HealthyGamerGG - Helping a Father and Son Reconnect

Episode Date: July 18, 2020

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So what we're going to do is have a conversation with, and what's your name, dude? Zach. Zach. And then we're talking with dad. You've already made me before. I noticed. I'm actually remembering now. Okay.

And Zach, what's your dad's name? My dad's name is Dave. My mom's just here to say hi. Okay. Hello, Mom. And what's your name, mom? Kim. Okay.

Would it be inappropriate if I winked at you? Not at all. Okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to talk with Zach, right? First. Yes. And then Dave. And then y'all aren't allowed to watch, okay, when we're talking with Zach. And then when we're talking with Dave, Zach, you're not allowed to watch.

Okay, because presumption of privacy. So everyone on the internet can watch, but y'all can't watch. And then we're going to talk with the two of you together. Does that sound good? Yep. Any questions? Okay, cool. Let's get started. So, Zach, let's get started with you, man. So I'll ask your parents to step out of the room. Yeah. Yeah, so Zach, didn't we talk about your family dynamics when you came on stream like back in March? A little bit, not a whole lot, but... Okay. Briefly. Okay. Yeah, so tell me what's... Oh, yeah, there we go. So tell me, are your... Your PhD, student? Dropped out.

Dropped out. That's right. So that's what we talked about, right? Yeah, I remember. How are you doing, man? Doing okay. I took your advice and went and got a therapist and have been talking with her for a couple months.

I joined the group coaching. Awesome. Still some like stuff mentally that I have to work out with myself, but I'm kind of making a little bit of progress. Okay, great. So you say you're making a little bit of progress. Yeah. Well, I'm starting to find out that there's a lot of things, right? Yeah.

It's more complicated than I thought it was. So, Zach, the first thing I'm going to say is that I think this is very common where people, I think you, my guess or my hope is that you've made a lot of progress, but it's hard to see that right now. If you are, if you have been working with a therapist and if you're beginning to see what the road ahead is, then chances are you've actually gained a lot of insight. But you'll, I mean, hopefully that'll become clear in a year or two when you see how far you've come. You know, it's sometimes hard to see like your progress, like day to day. But you look back at yourself like two or three years ago and you'll be like, wow, I was in a really bad spot.

And I'm like, actually okay now. So that's my hope for you. Okay. Cool. So tell me a little bit about what's going on with your dad or you. And I'm going to just grab my notebook. Hold on. Okay.

So this is It's kind of hard to like specifically say it's with my dad Right because this is sort of my whole family We have a complicated stuff going on Okay, so tell us about that So I'll start with about a week ago on like Thursday or Friday My mom came into my room and was like hey we need to talk about some stuff And she just sort of like spilled out to me

Her thoughts of how our family was doing And so I agreed to it which is that oh man it's so complicated okay what did she say to you this was like a couple hour long conversation but she was telling me

that she started with with it's difficult with my brother so my brother my younger brother has autism he's like four years younger than me and because of COVID and other things that has caused complications for him and has caused him to get a little bit

more crazy than he usually is. Okay. And it's been getting worse and worse and worse to the point that his therapist has told my mom, this needs to be fixed soon because he's bordering on manic, which is like pretty severe. Yeah, that's very terrifying. So there's... How does it feel when a therapist tells you this needs to be fixed soon?

Oh, that's that's really bad, right? Like that feels it's scary. It's anxiety inducing. Like, I've always known that he's got his issues and that we want to fix them. But it's really terrifying to hear that like he could be put in a mental hospital if we don't get this dealt with. And that's just scary. Yeah. And who's who takes like who who is responsible for dealing with it?

kind of my mom. I mean, my parents together, but I feel like a lot of the pressures on my mom. Okay. That's kind of interesting because, you know, I, and I'm not blaming anyone, but I kind of think about, you know, if someone is bordering on manic and you're their provider, if you're the therapist, like, I don't know exactly what the situation is and I know a lot, especially with autism has to do with the home environment. But like, generally speaking, I would think that that's, you know, if I had a patient who is bordering on manic, like, I think I'm kind of responsible for that, no? Is the doctor? Yeah, it's my personal take on this is kind of all over the place. I think that he doesn't have the best therapists. Okay. But then, so this is where I sort of link it a little bit back to my dad's is,

I think he's part of the problem. Okay. I don't think he's the only part. I think there's a lot of elements again, COVID. but I think that he's part of it because he's a very type A personality. He's about rules. He's about strictness and schedules and hitting things to the letter. And autism does not fit well into that structure.

And so if, you know, we plan something and we don't warn my brother adequately enough, he'll freak out about it. That's just what he does. And then my dad will get mad at him and try to force rules. on him and try and force the structure onto him and say, we have to do this. You can't follow your patterns. You have to go do this. And like, I can see kind of where he's coming from that it's very hard to work with a child like this who like half the time not care what you say and not do what you say and they like to fight a lot. But as the parent, it's on you to work around that. You had

the child, you're supposed to raise them. If they're going to be troublesome, then you have to the accepting of that, not fight with them and yell at them and make it worse. Okay. Okay. So, Zach, can I just share some, like, thoughts? I know I should ask you more questions. But the first thing is that, like, all that, like, I agree with you 100%, but bluntly, all that shit goes out the window when you have a kid with autism.

Yeah. Because it is just so hard. Yeah. And it's just like, yeah. So I don't disagree with what you say. And at the same time, having worked with parents who have autistic kids, it's tough. Like, it tests, yeah. I mean, it's just hard.

I lived with him for 18 years. So you know, what's it like to live with him? It's been different at different points. So when I was younger, so like before I left for college and everything, it was really hard because he was going through puberty, and so hormones start to mess with him. And he just gets like kind of all over the place and like unpredictable as heck. I mostly just like tried to not interact with them because it was really hard to know when it would be a positive or when it would be a negative interaction and use it was a negative interaction. what does that mean it would

it would usually lead to fighting of some kind like it was really hard to be able to relate to him in any way to have a conversation and again he has autism so like he doesn't think normally and so like having a conversation he's just like following formulas he's not like trying to communicate with you

and so like it wasn't really there wasn't really much of a point to it and it would mostly just always devolved to him saying something, I don't even know why this has been so many years. I've lost track what it was like, but it would just, like, result in fighting of some kind. So you, like, rolled your eyes there. Do you know what, do you know what the emotion there is? No. How'd you feel as you were, as you were thinking about what it was like to try to communicate with your brother? I don't know. It was just really hard. It was like, yeah. Can I toss out a couple of

words? Yeah. Exhausted? Yeah. Defeated? Yes. Mm-hmm. It's defeated. Yes. That's, if you guys were watching, that facial expression that's acted, that is the facial expression of defeat. It's, it's, and we can kind of see that. I'm sorry to do that with that, if I'm kind of diving right in, but like, you know, I can, I can see kind of where you're coming from, because what we're hearing from you is that, like, you tried to interact with your brother. But part of the problem with autism is that he literally doesn't know how to communicate. Yeah. And so, like, you can try, but, like, it's just going to kind of bounce off.

And in a sense, it can feel like no matter how hard you try, you end up fighting anyway. And then you're kind of defeated. Yeah. So sorry for kind of going down all these different roads. But it sounds tough, dude. Like, it sounds actually really, really hard. Yeah, so it was it was really hard at that age. I mean, there was some like, like big specific moments I can remember.

There was one point where I don't remember what happened, but somehow he got really angry at me and he grabbed one of the kitchen knives that started chasing me around the house. I was like 12 years old being chased by an eight-year-old with a knife. I was freaking out. There was one time we got in an argument and he shoved me and I fell through a glass table and got cut up on my arms and everything. I mean, this is, like, there was crazy things that happened. But I went to college.

I got away from the family for however many years, four, five, six years. And then when I came back and I was watching your streams and stuff, I decided to like try and interact with him as if he's a human rather than as if he's disabled person. And it went from before I was the person that absolutely couldn't interact with him. and he like pretty much hated me and I pretty much hated him to where now I'm the only person in the family who can like pretty much talk to him normally

and he will kind of do what I say. He doesn't care at all what my parents say anymore. So it's almost like the rules have been reversed. Hold on. So much confusion there. Okay. Yeah. First thing is how the fuck is that a little bit of progress on your part? Number one.

Okay. So we don't have to go down that road, but like, can we just appreciate for a moment that also like what the fuck does that have to do with watching our streams? Because I don't. Anyway, that's another question, which we can answer on a different day. I don't know if that's relevant. I mean, I'm happy. And the third thing, and this is, I think, what is important is like, how do you feel about that? There's some mixed emotions to that. Part of it is happiness that, like, I was able to connect with him. And it's like I was being an asshole to him before. Now I'm not, right? Like, he really struggles to communicate and I'm able to, like, at least to a small degree, help him with that.

So this is important, Zach. Why do you think, I'm not judging you for it because of this is important. why do you think you were an asshole to him before? Where does asholy come from? I was just, I was really impatient with a lot. I was like trying to do as high school kids do and deal with high school dumb, stupid things. And I didn't, at least in my mind,

I didn't have the time to deal with this crazy child who was being a nuisance and bothering that time. And so I would just be very rude to him and put off things. I was just, It's really hard to, like, give specific details, but in general, just kind of a dick. Yeah. So I think that's an important discussion. Also, one that we don't have to dig into today.

But I think a lot of people who are an asshole kind of behavior, there's some reason like that you don't even understand about why you treated him that way. But something has changed in you where you're treating him a different way. And I don't know what that is. It sounds like that's awesome. And it sounds like he's lucky to have a brother. who is thoughtful about the way that you choose to interact with him

and that you make effort to treat him not as a disabled person but also not as a normal human being but you treat him as him and your brother is incredibly lucky to have someone like that in their life I cannot impress that upon you enough

but let's keep going am I jumping in too much No. Okay. So you were mean to him. So now he communicates only with you. You have happiness because you used to be an asshole to him. And what other emotions do you have? I also feel a little bit upset because I feel a little bit upset about like how my parents can't do the same thing. At least not right now.

