HealthyGamerGG - Existential Dread ft. Michael Reeves

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

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Um, yeah, so welcome. And so people refer to you by your full name. They call you Michael Reeves. Um, it's, it's really whatever the flavor of what you're feeling is. What are you, what are you? What are you? Because people like, you know, it's interesting because I just look at, you know, who we're talking to today. And they'll always see like your name with first name and last name. Yeah, I've noticed that. I, not intentionally. I've done that.

Michael's fine. Okay. Some friends call me Mike. Yeah, just whatever. Okay. What do you prefer? Mike or Michael? Michael's good.

Okay. Cool. So tell me, is there something in particular you want to talk about today? Not really. I just kind of came into it. I don't know, talk of a little conversation. Sure. See what you can glean out of it.

Cool. There are a couple things that I think are like maybe like stereotypically kind of for a discussion like this. Sometimes, you know, there's like, you know, the classic, like, I get anxious a lot, stuff like that. But, you know, really just looking to talk about whatever's. And when you say you get anxious a lot, what does that mean? I've, like, I was thinking of things to talk about for the session. That's just, like, you know, something that came up. I often am anxious about many things.

Okay. So if that's somewhere you want to explore or really whatever you want to get into. I mean, so I'm, so Michael, think of me as a resource. So I have a wide background of training from like meditation and spirituality to like neuroscience and psychiatry. So is there something in that span that you're curious about or you think could be helpful for a particular dimension of your life? I suppose is there like a little like your psychology sprinkled in there? Sure. Awesome.

Helpful. I suppose, yeah. I do struggle with anxiety sometimes. Okay. So maybe that's something. Sure. I'm noticing a theme. Yeah, yeah.

You get anxious a lot about a lot of things as you said. Yes. Yeah. So let's talk about that. So what do you get anxious about? A lot of things, very day-to-day things. Like what? Like whatever I'm doing for work, getting started with anything, any kind of project.

Lots of things coming on a show on Twitch. That wasn't too bad, but... Is this a show on Twitch? Is this a show on Twitch? Yeah. is that what we are we a show is this a show i suppose it is a show okay i'm right i don't know um okay i was just wanted to get this fell under that umbrella but okay so you said getting started on stuff sometimes doing stuff on twitch what else uh day-d-day stuff you know the normal normal human anxious things

you know thinking about the long general future of your life um about that. Yeah. Classic stuff, sure. Long general future of your life. What's your background in neuroscience, actually? So I did research for about, I was a research assistant in a neuroscience lab for about 18 months to two years.

And then you learn a lot of applied neuroscience as in medical school and as a psychiatrist. So what is applied neuroscience? Like, how do you apply that knowledge? because I have no idea what the field of neuroscience is like. Sure. So applied neuroscience is if you have someone who is in a car accident and a part of their brain is damaged, then what does that do to them and how do you work with them?

So that's like applied neuroscience. Another example of applied neuroscience. So I do a lot of mind-body work. So for example, how does the brain change under prolonged periods of stress? So just here's an example of applied neuroscience. So let's say that someone is under stress. So stress releases a hormone called, releases a couple of things. So first thing it releases is adrenaline, which or noradrenaline epinephrine.

A couple of these short acting hormones, those affect the brain in certain ways. So one thing that adrenaline does is it collapses your peripheral vision from about 180 degrees to 30 degrees. So that's an evolutionary thing that kind of causes people to focus in on like the center. Interestingly, I think that it does that psychologically too. So generally speaking, when people are under periods of stress, they have trouble considering things that are not right in front of them. The peripheral of, you know, your mind. Exactly.

So they kind of like tunnel down and just focus on one thing. Over time, so you also release a hormone called cortisol, which has a slower duration of action. So adrenaline hits your body within seconds and lasts for minutes. Cortisol starts to kick in within the hour and will last for like, it has different kinds of physiological and neurological effects for four to 24 hours. One example is that it goes to this little part in the back of your brain called the reticular activating formation, which governs sleep. And so the reason that it does that is because when we were when we were evolving and we were like primates,

living in dangerous situations. If you had an adrenaline response, like if you saw a tiger in the woods, you want cortisol to keep your reticular activating formation active and make your sleep easily disturb them. Right? So like you want to wake up if you hear something. Yeah, it's an evolutionary response. Absolutely. So the downside, though, is that now when people are under mental stress, because we don't

have tigers anymore, but our physiology adapts to current source. circumstances. So when I'm thinking about, huh? You can't differentiate, right? You can't differentiate. Your body uses what it has. And so then when I'm worried about paying, so today is July 8th, so if I'm thinking about paying rent at the end of the month, I'm going to be in a prolonged period of stress, which is going to make it hard for me to sleep because every noise that happens is going to wake up, wake me up because my reticular activating formation is like high reactive. That's an example of what I would call applied neuroscience. Awesome. Oh, that's very cool. I was, I actually really consider, that's interesting. I considered, I considered getting into, like, psychology when I was in high school. I was at like a crossroads of where I would choose, I was either choosing, like, computer science, video editing, or psychology. I took computer science. How'd you make your decision? Oh, I essentially just flipped a coin, really, just, just very spur of the moment. And which did you choose?

One. Computer science. Yeah. How do you feel about your decision? Oh, I'm very happy. I'm glad I didn't go in a video editing. That's for sure. Still have some thoughts about psychology, but I'm pretty happy with what I chose. When you say you have some thoughts about psychology, what is that? What kind of? Like, you know, I wonder what it would have been like if I had actually ended up pursuing psychology instead. I was really interested in it in high school. But I'm quite glad with the decision I made. Do you like to understand how things work? Yes, yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I like understanding the inner workings of things. I can see the attraction to psychology for you then. Yeah, yeah. Looking at a phone, you want to know how the LCD screen, the little LED screen works.

And I feel like, I mean, like you're never going to fully understand. Maybe that's why I went with ComSai. It was because in psychology, there's always more to do, right? you're never going to fully understand the human mind. Why do you say that? Do you think you can actually fully map out every inner working of the human mind?

Is that like a reasonable end goal of psychology? Sure. Why not? I don't know. I feel like the mind's in, I don't know. I'm not sure you would be able to have reason for every thought that pops into a head, you know, like be able to map each and every little meme. Okay. So let's think about that. So the first question is, are you talking about,

do you think it's unreasonable to map out the origin of every thought for every person? Are we talking about mapping out the origin of every thought for you? Talking about other people yourself? I was talking in a general sense, you know, any random, you know, ex person on the street. Sure. I think that sounds difficult. What do you think about for you? I don't know to what extent.

I think you probably get pretty deep in there about why I think the things I do. I would agree. I think that that's, yeah. I mean, I think that it's hard to understand other people completely, but I do hope that you could understand yourself completely. I think that's what, there's this term enlightenment or moksha. in Sanskrit, which is like when people meditate for a while, they gain enlightenment.

And apparently it's hard and happens rarely. But if we think about just the translation, like it suggests knowledge. And so it's sort of a complete understanding of self. And so I don't know if that's possible or not. But I think that you can certainly make, I mean, I think you can understand most of yourself. Like I think that the human mind, ultimately. is reducible to scientific principles, and if it's reducible to scientific principles as opposed to RNG, then I think you can understand it.

I agree with that. Is that something you seek to do is to understand the way other people think or to help people understand themselves? I'd say more of the latter. Okay. So then we can kind of come back to the anxiety over the long general future of your life. So what are you worried about in terms of, is it okay if I ask you? No, absolutely.

You want to talk more in the third person. We can do that. Oh, you can dive in as far as you want. I've just always kind of struggled with anxiety. That's just something that's like been very prevalent in my life since, you know, the early days I think of high school. So can we actually pause there for a second? When you say you've struggled with anxiety since high school, can you tell me, like, show me what that, like help me understand what does that mean? paint me a picture. Sure. Um, ah, it's a lot of, it started as a lot of social anxiety. So,

like not being able to talk to people in high school, then getting, you know, I think, I think I had a long, very, um, worried idea of what my future was going to be in high school, because I didn't have any plans. Yeah, originally I had no plans, um, for what I was going to do after high school. I was just kind of winging it. Yep. And so I think that was just a very, yeah, prevalent creeping anxiety for, you know, how am I going to survive after this? And it led to like less planning because that meant, you know, accepting the fact that you have to do something after high school. And yeah, that's, yeah, I don't know. It just, I can't actually like pinpoint the exact time then it started happening.

But it started happening at some point where I become anxious about many things, you know. like I'm not able to sleep very well. Like that started in high school. It's where I'm up at night, you know, worrying about things. It's gotten better. I've, you know, gone through like sleeping techniques, meditation techniques, which are nice. Good for you, man. Yeah.

What do you worry about at night? You know, it's the weirdest thing. It's less of like specific things and it's more like a nebulous just impending like, not not impending, but, you know, just a nebulous anxiety about the current state of things, even if everything is good, you know, even if everything going on is good. So would you call it like a nebulous dread? Yes. Oh, that's a very nice poetic term. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, so, Michael, I'd like to toss out a couple things. And let's talk as scientist to

scientist. Okay. So what I'm hearing is that there aren't particular thoughts, but that there's a feeling. Right? So the first thing to understand is that sometimes people are anxious about something, like they're anxious about a particular outcome. Like let's, I think you may have experienced that. So when you said not being able to talk to people, what made it hard in high school for you to talk to people. I think it was just worried what what I don't know what would become of the conversation what I would say you know. He focused on the mechanics less on like the actual interpersonal the reality of the conversation. Yeah. So so and what were you worried would happen if the conversation became a certain way. Oh probably that I'd look like a jackass like you know look stupid.

