HealthyGamerGG - Dr K Talks to a PROUD Trump Supporter + David Pakman!

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Dr K talks to Jimmy From Philly - a Trump supporter from Philadelphia that is a regular on David Pakman's show. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So today we're going to do something fun and something different, something I'm really looking forward to. So, you know, we've been on the David Packman show, I think, about twice now. And, you know, really appreciate his dialogue in the way that he works and the way he thinks and stuff like that. And so, you know, the last time we were on David Packman's show, we sort of talked a little bit about, you know, sometimes he'll say that people will kind of disagree with him and we'll be pretty vocal. and I sort of mentioned to him that, you know, it would be really cool to, like, sort of talk to someone in an open-ended, non-judgmental manner about, you know, what they believe and how they came to believe it. Because I find that so much of political discourse right now is, like, really just, you know,

plastering the other side as backward or idiots or whatever. And one of the things that I really appreciate about, you know, training to be kind of non-judgmental through, you know, training to become a monk and sort of accepting people where they're at and like learning how to listen is all and also like learning how to be a good listener through um you know training as a therapist i think that those skills can actually be applied to like you know non-therapeutic or non-spiritual places and one of the goals that we we kind of are focused on you know here at healthy gamer is just to try to understand people right and educate people about different different perspectives and so a lot of times our focus has been on like

mental health but sometimes we'll talk about stuff like you know how to efficiently study and things like that. But today we're going to try something a little bit different. And we're going to hop into a call with David Packman, as well as a long time. I don't know if I should call him fan of the show. But there's someone who disagrees a lot with David Packman, but I understand calls in a lot. And I think they've got like a good and healthy dialogue, hopefully. And that's Jimmy from Philly. And so we're going to hop in with them and we're just going to talk to Jimmy and David for a little while and try to sort of understand, you know, a little bit about Jimmy's experience of the world and what he believes. So I know it's a little bit different, but I'm really looking forward to it.

And let's get started. Welcome, everyone. David, do you want to go ahead and kick things off? Let me do that. Yeah, just to kind of set the situation here. So basically, I talked to all sorts of people on my show. At some point, Jimmy started calling in, and we know Jimmy is Jimmy from Philly. and we would, he would bring to me different ideas and questions, and I found Jimmy to be an

interesting character, a sad character in many ways, a concerning character in some ways as well. I think our rapport is sort of okay, although Jimmy does regularly say, you know, homophobic things, transphobic things, racist things, et cetera, and I think there's probably a lot to dig into there about the sort of origins or oranges of that. A couple of things I'll mention about, you know, our dialogue with Jimmy. Jimmy has talked to me about his problems with alcohol, and you guys can probably see he's got some bottles there over his right shoulder, and that's something I've talked to Jimmy about before.

Jimmy has talked about how he has a daughter, but at least at one point wasn't allowed to see her because of some physical violence that Jimmy was at least accused. I'll say he was accused of, and we'll maybe leave it to Jimmy to tell us more about the specifics of that. Jimmy was also arrested not long ago because of, as I understand it, chasing a car with four black teenagers down the street while intoxicated. And that led to a sort of legal situation as well for Jimmy. And that's kind of the Jimmy that I know big picture. And every once in a while, Jimmy will say something that.

sort of open and he seems open to considering other ideas, etc. But very quickly he'll go back into the transphobia, the homophobia, the racism. And that's kind of, that's Jimmy as far as my relationship with him, which has been through the internet and through my show. Quite the introduction. So I want to just clarify a couple things. So I noticed, you know, David mentioned like alcohol use and things like that. So just to clarify and make sure we're all in the same page, Jimmy, I am a psychiatrist, but my understanding of this conversation is that, you know, I'm not here, because David's here, too.

We're going to just three people having a conversation. I wanted to just make sure that are you under the impression that I'm your medical doctor or that I'm here to diagnose you with anything, treat you for anything? Okay. So we're just going to have a conversation and try to understand each other better. So the goal of what we do, the reason I stream is just so that we can try to understand people better and share that understanding with everyone who's watching. Are you kind of cool with that? Yes.

Just so you understand, you know, if after the call, if you do sort of decide that you do want mental health support or treatment or things like that, you're welcome to kind of message us and we can kind of provide you with resources. We do that for every, you know, guests that comes on. But that's kind of at your request. going to push anything on you or recommend anything or anything like that. It's just sometimes. I'm sure I'll be just fine. Okay. So, Jimmy, is it okay if I kind of ask you? I mean, do you want to share a little bit? Like, do you want to offer an introduction or I've got a couple of questions already? Yeah. So first of all, like, how did it feel to hear David's kind of like litany of how he introduced you? Well, he's gotten a lot of it wrong, actually. Okay. Can you? When I did the call with him last

year, I clearly said that they were for black 20-somethings, not teenagers. This didn't occur in Philadelphia. It occurred in a suburb of Philadelphia. Let's see, what else? I was arrested for public drunkenness, but I beat the case. They had a video of me going after a car. It doesn't prove that I was drunk. The rest of me because I was off my part. The video showed the, that I was off the property and they said I was publicly drunk. The video showed that I was angry. Not that I was drunk.

I was drunk, but I was very, I wasn't that drunk. They were ready to let me go at the police station. I said the M were in the back of the police car, so they wouldn't let me go. Sure. So what I'm kind of hearing is that like you didn't get a fair rap from David. Well, Doc, here's what happened. Okay. So I'm a Trump supporter.

signs on my lawn. They continued to get stolen, right? So I sat out there and was guarding them. And I'm drinking a little bit while I'm out there. Four black men, bum rushed the lawn. They take signs real quick. And they ride around the lock, taunting me three times. Fuck Whitey. Fuck Trump. The second time they did it, I ran in the house. I got a knife. Third time, they got caught at the light. I ran after the car. I was a little tipsy. I stopped to stab the top of the tire. I should have stabbed the sidewalk, but the knife disintegrated in my hand. And they got out of the car laughing and then chased me back to the house.

And something that went took a video of me doing this. And they gave it to the cops. And the cops locked me up for public drunk of this. But I beat the case because they never showed up. They didn't have a case. Yeah. So, I mean, thanks for sharing that, Jimmy. I appreciate it.

But what I'm kind of curious about is like, when you have kind of your side of the story. And like, I was frankly kind of shocked. I mean, David, is it, I mean, is it okay if I be critical of you for a second? Please. I wouldn't, I would love it. So like, here he is introducing you. And like, he starts off with like bottles in the back and like got arrested for this.

And like, you know, it's kind of a weird way. David's a real charm. Yeah. I mean, how does that feel to be? I mean, like, because it's almost like he's sharing like the most negative or provocative things about you. Well, David's a propagandist. What can I tell you?

I mean, he's good at it. Yeah. So how does that make you kind of feel to be introduced like that? I was laughing the entire time. I noticed that. Yeah, that's why I was kind of asking, right? And so what? I don't get offended easy, Doc.

If that's where you're getting at, I really don't. People can say what they want. I really don't care. Yeah. So, okay. I'm a generally happy person. Yeah. So, now see, what David wants to make,

K out of it in this situation is basically that I'm crazy for going after the car. Well, I had two choices, Doc. How many men are going to sit there when four men come onto their lawn, take their property, I don't give a shit what it was, took four of my Trump signs.

Then they have the temerity to drive around the neighborhood three times yelling racial epitats of me, pointing me with the signs he got the window, and I'm just supposed to sit there like a little soy boy? I don't think so. That's not going to happen. That's not the type of person I am. I am going to do something about it.

Right or wrong, I'm going to jail. I don't give a fuck. You do something like that to me, you're going to get held responsible in some kind of way. I think the whole thing's funny. The whole thing's funny. You know, I can't. You kind of said that's not the kind of person I am. Can you help me understand what kind of person you are? Well, apparently David would have sat on the wall and watched these morons ride around and torn him. David thought it was critical. for me to go after them. Yeah, so, Jimmy, I'm going to just, I may do something a little bit unusual. I may sort of ask a question again.

So like when I ask you, like you said, that's not the kind of person I am. And you say, well, David would have done this. Like, I'm not interested in what kind of person David is. Well, David asked the soy boy, like in other words, I had two choices, right? I was either to call the police or do nothing. But David was trying to make me sound crazy that I actually took action and went after these people. that just stole from me. And do you find that...

I'm not the kind of person that's going to sit there and watch something like that. Yeah, sure. I'm going to handle it. Yeah, you know, I get that. So I'm, do you oftentimes, so what I'm hearing is that like, you know, a lot of people in your situation kind of may lay down and take it, but you're not going to lay down and take it. Yeah, but this was basically a thing David put out there, you know,

like I was nuts for taking action. I was not crazy. I'm just the type of person I am. And I wouldn't blame the guy for not doing nothing. Sure. So I mean, but yeah. Yeah. And do you find that oftentimes, you know, people try to like paint you as crazy by sort of sharing stories like this or things like that?

Well, I am a little nutstock. I have no problem with that. What is that? I mean, I do things that most people wouldn't do. I'm very aware of that. That is my personality. That's how I am. Can you help me understand that a little bit?

Like, what do you do that other people wouldn't? Like, help me understand, like, who are you, bro? Gee, I don't know. I like to have fun. Okay. I see everything is funny. Okay. I make fun of everybody and everyone, including myself.

Okay. But see, David, see, if I make fun of, like, a homosexual or a transsexual, let's face it, a man in the dress is the funniest thing since the dawn of time, all right? I'm sorry. I make fun of these folks, but that doesn't mean that I hate them. If these people want to be accepted as normal, then they better be ready to take jokes. You understand? Yeah.

