HealthyGamerGG - Horror Stories of Tinder

Episode Date: December 25, 2022

Horror Stories of Tinder Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My name is Matt. Okay. Pleasure to meet you. And can you tell us a little bit about what online dating is like for you? You know, when I first started, you know, I had kind of just too much time to really think about, or like, I guess, overthink about a lot of things in life. And I also had very low self-esteem, to be honest. So, yeah, I don't know.

I just kind of spent six months going from like one dating app to the next, you know, trying different things. And, you know, how it kind of started going, though, is, you know, I would really try to kind of craft these, like, perfect messages, like these perfect openers, you know, which is always a very big struggle with dating apps. It's like trying to figure out how you want to present yourself at first. But, you know, for me, yeah, it was, I was very much overthinking it. And, you know, I was also trying to kind of figure out, like, what parts of my personality to hide, which was not good, obviously. And, you know, I realized that in retrospect. But I think when you're first getting started with that, you know, you get a lot of rejection and you're trying to figure out why

and you're, like, trying to look for those reasons and like, okay, what do I need to fix for next time, you know, so I don't get rejected. And then how it kind of turned out, though, is, you know, I would get to the first date, and I would still try to kind of maintain that mask, you know, or like that kind of character I created, you know, over text, this like, you know, kind of refined version, I guess. And so, you know, I would try to come off as, like, very, like, funny and knowledgeable and, like, charismatic and, you know, all these things. And, like, I was so nervous about, like, letting the conversation die down.

and, you know, all these things. And, like, you know, it really became kind of a problem, though, because, you know, I would never risk, like, actually flirting with the person, you know, like, I would, you know, I wouldn't tell jokes, you know, because I was so afraid they might not land or, like, I might offend them or, like, something like that. It's like, you know, I was never actually flirting or anything. And, you know, it was just kind of disastrous, you know,

and I did that, uh, about six times. times. I had like six first dates and yeah, it was very difficult. So yeah. So I mean, you're, you almost sound like you're speaking in the past tense. So are you flirting with people on dates now? Um, so I guess to run through the story really quickly. So after you know, a lot of those dates, I did, you know, finally meet somebody, um, that like I had a lot more. Oh, actually, sorry, let me back up really quick. So, You know, after like six months of doing this, I mean, I was just exhausted. I was so exhausted at like trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, like trying to.

Can I jump in with a couple questions actually? Oh, yeah. So when you say doing this, what does doing this consist of? Can you help me understand like what was your like what would like if I was like following you around? Like what would I see on a weekly basis or daily basis? I would say so like work was had a big like lull at the time so I just had loads of free time and you know I spent it you know doing some hobbies but like a lot of it was just you know going from like you know I'd probably spend 30 minutes an hour a day just like hopping from one dating app to the next like

you know going through my matches like trying to message people um and again just like really trying to observe like, okay, like, what am I doing right? Like, what am I doing wrong? You know, why isn't this working? Why am I getting rejected? And like, I never really took the time to think about like, and, you know, maybe it's just a wrong match. Well, so, so, and what kind of answers would you come up with in your head when you were asked yourself, like, what am I doing wrong? Why am I getting rejected? What, what conclusions did you come to? I think part of it was physical appearance. I was pretty, I mean, again, I was coming from a place of very low self-esteem and everything, but as well as just like not being able to, I think, like, effectively communicate with people.

And what were you trying to do in communication? That's a good question. I mean, just, I mean, I think at the time I was kind of just desperate and like looking for really any kind of, you know, connection, really. like I was really kind of just looking for whatever I could get and yeah. Okay, so it looked like you were feeling desperate. And then you also mentioned you would try to like craft to the perfect opener. Mm-hmm.

Right? So like thinking about and what would you, what kind of conclusions did you kind of originally come to? I recognize that you may have learned differently. But when you were trying, what did you think were the components of an perfect opener? I would have to say like it couldn't be. lazy. Like I had to express like interest. It had to show that like, oh, I'm funny and like, you know, interesting. And like, you know, I read your bio. So like I'm not just, you know, messaging like 20 different people and like, you know, I was trying to express like kind of like a

distinct interest for, you know, this one person. Okay. So you would like do like you would go through the bio and you'd like craft this message that had to be specific, it sounds like. And then you said tried to be funny. So can you give me an example of like how that would what that looks like. That's a good. Okay. If not, that's okay. Yeah, that's totally fine. I mean, I realized that it, you know, this was going on for months for like half an hour a day. But, um, so trying to be funny, which almost never works. Right. You know, you can be funny or not be funny, but trying almost never works. And then, and so then, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You were sort of, um, and then you also mentioned that you went on six first dates. Can you tell us a little bit about what those were like?

I mean, yeah. I mean, it was, you know, obviously very nerve-wracking because you're just meeting this totally random person that you've, you know, you've never been in a room with them. So it's like you very much have like their kind of online version, you know, that you've been communicating with so far. So, you know, oftentimes you get to the, you know, like wherever you guys are meeting or, you know, wherever I'm meeting and you know, you see them and you're like, oh, well, they're a bit different than I was expecting, but like, you know, that could be a good or bad thing. And yeah, I mean, half the time, it really just kind of fell apart, you know, to be honest. What does falling apart look like?

Like, just, I mean, like, right now I feel like I'm kind of stumbling through this conversation. And it's like that to like, you know, a higher degree. like even, you know, significantly worse. So just a lot of stumbling, you know, again, like just no flirting, like whatsoever, like no actual flirting, like just playing everything like super, super, super, super safe, you know, like that kind of thing, if that makes sense. It sort of makes sense. I didn't get the impression you were stumbling through this conversation, though.

I thought you've given me good answers to every question that I've asked, except for one, which is can you give me an example of an opening statement, which is like, I totally understand. Like you haven't memorized them, right, from like six months ago. So I think it's a reasonable thing to not be able to come up with. Yeah, I exactly. I have no idea what it was saying back then. But yeah, no, it was, you know, it was a lot of stumbling and, you know,

just playing things like too safe and, you know, trying to put off, like, trying to maintain this mask in like such a nerve-wracking situation that like I just couldn't. And like, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's possible. Maybe they didn't see it that way, but. Can you tell me a little bit about, this is very enlightening for me, Matt. So first of all, I want to say thank you. I recognize that, you know, you mentioned yourself.

Like, this is pure gold from my standpoint. Is it okay if I ask you a couple other questions? Oh, please, yeah. So what, like, can you help me understand what was the mask that you were trying to put on? Like, what were you trying to be during those dates that felt like it was really hard to accomplish? I guess if I were to put it as simply as I could, I was trying to make myself into as close as I could get to like, I don't know, like, like Hollywood, you know, like very stereotypical, like masculine, you know, man, like, again, like very charismatic, like, stands up straight, like can, you know. Tell me about all the other things. Yeah, very interesting person.

Tell me about all the other things that you can, like, what is, tell me about the Hollywood man. I love that. I love that image. What else does a Hollywood man do? I would say they can crack, you know, perfect jokes, you know, whenever there's an opportunity. I would say, you know, they're chivalrous and, you know, everything like that. They don't stumble on words. They don't, you know, they're very, very effective communicators.

And, yeah. I mean, just again, like very charismatic, very, you know, all of those kind of stereotypical images that, you know, things that in many ways I am not. Or, you know, if I am, it just takes me a while to get to that, you know, with somebody. So what is? You know, like I take a while to warm up. Totally understand, dude. So tell me what, what does being charismatic look like? I think, you know, I think a lot of it really does just kind of center around speech, you know, and how effectively you can communicate.

and like, you know, it's kind of the difference between, you know, you're in the shower and, like, thoughts are just flowing so easily and like, you know, like that version of yourself versus when you actually get out of the world and you're super nervous and like, you know, it's a big difference. Or like if you're in like an argument with somebody, you know, it's like that kind of separation, I would say. Makes perfect sense. Yeah. So, like, like, you know, I like, you know, I, like, you know, I, like, I like, I like, I like, I, I, like, I, like, I, I, love the example of shower thoughts, right? Because everything makes so much sense in the shower. Did you ever consider asking someone out on a first date and shower together so that you could be your perfect self? No, that's a great, that is a great idea, though. I totally wish I thought of that, you know, maybe next time. Because I'm still looking for a next date.

Anyway, so thank you so much, Matt. I thought that was incredibly, incredibly helpful in terms of illustrating like what the experience of going through this dating stuff is like, right? So you're like trying really hard. And then these charismatic Hollywood types are also like natural, right? That's a big part of it. Yeah. They don't stumble through their words. The words come out clearly.

They're relaxed. They're confident. But the harder that you are, you try to do those things, like the less of the Hollywood man you become. Right. Exactly. After doing that for about six months, I was just absolutely exhausted. You know, it's very emotionally kind of draining to do this and continually get rejected and then be like, and then kind of beat yourself up.

