HealthyGamerGG - Dr. K Chats With US Surgeon General

Episode Date: October 13, 2024

Today's discussion was with the US Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, focusing on the critical topic of Mental Health. Our conversation delves into key aspects such as the landscape of mental health in the US and the governmental initiatives aimed at addressing these pressing issues. Check out more mental health resources here! https://bit.ly/3xsk6fE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Twitch. And thank you for being here. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about, you know, how you like to be addressed? You can call me Vivek. Call me about my first name. Okay. And you can call me Alok if you would like to. Sure.

So welcome Vivek. And I understand that you're Surgeon General of the United States. That's right. What's that like? It's an incredible privilege to be able to serve. and it's different every day. As people often ask me, what's a typical day in the life? And it's quite different.

Some days I'm traveling to communities across the country, working with people on some of our priority issues, whether that's mental health or other issues that they're concerned about. Other days I'm here working with a lot of our strategic partners in Washington, D.C., both in and outside of government. And we're always building in new initiatives and launching new products. You know, most recently we launched an initiative around addressing loneliness and isolation. which are profound challenges for the country, as well as some broader topics related to mental

health, including social media use. So it's an incredible, you know, a job and an experience, and at least something happens once a day, I would say at least once a day that reminds me of how, just what a blessing it is to be able to serve in this capacity. Awesome, man. So can you just tell us a little bit? So I know you all have released three advisories in like rapid pacing. So one on youth mental health, one on isolation and loneliness, and one on social media.

Can you tell us what's going on with mental health in this country today? Yeah, so we have released a number of advisories related to youth mental health and mental health, I'd say, more broadly. And the reason we've done that is because in COVID-19, the pandemic we've come through, this has really put a real strain on people's mental health and well-being. seeing it in the numbers in terms of anxiety and depression. But we also know that even long, even before the pandemic, long before COVID-19 arrived, there was a mental health crisis in America. We did kids, for example, in the decade prior to the pandemic, there was a 57% increase in the suicide rate among young people.

And we had seen in the, also in the decade prior to the pandemic, that more and more high school students were saying that they felt persistently sad or hopeless. number now stands close to half. And so we knew that there was a problem beforehand. And sadly, the pandemic poured fuel on that fire. But the reason that I've made this a priority and why we worked on mental health from so many different angles is because I really believe that mental health is a fuel that allows us to show up in our lives, at work, at school, for our families, for our communities. And many of us know this actually intuitively. Like if you think about a day when you were struggling with your mental health or a period that you went through when you were having

a tough time with your mental health, but most people know that that was a time where sometimes it was harder to really focus on work or to do work or maybe you didn't do as well in school or you weren't able to just be present with your friends, you know, with your family members as much as you normally would. Maybe you tended to volunteer less or engage less in your community. Our mental health is really what impacts how we show up in the world. And so addressing mental health to me is really key to addressing not just the health of individuals, but the health of society more broadly. Wow. Okay. And what do you think we can do about that? Like what should like social media is is all over the place? Like how do we handle this? Because we're growing up in this environment,

right? Well, we are. And one thing I need to realize is that as big as a challenge as mental health is, there are actually a lot of things we can do as individuals to help not only ourselves, but other people with their mental health and well-being. And this is in addition, of course, to all of the policy actions that we have to take and the programmatic changes that we can take on, which will help make mental health care more available to people, that will help invest in prevention, that will help to ensure that we're using technology in particular to bring care to where people are, as opposed to waiting for them to drive 30 miles and wait three months to get an appointment.

So there's a lot that we have to do in terms of programs and policies to make care more available and address the root causes of mental illness. But as individuals, it turns out there's a lot we can do too. So, like, number one, we know that strengthening social connection in our life helps it with mental health. When people struggle with loneliness and isolation, it actually increases their risk of depression, anxiety, and suicide. So think about this for a moment. Like, each of us, most of us are living busy lives, right?

And a lot of times, what gets edged out in those busy lives are people, right? But if we can take 15 minutes a day to reach out to people we care about, if we can make sure that when we're talking to friends, catching up with family members, that we're actually fully present during our conversations, that we're not distracted by devices, these are simple ways that we can actually start to strengthen our relationships again. The second thing that we can do is we can be mindful of our use of technology, recognizing that technology in the end of the day, it can be a blessing or a curse. It can help. It can hurt. It depends how it's designed and how we use it.