Because if you're making them some secret cow, which is what David does, and then that's just, they're not special people, okay? I have nothing against them. But I think when shit is funny, it's funny, and I'm going to point it out. Sure. So what I'm kind of hearing is the way that you kind of treat them in a sense fairly. right because everyone gets made fun of i don't treat them anyway i make fun of them sure yeah big deal woo they can't handle that and you're wearing a dress trying to look if you look like steve i'm not going you soon as you okay i'm just not doing it i'm not doing it i think in new york

a landlord or an employer is fined well over a hundred thousand dollars if they don't refer to these people as a certain pronoun it could be they zer zay what that's insanity I don't got to accept your delusion. Go ahead and be deluded. You have the freedom to do it. But you're not going to force me to address you as a woman when you're clearly a man. It's that simple. This is logic.

This is science, biology. Yeah. And so I'm a little bit curious, Jimmy, when you sort of, you know, when there's a group of people that are defying science and logic and biology, like how does that, because you seem to get kind of passionate there as you were. talking about it? How does that kind of affect you? It pisses me off. What pisses you off about it? What pisses me off? You're trying to get me to accept your delusion.

You have the right to be delusional, but you ain't making me... Look, if you look like Steve, I'm not calling you, Susie. That sums it up. The hell of philosophy on the issue. Sure. I got no problem with gay people. I got no problem with trans people. I think it's funny as hell. I think it's absolutely hilarious. I think it's absolutely hilarious. And I mocked them. But that doesn't mean I hate them. That doesn't mean if I were, if, look, if I were the grand poo bomb, would I stop it? No, I think it's hilarious. It's a shit show. I mean, you know, I just think it's funny. And can you help me understand? This may sound like a weird question, okay? But can you help me understand what you think is funny about it? A man in a dress. That says it all. Okay.

My name's Linda and they got a deep voice. I mean, come on, man. This shit is funny. Okay. Okay. I hear what you're saying. So I think part of the problem with, you know, dissecting humor is the moment you dissect it, it kind of falls apart, right? Part of it is the commies are destroying comedy.

That's what it really is. Okay. Everybody wants to get, you don't have the right not to be offended. You don't. People can make fun of you. It doesn't make them hateful people. Okay, I'm not a hateful person. Not a racist either. How do you know whether someone is, is, you know, when someone mocks you, how do you know whether that person is hateful or not hateful? You don't, but this is the way the left paints comedy anymore. You can't make fun of the homos. You can't make fun of the trannies.

You know, I mean, I mean, look at YouTube. They've got to. a library of things you can't talk about. What? Why not? Okay. I hear what you're saying. So what I'm also hearing that, you know, that they're kind of anti-science in a sense. And that they're also- A man can't become a woman. This is impossible. I don't care if they cut their dick off. Don't cut their... I don't care. They cannot become a woman. When they can change DNA, maybe you got an argument. But these people cannot become women. It's just impossible. So, Jimmy, let me, let me kind of ask you.

So you were kind of saying when someone mocks someone else, you can't tell whether there's hatred or not hatred. Right? Like, if I mock you, if I make fun of you, you know. But look, if you're known as a person to do that, if you're known as a person, like I used to do stand-up comedy, people that know me know, you're, I mean, it's not my fault that you're a snowflake and you can't handle a joke.

You know what I mean? That's not, if you want to get offended, you can get offended. I'm going to laugh you even harder. Okay. So now what I'm kind of hearing you say is that if they know you're a comedian, then it's okay to make, you know. No, it's always okay to make fun of people. Why not? Humor is a spiritual principle.

It actually brings people together, but the left is trying to destroy it. Okay. So, Jimmy, is it okay if I ask you a little bit about, it seems like you have a lot of really strong beliefs about what's going on? Is that fair to say? Yeah. So is it, I'm so curious. Can you help me understand, like, how you came to these opinions and how you came to believe these things? Because I believe my ears and my eyes. When I see a man in the dress, I almost fall the fuck down. I'm skipping down the street when I see this shit. Like, oh, my God, did you just see? What? Okay. out of sympathy for these people, but the solution isn't to follow their delusion. It's not. Dress up, play Barbie. I don't give a shit. When you're trying, it's coming down the pipe

where they're going to, I'm going to be forced to address these people. Jim, like whatever they fucking want. Like what? I'm going to point something out to you. So there have been like three or four questions and I'm curious, you know, what you think about that. That I've asked you about you. And your answer seems to be, doesn't involve, of you. So I'll ask you like, how did you come to believe these things? And you kind of started out with like saying, you know, you want to believe this. I told you I believe my eyes and my ears. Yeah. This is how my brain works. Everything's funny. Okay. Everything's funny. Like I think in cartoons sometimes. I don't know why. So Jimmy, can you help me understand a little bit about where you

grew up? Can I ask you some questions about your past? Yeah, yeah. I grew up in Philly. Okay. What was growing up like for you? What was what? What was growing up like for? I was very happy. I used to be so happy. I used to skip down the streets. And, of course, the kids in Philly broke my balls until I stopped doing it. You know, the kids on the corner, I would skip. I was literally that happy.

And I have a lot of energy, too. So kids would make fun of me, but, you know, I mean, that's Philly for you. You know, you can't do a goddamn thing without getting your balls busted on the corner. You know, it's like, that's what happens in Philly. I don't know. Dr. Kay, I don't want to interrupt at such a key moment, but I do want to just say, because I'm not sure how familiar your audience maybe is either with me or with Jimmy, but this is not staged. And I think it's important that we just mentioned. None of this is staged. And I'm being serious here. This is not an act of any kind. We're just having a real conversation here. I didn't think it was changed. No, no, no. I know you don't think. I know you know it wasn't staged. But just for people, some people in your audience think this has to. to be staged. This is not staged.

This is not staged. Okay, sure. So, Jimmy, let me ask you. Apparently, I'm shocking the snowflakes. Yeah. So, Jimmy, so it sounds like when you were growing up, you used to, like, skip, and you said people would bust your balls for that. What is that? Can you help me understand what that means? Well, I mean, I was so happy that I literally skipped down the street as a child, and the kids would make fun of me. It wasn't that big of a deal. I just stopped skipping down the street. I was still happier down the motherfucker, but I stopped skipping down the street. That's all. Yeah. And I'm,

I have kind of a weird question. Like, so do you think that, I mean, how did you feel before, you know, when you were skipping down the street and people would start making fun of you? Do you remember how you felt as a kid? I didn't like it, but that's, that's what happens when you grow up in Philadelphia. Everybody knows what you're doing. They see you. You hang on the corner. You know, you got the girls. You got the guys. You know. Sure. So, so. People break your blows. People break your ball, you know. I'm hearing that people would make fun of you and that you sort of didn't like it, but that's life. Pretty much. Yeah. And I'm kind of curious, like, you know, this is going to

sound kind of weird, but do you think as a kid you would have preferred it? if they didn't make fun of you? No, because it taught me how to come back with snappy-witty responses to insults and shit. I see. So it's just fun of your guard in Philly. You know, you're hanging on the corner. You know, you got to be able to hold your own, you know. Sure.

So I'm hearing that it was kind of like you kind of grew up, right? So the school of hard knocks, like it sort of being street smart. I mean, I wasn't in some really bad neighbor. I grew up in Roxburgh. It's almost like the suburbs But I hung all over Philadelphia I hung in some tough neighborhoods I was in a boy's home

When I was a child And I would hang out with the kids In their neighborhoods Because it didn't see out West Philly I've been all over Philadelphia They used to call me the rabbit What does that mean you were in a boy's home Yeah my mom put me in a

It was called St. Francis Vocational School And you didn't have to adjudicated, but I was doing a lot of stupid shit I had gotten into drugs. I'd committed some crimes. My mother didn't know what to do with me. She put me in this boy's home. She thought she was

helping me. Believe me. I had a fucking ball there. I didn't want to leave. But, you know, you were allowed out in the community. You weren't, you know, I had friends. I had, you know, we went, went to concerts, like 50 of us. Like, I went to school in the area. I mean, I pretty much.

Doc, I literally have fun everywhere I go. Like, I have fun in jail. So, you know what I mean? Like, I always, my number one goal is to have fun. Okay. So can I ask you? Jimmy, so how old were you when you got put into the vocational school? 13.

And do you remember how you felt when your mom kind of put you in there? Well, I felt abandoned. I was very angry with my mother. I remember her crying kissing me and my dad going something like fly ride or some shit you know and but that we're all very quickly

but like the kind artist I was at that age I kept kind of let my mother think kind of letting her feel guilty but within days like I was having a very good time there these were all kids my age like they put

on different divisions. And there were some really cool characters, you know what I mean? Like I liked a lot of these guys. They had a pool table. They had a king pong table. You know, I mean, I had fun there. You know, I did. I got sent to another place called St. Gables.

That was a motherfucker. The Christian brothers ran that. You had to stay in line for a punishment. Stand in the line means you stand and face the wall for hours. And of course, I was always online. So why did you get sent to St. Gaines? The court sent me there. And with the insistence of my mother.

My mother thought that these places would help me. She didn't know what to do with me. What was wrong? What did you need help for? Well, I was doing drugs. I was committing crimes. She thought I was going to die early. So she told me she used to come to court,

and the judges were going to let me go. And she would, I want them placed in, and they would listen to her. And I would get real pissed off of her. Now, this was as a child. As an older man, now I understand what my mother was doing. You understand? And I agree with her.

