HealthyGamerGG - Helping a Hardcore Video Game Addict

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

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Hi, welcome to your neighborhood pharmacy. Hi, I've got a prescription for diabetes test strips. How much is the copay? Well, it depends on your type of commercial insurance and factoring in your yearly spend, subtracting the deductibles, also depending on your monthly allowance based on... Why can't there be a better option?

Or you could try Contournext test strips. A 35 counts only 1999 over-the-counter and proven to be highly accurate. Go to contournex.com slash radio to see if over-the-counter strips are a more affordable option for you. Hmm, I think I'll try Contour Next. Let's get started. So welcome, Scott. You said it's Scott? Yeah, yeah, Scott's good, yeah. Yeah, so Scott, tell me a little bit about, you know, what's bringing you on stream today and how we can be helpful.

I guess pretty much at a core, it's just video game addiction. Okay. So I play way too many games. Okay. Like upwards of pretty much like 18 to 20 hours a day. I don't get a whole lot of sleep. So a lot of games. Yeah. that's kind of an average.

And it pretty much affects a whole lot of stuff, like friendships, relationships, like outside of games and stuff like that. Sure. And obviously, like ability to get a job. So one of the things like gaming is kind of like a recovery thing for me. Like if I get some bad news, like we'll just go into a big spiral of playing all the games and stuff like that. Okay.

That kind of, kind of shifting away from that and kind of replacing it with something healthier, I guess. Okay. Or just cutting down the numbers a bit. Sure. And can you tell me a little bit about which games you play? A lot of World Warcraft. Like, way too much.

A bit of league as well. And fighting games as well. Like which ones? Smash Tekken, mostly. Okay. And what do you usually do in Wow? At the moment, I play Classic, and I just finished ranking in Classic, if that makes... What's ranking mean?

ranking is pretty much just like a competition of no life like you like one to 14 everyone ranks up you get a certain amount of points every week and if you don't play for a week you lose points so it's like notorious for just being like no life you just have to keep no lifeing oh interesting so it's actually a competition where who can put them much time in it's not skill at all interesting really what do you mean by rank up from one to 14 uh so pretty much like you You get from rank 1 to 14, everyone starts at 1, and then you get put into like a bracket system. So like whoever gets the most honor in a week gets it put into a bracket,

bracket 1, well, technically bracket 14 gives you the most points, and then gradually gets worse. It'll be like seven people and like a large server at bracket one kind of thing. Okay. At the top bracket, they'll get the most points, and then you rank up to 14 to get the best. Rank 14, is that a PVP thing in game, or is that something outside of game? No, no, no, in game.

Rank 14 is like a, you get like a title high warlord or Grand Marshal. Okay. And it gives you the gear, pretty much. Okay, okay. So, but, so, but the rank is determined by the amount of honor and honor can just be grinded, right? Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Like, people bought it, like, all the time. Like, people just live in Altrecht Valley and just AFK all the time.

Okay. It's literally just two plays the most. Okay. And, and is that fun? Oddly enough, yes. But I've kind of got like a, like a ladder addiction. Like, when I seen. my name go up on a ladder, I get happier.

Okay. And when it goes down, I get worse. It was the same in league. Okay. Like, if I saw myself, like, getting lower rank, I wasn't as happy. But if I was going, I was happy. Okay. Just an addiction thing, I guess.

Yeah, let's, I'm kind of curious about that. When you say happy, what does that mean? I guess it's like a progress thing. Like, when you see progress, you get happier. Like, I guess it's kind of the same. If you get a promotion at work, you're happier. You get a promotion in league. I'm happier.

If I go off a rank, I'm happy. And so it sounds like you're able to get a lot of happiness through ranking up. To an extent. And then you realize, like, you're not, this is all, like, just a virtual thing. It's like you don't get any real life benefits from it, I guess. How do you realize that? When does that happen? Pretty much when I talk to the people that I went to school with and they're talking about

things that they've gained IRA, like, you know, like they just bought a new car or that kind of thing. And then how does that make you feel? Um, not the best. Kind of like I'm wasting time, I guess, so. Okay. Um, so you feel like you're wasting time when you're talking to your friends? No, wasting time when I'm playing a whole little while, when I'm not doing something. When do you feel the feeling of wasting time? Um, yeah, I guess that's when I talk to my friends and I realize that if I compare myself to pretty much the average person, they don't have a lot of the life skills that they have or a lot of the experiences in life that they have.

So all my experiences pretty much comes from my games. Okay. Hmm. I'm just thinking a little bit about your brain. Yeah. And the interesting thing is that, you know, if you present your brain with something that makes you feel happy, and then you present it with something that makes you feel bad, your brain is going to gravitate towards the thing that makes you feel happy.

Yeah. Right? We don't walk around punching ourselves in the face because that's painful. And so if I think about it, I would imagine that your brain is actually telling you to play more video games and telling you to talk to your friends less. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much to an extent that's pretty much how it goes. Like I used to play a lot of league when it was like a thing that I could play with my school friends. and then kind of gravitated away from it when Wow came out

and it's less so of like a friend grind and more of like a solo grind like if I can stay up for like 20 hours and just play it all the time then I get the feeling of being happy in the progression aspect in games while not getting reminded of the whole they're progressing in life thing yeah absolutely and that too is kind of tricky because I think sometimes our brain doesn't know the difference between I mean, so the reason that we feel like progressing, so just think about this for a second.

The reason that you feel like progressing, like, how does that work? How do you have any idea how you're, you, like, how do you, how does a human being feel like they're progressing? Like, what's the circuitry or mechanism behind that? Any idea? Um, I guess it's, I really know like the scientific way, obviously, but I mean, I guess it's just like the, the, the, the emotional. value that comes with not being where you previously were, I guess.

But so, you know, being somewhere that you weren't feeling, I don't know, up, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And where do you think this is going to sound like that kind of a silly question?

But where in your body does that sense of progress come from? Like what part of you? Pretty much just the chest. Like, I feel a lot more whole, I guess. It's kind of sad to say, I think, but it's, I feel a lot more accomplished. Just to know that if I walk around, like, the main city, that I'm a higher rank, then pretty much like every player. Yeah. So it just feels better.

Yeah. And so, you know, it's kind of interesting because we think about addiction. And, you know, a lot of times, like, we think about addiction is a bad thing, right? Like, do you think that your addiction to video games is a bad thing? I do Yeah Why? Because there's a lot more

efficient things I could be doing with my life, I guess. Like what? This is a very temporary thing Whereas if I look at like a friend, for example, who's working maybe like 40 hour weeks at like maybe not the best job, but he's getting money and he's gaining life skills. He's updating, like he's getting something that's good for his CV.

Whereas I'm getting titles in a game. and you know why do you say his thing is more efficient than yours because it helps them more in the long run I don't think that my addiction helps me in the long run other than maybe competitiveness

and like a lighter addiction how does your addiction help you does it help you at all um yeah I mean in the in the current time it pretty much helps me with just feeling whole I feel a bit hip happier while playing more I guess.

Yeah, so why do you say that his, I mean, so let me just, let me just think about this for a second. So I could go to a job that I don't like very much for the purpose of getting something on my CV, which also putting together a CV doesn't make you feel whole or accomplished. It's just boring-ass work. Yeah. And then, or I can feel whole and happy and accomplished through playing a video game. Why would I want to do the former instead of the latter? Because I feel like, I don't know, I see a lot of things like a grind.

Like my wild grind and then there's like the IRL ground, kind of like. If you're working like a 9 to 5 job Monday to Friday, you might not be in the happiest state, but it's the fact that you can know that it's maybe leading towards the right thing. Do you know that it's leading towards the right thing? Well, it updates a CV. It gives you maybe a good reference. If you do your best, then it can lead to the right thing if you do it the right thing. if you do it the right way.

Obviously, if I'm doing a job that I'm absolutely depressed during and I have really bad work ethic, then it might not be a good thing. Do you have a job? But I don't. Why do you think that is? Because if I get rejection, I pretty much fall back to Wow, or I fall back to games. And the fear of rejection pretty much stops me from putting my CV out there and that kind of thing. and it just keeps me playing well.

What do you mean by rejection? Say if I go to a job interview, I think I did okay. And then I don't hear back anything at all. Then it's like you get that kind of sinking feeling that you thought you were doing well, but you're not. And then it's the kind of just like the kick back into the middle of the hole. Like you climb your way out to actually stomach it to actually go to the interview with like a pretty bad social anxiety. So stomach it to actually get out of my house and go to the interview, do the interview, and then not getting a reply or anything like that. It's kind of just like a kick in the face back to the whole, back to 20 hours a while a day.

Yeah, absolutely, man. So this is why I was kind of confused because you say like, you know, getting a job and working on your CV, you know it leads to something. But what I'm hearing from you is actually quite the opposite. it. I think what I'm hearing from you is that like trying to do something in the real world, actually you know it's going to kick you back in the hole. Like that's what you know. The thing is, I feel like if I put more into it, it might not kick me back in the hole. If I was able to... Really? I mean...

It sounds like you put a lot into it. It sounds like you really have a lot, like you have these feelings of rejection and fear of rejection. Sounds like you kind of feel socially, anxious and it actually you're you're putting a lot into it every time you go out for a job interview I feel that's the thing that I feel like I could be doing it more like that's that's where I think the addiction comes into place because I know that I could be doing it more but it's just the constant you know you could be doing what more putting more effort into finding a job or putting more if into that kind of thing I mean I think that makes sense theoretically but what I'm hearing from you is like let's just think about this for a second let's think about your brain right yeah so like

your brain you like overcome a lot of these like social anxieties and fears of rejection and then you go out into the world and you apply for a job and what happens? Don't get anything. Like no response. So the next time you apply for a job, so you've been rejected one more time, right? So what happens to the fear of your rejection every time you get rejected? Theoretically, I guess it would get, it feels like the social anxiety and things like that get easier, but I don't know.

No, no, forget about theoretically. Let's talk about you. What happens to your fear of rejection every time you get rejected? Giff Lodgea. Absolutely, right? So let's think about this. Because I don't think it gets easier. I think let's trust you.

Let's forget about theory, okay? Because theory leads us to stupid answers. Let's trust you. So like, if I get on a horse and I start riding the horse and the horse throws me off and I break an arm. And then I get back on the horse. the horse again, and then I go riding again, it throws me off and I break a leg. Like, what happens to my fear of the horse every time the horse tosses me off? It's going to go worse.

Absolutely, right? And that's what it feels like. It doesn't get easier. It actually gets harder. Every time you get rejected, the sense of rejection grows. And so what is your brain going to do if you're getting rejected over and over again and feeling bad about yourself? Shut down and give into habits. not give in to habits. Very important, Scott, I want you to realize this. It's not giving in to anything.

It's actually learning. Okay. Right? Giving in presumes that like you're, like it's failing. Does that make sense? Giving in sounds like a failure. Yeah. But you're not actually failing.

Your brain is actually trying to help you out. It's succeeding. It's learning. It's helping you by telling you, hey, Scott, don't apply for a fucking job because all you, all it does is hurt you. It's almost like, you're not. like you have an abusive relationship with life and you're like, you know, you're the person who keeps on going back to their abusive partner even though they get beat. And your brain is telling you that, hey, life is abusive because every time you try to live life, what happens, Scott?

Get kicked. Absolutely, right? Because you put it, you get kicked back in the hole. So what do you think about that? It's really easy to just play wow all day. Absolutely. And why is it really easy to play wow? Because it's a really easy escape. It's where feel, maybe not escape, bad word. Good. Why is it a bad word? Because that kind of makes it feel like I'm losing, I guess. Yeah, so it's not an escape. What is it? Comfort?