Okay. So let's unpack that a little bit. What does upset mean? Frustrated. angry. Angry of what? Those are all umbrella emotions, which means they're hiding other emotions.

I'm disappointed, I guess. There we go. Disappointed in what? That I'm some stupid kid. He was able to come to this realization that I was making mistakes, and then I was able to adjust that and fix that. And that happens, despite the fact that they're supposed to be like

the knowledgeable parents. There we go. There's a keyword they're supposed to. Okay, I'm a stupid kid. Okay, Zach, there's a ton there. Can we analyze as we go, or do you want, like, you want me to hear your story first? Think about that.

I guess I'm kind of curious how we'll be able to get through everything if we're analyzing along the way. That's the concern. Yeah. So then let's just... Okay, I'm going to do one more analytical piece, and then we'll get through everything, okay? So the first thing is that,

you're disappointment. So I think you blame your parents. What do you think? Yeah. Right. So there's disappointment. And that also is like a little bit more politically correct than blame. But what I'm hearing from you is that you blame your parents for not figuring out what you figured out. So there's there's something also there where you say, I'm a stupid kid. I don't think you're a stupid kid. I think you grossly underestimate the value of what you've accomplished because some autistic people go their entire life without having someone in their life

who does what you did. Because what you did is not easy. It's fucking hard. And yeah, and I think that you have to be careful because as long as you see what you do is easy, you're going to resent your parents more.

Okay. What do you think about that? That's interesting because you were saying that it's really hard and I was thinking myself, it doesn't feel that hard. It feels pretty easy. But if you reframe it that way, that's interesting. Yep. So we can continue thinking about that. And I would just really ask you to, I know it feels easy to you, but just stop and think for a second about how easy it is to effectively communicate with an autistic adult. Yeah. So don't confuse you being really good at something

with the fact that it's easy. Okay. But we'll get to that. Anyway, I promise I'll shut up now and I'll hear the rest of your story. Okay. So you feel blame, you feel happiness. What else? Those are kind of the main things, I would think.

I also kind of feel bad for him, right? Because I almost imagine having autism. I don't know. We don't know a whole lot about it, right? So it's difficult to be able to say. But I almost imagine as you are a normal person trapped in this strange mind that you can't control. And so he's trying to find outlets and trying to help himself in that way, I think. Yeah. I don't really know through, but I think. And he's just trying to, I mean, he's almost just trying to be normal, right?

Mm-hmm. He just wants to experience what other people will experience. And, I mean, for one, it's really it's frustrating to not be able to do that because of your own limitations but I also feels very frustrating to not be able to do that because of other people around do not understanding like one of the things that I hate the most is when someone misunderstands me and to have that always happening constantly like that'd be off yeah so it sounds like you feel kind of sad for him yeah um do you feel burdened at all that like you kind of become the last best hope for him? I don't know. I mean, a little bit because I'm actually planning to go to leave once

COVID goes down. I want to move to Japan. And so I'll be like, see ya. Right? I feel a little bad about it. But I don't know. I also kind of don't really feel that burdens by it. It's just like I'm not being here for him while I can be. And hopefully I can get my parents to realize the same thing. and then realize what well sort of like realize the same things that i have okay about how to yeah how to interact with them i guess how do your parents feel about you piecing out after i haven't told me okay because i came to this realization like a week or two ago okay and it's so sort of like a plan in my head that i haven't really like done anything about yet but i'm the more

and more i'm like sat on it and i really really want to do it so okay Sounds like you made a lot progress, man. I know, right? I feel like now I was exaggerating when I said a little. Yep. So that has something to do with your perception of your own confidence. Oh, yeah. Yes.

When I was saying earlier about there's a lot of things I need folks on, so that's sort of what I mean. Okay. So now we sort of get your perspective. So what's going on in the family or what was the conversation when, yeah, so fill me in a little bit about the conversation that you and your mom had. Tell me about your dad or tell me about the therapist saying he's bordering on manic, whichever one you think is better. I'll just try and continue this conversation if I can remember. A lot of the conversation was her explaining to me her perspective on a situation that had happened earlier. So we had some, my parents had hired window cleaners to come to our house and clean the windows.

They were burdened with whatever was going on. they were thinking about some crazy stuff. So they didn't get to tell me or my brother until the night before that, hey, the window actually they told me, but they didn't tell my brother, I think. And so I knew that I was going to wake up in the morning and there's going to be windows cleaners there. There'd be some crazy stuff going out in the house. My brother didn't.

And so I'm sleeping in until like 11 or whatever as I usually do. The window cleaners are here. My mom is telling me that my dad, since he's about like timing and rules and all this stuff, starting to get anxious because we need to move stuff away from the windows so that they could clean it. Okay. Just being nice to them. They were going to probably move things anyways, but he wanted to make sure that everything was out of the way for them. So he was getting anxious about that. And he was putting that anxiety on her because she tends to be receptive to other people's feelings and he tends to put his feelings onto other people. Okay. And so she was getting anxiety from him. So she came into

my room to wake me up to move some stuff around to get me to help and then she went to tell my brother who didn't know and as an autistic person that's going to upset him and so she started moving things in his room he started freaking out and then he started them out them which eventually later in the day resulted him screaming fuck you to the painters and my parents were worried that he was actually going to go out and push one of them off the ladder or something because like he was doing crazy um And in all of this, my dad was, again, trying to enforce rules on him. So we have this screaming, one-year-old 300-pound guy who has autism. You have my dad trying to say, you can't do that.

You just need to calm down and let them clean your windows. You have my mom in the middle, like, freaking out, not knowing to do, trying to get everyone to calm down. And then you have me downstairs in the basement playing video games trying to shut out all the noise. and so she was conveying all of this to me from her perspective and that was like a lot of what she was talking about and then she started laying more of her other stuff problems on about how like her parents were coming over the next day and her parents are alcoholics and she struggles with that

and then we ended up talking sounds like she depends on you for a lot I don't know because this was like she doesn't usually talk to me about these kind of things i see this this was like the first time that i had had any sort of conversation like this with her and since i had depression like she came out to visit me while i was in buta and that was the last time we had a conversation like this so actually then then i would i mean do you think she'd hmm okay so that's not a regular occurrence so it sounds like she doesn't depend on you much i don't think

she does. Well, I mean, it's kind of weird, right? Because we talk to each other very familiarly, and we will have a conversation where we try not to like let my dad or my brother over here. I don't have those kind of conversations with my dad or my brother. I only have those conversations with my mom. Just like the very close interpersonal stuff. So, so what makes a degree? Huh? To a degree, I think she kind of does depend on me for that connection. But I, I wouldn't say that she depends on like spilling everything. Sure. It's really true.

So it sounds like you guys are just like just close family. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and what makes it hard for you to have those kinds of conversations with your dad? He is like virtually impossible to talk to about any of that. Because again, type, like very hyper type A personality, but he's an engineer to his core. Um, so feelings do not. not compute, right?

Okay. And part of what came up in this conversation with my mom is she was talking about how he's sort of always been this way. He was raised this way. I don't know. I actually know very little about him or what happened in his childhood, but the way that she conveyed to me is that his family was like this. They weren't very connected to each other.

It was a difficult household. And then, I mean, once he hit college, he joined R.O. TC. So he was military for like 30 years, which again instills this like you follow the rules of the leader. You don't disobey who's in command. And now he's in command. And so he's very much in this way of, yeah. Would you say that your dad is oppressive? In ways, yeah. It's that's really hard to say because it's very complicated, right? But sure. I'm just asking if that's how it feels. And what I'm basically getting is not really. Yes and no. Again, it's hard to say how it feels.

Because I guess I'll give you an example. So last night, I was scrolling through Discord and saw somebody type the command for when does the live stream go up? And it was midnight. And I saw 11 hours. And I thought, I thought it was at 1 o'clock. And then I realized, no, I got the time conversion wrong. It was at 11 o'clock. And so I had to go into my parents' room to tell them, because they were trying to go to sleep, that I messed it up.

and it was actually at the wrong time. And I felt anxious about having to explain that to my dad. I felt like he was either going to be upset or he was going to try to cancel or something not at all what happened. He took it totally fine and everything was okay. But I felt like that. So if that helps communicate to you how I feel around him in any way. I mean, that scenario sounds to me like it's almost like the same way that you interact with

your brother, which is like, like you. you've learned the lesson that telling your dad that things are changing leads to madness. Yeah. So I think oppressive isn't the right word. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like you're playing with fire. Sorry, what? It feels to me like you're playing with fire.

You know, like you don't know when it's going to blow. The way my mom has described it is like walking on eggshells. Your dad gets angry? Yes. What does he do when he gets angry? He does this like very cold, not talk to anybody. He has just like angry look at his face and he just like does whatever he does.

And he's usually like kind of so aggressive with it. So like if he's eating food, he will like aggressively cut with the knife or whatever. And then if anybody like talks too loudly or addresses him incorrectly, then he will like instead of responding, I don't know, and a nice way he responds in an angry way, whether that's like very agitated or yelling or anything like that. Yeah. What's it like to live with someone like that?

