. And I've seen it happen so many people around me. So, yeah, yeah, even if I look back on it, I just sometimes I still cringe. Yeah. I'm curious, what did it, what did it feel like when, you know, you saw her walk out of the gym with another dude? Shame, embarrassment, inadequacy.

Those are like a couple of words that come into mind. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you actually hide? Did you actually hide? Oh, yeah, yeah. I hit because the way it works is they got a loop around in the cab to come by. and I was standing right beside the bushes.

And so I was far enough to see them. And I'm, oh, man, yeah, I don't want to. It's brutal. I jumped in those bushes. Yeah. Because I felt so embarrassed. You know what I mean? I was like, here I am for a date.

She's leaving some other dude, you know? So I, yeah, I remember being 19 and that happening. I'll never forget that day. There was always one of those stories. I'm like, ooh. Yeah. I have a fair number of cringe stories myself. Yeah.

And so then what, you know, so how did you, being such a thoughtful guy? How did you like think about, you know, what, how did you approach that? So like you clearly saw like there's a problem here, right? Like, and what did you understand was the problem at 19? I just felt like I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I didn't, I felt like I had no game plan. I didn't feel. Sounds like you had no game. Yeah, yeah. That's really what it was. I had no game. One thing I had going in my favor was like even if I took a huge L like that, I would be fine with going back the next day and trying again with somebody different. Sure. So I think that's what, but I know dudes who get that once and it was over.

And my problem was I just didn't have any skill set to understand. Because I feel like now where I'm at, I can understand way more variables than what I could then. I couldn't read the social cues. I didn't understand what it looked like when someone was interested in what they weren't, little signs that I could pick up on to better handle the situation. And at 19, I just didn't have that skill set. So I would go in blind and I would leave blind and just with a bunch of things I saw and I can't make sense of. So that was my issue at the time. And how did you think about approaching it?

Like, you know, what did you think about? What were you going to do about it? Like you're like, okay, I'm blind. How did you think? Yeah, I'm going to look for guidance. I'm going to look for for instructions. You know, I come from a gamer background. When you can't figure something out, you look for a walkthrough.

Yeah, absolutely. So it was the same idea. I just, I needed some advice. And, you know, I'm sure folks, Google this on all ends. How do I make someone like me? Or how do I do this? Right? We all looking for answers to find acceptance for somebody.

And that's what I did. And did you feel like, you kind of alluded to the fact that maybe you didn't have sort of personal guidance or kind of mentorship sort of growing up. So did you feel like you, there wasn't anyone you could kind of talk to in your personal life that could maybe guide you? Yeah, I think it's twofold. I think I didn't have that. And secondly, I think I would have felt shame to ask someone directly that I'm like, I feel inadequate approaching women.

You know. Yeah. So I think it's those two things. Because it sounds pathetic to go up like, man, I don't know how to approach girls to somebody. You know. Yeah. It doesn't sound great. Yeah.

So I think a lot of people look for those resources, but don't want to admit that they're looking for them. So I think that too, you know, just what I'm hearing there is there's actually like a really subtle expectation there. Yeah. That it is oddly enough, everyone's. ignorant and it's completely unacceptable to be ignorant. Even amongst men, that it would be shameful to another dude. It would be like so pathetic if you're like, hey, man, how do you pick up chicks? Like, I don't know how to pick up chicks.

Yeah, yeah. And then they'd look at you and they'd be like, you're a loser. Yeah. And even worse than that. I've watched guys go up to folks in clubs, right? And just go very kindly. Like, hey, can I get you drinking? Girl says no.

And I understand that. But sometimes I would hear the girls afterwards, like, I was such a fucking creep. And the guy would be with an earshot to hear it. But I was just like, oh, he just doesn't know what he's doing. And I think oftentimes women don't know how much we don't know what we're doing. And sometimes a lack of skills is seen as predatory or somehow like very gross and disgusted in when it's just like, man, I feel bad for the whole being. Like he's 21.

This is his first time inside a club. He doesn't know. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel bad. I feel, yeah, I feel bad. Yeah, I can see it. I can see there's something, you know, you're really resonating with something there. Because that was me. So I know what he's thinking, you know? I know what he's feeling right now.

When you get rejected, the dejection that you feel afterwards is who. And I'm not talking about when someone says no to you on Tinder because, you know, even that's manageable. You're in the privacy of your own home. I think that's why a lot of people actually don't, you know, go up to folks in person as much anymore is because they have. have, they can better preserve themselves by doing things online. But when I used to watch it all the time, it was very difficult to watch at times. Yeah, I think Tinder has its own set of, you know, toxicity. But what I'm really hearing from you is that there's sort of this expectation of competence from both your male peers and from the women that you approach that like, you should know how to do this better. Yeah. Well, yeah, even looking at the idea like men have to be the leaders of the household. And that's like a common thing that people still hold on.

to despite the fact that women are extremely successful in terms of like, I think they're outpacing men for degrees now and out-earning men coming straight out of university and college. So there's still that idea that men still got to do all this stuff, even though they seem to be failing perpetually in gradually getting worse in some regards. And so even just that expectation is daunting for a lot of men. Yeah, you know, this is kind of, I don't want to charge the discussion. But one thing that I've noticed is really interesting is that, you know, sometimes being a psychiatrist, I get the opportunity to to ask men and women sort of personal questions about their, you know, who they would date and things like that. It's a common concern. And I'm really surprised by the, you know, the high,

high percentage of women that really feel like if a man is not financially successful, that they're not an acceptable, like, partner. And the interesting thing is that when I talk, you know, so I feel like oftentimes I hear, keep in mind, this isn't date or anything. I think it's just anecdotal. Could have a lot to do with the selection bias and the people who wind up in my office. But that it's kind of completely acceptable to a lot of my male patients that they have a partner that doesn't earn money. And that a homemaker is like a laudable position. But women that I have as patients don't really feel the same way.

They're actually very few. But some of them, you know, are okay with that. Yeah. That's been my experience. That's been my experience. And I don't think it's necessarily wrong or evil. This is not a critique of women or anything like that. To me, it just speaks to the expectation that's placed on men to live up to a certain role.

And yeah, if you look at the hierarchy, it needs within data, but if you don't want to go that we don't have to. It's like, yeah, there is that expectation on much of a societal level. Even in like as progressive as countries, as you can imagine, there's still a lot of those same roles being. existing. You know, the interesting thing, just to toss this out, speaking of anecdotal experiences, when I talk to women about who they're accepted, who they're willing to date, the interesting thing is that half of their hesitation doesn't come from a personal standard. It actually, now that I think about it, comes from a societal standard. Yeah. Yeah. So it's more about like, you know, what are my parents going to think,

kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And anyway, yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then what did you do about it? So it sounds like you Googled, how do I get someone to like you? And what else did you do about, you know, learning how to do this thing? I had nobody, I felt like I could talk to about this kind of stuff because of the shame. So I think I went on to online forums and internet because one, it gave me anonymity and two, it reflected my lived experience. So with those two things, I was like, okay, I'm not alone in this, which is already a great feeling. Other people feel super inadequate like me. And we could talk it out. and kind of share ideas. And then the third thing is then afterwards, I was led to some resources. I don't know if you've ever heard of this show. There's a show that used to be called Keys to the VIP. It lasted, I think, three seasons.

It was a show where, you know, two guys would be sent to a nightclub and they would, you know, be asked to, you know, try to pick up women and try to do so in creative ways. And I would watch every episode. Just I'm like, oh, okay, I'm learning, you know? And it got canceled, obviously, because some people felt the show was unacceptable in that regards.

Even though these guys weren't being pigs or anything weird. Um, what kind of stuff were they doing? Are they go up and then sometimes they would pretend that they were deaf and they did they like can I get they'd have to write on a cute card to see if they could talk to the person. They would basically handicap themselves. They would handicap themselves to see like see how I can do it, how easy it is. So, um, it would be stuff like that. And a lot of times I would just be out there laughing.

Um, and so yeah, it was just, uh, that would be the kind of stuff that they were doing. And, um, I think, I think the idea of picking up women is just really. revolting to people, you know? Like learning skills, it's usually, we're expected to be confident, but learning skills to do it is seen as gross or trying too hard. That's like the, the weird dichotomy I see. Yeah. So I think some of that has to do with what the implication of picking up women is. You know, I think that there's, there's sort of an implication in the pickup artist community and the Red Pill community that most relationships should be like relatively temporary and be, especially in the Red Pill community, it seems like there's sort of

of a it's a zero-sum game. So the more you get out of the relationship, the more she loses and vice versa, right? Like in the Red Pill community, there's a winner and a loser. And either you're the loser in the relationship or you're the winner in the relationship. But I think that, you know, picking up women sort of has a certain connotation to it, which I think evokes. I mean, when you say picking up women, I don't hear, I don't assume. I don't, that that means you're looking for a girlfriend. What do you think? I think if you use that term, no.

Yeah. You know, to me, to me, it just strikes me as like bad branding in the sense, because if you think about all those dudes who did most of that pickup art stuff, they're all married with kids or they've all had to settle down. And, well, a lot of the ones that I used to follow oftentimes, too. And even people I follow within the Red Bill community, I advocate for the ideas of relationships and stuff like that. Though I can't understand that connotation and there's definitely been, you know, bad examples and in bad representation that regards.

I would argue that the idea of being in relationship and being married is definitely wanted by most men, even within those communities. It's just, I don't think it's necessarily put to the forefront or prioritize or it's not nearly as appealing in terms of the brochure for why you would apply. Do you do what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. I think the brochure, I mean, there's a, I have a lot of. thoughts. We're actually, hopefully coming out with a research paper on some of this stuff in the next couple months. So let's just, I'm just a little bit curious about your personal journey. So like, what happened next? Yeah. You know, I think as I started being more bold and started just trying

different things, I would once again still fail a tremendous amount. But I started to feel like I was The affection or interest I would show towards women would be reciprocated more often. So I was like, oh, this stuff is working. And, you know, I think as you get more involved with that stuff, then you start to fall in some pit traps. I would say that I got to a point where it's like when you're when you want something for so long and you're starved for it and then you get it. You don't know how to hold the floodgates. So I think I just started dating way too often. and I was doing too much and I was too engrossed in the idea of wanting to be liked.

