HealthyGamerGG - How Our Parenting Affects Our Relationships ft. SaintVicious

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

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By the whole monastery thing, what do you mean? Oh, no one can. Oh, you're sorry, you're muted. Sorry, sorry. That's my bad. I forgot one thing. Keep going. You're good now. You're like, you know, where you cast off all your belongings and go to like live in the temple with all, you know, the other monks and all that? Or did you just like study? No. So I, so yeah, it's a good question. So I tried to do that. So I spent one summer in a monastery at the age of 21 and decided I wanted to. to become a monk. So I, you know, was learning from monks. And I went to them and I said,

I'm ready to take my vows and I want to become a monk. And they said, you're crazy. And then I was like, no, but I really love this. I want to do this. And they're like, that's totally cool. So you can come here and study with us, but you're not ready to take your vows. We want you to finish your education. We want you to go get a doctoral degree. You can come here and study with us. You can stay as long as you want to, but you need to complete certain worldly duties. And then if you still want to take your vows at the age of 30, we will take you. And I said, sure. And then you're just like, no thanks afterwards. No, no. I was, I was like, yeah, absolutely. Sounds good. So then I spent several years doing what they told me to do. I spent every summer in India, usually like winter breaks as well

while I was in college. So it would spend like anywhere between two and four months in monastery. also traveled to different monasteries across India, South Korea, and Japan, and studied with different teachers. And then really wasn't sure, like, which tradition to take vows in. You know, I had my original teachers, and they said, like, you can come back when you're 30. And I was like, cool. And I went back every year, and they continued to teach me. And then... How old are you now?

I'm 38. Oh, so did you end up going? I mean, I'm assuming you didn't go back and commit. So why would you not commit? Because I met my wife and fell in love. And as it turns out, my teachers were very, very wise and understood that my desire to become a monk was out of escapism. It was a genuine love for what I was learning. But there was a heavy component of escaping and ego.

So they were like. Okay. That makes sense. It makes sense. They were like, you can't give up a life that you don't have. right? So they were like, go and build a life and have something worth giving up and then give it up and become a monk. They're like, go build something. I understand this now. Yeah. And you're like so young when you're like going in and you're like, you know how like when you think everything is like magnified so much higher when you're younger? And it's like, you're like, I've done all this stuff and I've experienced all these things. Like, no, you haven't. Yeah. Absolutely. So my teachers were very wise then. They're still a wise now. I think they understood me. And they still taught me a lot.

And then I ultimately also discovered or realized also through their help that becoming a monk is just something that you do on the outside. Right. So like there are actually like you can become like the real work of a monk is not, it has nothing to do with the outside world. It has everything to do with like the internal world. So I still practice in a robust way that I would. if I was a monk because everything's internal. Doing like the mantras and all that. Yep.

I was actually learning about like Zen Buddhism and all the, you know, some of those other things. And like it's interesting how they, like one of the health aspects that they have like that they, that we don't really think about them like our society is like, sat like the inner monologue like sound within, you know,

like that's why they do mantras to like replace like how your brain is like going down like a different path. You can like do a mantra. like make it go down like another path. I'm like, I'm like not like that well versed in it, but I was like just like reading the look on it a little bit. And I thought that was interesting.

That is interesting. Does that appeal to you? Oh yeah. I'm like, tried it. You know, it's like when I feel like, I don't want to say like I'm getting overwhelmed,

but like my brain is like going off somewhere that I don't want it to go. And like I don't want to say I like self-diagnosed like ADD or whatever, but it's like definitely my mind wonders a lot. So it's like it's like I sometimes do that just. like recenter myself. Like I try to practice mindfulness or whatever. Cool. So let's start by just,

can you tell me what you go by or what I should call you today? You just call me Brandon. It's okay. And we seem to be lagging a little bit. Yeah. So, um, and Brandon, so it sounds like we're talking about focus today.

Uh, yeah, we can talk about that. We can talk about any other thing. You would be honest, I was like, uh, you guys asked me what I wanted to talk about.

And then I ended up like watching, uh, the ice was stuff. beside an episode you guys did. And as he's going through all that, I'm like, wow, there's like a lot of parallels here that I'm like, I'm like, that's not good. Oh my goodness.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, we can talk about anything, though. Like, I'm an open book. And, you know, I'm definitely like self-aware of like all the, I'm like a work in progress. You know what I mean? Sure.

Aren't we all? Aren't we all? Yeah. So tell me, where did your work in progress? progress begin? Like what, tell me what, tell me a little about yourself, man. About myself, uh, you want like my whole of my story or sure. Well, I mean, basically I, you know, normal person went to high school in small town and like Greenville, South Carolina, um, did that. Uh, I was addicted, super addicted to video games, you know, to the point where like,

basically I would spend all my high school time like sleeping. If I was in class, I was sleeping. And And then if I what, and then half the time I wouldn't show up. So I just stay at home and play games. So then I like missed so many days of my high school year that I, uh, they're like, you're going to have to repeat this. I just dropped out and like got my GED or whatever. And then I ended up going to like community college and like working random jobs. And, uh, and then I just got bored of that.

And one day I just randomly signed up for the Navy. I was just like, okay, this, I was like super bored of school. And I just like on a whim, signed up for the Navy. did that for like three and a half years and then I got out of that went to university I was studying pre-med I wanted to be like

a orthopedic surgeon and then my senior year I ended up playing in some tournament in Europe and we ended up like winning it for like League of Legends so I ended up I was like wow this could like actually kind of take off and I had a very addictive personality kind of

and I was a super even though I was like doing school and all that, I was still super addicted to games. So I just, on a whim, dropped out my senior year and ended up playing pro league for a couple of years and, like, coaching it. And then I stopped doing that. And I just stream a game called TFT,

and I do, like, day trading on the side, too. And that's pretty much that. Yeah. But just to paraphrase my entire, like, I feel like my entire 20th, 20s is like a very, very self-destructive. Let's just say that. Like, I think I spent like my whole like early 20s like drunk, like literally

permanently drunk. And then the second half of my 20s, I just spent like permanently high. So I definitely have like a very, very addictive personality. And that's something like I had to like gain control of. And yeah, definitely led to some interesting, interesting life. Some interesting life moments. Can you share, I find myself being incredible curious. Can you share something?

You know, teaser much. Well, yeah, like I, obviously I drank a lot when I was in the military because that's just what everybody does. And then drink a lot in college because that's just people partying. And then, but like that carried over into like when I was like playing games, like on the team. And I basically would like, we do our scrims and then like the moment the screws to get done, I would just get like, I would just drink a lot. And I become a very like, I like to argue with people. I'm not like physically fight, but like verbally fight and stuff like that. Or like really like messed up with like a lot of my relationships with people and stuff and my teammates.

And then obviously like when I wouldn't get good sleep because, you know, when you go to sleep when you're drunk or whatever, like messes up your sleep and I can like go into practice. And then it just like becomes this like self-destructive cycle. And yeah. I don't drink anymore. just to like paraphrase on that, but it's like, yeah. Why not? It's definitely, um, I just don't feel the need to. And I mean, I still drink socially.

Like if I go out, like, my friends will have like a drink. But I like, I don't drink at home. I like won't keep it in the house. I just kind of like fell out of it. Actually, the moment I stopped is when I started smoking weed. And I was, I replaced one vice with another vice, like in my mid-20s. And it's like I said, I have like a very addictive personality. What does that mean a very addictive personality?

You keep using that phrase. When I get into something, I'm like, I say, like, it could be a game even. Like, it's like, I become, for games in particular, like I become obsesses with it. Like, it's all I can think about, like all I want to do. And I think I use it, I think I do things like that. I don't want to say it's in a form of escapism,

but it's like, it's more so like, I guess I'm like really bored of like normal like everyday like living kind of thing. I don't know. I'm using it as a way to like escape from that, you know? I think that's like what I kind of like came to the realization of. So sounds like you've had a lot of varied experiences, man. Like you've like lived life. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah. We've been out there. Yeah. It's you know, playing professionally, joining the Navy, struggling with an addictive personality like you know odd jobs community college pre-med dreams of being an orthopedic surgeon

there's like there's like a lot in there bro yeah we're in there doing stuff not anymore though I just I just above now I just play video games yeah how's how's that going it's okay I stream a game called TFT it's like a it's like a car I want to say a card game it's like a glorified card game

So it's like a chill game where you can just like hang out and talk to people. So I kind of do that. And then just try to do trade stocks on the side, whatever, you know, all the normal stuff. Yeah. And hang out with my SO and all that and, you know. So how do you understand your addictive personality? Can you explain to us what that is like? What it's like?

for like games or like when I was when I was drinking or like I feel like it varies from thick thing to thing it's because it's like I feel like and at least like passively in my mind I find like if I'm not like super engaged I'm very very active like I'm always like very active mind like always thinking about like a million different things and I find that if like at least in my 20s, if I didn't like numb that out, like, my brain would just like explode. I'd just be like thinking about too many things, like the future, like all this, you know, all like, you know, all the normal stuff, right, that any person would think about. But it's like, can you give us an example of what you would think about if you didn't numb your mind?