Sure. Yeah, absolutely, right? So I'd say it's almost like a strategy to do what for you? To just stay comfortable, not put myself into any kind of emotionally harming situations and just stay. where I'm comfortable and happy. Yeah, so I don't like the word comfort because that too has a value judgment, right?

If someone decides to stay comfortable, we judge them and we say like, oh, you should put yourself out for more. Push for more. Yeah. So I like the word happy because I think that's closer to the truth. I also like the word protects. Protect.

So it feels protective to me. It's like tanking. Like gaming is the way that your brain tanks the bad stuff in life. Yeah. What do you think about that? it makes sense because it kind of shelters me from everything else, which is what tank does. Absolutely, right? And is that a bad thing?

I don't necessarily think so. Why not? I think it's because I think everyone should have something that tanks the kind of like the harmful things in life for me. Absolutely, right? So what do we do about that? I don't know. I'll be honest. I'm not really sure. That's a great answer, man. Fantastic question. Yeah, I'm not so sure, but I'm hoping we can try to figure something out.

Yeah, me too, me too. So I think the first thing to understand is that I want you to stop thinking about gaming as an addiction. Okay. Because, like, an addiction is a negative thing. It's something that you have to overcome. And what am I trying to, like, when I'm walking you to interpret things in a particular way, like, what am I trying to do? Like, how am I pushing you towards, like, thinking about gaming? as it is like a I don't know that it's a healthy thing that it's that is good for me at the moment but

I mean I yeah I don't think you've messed at the moment but I think for me it's a good thing at the moment yeah so I think healthy and good for you also imply certain value judgments right so I don't think that your gaming is healthy I think it is protective protective yeah right so so I think that a lot of the stuff that you said in terms of sort of being behind in life and stuff like that I think all that stuff makes sense. I think you should play less than 18 to 20 hours of wow a day. And I also think that you don't play just because you're addicted. I think you play because your brain has two options. It's kind of like we can do this one thing that leads to uncertain like progress, which is like apply for a job and work on our CV because you say that you know

that's going to make your future better. I don't think your brain understands that. And I don't, because I don't think that that's fair because what has your CV done for you, Scott? Yeah, pretty much nothing. Right? So then here's the thing. Your brain is smart. Your brain is working for you. And so your brain is like, Scott, why the fuck are we working on this CV?

It's never gotten you anything. Instead, we've got this other thing that gives you happiness, accomplishment, and feeling whole. Like, why would you ever want to work on your CV when you can get all of those things here and all your CV ever gets you is more sadness exactly yeah so it's not an addiction

it's actually a protective mechanism what was that this big sigh what do you think yeah I just like a realization thing because it does make sense like it's like I feel like a lot of people

aren't necessarily happy with their jobs but they do it because they know that they have to and like I'm in a pretty little fortunate situation where I don't necessarily need income right now so it's I feel like I'm lucky but I feel like I could be doing better which is the sigh, I think.

But it's, yeah, just a realization sigh, I guess. Yeah, that you could be doing better. What does that mean? I mean, I could be living independently. I could be getting income, buying the things that I want, that kind of thing, I guess. Sure. You could be doing better. What does your brain feel about that?

It wants to play while. Yeah, how does it feel about doing better? Um anxious, I guess Like, because it Obviously, the thought of doing better Obviously means I'm striving to actually better myself, which in itself makes me feel quite anxious.

Does your brain care about bettering yourself? Um I guess directly not, but That's correct. Brain doesn't give a shit. Brain doesn't understand bettering yourself. That's your mind. Those are your intentions.

But the. brain is like, like, if you think about it, like, that's why we have to fight against ourselves, like when we exercise, right? If you go out and you try to exercise, your brain is like, what, what are we doing? What the fuck? Yeah. This is dumb. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're just, you're running, but there's no reason to run. There's no, there's no purpose. So our brain is, is kind of, the idea of bettering yourself is not something. There's no, like, neuroscience circuit about bettering yourself. There is a circuit around progress, right? And the tricky thing is that, We have a circuit that, and the problem is that part of our brain can't tell the difference between progress in the real world and progress in a virtual world.

Right. Right. So, like, you could also argue that if you trade stocks during the day and you see a number on a computer screen go up, we can think of that as progress. But the stimulus for the brain is exactly the same whether you're seeing the honor go up or the number in your bank account go up in that moment. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It's just a number on a screen. Both of them are just a number.

on a screen. We tend to, as a society, attribute more value to one than the other, and I don't think that that's a mistake. But our brain is just like, hey, we're doing better. And that's a very, very deeply wired circuit of our brain. That sort of, if you think about it, like, you know, kids fall and then they get back up and they walk again. And they keep on failing over and over and over again. But it's that sort of strive, it's something called intent to mastery. So we all have this baked in part of our brain that kind of like tries to get. better at stuff and wants to see progress. And it doesn't care whether it's learning how to throw a ball or standing up and walking or, you know, grinding on. Whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, I mean,

where does the sense of better come from? Tell me about that. Meaning, like, doing better in life or... Yeah, like, why do you want to do better? Um, because I don't want to be a drop kick for my life, pretty much. I don't want to, uh, pretty much like, sorry just does nothing. Like, living on like social benefits and stuff like that, I guess. Like I don't want to be. Um, I want to study. I want to raise a family. I want to provide.

I want to do all those things so that I can, I don't know if it's like leave a mark on the world or whatever it is, but like I want to do something that's like actually means something. Rather than just. What does that mean? Yeah. I know. In like a,

I guess like, to provide like I don't know I want there to be someone who actually understood like this person did something in life I don't know why that is I don't know if that's like a deeply lodged thing in people's brains but it's something that I want to do

I want to like have my kids know that they had like a dad who cared for them and wanted to do something in this life and like actually wanted to do things I guess so what is it that you want can you say that again to have people be proud of me I guess like that kind of thing yeah Can I just think for a second?

Yeah, of course. So I just want to point something out. So I think there's a difference between what you want and the ways in which your mind comes up with fulfilling that want. So you said something about having a family and being successful and having a job and stuff like that. You said that these are all the things that you want. That's what you mean by better because I was asking about better. But what I think the really core of it, I think those are all, pictures of this sense of being proud.

Does that make sense? I think what you really want is for people to look at you and say, like, hey, that's an awesome person. Yeah. And if we think about it, you know, when you think about what games protect you from, what is the main thing that they protect you from? You kind of mentioned the word a couple of times,

but there's one word that kind of like sadness. I don't think it's sadness. Protects me from... What drives you into games? more than anything else? Happiness. What negative thing? Let me put it this way.

What are games tanking from? What are they tanking? Damage of the real world. I can't remember the word I used. Yeah, so I mean, you've mentioned rejection several times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So, like, for me, the thing that seems to float to the surface out of everything you've said is rejection. Yeah.

What do you think about that? Is that the main thing that they tank? Yeah, yeah, pretty much. So what do you think is the relationship between wanting people to be proud of you and rejection, if any? Are those two things connected? I feel like most people will go through rejection in their life and that you kind of just have to tank through it. And I don't know if those are like directly connected though. Okay, fair enough.

Yeah. Okay. So let's think through this. Right? So you have to tank through it, but games tank rejection, right? Yeah. And as long as that rejection is there and it's big, you're going to need to tank it. So there are two things that you can do. You can tank damage or you can do what?

Do you damage. You can do damage, absolutely. Yeah. Or, so if you're a rogue, right, in Wow, and you're in a raid, the main tank serves as protecting you from damage. What's the other, like, critical role that we're missing? Healing. Absolutely. So I think that gaming serves as a tank, but the question is like, where is the healing in your life?

Right? So if we think about the fear of rejection is that which keeps you into the game, playing the game. Yeah. And the more that we kind of, like, the more you're afraid of rejection, the more you need your tank. And tanking is the game. You're the DPS. Like, what are we missing? Yeah, the healer.

Like what heals? So what is it that needs to be healed? I guess the damage that comes through because of the rejection. Absolutely. Right? So now our question becomes, when was the first time you were kicked into the pit? Probably right after high school. Tell me about that.

I pretty much, I finished high school and I pretty much did nothing for a while. Like, I didn't really know what to get into, so I was just really down and just didn't really know what to do with anything. And then I just found a couple of games to play that obviously filled the void. And then it was, it was really hard to get out of that pit of playing games and being protected. Can I just interrupt you for a second? Yeah. So you use the phrase filling the void. Yeah.

That implies to me like healing. Right? That implies you're fixing, if I've got a pit and I fill it in, the pit is no longer there. I don't think games filled in the void. Right. I think they boarded it up a little bit, but the void is still there. Yeah. Right?

Patched it up a bit. Sorry for interrupting you, but I think that... No, that's good, it's cool. It's a distinction that I wanted to just catch. Yeah. Yeah, so it sounds like you said that you weren't really sure what you were doing after high school. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah.

And then I went into like a kind of like an IT course. But I feel like I only really went into an IT course because I think it's like, I think it's just really common for people who like games to just go into IT, even though I don't have like, I don't have like a whole lot of interest in it. Sure. Like it's just like a, I think it's just a thing that's real common. Yeah. So Scott, let me just hypothesize with you for a second.

So, you know, if you say that you finished high school and you felt pretty directionless, that may have been when you got knocked into the pit, but I think the pit started getting done. way before that. Probably. Does that make sense? So tell me a little bit about, like, do you remember times in your life, like, before you finished high school where you kind of were rejected or you dealt with rejection?

Absolutely, yeah. Through high school, because we moved to this country from, I moved from England when I was pretty young, and I've pretty much always had an issue with allergies, and I have, like, eczema and, like, pretty bad eczema. Oh, I used to have, like, really, really bad eczema through high school. And I don't know if it was like the stress through school, but it was always like really, really, really bad. Like I'd go to school, like, with just bad exmo of my face and things like that.

So I think, I don't know, like, how would it be connected? I guess it was just like a, when I'd come, I was just excited to come home and just play games because in games I just felt comfortable, well protected from not having to show my face and things like that, I guess. Yeah. It was like a, yeah. Yeah, so let's take a step back from analyzing.

So let's just understand. So tell me about when did you move from the UK to you're in the U.S. or what? I'm in New Zealand. Oh, you're in New Zealand. So tell me when did you move to New Zealand. How old were you? I think I was about 11. Okay.

And what was, what do you remember about growing up in England? Not a whole lot. Pretty much, like through England, I was a school, family. I had like two friends in England that I would like go to their house and things like that and just do stuff after school and stuff. What was what was home like for you when you were growing up? Busy like it was pretty much always one parent was working one was home and just kind of shifted in and out But my sister's a big gamer one of my sisters is a big gamer and the other one's not And my dad was a big gamer as well uh two okay older younger both older I'm the youngest okay and um

What was it like, do you remember what it was like being a kid with your sisters at, like, in England? I don't have, like, too many, like, crazy memories, I guess. Not too, nothing really, like, pops out as, like, a distinctive thing. Were you guys close? Yeah. Yeah, it kind of shifted between the two of them. I was always closer to one than the other, I guess. I don't know why that was, but, yeah.

You said your dad was a gamer? Yeah, yeah, my dad used to play a lot of games. Why did you start? Like, oh, well, he passed away last year. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. But he got me into, like, a lot of games. Like, he got me into, like, a lot of the RPGs that I grew up with, like, Final Fantasy and stuff like that.

And I think he also got me into Wow. Like, when we got, like, our first computer when we moved here and had a friend that played while at school. And it was, yeah, pretty much started from there. What's it like talking about this? It's okay. I kind of, I don't think I was, like, crazy close to my dad, like, just as a whole. But talking about it feels okay, I guess. I kind of come to terms of it, I think.

