HealthyGamerGG - Dr. K Becomes the Client with No Motivation

Episode Date: August 6, 2022

Dr. K roleplays with an HG Coach today! The HG Coach is showing how they would help Dr. K if he felt like he was stuck, had feelings of "should", negative motivation, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Usually what happens with this kind of situation is we use pressure, we use shame, all these other things as negative motivation in our lives. And the reason we use negative motivation is because it works, because it's easy. So I'm going to go ahead and move to the interview screen so they'll be able to see you. So everyone say hello to Sidekick. I don't have chat open. That's fine. It will not be good for my focus. Yeah, good.

It's not good for my focus as well. So, Sidekick, your understanding is that, so we're going to be. be doing, let's try to get through like three. Okay. So we're going to do three role plays. The scenarios that we're going to... Actually, you know what? If you don't know what the scenarios are, we're not going to tell you which ones we picked.

Okay. Okay. So let's go ahead and start. Okay. I'm going to skip all the normal intro stuff for time's sake. Sounds good. Yeah. So what brings you into Healthy Gamer?

So I've been watching streams and YouTube for a little while, and I'm just kind of stuck. And I learned so much from that. I decided I'd kind of give coaching a shot. Okay. What do you mean you feel stuck? Well, like, I know there's a lot of stuff that I should be doing, and I just can't do it. Like, I think I'm low. I've also seen a lot of stuff on, like, five.

factor personality. I've watched a lot of Jordan Peterson stuff. I think I'm kind of low on the conscientiousness. And so, like, I just can't put my mind to things. So you're stuck in the sense of, like, it's hard for you to focus on stuff? Yeah, I mean, I can focus on some things, but I really like struggle in other areas. I'd say it's like more of like a motivational thing. Like, if I get interested in something, I can focus really, really well. The problem is that I know that there's that I should do that I'm just not motivated. Okay. By the way, if you ever see me looking this way, that's where I take notes.

Okay. What kind of notes are you taking? Just talking points, things that I might want to keep in mind or come back to. It helps me to look for patterns and stuff that we talk about. And then if I see a pattern, I can mention it to you. And then you can tell me if that pattern's real or not. Wow, that's actually really interesting. Yeah.

So you said you watched Dr. Kay. you said you watched Jordan Peterson, what kind of like patterns, what stuff resonates with you when you watch that kind of content? Well, I mean, I think that like I said, you know, so I know I'm capable of a lot. I just can't really bring myself to do it. And what I really liked about that stuff is like I've always been really, I feel like there's been a lot of judgment from my parents, from even my friends and stuff. and like even kind of from myself.

And what I kind of realized is that I just kept beating myself up for like not being able to do stuff. And that was actually kind of working. It's kind of weird. Like sometimes, you know, when I get really frustrated with myself, I'll get this burst of motivation or like, you know, two days before the test, I'll finally like crack and I'll start studying really, really, really hard. But then even afterward, I just feel, I don't know, like I know if I had started a few days earlier, like I just know I could do better. Okay. It sounds like when you get stuck, it's like there's this barrier in your way. And then you have to build up enough like pressure to break it or overcome it.

Yeah. I mean, the way that I've understood it is that since I have low conscientiousness, like there's something about, you know, something builds up and sometimes like I can motivate myself. But I think the problem is that, you know, I've got this like, you know, I's kind of born with this low conscientiousness. Okay. Can you define what you mean by that for me? Well, like there are two kinds of people, right? So there's people who are like intrinsically motivated and when they put their mind to something, they can do it. And then like people with low conscientiousness aren't like that.

So I don't know if you're kind of familiar with this area of research, but there are five dimensions. of personality. And one of the dimensions is conscientiousness. And it's, it's kind of like a scientific fact that there are like two groups of people. There's like discipline people and there's lazy people. Okay. And from the way you're describing it, it sounds like that's like a fixed quality. Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's scientific. Okay. Have you ever studied anything about fixed or growth mindsets? No. I mean, I know mindset is important. Sure. So just so you're aware, my background's as a teacher. I taught for about eight years. Interesting.

