HealthyGamerGG - Ex-Cult Member Opens Up To Psychiatrist

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

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Welcome, buddy. Hey, my son here. And what's your name? What do you go by? You can call me Zorian. Zorian, okay. Welcome, Zorian. And so I didn't realize this until I, you know, hit the go live button on stream. But apparently we're going to be your, you were a member of a cult before?

Yes, I was a cultist. Okay. Oh, a cultist. So that sounds like a class. It makes it sounds fair, right? Yeah. And people are curious, you're a cultist of our cult or a different cult? Different cult.

Different cult. Okay. So maybe we can convert you by the end. Yeah. I was brainwashed. I was brainwashed. Oh, okay. That's the kind of cult.

So is that what you want to talk about today or you want to talk about something else? Yes. So we can talk about that. And I was thinking maybe we can talk about the psychological, the heart. harm it did to me, I suppose, like the insecurities I have because I grew up in that environment or what happened after leaving. Yeah, I, Zorian, I would love to hear about that. And if there's some way that, that, you know, we can support you with some of that stuff,

I'd really love to try. So why don't we start with, you know, kind of like how you joined? Or actually, let's start with like where you grew up and stuff, like, you know. Okay. So here's how I joined. I was born. That's how I joined. Okay. So tell us a little bit about, you know, what growing up was like. Third generation. Third. Okay. In the cult. Wow. Like my parents were already in the cult when I joined.

Okay. When you were born. Sure. You can call it that if you want. And do you feel comfortable telling us like what the cult was or is that something you want to, you know, we don't want to do anything that will get you in trouble or anything like that. It's not a big deal. Don't worry. Okay. Yeah. So what, can you do? tell us about what growing up was like in the cult? Yes. So you asked earlier what the cult was about. Did you? Sure. So it was a sex cult.

Okay. The leader was a pedophile. Okay. Oh, God. Yes. What does that mean it was a sex cult? Like what is the... Okay, so the cult had a tradition of free sex.

Okay. And the idea was, there was a tradition called Flirty Fishing, where women would give, like, they would prostitute themselves to gain converts. To gain comforts? Converts. To converts. Okay. Conversions, yeah. Yeah.

And like, so is this like an organization or what? Like, how does that? Yes. It's called the family international. The family. of God. Have you heard of it? No, but boy, does that sound like a cult, dude? The family

internet. Look it up on Wikipedia. Look it up. Sometimes. So can you tell us, Zorian, a little bit about, like, you know, what, tell us maybe a little bit about your parents and what it was like living with them growing up? Sure. So I had kind of a unique situation, even inside the cult, because my parents were missionaries for the

Okay. What they would do is they would go around from city to city proselytizing. Okay. Yeah. As a result, life growing up was we would resettle every 18 to 24 months. Okay. New house, new home, new neighborhood, a new city, different country, et cetera. And how would they proselytize?

So we would go out. I see if I can remember exactly. So we would get people interested about the cold, like maybe try to shame them or guilt trip them into their negative habits. And then we would tell them about Jesus, right? And we would get them to say a prayer. And then we would, like, my parents, how they did it was, from what I recall vaguely, They did a sales pitch on the cult, I think. Okay.

And just getting people to join. That was the idea. So Zorian, can we actually take a step back from the cult for a minute? And like just what was it like growing up for you? Like, were you in school and like siblings, friends? Yes. So I was I was homeschooled a lot. Okay.

So. And social interaction was limited. For example, I had no access to books. No access, like, there was heavy censorship. No books, no internet, no music, except music designed by the cult, no magazines, nothing. Nothing that could harm the image in our heads of the cult. And what was the image? Clue was in.

What was the image that you grew up with of the cult? So I felt like we were the chosen ones. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, sure. So let's see. So the cult was rife with conspiracy theories. Like there was this idea that the Illuminati was pulling the world strings

and that the system, anything outside the cult, was evil. Right? to kind of scare us from trying to access outside information. Okay. And they try to instill a sense of superiority in us, try and push non-believers away so that we wouldn't get contaminated. That's my analysis. Yeah.

And so if your parents moved to a new city, like, I'm curious, when you're like eight years old and you don't go to school and you're not given access, to books or the internet, like literally, how would you spend your day? Like, what were... So that's interesting. When I was, so... Let's be a little bit more into details. So I went to a regular school, second grade and third grade.

Okay. And then from fourth grade up, my parents decided to homeschool me completely because I don't know what the reading was. Actually, I think I begged them to homeschool me. Maybe that was my fault. Do you remember how you felt when you begged them? Yes. So I was constantly bullied. Okay.

And so I had, okay. So the reason why I begged them to homeschool me was because before second grade, they were already homeschooling. I see. Oh, so they were homeschooling you, then you went to second grade. And do you have a sense of why you got bullied? A lot of times people don't remember. No.

I think it was, I had a sense of being holier than you. Okay. So it was sort of like a superiority kind of thing that was baked into you. Yes. And then, yeah, so once you started getting homeschooled, then what was that, what were your days like? But receive classes in the morning, I guess. Oh, yeah. So there was this thing, this horrible, horrible tradition.

So I hate it. Absolutely. called devotionals, which is like mandated brainwashing, routine activities, shall we call it? Okay. So my parents would gather us children for, here, you could say, you could call it. We would read the Bible. We would read materials like written or published by the cult. would listen to music, we would pray, we would do stuff like that.

We'd memorize Bible verses, that kind of stuff. Okay. We'd listen to music designed by the cult. And how long would those devotionals last? Anywhere for one to two hours. Okay. So you would do that every day. And so it sounds like you're also learning like mathematics and how to read and things like that?

Yes, yes. And so, I, It's kind of an unusual circumstance because I was, I guess, these things from a early early age. Like my parents believed in education, which was abnormal for the cult. So I was taught to read and write in two languages from the age of two. I was taught early math. I was taught geography. I was taught stuff from a very early age.

Okay. Yeah. And then what were things like as you grew a little bit older, like, let's say, 12, 13, 15, 17. So actually, before we go into the adolescent period, I would also, my parents would take me pro zealotizing. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah, I have to pronounce that. But I have this vivid memory of me going like up to people.

and converting them to the cult. How would you do that? I was like six or seven years old. And they basically used my cuteness. Because children are cute, right? You're more likely to give a child a chance. Yeah, sure. Than an adult.

Yep. Right? So they would use me as a tool sometimes to convert people. And I had a little speech memorized. I would do. And people would fall for it. It was. Do you remember what the speech was or like pieces of it?