Right. So probably something dumb high school mean. So if we look at it, that's a particular fear, right? It's an anxiety that has form or shape. Those thoughts have, like, their thoughts. Like, if I say this or if I don't say this, they're going to think I'm stupid. What you're describing to me now seems to be like a general sense of dread that doesn't, it's not that thoughts result in dread, whereas I would almost say that your thoughts sort of result in the feeling of anxiety in high school. Does that make sense? Like, you have particular thoughts and those thoughts lead to feelings. Yes.

Does the feeling come before the thought or does the feeling come after the thought? It seems I would say the feeling comes before the thought, yes. Okay. Almost as if it's stemming from the feeling. Okay. Great thoughts to substitute. So the interesting thing is that then we can say that your feelings can manifest as particular thoughts. but your sense of dread

does not manifest in any particular way it's just like a raw sense of dread okay what would you say to that I could agree it's hard to know what is the symptom and what is like

the cause it's hard to know if like you know I'm the chicken of the egg like if I'm worried about something coming up and that's creating a feeling or the feeling or the feeling is there and I'm just applying it to something that's coming up. Great. So I'd say it's hard to say. Yes, it is hard to say.

So we can tunnel down into that. So what I'm hearing you almost suggest is that there's a possibility that the feeling will latch on to or hijack particular things in your life. Okay. I could say that it, like I latch on to as and I apply it to things happening. Exactly. Yeah, that's what I mean. I could agree with that, yeah. Right?

So it's kind of interesting because then that's not actually, like, it's not that the thing in your life is the source of anxiety. Yeah, exactly. It's just something that you conflate with each other. Yep. So, like, I understand that you said earlier that it's hard to understand what's the chicken or what's the egg. But the interesting thing, Michael, is that I think you actually have hypotheses baked in

to your description of things. because you even i mean you said that like i don't know if it like picks up something that's happening in the future and kind of applies itself to that does that make sense yeah and if we think about how does someone say that sentence it's because they have noticed something that could be true okay so you think i'm already kind of have an idea for what's going on absolutely because i'm not actually telling you very much i'm basically repeating back to you what you said to me. So, because if we really think about it,

I mean, you're the one who said it's like nebulous, right? So it's not specific to something, but you've noticed something within your mind that sometimes this nebulous dread will like apply itself to something in the future. Yes, yeah. And that's kind of weird because it's like, then where does that come from?

Because it doesn't come from the future. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just ever present. Yeah. So how does it feel to have ever-present dread? You know, it's not great, obviously, but I think I've kind of, you know, I've watched a lot of videos and read some things on how to deal with this type of, you know, anxiety and dread. It's definitely better now. Like, I think one that helped a lot was like it's not, you're not supposed to, or one of the ways of dealing with it is not like pushing it away completely, like pretending it doesn't exist.

It's more like accepting that it is, you know, a part of who you are as a person and like learning to live with that in everyday life. And that is very helpful because then you, it's a, I think it's a healthier way of dealing with it. That's one that helped me. Okay. So a healthier way. Okay.

So Michael, I think this conversation is going to be a little bit different from many that we have on stream. Okay. Is it okay if I tell you how I think it's going to be different and sort of get your permission to let it be different? Fair. Lay it on me, man. So sometimes we talk about things that are like anxiety.

Like so sometimes we talk about feelings. We talk about emotions. We talk about experiences. And we may get there for you. But I don't know if it's just the way I'm feeling today or the way that you're talking today or the background that you have or the way. that you speak, but I would really like to help you understand or maybe we can explore together. Like what the fuck is going on here?

Sure. Yeah. What is it like how does that work? Like what is what is existential dread? Is it like is it anxiety? Because or is it like, is you just born this way or like is this like repressed or like what is that? Like where does the shit come from? Let's figure it out.

All right. Right. So, okay. So in order to do that, we're going to have to really tunnel down into a lot of what you say because I think you have a lot of brilliant answers that you, that come across as sort of like unsure observations. Uh-huh. So when you said, okay, we don't know what's the chicken of the egg and then you said, I've read a lot about it. Awesome. You know, I've thought a lot about it. Right. And what I have discovered or what seems to help is there are certain ways of dealing with it. And then you said pushing it away is not the best way to deal. with it and sort of letting it be a part of you accepting it is like a better way to deal with it and it doesn't bother me as much yeah so now let's tunnel down into what you're saying okay so both of these have to do with responses to the existential draft yes absolutely do you see that that's completely different from the origin or getting rid of it and so i would agree with you that pushing

it away is not that healthy is that something you've done before yeah i i I think that's like your initial reaction to any negative feeling, right? As a person, like get, you know, fire, hot, bad, run is kind of the idea. But, I mean, not the, you know, not the general way, not the best way to apply to every negative thing. So how did you push it away? I think just ignoring it and then ignoring it, you know, makes it worse. So. Okay.

And how does one ignore it? I try to put your focus on other things. Very good. Distrature. Yeah, distraction. What else? I can think of none other than distraction. Okay.

So that's probably lucky because some people ignore it through things like using substances, losing themselves in gaming. So that too is sort of distraction. Yeah. So I'm not, yeah, so I guess those are the same. Let me just think about, why do I think about that? Okay, so let's just call that distraction. Do you, every time you have, like, dissonance in your mind, do you try to go in and, like, fix it?

Like, every time you, you, do you often do that what you just did where you wonder why you had that thought process and, like, go in and, that looks like what you just did, right? Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I do that a lot. I don't see a lot of people doing that. I don't see a lot of people doing it either. Do you think it's important? People go in and fix dissonance in their mind? Yes, I think it's very important.

I think that's half of what's wrong with the world today. Yeah, like a mental health idea or in like an interpersonal kind of. Not even health or interpersonal. I think just like human beings don't question the conclusions of their mind. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I agree, I agree. Yeah, so I think we're not taught how to do that. So I think it's a skill.

Yeah, I think self-checking is very important. Yep. So it's interesting because if you want to take a quick tangent and talk about like evolutionary neuroscience, our brains are not decided to do that. So if you think about it, what our brains are decided to do is create certainty from uncertainty. So like in a very simple sense, like back in the day,

like, you know, let's say you wake up in your hut and then you're like, where should I go look for food? that is a problem that is so complicated and you have so little information that it's impossible to answer where should you go look for food you have no fucking idea north south east west i don't know now later how far how long should i go north before i go east and so human beings huh it's a complex problem yeah absolutely and there's no way to answer so what our brain is designed to do is to take gigantic swaths of uncertainty and give us answers. And it says, hey, you should go this way.

And you're like, why? And then your brain is like, I don't know, just do it. We're going to just assume that this is the right way. That's how most of our brain works. Yeah, yeah, that's very. And then you get reinforcement over time as you, you know, find like a berry by the, somewhere by the creek, you go north. Sure.

And then even if you don't get reinforcement, you still don't think you're wrong. you still don't even if you don't get reinforcement you still don't know really yep think about that if i go like north for like five miles and i don't find any berry bushes i'm gonna be like pretty pissed right but well i still think i'm not wrong nope you won't think you're wrong you'll be like let me go a different way okay okay so so there are modern manifestations of this too so there have been studies done on like, you know, like packaging and placement of items within a store. So like if you place a prominent display of cookies at the checkout and then people buy the cookie and then you ask the person as they leave the grocery store, why did you buy the cookie?

They'll give you a reason. They'll say like, oh, you know, my kid really likes these cookies. But that's not actually the deciding factor for why they bought it. The reason that they bought it is because of the placement. Yeah. And if it hadn't been placed there, they wouldn't have purchased it. So our mind is actually designed to fabricate logical reasons for illogical behavior. That's what it's made for.

It works like backwards from the conclusion. Works backwards from the conclusion. Oh, that's a little weird. It's shocking. That's strange. Yeah. Why do you think it? Why does it do that?

Because that's the only way it works. Because thousands of years ago, millions of years ago, we had to menu, like just think about how, like, an animal doesn't understand how anything works, but it has to act with certainty. Uh-huh. It has no fucking idea. Like, we have no, like, you actually don't know. Like, if I stepped outside today, I could get hit by a meteor. That's a possibility.

Like, there's so much uncertainty in the world. And we just assume, like, I assume that, like, my family is behind me in the house, even though I don't know that. Oh, I know that. Huh? Michael is quiet. Michael is quiet. Is that how you're in?

thing or I can also turn up. I've turned you up a little bit. Okay, great. So, yeah, we, I mean, our, our brain operates based primarily on assumptions that we assume are facts. Like, every day if you get in your car and you drive to work, you assume that your workplace is going to be there, even though you don't know that. Okay. Like, it could have been, like, swallowed by an earthquake. Okay, all right.

Is there, like, why do we, do, do you think animals? have to have that reasoning as well? Yes, absolutely. Okay. It's not just like food here, food good. It's like there needs to be a reasoning for getting that food. No, I mean, so it's not. Food here, food good is that's real.

But like most of the world is uncertain. Like if you're a deer and I wake up in the morning, I'm like, where are the predators? I have no idea. But if I get paralyzed by the lack of knowledge, I won't act. So the reason that we act in ignorance, is because that's like, that's how most human beings function through most of their life.

Like four-year-olds don't know what's going to happen next. And the problem, existential dread, so now we're going to talk a little bit about where things come from. Nice. Come from the capacity to realize

that you don't know what's coming back. So, Michael, your problem in high school was not that was actually one of knowledge, not ignorance. Okay. It's like an appreciation.

It was the knowledge that I know very little. Yeah, like you don't know what's going to happen next, which happens to most people in high school. But some people tend to get worried about it and some people don't. And generally speaking, in my experience, people who have more calculating, who have more RAM and more computing power tend to have more existential dread. What do you think about that? I don't know. I feel like many, I feel like a lot of people can experience existential dread. I don't know if it's like sheerly based on like your ability to compute information.