The way I run coaching sessions, a lot of times I end up teaching people things. And then we kind of wrap that back around into whatever they want to talk about. So one of the things I'd like to teach you today is about growth versus fixed mindsets if you're okay with that. Yeah, I mean, if you think it'll be helpful. Yeah. So the idea of growth versus fixed mindset is understanding like growth as in the capability of, becoming something different, of growing, of changing, fixed being more static, isolated, this just is the way it is kind of thing. Okay.

What happens with a growth mindset is you're able to kind of take criticism and use that as motivation to change something. What happens with fixed mindsets is when that criticism comes in, you view it as a static fact that you're not good enough. Hmm. And from what I'm hearing from a lot of the things you're saying, it sounds very much like you're in that fixed mindset place. Does that sound true to you?

Well, I mean, sort of, but like, isn't it, I mean, all this research about conscientiousness is kind of true, right? Like... It's true in the sense that, like, personality theory is, like, really a sociological study. So it's more about trends than about hard facts. Hmm. Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow that.

Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah. So, for example, they might say something like, oh, like the average person has this much of a conscientiousness score, but there's so many other variables that play into that and how that person would act on any individual day based on their own past experiences. So a lot of times those things break into like 70, 30 categories, and you might be in the 70 or you might be in the 30, but it doesn't mean like you're hard committed to that thing. So if 70% of people who do this thing are conscientious, you might be in the 30% where you're

still conscientious, but you don't do that thing. Oh, that's kind of interesting. So I guess what you're saying is that a lot of this personality stuff is like population-based kind of. Yeah, yeah. It's more like kind of widespread statistics, as opposed to applying directly to one individual. And you were saying that you think I have like a fixed mindset? Yeah. So the idea of a fixed mindset is very static, right?

So for example, what you were saying is like there's two kinds of people. There's people who are born with this intrinsic motivation and people who are aren't and you feel like you're in that not category. Yeah. So the real question is like between the 60 growth is do you feel you can change that? Well, that's interesting because I, you know, my, my first thought is like, hold on a second. I got to like, like this is interesting because I mean, I was about to say, I think you're debating me a little bit because like if I were to say I can't change, then you're going to say, well,

that's the fixed mindset. Sure. and it's interesting. I mean, I guess because you're also calling it a mindset, right? Which means, like, logically it should be, like, changeable. Yeah. But there could be, like, different things in the way of that happening easier or not. Yeah, I mean, I guess I can change.

I mean, that's why I'm here because I think that, like, I've seen people change. You know, I've seen a lot of people in this community change and talk about how much they've changed. So I'm kind of, like, open to that. Is that something that you can use? help me like adopt a growth mindset? Yeah, we can totally do that. Cool. So basically the way this starts in, like I understand the feeling of being jubated in that

kind of situation, coaching works like a choose your own adventure. So there's not like a right answer to any of my questions. We're going to talk about whatever's in the way for any of these things. So if we're talking about a fixed versus growth mindset and you ended up in the fixed side, that's fine. We would just start there. We would start on whatever page that is and then move on down to choose your adventure path. And then the same thing here where you say, I do want to change. I do think it's possible.

Well, great. Now we're going to start there. We're going to start with what do you want to change? So what do you want to change? I want to be able to like motivate myself better. Okay. Like I want to be able to do the things that I know I should do. So it's the, I think, second or third time you've used the idea of should.

Where does that come from for you? Like, why should you do that? I mean, because, like, look, I'm 23. I graduated a little over a year ago. I still don't have a job, right? Like, I mean, I should be moving out of my parents' place. I should be financially independent. Like, I don't know.

I kind of feel like that's, I mean, Isn't that just what we're supposed, like, we're all supposed to do something? You know, like, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of weird to be like where I, like, isn't where I'm supposed to be. Yeah. But for you, like, where are those shoulds coming from? Like, who told you that that's a rule about life? I don't really know. I've never really thought about that.