Just like, existential crisis. Like, what am I going to be doing in the future? Like, past interactions I've had with people or like future interactions I'm going to have with people um like where am I going to be and like you know I'm sure like everybody worries about this kind of stuff but it's like my like I it's like very overwhelming for me and uh and like I couldn't turn it off so it's like I guess I would just drink to turn it off or I would like smoke myself into a stupor to turn it off or I do like whatever you know and uh that was basically like my coping mechanism with it and then I got a lot into philosophy and

kind of did like some other interesting like therapeutic stuff to like to like kind of break myself out of that cycle I want to say so like I'm good now when did you realize why did you try to break out of the cycle

can you help us understand like how you came to realize that this was a cycle and that it needed to end well it's realized it's like well obviously like it's pretty easy to realize that being drunk all the time is bad

and also like I didn't like smoking because even just to kind of like give you info it's like when you smoke all the time it's like I think it like builds up like a massive like the more you smoke like it it's like over time will like build up like a massive like layer of anxiety so it's like you're using it to escape from something but it's like actually like building up like what you're trying to escape from you know what I mean. So it's like And then one day it just came to like A brim and I just like I just stopped smoking too So it's like Because like when I would be When I would be out of like

Out of the state of smoking I would get like Where I'm normal I would have like massive anxiety Because it's like I'm not used to like the normality You know what I mean? So yeah So it's like

And then one day I just realized like I just I just I just Some reason I just like didn't need to do it anymore I don't know I was like woke up one day I just didn't need to do it anymore. I was like, I'm just going to stop this. And I was okay, I don't even understand how it happened, but...

What do you think about that? Well, what, just stopping? Yeah, how does that... That's kind of interesting. Well, I mean, at the time, I was reading a lot of, like, a philosophy and, like, one thing that really, like, helped me was, like, this concept of, uh, basically, like, the past not existing and the future not existing. The only thing that exists and is, like, real is the present.

and basically like being in the present because a lot of my issues of like the anxiety were like thinking about the future, right? Or, you know, or thinking about things that happened in the past. Right. But if you like remove those like concepts, those ideas and like the only thing that is real or like matters to you and there's in front of you is like right now, like this conversation with you right now.

And then bringing your mind to like being like in that moment at all times, you know? So I just like it sounds ridiculous to try not to think about the future, but just more like, yeah, just more focusing on the present. And just that concept helped me out a lot. So it sounds like you were, because here's what I'm imagining, Brandon, is that there are people who are watching this, right? And like, so in my day job, I'm actually like in a day. well, I don't even know if that's true anymore because this has become my day job.

But in my day job as of one year ago, I used to be in a dick. psychiatrist. I mean, I still have, I still see about 10 patients a week. But, you know, the, the interesting thing is that, like, when I, when I talk to my patients, when I work with patients, most of them know, just like you said, like, they know that, like, drinking every day is not a good idea that using pot every day is not a good idea. They'll even realize that, like, oh, my anxiety is actually getting worse and I've become chemically dependent on marijuana. And, and then, like, even though they know that, they still wake up

and on a given day, like that anxiety they experience is so bad that they like can't, they literally like can't stop. Right. And they happen. It becomes a routine. Yeah.

It's like a routine. So it's kind of interesting to hear you say one day I woke up and I just, eh, didn't do it anymore. Well, it's not like, it was like a buildup. It's like I was meant, it's like I was mentally conditioning myself every day,

like tweaking like little knobs and, there's other things that went into me helping. I don't know if I can talk about them but it's like I was tweaking knobs in my brain a little bit every day and then eventually I got it to like I'm like reading things you know like listening to lectures

like talking to people like that and kind of like trying to tweak my view like a little bit every day and eventually it's like I got my mind to like the view I needed to just stop. It's not like I just woke and I'm like here I am. It's like, you know, I had to work on it for sure. And so what I'm kind of curious on is

if your mind is, you said you got your mind to get the view that you needed. Yes. Which implies that there is some kind of force within you that is guiding your mind. I mean, don't we all we have our inner monologue or ego? I don't know. What would you? Because when you say you got your mind to where it needed to go, what is the part of you that knew? where you needed to go. I mean, the part where it's like, I know I don't like how I feel, like when I smoke all the time or when I drink all the time. Like, obviously, I don't want to say it's like a moral barometer is not the right word,

but it's like, you know it's not right, you know, and like, and you don't feel right. What would you call that part of yourself? Because it sounds like it's actually not a part of your mind. Um, because if that is, is what you would call it? Yeah, it's your ego. How would you? Okay. So it's an inner monologue.

So you wouldn't, you would separate your inner monologue from your mind? Um, I mean, you remember. I mean, your inner monologue is you. That's who you, that's, that's your mind, isn't it? Isn't it? I mean, you could say like your mind is like your subconscious and like all these other things that are like going into it, right? But like your inner monologue is like your mind that's like on the forefront, right?

What does that mean on the forefront? Or it's like the one that's like active that you can like, like you can like, like you can. you know they have like conversations with yourself and like all that kind like it's the one that you're I don't see you interact with but it's like the one that you like it's like the loudest you know like the one that you can yeah I know the subconscious plays like a big big effect at all this kind of stuff too but so when you say inner monologue you're talking about thoughts in your head a conversation between two parts of you yes I see and and so one of those and you would call one one of those, your ego. Yeah, ego is who you are.

Like, it's, I mean, that's basically what it is. It's your, who your identity is a person, right? Like, to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So personally, I would say that who you are and your identity are two separate things. To yourself. I mean, not to, obviously, like, your identity to other people is much different than the

thoughts that are going on in your head and, you know, that you think. Yeah, so I would say that your ego and who you are or two separate things. What would you define like, uh, so what would you define the ego as? The sense of I. So like I have a sense of who I am, right? Yes. Like I have a construction in my mind about who I am. Yep.

But that, yeah, but you're like, that's what I'm talking about like, I'm chisling away, like at that identity. Because you can get locked into like, this is who I. am or like this is what I do every day or like this is my routine you know yeah so and so who's doing the chiseling if you're chiseling on your identity who is it that's doing chiseling uh i'm not i mean it's like uh i mean my me just being self-aware and it's like i'm aware that i want to change this and that's just the only way i know how is like my little like gradual changes Yes. So if you look at the yogic model, which is going to be consistent with like Zen Buddhism,

they would say that there are more, we'll highlight three right now. There are three discrete parts of your like internal experience. One is awareness. One is identity and one is mind. Okay. That's why you were like trying to separate them. Okay, I guess you. Yeah.

And I think you, you know, it sounds like you actually know that. It's just it's an issue of vocabulary and like precision in terms of our language. But you know, like it's the part of you that is aware of stuff that is sort of like looking from the outside. And if you're chiseling away at your identity, that makes perfect sense. And also when you kind of talk a little bit about inner monologue, right? Like it's sort of like there's a part of you that is aware of stuff. And that awareness can only exist in the present. Whereas if you think about the identity, the identity is something that's a little.

little bit more longitudinal. Your sense of identity by necessity involves, or not by necessity, but generally speaking, involves things from the past and things in the future. And also your mind has things in the past and things in the future. But awareness can only exist in the present. And that if you are in the present, then you would be sitting more in awareness. And that's kind of something I was talking about earlier, I guess. Yep. Exactly. So that's how I would, that's how I would arrange these puzzle pieces, which it sounds like you understand, you know,

it sounds like we're talking about the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you mentioned that there are certain things that you may not be able to talk about. I was kind of confused about that. Um, you don't have to talk about it. I'm just confused why you wouldn't be able to talk about something.

Is that like a personal barrier or like a TOS thing or what? Uh, not personal barrier. Okay, fine. I don't really care. Actually, I'll talk about it. Just like, okay, let's say you talked about the ice beside and stuff, right? And this is, okay, I'm going to get like maybe, I don't get a murder for this, but it's like, okay, I feel like I'm on the spectrum a little bit, and I feel like a lot of gamers are on the spectrum a little bit

and sense of like very hard to deal with like empathy and like missing social cues and, you know, all that jazz. And it's like, that's something I had to deal with. I was watching, yeah, that's why I mentioned the Ice Beside episode is, I feel like I had to deal a lot with that when I was like in high school and also like in my earlier years in my relationships with people.

And it's like, that's another like knob I had to like try to tweak as like I went through this whole process. And yeah, like also in this whole process like one of the things I did I ended up that I'm fine talking about is like I ended up doing like MDMA to like help me with like this. And, like, that kind of, like, helped me understand, like, logically, like, what empathy is. And, like, help me, like, also bring, like, a different level of happiness and, like, the way that, like, I think, like, before in, like, my earlier years, like, it was, like, the vice and, like, the cycles and all this other things that, like, I want to say it brought me happiness.

But, like, it gave me a new look on, like, what can create happiness in my life and, like, the feelings of that. Like, basically, it's, like, when I was on it, it, uh, I was like, I was like, I was like, like, I was like, I want to, I was thinking, what makes me happy, like, in this moment besides, like, the chemical effects and all that. And I came to the conclusion, it's that it's the experiences that I'm having with other people and, like, sharing an experience and, like, caring about other people and all that kind of, you know, and that's, like, what brought me happiness, right? So, like, before my earlier years, I had trouble with empathy, right? And now it's, like, logically, I can logically empathize with people because like I have that understanding of like like I can logically like

piece I can like piece it out like this is what it means to like care you know yeah yeah but that's like that's like one of the things that also like help me break me out of the cycle and like help me a lot yeah I was wondering if you were talking about psychedelics so I think you know just to toss out a couple of things one is that so I've actually had so there there are lots there's lots of research ongoing I don't know if you follow any of this stuff. There's an organization called the Multifluid. Yeah. Yeah.