So I think that became something that I was really involved. I was dating all the time. I was going out. I was on Tinder. So yeah, I was like, oh, I can do this now. I can do what a lot of dudes can't do. So I'm not going to stop. And yeah.

So I'm going to kind of ask you, I have a, this is sort of a hypothesis-driven question. But so when you say it was working or it was. worked. What do you think was working? What do you think was responsible for your change in fortune? Like, it sounds like you were able to date a lot. You know, was it the pickup artist? Kind of like, was it watching this TV show or like, how did you learn to get better? Um, repetition. I'm going to be honest with it. It was repetition and, um, coming more into myself and being able to share more of myself with folks. that was it.

Because I feel like when you have all this anxiety and you're constantly nervous and you're getting in your own way, they don't get to see you. They just see confusion. And I think I just felt much more calm in circumstances. When I had conversations, it wasn't necessarily somebody I was trying to date or be sleep with. It was, I'm just talking to a person. And I think as I got to that sense of comfort, then it was fine.

Yeah. So that was sort of what I was imagining. Yeah. That's been sort of, you know, in a sense, my experience, although it's very limited and really like observing other people's experiences. Right. Is that there isn't sort of a magic trick. It really is about kind of being your best self.

And, you know, the more that you can just be your best self, like people will be, you know, that's going to be attractive to hopefully some people, usually some people. Yeah, but it's getting there. It's getting there. That's a problem. It's getting there. It's a problem. And when you feel inadequate, you know, it's like you first, it's like this even with artistic approaches to like singing or dancing.

You start off by imitating others. And then as you do so through that process, you start to find your own voice. And I felt like dating is like that too, like, you know, or like approaching and, you know, breaking that ice, that tension, that awkwardness is very difficult at first. If you have nothing to lean on. That's what I found. Yeah. And so then what happened? it sounded like you were dating quite successfully.

Yeah. You'd become the chad of your dreams. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't have that terminology back then, but yeah. Yeah. I suppose so. And then how did you, what was that like for you?

It was just a lot of excess. It was just too much of, of something. That's the best way I could describe it. What do you mean by that? Can you help us understand that a little bit? Yeah. It's just too much time, too much energy. It's like I got.

lost in the sauce. You know, I, my day would be spent and the day would pass by. I'm like, what did I do today? And a lot of it was meaningless.

Like, which not everything has to be meaningful, but I think I valued my time. And as I discovered other things that I was passionate about, interested in, I started to realize my priorities weren't in the right place.

I, yeah, I was too busy chasing a high, if you will. I think that's how I felt it was. The mark of a true chat is to be like, oh, I'm dating too much.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I know. And I have this conversation all the time because, like, people who haven't been there are like, yeah, you're just saying that. I'm like, it's hard for me to tell them that the grass is not greener on the other side if they haven't been there because their whole life they've been told this is the ideal thing to go for. Yeah. And what I'm hearing is that, you know, you got to the other side. You thought the grass was greener and you're like, actually, this isn't. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing happened to all my friends, too. All my friends had the same experience. And that experience was dating a lot and dating intensively and Yeah, yeah, you know, like, yeah, they were starred for, for females attention. And then afterwards, once they got it and they started being very gratuitous with it, they realized like, oh, this is not that great. And I was like, I know, we had this

conversation, but sometimes you've got to experience it to understand it. So I try not to be too preachy about it. And then what happened? Okay, so I think I need to go backwards a little bit. As you, start to enter the red pill environment, you know, one idea is like you see the truth of what it is. You're not supposed to go up to a girl and just like, here's some flowers, you know, like, there's a way you can come with some confidence and things like that to garner that affection. But then that also trickled into more political discussions about, you know, what are men's struggles and why you're struggling and why society is built this way and what your burden and

responsibility are and how women really are. So you'd hear that kind of rhetoric a lot. And that would be gross into some of the pickup artist ideas that you would hear about often. So as I would hear that, it began to, I would sometimes within my dating experiences, have things happen that I was like, what was that? You know, whether it be being groped or women being physically abused, I don't even like using the word abusive, but, you know, like getting slapped for a disagreement, you know, within like a dating context. I was like, how do you feel this comfortable hitting me in front of other people?

And when I would bring this up to folks, I would be almost often gaslit into thinking like, oh, this is not that big of a deal. And I'm like, and I'm someone who I really dislike it when people put their hands on me in a non, like, in a non-intimate sense. You know, when they do it as a sense of control, whether or a sense of like aggression, it triggers me to a point I can't explain. Even if it's like little stuff like, like, oh, don't have to, you know, just little things like that can really set me off. And I couldn't imagine me grabbing somebody when they didn't

want to be grabbed. And I would see this stuff. And when I would bring it up to people and I would see it in nightclubs and stuff like that, I'm just like, and the only time I ever saw that issue reflected or people talking about some of the comfort that people feel touching others, I was when I was in the Red Pill community. So it started warping my perception of women to some degree and made me resentful. Even the idea that I had to be the one. one who makes the first move. And I had to be the one who puts myself esteem on the line when I go up to somebody. I'm like, hey, I'm really interested. And I get yelled at. And I'm supposed to just accept that that's my job as a man to do that. I became resentful of like the, the burden that

society placed on me. And I think that community kind of fueled it with some of the ideas because I found other people who felt the exact same way. And so you have this like kind of echo chamber. And as I grew older, I decided to kind of slink away from that because I started to realize it was clouding my judgment. How did you make that realization? It was progressive. You know, I like to believe that I'm introspective enough to acknowledge when I'm holding onto a bad idea. And I was questioned on things. I can't tell you an exact moment, but I remember being questioned on certain things.

And I would sit with those ideas. And I'm like, if I look at this logically, it doesn't make sense. And so I just had to reexamine things, you know, try to study a little bit and be like, am I holding onto this because it's, it's reflective of some of my experiences? And, you know, am I holding onto this due to like anger or resentment? Or am I holding on to this because it's a sound idea? And I think just a bit of that reflection kind made me realize you weren't, there weren't great ideas. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of staggering, but I want to share to like one or two experiences that really terrified me. So I one time was talking to

a sexual assault victim who was, you know, a tall, you know, well-built man who was sexually assaulted by like a 5-foot-3 woman. And they were at a party and she basically climbed on top of him. And he felt really scared and like he felt like, you know, he couldn't explain to other people that like, because they would look at the physical different. difference and they would say, how on earth could you not defend yourself in that situation? Yep. And then, so I asked him, I was like, you know, when people sit like, so I just asked him, why didn't you feel like you could defend yourself? And he was like, if I defended myself, my chances of going to jail were so much higher. Because what would it look like if I, if I like pick her up and throw her off like,

she was persistent, like he pushed her away. She didn't. She falls awkwardly. Yep. And so, like, is he supposed to hit her across the face? Like, he can absolutely physically overpower her. He can knock her unconscious. But what happens then?

And so he felt incredibly powerless, incredibly, he felt stuck like he couldn't do anything about it. And so it was just really, I'd never, until I, you know, until I heard him say something like that, I had never thought, you know, I'd never thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a layer even above that. I, um, there was this one lady who I knew who was a teacher at a school. She basically taught like the progressive ideas of, um, of gender studies.

And me and her had some conversations in the past. And I remember on New Year's Eve, I think it's like 2018. I was, uh, I was at a club and she came up to me. And she was like, oh, it's good to see you. I'm good to see you as well. and she's a little bit intoxicated. I was very sober. And she kind of approached me trying to get close.

And I was like, I'm not interested in. I remember like just before the count on hit, I was heading towards the bathroom. She was coming out of her. She said, oh, good to see you.

And I'm like, yeah, good to see you as well. And she just went right away and grote me, right? And I remember being like, what are you doing? And she immediately just lunged at me to make out, right?

And as her lips from mind, I pushed her off. Um, and I just remember thinking like, what just happened right now, right? And maybe a week later, I just remember seeing her on social media just talking about boundaries and how it's important for men to respond.

I just, I remember being so angry at that moment. I remember being so mad. And I think it kind of reflected an experience that I had in my life where I would look at things that would happen like that. And the really difficult thing for me was accepting that some of the women who would do this stuff weren't necessarily bad people. You know, like whether it'd be slapping a guy or things like that. when they get really angry. They weren't necessarily bad people. But I also saw how nobody held

them accountable when they did some of these things because of the perceived size difference, because of the idea that a man being hit really doesn't have any implications or his boundaries being violent doesn't really matter, you know? And when I had a conversation with one person, I was like, do you not realize that you are doing something wrong when you put your hands on me that way? And the person had to sit with it and come to the real understanding like, oh, I did something fucked up. But it dawned on me, this person at 27 had never been told that before. And it felt comfortable doing that in the past.

And it was like, we got a bigger problem. This is not just a matter of like individuals. It's also a matter of like messaging and in how we have these conversations, you know. Every guy I've ever spoken to could tell me of experiences where they've had people place their hands on them, you know, from the opposite section. And they just never talk about it. Like, oh, it is what it is. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a tough one. It was a tough one to be like, I can't hate this person because they're not evil. But what they do, what they're doing is terrible. Hmm. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that, you know, also like in a sense, I think you can't really blame someone if you never give them feedback. And what I'm hearing is that people aren't really getting feedback.

Yeah. It's hard, though. It's hard to give someone feedback who violated your boundaries because then it means that you as a man have to accept the idea that. someone did something wrong to you, which is not a conversation you want to have. I don't even though by definition it as abuse, even though by definition it would technically be categorized.