I mean, I just, you know, it's just, I mean, like. So first thing is like, you know, my parents are every month, or not even every month. I mean, it used to be every day. Like, they'd ask me like, hey, how's the job search going? How's the job search going? I don't think they get that it's hard. Like, COVID has screwed the economy. Like, you know, there are some jobs out there, but they pay so low that it's not, it's

going to just destroy my mental and like not even going to help me move towards my goals. You know, the jobs that I want, like, I'm kind of a long shot for. you know, part of the issue is that my major, I was really excited about one thing, but like, I think I want to kind of like make a career shift. And, and so there's just a lot of stuff that like, you know, it just sometimes feels impossible. And like my parents are kind of like constantly reminding me, you know, like when is this happening? When is this happening? When is this happening? And then they're also saying stuff like, you know, you can stay as long as you want to, but like, you know, but, you know.

Yep, always there, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes it's hard. No, for sure. All of that sounds like, honestly, just a lot of pressure. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I, and this is the kind of thing where, like, it actually really does feel that way. I mean, I feel like I'm under so much pressure.

And I know that other people, like, you know, when you feel pressure, it's like, you can, you that pressure moves you. And even for me, it's moved me. Like, it's like when the, you know, my, my calculus finals is coming up in like three days, like that moves me. Something's changed, though, where like the pressure doesn't seem to be working anymore. Sure. Yeah, so it sounds like that pressure used to be your main motivator.

And now it's kind of stalled out. Yeah. That's a great way to put it, actually. And so, like, now I don't, I don't know what to do because, like, my engine's stalling. Mm-hmm. What if you didn't have to do all these things? I mean, I guess that'd be great. Right?

I could do what I want. What do you want? Damn. Not to be like this anymore. You know, I have passions. I have interests. I have hobbies. But, like, I can't, you know, even when I, like, think about doing those things, like,

there's just so much more important stuff to do. I wish I didn't, you know, I wish I had like won the lottery. I wish I was like born rich. I wish I could like actually do what I want to in life as opposed to like needing to do all these things. But I just, I don't know how to get started. Yeah. So it sounds like all of these things like that create this pressure from from you, from your family, from your friends, from society. It's created so much pressure that now you can't move.

And there are things that you want to do. there are things that you want to get out there and be a part of and progress in life and all of that, but you're paralyzed. Yeah, I mean, is that something you, yeah, I mean, I never really thought about it that way, but you know, you're kind of almost making it sound like it's not my fault. Do you feel like it is your fault? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, like, I'm the one responsible, right? Like, I'm the one who wakes up in the morning and, like, you know, plays games until 1 p.m.

and then tries to apply for a couple of jobs and then, like, plays games until midnight. So, I mean, clearly it's my fault, right? Like, who else's fault is it going to be? That's a lot to put on yourself. I mean, but isn't it true? To put all the pressures of society, and, like, it's your fault? Are you saying it's society's fault?

I'm actually a big fan of saying it's no one's fault. How does that work? Well, essentially when we talk about fault, we're talking about blame. and blame doesn't help us. Blame lets us discharge anger or frustration or hurt. It doesn't actually help us move forward. So whose fault something is doesn't actually help you deal with the fact that that's still a problem in your life. Wow, I've never really thought about it that way.

Teach me more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my favorite part of coaching. So, let's go back to the pressure idea. we've talked about all this pressure. It all exists, all this stuff. I'm going to kind of throw some generalities out there. Please correct me if any of these don't apply to you.

But usually what happens with this kind of situation is we use pressure, we use shame, all these other things as negative motivation in our lives. And the reason we use negative motivation is because it works, because it's easy. It's like getting fast food on the way home. It works and it's easy. We all know it's unhealthy, but we do it anyway. So we use this negative.

