HealthyGamerGG - Dr. K Chats with @aliabdaal

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

In this episode, Dr. K interviews Ali Abdaal, a fellow doctor turned content creator, about the struggles and process of writing a book, and touches on the dissolution of ego and his relationship with imposter syndrome. Check out more mental health resources here! https://bit.ly/3xsk6fE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome, Ali. Thanks so much for having me. This is exciting. It's kind of weird because I'm watching the live stream on here and I'm talking to you on here. But I guess there's a little bit of a delay. I don't really do this streaming stuff very often, but very, very inspired by the set. So I would not watch the live stream. I try not to watch it.

Like sometimes we can interact with chat and stuff, but it's going to be weird if you're seeing a version of me and then a delayed version of me. And we just try to have a conversation. Perfect. But do you want to just start by telling you? telling us, I'm sure a lot of people know who you are, but you want to just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yeah, absolutely. This almost feels like a trick question given the conversations we've had in the past. But how I might introduce myself is that I'm a doctor turned entrepreneur.

Okay. So I practiced medicine here in the UK for two years. And then, you know, accidentally became a full-time YouTuber thanks to the pandemic. And I've been making videos here on YouTube for on YouTube for the last seven years. mostly themed around helping students get better at their exams and stuff, and now it's become about productivity. So now I make videos about productivity. I've got a team, got a bit of a business around it, and I recently wrote a book called Feel Good Productivity. By the way, I've started reading yours, How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. I'm not a parent yet, but it's weirdly helpful,

just in general, to understand addiction and all this sort of stuff. And I'm like, oh, there's so many ideas for things that I can weave into my own content. Anyway, that's me. Dr. Turned Entrepreneur, are now author and YouTube about productivity. Yeah, so I've heard like amazing things about your book. Like people say it's very good. I know it's got like stellar, stellar reviews on like book review websites. Yeah, it's been going right. What's what's in the book?

What's in the book? Basically, it's a practical guide on how to be productive in a way that feels good. It's like the whole secret, secret to productivity, if there is one, is that if you find a way to enjoy your work, God forbid. then everything else takes care of itself. You become more productive, you become more creative, you become less stressed, and you have more energy to give to the other important areas of your life. And so the book is sort of like a practical guide on how to actually do that.

How do you take something that is boring and how do you make it fun using the principle, using evidence-based scientific back principles, and then you'll find that you'll just be able to be more productive, beat procrastination, and hopefully never burn out. That's the theory anyway. Yeah, so that's because, you know, we'll talk in our community. there was a concept that resonated a lot with people, which is like this concept of toxic fuel. So if you look at like emotions, so we experience negative emotions, these are evolutionary features. So even things like shame and fear are actually very powerful motivators.

And oftentimes what will happen is people will like rely on these motivators to achieve things, right? So I have to like, I feel ashamed of myself. So I'm going to work extra hard and try to win everybody's approval and all this good stuff and then like you end up in this cycle where you have a choice between feeling good or being productive and that's what I think is really cool about your book is like you and we try to say this over here too that it doesn't have to be like that and then sometimes though we're we're a little bit short on practical tips of how to implement so I you know I think it's really cool that your book has all that stuff so it's very practical and you're also nocturna so that's cool

So anything in particular you want to talk about today or anything come to mind? Good question. What comes to mind? And I guess so I also just wanted to let people know that Ali and I met maybe about a year ago and we like hung out a fair amount like at a conference. So that's we we sort of know each other a little bit just so people are aware of that. Nice. Yeah. So I think one thing I always like.

like to hear you, because I've seen a couple of your streams, the one with Pokeyameen, the one with Ludwig, a couple of others over the years. It's always interesting hearing the relationship between the creator and their, like, creative output. And you and I have sort of talked about this in the past briefly around sort of as a fairly big creator, the compulsion to post stuff, the sort of need for social status and approval from the audience. Things like, oh, one thing that would be interesting to explore is, you know, my relationship with negative reviews. Because I've really started to feel that more so as the books come out.

There was advice I heard from other authors, which is that you should never look at your own book reviews. Because if they're positive, then like, whatever's. in particular because the negative ones can really affect you. And I haven't really tried to look at negative book reviews, but I'm sure if and when I do, it'll bring up some interesting feelings that might reveal where I'm not truly free, or things like that.

So, yeah, data seeking, approval seeking, where does money fit into this whole equation? How do I think about my identity? I guess it's now no longer doctor. It's now this sort of YouTuber guy who does productivity type stuff. Is that the identity I'm going to have forever? What about if I want to have a family? and stuff, what's going to be my relationship with work as it relates to life, work, life balance.

I'm just throwing a lot of stuff at you. I'm sure you'll, we'll find a way to talk about it. Yeah, no, I mean, I think my first reaction to this is I miss talking to you. Because you're so, you know, I think you're, you're very engaged, you're very curious. You're not, you're willing to look at parts of yourself that may not be ideal. How do you feel about not looking at your negative reviews? How do I feel about it? How do I feel about anything? It's a bit of a hard question to figure out

because I very rarely know how I feel about things. How do I feel about not looking at my negative reviews? I feel like I just sort of took that advice from that someone else. I can't remember who it was, but I think I probably read it online or heard it in a podcast. And just sort of latched onto it in a sense of like, oh, yay, that means I can just focus on doing the work and putting it out there. And in a very stochismy way,

it is completely outside of my control how other people perceive that thing. But I don't know, like, there's like this website that this celebrity gossip forum that also has like mean things about me where I made the mistake of looking at it once or twice over the last few years. And I always found that it sort of brought up lots of feelings that I didn't particularly want to confront and just sort of generally made me feel bad. And so having spoken to a lot of other people who get online criticism, they've all basically said, yeah, just don't look at it. And so I'm like, okay, fair enough. But it's something that would be interesting to explore. What's your take on it? So I think I'm going to answer your question, then I'm going to ask you one, if that's okay.