You're like, oh, my God, like, I wasn't the Hollywood man this time. Like, I need to do it next time. And like, after a while, like, you just can't, you just can't keep doing it. So, I mean, you know, I was about to delete all the apps. Honestly, I was just about to give up. I was like, I'll just find somebody eventually in real life, hopefully. Maybe not. but um but anyway so you know i match um with my now ex and you know the only thing on her profile

is like mentioning oh i like play league of legends and i'm like oh okay cool and like so the big change for me i guess was you know in my opening message i was just like oh cool like you know what champ do you play you know like i play league too and like she tells me and like it it's pretty much just you know easy from there and you know, she actually asked me out on a first date and like we get there and, you know, it just, it's like I finally found somebody that I could communicate easily with, you know? And, you know, the whole conversation went great. I remember coming home and like texting a friend on like, I don't know if we're going to end up dating, but like we're definitely going to be like lifelong friends, you know, so it was, you know, it was amazing. But. Okay, so I don't want to kind of diverge from the kind of main topics too much, but essentially, you know, we had to break it off for reasons neither of us really wanted, you know, like probably five months ago now. And, you know, we kind of dragged things out, had some communication issues. The whole thing was, you know, as I kind of would put it, kind of world shattering, to be honest.

You know, like I really had kind of a big breakdown of, I would have to say, like, my personality, you know, to be honest. Like, I really kind of lost track of like who I am and, you know, the things I find importance. And, you know, the word, I don't know the exact definition or anything, but the word codependency does come to mind. And like, I do think there were some issues with, you know, how I think I think I, I was using her to cope with a lot of my own kind of life problems and like as a distraction. And I guess I should say that too. Like I think as a whole, a lot of this online dating in my experience, you know, was a distraction from actually getting my life together. Wow.

So once I was, once we kind of broke up, I was kind of plunged back into it and, you know, kind of left scrambling. And like I didn't really feel like I had people to. you know, go to, you know, enough. Even though that wasn't true, I have a great friend group, but, you know, I felt very alone. Sure. You know, I didn't have that person. I could just text in the middle of the night saying, like, hey, I'm feeling kind of

depressed and, you know, she would, like, talk to me about it, you know. So, yeah. And then, you know, now I'm kind of at a place where I am back to online dating, but, you know, I've far reduced the number of apps that I'm using. You know, I've realized that it's good to just kind of slow burn in my experience. Okay. Like not put too much attention to it. And, you know, I've also realized it's best to, you know, not force connections,

to not take things too personally, to be too impatient, you know, to dump all my heart into it, like just pour my heart into, you know, this one thing that I want. And also just having like kind of an appreciation for, you know, just forming general connections with women. Like it doesn't need to be like, oh, we're, you know, looking to get married and like there's all the pressure of that. Like sometimes it's best to just kind of be like, hey, like, what's up? You know, like, you want to chat for a while?

Like, what are you interested in? Like, just take it very slow, casual and easy. And yeah, and just kind of appreciate. that you know sometimes it just leads into a friendship maybe it just leads into like a nice little you know two-week conversation with somebody that you would would have never met before and you know like you can kind of just go your separate ways you know eventually so wow so i'm i'm hearing that you're really learning to just appreciate even the person for who they are and like even if it doesn't end up in a date like you can still have some this is the first time i've ever heard

this. That's kind of blowing my mind. That you can talk to someone on the internet on a dating app, and then that conversation in and of itself can have value and also be like sufficient. Exactly. That's wild. Yeah. And and and but I mean so so so so but it sounds like you're not like trying to optimize everything. Exactly. Yeah. So like now you know, I feel like, you know, my bio, like my dating bio is just very it feels a lot more like myself like I'm not trying to like I'm not trying to do the Hollywood man thing anymore like I'm just kind of like yeah you know like I like 3D printing and I like movies and I like cooking and you know just like I wanted to put like 3D printing on there before because I would have been like oh man girls find that too

nerdy you know stuff like that but it's like then you're cutting off you know those connections with, you know, maybe there's a girl out there that does like 3D printing, you know, and... And how awesome would that be? Yeah, so... Exactly. No, exactly. So, Matt, let me ask you kind of tough questions. So do you have a sense, though, whether, like, this is actually, like, do you think...

Is this working better, though, than being, like, paranoid and trying to be something perfect and, like, you know, crafting these, like, opening lines? Yeah. First of all, I think it's a lot better. for my mental health. Okay. Far, far better. But I also think that it just has a higher chance of finding meaningful connections.

And I would say I have found it to work better. Like, you know, I've been back on dating apps for, you know, a couple months now after the breakup. And like, I haven't been on any, like, actual first dates. Like, I have met, you know, a friend I made, but, you know, like, I haven't been on any first dates. like, I'm very kind of okay with that right now. You know, like, I, you know, I, I think if I continue to put off that, that image, you know, that Hollywood man thing, like, I could have probably found more first dates, but I don't think they would have led anywhere.

So it's like, what's the point? That's so interesting. It makes me really wonder about, you know, everyone, like, if the endpoint they're looking for is like going on the first date, which actually, I wonder if that sets them up for failure, in terms of building a relationship? I think so. I definitely think so. Interesting.

So it may be that there's a strategy that has fewer dates, but more relationships or more dates and potentially fewer relationships. Yeah, I think so. And I think a lot of it is just how how much you...

And oh my God, let me tell you too. I remember hearing people say like, oh, just be yourself. you know, when I was first starting to date. And like, that's such difficult advice to really, I guess, break down because it is true. And like, once you kind of learn that and like have been through it and kind of understand truly what that is and like what that means, then it's like, oh, yeah, like, I can do that now. But, you know, hearing that early on is, it is very difficult. So, so, yeah.

What would you say as hard? is that advice hard to implement? Like what have you learned now that was kind of hard to do before? I would have to say it's, you know, again, it really is just what kind of connections are you looking for? And like realizing also that, you know, you can't, you can't maintain, like, at least in, you know, my experience, I couldn't maintain that mask in such a high pressure situation. And like even if I could, that would be really, that's bad.

Like you're being dishonest, you know, to the other person about who you are and things. So I don't know, it's, to me, it feels very much like something. You just kind of have to get out there and experience it and kind of go through some trial and error. And, you know, eventually I think kind of the natural conclusion is that. But it's hard to reach until you've been through a lot of. of those experiences. Okay. Of course.

So I think there's there's a lot that you've kind of learned. Can I, um, did you share kind of what you were, uh, thinking about sharing today? Were there particular things that we didn't really talk about that you wanted to talk about? Um, yeah. I mean, I, I think that about covers it. I mean, you know, obviously I've learned, I've learned so much from this whole thing. To be honest, like I could trust me, like I could go on for days about all the things I've learn, but, you know, I think that about covers it.

Do you, do anything come to mind in terms of like, like picking one or two things that you really wish you had known when you started out? Oh, yeah. So another thing I would say is that it's important to try to understand how these, I think, these dating app algorithms kind of operate and understand that like when you first sign up to one, they, you know, tend to kind of. flood you with matches and like you know they basically promote your profile to a lot of people so you're like way more likely to get that and it kind of gets you hooked on it you know like at

first you're like oh my god like um you know this is amazing and then they just stop you know like after a few days or whatever they just stop you know and you know then they start you know giving you ads about like hey like if you sign up for our premium you know membership then you know will promote your profile again and like stuff like that. And, you know, I think it's, it's very important to understand that like, you probably didn't change anything. Like, it's just how these algorithms work. Like, it's not your, I don't know, maybe you change the photo, like one photo.

Like, it's probably not that it's like putting off everybody that sees it or whatever. And, you know, I hope that kind of makes sense. But yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It is important. So, Matt, let me just. see if I can try to like summarize what what I heard from you and then you you know let us know if we're missing stuff or so the first thing is that you were sort of in a in a little bit of a dark spot when you started dating and actually a quick question uh you said that you're you've

cut back on the apps that you use are there particular apps that you think are better than others absolutely yeah which which are the good ones um so in my experience really the standout is bumble Okay. And in that one, you know, the woman, you know, reaches out first. Okay. And I think it just kind of creates an environment of kind of safety for everybody. And it's just a little less pressure. And, you know, that one's really kind of my standout personally.

Okay. And which ones, is there one in particular that you think is like should be avoided at all costs? If the answer is no, you can say no. I'm just wondering. I mean, there are, but it would be kind of hard to think of what they all are. Okay. There's a lot. Let me say that.

There's a lot. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you find Bumble sort of creates a safe space and as, you know, maybe leads to a more natural communication. Yeah, I would say so. Okay.

So just to kind of recap, you know, your experience on dating websites has been, you know, or apps has been like so you finish school you are not really in the best headspace at the time you also had a lot of time so it sounded like you you took the dating thing like pretty seriously in terms of like a time investment maybe half an hour to an hour per day using many apps and then also like a lot of like optimization grinding thinking about it even maybe outside of the hour like you're thinking about it before and after and what should you say and things like that. And so it was almost like you were trying to figure out,

okay, this is a puzzle that needs to be solved. And if I spend enough time at it, and if I spend enough, like, it's like a numbers game and I got to grind and like optimize. And if I can, you know, say something that is specific about their profile is funny. And if I sort of try to like, I'm going to try to figure out how to live up to this Hollywood man kind of idea. And so you spent a lot of energy into that.

you know, you were you're trying to, as you put it, stand up straight, right? And crack the perfect joke at the right opportunity to be like kind of chivalrous, but like maybe not too chivalrous, like you don't want to be a nice guy, right? You're never like stumbling. You're a bit risque. You're like charismatic. Like people notice when you walk in the room. They notice when you open your mouth.