I do not think it's sheerly based on your ability to compute information. But you've observed that. I have observed that the smarter you are, the worse your anxieties. Okay, that's interesting. So like if you think about anxiety, what is anxiety? Anxiety is generally speaking worrying about consequences of future... I mean, worrying about future consequences of actions taken today. Present actions, yeah.

Right? So if you can foresee more problems... what do you think happens to your anxiety? Of course you have more. Yep. And now we get to something really interesting, which is if you have a part of your mind, which latches on to things and sort of hijacks them,

and you give it more food for things to hijack onto, what's going to happen? It just breeds more anxiety, of course, right? Absolutely, right? It's going to find something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely takes up a lot. large amount of, you know, the mental, the mental juice, as it were.

So when you say it takes up a large part of, I would think about it as a large part of your mental juice is generating things. Uh-huh. And the more mental juice, so there are different kinds of anxiety. So there are people, for example, with Down syndrome or other kinds of like cerebral palsy who will experience intense anxiety, even though their computing power is pretty low. But in my experience, the flavor of that anxiety is different. Okay, how so?

It's more like existential dread. So we'll get to that in a second. So some of that is more physiologic anxiety, but it's not like neurotic anxiety. So like we think about neurosis, which is the tendency to worry. So there's like neurotic anxiety, which is kind of like you worry about lots of stuff. And then some people just have feelings that they can't shape. and that feeling will latch on to anything no matter how small it is.

Okay. So that, because anxiety is not just a mental sensation as well, right? There's a physiologic component. Yeah. Your heart rate will elevate. Oh yeah, I don't have the breathing problems and all, yeah.

Exactly. And so that too, those physiologic changes will affect the function of your mind, even though the root of it may not be mind. So what I mean by that is that if you have, if your heart rate is elevated, you're going to have a sympathetic nervous response.

You're going to release adrenaline. And what adrenaline literally does to your brain is starts to increase the speed of your thoughts, make thoughts black and white, and makes your thoughts that are possibilities feel like realities. Okay. So it takes something that might be and it turns it into something that's definitely going to happen.

A certainty. Okay. And that too is evolutionary. Because once upon a time, there were two human beings who each faced a tiger. And one human being saw the danger as a possibility, and one human being saw the danger as a reality. Which human being is more likely to survive?

I want to see this as a reality. Absolutely. So adrenaline makes possibilities about the future feel real. And that's what our brain is fucking designed to do. So anyway, a physiologic anxiety can sort of reinforce certain thoughts, but there's a physiological component, there's a cognitive component, there's sort of a neurotic. I see what you're saying, yeah. I don't think we've still gotten to the source of your existential dread, but we're kind of mapping things out.

Oh, yeah, I understand it better. Okay. Any questions so far? No, no, I'm enjoying the ride. It's very interesting. I never really thought about the differences in like different types of anxieties. More nebulous or more focused. That's cool. Yeah, so I think part of the problem is that we use the word anxiety to describe, a lot of different things. Yeah, general kind of term.

So let me ask you something, Michael. By the way, how are you feeling right now? I'm fine. I'm just having a good, interesting, very interesting talk. So you feel like this is a good use of our time? Yeah, for sure. Okay. So let me ask you something.

Qualitatively, would you say that your existential dread is like roughly the same or roughly different as being concerned that people are going to think you're going to look stupid? roughly, sorry, could you repeat the question? Yeah, like, would you say that that's the same thing? Like, existential dread and, like, the way that you used to feel in high school, like when you were concerned about interpersonal interactions and looking stupid? Do those feel like different things to you, or do they feel like the same thing?

I think it's very close to the same feeling that I have. Okay. I don't know if it is the same thing, but it's close to the same feeling. Can you help us understand that feeling at all? Or is that difficult? Sure. Well, it's the gut in the gut where it, you know, wrenches up.

And, you know, it's like you're nervous. You're very, you're, you're anxious. Okay. What if this happens or you know, what if that happens? But so your existential dread also makes you feel things like physically in your, in your stomach or your gut? Is it sometimes, you know, if I'm like really nervous about something. If I'm like, I'm like, oh, man, I would really like to do this thing.

And then I like, you know, spend the whole day, you know, like being a jackass and playing ballerant then i'll be like oh fuck i i should have done that thing then i'll you know i'll be anxious i'll you know have a like i should have been doing something else it's like you know i could have done this i could have done that um yeah and then that's that's the gut feeling that that's the like the neurotic anxiety feeling okay so i'm gonna call what you just said there self-judgment i'm not going to call it anxiety okay yeah lots of self-judgment okay Okay, right? So does that sort of make sense? Like, like, you're not worried. So there's like, so let's just look at that for a second. So let's go back to Michael in high school is afraid of talking to someone because he thinks they're going to look stupid. Okay, yeah. So that is Michael being in the present and looking into the future. Got it. Self-judgment is different because it's Michael beating himself up for the past. Yes. Okay, yeah. Now, there could be a future component to that too. So I think about anxiety is something that's forward-facing.

And I think about regret is something that's backward-facing. Sometimes you can look at the past day and think about the consequences for tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely. Do you do that? Yeah. Okay. So then that I would classify as anxiety. But I think self-judgment is different.

Right? So like self-judgment is like looking at yourself and saying, I didn't do a good job. I'm not good enough. Okay. And you would say that's different from anxiety. Yes. I would describe anxiety as worrying about the future. Okay. I think I probably self-judgment is probably a proponent to it. It's like, oh, I fuck this up. Maybe, you know, the future might change due to it, you know? So, so agree. So there's like this whole cesspool of all of this negativity in all of our minds.

And so I think it's, but the point I'm making is that if you can stop the self-judgment, then your anxiety has less fuel. Okay. I think a fundamental reason, like, I don't, is because I associate self-judgment with, like, being better as, like, a person. You know, it's like, oh, why don't I do that? Oh, next time I'm all, you know, do fucking this X thing better. Yes.

So now we get to another really important thing, which is just like everything else that I've described, self-judgment serves a very important function. Uh-huh. So I think the trick. thing about being a human is that a lot of what is good for us makes us suffer okay self-judgment discipline kind of type beat absolutely right so like when i have people so i work with some people who are like very professionally academically or financially successful and boy do they beat the

shit out of themselves and it's part of the reason that they beat the shit out that's why they're successful. So the reason that like if you look at medical students, medical students are super, super anxious and highly neurotic. Actually, neurotic is a better term. And the reason for that is because like the reason they got into medical school in the first place is because when other people were out parting on a Friday night, they were afraid of doing poorly on the test. So they were at home studying. So most professional success is correlated with two. There's a thing called the five factor model. Have you heard of it before? No, I have not. Okay. So it's a, it's a well-validated personality structure that has been scientifically, like, studied quite extensively.

And basically what they found is that there are two factors. One is conscientiousness and one is neuroticism. And the higher you are in neuroticism and conscientiousness, the more professionally successful. Oh, that's interesting. That makes sense. What an awful little, so how do you deal with that? Because that sounds like a very, like, desolate piece of the human. condition where it's like the more neurotic and self-judging you are, the more successful you become. Isn't that like kind of awful? Yes. So I think desolate is a beautiful term to describe their lives. So so it's that they they have a lot of success but their life feels empty. It's actually a very good way to describe their lives. So so good, Michael, that I wonder if you have experienced that.

Yeah, you know, for sure where it's like yeah, I've uh, I taught my myself to it might have been the reason I I taught myself to code in high school was um it was it was where well the reason was because I needed a job afterwards so you know I mentioned that I picked between like psych and video editing and comp and so I chose compsci and I taught myself how to do it in high school and there was there was definitely like neuroticism behind that like I sat in my room for just like many weeks and months and just you know studied one thing and that's surely where that comes from. But, you know, I've, you know, I've been through like the, the gross, like, nine to five and all that. And it's like, like, I've realized that, you know, just like,

working constantly is a very big pitfall you can fall into. It's like, it feels safe. But if you just focus only on one thing, it's, it's detrimental to you as like a human being. So, yeah, I can, I can agree that that's where some of it comes from. I've been trying to do things different. That's actually something I'm like, I think that's on my mind a lot. It's like the balance between like doing a lot of work and not doing a lot of work and like being a human being, you know. Yeah, it's tough. And I think, you know, it's a beautiful word.

I never really thought of it that way, but their lives really are desolate. And I think that just goes to show that I think you understand more about what we're talking about than maybe you know. because I think that that, you know, your ability to conjure that word comes from understanding. Like if you think about, like, how do we know what words to use? So like... Stems from understanding. Yeah. It stems from usually from experience.

Okay. So let's just, can I try to recap for a second and keep us a little bit of focused? Yeah. Okay. So the first thought is that there's, you know, there's different kinds of anxiety, right? So there's like maybe this existential dread. I'm not even going to call that anxiety for a second. There are physiological components of anxiety.

And sometimes there are mental, there's like a neurotic kind of anxiety, which is worrying about the future. There is self-judgment, which can sort of feed anxiety, but is not exactly the same as anxiety. So self-judgment is kind of beating yourself up. And then sometimes in that process of beating yourself up, you start to worry more about the future. Because the more of a piece of shit you are, the more bleak the future becomes. Right. But interestingly enough, so those two, like, self-judgment and anxiety get together, they tango and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So one thing you can do is focus on self-judgment.

Another thing you can do is focus on being in the present because anxiety is always future thinking. So if you are thinking about the now, you cannot be anxious. Yeah. Actually, that's only true for neurotic anxiety. If you have physiologic anxiety, you can be in the now and you can still be anxious because it's a physical sensation. Yeah. Um, there's then, so we've kind of talked about that. And then the other thing that you mentioned is that there are ways to deal with it. So one way to deal with it is you put it as pushing away or distraction. Right. And another way to deal with it is to learn how to sit with it, let it be a part of you, not push it away. And that seems to help some. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sound like a pretty good summary of what we've covered? Yeah, a good recap. Okay. So now let's go back to the existential dread.

