HealthyGamerGG - Fear of Being Taken Advantage of w/ Disguised Toast | Dr. K Interviews

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

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How are you? I'm doing good. Doing good. I usually don't wake up this early, but I am wide awake now. What time is it where you are? It is 10 a.m. here. Normal I wake up around 12. But, yeah, it's always, there's always a good reason to wake up early.

It's always nice to have a reason to wake up. Yeah, well, I thank you very much for, you know, inconveniencing yourself for our sake. I've been meaning to come on here for a while. I know I guess you've talked to every single other offline TV member, huh? I actually don't know if I have or haven't. Pokey Lily, Scara, Michael, and Yvonne. So, yeah, they've all been on. so I'm here to help you finish your infinity gauntlet.

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I mean, do you feel pressured to come on because other people from OTV have come on? No, no. I mean, people have tried pressuring me to go on, but I just say no. Okay.

So the reason why I came on, well, people have been asking for a while now, because I talk about a lot of my thought process and people are always like, oh, you should go on Dr. K. But the response I've always given them is like, I don't feel like it's necessary. And because it's content, I also had to reconcile the fact that it's content,

but it's also meant to be like beneficial or like eye-opening experience for people. to listen in. So, I think your wife reached out to me saying, hey, you guys have free private sessions. Because I think people from your side, like, not your wife, but people on your team have send me like 10 emails. I can show you the Twitter DMs. I'm not sure if you saw it.

It's just like 10 requests for me to come on the show. Oh, wow. Which I've ignored. but I just not big on replying. But I think your wife reached out saying, hey, we have some free private sessions just for your own benefit, which is also what made me agree to go on

when the private session was offered. I'm like, oh, they're nice enough to offer a private session where there's no content to be made. So that's pretty chill of them. So yeah, I will go on the public session one. Okay. Interesting. That's how I got here.

Well, I'm sorry that, you know, I didn't, on behalf of my team, for which I take responsibility, if they were pestering you, I'm really sorry about that. No, no, not at all, not at all. Thanks for the feedback, because I'll, you know, we'll circle back because we haven't really heard that from anyone else. We try to actually be quite respectful of people not wanting to come on. I also am, you know, it's kind of interesting, about 70% of the people, that I've worked with like I do for free historically. And I'm wondering whether, yeah, I'm kind of surprised to hear you say all that stuff. But I'm kind of, you know, if I was, which is news to me, offering to meet with you

privately for free, how would that motivate you to come on publicly if you didn't want to earlier? Like, that's weird. Because it's a nice thing to. to do to offer like private therapy sessions uh because there's no gain essentially to be had right at least not an immediate obvious gain um so and i felt like you know your wife was offering me a favor and she didn't have to so i like that um when people are nice yeah and i like like being nice back.

So is it, yeah. What should I call you? Because I know you is disguised toast. I mean, I've been watching, like I started watching your hearthstone streams many, many years ago,

probably. Like back when, like, I also remember, I was watching you for a while because I think you made it a lot of like meme friendly content. Right? And if I remember the origin of your name,

it's what the guy says when you coin out defies bandit on turn one. Yeah, wow You're an OG I am an OG Like back when Chill Wind Yeti was actually a solid card You know And then

And so watched prior to I still remember actually Like one of the most memorable things Was when someone leaked your face And I really loved your response video to that Yeah That was a long time ago Yeah man

and and I still remember if I remember the sentiment correctly you were like this is for fun it's not like I'm actually trying to hide and like people are sort of taking it too far and like it's fine like I don't mind showing my face but you know the whole point was to like entertain people and it was yeah

yeah like it's it's cooler to have like a gimmick like especially when you're starting as a streamer and like certainly now it's it's always awkward when you become a content created on the internet because my biggest fear was just like my friends finding out and making fun of me because it's kind of like being an internet streamers, one of those big dreams kids have nowadays. They used to want to be a singer or an actor,

but now it's like, oh, I want to be a video game streamer. So, yeah. Can I just jump in? What should I call you today? You can call me toast. Okay. Most people are calling toast. Like, Jeremy's more intimate, but I don't know anyone, like, in my friend group who calls me Jeremy.

Do you want people to call you Jeremy? No, no, no. It weird to me out at this point. Just because I'm just so used to hearing toast. Yeah. And so I want to just also take a step back for a second, toast, and just sort of let's think this through. So, you know, if we offered, if you, you know, we tried to do you a kindness. And in return, you want to do a kindness to us.

I can totally respect it. It's 100% how I operate in my personal life. And I also want to be a little bit careful because you don't have to do us a kindness. I know it's kind of weird because we're already streaming at this point, right? But I think that like, you know, I don't want you to feel, I mean, I sort of am getting the feeling, or I'm interpreting that you're feeling kind of like almost a sense of like repayment. Like you're doing, you know, you're like paying a debt by coming on stream, which I think is going to be interesting because I'm like really curious whether that's a pattern that exists elsewhere in your life. Right?

And then, but I also want to be clear that like I'm actually okay. I know it's going to be weird and I know it's going to be anticlimactic. like the only way that I can do this, because you're right, that it's weird, because it's like content and helping people. That's sort of like a conflict of interest, if you think about it, right? Like, what am I really here for? And so the only way that I can resolve that conflict of interest

is I actually am not here to help the internet. I'm here to help the person that I talk to. It's the only way that I can do this, because otherwise it gets too confusing. And by having that is my North Star, it actually makes all the decision-making easy. I know it sounds kind of weird, but like what that also means is like,

If you're here because you feel like you have to be here because we tried to do you a solid, we can just stop and I'm totally fine with that. I'm serious. I don't know. Just imagine the stream ending instantly five minutes in. But Toast, let's really think about that for a second, okay? Because like, I want you to think about, like, what lesson does that teach people who are watching? well I think the world is definitely better off if every nice act was reciprocated with a nice act of its own

but without obligation to do so I think there is an expectation but not an obligation if that makes sense like I you know do my friends a lot solid and sometimes rarely I would ask for one back but when I do ask for one back, it's not an obligation, right? Because I didn't, I wasn't nice to you with the expectation that you're nice to meet back. But if I lend you $20 on Tuesday and next Friday, I ask for $10, like, hey, can I get a loan on $10 and you pay for something? And you say no, I would never, like, demand, hey, that's not fair. I gave you 20 bucks last week, but more like in the back of my head,

I'm going to mentally note, you know. I did a solid, but they weren't able to do one back. And I think that's just human nature, right? I think the majority of people, yeah. So I know it sounds kind of weird toast,

but I think sometimes feelings of obligation get people to make sacrifices. and I know it's weird, but sometimes those sacrifices I don't think are actually healthy. Right? So like we actually had a,

one of our coaches brought up an interesting case. So there's a client who's in a relationship. And, you know, I'm going to kind of anonymize it. But like, and they're in a relationship where their partner sometimes has trouble and they feel obligated to help their partner, even at significant cost to themselves.

And it's actually like not a healthy situation because their partner is not actually like taking care of themselves. So they are forced to take care of their partner out of obligation. And every time they make that sacrifice, it's like they're holding their partner up while like sacrificing their own life. And so, you know, I think acting out of obligation, like I think it's an honorable way to live. You seem like an honorable dude.

I read your tweet longer, or your tweet longer recently. And so I think it's really cool to see, like, how you have an internal compass that drives you forward. And, but, you know, I think it's important to kind of like at least notice this pattern. At this point, I don't think you're going to leave, but. But I think it would be interesting, right? Because maybe you would be signaling to people that, like, hey, like, just because you feel obligated to do something, if it's not something what you don't want to do, like, you don't have to do it. Yeah, definitely. The whole reason why I am on here is because, like,

I don't feel obligated to, but it's just nice, I guess, to be able to do it. Like, when people badger me for something, it makes me not want to do it more. And people have been asking me to go on. I mean, that's the whole reason why I haven't come on sooner is because I just didn't feel like. like it. People ask.

I don't really feel obligated, but it's like until I feel like, hey, you know, there's a good reason to. I'm not sure if there's a good reason to right now, but... I was about to ask, what's the good reason? I think I mean, a week ago,

there was that whole online drama stuff going on and coming back to California. But other than that, I've always felt my life was good enough and do not have a reason to come on

but I always do like talking about streamer meta like what's it like being streamer the stuff we think about like the money we make a lot of like I like doing like an inside look at a streamer's mindset and I think

the healthy gamer show you know does something very similar where it's like an inside look at the mental health of streamers in general so i don't know we can talk about anything really i like talking about spicy stuff like drama stuff you you said you do like or you don't like i do like um which it's sometimes hard because you know we never want to leak names or like implicate people but i do like talking about like sensitive topic, like money or like as, sure.

You may learn like racism, sexism, like, sometimes social issues, but I actually don't like talking about those too much because I don't really have an opinion. Like gun laws and abortion. Sometimes bring it up just to like meme and make people uncomfortable. But the other topics is just more interesting. Yeah. So Toast, you've always struck me as a thinker.

You know, like, I know you meme, and I know you make fun content, and I know you're an entertainer. But I do get the sense that, like, behind that is, like, actually a lot of thought. And I think your, you know, your face reveal conversation was a good example of that. I still remember watching a YouTube video where you went over, like, how much streamers make. And you kind of talked about sponsorships and things like that. And so, you know, I'm just. I think if you enjoy talking about things that are a little bit at the edge of what's polite, I think that that's actually like really fantastic.

I think a lot of what you're sharing is like aligned with like my personal goals and goals as an organization. Because I think a lot of times we don't talk about the bad stuff. Right? We don't always we're not, we don't always acknowledge like some of these issues and that that's part of the reason that they continue to go on because they're never brought to light. so I'd love to hear you know whatever juiciness you want to talk about I mean if you have any ideas about where we could get started and then there are one or two other thoughts that I have

unless you have a direction you'd like to go let's circle back to the conversation of like helping friends and expectation obligations yeah so tell you it's um I have a lot of expectation from my friends and people, my social circle. What does that mean you have a lot of expectation? From or towards? From them.

Like they expect a lot from you? And then I, so I try to provide my friends with a lot of content and like help their career. and just whatever support they need, putting them in situations where their talent can grow. And I have this, I think one of my worries is like raising baby birds in a nest. and once they're ready to leave the nest, you know, letting them go, and hoping that they come back one day and, like, visit and not forget you. Or, another analogy, well, streaming is like running a marathon.

And I don't mind slowing down to help my friends who are lagging behind or, like, tripping. But it always worries me that once they get up and running, like they just full sprinted down, like, not look back, not try and slow down for anyone. one. Not sure if I'm making sense, but... Can I repeat back what I heard? Sure. So what I'm kind of hearing is that you may slow down to help people up,

but then you're worried, whether it's accurate or not, that they may leave you behind. That may be one day you'll stumble, and they're not going to look back. Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Or like they won't even like slow down for their friends, not necessarily me. Because I'm generally okay by myself. Like my career has always been like at the forefront.

But like if they had friends, like they won't even slow down for them. So it's just that the scene is constantly about the chase, right? Like the numbers, the getting ahead being top dog. It's just the grind nonstop. So whenever I do see kindness, like, it speaks a lot to me. You try hard to be a kind person.

Yeah, yeah. Try my best. What do you give up by doing that? Nothing really. I feel like people are always saying they have sacrifices to make, but I feel like I never give anything up because their talent was already there.

and their humor so like I also just gain benefit just by being around them like being in the good content that's happening so I don't feel like I ever give anything up

I feel like I'm more just unlocking their potential that they've always had so it's not like oh I could have had a bigger stream or I could have had a bigger presence if I didn't help them. It's never like that. I always,

I only benefit from people's success. So, it's just that small worry that people are always seeking that next level. Like, what's going to get me more of you? Who's bigger than me that can collab with now that I'm bigger?