That's not how I perceived it, but it is what it is. And to have that conversation should mean I have to relive that. And then I also have to confront them, which is a daunting process. Why don't you see it as abuse? Maybe it's more so because of my response to it isn't like, to me, just I guess this is how I interpret it,

but maybe I'm lying to myself. I just see it as like blatantly disrespectful. That's what I think when I think back to that experience. I'm like, I would never do that to you. I would never like not care about your boundaries so much that I would just do that. I just couldn't imagine. But for you to do that, like where do you get off feeling that comfortable? And I think that's why I don't necessarily categorize the abuse because I didn't feel necessarily violated per se.

So I think that's why I would see that. Maybe that's wrong, but that's just my perception of it. And so where, so it sounds like you kind of cooled off on. dating you had a couple of relatively you know negative experiences here and there like where are you nowadays oh things are really peaceful you know like i think one thing i value within my dating life now is just um peacefulness you know not that the idea that's never conflict but that we can like get through this stuff in a in a in a peaceful way if you will and um it's good it's good um i i don't feel any compulsive need like I used to. I mean, you know, sometimes the ego flares up and you want to dabble a little bit,

but for the most part, things are pretty quiet. And I'm kind of grateful for that because I get to put my energy towards things that matter a little bit more. And then I like that. You know, Abba, this may sound a little bit weird, but, you know, we're talking about how people don't have guidance. And I'm curious, is there something that you want guidance on now? Like, I think for me in the next chapter of my day and life, my relationship, I think it's just a matter of going through it. I don't think I necessarily need guidance at the moment per se. I just constantly see people suffering and they're coming to me with their suffering. And I'm just like, man, there's a lot.

A lot of people are going through what I went through before. So I think that's more. And what is it that they're going through? That feeling of inadequacy, that feeling of not knowing. You know, we do these call-in shows and every day without fail. I get, I'm surprised by this. I get 16 to 21-year-olds hitting me up, like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I feel not confident and I feel like I suck.

And I just want to give up on this altogether. And what do you say to them? I tell them to have patience with themselves because this is going to process. And I also remind them, like, if you don't put yourself out that, there's no chance for you to really have any sense of success in this regard. You know, like, you can't shield yourself from, from, from, love and also get the benefits of it. You have to take some form of a leap. So to give up is not in your best interest. But also understand, you have a lot of time ahead of you. Even though the world tells you as an 18 year old, you're an adult and you need to know what you're doing. Like most 18 year olds

don't know. And so just to be patient with themselves and to remind themselves that there's time for them to grow. And so that's a great response. I think it's kind of interesting. Because there's also sort of like a, I don't know if this is, maybe this is my own bias where I'm interpreting what you're saying is having a certain like masculine quality, you know, of, and maybe that's unfair. Maybe it's, it's neither masculine or feminine, but just human is really when I stop and think about it. But I noticed that I had sort of a masculine response to that, which is like, that's what men do, right? Like, you got to put yourself out there. You got to, you got to brave the danger if you want the reward. And that's something that, you know, sort of a very like masculine ethos that I think we

kind of project. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's really masculine at all. It's really just human. Right. And, but oddly enough, I was just surprised a little bit by my mind's reaction and then seeing how, like, how right that felt. Like, that's a manly thing to say. Like, what I heard you say, like, you know, you got to put yourself out there. Like, sure, you can, you can't shield yourself and get the benefit. You have to be brave. You have to be courageous. Yeah. And like I said, I clearly don't, I mean, I don't think it applies just to men, but it's interesting how that's kind of a, you know, that's where we kind of go. You got to be manly, bro. Yeah. Well, I mean, the idea of putting yourself out there is what men are repeatedly told all the time, whether it be like making the first move, whether it's protecting your family and shielding them with your life, whether it's being the one to provide financially. It's like you're the one who has to put yourself on the limb in an outward perspective. I think women do it as well. I think it just doesn't manifest as, as. like outwardly as it would with men traditionally. I think that's what it is.

Yeah. And so I want to go back to this. Like so someone asked you what you thought about red pill. And what was your answer again? Um, I think it is the only source of resources that, um, that men have. And I think it has its imperfections as a community. But some of their ideas are very valid.

And, um, you know, that, that was my stance on it. It's got his problems, but it's its only spot fermented to hear some of the stuff they need to hear. And what is it that you think they need to hear? To take accountability, to understand that they have a responsibility towards self-improvement if they want the results that they feel they should get, that they, that it's not going to be handed to them, but they have to work. You know, I got that from the military and other stuff. Most folks don't get it at that age, you know. They don't get at that age.

They don't get told, like, if you want to meet somebody or find love, you have to put in some work. You know, some people just feel entitled. Like, I'm supposed to find a partner and I'm supposed to just be, and it's like, no, there's things you've got to do. So I think this idea of accountability and responsibility towards self-improvement is two ideas that men desperately want to hear and want to be told. And this community provides that. What are some of the things in the community that you think are not as helpful?

Okay. This is when it gets to the minute stuff because, you know, you have so many different voices kind of spreading things. So it's hard to pinpoint one or two things. things i often agree with some of the rhetoric that individuals say as creators and i think sometimes i push back on that even the idea of like um necessarily having to embrace uh traditional uh gender roles and the idea that if you don't you're somehow beta or inferior or that if you have a wife who's a little bit more masculine that that makes you somehow less of a man it's just

all these ideas that seem a little bit too rigid i'm not a big fan of so so what i'm It's interesting because when you talk about the positives, once again, I think it's like stuff that I don't think is really masculine. I think it's human. That you have to take accountability for your actions. And if you want something in life, you probably have to work towards it. I agree. The issue is they don't get told that. There's nobody there to tell them that.

And if nobody's saying that to them, then they'll go where they can find it. So I think that's the moment. Yeah, yeah. I'm not. I just, I get what you're saying. Yeah. So the reason I kind of bring that up is because I'm also hearing that some of the stuff that is maybe a little bit more rigid that you're not on board with seems in a definition standpoint like more masculine, like gender roles. Like it's gendered by nature, but that that does that make sense?

What do you mean by more? What do you mean by it sounds more masculine? So like you were kind of talking about how like, you know, traditionally like there's an idea of masculinity. if you don't meet that ideal, your beta. So the things that you don't really kind of agree with as much are like the things that are inherently more gendered. Sure. Sure.

Yeah. I'm just drawing that kind of observation, right? Yeah, gender conformative. Yeah, sure. Yeah, right. Right. So it's kind of interesting because I mean, I'm with you in terms of like people need a place where they can be supported in sort of a compassionate way and still held accountable.

And this is something that, you know, it's interesting because in our in our coaching program, part of what, like, our values are a little bit weird because being nice is not one of them. Being polite is not one of them. So one of the things that we actually work really, really hard with our coaches to train them in is to be authentic and compassionate. So what that means is like being authentic is like if you think someone, like if your client is messing up, then you hold them accountable. Like you have to be authentic with them. You can't brush it over, but that that authenticity should be tempered with compassion. So, like, it's walking the road of, like, not blaming them, but also holding them accountable. Like, be like, hey, man,

like, you're kind of, you know, you're kind of screwing up here. Like, let's work on that. But, like, not let it slide. Yeah. You know, I think one thing they do well within the Red community, which works for some people, is that they say things authentically in a way that they think you need to hear it and that a lot of people do like. So I've heard coaches be like, what's your problem young man and the man will be like well you know I'm not getting girls like well all right what's your what's your physical stature like are you doing well physically and he's like uh oh you know I could stand to work out he's like are you saying that you're fat and I remember when he said that to the man a lot of people in the channel like crazy like you can't

say that but the young man you know what I felt like that's what I needed to hear because I didn't want to acknowledge it and what I'm saying is I'm not saying this necessarily the right way what I'm saying is that for some people they feel like needing that directly is what they want And I remember also being an army and like having people talk to you that way sometimes is the thing that you need in some circumstances. And so what you thought about in terms of authenticity and saying things and holding people accountable, they definitely have that a lot in that community. Yeah. So in my experience, you can be, you can certainly temper it with compassion. And, you know, I think there are a lot of things, and maybe I'm wrong here, but there are a lot of things that I say to people in interviews. that tend to be clipped out of context and sound really mean.

And, you know, if you just look at the transcript, it certainly does sound mean. But they're usually said with compassion, which is why people are okay with it. Yeah. Right. But you got to kind of, you got to call it what it is. You got to, you know, if someone's got cancer, you got to diagnose it and, like, face that, that reality before you treat it. Yeah. And so, hmm.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've, I really appreciate. kind of everything that you've shared and I sort of understand what you're saying. I think I agree with you that, you know, men for sure, and not to say that women, that this is an exclusive need of men, which I think is another big problem with these kind of gender conversations, is that people tend to draw comparisons. And so I think that it's completely possible for us because I see this, you know, I see women having gender norms that are challenging and an uphill struggle that cause them a lot. of personal suffering. And I think that men have gender norms that are challenging and cause them a lot of suffering in an uphill battle. And somewhere along the way, I think some people feel like there's like it's a zero-sum game. And so the more men struggle, you're sort of devaluing women's struggles or vice versa. And I just don't really see it that way. I just kind of think that,

you know, there are some cases of male privilege and some cases of female privilege. There are some cases of minority privilege and some cases of majority privilege. It's kind of interesting being India and I kind of felt this in a bizarre way in like medicine. So everyone looks at me and assumes when I'm a medical student that I'm a doctor because I'm Indian, which is fantastic. But, you know, from a standardized test perspective, like in terms of like the standardized test score that I need to get is like 20% higher than like other ethnicities who are underrepresented in medicine. So I have to score above average to be competitive. And then still on my first day of

training at Harvard Medical School, a third of the room was South Asian. And so, you know, it's like, I don't know whether it's right or wrong. I've certainly felt both sides of it. And in terms of minority privilege and racism and all that kind of stuff, you know, it's kind of interesting. Yeah. I think the issue with this more than I agree that. everyone has their struggle. I think I think the problem is I just remember never having many resources to look towards. Whereas

when I think when I spoke to women and you, I think they saw themselves in a lot of like talk shows, for example, resources that they could look towards for information. And I think you know, it's just the idea of me having to go on YouTube to learn about this stuff

in 2012, which is so weird to me. You know, because you can't really think of like TV talk shows for man or stuff like that. And more than just, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was just thinking like,

what's the male equivalent of the view? There is none. That's my, and I made the comparison. I said Joe Rogan, which is funny because it just used to be like a shitty podcast in some dude's basement. And now it's like this worldwide thing,

but at its inception, it really wasn't. And, and more than that, I think oftentimes, it's like, the little that we do have, almost feels like it's constantly being threatened to be canceled.