You know, she just placed faith in agencies that, I don't know, probably made me worse. But, you know, as a child, I fucking hated her. So I'm kind of, what you're saying on the one hand makes a lot of sense. So can I just kind of repeat back what I've heard so far? So you kind of grew up. in Philly, right? Like, not like super bad situation, sort of suburbs, but you kind of hung out with some kids, went to some

parts of town where you kind of got made fun of. It sounds like you were sort of like a happy go lucky kid. Yeah, I've been described as exactly that. Yeah, and you know, the kids on the street, like they you know, they kind of got you to stop being so carefree pretty

quickly. No, I just stopped skipping. Sure. It started being a comedian. I just start being a comedian. You know, they were calling me gay and this and that, you know, I mean, it's just, it just teaches you the toughen up. That's all. I mean, you know, you're living in Philly. You're on the corner. You can't be a pussy. Sure. You can't be skipping down the street. Let's put it that way. And somehow you kind of started getting into trouble with like drugs and some criminal activity and

stuff. Yeah. And then your mom kind of shipped you off to one place. And then she kind of shipped you off. Like, and it sounded like you kind of did what you were supposed to do, right? So, and then Well, see, here's the first thing they did. They took me to the Valley Forge Military Academy, right? They were going to put me in there, right? And there was no fucking way I was going to be a tin soldier, right? So this, the guy that runs the joint, he said, I want to talk to him privately. And he pulls me in a room and he says, listen, if you don't want to come here, we're not going to make you come here.

He's like, I don't care what your parents say. He said, do you want to come here? I said, absolutely not. He said, okay. He had a little consultation with my mom and dad. We walked away. How did you feel about that? Great.

Great. Yeah. I mean, so I'm going to ask you kind of a weird question. Do you have a sense of why you felt great there? Because I didn't want to be a little cadet. You know what I mean? Huh. I didn't want to do that.

Follow orders, march around, wake up at 5 o'clock. Fuck that. I was 13. What the fuck? I see. And then how did it feel when the judge was ready to let you come home and your mom was like, uh-oh, we got to send him to St. Games? When I was a child that really pissed me to fuck off. What pissed you off about that? I'm watching because she won't take me back.

In other words, I got angry with her. And I would be in the cell with these kids from Kensington where Kestin's like a real big section of Philadelphia. It's where it's where the men are men. and so are to women. I mean, it's crazy. It's gotten even crazier. But these kids would do all kind of shit, like way worse shit to me. And their mothers and fathers would pick them up. Mine wouldn't. You know, and it, I mean, as young as that, that was my thinking. I couldn't stand her. I fucking hated her. And my father behind her back would say, you know, if it was up to me, this wouldn't happen, you know, so he pissed me off too because I thought he was a fucking

snowflake. You know, when I got older, I realized my mother was. trying to help me. That's all. I was an asshole. I was a kid. I mean, I was immature. Can I think for a second, Jimmy? What's that? Can I think for a second? You don't need my permission to think. So, you know, Jimmy, what I'm kind of hearing is that you have every reason to be a snowflake, but you'll be damned if you're a snowflake. No. How so? You get more respect if you're not a snowflake, see? But the way the way that's a snowflake, see? But the way the left paints people now, a soy boy is the way to go.

The real man is something. Yeah. So I think that's exactly what I'm saying. So what I'm saying is that like, you know, the story that you're sharing makes you, if you look at like if the checkboxes of being a snowflake, like getting abandoned by your mom, getting sent to a military academy, getting sent to a vocational school, getting sent to a nut, like you're being, you know, doing what you're graduating. from there or whatever. And then, you know, your mom is like, like the judge is about to send you home. Your mom's like, I can't handle it. Getting sent back to another place. Have your dad. Huh? I hated her for that. Yeah. And so like if we think about, like, you know, when you use the word snowflake, what I sort of think of is like a victim complex, right? Is that fair? Yeah. And so what I'm

thinking it, like when I hear this story, bro, like it sounds like, you know, if any one is entitled to call themselves a victim, it's you. but you're not going to do that. Well, no, I don't, I'm not a victim of, of anything. I'm, I'm, I'm just a person that's shaped by their experiences. I don't see myself as any kind of victim, no. I get, I get that you don't see yourself as a victim. That's sort of what I'm saying.

But if you like, if you think about it, right? So if you had like, you know, let's say a liberal snowflake who had your background, do you think they would think of themselves as a victim? I don't know. Interesting. Okay. I couldn't, you know, I can only speak for myself. I mean, you know, I don't know. Is it?

I mean, I was a liberal till my brother put me hip to what the corporate media does. It all started with Trayvon Martin. Like, what a bunch of shit that was. And then Michael Brown, what a bunch of shit that was. And you got to hear about racism. Like, like, nothing has went forward between the races. Like, like, it's systemic racism, which means everything's racist. Sick and tired of hearing this shit.

and my brother proved to me. I mean, NBC doctored the 911 call that Zimmerman made. That's clear they admitted it. They fired two underlings. But guess what? This is how the news works. And David knows this. Once you get someone to make an emotional judgment,

a nuclear bomb of truth isn't going to make that person change their opinion. Very few people will, because they don't want to admit they were duped. And this is how the news works. And this is how they brainwash people. you know, it's just, it's sickening. That's kind of interesting. So let me just make sure I heard you correctly. So once someone makes an emotional judgment,

no amount of truth is going to change their mind. For the most part, the media, that's what the media does. Sure. So, report some hyperbolic bullshit, report an absolute lie. And then the truth comes out a few days later, and people already made a judgment on it. For the most part, human beings are not going to go back on the initial emotional judgment that they made. That's just being human.

Yeah. So do you think people who make emotional judgments are aware that they make emotional judgments? Sure. Why wouldn't they be? Interesting. You bring somebody emotionally, you know, they know that. Interesting. So, because I would actually say like the opposite.

it. Like, I would say that, you know, once, what emotions tend to do is cloud your judgment. And most people who make emotional decisions believe they're behaving rationally. And that the more emotional you become, the more rational you think you are. What do you think about that? Maybe not in all circumstances. I mean, I don't know how that, you know, like, I don't know. Okay. It's just the way I am. Sure. I don't like being lied to. I don't like being. gas later, and they're doing it constantly. The media, politicians, you're being lied to all the time. Everything's a grift. Everything is a grift. Everything. Jimmy, a couple things. So, the second thing is, you know, so I'm sort of hearing, like, do you think it's possible for you to be a victim? That's, wow, that's, I guess anybody can be a victim. Yeah, why not? And what would that mean to you if you were a victim?

I wouldn't know because I don't behave like a victim. If somebody wrongs me, I get back at them. You know, I mean, I find a way to get back to them and I generally make it funny and spectacular. Okay. And this is what I do. And what would it, what would it feel like to not get back at them? Horrible. In what way?

me understand that. It's just like an unpaid debt. You know, the best way I can describe it. Like, I got to get back at you. I mean, I'm not saying be violent, but justice. You just expect me. I got to top it. Yeah. So what do you think about stuff like forgiveness and compassion? Well, you know, I was in AA for a while and they taught me about forgiveness, right? But then I started investigating different religions and I heard this rabbi on the TV say, he said, we believe in

forgiveness too, but not like the Christians. And he said, we believe you got to attone for something before we forgive you. That I agree with. The Christians want you to just forgive a motherfucker for just to forgive them. No, now, forgiveness should not come easy. Now, if you did somebody wrong, and you're looking to make amends,

you've got to atone for that shit before I forgive you. And I think that's more reasonable. Now I'm an atheist, but, you know, I do some of the religionists, basically it's a philosophy, right, religion. Some of them come up with some pretty good shit. I mean, I see no problem with

treat others as you should treat yourself. You know what I mean? I think that's a good thing. You know, I just don't believe there's a God. I mean, it's just ridiculous. But, you know, they do come up with some good shit for human relations, so, you know. And I'm going to ask you kind of personal question.

You're okay, totally fine to not answer it if you don't want to. I'll answer anything, John. Have you, you haven't heard my question yet. But have you forgiven your mom? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Help me understand how you did that. Well, I just grew up and realized that, look, my mother was manic depressive.

She had her own issues. She was in psychiatric hospital twice first months. right the woman was a little fucked up you know and and she wanted to help me there's no doubt of bad I remember my aunt from Scotland said my aunt I said something derogatory about my mother and she sat me down she said Jimmy do you realize you're the golden boy I said what do you mean she said when there was a problem with your eyes

she wished you right off to the doctor every time you were sick she brought you the heart she said that woman wasn't trying to hurt you she had her own problems and she went with what she thought would help you and apparently it didn't I wish they would have put a fucking guitar in my hand or something I mean that was a very

happy go lucky energetic child but you know they tried to make me into being hyperactive they got me taking riddling they had me in the crazy kid's school you know all this fucking stupid shit you know they should have just gave me something to keep me busy like if computers were around then

you know, I think I would have got into that. If streaming was around then, I think you would have become streaming. Around then in the early 70s? I don't think so. Yeah, so, Jimmy, that's so interesting. So I'm kind of hearing, so what I'm hearing is that your mom really doesn't have anything to atone for. No. She must be, look, she did her best. She told me.

She said, Jimmy, there's no book on how to raise children. I make mistakes. You know? So, you know, I'm all the love. me. She was a little nuts. I mean, she was mad depressive. I mean, you know. I mean, you know. But I,

the rest of my family don't forgive her. They're, they're kind of and they're kind of surprised that I take the tack that I take. My sister said to me one time, she put you in a cage. Like, my sister was threatening to put her in a home, right? My mother was definitely

afraid of this. And I got real pissed off of my sister. I said, look, she calls me crying one more time. I'm going to fuck you up. You know what I mean? Like, I'm tired. this shit. She wanted to die in her own home. The woman had the right to do that. There was nothing wrong with her. She fell one time. Big fucking deal. And my sister

was like literally terrifying her. And I stuck up for her. My sister was shocked. She said, well, she put you in a cage. I'm like, she put me in the cage for a fucking reason. He was trying to fucking help me. You ain't trying to help this woman. I mean, I don't like that shit. And she stopped. Hmm. You know, fuck that shit.