So let me see if I'm kind of getting you. So on the one hand, you know, it's kind of interesting because you're sort of saying that like, okay, there's the scene, right? And the scene is the grind and growing and always like, okay, can I collab with toast? Oh, wow, like, toast is collabing with me. And then, like, part of the nature of the beast is like they're going to grow and then like they're going to collab with someone else, right? Because at some point, we're going to reach toast. We're going to pass toast. And there's toast back there, but like, let's keep going up. And your experience is

that you don't it's not like you sacrifice a whole lot in supporting people that sounds like you genuinely really do enjoy helping people reach their full potential um that you also notice that there is kind of like a benefit right because if you find someone who is talented and you unlock their potential like you guys can create content together that content is ultimately like improved the more people you know if you get multiple people involved you can make more than what you could make on your own so i'm not hearing you making any kind of like noble sacrifice Like, oh my God. I helped you so much.

And I give you my kidney. Yeah. Like, the reason why I don't feel like too bad about it, because at the end of the day, it's like, they are just talented by themselves. They're just not in the right situation. Sure. Like, sure.

In the right game or have the right collab partners. Sure, sure. You sound like you're very good at kind of, enabling people. Yes. Yeah. I would say that's like one of my best talent is not, it's just recognizing good content because I feel like I myself is pretty limited

by like what is possible because at the end of the day like I am like sarcastic. I have a sarcastic persona. and my games that I'm good at are very, like, thinking, logical, like, nerdy games. And I always felt like I have, like, a ceiling that is more obvious than other people might have. So I like seeing, like, how far other people can go. Sure. So where do you think that fear comes from, the fear of sort of being left behind?

I... Hmm So, Dr. Kay, I don't know if you know this about me, but when I talk about feelings, I start tearing up. It's not because, I don't know why. It's never because I'm sad because I'm just talking about stuff. But when I talk about things that are a little more emotional in nature, like my tear talk just start, like, you know, start trying to.

I think it's because, like, I don't talk about emotions much. so my brain is thinking oh if he's talking about emotion he must be sad and he wants to cry so let's make him cry it's funny because it's so stupid and you get my point across but I can't

because when I try so people have disappointed me since I came to California when you're a solo streamer it's like I'm going to the top fuck all of you

kind of deal. Like, I had drama with, like, quite a few heartstone streamers when I was coming up. Just, like, looking back, it's just stupid, but it's like an ego shit talk battle of who's the best streamer kind of deal, like, stuff like that. But when you have friends and you collab with people

and it gets really complicated. And my policy, is I generally will just support someone, especially my friends do, and like host them and like appear on their streams and just like genuinely want them to do well and to be able to make a living of it. A lot of situations have turned out fine,

but there are quite a few situations that, you know, if you have followed the OTV's history, that's gone really bad and we don't really interact with those people anymore. And it's like, it's happened quite a few times. And it's people like, I trusted. So, yeah. So how you holding up, man? I'm good, I'm good.

I know like these things I can talk about. and like they're normal to talk about i just need practice talking about it um but you know it happened a few times actually so it wasn't even like a one-off thing can and that is like smaller versions of that that get settled internally too as well okay um can i ask so when i when i asked you a question you got emotional do you know what emotion you were feeling uh Not sadness. I think it's just, oh, this is like sensitive stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. I got that impression too, that there's some, what I saw in you is like remembering a hurt. I don't know. I don't feel that hurt by it. Honestly, I don't know if that's what the fear comes from. is just like an easy example to point to and say, you know, there are people that I did believe in that end up doing not so great things. So is that like feeling betrayed, disappointed?

I think disappointed mostly. Because they don't usually end up hurting me, or they just end up doing something stupid. that hurt other people. What happens as someone does hurt you? Oh, that one is more just anger and, like, vindictive. I'm a very petty person, and I remember the wrongs that I'd done to me. There's not a lot of them, but I am the type to kind of hold on to grudges.

But I usually react with. anger or revenge if I'm personally, like, upset it by someone's action. Will you let me know if I get close to making an enemy of you? Of course. Usually it's like really like over the line. Yeah, so let me know where that line is, okay? Got it. I do not want to wind up across the other side of that border.

I wouldn't say there's really I don't have any enemies right now and most I just have people I don't like interact with so when someone says to me that I'm a vindictive person

who has no enemies there's a part of me that wonders yeah you have no enemies left because they're all six feet under at this point I don't know I like I like um

eating people like when I was streaming TFT when it first came out like I made it a point to stream over the time slot of my competition So I think the first Month I was doing 12-hour streams and they were like Time so that I start right before the first like Big TFT streamer gets on and I end right after the last big TFT streamer Finishes for the day

So, like, I really, and my attitude that time was just like, I'm going to bury this guy. And I don't really, like, have a problem with them. It's just the competition of being a streamer. But, like, when I had to do back then, it was like, you got to stay in second place. And now I'm going to be first place and have the viewers. But now that, you know, I'm on Facebook and I'm in my killing years. it's a lot less antagonistic and more just hey you know you get your friends

you guys want to play some games let's you know you want you know I can pop by your stream and I think that's one nice thing about being on Facebook is uh I can just provide content to my friends without thinking oh you know well what about my stream you know why am we having this stream on my stream so

um yeah i'm i'm at a pretty nice place right now in terms of providing content but that's kind of what my adity used to be when it comes to like competition so toast i'm gonna can i just think for a second yeah so there are there are a lot of different things that are kind of popping in my mind i'm not quite sure what has significance so one is You know, you mentioned that things were a little bit, you know, unharmonious or not harmonious during the early stages of Heartstone or maybe when you were Heartstone streamer. There was some kind of conflict. I think we talked a lot about sort of this, you know, you describe it as a small fear because you strike me as a pretty resilient guy where like if you do have issues or call them whatever you want to, you seem to be like pretty good at like setting those aside, kind of being able to do your work, finding compassion, sort of like not.

feeling super burnt out. You seem to really be about, you know, supporting other people and that feels very genuine to me. Like, I don't think you're, you know, trying to grow someone just so you can farm people to collaborate with. It's sort of like you recognize that this person is talented and you recognize that by making content with them, it sort of helps you grow, helps them grow. All seems super genuine to me. And there are a couple of things that I'm not quite sure how to connect. But one is sort of this idea that like, it's almost like, you know, I'm going to toss out a strong word here, which is like abandonment.

But when I kind of think about the birds in the nest, it's like they're going to leave and they're never going to come back. And that sounds a touch, like one word, you know, if we want to use a big word, like maybe a little bit hyperbole, maybe a little bit extreme, is like abandonment. It sounds like sometimes people have sort of like wronged you in the way. the past. And then this is where I get kind of confused about whether this is related or not. Is there is this kind of idea of like, you kind of mention that you have a ceiling, right, in the games that you play. And that you're kind of aware of what your ceiling is. And that's

why you gravitate towards games like Harthstone or TFT, because you're never going to have the reflexes of the Fortnite pros or this or that, right? Like you can, and even if we think about, you know, your heartstone content, like, hopefully this doesn't, let me know if this evokes any kind of hurt, but like you're not known for being the best at hearthstone. Like the reason that your content was great was because it was very entertaining. And so I'm wondering whether there's a correlation between sort of this idea that I have a ceiling, the fact that other people will sort of like leave you behind at some point because there's only so fast that you can run. because if you kind of and then also like on the flip side whether that like kind of manifests

is like I'm a be number one bitches you know like striving to be number one and I don't know if any of those things are actually related I mean they can all be independent it's just those are the three things that I'm kind of feeling are like floating to the surface and and when it comes to being vindictive, being hurt. You know, there's a part of me that almost wants to ask the question, like, and I think the answer oddly enough is yes, but for a little while I thought it was no. Like, would you know what feeling hurt felt like? I, yeah, yeah, I think so.

I think, I don't like it when people violate my trust. Like, I tell you, hey, X secret. And I say, don't tell anyone. And they end up telling someone. Like, I think that's the biggest way to, like, get on my bad side. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, like, I feel like there are stronger words popping up here because that sounds like betrayal to me.

Yeah. And I'm very harsh with my friends when they do that. Yeah. So when it comes to, and then now we circle back to, like, expect. So I'm kind of thinking about, okay, toast, I know you're here. I know everyone, including us, wanted you here. And so like, I know that everyone's being satisfied. But like my question is still like, how can we help you as a person? You know, like is there something that not that you need help because this also like you kind of said earlier that life is good enough. Whereas like I don't think you the people, in fact, I think we've created this bias where like people come on here because they've got some problem or some issue or some difficulty. Whereas like, it's really my belief that like, you know, you can always climb. Like it doesn't, you don't, and everyone should be trying to climb, right? Like you can always grow as a person.

What I'm kind of curious about is whether, and I think if you want to, if you feel like any of this is relevant or important to you, I can lay out an argument of why I think it may be worth exploring. But I'm just curious, like, what resonates with you? nothing really out like I don't think I have any problems emotionally I don't think so either so yeah can I ask

go ahead yep can I ask you how are your romantic relationships Romantic relationships. I don't know. You're allowed to not answer, by the way, if it's not something you want to talk about. And if you want me to explain why I'm asking, I'm happy to.

I won't go into too much detail. That's one of the problems with being like a public figure talking about, because I've had a public relationship. And that one, the amount of backseaters and people commentating on it is just really annoying. So since then, I've kept my romantic life relatively private. Like, I talk about bits here and there. I kind of like not like being in a committed relationship. relationship right now because I think it's a lot of work and can I toss something out toast why I ask so here's

sometimes when I work with people like you know I'm making a lot of assumptions so I think like maybe what we need to do is just you know I'll ask you some basic questions like about your life and stuff but here's here's I'm going to take a shot in the dark okay it's going to be like one of these like um high risk high reward. I'm making some hearthstone deck where I have no cards between that are one to five mana. They're all like they're all legendaries that start at six. Okay. So, so the one in a hundred games where this works out and I survive in turn six six, it's it's Gigi wow. For you and sleep there. But so here's here's what I'm concerned about is that I think you have like I don't know how to put this, but you have a meta in your mind. You have like a set of rules.

right? Like you operate, you have a strong internal code. You have, there's like a whole system that isn't really in the game. It's like, like, it's in your mind. Like you have a strong set of internal rules through which you operate by. And that like, like other people may not understand those rules, right? It dictates how you stream. It dictates how you relate to other people. It dictates like it's kind of like this honor system that you've got going on in here. That sometimes it's kind of disappointing because, it's because people outside of you don't adhere to that honor system. And the reason I ask about romantic relationships is sometimes when you have honorable vindictive people, okay? And sorry if that's, you know, a bad way of putting it. But like you describe yourself as petty and vindictive. But you're clearly like a good dude, right? And so like when you have that kind of pattern in your mind,

sometimes it creates a lot of confusion and trouble, especially in romantic. relationships. Because the person on the other side of the table, you're like playing with this meta that isn't apparent on the game board. Because the meta is not like, you know, the game board is the game board. But it's like, it's weird. Like I like, and you're coining out defias bandits and it's like, I thought we were doing no rush 20. You know, like. And so sometimes it can be confusing for other people. So I was just kind of wondering, you know, that's why I ask about romantic relationships. Because I wonder if, You know, to put it really, like, specifically shot in the dark, because we haven't asked you anything about them. But, you know, whether people, whether you feel like really let down by someone not living up to expectations and specifically whether that person didn't realize at all that that expectation was being placed upon them.

Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's just, from my point of view, these expectations are very obvious, like very human courtesy expectations. But I can also see, like, it doesn't apply to everyone. It's just, you know, because I do have, like, a strong sense of, like, what's right and what's wrong. That, to me, it seems very straightforward, very clear cut. Yeah, you're supposed to behave like this.

you're supposed to act like that. One thing I've learned from talking to the ladies is that I tend to be on a very logical scale and they are generally more emotional than I am.

Because being right used to be the most important thing for me. Not like that I had to be right, but like in an argument If you're in an argument with someone, one of you should be right. There are some stuff like, oh, should abortions be legal? Like, that's an argument where it's just two guys arguing. Like, there's no defined correct answer.