And so it's just like you get a little bit defensive, you know. How can you understand that? I mean, yeah, in terms of like the Redfield community, sometimes diversively so. People just are gone in terms of like their presence online. Take the Rogan podcast. Another great example, which is like, you know, it's been in the news a few times for, you know, people trying to have it removed from online platforms. And so there's just this perception, even if it's not reality.

I'll grant you, I could be wrong, and this is anecdotal. But there's a perception that mail spaces are not safe. That's how a lot of folks feel. And what's your understanding of like Joe Rogan and like why it's been in the news for being canceled? Because it's a male space? I'm going to draw parallel. And there's none of the individual creates content online. And sometimes people feel like he, when he's coaching people or when he's talking to people, right, that he has a strong dislike for women.

And so I went to go watch his content and I went to go watch his coaching with men. And a lot of the verbiage was the same. I think sometimes in male spaces, we have a way of talking and we have a way with engaging with each other. That's often seen as unacceptable or wrong. When it's just for some people, it's like it's a perfectly fine temperament. And I think men feel like they're being policed in a sense. Like, you know what I mean? Does that make sense of what I'm saying?

Sure. Yeah. So, but give me an example of what you think is like, you know, just is the language of men that other people take offense to or that other people are trying to police. I couldn't give you an example of like words we use. I could just give you in terms of like a bluntness. So I had the same thing in the army. The way we talk among soldiers, perfectly acceptable. If it ever made it online, there was no way we would keep our jobs.

But it is how we speak on a regular basis. It is how we talk to each other, you know, behind closed doors or whatever. And so there's this need to hide some of that constantly and to temper our way of being online, which would most people like, that's toxic. And I'm like, is it though? Or are we just fine with how we talk to each other? So. And I've just seen it so much over the years, like shows that I used to love that I think geared towards men's experience. I remember this one on BET, the Man Show, like, gone, you know?

and people were like, this kind of talking is unacceptable. I'm like, is it, though? So I think that's the perception, even if not accurate, that is the perception that a lot of men have. Yeah. So I think that's a, I'd really love to hear some examples, Ava, because I think it's like, if you're making the argument that some people behind closed doors say certain things, which they're okay with, which other people aren't okay with, I think that there's like something to really be explored there.

Right. So even if we look at the instance. cell community or like the red pill community. So there's this sense of, so this is part of like what we've kind of uncovered in our research is that, you know, there's a sense of online drift. So what tends to happen is that, you know, we start out like I'll look at, let's say, like a Jordan Peterson video on YouTube. And then what'll happen is like my YouTube will start recommending other things to me. And depending on what I, I click on, like, I'm going to go like down this rabbit hole, right?

I don't know. You almost described Jordan Peterson as a gateway. It was kind of funny to hear that. No, but I'm not, that wasn't, it was, I used him as a good example because like, no, he is a good example. Right. So like what I'm not, I'm not making a judgment or anything. I'm saying like literally from a YouTube algorithm standpoint, this is literally what

we're researching is how online drift occurs. So this is what content creation platforms do. So they curate content and they say like, oh, for people who watch Jordan Peterson video, like half of them also like something else. And then half of them like something else. And you also see this in political drift, right? So if I watch like a Fox News clip that is making Fox News look good on YouTube, then like YouTube will populate with something else.

And then so over time, what happens is like we get, and you kind of mention this echo chamber, over time, it's kind of weird. I don't think people realize this is happening. But because of the nature of content, content curation and platforms are trying to, you know, do this on purpose, we start to be surrounded by voices that are similar to our own. Sure. I agree with that.

Oh, no, 100%. And over time, as that radicalization happens, I think that, like, you'll see in some of these, like, you know, so then you'll get like the in-cell subreddit gets banned and things like that. And so what ends up happening is over time, people will, like, go to esoterror, like, further and further, like, remove from the front page of the internet. And then sometimes in those spaces, you know, you'll talk about people routinely discussing things like violence towards women and stuff like that. And I imagine that those people feel very comfortable with their language behind closed doors.

Sure. And that people from out, you know, on the other side of the door would find it unacceptable. But, you know, how do they get from that point? Part of it is also your drift. But a part of it is even the more modest example sometimes of like masculine discussions. sometimes get removed from platforms. Jordan Peterson's example used as a starting point. But I remember a time when he would get, you know,

boot out of universities and colleges for rhetoric, which I didn't think was crazy extreme. But that's what I'm talking about when I say it almost feels like our language is being policed, is that even the modest example that you started with was often being removed from campuses. I remember seeing one guy who went in for discussion and they just barred the doors.

And so, you know, when I see this stuff, it changes my perception of how I think masculinity is viewed, whether accurate or not, it is how I see it. Yeah, sure. So how do you think masculinity is viewed? Toxic. I think it's very, and here's what I'll say. I think, you know, when you look at the, my mom, are you dabbling in your world?

But I think this is the five big, big personality traits? Big five. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you think about. Oh, yeah. I just want to make sure you know what, because that's what you studied.

So I just want to make sure I do it right. It's just as much as your world. I think if you see an overrepresentation on any of those axes, I think you're going to see negative behavior. And I think, you know, one example I gave is like when you, I take mothers, for example, I think there need to protect and to nurture sometimes if taken to an extreme can turn into a concept. I think it's called maternal gatekeeping.

I think about a helicopter parent. Okay. So maternal kid can't give me was an idea, but yeah. Like the idea, like you, it's like the idea that you insulate your child from society's problems so much and you protect them that you stunt their growth as a kid. And I actually grew up with a friend who went through that and had to be diagnosed with that. And I was like, whoa. And it just taught me the idea that, yes, of course, if you take traditionally masculine traits and you push them to an extreme, I could definitely see how they're negative for society. But I think even the more modest forms are sometimes seen as bad.

And like competitive sports is another interesting example. Where like they don't like the idea of things being too competitive for young boys. And I'm like, oh, I feel like sometimes you rob them something that they desperately need. You know, whether it's video games or they. I'm not going to say women or anything like that. It just, you know, I remember when these ideas were removed, you know, like, oh, we're no longer giving out trophies or things like that. Everyone just a little participatory. I was like, ew, like I loved it at school.

Even if I didn't come in first, just the idea of like trying to go for it meant something to me. And I think ideas that like men traditionally value so much, I think men feel like are being attacked. That's what I think. I'm not saying they as in like I can point to a group of people or say it's this gender or anything like that. This is just the perception I have of that. Yeah. So what I'm because I was kind of thinking about this abo, like we're trying to figure out to like how to support people right at Healthy the gamer, it's what we do. We try to offer people guidance. I've been toying around with

making a guide to dating relationships, which is, you know, I think there's a lot of basics that I'll teach because we're not taught these things. So I don't do couples counseling, which I explain to all the couples who wind up in my office because I don't do that. But I definitely teach people how to work on themselves to be like better partners in relationships. And there are a lot of like, you know, quips that I've come up with. One is that, you know, everyone's looking for the right partner, but in my experience, the right partner is not something you find. It's something that you become. And so I think that there's a lot of like, anyway, so there's kind of a random aside.

But what I'm kind of hearing from you is that, so as part of the struggle of trying to figure out how to support people in our community, men, women, transgender folks, kind of everyone, part of what I've been trying to understand is like, what is toxic masculinity and what is masculinity? and because there's a sort of idea that there's, what's your cringe? I'm such a stickler for words. And so I understand it conceptually, but every time I hear it, I cringe. But I understand what it comes. No, no, no, no.

I think we should explore the cringe. That's where the money is. I think people don't understand. I think people have this idea conceptually of what the word means, but they don't understand how it's internalized by our brains and hair. meaning, you know, I remember taking a marketing class and how important it was for a company to get the right slogan and the right words at the same spot. And no matter what a company may mean by their slogan, they understand that people interpret words and it just goes right to their core irrespective of what spin or what idea you want to put with it. And I think whether it's, you know, toxic masculinity or men are trash, I think the idea is behind them the sentiment I can understand.

I just think people don't understand the implications that has subconscious. and how it makes us feel viscerally when we hear these ideas or these words. How do you feel viscerally when you hear the phrase toxic masculinity? I'm going to use men are trash because I think that's like a much more poignant one and I think a more extreme one. But I think when I hear that, for example, I immediately think we're not redeemable. I think of the word trash and I think of throwing it out. I think it's like it's over for that.

And it's just such a tough thing to hear, especially when you're young and in development. You see it online, men are trash, men are trash, and masculinity is toxic or toxic masculinity. You're just like, whoo. It's very polarizing language. That's what I think. So you equate toxic masculinity. Like when you hear the phrase toxic masculinity, your mind goes to men or trash? Okay.

Men are trash is a separate phrase, but they're often coupled with each other online platforms. So for me, yeah, for me, it's like part of that whole ensemble. Got it. Of polarizing terms that people use. that I think has more of a negative effect than anything else. Yeah. Because it reinforces an idea that I think a lot of people already hold in their heads. And what is that idea?

You know, it's like it goes back to that idea of like policing and men have these, that men are the problem, you know? It's just like I said, I understand it conceptually as like a macro scale, but as a micro scale someone we're dealing with struggles. It just constantly feels like I'm hearing like, yo men's problems don't matter. That's what I hear when I hear that stuff. Even I know it's not what they're saying. I get it.

That's what it feels like just considering other societal stuff that I deal with. Have you felt like people have treated you like your problems don't matter? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the time. All the time. Still? I mean, sometimes I get sick of talking about men's issues or men's problems.