motivation as a way to get ourselves to do things, whether it's study for a test, apply for a job, talk to a girl, it doesn't matter, any of the things, right? So when we use that negative motivation, the actual problem with it, the reason we call it negative motivation is that it builds up these negative emotions within us, and then we build up tolerance or avoidance to those emotions. As humans, our natural instinct is to avoid things that are uncomfortable. So I don't want to go near my shame, shame feels bad. I'm going to go over here instead of I'm going to go play a game. I'm going to go see a movie. I'm going to do whatever else, right? And so as you build up this tolerance to your pressure, your negative motivation,

you need more and more pressure or negative motivation to overcome it. Huh. Interesting. So by negative... Does that feel like it's you? Yeah. I mean, it feels like every time I have to... That's so interesting. Like every time I feel like it takes more to get me to motivate myself. Like, you know, because like the urgency has to be like bigger and bigger and bigger. And at some point it almost feels like too overwhelming. And then like I just don't know how to start. Yeah.

I think if I was going to take a guess here, part of the reason you don't know how to start is because all of that pressure turns into expectation for how the thing is going to end before you've even taken step one. I'm kind of confused. What do you mean by that? So you have all this pressure on yourself about finding a job, being independent, moving out, all of these other things. What happens is those turn into expectations. You expect yourself to do it.

You think your parents expect you to do it, whether that's overtly displayed or kind of passively displayed or whatever it might be. And then now we're looking at the result of you getting a job and moving. out as a you must do that. It's an expectation. But isn't that, I mean, how else am I supposed to know what to do? So it's not that you can't move that direction. It's again that if that is what you're evaluating yourself on is, have I already moved out? Have I already gotten a job? Have I already done all those things? Well, right now you haven't. So right now it's going to go back to that negative emotion. It's going to go back to shame. It's going to go back to pressure.

So how do I change that? we have to flip it so that you're working on where you are now, not working on where you want to be. That sounds great. Yeah. How do I flip it? Way better. So the first step for this is, like, it's a really simple trick. And people, this is another jubated thing.

People never believe me when I tell them it's this easy. You have to be already good enough. The example I always use for this is like job interviews. right so in a job interview people oftentimes view that as I'm going to the job interview so they can tell me if I'm good enough for that job or not and that's actually the wrong way to look at it because you're letting that person and the result of that interview judge you but wait I'm going sorry go ahead but like I mean isn't that exactly the point of a job interview to see if you're good enough for the job how does that how does that work bro the job interview is the opportunity

for the interviewer to see that you are good enough. You're already good enough. They might see it and they might not. And this is where we get back to mindset. It's your mindset going into the interview. Are you good enough or are you going to let that person tell you whether or not you're good enough? But like, how do I know if I'm good enough? That's where we start working.

This is some crazy stuff, man. We're going to loop it all in, trust me. So you said you know you're capable, but you can't do it. Right? You said there's a lot of judgment. I see what you're doing. You're looking at the notes. I was right over there.

Yeah. So, and then the whole two kinds of people thing, the people who get it done and the people who don't, right? Again, that's results based. Right? So when you're looking at yourself, because these things don't exist yet, they can one day. We're going to talk about yet another coaching session. But because they don't exist yet,

you're judging yourself as not good enough before you even get there. Wait, I'm kind of, so, so if, are you kind of saying, but like, isn't whether you're good enough, isn't that what determines whether you get there? No, you're good enough whether you get there or not. That's not. You're enough right now, here today. How can you say that? You just met me.

Sure. But I already know that you're good enough. But you don't know anything about me. Do I need to know more? Well, I mean, like, don't you? Like, I'm so confused. Like, what do you mean I'm good enough? So this is kind of the issue with judgment,

is that a lot of times we use it as results-based. The reason why it's easy for me to say you're good enough today is because I'm not going to use any judgment when I make that decision. But isn't that what good enough means? Isn't it good enough judgment? Good enough is judgment when you kind of let the results impact whether or not you feel good enough. So you're saying it's like about how I feel about myself?

Yep. Just like the growth versus fixed mindset. I'm confused. So are you saying that whether I'm good enough doesn't have to do with whether I get the job or not? Correct. Okay, let's pause for a second. Fantastic job, sidekick. How did it feel for you?