You ain't gonna fuck my mom. And you sound My mother wasn't perfect She tried to do the best she could with me Guess what You know what she told me Until you're 18 I'm going to keep your little ass alive

And you're going to go Where the fuck I want you to go And when you're 18 If you die, it's on you Hey it worked I'm 58 right Right So mom wasn't that crazy

You understand Yeah So what I'm hearing from you Jimmy is that despite, you know, being very upset with your mom when you were growing up, what I'm really hearing is that you kind of really respect her, you understand her, you sort of understand that she kind of did the best that she could, given the circumstances, she had her own struggles and you kind of don't blame her for that. Sure, that's what a mature person does. I mean, that's the only way to look at it. Well, when are we going to still be angry at this woman?

She's dead. The woman's dead. Some people continue to say angry, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's no point in it. There's no percentage in it. So, Jimmy, I'm kind of curious. You said you kind of got into drugs and kind of criminal activity and stuff as a kid. Like, what's your understanding of how that happened? Well, I mean, I started committing crimes to get money for drugs.

And I don't want to blame it on drugs. I mean, I did it. I own it. But had it not been for drugs, I wouldn't have committed to crimes. So, you know. But I certainly committed to. the crimes. How do you understand, you know, drug? Like, is, like, so like, some people think of, you know, substance use as an addiction, is a disease, is an illness? What do you think about that? The whole disease thing was a bunch of bullshit with the insurance companies and all. I'm very well versed on all that shit. On AA, the history of it and all. That's just a word. That's all it is. It's bullshit. Whether or not it's the disease, who cares? You know, like I went to AA for, AIA helped me tremendously.

I went through the 12 steps in two weeks. You know, people said, oh, that's crazy. Well, if you study history of A.A., he did it in days, and that's a fact. But it did shake, like, like I had a therapist to explain me, therapy is supposed to kind of shake you up. And then you settle down differently, right? That was the best description I've ever heard.

That's a beautiful description. It got me to take a look at things, especially my mother. And I remember when I went to make a amends of my mother. I went to her grave and I cried like a baby and I never hooked ill of my mother ever again. And I was 38 years old. So I was hating all my mother and I was 38 years old. And I was a damn fool. But, you know, I did a fourth step. I did a fifth step. I ran around making amends. You know what I mean? Got my car and just started making amends. To amend is to fix or repair something to the best of your ability. And that's what I did. And because

of these actions. See, a lot of these people, they're just told to go to meetings. And listen to other people's sob stories, I'm sorry. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You can't think your way out of the bad thinking. You have to act your way in the better thinking. And the actions that I took to the 12 steps,

help me even today to be more honest, to not be deceitful. Not that, not that wasn't an honest person, but, you know, but, you know, to get a real fucking view of what's really going on, rather than that dumb shit that was running around in my head, hating all my mother,

hating the world, thinking the world of me a living. It doesn't. Life ain't fair. It's not. It's how you react to it. And it really helped me. I mean, and then I started to become a sponsor, which was the best thing ever because when you're helping somebody else, you ain't thinking about yourself, right?

That was my whole problem. I thought about my fucking self-to-much. I was self-centered, selfish, and helping other people. Really, I really enjoyed doing that. Hmm. Jimmy, I'm just going to kind of give David a chance to kind of chime in for a second. And, you know, just because I notice he's been listening thoughtfully and maybe taking notes. David, did you want to add anything or ask any questions or kind of share any thoughts? No, I mean, I think, you know, one of the interesting things from a complete layperson's perspective is that it's, I didn't know the background of Jimmy until today.

but it's exactly what I imagined it might be that gets him to where he is today at 58 in the sense of I do see Jimmy as a victim myself. And it's not about whether he has to, quote, behave like one. But in hearing about the situation that he grew up in, it makes a lot of sense to me that he kind of behaves in the boisterous way and finds this need to always have this opposite reaction to what he's experiencing and he doesn't feel right unless he does that, that it's like an unpaid debt. I mean, it's other viewers of mine have told me similar stories about how they got to where they are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. And so it just, it makes a lot of

sense. Everything I'm hearing is putting a lot of pieces into place. So, Jay, the only thing I might be a victim of is the 70s. Jimmy, I'm going to, I know, I know you've got, you want to respond to that. I said, okay, if I follow up with David a little bit? Sure. Okay. So, David, when you said this is, you know, the picture that we're kind of uncovering is exactly, in a sense, what you're not surprised to hear? Help me understand, like, what do you mean by that? Why aren't you surprised to hear this?

How do these dots, how do the dots of what we've learned in the past about Jimmy connect with your understanding of him today? Well, I mean, I think it was very interesting that I've experienced Jimmy's homophobic and transphobic language, right? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He says he's just making fun, but he doesn't hate people. That's fine. So I'll use the term, I won't say transphobia and homophobia. His transphobic and homophobic language. And I've experienced it with Jimmy as an adult.

And he revealed today that he was the recipient of that when he was skipping along and being called gay. That makes a lot of sense to me in the sense that he's weaponizing the way he felt. when that was used against him against other people that maybe he wants to go after or get back at. Like, that's one example of why it's fitting together. What do you think about that, Jimmy? I don't know. I mean, David, I certainly am no victim. You know, good and bad things happen to people all the time. And in fact, like, what is good and bad?

What's bad? But the Chinese, what is that conflict as, like opportunity? You know what I mean? If something bad happens, you can go one and two routes, right? You can become a victim, get angry, get depressed, stay that way for years, or you can turn that shit around. Make lemons out of lemons, right? And how do you think, so if someone is kind of a victim, as someone is sad and depressed, how do you think you kind of speaking about what you were sort of mentioning about AA and

becoming a sponsor and helping other people, how do you help someone like that turn their lemons into lemonade? Well, the whole thing with that is, I guess it's a form of selfishness. I mean, if you keep thinking about you and your fucked up situation, and not thinking about a solution, you're stuck in the problem. So you got to get out of yourself somehow. And for me, you've been a sponsor, right? So you've helped people who are in a dark space.

And how did you help them out of that? Just helped them with the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. I helped them take them through the 12 steps. And they got to define it the way they did. And, you know, like they got to experience it the way they did. The more they practiced it, more they experienced. And they got to articulate it any way they wanted to. I didn't tell them to say, I didn't tell, most of these guys would tell you,

when I got sponsors, right, and believe me, these were all well-mitting people, but they would say, call me every day, right? So I'd call them. They'd last about 10 minutes because I was pissed off, I was disgusted. The one thing that comfort me, drugs or alcohol, wasn't available anymore. And they'd lasted about 10 minutes, right? And they would say, go tell that at a meeting. You'll feel better.

I never did. I never felt better talking about my problems all the fucking time. And believe me, I talked about my problems. I never understood. I'm asking how you helped other people. What's that? So I'm hearing that you seem to be talking about when someone else is your sponsor. It sounded like you were a sponsor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you help other people? Oh. What I did was I helped them to open their own eyes. How did you do that? The same way I was helped through the 12 steps. Do a fourth and fifth step with them. To share the way I made amends to discuss that with them.

And then they had to go out and do the work. Like, I was just like a guide. Okay. I was no special person or anything. You know, it's not like I had superhuman powers. Sure. But I had a problem that I got over. And you're the same way, ain't you?

And you have a problem with gaming and you got over it and now you help gamers? Well, then you understand this. Absolutely. Oh, sure. I mean, I understand my experience of it. So my experience of it. And I was kind of curious because, you know, when- I'm sure it's similar.

I think it is too. So let me kind of share with you kind of my experience and you let me know. So, you know, I found that when I was playing video games, like I was really struggling. And, you know, some people would kind of, you know, not really understand that I was struggling. They would sort of blame me. They thought it was weakness, things like that. Some people made fun of me. I got bullied a lot when I was kind of growing up for playing video games and things like that. And the people that helped me sort of, I think, did sort of what you did, which is that, you know, they didn't make fun of me or things like that. They sort of helped me

see things in a new light. They helped me sort of recognize that, you know, while I may be a victim in some ways, that if I'm a victim, if it's really my fault, like, you know, they also empowered me in some ways by sort of helping me understand that like there is some element of this that I control. Well, you know, Doc, you know, sometimes bullies can be good. You know, they can help you to face reality a whole lot quicker. Yeah. So if it's okay with you, Jimmy, what I'm going to actually do is like share some thoughts. And I'm kind of curious what about this will kind of land well with you and what won't.

You know, and just I'm super curious because I, I, I think getting to talk to you, by the way, first of all, bro, this has been an absolute privilege. I really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm having fun. Great. Do you have a doctor, by the way? You have a doctor that you see?

Huh? Got to shrink. Okay. Okay. Because I'm just, you know, noticing that you're smoking cigarettes and vaping and stuff like that. So I just want to make sure that, you know, your health is okay and that you talk to a medical professional about all that stuff. I'm fine. I'm trying to vape more.