Let me see. You know, So, you don't have to share anything that you don't feel comfortable with. It's just I'm so curious about, you know, what do you teach a seven-year-old to say to convert people to your? So the facade of what? seemed very harmless, right? Even to outsiders. I would basically pray with them, and I would recite a prayer,

and I would convince people to say a prayer with me. Got it. And I don't remember the exact words, but it was something like, Jesus coming to my heart, forgive me for my sins, that kind of shit. Okay. And then, wow, okay. And then maybe what my parents would take over and explain stuff I couldn't comprehend yet.

Okay. What country were you in if you don't mind me asking? I think so at the time of this anecdote, I think I was in Peru. Okay. All right. And so, you know, what happened as you kind of grew up and hit adolescence? What was that period of your life like? Okay. So let's see. I was very, very convinced that I wanted to spend the rest of my life in the sculpt. Okay. We were taught that we were the chosen ones.

And there were all sorts of wacky things going on, for example. A lot of the lore was based on... Are you familiar with the Bible? Yeah. There's a book at the end called Revelations. Yeah. Very familiar with it. A lot of the stuff came from that chapter or that book in the book.

Bible. It was very, we were, our group was the chosen one and there was going to be a period of seven years before the end of the world as we know and the anti-trice was going to take over from like the luminario and whatever bullshit they were experienced and our group would have special powers to attack or defend against like the Antichrist or whoever was on the top, right? And there were like doomsday prophecies and that we were living, like one of the phrases that was most commonly repeated was we are living in the times of the end. Yeah, wow, okay.

So things I've heard from. So sometimes that, you know, I'll ask people a little bit about growing up in their adolescence and things like that. and I'm kind of noticing that I don't know it's interesting it seems like sometimes when I ask you questions about time it's like hard for you to put together like sort of a timeline

and I mean is that I'm not trying to you know shame you or anything it's just an interesting observation that I'm wondering if actually like your experience of growing up was not like marked by like landmarks of change. It seems to like,

it feels to me like it all kind of blurs together. Yes. Right. And it's also the fact that I've been trying to forget most of these things for the last 10 years. Sure. Okay. Like after,

I left at the age of 18. I felt like I lived at the age. And how did that happen? My parents, I love them deeply. They, this policy that after you're 18, you can do whatever the fuck you want, right?

Okay. So at close around the age of 17, I was already getting fed up with the bullshit. What is that? What bullshit is that? I was starting to gain awareness that I was being emotionally manipulated. And how are you being emotionally manipulated? So some of the stuff, for example, I was forced to do chores based on the idea that this is going to sound completely. really stupid and completely out of field.

But it was a kind of God is watching you and taking notes. Right? So if you fail to do your chores, he's going to take that as a sign of rebellion or that maybe you can't go into heaven or that kind of stuff. That you're supposed to honor your parents

or honor your mother and father, that kind of stuff. And it was basically, yeah, it was coercion. And why do you think that that sounds stupid? Good question. I have no idea. Okay. So let me ask you. Oh, no, no, no. Okay. I remember now. So it sounds a bit. It smells a bit like entitlement, you know. Like I could have, I suppose. No, no. It's like first world cold life.

Okay. You know, like, worse things could have happened to me than being coerced to do my choice, right? Okay. Like, I could have been coerced into child prostitution, for example, which did not happen to me, thank God. Yeah, so it's interesting. I'm hearing some, you know, a couple of things here. So one is like, I wonder if you say it sounds stupid because I don't think it doesn't sound stupid to me at all. It sounds like, you know, you were in a cult.

So, of course, you're going to be, like, forced to do things that are. emotionally like you know based on emotional manipulative yeah but it sounds like a kind of an odd thing to complain about like it's not such a big deal right you're forced to do chores so what yeah yeah so i i feel like most people would say gain some perspective kid yeah so i it gets me to my question is do you feel stupid okay and when you say most people would say gain some perspective kid like what you know that that sounds why do you think people would say that oh because i look at myself from the outside and I try to, try to see things objectively, I guess. Yeah.

So has, when you've shared this stuff with people on the outside, has anyone told you that I've never shared it with anyone? Oh. Oh. Not this specific detail. I haven't shared it. No. Okay.

And because I, you know, I know this is going to sound kind of weird, sorry. But I think that your attempts to be objective are actually the most subjective thing that you do. Completely. You're right. You know? And it's interesting because when you when you talk, when you think about like I want to just like notice and I. Okay.

So it's not objectivity. It's subjectivity from a second point of view. Yep. So I think that's the view with which you judge yourself. It's you judging yourself on the outside. Because I don't think that like at least, I mean, I could be wrong here and I'm not really paying attention to Twitch chat. But like at least I'm sort of feeling very, very strongly that like I don't fault you for anything that happened. But what I'm detecting from you is that like maybe you beat yourself up a little bit for like falling for their emotional manipulation.

And like who are you to complain because, you know, other people in the cult got child prostitution and you got out early and your parents taught you two languages. So like who are you to complain? Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like I fault myself or somehow blame myself for being part of the cult. Yeah. I wasting my time, basically. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. What do you think? No. Okay. And here's why. Here's my

explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong. So after the cult, when I left, I felt a grave sense of loss. Most of my life or my entire life had been stolen from me. Yeah. And I felt very, very bitter, I suppose, you could say. And when did you start to feel like it had been stolen from you? Right after I left. Okay. Probably, okay. Probably not the exact same day I left.

But in the next two years. And so, I mean, it sounds like you left at 18, so you are unhappy with, like, something about needing to do chores and being guilted. How did you make the decision to leave? I don't know. I suppose I just didn't like being. course. I told when I was on my 18th birthday, I went to my pastor and I told them I'm an atheist. And I went to my parents and I told them, I'm an atheist. They accepted it.

Really? Yes. What did they say? My dad was like, you're 18, so do whatever the fuck you want. Did he use the word fuck there? Like, was he upset? Probably not. No, he wasn't upset. How do you understand that? But here's the thing. I later discovered that my parents had actually left the cult when I was 15. They were just continuing with the culture, I guess, of child rearing after they left. Like they dumped all the books, all the cultish material aside when I was 15, three years earlier. But they continued to use the same manipulative techniques they had learned from the cult.

interesting how do you understand so i suppose that played a role and they're accepting my leaving the cult yeah because i mean it's it's strange right when i think about you know life i mean like multi-generation cults like and a kid comes out at 18 and says i'm leaving i imagine based on you know i don't really have any experience with cults but yes but you've read the stories right yeah so i i'd imagine that your parents would like you know freak out i've certainly you know worked with people who have had like very religious upbringings and they sort of tell their parents, hey, like, you know, I'm not really into this. And then their parents will like flip out, will ostracize them, will like, you know, like,

don't you understand what you're doing to us and to everyone around you? Like, it's such a bit like, you know, and I'm, it's kind of weird that your parents were sort of okay with it. I consider myself lucky in the extreme. Yes. Yeah. So you consider yourself lucky, but like, what do you think about them tossing out the books, but still continuing to do the.

emotional manipulation. Wow. I mean, my parents are a little bit, feel like they're simpletons. What does that mean? Like, the reason for leaving the cult was dumb. What was their reason for leaving the cult? I was, they received the sign from God. Did you believe it?