But a lot of arguments, like someone being rude, I feel like there's a clear-cut, right person, wrong person. And I had that attitude when it came to a relationship. like, hey, you know, we were trying to solve a problem and you snapped at me and now we're fighting. So you kind of like broke a rule, right? So I feel more justified and entrenched because you violated, you know, what could have been a proper way to communicate. now it's like name calling or like being petty. Yeah, so I'm hearing a lot of what I was thinking may be going on, which is that, but because I think you say like, you know,

because in your mind they violated a rule. But I know, I'm sure that, you know, you're logical in here. But the point is I think like, I know it's kind of bizarre, but like sometimes like you've got a meta up here, though. about how the game should be played. And sometimes I see conflict because the metas and the minds of the people that you relate to may not be the same as your meta.

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. People have told me that my way of thinking is not always correct and that I should be nicer or be more accepting

of people's flaws, but I think that's a big... I think we have enough of that in our friend group where we just accept people's shortcomings and their flaws and they're just like, well, that's just who they are. So I tend to be more strict on stuff like that where, you know, if someone does something bad, I want to have a sit down with them. Like, I want to sit them down, like in my room

and explain to the... them like why what they did wasn't okay a little confrontational and i like a tiny like i like having friends and being close to people and like having people to rely on but i'm also afraid that uh people get too familiar with you like when like people always say your best friends are the one that gives you a lot of shit kind of deal um I respect is really important to me and I would love for my friends like like me and love me but it doesn't hurt sometimes when there's a little bit of fear as well which now that I've said out loud people are going to be like more aware of it but um can you help us understand that

I don't quite understand I lost you there Have you Have you Have you seen Game of Thrones Yeah Yeah You know people love

The Nairus Targaryen But some people are also afraid of her But in both cases It makes them treat That person with respect Is that makes a lot of sense So have you been I feel like a story would

You know tell a thousand words here But like I'll just kind of ask Have you been like Taken advantage of because of your kindness? No No no no No I don't think

People like I don't think I think I'm smart enough to know when someone's trying to take it of me. Yeah, I don't think I've been taking advantage of. I think it's more just like, hey, you know, you seem cool. You know, I'll play with you. I'll, you know, talk about you, you know, on stream and like try and boost your numbers. Just, you know, be the best person you can.

And then they go and do some shady shit. And it really sucks when that happens. what sucks are they it's like cause I don't know it sucks

when people you believe and disappoint you know not they never do anything to me they just

do something objectively shitty and um or they just like leave the nest and

don't interact with like the people they used to interact with anymore. How does that feel when they do that? It's like, oh, just another one for the history books. Like, it happens so often in my mind that when it doesn't happen, like, it's really

surprising to me. Like, I have the expectations. Like, you're just going to one day not, like, going to, like, going to. be around anymore. But maybe you'll surprise me. How long ago did you learn that lesson that people just don't stick around? I guess a year ago. When I was in elementary school, I remember sharing a popcorn chicken with this kid in class.

And he just kind of like acted as if, ha. I just got a free popcorn chicken off you when I wanted to share it with him. And when he had gum later, like, hey, can I have a piece of gum? He's like, ha, no. Kind of deal. And, you know, that memory sticks out as like an example of, like, when you help people, the expectation is like, don't expect them to, like, return a favorite. Like, I'm surprised when people reciprocate kindness these days. I feel like that should be

the norm. Sure. But like these days when someone does, like, show appreciation for me, it catches me off guard. Yeah, I think especially in the world that you live in, there's sort of friendship. And then some of y'all are in the business of friendship, you know, where being friends is actually not, it's like a business decision. And I imagine that makes things quite tough. But can I ask you, can I ask you a little bit more about when you were younger, like

prior to, because it was kind of confusing because you said, I was like, when did you learn that lesson? And you were like about a year ago. And then you told me a story from kindergarten with popcorn chicken gum. So, you know, I'm kind of noticing that maybe. Maybe you've been on the, maybe you've been burned.

I mean, it sounds like you got burned by it pretty early. Sort of like doing good onto others and others taking advantage of you and not doing what was right. Just a small, I think I just place a lot of emphasis of being considerate. Sure. Can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Okay, I grew up in Malaysia. So I was born in Taiwan, but like when I was less than one years old, my family moved to Malaysia. And I grew up there for about 10 years.

And I kept switching between an English and a Chinese school. So my Chinese wasn't great and my English wasn't amazing. And when I moved to Canada, I had like the Malaysian. version of English, which is heavily accented. And like the words three, like I had such a huge problem pronouncing it, three. Because I would say tree. And it took like a long time. I had an immense fear of public speaking, like the worst ever.

Like I would just go up and just read from a piece of paper and I know you're not supposed to do that because you're supposed to make eye contact. But I remember one presentation, I'm like, fuck it, I am not taking my eye off the piece of paper and looking at people's reaction to my presentation. You know, at that whole, like, Asian identity growing up thing of, like, bringing home-cooked meals, but people, the kids at school,

having, like, a negative reaction to the home-cooked meal. And my mom ended up making, like, bolognaut ketchup sandwich. instead because you know she doesn't want me to feel like I'm standing out. I learned how to do oh for the first year of high school grade 9 I didn't speak to anyone like I went the entire year without talking to anyone besides the yes and no that my teachers would ask me I think in grade 11 I made an effort to be social so I learned how to do magic tricks so that I could interact with people and entertain people because I like being an entertainer.

I was going to be a game designer initially because for me that's how I could become an entertainer. I couldn't be like a streamer because it wasn't really thing back then or an actor or a singer, but I could design games that people would enjoy since I played a lot of games. But I picked up like magic.

tricks as a way to entertain people. And that slowly improved my ability to perform in a public setting. So, yeah, that kind of set me down on a path of being an entertainer. Hmm. Fascinating, man. I'm so happy you shared that. I don't know why, but I really just really enjoyed hearing about your, what growing up was like for you. even though it sounds pretty rough, bro.

No, no. It didn't feel rough. I feel. I felt like, like looking back, it might seem a little sad. But when it was in the moment, it didn't feel like it was that hard. I just felt like, oh, this is what life is, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

And you mentioned your, you know, your mom was quite thoughtful about, you know feeding you trash to help you fit in you know setting aside some of her own values yeah she was just worried that the kids would make comments yeah and and how did she how did she get worried about that was that because of something you said do you remember i don't maybe my sister said something but um sisters older or younger uh oh i have an older sister and an older brother. How much older? Well, my brother's seven years older and my sister is two years older.

Yeah, they're sisters getting married. And my brother just had a child. So they're growing up and I'm still playing video games on the internet. I would assume that that was a joke. Huh? That you actually have no problem playing. games on the internet. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's crazy how, like, oh, they're getting, like how, how, like, we, people from my high school are literally married and have children by now. But, like, this industry we're in, it's like people are just playing, playing, playing, playing games. How do you feel about that? I think it's cool. I think I'm not ready to be old just yet. and it's just crazy that some people are the same age but at so many different phases of their lives

like like their kids are some kids are like five years old by now yeah yeah what do the people and do you stay in touch with anyone from high school oh i stay in touch with nobody not a single person um i do have two friends that I should stay in touch with because they were my best friends in high school but it's just been so long I feel awkward reengaging

so I'm just essentially waiting until I get married or want them get married to reach out again and say hey want to come to my wedding sounds like you need an excuse to reengage with them yeah

and can you tell me a little bit about your dad Oh, my dad, he worked most of his life in another country. So didn't really grow up with one. He works really hard. He's more of a traditional kind of guy, you know, older, like more family values. We must always be together for Chinese New Year's. Not that strict in terms of, you know, just do what you want to do, but he nags a lot and complains a lot, which is always hard.

But, you know, not too much problems there. I find myself wanting to ask what he nags about or what he complains about, but I'm also wondering whether in the meta of your mind, it's not acceptable to talk about things like people in your family and negative aspects of them on the internet. Um, hmm. I don't mind talking about it a little bit. Like, I think everyone has like family issue and everyone like just typical Chinese dad stuff. Can you please tell us about typical Chinese dads?

Like, uh, it's a good example. Oh, like when we were fishing, you would keep complaining how I didn't have the right lure because I'm not catching any fish. And like when other people on the pier were catching fish, it's like, look at them, they have the right lear. This one's not the right one. You got the wrong one.

And then I started catching fishes like 30 minutes later. And like the whole time I was thinking like, no, I know what lear they're using. I got the exact same one. This is the right one. But it's like he just assumes like at least from my point of it,

he just assumes something was wrong. Like I did something wrong and he's going to complain about it. But it was just like it's just the nature of fishing up. You know, I wasn't going to catch one right away. But like stuff like that

where it's just like, bro, I just I'm here to spend time with you to catch fish with you and I have to keep listening to how I got the wrong lure, even though I know it's the right one. Yeah. So a lot of stuff like that. It's got to be rough to, I mean, I know you're used to it and I know it's typical. You know, I'm Indian, so I think that there's a lot of commonality between typical Chinese dads

and typical Indian dads. at the same time, I've got to imagine it's like frustrating to be blamed for lack of skill when it's RNG. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I feel like I can't be allowed to make mistakes because like when you learn to do something, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. Like the first time you learn to knit or ride a bike, you're going to make a lot of mistakes.

but it's just a pain in the ass when like your dad is next to you like paying so much attention so the second you make a mistake he just says well that's wrong and you're thinking well obviously I know it's wrong but how am I going to know what works and what doesn't unless I'm actually trying to learn but I didn't tell him any of that because I didn't want to snap at him and like he's at a pretty old age and again, I'm at an age where I should be accepting and understanding. And just saying, oh, that's just dad being dad. But it does make it difficult to spend time with him sometimes.

I'm just thinking about whether, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I was just trying to think about whether it's worth talking about further or not. Probably not. The family life is just like, It is what it is. So it sounds like you've learned a lot from your dad's mistakes. At the same time, I'm wondering whether you've internalized any of that approach in the way that you interact with other people.

Someone brought it up to me and say, when I was complaining about my dad, they're like, that kind of sounds like you because you complain a lot about people as well. And when they said it, I'm like, yeah, you're kind of right. I do like, because from my point of view, it would be the similar to my dad where you just want people, like, do better. Like, I'd say they're doing a golf swing and I'm in the back saying, oh, you should adjust five degrees here. But I just do it for everything. Like when people are streaming or like when they're playing Valorant and I'm back seeing them like, yeah, you should take a look to your left here.

And like, you know, you should go do this, go to do that. and I can't see how I am similar in that sense. So since then, I've been a little more aware at giving feedback. Because I know some of my friends are more receptive to it. And some of my friends are more like, bro, why can't you just be happy for me, man? Or like, just if they get 80% on a test, I need not focus on, well, this is how you should go. should have gotten a 90% or 100%. So I think it did subconsciously rub off of me on me.

And yeah, like the whole thing about like having respect, I think as a result of that. What do you mean? Like I had becoming like my dad, when we eat dinner or lunch, like the rule is nobody touches the food until he does. and like a lot of Asian superstition kind of deal and tradition like we always have to be there for Chinese New Year I think

played a role and like how much respect you should show to your peers to the elders very Asian Chinese stuff I guess yeah so I

can definitely see the cultural component So I'm going to circle back to romantic relationships for a second. Do you see this behavior as sort of influencing your romantic relationships? Well, I don't think so. I mean, I've only been in one real relationship. So I'm not an expert on it. Yeah. Toast, I'm not quite sure where to go.

So here's where you have any idea what we should talk about today? Hmm. Any good drama lately? Oh, there was that whole drama I was involved in last week, but honestly, that's kind of over with. Why are you interested? Why are you looking for drama to talk about? I don't know. It's more interesting.

I guess I like talking about things that people find interesting. Yeah, that's my concern, right? So like, do you want to talk, are we here for people or are we here for you? I've said this before a while ago, is that my biggest worry with coming on the show is that like I'm really smart when it comes to like PR and marketing and I worry that the things I say on this show is designed to evoke some kind of positive feelings towards me. It's like, oh, TOS is so genuine or TOS is so vulnerable.