Like, I don't even want to discuss them at times because it's just like, you're always going to have a role of people like, oh, men are complaining. I'm like, men are committing suicide too, you know? Like, it's crazy to me. that there's all these things and you could verifiably like quantify them in some ways and people are still like you guys don't really have problems

and I'm just like what? Or the worst one, I don't think it's worse but it's somewhat valid but the thing I hate is even more sometimes is it's like we get that you suffer but because women suffer more

like let's put that on the back burner I'm just like brough so yeah it's just things that peeve me but I don't even want to get heated about it how does it feel when people invalidate your struggles. I think I'm fortunate that I'm at the age that I am now

and that I've dealt with so much because I'm able to handle it up better. But sometimes it takes me back to how I was when I was much younger and how I was dealing with stuff and I had nothing. And it's just be like, man, 20 world me would have never survived a lot of this. Like this would have really wrecked me.

And it makes me, it makes me sad. It makes me sad because I think I recognize a lot of people or young and in a vulnerable state. And the language we use doesn't help to make them feel accepted or to feel okay. You know, I think these conversations are important. They're absolutely necessary to have. But I think we don't, it's like what you said.

There's a way to do things with compassion. That's what's lacking with the discourse. And also understanding that the person that you're talking to, yes, you know, they exist within a larger group, whether it be gender or sex or whatever. But they're also individuals who are dealing with their own problems. that you don't know about. And I just think the way we have these conversations just makes me sad more than anything. How about, are there particular things kind of that happened to you when you were like 20 or

maybe even younger where you felt like you had a particular struggle that was very important to you that people didn't seem to. You know, I can't pinpoint a moment. I just know what it's like to go through life without a mentor. And to go through life having to figure it out as a young adult and to have no resources. to help you. Like, I know how lonely that is

and how frightening that is and how inadequate and, like, shitty you feel. It's not a one-time thing. It's like an everyday thing for a lot of young folks. And it just seems like,

when you're in that low. What do they live with every day? Just tremendous anxiety about like not knowing where the future is going and feeling like they're supposed to have their shit together, but they don't. And feeling like, feeling like they're not good enough

while everyone else is. Because you just, you know, you go to Instagram, but you just like, damn, everyone's popping. They live in their best life, right? And it's just like, that's not what's happening behind closed doors. But that's the perception you have. You feel alone and struggling. That's what it is. You just feel inadequate.

Talk to any, like, 18 to 21 year old. And they'll say, they'll be like, man, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm in school. I don't like my major. I'm in debt. I don't know what I want to do with my future. Women don't like me. It's like, God damn, it's a lot of struggles.

And, you know, I understand that women go through on the same side. I'm not discounting that. For me, as a man, I understand that experience a little bit better. So that's just why I speak to it. Well, so I think there's there is a big difference. And here I may say something that will get me canceled. But what I'm hearing from you is that the response. So like I think I agree with you that men and women all share that.

I've had, you know, my lion's share of men and women who each struggle with 18 years old and being directionless and being in debt and whatnot. Yeah. What I am hearing is that I do think there's a certain amount of acceptableness to invalidate men's. struggles. So what I'm hearing from you is that, you know, if you complain, there are going to be people out there who will say men are trash, what are you complaining about? And I think that we all struggle and we all suffer. This is what Buddha said. He said that, you know, there are two guaranteed things in life. And he didn't really break things down by race or class or ethnicity or gender. And the two things that all human beings are entitled to in life are suffering and death.

And I think that, you know, I tend to agree with him that suffering is sort of a universal human condition. But what I'm kind of hearing from you is that because what seems like what really grates you is the invalidation of your struggle. Like the struggle is shared, but the way that people listen to your struggle. And that's sort of what I'm hearing is that, you know, even if we think about these like sexual assault victims who are men and who kind of are like, you know, you should. be happy that your teacher is sleeping with you at the age of 15. Sure. What are you complaining about? You know, you know, even I hold some of these bad ideas.

What do you mean? I hold some of these bad. Like like conceptually, I agree with you that it's terrible that a teacher would sleep with a 50 year on. In my mind, for whatever conditioning, I'm just like, hey, man, good job. And it's a terrible sentiment. Yeah. And I can acknowledge it's not based on anything, but it's just, I've been programmed.

I'm like, I'm not, I had a teacher I liked. I wish you would have. It's not a good thing to think, but I also participate that at times. So I have to check myself. But what you said about the suffering is something I agree. I agree that it's part of our experience. I just think I wish we wouldn't go to such lengths to create more suffering for others. Or if people are suffering to make them feel like they're suffering, it doesn't matter.

I think my goal in life is to try to alleviate people suffering as much as I can, even though people need to have a certain level of it. and to not try and create more for others. I think that's my goal. So, yeah, I just have a hard time when people actively don't realize in which ways they may be creating some and don't seem to care at all. That's like the struggle I have. So just something for you to think about, Ab, I don't think we need to get into this. But I would really invite you to explore kind of on your own if there have been.

So the emotional energy when we talked about the invalidation of people's struggles and when I mentioned toxic. masculinity, when I see that emotional energy in people, oftentimes it stems from like actually like a bizarrely unrelated personal experience. And I think we're hearing the themes of you kind of being alone and maybe there are, because I think, you know, oddly enough, we didn't really get into this, but you kind of said that you felt ashamed of reaching out to other people for help. And the interesting thing is that shame is learned, right? So like, like human beings aren't born with that. In fact, babies reach out for help all the time. So that shame of being inadequate and needing help from someone else is something that we're taught and conditioned to do.

And so oddly enough, you know, if we think about why did you feel ashamed asking for help, it's probably because if we kind of track that back, it's probably because there were times in your life where you did reach out for help and then your struggle was essentially invalidated. And someone made you feel like, right? Like, that's how you're going to develop. up that shameful condition. Okay. Can I ask you something in your practice when you're speaking to men, do you not feel like they have that same experience of reaching out for help?

Absolutely. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. That's why I'm telling you that I've walked this journey with many men. And the fact that you respond very emotionally to like when I mentioned toxic masculinity, you just get pissed, right?

Like it's like some slumbering giant wakes up within you. And like you equate that to. men and trash that goes to an invalidation of the struggle and pain that you feel, which in turn probably relates. I'm making a real stretch here, okay? So each step at these is like 10% chance of being right. But because it is a shared experience, which is why I can lay this out for you or other people that are watching, right?

So like, if that pisses you off, then chances are like you have personally felt like that's personal emotional energy about you've been on the receiving end of that stick, which is why it hurts so much when you see other people doing it, you know, to like, like, victimizing, like 20-year-olds. You imagine 20-year-old you who's seeing on Twitter that men are trash. And, like, he doesn't have the fortitude that you have to, like, not internalize that. Yeah. Yeah. And oddly enough, that's something that you understand because at one point you didn't have the internal fortitude to internalize it, which is exactly what you did. And that's sort of why we get to 18 year olds because it's interesting because it's not like a catastrophic

emotional moment that we're going to have an emotional catharsis about it's going to be like these little bits of like conditioning that happen about you know when you were seven years old there was one day that you like didn't know how to do your math homework and then like you know you tried to talk to someone about it and they were like shouldn't you know how to do this okay I actually got something for you okay this is one that's stuck it's one of the few childhood So I remember, oh man, this is taking me so far back. This is the first time. I was 12.

It was 12, I think. Could be wrong about the age. It doesn't matter. We would do this thing at school where once it would snow real bad, we would make these snow forts. And everyone would make their own. And then obviously a little bit of water would fall and it would get iced up. And there was this girl who lived across the street from me. And my neighbor, we'd take the bus, the whole group of us to take a bus, but she'd be part of that.

group. And, man, I remember having a crush on this girl. I'll never forget. I used to have a big crush on this girl, but I never talked about it. And, um, you know, when you're a kid and you have a crush on somebody, sometimes you might be like a little bit mean to them. And so I had a little habit of, like, going back and forth with her like that as a kid. I remember this. And one morning, we came to school and her fort had been destroyed as well as like two other three forts. She went to the principal and she said, Abba did it. Aba destroyed my fort. And so I got called into the principal's office, and I'm just standing here.

She's there. So I was like, oh, what's she doing here? And the principal asked me why I destroyed the forts. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like, well, people want to know why. I was like, I didn't do anything. Do you think I came to school early to destroy things? You think I walked here?

And they're like, well, everyone's saying it's you. And I was like, I didn't do it. I don't know what to tell you. Like, I didn't do it. And remember, they called my parents. to turn into something. And I'll never forget this. I think it was like two days later.

I got called back into the office. And the girl was there and she was crying. The principal's standing there and her dad's there. And I'm just like, what did I do this time? And he says, she has something she would like to say. And she said, I'm sorry. And I'll say, what happened? And she's like, turns out the janitor was getting tired of these snow forts when he was

cleaning the yard. So he just ran over them just to fly. flatten them out and clear them out of the way. And I remember being so mad. I just remember being so angry because I'm like, everybody looked at me like I was garbage for a couple of days. Just like, she's like being accused and like how her word was inherently taken as true.

And I just remember being so mad that day. And I accepted her apology and went back. But I don't know why. That memory always stuck with me as the first time. I was accused of something I didn't do. And it just, I remember being so mad about that. Yeah, that's probably the experience.

Yeah, so that's it. Yeah, that's a good one. I have never brought that up before. Yeah, so it's interesting, right? Like how the mind works, how like your mind just like jumps to that experience. Because what I'm hearing, so I'm going to try to interpret this a little bit for you, okay? Because like it feels a little bit off to me, but I think it's actually it. It's that emotional energy.

Like now I'll ask you, Abby, you know, just something for you to think about when you hear the word toxic masculinity, Does the quality, color, and flavor of the emotion you feel feel similar to what you felt in that second principal's office? Oh, yeah, for sure. It's just the idea, it's the idea that, like, you're wrong. Without any concept of who I am, like, you're wrong. It's that similar idea. So I would be inclined to agree with you. Right.