And what was their sign from God? The sign from God was my younger sister got sick to the point where she was about that. Oh, sure. Of course. Yeah. And why do you think? My younger sister got really, really fucking sick.

And the cult had this tradition. Like people inside the cult were taught that if anything negative happens to you, it happens for a reason, right? That God is punishing you in some way. Right?

If you got a cold, God would be punishing. you had to pray and seek his guidance. Right? And I think that is where my mom got the idea that she should leave the cult because my sister was so fucking sick. Hmm. Interesting. And you think that that's a stupid reason?

Yeah. Okay. How do you feel about your parents? I also think they're dumb. Sure. Are you angry with them? So I was angry with them. in first four years, and then I forgave them.

What were you angry with them for? For having raised me in a cult. That's a damn good answer. Well said. And then how did you find the ability to forgive them? I don't know. The mental process, the experience that led me to forgive them. So I think

I had an experience where I started to see evidence that my hate was ruining my life. Can you help us understand that? Okay, so I was extremely bitter and extremely angry about everything that happened inside the cult. And I felt like 18 years of my life had been wasted. I lost most of the opportunities to learn things. And, like, most of it had been coerced. Like, it was not my fault. And I remember going on a date with a chick.

She noticed that I was very hateful inside. And I think the sign of it was I attacked an indigenous person that was trying to sell candy to me on the street. and I attacked them and I told them to go kill themselves my date was like no you can't do that this stuff

we're done the date is over right and then I went back to my place I spent the entire night in reflection and then I came to realize my conclusion was my hate is ruining my life

so I did a 180 in the first thing things I did, forgive my parents. I told my parents I forgave them. And then I tried, I started, I started trying altruism or helping people with no strings attached, provided they didn't ask for my help. Okay. And what was your experience of that? Of altruism? He became a pretty strong held belief until like a few days ago. What happened a few days ago? Okay, someone...

So this ego, construal. This ego, what? Construal. What does that mean? So a construe is a symbol, right? Like a phrase. Okay. And it represents your ego.

Okay. And you talk about this all the time, right? ego when ego conflicts with emotions ego wins and when emotions conflict with logic emotions win right okay sure

and this altruism thing of helping people with no strengths attached was my ego and it was it was ruining my life how so I was giving until I had nothing to get a few weeks ago

I started to hit like rock bottom rock bottom because I started sleeping on the floor because I just I couldn't help myself but just help people I guess so what does that have to do with sleeping on the floor well sleeping on the floor is uncomfortable I guess right I have I have no I don't have enough money to buy myself a mattress okay and then but I sort of settle into it I start to feel comfortable or what's what's not comfortable content I have learned contentment, shall we say. Do you find that you're more content, like the more you kind of deprive yourself of stuff?

Like, does it feel like perversely good to like help people to the point where you don't have enough money to buy a mattress? Yes. Or not enough money to pay the bills or stuff like that. And then a friend recently argued me out of that value or that, you know, ego control. Like he made a large, he presented a logical argument that my ego construed was unethical. That by helping people,

until I have nothing to give, I'm actually helping bad people gain power. Because I'm losing power by helping others. Interesting. So, not the person that you're helping. but some other, the more, the less power you have. Like, if I, yes, if I start to help to a point where I'm losing power,

then I'm not, I'm, I'm not making as much as of an impact as I possibly could. Sure, sure. Right? Yeah. And he argued it was unethical. And so, I mean, you're sort of saying that a logical argument kind of brought you out of this. So what's going on with your ego? Yeah, so I have a...

That's interesting. That's interesting. I have an ego that says, I must have a logical explanation for everything I do. Okay. So this is how logic jumps emotion. Okay. In my case, because it's my ego.

How do you feel about being so altruistic? That feels good. I guess. But no, that's a relative. How do I feel about being so altruistic? That's a good question. I'm not sure. Zorian, do you feel stupid for being so altruistic?

Hmm, yes. Yes, I beat myself up for it. Yep. We noticing a theme here? I beat myself up for things. Yes, definitely. Yeah, absolutely, right? And I know where it comes from.

I can talk about it. I know you do, so tell me. So, I am afraid of opportunity cost. Okay. Opportunity cost drives terror to me. Yep. I think that makes a lot. Yeah.

And can you see where that comes from? Sure. What's your guess? Um, do you, you're sure you want me to, answer first. Okay, okay. I was making, I was making you guys, but sure. I'm happy to, but I think that we'll learn more from you than we will from me.

Okay, fair enough. You're absolutely right. This is an education session. Hold on. Pause for a second, Zorian. Let's think about what's happening right now. I'm happy to give you an answer. It makes a lot of sense to me that you're terrified of opportunity cost.

And I'm happy to share. what I think about that. But I just want to make sure that it felt like you've never asked me before. Like we've been talking about a lot of stuff. This is the first time that you're like asking me about something. So I almost feel like it's a test of sorts. And I'm happy to take the test and pass or fail. No, no, it's not a test.

I'm not a test. I have a habit of asking people to make an educated guess about things because I'm a teacher. Okay. Do you want to teach me? I can guess. No. Okay. Okay. My fear of opportunity cost comes from my parents moving around a lot when I was a kid. How so?

When I was very, very young, let's say nine to ten years old, I would go out into the neighborhood and make friends with kids. And I would grow kind of attached to the neighborhood. and then my parents would move and that was unpleasant it meant losing my friends forever that was like irreversible and bad

so because this happened so often I started to pay attention to any sign that we might be moving that my parents could be planning a move and when that happened And I felt afraid.

Okay. Yeah. So what I would say, Zorian, can I share my answer? Sure. So I think it's similar. But I think that when you say you're terrified of opportunity costs, I think it's more of like what I sort of detect from that is like a sense of grief and loss, really, not really grief, but more loss, that you've had so much taken away from you.

That like everything that you do, like it's almost like you've had so much. so much taken away from you that like you don't really like every decision that you make now like has to be weighed very very heavily because it's sort of like you've already used up all of your freebies and so like you know you're on the verge of getting knocked out of the tournament like every single time like every decision you make is like the last decision that you get to make and if you screw up I'm terrified of irreversible mistakes yep right and and so so so so i want to just point something out zorian so i think that do you have a sense of how you're feeling right now no okay so i um some some people might

call this alexa time when i was uh what i remember when i was like around 17 18 19 i felt like I was a robot. I felt like I had no feelings. It was weird. But then over time, as I reflected a lot, I came to realize that I do have emotions. They're just kind of identifying them becomes it's a little bit retarded.