Come to terms with what? Just his passing and talking about it is okay. I don't really tell people. I don't, I've never really told people, like, one-on-one, apart from, like, one or two friends. Just because, I don't know. I don't really like, I don't know if it's, like, a selfish thing, but I don't like turning a conversation all on me or like making people feel uncomfortable because I know that that kind of thing can make people feel uncomfortable I guess do you feel like you're burdening

other people by talking about your dad yeah yeah I feel like if it's like I don't know I'm never gonna bring it up unless it's like topic like the other time I told the only time I've thought like one of my really close friends was because we were going to another funeral and until then he didn't know I'm gonna just think a second okay Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. What's wrong with burdening other people? I guess I don't want to unnecessarily cause, like, I don't want to say like unhappiness,

but I don't want to like unnecessarily like shift a mood of like a room or something like that. So unless it's like a topical thing, I don't really want to just bring it up. I don't know, I just, I feel like it can like, if everyone's just having a good mood or like everyone's just, just like completely content or anything like that. I don't feel a need to bring it up, I guess. Do you miss your dad?

Yeah, from times of time. It's not like a, not particularly. We had like a lot of arguments when I was there because he was one of the people that really stroving to like kind of get a job and things like that. But I obviously I miss him, but it's not like, yeah. How did he make you feel when, tell you about those arguments? They kind of shifted from different things, like multiple things, like waking up past

12 o'clock because I'd have to play until like 3 o'clock because that's when the cues were good on wow or something like that. We're talking about after high school? Oh, no, that was recent. That was like pretty much a couple of months before I passed, I guess. Okay. And then after high school, it's kind of just get a job, no, get a job, no, kind of thing, I guess. Oh, I'm trying. And then it was get a job. I'm trying. What were things like between you and him during high school?

For the most part, they were okay. Like, it was kind of just, yeah, it was that, I guess. It was like the same relationship I have with my mom, which was like, fine. Good, I guess, yeah. Was it good? I'd say, yeah, like, because he was, like, a bit of an alcoholic. Like, so. to be times where it was a little bit shifty, but as a general thing, it was good.

Like, I never, like, resented him or anything like that. So it was, like, fine. I mean, there's a difference between fine and good. Well, yeah, yeah, of course. So what I'm hearing from you is that it was okay. Yeah, yeah, pretty much it was okay. Like, like, it sounds bad to say tolerate, but it's, like, kind of one of the words that pops up, I guess. Yeah.

What were you tolerating? Um. just the fact that he would come home drunk and be, it would be really uncomfortable. Like, I'm not very good around drunk people, but I think that might stem from that. But I don't know. I mean, how old were you when he would come home drunk? Pretty much all the way from like 14 to like 21. Okay.

Do you know any 14-year-olds that are quote-unquote good at handling drunk people? I guess not. I guess it's not really something that you can just pick up as a skill. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, did they not teach that to you, along with history and dinosaurs? I guess not. I must have missed the class. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you said 14, what changed when you were 14? Why did he start coming home drunk then? Um, I guess that's just kind of like an early recollection, but I guess he would probably come home around like 11 o'clock and I'd probably be in bed before that before us 14. So I guess that was kind of just like early recollection. Would you say that you were happy growing up in England? Um, content. I don't really have like too many memories of England, I guess.

It's kind of just, it's called here like merges together, kind of a blur, I guess. Yeah, for me too and everyone else. Yeah. Does anything in particular pop out in terms of memories? Do you have any strong memories from before you moved to New Zealand? Um, I used to be like a lot of football and like I used to be, uh, soccer. Um, they used to like quite good. So I guess I have memories of that. Sure. Um. How did it feel?

be good at football. Yeah, I mean, I loved it. Like, I've always been a very competitive person, so it's like, I think that's why my, I love games as well. Sure. But, yeah. Do you still play football?

Not as much as I'd like to, but, yeah, I'll, like, kick around with, like, my niece and stuff like that. Oh, you have a niece? Yeah. Oldest sister has two kids. How old are your niece or nephew? Oldest niece.

Oh, yeah, oldest is seven, I think. and nephew is two and a half, I think. Has your relationship with them? Pretty good, honestly. My nephew, like, every time I see him, he's like screaming, it's happy. Same with the niece, basically. What do they call you? Scatty.

What? Skattie. I don't know why. The reason I ask is because kids usually have weird names for, you know, family members. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. And so what was life for you after you moved to New Zealand? I don't really know.

When did your start? Pretty much as soon as we moved here, just because when you compared England to New Zealand, one of the biggest things you see in scenery is trees. And I have like real bad hay fever. So it got real bad, like, I got really bad eyes. Like my eyes get like really bloodshot and like puffy and stuff like that. So I was always like real nervous going to school at first. because my allergies was like awful.

What were you nervous about? Just like appearance. Like, because it would get really bad, exima would get really bad, and then I just like wouldn't really want to go out because I felt like I looked like a puffy mess. Mm-hmm. I can sympathize with the feeling of puffy mess

because I had eczema and I still have allergies. It's not very fun. Everything's just swollen. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Puffy mess is actually a great way to describe it. And did people ever comment about your skin or your puffiness? Not when I was like really new to England.

Like when I was in like like primary school like probably when I first moved here. Not really. I double take a couple of cases of bullying through like maybe like 13, 14. And then again like early midway through high school. Can you tell me about 1314? I guess it was kind of just doing schoolwork, football, and I don't know. Kind of bad with that kind of memory stuff, I guess. What do you remember?

Yeah. About being bullied or other things. I just remember like a couple of moments of being bullied just like, I remember like being bullied and stuff like that, which was, yeah, pretty weird. but why don't know I don't know I look weird eyes because of the allergies and stuff

oh wow yeah I don't really have like too many recollections other than that but really sure and then what about when you were a little bit older um I had

surgery a few times like because I've got I had like a pretty bad kidney as well just like a couple of health issues. And I remember one time I was hospitaled for quite a while. And I came out and I was a little bit chunky. And X-Men was bad.

And I just kind of got bullied for that kind of stuff as well. So kind of just added to the mix. Do you remember how they made you feel? Bad. I don't really, yeah. I don't really remember like what they'd say and things like that. But I definitely avoided like certain parts of the school because I knew people around that hang out.

That I didn't like. So how can we. add a little bit more color or depth to the way that they made you feel? What do you mean, sorry? So you say they made you feel bad? Yeah, so like more descriptive. Yeah. We don't have to talk about the scene. Tell me about what, if you can, tell me what the feeling was like. I mean, the biggest thing was like outcasted, I guess. Like, I was definitely outcasted from like a certain group of people because, I don't know, like, obviously in high school people hang out in groups. Did you feel like an outcast? Throughout some of the early years

of high school I did and then my ex-in started getting a little bit better and started getting a bit more confidence and realizing that there was other people who played games a lot

so it was kind of I could just hang up with those people so it was like okay but throughout the earlier you found your people you found us yeah exactly yeah exactly

I found Twitch chat welcome welcome brother feels good join us yeah I mean I'm just wondering you know

would you say that because when I think about outcasted you know it's an it's an it's an interesting verb it's not a verb that I hear very much and you know not to not to be a little bit too Freudian for you but I wonder if rejected would be a similar word yeah yeah yeah yeah it would be some um pretty much feels the same thing I guess yeah like what feels the same um just like the usage of the word like outcast it rejected like it's yeah pretty much that's it let me ask you something when you go to let's say you apply for a job

Where was last time you applied for a job? Three weeks ago. Okay. And have you heard back? No. Is the feeling when you think about that or when I ask that question, even that no is not a regular no, right? No, no. The feeling that you have, is that, do you, does it, does it smell or taste like what you used to feel like when kids would comment about when they would call you an alien or?

I feel like it's a little bit different because them denied me a job isn't like a hateful thing. Like I don't take it personally. It's just like a, there was someone better or something else happened, which is like perfectly fine. Is that how you feel? Yeah. Like if I didn't get the job, it means someone else did, which means there was probably someone that was just more applicable or better, which is okay. but like the whole hateful comments and things like that was like a direct thing that was to me. Sure.

They feel very different. Okay. So that's very helpful for me to know. Thank you for sharing that. So then let me ask you something. You know, if someone, if there was just a better candidate out there. Being told no indirectly, I guess. So it still feels like I'm not good enough or being rejected.

I see. So one is not being good enough. One is being persecuted or attacked. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. One feels more personal, the other one doesn't. Do you remember if there's anything that happened to you that made you feel not good enough growing up? I can't really think of anything in particular.

Sure. Can you tell me about what it was like when your dad would come home drunk? Hide of my room. Like, for the most part, like, if I was on the computer, like, I knew I would duck away before, like, 10.30. And I just hide to my room, play my phone or something, or on a console. because we had like a computer in like family room. Why would you hide? Because it was just uncomfortable.

What was uncomfortable about it? Being in the same room as them basically. Like I was, I couldn't tolerate it. Like I would just hide away. What made it difficult for you to tolerate? He wasn't, like, obviously they went not themselves when they're drunk. Like I, I've always disliked that. Like, they'll be a lot louder, a lot.

a lot I guess just him in particular was like a lot louder it was asking I don't know if it's like asking uncomfortable questions

I don't really remember any in particular but I just remember I was feeling very uncomfortable if I was in the room I guess but

I can't think of any super in particular ones I guess I'm trying to get a sense of so I mean I'm trying to understand what it was that made

you uncomfortable. Like, it makes perfect sense to me that you were uncomfortable. Yeah. Because, you know, 14-year-olds tend to be uncomfortable around drunk people. Yeah, yeah. But what was it, right? So some people will be judgmental. Yeah.

I guess it's, I guess it can be things like that. Like, he would, like, come in and just, like, it's just like a little comment. Like, they'd say just like a little comment, like, shouldn't you be in bad? Why are you still playing the games? You play the games too much kind of thing. I guess those kind of things would kind of just, kind of just. make me think I don't even want to talk about this I'm just going to go. So let me ask you something, Scott.

You know, when someone comments something like that, how do you think that, so if I have, you know, if I told my kid, shouldn't you be doing this? Shouldn't you be doing that? How do you think that that, that, what emotions do you think that my kid would be feeling if I ask those kinds of questions? It feels like you're not, I don't know, I want to say, like accepting them from what they are or what they're doing, I guess. Sure. Would you say that it would make them feel like they're not good enough?

Yeah. Yeah. Is that how your dad made you feel? Sometimes, yeah. Like, like, when I, because he was like a big football player as well. Or like loved, like, he was like big into me playing football as well. So like when I kind of stopped because Saturday, I was like big day on wow, usually. And like, just fun to do stuff like with your school friends, play league with school friends and stuff like that. So like when I didn't want to go to like all the trainings and like all the math. as he wasn't particularly happy about that.

I don't remember a specific argument or anything about it, but I do remember a bit of not-supportiveness. That's not a word, but yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, I like it when people use things that are not real words. Because I think that actually gets closer to an authentic feeling. Yeah. What that tells me is that you're feeling something that you don't have words to describe, but you're trying to create words to capture the feeling.

Yeah, yeah. So not supportiveness. So it sounds like there were kind of two things. One is, so it sounds like your dad was pretty judgmental. I'd say so, yeah. Yeah. And generally speaking, I think one of the effects of being judgmental is that you make people feel like they're not good enough. Yeah.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Is that closer to the way that you feel in terms of when you apply to a job? Like we talked a little bit about bullying and persecuted. You said it doesn't quite feel the same. It feels a lot more closer to like direct bullying, I guess, because it's like the two things kind of correlate with not being good enough. Oh, interesting.

So you're saying that your dad, the flavor of the feeling that your dad evoked is actually similar to bullying. Oh, no, it's more similar to denial of a job. Oh, it's more similar. Okay. Yeah. I was, because it sounds similar. No, sorry, I'm absolutely wet it that bad.