So I think you have to be super careful about online criticism for a couple of reasons. The first is that people who are critical of you online are rarely fair. So we also have content creators whose content is to be critical of other people, right? So in the worst cases, this is like hate farming, but frequently when you get, you know, when you get an, even someone who has an article, like someone on a newspaper, like they have a vested interest to attract eyes, right? So the way that they tell the story is like very, very shaped. So I think a lot of times, you know, you'll also see things like people will say, like, we invited this person to comment. Like the reason that a lot of people don't comment is because it's a lose-lose situation. I think a lot of people don't really understand.

Like, sometimes it's useful to comment. I'm not saying one way or the other. But I think that, so that's something you just have to know going in, right? This person is usually not interested in giving you a fair shake. And that's okay. So just because they're not giving you a fair shake doesn't mean that they don't. don't have criticism that is worthwhile. Right?

So that's the other thing is that just because they're not fair doesn't mean that they're wrong. So that's something that sometimes people will do. They'll say like, oh, like, this is unfair. This is crazy. But I mean, if people are writing things, I think it's sometimes worthwhile to look at criticism. I think. So that's kind of like the start off of it, right? And I find that when I look at online criticism, and we'll get to this in a second or maybe down the road, but I oftentimes find myself responding in my head, adding context and things like that, like if that kind of makes sense.

Right. And this isn't just us looking at online criticism. This is like even in real life, if you're just not a content creator and someone criticizes you or sends you some super long text, you're going to be thinking about the context that they're ignoring. So I think that's kind of like I think you should be careful with it. It can be useful to look at. I think it's really important to think about what are the goals of the person who is doing the criticism. I think there's also a couple of like really important concepts that we can learn to better tolerate criticism. The first is the removal of the ego.

So when I look at criticism, the more ego I have. the harder it is to handle and the less I learn from it. But even from an egoless state, it's pretty easy to actually tell that this is not a fair shake and then you can actually dismiss it more easily. So you can look at something, right, and you can recognize that this person, you know, this person is injecting their, or they're projecting their view of you into like their criticism. So people will make a lot of assumptions about what you do or what you don't do.

And so like the more that you're able to kind of be egoless, I think the better it is to handle. I think in general, it's really good to look at, I mean, to receive criticism. But I think the other thing to consider, especially as you become a content creator, is that the bigger you grow, you can't make everybody happy. And so the large, and we've seen this ourselves, like, you know, the bigger you grow, the more the more just statistically you're going to get like, you know, let's say one. percent of the people who watch your content are really not going to be happy with you. And the only difference is that if you have, you know, five million subscribers versus one million subscribers versus 100,000 subscribers, the total number of people changes. And the interesting thing about the internet is you really only need a vocal minority. So if you're sitting at like five

million subs and one percent of people don't like you, that's 50,000 people. And 50,000 people who don't like you can generate a lot of negativity like on the internet. So there's also some interesting biases at play. So our brain were biased towards negative information. Even the way that you're talking about things, and now we're going to get to my question. The way that you're talking about things makes me think that you probably have that bias despite the fact that you're really positive and stuff like that. So you use the word latch onto. Like there's a part of you that latched onto this advice. And even that language presumes that you're kind of floating around in the ocean,

like looking for something to grab onto. You know, so it doesn't, that implies some emotion. Like, you were looking for something that is an excuse to not look at this stuff, because maybe you're afraid of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah, hence why I use the word latch onto, because I'm pretty sure that that's. what was going on.

Yeah. So what do you think is going on? I guess that was not really a question. Yeah, what I think is going on? I think putting something like a book out there into the world, throughout the whole process, I felt a lot of imposter syndrome. I felt a lot of, you know, who am I to be writing a book about productivity? And the fact that it was a book with like a legit publisher and it's like in bookstores and it's on Amazon and stuff.

I sort of built up the gravitas of a book with the sort of capital B in my mind, such that criticism about the book feels, I suspect, would feel, feels more bad than criticism about a YouTube video, if only because of the fact that I took three and a half years to write the book and, you know, take under three and a half days to create a YouTube video. And so I poured a lot of my myself, I want to say, a lot of myself, a lot of work into the process of writing the book. And so I worry,

I think I want to sort of ego protect it more so than I would for like a YouTube video or a random blog post or something like that takes a lot less work. Okay, so you're saying that the amount of work that you put in is what makes the book feel different? the amount of work I think it's also the I'd probably say a book has some level of real world prestige

and or credibility compared to YouTube videos for example and so it's almost like I've got the audacity to sort of stick my neck out there and actually put my name to a book which also makes it feel more

heavy than for example a YouTube video or an Instagram post or something like that. Who are you to write a book? That's the question, isn't it? Who am I to write a book? What happens when I ask, sorry. How do you, what happens when I ask that question? Hmm. When you ask that question, there is a part of me that thinks I could make a case for why I am a, I am a good, a reasonable person to write this sort of book.

There's another part of me that's like, yeah, but I, but I, I don't want to make that case because then it sort of comes across as I'm like defending myself or something. And then there's another part of me. Oh, nice. And then there's another part of me that's like, damn, who am I to write a book? And so that's why when you ask the question, I sort of felt a bit like there's like these different. Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of like the dialogue choices in a game.

There's like these different options. It's like, which one do we go with? Yeah, right? So I think really insightful that you notice that even if we say make a case, that language speaks to defensiveness, right? So you notice that. Yeah. Right. And so you can make a case, but you only need to make a case like if there isn't a presumption of like innocence.

You know what I mean? So now let's ask a different question. Who are you to make a YouTube video? I'm a random guy who chooses to make YouTube videos. Right? So like, and so that's not a hard answer. That's not a hard answer, yeah. And I don't feel any defensiveness.

They're like, well, actually, did you know I went to medical school? Fuck you. Right. So that's like so interesting, right? So what's the difference between those two things? Hmm. When people hear that we offer coaching at HG, their first question is like, what on earth even is that? So here's the basic problem.