TOS is so like whatever. Now that we had to inside look into. how his mind works, we see what a wonderful person he is. Because I am very capable of doing that. Like when I got signed to Facebook and I donated like the $20,000 budget to children, a children's hospital, right? Like, did I do that because I'm a benevolent person? No, I did it because I knew signing with Facebook was going to be unpopular.

And this was a great opportunity to do something nice for sick children and also to get some good PR. So Toast, here's what I'm feeling from you. You're saying just enough. And so I don't know exactly like I can imagine that there's some, there are a bunch of different calculations or very, in your mind right now to where like I'm detecting some amount and I don't know I don't want to like expose that or bully you because like I want to respect your emotional boundaries and your privacy but I also get the sense that it's like just enough and I think like we're not really talking about anything or like we're talking about stuff but we're not saying anything and does that make

sense? Kind of. Like, I feel like we would never talk about anything that I didn't really want to talk about. Maybe I should talk about. But. Yeah. So I think that's what's going. Like, so I think that like I need to understand from you, you know, whether because

because I try to talk to people. Like what I want to talk, I want to talk to Jeremy. I don't want to talk toast. you know and and I think what we're here is is to do is to try like at least what I'm here to do is to try to help you but I think we can talk about like if you feel more comfortable doing societal commentary if you feel more comfortable you know having everyone get emotionally engaged with drama so that we don't have to like talk about you like that's fine like you're allowed to say I don't want to talk about this but what I'm kind of what I'm feeling from you is that you know you're like sharing some stuff about your family. but like at the end of the day like there are a thousand questions here that I feel unsafe asking because I think that you and I are like doing a little bit of tango where we're like skirting around a lot of stuff and and so I think what we've got to do is kind of take a step back how do you feel right now if I say something like that like do you feel pinned down or attacked in some way

I think it's pretty accurate I just don't know like at least consciously. I don't know where that wall is. Like, I think it would be easier for you to, like, press on something. And, like, if I try to, like, deflect or, like, minimize it or only give you crumb. Here we go. Why is there a wall in the first place? Uh, because we are in a public setting and there are viewers.

and not just viewers live here, but like people who are going to watch the Vodz and put it up on YouTube. That's a really good answer, but I don't think that you have a wall just when you're streaming on the internet. That's an answer that I can never argue against because you're right.

And I think you're hiding behind it. What walls do you have when no one is on camera? When no one is on camera? camera. I don't really talk much when there's no camera on. Like, I'm a introvert. So I'm normally really quiet around my friends. Yeah, good. So that's a wall. It's not just because you're an introvert. Right. So like now we get to the crux of the problem. It's like you can be toast, but like, I think the problem here is that I'm not interested in talking to Toast

I'm interested in talking to Jerry This is a conversation between two human beings Like at least for me Like that's the only way I can do this Like personally like I can't You know like don't give us a show Toast I mean

Go ahead Go ahead I feel like my entire Like life is just being an entertainer being like being on on display

like when I play even when I play games with friends like I would want someone to be streaming it's like it's really weird for me to play games and no one is streaming it

it's really weird for me to do like anything without it being content because my mind is just constantly thinking like how do we turn this into like entertainment for the masses right

why does your mind do that I think people I like making people laugh and I like entertaining people and why do you like that I think it's because I didn't have friends in high school until I became like a magician and I entertain people so I cannot associate being entertaining to a lot of

myself worth so if you don't entertain us today what are we going to see see that question seems so strange to me like I have to entertain people like this conversation is entertaining to people right like that's why people are watching right now it's because it's not entertaining in this traditional sense of a blockbuster film, but like it's interesting to observe. Right. Yeah. So, sorry, I was going to toss out a joke. Well, it is, we are talking with this guy's toast.

So if there's blockbuster level entertained it, this is where you find it. So what would we see if we, if you don't entertain us? More. Let's see. If there's no camera and we're talking one-on-one, and it's like a real therapy session, like completely private. How would I behave? Probably talk about my more selfish tendencies.

Like, I feel like I put enough bad stuff out there so that people realize that streamers are human beings and have flaws and selfish thoughts. I feel like I put just enough out there that people go Ah, see, Tosis Like, you know

He's got good stuff And he's got bad stuff But Why is it important for other people To not view you all as good? I think it makes me more Human and relatable And I

I In Hardstone There are streamers Who brand themselves as super positive, but I hate them because... So toast, the problem. Yep, I'm going to just keep interrupting you, okay?

Sorry about that. Tell me if I'm coming up on the line of being your enemy, okay? Why do you... So you say, it makes me dot, dot, dot. I'm with you there. But why do you have to be made into something in the first place? Right, it's all a mask, bro. Like, even the bad stuff.

is like, it's kind of like, here I have a glass of clear water. Let me put a drop of black ink into it because this looks too pure. And like what I'm getting from you is that like you kind of told us, like you're always an entertainer. You don't know how to not be an entertainer. But an entertainer is not who you are. It's how you've come to relate to people. And where I'm curious about is like, what's going on with Jeremy who's behind the mask of toast? I don't know.

really thought about myself, like as a person. Like, all I care about is making content, really, and just trying to be a good friend to people. Because I don't think it's a bad thing to base your happiness on how much you help other people, like your friends. like I get a lot of joy when I see my friends succeed and like I see them happy

that I don't really like if you ask me what makes me happy like besides getting more viewers or getting more money who tries to make you happy uh few of my friends my close friends

here in California where they try to like they always tell me I should do things that make me happy and not care too much about like helping my friends

but whenever they make those suggestions I can't even think of something that I would do for myself that would make me happy but I can think of like a hundred things I can do for my friends to make them happy, which I feel like wouldn't turn make me happy. I think there's a lot of value to altruism. But what would you say if a friend came to you and said,

I don't know how to make myself happy, but I know how to make everyone around me happy? I only think it's a problem when that person who's helping others sacrifice their own happiness and their own mental health to do so. because there is someone like that in a friend group and she's like constantly taking on the problems of everyone like if someone, one of her girlfriends is feeling sad

or like someone's going through drama like she will be the person to like listen to all of that and I see the mental toll it takes on them like because it's so much sad and negative energy that they're taking in on behalf of other people like they they revolve their identity around being like that supportive friend and uh and what's your identity i mean i i have a a very distinct identity i feel like of just you know being reliable but also being having giant ego

Do you have a giant ego? That's my persona. I started leaning into it back when Tyler won and Dr. Disrespect was being popular. Because I would look at them and see how much fans they would have. Toast, do you have a big ego? I do. Really? I think so.

I think my ego matches like my success. So I think your first answer, I put more seems right to me. You have the persona of having a big ego. I think what I'm hearing from you is like, I don't know. It seems to me like toast has dominated to Jeremy like completely. Like I think that you're a good dude. I think you're resilient. I think you care about your friends.

I also hear that what you figure. out is a formula that like, oh, if I make my friends happy, that in turn makes me feel good about myself. But there's something weird going on here, man. Like there's something about like you being an entertainer like all the time. And that's why I sort of ask about like your romantic relationships because like I think that oftentimes because there's like a certain degree of reciprocity in romantic relationships. There's a certain degree of like authenticity where I think like what I'm almost hearing from you is like you're signaling to like

you it's so weird it's nuanced I don't even know if I'm right here but like something about you know showing a little people like a little bit of the bad stuff makes you come across as like a little bit more authentic

but there's this part there's this part here where like I think that you know if I had to just really make a blind judgment here and I think this is probably where I'm going to be wrong because I think you're pretty well constituted, for lack of a better term, I'd say, like, I'm worried that you're afraid of what would happen

if you stop being an entertainer. And I think that the reason that you show people bad stuff is because you're testing the waters. You're seeing... Daddy, he was crying. Okay, can you... Can you... Yeah, hold on one second.

No, take as long as you need. What happened? Hello, chats. Left alone in the room with this guy's toast, huh? No doctor to help you. Oh, crap, he's coming back. Man, just when I was going for the throat. It's going for the O-TK.

But, like, the concern that I have toast is that, like, you know, so it's interesting because you come across, like, so, like, I'm just going to start from the top, okay? And, like, I may be completely out of line here, so just tell me to go fuck myself. myself at any point. So, you know, like, you grew up in a world where you were used to being a no one, where like you tried to be nice to other people and they took advantage of your kindness. You like grew up and like you moved to Canada where like you, even in Malaysia, like you never spoke competently. You know, it's either like you're not good enough at Chinese or not good enough at English and then you move to Canada and it like that must have been kind of shocking indifferent. You know, you started eating these bologian ketchup sandwiches. And then, you know,

one would think that you were super sad because you didn't talk to anyone for a year. You had no friends and maybe even two. And then you started to learn magic when you were in the 11th grade. And then you began to see that, oh, like, if I entertain people, like, they'll like me. Right? Like, the way to make friends is to like make other people happy. and so then like you know it's interesting because when you say oh like I really wasn't sad I believe you I think that that was just your experience it's sort of like you know if I was born in the year 200 I'm never going to miss the internet because I just didn't realize it's a thing like I remember I went to you know I used to go to India a lot and visit like my ancestral village and there was a kid

there that was my age that was like you know when you come here do you take an airplane and i was like yes i take an airplane and then he was like why don't you how do you not fall out of the airplane and i just laughed right because here this guy's never like he like even a car is like a big deal like most of the time it's carts that are being pulled by bulls and or buffalo and so like you know when you're going pretty fast it's easy to fall out of the cart and he's like if you're going really fast like can't you let's just it was your experience And now what I'm hearing is that you've become an amazing person. Like you're clearly like you're a good dude.

You help people. You get enjoyment out of it. I don't think you're a sociopath or anything like that. But then I think that there's this weird dilemma that you don't even know exactly how to recognize. And like sometimes when you talk about emotions, it's like it gets pretty confusing pretty quickly. Because I think somewhere along the way you learn how to turn down the volume on your emotions and like put on a show. You become toast. And like when I asked you at the beginning, what do you want to want me to call you?

You're like, yeah, I feel uncomfortable if people call me Jeremy. I thought you said something like that. And it's like, okay, like that's fine, right? But so you've become toast. And even then when you think about like, there are people that you care about from high school and you're, you need an excuse to reach out to them. And it's like, why is that? And it's kind of weird. Like, I understand it.

I understand it 100%. And I think it's it's because like you're toast to the internet. toast is a cool guy. Toast is someone that everyone wants to be friends with. Toast is legit. But with your friends, you're Jeremy. Like, Jeremy is like a different kind of guy. And so then we get into some of this weird stuff.

Like when you're, you know, even as you come on here, like there are a lot of like calculations going in your mind. Like, okay, am I making content? Like, what are people expecting? How do I give people what they want? Because that's just, it's become, I was about to say second. nature to you, but actually it's become first nature to you. You're always thinking about content and stuff like that. And I have no intention to, you know, ask you a thousand questions so that you start crying on stream and shit. Like, we're not going to do that. Because I think you'll play

that role far too well. But I think that somewhere along the way there's a part of you that's like struggling a little bit to like know whether is this person going to like toast or is this person just here for toast, are they willing to accept, like, what's underneath? So I think you test people. I think the reason you're mean with people is because you test them. And you kind of like see how they'll react. And oddly enough, it's kind of like the people, I think that you'll feel this could get into weird patterns, where sometimes when you test people, it's actually like reassuring to you in some way, depending on how they respond. Because it means they're willing to accept the person who isn't doing magic tricks.

and then like the closer you get to them, the more of the authenticity you show. And it's interesting, right? Because you're a little bit risque. I think that's become a part of your persona, but I think it's a part of you too because I don't know if you know what you can, like what people can handle.