It takes time. Okay. So how do you feel about that? Don't ask me. Okay. Okay. So how do I feel about... So hold on. So we just got something there, right? You say, don't ask me. Right? So when I ask you, how does that make you feel? I don't have information. Yep. So when someone gets your teacher, right? So when someone asks a question and someone doesn't have an answer, how does that person feel?

Wait, wait, wait. Can you say that again? Sure. So you're a teacher, right? Yes. So when someone asks a question and someone, someone else doesn't have an answer, how does the person without the answer feel? So when a student asks me a question? Nope. Sure. Just in general, when I ask, when there's someone who asks a question and someone doesn't have an answer, how does the person without the answer feel?

Who is the person without an answer? The person who asked or the person who doesn't have the answer to respond? It doesn't have the answer to respond. I don't know. So I would say that when people ask me questions, especially when I'm, like, you know, in school and I didn't have an answer. I felt stupid. Oh, okay.

What do you think? I have an answer? No, I don't feel stupid for being ignorant. Okay. So I think this is what's kind of confusing. So here's what I'm sort of getting from you. Can I share some thoughts? What?

Sure. You're laughing. What is that? I don't know. So if you look at necessary conditions, for laughter and expected comes to mind. Uh-huh.

And it needs to be, oh, I don't know. So it needs to be something unexpected that is seen as not harmful. Yeah, okay. So, Zorian, we're going to take a step back because I think there's a lot of stuff going on in this conversation

that I think can be hard to follow. So we're going to try to, I'm going to try to share with you what I understand, okay? I could be completely wrong here. So there's some weird, there's some weirdness. And I get the sense that you're smiling,

but you actually are feeling deeply, deeply uncomfortable. What do you think? I don't feel anxiety. I'm not. Yeah, so like when I look at your eyes, I don't think you're having a good time. Like when I look at your face, I see you smiling,

but I see a lot of tension. But I really don't think that this is, normally when we see someone smiling like this, we think like, oh, is this person having fun? I don't think you're having fun. Are you having fun? fun. Okay, so it's a feeling of euphoria. Do you feel euphoria right now? teeny tiny, teeny a little bit. Okay, so when we have a big smile and we feel a tiny bit of

euphoria, I think there are other emotions in there. And part of what makes this really, yeah, so, so I'm just going to toss a couple of things out. The first Zorian is that, because I think it's like really, how can I, I, I was about to say strange, but I think there's a lot going on in this conversation that is not being talked about. So it's sort of like there's like a stage, but then there's like this whole audience on the outside that we're not really addressing. And I think that's part of what is a little bit unusual

about this conversation. Because I think you have a lot of stuff going on on the inside, which you have done such an amazing job of keeping at the borders of like your consciousness. So I know it sounds weird. So the first thing that I want to do, Zorian, is like really commend you. because I think that you've really shown to me. So like, I know that, you know, there are all kinds of

psychological impacts from cults and stuff like that. But I think it's really hard to grow up in a cult and like have, you know, the fortitude to leave when you're 18 to notice some of the impacts that it's had on you to really, because like, like it's, because if we really think about it, like, you know, you kind of got screwed. And you have to be a little bit careful about your self-judgment in terms of like, you know, if you look at like the average person, and they were given so many opportunities. Like, you know, people read them bedtime stories. Like, their parents read them bedtime stories.

Like, their parents would go on trips. And you got to, like, there was just really basic stuff, right? Like, most people get the opportunity to make friends and keep friends. And really, really, really, like, basic human stuff that was really taken away from you at a young age. And so I'm sure that there's a part of you. So I think there's this, like, thread of, like, stupidity and, and judgment. mentalness, which you have towards yourself, which you try to push away through logic. But the interesting thing is that when you talk about the construction between like logic

overcoming emotion, that still means that the emotion is there. Your logic may win. But like really, I think moving forward is like sure, like logic needs to win. Like let's say it's 51% 49%. But then you're still like even if you can overcome that feeling of stupidity, what I think really like what I what I see is like the next step of your growth is not letting logic win, but not having logic need to win, right? It's really truly letting go of some of these things like ego and emotions and stuff like that. And you're even doing it now, right? So there's been a change a little bit in the way that you're kind of looking. There's a change in the way like you seem more relaxed. I don't know exactly what's going on, but I just noticed you had like a big sigh,

which I think is good. Yes. So I think you've managed to, it's interesting because I think you've like been forced to come up with your own methods of survival and recovery, of trying to build a life out of the shambles that you were given. And I think that everything I have I invented on my own. Absolutely. And I think it's, it's truly amazing that you've come as far as you have. And at the same time, I think that, you know, a little help will go a long way. and that there are some things that I think it's worth sort of reconceptualize or like rethinking. And I think I feel really good about this because I think you've demonstrated so clearly that if you're given building blocks, you can really build something.

So really what I want to do is not really give you answers, but give you kind of building blocks, let you play around with them and let you see if things are going better. Okay. That's all the first thing is that I think we're seeing a lot of what calls what I would call inappropriate affect or discongruent affect. So the display of emotion that you have is kind of like not doesn't jive with like what we're actually talking about. Really? Right? So yeah, right? Because you're like smiling a whole lot.

But like we're not talking about anything funny, Zorgan. Nothing about this. It's funny to me. It's funny to me. Yeah. So let's think about that. Right. So, so and this is what sometimes I think is going to make it hard for you to connect with other people.

maybe yes yeah right so like what's funny about what we're talking about like that's unexpected what's unexpected because you seem like you're at the verge of tears to me okay okay so I feel like my unconscious brain

comes up with predictions that are different from most people's predictions yep and that may be from having a distorted worldview from growing up in a cult or building my own worldview after leaving. Okay. I guess. So, I mean, there are unexpected things happen all the time.

It doesn't make them funny. No, no, yeah. What makes something funny is when the unexpected is harmless. Okay. So here's an alternate hypothesis for you, okay? So sometimes we use humor as a defense mechanism. Okay. Okay. So this tumor might be a defense mechanism. Yeah. So I think it is. And I think it's, it actually is like, can make it strange for people to like observe this conversation because like there's a lot of inappropriate affect. Right. And it's so easy to bring out. Like, I mean, if I didn't know better, I thought I'd think that you were like listening to a comedian on stage with like how much you're laughing.

And then the more that we pointed out, the funnier it becomes. So as we call attention to things and we bring awareness to things, it becomes funnier and funnier and funnier. And generally speaking, we're bringing emotion out of you, but it's weird because you've got such a fat defense mechanism that we just get laughter. Right? You can see it like it's just bubbling up. Like you can't even control it. It's like, I'm just saying, Zori, and you're laughing right now. And you're like, ha, ha, ha, that's so funny.