So we act like the, I have a good relationship with the person who founded and runs maps. He actually came on stream like six, eight months ago to talk about the work they were doing. And so Rick is a phenomenal guy. I think there's a lot of recognition now within the psychiatric community that some of these substances have, like, potential to improve lives. I think you've got to be, so I've had actually patients who have had like lifelong addictions who have gone to treatment facilities outside of the United States and have had really amazing healing experiences.

And I've also had patients who using these experiences have developed permanent and crippling like mental health disorders. Yeah. It's definitely, yeah. I mean, it's definitely, It's definitely something I feel like you have to go in with the, I don't want to say a purpose, but it's like a lot of people can use like that type of stuff as like a form of escapism in its own as well. I think that's like when the issue comes in. Yeah.

I mean, so just, you know, for anyone listening out there, I wouldn't recommend like, you know, because I think your mileage may vary and we just really don't know what's safe. And I've seen, you know, we hear, I've seen success stories and I've seen like really dangerous things happen to people. I have definitely seen it too. Yep. So would not recommend it. I think for people who are curious, I actually just had a conversation with someone at MAPS this week. And I was a little bit curious about, you know, when do you think that FDA approval in the United States for some of these things could happen? Could happen as early as 2022.

So we may be looking at, you know, they're in phase three clinical trials. So like, you know, people may be able to use these in a therapeutic manner within the next year under guidance and like, you know, being assured of the. quality of what you're getting and stuff like that because that's a huge issue. Well, they're already doing it for like PTSD patients and stuff, aren't they? Trials. Trials. Okay. Okay. So phase three clinical trials is the last stage of clinical trials before something gets approved as a treatment.

Okay. Okay. That makes sense. And then you can, you know, so I advise everyone to wait until you can do it in a safe way. So Dr. Kay is saying invest in trim stocks. Yeah, I wouldn't listen to me in terms of I mean, stock advice. Yeah. But what, so can you tell us a little bit when you said that like, you know, you related to some of what Ice Poseidon was saying.

Like, what was your experience in high school? My high school, it's, oh, I'll just like kind of talk earlier, kind of like how it was basically my parents got divorced when I was like younger and they were both working. I had three sisters. So we had a big family. So my parents, they were working both full-time jobs. And so, like, then they come up from work to be, like, super tired, right? So basically my relationship with them is, like, non-existent, you know?

So I would just, like, go off to my room and, like, play games all the time 24-7. And I did have a small group of friends, like, I would hang out with and all that. But it's, like, I feel like that that whole, like, situation definitely hurt my ability to understand, like, I don't know say like what a like a normal human being relationship is you know like

the yeah all the little ins and outs of it and that definitely like carried over and like throughout like my whole life and I guess so in high school and all that you know

being pro gamer just a lot of experiences and that's something like I've always like been battling with and that's why I brought up like the what is something you've been battling with I just how to explain it

Um, I feel like, especially like earlier in my life, it was very difficult to have what I would call like a normal, like, what I think like the, like the, I don't want to say like the template, but like a template friendship with somebody or like, inter, like the relationship with somebody or can. Can you explain how that was hard for you? But like what would happen? What does that look like? Empathy was like extreme. Like, I like basically felt like no empathy. Um, um, It's like, it was very hard for me to like understand like how the other person was feeling or like and like I would miss social cues a lot. Like I would just say like random stuff that like would like hurt them, you know, or like do random things that would hurt them. And like I couldn't like understand like it didn't mentally process to me, you know? Can you tell me a story about that just to illustrate so I can because you're giving me kind of a conclusion? I was hoping to get a little bit more raw data. A story? I'll just use something that's in the public.

When I was like a pro gamer, I would get drunk all the time and there's like a incident that's out there where I ended up arguing with one of my teammates and it was on, like, we had cameras set up all throughout our house and like we'd pretty much stream or stream is 24-7, which is a ridiculous idea of course. And I ended up like fighting with one of my teammates that was like, it was actually my good friend.

Like I really liked the guy. And I just said like a bunch of shit that was like really hurtful and like being to him and uh yeah and then it's like I look back on it now and it's like uh yeah and like in the moment like I don't understand like any of the stuff that's going on like obviously I'm drunk too but it's like I can't I don't like understand the situation you know and like that's like been like a recurring theme like throughout my like whole life so I don't know what's it like to live a life where you don't understand the situation Well, it's like I understand the situation, but I don't understand, like, the feelings involved.

That's, like, a better way of... Looks like you felt something just now. Yeah, now I... That's what I, like, I brought up the end of the... It's ridiculous, but yeah, yeah. It's like, I can, yeah, like, now, like, I can, like, logically... It's, like, more of, like, a logical feeling, and then it, like, that, like, that, like, triggers, and it's like, oh, yeah, I'm supposed to feel this.

It's like, it's really weird. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I don't know. But it's definitely been like something I've like had to deal with like a very, very, very, a lot of difficult stuff in my early 20s with it. Can you tell me a little bit more about growing up? So you said you have three sisters, older, younger? I have one older. She's a psychiatrist too.

And two younger. So. And then yeah, my mom and my dad. And what was it like growing up in, in your household? Well, before my parents got divorced, who were like the normal family, you know, pretty normal stuff, dad get home from work, hang out with him. Like my mom just stay at home, take care of the kids, big family.

And then like one day my dad, like, he had like a really good job. And he's like, I'm going to quit. He told my mom like, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to go like start my, I'm going to go start a business. And my mom's like, wait, you have like three kids. you can't do that. You know, like, you have to like pay for everybody, right? Like, and then he's just like, well, screw this.

I'm out. And he just, like, feast out and, like, started his own business. And, uh, yeah. And then, like, there's like a whole, like, you know, all that, like, the divorce turmoil with that. And did the divorce? I think you said both of your parents worked growing up. Yeah.

So, like, after the divorce, like, my mom's working full time. I see. Yeah. And then my dad's working full time. So it's like, and then we'd bounce back and forth between like who have custody of us and like, you know, and when they come home from work, like they're just burnt out. They're like, like, my dad's like trying to make this, get this business off the ground. And my mom's like trying to work full time and like take care of like three kids. So it's like I don't really have like that relationship with them, you know.

How old were you when they got divorced? Um, I think it was like eight or nine probably. Yeah. And what was your understanding of why they got divorced? I understood what was going on at the time. I mean, I was young, but it's like, I don't understand like the, the, like, I look back on it. Now I can like, I try to put, you know, put myself in both of the people's shoes. It's like, why did my dad, you know, leave and do this?

And like, try to think like why my mom, like, what was she going through? Like, obviously I understand the situation better now, but it's like. What did you think at the time? At the time, I think of my dad, I think my, I think my, I mean, I thought my dad was just like seeing some like woman or something like that. You know, like, that's like how you always see like, you cheated on me, like that kind of thing, like on the movies and the shows and all that. But it's like, I kind of like more understand of why, like, why he did it and like why he left more. It's not just like something like that.

So he, when you say left, you're not talking about the job. He left his job. And my mom like refused to let him quit his job, right? I see. Yeah. And so they got in a big fight over that. And then they, my dad just like, I'm going to do this no matter what. And he just ended up leaving to go do it.

Got it. So, yep. But that's like an interesting thing. It's because like he's like putting himself before like his like kids as a relationship, all that kind of stuff. So it's like that's something like it. Is that how you see it? Well, yeah, that's like, I mean, you can see it as like he's like trying to go like,

I can make more money in the future or I can feel more self-fulfilled. Basically, it's like something where that person is, like, trying to self-fulfill. Like, find like a new purpose, a different purpose. You know what I mean? So. Have you ever talked to him about that? Yeah, I talked to him about it. My relationship with my family is good.

It's not like, there's no, like, bad blood or hurt or anything like that. And what's your understanding of, of after having talked to him? How does he, how did he kind of share what his experience of that was? Well, I pretty much just said what I just told you now. And he's just like, I mean, because I don't want to like just, I don't, I don't like just like going after people without like, I want to like try to try to empathize and understand like their position before I'm just like, you know, screw you, man, like that kind of thing. And so. And so like I talked to him about it. Like I understand like why he did it.

and it's like, but it's still like hurtful that, you know, he would put himself before like the three kids. Like if you make, yeah, three kids. Like obviously you're responsible for them, you know? Like you've accepted that responsibility. And it's like basically you're like casting off that responsibility like that life changing. Experience of having kids and stuff. You're basically just like running away from things, you know? Yeah. So, Brandon, I'm asking you, because you're saying you try to understand, right?

Yes. Try to understand other people's perspective. That's the goal, correct? Yes. So you're telling this story. Yeah. In the story, he's the bad guy. I don't want to say he's a bad. I don't like the idea of bad guy or a good guy. I understand, but the way that you're telling the story, I think that's the way he's coming across.

Yes. Right? Yes. So in an effort to understand, I'm asking you, if you guys talk to you guys talk to you, about it. What did he say? I mean, he basically like confirmed what like kind of stuff I'm talking about right now. And obviously he's like apologetic. And yeah, I mean, it's like difficult to to like understand like what a person is thinking.