Like how much, here's the question. How much of Jeremy or toast can people handle? Because I guess in your mind, you don't think it's very much. I don't like getting too close to people. I respect. not that anyone close to means I don't respect them but more just

I don't know that familiarity when you become like when someone's cool but you get to know them really well certainly they're not as cool because you know them you know like you know let's say you meet Brad Pitt

and after you're friends with him for like three years he's not Brad Pitt anymore he's just your buddy Brad kind of deal. Getting, I feel like the more people know me, the less they, I'm afraid they'll find out something that makes them respect me less or something. I'm not as impressive, so maybe it's better not to become too close with people.

What's wrong with you not being impressive? Why do you need to be impressive? I don't know. Everyone wants other people to think well of them, right? Sure, of course they do. Yeah, so. But I think you're kind of stuck here, Toast. Because who do they think well of? When you get respect from someone else, who are they respecting?

Toast or Jeremy? I feel like, I feel like they're the same person at this point. Okay. Right, but then does Toast let people know who he is? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, when you talk about Jeremy and you talk about Toast, like, in my mind, they're the same person.

Okay. At this point, I don't know if there's any separation. Why do you need an excuse to reach out to your friends from high school? It's just like an email you received like a month ago that you meant to reply to you, but you didn't. And now it's been two years. And you're looking at that email, you're like, God, I really should reply, huh? But now it's awkward since it's been so long. I don't reply out of nowhere. So I'm just going to wait until I have a reason to do so. Because I feel like I should have responded. And the fact that I didn't makes me a bad friend. And it's kind of

like I'm a little embarrassed to go back and reply to that email from two months ago out of nowhere and not like. Did they reach out to you and you didn't respond? Yeah, it was, they just said, you know, happy New Year's, hope you're doing well. And that was like January 1st? Yeah, January 1st, like 2020. So like a year and five months ago. Okay.

That turned out to be far more mundane than I was expecting. That makes perfect sense, man. If it's just, it's been too long to respond, like, that carries its own, that has nothing to do with toast and Jeremy and all that stuff. That's just like, you know, you haven't responded to someone for like 18 months. So it's sort of like. Yeah. Like, I'd be happy to, like, see them again. But it's just, it seems so foreign that part of my life.

Like people I knew before I became a content creator. What's your sense of why you've only had one real romantic relationship? Well, I like to think my best traits aren't visible right away. Also, I'm really bad at talking to people. I feel like dating people is a little bit of a number scheme. like the more people you meet. I think you're very good at talking to people. What are you talking about, bro?

But that's because you know me from when I'm a content creator, right? Ah, so there is a difference. Yeah. Well, for the first 26, 25, 25 years of my life, like I was in a content creator. I just went to school and worked like a computer programming job. And that's not very interesting, in my opinion. That was just not a lot of girls in my life that I can even talk to.

Not that I will talk to them because I have no game. But one of the nice things about being content created is just, like, people know who I am. Hold on a second. Sorry, I got to interrupt. How on earth do you not have game? Well, I would never just talk to a girl, you know? Like, I used to think, not like an in-cell, but more like, I had this idea that the more you have in common with a girl,

the higher chances of her liking you is. So, like, I once found out that a girl I was into, like, TV show at the office. And I'm like, okay, so if I watch the office and I have something to talk about with her, that's going to up my odds. It was this idea that affection equals attraction when they're two very separate thing. So, like, my understanding of what is attractive to a girl was really off. So are you telling me that the reason that you're not in a relationship right now is because you don't know how you have. have no game?

That's the reason why I didn't have like a relationship for the first 25 years. Since becoming a content creator and a mega chat, I have learned that it's hard. Like when it comes to what relationships, isn't it just you're either going to end up with them for the rest of your life or it's just a temporary thing. and you shouldn't get too attached. That's a question. I'm curious why, you know, is that, is that why you're not in a relationship?

Because, yeah, I don't think I'm ready to, like, go into a relationship. And with a mindset that this, like, I'm going to make this work. And this is the expectation that we're going to be together

for the rest of our life. Because I feel like that should, be like the mindset you have. Not necessarily like this has to work out, but more like you should get into relationship with the expectation that you know, it's going to work out and you guys are going to get married. So you're not, you have game now. Right? I have fame now.

And I have like, it's easier for me to believe that girls are anything for me. So toast, you're doing something slippery. you're being slippery. So when I ask you what, because here's the thing, every now and then, you give me a really good answer. And it's one that makes a lot of sense

and one that I can't push back at it all. Like if you're like, oh, like, I'm not ready for a relationship. Like, you know, because like the relationships are about commitment and like I'm just not ready to commit. And it's like, bro, like, you know,

if you're not ready for a relationship makes perfect sense. Like, if that's really the reason, like absolutely makes perfect sense while you're not in a relationship. But when I push, and I say is the reason you're not in a relationship right now

because you're not ready for a commitment and you can say like but then we get to this fame and game stuff and like that's where like someone doesn't smell right it's like I think what we're hearing is like the answer from the mask right which is like it makes perfect sense

and I'm not saying it's wrong but I think there's something else like underneath which is like what you have now is fame so like who are they dating. Mmm. And so if at some point, Toast becomes, I'm just going to keep going. Okay?

So if at some point Toast becomes Jeremy, what do they do? They leave the nest and never come back. Mm-hmm. Right? Because then at that point, it's like, you know, Brad Pitt becomes your buddy Brad. It's like what I'm, and this could be like, I may not be right here, Toast. I'm really not sure because like, I'm just going to keep going. though.

Because I don't even know how much of this is going to resonate, but like what I'm kind of feeling from you is like somewhere in there, there's like some general reluctance for you to let people, because we've heard this like we've heard like snippets of it. And maybe I'm putting together a puzzle piece that's not like, you know, a puzzle that's not really there. But it's like like I think at some point you've got to let people get to know Jeremy, right? You've got to stop being the entertainer. You've got to like start because you have game, bro.

Like you add like forget about the fame You like a hundred percent have game Like you know you do Actually maybe you don't know But you've got game like I You know how to talk to people But for fuck sake dude You know how to talk to people

Maybe I'm wrong Like maybe you don't feel that way But like I think that there's no way That the entertainer skills don't translate Like it's not Because you're right that like Jeremy And toast have become like blended Like you know how to like

You know how to bring the best out of people's potential Like you don't, what? So look at yourself in the mirror sometime. Like, you've got game, bro. One thing I will say, it feels like it's a little easier in the scene because most gamers are not that socially aware. It's just because I've been a streamer for so long that it came eventually, like being able to be.

talk to people. Yeah. But now I feel a little more comfortable, but it's also, it makes me feel a lot better going to conversations that people know who I am because it makes me more comfortable. Not that, I didn't know I'm a big deal, but more like they would find me interesting to talk to. right so this this is I think it may be hard

toast but like why do you think they wouldn't find you interesting to talk to anyway I mean I don't really stand out like if you take away you know the fact that I am a streamer

like what you end up with is what you can find anywhere right like some form of higher education into like slightly sarcastic personality a little above average IQ but not very productive

goes on Reddit a lot and not a lot of experience with women I feel like stuff like that people like that are so common sounds perfect I'm serious

Because like sure Those are some of your attributes But that's not actually who you are You're engaging Intelligent Funny Kind Yeah but people don't see that

Right How can they when you don't let them I mean people don't have a reason To even try to find out Right Well I put an effort Like I don't put an effort with someone who might be like hiddenly entertaining or like talented like I only put an effort

once I see bits and pieces of it right so why not I just go get to know someone who is interesting versus like who might be interesting a fair point right so but I think that this is where I imagine we're going to land I hope we land somewhere in the middle because you're right that like if someone is an introvert who doesn't talk to anyone, like I don't know why I would go and try to get to know them really well for the option of like, you know, becoming, you know, falling in love and spending the rest of our lives together. On the flip side, at the other end of the spectrum is toast

that everyone knows everything about and all the work has been done and they feel like they know who you are. And then you're kind of trapped in the middle because if you lean too heavily on toast, eventually they're going to get to know Jeremy. and then Brad Pitt becomes your buddy Brad. Beautiful, by the way. Right? And then at the other end of the spectrum is like the ninth grader who no one will speak to.

And I know this is where now things get a little bit tricky because was that person worth knowing? No, I don't think so. I think in this world, society. I think just in this, at least in this scene, the streaming scene, it's like sync or swim kind of deal. Like if we constantly think about like what someone could be, it's really hard because you can help so much people, right? There are so much small streamers who are struggling out there,

who, you know, are just looking for that chance. but my way of thinking when it comes to stuff like this is like bro it's up to you to make yourself interesting and like it's up to you to entice people to want to get to know you better right like you might be interesting underneath all that and you know have a lot of potential in you but people shouldn't have to go like finding out right Yeah, so that's kind of, it's, I think it makes a lot of sense. But, like, I also think it's weird to hear you say that because there are a lot of people out there with a lot of potential, whereas, like, what are you good at toast? Mm-hmm.

You're good at bringing people's potential out. Yeah. I would say so. Which sounds to me like a little, like, now I get confused because I'm with you. Like, so I think, in a sense, everything you're saying makes sense that if you want to make it as a streamer and if you want to, like, I think, like, I think, this is true. Like if you want to find a good partner, you got to advertise. Like, they're not going to come, you know, like, dig underneath layers and layers of stuff. But I think that there's like, you're kind of like, I'm feeling you, I'm feeling that this conversation keeps bouncing

between two extremes, which is one is like, you know, there's a part of you that's toast and you should absolutely advertise your good qualities and like that's a piece of it. But I think there's this other weird thing where like underneath toast and the reason you like being toast is because, you know, just going to put it out there. There's a no-brainer. Like, fundamentally somewhere down there, I think you feel a little bit unlovable. Right? Like, you feel like there's like a touch of the ugliness in there. And like, we hear it manifest in weird ways. Like, I have fame, but I don't have game. Bro, you have tons of game. Like, hate to break it to you.

Because I think you can't, it's not just your fame. It's like, it's the things that made you famous, which you have, right? It's, it's that part that it's your ability to make other people laugh. it's your ability to like notice things in the world around you and be a little bit sarcastic. Like your persona is a part of who you are. But I think like underneath like there's still the ninth grader. And so when it goes back to high school, it's like you've become successful. You've become someone that everyone wants to be friends with. Apparently you've become someone that we DM once a month asking you to come on stream because you're hot shit.

And so I think you end up like testing people to see like what if I'm not toast? Like, what if I don't act? What if I don't entertain? Like, what will you think about me then? And it's been, you've been doing it for so long that, like, the two have gotten tangled up and all you are is toast. But I think that there's, you know, when you talk about the wall, like, I think the reason the wall is there is because you're afraid of what's on the other side, which is someone that's not worth knowing. And then we get stuck because that will always be true until you let the wall down. let someone see what's on the other side and they're like yeah that guy's cool and the reason

i keep on hammering on a romantic relationship is because i think that you're not going to it's going to be hard to succeed in a romantic relationship until you do that because i don't know that you can be an entertainer like 24-7 for your like significant other well the solution is to just be entertaining all the time from the sounds of it like i i guess that's the way i think like I understand why it's not the solution bro, it's the problem Because do you see what you're doing to yourself I'm elevating myself but constantly pushing myself forward

Sort yeah I mean you're you're you're trapping yourself by going to higher and higher elevations It's like you're like a cat that climbs up the tree and doesn't know how to get down Like the solution is not for you to be entertaining a hundred percent of the time It's the opposite how does that sound to you? I would rather just figure out a way to be even more entertaining, honestly. Okay. So toast?

Yeah, keep going, sorry. It's just like, you know, I start off as someone who just post infographics on Reddit, right? And then I became a Hardstone YouTuber. and then a heartstone streamer and then a TFT streamer and moved to California and became like not just a heartstone gamer

but like a content creator that collabs with other content creators and then offline TV and then among it's blowing up and now like being friends with like even like people who I look up to

or like content I used to watch right it's just like this career is just a constant sense of like you know let's let's keep going let's keep going like i want to work in hollywood i want to write a script i want to like meet taylor swift kind of deal i want to be friends with taylor's sort kind of deal um but there's a sense of just constantly elevating yourself right and because we see streamers become irrelevant very often They might have 10,000 viewers one day and like next year the game dies. Or, you know, they take a break and become irrelevant.