When you struggle with something in your life, you don't see. the problem from the outside. You see it from the inside. The value of a coach is that they can look at your life from the outside. They can understand what's going on and they can help guide you to improve things like motivation, accomplish short-term goals, and even increase a sense of purpose in life. And over the long term, we also see improvements and feelings of depression and anxiety. And the best part is we've had over 100,000 coaching sessions and we incorporate that feedback to continually improve our program. So if y'all are interested in actually making a change in your life, check out the link in the description below. I don't know. What is the difference between those two things? A book is something

that has more, it feels more legit. Okay. Something about it feels legit compared to a YouTube video. What's more legit about a book? What's more legit about a book? The fact that it is a, okay, what's more legit about a book? If I was self-publishing an e-book, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd feel any defensiveness about that. Interesting, right? So it's not the product. It's not the product. It's traditional publishing and physical book.

Like the act of putting something to paper and then it being in bookstores with a legit with a legit publisher behind it. I think it's like those things that make it feel more legit. Okay. Feel like it. Yeah. What do you mean by legit? No, I mean by legit.

I don't know. Like it has some sense of, I want to say sort of. like real world credibility. Okay. Whereas it's a thing that's not on the internet. Whereas the internet isn't quite like it doesn't feel like it's the real world.

It feels like, oh, anyone can just put stuff out on the internet. And it's like, great, you know, open season, all this sort of stuff. But something about creating a physical object in the real world where people have the option of buying that thing. That feels different to creating a YouTube video where people have the option to watch the thing. What kind of people write books?

people who have useful things to say people who maybe him who are maybe experts people who have some sort of credibility to be able to write the book are you an expert

do you have credibility I mean it says on the book you know the world's most followed productivity expert but I felt kind of weird about that when the publisher suggested that as like a thing because yeah I mean what even is an expert?

I sort of flip-flop around these around this stuff some of the time where there are there are times where I lean into it be like yeah I am a productivity expert like what is an expert someone who's studied and feels like they have useful things to share and the fact that people find my stuff useful

blah blah blah blah blah sure I can lean into the idea of being an expert if I did I don't know a PhD in organizational psychology with an interest in productivity, then maybe I might consider myself more of an expert. Yeah. How do you feel about not practicing medicine anymore?

How do I feel about not practicing medicine anymore? Broadly, very good, because I much prefer my life now than I did when I was practicing medicine. Yeah. NHS is a brutal place, man. Yep. We said broadly good. What about anything that doesn't feel good about it? I mean, I'm just kind of curious if this resonates or not.

Yeah. There's a residual part of me that still sort of feels bad about it. Because there is a residual part of me that thinks that back when I was a doctor working full-time and also doing stuff on the side, that gave me the credibility to then be able to speak about productivity. but now I'm not, I don't have a real job. I am just an entrepreneur where I can basically do whatever I want and stuff. And so me then giving advice about productivity sort of touches on an old insecurity that I had, which is what kept me in medicine for like a year longer than I probably should have been, which was that unless I'm a practicing doctor,

my work has no value or has a lot less value. like if I'm trying to help people be more productive or whatever. Yeah, so that's interesting, right? So you use credibility, you use legit, you talk about. So tell me about that. What made you feel like being credit? Like, you know, like, you're a real job. Ali is a doctor.

So like, like, you know, it feels like a real job. And does that kind of make sense? Is that am I kind of bouncing back what you're telling me about this insecurity? Yeah, it feels like a real job and it feels like a job that is famously demanding and therefore the fact that I can build a business while being a doctor full time

is impressive. But the fact that I can just build a business is like it's not that impressive because loads of people are doing it kind of thing. And so like, you know, what the old insecurity is like what value does my productivity advice have

if I actually have full control over my schedule because not many people do? And like, am I just the guy whose job it is to make videos about productivity and the way that he talks about productivity is all about how he makes videos about productivity more productively and you get this weird

kind of circular loop thing yeah it's not it's not something that remotely keeps me up at night but there is a kernel of that fear still there when you ask that question of like how did it feel to how does it feel to not practice medicine are you impressive

um depends on who's asking but probably for most people who might ask that question. What do you think about you? Oh, I think I'm impressive, yeah. Okay. And are you, how do you, is it okay to be impressive? Yeah.

Okay. Does it make you uncomfortable to be oppressive? Impressive? No, not really. It feels a little uncomfortable to say that out loud because it sounds big-headed. Yeah. But it is what it is. Okay.

I agree. I think you're very impressive. I also think you're a random guy. Great. So I think there's a couple of things going on here. Yeah. Do you want more questions or do you want like hypotheses? Hypotheses would be good at this point, although happy to answer questions.

Yeah. So like I think like the couple of things to keep in mind. The first is that if we listen to you, what we see is that there's an old version of you who had certain trials and tribulations, right? You like, and I don't know if people kind of know your, your background, but you were very successful in medical school. You went to Oxford, right? You worked at the NHS. So you were like at the top of your game. You were objectively very impressive. Yeah, I went to Cambridge rather than Oxford. Okay. Because Cambridge is obviously the better one. There's all this rivalry between the two. My bad. So you were kind of very successful.

and you went to medicine and you kind of felt like you had like medicine was legit. It's credible. It has gravitas. It has physical substance. You're like saving lives. You're doing real work. Yeah. It's not just making shit on the internet.

Yeah. It's not screwing around on a live stream and calling it work. Yeah. Absolutely. Right? And so you have this conception. And you also have this like desire to be something. Right?

Like so if you kind of think about it, when we have. an insecurity about ourselves, one of the worst things that we can do is to do something to fix the insecurity. Oh, interesting. Why is that one the worst thing we can do? A lot of human behavior motivated by the desire to fix an insecurity.

Yeah, absolutely. And it explains why people are successful and unhappy. So if we, like, I know it sounds kind of weird, but like I'll give you a more extreme example. and then we can kind of like move back towards the center. But let's say like someone has body dysmorphia. So I'm insecure about my appearance. So I'm going to get a little bit of surgery.

And then I'm still insecure about my appearance. So I'm going to get a little bit of surgery. Right. So a lot of times when we are, let's say I'm insecure. So that's like an extreme example where there's potentially a clinical pathology. But let's say a more reasonable example. Let's say I'm insecure about my worth as a human. So like I'm a loser.