Right? So have you watched our streams before? Yeah, like pretty much all of them. Okay, so do you know what a Smskar is? I can't remember the descriptive word, but I kind of have it in my brain. Sure. What's in your brain? You, I get all of them kind of mixed up.

Sure. Like, Sinska, Dharma, things like that. No problem. So descriptive word is not my best. Okay, sure. What am I digging for? You get the sense I'm digging? A little bit.

What am I digging for? I'm not sure in particular. Like what it is exactly that you're digging for. Okay. I can tell you're looking for something, though. Yeah. Yeah, so let me just be a little bit more transparent. Root of the problem?

Sure. Yeah. And what do you think about that? Do you think there is a root? I mean, I'd say so. It might be like a collective of things, but I'd say... Yeah, what do you think is in that collective?

Being denied at multiple things, or like, yeah, not being... What's to it? Rejected at multiple things, I guess. That have just led to a whole bunch of covering myself up with... Like, patching myself up with, like, a bunch of, like, games and stuff like that, I guess. Sure. Is there any rejection that you felt that is particularly painful? I don't really think so.

I don't think there was, like, one in particular that, like, like, you know, broke everything. Yep. I'm getting that sense as well. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes when I talk to people, we find sort of like a root of a problem and we're able to kind of like notice it and evoke it. And then oftentimes they have a very like emotional response on stream. Is that something that you're looking for, hoping for?

Not really. I more so just want to understand. Sure. I think. So what I'm getting the sense is that just like you said, I don't think you have one thing. I think you've got a lot of little things. Yeah. And, you know, if we think a little bit about tanking versus healing, I think you've got a couple of things.

Let me just think about this for a second. So I think there are a couple of things going on. So the first is that gaming is sort of the boards above the pit. Yeah. Right? But the pit got there somehow to begin with. Yeah. generally speaking, I don't know how else to describe this, but I'd say about 30 to 40% of gamers

who I've worked with actually had an alcoholic problem, an alcoholic parent. So I don't know exactly how that relates. And I think it's, I also don't think, I mean, did your dad just suddenly develop a drinking problem when you were 14? No, it's pretty much always, like, I remember like situations I feel like going to the bar, like when I was in England and stuff like that. Yeah. So I think something changes in terms of when you have a parent who's an alcoholic.

in the way that they relate to their children. And something about the way that they relate to their kids makes children less confident. And now I'm going to sort of try to explain kind of academically. Yep. So, or let me actually ask you this. How does a child become confident? Kind of a big question, I guess.

So don't answer theoretically. Just start saying whatever comes to your mind. You're going to have a lot of wrong answers, but I'm sure you know the right answer. will get you there. I'd say just like building confidence within like success. Like if I was successful at school, I'd have more confidence. Sure.

So I like the phrase building. Yep. And the interesting thing is I don't think it just comes from success. Right. So how to like, so let me put it to you this way. Like in a weird way, let me think about how to ask this. So how did you know to go? to your room

when your dad came home drunk? Because it was an uncomfortable feeling that I wanted to avoid. Sure. And in a sense, you could say that going to your room,

you could be confident in that strategy. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, it's a pretty reliable strategy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does one learn, like, what's a reliable strategy? How does one develop?

I'm not talking about, like, confidence, even on the level of like, oh, I'm a confident person. I'm talking about, generally speaking, like, the idea of confidence, right? So what is confidence? It's like taking an action and being somewhat, like, confident about the result, right? Like, it's being sort of assured about the result. So, like, where does that come from? Like, how can you be confident that going to your room is, like, the right thing to do when your dad comes home drunk?

I don't know if it really applies to the whole going to your room thing, but I guess trial and error is, like, a good way to do it. Absolutely, right? So if we think about it, what leads to better confidence? Like, trying. Trying things. And then also like consistency of outcome. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Like if you go to your room and then like he shows up every now and then and like drags you downstairs, then what's going to be your confidence about going to your room as a solution? A lot lower. So confidence oddly enough for children comes from order. Does that make sense? It has nothing to do with success or failure. It has to do with order. So like a confident child, like so, you know, like a child becomes confident in walking

when they start to be able to predict the outcomes of their walking. Right. Does that make sense? And they also like have confidence in parents because until they walk, like if they know up, okay, if I hold hands, then I can be confident that I walk because I'm unstable on my own. But if I'm holding an adult's hand, then I'll be able to walk fine. So can you see how they become confident in holding an adult's hand and then graduate over the time they become confident in walking without hands? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what do you think it does for the order of a child's universe if they have a parent that drinks? Well, there's no stability, really. Like, they, like, it's two different people, right? Like, he comes on one person is another person in the morning. Yeah, absolutely. So what does that do for a child's confidence? Well, they don't have the consistency, so they don't have the same thing over and over again, I guess. Yeah, Scott, do you ever get worried that you're going to fall into the sky when you step outside of your room?

You step outside of your house? That's like a metaphor, I guess? No, practically. Do you worry that you're just going to fall into the sky and shoot out into space? I mean, I guess I've never had that feeling. Yeah, huh. So it sounds like in your world, gravity always goes. one direction.

Yeah, I guess that's just sort of been taught, though. Yeah. So you're confident, you're very, very confident in the direction of gravity because it always goes one way, right? Yeah. So, like, what you're describing to me is that you get gravity that goes both ways when you're a kid in terms of your parents, right? So you have a dad that sometimes he's one person, so it's like gravity goes in this

direction. And then other times, gravity goes in this direction. Right. And, like, can you imagine how anxiety provoking it would be if we did not know which direction gravity went? Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. If gravity sometimes went up and sometimes went down, how confidently do you think I would

move through life? Not at all. Not at all. Right? Why? Because there's no consistency. You don't know what's going to happen. Yeah.

So when we think about you and an alcoholic parent, like tie things together for me. What am I trying to say? Well, that I don't, like, I don't have the consistency. I don't have that reliability, I guess, of him being. But I don't know if I'm not seeing the connection, though. Like, I don't. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So the first thing is in terms of, so if we think about a fear of rejection. Right. Right. So like fear of rejection tends to be, can also be correlated with a lack of confidence. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like the confident person can handle.

rejection better. And in fact, the way that you talked about your job three weeks ago actually sounds relatively confident. Right. Like people just say like, oh, someone else was better qualified than I was. Like, it's no personal insult to you. You don't feel bad about it. It's just the way of the world.

Yeah. Is that how you feel about your last job application? I guess so. It's, um, I don't know if it's just like numb to like the consistency of like being told no or like not hearing anything. what it is, but... Sure. So it sounds like it's a little bit complicated in terms of...

A little bit, yeah, I guess. Yeah. So here's kind of the point that I'm making. So first of all, the whole comes from somewhere. So let's actually try to sort of give us, give you a brief summary, okay? So if you're addicted to video games, right? By the way, any questions so far? No, I think I'm a following pretty okay.

Okay. So I'm going to try to summarize, okay? So you're addicted to video games. So the first thing to understand is that video games are not a problem. they're a solution what do you think about that I'd say it makes sense what makes sense about it

the fact that they're all like it's consistent like it's pretty much always going to be there if you're not having a good day you can go home and play games which means there's a solution like but at the same time I do think that you yeah go ahead sorry

I do think you can kind of get addicted to a solution like if you have something that's like really consistent and keeps you happy I think you can still cling to that feeling. Absolutely, right? So this is also true of other addictions. So like, is heroin a problem? Absolutely. Is video games a problem? Absolutely. Is playing wow 20 hours a day? A problem? Absolutely. And they're also, I don't want you to think about it just as an addiction, just as a negative thing. But I want you to realize that it is a solution for your brain. Because it solves a problem that you have.

And the problem that you have is what? playing it too much. Oh, I know. That's the solution. So what is it tank? What is it tank for you? I guess it tanks rejection and failure. Yeah, so it sounds like rejection and failure are the main feelings of yours that it tanks from.

Yeah. So now we kind of go to, so the first thing that I just want everyone to understand is that gaming is adaptive and protective and is actually a solution to another problem. Now, that solution can become maladaptive. So maladaptive is like when we do something and it's sort of like works in the short term, but over time it becomes maladaptive. So it starts to cause problems even though it was adaptive at one point. Does that make sense? So I think rather than solution or problem, I like the phrase adaptive or maladaptive.

And the best example of something that's maladaptive that I like to use is. So you know what hypertension or high blood pressure is? Yep. So do you have any idea? So if I have a blood vessel and my heart is pumping And if I have high pressure in that blood vessel Do you know what has to do? Do you have any idea?

Like how do you overcome a... Like if I have a high amount of resistance And I'm trying to push something into that resistance, What do I have to do? Release? Stress release? Yeah. So releasing the resistance would be one thing.

The other thing is that you can push harder. Okay. So actually it's funny because that's one of the ways that high blood pressure medications work is they reduce the resistance. But one thing that you can actually do, so like basically like when you have a high pressure system, so what happens is you have like arteries. And then if I in the job of the heart is to pump blood into the artery, right? And if I clamp down on the artery, what is what does the heart have to do? Push through the clamp? Exactly.

So it has to push harder. So the greater the resistance, if I like if I'm lifting weights and I increase the resistance of the weight, what? What do my muscles have to do? Build up and push through it. Exactly. And that is exactly what the heart does. So the heart starts to grow when you have high blood pressure. So the heart, just like your biceps or triceps or pectorals or whatever, like any time a muscle hits high resistance, it grows.

It builds up. And then the heart gets bigger and bigger and bigger as it deals with higher and higher and higher pressure. Now, the interesting thing about the heart is that, you know, there's like there's a bunch of muscle. And, you know, the heart is filled with blood, so the muscle needs blood to nourish it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have these, like, three arteries that go outside the heart, and they feed sort of the outside of the heart. And then you've got blood on the inside of the heart. So the blood from the inside kind of feeds the top half of the heart.

The blood from the outside feeds the bottom of half of the heart. I mean, what do you think happens if the heart expands? Everything else expands, or is the... What happens to the blood flow? So, like, if I'm getting blood from here and I'm getting blood from here, What happens to the stuff in the middle? Not sure. It doesn't get blood.

Right. Because, like, there's blood coming from here and there's blood coming from here. And if I, let me put it to you this way. If I have, you know, if I pour water on something, like, let's say a piece of, like, let's say a piece of cardboard. If I sprinkle a little bit of water on top and I sprinkle a little bit of water on the bottom, like, the whole cardboard is going to get wet. Yeah. Okay? If I increase the thickness of the cardboard 10 times and I sprinkle a little bit of water

on top, sprinkle a little bit of water on bottom, what happens to the middle of the cardboard? Does it get wet? Stay dry. Stay dry. Exactly. So that's exactly what happens to the heart. So as the heart grows, so the heart is trying to adapt to the high pressure system by growing. And then eventually what happens is it grows so big that it actually the heart can't get blood.

Because there's blood coming from the top and blood. coming from the top and blood coming to the bottom, but the thing is so big, the middle of the heart, quote, unquote, stays dry, just like you said. Okay. And if it stays dry, that means it doesn't get nourishment and that starts to die. Yep. And this is something called a congestive heart failure. So in the same way, sorry for that, you know, medical analogy. No, no, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Too complicated. But what I want you to understand is that gaming for you was a short-term solution that has now caused you to become a different kind of person, and that solution is no longer working.

Right. But what you really need to understand is that gaming really is a tank for you. And what it's tanking in your case, I think is some sense of good enough or like being sensitive to rejection. A lack of confidence in who you are. So every rejection hurts. So I want you to just think about this for a second that like, you know, if you're confident in who you are, like let's say that I'm confident to who I am, I ask a girl

out and she says no. How does that affect me? You might lose some confidence. Yeah. And if I have no confidence and she says, no, how does that affect me? Might shatter you. Exactly. What happens every time you don't get a yes from a job?