And what has happened in the last, you know, a couple of decades is that technology has really taken over so many elements of our life. We get up. First thing we do so many times is look at our devices and it's the last thing we see before we go to bed at night. But it's also invaded our space for a conversation. It's taken the time that we perhaps had when we were just thinking or reflecting or reading a book and perhaps a limit. And, and perhaps a that time. So one of the things we can do with when it comes to technology is we can draw boundaries around our use of technology and say, okay, there are certain times in my day where I'm going to actually create a tech-free zone, right? And that could be the time right

before you go to bed and throughout the night, because protecting sleep is vital for your mental health and well-being. And we know that when kids in particular, a third of adolescents say they're staying up until midnight or later on weekdays using their devices and that use is predominantly. on these social media. So we can draw those kind of zones. Another zone actually would be around meal times when we're with other people. So we can just focus on them. And another time would actually be physical activity. When we're out, you know, working out or, you know, playing a game of pickup soccer or basketball or doing whatever it is that gives us sort of the chance to be physically active, making sure that's also a space where we don't have, we're not sort of constantly

distracted by our devices can be helpful too. So there's a lot of we can do as individuals. But the last thing I'll mention, which is perhaps one of the most important, is we can make sure that we're checking on one another throughout our days. And it turns out that there are a lot of people who are walking around today who feel invisible, who feel alone, who even though they're surrounded by lots of people, they just feel like they, there's no one who really cares about them per se, that people are busy with their own lives and that they've become increasingly invisible. and sometimes simply by checking on a co-worker or a classmate or reaching out to a friend, not for a particular reason or because you need something, but just to say, hey, I'm thinking of you, want to see how you're doing. That can make all the difference in the world, especially at a time where so many people are feeling invisible and, like, they don't belong.

Yeah, so that sounds great. Can I challenge some of that a little bit? Sure. So the stuff that you're saying sounds weird to me. and like like you just pick like how does that like you say you know talk to someone for 15 minutes a day leave your house and go play pick up soccer or pick up basketball like like this sounds kind of like a weird question but but isn't that weird how do you actually do that so well I'm glad good I'm glad you asked so it turns out that it may feel a bit weird because we've become less accustomed to doing

these things, like in recent years. But the truth is, this is actually what we have done for generations, and this is actually how we've evolved as human beings over thousands of years, is to have face-to-face interactions with one another, to have some frequency of interaction. Now, talking to someone for 15 minutes a day, this doesn't have to be hard. You can think about a friend who you haven't talked to in a while or a friend you've talked to often. You can think about a family member. You can think about a co-worker who you could catch up with maybe over lunch or just have a conversation with. at the beginning or end of the day. There are people who are actually pretty close to us

or approximate in our lives. And sometimes it's literally just a simple phone call, you know, or a text to them to say, hey, I'm thinking of you, want to know how you're doing, that can build a bridge that will feel a lot easier once you've done it. Whereas before, I know sometimes

I can feel like the activation energy to reach out can be pretty high. But the one other interesting thing I'll tell you is that if you're thinking, gosh, this feels unusual to like reach out and talk to someone for 15 minutes a day, you're not the only one who feels that. The person you're reaching out to may also be inhibited about reaching out to other people and may not do it.

But here's the interesting thing I'll tell you is a vast majority of time when you reach out, people welcome it. It may be unusual, but that actually makes it all the more welcome. I'll give you a simple example. I don't know when the last time was, I looked that maybe you wrote a letter to somebody, you know, like a physical letter and mailed it to them. But it doesn't happen very often anymore, right? Because we just write emails or we send a text message or we communicate some other way. but whenever you do receive a message, like think about the last time you received a letter, like from a friend.

This is epic. Yeah, keep going. It actually, you're like, wow, this is so unusual. This is so interesting. Like, it makes it even more special that you're receiving that. And I just recently received a letter from a friend. And I don't get letters very often anymore. But it was, like, incredible just to like see the time.