Yeah, it is really hard, dude. For a while, it was like every other day when we would eat dinner, my brother would say something or have a pattern or something. My dad would get mad at him. He would get mad at my dad. And then they would yell at each other. And I'm just trying to sit there and eat food. Like,

do you know. Zach, do you think of yourself as resilient? No. Okay. I understand that. That makes perfect sense to me. And yet, I'm going to ask you, how would you describe someone who sits there and tries to eat their food

is on a daily basis. Two members of their family are constantly exploding at each other. You're probably resilient, right? It's weird, right? It's fucking weird. I'm with you, man. And okay. Yeah, that sounds, that sounds like,

really hard is like the understatement of the year. Honestly, it feels to me, I would feel like it would be impossible for me to do what you do. Like, it feels impossible to me. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of hard because I don't know what to do, right? Like, if I don't, like, okay, if I don't want to do it, if I don't want to be resilient,

well, what do I do? Like, I don't really have any option. So I'm kind of halfway with it. Yep. Yeah, I can kind of see where you're coming from. Yeah, like, I don't know what you, like, it sounds like an impossible situation. Feels like an impossible situation. Yeah.

What do you do about that? I have no fucking idea. Sit downstairs and play video games. That's fun. Right on. That's the right answer. Um, yeah, man. By the way, the examples that you offer are really, really helpful.

Okay, good. Yeah, I think, I think they capture a lot. You know, you're like painting a picture and like sort of a picture is worth a thousand words. So a lot of these dynamics, I think, are very helpful. Do you feel like you've given us kind of like a sufficient picture? Or are there other things that you want to add? There's nothing that I can like specifically. add. I don't think it really encompasses everything, but it would be really hard to it because

it's a whole lot of, you know, more examples of similar situations that I just can't remember. Or like small things here and there that again are just like, it's too difficult to like really explain the whole of it. But that's about as good of the picture as I can give. Okay. Can I try to sum up what I heard and then maybe we can fill in gaps? okay sure um and then maybe we can talk about your dad a little bit more but okay so your parents have two sons you're the older son you're the older son you're i understand that you don't view yourself is very competent but we know that there's there's evidence to the contrary let's put it that way right so like you were in a pretty competitive PhD program

you ended up dropping out slash getting kicked out at a toxic advisor things like that, you thought that your toxic advisor, and for people who, I guess I'm surprised, I remember, but you know, you thought that everything that your advisor was doing to you, I think towards the end you really realized that it's not really your fault, that your advisor was actually pretty bad. But I can imagine that that would be a pretty severe blow to your confidence. So you kind of come home, you have a younger brother who's autistic. It sounds like early on, maybe things were sort of okay, but then as he started to grow and you started to grow,

it became very, very difficult to interact with him. It sounds to me like your parents sort of did the best that they could, but when your dad kind of is in crisis mode, he goes back to what he knows, which is control structure. When there's a problem like you rely on systems, resources and rules to kind of deal with it, there's not a whole lot of fluidity.

So it also sounds like he gets anxious actually pretty easily. And the way that he responds to his own anxiety is control. So when he gets anxious, he tries to control shit. Yes. And it sounds like he also recruits your mom to be one of his tools to leverage control in the household. Yes. And because she is someone. what conflict avoidant, she kind of gives in because she's walking on eggshells and doesn't

want to, you know, doesn't want to step on any eggs and want to end up with yoke on the floor. So everyone sort of listens to your dad because he kind of like, he sort of runs the show as pretty controlling. If you don't listen to your dad, maybe there's not a whole lot of like dialogue. There's not a whole lot of like opinions or like, hey, dad, they can move the stuff themselves. like he's not really in the space to sort of hear that kind of thing. Yeah. And then we kind of come to your, so it sounds like you and your mom are close, right? So you guys can connect with each other because both you all are sort of like talkers or feelers.

And it seems like your dad and your brother have difficulty engaging on that wavelength. Yeah. So I'm not really detecting any amount of kind of like reverse parenting. So sometimes we get into situations where parents become the children and children become the parents. And I'm not getting any of that. So it doesn't sound like your mom leans on you for her emotional needs. It sounds like you guys, like you're an adult and she's an adult and y'all are close family members. You all understand each other.

You all love each other. And you all just have a strong relationship where there's a pretty even flow of communication. Yeah. Then we come to your brother. So your brother is autistic. It's unclear to me exactly where he is in terms of function, but it sounds like he's like kind of functional, but has a lot of difficulty managing his own emotions

and can kind of be okay if he's got a routine. But I'm not hearing that he's like nonverbal or things like that. That like, you know, his emotions escalate pretty easily. He doesn't respond well to routine, but you can communicate with him. he does to a certain degree appreciate communication. Yeah. I mean, we used to joke because when he was first diagnosed,

they said that he would be nonverbal, and now we joke that he's overly verbal. Yeah, that's great. I mean, that's actually a huge, that's a huge win, whether you all realize it or not, which I think it's hard for you guys to realize. But, you know, having an autistic kid who becomes verbal is like, really amazing. And it's a testament to what your family is accomplished, which it may not seem

like that right now. But, you know, I've seen other cases where nonverbal kids end up nonverbal. And that also doesn't mean that their families didn't try hard enough, which is what's really hard about autism. But I think you guys really deserve a pat on the back for, you know, what you'll have done for him. So then the other thing that I'm going to kind of hypothesize a little bit is, you know, it sounds like your brother's autism and your dad's desire for control are sort of like oil and water. Like, that just sounds bad. Yeah.

I sort of liken it to two autistic people with very different patterns trying to mesh those patterns together. Like, that just will not happen at all. So tell me a little bit about, you know, how they don't mesh or, why they don't mesh. And I'm guessing, I can phrase the question slightly differently. What's the cycle? Because it sounds like there's a cycle in there. But tell me about their interactions. So my brother has like eight billion different little patterns he goes through on regular basis. And my dad will come up with something, whether it's dinner time or

we go somewhere or there's work that needs to be done or someone's coming to fix a house in some way, whatever. Something needs to happen. And then that does not agree with the pattern of my brother. So, like, often what happens is my dad will get frustrated that it's dinner time, but my brother has to go walk the dog right now because that's his pattern. And so there's conflict there. And so my dad will say, like, well, why didn't you do it earlier or why don't you do it after? And my brother would say, because I want to do it now. And then my dad will, either roll his eyes and go and then be like whatever

or he'll fight with him and he'll say like no you have to do X now you need to do it now this needs to happen and then my brother will yell and scream and then start fighting and then at that point communication breaks down and it's just arguing people not even like aiming at each other

it's just like crazy yeah so the cycle is like my brother is always in his constant state of like existing in his patterns and if my dad has something that needs to happen. They both have this thing that needs to happen, but they can't happen together. Like, they just can't to exist. And so then disagreement comes from there.

Okay. And so, would it be fair for me to assume that the more conflict arises, the more your dad doubles down on control? Yeah. And the more he doubles down on control, the more conflict arises. Yes. So if your dad, your dad sometimes gives up and accepts defeat. Does your brother do that? Does your dad ever win?

No. No, he doesn't. Okay. Okay. So, I mean, do you feel like we have a pretty good picture of what these dynamics are like? Yeah. When you were laying it out, I felt like it was better than the way I tried to lay it out. Like, you really hit the nail like that. Nope, buddy, you laid it out. I'm just telling you what I heard. Okay. I think you, like I said, you gave a lot of very, very illustrated, illustrative actual examples that captured a lot of that essence very well. So what, help me understand a little bit about like, you know, why are we here today?

So like, what's the goal of like having you and your dad come on? Because I'm not hearing any communication issues between you and your dad. Yeah. I'm not fully sure, to be honest. So when my mom came in and had this conversation with me, that's when I remembered that you guys were looking for families to come on. And that's when I message French, hey, I got a family that needs to come on.

Okay. And after going back and forth, he said that you wanted to have only like two people come on to more direct. And let's have you and your dad come on. I was like, all right, cool. Okay. So what do you, what would you like to change about your family dynamic? That's a good question. I mean, there's a couple things.

For one, I would like my parents to have a better understanding of my brother and to be, how do I put this? I want them to be less likely to conflict with them, right? Like this whole thing with my dad doubling down of control and him getting more angry and my dad doubling down again and then him getting more angry. Like that's obvious to me. I want that to be obvious to him so that he doesn't do that anymore. A is for me because I can't have a constant yelling in my life. B for my mom because she also needs peace.

C for my brother so that he doesn't have this constant complex and D for my dad. Because I mean, like I said, my dad was raised in this very like rules way. I don't think that's good for him or for anybody in the family. Okay. And I think that's actually, I think that'd be such a, to somehow find a way to slowly break him out of that because that would solve so many different things. Break him out of what?

This, this rules-based, very strict style that he has always been. Okay. So what we want to do is change in as a human. being. Well, yeah, I I'm kind of like. No, no, but hey, I asked you, I asked you,

what do you want to change? That's cool. Because it's really, like I said, I have no connection with my dad whatsoever. I don't know if I've ever really, like,

wanted one because I have never really, like, experienced that in any way. We just have never connected with each other really hardly at all. Whereas I have been able to connect and to be pretty friendly with my mom. And I like that connection. So if there were some way to have that with my dad,

I don't know if that's practical or possible. If that's even something that I really want, but... Okay. Has your dad ever seen a therapist? No. Nope. He's always looked at it as psychological mumbo-jumbo. Ignore that crap. It was hard to get him into this.

Well, hey, so, like, strong work with getting him here, right? Like, that's... He deserves some props for showing up. Yeah. Oh, I forgot to mention it when I was talking to my mom in here. She had mentioned to me that she brought up family counseling with my dad, and it was the first time that he had agreed that this is maybe something we should do. So he's like kind of starting to go a little bit in that direction. Okay.

Any questions for me, Zach? I don't know. I don't have anything coming to mind right now. I mean, I feel like we got to talk to your dad, bro. Yeah. Like, I think you've laid out a pretty good picture. Thankfully, since we've talked before, I know a little bit about you. Uh-oh.