Good. Still a little nervous, but I'm okay. So a couple of things I just want to point out. So I've never, I don't, I don't know if I, have I ever seen you coach before? Not since training. Okay. So first of all, I really want to just like I didn't, I mean, I know you're good, right? So we get feedback.

I hear about some of the clients that you work with in case review and things like that. So I know how thoughtful you are. I also understand you run office hours or case review or something. at times, right? I did it for one of the new cohorts. I run the social sandbox thing in the main Discord. Okay. So you've stepped into a teaching role in a couple of places, which we totally, you know, understand. I mean, I know I get, because we have, we know you're good. But what I really want to say is I really appreciate, and just for people who are watching, how much you actually teach. So a couple of things for people to understand, not every coach teaches as much as Sidekick does.

and that's actually okay. So part of what we really appreciate is that each coach has particular strengths and weaknesses. But I think that you do a really good job of introducing some of these concepts. And I don't know that as the client, I fully understood what you were saying because the concepts are just so foreign to the way that I've been thinking my entire life, right? Sure. So some of the things, you did a really good job of I felt myself. breaking apart in terms of like my beliefs about the world. I didn't find myself believing what you were saying yet.

It was more confusing than anything else. But I think actually what you did very fast, which is actually very, very good, is that a lot of times what holds people back and hopefully people who are understanding, I know you understand this, so I'm sort of more saying this to chat and stuff, is that it's our conceptions of ourselves, right?

It's the idea that when I go into the job interview, I'm trying to prove something instead of believing, hey, like, I actually bring something to the table. I bring real value to this company. I can help out a lot. And if they don't want to see that, or if it's not what they're looking for, that has nothing to do with my intrinsic value. Right. If I'm sitting there in the job interview, there's something that they've already seen that makes them want to call me in for the interview. So you did a really good job of sort of attacking this idea of results equals being valuable.

And the interesting thing about the motivation, and you didn't get there. I mean, you got really, really fast, really far, and I know you know this. I probably went a little too quick with some of those things, because I'm trying to cover it a lot faster than I wouldn't normally. Yeah, yeah. So I think that was a bit fast, but I think it's great. And I think your strength as a teacher really kind of shines through. But I think the key thing that I really want to commend you is about 20 or 30 minutes. I came into this interview expecting being skeptical myself.

I came into this interview thinking that this wouldn't help me. I'm going to try it because I'm desperate, but deep in my heart, I was like resist. Like I didn't, you know, I wasn't like, okay, let's go. Like it was all like a veneer. And so the one thing that you really did very, very good, and I think very quickly, is confuse the hell out of me. And it's when. My favorite thing to do. Yeah.

So it's like, you know, if we want to rebuild the right kind of mindset, the first thing that we have to do is pull apart all the puzzle pieces because then we can start the process of like putting them back together in a healthier way. And so the, you know, a couple things I want to say, you did a good job of helping me understand that, hold on a second, maybe some of my assumptions are not as held in stone as I thought. You did a good job of moving me from kind of pre-contemplative to contemplative. So I came in knowing all the answers. But knowing all the answers led me to the wrong conclusion. So the first thing that you've got to do in coaching, which once again, you did a really good job of, is helping people introducing doubt into their worldview.

Because if I'm like a doomer or like, I think that nothing's ever going to work for me, like you can't let people continue thinking that way. And the way that you do that is by actually introducing doubt, introducing new concepts, getting people to do it. I think you did a really good job of actually, first of all, you know, you take good notes, you use your notes really well. you did a really good job of when you were explaining certain things, tossing in personal experiences that kind of emotionally hit home. So you talked about parents, you talked about pressure, you offered empathy, which is not something that I get at all. And that too is very perplexing. It's like, what do you mean it's not my fault? Like what on earth? Like the whole world is telling me I'm at fault.

I wake up every single day and I tell myself it's not my fault. The concept that actually my position in life has more to do than my actions. And I know where you're going to go with this because over time, ultimately what you want to do is help people understand there is a contribution that you make. But there are things that you don't control as well. And the problem is when clients start to assume responsibility for the whole world that they can't change,

that that's when they really start to feel devastated. So a fantastic job. Any thoughts? Your end, was I hard on you? I was afraid. Oh, no. I think it was good. If anything, I think there was like, maybe this is just me.