So which is why your mind jumped there because it's, but like there's a lot of subtlety there, right? Because like what I'm hearing is that like when she had a grievance, what happened? When she was hurt, what happened? And then what happened? She was heard. She was heard, right? You were called in. There was a trial.

People were called in. Everyone said you do it. There was an investigation. And when you were hurt, what happened? People thought you were trash for days. What happened when you were hurt? Yeah. I think I was just, I was given a small apology and then I shot out the door.

Absolutely. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And let me ask you another question. Were you pressure or forced into accepting her apology?

Yeah. I think I was just expected to accept it. Right? So like when you're a 12 year old boy and there's a girl crying and she apologizes, you don't get to say, fuck you. No. Right. Even though that's how you feel. Mm-hmm.

So in that moment, it's sort of like, it's incredible. incredibly invalidating. Right? And it's like, it's just, it's like night and day. Yeah. And I think it speaks to a lot of like resentment that you carry with you, which is justified. But I think still is going to color the way that you look at things. For sure.

Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I mean, you know, and similar experience like that I've played out throughout my life where culpability is just automatically assumed for reasons I can't explain so I attribute to gender. But it's just like, it's a tough thing to accept. When you think of yourself as like somebody who has some measure of integrity, and that's immediately thrown out the window because for whatever reason, it's a hard thing to stomach. It's like I didn't do anything wrong in this moment, but I'm immediately seen as evil. It's a hard thing to accept and to, yeah, it's just hard. It's a very difficult thing for me to accept.

Yeah. I mean, what I'm hearing is that you're being blamed for men being trash. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And it's compounded by the idea that sometimes it's like, you know, because I don't, I don't necessarily experience it when men are trash. I'm not there in those intimate moments with women where they're being violent. So I don't know what that feels like. I can hear about it and I can sympathize. But I do know what it feels like to be falsely accused by somebody who did something terrible to you. And because they're a woman, they're like inherently seen as like they couldn't have done it. And it's a tough thing to. stomach. So I think that's why I probably feel more strongly about that, because that's what I have visceral experiences with. Absolutely. You know, like my, my negative experiences with men could have probably been ranging from when I was like 14 to 17. And there was always a catharsis. We got into a fight. We exhausted all our energy. One person, one person lost, and I move away. But there was never this idea that you're evil because you did this. It was like, we're going to just duke it out as equals and then that's it, you know? And I can live with that. What I couldn't understand was like,

no, this person was wrong, but I'm seen as a guilty party. That's a hard thing to stomach. And I don't even talking about when I was like 17. I'm like talking about even later on in life. So that's a tough part, I think, for me. Has there been another time where, you know, you've been right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

It was crazy. This girl tried to pressure me to kiss her. I'm like, I don't want to. Like, I told her multiple times. I'm not interested. And, you know, because I felt like it was too soon for me and I just didn't want to in that moment. But I was interested in this person, but I just felt like the way she was going about it, I wasn't feeling. And I remember a week later, right? We were having this conversation

and she was, this is like in 2018, so primetime, you know, Harvey Weinstein's out there. And she was having this conversation about like men have to be more conscious about the fact that they're pressure women. And I was like, you did that to me like a week ago. I couldn't believe it in that moment, you know? And it was just such a weird thing to me. It was like, that even to this day It triggers me. I see that. The audacity for you to have this speech for me right now, when you are not even taking culpability for the things that you've done.

And it is just, that's the frustrating part. But like I said, I feel this viscerally because of the fact that there are my experiences with women, right? And I feel this viscerally because I only date women. So the things that men are doing that may be merit the whole man are trash, I don't see them. Because a lot of this stuff often happens behind closed doors or things like that. And, you know, there are too many parties present.

So I'm not discounting the idea that these things happen or that women are suffering. I would never do that. But I'm like, I can only speak to what I see. And that's what's going to color my perspective. Yeah. So I just want to share a couple of like maybe academic thoughts. Sure, for sure. Go for it.

So, you know, the first is that I want to just invite you to question your earlier assertion, like the assertion you just made, that I don't see that. So I think this is something where, you know, a lot of men, I know certainly since I've started looking for it that like if you actually look at it objectively, there may be more of it than you realize. And I think it's true of women too where where, you know, like sometimes it's kind of interesting because what I work with my female clients, sometimes I'll ask a question. Like we'll be talking about something in therapy and I'll ask them like, what would your girlfriends say about this? And like, you know, their response is always like their girlfriends

are overwhelmingly supportive irrespective of like how this person may have screwed up. And, you know, in some cases, you'll have like married women that have affairs and stuff and their girlfriends are like 100% supporting them. Right. And so, you know, I'm a big fan of being authentic. And then I'm, you know, so I'll ask for permission to be like a little bit more judgmental. I don't even ask them. Like, can I be judgmental in this moment? Yeah.

And so if you really, so I think like we have a tendency when we're with our group to, you know, gloss over a lot of things and say we haven't seen them because you haven't been. in on the receiving end. But behind some of these closed door conversations that may get people canceled, there may be more evidence of toxicity, you know, directed from men towards women that we sort of like pass off based on our language. So I'd encourage you to just really be a little bit like careful and objective about that. I'm not saying that, you know, you're, sometimes there's more toxicity that we take for granted because it's so normative, right? And like certainly we've been talking about the normative toxicity that men put on themselves. And there may be other kinds of toxicity.

There's just something to think about. No, no, no, you're right. And biases like that probably have clouded my conversations with people in my time on Earth. And I would be inclined to agree. I think it's just hard to recognize where those blinders are because a lot of this happens in gray areas. You know, like even when I recount the story of the girl to other people, sometimes they don't even see it even after I explain them to. So it can be difficult to see that. And I would be inclined to agree with you that I could do a better job in that regards.

Yeah. But that's the nature of blinders, right? Like, we don't blame you for having blinders because that's just what the mind does. It has all these kinds of blinders. And that's the nature of bias. And so that's number one. So the second thing that I just want to touch on, which is, you know, I'd love to get your thoughts. So, you know, I tossed out this term toxic masculine. And we went on a beautiful tangent, my favorite of the day. It was, it really, Abbott's lovely to see how, like, animated and passionate. And, like, when you get that plus the thoughtfulness, like, I don't know why. I mean, the stories really weren't positive in any way, shape, or form. But just hearing the way, is something about your storytelling capability or something. I just really enjoyed hearing that. And I felt like, I felt oddly enough happy that you were able to sort of share that, even though it's kind of an ugly story if you really think about it. Yeah.

Yeah. You know. But you know, it's interesting. Even your response to the story indicates the different perception of it. Because I feel like, again, this is probably my bi-issues again, but it's one of those things where it's like, we can have this conversation in it not be too much of an issue. I think maybe I'm wrong. Precisely because of the different genders. Do you know what I mean?

What do you mean? Meaning like as I'm talking about this, right? and we're having this conversation about bringing pressure, like even though intellectually we might look at it and be like, yeah, that was terrible and toxic. I think subconsciously, we don't infer that same implication. We don't actually see it as necessarily being as terrible as the action itself would normally dictate.

Does that make sense? I see it as terrible. Right. I think you see it as terrible too. I don't even think I do. That's the fucked up part. Yeah. So here's the reason I think you think it is terrible on a subconscious or unconscious level.

There are parts of you that don't. But like the fact that I mentioned to you that there's going to be, you know, maybe you can look for a time in your life where your struggles were horribly invalidated. Right. And your mind goes there. That tells us that like you do feel on some level. Like your mind can like I'm talking about a position where your struggles are invalidated and you're unfairly judged and your mind is like,

Like, here, we've got it. We found the file. Right. It jumps right there. So that, that I think, even though I don't doubt that society has taught you, because that's what happened, right? In that moment, is society taught you that, like, she's been, the entire school has thought you're an asshole for two days.

And it's not like, the apology should be public in front of the school assembly. Because they've been, you know, and like, did anyone know that she apologized? Did anyone know that you were falsely accused? So the shaming was public, but the apology was private and then you were expected to move on. That is society's response to you being wronged. Right? And so no surprise that you were taught or conditioned to feel like you don't get to complain. Like, who are you to complain?

Does that make sense? So I get that you're a condition. But I also think that your mind's ability to connect those two dots means that there's also some of amount of like authentic, like you recognize that that really was not fair and was screwed up. I agree. I think my question lies more in the fact, do other people have that connection? And if they don't, how do they perceive it? Because I think it's fine for you to feel like something that justly happened to you. But if other people around you don't acknowledge it, it can feel very, you start to question it. I start to gaslight myself and to be like,

did anything really happen? And so I think that's more so my issue, more than anything. Sure, sure. So I think that too, I'm guessing that there's going to be other stories about that. There are going to be stories where as you grow older and you become more like assured of yourself, I bet you if we dug around, we would find stories where like you felt a particular way. I mean, we've even heard a couple, right? Where like there are these people publicly talking about bound setting and respecting, you know, people. And then like, here they are like groping you and, you know, trying to get a piece of ABBA. Yeah.

Because that's, that's a fine piece of meat. And, and then they're like, you know, they're talking one way. And you know what I question? I question whether or not that kind of stuff has any kind of subconscious negative consequences in the sense that like it's one thing to say things. But I think people really resonate with how you act. And in terms of the messaging, I wonder if that's not backwards. It's like we can say things intrinsically. Like, oh, we can say like, oh, you know, we shouldn't do this.

to each other or like, oh, you know, I know plenty of people like, gender rolls are terrible. And then like, you see their dating life and they subscribe to them 150% all their choices and how they want to live. And I'm like, are we doing something that's super confusing in the sense that, you know, we can say whatever we want. But the way that we act really encourages people to not act in line with what we aspire to be, but more so how we're being. Does that make sense? Yeah, I didn't quite follow you, but I think I know what you're saying. So here's what I would say to that. It is very common for someone to publicly support a righteous cause. and their ego to excuse them being an asshole in their personal life because they support a good cause.

I don't know if that's speaking to what you're saying, but I think that we see this, I see this like a seeming contradiction very often. And there's even a term for it in psychology, which is reaction formation. So it's a defense mechanism. Okay. Where like the classic example of reaction formation is the person who's actually gay who becomes a homophobic. Oh, okay. I see. Yes.