That's so it's not funny, bro. Okay. So right now, tears are welling up in my eyes. Yeah. So you, does that have any meaning? Well, I mean, what kind of tears are they?

They're not tears of joy. Yeah. I feel like. Yeah. So I, it might be suppressed emotion. It might be some kind of defense. Like,

in order to avoid. falling into a crisis where I just Yeah, so it's okay, bro. Do you feel like what you're doing is okay? Or is there some part of you that you're overcoming that is telling you like this is dumb and you should know how to do this?

If you're saying I may have self-esteem issues, that's a no. No, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is right now in this moment, is there a part of you that feels stupid and another part of you that's telling yourself that you don't need to feel stupid, it's completely understandable.

No, there's no such dialogue inside my head. Okay. So the first thing... But when you said, it's okay, bro, I almost felt like I could cry. Yep, that's why I said it. Right? So I think this is where, like, how do you understand that? Why I kind of get emotional when...

you say this is, you give a sign that this is a safe place and it's okay. I don't understand really. I don't understand the relationship between those two things. Sure. I'm just going to cry a little bit on my own if that's okay with you. Sure. Go ahead. So what does it mean to you when I say it's okay?

It's okay to show the repressed emotions that are wrong. No. I don't know. Yeah. I don't want you. Educated guests. Yeah, no, it's good, right? So I think you're very good at educated guesses because they're logical.

And I hate saying wrong because that could make you feel stupid. But I think, Zoran, I love being told them wrong. I love it. It's okay. It's fine. Okay. Zorian, so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to accept you. Okay.

Okay. I get you. How does it feel to be accepted? I don't need it. there it is, right? Why don't you need it? I haven't thought about that. Because you have an answer for me real quick there.

No laughter, you don't need it. And that's the sad, that's the saddest damn thing. Really? Yes, absolutely. Because you're someone who's grown up without acceptance. And so you've learned to live and function. My parents loved me unconditionally. Is that not acceptable?

So that's a logical answer, right? Like you're saying, like, if parents love you unconditionally, isn't that acceptance? So let me toss something else out at you, and I'm sure you'll swap this aside. But like, when your parents leave a cult at the age of 15 and fucking leave you in it, they don't tell you and they continue emotionally manipulating you. Like, you worked up the courage to leave the cult at 18 and they had done it three years ago and they left you behind. So? What do you think about that? Not consciously. Yeah, I know, I know. Feels a little bit depressing. What does that mean? So it's going to take time. Okay. So here's what I'm thinking, Zorian. So the first thing is I think you're doing phenomenally well. I think that it's

truly amazing how you've learned to become independent and survive on your own. But I think it's like really challenging, right? Because you don't need anyone's acceptance, but boy, do you want it? Because everyone wants it. Right? You learn to live without a basic human need. And when I start to demonstrate something to you unconditionally, when I don't qualify anything that your, your intellect can get around. When I just say, it's okay, bro. Yes. What is okay? I. I'm not telling you. Why is it okay? I'm not telling you.

What are we even talking about? I'm not telling you. There's nothing for your intellect to latch on to with that statement, which is why it sort of sinks deep. Yes. You're right. Right? And even the you're right stuff, like you got to be careful because that's your intellect being like, oh, that is correct. Now we understand the equation.

You're like stepping out of the emotion. And then when I catch you in the act, your other defense mechanism steps in and it's like, ha ha ha ha. So do you think my intellect is also a defense mechanism? Absolutely. Amazing. Right? And it's it is for everyone.

Because here's the thing. Like, Zorian, you've got so much stuff to protect against on the inside. Because let's remember, I don't know if you knew this, but you were raised in a cult that was incredibly emotionally manipulative and probably quite traumatic. So there's going to be a lot down there. And it's not like, it's a testament to your intellect that your intellect. that your intellect has grown so much, your ego has grown so much, but also makes like,

let's face it, bro, really stupid decisions. Like you're sleeping on your floor because you go out of your way to help people. And I don't doubt that there's a certain kind of logic to that. And hopefully you don't feel bad. I'm really careful about the word stupid, but I'm trying to actually really walk a type of here. So if you call me stupid, I suspect, I highly suspect, I will not feel better. I think so. I think so as well in this situation because of the way in which I'm And any situation. Okay, sure. If you say so.

Yeah. So just because you don't feel bad doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Right. So if you're, especially if you're lexatymic. But this is where I think you've like, you've like, like it's fascinating because I,

what I see is like, you know, I imagine someone who's shipwrecked on an island and has to like build everything for themselves. And that's what I see you as. I see you as like some guy who through like ingenuity grit and a lot of hard work has constructed a water wheel in a rain catching thing and constructed like fish traps and like all these other things to like help you survive. And at the same time, I'm not familiar with the reference, but anyway. So this is where like I also think that there's a lot of work that you still have ahead of you and some of it is going to be tough because what's happening is that you. you have like adaptations on adaptations on adaptations, which are fine.

Like they're good. They've helped you and things like that. But at the same time, I think that, for example, like, you're still very angry at your parents. Like, you've forgiven them. But I think that like, like, you're still incredibly angry with them, which can be hard when they love you so much, which can be hard when you've forgiven them, which can be hard. But like, I think it's tough, man. And not.

I haven't noticed those so much as far. Yeah. I think it's understandable. So then the other thing is that you may not be angry at your parents. You may just be fucking pissed at the world. And now we get into really tricky territory because I think you've got to learn how to feel emotions that don't do anything for you. Because a lot of times when I see people who are hyper intellectual, what happens is they're like, there's no use to feeling that emotion. I can't do anything about it.

And if they can't do anything about it, they sort of discard it. They're like, there's no point. They bury it. The thing is the emotion doesn't really like go away, just sort of like, you know, get saved on some remote corner of your hard drive where it just like kind of lingers. And we're seeing a lot of things that, you know, sometimes you have these like drastic emotional reactions that you sort of recognize that you have hate within you. Once again, really, really awesome, you know, thing that you figured out. It's amazing. Really, I'm really impressed, Zorian,

with how far you come on your own. And at the same time, I still think that there's like a lot of stuff like going, you know, underneath. Like, I mean, you kind of say that you're, parents are simpletons, which sort of makes sense, but also, like, they came out of the cult, were raised in the cult and emphasized education for you. I think they had second thoughts about the cult a long time, you know, like in the way that you were raised. Yeah, maybe they were looking for an excuse to leave. I mean, I think they realized that I think they realized that they didn't want to, like, raise you in the way that they were raised, but anyway, it gets complicated. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So they were both orphans.