Are we lagging? Okay. But I think a lot of this has to come from your dad's perspective, and then we'll get both you all in together. Does that sound good to you? Yeah. Let's swap and no watching, okay? Okay.

I'm going to find them. All right. All right, Twitch, how do you guys, is this sound like a good use of our time on stream? Hey, Dr. Day. Hey, Dave. How are you? Good, are you?

I'm doing well, man. How do you feel about doing this? I've never done it before. A little uncomfortable. Just a little? Okay, quite a bit. I can imagine, right? Let's just call it what it is, you know?

Yeah, I won't hide it. Yeah. You know, I've had experiences and standing up and briefing small and large groups of people. So it's kind of in the same realm. I haven't done that for a long time. but it's one of those things. The more you do it, the more you become comfortable with it, particularly if you fully understand the subject matter.

And here, I don't, because I don't know where you're coming from. Sure. So maybe I can help you there. Would you like to hear where I'm coming from? Sure. Okay. So I'm going to kind of zoom out a little bit, okay, and tell you a little bit about what we do here.

So we tend to just talk to people on the internet because it's been my experience that like people share a lot of the same challenges in life and that by talking to one person like I basically have the same conversations with a lot of different people. And so what we do here is we have conversations with people that other people watch because I can imagine that you have or y'all's family has some amount of conflict or maybe some kind of difficulty communicating. And that is also true of every other family in the history of human existence. And so the reason that we're here today is to see if there's something we can help

you guys do to maybe communicate a little bit better, maybe to be, to understand each other a little bit better, understand how the dynamics of the family unit works. Right? So like it's a big, I have a big belief that in order to change something, you have to understand how it works. So what we're really here to do today is to try to understand a little bit about what's going on in you, in your family, and in the interface between those two things. How does that sound? Sounds good. So can you tell me a little bit about, so Zach had mentioned that there's been like,

you know, tensions have been running high in the house recently. Would you agree with that? Yes. Can you help me understand a little bit about what your perception of that is? part of it I'll say there's been a change in the family dynamics in the recent months partially due to COVID. Absolutely. In the fact that in a normal day pre-COVID, I was at work. My wife works from home. And our son was in school.

And he would normally get home about 2.30. Since COVID, I'm working from home for the past four months. Our other child, the one that Zach had mentioned, was autistic. He's home now full-time. And Zach's been home full-time. So everybody's home 24-7, and it's been a drastic change for the autistic son. and that his normal daily routine has been disturbed and he's trying to find himself with new routines. And he really, he's a little unique autistic kid in the way that he is social, where most are not social.

And he misses that social inaction that he gets riding the bus and with his teachers and peers in his school. He's in a transition program. He graduated from high school, but they hold the diploma until he completes a two-year transition program to help set him up for employment or some other opportunity. So our district offers that, and it's a real good program. So he will come to the end of that program here in December. But in any case, his normal routine and social interaction has not been happening the last four months. And so that's caused a drastic behavior. change in him. Okay. That's added added stress. Yeah, so I was just going to say that sounds like a

pretty hefty stressor on the system of your family. Yes. How does that stress manifest? With the autistic center, his name is Carson. He has had more meltdowns, become more difficult to manage his behavior. He's very obsessed with patterns. And if he can't do his patterns the way he wants to for various reasons, whether the weather interferes with him going outside and walking the dog or some other interference as a result of family activities, perhaps, he'll have a meltdown and that disturbs the family. It can evolve into shouting and yelling. And it takes us 30 to 40 to 4.4. 40 minutes to calm him down to where you can reason through the situation at hand.

Okay. So tell me what a meltdown. You kind of mentioned this a little bit. When you say he has more meltdowns, like tell us, tell me or us what a meltdown looks like. He becomes uncontrollable verbally and emotionally he'll start yelling. He will make statements that are unclear and don't make any sense and he can become very physical and he is 6.3.240 so he's bigger than mom and dad. So that becomes a turn. And so the key here is de-escalation and to talk him down and to get him calm that you can reason through the situation. And it can be very, very challenging and draining for both mom and dad and obviously Zach as well too. How do you de-escalate him?

Talking. Continually talking and talk him down. Help me understand what that looked like. Patience, we have to stay calm even though we may be exhausted and stressed. Sounds like it's an exhausting situation. It is. mentally, and it can't be physically because this can happen late at night. When we're ready to go to bed, he can have a meltdown at 1130 at night and they'll take us, you know, an hour and a half to get him

situated and ready for bed, for example. And it's being patient and us remaining calm and talking him down from the situation and trying to reason through it. What are the words that you use to talk him down or reason through the situation. Can you give us an example? One is breathing. Get him to take deep breaths and try to calm himself down physically and then eventually mentally as well so he can think rationally. And you know the adrenaline kicks in and he can get spun up physically and mentally pretty rapid. And what do you say? What is going to say?

The other thing is that we have, he has counselors and therapists. We're wanting to get family training to know how to work with him and understand what his triggers are. That sounds like a great idea. So what do you say when he gets wound up? whatever the situation is, is to talk through that situation and very elementary terms

and let him try to understand there's not any consequence in not doing one of his patterns. And for example, it may be he has patterns that he does during the day and it delays him to take the dog out for a walk. That's one of his things he loves to do. It's one of his pattern. And if the weather rolls in and it starts raining, then he's in conflict that he can't do his pattern. He wants to do it, but he can't because it's raining. And so he's in a do loop and he can't get out of it. And so we try to come up with alternatives to say, let's wait till the rain passes or two tomorrow,

knowing that a storm is coming in the afternoon, let's change your pattern and walk the dog in the morning. And so we try to reason through alternatives to permit him to complete his pattern. Okay. Okay. And and how does it how do you manage all of this stress or yeah how do you manage that? I mean it sounds so sort of decompress. I mean just sure decompress but also like how do you manage things in the moment? You know, how do you feel when it's 11.30 at night and that scenario is very difficult at night because I get it, you know, about 9 o'clock, I'm starting to get tired. And if we're watching something on TV and he starts to have a meltdown, you know,

at 10, 11 o'clock at night, you have to regain your composure. What does that mean? regain your composure? What is what is losing composure look and feel? Well, regaining, should say, regain some strength, you get some endurance that you may be out of gas by the end of the day, but

need to dig deep and get the strength to get you through the period it takes to calm him down from a potential meltdown. Okay. What happens if you dig

deep and there's nothing there? Nothing left. Then at some point I've lost it. And so was my wife. And there's a threshold that we all have. Absolutely. And we've learned that both parents, one parent and Carson, shouting and yelling and getting into an escalation is of no value to anybody.

We've learned that. So again, the key is. is you've got to gain composure, get your mind together and realize we've got to de-escalate and think through quickly how you can provide alternatives and rationalize with him to calm them down. Can I think for a second, Dave? Sure. It's going to take me a minute, okay? Sure. I'm just going to, I'm trying to process everything that you've said, really kind of pay attention

to it, really try to understand, you know, the inputs that you're offering. us and integrating it a little bit with some of what your son has said. So the first thing that I want to point out is that a lot of what you're saying, like you use a lot of language of necessity. So you say you got to, you need to, you have to, you got to dig deep, you got to find strength. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I know this may sound kind of weird, but like what needs to be done,

is quite different from how it feels in the moment. Right? It's sort of like looking forward. Does that make sense? The end state? Yes. So you're focusing on the end state. You're focusing on the goal. Right. Do you think there's value to focusing on things besides the goal, like how you feel in the moment? Sure. What's the value in that? Short-term results. What does that mean? small steps to get to your goal. Take one step at a time. And it could be calm yourself down first before you can help someone else. Okay.

So it seems like the value of like your emotions, understanding your emotions is so that you can master them so that you can get to your end goal. Yes. So the only value that I'm really hearing from you about understanding, let's say, the way that you feel in the moment is because that's going to help you get to your end goal. Is that fair? Yeah. Okay. So I don't know how exactly to explain this. So I'm going to think about it for a little while and I'm going to ask you some more questions. But in my experience, there's value to knowing what you feel independent of it getting you to your goal. What do you think about that? Yeah. That how you feel in what how you feel in the most, moment is important. And that can influence, I guess, the outcome. Sure. Your goal. So what I'm

wondering is, is there importance if it doesn't influence your outcome? No, I don't have a thought about that. What do you think? So explain that a little bit more. Let me think about that. Yeah. Let me just try to come up with an example. So I'm going to use a slightly dire example. So, and maybe there's, I'm sure there's an outcome somewhere here. So let's say that I have someone who has cancer and that the cancer is terminal. Like, understanding that the cancer is terminal changes nothing about the fact that the person is going to die. And yet, just understanding that you have terminal cancer can change something within you. Like, it has value, right?

And so you could say that there's an outcome there. too, which is that you spend the rest of your life in a slightly different way. So I'm sort of always seeing an outcome, but oddly enough, as someone who's worked with terminal cancer patients, I've observed that even if it doesn't change something about their life or it doesn't lead to a goal, that understanding how you feel and understanding what the situation is in and of itself has value. Does that make sense? Yes. That's your question. That's Here you go. So another example is like when I think about a flower, like, and I look at a flower and I think,

oh, that flower is beautiful. There's no goal there. There's no like, there's no outcome. And understanding that I appreciate flowers and like just watching a flower and appreciating it for what it is can have value, but there's not really a goal. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's what you're saying. And so when you say you see what I'm saying, what do you think I'm saying?

What do you see? Because I don't even know what I'm saying. So help us out. Not everything has to contribute to a goal. And you can enjoy the moment for whatever value it provides you. Okay. If it's entertainment, fulfillment, happiness. Sure.