And he kind of talked about like feeling trapped. And yeah, because like, you know, it's pretty easy for people to get like trapped in their life situations and people try to escape in like all sorts of different ways. Sure. And this is his way. You know all about that, right? Yes. So this is,

this is his way of escaping. Yeah. What do you think about him feeling trapped? I mean, doesn't everybody feel trapped in life at some point? So I don't know. What I'm confused about how that statement relates to my question. Right? So you're a, how do I feel like it's like it's understandable.

That's how I feel about it. I mean, I don't know. And that's interesting. That goes back to like the logic thing. It's like I don't. Yep. I'm going to pause you there for a second because I think you actually meant the exact opposite. Is it?

Yep. So this is, so let's understand your communication, what you say and what your logical mind tells you and maybe what your emotional feeling tells you. So I asked you, how do you feel about him feeling trapped? And then you're like, doesn't everyone feel that way? And the interesting thing about that, if I really had to kind of like, if I had to put my money somewhere, what I'd say is that it doesn't like, everyone deals with this shit and like they all manage. So like he should have learned how to deal with it too. I know it sounds kind of weird, but that's the emotion that I got from you.

Yes. And then when I ask you what you mean, you say, well, it's understandable. Whereas like actually what I'm hearing from you is like the exact opposite that like he should have manned up and. You know, everyone deals with that. And, like, we all deal with it. Like, he should have dealt with it too. Yes, I can, yes, I understand. You see how the logic and the feeling are a little bit

may be different there? Yes, I can see. What do you think about that? Uh, maybe, I'm even just, like, wording it wrong. It's like, I, I don't want to say, like, I try to, like, solidify like what he did but it's like I'm trying to like understand like why he would do it and it's not like I'm giving approval of one way or another it's just like okay I see why you did it I don't think you should have done it but it's like I get it that's like more like the interaction

that's going on here yeah so Brandon let me know if I step if I step out of line okay okay so here's what I'm hearing from you okay here's what I'm noticing and you let me know what you think. Okay. So I'm hearing that you had some difficulty like connecting to people, understanding people, and that you maybe spent some time escaping from unclear exactly what you're escaping from, something like an addictive personality. And then you've actually like worked at it, right? Like you read philosophy, you studied things. You, you know, had mind-altering experiences. You've engaged in relationships. You've done a lot of self-reflection. You join the military. You've done a lot of things to try to grow as a person.

and now you've gotten a lot better at understanding other people to the point where it sounds like you have an SO, so good job. You know, I'm hearing that you have relationships and things like that. So you've like learned and grown a lot when it comes to like developing empathy. You can cry now. Right? Like these are the things that you've, you've leveled up. Fair? Yes.

So interestingly enough, what I'm actually finding is like something kind of weird that's happening, which is that I think the next phase of what you need to understand is more internal as opposed to like understanding other people's points of view. Because that statement that you tossed out, I think is a good example of where all of your lessons of empathy have actually are actually like reshaping some of your instinctive responses to be like and then like blind you to your own experience of stuff. Oh, you think I should be like more bitter towards like what happened or like more aware of like that feeling?

I understand what you're getting at, but it's like, do you think that I should be like experiencing a more powerful feeling of like against? Like, so we're just talking about the dad's situation, right? You think I should be more like in tune with like feeling against like this or like with my feeling of like that I'd like disagree with it or what do you? I think you should have more awareness of the way that you feel. Well, I'm definitely aware how I feel on it. And I definitely disagree with it. And I'm aware that like all the, trust me, I'm aware of all like the turmoil

that like the divorce brought me and like my family and my mom and my sisters and all that. I'm definitely aware of that. But it's like, it's been, it's such ancient history. It's so long ago that it's like I feel like, I'm a very forgiving person, you know. And I understand that like I'm not the same person today that I was yesterday and I'm not going to be

the same person tomorrow, you know, that I am today. And it's more like that I, it hurt me, but it's like, I'm okay to like move past it. Sure. That's more like what I'm like pushing out when I, when I say it like that. Yep. Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely aware of like how about to hurt me. Yeah.

So, you know, just to push back a little bit on that, Brandon, which you're saying makes perfect sense. Now we're going to get a little bit nuanced, okay? So I think I, I think you've genuinely forgiven your father. I think that like you said, you know, you're not. making him out to be an asshole. You can understand he felt trapped. Like, he sounds like he's a good dude. Like, we don't want to. And so that's why it's kind of weird because I, I don't, I think you've forgiven him. I don't know if you've moved past him. In what way? Well, just because the way that

you talk about it, right? So, like, when you tell the story, and this is why I'm asking you for stories, because I think you've got like a really good, you've done a really good job of like constructing what you want to believe. And you can tap into that. And at the same time, time, like, when you tell the story, it like, you make him sound, like, it's not, the story is not, like, one of understanding. It's one of like, yeah, he kind of fucked up there. But he did. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Right. So, so, so, so, and that's fine too, right? And, and, and, and so, it's, it's, like, weird. I think it's like, it's very subtle. So I, it's clear that you've done a lot of work. And so I think that like the more we learn about ourselves like the higher we climb right like in terms of

our league and then like you're at you're at like challenger level now in terms of like self growth and self-awareness and i don't know about that but i hope someday yeah right because i'm still detecting a lot of emotion essentially that you carry with you yes so i don't get the sense that you're at peace about it have you forgiven yes do you you You live your life, yes. I mean, it's not something that, I guess it's like, this is not something I think about. It's like, it's like I said, it's so long ago.

Like, I'm an, I'm an old fart, just like you. It's just, it's, it's too much of a lifetime ago, you know? And it's like, I understand like it shaped me as the person I am. And it's like, I don't want to say, like, maybe I find resentment in like how it shaped me as a person in like my earlier years. More than maybe that's like what's coming through. but it's not like an active thing that I'm like against. I get that.

I don't, I'm not trying to demonize your dad or try to convince you that you hate him because I genuinely do think you're in a good place. I do hate him now. You convince me. I hate him now. But I, so tell me a little bit about,

um, what it was like after they got divorced and what it was like. Yeah. Uh, with the family. Uh, well, uh,

they would like take turns like, custody, like sometimes, I think there was like one time, like me and my older sister stay with my dad for a couple of years and then like my little sisters would stay with my mom or like, and then like my mom would have like full custody of all of us. And like they're like constantly fighting in courts about like random financial stuff. And like they were literally like always going to court and always like always fighting. And yeah. So I got pretty much just like deflected from all that. I took up the the whole like just. shout myself in my room and play video games all the time, you know, like, I got StarCraft.

I got cable modem. Like, let's go. You know, like, and then I started interacting with people. What did you play in StarCraft? Oz, uh, pro das. Nice. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, so it's like I had the internet.

I had the internet like at a very early time, like when it's like fledging state. And I was like interacting with people on there and like making friends on there and basically using it like that, that world. as a form of escape. Sure. And so what were you escaping from? Just dealing with like my family, like fighting all the time. And just I just like didn't, I guess I didn't know how to like process at all.

And I just and also like I just really liked playing games. Like I like the puzzle solving aspect. You know, like I'm trying to like figure out how to to solve this puzzle like to win. at all costs kind of thing. So do you have a sense of, I mean, like, so you said dealing with it. Do you like, what was it like when you had to deal with it? What was it like to go to court and? I never went to court with them.

But like, you would always hear, I got always hear about it. And then my parents would always be complaining about it was like, oh, your mom or your dad. And then like, and I would never see them half the time anyways. It's like I said, they'd come up for work. They'd be like super tired. And I mean, I know. I never really felt like I had like a deep or meaningful conversations with my parents at any point like in my younger years, you know? Like not in like the way of like that I think like your normal person does.

Like there was no birds in the beast conversation. You know, there's no like life conversations or anything like that. So like nothing like preparing me for anything like that kind of stuff. And I definitely feel like that kind of like carried over into like my interactions with people. And you know, there was like no parenting going on there. You know, it's just like, well, we fed you, like, go have that air. Like, we, you know, got your school supplies. Like, good luck.

Yeah. What was it like to grow up without parents? I mean, it's like I said, I just, it's just like figure it out on your own kind of thing. So, and, yeah, just, it's like definitely like trial and error kind of thing, you know? Yeah. certainly sounds like a fair amount of error. Yeah, fair amount of error. We got there.

And what was it like being in high school? Can you tell me a little bit about that? High school, I would literally just stay up all night. I was like a decent student. I was in like honors classes and all that mess. Gifted. Yeah, I was gifted but not using it. So I would like when I was in school,

I would literally be asleep like 75% of the time. Because I would just stay up all night and play games. And, yeah, and then I just came to a point where, like, I said, like my parents are at work all the time. Like, they would, like, are you going to go on the bus or like your friend would pick you up for school? And then one day I just like just stopped going. And I just was like, I don't feel like going to school anymore.

I just stopped going to school. And that was like my senior year. I just stopped going and then they said like, you know, you failed, you failed high, you failed high school. You got to like take this year over again. And then I just said, screw it. And I just got my GED and then started doing like the community college and all that. Do you remember how you felt in senior year of high school?