Like people are kind of looking at you and like appreciating you and respecting you and and all that kind of good stuff. But in trying to do all of that, it was incredibly nerve-wracking, incredibly, like, cognitively intense. And since you're, you're, like, trying to, it's almost like you're, I don't know how to say this,

but you're, like, hosting a server while you're trying to play a game, right? Where you've got this, like, server where there's, like, all these interactions going on that are not the real you, and it feels actually quite unnatural. Conversations become very, very forced. you're kind of stumbling a lot, a lot of like first dates because maybe you were like,

oh, look at me, I'm so handsome. But then when you show up, you end up kind of disappointing. And then that leads to like this sense of like, oh my God, like I'm a loser. I can't do it. I have to be more like Chadlike and I can't be Chad like. I'm Matt, unfortunately. And then you ended up, it sounds like what I'm going to say this, but what really turned things around for you is matching with a girl.

who plays lull. Yeah. And then when... Just at the right time, too, you know, when I've just kind of all about giving up. Yep. And so along came this girl

who plays League of Legends and allowed you to be a little bit more natural, allowed you to like, you know, shut down that server that you're hosting and really focus on playing the game. Y'all entered into a relationship which sounds like maybe y'all weren't

really ready to be in a relationship, even though you liked each other a lot and were a good match. which I think that's a good way of putting it. Which I think is also really instructive because you hear a lot of this stuff where people are like work on yourself, right? And then people get really confused because they're like, okay, if I work on myself, like how am I going to meet people? But I think as you kind of mentioned, like you weren't really in a place to engage in a relationship and what does that look like? I think sometimes that can look like using your partner to fit particular needs that you have that are not really.

relationship needs. So if I'm lonely and the only person I have in my life is my partner, like, is that a certain antidote to loneliness?

Sure, but they can't be my entire social circle because if I make them my entire social circle, it'll be smothering. Right. And so it sounds like y'all were just,

you look like you're about to say something. You want to chime in? Oh, no, I was just saying, no, I think you're nailing it, honestly. Yeah, and go ahead. Oh, and you know, a lot of these realizations, you know, did come, you know, afterwards as well. I all kind of add.

Yeah, of course. And so it sounds like y'all were really a little bit codependent and maybe both you all were neglecting other parts of your life. And I think, unfortunately, you can have the perfect match. But, you know, when people say love conquers all, like, sort of. but a love or a relationship, I don't think, can be a substitute for other parts of your life not going well. And so it sounds like y'all sort of amicably broke up? Yeah, yeah. I think we kind of realized, you know, it was more detrimental to the things we need to get done in life and, you know, taking care of ourselves.

And, yeah, how to break it off, unfortunately. How very mature of you, Matt? Thank you. And so then now what you've kind of learned is that, so first of all, it sounds like you're aware that you are worthy of love. Yes? Or still no? I'm getting there. I'm getting there.

Nice, honest answer, man. Yeah. So I think that's actually really healthy, right? So like what I'm hearing is that some of the self-esteem issues, some of the concerns still linger. But now, first of all, like, I love kind of where you are now. So you're focusing on particular apps as opposed to other. others. You're focusing on a slow burn, as you put it, to not be impatient. And also to like not take things personally, which I think is huge, which is that, you know, if someone doesn't respond to

you in a day or two, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. Because when you're trying to optimize, you're like, oh my God, if I said something else, could I control this person's behavior? Could I elicit more responses by changing the way that I communicate with them? and really just appreciating the people for who they are. And like even if things don't turn into a date, like that's okay. And better to sort of have an honest conversation where you kind of don't waste your time on dating. And that's really wild. Like, you know, because it's, it's really, it really sounds wild.

Yeah. But I mean, it sounds like you're also taking care of the other stuff in your life that really needs to be taken care of. yeah definitely you know after um you know very luckily i got into therapy like right as we were about to break up so you know i and you know it's it's funny too because i started therapy thinking you know really i think kind of a big reason for it was to handle the breakup but you know as it turns out i i wasn't ready for a lot of other things in my life like i you know had a lot of other things to work on and, you know, and I'm, yeah. Awesome, dude. Well, listen, Matt, I'm, I'm really optimistic for you. Like, you know, it sounds like you're approaching this in a really, like,

healthy way. Like, you've come away with some, like, good lessons and you're kind of working on yourself and really being a little bit more honest with the internet about who you are. And also, through the work that you're doing, offering up, like, a better version of Matt, because you tried the scoffed version and and you know you need a little bit of polish and like that's okay I think that that's not doesn't mean that you're you know like I think like working on your esteem in a very like reasonable and healthy way yeah yeah any I appreciate all that yeah I mean I appreciate I mean I thought you did such a good job of sharing your journey with us thank you any last thoughts or questions I don't really have I thought you were actually very

Huh? I was saying, I think that's about it. I also do have therapy starting in like literally like three minutes. Okay. Well, well, I do have to kind of get going. Well, perfect, dude. Perfect timing. All right.

Take care, buddy. Thank you. You too. Have a good one. Hello. Hello. Okay, let me just close the stream real quick. There it is.

There we go. What's your name, my friend? Oh, my name is Carlos. And can you tell us a little bit, Carlos, about what online dating has been like for you? It's not been great, honestly. So for context, I'm in my early 30s. Okay. I've never been in any kind of romantic relationship.

And I think I've been getting on enough online dating for like since Tinder was around, maybe the first years. So, let's say, like, how many years is that? Like nine years, so to speak, maybe. Okay. And I tried a few dating apps. Did you say you haven't been in a relationship? I've never been. Okay.

Okay. Up to now, yeah. Okay. Yeah, keep going, please. So, yeah, I tried a few apps like Dinder Blancel. Humble, Match.com, you name it. And I've never had, like, actual success in any of the applications. But I think when things started getting maybe, like, complicated or I started developing

an unhealthy relationship with the application was probably in the last four years. When I got on this cycle in which I felt lonely, downloaded it. Tinder, try to do some swipes and without a lot of success. And after that, it eventually gets to me this feeling of in-adiquacy that I won't ever be able to make things work. So I get very depressed to say a word and I get up the application. And I stay up the application for a few months and then the loneliness or boredom kind of kicks in again and I get on the applications again and the cycle repeats and that probably lasted for about three, four years and interestingly enough, what broke the cycle was when I actually made a connection with a girl and she was very much into me and she pushed really hard to make things work and that made me panic a little bit and I ended up. like pushing her away.

So that kind of made me realize that I was probably not ready for a relationship on one hand and on the other that I was using the application these applications to kind of reinforce this idea that I was not good enough for a relationship, so to speak. So that's, I kind of realized this and I didn't really.

decided not to go again on the applications. I've been, I think, of them for like a year after this interaction. And I recently deleted my profiles maybe a couple of weeks ago because I kind of got in a relationship. So I didn't want those profiles to cause an issue. So I deleted them. Wait, so this was not the person that you pushed away? No, she was not. And that experience made me feel bad because this girl was very clear with what she wanted, and she was very assertive,

and she gave a doubt from her to make things work. And I wasn't able to, like, open up to her and tell her that I wasn't really that much into it. So at some point, she told me, like, the things were not working for her. that she wanted to break it up, so to speak. Wait, so I'm a little bit confused.

So it sounded like after you went off, oh, sorry, you started dating someone and then you uninstalled the apps? Yeah, that was recently. And are you still dating that person? I don't know. Okay. It's rough at the moment, yeah. It's rough at the moment.

But is that someone that you met on the apps? No, no. So just to clarify, this girl that I was talking about that I met in the app that was like one year ago. Yeah, right. Because it seems like two different people. So I'm just trying to. Yeah, yeah. It's two different people.

And the girl that I was dating actually was a friend of mine and we've been friends for like 15 years. Oh, boy. Yeah. But it sounds like it's kind of complicated. It's complicated. Yeah. There's too many layers to it. Okay.

Okay. So can I, was there something else that, like, did you want to say more, Carlos? I think that's, that sums up like my experience with dating apps. Sure. Can I, can I ask some questions? Of course. Okay. So, so it sounds like you started with Tinder early, like back before it was cool. But it's a, yeah? When it was cool, let's say, like the media. was talking about it and it seemed like a easy way to try to solve this problem right this loneliness

that I had but what ends up ended up happening is that this Tinder became like a more of a hookup up so people were it's very superficial I think the people are not many times or looking for a committed relationship yeah I'm looking for something more real. So when Tinder become this thing on which people are just looking for something very superficial, I think it never worked for me. It hasn't worked for me. I see. And so for the first five years that you were using Tinder, you mentioned that like, you know, later it got kind of like into this toxic cycle. But for the first five years, what was your experience like? It wasn't really remarkable. Basically, I just made the profile.

I read all of the tips that they gave you. So you were talking before these opening lines and profiles and all that stuff, I read it. I tried to do it. But I didn't also want to put too much effort into it. Because I also don't like to present myself as someone that I'm not. Okay.