And yeah, it's just constantly pushing yourself to raise yourself up. That sounds exhausting. Yeah, but, you know, in terms of job, like, it's a pretty good gig, you know. What are you hearing me say? You said it sounded exhausting? Yeah, but in general, like, do you get the sense? I feel like I'm trying to present something to you, and I don't think we're on the same page.

What do you think? What are you hearing me? When I try to understand you, what are you hearing? Like, what's your impression of what I think is going on with you? impression is that I revolve a lot of my identity and self-worth in being like an entertainer. And like you said it's exhausting or it's like people like constantly having to like push and like being an entertainer.

like you definitely meant to be taken as not a great thing, right? As a tiring thing to do over and over again but is that it? It just feels like

the scene is it's very dog-eat-dog kind of deal. And that's kind of what I like about it as well. So Yeah, I think that's a good summary. What are you hearing I'm at, what am I advocating that you do?

Not revolve myself worth around like, like I should do things. I don't know, people like should I learn to do things that's not content? Should I pick up a hobby for myself for my like, own mental health? but what if my own mental health is just, like my hobby is being an entertainer, right? Okay. So I'm going to ask you one more question. Toast, you can dodge as many questions as you want to.

Please be completely honest with this one. No dodging allowed, okay? On a scale of 1 to 10 of stupidity, 10 being this is the stupidest idea that's ever been conceived in the world. And one is this is absolutely brilliant. what do you think about the plan that I'm advocating for you? Is it just the dumbest fucking shit you've ever heard of? Or is it absolutely brilliant?

Uh-huh. What's this plan specifically? To try to be less of an entertainer. To try to show you. Which number was the dumb one? Ten is a dumb one. Then it's ten. Okay.

Good. Like, yeah, I mean, my, my career is based on being entertaining. I completely. Yeah, it'd be crazy to not think about content all the time. And it's like, I also enjoy doing it. It was something like, oh, God, I hate doing content. I can't think about that stuff right now. That makes sense.

But, like, the idea of getting more people to like me is really appealing to me. me like on social media like what post would people want um i agree like great why is it sometimes i try and force thing sorry why do you why do you want to be bigger i believe i was i am destined to have a big impact on the world it's like main character syndrome i have that like there's no way way I've been put on this earth to just be a regular person. I'm here to have an impact, like a big impact. And, you know, it might be on my desk bed that I realized,

oh, turns out I was just slightly above average. But like, even now, my expectation is that in 10 years, I would have done, or 10 or 20 years, that I would have done something that leaves a huge impact on the world. And I think at this rate, it might be something in the entertainment scene. Maybe in 20 years that streaming, you know,

it's like you got music, and then you have movies and TV, and streaming is like right alongside of it. And like, people will remember me as, I don't know, of Walt Disney of streaming or Steven Spielberg of streaming I could end up being something else

like I don't know maybe I start caring about world hunger or something but that's why I want to get bigger all the time it's like I'm fulfilling my quote unquote destiny beautiful

love it how do you feel about sharing that You think you overstepped a little bit? Showed a little bit of what's underneath the mask. I've talked about this a little bit. This also feeds into my whole ego persona, which is why I'm okay with it. And a lot of people say, like, everyone's the main character

in their own story, right? But I have met people who are just content with life in terms of, like, you know, being an accountant, starting a family. And that's what the majority of people end up doing. But I feel like there's that subset of people who I'm going to be a famous Hollywood star and they moved to California and things don't work out. I just have this expectation that things will always work out for me because it's meant to work out for me, right? So, Toast, I actually owe you an apology.

Why? Because I think I was trying to lead you somewhere And I think that was a mistake So I'm still pretty confident That I'm right about most of what I said I just don't think it's like I don't think it matters right now Oh well

What did you learn from What I said just now So you want to make an impact right? Yeah Like what is the nature of the impact that you're looking for, to leave a legacy, to be remembered, to be noticed. Right? And what I see that is, it's like, you're never going to be the ninth grader who doesn't talk to anyone ever again. And you're going to rise so high that no one will ever be able to

leave you behind where you are the ceiling, you determine the ceiling, you are the measure against which other people aim to be. You know, and like, that's when you'll be secure. Like, when you're absolutely on top is when you don't have to worry about being left behind. And so I see what drives you. I think it's great that it drives you. I think it's actually very adaptive.

I think it's going to cause you a lot of suffering years from now. But I think that maybe that's what we need to have another conversation. So this is what I'll leave you with, leave you with, okay? I think it's great that you're driven to be the best to be this wonderful thing. And I think it's like, my head is so far up my ass in terms of thinking that you should.

It's really a mistake on my part. Like I was applying my own value system to you. How old are you now toast? 29. Okay. So I'm like a decade older than you are. I'm married. I have kids and all that kind of stuff.

So like my position is different from yours. for what it's worth I felt the same way that you did many, many years ago. So I'd say that really the mistake that I made is I was trying to have a conversation with you that was like potentially a decade too early.

Maybe it'll never be there. Maybe actually you'll end up in a completely different place and the conversation will never be appropriate. But I'm still hearing I think the mistake that I made is that I get the sense that I mean I think I'm pretty confident that your drive to succeed comes from a sense of inadequacy. What do you think about that?

I can agree with that. I find myself when it comes to relationships and dating, I tend to gravitate towards girls that are having problems with their lives or like. needs to be fixed in some way or just like that I can be of use besides just like being smart or being funny or being caring but like actual direct use like you can demonstrate your value in the relationship you can bring yeah right demonstrating value is very important right and like why does someone need to demonstrate value toast I mean, that's just how humans work, right? Like, if you're going to date someone, you got to demonstrate value so that they awarded to you. That's not how humans work. That is how humans work. Like, in a relationship, like, I mean, value can be so many different things, right?

If they make you laugh, you know, that's value. If they're physically fit, you know, and you are. attracted that that's value so there's a key there's a key word there which is demonstrate demonstrate is about showing so i think the crazy thing here and this is where like i'm going to bark up this tree as long as i want to is never going to get anywhere which is like you bring value to the relationship without fixing someone's problems like that's the fundamental disagreement that you and i have what do you think about that right because like like this is this is how this works it's like why do you gravitate because you're like halfway there.

It's just like, why do you gravitate towards people who you can fix? It's because so you can like demonstrate your value. Why is demonstrating your value like, why is that important to you? Because it solves an anxiety that you're not bringing value. Because if you can show them and you can show yourself, hey, look what I bring to this relationship. Then it's like everything's fine. Does that make sense? It's like very like psychologically.

appeasing to bring value to a relationship. There's proof, there's evidence. What do you think about that? I just don't think my best rates are visible by like just norm day to day. Sure.

Being able to like be an entertainer and like of actual use like solving people's problems. It's more believe. believable from me when someone is attracted to that. Exactly. Well said. Right?

But now there's an important word there. And maybe I should just stop at this point. Like, let me know. Like, does this, you think we're making, like, is this worth our time? Or am I just, are we just ships passing in the night and like this is an unproductive conversation? What are you thinking? I need an honest answer from you, bro.

I think we're on the same page. in terms of like why my way of thinking isn't that it's a little like I should believe in myself that you know me as a person

is enough and like people would want to get into relationships with me with just being myself but it just makes me feel better man like if it just makes me feel a little

more confident, a little less insecure. Because I know that the bad thing about the way I think when it comes to fixing people is eventually I'm going to run out things to fix, right? Like let's say I found this girl and I fixed her up and she's an amazing woman. But one day, if I'm doing my job correctly, she's going to be fixed.

And there's nothing going to, like, there's no problem for me to solve. And that's when I start. Then what, nope, what is she going to do when you fix her? Well, maybe peace out. Or, you know, after all that time we- She's going to leave the nest because she doesn't need you anymore. Because the foundation of your relationship was you being of value to her. And if the only thing that you bring to her is value and you're done with that,

then she doesn't need you anymore. Oh, maybe in the time we were together, she liked what she saw and would stay. So I just got to rope them in first with being helpful. Got to have the right lure on the hook. Yeah. And then, you know, then I can demonstrate like Jeremy. What do you think about that? Seems perfectly fine.

I mean, the downside is, oh, she leaves. And I don't think I'm that foolish or naive to help someone who is only interested in, like, their own selves or like selfish nature. I think I'm really good at finding people that are good people. And if I'm helping them. that they already passed a lot of, like, my internal checkmark. I think so, too. But I do think it's important, Toast, to, like, recognize that at some point you're going to have to make that transition. And to recognize that that transition, where you show her who Jeremy is and maybe she'll stick around and she doesn't need you anymore, like, that's going to be terrifying for you.

Or is it not? there you seem skeptical I'm confident which means that I think we just we were on the same page there maybe we've split maybe I used too strong of a word maybe I should say hard or reluctant

I think if I was like that with a girl she would be the kind of girl to not just leave after she's fixed up but but this is the problem man

how do you know whether she's that kind of girl or not I mean this is all on top of my I know we didn't really talk about this file so don't like being committed in a relationship right now either so I don't think

it's just me not finding the right girl as well I think it's just I feel like when I'm dating someone It's essentially committing the rest of my life with them. That does sound to me to be a little bit different. But I mean, if you want me to toast, because, you know, this is, I'm a psychiatrist. I don't know if you do this, but if you knew this, but as psychiatrists, sometimes we can always find a way to prove ourselves right. It's one of the flaws of our profession.

It's one that I'm afraid I could be falling into, which is why I need your, you know, I need you to tell me. But I can twist that into exactly what we're talking. talking about now, too, if you want me to. You're going to give it a quick shot? No. I just think the problem isn't the girl here. I agree. What do you think the problem is?

I think the bigger problem is just I, like, it's either life or, like, death do us apart or it's just one-time fling. Yep. So why are you afraid to go down the death-do-us-part route? It's a long time. It's a long time. Breakups are hard. Breakups are really hard. And I don't like the idea of going through a breakup. Like, it's normal for relationships to not work out. but man, I feel really bad having to break up with someone

to a point where I just rather not be in a relationship. What's so hard about breakups? I mean, you care about this person a lot, right? But you also can't, like, you're gonna, if you guys are breaking up, you reach the point where it's better for you guys to not be with each other. And like all that time you shared with each other, like to just become essentially strangers after like so long.

That's that's, uh, I hate hurting people's feelings. And it's easier to just not be in a relationship this way. No one's feelings get hurt, right? Yeah. Sounds very logical. Yeah. Why? why does anyone ever engage in a relationship then?

Makes them happy. Would a relationship make you happy? I think until I'm okay with the idea of like break up being a possibility, I don't think a relationship will make me happy because it's always going to be in the back of my head. I'll tell us, hope you're in the photo. long haul because you're going to be with this person until you die or I hope you're ready

to break someone's heart and make them cry and like being in a relationship with that in the back of your mind the whole time gives me a lot of anxiety and like it makes me feel like a fraud when I'm with the person like oh god she doesn't know that I'm going to have to break up with her eventually yeah makes sense it sounds like trying to protect people. Yeah. Is that weird to say? No, no.

I think because of my like whole, I got to climb, I got to climb. I'm afraid that I'm applying that to my romantic life as well. It's like, oh, this girl is like this, this, this and this. But what if another girl comes along that's like even better in every single way? and I used to feel like that more strongly but these days I realize everyone is very different in the own way and honestly like time spent with someone

is worth something right like the memories you've built the hardship you endure I used to have this attitude that there exists perfect relationships out there but like realistic

for every human being in the world, there's like thousands of people that they can end up marrying and living the rest of their lives out with, right? There's no one right person. And it's crazy to think about, in my opinion, that we have this one life. And let's say there's multiple timelines.