So that's a really great way to put it, Dave. So let me ask you actually another question. It sounds like appreciating the moment without a goal is important if it has a positive direction. So happiness, joy, beauty. What about negative things? I guess it would be undesirable unless there is some value in it. I can't think of an example now. Okay.

A negative outcome in a moment like that would have value accepted. If it was negative, maybe you learn from it. Sure. Yeah. The learning experience. Yeah. So the best thing that I can kind of think of is in terms of a negative thing is like what I think of is like the grieving process. Right.

So like grieving is sort of this weird thing where sure you can also see outcomes because after grieving you're maybe less sad or no longer sad or something. like that. But I think that there's just value in people like grieving together and just acknowledging that there's been some kind of loss. And sure, that leads to like peace down the road. So you could say that's an outcome. But sitting with grief, I think sometimes is not always a bad thing. What do you think? I agree. Grieving is part of the healing process. Okay. How are you feeling right now, by the way? A little more comfortable than when it started. Okay. Do you feel like we're walking on shaky ice?

No. I'm struggling for the words to try to articulate our son's behavior in answering your question on how we de-escalate. And it's kind of one of those things. It's a little difficult to describe, but it's a tactic or technique in trying to de-escalate, and it's a little difficult to describe.

And it depends on the situation at hand, because his meltdowns quite often aren't consistent. There are different things that would bring on a meltdown. Sometimes they're unpredictable. Sometimes we can predict them. Okay. Okay. That makes sense because it sounds like, you know, you're doing a lot of stuff up here. you're making a lot of calculations and that's like a pretty complex equation and then like words

come out of your mouth but it's hard to really explain to us how that process works right that makes a lot of sense i mean i can imagine it would be hard to to explain and it you know to amplify on that are friends and family who see him occasionally think he's the sweetest kid but they don't know what he's like at home. So how does that feel for them to see him as the sweetest kid, but not know what he's like at home? It's difficult because they don't understand how he could behave and have meltdowns like we describe.

And until they witness it themselves. What's difficult about that? Some people don't believe us. So what is it like to be not believed by some people? What is it like to have them not understand? It is difficult to relate. Okay. So I think, Dave, that there's an emotion there.

Difficult to relate is what we see on the outside, right? That's a result. Like, it's hard for these two people to relate. How do you have a sense of if there's like an emotion that you feel when other people don't understand what you're saying? No. It's just it's just one of those things you can try to articulate it and describe what a meltdown is, what causes it. But until they witness it firsthand, I don't think they have a full understanding of it. Right. So what's it like for you? to talk to someone who doesn't have a full understanding and sort of like thinks that he's just this happy go lucky kid.

It's, it doesn't bother me or it isn't, in difficult at all. It's just you try to articulate it. And if they don't understand or comprehend it, that's okay. It doesn't affect me at all. Sure.

but they don't know what our life is really like at home. So what do you think it's like for a human being to interact with other human beings who don't know what their life is like? Misunderstanding. Don't understand what makes them tick. So I'm going to toss out a word, which is what I'm digging for, okay? But I think that this is a vocabulary that you may be unfamiliar. familiar with. We're playing with a system that you may be kind of unfamiliar with.

So when I, when I hear that, what I imagine you may be feeling on some level is actually kind of like isolated. When I think about human connection, I think about people who can relate to each other and relationships are based on like shared experiences. And when I think about someone who doesn't share, like, who has an experience of child rearing and has a son that other people haven't seen what that son is like. I can imagine that it's difficult for y'all to have a shared experience of what it's like, what Carson is like. And when I think about a lack of shared experience, then I think about isolation because shared experience is what connects us. What do you think? Yeah, I see what you're saying.

I guess to expand on that is you're right. We don't have a common experience with other family friends in that relationship of a child with special needs. But yet on the other hand, those family friends that we do have, we do have a lot of other things in common. Sure. And socialize together. Of course. Yeah. Weekend ski trips together, for example.

Carson participates. But on that one realm of special needs here or a child behavior, they can't fully relate to it. And how do you feel if they do understand? If they see it? It's a good feeling that there is a common understanding and they can appreciate what we go through. Yeah. What is that feeling? Well, it's satisfying, comforting. Yeah. I see you smiling a little bit. Yeah.

Do you know what you're feeling right now? Like as we started talking about it, I noticed that that feeling almost came up for you. Yeah, it's trying to get to describing where you're leading me to, trying to help find the words to describe it. Yeah. So what do you feel? Do you know?

it's the understanding and the relationship between people. Yeah. So can I toss out a word? Sure. Connected. Right. You feel connected? And how does it feel like that feels good, right?

So what I'm hearing from you, it's strange, right? Because you would think for a moment, let's be non-judgmental. Okay, Dave. So you would think for a moment that your family friends seeing one of Carson's meltdowns would be like a bad thing. on paper it looks like a bad thing and in a sense it is a bad thing but I think there's something really important here

which is that I get the sense that you and your family are sort of like fighting this like very isolated war and every day is a struggle and Carson's fighting with you guys too like I don't think he's the enemy I think he's on your team

and what you guys are fighting against is Carson's autism and COVID And I think your brother, I mean, your son put it beautifully that he kind of thinks about Carson as a normal person who's trapped in an autistic mind. What do you think about that? I agree. And sometimes it can feel very, very tiring and exhausting and stressful to fight what I imagine may sometimes feel like you to be an endless battle. Like, do you think this is a battle that you got a war that you guys win?

No. I don't look at it in that realm. It is something we have to learn about him because we can't fix him. Yep. We have to understand him and connect with him and the way his mind processes and how. how he deals with his frustrations and challenges and communications with us. And it's a daily challenge and a daily lesson learned. And it's trying.

But that's the way my wife and I are is we face challenges and we. I see that. And keep jogging away a day at a time. Yeah, you know, Zach mentioned something else to me, which is that Carson, when he was first diagnosed with autism, you guys had been sort of given the diagnosis that he's going to be nonverbal. Right. And that he's apparently overly verbal now, which I think is actually like a huge testament to the attitude that you and your wife take, which is that, you know, you face challenges head on. And I'm telling you, I've seen nonverbally diagnosed autistic people who end up nonverbal. And I've also seen families who do heroic things and defy all the odds.

And I've also seen families who do heroic things and the odds don't get defied. Right. We've been fortunate. And I do give credit to my wife because she has endured. it more than me because I've been at work, you know, eight, ten hours a day and she's been home raising him. But we have treated him like a normal kid with no disability and inclusion is very important. And I think because of that, we've had the successes we've had. Yeah. How do you feel talking about this stuff? It's great to talk about it. It's a great feeling. The

even though we have the daily challenges, we have to reflect back on the progress that we've made and how far he's come. And that, for example, like you mentioned, he's nonverbal and he's using sign language. We've taught sign language to him when he was three years old. And wow. Here he is now fully verbal. He's graduated from high school. And we've made great progress. He plays the piano.

He's an awesome skier. We're a coach in Special Olympics. And so he's made great progress physically, emotionally, and intellectually as well. But a lot of credit goes to my wife because she helped him get through high school by tutoring at home and building study sheets for him on the various subject matters that he was taken in high school. And it's been a team effort. a lot of investment and we're reaping some of those rewards but we still have a long ways to go though independence independence is where we're striving for that he can live on his own and hold a hold down a job and be able to interact socially yeah we got a ways to go but that's that's

come at a sacrifice too with uh i think was what have you sacrificed uh i think was that was that i think was it's sacrificed time with him because of the interruptions and disturbances due to Carson's behavior and the challenges with him and certainly other sacrifices in the family as well. But, you know, we're dealt their deck of cards and we play our hand. And except we look back and look at the great progress he's made, but it's been a lot of work getting there. Not complaining. Would it be okay if you did?

I think it'd be selfish. You know, this is our family. What's selfish about complaining? Well, complaining that my life, pity on me because of my family life with an autistic son. But there's other great rewards that others don't experience. And that's seeing a child that's disabled, grow, become mature, and striving towards independence and seeing the progress, there's great rewards and satisfaction in that. Okay. So Dave, I'm going to toss something out for you to think about, okay? I understand where you're coming from in terms of not complaining and, you know, not throwing yourself a pity party.

And at the same time, I think we're running up against some lost value. And there's a difference between accepting that you have some negative emotion and throwing yourself a pity party. because as bizarre as the sounds, I think that you are entitled, if you feel like it, to complain. What do you think about that? I can understand that. And I'll be honest, my wife and I have complained to each other. Good. And it's good and healthy to talk about that.

And myself, I'm more independent. prefer to do my own problem solving and resolve things myself and not have to rely on others. Where did you learn that? Good question. I don't know if it, I think it's just I'm wired that way. How do people get wired? DNA genetics, probably from my parents. Can you tell us there?

My wife and I, again, were kind of wired in the same fashion. is we hunker down and get her done. And yeah, we can talk about it ourselves, console each other. And if you want to say complain, but yet we look back and we see how grateful we are and the gratitude and how rewarding has been working with our son, but yet it's been very difficult at the same time.

Yeah. I think that complain is a tricky word because it implies, I can't imagine complaining and gratitude coexisting. But the way that you're kind of talking about it, I do think that there's been sorrow and joy, triumph and failure. You know, when I really hear about it, I think that there's been negative and positive. And I do, I would encourage you to, you know, I'm actually having. happy that you complain to your wife.

I think that's healthy for you. I think it's healthy to acknowledge that things are hard for us sometimes and it doesn't make us weak. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. It's healthy. It's consoling, it's therapeutic. Even talk with friends.

We've talked with friends before to you that they do understand Carson and they sympathize what this encourage us and then they're also. very very encouraging as well so can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing sure i uh grew up in southern california was uh involved in high school sports and in band uh went to college in southern California and then I was on a ROTC scholarship. Wow. And graduated from college and I went right into the Air Force. It was commissioned, went in the Air Force.