Someone had actually taken time to write something to me a good friend. And it meant like even more to me than it would have like 20 years ago. All that just to say that when you, you reach out to other people, even though it might feel a little weird or unusual, if you're not used to doing that, just know that you will almost always feel better having done it, and the person you reached out to will feel better, too, even more so because it's become a more unusual thing for people to do, you know, in modern life. But if I write someone a letter, aren't they going to think I'm weird?

Like, isn't that a weird thing to do? Well, you don't have to write them a letter. You can call them if you want, but if you did choose to write them a letter, they would probably think it's very unusual, but I don't know that they were necessarily, but they would, my guess, from my own experience is that they would probably be touched that, hey, you thought enough of them to actually write them a letter. So I think you're doing something super cool here, which I think is subtle. So I asked you, do you think it's weird?

And you said, it's probably unusual. And I think even the way that you're talking about it is really interesting because my word choice is loaded with judgment, which I think is actually a huge part of what people nowadays struggle with. They're like, if I just pick up the phone and call, I was thinking about you. That can seem creepy. Like, hello, Vivek, I've been thinking about you. You know?

So, yeah, no, it's an interesting point. I think it's really in how you phrase it. But the difference to me between unusual and weird is exactly what you said. It's judgment. But the thing is, when something is unusual, that can actually make it feel more special. Right. So like when I interestingly talk to people out there who have struggled with loneliness, is by the way, a lot of people do one and two adults in America report measurable levels of loneliness

and it's even higher among young people. But when I talk to folks who have received that kind of outreach, the unexpected call from a friend or unexpected message from a family member, even when they're, a lot of times they're surprised, but they're grateful. It's like if you walk around feeling like, you know what, nobody really, does no one seems to really care about me. If I disappeared tomorrow, no one would even notice. And then someone actually does notice you. And they say, hey, you know, you popped in my head the other day. I was just wondering how you're doing. I wanted to check on you. You're like, wow, like I actually matter to

somebody. You know, somebody cared enough about me to reach out. So what I want people to know is that at a time where so many people are struggling with their own self-worth, with a sense of loneliness, sometimes that very simple outreach from you can have a powerful impact on them. And sometimes we may not realize it because it just seems like, oh, I'm just making a phone call. to them or writing them a message. But it could be a lifeline to people who otherwise are feeling isolated. Yeah, I think that's beautifully said. And I think it's fascinating how the way you use language, I think that's what's missing. Because anytime we think about doing something, we attach some kind of judgment to our own actions. We think it's weird. Whereas you're

acknowledging it's not commonplace, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. And I think a lot of times people in our community and on the internet, we will negotiate against ourselves and think about the worst version of this, right? Like what people will think I'm weird, but I think it's spot on. I think one way to kind of think about it is if someone did this and reached out to you and was like, hey, just wondering how you're doing, you know, that, I mean, I think people in our community acknowledge that that feels good. One other thing, if we can bump up the difficulty a little bit. So if someone reaches out to you, I think it's reached a point where we don't really know how to respond to those open-ended, authentic desires for connection, as opposed to, hey, do you

want to grab food sometime or, you know, do you want to queue up for a video game? How do you respond if someone, like, writes you a letter or calls you or DMs you without an ulterior motive? Yeah. So that's a really good question. Because you're right, there's this whole dialogue that goes down in our heads before we think about how to respond, right? We're thinking, one, what am I really feeling? Do I want to share it with them? What will they think about me if I share it with them? Will they tell somebody else if I share it with them?

Like how I feel about myself if I'm really open with? There are all of these dialogues that are going on in our head before we even utter a word in response. And sometimes that can become complicated and confusing. And it can ultimately sometimes result in saying nothing. And just moving past the message and saying, just respond later, right? Here's what I try to do. And I've actually, the reason I know this in part is because I've actually felt it. Yeah.

I've been one of those people who's gotten sometimes those outreaches over the years. And unsure what to say, I just say, I'll respond later and then days go by and I never respond, right? And that's not ideal. So what I've defaulted to is just a way to really simplify it, which is, it might sound a little scary, but it's actually the, to me, the simplest thing to do. And it helps me actually respond quickly, which is two words, just to be. be real. That's it. Right? So in those moments, I'm trying to think, well, how will they think?

Well, how they perceive me, et cetera. I just say, you know what? Let me just be real here. Let me just be honest about what I'm feeling, what I'm doing, like what I'm thinking right now. And the first time, a few times I did that, I brace myself. I was like, well, how are they going to respond? Are they going to think I'm weird? Are they not going to respond?