Okay. Okay. But it sounds like you were you joking when you said you have a shrink or? No, I said I don't have a shrink. Oh, you don't have a shrink. Do you have like a physical health doctor? Yes. Okay. And they're aware that you're smoking and vaping and stuff like that. Okay. They promote the vaping actually. Okay. Okay. So a harm reduction now. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. So the first thing that I kind of want to point out is, is, is, you know, so like, I think, Jimmy, what I'm really hearing from you is like, you know, you grew up and you learned a couple of really important lessons. So you were kind of like young and carefree and stuff like that, right? And then like you kind of learned that when people behave in a manner that is maybe a little bit unusual is maybe a little bit funny, that like the way that you respond to that, like the way that you are treated, because that's how we learn, right? like we treat other people the way that we were treated, right? So that's how human beings learn

interaction. So, you know, I grew up in Texas where a firm handshake is a great way to greet someone. And so that's sort of what I thought was normal. And what I'm sort of hearing from you is that, you know, when someone's a little bit different, the way that you treat them is just kind of make fun of them, right? Because that's just, that's just what we do. Like that's the way that's what happened to you. That's the way you kind of respond. That's sort of the system of things. Not not always. I don't always make fun of them. I generally,

what can I say? In my personal life, everyone knows me. That one takes some of the things I say seriously. But when there's a time to be serious, they know it. You know, I mean, can I ask you a little bit about your personal life?

What about? So, like, who's in your life right now? Who are the, you know, what are the relationships that matter to you? Well, I live in a very nice rooming house in a very nice area. I run the place. I'm the kitchen Nazi. You can find you $50 if you don't clean up.

Now, I've yet to do it. But this landlord here, she likes renting all these kids and, you know, fucking vegetarians. You know, they're going to save the world of animals, but they won't clean up the kitchen. It's amazing. You know, I point to the floor. So you're having artichokes, onions? It looks like there's a tomato there, too. Yeah.

These kids, it took me two years to whip this place in the shape. Now we got a professional planer. Yeah. So, yeah. So it sounds like you're kind of like a, it sounds like there are kids in the sense of young. There's no kids. Young folks here. And so it sounds like you're kind of, you're kind of imposing some discipline and order.

This is the, this is the international hassle pancakes. We got West Africans. We got Koreans. We got Jamaicans. We got black people. We got, we got everybody here. So, so I'm hearing that, you know, some of the relationships in your life are kind of the people that are in the rooming house. What about, like, you know, significant others, partners, family? Nah, I don't, I don't have a significant other. My, my, I haven't had a steady girlfriend since my ex and I threw the baby on the floor. So, you know, she betrayed me and, uh,

You know, I really don't give a shit a better relationship. Okay. When you say you don't give a shit, do you ever feel lonely? Curiously enough now. That is kind of curious, right? How do you understand that? You think I would. No, I...

Listen, I walked down the street. I have fun. I talk to everybody. I pet every dog I see. I don't know what to tell you. I have fun. I'm a relatively happy person. Mm-hmm.

No, I see that. But how do you think that happened? Because, you know, I'm thinking 58-year-old, you know, maybe. Well, I'll say this for you. LSD has helped me tremendously. How so? This made me happier. Interesting.

Okay. And so when was the last time you were in a relationship? 20 years ago. Okay. I'm going to ask you kind of a weird question. You don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable. but have you ever wondered if you might be gay? No.

I know it sounds kind of weird, but why not? Because I don't think a man's hairy ass is appealing. That's basically as right of an answer as you can give. Okay. And so it does sound like you're sexually affected. I got no problem. I got no problem with homosexuals. I don't.

In fact, I've had a few homosexual friends that were some, Funny motherfuckers. Yeah. So I'm just hearing that you're sexually attracted to women and you're pretty sure about that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Was it okay that I asked you those questions?

Yeah. You know, I hit the sucky-fucky every now and that, you know. What? I hit the sucky-fucky every now and that. I literally- massage place. An Asian massage place. Okay.

Anyway. So. If you must know, what I do for, for six, because that would be the next logical question. I was just, yeah. I suppose it would be the next logical question. Jimmy, I got to say, man, you are a blast to talk to, bro. That's cool.

Yeah. Yeah, so I just want to, you know, so here's the thing. If it's okay with you, I'm going to sort of share some thoughts and a couple of observations. You know, I met you now, what, like about an hour ago, right? And so you got to take all this with a healthy grain of salt, you know. But so I'm going to kind of just start out with like it seems like you kind of grew up and you were taught a particular, you know, here's the rules of the game of life, right? If you're a little bit different, you get made fun of, you know? And that like making fun of people is sort of what happens.

And there's no like, there's no victim complex here. You know, you kind of, it's like, it's like tit for tat. Like if someone makes fun of you, you make fun of them. And it's like, that's just the way of the world. No, I got to top them. You got to top them. Why is that? I don't know.

Makes me feel better. Okay. Yeah. So I'll share a couple of thoughts with you about that in a second. But so I, and then I think that, you know, honestly, like what, what you're, so I'm a psychiatrist and I see a lot of people, you know, who have PTSD and gone through traumatic experiences and stuff like that. And I'm actually, I'm actually.

know this may sound kind of weird, but I do think that there's, you know, people, some people really go too far on the victimhood complex. And as a psychiatrist, sometimes what I find is that, you know, if you play, if you kind of think of yourself as 100% of a victim, that also means that you have no control or agency over life. And that you can be a victim. And at the same time, there are parts of your life that you can control. You know, so I think that there were some. Well, let me say this to you. The biggest thing that I felt like a victim was when my ex used the police in the courts to lie and sat through the baby on the floor. They were all against me. The accusations was what mattered, not the fact whether or not it happened.

They did no investigation. They didn't ask if the child was taken to the hospital. They just charged me, made me spend thousands of dollars for a lawyer. to this day that pisses me off. That's the way the system is. I had detectives tell me you're guilty till you're proven innocent. If it's with a girlfriend or a wife

if they say you did something, boom, you're locked up. No investigation. Yeah. How does that make you feel? It's extremely unfair. It's very unfair. How did it feel to be a victim in that situation?

Not fucking good. Not good. I went down there and screamed at the psychiatrist, and security guards came in and he put his hand up and he talked to me and here's what he my lawyer got the notes from the psychiatrist to the psychiatrist said that I was very affable

right but that I needed some some mental health support right? Yeah no shit my ex just said I threw the fucking baby on the floor and I didn't you know what I mean? But then he does the report on her and he says the distance that Miss Vieth claimed that he threw the child on the floor

became lower and lower as the interview went on. In other words, he called her a liar because she is a fucking liar. She got away with it. He got away with it. Because she said, she said, that's ridiculous.

It pisses me off to this day. And I don't feel like a victim anymore, but I'm still pissed off of it. I'm still going to talk about it. You know, fucking ridiculous. Now the kid's in Harvard. So, and guess what? That kid read books because she saw me reading books.

I always read. Her mother-prior series in their entire fucking life. Okay? You know? Are you proud? The kid calls me when she's 10. Listen to this.

She calls me when she's 10 years old. She says, Daddy. Mommy told me to get in the tub, but I was already in the tub. I'm like, what? She said, Mommy told me to get in the tub, but she was always. in the tub. Is Mommy drinking? She said, yeah, I said, put her on the phone.

I said, she's at the age of reason now. If you want her to hate you, like I fucking hate you, keep fucking drinking. And to her credit, three weeks later, she went no rehab. I believe she's still sober. I'm not sure, but she's been sober a number of years.

So, are you... The kid won't talk to me. The mother poisoned her. The mother, got both her tithes chopped off, right? I found it on Facebook. And I sent her a message. It couldn't happen to a nicer person. I'm skipping down the street. I'm going to have a party. Well, apparently, saying mean things is worse than doing mean things. Yeah, well, I said it was terrible. But her saying I threw the baby on the floor, cost me thousands of dollars. Forever ordering the relationship

I would have with my daughter, it's a lot worse. So you deserve that. You know what I mean? I don't well, fuck. They can cut her head off. You know what I mean? I don't care. Yeah, you sound very, very angry. Well, what the fuck? What would you do the baby on the floor? What the fuck? It never happened. Even my kid when she was five, she's like, Dad, wouldn't I have gotten hurt? Yeah, you'd think these detectives would ask those questions.

No, but they're forced to charge you. That's the way the law works. If it's a girlfriend or a spouse, if they make some allegation like that, you're just sent off the court. No investigation. None. So how would you have liked to be treated? Not without evidence.

Not without evidence. How would you have liked to be treated in that situation? I'd like to be treated fairly. Like some kind of investigation to go on before I'm charged. It's fucking ridiculous. I'm going to put myself in the shoes of someone else. Let's say a cop or your ex-girlfriend or whatever. and I'm going to say for a second that you were treated fairly.

Like what if they thought they were treating you fairly? Even the cops admit it's unfair. I've talked to scores of detectives. They say, look, in that instance, you're guilty to proven innocent. It's fucked up. It's fucked up. No investigation. Like, look, if somebody accused me a murder, they do a fucking investigation, right?

If somebody accused me of burglary, they do a fucking investigation. If somebody accused me of anything, they do an investigation. If somebody accuse me of anything, they do it investigation. But when a woman says a man did something to a kid, there's no fucking investigation. They just charge you. That's wrong. That shit's wrong. Cost me thousands of dollars to disprove a lie.

Fuck here. That's wrong. Believe women. Fuck that. Not without evidence. Fuck that. You're supposed to get mad about shit like that. Yeah, I completely agree.

I think the worst thing a woman can, a man can do is rape a war. And I think the worst thing a woman can do is lie and say that you abused your own child. That's fucked up. A kid made it to Harvard. Looks like I did something. Fuck him, right? Yeah. Doesn't sound like you got a whole lot of credit for it.

What's that? Doesn't sound like you got a whole lot of credit for it. Well, I shouldn't get credit. Look, the kid was smart. Kid liked to read. You know what I mean? And they're all, my whole family's like thinking Carol did something. That kid went to Harvard to spot.

that dumb bitch. He drank a fifth of JD a day for 10 years. That kid was born smart and she liked to read and she would ask me, Daddy, what's your book he said? And I would stop because my father read all the time, but he would get pissed off if you stopped him. So I would stop at the book down. Well, Julia, here's what happened so far. I'll let you know when it ends. Jimmy, I'm going to tell him. I'm going to kind of interrupt you for a second. Is that okay? How does it feel to share this? Good. What feels good about it?