I had a variety of space operations, jobs, and system acquisition for space systems. And then spent 27 years in the Air Force retired 13 years ago. Been working for a defense contractor ever since. married my wife when I was a little more senior or 36 years old. And she had one son from a prior marriage. And then we had Zach and Carson. And we've been married 27 years. Wow.

So can I ask you a couple of questions? They may be a little bit personal. You're allowed to not answer them. Sure. I appreciate the hesitation with your answer. are there. But so let me ask you something like, you know, what about her? What like so I think about a 36 year old guy who's unmarried. And so I sometimes think that it takes a special kind of woman to, you know, get you to settle down. Can you tell us a little bit about what your experience with meeting your wife was like and how you guys decided to get married? Sure. You're right. She's a special woman. I'm married up. And we had, I think, a lot in common in the career field we were in. I was in the Air Force.

She was a civilian defense contract or excuse me, a defense employee. We had the same ambitions for us family, same likes and dislikes in the way of hobbies and sports. And we kind of had the same drive to. I think we're kind of wired similar, as I mentioned before, we face challenges head on, and we like working challenges and being fulfilled with success and the outcome of challenges. And we had just a lot in common and we can communicate. We could talk. She was my best friend then or she still is.

You say you're wired similarly. you mean like in what way what about y'all is similar in terms of your wiring our drive follow through to completion i'll say service serving others so that they are satisfied which is sometimes challenging obviously but concerned about always meeting the needs needs of others in our careers, even what she does now. She's an interior designer and always wanting to satisfy the customer, the client. Sounds like she really puts other people ahead of herself. Yes, definitely.

You sound like you value her a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like I said, she's, she's my best friend. So I can lead on her with. anything. Does she lean on you? Yes. In what ways? Emotionally and she can come talk to me. Physically, she's out helping me with projects working on the house. Essentially, any other project, we do things together and we're a good team. And she has talents like in communication. She's better at communicating than I am. I'm an engineer. Engineers typically don't know how to

communicate very well, and I'm a good example of that. And she's very complimentary in that realm. If I have to write something or have to articulate something, she's very good at helping and crafting the right choices of words. You know, oddly enough, Dave, I don't know that I would agree with you that engineers are not good at communicating, nor would I call you a not good communicator. Can I tell you what I see? Sure. I don't see a problem with communication.

I see a lack of vocabulary. Fair? Fair assessment. I don't think it's an issue of talent. I think it's an issue of experience. You know, I think if we gave you the words, you'd be able to use them very, very well. I think you're just somewhat unfamiliar with the words,

because I think you're somewhat unfamiliar with your internal environment, which is a little bit judgmental to say. But I'm just, you know, you've been very authentic with me, and I hope it's okay that I be transparent with you. And I'll explain what I mean by that. What do you think about that? You're right. English and communication has not been my strong suit,

nor big interest when it came to academics or school. And it has been one of the weeks. weaker talents of mine or skill sets. I preferred more of the math, technical side. Sure. That's what I enjoy. Never have been one that really enjoys writing, novels, or stories or anything like that. So my wife is a little more talented in that realm, and then so we balance each other out. Yeah. So if I can offer something kind of relating to that. So I think it's interesting because understanding the self, in the West has become related to like poetry, right?

It's like understanding the self and understanding emotions is like therapy and poetry. And it's all these like nebulous like not really based in any real system kind of things. Does that make sense? I mean, I say this as a psychiatrist. Like I've just noticed this. So there's an interesting study that was done that if you look at couples counseling, men actually are reluctant to engage in couples counseling because they feel disadvantaged

because it's a territory that they don't know how to play that game. What do you think about that? I don't know. I hadn't thought of that before. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Didn't know of a study like that. Yeah. Would you feel uncomfortable

doing something like family counseling or couples counseling? No. No. Why not? Because there's value in it in making the family life better. Okay. So I completely agree that you would be willing to do it and that you would be gung-ho. What I'm asking you is, would you feel uncomfortable? Sure. Right? So like this is, I think, something, Dave, that I would really encourage you to tunnel down.

because I notice that you can feel a particular way, and you're very good at actually mastering your feelings, but just because you can control your discomfort or compensate for it doesn't mean that the discomfort isn't there. Does that make sense? Yeah. Do you think there's value in understanding that the discomfort is there and where it comes from?

Yes. Why? In order to, you have to understand the root of the discomfort before you can do any sort of correction. Okay. So can we play with live ammo with that principle? Can I ask you a question that may be a little bit evoke some emotion? Sure.

Are you feeling uncomfortable already? Is I teed up? I wonder what the question's going to be. I know, right? So we're already playing with live ammo. That was the question. that was it there's another one but

so like when I asked that question now how do you feel pose your eyes what do you feel in your body now that I put you on the spot a little discomfort where you're getting personal

when there's viewers online here so when someone engages you personally what do you feel? Protective And what are you protecting? I guess weaknesses. Okay. And which weaknesses are you protecting?

Particular ones? I think it's that I tend to be more private. So now I'm opening the door and revealing more so of who I am inside versus what is the appearance on the outside. Okay. So we can talk about, that's a topic I think for a different day, about, you know, thinking about, I would encourage you to think about, you know, is it okay for other people to see what's on the inside? Because I imagine that you were taught that the answer to that question is no. I think you have your own independent answers. But I would hypothesize that you were conditioned to not show people. And I would also hypothesize that that has something to do with

the way that your parents were. What do you think about that? I think it's a little both. My parents, I think, were between themselves, were open. Outside of the household, I'll say, not so much. They're more private. Myself, some of that, some of myself is acquired from my upbringing and some of it is on personal experience in that if I have opened up, I've been burned. So again, going back to protection. It's a protection, I guess, on how much you reveal or what you reveal. Okay. And I'll say there's value in doing that personally for me being able to trust someone and to communicate what's going on inside. But then also, I think there's value. If somebody can benefit from that or benefit from my experience, maybe however private it might be, there's value in that to help someone else out.

Sure. So, Dave, I want to maybe ask you just a couple more questions. and then we can get you and Zach on together. Is that okay? Sure. So you mentioned earlier, and I noticed a little bit of negative emotion around this, that you guys have come really a long way with Carson, but that sometimes at the cost of Zach,

you use the word sacrifice. Can you help me understand that a little bit better? When Carson would have his meltdowns when he was young and even now, obviously it's a major distraction and an interruption. And especially if there's already some sort of interaction with Zach and there's a rhythm going. And out of the blue, you get an interruption from Carson. It unfortunately takes time away from Zach. and I think that has been the case with him growing up that Carson is always

been distracted and interfered with the relationship development with Zach. How do you feel about that? How do you feel about that? It's lost time. It's lost time that can never get back. And those younger years that I think of from 4 to 10, somewhere there where they start to become independent, start to develop their own character and who they're going to be. Those are precious years.

They go so stinking fast and can't get back the lost time. And it hurts. What hurts about it? That I think that could have... jeopardize the relationship that we maybe have today. And if he was in need for any kind of emotional support, he couldn't get it because there was a distraction going on with Carson. And there is some guilt there and missed out on that opportunity to really bond

in those early years like that. Because they're precious moments. And you realize that obviously as you get older and you look back, Those are just precious years that you, and you can't get those any other way, only with a parent-child relationship like that. You can't get that kind of fulfillment any other way. And are you talking about fulfillment for you or fulfillment for Zach? Both.

Have you guys ever talked about this? Very lightly that I recall once. Okay. And I think it's possible that either of us really didn't know how to introduce it or how to even start that discussion. Thank you for sharing that. I can see that it was emotional for you. It was emotional for me too. How do you feel about, you know, do you feel okay right now?

Can we keep talking? Sure. I'm good. So how's your relationship with Zach now? Sounds like a good idea. I think I'm in hydrate too. Yeah. Non-combative, not confrontational.

And pretty much we only see each other since COVID that I've been working at home might see him in the morning in the kitchen when I take a break and then see him at dinner. and we converse and talk pretty much whatever's going on in the news and it's very brief and that's it and most of this time is in the basement in his room assuming gaming and that's really the extent of it okay how do you feel about that again it goes back to the relationship I don't think that's healthy. We're both missing out on time. Time is ticking away and it's a valuable opportunity that we're all in the same household.

And he's back from school that we could attempt to bond, establish a friendship and help even as him, part of the team helping with Carson as well. Do you feel like he doesn't help with Carson? He's attempted. He's tried. I think it's a bit difficult for him, I think, emotionally. I think also he may not fully have the tool set, the skill set of how to work with Carson because he has been away at school essentially for five years. Sure. And it's a long time. Yeah. And the only time you saw him is when he came home at, you know, holidays and stuff like that. And so it's very brief. And he may not fully understand how Carson works or how he ticks now. And how do you, how do you help him? And I think one way is try to become a friend with Carson. Try to understand. What's going on in his mind? What his frustrations are.

Sure. So, Dave, I'm going to, we're going to get Zach back in here in a minute because we've been talking for a little while. And I think this kind of stuff can be kind of energy intensive. And I don't know that you've got a whole lot of excess fuel to burn. Oh, I'm good. Okay. But my, you know, is it okay if I share a couple of thoughts with you? Sure.

So the first thing is that I don't. think that like this is about Carson yet. So I know that Carson is a huge part of y'all's life and and you know, dominates a lot of what y'all spend your time working on, thinking on, enjoying. And my first thought is that that at least between you and Zach, the first thing that needs to happen is that like y'all need to form a relationship independent of anyone else in your family. Right? Like if I had to sum it up, you have to make up for lost time. Right. And so what do you think about that? Fully agree.