So I'm going to become a winner. So I'm going to make a lot of money. I'm going to get a fancy job. And then I feel good about myself, right? Because I was a loser who made no money and now I make a ton of money and now I feel really good about myself. But if you really pause and think about it, you haven't really fixed the insecurity you've actually fed it. Because if you lose your job, if you lose the money, you go back to square one. So your sense of self-worth, the insecurity is still there.

It's just been masked by circumstances. Okay? So another simple example. I'm insecure about my body, so I'm going to leave my shirt on when I go to the beach. I haven't solved the insecurity. I've just changed the circumstances to make my insecurity hidden and dormant. And then what happens is, so that's like the first thing, right? So you overachieved and you ended up being good doctored and all this good stuff, right? And then you recognize now, like, you're okay with leaving it, fair enough. And there's some weird, there's some weirdness going on here. But, and I know that doesn't mean much right now. But then I think when we talk about, like, sort of writing a book, like, it's almost like you've crafted a life for yourself that you yourself are happy with.

But there is an older version of you that looks at this guy and was like, this is not who we set out to be. Right? we set out to be credible. And now you gave up the path of credibility. You stopped being a doctor. Now you're trying to do credible things. Faker. Hmm.

Right? So like if you were a doctor working for the NHS, like you could write a book. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right? And then even when you look at some of these things which you know objectively are true and you feel good with in some ways because you're like,

that job sucked. Like sometimes like medicine is like a, wonderful profession in a lot of ways, but sometimes it sucks. Like the act of doing it, which then also, by the way, feeds our ego. Because now I'm sacrificing. Now I'm not taking the easy road, right? There's a ego gratifying sense of like martyrdom. So it makes you legit.

Right? If you really stop and think about it, like what's more impressive working five hours a week and making a million dollars or working 50 hours a week. week and making a million dollars. But if we're not careful, this is the ego, and this is how the ego manifests. It has this idea of who you should be, and that idea is born of a particular insecurity. So that idea is born of, I don't believe that I am this thing. And so this manifests in a couple of different ways when you look at world's number one

productivity expert or whatever, right? Like you acknowledge that on an analytics perspective or whatever, like, that's true. It's still kind of cringe because it's sort of egotistical, but, but, you know, publishers need to sell books. Yeah, sure. Right. So you're kind of like, okay. But like, I think it's like this thing. And that's also why you kind of latch on to it because I think that that insecurity is still there.

And so now what happens is like you're afraid that you're not credible. And then now if you go read something on the internet and what if this is, say, who the fuck is this guy to be writing this book? Like, oh, it's going to be like a sniper. Yeah, exactly. Oh, one of these happened the other day. I gave a talk at Google, and they put it up on their talks at Google YouTube channel that has like whatever, 5 million subscribers or something.

And I remember seeing the notification pop up. And I clicked on the video, and the very first comment was something to the effect of, you know, I remember back in the day when talks at Google would bring in academics and experts. now all they do is bring in celebrities and influencers. God, this channel has gone to the dogs or something to that effect. And I was like, oh, damn, this guy's right. I have no credibility because that was my fear about doing this talk at Google and especially the fact that it was going to be published online.

I was like, you know, freaking Nobel Prize winners have done talks at Google. And now this frigging YouTuber guy is also sharing the proverbial stage with those legit people. And so that kind of was something that was like, oh, hello, there's something there. Yeah, right? So it's like, it's interesting because if we look at the availability, so we can make predictions about what kinds of comments will be hurtful for you. And then when we share that prediction, you're like, yes. Right. So now it's like we have a hypothesis and we have data. Now, this is important to understand. Just because it's hurtful doesn't mean it's true and we're going to talk a little bit about how to overcome that. Right. So so and this kind of goes back to this idea that like you've developed credibility, not. in here, you've developed credibility by giving yourself trappings. Like, I'm a doctor working in the NHS. And the moment that you lose that, the fear of the credibility, the gravitas, the legitimacy. And then the really confusing thing is that you actually don't need it, right?

Because you're comfortable being a random guy making videos on the internet. Like, that's okay. Like, you're happy with that. Like, that's fun. Yeah. Right. And I think you can also, I imagine, or I guess we can find out, like, Do you think your videos are helpful to people?

Yeah. Do you think your book is helpful to people? Yes. Is there a difference between the two? Not really. Yeah, the videos are helpful to some people. The book's helpful to some people. Right?

So then the question kind of becomes, like, I don't know if this kind of makes sense, but now we see that this is not, you're not one thing. These are states. So there are times where, like, when I, you know, after you watch that, after you read that comment of like, Google used to invite real people, you know? Yeah. Now they just invite celebrities.

If I were to ask you, like, you know, does your book help people? Like, do you think your answer would be different? No. It's still, it's still, it's people, yeah. Okay, that's good. So, so I think that this is, like, important to understand that who, like, you know, the, ego vulnerability or the insecurity of the lack of legitimacy is still there. Mm.

Yeah. And it's interesting because how did you, how did you not, how do you not, how do you not feel illegitimate making videos on the internet? Like, do you have a sense of, like, how you feel different? Because you're like, I'm just a random guy. So, like, why is that okay? Does that kind of make sense? Like, you don't say you're a someone.

Yeah. You don't say you're a no one. You actually say, like, I'm a random guy. Yeah, I'm just a dude making videos on the internet. The reason that feels totally fine to say, and I feel very comfortable in that identity of random dude making videos on the internet, is, because anyone can make videos on the internet. And if they are useful and people watch them,

then that person gets views on their videos and can make a career out of it. If they're not useful and people don't watch them, then the opposite is true. So in my case, yeah, I'm a random guy making videos on the internet. People seem to find them helpful. People seem to keep watching seven years down the line. So it's like, cool.

I'll keep being this random guy making videos on the internet as long as it's fun and helpful and at least profitable. And a random guy can't write a book. Honestly, a random guy can write a book as well. Yeah, I'm just a random dude who wrote a book. And people can buy it if they want. And of the people that buy it, if they read it, they might get some value out of it.