Right. So, like, they feel so ashamed of, like, what they are on the inside that they, like, they're taught to hate it. And then they, like, resent themselves. They're very kind of, like, ugly on the inside. They have a lot of resentment, a lot of pain, a lot of suffering. And then they channel that towards the outside world and, like, hate gay people. And so. Yeah. I think it's not necessarily what I'm going. I think where I'm trying to go is like, you can have a parent that tells you to not be physically violent with others. But if they beat you, do you go on to say that's an acceptable. response or do you like, do you base your reality off of what they did rather than what they said? Does that make sense? Absolutely. No. Yeah. You base your reality off of the fucking confusion of being in that situation. Okay.

Okay. Cool. Right? And so I'll give you just another example. Most of the advice that we give to other human beings is based on the resentment for what we, of the mistakes that we've made in the past. Sure. I would agree with that.

Right. So like there's definitely like some kind of connection and tension between what you say and what you do. And there's a reason why human beings are like hypocritical. Like there's all kinds of psychological reasons why we're hypocritical. Reaction formation is one. One is like it all, you know, it comes from our own resentment. Even the political, not political, but like the views that we're talking about today, I think if we really look at the Maba are deeply rooted in your personal experiences, which is reasonable, right? That's just how we learn to care about particular things. That's fair. That's fair. Kind of the last sort of academic point that I wanted to mention was kind of back. to toxic masculinity.

And it was sort of like, we're trying to figure out what to do about this because the term means so many different things to so many different people. Right? So some people equate toxic masculinity as masculinity is toxic. Sure. Right. So that's sort of the men is trash. Masculinity is inherently evil, patriarchal, whatever, you know, paternal, whatever.

Then there's kind of another perspective on it, which is that there's like healthy masculinity and there's toxic masculinity, that there are some gender roles which are actually like okay to have and can even be healthy, like competitiveness, taking accountability, which don't necessarily have to be gendered, but sort of are gendered.

And that somewhere along the way, like, you know, learning to be self-sufficient crosses a certain, like, gray area into the bridge of like self-isolation, you know, and sort of like being in control, of your emotions starts to mean, like, I think a good example is sort of this apology that you were kind of forced into because you can't really, like, you can't really say, no, I don't accept your apology, right? You're not allowed to do that. Yeah. And so there are certain aspects of

masculinity which can become toxic, but that masculinity in and of itself is not inherently bad, which is a separate argument. But, and so I'm not quite sure, because I do think there's a lot of confusion around these terms and like what it means. You know, you're smiling again. So, Penny for your thoughts. No, no. I'm actually just listening intently. While I'm going. So, so I think this is something that we're kind of working through. It's something that we do research on. And I'm just kind of curious. So I, you know, I understood your reaction, but I just wanted to share sort of how we're thinking about it, which is like trying to figure out, you know, is certain amount okay? And then like, what is the difference between health?

healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity. Yeah. Yeah. I think even getting to that point and having that discussion is difficult for people. Because the terms are so loaded and because, like, again, you know, so many varying definitions

and oftentimes we're having these discussions on public platforms and 140 characters. It's tough to get a good perception of the term. And I think branding wise, I think people hate marketing terms in terms of civil discourse, but I think it matters. I think how things are branded,

inherently creates biases and natural reactions to things that cloud the possibility of good discourse. And I think most men's reaction when they hear that term is viscerally negative. And so you can't even get past the layer of explaining what's going on behind it because they're so reactionary to the term you've just used. So I think that's one hurdle. that's like very difficult to cross for most people. I think I can intellectually do it and be able to hear it. I get what you're saying. You know what?

I agree with you. But I also know for most folks, they're not going to get to that point. And that's a tough thing to hear. Yeah. That's my thoughts on that. That first hurdle seems to be the one that most people have difficulty with. And there's also a question to be asked.

Like, are we using the right words? And some people are like, well, what does it matter? There's a problem. I'm like, it does matter, though. The words you use have visceral reactions for everyone, you know, whether you use words like moist and people are just instantly grossed out, even though you're talking about a countertop that is moist. Just the idea that people like, ugh, they hear the word. Our words matter. What words we use matter?

And I think that's such a, it seems like such a minor detail, but I think it's like one of the largest impediments to a real discussion on what I think I agree with you, which is the idea is like sometimes, you know, masculine, traditionally masculine traits can be taken too far. they do become bad. Aggression is a perfect example. I think men, you might correct me if I'm wrong, men are overrepresented on one end of the scale in terms of aggression, correct? I don't know what you mean by that question. When we talk about the big five, right, I'm pretty sure when it comes to like aggressive type behaviors, are men not overrepresented?

What do you mean by overrepresented? Do you mean greater than 50% of aggressive behaviors are done by men? I actually don't know that statistic off the top of my head. Okay, I could be wrong. I think I know with like conscientious or like, you know, ideas like compassion. I think women might be more represented in some regards to like men when it comes to violence. Like they're much more represented on the extremes, if I remember correctly. That's what I remember.

So at times like violent crime traditions, why it's a white men are present there. Whatever. Where was I going with this? Okay, yes. I can agree that if you overrepresent men in certain areas, certain personality traits, that yes, I could definitely understand that, okay, toxic masculine. I could see how that's represented. And I think the discussion is valid. Again, I just think it really comes down to the branding more than anything.

That would be my. Yeah. So I think when it gets to statistics, we get into a really tricky situation. So, like, just to give you an example, there was a paper that showed that being on antidepressants during pregnancy doubled your risk of having an autistic child. So people, like, when this paper came out, people freaked out because, like, doubling your risk. The other thing that you have to remember is that, like, media organizations are not about accurate representation of knowledge. They're about clicks, right? So, like, they're going to make things as inflammatory as possible.

Certainly one interpretation of the paper. The thing that people don't really get, though, is that if you look at statistically, doubling the risk sounds really, really bad, right? But I still think, like, 98% of autistic children are born to women without anti-eastern. Depressants and 98 to 99% of women on antidepressants do not have an autistic child. So it's kind of interesting because depending on how you look at the numbers, like the vast majority of autistic children are still born to people. It doubles your risk, but the risk is very, very small. And so just from an epidemiologic perspective, it's still like, you know, 99 out of 100 autistic kids are born to mothers without antidepressants. And if you have a 99, if you have it, if you're

taking antidepressants during pregnancy, you have a less than 1% risk of having an autistic child. And so I think when people ask these questions about males are overrepresented on the aggression scale, I don't know the data, but I know that you have to be really careful about interpreting that kind of data. Because my general perception about men in aggressiveness is that people overestimate the percentage of men who are aggressive. Yes. That's been my anecdotal experience. Yes. Yeah, I want to understand what you're saying. I think that's why I was more so talking about the extremes where it's like a very small, minute population size. But I get what you're saying. Yes. People just have to be. I just don't know what that means. And so I'm hesitant to say yes to that because like I think, you know, the vast, vast majority of men are not violent in any way. Yeah. What I meant to say, maybe I'll just try to clear it up is that idea like, When you see extremely high levels of aggressive or violent behavior,

traditionally men are overrepresented in that very small population. That I would completely believe. So that's what I was trying to say. I just didn't use my words well. So what you're saying is that if you take the 1% of the most violent human beings on the planet, most of them are more than 50% will be men. Yeah. Which I would completely believe that statistic.

Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think we both agree on that end. And, you know, one thing that was really interesting for me to read up on is the idea that, like, we're more alike than we are different in terms of, like, how those personality traits are represented. The idea like, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yeah. So, I mean, I was going to say just as a clinician, like, that's been my experience is that I certainly think that they're unique gender issues. But at the end of the day, I'm sort of in Buddhist camp, which is that if you're born, you're S-O-L. Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at that. And so it's kind of like, you know, everyone sort of deserves support and help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So how are you feeling about today's conversation? I mean, did we cover most of what you were kind of looking for or? Yeah. No. I think it was a great discussion and I went in depth on certain things that I haven't had an opportunity to discuss before. So that was great. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I sort of feel like we're at a natural stopping point or pausing point maybe is a better way to talk about it makes me think back to, you know, these emails that I wrote to my friends and a couple years ago. And I remember I showed them to one of my, one of my colleagues. And I was like, you know, I was thinking about talking about some of this stuff publicly. And I was like, you know, but I'm not ready to yet because I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose my job, you know, at Harvard and academic position. And he was like, oh, no, no, no, if you talk about this, you're not going to just lose your academic position, you're going to lose all of your positions.

And so I was like, oh, okay, interesting. Yeah, got to make strategic moves. I know we're probably nearing the end, so I don't want to keep you too long. But there's one last thing I want to touch on that. I think this is not related to this topic. But I wanted to know, I think oftentimes we talk about depression and issues like that, affecting us in the first person. But I wanted to know what you think about having people around you that are depressed.

Like I have someone who is almost like a little brother, going through, I don't know that I say it's depression, but clearly, according to him, huge bounce of anxiety, he has a hard time functioning. And I, as his friend as somebody who loves him, I have a hard time knowing how to help him in those situations or what I can't do beyond listening because he feels like I feel like he's so deep in it, you know? And just to give you an idea, like I'm convinced, I believe this wholeheartedly. Like, I'll get a call any day and just hear that he's gone, you know? And as a friend, it's kind of hard to do with that kind of powerlessness because I see him suffering and I just

don't know how to manage that. Is that too much to ask at the end? Nope. I mean, in a sense, yes, but it needs to be asked and it sounds certain. important, so ask it. Can I just think for a second? By all means. What's it like being in the position you're in? What's it like sort of trying to support him and him being kind of in a dark place? Futile. Futile. Because I know he has to take those steps, but as someone who's watching the suffering happening in front of them, it's like difficult. What are the steps he has to take? I'm not sure.