It's a little difficult right now because we're not communicating to understand where he is right now after returning from school. Obviously, he's funding relief through games. gaming. There's certainly everybody has their own way of dealing with stress and relief. Some, you know, maybe physical exercise or whatever, but that tends to be his relief. And I think we just want to make sure that we don't push him too hard because we don't fully understand what he's going through. emotionally and mentally. And so it's kind of kid gloves and trying to understand, we'd like to understand the emotions,

what he's going through and what he is thinking about for the way ahead. Okay. So, Dave, a couple of thoughts. The first thing is, you know, I want to respect your privacy, especially as you've gotten burned before. So we have a couple of options. One is that we can just get Zach back in here. We can sort of kind of sum up.

It'll be kind of kid gloves. I'll hear a couple of general thoughts. And then leave the two of you to start that discussion or whatever kind of on your own in private. Okay. Upsides of that, it's safe. Downsides of that, you may quickly fall into a pattern.

where it's hard to get over that activation energy of having those kinds of conversations. Option two is that we can think about starting that conversation like now. And problems with that is that sometimes it could get emotional. It could feel voyeuristic because people are watching and I don't want to pressure you into anything that you don't feel comfortable with. Upside is that I think that you've said a couple of things to me. me today, that while they're hot and fresh in your mind would be very valuable for Zach to hear.

So I leave it up to you. We're going to go, you want to have the conversation with him now, or do you want to just have a general kind of sum up? We'd like to get his input. But I think option one, the general sum up, and then he and I embark on private conversation. Okay. Can I share with you one or two things that I think it's important for you to say to him. Sure. At the top of the list is, I think, like you shared about lost time, I think that's something that Zach needs to hear from you. Okay.

Does that make sense to you? Yes. What makes sense about that? He understands where I'm coming from and sort of the reason to try to reestablish that relationship. I think it's even more, it's run simpler than that. I think he needs to understand that the fact that y'all lost time hurts you. What do you think about that? Yes. He needs to understand that. And I think this is the tricky thing, right? It's like, I don't think anyone would say that you did anything wrong. And that's important for you to understand. And that's important for him to understand.

and yet this kind of goes back to like what is the value of negativity if it leads to like you know it's just I think he needs to see that you recognize that y'all were dealt a bad hand because eight year old Zach nine year old Zach and 10 year old Zach

didn't couldn't understand that but now he's a grown he's a grown man and I think that he also feels the lack of y'all's relationship And I think the way to really start bridging that gap is like to talk about what it was like. And I don't know. And here's the other last thing that I'll tell you, Dave, is that I think you do an excellent job of trying to understand everything outside of yourself.

So even when you talk about Zach and you think about your interactions with him, you say, I need to understand him better. The other thing that I would encourage you to do is let other people understand you. You don't always have to be the understander. And let Zach, let him see who you are. Because it seems to me like you've raised two amazing sons. And you can start to lean on them too. I know it sounds weird. But, you know, I think the conversation isn't just about understanding.

him in a weird way, like you almost have to model opening up, because he's more likely to open up if you open up. Yeah, somebody's got to make the first move. Yep. And I don't know. And here's why I think, I don't know that it should be you. But the reason that I am defaulting to you making the first move is because out of all of the conversations I've had with him and you, you're the.

the one who I think has said the words that are the most important to say. And that's why I think you should say them. It's not about first. It's just you have the most important thing to say. Yeah. Thoughts, questions? So the first one you mentioned was lost time. Was there a second? Nope. That I missed. Okay. I mean, I think that's a great place to start, right? And thinking about y'all's relationship and what that kind of looks like and feels like to you guys now. I think the second point for you is that I think understanding what you're feeling and also communicating that to Zach could be healthy for both of you. And I think we'll pave the way for him to do the same.

Third thing is, anyway, the rest we can talk about together. You feel okay grabbing him? Yeah. Okay. We'll get it. Yep. I know everybody wants them to talk on stream. But that's for us, right?

That's not for them. So I don't doubt that that would get clipped and shipped, but that's not what we're here for. All right. All right. Can we get both the... Perfect. Okay.

So, Zach, I talked to your dad for a little bit longer than I talked to you. Did you? I think so. Not sure. I was a big of general. Were you concerned at all about? what we were talking about or were you thinking about it at all?

Well, I was talking to my mom about it, but we ended up getting sidetracked and other discussions. Okay. Zach, do you want to summarize kind of our conversation for your dad, and then we'll have your dad kind of summarize what we talked about? How does that sound start? Sure. So go for it. Oh, I thought you said you're okay. Nope.

I'm going to have you do it. So let me think here. we kind of all live in place we started by talking about the conversation that I had with mom earlier which was like a half a big ago which was about

like the situation with Carson and his autism and how that's affecting us with the family stuff like a lot of time we spent on the situation with the windows cleaners. And so, like, how she conveyed to me her perspective of that situation and what my

perspective of that situation was as well, and how, like, there was a whole bunch of crazy stuff going on, you know, and how Carson was obviously difficult and whatnot, but then also how you play into that and how mom plays into that and how everyone just sort of, like, beats on each other, right? like Carson will have his pattern and then you will have your set rules or whatever that you have to follow and then Mom will try to enforce those but then Carson will fight to get back against that

and then other people will fight each other and that I'm just trying to like sit on the sidelines and not get involved and like hype myself right because I don't want to be part of any of that um what else did we talk about? I can kind of jump in um thanks

Thanks for sharing that, Zach. So a couple of other things, Dave, that we talked about, or a little bit about y'all's interpersonal interactions. And Zach has the impression that you're quite organized and quite structured. And I had actually hypothesized to Zach that maybe if you feel uncomfortable or anxious or stressed, that the way that you manage that stress is by imposing order around you. because that may help you, you know, like the more chaotic things become, the more you kind of double down on imposing order and structure.

We also talked a little bit about y'all's relationship. And Zach mentioned to me that, you know, he feels a little bit closer to your wife and that they're able to talk a little bit more freely. And that he does want to be able to kind of talk to you maybe some, one in the same way. I mean, I think he acknowledges that y'all are different and that you don't have to have the same relationship. But that communicating and better understanding between the two of you is actually really important. We spent a fair amount of time talking about Carson, you know, y'all's family situation, the challenges that y'all face and kind of gave me a lot of background.

I shared a couple of stories. But I think that basically, oh, the other thing, interesting thing, he said is that he actually knows very little about like what your life growing up was like. And he actually doesn't know too much about you. And maybe he was a little bit curious about that. Sometimes it seems like either he or your wife may feel like they're kind of walking on eggshells around you, that they're afraid that they may upset you if they say or do the wrong thing. And I'm just sharing this stuff with you not to kind of put you on the spot or try to get you to defend yourself or anything like that.

I don't think it's like either or I don't think someone is right or someone is wrong. I'm just sharing with you what their, what his perception is and how he feels. Any thoughts, questions, responses? No, I understand. I've heard those comments before. And I do remember Zach one time expressing that he didn't know much about me or my childhood. That's fair.

Yet, on the other hand, for example, I think the time that actually occurred was we were sitting around a campfire. And that would have been an opportune time to ask questions. Try to understand what was your childhood like. what did I do growing up and the fun times, the challenging times, and experiences? Sure, sure. So it's a little bit of both. I didn't divulge to him, nor did he inquire.

Sure. So what I'm hearing from you is that it's a two-way street. Yes. Absolutely. That's fair. Right. Sure. Dave, do you want to sum up or kind of share what we talked about with that? Yeah, it seemed to pretty quickly head down to Carson in the center of the discussion pretty much.

And family dynamics and his impact on the family. how that, I think, impacted our relationship when you were younger. Somewhere around that four to 10-year period where to me, those are very precious years as you start to develop your character and your identity and who you're going to be. And those are very precious years, in my view, of establishing the relationship and bond. bonding. And I sensed that Carson was a distraction during that time where we could not establish that relationship and do things together, do the boy stuff, the manly stuff. And as a result, that's, I think, contributed to sort of the relationship we have the day where it's not as

close as it should be. I saw you reacting. Dave, I thought that was going to be a private conversation. Oh, the details. Okay. So, if that's option, too, if we've already

opened the door, if you want to continue. I mean, I can open any doors, bro. I was... Okay. Oh, you got out. Yep, no, I didn't cut off. I just stopped talking. Oh, yeah. I just could.

Okay. So now I'm a little bit confused because I don't know what to do. So, okay, I guess we're talking about it now. So, Zach, what did you hear from your dad? I've already blinded. Okay. So think for a second. What did he say?

Sorry for derailing both y'all. I was caught off guard. Yeah, now I'm caught off guard. So, like, first of all, two-way street, I remember that. and he said that you guys started talking about Carson. Oh, yeah. How like the early years are important or whatever for like developing your identity and stuff, which is actually something that I kind of disagree with.

I think that even still now I'm kind of struggling with my identity and whatnot. And that's something that you go through the whole life. But that's a different conversation. Yeah. Carson, I don't know if he was necessarily a distraction per se. I just think that as a family we struggled to handle him. We didn't know what we were doing. There was no guidebook how to have an autistic child in your family

and not screw up family-week relationships because of it, right? It's going to cause strains, and it's hard to know how to handle that. And so I think that it wasn't, it was just really hard for us all to handle that. We were all spending so much time on him that we couldn't spend time on each other because we didn't know what we were doing. Yep. And then like I now remember when I was talking about, to you how I was saying that it was difficult for me to connect with Carson because I mean again

I didn't know what I was doing um I felt like I was just in general being an asshole to him because so Zach I'm going to just interrupt you and I apologize so Dave so I think Zach what did you hear how would you describe what Zach heard um maybe missed the mark that it was lost time yep and he didn't miss the Mark, I think you guys did what y'all do, which is you guys talk about situations, right? So he understood that you were saying that like, you know, there's character development because you don't say you leave out, y'all, y'all eat brisket. Oh, yeah.