First of all, any questions? No, no. Okay. So let me ask you something. How long have you felt the existential dread? I attach the word existential to it because that's what I... Yeah, yeah. Maybe since probably like around the start, maybe the middling of high school.

Okay. I think it might have started with like how am I going to like survive after high school. Because I'm very like, I seek to be self-sufficient. I don't like to seek help. help a lot. So like I didn't, I very much didn't want to like rely on anyone after, you know, becoming an adult getting out in the world. I need, you know, something. It's just a personality trait. I have, you know, hard time asking for help. This is good aspects and bad aspects to it. Okay. So let me ask you something. How long have you been self-reliant?

What do you mean self-reliant? So like you said, how long have you not wanted to depend on other people? very long very it's i've wanted to be self-reliance and for for a long time okay can you tell me when you started to feel that way you know i i can't really pinpoint it but it's definitely like when i look back like a lot of the like conflicts i've had like like with parents for example like even before high school were stemmed from and want to be self-reliant right okay um so surely further back than high school Like, it's just kind of been, like, a personality trait that I've recognized, you know, in retrospect. Can I think for a second? Yeah, go for it.

Oh, shit. Would you say that your existential dread kind of feels like worrying that you won't be able to take care of yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Okay. Okay. Can I have another second to think?

Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what direction to go. and I'm relying on my mind to generate some idea of certainty from uncertainty. Do you see multiple paths for where to go? I do see multiple paths. It helps that we've been able to define your existential dread because that's half the problem. I didn't think we would get there. I think about it a lot.

Now the problem that I have is I feel like I know the answer. I just don't know the question. All right. You want to lead me somewhere? Yep. I have a hypothesis. I just don't know how to investigate it. Okay.

So the first thing that I want to say is that so we've talked about different kinds of ways to deal with this, right? So there's existential dread. Self-judgment amplifies things, right? So that's like a multiplying effect. Got it. There are coping mechanisms like distraction.

There are other sort of coping mechanisms like acceptance. Maybe that's not quite coping, unclear whether coping is the right word there. But there are ways to deal with the aftermath of it. There are things that amplify it. We still have not gotten to where it comes from. And there's another question,

which is, can we actually yank it out root and stem? Can we find where this feeling originates? And if we find its origin, does that help us in some way? Okay, a lot of questions. those like six questions in that sentence. Yep. I don't know.

Does finding the source of something mean that it helps? I think maybe in some way, maybe an understanding, right? Sure. But, you know, just because you, I don't know what's a good example, just because you know you're, the, you know, the fact that you have a cold doesn't mean you don't have a cold anymore. You can understand it, right? But you still have a cold.

Yeah, I think it helps for understanding. For treatment, right? If you know, if you have a cold, you go and get, you know, Sudafet or whatever. Yep. I would agree. So that's why we asked the question because let's not make the assumption that discovering the origin will fix it. The question is, does it help? Yeah, I think it, yes, it's hard to say, right?

This is not a cold. It's something else. I think it's, if it's, if it's. At the very least, it's worth trying to get to. Yeah. So let's do that. And let's see. Let's be scientific.

So let's not make assumptions that this is going to be helpful. Maybe it'll help. Maybe we can find, maybe it doesn't have an origin. Maybe it does. We don't know. All right. So you kind of said that the existential dread is like, and this is like, you said something about an anxiety about the long general future of your life. Is that also like generally speaking, could I describe that as,

worrying about whether you're going to be able to take care of yourself? In some kind of way. I, like, logically, I think with, like, I think I'll always be able to, even if worse comes to worse, like, I lose, like, everything. I don't know. I, like, you know, my credit stolen or whatever. I think from the ground up, I will be able to, like, come back from just about anything. Great. So I think that's a really important point because that tells us that that sensation of not being able or worrying about taking care of yourself doesn't come from logic.

No, no, it's a logical. Hunter, I've accepted this. Absolutely. I'm at a point where like I know that I could, you know, like get a job, you know, doing computer science somewhere. And it's like, it's not rooted in logic. Absolutely not. But it's still there. Yeah. So then we can also acknowledge another interesting consequence of that, which is that there are parts of our mind that do not originate in logic. Okay. So let's go back to this. So you said that a lot of your conflict with your parents had to do with like your desire to be independent. It's more like I recognize that I have that desire to be independent. And I can go back and see like, oh, this was, you know, this was why we had this conflict. And I'm like, oh, it's because we. it's because I wanted to be, you know, more independent. Can you give us an example? It's like, oh, okay, sure. I, in high school, very much wanted,

I decided to do, you know, computer science. And so I, instead of, so I stopped paying attention to classes in high school. Just like, kind of just, you know, I showed up, did my thing. Sometimes I'd have my computer and I was just like, I'm going to learn one thing. It's computer science, right? So that, you know, caused problems because, you know, your parents obviously once you have good grades. So that caused a large conflict where, you know, we get in touch with a counselor. Everyone's like, stop doing this, you know, pay attention in school. But that's, you know, that's an example of how I...

How did you feel when you got taken to the counselor? Oh, you know, I was a little pissed, right? Because I'm like, man, I just want a job after high school. Like, my English class isn't really helping me for for job security in the future um at least i knew i wasn't going to be you know a writer or anything so um you know a little mad but you know i just kind of ignored it yeah a little pissed right you know you're a little pissed it's like i'm trying to do this thing for job security but i understand like my mom is a first generation Filipino immigrant my dad is he is very nice but sometimes he's weird, like, as a person. And so, like, there's not always, like, a huge level of understanding between me and my parents, because, I don't know, we, different backgrounds, obviously,

it's, you know, we still, you know, love each other, obviously, you know, but, um, I kind of, you know, learned to accept that we're not always going to see eye to eye on something. And I just, you know, I kept going with what I was doing. I was, you know, fuck you guys. I'm going to keep doing this. So now we get to an interesting, in my mind, I have an interesting chicken or egg question, which is like, does the existential dread of worrying about not being able to take care of yourself

come from your independence? Or does your independence come from? Yeah, I don't know how to, I'm going to stop that question. I kind of got what I'm picking up where you're putting down. I know what you mean. Yeah, I know, I have the thought. you're trying to articulate fucking a long run it doesn't really matter but um very hard to say i don't know why they have to be like mutually exclusive

they're not mutual i think they're related i'm just trying to figure out so let me just ask a different question okay um you said that your dad is kind of a weird guy and you all have trouble seeing eye to eye on things he's he's nice it's it's like he's a nice guy he's nice my dad's nice Sure. But it's like we do not, we're very different people. I don't know how I became in that, like in my family, a very like strange person in, like in my family, I think. Yes.

Yeah. It's just not. How long have you been a strange person in your family? You know, pretty, it's since the beginning. When I say strange, it's not like, it's more like we're just kind of fundamentally different people. Me and, you know, the other. Would you say that they don't understand you? Like to what level of understanding?

Me as a person, they have some level of understanding. It's mostly they do care about me. That at least I know. I don't doubt that they're nice that they love you and they care about. You've never suggested anything suggesting there's a lack of luck. Yes. What I see, I got to put that in there so I don't sound like an asshole. Yeah.

So good. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to. No, I know. I'm just fucking listening. I know what you're asking. I don't, maybe not fundamentally. No. I think that's the answer you're looking for.

No. Yeah, I mean, it's my hypothesis, but don't just give me the answer I'm looking for. Give me the answer that's true. No, that's the answer that's true. I think you got it. You got it. Okay, so let me ask you something. What happens to a child who is not understood?

They do their own meme. They go on their own kind of adventure. And they do go on their own adventure. And what does that mean about reliance on other people? I think that leads to independence. Absolutely. What does that mean about reliance on other people? Huh?

So a child who becomes independent, how do they feel about relying on other people? Oh, I suppose you don't like it, right? Yeah. Is that how you felt? Yeah, I think in a way, yeah. So when you're super passionate about something and you're concerned about something, and then you get taken to a school counselor and you're told that you should stop doing what you're doing,

did you feel like they weren't taking your concern seriously? I don't know if it was maybe on some deeper level, not consciously, it was I like they don't understand like what I'm going for. Not consciously, but maybe on, you know, like some kind of. Yeah, so now we get to a basic problem of what we're doing. So I don't know how much I'm leading you or pushing you in a direction

because it's starting to feel that way. And also, I think the whole reason that it's not conscious, like I agree that it's not conscious, and that's why it's this weird fucking feeling of existential dread that you have no conscious understanding of where it comes from. Wow. Right? So it's tricky because now we're getting into the territory where maybe I'm putting words in your mouth

because I'm really repeating you in a particular way. You don't know if you're like hitting the nail on the head just right or if you're like leading me in a direction of that. Exactly. Or if I'm sticking a nail in. Yeah. It's hard for us to tell scientifically, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I feel like you know where I'm going, and where do you think I'm going?

What do you understand about my line of questions? Hey, well, I think your line of questioning is trying to get to the conclusion of where the dread comes from, right? Yep. Do you have any sense of what my hypothesis is? Yeah, it's somewhere along the lines of the same. you know, different as a child, must provide for themselves, or not provide, but, you know, it seeks into great independence from that independence comes a sense of dread because you're the only reliance, right?

Yep. Is that kind of where you're thinking is? Yes. Is that how you feel, Michael? I don't know. Are you leading me with questions? No, I'm asking you for. I don't know anymore now.

Sorry about that. No, no. No, but I mean, do you, no, Michael, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think yes. I think yes. So let me ask you something, Michael. And I want you to be careful about your logical mind and try to tap into your emotional mind.