I hope they get some value out of it. Yeah, thinking of myself as a random dude who wrote a book and wants to write more feels very, very comfortable. Thinking of myself as like, oh, this doctor turned productivity expert who has written a book feels more. more uncomfortable. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Just random dude. Like, that's what you are. Yeah. Like, you happen to be maybe a doctor and a productivity. But honestly, like, you're just a dude. Yeah.

I'm a dude who just decided to. You piss and shit just like the rest of us, man. Yeah, exactly. And I think this is the crazy thing, right? So this is like where the way that we view ourselves. And I think this is like what I, I see is a lot of conditioning here, that you've actually discovered who you are. And we'll get to identity and things like that.

But like, you know, you, you kind of discovered who you are. Who are you, by the way? I am me, a random dude on the internet. Right. Right. So, like, and it's cool because if you're a random dude on the internet, there's like, what are the, what are the expectations? No, yeah, none.

There's no expectations. Right? So, you know, you don't have to live up to some. hypothetical idea of credibility. You get to be you, right? And then if you really look at it, like a lot of the challenges that people face are when they construct identities for themselves

or even they, yeah, they construct identities for themselves or they construct identities to strive to. Yep. And this is the problem with like the whole insecurity thing in body dysmorphia. When you strive to be successful, that can't exist unless you have a view of yourself that is unsuccessful. Right?

So like in order to go there, I have to start here. And then... And so the weird thing, though, is that we assume that the mechanism of action of the change in self is the accomplishment of a goal. So we think, like, I'm a loser. Once I win, then I will be a winner. Sure. And then we think once I'm a winner, I will no longer feel like a loser.

But if you really look at it, I think, I don't know if there's like straight studies about this. There have to be. This is more of a clinical perspective. But if you really look at dissolution of the identity of loser, it doesn't come from winning. Oh, what does it come from? So actually, winning can reinforce the identity of a loser. It can lead to imposter syndrome. So when you have people who are insecure, who accomplish things, they don't develop

confidence. They, the insecurity becomes dormant or hidden and then they're afraid that people are going to find out that I don't, I'm not actually legit. Oh my God, I'm giving a talk at Google and like, what if I open my mouth and, and, you know, gamer slurs come out and then they're going to realize that it's all fake. And then this one guy noticed, he noticed he saw, he was like, oh my God, this person isn't an academic. Oh my God.

So it's just there. Yeah. So the interesting thing is if you look at. what really like, let's say like someone who goes to the, you know, I have patients who've started to work out. And when they go to the gym, it's not getting into shape that actually gives them confidence. It is going into the gym and recognizing that it's okay to be out of shape. Right.

So it's like the turning moment. So I had one patient who went to the gym and didn't know how to use certain equipment. And so someone who was basically looked like a bodybuilder, like walked over to them one day. and was like, hey, I'm going to do a set. Can you spot me? And so they asked this person who was obese for help, and then they, like, spotted them, and I don't think they needed much help.

And then they were like, hey, do you want to do a set? You know, and he's like, I don't know how to do this. And he's like, okay, like, do you want to learn? And then, like, there was like a very, like, and in that moment, like, that's what changed. It wasn't, I've gotten, it wasn't like I've become, I've gotten into shape. it's like it's okay to be this way and I'm progressing.

So this is also like something important to understand. When we accomplish a goal, we're like the goal is over there and we're over here. But really being okay with who you are, you're a random guy. Like what are you going to do in the next year? I'm sure you have some plans, but you're not going to stop. You're going to still be a random guy. You may have maybe a million more YouTube subscribers or maybe you write a second book, but you're still going to be a random guy.

The eunist doesn't change. Does that see, does that make sense? Yeah. And even if we recalibrate the book, you're just a random guy who wrote a book. You happen to have a following. So you convince these publishers to publish a book that was written by a random guy. Right? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. You tricked them. Fair enough. Fair enough. Right? And so the more you kind of, and this is where we get to this idea of acceptance, but acceptance is very confusing for a lot of people because they're like, wait, I don't want to be this, but that's the whole point, is like, you have to accept.

And then things can get better. And then there's also, like, research that shows that confidence doesn't come from success. It comes from surviving failure. So, and even in those moments when you're working out, it's like going there and accepting that you're not in shape is what leads to confidence. Does that make sense? Questions? No, that makes sense.

Yeah, I just wrote down on my little thing because, you know, I like to write things down. I'm a random dude on the internet. this is going to be my, I feel like this is almost, this is almost better than a positive affirmation. A positive affirmation on the surface would be, I'm, I'm impressive, I'm a legend, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually, me just reading this, I'm a random dude on the internet. Like, just sort of really feels like it takes the pressure off.

It's like on my YouTube video, yeah, I'm a random dude on the internet. Cool. Someone asked me a question. I'm going to make a video about it and I hit publish on YouTube. I'm a random dude on the internet. I'm going to write a book. Cool.

I'm a random dude on the internet. I'm going to release an online product because why not. I'm going to build an app because why not. I'm a random dude on the internet. It feels so empowering to be just a random dude on the internet. So what does it free you from? Expectation, pressure, having to live up to a particular kind of identity.

And it gives me permission to just enjoy the journey and try and be as helpful as I can be. Yeah, right? So I think that's like, that's a beautiful reframe. And I'm with you. Like, I don't like positive. I mean, I think there are certain cases where positive affirmations are good,

but I oftentimes find that positive affirmations are just reinforcing our own, like, delusional beliefs about ourself. They're like, I'm going to try to convince myself by repeating this to my conscious mind and that doesn't work because I don't know if you kind of if you go back and you watch this I think even people who are watching will see when you change right so like we talked a little bit about like when we talk about the insecurity we can see the change in your and it's lovely how emotive you are like we can see like you know you kind of clam up and it it hurts a little bit and then like the liberation of like oh like I'm just I'm just a dude who wrote a book

And it so happens that in the circumstance of the world, like, this is what people are looking for now, which is fine, right? It's not that I am something or I am, you know, all those ideas, expectations, that's not really who you are. And this is where we kind of like think a little bit about ego, which is like ego is a construction. It's an abstraction, right? It's not a thing. It's like an identity. A winner or a loser, you can't biopsy a winner. You can't biopsy a loser.