Which would be perhaps even the worst because then they maybe think I'm terribly weird, so much so that they couldn't write back. But I'll tell you this. Every time I've realized, almost every time, when we're real with somebody else, what we're doing is we're not just giving ourselves a chance to be authentic, which, by the way, feels good in the long term.

But we're actually telling the other person, hey, it's okay for you to be real too. Because a lot of times that's what people want, right? If you think about some of the best conversations that we've had in our lives, right? They're usually conversations where we didn't have to pretend to be someone else. We didn't have to put on errors. We didn't have to put on fronts, right?

We could just like literally be real, be ourselves and not worry the other person was going to judge us for it. And we're in one of those moments where we have all built so many layers around us. We've become professional mask wearers. You know, we walk around with these masks that are shaped by what we think society wants, what we think other people want us to be. But underneath all that is us, right? And this is a time to actually slowly peel that stuff back and say, you know what?

There's going to be real. Let their chips fall where they may. But I'll tell you almost always, they fall in a place where people are grateful for the authenticity and encourages them to be open as well. Yeah, I loved, as you were sort of articulating that internal dialogue, it sounds like you're one of us underneath everything, which is awesome. And chat, by the way, is loving everything you're saying. And I think it's impactful in a different way because I think when we think about you, we think about like this is not a regular human being. This is the Surgeon General of the United States.

And to hear that. And I'll tell you one other thing I look at. you know, I'm an introvert, you know, some of the folks on here may be introverts as well, but I'm also a shy introvert, right? So like growing up, let me tell you, that was particularly tough because, you know, there were times I wanted to like make friends, hang out, you know, play ball with other kids, etc. But at a hard time sort of figuring out how to start a conversation or kind of get going. I was always worried people are going to maybe think poorly of me or judge me or I'd say the wrong thing. And so I would think a lot, you know, internally before I said

anything and would overthink things a lot. And I'll tell you, it was really exhausting. It was really exhausting. And it led to a lonely experience because I wasn't reaching out and making the kind of friendships that I really wanted to make. And it took me a long time to kind of get over that, to realize that what felt like a really risky move, which is just being myself and just saying what was on my mind, that that actually turned out was the better path. You know, it felt scary initially, but it felt so much better, like in the long term. And it actually helped me actually reach out and connect other people. And then I would realize that they were feeling the same way. In fact, years after I was in grade school, I reconnected with a bunch of friends from there.

And they all told me something very very interesting because I was looking at their lives when I was in school thinking, wow, these guys seem to have it all together. They've seemed to be hanging out with other people. They've been a great time. I'm the only one who's like sort of shy and introverted and having a hard time connecting. But they all told me to a T. They're like, you know, we felt the same way too. we were having a hard time connecting. We felt weird. We felt isolated and awkward.

And I was like, God, I had no idea that these other people were feeling the same way. So the bottom line is like if you're out there feeling like sometimes it's hard to connect or feeling like you're having a whole internal dialogue that's like paralyzing you from acting and reaching out to other people, just no, you're not alone. There are a lot of people who are struggling with this. But this is like the power of moments where we can be real. So we can break that cycle. We can short circuit those thoughts that are like, you know, cycling

through our head. And we can have a genuine human interaction. And I'll just tell you, that's an act of courage. An acts of courage give other people the courage to act as well. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Can I ask you more about this? Yeah. So I totally get that long term, right? You've learned the lesson that reaching out can be initially scary, but that over time, you form connections with people. It's great. Fantastic. But in that initial stuff, you said it took you a long time. And that's where I imagine actually most of our audiences now. They're not in the later stages. They're in the, oh, my God, this is terrifying.

Do you remember what you're like almost like minute process when you were working on this? Like what could you do to actually make it easier on yourself? Yeah, it's a good question. So a couple things I'd say. One is the time that it was hardest for me was in building up. up to actually reaching out. But the time where it started to feel better was about probably 15 to 20 seconds into their response.

Because I realized after that that I had opened the door and then someone else was walking through it. That it wasn't just like opening it and there was no one there. People ran the other way. But that only took 15 to 20 seconds, right? Because you're putting something out and then you're waiting for a response.