I'd say it shadows me a little bit, but I've built some resistance, but yeah. Yeah, right? So you've built some resistance to it, which is also very good. Like, it's good that you notice that. That too is sort of an adaptation. And what is your resistance? Let's just think about this for a second. How have you become resistant to shattering?

Because you didn't say it hurts you a little bit. You said it shatters you a little bit. What is the nature of that resistance? Consistency. Like, because, I mean, I've been doing it for a while now. Yep. So it's like, you know, kind of builds. So I would venture that you've learned how to numb yourself from it.

Yeah. Yeah, that's so. Right? So that, too, is going to be maladaptive. So I've asked you a lot of questions. I think it's a little bit difficult for you to access your feelings. Mm-hmm. What would you say to that?

I say, that's pretty true. Yeah, right? So, like, what's up with that? I think it's because you've learned how to numb yourself from rejection, because my sense is that inside the trapdoor of your subconscious, there is a whole pile of, like, feeling like a shitty human being. Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. And where is that sensation throughout the day? Hiding behind the bridge that is games. Absolutely, beautifully put, right?

So that too is like when we try to do when I ask you some kind of these exploratory questions like it's you know you're kind of like I'm getting shades of gray but I'm not getting a whole lot of color like you would say like okay how did your dad make you feel like you say uncomfortable like yeah you know that's you know I completely agree that he made you feel uncomfortable but uncomfortable is sort of like a shallow term it's not like yeah you know did he make you feel ashamed did you make you make you were you frightened of him? were you angry with him? There are all those kinds of things that kind of fall under uncomfortable. Yeah. So kind of just going back to our analogy, so like I think gaming is adaptive, right? So it tanks. So this is the floorboards over the pit. And then that pit comes from somewhere.

So in your case, I'm not sure exactly where it comes from. But so we sort of hypothesized maybe it comes from bullying. It sounds like it doesn't come from bullying. It sounds like the feeling that is closer is actually the feeling that like something around the way that your dad made you uncomfortable. right is that fair or not really i'd say in a way um but i'm not really a hundred percent certain which is sure so one of the yeah yeah one of the what i think one of the primary reasons that i really wanted to come on here and talk to you was pretty much so i can get a bit more understanding of that so i can

kind of at least get a little bit more knowledge on what it might be yep yes so i i think i'm not sure if it's partially your dad or other things and we can give this another shot. Okay? Like we can continue talking after it my summary. But the first thing is that gaming is an adaptive is adaptive and is actually a solution. The second thing is that it protects you from the pit, but the pit was dug somewhere else. We haven't quite been able to figure out, it sounds like it's not bullying, maybe has something to do with your dad, maybe not. And that ultimately your solution is going to be twofold. One is to try to fill in the pit because if you can deal with that underlying sense of rejection or that lack of confidence and that too, your lack of

of confidence may come from the disorder of your childhood. Right. Because like that kid, like when you just don't know, like it's really hard to have, I mean, just think about this for a second. Like how difficult is it for a child who has like Dr. Jackal or Mr. Hyde for a parent? I'm not familiar with the two people. I'm sorry. So boomer reference.

So let me put it this way. Like, you know, like who's another good example of someone who's got like, yeah i'm i'm trying to think of it because clark cat and superman is not really a good example but um who's a good twitter chat help me out hold on i'm gonna talk about two face two face Hulk yeah Hulk yeah Hulk yeah i don't know harvey dent two face uh you familiar with harry let's go with two face yeah Gallum.

I'm not sure what, what, um, what to use, Walter White? Ah, no, man, Walter White is he just changed from good to bad. It's not, it's not, yeah. So, so my point is like, you know, you don't know who you're getting, right? So it's like, it's really confusing when you have a parent who's loving and kind and supportive. But then like another day, it's like gravity is going up or gravity is going down. It's just fucking hard. So, so I think something about your lack of confidence probably comes from that.

So something about the whole comes from there. And then the problem is that, as you mentioned earlier, like, you know, when you don't have confidence and you get rejected, it's shattering. And then on top of that, when you say, like, you know, what does rejection do to you? And your response is it shatters me a little bit. Like, that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. And then even that, though, makes sense because I think another adaptive mechanism that you have is you've learned how to numb yourself to the. the pain of being shattered. But I do think you get shattered with every rejection.

And so I think your way forward is twofold. One is to understand that gaming is tanking and that at some point, like, what you're going to have to do is stop let it tanking. And you've got to understand that gaming is going to be a very good solution. But I think you're actually doing a really good job. If you applied for a job three weeks ago, that's actually really good. And at some point, you've got to understand. that like you're going to be shattered a little bit more.

And not so much that you get used to the shattering because that you've already done. But I do think it's possible for you to, how can I say this, not get shattered by rejection through sort of intentional growth. Right? So like instead of like numbing yourself to those feelings, like really sitting with those feelings, walking through them and like letting them kind of pass through you. because right now I think what's going on is each rejection sort of like adds junk to your inventory and you're not really like vending that junk and so over time like your subconscious is just cluttered

with all this trash that is like you know and what you really need to do is vendor your junk but I don't think you do that because what you essentially do is you close the bag and that's your numbness you just close your inventory you're like fuck this is such a mess and you just close the inventory and then you keep on trying to live life. And then you don't have any, like, room for good shit in there because all the bad shit is filling up your subconscious. Subconscious actually works like that, by the way. If it's filled with bad shit, there actually isn't room for good shit.

Good stuff. Yeah, yeah, I got to. And so I think you've got to open up your bags and vendor some of that shit. So some of that can be through, you know, we can try to talk a little bit further after this if you feel like it. We can, you can see a therapist or something like that. Have you ever tried to see a therapist? I have once, yeah, but didn't. Okay. So that's something worth kind of reconsidering.

The other thing is, you know, we have to try to fill in that pit. So we have to figure out, like, where did this lack of confidence and this sensitivity to rejection come from? I mean, I think the eczema honestly sounds like that would make someone pretty fucking sensitive to rejection. You know, to be, like, judged for, like, your face and someone call you an alien because your eyes are popping. like that sounds like it's a pretty bad fucking rejection. Yeah. Appreciate it. And so it strikes me as a little bit odd that you feel like the feeling is actually different,

but I'm going to respect that. I'm going to assume you're right because I think if you feel like it's not the same, it's not the same. You may have more than one kind of rejection sensitivity. One of them does feel to me, it makes sense, though, because you said one of them feels like a lot more persecutory. And then the other one, the other sort of like, you know, the job application thing doesn't feel.

like it's a personal insult. It feels like you're a cog in the wheel and you're just getting railroaded by the system. Yeah, yeah. And so I wonder if you've, if, you know, there's been a time in your life where you felt like you got railroaded by the system. Is that? Possibly, yeah. I'd say

it could be a thing, yeah. I'd say it could be, yeah. I mean, so, so what do you think about this? So one strategy is to like kind of change a little bit, like, recognize that gaming is actually going to be doing a lot of important stuff for your brain and to try to catch those moments and to try to like actually expose yourself to a little bit more negative emotion. So that's one option. Second option is you

have to figure out where the source of this rejection sensitivity comes from and try to, you know, cleanse that debuff. Right. I'd say probably just like exposing myself to a little bit. It's probably like a bit of a better bet for me, I think. Okay. So I think that's something I'll try. It's just Just scary. What's scary about it? Well, expose ourselves to kind of like the negativity and things like that. Yeah, you want to try that here? Like explain or...

I mean, do you want to try it here? Yeah. Okay. So close your eyes. Sit up straight. Okay, we're going to try it a different way. So when was the last time that a rejection really hurt you? So it sounds like this last one wasn't that bad.

Yeah, no, this one, this last one was never. I said it was around, probably around three months ago, I got her job interview, and it felt like it went well. And this obviously something like get in touch with me. And, I mean, I was quite excited for the job. Like, I thought it was something that I could do. There was something that helped me keep, like, healthy on my feet and things like that. And obviously, I thought it went well.

Like, the interviewer was, like, really nice and things like that. And then just didn't hear anything. and it was just the fact that I didn't get a know that it just kind of kept lingering and it just felt like as each day went past that sinking just like got worse and worse and worse Okay so tell me what the sinking

Where do you feel the same? Do you remember? Definitely in the chest Like it's just The feeling of thinking That something was gonna start doing well And then it wasn't like you get on a high temporarily And then you just like gradually feel the sinking

Consistently So it kind of kind of feels like, you know, an elevation followed by like a depression. Yeah. Like a disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. Huh.

Interesting. Have you had that feeling before? Like that, that kind of excitement in your chest followed by kind of like the sinking feeling? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard quite a bit.

Can you tell me about a couple of times? One of the ones was like a test in school. I used to do drama and things like that like acting and I thought I'd do well and then like it's pretty much like kind of situations where like I kind of amp myself up to thinking that I did well and I didn't like misguiding myself

and then another situation was pretty much similar to the last job one where I thought I did really well and then ended up like I actually got a call for that one and thought that they were just going to say yeah you can start on like Tuesday or whatever

and they were just like now we've gone with somewhere else like remember like the shadow like the feeling of just like nothing good oh okay what did the shatter feel like pretty much just like just like a quick sudden sink like in movies when they just like fall through water yeah like that why are you laughing um i don't know i think it's like a coping mechanism that i have what are you feeling right now um i don't think it's like embarrassment it's just It is a little more uncomfortable, like, talking about this stuff, but I think that's... Where do you feel like this comfort? Um, I'm not really sure.

Good. I think it's kind of, yeah, everywhere. So just focus. So tell me what it feels like. It just feels quite shallow in my chest. Like, can't really tell where, like, the surface is. It just quite feels, like, a little bit empty. I don't know.

Okay. I want you to just focus. in on that feeling. The shallowness of your chest, the emptiness of your chest. And now what's happening to the feeling? It's kind of soothing over a little bit. Yeah. It's kind of interesting.

You can even see it. You can see the change to come over you. Try to feel it. Soothing over it. What does that mean? It's like, um, I don't know, I got like a visual thing of like, like, when they're like soothing the cement of a bricks and they're like building something. Okay. So you're kind of, you're kind of helping it out.

Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you something. Is there a particular time where you felt that feeling of kind of shallowness or emptiness pretty profoundly? I can't think of like any other like really specific situations. Okay. How did you feel when your dad passed away? Um, yeah. My... Yeah, I definitely felt the big sink. Like, yeah, it was kind of like a mixture of, like, panic and the shallow sinking feeling.

Like, the instant, like, the thud. What about, what about that situation? What was it? Were there thoughts that came with the shallow sinking feeling and the thud? Yeah, because my mom gave me the call, and I could just, like, hear the distress. and it just hit. I really captured the feeling at the moment, but just like a big sink.

So, I felt very frantic. Like, I want to be there, but yeah. Did you have, I mean, I think it's,

you know, any parent passing away is very, very difficult. Is there something in the same flavor or color as what we've been talking about with your dad passing away? The, I mean,

the sinking feeling of that is, quite similar to when I got the phone call for the not getting the job, but obviously on a much grander scale. Sure, of course. So did that, when your dad passed away, did you feel like, I mean, does that feel like, I know it's going to sound like a weird word, but I'm asking you literally, in your body, does it feel like a rejection? Yeah. What do you think was it that got rejected? the losing the opportunity to show that I can do better I guess that's kind of interesting I mean oddly enough Scott I think that is the statement that you've made that feels the

most full circle to me because I had kind of written down on my paper that there was fear of rejection and what you're really wanting to do is like make people proud did you want to make your dad proud? Yeah. Was he proud? I'd say certain things, I guess, but as a whole, I probably could have done a lot better, but yeah, I'm not sure. Do you feel like you screwed up?