You can't x-ray it. You're not going to find success on an x-ray or even in your brain. Right? These are all conceptions. And so freeing ourselves from our conception allows us to, I'm sure this is in some vein and feel good productivity. It's got to be. You know, when you free yourself of your conception allows you to, hey, I'm going to make an app because why not? And does it need to be successful, elite?

Are you going to try to make it successful? Yeah, sure. Right. Right? And I think like sure is such a great word. Like, why not? Why not? I'm going to do something to pass the time.

Yeah. And, you know, even for me, like, I use sure a lot and it's sometimes confusing for people. Because people will ask me, like, are you a doctor? And I'm like, sure. It's like, how do you define it? Like, do I practice medicine for a few hours a week? Sure. But am I a doctor?

I don't know. I have a medical degree. I know some stuff about medicine. Sure. Why not? Yeah. Okay, I have a question on this. Yeah. How would I, how should I, well,

with all the caveats of the word should decide, how should I think of my Instagram bio, for example? Like, my internal identity can be, I'm a random dude on the internet. But I sort of feel like, you know, the front page of my website or the freaking Instagram buyer or whatever. It's like, hey, I'm Ali, I'm a doctor, to an entrepreneur, a YouTuber, podcast.

author of the New York Times bestselling book, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of those things. Do you have, like, I guess something that comes to mind. I was recently reading, Spiritual Enlightenment by Jed McKenna. I don't know if you've read that. It's really good. I think you'd enjoy it. But he's sort of like, once you become enlightened, you wear your ego as if it's just like a set of clothes. You walk back into it because it's helpful in some ways to navigate the world.

Yeah. But you keep in mind that it's, no. It's just a set of clothes that I could walk out of whenever I want. And so I was sort of this set of clothes metaphor came to mind when it came to, I'm Ali Abdel, the doctor turned entrepreneur, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that BS. It's just a change of clothes. It's just the thing that makes sense to have on an Instagram bio. Yeah.

So I would agree with that. So let's like understand what the ego is and like even to a certain degree. Like there's there's actually, I recently put together a paradigm for like the neuroscience of enlightenment. So there are actually like a couple of discrete. So we have some really interesting studies from like brain scans and neuronal activity and even changes and things like trauma and stuff like that to where I think we've sort of figured out actually like neuroscientifically. I mean, I don't know. We figured out.

I think if you understand the concept and you understand the neuroscience, you can try to hypothesize how to fit these two things together. And I think this is a really good example. So here's the first thing. If you want to be free of all the stuff, we can, that's what we're going to talk about. So how? And in the how, I think we'll understand what the deal is. So the first thing to understand is like, if you close your eyes right now, close your eyes, what do you feel?

Feel the desk in front of me. I feel my feet on the carpet. Okay. Right. So this is your moment of existence. Like you have some thoughts. Maybe you notice the thoughts. You have some physical sensations.

Right? So like if all of. of your experience of life was this moment, would you have a chronological age? No. Like, is it Monday or Tuesday today? Right? So, like, so now open your eyes for a second. So here's the crazy thing is that if you really pay attention to your life, all your life is

is those moments strung together. In any particular moment in life, you do not have an identity. have an experience of yourself. The identity is an abstraction that gets stitched together. Yep. Okay, which is why the identity can change. Like, what you experience can change, but the fact that you experience cannot change. So if we look at an Instagram bio, it's a tool.

What's the purpose of an Instagram bio? It is to offer people on Instagram a perception of who you are. Should you inflate it to a reasonable, to the appropriate amount? Absolutely. Because it's an Instagram bio. Instagram bios were not the major tool that yogis in the Himalayas used to attain enlightenment. That's not what they used to discover themselves. It's an Instagram bio is used to sell shit.

Yeah, pretty much. Right? And so this is like, it's a trapping that you wear and you should craft it. You should play the game that the game is played. That's what I think. So I think that you should be, and some people will say like, oh, like the Instagram bio is like egotistical so you shouldn't do it. No, that's actually egotistical. Because now, who am I?

I am above this Instagram bio, these nobs who make instantagram bios. I am better than that. I'm superior. I'm more egoless than all of these idiots who are so. vapid and require Instagram bios. Look at those losers. I'm better than that.

That's ego. Two kinds of ego in the world. Regular ego and the ego of having no ego. Okay? So the Instagram bio is just a trapping. Now the basic problem that we, the basic problem everyone gets into is that we confuse our experience of ourselves

with like who we are. So we attach our value to a particular trapping. We connect these two. But who you are to the outside world is not who you are to yourself. And as long as these things are disconnected, you can do whatever you, you know. I mean, so I agree with this person. There's even studies on things like psychedelics and the default mode network and stuff like that, where we know that deactivation of all.

the part of our brain that has a sense of our identity correlates with mental health improvement. So that's fun. If you look at someone who's depressed, they are very, their default mode network, which is where we get our sense of our identity is hyperactive. They're thinking about me. I'm a loser. I'm this. I'm this. This person would be better off without me.

The world would be better off without me. They're always thinking negatively about themselves. So you literally, the fastest treatment for depression is ketish. which is a dissociative agent. We literally unplug them from their sense of self, and then the depression improves rapidly. So meditation also decreases the activity of the default mode network. When you meditate for a long time, it becomes more like inactive.

Psychedelics can sometimes lead to these things called ego death, or you can have transcendental experiences in meditation where you have ego death. Ego death is very liberating because you realize you're not actually any of that shit. that you think you are. You're just you. You're a random guy. Yeah. Right. I too am just a random guy. And everyone will say, and we'll use the trappings of our life because the trappings of our life are necessary to communicate to other people. You want to write a book. So you can put number one product. Sure, you can put it on there. Right. Will it sell more books? Yeah. We're trying to sell books. Why are we trying to sell books? Are you trying to make money? That's fine if that's what you want. But if you're trying to help people, I think it's fine. Right. So there's a big difference between acknowledging that, the external world uses a particular kind of communication, has a value system that is important to them, you're going to play that game. Like, I shave today. I didn't want to shave today, but it looks better when I shave. So I'm going to play that game. Yeah. I have a meeting next week. I'm going to wear a suit. I don't care to wear suits, but I'm going to wear a suit. I'm going to do the things that the world demands me to do because, like, you know, there's me on the inside, and then there's all the traffic

that I have to have on the outside. And when you adopt it that way, the other cool thing is that the attacks that people have will stop working on you. The only reason that it hurts when someone says they used to invite real academics is because you don't think you're a real academic. Right?