So if I'm going to meet someone, I expect that person. to like me for who I am, I'm not because, I'm not for something that I'm not. And in the first few years, I mean, were you dating people on the app and things didn't work out? Or what was your, or were you not like, because I think there's like matching and then, you know, you'll talk to people online and then sometimes you'll go on date. Sometimes they'll turn into hookup. Sometimes they'll turn into relationships. What was your experience like for the first few years?

I've never gone into a date with anyone from online dating, basically. Okay. And what's your understanding of how that's happened? It's a variety of things. For me, I think it's very difficult to build some connection on text only. Okay. So I also feel that there's like an expectation. to for the man to be the one who like drives things forward and uh i find i find that very like

discouraging because i'm kind of expecting if we're two people that are supposed to be somewhat interested in each other i see i'm expecting to to like build this together right but it seems like the expectation is that i have to entertain got it for me it's very difficult to to build those connections over text. And when it finally happens, I discovered that my fear of intimacy kicks in. So I have like maybe two or three people that have been actually interested in going out with me, but I kind of panic and don't know what to do. So I just leave it there.

Okay. So now, Carlos, I'm hearing like a couple of different things. Can I just think for a second? Of course. Is it okay that I'm asking you these questions? Yes, yes, it is. Okay. So the first thing that I kind of want to comment on is that first of all, like, you're looking, it sounds like you're looking for like a real relationship, like a partnership.

Right. So, and so the first kind of challenge is that there's this discrepancy between what you're looking for and what the expectation is. So the expectation sounds like that the man leads. and what you're really looking for is like a partnership where like both people are interested each other and both people drive the conversation forward. Right. And so if someone is expecting you to take the lead, it sounds like you don't really play that game very well.

That's right. And it feels somewhat inauthentic or unfair to you. Yeah, it does. Does it feel both of those things or one more than the other or what? I think it's more the last one. it kind of bothers me that I have to, I mean, yeah. It feels unfair. The relationship at the end, yeah, it feels unfair.

Okay. And then then it sounds like, but there are some people who've expressed interest in you. And when they, so like, it sounds like when they actually like start, you know, I don't know how to say it's trying to move the relationship forward. You said something about panic and fear of intimacy. Right. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. So, for example, there was one connection that I had like maybe three, four years ago.

So the conversation was going well. We took it from the application to another messaging application of the dating app. The conversation was going well. but then the girl I think told me she wanted to meet me and I don't know there's this like very strong feeling of fear or

I don't know it's hard to describe but I wasn't like very sure what to do and that particular time I just become a little less responsive on the conversation. I didn't cut communication, but she ended up, like, getting tired

and eventually lost to me. Like, I tried to reach out and she didn't respond. So I... How do you understand that, and how do you feel about that? I understand it. Like, women naturally don't want to waste their time, with someone that's not showing interest 100%. So I didn't, I don't feel resentful for that kind of interactions

because at the end I know that's kind of a me and that there's things that I have to work on. Hmm. So, yeah, and okay. And what do you think it is that you have to work on? It's, I have very caring experiences regarding dating love life. Because of all of it, it's very hard for me to open up. So, yeah, I mean, I fear rejection a lot. Interesting.

And even though, even though they show interest, I have this fear that they will leave, that they realized maybe they didn't like me as much in that connection. So even though I'm longing for this romantic relationship, I end up sabotaging a little bit. So I think that's very insightful. I'm just going to point out to you that it's kind of tricky, right? Because on the one hand, it sounds like you're looking for someone else to be an equal partner and that you find it frustrating that men are expected to take the lead.

But when the people that express interest in you and sort of share that responsibility, and y'all are like talking back and forth, right? And instead of, I mean, it sort of sounds like, and then if the woman asks you out, you kind of retreat. So it's like on the one hand, if you're taking the lead, that's sort of unfair. But on the other hand, if they're taking the lead or even share the lead with you, it sounds like it kind of triggers this panic response. Right.

That sounds tough, dude. It has been really tough, yeah. Because it's sort of like when they give you what you want, you kind of pull away. Yeah. How do you understand that? Or what do you think about that? I think I'm still processing it and the relationship that I was kind of in. recently helped me understand a little bit and work through many things, right?

So what happened was this friend of mine of many years pretty much told me she had a course and initially my first reaction was to push away again, right? I wanted to run from it. But then I I calmed down, I thought about it, and I'm like, okay, I think I like this friend too. So I told her, I like her back. And up until some point,

it had been a very nice experience because I was able to fight those fears. and overcome any of it. Because I think the key point here is that I really like this person, like this person. And I trust her that she wouldn't hurt me. So I think that's a big component.

Like that I don't know if I can trust that the other person won't hurt me, I guess. What's wrong with being hurt? Um, it's tough. Certainly. Yeah. So far, I haven't had like a positive romantic experience in my life. So I guess I haven't processed those emotions from previous events properly. Maybe.

So yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, the other thing, the last thing that I kind of want to touch on is, is that, you were talking about this like four-year cycle of toxicity where you were essentially using Tinder as an antidote to loneliness. And then it wasn't kind of working out for you, right? And that sort of makes sense to me because if you show up on the app and the main thing that you're feeling is lonely, then I think that that's not going to be the most conducive to forming connections. Right. And it almost sounds to me like a little bit like sort of self-suffer.

where if you're lonely and you kind of show up and that's what you're really putting forward, either consciously or subconsciously, then when things don't work out, you wind up feeling hopeless. And then you like kind of quit the app until the loneliness gets unbearable again and you have to do something. Honestly, you know what that kind of reminds me of Carlos? It kind of reminds me of like patients that I've worked with who have addictions where like the cravings get really, really, really bad, and you know it's like not going to really help you, but you sort of like have to start using. Like this whole like starting and stopping cycle reminds me actually a lot of like people who are struggling with addiction.

Just that you kind of use it as an antidote to loneliness, it doesn't actually fix your problem. And then you end up feeling hopeless and you kind of like, you're like never again and you quit. Right. Is that sort of what it feels like? like for you that you kind of feel like, okay, never again, this is stupid. Like, and then you quit? Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think there's all kinds of stuff going on with dating apps, and we're not really sure how they're affecting our psychology. Yeah, totally.

Because it's kind of like gambling, sort of. I mean, you're waiting for that. Because you're swiping profiles, and eventually you get that reward. of the match, right? So you have like this reward cycle that makes you go back to it eventually. Yeah, I mean, I think they're quite intentionally designed that way. Right. Right. So Carlos, um, any, so kind of where are you now? Like how do you, how do you feel about the future? How do you feel about yourself? Like what do you think, do you have a road forward? What What does it look like? I'm quite unsure because of this dating situation that I'm in, it's not looking very hopeful.

But at the same time, this made me work a lot on myself, I think, this last experience. So I'm feeling a bit more hopeful of the future in general. I'm just not so sure about my current situation. And do you mind if I ask what makes you not very hopeful about the current situation? You don't have to say it if you don't want to. I'm just kind of curious. It's complicated. Let's say the person that I was starting a relationship with, it's dealing with a lot.

She's had a very rough year. I see. So I think she's not in a very, even though she started all this process. I think she's not currently on a good state of mind. Okay. So it's probably not a good time to start a relationship, I guess. I see. Okay.

So it's not necessarily the person. It's more that like the current situation that y'all are in or not is not really conducive to a relationship. I think so, yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, man, that sounds rough. I mean, I'm, you know, I think the one thing that I would kind of share with you is, is, I don't know if you're kind of working. on yourself in some ways. So it sounds like this relationship has helped you sort of dig into the fear of intimacy and connection and rejection. But it sounds like you need to continue to do

some personal work to really help yourself be in a good headspace to make things happen on the romantic front. Right. Yeah, I've been going to therapy for a few years, but I'm, I'm, And I've been talking about this sort of relationship with my therapist, and she told me, like, she didn't want to touch on the topic because she knew that it was kind of painful for me. So we've been focusing more on, like, professional stuff. So I think it's a good opportunity to get back to it. Yeah. I mean, the therapist didn't want to talk about it because it would hurt you?

She knew that it was a sensitive topic, and I don't. that I wasn't really focusing on it. So we were working on other aspects of my life. Based on your therapist's direction or yours? No. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

So it sounds like she kind of gave you the opportunity to not talk about it, and you were like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, well, so, so Carlos, I'm glad you have some support. It sounds like you're walking a good journey, even if the road is a little bit bumpy and

things are a little bit hard. But it sounds like you're really like working at it very intentionally. And I'm hopeful for you because of that. Because I, I mean, it really sounds to me like a lot of where you are right now has a lot to do with you just as much as like the apps or other things because, you know, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, it does. It does. Yeah. So the good news about, you know, if it's your fault, I'm not saying that everything here is your fault, but if you have some degree of responsibility here, the good news is that that's in your control. Right. Whereas one of the most frustrating things that

I hear when I've talked to other people, like more privately about their experience with dating apps, is that the more that they sort of blame the internet and blame other people, blame a particular gender, is that it sort of means that the solution, you know, they're not in control of the solution. Whereas the more responsibility you accept, you know, that that is actually something that's within your power to change. And so it can actually be like quite empowering. Yes, that's right. Cool. Any other thoughts or questions before we wrap up? No, I think that that will be a good point to stop it. Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing Carlos. And I especially thought it was very like eye-opening about

you know, even in situations where people were like kind of pushing to form a connection, that you sort of had this instinctive response. And I imagine that a lot of people are actually like that. The problem is we don't talk about it. That sometimes even the exact thing that you want from a dating app is the thing that causes you to panic the most. And then that in turn leads to a lot of like shame and self-judgment because you're like, oh, I wanted this and then I screwed it up. Right.