I don't know. I like talking about, what I put it, about my daughter. Because, see, I can tell the fucking truth. My ex has never told the truth. And, you know, apparently, you know, she's gotten away with a lot of this.

You know, not a very bright girl. But, you know. So, I'm going to try to do this one more time. So if it's okay with you, I'm going to share some thoughts about, you know, what I'm seeing. So it kind of starts off.

I'm sort of noticing that when you grew up and, you know, you behaved somewhat differently and when people didn't understand what you were or how you were the way you were, like you're a kid who skips. And then the kids on the corner who like don't understand what that's about so they make fun of you, right?

And then you sort of learned, how to like how to survive in that situation. You also learned that like, hey, you know, this is where humor comes in. Like, you know, you kind of fight fire with fire. And like, I'm sure that early on, before you learned how to how to defend yourself using humor, it probably hurt when they make fun of you. But you sort of learned that like, hey, if you get hurt laying down and playing the victim, there's no point to that. You got to kind of, you know, you got to fight back. And the way that you fight back is you put people in their place. You teach them a lesson. You kind of make fun of it. You laugh with them, you laugh at them, you kind of like, you know, that's the way the world works.

And then I'm sort of hearing that, you know, that, that you had a couple of interesting things happened to you. You kind of got into drugs and stuff like that. You got into crime because of the drugs. I think you've come to acknowledge that your mom wasn't perfect in a lot of ways, but she sort of, in her own flawed way, did the best that she could. And you've come to even defend her and going to be a champion for her when other people were trying to like you know, kind of abuse her or not kind of treat her properly.

Like you weren't going to let her be a victim and you would stand up for someone else who kind of couldn't stand up for themselves. And that's actually despite, you know, getting sent off to like become a tin soldier. And by the way, I think part of the reason that you really, you know, part of the reason that you were telling that story, I think I heard some positivity there.

And I think part of the positivity with that story is that someone actually like paid attention to what you wanted and what you cared about. And the guy was like straight with you and said, hey, if you want to be here, I got your back. And if you don't want to be here. I was internally grateful to that commander or whatever the hell he was. It's weird, right? I didn't want to go there. Yeah. And he had your back.

Right. So like, you know, when I was in St. Gables, we played Valley Forge Military Academy and football. And we beat the shit. Yeah. So, so. I got a humble one. What I'm sort of hearing is that, you know, some, some people like your mom, it sort of felt like she didn't have your back, right?

When she's in the court, judge is like, time to go home. And mom's like, uh-uh. Whereas, like, it's interesting because there are like some people here who sort of have your back, right? And he's like a stranger. But it's, it was really interesting to kind of hear your, and see your emotional expressions and stuff as you were kind of telling that story. You kind of got sent to St. Francis. You actually, you sort of liked it. but you sort of made your mom pay for it, right?

You weren't going to let her off the phone for feeling that she abandoned your kid. Yeah, right? And then you went to St. Gaves, which you really didn't like. But it, I mean, it sounds like in a lot of ways you were sort of adult and unlucky hand in life. But I'm also sort of hearing that you're not going to play the victim because, like, that's not who you are. No. And so this is, you know, shit happens to all kind of people. All kind of negative things happen to people.

Yeah, of course. Of course. And so I think that like you said, you know, the one place where you maybe get to play the victim card or you feel like you were really treated, you know, unfairly was probably the situation with this whole domestic violence kind of thing and stuff like that. But then I'm also kind of hearing that, you know, this AA experience has been really interesting for you because what I'm sort of hearing is that, you know, acknowledging that people have their own experience of alcohol, helping people understand their experience of alcohol. I'm sorry, it's just a bit distracting. And sort of help other people sort of like listening to you and sort of being like kind of compassionate, right? But also they're not saying like, oh, it's like it's not your fault. Alcohol is a disease. Like they're not sort of using that kind of victim language. But what they're sort of doing is recognizing that, hey, you may need a little bit of support.

And I think affable and may need some mental health support, I think is a great, great way to describe you, by the way. To be fair, the whole disease thing, let me just stop your right. To be fair, in the big book, and Bill Wilson wrote it, they did not declare the disease. He called it an illness, a malady. He used other terms. The whole disease thing is a fucking joke. It really is.

I think it's ridiculous. And, you know, like, the problem for me for many years is I would go to AA, they would tell you to go to a meeting. If you got a problem, put it out in the meeting, like it's group therapy. I don't know about you, but constantly talking about my problems,

doesn't make you feel worse. You should feel worse. So I had to like take some actions. I knew I had to do something. I didn't know what the fuck to do. Yeah. But this man helped me. And I was very impressed with the fact

that he fucking spent his personal time with me. And he said, now you go do it. Yeah. No, I'm with you. No, I did. I was afraid, but I did it. So, so I, and I'm with you. I mean, I think we'll kind of address that in a second, too. But, and so what I'm kind of hearing now is that, you know, you're, you're, you kind of got your opinions and you're going to stick to them. And if people want to be snowflakes, they can go screw themselves.

You're going to say what you're going to want to say. And so this is where, you know, I'd actually encourage you to rethink that a little bit. And here's the reason why. Okay. So, like, what I'm hearing is as many situations in your life where you were not, people, didn't listen to you in other situations where they kind of did. Like, so we can talk about, you know, that the, the general or whatever at the tin soldier place. We can think a little bit about your AA sponsor. We can even think about the psychiatrist who sort of said, you know,

sort of had your back and sort of looked at the situation. Well, let me finish. You know what, Doc? I even look at it like, even the Bowies helped me in some sense. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'll get there. Right. So like those, those moments, you know, where people really like, you know, because I'm not hearing that your AA sponsor made fun of you, and I'm not hearing that when you're an AA sponsor to someone else. Oh, he actually did, but he was a funny guy. Okay. He just died, too.

I was real, he died of a hep C. He got treated. I had Hep C too. I got treated and cured. But he had it for like 30 years. And it fucked with his liver so bad that even though he was cured, it killed him. Which was a real shame. Sounds like a real shame.

Yeah. And so I'm also hearing loud and clear that, you know, your experiences have made you the person that you are, which is sort of a survivor. You know, if I had to use one word to describe you. You know, you've been through a lot. The number one will of a human being is to survive, is it not? Yeah. And what I'm also hearing, and I know this may sound kind of weird, but there have been a lot of times where we've sort of talked a little bit about, you know, maybe how you're feeling or, you know, like, for example, like that you don't feel lonely and even. you're a little bit surprised at that.

And in my experience, actually, like, psychologically and neuroscientifically, like, sometimes what happens when people are survivors is parts of their brain actually shut down, because like you were kind of saying, if you didn't shut those parts of the brain down, it'd be like going to an AA meeting, talking about all the negativity, and it just sort of like feels worse and worse and worse. And so sometimes what the brain actually does is numb ourselves to negative emotions. And the last kind of thing that I'd sort of share with you is that, you know, you were talking a little bit about how, like, you don't like to wallow in the negativity, which I get because you're not a victim and all that kind of good stuff. But there was a little bit of time today where you sort of did share, hey, the one place where I think if I, you know, if anyone wanted to call me a victim, it was in this place.

You got pissed off. You started off, you can even go back and watch this. You started off laughing about it. And then towards the end, you really got angry. And then I kind of asked you, like, how does it feel to talk about it? you actually said good. Now, I'm not, I think if we had spent an hour and a half talking about it, you would feel worse at the end. But what I'm sort of noticed, maybe, yeah. You're the one who said that wallowing in the negativity makes you feel generally speaking worse.

But I mean, so this is where, you know, what I'm kind of noticing is like you're someone who had to kind of adapt. You had to survive. You had to learn how to laugh. You had to learn how to. Yeah, you had to, you know, tit for tat. And at the same time, like the cost of. that survival, like, you know, his comment maybe like, you know, to a certain degree,

like kind of toning down your compassion, toning down your empathy, toning down even feelings of loneliness or negative emotions, because you've said time and time and time again, everything to me is funny. Everything to me is funny. I'm a happy guy, right? And so what I'm sort of noticing there is like, that seems really unusual. And so there's a part of me that, you know, based on our conversation, makes me wonder whether there's like stuff that's kind of like talked away, swept under the rug that... I think I just... I have a different personality type.

I have a rare type before. I'm a... I have a rare personality type. You know, doesn't make me special or not, and I just see things differently. I don't know. Yeah, I get that. I mean, I think that you do see things different. I mean, it's better to laugh and cry, Doc, isn't it?

I mean, I mean, I had a therapist. tell me Jimmy about my family. She said there's the Brady bunch and then there's everybody else. So, you know, that helped put it in perspective, you know. So here's what I'd say. I'd say that it's, it's, it's best to laugh and cry. I don't know. I ain't cried in a while. Yeah. Right. And like even then, you kind of said, I haven't cried in a while and then you laughed. What's funny about that? Is it better to laugh? Yeah, so because when you say better to laugh, that's kind of interesting because what that doesn't mean I'm looking to cry. Oh, I think it means you're looking to not cry.

Right. So when you say it's better to laugh than to cry and every time you laugh, what I'm sort of noticing is that you've got a choice there and you're deviating towards laughter instead of crying. No, I wouldn't say that. I think I'm just a happy, good, lucky person. and there's nothing in my life that would make me cry right now. It's true. Nothing.

Like, you know, like, like, I don't know. I mean, it's not an option to cry. There's nothing to cry about. Things are, this is like the best period of my life. I got a little YouTube channel, you know. I mean, I like that. That's going pretty good. Yeah.