Yeah, I'm running the internet. Yeah. And I mean, there's all kinds of problems with academia. More than 50% of studies can't be reproduced. Right? And academics have their own set of biases and things like that. So it's not like in,

and oftentimes the real tragedy is sometimes academics are not that, you know, there's a difference between a successful entrepreneur and a professor of entrepreneurship. Sometimes the two can be one and the same, but sometimes they're not. So that's what I would kind of say. I think it's a good,

I think it's just, you know, and if any time you stop and you really think about, am I this or am I that, or if you just stop and notice your moment to moment experience, you'll realize that that's entirely absurd. nice. I'm a random going on the internet. Yep, that's all you are.

That's great. That's liberating. It really is. Great. Good session. Did you want to talk about, because you mentioned something about, okay, hold on a second.

So you talked about social status, compulsion. Like, do you think we've touched on that? Yeah. Yeah, I think we've touched on it. The thing I want to talk about, So I'm thinking of settling down and having a family and stuff in the somewhat near future. And there is this blog post that you might have seen that Tim Ferriss wrote called 11 reasons not to get famous.

And in it he sort of basically breaks down how fame, even the sort of fairly niche sort of fame that someone like Tim Ferriss has, that sort of fame comes with all sorts of downsides, security risks and threats to friends and family and all of this sort of stuff. And I was having a conversation with a friend around like, you know, got like five and a half million subscribers on YouTube. If I, you know, when I think about what I want to do with my life, it's, hey, I'm around, I'm going on the internet and I want to share stuff and I want to keep sharing stuff because it's nice to make videos about things and write books every now and then. But that will probably mean that the subscriber account goes up, hopefully means the

subscriber account goes up, which will increase my levels of fame. And right now I feel like I've got a good level of fame in that, you know, I might get recognized once or twice on the streets when I'm walking around London. It's kind of cute. It's nice. But it's not so much fame that. So like some people you and I know who would have, for example, threats to their safety and random dudes showing up to their houses or whatever. And so there's part of me that's one.

It's like I want to continue doing this career that I'm doing. I know that it's probably going to get to a point where just one percent of any larger number is like a large number of people who might be off their meds or might have some issues. So there's real risks to my life and my future family's life. and yet I keep wanting to do this career thing. And so a question that I haven't yet found the answer to when thinking about this myself is, to what extent do I just want to do this stuff for the sake of acquiring more and more and more social status

and like the follower accounts to go up? And you know, I've made enough money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I wouldn't say no to more of it because it's just playing the game of entrepreneurship. But this thing around social status and wanting the followers to sort of a side effect of doing the work that you and I do is that the follower account goes up.

therefore we become more famous. Therefore, there are potential security risks to our families. What's up with that? So that's interesting. So it sounds like you have not encountered safety risks at your level. I had a small stalker a few years ago. Okay. Beyond that, not really.

So do you want social status? Sure. Is it a desire of yours that you wish to be fulfilled? Is it something you strive for? Not directly. Indirectly, perhaps, because I continue to make videos on the internet. Yeah, so I would also be, I'm sometimes a little bit different from some of my colleagues who are psychiatrists and mental health professionals because I sometimes attribute, like, I don't think that there has to be a subconscious motivation for everything. So I think that the language we use basically clues us into what it is.

But I really get the sense from you that you're a guy on the internet. And the reason that your subscriber account grows is because the more you tap into not trying to make your subscriber count grow and not trying to be famous and really get excited about a particular idea and that you try to help people. You know, I just did an interview with Sap Knapp a couple of days ago. And he was kind of talking about how authenticity is really important for the content that he makes. If him and his friends are very excited about it, then it goes. really well. I find the same thing. I think you're going to find the same thing. I think that some people will crave more numbers. I don't get the sense that a random guy in the internet doesn't make much difference. But there's also this kind of idea that like in a dispassionate way you can

want to grow and do more and continue to do more and help more people and like that's fine. I think that's okay. So I think there are a couple of weird things when it comes to family. The first is that I mean the way that I resolve this is somewhat different, I think. So I, and we can talk about that if you want, but like, I think, I think it's okay. So I think that sometimes people are worried about the hypothetical consequences of their actions, but that too is based on like a hypothetical. It's not coming from a random guy, right? So it's something you have to be careful about. So you need to be careful about safety and stuff like that if you have kids. And something you need to be mindful of.

But I don't think that you need to choose one or the other. And if you do, I mean, maybe famous last words on my part. But like, I have a couple of kids and I think we're fine. Like, we recently discovered that their friends discovered their friends, like, they have friends that they know kids that watch like my YouTube videos, which is weird. Right? And for them, it was normal. Like, so they would, when they log on to YouTube, they see Daddy's face. So they didn't realize that that was strange.

So now we've had some conversations about that and things like that. But then the other really interesting thing is that, I mean, I sort of resolve it from like a karmic perspective. So I think this is where you have to figure out your own spiritual compass. And the importance of this, if we look at studies on post-traumatic growth, what we find is that you need some kind of compass to navigate life. It's not that one compass is right and you can believe in Jesus or you can be a yogi. Like it doesn't, it's not that one is better than the other. It's just that human beings require some metaphysical understanding in order to organize and make decisions in their life. And that can include atheism and biological reductionism.

That's totally fine. It's just like, this is how the world works. There is nothing greater. That in and of itself is a metaphysical view. Sure. So you just need some way to like guide yourself in life. Like do you want to have kids? Do you want to have kids?