So thank you very much for vocalizing those feelings. in that experience. Thank you. Take care, man. Hello. Can you hear me? Hello. Yes, I can hear you.

Yeah, unfortunately, my video camera is, like, not working right now, so... Totally fine. Okay. What do you go by my friend? Um, can you call me, like, Flo? Like, Flo is my nickname, actually. Absolutely. It's Flow.

right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'd love to call you Flo. So what's been your experience with online dating flow? Um, yeah. So my experience was, I guess to summarize it, it was like I had some decent success, but like overall, I guess at the same time, you know, like even the success kind of

make me feel a bit cynical overall. The reason I said that was because, because initially when I started using that dating app, I sort of follow like some specific formula. And like I kind of saw like got quite a few matches and like went on dates and stuff and potentially too long-term relationship from that. but I guess

I guess it was like a few years ago where I started to be more of myself with the mechanism like and but I don't know because of that I got more flaky I don't know something like that like being ghosted something like that

and so I was sort of like feeling cynical in the sense that like being myself isn't really an option okay so yeah that's the summary of it basically Wow, that sounds, first of all, really interesting, but also like really rough because it sounds like you sort of figured out the formula, right? And you figured out how to get into dates and potentially even two real relationships if you're kind of being fake.

Well, there was a bit more interesting nuances, like those two long-term relationship. Well, I said long-term, but I'm not sure if it's qualified as long-term, because. because it's like three to four months. And I know that sounds funny because that's literally the longest I ever been in a relationship. Like, I mean, like, call on, call on. Well, I mean, it sounds like a relationship, right? Three or four months? Yeah, something like.

But the nuances was because those two was more like I was being myself. I'm not sure, like something like that. You were being yourself? Yeah, I know. I know I kind of sound like contradicting myself right now. It's how should I put it? Like I got a couple of like, because I started off like very like, I'm confident in myself basically.

I don't believe like. Flo, can let me, I'm not worried at all about you contradicting yourself. That's where the nuance is. And I think that's where, you know, that's where the real learning is. I don't consider it a problem if you make two statements. that are contradictory. In fact, I think as we explore that, exactly kind of like what you're doing, that's where we're really going to find the money. But can I kind of go back and ask a couple

questions? Sure. So you said that you sort of figured out a formula that seemed to work. Can you clue us in on the secret formula that gets you dates on dating apps? Yeah, I was getting good angles, doing interesting stuff. What do you mean by good angles? Well, just better lightning, better poses. So pictures of you? Yeah, like more complimentary of my looks, basically. I see, okay. Dressing better, all that stuff.

And are you, you identify as a man? Oh, yeah, yeah. And you're interested in women? Yeah. And would you say you're a good looking guy, Flo? No, no, I don't think so. Like, I'm quite average looking. Okay, so you're quite average, but you figured out how to, you know, take pictures with good lighting and good angles to really, like, optimize, you know.

And so you talked about angles. And then, so what else did you sort of figure out helps? Well, I don't know, like, it is going to make me sound obnoxious, but, like, I have six paths. I mean, I look very good, like, physically. So I kind of kind of capitalized on that, I suppose. So you said you have a six-pack? I mean, yeah, just basically like shirtless pictures. I see.

Okay, so shirtless pictures, and it sounds like you're a swelger. Like you exercise. Well, yeah, something like that. Okay. And so, but you consider yourself average looking? I mean, yeah, like face-wise. Face-wise. Okay.

So it sounds, and let me know, Flo, if I overstep, okay? Because I'm going to, is it okay if I, like, meme with you a little bit, or you want me to stay serious? I mean, I'm fine with it. Okay. I'm okay with it. Well, can I trust you to let me know if I say something that's out of line? Yeah, sure. Okay.

So basically, you're taking pictures of stuff besides your face. No, no, no. There's definitely not. I know. I'm joking. No, but that was funny. But yeah. Yeah.

Okay. All right. So it sounds like you're in good shape and you learned how to take good pictures. What else is part of the formula? I mean, I was just being more playful in general. What does that mean? Well, like it sounds cringy, but, well, I mean, it's crazy. It's not, right?

Because it worked. Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's been a year since I play, so I kind of forgot about it, but it's something like I just do some very random weird pickup line in my bio or something like, hi, I'm trouble. And like, I don't know, I'm just basically presenting myself in a way that

I'm a bad match. Like, it's sort of like, you know, like, rather than saying like I'm a good match, I'm just like, you know, like, it's sort of like reverse psychology. it's just like in a playful way in a playful way. So what I'm hearing is you're sort of sarcastically saying

that you're not a good fit, which implies that you actually are a good fit. Something like that, I suppose. Okay, so it sends across some amount of playfulness and, you know, like you could take a picture of your six-pack and you can say something like, yeah, I'm really overweight, you know, and I need to go on a diet, like something like that? Yeah, something like that.

Okay, so you were being playful. Yeah. And anything else that's on your recipe for success? No, I guess that's pretty much it. Okay. And then what were your... Oh, I mean, just one, I suppose. Like, I don't really swipe a lot.

Because it's just more like an algorithm thing, because the more you swipe, the more... If, like, the less matches you get, it tends to... Because at least for Tinder from what I understood is that it's sort of like push down your rank. Yep. If it's like something like that. So you're a rank, you play the game of rank. So if someone swipes right on you, so there's some kind of ratio of like how many people swipe right on you and how many people do you swipe right on?

And if you swipe right on a lot of people, but not many people swipe right on you, that lowers your rank, right? Yeah. So you're kind of calculating with how you swipe. Yeah. Okay. So thank you so much for sharing all this flow. I'm sure a lot of people have learned a lot from, you know, a mini-chad like yourself because you're not a gigacad, right?

Yeah. I'm not. Mini-chat is fair? Yeah, sure. Okay. So then you were telling me that you started to feel a little bit more cynical and you started getting ghosted. Like, help me understand.

And so you're getting matches with people. Are you going on dates? Yeah, yeah, I'm going on dates. And how are those going? Are you implying the part where I feel more cynical? No, I mean, so like walk me through the process, right? So we understand you're making profiles, you match with people, you're texting back and forth. Can you actually tell me about the texting back and forth?

Like what that's like in your case? I've never used Tinder, bro. So you got to like really lay it out for me. Oh, yeah. So I don't know. Like, like, you know, if let's say, if let's say I'm matched with, if let's say I'm matched with 20 goes this week and like, like statistically speaking, like I could get like 10 of them being more like, basically that 50% of them being more like enthusiastic with me. Whereas the other 50% is just like, yeah, I'm not really that interested.

I just thought you look cool. you know but so then from there the 10 girls i'm just giving like a rough number right so and then maybe there's two or three who really want to go out with me then so then from there i focus in on that two three and and i just get their number and try to strike what the irony is hot something like that because you can't delay it too long because i know there's a lot of guys who would want to ask them out too. Okay. Something like that.

And so it sounds like getting their number is not hard for you. I mean, yeah, but number is just number. Okay. And so what do you usually do to get their number? I mean, I'm just saying like, do you want to, I don't know. It depends on my mood, right? Like, I don't really use it. But it's more like, hey,

fancy a drink with a cute guy sometimes. So I don't know something. Just being like sarcastically playful. Fucking Chad, my dude. No, but yeah, it depends on my mood. When I say that, how does that make you feel? Well, I feel like imposter because I know I'm not. But yeah.

Okay. Yeah, so basically that's it. Yeah. Okay, so it. Okay. All right. So. Okay.

So you get, sorry. You always find. So it sounds like you get their number and then you recognize that it's important to act quickly, right? Because like attention spans are short in the day of, in the age of online dating. Yeah. And so then you get their number and then you call them and then what happens? Or you text them or I don't know what you all do nowadays. I mean, it depends. Sometimes I've had, sometimes cold, and, you know, just, it depends. It depends on the girl, usually. If they prefer coffee, I go for coffee. They prefer, like, you know, just some night drinks. And, you know, I just see where it goes from there. It really depends on the girl.

Okay. And what are your dates usually like? well just getting to know each other and stuff and you know if and usually I see how she's feeling me at the moment and I will see I mean we will see where it goes okay and and so do you do you tend to enjoy those

yeah half the time so like I remember like there was this earlier on there's this one forgot who mentioned it which is the problem with getting a lot of days is, you know, it's, it's not, I mean, so, so, so like there's two scenario, like, like, you have, like, a bigger pool sample, but there's less likely of people that actually match you. Whereas if you go the other route where it's, uh, the other

route, which is you filter out all these people that you, I mean, like in the sense that you're being really extremely picky. Um, then I, I don't know, I just feel like bringing that out. Yeah. So that, that sounds important. So what I'm, what I'm hearing there is that, that you made a profile that got a lot of people interested in a shallow way, but that you ended up being a little bit disappointed by the lack of real connection? Yeah, yeah, I would say. I would say so. Like early on, because I started like of this online dating seriously around 2016.