Michael, do you feel alone? Sometimes. I mean, everyone does sometimes. Is that the feeling that we're talking about? Do you feel like alone? Does the future of your life, and I know logically, it doesn't include, just you. But does it feel like it's just you? Like you're the only person you can count on.

Can count on? Um, from a feelings perspective, yes. Yeah. I can be honest about that. Yeah. Yeah. From like sheer feeling, no logic. It's like, I know they're like this, you know, a great support group around me logically. But feelings wise, right now, it's like, I know at least I can always count on me, right? Yep. So now let me ask you something. Okay, so I'm not going to ask, I'm just going to say. Okay, so I'm going to stop asking leading questions because I think, I don't know how much I'm biasing you. I don't think I am. I think you're speaking honestly.

Yeah. But let me run you through my hypothesis and we can look at it as scientists. Okay. So the first thing is like, who worries about not being able to take care of themselves? Oddly enough, you may think that it's people who lack faith in themselves, but it's funny because that's not where that comes from. Okay. the worry about not being able to take care of yourself is built on an assumption that other people are not going to be around as well. Okay.

Yeah. No, I follow you. Does that make sense? I think that's actually where this comes from. Because why do you live in a world where you are the only person that you can rely on? And we see threads of that like in your independence. Uh-huh. Like we see that like this is part like I think the reason that this

Existential dread is so hard for you to understand is because I think it formed it is it's a primitive formation Okay. And the reason it's primitive is because it was formed when you were very young Okay. So generally speaking when our mind forms certain ideas about ourselves that idea Harries the maturity at which it was born I I okay right so like if I if I sit down and I draw a picture at the age of four, that picture stays that way. Yeah, it's a very young thought. It's like a very carnal thought, right? Absolutely. Concept. Right? Like you're just like there's no one. And then like if we think about it. So then my next thought is that, okay, so, you know, who is it that worries about

not being able to take care of themselves? Is it a lack of confidence? We don't get any of that from you. I mean, do you, would you say you lack confidence in yourself? Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. No, I know I come off as like a confident person. I'm an incredibly unconfident person. Okay. So maybe I just, I miss the boat entirely. So here's, because the reason I ask that question is because now we have to, we have to question my assumptions. So worrying about not being able to take care of yourself comes from two places. One is a lack of faith in yourself. Okay. And the second is a lack of faith in others. Because you're the only person that you can rely. It sounds like I just lack faith across the board. Sure.

general sense. Yep. And that's what happens to people when they're young. They have general swaths of beliefs about the way that the universe works. And those thoughts stay that way. They stay that way. And then as we grow old and we're mature, like we have logical things that tell us because how old are you now, Michael?

22. Okay. So you're 22, right? So you have 22-year-old logic that tells you this is not shit that you have to worry about. But there's like five-year-old Michael who's like, I can't count on myself and I can't count on anyone else. And I think those are actually related. Sick.

That's badass. That's so fucking cool. How like, I've never really thought about that. So do you personally, do you ever, like, replace those thoughts in your head? Like, say you have, like, a core understanding about yourself that was formed at a very young age. Do you, is, like, your goal to replace that with the logic of an older, smarter you? or like what do you do about that? You personally.

Like do you ever go back and you're like, I develop this worldview young? Am I going to change it now? How does that work? Can I ask a question before I answer yours? Yeah, sure. You said that's badass, which is not the response I was expecting. Oh, it's cool. What's cool?

I like learning about this. Okay. I like, it's. It's interesting, right? What is this? Isn't it interesting? I agree. I agree.

About that concept of, you know, you're young and you, like, because I just gained a little understanding about myself, right? Ooh, that's bad ass. That's cool, right? Okay. So now, now, Michael, we're going to rewind a little bit. Sorry, I have a couple more questions. I'm happy to answer yours.

Okay, so don't let me get away from that. All right. I got it. I'm making a note. So now we get to the earlier question, which is does understanding help? Remember we asked this earlier? So you've gained a little bit of understanding. do you think it helps?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay. Yeah. Right? Do you remember what your earlier answer was? It was uncertainty. Absolutely. So now we get to an even more interesting question, which is how on earth are you saying, like literally 10 minutes ago, it was uncertainty.

And now your answer is literally for sure. Now I have the, now I have the reaction to finding the root of that. Or at least some strand of that. In what way do you feel like you've been helped? Because you do feel you feel helped. Yeah. Well, I feel a level of understanding, which is in this case, made me feel helped, right? Yeah.

So maybe we can explore that down the road. But I think that in and of itself is going to be part of your answer. So you have to understand what has changed in you because something just changed. Okay. That'll help us understand like the science of how this shit works. okay okay so we can table that first maybe we can go back to that because we still need to kind of go back to existential but your question was do i go back and and remap the short answer is like absolutely okay so here's the reason why so like when we think about like so man i just okay i've always like wondered how the

the psychologist psychology is their self no this is a catch 22 i yeah well I think, you know, you know what I mean. I'll buy Dr. K. Yeah, chat, chat, jam, spam, spam like a little, little pep-o-g mode. Okay, Michael. Can I go into teaching mode? Yeah. Do you understand how the shit works?

I'll tell you how it works. Okay. So, it's funny, I was teaching this like an hour ago. To who? Huh? To whom? To our coaches. So this is what I teach our coaches.

Oh, nice. Okay. So we're going to try this. Let's see. So your question, let me just make sure I remember it, okay? So your question, hold on, hold on a second. Let me just think about what we're saying. Let me think about how to teach this and help you understand.

And I may just recap for my own benefit, if that's okay. Yeah. Okay. So something, you just learn something. So like what just happened? And then your question was, do I go back and like reanalyze things from the past? And then does that help me in some way? And the answer is yes.

Okay. So here's what I'd like to do. I'd like to explain like how that works in your mind. Okay. So the engineering portion of it. Not necessarily like the psychology. This is more about like the science of the mind. All right.

So here's my general hypothesis about it. Somewhere along the way, you grew up and like your parents were not able to like relate to you or understand you in a way that made you feel quite isolated. It doesn't mean they didn't love you. Yeah, yeah. And I think we sort of hear that when you say like your dad was kind of weird. Right. Like what does that mean? That means that like it's not that he's weird to you.

It's that you're weird to him. Like weirdness is like a two person game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So, so like there's some kind of fundamental disconnection. where I suspect when you were young and we can see if this is the case. I mean, this is also one of those things that's like,

it's probably true of everyone. But so you have to be careful about whether you have a story like this. But like I would suspect that in your past, there were several times when you were quite young. And like, people did not fundamentally, like, understand. And this school counselor's story is a fantastic example. Because you knew something that was deeply important to you.

And people told you you were fucking wrong. wrong. That's how you feel alone in the world. When the people who are supposed to help you and support you and understand the way that you feel tell you that you're fucking wrong for feeling that way and you need to start studying English. They just don't understand. Like they just don't understand it. And you just don't understand them. That is a world where everyone speaks a language that you don't speak. Okay. And then the world becomes a fucking scary place and the future becomes uncertain because you know you're going to screw up at some time, but people, the reason that people have faith in the future is not just because of themselves. It's because of the people

around them. Now, the interesting thing, there's another interesting. So then the world becomes a scary place and it's hard to like have faith in the future because you don't know if you can count on people. Like that's what it comes down to. Yeah. And the future is filled with dread. Like there's a general dread if you live in a world where you can't count on other people. Oh. Is that? And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. So please, God say no.

And it was helpful when you said, yeah, I don't have any confidence in myself. But like, I mean, is that how you feel? Do you feel like in the future, when you think about your future, is it a multiplayer game or is it a single player game? I'm not talking about what you think. I'm talking about what you feel. I mean, I think my worldview of it is like, is that like it's always like I can always depend on myself right and any supplement to that is just like is a bonus right yeah like being able to depend on anyone else is like a great

bonus but sure it's not something that I see is like like a hugely necessary or not not necessary not sorry not saying it's like not necessary I want other people in my life right yeah so here's what I'm hearing okay what I'm hearing is it's it's not a multiplayer game. It's a single player game with NPCs. Oh, that makes me sound like an asshole. Yeah, so we have to be careful, Michael. I don't think you're an asshole at all.

I'm saying that I think that's the way you're describing it, right? Because it's not an asshole. It doesn't mean that you don't care about other people. It doesn't mean that other people care about you. It's that there is a corner of your mind that feels like at the end of the day, if other people are around and they do nice things for me, that's supplemental. It's extra. But at the core of the being, like, it's just you.

Yeah, I think a good way of putting it is like, like, I don't, like, there's not, like, I don't rely. Yeah, like, rely on other people for survival. Yep. I guess bringing it down to its, like, most basic thing. Yeah. So now we get to another important point, which is where do people learn to not rely on others for survival? Because generally speaking, that's what we do, right? Like, we rely on this for survival.

Yeah, yeah, it's a... So my hypothesis is that this is a learned thing for you. For you, you learned at some point that you kind of couldn't count on others because I think you were young. So you also, like, you may be a genius. And sometimes this happens. Like, I'm not saying that to, like, you know, like make you feel good about yourself or anything. But, like, I noticed that... So one of my teachers once told me that kids with high IQ are actually special needs kids.

What do you think about that? That's very interesting. You know, actually, I'm inclined to agree with you for some people, because I definitely went to school with some very smart people who were just different, right? Like, genius. I went to school with some, like, really smart people. And some of them were, like, I guess not normal, but do you know what I mean? like yeah so but others were like like different people you know yeah so so i'm smart

i think i think what i the point there is that i think that like kids who are smarter or just think different it's not like i mean we make smarter like we place a value judgment and i want to steer clear a value judgment i don't think you're a bad person i don't think you're an asshole in fact everything that i've heard about you makes you sound like you're a wonderful guy and and you know i don't think that you don't love your parents and i don't think that you don't love your I don't think your parents love you. But I think we have to look at the mind as what it is and like try to not let our judgments interfere with what we see. Yeah.