I felt like there were almost too many directions for me to go in as a coach. Like I have like a lot of things that I was like, okay, I know like in a few sessions we're going to get into this. And then a few sessions we're going to get into control. And then we're going to talk about like should statements and like all these other things. Like I can see like down the line. that's where I would go with this client. Yeah, so can you explain to us what were the directions you saw and what you think the value in some of those directions? Or just toss out a couple.

Yeah. So should statements is a big one. I talk to a lot of people about this. I'm not going to go into the whole whole spiel I would do in coaching, but the basics behind should statements is they're actually just not true. There are ways we feel about something. But like when we say like, oh, people like should do this thing or they, I should have done that thing. That's not a fact about the world, but we treat it like it is. and then when we see the real world and that thing is not true,

then it's really, really hard for us to cope with that. I should have a job and I don't. And then that brings up tons of shame and other negative emotions and all that kind of stuff. So really helping clients identify should statements and start to tweak them. So I call it changing it to a statement of fact. So instead of I should have a job, say, like, I want to have a job and I don't and that's hard. Because that's actually true, right? You don't have a job, and it is hard.

But the I should have a job part isn't true. That's like societal pressure, internal pressure, wherever it might come from for that person. The other thing that I noted was control and understanding like this is like we kind of touched on a little bit when we were talking about results-based ideas. And in fact, we don't control results of basically anything. We control our actions. So you can't control what happens. You can control what you do about it. And so in this case, with this client, we would have gone into, like, with goal setting,

it's not get a job by X date. It's apply for this many jobs this week. Because that's something you can control. That's an action. And Steve, do you find, I know this is going to, like, please be honest, do you find that that works with people? Yes. Tell me a little bit about that.

I feel like there is so much that we do as a society that. that puts these pressures, these expectations on people, and then nobody ever tells them that it's actually okay, it's fine. It doesn't matter if what you want to do is like you want to do art and you're just going to work at McDonald's and then have a studio somewhere and do art. That's fine. It doesn't matter what all these things come from,

but nobody's ever been told that. Nobody's ever been told that that's acceptable. And so they put all this pressure on themselves either internally or it was put on them by their parents or other things in life. And again, all of those things usually come from results-based ideas. So, Steve, if I can, you know, and file means protect your client's privacy. So I'm going to ask you for a question. If you feel like you can answer it, try to make it a little bit chimerical.

Have we talked about this before? Not sure what the question is, but I'll try. Yeah, basically, I'm kind of curious, like, what have you actually seen your clients accomplish in terms of, I mean, do people have, you know, are they working at McDonald's and doing studios? and you're welcome to change a couple of the details to protect privacy. That's what I mean like I'm going to call. So I've seen clients who thought they would never move out from their parents' house move out. I've seen clients who, like, thought they couldn't graduate and, like, get their stuff to grab their and graduate. Or also, I think, to me, some of the more, like, moving ones are the ones who realize, like, I don't even want to graduate.

Like, college was never a thing I wanted to do in the first place. I'm actually cool just like going and having a job and like live in my life. And that's personally the things that I find most like inspiring, I guess, is when we can ask those questions and people realize like, this isn't something I want to do. Why am I even doing it? I'm doing it because I was forced to. I'm doing it because my parents told me I had to or whatever other thing in life. And so, yeah, those are kind of the most, the most ones that stick out in my brain. I would say there's also, I've had clients who had more severe emotional stuff and just telling them that that stuff's real and it's okay to pursue therapy for it.

Because so many people in life think like, oh, I've been through this, but other people have been through worse things. Right. And just being that person who tells them, no, that's real. Like, and it's okay for you to go to therapy. Like, wow. is really impactful for people. Cool, man. I'm so honored to have you doing this work

and helping our community and stuff like that. I'm just thrilled to have the opportunity, man. I love it here. Yeah, and we love having you.