Like in this timeline, I'm married woman A, and I'm happy and I die of old age with her. And there's not. another timeline. And I met woman B first. And I can marry her as well. And I dialed with her. Like marriage, even though it's meant to seem like such an important final choice,

there's no right answer. It could be not any woman, but there is like multiple possibilities. And that's scary because it's easy when there's a right choice. So when it's like, oh yeah, you can end up with her, girl old die together, or you can end up with her and grow old and die together. There's no right answer. And that is a little scary to me. Because I kind of grew up with the whole, like,

fairy tale, romantic outcome. But I'm learning that, you know, there are some people in life you're going to be more compatible with, And there are multiple partners that are suited for you to spend the rest of your life with. Makes a lot of sense, man. Yeah. I can imagine how that can be kind of like bewildering, right? Because if there isn't a right answer, then how do you know who to pick?

Can I think for a second? Yeah, sure. How are you feeling right now? Good. Okay. Good. I feel like we talked about relationships a lot. Which does make me just a tiny bit uncomfortable.

More because I know every, like, my fucking friends and family are watching. And they would, you know, people love talking and gossiping. And, uh, you know, I feel like relationships, the one thing. I try to keep quiet. about not for me, but for the people it might affect. Sure. I think you've mentioned several times. I think it's, it's, you made clear to me that from a value standpoint, you are,

you're very protective of the people that you care about and that you're actually okay, like, you know, being attacked personally or like being made fun of. But when it comes to the people that you care about, it's like the no-no zone. Yeah, because everyone has different about, I. can set my own boundaries, but I would never want to go for someone else. So I know that the topic is relationships. What's your understanding of why I keep on asking? Because I'm the one who's driving the relationship conversation, right?

That's me in the driver's seat. Why do you think I'm driving there? Is it because it's the one thing I don't want to talk? Sort of. Like I'm hiding something there. or like, there's something there. Yep, that's why. Good.

That's exactly right. So can I explain what I think is there? Mm-hmm. So I think like the challenge is going to be that you have too many right answers if we talk about anything else. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yes. So it's going to be too easy to pull me into an intellectual conversation about what's good to do and what's bad to do.

So I think relationships is like where like there's a lot of stuff like, you know, here that I think that you can't quite make as much of an abstract argument about. So when I when I ask you about relationships, I don't know if you notice, but I'm not asking anything about anyone that you've been in a relationship with. Like I get that you have that boundary. I'm, you know, I'm asking about you in the relationship, how you have. approach relationships, how you think about relationships, what you're afraid of. And I think the reason is because the relationship is like the thing that brings the tension between Jeremy and toast, kind of like front and center for me, like out of everything we've talked about.

Because I think you can be like a noble friend and you're like platonic relationships. I can be, I think you probably are a wonderful sibling and a wonderful son. I think that you do right by a lot of people because you care about a lot of people. I think relationships is the one thing where like things are going to start to feel a little bit more contradictory. It's also challenging because as a streamer, friendship is so complicated already. Right? Because there's like, are we friends because we like each other? Or are we friends because we collab and we make good content together? Like, why is this person hanging out with me?

it all gets tangled together, right? Because this is a professional relationship? Is it a platonic relationship? Like, it's all tangled. But what I'm hearing from you, Toast, is oddly enough, even though you disagree with me, I'm kind of finding that, no, actually you don't. I think we're, as you mentioned, I think we're actually kind of on the same page. I think you've got to continue to climb.

But the concern that I have is at some point, I think if you want to be in a head. healthy romantic relationship. And I mean, you know these things, dude. Like, you're the one who's giving me the ammo because you're like, I try to date people who are busted in some way so that I can try to fix them. And then like, I know it sounds kind of weird, but I think everyone can actually identify with that. And why do you try to fix them?

It's because it makes you feel good, right? Like, they know what you're bringing to the table so that you don't have to worry about being, and sorry if this is out of line, but you don't have to worry about being ninth grade Jeremy. Because you can, you feel more comfortable with like them knowing toast because then you don't have to be ninth grade Jeremy. And you want to rise to the top of your field because if you're at the top of your field, you certainly ate ninth grade Jeremy.

So I hear, I see a theme, which I don't know if it's right or wrong. It's really for you to think about. You got to tell me like, that's right or that's wrong. Because I think you do bring a lot of value to people. I think you're a very good entertainer. and I'm a little bit afraid that it's going to be hard for you to show someone. If someone knows your fame, it's going to be hard for them to, like you even told us, right? Like you're kind of like Brad Pitt and your buddy Brad.

And making that transition is going to be hard. And there are all these different things that like the theme that I see here is that you're trying to move away from ninth grade Jeremy in as many ways as possible. Either you date someone who you can fix or you demonstrate your value because the idea that you have intrinsic value is like kind of confusing. And I know that intellectually you understand that concept, but let's be clear, having intrinsic value does not make you a successful streamer. Having extra intrinsic value makes you a successful streamer. And so you have a world that reinforces this principle, which is absolutely true.

And at the end of the day, life is good enough. So what are we even talking about here? Which I get completely. Because here I am pushing you to change something that you don't think is not only broken. It's not broken. It's not broken. It's the reason for your success. And here's fucking this guy telling you to like be different. Like show people what's underneath the mask.

Like show people that you can be ninth grade Jeremy. You're like, how fucking dumb is that? Mm-hmm. The whole reason that I am where I am is. because I moved away from ninth grade Jeremy and I became someone else. I learned how to be entertaining. I learned how to be useful to the people around me

instead of someone who sits alone in the cafeteria and doesn't talk to a soul. I don't want to be that person. And you're right. Like, your success is because you aren't ninth grade Jeremy. You're disguised toast. Right? Like you're toast. That's who you are. You bring value. You protect people. You collaborate

with people. You bring you, you, you bring people to their full potential and you're going to make your mark on the world. You're going to start streaming before the first TFT streamer starts. You're going to stop streaming after the last TFT streamer starts. No way to get left behind if you're at the front of the pack. I like having

power and authority because I trust myself to use it responsibly. when it's other people at the helm like if certain people have like power or like authority over others

I feel like it's not always used fairly like there's injustice and what other people do and I trust myself the most that given a leadership role

or like a power dynamic that I would always make the right choice for everyone. I have this big sense of righteousness or like justice in my, like in my world, like I hate, like I hate it when people are rude or bullies. Like I get really triggered by it. And that's also one of the reason why I push myself a lot. Because people are selfish and they're prone to doing stupid, selfish things that put themselves ahead. It's like that marathon again, right?

When I'm leading the pack, it's easy for me to look back and, like, see where everyone is. Elevate other people, bring them forward. Yeah. But I've seen what it's like for others to be, like, ahead of the pack. like to have the power but not use it for others and I don't like it when that happens so I like that's why I feel like I'm going to be constantly bigger

and also again I don't want them leave it in this as well do you actually mean that or was that a joke I do feel a little I do feel negative feelings like whether it's sadness or like resentment when someone just completely up and

leaves not like disappear but more just like hey I'm going to associate with those guys now you know like adios kind of deal I'm going to go play with those guys because that's my crew now you know I get more viewers with them or I get more attention with them.

But I know it's normal to want that, but it does feel like empty nest syndrome where I just, you know, at the very least I wish they would come visit every now and then instead of just making it feel like they forgot about us. Not just me specifically, but like, I mean, it does affect me, but like if they came back to the nest and still like. played with, like, other friends or people that used to play with, like, that's fine. But when they completely up and just only focus on their own thing and, like, branch out, I do feel sad.

I feel sad, I guess. Yeah. So, for what it's worth toast, I think it makes sense that you trust yourself. You know, I think you seem like a good dude. I can understand why you trust yourself. I think it's kind of tricky, though, because the more that you, the more you're forced to trust yourself, the harder it is to trust other people. And what I'm kind of hearing even as you kind of talk about emptiness syndrome is it's like, it's like sort of a, you know, you talk about sadness. I'm feeling a lack of fairness, a lack of reciprocity.

a certain not just sadness like if my dog passes away like that's sad like there's a certain like not quite maliciousness

but like maybe even obliviousness or lack of compassion or consideration that feels very unfair to me about what you're describing okay

can I can I toss one last uh um Can I ask one last provocative thing your way? Sure. So I could also imagine, given what we just talked about, that you trust in yourself and it's hard to trust other people

because people have, like, you know, taken advantage of your kindness and they've left you hanging. Fair? Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that it would be hard to want to be in a committed relationship. Because, like, that's kind of the situation where, like, if you're going all in and someone leaves the nest then,

because that's when they're not supposed to leave, right? Like, that's the whole point of a committed relationship. It's like a promise. And when I just kind of put myself in your shoes for a second, like I kind of think about what would hurt the most is it's if I go all in and they say they go all in and then they don't go all in. Mm-hmm. And that like I don't think I would want to open myself up to that possibility of hurt.

I feel like in all the dating I've done, you know, in the last four or five years, I've always been the one with one foot out the door. And I don't know why. Like, what do you think? I think when you have one foot out the door, you minimize the hurt. Like, oh, you can't get upset at me because I said it wasn't serious kind of deal. like, I just feel bad. Like, I feel like I'm lying to a girl when I started dating them.

Because I feel like the girls are always going in with, like, strong commitment with the expectations that we're going to get married. And when I enter, like, dating a relationship, it's always very, it's probably not going to work out. and I always feel like some anxiety like, oh, I have this knowledge that it won't work out, but she doesn't know. So I'm misleading her and I should just break up with it right now. So I feel like we could dig into this more. I'm sort of, I want to be a little bit cognizant of time.

So let me ask you like one or two, because it's too juicy toast, too much of an entertainer. you know why do you think you have one foot out the door right because i i get what you're saying that like you know it's sort of unfair to them because you have one foot out the door when things start and you try to be transparent with them but damn it you're such a megachad they fall in love with you anyway but what why don't you let me put it this way so let me try to reframe a little bit Like, is it that you have one foot out the door or you only put one foot in the door? Maybe it's the second one. I don't feel like I've ever went into a relationship with really high hopes.

And maybe I shouldn't have gotten into those relationships in the first place. So what keeps you from having high hopes? I don't know. I keep like sometimes I wish I would come across a girl that makes me feel like bam I am ready for marriage kind of deal I don't know if a girl like that exists because I've met a lot of amazing girls or talented but would you let yourself fall in love uh i don't think so i think i think i need to be okay with a relationship not working out because if i'm not okay with that if i enter a relationship

like that anxiety eats me up because i have tried like dating and being in a relationship with someone And like I just remember like one weekend like that it's in the back of my head just like oh god what if we break out what if we break up what if we break out and it made me like not want to be they made me check out from the relationship like almost like in the self-sabotaging way of just like okay let's just get it over with then. And I feel like I would feel like that no matter who it is and that I. I need to somehow be okay with the idea that it's normal in a relationship for people to break up. Things don't always work out. Sure.

But yeah, I mean, I think that would be wonderful. We could wave a magic wand and have you be okay with it. But I think the real question is why aren't you okay with it to begin with? I don't want to hurt people's feelings. That's rude. Um, like, why do that to someone you care about, right?

Like, even if I, we don't end up together. Like, if I'm dating them, it's because I care about them a lot. But where do you get the idea that things are going to end poorly, right? Because there's that thought in your head that you're just going to end up hurting her. And it's kind of interesting. Because it's sort of like this weird trap where, like, the more you like her, the more you care about her, you have this thought that oh my god we're going to break up i don't want to hurt her and the more you pull back well if we're not breaking up we're spending the rest of our life together right that's

pretty scary what's scary about that i don't know like things changed so fast like as a person as well like last year this time i didn't i wasn't even playing among us and now i played among us and it's already ended and It was in the span of, what, nine months? I don't know what the future will hold, you know? Like, when I think about divorces, honestly, it's comforting. Because at the end of the day, people get divorces all the time, right? And I should be okay with breakup.