That was when I was playing World of Warcraft. And so I was just addicted to itself. Like I was, you know, I just, that's all I wanted to do. That's like the only thing that mattered to me. I was like real loss in the sauce Okay So I remember like I was dating this girl at the time And this is when the game just came out

I was like hey I'm like the first level Whatever hunter 50 hunter on my server you know And I didn't talk to her see her for like two weeks straight I was like so lost in the sauce She's just like oh that's nice like I think we need to break up I was like what? You know like that kind of thing

So Yeah it's just like I just became like super lost in the sauce And then I let like all my like real world like I had a small group of friends But the friends just became like people that I just played the games with you know So like all my real real relationships like suffered like heavily because of it Yeah so I'm I'm curious during that time when you were lost in the sauce as you put it Were you overwhelmed by thoughts of the future and past when you stepped out of the sauce

Oh definitely like I didn't I definitely wasn't enjoying school and I didn't know like future wise what I wanted to do. I had like, you know, like, that's like when the time of people like, well, I'm going to go major in this and going to become this and that. And it's like, I don't know what the hell I want to do, you know? And obviously, I can't have that conversation with my parents because they're just like Mia. So it's just like, well, I'm just not going to deal with this. I'm going to go braid blackwing layer. Yeah. So that's like, that was just like basically like what was going on. So those dragons ain't going to farm themselves.

You know what I'm saying? Exactly, man. Yeah. Exactly. Ragneros isn't going to, isn't going to down himself. You got to do it for him. Exactly. You got to pay the bills on Nazaroth.

Yeah. So just kind of thinking about it a little bit. I'm wondering, Brandon, if, like, so sometimes like, you. You know, when we think about kid who's not going to class at all, skipping classes, like, sure, there's a certain amount of world of Warcraft escapism, but, you know, the word depression pops into my mind when I hear about that situation. What do you think about that word? I want to say I was sad, but it's like...

You were sad or you weren't sad? The only thing that bothered me in like that sense was that, uh, well, it's like we talked, I talked about earlier, like, I've had a very difficult time with empathy. So if I did have a real world friendship, I didn't understand how to have the friendship in the sense of like getting the value out of it that you should have from like a real friendship.

Like because I didn't understand like the value behind like the shared experiences. Caring about the other person like deeply, you know, like their well-being, all that kind of stuff. And it's like so because I didn't, I didn't have that emotion. emotional and mental capacity at the time, it kind of like made those type of friendships like devoid a meeting for me. And that's like,

I don't want to say I was sad about it, but it's like I felt like definitely something was missing there, you know? So you did feel like something was missing. Yes, yes. And then so like because that thing is missing, I would go like play wow. And then it's like my value becomes like, oh, you're really good at doing GPS to this raid.

So I want to, you know, like I want to have this person around or like, or like that person's funny, you know? Like, that's how I'm creating, yeah, I'm creating value to the people in like in that way, you know? So it's a, it's a silly thing, but yeah. I don't think it's very silly at all. Well, the whole situation is definitely silly. What's silly about the situation? It's just like the way that you can, the way that I was like talking to another friend about this recently and it's like, he said he picked up all these hobbies and like,

skill sets because he thought that like that's how he would he'd be useful to people like they want him around you know and it's like uh and he says he says he like still like carries that to this day but it's like it detracts from like it's real relationships with people because it's like in the back of his mind it's like oh this person maybe wants me because like I'm good at music or like I can fix this thing and he's like it's that's always something in the back of his mind yeah so that's another one of those statements that I think you say to mean one thing, but I'm hearing a different interpretation. What do you mean?

The acquisition of real life skills makes potentially your relationships based on shallowness and what you can bring to the other person. Well, no, like, that's what he's telling himself. Like, it's not actually true. Okay, okay. Yeah, it's not actually true. But like, that's how he feels. Yeah, yeah.

And whereas in your case, I mean, I didn't think that was silly at all because in your case of what I'm hearing is a, you know, a kid who doesn't have, value in the real world and you get to be someone that people want to be around and who care about you and want you to show up every day. Because like, you know, when you don't go to class for a week, like, what do the teachers do? Uh, I mean, when I was, did show up? I just sleep, so they just like left me a lot. Right? So like when, when you did not hold up to your responsibilities, who cared? Exactly. Nobody cared. And then in Wow, when you misclick and, you know, I don't know what hunters do that could wipe a raid, but, you know, when you don't pull properly or whatever, like, they care, right?

Like, people care, either in a good way or a bad way. But I'm hearing that you were like, I can see that. Your presence was noted in some way. Yes. Whereas, like, when you went to school, like, you might. I mean, they might as well have been robots, like, for as much as people seem to notice or give a shit. Yes. I can definitely see what you're talking about.

Did you act out at all? When I was in middle school and elementary school, like, when the divorce and stuff was first happening, I was, like, very class clown, kind of just always just saying random stuff and trying to make people laugh. Like, that was, like, my value that I, that's why I, like, mentioned value before is, like, I kind of mentally noted that as, like, I'm, I kind of mentally noted that. like, it's like, why did I do that? It's like, because I'm looking for a way of giving value to people, right? And like, that's the way that like, that basically became like the interaction. It's like, I make people laugh. So it's like, that was like my purpose.

I don't know. But then, yeah, it's like, once I got into games, I'm like sleeping all the time. So I can't even do that. Yeah. Yeah. And so what about the ice beside an interview kind of like resonated with you? Class clown thing. and then like he was talking about how he had like Asperger's and stuff and like just a lot of the is this I mean I've like read up on this type of stuff before like I genuinely think that like most professional gamers have been our own the spectrum in some way like in the sense of like the way that like obsessive behavior like and a lot of them have like empathy issues a lot of them a lot of like the mis like social cues like social.

Like social school is really hard. And like this all can develop in like some way, shape, or form, right? So it's definitely something of like I've noted of myself and like other people I've interacted with like throughout the years. And it's like it's like something. I don't know if it's like learned behavior. It's like I missed out on the ability to like learn about this stuff from like previous points in my life. Or it's because it's something I was born with. But it's definitely like something I've had to like adjust and deal with.

And yeah, and that's like, I guess like the parallels that like that was like pulling from that. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, my take on that is something I think about a lot. I've also worked with a fair number of pro gamers. You know, my money is actually more on the learned behavior part. So while it's possible that like, you know, all the pro gamers out there are on the autism spectrum or a fair number of them. I think that especially with.

So the confusion around. empathy and building social relationships, that symptom has multiple diagnoses that can lead to it. Yes. Being on the spectrum is one of them. But I think that, like, I know for myself, like, I don't know. I mean, I certainly wasn't very empathic as a, you know, like in high school and stuff. And I was fucking confused when it came to college. Like, I didn't know how to talk to a girl.

I didn't really know how to make friends. Like, my friends in high school, like, the reason I made friends with them is because none of us knew how to make friends with anyone else. Yeah. Right. That's what I mentioned. It's like, I don't know if it's like a learned be.

Yep. In both of our instances, it could be learned behavior. That could be something like in my case, I'm like born with. It could be like a mixture of both. Like absolutely. So I think that there's there's enough consistency. And if you look at the statistics around like how common autism is or some being on the autism spectrum, you know, I guess that this is a pattern.

that is, so autism is in the minority of the population. Playing video games is now in the majority of population. Definitely. And having social difficulties and difficulty with empathy is also in the majority of gamers. Yep. So just looking at that statistically, it makes me lean towards things like, so like, you know, like, let me just share like a theory. that I have for lack of a better.

I'm just going to toss this out. Hopefully, it'll illustrate the point. Is that okay? Yeah, go for you. So when we form online relationships, so like I guess this is why gamers are socially anxious, okay? So when we form online relationships, we tend to form, like, there are parts of our brain

that govern, like, empathy and, like, you know, understanding social cues and things like that, that actually, like, get rusty. because when I talk to you on Discord, like I don't see your face, I don't understand your body language, I get a little bit of tone. So I spend a lot of time playing video games.

And there's also like a set of things in the game that make me know whether I'm valued or not. Right? Like if I'm crushing mid, I know that people are going to like me. Right? Like it's easy. Like I understand what my value is in this given situation.

I also don't have to do. deal with like facial expressions and stuff like that. Also, games tend to be like really, really logical. So what happens is like when I interact with people online, it seems to be easier because my brain sort of knows how to do that. And then what happens when gamers go and like they interact with real people is like something weird happens. So generally speaking, the regular humans automatically their brain interprets things like body language and tone and like other kinds of things that reassure the regular human. The problem with the gamer is that all of those circuits have been like turned off for a while.

So we are not able to be reassured by like the signals that are like other human brains are able to be reassured by. And so what we do in our minds is fill it in with logical processing. So then it becomes a problem to be solved. And we're like hyper analyzing every interaction. So since the emotional part of our brain is not able to like interpret a signal of like, you know, if someone. you know, like invites me. Like, we just can't process all of these like empathic signals. So instead, what we do is we become hyper anxious, which is like overly logical reasoning into all of these different random things.

And the problem is that, you know, logical processing is just not a good way to interpret bodily signals. It's like how you get into all this kind of, you know, weird like dating pickup artists. Like, if the girl does this, it means it's like all this. It's a logical construction that's a substitute for a. far better empathic circuit that is like rusty. What do you think about that? I can agree with that. And I definitely understand what coming from.

And I'll just like, I'll guess I'll like to talk about experience. Yeah, I'd love to hear that. Okay. So we had like one of our teams like counterlogic gaming, you know, we're the, we're the turbo sweaty nerds. And we ended up going off to Korea to like play in this, this couple month long tournament. So we're all living together, right? And so we're living together for months. And it's like there's like major issues of like fighting all the time. And that's like why I bring up like the

social queue thing. It's not just like restricted to like online, but it's like when we are in, in, in person, it's like literally we like can't even like process each other. You know, it's like we're just a bunch of like malfunctioning robots. Like, yeah. So it. It's. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It's like, I feel like it probably does talk a lot about like what you're saying, where it's like, are we've been online so long. And like we've had those relationship online and we know how to interact online. Now like once we're in person and there's like the cues and stuff, like the facial expressions, the body language, all that kind of stuff.