Like early on, I didn't really care that much. Like, you know, because the validation and everything was kind of interesting, so I don't really care that much. And, you know, once after like two years, maybe I prefer something else. That's when I start to feel like, yeah, this is kind of, there's a bit bullshit. It's a bit bullshit. Okay. And so can you tell me a little bit about these two relationships and how you started to, like, what happened, how you got ghosted, how you became cynical?

Oh, yeah. It was, I guess it was around 2020. I guess so around there during the pandemic I was just like you know what if I just try to be more of myself like I don't know

like even even in texting in general like you know I just like maybe more of like a friendly conversation rather than a floaty one you know like just really get to know that person and stuff and that usually tends to lead to

I don't know, like less reaction, I guess, because I don't know, girls respond more towards flirty stuff and friendly approach tends to be less effective. But that's one thing. The other thing was when I, like, let's say I got this girl out and something like that, like, I don't know how to put it nicely, but basically early on, I was more, I don't know, I wish, it's like, I was more cold, I was more emotionally gathered. I don't really let them know what I'm feeling. And later on, which, you know, I was more like, if I really like the girl, I'll express it. So. And what would you say? I don't know. It's a, it's a very uncontrolled, I'm, I'm, I cannot control it sometime. It's almost like, I mean, I'm not, I'm not love bombing.

Yeah. You know, I'm not doing those sort of things, but it's just more like, Hey, I really like you. Like, I just want to let you know because I can't control myself around you or something like that. I was being honest, that's how I feel. And, you know, I guess the girl got freaked out or something. And there was a lot more, you know, similar cases after that. Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it's just my biases, but it kind of feels like that.

Okay. Yeah. So, Flo, I'm going to ask you a couple of things. specifics here. Do you say something, like, like, quite literally, like I can't control myself around you? Um, I mean, it's so long. I mean, like two years ago, so I kind of like, I can't really remember the specific, but it's something like that. Something like that. And I'm detecting an accent. Do you speak other languages? I speak Chinese. Okay. So, and when you're talking with these girls, are you speaking in

English or Chinese? Usually, mostly English. Okay. And how, and so once you say something like that, you're guessing that, and so then they pull away. Is that fair? Yeah, it kind of feels like that. Yeah, it feels like that.

It's more like, it's not like, so it's not like that totally stop replying to my tax. Sure. It's just kind of feel. like it becomes harder to get them to talk to me. So I don't, I just don't put in the effort after that, you know, if that makes sense. Okay. Because I just feel like they are less enthusiastic. Like, I, I'm, I'm not willing to put myself through that. Because I know how this goes. I've been in that position before. So you stop putting in as much effort.

Yeah. As soon as I detect that, uh, They're not that enthusiastic. Like, for example, I would say something like, hey, you want to get a drink next week? And then I would see how, as opposed to, yeah, sure, I will let you know, you know. And then, like, I will wait until that day and then there's no, like, initiative from them. So I was like, yeah, I don't feel like initiating. And how many girls have you said that, too? You mean, like, I feel.

Yeah, that I'm really into you. Yeah, like this is like the nuances. I'm just, it's like I don't really explicitly say that all the time. Yep. I don't know. It's just like, okay, like two months ago. So this girl, I met her through not online dating, but someplace else. So so basically it's something like I became more emotionally vulnerable.

in the sense that I I don't know like I just asked a lot of questions like hey how you're doing you know like not not not like excessively but basically like I don't know how to put it like

I know my frequency kind of like increase a bit your frequency of communication with them yeah like you know like It's in like, rather than letting them wait, I mean, like, you know, sort of like creating the anticipation for them, I just sort of like, just like, I cannot, like, why should I play this game?

Right. Like, if I'm really interested in them, I would just talk to them more. And then, and then like I talk to them. It's not even a lot, you know, and then I feel like they are pulling away. I can just feel it. And the reason why I say I can feel it is because, Um, like I know they read my test and I saw them posting some, you know, like sharing some stories on Instagram. Like I know they are active and stuff and they are purposefully ignoring my messages.

And then I just left it there. And then like maybe two, three days later, I just feel like, you know what? I'm not going to eat shit. You know, like, I'm not going to play that game. So I just blocked them something like that. Okay. And, uh, so I'm still a little bit. Thank you for illustrating how that plays out.

How often do you go down this road of like sharing your feelings with the women that you're dating or talking to? Does it happen like a lot, very little? Like are we talking like two times, three times, ten times, twenty times? I think it was like eight times. Okay, so that's a fair number. Yeah, six to eight times. And it has never really worked out with you for, or four of you, sorry. Yeah, I guess so.

Like, I'm trying to be, like, I don't know, like, I'm not sure if I'm just being biased. I don't know, like, it's very hard to recall those experience specifically. Of course. Yeah, yeah. And so, Flo, I'm a little bit curious, like, I mean, so, so, bro, it sounds like you really, like, care about some of these women that you're really kind of like into them, that you're really looking for, like, a real relationship. and how does it feel to kind of express some of your more vulnerable emotions and kind of have them pull away, like eight times, dude? How do you feel about yourself? Yeah, maybe at times was exaggerating, like maybe six times. But yeah, how do I feel about it?

Well, to be honest, I don't know if this is the right word to express it, but I almost feel a bit like in cell at that moment. like I feel like there's this part of me that feels like there's this so like I just want to like generalize woman right like saying you know girls are like that because I was feeling hurt

so I might like a part of me want to you know just to rationalize how it is how I don't know so I was hurt I was I was very very very very yeah I was so super down two months ago

and And what do you do with those feelings of being hurt or being down? How do you deal with those? Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like this is another topic in itself, but to make it long story short, I struggle. I have very bad coping mechanism. Sure.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But that being said, one of the worst things, which I, thankfully, I stopped doing now, was in the past when I feel hurt I would talk to more a woman you know

it's almost like yeah who cares about that girl now it's like my ego was talking

to another one so it's like very just because I can't deal with that emotion so yeah yeah okay

yeah can I think for a second flow Sure. Anything that you want to ask or anything else that you want to add? Well, I just want to add, like, I understand that I have like this cynical part of me, like being myself is just never going to work. I know that's false, but yeah. Okay. That's all.

Would you say that you're good at expressing your emotions? I think I am. I mean, at least the past two years ever since the pandemic, I've been working on that. I feel that I've been very good on that. Okay. And do you have, like, close friends or family that you can discuss, like, deep and personal things with?

I have, thankfully, a couple of one or two, three friends. I can talk to you about this, so, yeah, I'm thankful. Okay. And I'm going to ask you kind of a weird question flow. Are you worth loving? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, yeah. But, you know, there are times when I struggle with this a lot past few months ago.

So, I mean, now it's more like leaning more towards yes, basically. Leaning more towards yes. Yeah, it's not like 100% yes. I mean, are you sure you're? leaning more towards yes? I mean, I think so. I mean, I said that because I'm more forgiving towards myself when I make mistake and all that.

I mean, in the past, I was very, very critical of myself. Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like you're worth loving. You deserve your love. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right? Do you deserve other people's love?

I mean. or are you worth loving by other people? I mean, I think so. I mean, yeah. Okay, okay. Okay, I'm really happy to hear that because so here's, so here's what I'm hearing for a couple of interesting things. Okay, the first is that, so you tossed out the word imposter earlier. So like it sounds like you are a average looking guy, but it sounds like you get a fair number of matches.

It sounds like you get a lot of women who are at least surface interested in you. It also sounds like the way that you play the game is to select for those kinds of women, right? So like you're... Yeah. And you know, you know kind of like how to behave like a Chad. I guess so. Right? And so, so which is cool.

Like I wouldn't advise you necessarily to do anything different, right? So I think that being like flurts, being being a little bit, you know, and if you, if you, you know, are proud of your physical form and sort of advertising that, I think, is like completely reasonable. And then what it sounds like is that you get into these situations where you really start to catch feelings for a girl. And then you sort of like change your tune a little bit. You start to kind of like say, hey, I'm like super into you. And then you notice that they kind of pull away when you do that. And that, that happens consistently.

Yeah. And then now, okay, yeah? No. No, it's just, well, I mean, I will elaborate after I hear your. No, no, keep going. Elaborate now, bro. Okay. Well, I feel like this is a bit different topic.

Well, earlier on you mentioned, like, you mentioned how I talk about, I was feeling like an imposter. Like, one thing I wonder. elaborate on that was also because like something I just realized was I I know oftentimes I think about it is all the girls that I had like gone out in dating from from online dating I always wonder that if I met them in real life would they be interested in me and I say this because I never I don't know I don't I feel that if I met them in like social circle in real life they wouldn't bet an eye

on me. Like, it's just how I feel. Unless you're sure. I don't know. It sounds so good. I don't know. Like, and it's, it's not just like, you know, quote-unquote shoulders or whatever. It's also like something about online dating. I can just show the best side of me. And like, I feel that if I were to meet them in, you know, social setting or whatever, I'm just like a hopeless, you know, I just, I don't know. That's just how I feel.