And in my experience, there are some people who have, like, I think you're a special needs kid. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, I think you had special needs growing up. Like, I think that when you're programming, when you're teaching yourself to program in high school, because you're worried about a job, you have some needs that other fucking high school kids who are sure that they're going to be fine for the rest of their life don't have. Okay. I'm not saying you're dumber. In fact, I think that that's a special need that comes from... I understand what you're trying to say. Yeah, I really do. God, it sounds funny when you put it like that. No, but really, like, that's...

Like, it blew my mind when they were like... And she's like, you know, smart kids are special needs kids because they have special needs. You can't treat them like everyone else. you know like yeah if you try in fact if you try to treat them like everyone else which is exactly what your parents and your counselor did it's harmful

oh yeah it's a problem I think it a lot of it boils down to like the way that we perceive what schooling in general should be and how it you know

I'm sure you've had a million talks about how schooling is broken and it just um benefits one type of like learner one type of kid. I think a lot of it boils down to that because I'm not I'm not very good at schooling. Yep. Personally. So that's that that supports your your idea. Yeah. Because I did very bad poorly in all manner of school. So yeah. So I think so kind of going back to your earlier question about okay like what do we do about it? Right. So like now do you go back

and you reprogram things? Absolutely. So I'm sorry I'm bouncing around a little bit. Is it okay if we go back to that? No, no, it's interesting. Yeah, go back. Hey, it works. Okay. We were trying a new format, and I wasn't sure if it was going to work. But thankfully, our producers and our geniuses on the Healthy Gamer team.

Oh, wow, this is great. Okay. Okay. So, here's the idea. Okay, so the first thing is we have different parts of our mind. Okay, so the first part of our mind is called Manas. and so this is the emotional mind and it is the part of our mind that likes or dislikes

and it is the part of the mind that reacts. Okay. So let me ask you this, Michael. What's the most recent food that you tried for the first time? Maybe some like, like time-wise? Yeah, like what's just like a new food? that you've tried something?

Maybe. I think it was like eel. Okay. Did you like it? Yeah, it was pretty good. I'm not a big, I'm a very piggy eater. Okay. But I, yeah, it was all right.

Okay, so let me ask you something. How long did it take you to like it or dislike it? I don't remember every tasting it before. This is like my first recollection of trying eel. Yeah. It's like, just I bit into it. It was, I don't usually like seafood. so it had a little barrier to it, but it tastes good.

It tastes like chicken. How long did it take you to like it or dislike it? A few seconds. Even that long? Maybe one second. Right, so it happened fast, right? Mechanically one second, yes. Yeah, like, okay, so less than one second, okay?

And so if we think about, you know, let's say like, so the monas tends to act fast. It's the first part of the mind. So it's usually zero to one second is when the minus activates. So if we think about liking or disliking something, there's nothing logical about it. There's nothing rational about it. It's just like you put it in your mouth and you're like, that's good or that isn't good. Similarly, if we think about emotional situations, those two can be kind of, you know, they tend to be instant. So if you like, you know, if someone walks up to you and you're in high school and you're like, you know, someone's been bullying you and you see them in the hallway, your emotional reaction.

your emotional reaction happens like in less than a second. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so then what happens is like sometimes we'll have an emotional reaction. Like you have this sense of existential dread. And then sometimes you'll use your rational mind to try to fight it. Okay.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So like but your rational mind is so you say you don't like secret. So did you fight a little battle with yourself before you try to eel? Yeah. And so what were the two parts of your mind? How would you kind of describe it? You know, like a guttural.

I don't like seafood. And then just try it. Forehead. It's food. It's, you know, try different foods. Experience new things kind of mean. Yeah, man. Experience new things.

Okay. So the thing to notice is that like I like this word guttural. Sure. good with words, Michael. Thank you. It's cool. So the monus is kind of gutter. It's visceral and it's like reactionary.

And then our buddi, which is, so this is kind of our emotional mind. That's the other way you can think about it. And then our buddi is like our analytical mind or our intellect. Okay. Okay. So then like you have this little war where your munis is like, I don't like it.

And then your buddhi's like, just try it, man. Like experience your things. Come on bro. And then they fight a little war. and then depending on, you know, which one wins, you'll either try the eel or you won't try the eel. Okay. So the interesting thing is like, so how well developed do you think your Budti is when you're young?

Not at all. Absolutely. How well developed do you think your Manas is when you're young? All the way. Not all the way, but it is in control. Yep. And so as you get older, Manas may stay roughly the same, but Budi changes over time.

Okay. That's the difference between old and young. Mm-hmm. Okay. And so the interesting thing is that, you know, the thoughts and impressions that are laid down in the mind at a young age are going to be like low Buddhist thoughts. They're not going to be like nuanced or understood. They're going to be like, so the existential dread, is that like a monas or a Buddhist thing? Sounds like a monas thing.

Absolutely. Right? So it's like just this like raw sort of guttural, beautiful word. sort of sense within you. So now I'm going to run you through a couple examples. So let's say that... So this is my favorite example. I'm trying to come up with another one,

but we're going to use this one because that's the best one I can think of. So let's say that I'm walking down the street with my four-year-old and she sees a dog. And she pets the dog, and the dog kind of turns around and like nips at her a little bit. Mm-hmm. What do you think the first thing that happened?

What's the first thing that happens in her mind? Fear. Then dog bad. Right? Fear. Don't like. Okay. So that's her monas.

Reacts from zero to one second. Got it. And then what's the next thing that happens in her mind? Dog bad. Okay. It's funny. I had the same problem teaching with this example earlier. Because most of the people that we teach don't have kids.

So what does my daughter do? probably seeks refuge with her parents Absolutely Seeks refuge with her parents Is such a you know 22 year old thing to say What does she actually do Cries and hugs her

Father or mother Absolutely Hugs Daddy pick me up So this is a thought Right She tells me daddy pick me up She holds up her arms

So at this point This is actually her booty But it's like not very well developed okay okay and then so so then what happens is like I say oh you know like I check her out turns out that you know the dog was just sniffing her wasn't actually biting her and then she cries I comfort her a little bit

and then I say oh look there's an ice cream shop do you want some ice cream? And then she says yes 10 minutes later she's got ice cream in her hands and what's going on in her mind? She's happy with ice cream absolutely and what kind of thoughts is she having do you think? Um, none about the dog. Absolutely.

She's just having normal thoughts. She's telling me about... She's vibrating with ice cream, yeah. She's eating the ice cream. She's telling me about this picture that she colored. She's telling me about, like, you know, how she's, like, played with the ball yesterday, just like normal thoughts. Yeah. Okay.

So now let me ask you something. Mike, Michael. Where did these feelings? feelings go? The feelings about the dog? Mm-hmm. Are they gone? Well, they probably manifested in some...

They're probably... She remembers them, right? Sure. Like, in some way, she has a fear. The next time she sees a dog, she'll probably be more cautious. Exactly, right? So the next time she sees a dog,

so the next day we're walking down the street, she sees a dog. What happens in her mind? that the dog bit me last time that's not the first thing that happens in her mind is it fear absolutely

right so she freaks the fuck out and if you guys have like dealt with kids who are scared of dogs like you know it like all they have to do is just see the dog

and then they start freaking out right and so the question is like where does that fear come from from that previous experience So where did the fear go between here and here? Somewhere in her head, right? Absolutely.

So this gets stored in her unconscious mind is something called a Sumsky. Sumsky? S-A-M-S-S-K-A-R-A. S-A-R-A. So this is a ball of undigested emotion. Okay. Okay. And so now let's think about you. So let's say Mike, Michael, you're going down the street and you see a dog and you pet the dog and the dog bites you. What's the first thing that happens in your mind? Ow, dog bad. Fear, fear, fear. Fear, right? Okay. So then then you have a thought. Your first thing is a reaction. Dog bad. And then what happens in your mind?

The reaction? Move away from the dog. Sure, you move away. You mean after that? Yep. What comes after that? What do you think after you move away from the dog? Dog bad.

I hate that dog. Okay. All right. I don't know. What comes after that? So, like, you may check to see if you're hurt. Okay. Right?

And then you may, like, start to think about the situation. Yes. Like, what kind of thoughts would you have about the situation? I wonder whose dog that was that I just went up and pet and bit me. Yep. I wonder if I need to go to the hospital for a rabies shot. Yep. Why did the dog bite me?

Yep. Lots of thoughts. Yep. And then how are you feeling in 10 minutes? Probably okay. I'm probably chilling. Okay. And then you're feeling okay. Great.

So now What happens the next time you see a dog? Probably since I You know more developed I will think that is not the same dog Unless it is in which case it's an asshole What's the first thing that happens in your mind? Oh probably again fear

Yep And then what happens If it's not the same dog I may try to pet it again. Okay, hold on, hold on. Is it the same dog? Yeah, if it is, that's a problem. Right, but that's a thought.

Yeah, yeah. So now, like, even though you get this some degree of fear, your response to it is different, right? So this is like lower fear. Got it. So the question is, like, why does my daughter react with essentially the same amount of fear and you react with less fear. That is her question. Yep.

My worldview is different from your body. Okay. So what changes? Why is your worldview different from her worldview? Because I understand it's not the same. Unless it is the same dog, in which case, why is it? Okay. So when you say I understand what part of the mind and where in this process does your understanding come from?