Like that's like out the window, right? And yeah. And then I remember like at the end of the trip, like after we got done with the. tournament, one of the, like, the players and the team, they're like, what we need to do now is, like, we need to go back and get a gaming house and live with each other. It's like, no, you know, yeah. So it's like, yeah, like, after all that kind of stuff. So it's just, I mean, and then I've seen it like, I've, you know, coach teams and been around teams for a long time. You see, like, all these other gamers, like, living with each other. And I feel like a lot of them, like, can't

process, like, dealing with each other. any or like any situation and it's like I don't know I just like seen it too much you know yeah so it's interesting because I've seen a lot of it too it's it's amazing how much how long of away a little bit of instruction goes so there's data that supports so like they did a good trial on I think like 12,000 students from grade 1 to 12 maybe what what yeah you seem like you're thinking something funny. Not just glance at our chat. And somebody's like, no,

but there's data that shows that if you take, I think they did a trial where they took 12,000 students and 6,000 of the students were taught social and emotional skills training as a class. Like, in addition to history and mathematics and things like that.

The interesting thing is that if you teach people how to, like, interact with each other, it's worth one letter grade. So they're, Their GPA actually goes up by 1.1 points. This is something that would never happen in America, right? Is this class in America? This is a trial that was done in America.

I think it was done in America. Okay, okay. This doesn't sound like America. It doesn't sound like America. But I think the trial actually is in America. I'd have to find the reference again, but I think it was done here. Maybe Europe. But it's interesting because when I, you know, when I work with e-sports teams, it's like,

we'll, like, spend some time, like, learning how to communicate. and boy, does it help? You know, the sample size is still relatively small, but I would love to do a study that actually, the problem is that there's so much variability in performance, you know, in terms of like tournament placement, there are so many factors that it's hard to say that this is responsible for an improvement.

Well, a lot of teams have like mental coaches and like psychologists and a lot of people that are like, it's definitely come a long way since like when I was playing. So it's definitely, it's there. know about it. Yeah. And it's it's crazy to see like how far a little bit of education goes and like processing and and teaching people like how to communicate and recognize each other's like issues. How it really brings a team together. It's it's been interesting to see that. But yeah. So it sounds like you were can you tell me a little bit about the Navy and how you decided to do that?

Well, I was going community college at the time. All my friends had like moved off to like go to state school. And so I like didn't have any friends at the time like in the area. And like all the people would hang out with those like online playing games. And I was going to like do the two years and then go to like state school, like do like transfer program. And I was just like really because it just felt like high school to seekel, you know, where it's like I got to go and I got to do these stupid classes. and then I like display games all night

and it's literally just like I'm just carrying out the same experience except this time I don't have my IRL friends to like help me deal with it you know so one day I just like saw a pamphlet when I was like walking out of class and yeah they got me man

the brainwash and and I just like I was like all right I want to change my life dramatically I'm like so I just got to get out of here right and I just told my mom like I'm going to go I signed up for the Navy. Like, I'm, I'm going to leave in a month. And I just went off to boot camp and it was definitely a, well, I mean, I wasn't going,

I wasn't like being in the Army or Marines. I'm not, like, going off to, like, shoot people. Like, my job was, you know, I was more of the technical side. So she was like, at first she was like, not going to explain to her. I'm like, this is what I'm going to be doing. And she's like, okay, like, just be careful, you know, like that kind of thing. So, yeah, then I went off in the military, which is definitely an interesting experience. Like, there's a lot of crazy people in the military in like some way, shape, or form.

And you definitely experience, like, people from all walks of life. And you're, like, kind of forced into this, like, jumble mess together. And, yeah, and I got to travel a lot, which is a good experience. You know, I get to, like, experience a lot of different cultures. and a lot of life experiences. But it was definitely extremely stressful. It was probably like most stressful experience of my life. What was stressful?

What was stressful about it? You have no. Okay, let's say I'm like, hey, you need to go here tomorrow or whatever. And so you can't say no. Or like you need to do this. You can't say no. So like basically no matter what, you have to do like whatever's happening or going on or what's saying.

you have no control over your life. Does that make sense? So it's like you're at the whim of other people and the military doesn't have a lot of smart people. Are there smart people in there? There's a lot of people in the military that are just in there in their position because of time. They're like, well, I've been in here for a lot of years.

And it's like, oh, no, this guy's in charge of me. And it's like, yeah, like that kind of stuff. Wow. It's just, yeah. It's a zoo for sure. And then it's all the normal stuff. Like you have to like train for like combat and like yeah. One thing in the Navy you get like gas chambered, whatever, you have to like get tear gas and like you get to your gas and like a bunch of stuff like that.

Like and then boot camp is really stressful. Stressful is not a word that I usually hear used to describe boot camp. like mental turmoil like what what can you help me understand that what was what's the turmoil in boot camp like I've heard it's hard but usually when I think like stress I think like paying bills at the end of the month or maybe I'm going to get kicked out of college or like I think about stress yeah yeah go ahead so when you fuck up they do what's called beating you where they just like work you out into the ground to where it's like literally the only way that they'll stop you from working

out is you get carried away in an ambulance. And then you get charged for the ambulance or something like that. Yeah. So like, yeah. And it's like, I don't want to have that happen. It can be, they'd like beat you over like random stuff. Like this button isn't button this in many centimeters to like this degree. All right, we're going to beat you for three hours.

And it's like, no. It's like so. That does sound quite traumatic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and you can't say no, like, you have to do it or also, like, discharge you. It's just, like, it's just random stuff like that. And then, I don't know.

Yeah. So that's, like, on top of, like, the training you're going through already. So, yeah. So it sounds like no control over your life and getting, like, arbitrarily punished. Yeah. That sounds stressful. They call, like, breaking people down so they can build them back up. It's like, all right, you broke everyone down, like, pretty good here.

Wow. Did that prepare you? Yeah, go ahead. You ever seen the movie Full Metal Jacket? Yeah, I think it's kind of like that. Many, many, many years ago. I don't really remember much about it. But it's just like collectively like everyone like beating,

it's just like beating people down until the like, and some people don't deal with it like very well. So yeah, that kind of thing. But anyways, going on. No, what does that mean? Some people don't deal with it well. What do they? Well, the guy in the movie ends up committing suicide.

So like the military has like an enormous. Like, more people die of suicide in the military than combat or anything like that or of anything else. Like, the suicide rate is insanely high. Like, I've known, like, so many people to commit suicide in the military. And, like, that's something you have to deal with, too. It's like, these guys can't deal with it. And they're, like, checking out. Like, these are people, like, that are, like, all my ship with me.

Like, they're, like, how am I dealing with this? You know? It's like. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. So you're dealing with, like, statistic is actually true that more people in the military die of suicide than combat? I'm pretty sure that's still true.

Like during non-combat times is definitely true. So like literally every other week we'd have like some suicide prevention training or some like talk about. Yeah. It was like always like being talked about. So did it help? Well in the military it's like you're basically just like one of those things like you have to go to this class.

Like, it's just another thing you have to do. You know what I mean? And the people that are instructing it are like, it's like I said, the people that are in charge of you are probably not the smartest people or like emotionally developed people. So you have like Bubba Gump senior LPO or whatever. Like, all right, guys. Now you think about killing yourself.

No. All right. You know, we're going to sit in this class for an hour now. It's like, yeah. It's just like people, people that are not qualified. be talking about this stuff, like trying to help you deal with this stuff, you know? You know, it's funny. I'm noticing an interesting connection.

So on Wednesday, we actually had the mods from live stream fails. Yeah. Kind of talking about Reddit's like mental health support DM bot. Oh, God. That's pretty much, yeah. That was what that was going down there pretty much. So I'm hearing like this theme, like I didn't think that, you know, there'd be anything relating to your interview and their interview that would be.

connected. And the thing that connects it is like, it seems like there are a lot of organizations out there that check a box in terms of, oh, this is a problem. Let's do something. Let's do something that allows us to say that we're doing something about the problem. Exactly. That's pretty much what's gone down. And instead of doing some, yeah, it's like, did you fill out the pamphlet that check that I didn't, it's like, you don't want to kill yourself. It's like, all right, nice. Work here is done. It's just like Yeah It's interesting

I worked at a prison That had a very interesting approach to suicide prevention What does they do? They punished people For being suicidal So if you Kind of get evaluated

In your suicidal They essentially put you in solitary confinement With like Paper clothing They give you like a paper gown So you can't like hang yourself There's no fucking way you can hang yourself because there's one person watching like six cells.

And so they just like stick people in there. And then they get like periodically evaluated. And as long as they were better afterwards, right? They got fixed. Yep. Yep. And I was the one doing the evaluations. So it was like, are you, are you not suicidal?

Or do you want to stay another day by yourself with no TV, nothing to do 24 hours of solitary confinement for your own safety? And it was, it was terrifying. But also eye-opening. This is America. Yeah, I don't even know how much, like, as much as we bash America, like, things are actually pretty good here compared to most places in the world. Oh, agree.