Yeah, and sorry for making a joke that was making light of your feelings. I think that that makes... No, no, no. Yeah. It makes, I think it makes a lot of sense because I think that... So let me put it back to you this way. Okay, so if you're... Let me think about how to ask this.

So, if you met them in person, do you think that they would be interested? Like, I... Yeah, I don't know. The question over the day, I just don't know. Like, I feel like it's no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the answer is no.

Yeah, yeah. Right? And so when I ask you, like, are you like worthy of love? Like what I'm, maybe that's, so it sounds like you've worked on yourself a lot and like super proud of you, bro. And, and also that it sounds like you really like lack a lot of confidence. And what I'm concerned about is that I do think there could be some amount of cognitive bias. especially if because I think the other thing to kind of think about is that

I think when you express like authentic feelings with people yeah it's a it's like a shift right and so I think sometimes it takes people like time to process that yeah and I'm kind of curious like do you ever tell people in person or it's usually over text in person and how do they respond

I mean I wish I have more time to recall that okay the memory but and is there what determines whether you tell them or not like let's say you catch feelings for a girl

what determines like when you say it what determines when I say it I don't know I just say at the end of the date something like that I know, but why at the end of that date as opposed to like a week later, two weeks later, or three weeks later? Oh, I don't know. I just feel like I'm too old to play this shit.

I mean, this game. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm 28. I'm still young, but on the others, yeah. Yeah, so, so I mean, like, I think there are a couple things here. One is that I wonder if you're writing off women too quickly. So when you say like, I'm too old to play this shit or, you know, like, I don't have time for these games.

Now that I've confessed my feelings, like now I suddenly have no more time for games. But up until you confess your feelings, it's like it's games all day long. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, so I think. No, go ahead. Yeah, no, go ahead.

No, I was just saying like the most recent one, which was. I don't know. Like the girl that I said, I block her because she didn't reply to me. I don't see any reason why I need to initiate the conversation after I... Wait, so what amount of time between you telling her and how long between confessing your feelings and blocking? I mean, so, so this, the most recent goal that, quote-unquote, I block her was just I was, because she was feeling sick that day. And I was just asking, like, hey, are you feeling better? Like, yada, yada, yada.

And like, she didn't reply. And then like two, three days later, she still didn't reply. And then I saw her, like, being active on Instagram, like, posting story and that stuff. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to play this game. And then I just block her. So we're talking about 72 hours between confessing feelings and blocking. Yeah, I wouldn't say, yeah, it's not really like confessing, right? It's more like I was explicitly showing more.

Sure. Sure. But for context-wise, for context-wise, this particular, like, very quickly, she was the one who kept flirting with me. Like, she, like, so, so, so, like, she knows that I like her. So, okay, okay. Okay, okay. Yeah, but flow.

So here's, here, okay, so like. Yeah. All right, so I'm going to start off by saying, like, I could be wrong about this. Okay? Definitely. I don't know nothing about online dating. So, but here's, I want you. you to try to put yourself in hers shoes

for a second. So here she is. You're flirting with her. She's flirting with you. It's all fun in games. Yeah. Right? And so then like imagine that you like like escalate some right? So you're like hey I'm actually like really into you.

Now how would it feel if she just went back back to just the general flirting? If she like gave you a wink wink a nudge, an eggplant emoji and a thumbs up. Yeah, I don't know. I take that as a positive sign rather than, you know,

rather than not reply. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I think I'm learning a lot here. Okay. So my point is that, okay, so like, let's say like me and you are playing a game of, I don't even know what.

But if you like escalate on me, I can't keep playing down here. here. Yeah. You get that? Yeah. Like, she can't leave that. She's got to match your intent. Like, you can't just ignore what you said and keep on flirting.

I guess so. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. I never considered that. But yeah, that's interesting. So, and I think there's a lot that's going on because, like, here you are blocking them. Like, you see them on Instagram, but it's like, if someone like, Flo, if you were to confess your love, for me right now.

Yeah. I would need time to process, right? Especially if I'm into you. Okay. And I think what's going on is that deep down you feel to a certain degree unlovable. We're just going to call it that. I know you're working on it. And it's okay for things to be contradictory because that's how our brain works, right?

So it's like, do I want to eat, you know, like do I want to eat one thing or another thing? Like, I want both. And I want neither one. So like sometimes human beings are conflicted. And I think what I'm hearing, honestly, is that it sounds like you're very, very sensitive to rejection if you have like made yourself vulnerable. And so before they even reject you or accept you, it's like you can't wait in the waiting room and it like feels so terrible that you just end up blocking them. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Because what are you really, when you block them, what? what can't happen if you block them? I mean, I block them for my peace of mind, basically. Like, I just don't want to think about it, something like that. Exactly, right? So it's intolerance of your own limbo. Yeah.

You understand limbo? Yeah. I guess. I can Google it later. Let me try to think about... So, like uncertainty. Oh, yeah. Right?

So like, but my point is that I don't, I mean, I think you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot like bluntly because I think that sometimes when, and I realize I'm generalizing here, which is not something that we want to do, but I'm just going to use this generalization. It's true of men and women, but I'm going to use the word women, okay? Yeah. So I think she like needs time to process because here's like this mini-chad flow with his six-pack and his flirting and all this kind of stuff. And then suddenly in a. moment, Flo, you have become every woman's dream, which is a sexy playboy who has feelings and is actually into you instead of being a sexy playboy who's going to date you and then just like move on to someone else. And then like, that's a lot for people to handle. Because the rules of the game have changed and sometimes they need a little bit of time. Yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking about it. Yeah. I mean, I could be wrong here. But and so that the next thing is that when you block them, like, then it gives you peace of mind. But just think about what you're doing there is for your peace of mind, you're actually like,

you're not giving them the chance to like process and like come back to you. Does that make sense? Yeah, I can think of one or two scenarios that fall into that category. But yeah. Right. And okay, so fair, right? So then we also have to acknowledge that maybe like four out of the six weren't looking for a serious emotional commitment.

And when you signal that, they get less interested. Yeah, yeah, I think definitely that's a factor too. Yeah, absolutely, right? So I'm not saying this is always the case. But I think this is where there's like some amount of like you got to really think a little bit about. So if like a girl like confessed her love for you, how would you respond? I mean, if I'm interested in her, then, you know, why do I need to wait, I guess?

Okay. So, so how long does it take you to figure out if you're interested in her? I don't know. 24 hours. Okay. I could be wrong. I could be wrong because I was never in that sort of situation before. Right. So I think it may take you a little bit more than 24 hours. Yeah, I guess. Right. And even if it doesn't, like so there's, I don't even know how true this is, but it's something that I remember hearing.

It's not like scientifically valid, or maybe it is, I have no idea. But that men fall in and out of love quicker, but like women take longer to fall in love, but stay in love longer. So I think something that you just got to acknowledge is that sometimes, like, people need time to process. And I certainly would not block them

just because you're feeling uncertain. Do you see that? Like you're using blotage. blocking them is an antidote to your own emotional discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. And then it sounds like it really hurts you when you know that they've been using Instagram. They're using the internet.

They saw your message. And fucking A, they're not responding to you. And how does that feel? Oh, damn. Horrible. Absolutely. What is the emotion that you're feeling there? in that instance, unlovable, basically, in that instance.

And what, so I'm going to, I'm going to give it another word. It's ignored. You're being ignored. Yeah. And when you're being ignored, what are you going to do? You know, all sort of things, just not to feel it. Absolutely. But you sure as hell ain't going to put up with that shit.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And if you ain't going to put up with that shit, what are you going to do? Well, yeah. You're going to block them and you're going to swipe right on a ton of other people. Yeah, yeah. Right?

Yeah. Sure. And so, Flo, like, I think you're a wonderful person. I think you've worked really hard at, like, growing over the last, it sounds like two years. I think you're more lovable than you give yourself credit for, which I think you do sometimes give yourself the appropriate amount of credit. But that inside of the Chad flow is a little like beta flow. And sometimes, right?

And sometimes if you get treated a particular way, you get terrified that the Chad flow is not the real flow. and the real flow is the beta flow and oh my God, it's happening again. Yeah. And then to avoid that because you hate feeling like beta flow, you're blocking them.

And the second you block them, the second you ghost them, you don't have to feel like beta flow anymore. You can swipe right on 10 women. They're going to text you and you're back to being Chadflow. Yeah. But neither the Chad flow nor the beta flow

or the true flow. They're both false aspects of you, which you'll meditate for a while and you'll understand that. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Because I was just thinking about one of your meditation guys that you talk about this. Yeah. Like the aspect of toll, there's no toll without show, there's no show without toll, something like that.