The booty, right? Is that what we're trying to go for? All right. so this is also the part of the process that's different right here okay so like what you do here is some amount of processing okay you like you essentially go from fear to feeling okay and what's in the middle is this so you kind of like process with yourself and then you're kind of like okay maybe i shouldn't pet dogs on the street you kind of work through the problem and then you're feeling okay and then you make

still have a visceral reaction, but then you're not going to, like, it's not going to be exactly the same. Whereas for her, like this, this step, it's the 10 second to 10 minute that I did what? What did I do for her? You went and got ice cream afterwards, right? Destruction. Right? So this is processing. These are the important questions. If you don't have a chance to like sit down and think about what happened to you and what you did right and what you did wrong and what the dog is, then you may be left over with a sumscar. But when you use distraction or like a parent, you know, like, you know, distracts you from it, then that fear basically goes dormant as a sumscar and then rises up again.

Okay. If you treat it with distraction. If you treat it with distraction. And this is what we'll call processing. Okay. Okay. So now we think about, now we go back to your earlier question, which was, do I go back and think about stuff that happened to me when I was young? Abs a fucking loop.

Okay. And what I do as an adult is this. I add this step over here. Oh. So I recall an experience. So I'll tell you one. So this too makes my dad sound like kind of an asshole, but he's not an asshole. He's a great guy.

So when I was 13, I started a business. Got it. And what I did is I started a BBS. You know what that is? No. So BBS is something called a bulletin board system. So this is in the days before the internet. You had a dial-up connection and you had a server.

And what would happen is like people would use their dial-up connection to call your house. It would connect to your computer, which was a server. And your server, like you had some persistent thing. So people could log on to like my server and they could play different kinds of games. They could post on forums. They could post like pictures and things like that. And that they had to log off and only one user could log on at the time. Oh, wow.

Okay. Well, that's cool. All right. And that's like the early days of the internet before it was like a persistent universe. Like you had to log on to one person's server and you had to interact with them. Yeah. Yeah. And so I ran a BBS and I charged people $10 a month, which was a ridiculous amount of money back then for access to my BBS.

And I had like 13 people. Sorry, $10 a week. And then I had 13 people that would be like users on my BPS and I was making $130. a week back in like 19 like 94 or something so after a couple and the interesting thing so I was lucky enough to have parents who were wealthy

and so I never really like needed money for anything like I never had an allowance or whatever if my grades were good I got whatever I wanted if my grades were bad I didn't get whatever I wanted all I ever wanted was video games so it was like sort of simple I wasn't like very materialistic I just yeah yeah and so I had kind of like tiger parents who were like sort of like yeah

you can't play games unless you're your grades So I had this like ton of like so I knew money was good but I didn't really have any use for money. So I just the wad of cash. I had like hundreds of dollars just like sitting somewhere. And I like hit it. But one day like my dad found and then like he comes to me and he's like what is this. And then I told him that I started a business. And then he said can any idea what he said? Did he ask if you were selling drugs? Yeah. So I explained what the business was. Good. Yep. I tell you, he was not impressed with the business. Yeah, so it's funny, right? So actually, I think he was impressed, and he still shut it down. He was like, you shouldn't be doing this right now. You should be focusing on your studies. But I remember now that he was kind of smiling when he said it, because he could tell that I was a clever kid, but he still shut it down and he took my money away. The money had no value to me, but he took it away. And so I was like, okay, well, I guess like, you know, whatever. And so years later, I was, I guess I still am.

So I was a faculty at a particular academic institution. And there was someone at the academic institution who had been very supportive for me. So they had actually been like supportive to me when I was a medical student. And they even like, you know, were supportive to me in terms of figuring out where I went to become a psychiatrist. And so they'd really like, they'd been nothing but nice. and then I had started to develop something at a hospital that I was at that was like pretty good and pretty robust and was doing very well. And for some reason I became paranoid that like this person was going to try to take credit for it. And it was really, really bizarre, but like it's like it's what worried me.

And I was I was going through some training slash and part of that training was to kind of be in my own therapy. And so I was I was talking with someone who is a therapist. and we were kind of talking about it. They're like, okay, so just pick something so that we can work on it. And I said, okay, well, this is what's bothering me right now. Like, I'm afraid that this guy's going to like take credit for my work. And as we dug into it, I realized like, this is completely idiotic.

The guy has done nothing but be supportive for years. Why on earth do I think that he's going to take something that's mine? And what we kind of came down to is like, oh, I have this sumscar of people who are like positive figures in my life. taking away what I have built. And it's really bizarre because no one had ever triggered this before because the person has to be like in order for my mind to associate this situation with what happened to me in the past,

like they have to meet certain requirements, right? Like it can't be a cat. It has to look like a dog. Yeah, it needs to be like your father, like someone you trust. Exactly. Someone I trust, someone who cares about me. And I'm building something that is wildly successful.

successful. And then they're going to take it away because this is what happens because that's how the brain learns. Because my brain learned, hey, when these things happen, you get fucked. So watch out because you're going to get fucked. And so now we get to your question, which is do you go back and do you analyze it? And the answer is abs so fucking looping. Because if you want your source of existential dread to go away, I'm glad you feel helped by it.

Okay, I'm going to switch back to the other way out. Do you have questions about this format or like anything that I'm... I mean, sorry, questions about the diagrams or any of those terms or anything? Sorry, have we been using diagrams? Oh, shit. Man, I just been watching you talk about your Sumskars for the last 20 minutes. Okay. Oh, it feels like school all over again.

Oh, see, there's a Sussar. What diagrams? Okay, here. show you. Oh, God. I'm so sorry, Mike. Hold on. Let me do this. Oh, God. I screwed up. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. I will rectify it. Oh, shit.

So everyone watching at home knows this because I've been doing diagrams. Okay. I'm glad that they got the diagrams. Okay. Share this. Okay. There. I've been writing. I've been taking notes. Oh, wow. Okay. So let me, let me run through this. quick, okay? Let's catch up. My apologies. Can you see this now? It's fine. Yes, I can see this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Lulzing. Okay. So here's the first thing. So between zero and one second, you know, the monas happens first. So it's emotional. It has likes and dislikes. It reacts. It's

guttural. The booty is analytical. And it, it, this was kind of the war that we talked about between, oh, you don't like seafood and then you were telling yourself, just try it. Yeah. Okay. So then we get to the first scenario, which is my dark. daughter. So this is daughter. Mm-hmm. So in the first second, between zero and one second, we have monas. Okay, so this is monas. And then we have thoughts after that. So this is where Budhi activates.

Okay. Wow, dude, you're a boss if you were following this without seeing the diagrams. You know, it might have been easier. Like, I'm not, I'm not great at looking at diagrams. Okay. I kind of like the personal rhetoric. style. Sure. Okay. So then what happens is distraction, right? I give her ice cream and then she's happy. And then what happens is this fear lives in the unconscious as a sumscar and that it emerges the next time we see a dog. Right? And in your case, this part is the same. This part is the same.

But then your booty steps in and this critical step and helps you process. And then you end up feeling okay. And then the next time you see a dog, you still have that reaction, but then you don't freak out again because you've sort of processed some of that emotion, so the sum scar is smaller. Okay, got it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. We're going to go back to this and then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this. Okay. Sorry about not showing you the diagrams. No, no, it's fine. So you asked me a question, do I go back and re-examine things? that happened to me in my life, and the answer is absolutely yes. Okay.

Can you bring back to yourself? Huh? I'm just looking at myself right now. Oh. It's very introspective mirror kind of. Sorry. Okay. That helps.

So now what I would encourage you to do is to think a little bit about like, you know, where this sense. So this is what you've got to do is like go back. I can think about like times in your life where you felt alone. And you felt like the only person. you could rely on was yourself. Because I would bet money that that's the way that you felt when you got walked into the counselor's office.

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Right. And so like that strengthens the sum scar. That's like you being bit by the dog the second time. And so the reason that you're feeling of existential dread is so pervasive is because you've been bit by a dog hundreds of times. Okay.

And so your sum scar is quite large. now. And you have, it lives with you all the time. It doesn't even need a trigger. It's just like there all the time. Okay. And I'm sure you can imagine that if you've been bit by a dog hundreds of times, you don't even need to see a dog to feel anxious about dogs. Yeah. It's just like there could be a dog. Yeah. And, and so I would encourage you to think back like, you know, can you imagine, can you remember the first time that you felt like your parents, like you couldn't count on your parents. And I know we're making them sound like assholes.

I'm not saying they're assholes. No, I know. My dad was a good person, but everyone winds up with some scars. It's just how it works. It's because our mind is not well-formed. I can't think back that. I don't know. I had a similar experience to you where I started a small business,

not as smart. I was selling sodas at school. But they shut that down. Very similar, actually. I don't think that. That's it, though. I don't know. I can't think back to... So tell me about your dad being weird. He's just, he's funny in social situations with other people.

Definitely not, he's, he's a, you know, like, um... Is he funny with you? When you say, I, I, what do you mean by funny? Whatever you mean by fun. What do I mean by funny? Yeah. You said he's funny with other people in social situations. I'm like, what about you? Like, I don't think he, he's not very good at social norms like when talking to people.

Okay. Okay. That's what I mean by funny. That's what I mean by weird. It's not like, not very good of social cues a lot of time. Okay. At least not in the way I think. Okay.

So that's a whole other conversation. So I think that makes sense in terms of, of some of your self-reliance because it sounds like there may be some. So a lot of confidence comes from empathic mirroring. Okay. So if we think about like- Finding something else to mirror from? Huh?

Like from something else? Yeah. So like the way that a child learns to move confidently in the world basically has to do with how secure they feel with their parents. And how secure they feel with their parents depends roughly. on how much their parents impact, like mirror their emotions. Okay. So when a child like, like the world is a safe place,

when I bump my head and I hurt and my parents run over and scoop me up and express concern, then the world like becomes a safe place. Because when I'm hurt, there are people there that express concern and like that makes sense. Because the world reacts the way that I feel. Does that sort of make sense?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so a lot of times confidence happens when, confidence problems happen when there are parents who can't mirror what a child's emotional needs are. Because then the world becomes a confusing place where, shockingly, the only person you can rely on is yourself. Because the rest of the world doesn't get me. Yeah, the rest of the world doesn't react the way you feel. Yeah.