But a couple of things that I found to be helpful. And this is actually some interesting research behind this as well, which is that if you picture, if you assume that the other person is going to have a positive response to you, that actually changes how you show up in the conversation. So if you and I are meeting for the first time Alok, and we just did a few minutes ago, and if I assume that Alok is going to like me, right, then that actually turns out makes me warmer in my interactions toward you. And that warmth is perceived by the other person and increases the likelihood that they will like me. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And so there's some interesting research behind that. But like, so one of the things I try to do is if I'm feeling nervous about an interaction, right, whether it's an interaction at work or with a, you know, with somebody socially or whatever might be, I just sort of pause for a minute to take a deep breath and then picture them enjoying my company, you know, and liking our conversation. And it turns out that changes how I behave. The other thing that I try to remind myself of, when I do feel some trepidation by reaching out, is I try to remember my history. I try to remember the instances where I did actually reach out, right, even when it felt weird or felt awkward. And I try to remember how that felt, right? So speaking of unusual, you know,

practices, I'll tell you about something that I did in medical school, which was unusual. So I mentioned I was shy and introverted growing up. That was throughout grade schools, throughout college, and it was into like the beginning of medical school. But I was starting med school, I remember, and I was 100 classmates, right? All people I'd never met before, I was like excited to be a part of the community, but I was like, I'm not like typically the kind of person who like goes to big raging parties and like meets people there and like, you know, and goes to clubs and like make something, you know, best friends.

Like that just doesn't feel like the right, you know, comfortable environment for me. I was more comfortable with like one-on-one or small group conversation. So here's what I decided to do. I said, you know, I'm going to use my time that I have for long. lunch and dinner when a lot of us are in the cafeteria together, I'm just going to ask somebody who I'm interested in if they want to have lunch. And I just have like a one-on-one conversation with them over lunch. And if you think about it, like that can seem like a bit of an unusual or scary thing to do, right? Like, you know, everyone's like hanging out at the cafeteria. And you're

asking somebody to like, you know, just to get together and have lunch one-on-one. And I would do like, you know, very simply. Like after a lecture or something, you know, if I was sitting next to somebody and I actually was having a little compromise or I thought, hey, this interesting person I'd love to chat with them. I'd just say, hey, you know, I'm going to be having lunch in the cafeteria later today or tomorrow. Do you want to get a bite together? You know, we'd love to chat. And, and, you know, almost, in fact, I can't think of an instance where someone said no. But here's the interesting thing I try to remember. Those conversations were some of the best conversations I had in my five years in graduate school. I made friends through those conversations because

the doors open, we got to know each other. Friends who remained dear friends to this day. And And even though it seemed like an unusual thing, a couple months into that, I started getting complaints from people who said, how come you haven't asked me yet to come and have lunch or dinner one-on-one? When is my turn? And it was one of those moments when I realized that I wasn't the only one craving connection. There were a lot of other people craving it as well, but I was blind to that. So I try to remember my past also and think, even though sometimes I might feel scared

to reach out, the moments where I've been courageous enough to do it in the past, it's led to amazing experiences and great friendships. And it reminds me that, hey, a lot of us are in this boat of wanting to connect more deeply. So here's what I'm kind of hearing. So I think it's really interesting because I think there's a sophisticated process going on.

So there's first of all, you align behind a central goal of being authentic. Right? So once you have kind of like a sort of abstract goal, it kind of recruits different parts of your brain to move towards it. I think you also have, you're very careful with your phrasing because even the way that you reached out to people to lunch, I think is something that we're sort of losing in the day of like emojis, which is, hey, I'm going to grab lunch. Would you like me to join me? You know, I'd love to chat. Like it's very low pressure, low stakes, opens the door for people. And I think sometimes people don't, you know, know quite how to say that. So I think there's actually a lot of sophistication. And then the next thing is your attitude. So I think you actually do some interesting cognitive things about removing judgment from the equation weird versus unusual.

You really kind of look at things objectively. And the last thing is that you actually do a really good job of post processing where you reflect back on things and you actually like really solidify your wins. And it's fascinating because even in 15 minutes, I mean to hear you come from where you are to. where you are today, I think there's a lot that people can learn about just like this process. It's really interesting.