I agree, but we still got some weird problems. Yeah. Yeah, so Brandon, how are you feeling about this conversation? Because I'm kind of noticing, like, I'm really enjoying hearing, like, your experiences and stuff. but I just want to check in with you about, you know, whether this is a good use of our time or you wanted to talk about something else or... I feel good.

And I mean, my main purpose on coming on to the show is like, obviously I wanted to talk about some of my things. And I've never done therapy before or anything like that, like in the traditional sense. So like I've, and I know this isn't like therapy, but it's like talking to somebody that does therapy. And it's like, I feel like I've been, I've been through a lot of stuff. And I've like messed my life up in a lot of ways. and I learned from it.

And I hope to like share that with people and like help other people in that sense. Yeah, that's really awesome. Not that you messed your life up, but that you're trying to. That's the life's up. And out of curiosity, anything keep you from doing therapy or trying it or? No, I just, I like tinkering with the cogs myself, I guess. I don't know. And I've done it in like a bunch of different ways.

Like obviously in like the ways we're talking about earlier, like psychedelics and that kind of stuff too. And it's, I feel like that, that actually helped me a lot. Like, so it's like that's working for me. So it's like,

I'm just going to keep going with that. And like I'm going to mentally, I feel like I'm in a good place right now. Sure. Yeah. And so did you want to talk about like focus or or like, you know how your mind works. I had the topic.

Yeah. Well, I mean, the focus thing kind of like goes with I guess like when I first started being a pro gamer like I could get in this like hyper focus state right? And like I'd be like dialed in. And then I think like over the years it's like I was like drinking and like smoking and all that kind of stuff. It's like I would like have like a blip.

Like my brain would like randomly. like lag like a computer you know I would like and I would just I would jump out of that hyper focus state and it'd be like in a game and I just like randomly run it down you know I just like die in the game or just and it can be like anything and then I find and then eventually I found like myself having like those moments in like real light where it's like I'd be focused on something and then it's like my brain lags and it's like it's just I don't know it's like when your computer Lags or like you get like pink spike. It's like almost that same experience.

So yeah, I don't know, I'm sure really. It's just and obviously I've like read about it and like talked about or talk people about it's like and it's always like because there's like you need to practice mindfulness or like being in the moment more to like. Yeah, it's because it's like that lag is like your brain trying to get at something else like subconsciously right or like moving into like another. Is it? Well, I think I think it is.

like it could be like something random like, uh, like I'm focused in on the game or like this conversation I have somebody. And then my brain could like random subconsciously try to go off into something of like the past or the future or like something that's like in the back of my mind. You know, like I'm, I could be worried about or anything. Like at least that's my understanding like what's going on. Is it just in terms of what breaks your hyperfocus state?

Yeah. Yeah, well, it's hard for me to focus anymore like that, but it's, it's like, yeah, it's like something is put like snapping me out of it, you know? Like, right, I like lose that focus and I can't. And I feel like it's like been deteriorating over time, you know? That sounds like, well, it's not in like, well, you know, like people say that, uh, this gamer's 22. He's past his prime for being a pro gamer, you know, like that kind of thing. I think that it's not that, you know, they're like, your fingers don't work anymore, all that kind of stuff.

And, like, as a player ages. I don't think it has anything to do with that. It's more like, I think all, like, high-level gamers can, like, reach that focus state, right? And I think a lot of that has to do it in their earlier age, like, their number one main priority and, like, the things that are thinking about and all they care about is, like, that game, right? And it's, like, as you go through life, more things, like, you start to care about more things. than the game. Like the other things start like to come into the picture, right?

And I think that it's your brain like subconsciously like thinking about those other things that like pulls you out of that state. And I feel like that's why like a lot of pro gamers like get bad or get worse as as they get older. It has nothing to do with like hands or like ability or anything like that. It's that

it's that focus level. And like I see you know a lot of people that are like older and in the same but it's like I see that same I see that they're still that same focus level you know they can still like dial it in like that's why they're like able to like keep doing it. Hmm interesting can I just think about that for a second yeah go for it so you're saying that as the scope of your life expands your mind is less able to focus on video games because it's not like monolithic it's not one dimensional So your mind has other.

And I don't think that's the same for everybody. But I feel like that's what started happening to me. And I've definitely seen it happen with a lot of like other like people in the scene that ended up retiring or like falling off. It's like their brain is like pulling them away. Like they could be worried about like school or. I know not school like job kind of stuff or like relationship or any of the normal like life stuff. And it's like those things instead of just before they were like way like in the back. It's like and then the game is like way up here like as far as like value and meaning.

And it's and then they eventually start to come up. I mean, we do have a good understanding of like how to attain that hyper-focused state from like a neuroscience and level. Like it'd be really interesting to look into the mechanisms of why professional gamers are young. I think League of Legends and Dota are good example. Dota especially is like a good example of like the top tier teams all like tend to have like old captains, like way older than most e-sports. Dota, I don't know too much about like what would you say is the average lifespan of a League of Legends player? Like a professional. And now like three to four years stops and maybe like five to six if they're like,

super elite. Yeah, so I think Dota feels longer than that. So if you look at some, I mean, the average may actually be closer to like two to four years, but there are a lot of like professional Dota players that have been playing some form of MOB up competitively for like close to. Yeah. Well, that also has to do with player population. So like as the game has like a larger player population, there's more people that can come

and buy for that spot. Interesting. It becomes far more competitive. So, like, you know, I'm sure, like, you're aware of, like, everybody bears, like, Western games, gaming to, like, you know, Korea, China and all that. And you look at their rank populations, they're, like, far, you know, two to three, like, way, even, like, more, more than that, like, times the population. So as there's, like, a larger population to, like, buy for your spot, like, the bar gets raised, like, you know, keeps getting raised. And Dota has like, I think it's like the same like community still playing the game. Yeah.

Like obviously there's like some new players that trickle in. But it's like that new player has to fight against like multiple years of experience to like break in. Right. And Dota is a very complex game too. So it's like you have to learn all that cumulative knowledge. And then you also have to like catch up and then progress like beyond that person. Right. Yeah.

And when you say it can be set for like traditional sports too. So, so, yeah, so I mean, and I'm, I'm hearing you say that, like, you think that a lot of your hyperfocus has gotten harder as you've started to care about other things. Yes, definitely. I definitely can't hang in, like, league or any of those games anymore. And what keeps you from hanging, the inability to gain hyper focus? Yeah, like, being that, like, before I could, like, dial myself in. could play for like 20 hours straight. Like in, I would be like in. I'd be like in the zone the whole time, you know?

And I talked like some other doctors about this like for some like summit like a while ago. And they were talking kind of like about the difference. You know like a traditional sport? I can't click a button at two o'clock in the morning and get into a game of like NFL football. You know, with all the other players, right? But a game, like a video game, I can click a button at two o'clock in the morning. morning and I can be at people in a full-fledged game with people relative to my skill at like any time I want right so you have limitless amount of like training time and the only thing holding you

back is your ability to be focused in that training time so that's like that's what you're that's what you're fighting against and there's people that will like keep pushing that boundary like keep pushing it yeah so that that's where I totally I've gotten that as well I so I trained at a place that had the sports psychologists and psychiatrists for the New England Patriots and the Boston Red Sox. So it was interesting to, it was a good professional opportunity to be able to work with those folks and talk to them about what their experience of working with these like, you know, top tier sports organizations are. Definitely, you know, one of the interesting things that came up was this idea that like you can only practice football for like four hours a day. Yeah. You literally.

Yeah, there's like a physical limitation that there's clearly a diminishing return after like four hours of practice a day, let's say. And so, you know, sports organizations will do all kinds of things like hot tubs and these magnetic machines and massages and stuff like that to try to get their players to like practice for four and a half hours, right? Because if you can like heal the body a little bit faster. It gives you a half hour out. Yeah.

But in e-sports, like I still remember. one of my earliest engagements, which I guess is still under NDA, is with a particular sport that I was actually working for the company that owns the game and talking to their, so they had like an event where a lot of their, all their teams were basically there. And so I was there and talking to the coaches and it was interesting to hear that they were saying like, yeah, like, you know, we can, there's no physical limitation to the, to how much you play. Now, the interesting thing that we kind of got into was whether eight hours of playing pubs or 12 hours of playing pubs, like whether those extra four hours of playing pubs actually does anything

to improve your skill. Just goes back to focus. Like if it's focused practice, it'll do something. But like that's what I was like, that's the, when you notice like a true super elite like person in gaming, it's the focus thing every time. Like you like, Burekson, you had him on the show, right? Like he is like focused all the time. when he's playing. It's like there's a difference between just, I'm going to queue out 20 hours in a row and just like autopilot. And like that's what a lot of people do, right?

That's the difference between like the real elite and the and it's being able to reach that. And it's like I felt it's like there's a point where I could reach that before. I just can't do it anymore. And it's like I felt it just slipped away from me. And it's like, yeah. How do you feel about that? It was definitely difficult to deal with at the time because it's like I was really good at and this is like on top of all the stuff we talked about before that it's like my value was

that I was really good at this game right and then I was in the I got thrown into like the limelight and all that and you know I had I just like streaming like as like people like you know liked me and all that same thing like any of these other like streamers deal with and it's like then I feel my ability like slipping right I'm like my ability to be focused and it's like I feel like my value was slipping, you know? And like, this is before, like, I'd build, like, all, like, the, dealt with, like, the empathy, all that kind of stuff. So it's, like, it was definitely, like, very tough for me to deal with at the time.