A little bit, yeah. Now, help me understand, when you say a little bit, does that actually mean... A lot. Yeah. Because there could be other feelings there, right? Yeah. Because it's completely reasonable for you to think that you didn't screw up that big because, you know.

Yeah. I mean, who do you feel like you've let down? Primarily him. Because, like, I know that I could have done better. And it's just not living up to the potential that I, like, I think I have inside me. Mm-hmm. So, so now I'm going to ask you a question, Scott. Hmm.

When you get rejected, I think that they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, two parts of you. I think there's a part of you that feels like you have the potential to do great things. And in a weird way, and now I'm going to be a little bit Freudian, okay, so you have to forgive me a little bit if this is just, this could just be complete bullshit. So I want, I want you to imagine that there are two versions of your dad, right? The one who's not drunk and the one who's drunk. And then each of those versions, in turn creates two versions of you. There's the who taught you how to play football, who played Final Fantasy with you, there's that guy. And so then there's also two Scots. There's the Scott who's confident in himself and knows he has potential.

And then there's another Scott who is kind of unsure about what he's worth. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And then I think that what maybe is very scary for you is that you're not sure which of those Scots is real. And every time you get rejected, maybe it terrifies you a little bit that the one who's a failure is actually the real scot. Yeah. Yeah, that says pretty accurate.

Yeah. So I'm going to just, I just want you to sit with that thought for a second, okay? And I want you to try to, how can I say this? Do you know how those two Scots feel different? What their experience, what your experience of them is. is or their experience of you. Because sometimes you're one Scott and sometimes you're the other Scott. I guess I have moments of confidence when I think I've done, like, after the interviews,

for example, something like that. So I guess is that like an example of one Scott and then the other is the other? Maybe. And I think what's really scary is that you start to believe that you're the successful Scott and then life shows you that actually that Scott is false and you're actually that Scott is false and you're actually a piece of shit. Yeah. Is that how it feels?

Yeah, and I think that the sinking feeling is probably the transition, like the noticing moment. So your road forward. So right now, which Scott do you feel like? The piece of shit one. Okay. And is there, what does that feel like? Disappointing.

Okay. Physically. And emotionally. But yeah. Physically, how does it feel? Oh. not good I don't know how to explain it physically I guess

Is it something that you feel in a part of your body or your entire body? Pretty much the entire body I don't think it resides in one place It's pervasive right? Yeah I want you to breathe into your body And then exhale So as you breathe in I want you to

Imagine vitality Coming in and it's suffusing you. You can feel that breath throughout your entire body. And all of the sense of disappointment and failure that just fills up every single cell in your body is getting jostled by that vitality. And as you breathe out,

I want you to like squeeze that negativity out of you like you're twisting a wet rag. You're bringing in, so imagine that you're like a rag that's full of dirty water, and then you add clean water to it with each breath, and then you wring it out. So a lot of dirt leaves, but there's still a lot of dirt that remains.

And so with each breath, you're adding more clean water, and with each cycle, with each exhalation, you're wringing out more dirt. Good. Now transition to the nose. Bit harsh one nose.

Okay, then go ahead and stick with your mouth then. Good. What are you feeling? clean more. Good. So I want you to do three more breaths like that and let your breathing return to normal. Good.

And now, Scott, I want you to listen. So I want you to understand that successful Scott and failure, Scott, are both false. That fundamentally, you're not dirty water and you're not clean water. That's like successful Scott and failure, Scott. What you actually are the rag. That's the real you. And in order for you to really move past this, what you really need

to let go is not just the sense of disappointment. The sense of disappointment is something that you buy yourself when you have the what? Confluence or the... Absolutely. As bizarre as that sounds. Right? So this is the really, really tricky thing is that when you have the expectation or hope or confidence for success, that's just, that's like the casting bar for the actual spell of disappointment. You're building it up with the confidence. And then when your spell cast finishes, you're going to launch that fireball or frostbolt or whatever. And so what you really need to do is take a step back from both of those things. And just try to be like, so take a snapshot.

Like, how do you feel right now? Um, a lot more tranquil, I guess. Okay. Are you successful right now? I mean, more so than I was, like, an hour ago. Okay. I feel a lot more, like, I understand the situation a lot more. So, I agree with you that you understand the situation.

Are you successful? No. Good. Are you a failure? Yes. A little bit. A little bit, okay. But less so than before.

right? Yeah, yeah. You feel like a failure in this moment. Yes. Okay. So I want you to try to notice that that feeling of failure is not actually you, but is something that fills yourselves. Does that make sense? It does, yeah. So it's like you still have a bunch of crap that you need to vendor. We're not going to cure you yet. It's not like you can just click one button and sell all your trash. But I want you to notice what has changed in you. So you've shed a little bit of failure, but you have not gained a little bit of success. Does that make sense? It opens up more, for more space for success, though. Sure. But what I really want you to notice is that so far you have thought that when you reduce failure, success comes. It's a seesaw. Right. Right. But you're not actually any more successful.

You've just stepped off of the seesaw a little bit, so it has less up and down. And, and, and, And the more that you can understand, like, the more you can become closer to what you are now, and I see that, you know, you still feel the failure pretty profoundly. So I think you've got to do this kind of practice, like this visualization of like ringing out the dirt. That's really what you've got to do. I think the better off you're going to feel. Right. And when it comes to applying for a job, it sounds like you apply for how many jobs per month?

Mm-hmm. Two, three. Yeah. So I think that this is where what you need, you also need to do is each one of those. What happens is like you enter the cycle of success or failure with each job that you apply to. Does that make it sense? So actually what you need to do is if you're going to apply for three jobs a month, so be it. But apply to them all at the same time.

Okay. What do you think that's going to do? It's, I feel like if it does it all at once, it just, I don't know. the actual feeling would be, but it'd feel a little bit more relieving, I guess. Yeah, why? I don't know if it, like, gets it out of the way, or if I get the surge of positivity or... What I hope it does for you is it depersonalizes the process. This is the other really, really, really big thing you need to do, Scott.

You need to depersonalize this process of finding a job. Right now, your value as a human being is time. tied to a particular job, like job outcome. Does that make sense? Your value as a person is determined by whether you get the job or you don't get the job. As you apply for more jobs in a shorter period of time, you become uncoupled from the job process. Right.

So practically, I think it will be better for you to apply to more jobs faster. Okay. Now tell me what's happening to the shallowness or emptiness in your chest. How's that doing? It feels pretty patched up, like, well, like, well, I'm soothed over, I guess. Okay. Now, good. So I think you just did a little bit.

You just cast a, you know, a flash heel. Yeah. You can open your eyes whenever you're ready. Good. I'm glad you're feeling a little bit better. Any, has this been helpful? Not helpful? Yeah, it's okay.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. Why? it gave me more realization of like the not necessarily the root of the problem but like the cause I guess like the the multiple things and maybe identify those a bit better which is good because I think I think I can learn from that or improve what have you identified that's a bit hard to explain that that so Scott I think you do a fabulous job of explaining when you

think you do a bad job. Right. I understand what I actually feel about, like, success and things like that. I feel like I need to just do things rather than think about them more and well-o-on-them-a-on-them-a-bit. Yep. So I feel like that's one thing that, like, games have helped a lot with. It's just it helps to wellow it out a bit, I guess. It helps you what?

Like, mellow it out. Sure. Yeah. I don't know. Words are hard. Yeah, they are. So, so, so I, so I think that that's actually really good. Um, so I, I think when you say mellowed out, so I, I think another way that I would describe that is like depersonalization.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so like, you need to, like I was saying earlier, remove yourself from the equation. And much like you're questing and wow, like, like, like when you're, when you're doing Stranglethorn veil, is that right? Yeah. When you're doing Stranglethorn veil, like, do you, do you take one quest at a time and go out and do it?

Yeah, I got multiple. Why? Yeah. It's more efficient. Okay, so what about your job-seeking process? Yeah, they'll be more efficient if I do them all the once. Yeah, absolutely, right? So this is the last crazy thing I'll leave with you.

I think you can actually learn a lot from video games. I think that a lot of the gamers that I work with, when I actually help, I feel like I'm sort of, I've unleashed them into some environments. Like I've set them up with things like internships and things like that in the past. Sometimes with startups and even at places like there's a really good university in Boston called Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And my favorite thing to do with gamers that I work with in Boston is to set them up at MIT

or in MIT's incubator, which is like their entrepreneurship sort of thing. So you'll get like PhD students at MIT. And then if I stick a gamer who has no job experience, if I just drop them in one of those internships, they actually do a phenomenal job. So I think a lot of their very analytical thinking and, a lot of the way that they problem solve and stuff is actually very, very helpful. The other interesting thing is that they tend to be very, very dedicated. So I know you grind, wow, for 18 or 20 hours a day.

I've dropped people in internships who will work for 20 hours a day, and they absolutely love it. And they do a phenomenal job. So I think that you can absolutely learn things from World of Warcraft. You can learn how to be efficient. You can learn how to, you know, you can learn a lot. And overall, you know, Scott, I really do wish you the best of luck. I'm kind of, I'm satisfied with where we are. How do you feel?

I say satisfied is a good word for it. I feel satisfied. Like I liked this experience a lot. You use the word a lot. Help me understand that. This will fuel me. This will help me a lot. The whole applying for a lot at once makes a lot more sense.

when I visualize it in like a different light, which is one thing I always kind of had to trouble with. Just like, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, I'd say it's, yeah, very, very satisfied. Good. I'm glad. So I think that one of the things I'm noticing about you is I don't think you have a whole lot of emotional expression, which I think has to do with some of your numbness.

So it's, you're saying a lot, but you look basically the same as when I first saw you. True. So it's hard for me to gauge what you're, response has been without words because usually I think in some ways I think you really are kind of emotionally like um pretty numb yeah like pretty like your your emotional like wavelength is actually pretty flat right so like your emotions have been like this um and and so it's useful i mean it's helpful for me to hear that this has been helpful and i you know i really hope it has been helpful you know

keep us posted on how you're doing and uh any questions before we wrap up for the day No, I think I'm pretty good. It was amazing. Thank you so much. You're very welcome, man. Good luck, dude. Cheers. Have a good on. Okay. So, emotions don't help you grind, wow. That's why you get rid of them, man. Who needs emotions when you're grinding, wow? So let me ask you guys a quick question. Did you all follow that meditation? I guess I should have, oh, yeah. So people are asking, did he have some amount of lexothymia? He had a ton of lexothymia. Okay. So yes, no, kind of. Okay. Let me just think. Okay, so let's just do a little bit of Nadi should be. Let's do some alternate nostril breathing. Okay, so I should have, you're a sociopath. I'm not sure that you're a sociopath. I think just because you have a lack of empathy or emotional numbness doesn't mean you're a sociopath. So not feeling things. That's a symptom. That's not a diagnosis, right? So a diagnosis.

diagnosis is sociopathy, but there are all kinds of other reasons why you may not have empathy. Burnout, alexothymia, all kinds of things. Okay. So, Nari Shudhi, or Nari Shodana. So this is alternate nostril breathing. So we'll do this again. So I want you guys to do this. Okay. Actually, I, there's a good question here, so I'm going to expand on it a little bit. So someone asks, can you expand on the alcoholic parents and gaming addiction thing? Yeah, so like, so I, starting in 2015, I started working with gamers, right? So that was about five years ago now. One of the most surprising things that I discovered was that like about 30% of the

gamers that I've worked with over maybe like 200 or 300 or 400 gamers. That sounds kind of high. Probably lower than that. But of the ones that I worked with individually, which was maybe like 100 or 200, I'd say like a third of them had actually alcoholic parents or one parent who was alcoholic. And I was just very, very surprised because I had always thought of gaming addiction as like an individual dopamine kind of thing. Like, you know, it's about dopamine in your brain and stuff like that.