Yep. And so I'll leave you with one last thing. The true Chad does not fear being the beta. Yeah. So it's like, okay. give people a little bit of time, more practically, like give women some time or whoever you're dating. Give them some time to process if you change the rules of the game. Yeah. Yeah. I'm writing that down as we speak. And like practically, if you've got those friends, if you're feeling that way,

maybe talk it through with a friend instead of like engaging in a behavior with the person that you're dating. Does that make sense? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. I'm really excited for you, Flo. I think you're a wonderful dude, and I really hope you find love. Thank you. But you have to give it a chance.

Yeah. Any last thoughts or questions? Well, nothing much. It's just I'm a really big fan of your work. Like, that's just someone I want to say. It really helps me a lot of the past two years. That's what we're here for. you for calling in because I think with you calling in, you're going to help a lot of other people.

So thanks for being a part of the process. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome, my friend. Yeah, thank you. What do you go by? Just go by Thossey. That's fine.

Soce? Fossi. Okay. Soshi? No, no. Let's try. Torstein. Torselin?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's not an easiest name, I guess. I mean, no, I'm sure it's easy if you speak the language. Yeah, yeah, I mean, for non-speakers. Sure. Okay, so, Thorslane. Mm-hmm.

What are your online dating experience? Tell us about your experience of online dating. They have been limited. I've just started. a couple of months ago. Okay. They've mostly just been not so great.

Got a couple of matches, but they were some of them just advertising services, you know? No, I don't. I've never... What kind of services? Sexual.

In return for payment. Okay. That was a bit of a bit of a shock, but okay. Okay. Let's see. Those are like two, yeah, two or three you did that. Okay.

There was another one I matched. So wait, wait, when that happens, do you like report the person or what? No, I just like, no, not interested. Good luck. Okay. Because I don't think it's illegal here to do that. I'm in Norway. Okay.

And I don't think doing it yourself is illegal. I think it's only illegal if someone else is profiting from it. Okay, no, but I mean, in terms of like a dating app, is it... Oh, yeah, you mean like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not like legally. I mean, like, I'm just curious. Like, what happens when someone on a dating app tries to sell you something?

I don't know. Okay. I haven't read that part of the terms and conditions that well. All right. So I just said, no, thanks, thanks, not interested by. Okay. Yeah, so it sounds like you've been dating using dating apps for a couple months. So what's it been like?

Yeah. It was just been like that. There were a couple of other matches. I were all right. They started fine, net chatting with the chats. Then they went on to, hmm. Let's see. Yeah, there was one.

She asked this really nice question early on. So what do you do for a living? This is nice. It's a normal question. So I tell her. And then the next question was a bit worse. I was like, oh, is that poorly paid? Which I thought was, yeah, I thought that was a bit of a strange question so early.

Basically asking how much do you make? Okay. You know, so I was like, yeah, I told that was a weird question. And then she said, just unmatched. Okay. So that was that. And yeah. How do you understand that?

I basically take it that she was looking for, well, a richer man. Okay. I would think so. I mean, a charitable interpretation would be that just making sure that I'm of some unemployed bum. But, I mean, since I already have a job, that shouldn't have been the main issue. Okay. Yeah. and other experiences

there was one yeah one more she was but it turned out quite early that she was pregnant and pregnant you're not responsible for that I'm assuming no no no no no I came up quite early in the chatting as well before you next person is pregnant in dating

on a dating app anyway yeah so and not really my thing so those are the matches who I've never actually gone on a date as a result of a dating app okay so so far just to understand this

you've gotten some people trying to sell you sex yeah one person who asked you what you do for a living asked you how much money you make were they making conversation or were they like oh this was this was what was third, fourth question.

And when they say, like, is that well paid, like, can you just say yes and move on? Well, it's not exactly, I mean, it's normal paid. Okay. Like, yeah, I'd say it's about average. You took issue with, like, you sort of got the vibe that she was sniffing around for someone who's wealthy. Yeah. Asking that early on was, yeah. Okay.

And so then you responded to her and you said, hey, I think that question's inappropriate, and then she unmatched. Yeah. Yeah. I said, not inappropriate. I said, that's a bit of a weird question. I said. And did you answer it or no?

No, I didn't answer. It just like just answered with saying, hey, that's a bit of a weird question, isn't it? And then they just unmatched. Yeah. And then the third person is looking to date and is pregnant. Yeah. And so that that's not your thing you said. That's, no, no, not really.

That's definitely going to come with complications. Yeah. And so, do you just tell her, yeah, I'm not interested, or what? Yeah, yeah, that's just what I said. That's not something I want to get into. Sorry, but, you know, best of luck. Sounds like it was nice that she told you she was pregnant. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that would have been a shocker otherwise. Yep. But so it sounds like she was pretty open about that and pretty respectful. and not leading you on and stuff. So it's kind of a win, right? Yeah, absolutely. But it's still like, you know, yeah. It's a win in that sense.

But yeah. Yeah. So if these have been your experiences with online dating, what are you thinking going forward? Like, is this, but you say you've only been to this a couple months, right? Yeah. I mean, I've,

well, I've been single now for, for 10 years. Okay. And then, yeah, after that breakup, Well, I did go on a couple of dates, but then, yeah, I've been just staying away from the whole thing for a while. After, yeah, for a few years. Okay. I've just not been doing anything romantic. And now I figure, yeah, it's time to get back into it.

Okay. Well, I'm sorry you've had such a, you know, reintroduction. Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, I wasn't going into the apps with biggest of hopes. And which apps are you using? Well, there's this one called Happen, which, well, it just sort of lets you know when other people who are using it are in your vicinity. Okay. If you walk past them on the street or whatever. Okay.

And then you can see how often you've crossed paths with them in the last week or whatever. Okay. So that's, yeah. That's the app you're using? Yeah. Is that the is that like a common one in Norway? I think so. I didn't do any research.

It just saw Google dating apps and this one looked nice. Okay. And then there's one. Yeah, I'm also using one called Bumble. And how's that going? That's where I met the pregnant woman. But I, yeah. Otherwise, that's nothing much happening there.

So I think if I'm going to, it work. I should get better pictures and write the better bio. Yeah, and how much, what is your, what was your process of setting up your profile? Oh, well, I had a couple of pictures around. I were fairly recent and I used them and then I just took one, one of those selfies to have the most recent one. And then just, yeah, there are some questions you ask, some questions you answer. Like, what are you looking for a relationship? Nothing serious, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Hide and weight. Yeah. Okay. And then you write something about yourself.

So, so it sounds like you need to, or you didn't really spend too much effort on your profile or pictures. No, no, not yet. And is that something that you're thinking about doing? Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm to ask some, some friends to help me out with it. Sounds good, man. It sounds like you had some weird experiences so far. It started off, honey, so it can really only go up. Well, let's know so. I wouldn't tap fate if I were you.

Well, that's true. Thorselin? Yeah. You can try Thorsted. Thorsted? Yeah. Thorstead. yeah that's uh yeah yeah cool

I don't know what else to say because I think usually people have had a little you know have been on dating apps for a little while longer I really like appreciated your stories yeah I'm happy to hear more about it if you want to share but you know it it sounds like you've only been on the app apps for a couple months have only had a couple of experiences yeah this is pretty much it Cool. Oh yeah, I'm looking at the thing I wrote. I remember this last one, but that's such a small story.

She just wanted to get on some chatting app she was using, not Messenger, some not WhatsApp, some third or fourth one. And I was like, ah, what is that app? I don't know. And then she said, okay, bye. So. Yeah. Why do they ask you to move to a different app to chat? I didn't know.

I asked, like, why? And she was like, she deleted the contact afterwards, so I can't look over it. Exactly what she said. Hmm. But it all looked sort of weird. So it sounds like people unmatch pretty easily. Sounds like.

Well, I mean, I... Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it just sounds like, you know, any kind of... Anything that doesn't follow the script. up results in unmatching?

Yeah. It looks like it. Okay. Yeah, so Chad is also saying that maybe that was a scam. What do you think? Entirely possible? For some weird other app.

Yeah. That's entirely possible. I mean, at least I was suspicious of it. Sure. And maybe since the scammer, since you didn't download it right away, any chance it was like a catfishing profile

catfishing yeah like was it like a fake profile or was it could it look more real it could have been real okay the pictures all look like normal pictures and not I mean you see some of those yeah where you have uh

obviously just some taking off a model page and it's like yeah those are all professional pictures no that's not real but this one this one looked normal I think. Anything else you want to share any questions that you've got?

I just don't have much to ask given what your initial experience has been pretty limited. Well, no. Not really. Well, I'd love to, you know, if you could keep us updated, either if we do this again

or, you know, posting on Reddit or whatever. Like, I'd love to hear what your experiences are like a few months out, a few more months in. Or are you like, optimistic or how are you kind of feeling about it? I'm somewhat optimistic, but I'm not overly invested. I mean, I also just meet people out in the world.

Okay. So, I mean, there's a, yeah, there's a bunch of things that can happen. Cool. So it sounds like you're just on the early stages and kind of exploring and not overly investing, but also is just sort of like seeing what's going to happen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'd love to, you know, if there's some way,

that you can let us know if we do this again, like just, you know, maybe give us an update a few months from now. I'll see if I'll remember it a few months from now. Sure. All right, man. Take care. You too. Cheers. Bye.