I quit one. job for another, got two more dollars and out, you know, I'm doing all right. Yeah, I hear that, man. I don't disagree with you. I'm not saying that you need to sit there and, you know, cry all this. Oh, my God, your life is crap and things like that. What I'm sort of saying is that, you know, I think that you've got maybe one or two things that you could feel rightfully sad about, but I sort of also understand that, you know, playing a victim is not something that you're going to do. When I think a little bit about your daughter and her being at Harvard and I hear you kind of speak with pride and also that she's been poisoned against you.

Like, I think it'd be okay to shed a tear on Matt if you felt like it. Nah, you know, sometimes I get a little sad about it, but I've basically convinced myself that, look, the kid has reached the pinnacle of schools. She's not going to want for anything if she plays her cards right. And up to now, she's played her cards right. So she's not going to need her father that much. And if she doesn't want me in her life, then that's her chance. choice. There's nothing I can do about it. So you used an interesting word. I've gotten a few

hobbies. Look, I started painting. That's great. Jimmy, I just want to point one thing out to you, and then we can, you know, can that discussion. But you said, I've convinced myself. So when someone uses that word, when I think about convincing, what I think about is starting from a place where you believe one thing and working really hard to believe something else. Well, in a sense, yes. Because look, let's face it. That's a sad situation. The kid ain't talking to me.

Yeah. Right. There's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing I can do about it. So hopefully the kid grows the fuck up and, you know, like, apparently it was okay for this woman to falsely accuse me three times. Twice of abusing her, once of abusing. Yeah.

So, Jimmy, can I cut you off again? Is that okay? So here's what I'd say. I'm with you that there's nothing you can do about it. So a lot of times when there's nothing we can do about something like, why cry about it? Right? Because it's not going to help anything. I'm with you. I'm with you. Makes perfect sense, right? So like, why? What's used to crying over spilled milk? Right? With you there. So this is the last thing that I'd leave with you. And you know, you, you don't have to agree with whatever I'm saying. It's really just, I'm just making observations. And you can, you can decide. You know, you're, you're. the expert on you. So the last thing that I'd say is like, you know, I'd encourage you to try, you know, if you're a funny dude, that's fine. You find something funny, that's fine. I'd encourage

you to try to be like a little bit more compassionate towards people who may be confused or struggling or see themselves as victims. I'm not saying that they are victims. I'm not saying that there's an objective right or wrong. But what I've heard from you time and time and time again is that there have been periods in your life where like whether you were a victim or you weren't a victim, you know, whether it was really your fault that you got sent off to these schools or things like that, whether they formed you into being the person that you are and so therefore are good experiences. I'm with you all through that. Even in terms of my own video game addiction, I'm grateful for it because it turned me into the person that I am. And at the same time,

while I'm going through it, if someone sort of shares a kind word with me, even if my head is in the wrong space, I don't understand exactly what's going on. You've kind of said that yourself, you know, when you were kind of like going through this AA stuff and you started to have realizations, that during that dark period before you understand things, that a kind word or even someone sort of like, you know, taking you seriously and saying, hey, I don't think that's really what it is, can actually have like a positive impact. And what I'd encourage you to kind of think about is like, you know, these people that you kind of call snowflakes and stuff like that, you know, I don't know if there's an objective right here or an objective wrong. You may think that there's an

objective, right? I think that it's possible that your decisions are also, your judgments are also emotional and then, you know, no amount of truth is going to change your mind. What I'm saying is just like from a human perspective, even if you can think they're ridiculous, can you be kind to them too? Oh, absolutely. One of, one of the quotes in the book of Alcoholics Anonymous says, those we dislike, you practice justice and courtesy. So, I mean, You got to be fair with people and you got to be civil. You know, you got to try to be civil with them. You know, I mean, you really should fight fire with water, you know.

Quite often I got to fight fire with fire. Yeah, so what do you think about that, bro? I get myself into some situations. Yeah. So, you know, just one last thought. And then, you know, David can talk or you can talk. I'm kind of done with my spiel. But, you know, just like you said, like it sounds like a lot of times you fight.

fire with fire and the words came out of your mouth. Like sometimes, maybe you should think about using water from time to time, bro. Oh, yeah. Sometimes water doesn't make sense when you're dealing with somebody who's irrational and unreasonable. No. Well, I, look, I'm not saying that fire isn't appealing. But I'd even argue that the more irrational someone is, the more water helps rather than fire. I don't know if they're willing to listen.

Yep. Yeah, I think it's tricky, but, you know, I'm hearing that maybe you're rethinking things a little bit, but, you know, you came to use fire for a reason, right? Because the water wasn't working well. And at the same time, maybe there's some exploration to have there. I think with what I went through in my life, I've turned there pretty goddamn good. And I'm relatively happy. So, you know. Yeah.

I have no problem with my life. I think you've done a good... I'm about to say something that make you... And let me know if this is like a victim complex kind of thing. But I would say, given the hand of cards that you've been dealt, you played a really good game of poker. And maybe. Believe me, I fucked up along the way.

Yeah. Learn more from fuck-ups than any kind of success, trust you. Absolutely, man. I hear you. Failure is overrated. Underrated. Hey, Jimmy, can I ask a quick question, Jimmy? You know, when you and I started kind of, I don't know about corresponding, but when you started calling in, there was a different sort of anger that I feel like in our interactions has dissipated over time, where you and I have even communicated privately by email.

And I feel like it's a different Jimmy than from maybe a couple years ago. Is that about something has changed for you over the last couple years, or is that about your relationship with me specifically? I would say LSD has helped me. I honestly believe that it's made me happier. Now, I get in arguments with these people online. They say, oh, it taught me this, it taught me that. LSD, it's a drug. It ain't teaching your shit.

But it does seem to make me happier. It does seem to make me want to take risks. I was afraid to start the YouTube channel that I got. I was unconfited about it. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do that. Fuck it. I just did it.

it. I don't even know how to do this shit. You guys help me, right? So, when I see somebody that doesn't have to do something, I'm willing to help them. That's how it should work, right? So you just have to have the will to do something, you know, necessarily have to understand it. Not how to do it, you just move towards it, right? That's what I'm doing. Words to live by. Wow. And Jimmy, I'm just curious, and you don't, if you don't want to answer that this, obviously you don't have to. Do you own firearms? No. I'm a felon. I can't.

Okay. Okay. I wouldn't own one anyway. I have no problem with people to do. I have no need for a gun. Oh, is that right? Yeah, I've, you know, I can defend myself, but some people, it's their right. They have a right to do it. I lost that right by being convicted. Yeah. Well. Well, Jimmy, listen, you, you've, you've really.

really said at all. I mean, I don't know about you, Dr. Kay, but this has been incredibly illuminating to me. Same. I mean, I really appreciated, you know, Jimmy's honesty and his perspective and his kohannis for coming on and kind of maybe stepping a touch outside of his conference. I had fun, fellas. Yeah. I hear you, man. Yeah, maybe that's my, oh, sorry, Dr. Kay. No, good. I was just going to say, like, Jimmy, you got to talk to your doc about you know, all the stuff you're using, bro. Okay. Yeah, that was actually, that was actually going to be my question.

No, but Jimmy, what I was curious is during this hour and a half, I think it's been consistent, cool, whip cigarettes and vaping the entire time. Is this all day while you're up, or are you maybe, like, understandably a little nervous about this conversation, so you're doing it, or is that all day? Well, listen, whip it gods were good to me. They just delivered 600, 15 minutes before the streamside. No, but what I'm asking, Jimmy, is from the time you wake up until you go to sleep, are you consuming the whole time? No, no, no, no.

You're not. I do hit these whippets a little hard. I mean, you know, but not in the morning or not, you know. Okay. And then absolute last thing, just because A.A. was such a prevalent thing. Are you sober now from the standpoint of alcohol? No, but I don't drink as much. I was knocking down two bottles of that whiskey a week.

I've had that for 10 days. The bottle behind you. Yeah. So I'll drink three strong beers, nine or 10% a night. Of course, of five hours. I'm not driving. I'm doing a stream. David, I'm kind of curious.

What pushes you to ask questions to fill a, about his, sorry, Jimmy, about how much substances he's using? Well, I'm curious in my interactions with him, how influenced by substance use they might be, because I'm hearing, you know, I'm getting an email or hearing a voicemail. And my instinct is it would help me maybe to frame the context a little bit if I know maybe what a state of mind is. That's my kind of curiosity about it. Yeah.

Well, okay. Jimmy, any questions from your end? Yeah. I had a great time. Thanks, fellas. All right. Thank you very much. Let's do this again in a year. Let's do this again. Sure. David, you want to go ahead and wrap up?

Yeah, well, listen, I appreciate everybody's time, Jimmy. You know, you and I have known each other a couple years now in some sense, and this has really been informative for me. I feel like I better understand you now. And, you know, Dr. Kay, I really appreciate you lending your expertise and, you know, leading us through this. I feel like I've learned a lot. Yeah. Well, I mean, let me say this, David.

My endgame here with you, right, is to get you to debate the hard bastard. And one day, you're going to do it. Sorry, who the hot bastard? The hard bastard. Okay. All right. Well, let's talk about that. in this new spirit of openness and exploration and honesty.

Sounds great. Hard bastard. Hard bastard is a YouTuber that eviscerates you, David, every night he streams. In fact, he'll be on tonight doing a segment on you. Okay. It's absolutely hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious, David. All right, very good.

All right. Okay, thanks so much, guys. Dr. Kay, really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks a lot for the opportunity. Jimmy, it was nice to meet you, man. And David, take care. Thanks for setting this up. All right, David, thanks for setting you.