It really has nothing to do with, you know, having alcoholic parents. So there are two or three hypotheses. One is that, you know, if you're prone to addiction in your brain, whether it be alcohol or another substance, maybe the biological vulnerability to alcohol in some way translates to a biological vulnerability to video game addiction. Some people say they have a quote-unquote addictive personality. I don't really quite buy that sort of sense, but I think it's complicated. So one option is that there's a biological predisposition that is genetically inherited to be addicted from one substance to be addicted to another substance. Now, I don't really hold too much to that theory because

what we do know from genetic inheritance is that, like, being addicted to alcoholics, so if you have a predisposition for alcoholism, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get addicted to heroin. So, like, addiction is substance-specific. So you have alcoholism that runs in families, and you have, like, opiate addiction that runs in families, and that people also have a quote-unquote drug of choice. So the question is, why do people have a drug of choice? Like, biologically, why is it that some people get addicted to alcohol and some people get addicted to opiates and some people get addicted to marijuana some people get addicted to meth like why do people get addicted to different things why aren't substances like just more or less addictive

you know and so the individuality it turns out is born in in neuroscience so our are our euphoria like what which substance creates a sense of euphoria in our brain is actually like dependent on our biology. So some people, like our brain sort of lights up like a Christmas tree, some people with alcohol, some people with opiates, some people with marijuana, some people with methamphetamine, some people with video games, some people with other things. So there is a biological component, but that they seem to be specific to the substance. So what I believe, so that is kind of like a counterargument to like a genetic predisposition from alcohol to video game addiction. What I think makes a lot more sense, there may be some component. In fact, there probably is.

But what I think is a lot more accurate is when I talk to people, they actually have this pattern quite commonly, which is that they just fundamentally are, like, not confident in the person that they are. And you can kind of like, with many people, I'll sort of dig into things like bullying and stuff like that. But like, I mean, everyone fucking gets bullied. Come on. Like, most people get bullied. And not everyone turns into a video game addict, or at least not of this severity. So the question is, like, why do you turn into a video game addict? in my sense is that you know the

you need a bigger tank for like a bigger boss and the bigger your pit is the more planks that you need to cover it and so people who get very very addicted to video games have actually like a bigger pit or they're dealing with like more and more

uncertainty and if you think about it what does a what does a video game give you it gives you certainty like wow is why do fucking people why do people play wow over and over and over and over again. It's because it's the same damn thing every single time. There's no uncertainty. So you can be confident in what happens with wow. That's the way the game is designed. It's like, you can be confident in what happens. And so I think that this issue of lack of confidence about how the way the world works is very common with gamers. And so uncertainty becomes very, very,

like, damaging to them. And what do I mean by that? There are a lot of people, who, like, let me just give you an example of how uncertainty is completely unacceptable for gamers. If there's, gamers will avoid doing anything unless they're sure it's going to help them. Just think about this for a second. I'm not going to apply to a fucking job unless I know I'm going to get it. I'm not going to apply to school unless I know I'm going to get in. I'm not going to ask someone out unless I know they say yes. So just think about that. You have an aversion and most people are not like that, right? Like most people basically understand that not everything is going to work out for you.

So the question is why are gamers so averse to uncertainty? And I think it's because some of them grow up in an environment where like there's very little order. And so you learn how to like get really scared of like disorder and you start gravitating towards like order any place that you can find it. And what a video game really gives you is like order because in a game you know what you're going to get. and the thing that paralyzes gamers so much from moving forward is a lack a sense of uncertainty about what the outcome is. So they would rather see this is what happens every time is this working okay. So every time I say something profound either Discord cuts out or Twitch stops out or Twitch stops streaming or I knock out. Yeah. So let me explain something to you. Gamers would rather

how can I say this they would they would rather spend they would rather waste all of their hours how can I say this you're completely fine wasting time playing video games with a zero percent chance of success you'd rather do that than have a 50 percent chance of success

and waste time doing something that like may not work out right like gamers are more comfortable with a zero percent chance of success than they are with like a 50% chance of success. It's fucking weird. It's bizarre. You would rather waste your time playing video games all day long rather than waste your time on an application that may not work out.

You would rather give yourself a 0% chance of success and waste your life rather than do something that may lead to success, but you're not going to choose that. You fucking hate it. It's bizarre. You'd think that human beings. would choose the thing that leads to the greatest probabilistic chance of success, which is that apply to a lot of things. But bizarrely, that's not how we work. We're like, no, screw that. If there's

a chance it's not going to work, I'd rather not do it at all, and I'm going to waste all my time over here instead. Give me a 100% chance for a zero success, as opposed to a 50% chance for 50% success. That's what I'm trying to say. It's a weird mathematical formula, but that's what I've observed, right? It's bizarre. And I don't know where exactly this comes from, but I think it has something to do fundamentally with the way that we're wired. And I think that has something fundamentally to do with the way that we're raised. So we're taught to be like very, very scared of disorder from a young age. And if you think about what confidence is, the definition of confidence is being able to face uncertainty, right? That's what confidence is. Gamers are not interested in

confidence, that you guys don't want confidence, which you want to guarantees. And we sometimes we conflate those two, right? We say that like a guarantee, like, no, guarantees and confidence are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The more guarantees you have, the less confident you need to be. And so like, this is really bizarre, but you guys actually don't want confidence. You don't look for confidence. You want a scenario where confidence is unnecessary. That's what you look for. And that's what paralyzes you. Because fundamentally, that's not possible newsflash. The world is full of uncertainty. But here comes fucking video games. And they come to your brain and they're like, hey, brain, you guys don't need to deal with uncertainty.

You can get progress and accomplishment if you do this. You can come to me and you can play every single day. And you can get progress and accomplishment and pride in a sense of growth without dealing with any of that uncertainty. and then your brain is like, well, fuck, I'm not going to deal with uncertainty. Like, screw that. Let me get everything that I need with a guarantee. Like, I'll take the guarantee over the uncertainty any day of the week. And that's what I think is going on.

So I think that what you guys really need to do is understand that, like, life, if you want to move forward in life, which you should really do is embrace uncertainty. That uncertainty is like, is how you get, you move forward. So I think a lot of my success has been through actually choosing the uncertain path over the certain path. It's walking away from opportunities, not taking them. So when I have like a set job to, you know, be a clinician at Harvard Medical School and they're going to give me that job, and it's going to be a great job.

And then you walk away. And if I hadn't walked away from that job, I mean, I'm still clinical faculty, so I still teach. But if I hadn't walked away from the job, Healthy Gamer would, wouldn't exist today because I wouldn't have had time, because I would have been an employee with a boss. So walking away from great opportunities and facing uncertainty, I think is a wonderful way to move forward in life. But you've got to understand that like it's going to be a shit show. Like I didn't know that Healthy Game was going to happen. Right? So like you're not going to know. And this is the other crazy thing is that you guys try to create so many expectations about what

you want your life to be, that you guys don't even grasp that your brain does not even know what you're capable of. Think about that for a second. When you think about what your future can hold, you are such a poor judge for like what you're capable of because you have so little experience in the real world. And this is the big problem is you guys all aim way too low. Like I'm telling you guys. I will take a 26-year-old who has never had a job in his life, and I will drop him in an MIT startup, and he will do phenomenal with no work experience. He'll just learn. He'll go on Wiki. And like, he'll go on Wikipedia, and he'll, like, learn how to code, and he'll learn how to problem solve, and he'll learn data and statistics. Because that's what you guys do, right?

Like, if you look at Scott, Scott plays a wow for 20 hours a day. He knows the game in and out. and like if you guys get challenged and you stop caring about like guarantees of success and you can just abandon all that crap and this is what I was telling Scott is like in terms of the dirty water and the clean water you guys are so concerned about success and failure you guys are neither of those things.

You're the rag. If you just abandon the idea of success and failure and you just do something, the results have like almost always been amazing. I haven't been, I've been, I mean, people haven't, some people haven't done well. But I haven't been disappointed in them, even if they don't do well. So anyway, it is difficult to find something you actually enjoy doing, though. Yes, I completely agree.

It is difficult to find something that you actually enjoy. The problem is that most people don't, their search for things that they enjoy happens up here instead of with their hands. You guys, when you think about, when you find, you don't find what you enjoy, you think about what you may enjoy. And you let that control whether you act. Think about it for a second. Where do you make the determination about what you are going to enjoy? Do you make it up here or do you make it in the outside world? And how good of a judge is this depending on what you're going to enjoy?

Think about it, right? So this is exactly what I'm saying. You guys, in terms of the solution space that you create for yourself, it is a solution space that you create for yourself, it is so narrow because you guys have no idea what you enjoy. You have no clue because you guys don't do anything. You live in here. And that's not just a bad, I mean, like in this case it's a bad thing. But this is what I'm telling you guys.

You guys have spent so much time living in here that like we live in a world where like this working really well is actually the most important part of your success in the real world. This. And so if you actually find yourself in a job that you enjoy, this shit is leveled up so much that you guys are going to do an amazing job because you've leveled this up. The problem is this can't fix everything. So you just need to level up your like IRL skills a little bit

and then unleash... That's really the best word that I can think of. I feel like I'm unleashing gamers into like certain areas. It's like they're like a fucking tornado and they just own it. One last story I'll share with you guys, okay? I was taking a class called Value-Based Healthcare at Harvard Business School. So this is a class where there were a hundred or so physicians throughout the Harvard Medical School training program who took a class.

So Harvard, Andy, Harvard, Andy, Harvard, Andy. And I'm using this phrase for a reason, right, at HBS. So these are a bunch of fucking try-hards who are very accomplished. And we had an assignment. The assignment was optimize patient flow through a lot. a urology clinic. So urology is is like the subspecialty of medicine that deals with the genital tract and also like, yeah, the urogenital tract, sorry, not general tract, but urogenital. So it's like urine stuff, like bladder, urethra, all that kind of stuff. They also deal with like

erectile dysfunction and stuff like that. And so like they have some procedures, right? So sometimes they have to like inject dyes and take x-rays and stuff like that. So they have patients that come to urology clinic, and it's like kind of complicated. It's not like psychiatry where you come and you just talk to someone and then you leave. You have to like get prepped by a nurse. The doctor has to do a procedure. Some people need procedures. Some people don't need procedures. Some people don't need prep. Some people don't need prep. So it's like a complicated situation where you don't know what the patient's needs are. So you don't know how many nurses do you need? How many rooms do you need? How many rooms with equipment do you need? How many like offices do you need for just consultations where you talk

about medications? It's kind of complicated. So our task was to optimize flow through a urology clinic. So I log on to Discord and I turn to a couple of bodies of mine who are all neat. I'm like hey guys, I have this task like do you guys want to help me try to figure this out? I send them the case.