Yeah, so I'm not quite sure, you know, what's going on there. But, you know, there's just, there's just a lot of stuff like going on here, Zorgan. Like, it's, it's hard to describe. But some of the inappropriate affect, some of the hyper intellectualization. And I think that you're not, I hope I'm not making you feel kind of like naked or anything like that. But, but I think that, you know, you really do have, because it's kind of weird. Like I think whatever logical system you're using to, that wines you sleep. sleeping up on the floor out of altruism may make sense, but it feels to me like there's a blind spot somewhere in there. And I think basically the blind spot is is like some amount of these like emotions, which I don't doubt that you've genuinely forgiven your parents. But like I also think there's just like a roiling mass of emotion like somewhere in there. Okay. And just. Yeah. So don't you think if after four years of being extremely angry and venting of the world. Like all the negative emotions come out and eventually dissipate?

Yes and no. So this is where, you know, the, we haven't even gotten to what the psychological impact is and potentially what you are dealing with now. But so I think that like, I kind of think about them as like little spawning machines that will generate thoughts. So there's like a portal that like, you know, thoughts are coming out of. And you can vent the individual thought, but the portal can still be down there. And I think that you've done some of the process of digesting that.

But just the degree of your inappropriate affect suggests to me that there's some kind of negative emotion that is under there. I see what I see what you mean. Right? Yeah, I get it. So. And it's just like, because, you know, sure, you can logically say that things are unexpected and that's why they're funny. But like, you know, all kinds of unexpected stuff happens that isn't harmful. but we don't, I mean, maybe the other option,

other thing on the differential diagnosis here is that maybe you're enlightened because sometimes enlightened people will laugh at all manner of things. Oh, shit. See, that's a genuine laugh, right? Like, that's actually funny. I can see it in your eyes this time. What do you think about all this? Oh, I just realized.

So the other thing is that have you forgiven your self? I'm very bad at forgiving myself. Yeah. So this is, maybe this is the piece that I was missing, is that like we talked about forgiving your parents and you may not have anger towards themselves, but if we look at this sort of like, you know, your inability to forgive yourself and like how, frankly, how stupid you feel. Like, I know that you don't consciously own that you feel stupid, but we can definitely detect a theme of self-blame. Yes. So when I make a mistake, uh, I feel

sell clothing. Right. So, but how do you understand that? So it's a certain kind of mistake. It's a irreversible mistake, something that costs me an opportunity. And, okay, so I tend to go into, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but I tend to go into swearing fits to suppress, blaming, feeling bad about things that, that, like, mistakes I've done.

So, okay, there's, I don't know if it was the answer to my question, but boy, do I like it more than anything else that you could have said. Okay. So, so I think there's a lot there, right? So you say you go into swearing fits. What are you swearing at? Myself. Okay. So, like, like, this is where, like, and this is, no, this is going to sound weird, but, like, the way that you feel about yourself.

When did you start to feel that way about yourself? The way I feel about myself. What's the way I feel about myself? Let me just jump to it. So, you know, I think you left the cult, but the cult didn't leave you. Right? What I'm hearing here is that like, like, the way that when they talk to you about you're doing your chores and things like that and like God is watching and like,

you know, it's not okay and like you're not worthy and or maybe you guys were chosen. ones. And it's sort of like I'm, I could, I could connect those two dots. That once again is a hypothesis for you. That like, you know, the self-loathing, because when I think about when you talk about emotional manipulation and guilting and stuff like that, like I think you've carried it with you. Yes. So. So I'm going to just keep going. Some of the cult stuff is so fucking painful that I've avoided talking about it for 10 years. I just try to forget

and I push it into the corner of my mind that I put it under lock and key and I do not talk about it. How do you feel about yourself for doing that? I have no ability to answer that question. Do you feel weak?

Asking that question to a person with Alexa time is a little bit. It's okay. I have no ability to identify if I feel weak. Do you feel stupid? When you say does it feel stupid? Is it an okay answer to say it rings a bell?

Sure. Zorian? Any answer is an okay answer. So here's what I would say. You set it aside because it's so painful. I completely understand. I mean, I really don't understand it all, to be honest. But here's what I would say, it's okay, bro.

Whatsoever you do with it, it's okay. Everything that you've accomplished is fantastic. And the fact that you haven't accomplished things is also fine. You've missed out on opportunities. You've made irreversible mistakes. It's okay, bro. You're allowed to make mistakes.

I'm not. I'm not allowed to make mistakes. Why not? There's the smile again. even if you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, I'll allow you to make mistakes. Okay. So, mistakes cost time. That's how I see it.

Sure. And I don't have enough time. Some of my time has been stolen, I suppose. So the remainder of the time that's left is more valuable when you put it into that perspective. You can put it into that perspective all you want to. It's not one that I'm going to adopt. Okay. irrespective of how logically correct it is.

Right? And this is where like Zorian, what you've really got to learn how to do and it's going to be really hard because it goes against everything. Because you're trying to make up for lost time. You're trying to fix the past. If you can maximize the time that you have left, at the end of the day, the scales will be even. But here's the crazy thing. Like you can't ever make up for what's happened in the past. Yes, I can only compensate it.

No, the same fucking thing. It's a synonym. Okay, fine. Right? So that's what you need to let go of. And it's hard to admit that like you got screwed, bro. And that maybe you blame yourself for it. Maybe you blame your parents for it.

Maybe you blame the universe. Maybe you blame God, whatever. Because God's off the table because you're an atheist. And you've learned to forgive your parents. So who's left? Where does the responsibility lie? And now we see where the self-loathing comes from. Right?

Because it's kind of strange. Like, this is a really interesting, like, issue that kids have is before kids develop theory of mind, which is the sort of understanding that other human beings exist. They feel like they are in a single player game. Yep. And so, like, all of that fault is yours. And what I'm seeing from you time and time and time again is, like, harsh, harsh. lack of acceptance towards yourself.

I mean, we, we knew that before you told us that you swear to keep feelings at bay. Okay. Right? And so, like, then you tell us, like, an hour into the conversation that I swear at myself and I beat myself up. And it's like, yeah, okay, I think we saw that coming. And so this is where it's going to be really challenging, Zorian, because I think, and this is where, you know, I'm going to toss something. out. Like, I think you've got to let those feelings out. And this is the really challenging even harder than that. I think you can let the feelings out. Problem is that I don't think you can do it

with someone. I don't know if you can tolerate showing the ugliest and worst parts of yourself to another human being. And the hardest part about that, because I just did it just a tiny bit, is like them accepting you for being all that loathing that you feel towards yourself. uncovering it is the first hardest thing. Uncovering it with someone else is the second hardest thing. And then even then, you've got an easy out. Go ahead. Right.