All right. We'll talk to everybody soon. Now, that was something else. Chat. What on earth? Okay. My favorite quotes, you got to fight fire with fire

and beat them at their own game. Sometimes fire doesn't work. You got to use water. Jimmy was fantastic, man. You know, it's so interesting because I think a lot of times we, oh, maybe I need to go this way. Oh, my God. So I think a lot of times, man, I,

I don't even, what did you all think, chat? Like people are saying, like it was, I mean, he was, he was quite the character. And it's really interesting because I, you know, I think it's like, I don't know if you all kind of caught this, but at the very beginning, like, it was really hard to get him to talk about himself. It's like any personal question you ask him becomes about propaganda and so, like, the media and like, it becomes like an externalized issue. And then once you start to like actually get him talking, like,

you know, I think he's someone that really views the world is like, you know, he's had to, I want you all to just think about this for a second. So, so, so. sometimes when people have very strong views, they're incredibly rigid, right? Like, they're like super rigid with their thinking. And it's good. Once you make an emotional judgment, no nuclear bomb of truth will change your mind. So sometimes I'll talk to people who have very, very strong and rigid views. And, you know, it's not really my place to say what's logical or illogical.

It's not, you know. But I think what's really interesting is that if you listen to his life, like my experience, people, I don't really know 100% with him, but generally speaking, when there are people who grow up in really difficult circumstances, the need to adapt and survive has to come with a ton of rigidity. Right. Like you got to wear full plate armor in those kinds of situations. Like going to a court after being at a school and then like graduating from the school

and wanting to go home and having your mom sit there and say he can't come home. Like you got to build pretty big walls. and we can kind of like note, and I shared this with him. I mean, I don't usually, not usually. I almost never talk about people when they're not on stream, but I feel it's okay because he was just there, and I told it to his face. But it's kind of interesting, right?

Because he has a peculiar absence of like certain emotions. And what I've seen a lot in people who have traumatic upbringings, especially men, is that the most accessible emotion is like anger. And we can kind of see that. And it's kind of interesting to hear him sort of talk about, you know, how angry he was and stuff like that. And then underneath that, so I kind of think about anger as an umbrella emotion, which means that it's the emotion that covers all other emotions. But, you know, I have to imagine, I mean, I don't really know, but like, you know, if I had to put myself in his shoes and, you know, I did something right in terms of raising my daughter and she wound up at Harvard of all places in spite of all of her circumstances, I imagine I would feel pride. I imagine I would feel shame.

I imagine I would feel angry at her for like not maintaining a relationship with me and allowing herself to be poisoned. And then I imagine that in addition to feeling angry with her, I would work really hard to devalue those feelings within myself. Right? So I would try to convince myself that I wasn't angry with her because that's a crappy thing to do.

And we want the best for her. And I don't really deserve it. And it's not really her fault. that kind of stuff, right? Like, and that's just kind of, you know, I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I think it was just really eye-opening to talk to him. And I can sort of see now where a lot of like rigid beliefs sort of come from. And what I've noticed with people who are very like politically charged and also like don't express a whole lot of compassion is that there is an immense amount of rigidity that these people oftentimes, like so I remember back in 2016,

So when Trump first won the election, so I was at, you know, I was training at Harvard Medical School at the time. And like, I was in this like group therapy education thing. So I was like in a classroom with like a bunch of my colleagues and like psychologists and stuff like that, PhD students. And so people were talking about the election and how it made them feel. And so I sort of shared this idea. I was like, you know, everyone's like, I don't understand how anyone could vote for Trump. he's like so despicable and they kind of point out like all the the worst things in their mind about Trump. And so I sort of said, because I'm from Texas, right?

So I've like talked to some of these people. And I sort of said like, you know, I don't think people are voting for him because of those things. I think y'all are missing like a big part of what he's appealing to. And what Trump is really appealing to is that like there are a lot of people who have been growing increasingly disenfranchised. They're getting squeezed. Their life is getting worse. and like year after year, all they see is like the sort of

the easy life of the 80s and 90s, kind of like decaying towards 2016. You know, your house is in disrepair. You've got like a truck on cinder blocks in your front yard. You know, you can't afford health care and all that kind of stuff. And so what he was is like a great big screw you to the system. And I just don't think that like people in the academic, setting, like, I don't think they've spent time in, like, you know, rural Ohio or rural Texas,

so they can't fathom what these people go through. And what I found time and time and time again is that, you know, people who are very, like, rigid politically and also, like, Trump kind of supporters, is that their lives are, like, incredibly hard. And I don't quite understand. I'm not, I don't mean to say, I think it's actually, like, really kind of unfair to say that if your life sucks, like, that's why you support Trump. Like, people have their beliefs for a reason, and we should respect that instead of, you know, assigning some kind of weird psychological reason. But it's just a pattern that I've noticed that when people have really, really hard lives, you know, sometimes it really galvanizes them and it sort of like really forms, they have to form really rigid thinking almost to sort of survive. How do you

make sense of a world where each life, each time, like the world gets, like each year that goes by, the world gets a little bit harder and a little bit harder and a little bit harder and a little bit harder. And so I think I don't you know it's something worth exploring. It's just a pattern that I've seen. And I think it's interesting because David even said he was like, I'm not surprised to hear this story, which makes you think, right? Why is not even David surprised to hear this story? I mean, he has no training in psychology. And I don't think it's necessarily a psychological thing. I think sometimes our political beliefs have a lot to do with our upbringing, which sort of makes sense, right? I think we see this a lot with like Dumers and incels and stuff like that too. Like the way that that you believe that the world works is heavily influenced by the way that your brain interprets the world works. And the really tricky thing there is that your experiences are 100% real, but your conclusions and the abstractions that you draw from the world are not 100% real. And this is the really tricky thing is that when you talk with someone who believes their abstractions about the world are 100% real, what you're really running up against is their

experience which is absolutely 100% real. So if I asked out three girls and I saw the three girls that I asked out ended up dating football players, that experience can form a view of the world that is like very, very rigid. And we can't blame that person for believing that because like, you know, we all form beliefs about the world based on our experiences. It's literally how our brain is designed. It's how we learn how to walk. It's why kids drop things on the floor when they're eating, right? They're like learning how gravity works. And based on your individual experience, you draw conclusions about, okay, this is how gravity works. So, you know, I'm actually pretty hopeful. I think Jimmy, I actually feel really hopeful for him in some ways. I think, I don't know if you guys caught this,

but he was making a lot of contradictory statements towards the end. You know, just like a lot of, like, you know, you got to fight, fight. Like the whole time is like when someone wrongs you, you can't, it's not just payback. It's like you got to overdo it. Like, If you fight, like, you want to, you know, toss a match, my way, I'm going to toss, you know, a torch your way. And so towards the end, some of that stuff. And I think he's really had some experiences where, like, you know, hopefully he's one step closer to being compassionate and understanding. And it sort of makes sense why he makes fun of people, right? Because that's sort of like what happened.

Like even his AA sponsor made fun of him. He was a funny guy. So that's just, you know, it means a different thing. So Aral is saying he was more open-minded than I. expected. So this is my experience. This is really important. So I think most human beings are pretty open-minded. The only challenge is that when you engage with them about a rigid thing and you try to argue with them, they're not open-minded. Someone being more open-minded than you expected has a lot to do with the way that I approach him. So when you approach someone with a closed mind,

they are going to be closed-minded. When you approach someone with an open-minded, you approach someone with an mind, they're more likely to be open-minded. And so, like, I see this a lot with especially political discussions and even fall victim to it myself, where, like, sometimes if I have a belief and I start off, like, pretending to be open-minded by asking questions and listening to them, like, you can notice this thought process in your head where you can, like, ask a question, but you don't really care what they say. You're not really listening to what they say. You've already formed your own conclusion, and you're just waiting for them to stop talking so that you can point out how they're wrong.

that person is going to be closed-minded because you're approaching them in a closed-minded way. Right? It's sort of like, I'm going to trap you with my questions. And what do you think about this? I'm just using that as a facade to pretend I'm open-minded. And therefore, as soon as you're done talking, I'm going to tell you how you're wrong. If that's the way that you approach people, they're going to be closed-minded because you're being closed-minded. So, and this is, we've seen this time and time and time. again on stream, right? Like, we kind of joke that we haven't had a real incel on stream. And like, why is that? It's because, you know, the, you know, the fire breathing, angry in cells that we

see on the internet, when you actually approach them with, like, compassion and an open mind, like, they all turn out to be relatively recent, decent people. And like, well, I mean, I don't know about all, but, you know, we've got a sample size of, like, two or three or whatever. You know, and that's been my experience. So in terms of y'all, if you guys, you know, have political beliefs that you disagree with or to someone who's super rigid, even like parents who are narcissistic, trying to understand them can go a really long way. Like, and sort of doing your best to sort of like recognize that this is a human being who believes what they believe for a reason.

They're not stupid. And this is the other thing that happens with Trump supporters, right? It's like, people call them stupid. Like, that's not going to work. All you're going to do is galvanize their beliefs, cause them to dig their heels in more, and double down on what they believe. So, you know, I've had some, you know, some interactions with folks who are like anti-vax and then, like, you know, got sick. And then, you know, telling them, hey, this is dumb.

You should have, you know, this is your fault. You deserve this is not an effective strategy. That actually causes them to double down. And sort of saying, you know, treating them like treating human beings who are sick with compassion is the right move. Irrespective of what their, you know, vaccine beliefs are. to feel frustrated, you're allowed to think that it's incorrect for that they believe that way, but like, I think they still deserve your compassion, right? I told you so is not a winning strategy to like open people's minds up.