It's like a case study. So they work on the case and they come back with solutions. They're like, oh, you should do this, this and this. This is what I think you should. Like, great. Next day I go to class or next week, I go to class. And then you know, so the professor's like, so what do you guys think you should do to optimize flow? And then

I have my plagiarized answers from my buddies on Discord, I raise my hand and I say, I think we should do this, this, and this. Press is like, fantastic. Those are all wonderful ideas. Like, I'm telling you guys, crazy. Right? So what gamers are good at is if you give you, if you give them a system and you tell them to optimize a system, they're good at that. Because think about what you've changed, what you've trained yourself to do. You optimize Wow. You optimize Fortnite. You optimize League of Legends. You optimize Dota. You optimize Final Fantasy tactics. You optimize all. kinds of stuff. You guys are great at optimizing. And all you have to do is just like, like, go, like, do you guys realize, like, how bad people are optimizing things in the real world? Like, people do stupid stuff all the time. Like, it's just mind-numbingly dumb. And it feels mind-numbingly dumb to me because I'm an optimizer. Like, y'all, you guys know what min-maxing and D&D is? Like,

we're good at min-maxing. You guys are good at min-maxing. You're going to be good at, like, other stuff in the real world, too. You just need the social skills, and you need to, like, apply for the job to where people don't think you're an asshole when you tell them that you're doing something dumb. And you can actually help a lot of people because most people don't think like we do. So games train us to think in terms of efficiency. Most people do one side quest at a time. They actually don't batch their side quests and do like a circuit of Stranglethorn Vale. It's not how they live life. Right? And you have like whole degrees and stuff that are devoted to like fixing operations and like streamlining operations and stuff like that. And I'm not saying that you guys are as good as formal

education, but you'd be surprised. So I took a guy that I was working with, and hopefully he's not watching. But I told him that I wanted to do economic analysis on e-sports. So I told them that I want to publish a paper about which e-sports are the most lucrative and which esports are the hardest to break into. Guys, he's never done anything like this before. I show him some data and I'm like, hey, like, this is how, like, do you know how to use Excel? He's like sort of. And I'm like, okay, so this is what you do, and this is how you run the analysis. Here's the analysis for one sport. I want you to take this and do nine other esports. He's like, okay, and sure enough, he does a great job. So don't underestimate what you're capable of. I mean, you guys do, but that's just because you just don't, you don't.

I mean, of course you're going to underestimate what you're capable of because you have no experience, so your estimation is going to suck. So get yourself out there, try something. and just try something. You'll be amazed at what you're capable of. You just fucking try. And the other thing is that, like, Scott's applying for one job every two weeks. Like, that's not how you get a job.

You've got to apply for, like, 100 jobs over the course of three months. That's how you get a job. And then the other problem is, like, you guys are applying for one job every two weeks. So, like, the likelihood that you're going to get a job that you enjoy is going to be low

because you only have one option. So you guys are concerned. I say you guys. I mean, this sounds like a fucking boomer talking to you. So just think about this for a second. A lot of gamers feel like they need to find a job. You guys don't need to find a job. Finding a job is dumb.

I don't think you should find a job. I think you should find five jobs, and then I think you should pick the best one. But that's not the way that you think, and that's not the way that you act. You guys are so concerned about finding a job that you doom yourself to finding a shitty one. You should get five jobs.

You should increase the number of places you apply by 100. and then you should be selective about what you want. You guys think that life is not giving you anything, so you're willing to take the table scraps from your shitty efforts, and instead, like, put forth some effort and then get something that you enjoy doing. It's actually doable. It's not that crazy, but that's just not how we think.

Like, apply for weight. Like, do you guys get this? Your problem is not you need a job. Your problem is, like, you should get, like, 30 offers of acceptance. And then the other problem that you guys make is when you get a job, what do you stop doing? You stop applying. That's dumb. That's just so dumb.

Why would you stop applying for jobs just because you have one? You're completely missing the point. You don't know what you're going to like two weeks from now. Sorry. I mean, I'm not, like, I'm the same, I was the same way. So this is the way that I think now. It's like just pause and think about this, right? So like, don't accept.

How can I say this? Don't accept the walkthrough that the boomer generation has given you. Create your own walkthrough. Because the walkthrough from the boomer generation, which is they say, hey, kid, you don't have a job, you need a job. That walkthrough doesn't work for us. That's why the world is like,

that's why everything is shit. Because the boomers gave us a walkthrough, and they're like, this is how you be successful in life. That walkthrough doesn't work anymore. We've got to come up with our own solutions. and our own solutions are going to be different and we don't have to work hard like their walkthrough is like work hard

and you'll be successful in life that's a dumb that's a dumb walkthrough don't do that I'm lazy you guys are lazy that's fine like the solution is not

apply for one job get one job and then work your ass up to a management position even though you don't like it what I'm saying is front load your work so you can be a lazy asshole down the road find the job in IT

where your bosses don't understand what you do. Where they don't understand that you can write a script to do your job for you and you can sit there in the back and just like run your script to automate things. Like people don't understand that you can run scripts to do things. They think that like stuff has to be done manually. Like data entry that gets done manually. Right? And then like the cool thing about that is once you realize like I want you guys to try to optimize and maximize your laziness. All you guys. sorry for saying all you guys.

All you guys are like, oh, I'm so lazy. I'm so undisciplined. Like, yeah. So don't try to change. Don't try to be something that you're not. This is where the Eastern philosophy. Oh, Eastern philosophy. Be what you are.

Oh. Be present. Accept who you are. Oh. Enlightenment. Yoga. Budda. Oh.

Oh. Be where you are. You guys need to really listen to that for a second. It's not for yoga hippies. It's for you. What that means is be lazy. Be lazy. Try to be the laziest person that you can.

But make it work for you. Don't try to be, don't do the boomer walk through. Don't do the boomer walk through. Don't work hard. That's not the way you become successful. The way you become successful is by adding value, not adding effort. Think about this for a second, okay? What is value?

How do we define value? Does anybody know? What is the mathematical definition? of value. How do you define value? No. Incorrect. Value equals value. Incorrect. Isn't value in effort the same? Absolutely incorrect. Value is the result? It is. It's on one side of the equal sign. What is on the other side of the equal sign? Work divided by time? Incorrect. Output minus input? Sort of. Value equals time? No. No. See, this is the basic. Yeah, so one, I see a couple of people get it.

Effort over time. Sort of. You guys are getting closer. I'll tell you. So value equals yield divided by effort. Right? High value things give you a lot of stuff for a little investment. That's the definition of value.

So like if we think about like, oh, a high value pair of shoes gives me a lot of walked miles divided by the cost of the shoes. Just think about that for a second. Value, so high value in health care. So there's like this value-based healthcare delivery course that I was telling you guys about. What is, value in health care is like amount of sickness improved divided by cost of delivering care. Do you guys get that? So it's like yield divided by cost. And so if you guys want to have high value, what that means is that your effort can be low.

That's the goal. So if you guys are lazy, that's perfectly acceptable. Optimize that. In fact, all of health care in the U.S. right now is trying to become lazier. They're trying to reduce the cost or the effort that you put in and get more out of the clinical outcomes that you receive. Does that make sense? So be lazy.

Just figure out how to make laziness work. Don't try to not be lazy. Dumb. Sorry for calling you guys dumb, but it is dumb. It's like, dumb. I was dumb. I'm still dumb, probably. Like 10 years from now, I'm going to be saying something else about how stupid I was before. I was like, oh, I was so dumb.

Like, I was telling people to be lazy. Like, how fucking dumb is that? So grow. Fine. Let's say grow. So I encourage you guys to challenge yourself about thinking about, like, how can you be as lazy as possible? This is your homework for today. Okay?

And think about how many jobs do you need to apply to to maximize your laziness? Think about that. The more jobs do you apply to, does that? that increase your capacity to be lazy over the next year or decrease the capacity to be lazy over the next year. Right? So think about it. Answer is zero. Fine. Every zero values infinity. Absolutely. Just be homeless. No, don't just be homeless. That's dumb. I mean, if you are homeless, that's unfortunate. I'm not calling you stupid. But what I'm saying is that like, just think, think a little bit about how you're living your life and think about if you can live it differently. because I still maintain that most of change in life, I know this sounds crazy, is not through effort.

I mean, it does require effort, but it's not through work. So I think the effort is actually up here. I think the effort is an increase in intentionality. So I sketched out like, anyway, I'm going to get off on another chin, I got to stop. So I'm sorry that we don't have time for meditation. But I want you guys to just think about what we've talked about today and try to think about how to apply it to your own life. like actually stop and reflect on it. Think about how can you insert these principles into your own life

and whether they apply to you or not. And one of the biggest, biggest lessons that I learned is that I know that we're all about procrastinating and not like pushing back things. But generally speaking, if you really want to be lazy in life, the solution is to front load your work for an optimal like setup down the road. That's really what it's about. right so all these people who like bought alterac valley like they're they're they're doing it right

like you can you don't think that you can bought real life like you can absolutely bought real life absolutely do things that increase your efficiency and like make it like a lot of people are working for stuff and you can just automate it right so like there's i mean we've automated a lot of stuff recently we're trying to create workflows and you try to think about it that balance seems very hard to find you're very right it is very hard to find So, oh, I forgot for a second. If it's hard to do, you guys are just not going to do it, right? Hard and impossible can be the same to a gamer.

I'll leave you guys with that thought. And take care of guys. So we're going to try to focus on this webinar a couple of things. So, by the way, a lot of this stuff, for those of you who have supported us, we are very, very grateful. So we're going to try to turn some of that into a webinar. And, yeah, I think right. now, I don't know exactly how the cost structure is going to work. I think we're going to try

to make it free. Hopefully I don't shoot myself in the foot for that. We're going to see if there's some way that we can swing a suggested donation or maybe have people just support us through Patreon or something like that. We really don't want to charge for it. We may have to. And if we do charge for it, it's going to be like super cheap. But it's just, we're going to have to figure out what our investment is and things like that. But I think we're getting a lot of support through streams. So I'm really, really grateful for that. and our hope is to try to build this content. Definitely what's coming out is YouTube videos on a lot of this stuff. So I have, I'll just share with you one guy, one thing that I'm thinking about. Oh yeah. So here's,

I want to do a video about this. What's the difference between half-assing something and doing something good enough? And what's the difference between waste and sacrifice? Right. So that's something that we're doing a video about. Does that make sense? I think about that for a second. Lots of answers, lots and lots of answers. So what's the difference between half-assing something and doing something good enough? And what's the difference between waste and sacrifice? Right? So think about this stuff. And then the next question is, is it important to understand what the difference between these two things are?

That's even a more important question. So these questions that I ask, like, what's the value of me like asking this stuff? What do you think? Do you think it'll change? I mean, I hope that it'll change your life. And I hope it'll change your life because you'll understand the difference between those two things.

And hopefully you'll do one instead of the other. And so my life has been changed through like answering questions like this. Like I really want you all to understand this. My life has not been changed through working harder. It's been changed through like understanding concepts and systems. And that's like a no-brainer, right? Like if you guys see, you know, if you see like speed runs, like someone who does a speed run

doesn't work harder than someone who plays the game at a slow pace. What's the difference between a speed run and like a noob who plays the game? In fact, the noob exerts a lot more effort, right? Like, what exactly? Proficiency, optimization,

knowledge. That is the difference. And the funny thing is that the speed runner actually beats the game and a fraction of the time is the noob. And so just think about that. Knowledge is sufficient to actually change your life for the better. Absolutely. You cannot teach experience.

I completely agree. But I can ask you guys questions and you can reflect on them and then you can gain understanding. I can't teach understanding either. I can give you information. And that's part of the reason that what I try to do is ask questions and make statements that are provocative from a thinking perspective. Because my goal here is not to teach you. My goal here is to make you think. because I can give you guys all the answers, and it's not going to change you.

Like, the goal is for you to think, because that also has to do with behavioral change and how the brain works and stuff like that. Right? I'm not asking you guys to memorize multiplication tables. I'm asking you guys to learn how to multiply. And I can demonstrate multiplication tables. I cannot teach you how to multiply. Multiplication is something you have to learn and understand on your own. Do you guys get that?

I can't transmit the knowledge of multiplication to you as a concept. That's the goal. Anyway, thank you guys very much. We'll see you all on Wednesday.