I do not feel accepted. Yeah. I feel like I need to be accepted, but I'm too afraid to show the part of myself. Because there is a fear of rejection. Nope. It's not a fear of rejection. What is it then? It's a fear of acceptance.

Really? I think so. How? Because if they reject you, is that new? No, stop. Can you survive that rejection? Yes. Absolutely, because you fucking do it to yourself every single day.

Okay, okay, okay. What you fear is acceptance. What you're terrified of, what gets you going, is not me telling you that you're stupid, as you've told us, when you say you're stupid, if I call you stupid, you're like, doesn't touch me. It's when I say it's okay, bro, that you're like, fuck. You're right.

Okay, I got. You're right. Abuse. Zorian, you grew up in a cult. Your abuse resistance is 100%. Oh, I see. It's unconditional love. It's acceptance. It's admitting that you don't need to change.

That it's okay to let go of your operative. that you don't need to be perfect. Yes, all of those things that you're saying right now, those make me feel like I want to cry. I feel good about it. I'm happy for you, Zorian, because it's like it's a painful journey, but it's a good one, and it's worth the opportunity cost. I feel like it's not even a worthwhile question to ask,

how do I get, how do I overcome this barrier? Good. Great question. Why isn't that a worthwhile question? Sounds stupid. There it is. You see it? Always lurking. Every step forward that you try to take, the question that you need to ask, the important question, there's your mind.

It's stupid. Don't do it, Zorian. It's a dumb question. So how do you move forward? It's the most important question to ask. So, and then we get into a really tricky thing because if I say it's the most important question to ask, maybe then you feel stupid for, like, hesitating to ask. ask it. So it can go... It's a dumb question because it should have a... I suspect the answer is

pretty obvious. Right. And there it is again. Okay. So now like hopefully like Twitch chat is following at this point. Maybe you're following. Because like do you see how no matter how we cut this problem? The conclusion is like it's a dumb question to ask because it's obvious. And if it's obvious, then you are an idiot. There it is. Like it's a thing. Like you're, you're, your logic is falling underneath this like emotional or like some scot or like the like you see like it doesn't matter how you cut this pie like the conclusion was always going to be like zorion's an idiot right and if i say that to you it doesn't bother you at all because you tell yourself all the time like what difference does it make if like another person tells you you you're an

idiot because you tell yourself all the time no big deal yes i'm a big so i don't think you're a big idiot matter if it's true. Huh? Does it matter what you think if it's true? That's a... Does it matter what you think if I know it's true? Exactly, right? So there it is again.

Like, you're discounting what I say. You're like swatting it away. Like, because where... So what's the conclusion from that statement? When I say, I don't think you're an idiot, you're like, that's not true. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And the conclusion is that you are in, there it is.

We can play this game as many rounds as you want to go. We're always going to end up in the same damn place. Which in turn can make you feel even stupider. So it's like it's just not productive. Like, well, there's a certain amount of productivity there. So what do you do about it? That's a good question. Okay.

So it's like even if I call you smart, you think you're stupid. And even if I call you stupid, you think you're stupid. It's like, you just can't win. And that doesn't make you stupid. It's just that's the emotional thing that you've worked so hard to bury that it's like there and it's like clogging up your heart. You have like this hidden folder on your hard drive that's clogging it up, but like it's hidden so you don't see it. But its action is always going to be there. So the first thing you've got to do is awareness.

So I think Zoria, this is something that you're gifted at. The more that you're able to notice this pattern in your mind, the more it starts to dissolve. Yes. That awareness will start the process of emotional digestion. Second thing is that you say you haven't talked to anyone, you haven't told anyone. So like, that's a good place to start. Right. So this is where, you know, I'd highly recommend.

So sometimes I talk about our coaching program. But this is definitely a case where I would recommend you see a real therapist. Right. Like go and it sounds like your financial situation isn't maybe the best right now. So I don't know exactly what resources are available to you. But I think that, you know, this is definitely something where I would go and talk to someone. right? Because I think that you were conditioned to loathe yourself. That's what cults do. Yes, you're right. And so it's interesting, but to learn how to love yourself is like difficult.

Like conditioning, it doesn't matter. Like all conditioning is conditioning. We can be conditioned you to loathe yourself. We can condition you to love yourself. And sometimes like what you need from people like because people are going to show you, right? Like, I'm going to make these weird statements, which aren't logical. Like, it's okay. Bro, like, good job, Zorian. And you're like, good job at what? And I'm like, everything, anything? I don't know.

All of it. Like, it's those things. Like, someone's going to have to show you. And sometimes people are lucky enough to find this in a romantic relationship, although I wouldn't recommend it. You know, it's like a roll of a dice kind of thing. Yeah. That, you know, like, you need to be, like, taught how to,

accept yourself. And it's going to be these little moments where like you're learning, your brain, your neurons are rewiring right now. As these emotions come up as you start crying and things like that. Like there's rewiring going on in your brain as we speak. So you just need to continue doing that rewiring. And then like one day you're going to wake up and like you're going to when you make a mistake, like there's going to be like another dialogue that pops up in your head, which is like, man, that was kind of stupid. But it's okay. I'm never going to argue with you about whether it's stupid or not stupid. That's an argument that I can never win.

So the current way I avoid or get over beating myself up is whenever I catch that feeling, whenever I start to insult myself, I replace it with I write down what I learn from that experience. Nope. Incorrect. Okay. you don't want to replace it. That's the very opposite of acceptance. You see that?

If we're replacing it, you're not accepting it. It's subtle, really tricky. So when it happens... But I never load myself again after I do that. So why does that happen? No, no. So this is when you loat yourself, you should accept yourself for loathing yourself.

Okay. Right? Don't just get stuck at the loathing layer. Notice that, hey, this is me like beating myself up again. And like, it's something that I'm going to work on, but it's okay. It's okay for me to feel this way. Okay. Because when you load, yeah, let me just finish this point.

When you loat yourself, it's the opposite of acceptance. Yes. Right? So like even if we, it's subtle, really subtle. If we replace the loathing, what we're doing is still not accepting ourselves. So just unconditionally like accept whatever you are, right? I'm not saying that you aren't stupid. What I'm saying is that it's okay.

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Okay. So what's the point of this? Why should I accept this? What are the benefits? Let me think about that question for a second.

Like, is this the path to enlightenment? This question feels like a trap to me. No, it's not. But, come on. Oh, I think it may be. Hold on. Okay. I'm trying to decide if I'm reading too much into this.

When you say what's the point of this? Yes. Okay, I'm going to just answer. So I think the point is because, like, I don't think you have to live this way anymore. I don't want you to live this way anymore. I think it's incredibly sad and devastating that you've been living this way this long.