So like, you know, when you slice into brisket and that juice is in the middle, and it's like when you get a well-cooked brisket and it falls apart, but it's like moist and juicy, yeah you left out the juice day right you gave him the structure but what you said just now is very different from what you conveyed to me does that make sense to you the words are the same right i guess i misunderstand okay sorry so like you talked about lost time but when we were talking about it What were you feeling when you and I talked about it? It was emotional. Yep.

And when you were telling it to Zach, what were you feeling? It was emotional and not to the extent when I was talking to you. Yep. Right? So like, Zach, did you get any emotion from him when he said that? A little bit at the start, but that was about it. Yep. And I think this is what y'all do, which is normal, by the way, is that like,

you know, you're conveying the words, but I think if you're okay, Dave, I'm going to push you. Is that okay? Because, I mean, you open the door, but we can just stop. Sure. So how do you feel? So first of all, let's be explicit. Like, what does lost time mean to you in relation to Zach? Those are years of childhood that are valuable, as I mentioned.

And you can never get them back. And those years, those precious years of four to ten roughly when you're a child like that. And everything's happy, go lucky. No worries in the world. No stresses or your mind is not polluted yet from the environment. those years of dad and child development can never get those back again. Okay. So you talk about dad and child.

So what I'm hearing you say is that there are times of Zach's life that because of Carson's needs, you were not able to give him what you really wanted to. Yes. is that fair to say yeah and i'll also add in there to that it isn't a blame or all on carson i was still pursuing a career at the same time and very demanding and so again trying to stay balanced personally and with the family was extremely challenging and uh carson was a heavy weight on that scale. And who paid the price of that weight?

We all did. But certainly, Zach, I think, paid a price. Zach, what's it like to hear that? I don't know. It's so weird because, like, I can't remember that much

of that period of my life, right? I've been spending so much of my time recently thinking about, like, recent times and trying to, like, help myself right now with the future and whatnot. So it's like, it's hard to wrap my head around the perspective on this thing. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't really know what I'm doing. I don't know of this one. So I'm going to try to translate for Dave. Okay, Dave. Is that okay? I'm going to take the spotlight off of you. Is that cool? Sure. So, Zach, I think what I understood, and this is the advantage of streaming this to the internet, is now you can go back and watch it.

But I think what I heard from your dad and what I felt very, palpably is that like like we have to be careful because it's not about blame but what I really felt from him was that he actually mourns the lack of time that he's been he mourns the amount of time that he hasn't been able to give you and we're not saying that he acted wrongly we're not saying that he's to blame we're not saying that Carson's to blame it's just the reality of y'all's household and that's what's tough right No one's to blame. And yet he really wishes that he could have had, and I know you don't remember those years,

but I have an almost five-year-old, so I kind of know a little bit about what Dave's talking about. And there is something incredibly precious and valuable about bonding and forming a relationship, and that time just doesn't come back. And what I think what really maybe what Dave is trying to, to say is, you know, just that he feels hurt by not being able to give you in a sense what he feels like you deserve. How's that, Dave? Good summary. Hard for Dave to say. How does it make you feel to hear that from me? Can you try tell, it'll probably be better if you actually, do you feel comfortable saying something like that directly to Zach? Oh, yeah. Sure, I feel

comfortable doing it. Can you all look at each other? Because it's fucking, I feel, I don't know what. It's fucking weird. Apologies for the language. When I was interested in having the family, I was really interested in bonding with the young, innocent child and growing up with that child and doing cool stuff together. And we did have some moments where we, we been camping and fishing and skied like crazy, but there were always distractions. Distractions of Carson is one. And certainly a distraction to the stress on my job and what I was pursuing in a career. And it was a distraction to me mentally.

It didn't allow us, I think, to fully develop a relationship when you're you're younger that could continue on in your adult life. And particularly now, when you, like you mentioned, trying to understand your identity now that I could be there along with Ramo and help you through the trial you're going through now. You can't explain it. You can only experience it, but being a parent, it's a real tough, bad. balancing act when you're trying to be a provider emotionally, financially, and to provide for your family, pursue a career, have time to spend with your wife and spend time with your kids, and yet have some alone time to do things you like to do if you want to go to the gym or go

run or whatever, but try to balance all these demands in life. And then you have a special needs child thrown into the equation makes it even more difficult. There's no manual. There's no training to help young parents manage a family like that. And that's one thing I think lacking in our society and our school system is how do you have a functional family how do you teach kids to raise kids become parents and how to balance their life and be successful at a parent parenting we don't teach that in school and there's no manual that comes with each kid because every kid is unique wired completely different. And we learned by the seat of our pants or by our parents or by our phrase. Zach, what was that like to listen to?

I don't know. It was emotional of parts, right? So your dad did something where he went underwater, felt those emotions, and then suddenly now we're talking about how people need a manual for child raising rearing. Yeah. And so, Dave, I think your mind does something where when you feel emotions, the engineering brain turns on and you start talking about abstract problem solving kinds of things because it's hard for you to just hit the pause button when you're conveying to Zach how you feel, which is okay, right?

So that's a skill that you'll need to learn. It may be sort of an excuse in that I did the best I'd, could. There's no Daniel to tell me, you know, how to raise him or how to spend time with enjoy him. And so it's just trying to articulate that every kid is unique and how you raise them or how you establish relationships is they're all different. Okay. Yeah. I think it's everything you said is spot on, man. Um, Zach, you look like you're kind of processing. Anything that you want to share with your dad? I mean, you don't have to share anything, by the way.

And Dave, you were supposed to have this conversation in private, but I'm sort of glad you had it in public because I don't know if it would have come across the right way. Sure. You don't have to say anything if you want to just process. I mean, the only thought that's coming to mind is that, like, yeah, you generally do not get emotional things. and a lot of like

that's an observation not a blame Dave yeah a lot of communication becomes easier when you're able to convey those things like when I was able to

connect with mom really well when she was able to explain how she felt to me and I think that part of why I've been able to get close to her is more so is because of that right like our relationship has always been about I don't know how to explain it like things right

like it's it's been we're going to go skiing and we're going to go write ATBs or we're going to work on this thing together or teaching it's been so much more like I guess literal I don't know how to explain it or if there's words for that but yeah I understand that emotional connection has never really been there. I'm just sort of like spilling thoughts, right? I'm going anywhere with it.

I'm going to jump in. So Dave, I think you've got to be careful because you can feel blame when he says something like that. Do you feel blame? I'll say yes, but I understand where he's coming from. So this once again is about you can feel blame, but not be at fault. Yeah. Right? That's a big lesson here. Is that what you feel on the inside.

So here's what I'm going to say to y'all. Okay? And now we're going to kind of wrap up. If that's okay with you guys. Any questions? Okay. So the first thing is that Zach, so Dave, when you think about those formative years of four to ten, I think you lucked out. because what Zach is telling you is that his formative years aren't over yet and he still needs your help. So I think sure you missed four to ten, but he's as old as he is now and he's asking for you to help him figure that out.

And he's saying that, you know, it's not too late and that it's important that even if you guys have had trouble, you guys have always focused on things, that like now is your chance. Is that fair, Zach? Yeah. I'll say that's fair. The last thing that I'll just say is COVID is a... Can I... Are you all okay with bad language? I am.

Okay, so then I'll avoid it. Sorry. You know, I grew up in a culture of moral decay, Dave. So my language is loose. But COVID is a mess. and it really puts a lot of pressures on families. And I really hope that, you know, I think family counseling is going to be important for you guys. But the most important thing that I would say is that both of you guys want the same thing,

which is a deeper relationship and a better understanding with each other. And it's going to be hard and it's going to be confusing and all kinds of stuff is going to come up as you guys walk this journey. But as long as you guys walk it together and you all lean on each other, you all are going to be fine. Any last thoughts or questions? I'd say one thing is we need to understand Zach better. Yep. And that's one thing as he matured and entered adulthood, his interests became different than mine. So that was one area where we started to, or he became more isolated, I guess, from the family and his interests were different.

For example, gaming, you know, I've done some Xbox games a few times, big deal. I don't understand his perspective on gaming and the attraction with it and satisfaction, fulfillment with it. And that's just one example of our differences, understanding those and appreciating those and respecting each other with those different interests. But yet, how can we find something in common and have that relationship with those differences? Sure. So I think these are ongoing conversations. And I think at the end of the day, Dave, it's, you know, my first instinct in response to that would be that, you know,

that is important for you to understand gaming. I think that's a really important discussion for actually I think it's the most important discussion for our particular community because parents don't understand. And we don't do a good job as kids explaining it to our parents. And it's a two-way street. Yeah. I would say at the end of the day, though, understanding, I think Zach wants to understand you better as well. And it's not so much about interest and stuff. I think sharing some of what you did today.

and I know Zach has been working through a lot of stuff. And Zach, hopefully, you know, you can, you feel comfortable enough to convey some of the things that you're thinking through with your parents and what your motivations and thoughts are around some of that stuff. But I think just keep communicating and hopefully all will get there. Thoughts on family counseling thing? I think y'all should do family counseling. Okay. I think it's nice to have someone to facilitate communication because it's, hard. Right? Like, it's hard because I think your dad had something really, really important to say,

and it took him a couple of tries to be able to say it in a way that you could hear. So it's not just like he has to say it the right way. It's like about the way that you hear things too. And so sometimes you'll need a little bit of a nudge until you learn how to do it on your own. Sound good? Take care. Thank you. You do. Strong work. really strong work today. Adios. Bye bye. Okay. Damn.