Yeah. So then I think it's just about how not like and you may be exposing them to some danger. I don't know. Right. So there's an objective concern there. But I think there's also like the way that I kind of resolve it is recognizing that their souls chose to be incarnated into their bodies. And they get to pick who dad and mom. are. So this is a karmic debt and I kind of see that even in my relationship with them where like I,

I see many content creators like inside them. And so the bigger challenges like do we suppress that, do we encourage that? What do we do with that? Like that's a whole different thing. But even if you look at like, you know, there's like lineages and you have your parents, I'm a doctor, my parents were doctors, there's something there that you give your kids. And so they're not making content or anything, but, but it's just interesting. But, but I, I don't, I don't think that, I think as long as you feel good about like the compass that you're using, once again, it's not a goal. There's no, there's not like this thing to be achieved.

It's like, does this feel right in this moment? Are we taking all the reasonable precautions? And there's no doubt in my mind that if things tip into the wrong way, you'll quit like that. Right. So, so if you remove ego from the equation, then you can go from five million or six. $6 million or $8 million to zero in a heartbeat. Because it doesn't mean anything to you. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and that's where like, removing that, that freedom that you feel is not going to change just because you have kids. I don't know if this makes sense. But the freedom comes from your attitude, not your circumstances. Right? Because the book is the book. If it's a wannabe expert writing it, then you're stuck.

if it's a random guy writing it, then you're free. Right? So you're just a random guy who chose to have kids who happens to have this profession. You need to be a little bit careful, you know, with where you go and what you advertise and things like that. But like, it's just going to be part of your life and it feels wrong to you at some point. As long as you're centered, then you'll act. Like if I really thought it was a problem for my kids, I would quit tomorrow. Yeah.

And just. And that's part of the reason that I work pretty. hard is because I recognize that all manner of things could happen that would make me quit tomorrow, including I could die. Hmm. Right? So you could die. So you make as much as you can.

You try to do as much as you can while you can. Mm. And then if you have to stop, you have to stop. And I think that's how everyone should live for their life. Like everyone's like, oh, like, should I do this or should I do this or should I do this? Like get a good compass, get a good playbook. And don't worry so much about where you end up. Focus on like what you're, you know, what's your strategy.

And then the world will give you supportive information or unsupportive information and that you have to incorporate. Nice. Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, because I don't, around the social status thing, I don't really feel any sort of unhealthy attachment to the social status part of it. But there was part of me that was like, am I just bullshitting myself about that? I don't think I am. I think I'm just, yeah. I'm doing it on the internet.

It makes videos. and as long as people continue to find them useful, great. If not, that's also fine, that sort of thing. Yeah, and I find that the more that I lean into that too, like, that works really well. And I think that's not just on the internet. I think this is true of everything. So, like, even when I was trying to decide to become a psychiatrist, I was going to do oncology originally. And then when I wanted to do psychiatry, I had to deal with ego.

Because I was like, that's not a real doctor. Oh, right. And then I was like, okay, that's okay. I didn't have to convince myself that that was a real doctor. I decided if I'm not a real doctor, I'm not a real doctor. That's okay. Yeah. Nice.

Okay, so we've established that I'm a random dude on the internet, which frees me from the burden of expectations and trying to live up to some sort of identity. But really that identity is an abstraction. It's a bit of an illusion made up of the trappings. And I can use the trappings as like a set of clothes, but fundamentally I'm a random dude on the internet who happens to be doing this sort of thing. Yeah. I mean, and I think you have to play the game.

So I think that this is something that I've learned too, where there's a certain amount of ego dissolution that is required to own your accomplishments. Right. So if I like, so for me, it was a struggle when I ended up at Harvard about like how much do I, and there's this weird thing that people at Harvard do where they don't say they're at Harvard. So we kind of like, oh, yeah, like I'm, where are you doing? Oh, I'm in the northeast. I'm in Boston. This is a weird thing that people do where it's like, it's arrogant to say you're at Harvard. So you do this weird humble brag where you don't say it.

And then you get them to ask, like, where in Boston? Oh, you know a place. And then you like get them to ask and ask. And then you finally say, oh, I'm at Harvard. And then they're like, oh, look at how humble he is. He's at Harvard and he's humble. He's not one of the arrogant twins. And then I was like, that's dumb, right?

So if I was at the University of Texas, I would say I'm at the University of Texas. You just own it. So in that same way, like, you just own and you play the game of life if you're successful in some way. You own it. I own that I was successful and I own that I was a failure. Like they're both me. There's just some random guy. You know, one bad game and one good game.

You have a W and you have an L. Like, that's life. Yeah. Yeah. Great. I thought. Cool. I don't have more questions for you.

I know we've talked some in the past, but, you know, I think like this is great, dude. I think it's I think you've really come a long way in the last couple of years like Thanks, yeah thank you for your

various help and support along the way And I think a lot of the stuff that we talked about is I think is quite transferable to other people too So I think that there's a lot About ego and insecurity And it's really hard

but like recognizing that you're just a random dude I think is important for everybody Yeah. Or do that. Right. Cool. Good stuff. Thank you very much.

You're very welcome. So take care. Good luck. I strongly recommend y'all check out Ali's book. Like, it is really, really good. So I think there's a reason why it is successful. And then, you know, Ali mentioned that you don't have kids yet and our book about parenting video game addiction. That one's pretty good too.

And I think there's a lot of good communication stuff in there. So if you guys want to learn basic communication tech. Like that's a good place to get them. We don't have like a communication guide or anything. But I think definitely check out Ali's channel. Do you want to tell us where we can find you? Oh yeah. Check out Ali Abdal on YouTube.

Or if you search for feel good productivity on Amazon or wherever books are sold, you will find it. And if you enjoy this conversation and you've read the book, then nice Amazon reviews on my love language. So I'd really appreciate a nice Amazon review. Yeah. So I think we'll try to do you a solid by making sure that those negative reviews are not hidden. and hopefully people don't troll you. But anyway, so thanks a lot, Ali. Good luck with everything.

You know, anything exciting coming up that we should be, like, aware of? Or is it just going to be? I know you just came out with a book. So I'm sure you're resting some. I'm just doing the random dude on the internet things. Are you just making videos and enjoying the journey along the way? Cool. Well, definitely check out Ali's content.

Ali, thank you so much for coming. Take care, buddy. Yeah, you too. Bye.