Hmm. Okay, I'll take it. You okay, doctor okay? I could use a little bit of reassurance. Hmm. It's okay. Let me, yeah. I'm thinking about that.

Zorin, I kind of feel like we are at, I want you to really like sort of sit with how far we've gotten. I'm a little bit concerned because that other, the next, the last question you asked, I think, is like opening up a new thing to. So I'm sort of feeling like this is a good place to stop, at least from my exploration. Now, if you have questions,

I'm more than happy to answer them. But, like, I think how far we've come is actually, like, I want you to sort of not go any farther than this, because I think this is the thing. Okay. Does that make sense? No. Okay.

So, like, I think that there are further conversations that need to be had, but this piece you need to work on first. I see. Okay. And I don't think any amount of other intellectual understanding is going to, like, really improve anything. Okay. Does this, would you say a good step in the right, would you say it's a step in the right direction if I get rid of my intellectual ego? Sort of. Because I think once again, getting rid of replacing is not what we want to do. So your intellectual ego will subside when it no longer needs to be there.

So it's not about getting rid of the intellectual ego. It's about no longer needing it to protect you. Right. So right now your intellectual ego is like the tool that you fashioned that allows you to like start to put your life back together. So I'd say don't get rid of it. It's there for a reason. Okay. But that ego comes at the cost of like bearing all this stuff and this weird self-loathing that you have left over.

And you can work intellectually with your ego as long as you want to. I suspect, I mean, maybe you can overcome it. I guess technically you can. But I'd say that they're easier, not easier, faster ways. That may be a little bit. It's going to be uncomfortable for you because like you have, you fashion such a brilliant and capable intellectual ego that letting it go and like entering a territory where it can't do its job, it can be very scary.

But I think ultimately that's what you need is like emotional healing. Any other questions? Is getting rid of my fear of irreversibility to accepting myself? Same problem. Getting rid. Replacing. Right? Wait, is replacing a better word?

Nope. They're all the same word. They're all synonyms. Right? So like the thing is like I don't think you need to get rid of your fear. This is the whole problem is that like you're always rejecting parts of yourself. Well, yeah, because I need to improve. No, you don't.

That's what needs to change. It's okay, bro. That is deeply unsettling. Yep. It feels wrong. Yep. Should I navigate to a place where it feels right? Nope.

To accept who I am right now and just not want to improve any more? Yep. Is that the destination of going? There's no destination. You're already there. What do you mean? You're great just the way that you are. You don't need to do a damn thing, Zorian. Okay, so you're saying there is not a tool I can fashion. Just Zorian, just sit with your fucking emotions.

Close your eyes. You feel deeply unsettled. Don't go anywhere. Just sit with that feeling. of being unsettled. You don't... It's gone already with you. Okay. So it's...

So like, all you need to do is just sit with it. You don't need to do... You need to go anywhere. You don't need to change it. You're great... Are you sure that it's not a good idea to like make it surface

and then sit with it? Sure. You can make it surface and sit with it. But we sort of did that just now. And I think there's a certain amount of tolerance you have, which you'll build up over time. So this is why, like, I think you should see a therapist, right? Because the therapy is...

Huh? Maybe my friends will help me. I'll see. Yeah. So I think this is where, like, they can teach you how to learn how to sit with yourself, but that's all you need to do. You can't fix that, which isn't broken. Interesting. So I think what's broken is that this is very meta. What's broken is I don't recognize that I don't need to be fixed. there's something that's preventing me from realizing that. Yeah, that's also, that's going to go like add infinitum, because that in and of itself is what's, like, you're just,

I'm starting with the presumption, now we're getting intellectual, that you're not broken. And you're like, what's broken is that I can't recognize I'm broken. And there we are again. Like, you can play this game. Like, you can run circles around these, Oregon. Feels true. Yep, yep, absolutely, right?

So like, look who isn't Alexothymic anymore. It feels true. Absolutely. Because it's a feeling. You start with the conclusion, the emotional conclusion, that you are busted in some fundamental way. And so as long as that is there, like, no matter how much logic you use, you're going to wind up in the same damn place. So it's like an emotional thing that needs to happen. So I'm going to leave you with a different.

kind of meditation practice. Okay. If that's okay. Is it okay if I give you a meditation practice and we wrap up or do you have other questions? No, I'm fine with it. Let's do it. So the meditation.

Okay. I want to give you a co-on because I think that a co-on is like one of these paradoxes. But I have to try to think about, I'm just trying to think about a good co-on. So it's like something that meditators use to try to break them. themselves out of this intellectual cycle. Because you're intellectual, like, so it's something that fundamentally doesn't make sense. Okay. The trick is accepting that it doesn't make sense?

There's no trick to it. The point is that you have to abandon all tricks. So this is what I want you to do. I want you to watch a rock grow. Okay, I can do that. Okay. Just watch a rock grow. Sounds like fun.

Okay, good. That's the point. Okay. Well, that's sort of what I've got for you, Zorian. I didn't mean to, hopefully I wasn't too abrupt with how we ended things, but I really think it's going to get repetitive and you're actually moving further away from like where you need to be with the more questions that you ask. And maybe that makes sense. Maybe it doesn't. But now we re-engage your intellectual mind and all your questions are like, I think we like we had a couple of wins in there when you were like, this feels deeply uncomfortable. Like, good. That's what we want, right? Like, This feels wrong. This feel, like, so like, you're becoming less elixothymic over the course of the conversation, which is really good. So now you need to kind of like practice some of those skills, go see a therapist and watch a rock grow. I'm serious. Like, sit down and just watch it grow.

And then pay attention to all the things that your mind does. At first, it's like, oh, look, like, this is going to be the trick that teaches me things. And then that's going to be there for a little while. Then you're going to be like, actually, this is stupid. I'm not, the trick isn't working. And then your mind is going to tell you. you to stop. And then you're going to be like, no, no, no. If I continue, then I'll discover the trick. I'll discover the trick of it. And then you're going to be frustrated again. You're like,

there's no stupid trick. It's dumb. And then like, if you continue with it, then hopefully you'll figure it out. But there's no trick. And as long as you think is that there's a trick, you won't find it. Right. So you're telling me that if I sit long enough with this, eventually I'll get used to it. Nope. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm telling you it's a waste of time and you should do it anyway. Okay. Good luck to you, Zoran. And thank you very much for coming. I hate the fact that it is ending so soon.

I understand it can feel unsatisfying. But this is, I hope you don't view this as an end. I really think like this is an important beginning. And we're not, I'm happy in a way. weird way that you feel a little bit hungry because like that means that this was good for you. And so like I encourage you to go eat again. Like find a therapist. Seriously. Okay. Take care, man. See you. I love you. Love you too.