I know how I function, so I know how I can move forward. I can't, I don't want to impose my experience of my way of viewing things on him, considering he might have a different experience or might have different needs, you know? So just so I don't know what those steps are, but I know that there may be things that he has to accept or do things that I don't know what those are. You feel powerless? Yeah. I mean, I think as a friend, you always want to be able to lend a helping hand. and so you want to lend a helping hand what are you doing aside from listening and checking in i don't

know what else to do you know i say hey man if you need to talk what's what's the value of listening and checking in checking in i think there's huge value in it i think it definitely helps people feel like they matter in some sense i hope i think i think i'm worried it'll feel futile or not enough if that person is gone do you do what i'm saying Yep. I, yeah. So here's what I'm hearing that you're doing, okay? You're helping him understand that he matters. Your words. Right? What do you think about that? It feels like the most I can do. Because I've pondered it and I don't feel, I don't think I can do anything else. Yeah. So I think that I'm going to give you just a little bit of maybe additional stuff you can do. But I think, think the first thing to understand for people in your situation is that you are doing more,

way more than you realize, like way, way, way more. And the reason is because, like, so we tend to view our value, like, you know what you're doing. It just doesn't appear to be helping, right? Because it seems like he's not getting better. So the first thing to understand is that sometimes, like, if you look at psychiatric treatment, like people will be in psychiatric treatment for a year or two, and they're not getting better. And so one way to interpret that is that, you know, we're not helping him because treatment doesn't seem to be working. But the other thing that sometimes you discover is that your treatment is the only thing that's

keeping them afloat. Right? So they're taking on a bunch of water and you're bailing it with a bucket on a daily, like weekly basis with treatment. So this is something that I see very, very commonly when friends ask me, what more can I do? The first thing is that they almost universally grow. mostly underestimate the impact that they're having. So you're saying I can't, I feel like I'm not doing anything, whereas my estimation is you're doing

actually like 80% of it. Because I want you to imagine what it's like to be in that person's shoes and be in such a dark spot. And to have one beacon of person, someone who no matter what their mind tells them, there's one person in their life that is listening to them and is, is, is, is, signaling to them, you matter. Like, that's all a human being needs. And when people really, like, kill themselves and stuff like that, what they lose is

they lose that last beacon. It becomes completely dark. Right? So I want to really emphasize that, like, one beacon, and I've been, you know, once again, anecdotal experience. But I've, you know, I've heard from people who, because, you know, I talk to people who are deeply suicidal for long periods of time about like what keeps them going. And I cannot tell you how many times I've heard just the most random things that seem so insignificant, like their cat.

Right? Like what would happen to their cat if they died? And that a lot of times like people will say like this is the one person. You should go back. I forget if it's the porn addiction stream or the burnt out gifted kids stream. We had a stream where some guy was talking about like he was so close to suicide, except there was one random person on the internet that they would like talk to every single day. And like, I remember we were joking at the end of the stream about how like that person is the hero. And the thing is like that person is never going to know. Yeah. Right? Because you're just not going to get that feedback. And this is where, you know, I hate to break it to you, but I'm very good at my job. And I can't keep someone alive.

Right. Right. So that outcome, there's another subtle thing that your mind is doing, which is that if I do more, I can prevent a particular outcome. No, you can't. Can you do more? Sure. Can you do less?

Sure. Right. But you can't. Your fear that you're going to wake up one day and discover that he's gone is not something that you can actually control. You can be really good. And believe me, I'm really good. And I've learned that less than the hard way.

Right. Right. That as human being, I fundamentally cannot control the actions of another human being. No matter how many years I spent studying in India and what institutions I've trained at, I cannot keep someone from ending their life. I mean, I can in sort of acute and specific situations. And I do have a good impact on it. But at the end of the day, there's a certain amount that you just can't do.

I think I understand that intellectually. These are things I know. I think it's just coping with that reality that's difficult. Yeah, so that's where, so I get that you are. So then I think that this is where the conversation really becomes a longer conversation because in the same way that some of these like views around men's issues are tied to your personal experiences, there may be something here about, you know, when you were so alone and when you were so, you know, isolated in a dark place, there may be something there that, you know, I don't know.

I mean, I think if it's, if you want to understand it intellectually, but you feel a particular way, like there's an exploration process around those feelings that can lead us to some kind of understanding, which will then like decompress the feelings. Is it not possible that it's just a fear of the inevitable, inevitability? in the sense that like this is someone I just care deeply about and I see them suffering. And what you said is 100% correct. Maybe my impact is way higher that I'm estimating. I could actually probably concede that to you. But I think it doesn't, even though I know that and I know I can't do more, not futility. Abba, why do you think it's inevitable?

Just the way I hear him speak. And just the way I hear him speak. there's a certain like air of hopelessness that that he has when he speaks. And sometimes it fades, but then it comes back so strongly. So and then he and then and then and then there's like a disappearance. Yeah, go ahead. So you said the words we use matter, right? Sure. Yeah.

So they matter. The way we interpret words is based on our own experience. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if you're hearing his words, why does your mind interpret that as hopelessness? See, if you want to get to the bottom of this, that's where you have to go. Right.

Because I feel like I'm watching somebody in the loop and the loop seems never ending. Like where they were at day one and day 95 seems exactly identical or progressively getting worse. Is that even possible? How long has this person been in this loop? A few years. A few years. And so a few years, but I've watched it progressively get worse and more intense. and this person has like reiterated the idea that it's getting more intense.

Is this person getting professional help? I think they tried and didn't like the experience or they quit. So, you know, I've offered to pay for it and whatever, you know, but it's one of those things where unless they take the olive branch, I can't force it on them. Sure, but there are ways you can get them to take the olive branch. So here are a couple things you can do, okay? Very practically. All right.

So I know, like, I think this is definitely a longer discussion, but. let me try to at least give you a couple things because this is a question we get a lot. How can I help someone? So the first is I think you can share with them how you feel. So you can tell them that, you know, I hear that you're getting worse. I hear you've been struggling with this a long time. I'm trying to be here for you. I want to support you.

I'm always here to listen. And also I'm terrified that one day I'm going to wake up and you're not going to be here anymore. Can I ask just one thing right there? Does that not place more pressure on them? Yes. Yeah. It does. And is that a good or a bad thing?

It's a good thing. Okay. So here's why. So in relationships, we have caregivers and caretakers. Right? What are you in the relationship? The caregiver or the caretaker? The caregiver, I would assume.

And then they are the... Caretaker. So who's responsible for making things right? Hmm. Okay. I see what you're saying. I guess it would be me. Yep. Yeah. That needs to change. Right. Yeah. Even the framing of how you said it kind of threw me off a little bit. But okay. Yep. Right. So like this is where, because he does, so it's authentic. Can it be dangerous? Absolutely.

Can it pressure him more? Absolutely. Could it tip him over the edge? Absolutely. And this is a relationship. You aren't his doctor. Right. You're his friend. Right.

And so one of the best things you can do for another human being is let them take care of you. Hmm. Right? Like he has to understand that like, like this is the problem is it's all one way right now. Mm-hmm. And he's got to understand that like he carries some of this weight in this relationship. relationship. You can't carry it all on your own. And it's healthy for you to tell him, like,

I don't want to wake up and not have you there that day. And so it's like his responsibility to like alleviate that fear in you. And is that going to put pressure on him? Absolutely. And so then you talk about that. And you even say, I was afraid that if I shared this with you, it would be like too much for you to handle. But I've been sitting with this for a long time. And, like, like, I'm afraid. And because you're my friend, like, I hope I can share this with you. Is it okay that I shared it with you? Right? So I think this is a real problem with like mental illness. I see this a lot as a psychiatrist. It's like speaking of accountability. Too many psychiatrists take accountability away from their patients. And it's not healthy. It's how you create a dependent patient.

and part of what I have to do is like give that power back to them right like you have to give him you're saying that the issue is he's powerless like give him some of that power but here's the problem if you give him that power he could do something with it he could do the wrong thing but you're basically like you're surrendering that piece of the relationship to him and could it be too much for him to handle absolutely but is it healthy in the long run I think so you know if you're really dealing with issues of suicidality and stuff, I think what he really needs is professional help. But from a more, you know, macro level, like taking that kind of off the table, I want you and everyone else to understand that a lot of times the most important thing that you can do for someone is have faith in them to do it themselves. And sometimes that means like not protecting them from it, right? Because you're like so protective. You're like we talked about, oh, parental gatekeeping in here. You are.

Yeah. Because you're treating him like he's frail, but like it sounds to me like he's actually incredibly strong, that he's been sinking further and further below water for years and he's still around. Sounds incredibly resilient. Yeah. But, you know, I agree. I think he is resilient now. I think he's dealt with so much. And, you know, me knowing his life's journey, I agree.

I just worry that he gets to a point where enough becomes enough and he's tired of struggling, you know. And I can't tell somebody to keep suffering. but um so i think that that too is a reasonable thing for you to share with him that you you have that fear that enough is enough and then the more practical thing is i would really talk to him about you know asking about his experience of mental health treatment and and try to really direct him that way because this is really you know i don't know exactly what the situation is but it sounds like you're afraid and that he really needs help and so there's like you know one bad experience It doesn't, you know.

Yeah. It's like there are good burgers and there are bad burgers. You shouldn't write off all burgers based on just having one bad burger. I agree. I agree. So that's really what I would encourage him to do is to try to, you know, try to understand what his negative experience was and try to push him in the right direction. Okay.

Well, that was wonderful advice and it's something I'll probably get to right today. So thank you for that. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot for the conversation. and, you know, I hope things work out well. Yeah, I hope so. Good luck to you and your friend. Yeah.

And again, thank you for doing this. I honestly mean, a lot of people in my community reached out when they heard I was going to talk about the last subject. So you just taking the time to talk about that. It was good for me and for other folks. So I appreciate it. Oh, I loved it, man. I really enjoy talking to you. And I think it's, you know, you move really fast in terms of like having a view and being able to sit with new thoughts and different thoughts.

And so it's cool. It's refreshing. So thanks a lot. If you ever want to hit me up, hit me up. All right. We'll do, man. Take care. Cheers.