People break up all the time. People get divorced. That's why there's divorce lawyers. It's so common that there's a law specialization dedicated to divorces. but I think I would want to know that I am going to marry this person before I start dating them, which is almost impossible because you kind of make that decision once you're in a relationship with them. I think it's a very good insight. What would it mean if you knew ahead of time that you were marrying someone?

What would that do for your mind? I think it would be a lot more comforting and, wash away my anxiety. I wish. Yeah. What would it wash away? Like the idea that I'll be hurting someone. Like, I'm okay with the idea of spending the rest of my life with someone.

Like, that part isn't scary. The part that scary is, like, it's not working out. And you have to have the conversation of a divorce or breakup. Yeah, so I see that's where I think it makes a lot of sense, toast. I think I'm going to once again kind of like, I think there's a tricky thing, right? Because when you've got one foot out the door, part of the reason, sometimes the reason that people have one foot out the door is so that they're not left in the room when the other person leaves. And I don't know if it's like bias on my part, but I'm hearing like this theme of like uncertainty. Like Among Us was everything nine months ago.

Like I can't count on it being there now. And I think it's tricky because like there's something else that I'm translating in my mind, which is that you care about other people and you don't care about yourself. So like there it is again where it's sort of like, oh, like, you know, my friends come first. Other people come first. I don't want to hurt this person. But like what I think it's hard because what about them hurting you? And I think this is why like, you know, I asked you earlier, would you let yourself fall in love with

someone and you said no and that makes perfect sense to me because as long as you're not in love like they're not going to leave you behind they're not going to leave the nest one day when you talk about a fear of commitment I think it's I think it's weird it's not that you're wrong here I think it's just I'm sensing more than what you're saying which is that I think you genuinely are like a really good person and you try really hard to like protect your friends and care about people that you love. But I think, like, sometimes it's kind of hard because I don't think you let yourself feel the same way about them that they do, that they feel about you because you are a gigachad. And so they do fall in love.

And then when you break up with them, because you've had one foot out the door the whole time, and they get confused because they love you so much, but they can feel you pulling away. And then you feel bad because you can see it happening and you can see yourself not being able to love them back. and then you like leave and then they feel hurt. And then you're like, oh my God, it's going to happen again because I can't let myself love. And you're damn right, it's going to happen again. Until you let yourself fall in love, bro. And that's going to be scary because if you fall in love,

maybe you're going to be in the room, you're going to be decorating, you're going to be organizing yourselves, and one day you're going to come home and there's going to be no one there. Honestly, I thought about this. It's like I wish, I sometimes secretly wish I was in that position of being the one who's being hurt

I think I would much rather have a girl break up with me than me breaking up with a girl because if the girl broke up with me and I'm sad about it that means that means

that at least I cared a lot right And it also means I didn't have to be the one to, like, be the one hurting someone else. Yeah. You're the one who's suffering. You're the one who's alone. Yeah. Are you good at being alone, toast?

Yeah. I love being alone. Not like love, love, but there is some sense of comfort in being alone every now. Has there been a period of your life where you felt very alone? But even in a weird way, sad but not sad. Like sadness feels normal. I don't think so. Not like sad, sad, but more just irrelevant.

Yeah. Sounds like ninth grade journey. So I know you're comfortable being that. Like I said, irrelevant, you know, is now I feel like, I'm really pushing you to accept what I'm saying, so that's a mistake. But I just love it if you think about it. I think like irrelevant is such a good word. Oh man.

It says so much, right? It shows so much about your ambitions, your legacy, the mark that you want to make on the world. And I think this is where like I know it's like, I'm marking up the wrong tree here, but I don't think you need to do anything else to be relevant. And I know that's a good perplexing to you. So that's fine. we can just kind of agree to disagree there. But I think what you've accomplished in this life is enough. I think you've had a very powerful impact on a lot of individuals.

And you'll say that too, but you won't accept it if I say it to you. I feel like I haven't had the impact I want because the gaming scene is so small. Sure. It's growing and I want to be at the forefront of it But I am not satisfied with what I've done Yeah, so I I support you 100% in wanting to do more If you feel like your work on this earth Is not complete yet and that you have like something more that you need to offer the world

Then biol means go for it like seriously i i support you a hundred percent i sometimes worry that that can come at the cost of yourself and i know you're willing to pay that price i know that helping other people get brings you a lot of fulfillment so i i don't get the sense that you're like sacrificing every day oh my god it's so hard to be me you know like you enjoy life like it's good so i'm not saying it that way but, you know, I think there's something to be said of, of, there's, accomplishing something and making the world a better place is a wonderful thing. And that doesn't, that's not the only thing that makes you relevant.

And that's where I think we diverge, which is fine. You know, I'm, I'm okay with that. You okay with that? Yeah. I think it's just a streamer mindset. Like, I know, like, everyone has intrinsic self-worth, but I just happen to, like, thrive in the industry that is very numbers-based. And, yeah.

So here's what I kind of leave you with. You know, if you have additional questions or anything, let me know. I'd say that if at some point you decide that you want to better understand, if you want to learn why you have one foot in the door and one foot out the door, if you want to work through some of those anxieties that you have at the beginning of the relationship, I think that's something that can be done. I don't know exactly what the follow-up is there. I'm not saying I can do it for you.

I'm not saying that you have to do it with me. You can definitely do it with anyone. You can do it by yourself. You can do it with a friend. But that's the one thing that I can get behind you in terms of, like, you not having fulfilled your destiny yet and that you're destined for something greater, 100% I'm with you. So be bigger. Do more. Go outside of gaming.

I think it's like, I think you've got to do that. I think it's, you're gifted. And I don't know that anyone else can do what you're supposed to do. And at the same time, if you're having trouble in your romantic relationships, if you find yourself, crossing 30 and wondering maybe you do want to settle down. And you find yourself like recognizing that you're looking for short-term things, but that there's a part of you that may want longer-term things. Now you've got to be careful because there's a part of your mind that it's going to tell you

that short-term things are better than long-term things. And if I had to give you one piece of advice toast, it would be be careful about what's better for you and what you want. and be careful about your mind convincing you that what is better for you is what you want because those are actually two different things and as long as you believe as long as you do what's better for you

I don't think I think it's going to be really hard for you to fall in love because love isn't better for you it's fucking dumb it's foolish and it's dangerous and it's risky and it can hurt you and it can hurt them but you know sometimes you got to make that deck that's all legendary because

it's not about making the best deck like fuck the meta that's about the memes maybe maybe one day if i feel like with like mental health and stuff just like coming on the show like these conversations help nudge me in the right direction but at the end of the day the subject needs to they gotta want to

fix something about themselves or like change their way of thinking right? Yep. So I apologized once for pushing you because I felt like I was leading instead of following.

I think you're right. I don't think you want to. What I'm saying is that if one day you change your mind you know and you're looking for some kind of support shoot me a DM just got to send me a message I'm ready to love Dr. Kay Give it a couple more years like I said once you cross 30 let me know if you change your mind

because I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing now for the record I think it's just if you decide that you want to do things different that can have another conversation about it. And I apologize for imposing my own value system. It took me a little while to figure out where you are, and that maybe where I want you to be is like, that's where I want you to be. But it's not where you are.

It's not where you want to be, which is like my mistake. So I'm sorry for that. No, no worries. Yeah, I think I'm very stubborn. Like, I am very confident in the way I think. in the way I think, sometimes to a fault, like to a point of stubbornness.

And, yeah, it probably usually takes me, like, a while to slowly, like, think about it from other angles. But, like, conversation like this is really helpful because it makes me think, you know, let's maybe think about it from another angle, just even as a thought experimentation. So, yeah, I will think about love and relationships a little more. Yeah, one last thing is think about, do you have one foot out the door or do you only ever put one foot in? I think you're right. Do you just put one foot in? Yeah. So it's right.

So why won't you put both feet in? Just think about it Too risky Not to me, but to the other person Yeah, I mean this Anyway, maybe we can Because then I just I want to wrap this up

But it's just too juicy You know, you're baiting me into playing a twisting nether Before you like Do something else It's like that's what I feel like I'm going to spend all my entire turn eight manna, they just wipe your board, and it's like, so juicy. Yeah.

This was a good talk. Yeah. Thank you very much. I hope that this ends up okay for you. You know, if you have any kind of negative fallout or anything like that, please let us know. So far, knock on what hasn't happened yet, but, you know, sometimes people reveal things. People will troll them, things like that.

We'd love to help you clean. up a mess that we created. Uh-huh. And I'm sorry that I didn't quite listen to you as well as I could have. I don't know. I felt like you did fine. Like I think part of, like, it's because it's hard to just like talk a person and have like, to try and figure out certain things off what you see online.

So, I mean, it didn't feel like you said anything that. warrants any kind of second guess or apologies. I felt really comfortable. Okay. And yeah, it was good times. I like talking about dreamer life stuff. So, I mean, it doesn't have to be like a Dr. K session. Like if you ever want to just have me come on and talk about like the mindset of a streamer or whatever.

I'm always very open to it. Sure, sure. I'm hearing you say you're open to it, but I'm confused about whether there's an invitation there or not. I mean, I'm really lazy, so I don't normally reach out, but like if you have, because I don't know what other, like, segments you do, but if you ever do a segment that needs, a streaming expert or anything that you think I'd be a good fit for,

then yes, I would be happy to come on and give my two cents. If you even want that, not that I'm inviting myself to spread my ingeniosity around. I feel like this is another one foot in the door, one foot out the door kind of thing. I just don't know what else you have going on. No, so, but here's, here's,

I'm honestly, toast I'm just confused. So like, do you think that we, there's an important conversation that needs to be, because I'm, I'm getting signals from you, but the words don't seem to be matching up. So what I'm hearing from you is that there are a lot of important things about being a streamer, which need to be talked about. Mm-hmm. Is that correct?

Yes, like, streamer problems. Like, when some streamers complain about, oh, yeah. Yeah. I read a bad comment in chat and made me really sad. I see them get like Flackford because it's like, bro, you're making money playing video games. Why are you focusing on one negative comment when there's so much positive comments?

And like it just conditioned these streamers to, oh God, better not complain about anything then. I like talking about those stuff. Okay. Because my friends go through it. Okay. Sure. Yeah.

Okay. I understand now. Thank you for, thank you very much for explaining that. And I'm also hearing you also, there's another message that I'm hearing in that, is that this isn't going to be a conversation between Dr. Kane, Jeremy. This is going to be a conversation between two streamers about mental health related stuff. Yeah, yeah, right? It's like commentary about the industry as opposed to a personal conversation. Yeah, 100%.

I feel like I got most of the things I want to talk about out with this session. Yep. I'm hearing the same thing. Thank you so much for clarifying. Yeah, I'm totally down. Like, I don't know what that looks like or how that looks, but I'm totally interested in talking about the scene and the industry as well. Because I find it fascinating.

So, cool. Well, thanks for coming on toast. You know, I get that you're lazy. And then, you know, we may reach out to you. And then I don't know how often we should reach out to you. And then I don't know how much time has passed before you feel. bad reaching back out to us, but you can, you know, if we send you a message next week and you don't do anything about it for six months, feel free to message us after six months,

no big deal. And if we're a hammer message, you just like let us know and we'll back off. So thanks a lot, dude. And good luck. Good luck with your collabs. It sounds like you're helping a lot of people grow and stuff like that, so more power to you. I know I've personally heard a lot of awesome things about you being in other people's lives and that a lot of people really appreciate you for who you are so thank you for doing that happy to do it yeah thank you for having me on

appreciate your time and what you do for not just me but a lot of my friends and I mean this maybe just ties back to like the way I think but like the biggest thing you did for me was wasn't this is what you did for like Yvonne and Lily and Skara and Poki and Michael and you know that's really important because they are not as good at expressing their emotions and I thought your platform was very very important to them So okay. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah, it was my pleasure. I love talking to each and every one of those people. You all have a really amazing crew at OTV, really solid folks. So take care, toast. All right, good talk. Bye, bye, bye, everyone. Farewell. All right. Toastars. Yeah, so that was a...