I see what you mean. And so then you become a pillar. It becomes a single player game and you can't count on other people. Okay. So I wonder a little bit about, you know, whether that plays into this because you're saying that your dad doesn't like pick up on social cues. So also. Yeah, I mean, unclear. It's just another piece that could contribute.

Yeah. So that, by the way, is attachment theory if you're interested in reading. Like attachment theory sort of talks about like how security from a child comes from empathic mirroring of parents. That's interesting. Okay. Yeah. So in terms of practically, what do you, so questions for me. Actually, let's start there. No, not really. Okay. So let me try to give you like, so you're, one of your questions is like, okay, maybe, I don't know if this is one of your questions, but what do I do about it? Okay, yeah, that's a good standard. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, try to notice that feeling of existential grad whenever it's there and try to first of all analyze it with your Buddha because the more you analyze it with your Buddha,

I mean, not just And sometimes analysis involves like sitting with it too But really like re-experiencing it And then like be a shepherd for yourself Okay So imagine that there's like six year old Michael Or 13 year old Michael who's getting taken into the counselor's office And imagine the way that you felt

And then imagine that there's like 22 year old Michael Who's like older and can be reliable And if nothing else if you can't rely on anyone else, you can at least rely on 22-year-old Michael. Okay, yeah. And 22-year-old Michael is, like, going to go back and tell 13-year-old, hey, man, like, I know a lot of people don't understand you, bro. And I know you feel alone and isolated, but, like, it's okay. And you're going to be okay.

And you don't have to be alone in this world. And there are people that love you. Mm-hmm. Okay. How do you feel about that? I like that, like, being your own kind of pillar to mirror back on. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I like this. So when you think about, when you feel that way, that feeling of existential dread, see if you can do that with yourself or see if this feeling reminds you of something in your past. Okay. And then sit down and like think through it in that way. Okay. Okay. And then if you do that over time, I think what's going to happen is the feeling of existential dread will get better.

Okay. I like this. And my hope is that you don't have to feel that way all the time. Yeah, it'd be nice. Yeah. And then the last thing that I'll point out is that I don't know exactly how you had that moment of feeling helped. And then you said, for sure, it helps. I don't know what that was.

But I think if you continue doing this, it'll result in more of whatever happened for just a fraction of a second. That's the way you cultivate more of those responses. And you're sure at help. Like you're like, yeah, for sure, it helped. And then as you do that for a while, I don't know exactly how it works, but it helps. And then one day you're going to wake up and it's like not going to be that big of a deal. Okay. I like this.

How you feel? I'll try that out. I'm feeling good. Yeah. Okay. Also, if you need some guidance in this kind of thing, so the other thing is that that, you know, that emotional processing that Wuti does, therapy also basically works on that principle. So it's one of the ways. So the other thing you can think about is if you, huh?

Helping you process. Yeah. So like that's how that model of the mind, like that's how I understand what therapy is doing. Okay. So you can also think about seeing a mental health professional depending on how bad it is. Okay. I mean, I consider, I'm, despite that, I'm a generally pretty happy person. Yep, I can tell.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but maybe, I mean, if it helps, I could consider it. I'll, you know, try it on my own first. Yeah, just think through it. Yeah. Any other questions for me or thoughts? Not really.

I mean, yeah, I enjoyed the talk. Cool. Very insightful. Learned a lot. Interesting. Sometimes I teach people how to meditate. Are you interested in doing that today? Sure.

Yeah, I've tried meditation before. I don't know like what are there different types of meditation yeah because I've done the one where you just like try to empty all thoughts and just try and be completely present that and that's the one I've tried before it's nice okay you do like a different kind of one yeah I do a lot of different kinds of meditation depending on what the goals are okay so there are some meditations that are more cognitive some meditations that are more physical some meditations that are more psychological, some meditations that are more spiritual. Okay. What are you recommend? What are you, what do you want? What do you want to be different about? I think, I think acting, being in the present more would definitely help. Because I act a lot in the past and in the, you know, thoughts of the future. So, something to help you be in the present. Okay. Are you up for doing something that's a little bit more physical? Sure. Are you okay feeling a little bit silly on stream? Yeah, I'm going to like

twerk on the, it's like kind of like a one of those. What is that? Nothing, nothing. Nothing. Yeah, no, we'll go for it. Okay, so I'm going to ask you to push your chair back. Sure. And I'm going to ask you to stand up. Okay, hold on. I'm going to take off my headphones, okay? Okay. Oh, he can't fucking hear that, Kenny. I can't hear you, but that's okay. Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I want you to close your eyes. Okay. All right. Just stand up straight. And now I want you to, your mind to just go where it goes. So like start thinking about the past. Start thinking about the future. Think about what you're going to be doing next. I still can't hear you, but whatever. be peeing soon.

Okay, so just think about the future, think about the past. Think about what you're going to do later today. Think about who you're going to see. Now I want you to open your eyes and look at me. Okay, now I want you to do this. Raise your arms above your head. Okay.

And then I want you to take your right foot and put it above your right knee. Good. And now I want you to close your eyes and think about who you're going to see later. How do you bounce like this? Okay, so go and come back down.

So as you adopt the position, so now we're going to do it again, we can try with the left foot. As you adopt the position, I want you to notice that your mind is going to force you into the president. Okay. You're not going to be able to think about other things. Okay, so let's try again. Just try to maintain the position. You can open your eyes, open your eyes, open your eyes, good. And focus.

What are you thinking about? Balancing? Yeah, he can't fucking hear me. Why am I talking? That's fine. I can't hear when you speak like that. So just notice what you're thinking about, right? Yes.

I feel the present. I feel pretty focused on right now. It's hard to do this and not be focused on right now. Okay, we can't hear you, but that's okay. Oh, I know. He can't fucking hear me. Okay, so go ahead and come on that. Okay, so now, all right, what were you thinking about when you were balancing?

about balancing. I was thinking about balancing. So now I'm going to ask you an interesting question. So were you actually thinking about balancing or were you focusing on balancing? What's the difference? That's what I mean. So like when I'm eating food, I can think of eating food or I can actually just enjoy the food. Uh-huh. Did that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. The difference. Were you like thinking like, oh, this is me balancing or were you just like your attention? I was doing the act of balancing. So that's how you come to the present. Because you can't be in the past of the future when you're doing that. Yeah, it was a mechanically difficult thing, so I had to be focused on it.

Yes. Okay, I understand why that. And so easy mode is with your eyes open. So your sense of balance comes from three neurological parts. It comes from your vestibular system, which is in your ears. It comes from your eye. And it comes from your dorsal columns or your proprioception

or your sensation of like position in space. Okay, positioning. Yeah, I got it. Okay. So the interesting thing is that if you close your eyes, it becomes more difficult to balance because you're losing... Yeah, you're not focusing on one spot. You're losing one of those three, right? Yeah.

So it becomes harder. So at the beginning, if you need to balance with your eyes open, go for it. And then at some point, you're going to get good at it. And then your mind will start to wander and you won't need to focus anymore. And when your mind starts to wander, close your eyes. And then it'll become harder. Okay. So in general, I think, Michael, for whatever reason, I feel like maybe body is a good way for you to focus in the present.

So I'll also tell you like, do you do yoga? No, I do not. Okay. So I think about maybe learning yoga. And the reason to learn yoga is because yoga is not about, like, it's not about physical health. The reason that yoga was developed is because when you do a yoga posture, it's not about how much you stretch. it's about focusing your mind on the present. So the reason that people do yoga is because when they do yoga properly,

you can't think about anything else. Just about yoga. Yes. And so what you want from yoga is a position that is stable and brings your mind to the present. And that way, if you have a position that you can hold for 10 minutes and it brings your mind to the present, then you can be in the present for 10 minutes.

And it's like O.P to just use. use your body to force yourself to do that. You don't have to have to worry about emptying your mind. Like you can try as hard as you want to think about stuff and you won't be able to. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. That's very interesting.

I didn't realize yoga was developed with that intent. Yep. That's cool. You can also do like other things. Like you can just go like this. I'll try it out. And then if you just hold this for a while, soon like you can think about things, but as your arms get tired,

they're going to start to demand your attention. Then you just hold it. Using your body to force attention. Yeah, you just hold it for a while. And at some point, your body's going to be like, hey, put our arms down. And you're going to be like, nope, not yet. And then you're going to be focused on, so just focus on the sensation. You won't be able to think about anything else.

Okay. That's why exercise is therapeutic. Got it. That may be different, but that's okay. All right, yeah, I'll try it out. Any last thoughts or questions before you wrap up, Michael Reeves? No, I think it was pretty fun, productive. I enjoy talking. Thank you for the, appreciate it, having me on. Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on. And yeah, man, I'm a big, I like you a lot.

Thank you. Have you ever, when you're talking about the ear thing, the inner ear for balance, have you ever seen those, you can stimulate the inner ear with electrodes to make a person balance to one side or not? So you can send electrical signals through the vestibular system to like manipulate balance. That's just a fun tidbit I thought of where you were talking about. Yeah, that makes sense. So usually like neurons transmit electricity. Yeah. And generally speaking, when we come to applied neuroscience, you know, you can stimulate different parts of the brain with electrodes to do all kinds of stuff.

So, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. There's a little tidbit you can just like buy those. It's fucking cool. Yeah, sorry. There's random. Sounds a little bit dangerous. That you might be interested in it.

Sticking electrodes in your ear does not sound like a good idea. It is not. Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on and thanks for being open and honest and present, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Thank you.

And good luck to you and you don't have to fear the future. There's going to be other people around. Thanks, man. And I think you'll be okay, bro. All right. All right, take care. You as well. All right.

All right.