How did you deal with it? Not very well. Do you remember what kind of thoughts you would have in your head? I was just, like, very unstable, like, both emotionally and, like, mentally. So, like, the stress is also kicking in, too, right? you have like the stress on top of like not knowing what because like you're like all in like if you if you're going to be like a pro gamer you're all in right you have to you commit to it fully so it's like I'm dealing with the stress from that where it's like fuck don't I'm going to

go back to school like what am I going to do like all that you know that kind of stuff and then it's like also you've alienated a lot of like your relationships that you've had like both like friendship significant otherwise to like put this game as a priority right and so it's like the thing that you put as like your priority is like slipping like you're you're like not able to like do it you know so it's like very tough to like come to terms with so yeah do you remember what kind of thoughts you would have um just stress like more so like what am i going to do like how can i fix this uh that's why i started reading about like you know sports performance psychology all that that's like when i started getting to that like philosophy

It's like, I'm going to do, like, anything I can to, like, try to, like, get this state back. But it's, like, nothing I could do, like, could get me back. And I think it's just because I, like, lost that, like, obsession with the game. You know, and instead of doing it because I, like, really, really enjoyed it, I was doing it just because, like, this is my habit. I'm, like, playing this game because, like, this is, and it's the same as, like, anything I did, like, drinking, smoking, all of this. It's, like, I'm doing this and trying to keep doing this because, like, this is what I do.

Yeah, I'm also hearing a, So I think what also shatters the focus is you used to do it out of potentially passion for the game. Yeah, I love the game. And what I'm hearing is that you started doing it to hold on as opposed to love for the game. Exactly. It's a job. I mean, it comes a job for everybody. Like, that gets into pro.

Well, I think it's the attachment to like holding on that I think actually negatively impacts the focus and may create a vicious cycle. That the longer, the more. the more you try to hold on, the harder it becomes to like enter the flow state of mind of like hyperfocus because you're trying to like grab something from the past. And as we started off with, you know, being in the present is better. I think and when you're hyperfocused, I'd assume that you'd call that a present focus state like you're in the present at that time. Yeah, the flow state. That's like an interesting thing to read about too. It's like everyone, what is I trying to reach the flow state.

Yeah. So I think that also is where like, you know, it's interesting, you were saying that there are the more things that you care about or the wider the scope of your life, the harder it is to get into the state of hyperfocus. So it's been my experience that sometimes when I work with a team, there's like emotional bad blood that needs to be worked through and like occupies like your subconscious ram. and like the more that your subconscious ram, it's like all these processes, old processes from tournaments long past

that are just like minimized into the system trade. And that as you work through that stuff and you start closing down those processes, you kind of apologize, forgive, or even own that I will never forgive you for this. Interestingly enough, they start to play better. The focus starts to return. Yeah. And you don't necessarily have to. to have a happy ending, but you do have to do some amount of emotional processing and, like,

close all that crap that you've got minimized. Yeah. And when I played, there was, like, no coaches. There is, like, nobody's supporting you on that stuff. So it's like, it's like, well, go deal with it yourself. This is definitely tough. Yeah, go deal with it yourself sounds like the story of your life, Brandon. Fun times.

Yeah, we good, though. Yeah. No, it's interesting, right? Because that's like, you know, I'm hearing that that's what happened growing up. I'm hearing that's what happened in the military. I'm hearing, you know, that's what happened when you were a professional law player. And I'm hearing that maybe the reason you're happy is because you're not dealing with yourself anymore. Well, no, I'm still like, yeah.

Oh, I'm happy because I'm not dealing with myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sharing experiences, like the stuff you've stopped over. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we haven't really talked about what that means, but I've noticed you use the phrase sharing experiences many times. And what I'm doing is like, I'm equating those two things that there's,

there's Brandon that did it himself and had to do it himself, which I think it's reasonable for you to have some degree of sadness towards regret about feels bad man, sad. Yeah. You know? And then there's Brandon who now isn't solo queuing anymore. Not solo queue anymore. We're in the flex queue.

What does flex queue mean? It's this like, pretty much just like you just team up with your friends and like me. Yeah, yeah. Any questions for me, Brandon? No, I'm good. I'm fine. I think I talked about a lot of stuff I want to talk about. I mean, there's like a bunch of stuff I could go into, but probably don't have time.

So it's fine. Yeah, I mean, I sort of try to, you know, we usually do this for about two hours at a stretch, like somewhere around there. No, this is good. Yeah, I appreciate it. And, you know, if you have questions or things that you want to talk about, we still have time. It's just, you know, I want to be call attention, you know, just be aware of like what this, you know, how long is this game of Loll going to last? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Let's talk about, I mean, I still feel like a lot of these. things I carry over into like my like I say I'm good now but I like still a lot of these things

like carry over it's like still things like I'm like constantly tinkering with and like like like what? Uh just like relationships with people are like, uh, um, like, like friendships. Like it's still like because of like my past experiences, the concept of like what a friendship is is still like even to this day something I'm like figuring out. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I'm a grown man, you know? And it's like, I'm still figuring that out to this day, you know? Can you give me an example of what you're figuring out or a situation in which it's clear that you haven't figured everything out yet?

How to explain it? It's like, I feel like, uh, I feel like, uh, I feel like, uh, even my close friendships are like at an arm's length, you know? I don't know really explain that. It's like, I think it's more like to do with like how people are in like modern times. Like I don't want to say modern times,

but like, uh, I'm really having a hard time like it's. Yep. So I think that, Brandon, here's the problem. I think you're trying to piece it together.

So you're speaking in abstractions. And my instinct is that. if you want to understand this better, stop speaking in abstractions. Extractions, yeah. I'm trying to find like an exact, like, instance. It's more so, like, I feel like my friendship should be closer than they are.

Okay, good. That's a good statement. But, like, with the amount of effort I put in. But I don't, that's the thing. I actually don't put that much effort in, actually. I'm lazy. Yeah. So it's like, I would like to have, like,

closer friendships with people, but I feel like it's like, I'm so used to being by myself, you know, that it's, like, difficult for me to match people's effort in, yeah, you know. So we're going to try to speed run this, okay? Okay, go, go, go, go.

So I think there's a lot of value here. I think it's really important to talk about. I don't want to leave the conversation without giving it a shot. Okay, go for it. All right? So the first thing is, so you feel like your relationships are closer than they should, should be closer than they are, that even the people you consider close friends, you kind of keep at arm's length.

Yes. So when I say that to you, I'm seeing emotion in your face. Yes, yes. Okay. So what am I saying that's triggering something in you? Um, sorry. Basically, I'll just like summarize. That can be exact.

Basically, I'm so used to being alone in my life and like all my own, doing my own thing, like figuring out my own shit that even when I do have people in my life, that like want to share experiences, I can't even like process it, you know? Because I'm like, this doesn't make sense. Like in my mind, it's like, I'm too used to being on my own, you know? So like I can't like, I can't like process like that friendship.

What does that mean you can't process that friendship? It's like there could be a moment where I'm supposed to be close to that person and I still like, I feel like it's like alien. you know it's like I shouldn't it's like I feel like I shouldn't be feeling this and what should you be feeling or what are you feeling that you shouldn't be feeling or it's like I feel like I should be closer with them like in those moments you know I feel like I should be feeling closer but it's like I'm so used to being alone like feeling alone and like dealing with shit on my own that I don't know how to like mentally and like

emotionally, like go through that with that person to like connect that moment, you know? It's like I didn't read the, I didn't read like friendships for dummies, you know? So I read that book. I'm hearing that you don't know how to be a friend. Yes. I feel like like I don't. I see like other people's friendships and it's like, I feel like, I feel like, what do you, it's like, oh, I should like, I feel like the way they spend time together all that.

Like, I have a good friend group. Like, don't give me. wrong. I have a lot of friends. But it's like I don't feel like that it's at I don't feel like our interactions are like at, uh, it's like not a like I don't feel like at the closeness is there like as it should be, you know? And I think it's like my fault. You know? Okay. What makes you think it's your fault or what's your fault in this? Because, um, I'm like, my brain is like off in its own world all the time are like uh the social queue thing are like i'm hearing still different you feel deficient yeah i feel deficient it's just because it's like first 25 years in my life i'm like not doing this right

so i want you to brandon you you get us learn how to stop doing this thing sometimes i'll ask you a question and you'll give me an answer and then you'll give me an explanation okay okay Okay. What we need is, if you want to make progress here, forget about everything after the word because. Okay. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes. Right?

So like when you feel a particular way, like if I ask you, do you feel deficient? What does your mind do? Tries to explain. My mind tries to explain why I'm deficient. Yeah. Like I try to come up with a logical reasoning of it. Yep. Right.

But that sort of doesn't. it's not that it doesn't matter, it's just that I don't think that that's where the work you need to do is. Yes. So, I know this sounds kind of weird, but like, what is it like? Why do you think that your mind does that? The explaining? Yeah. I mean, that's just who I am as a person. Like, when I'm playing a game, I'm like trying to logically figure it out, right? Yeah. Or are I doing anything? I'm like trying to logically figure it out to come to a conclusion. Like I'm trying to beat the game.

Yep. And these friendships are a game almost in the way it's like I'm trying to beat the game of friendships. Yep. Very well said. It's who you are. And that's what needs to change. Because you've been trying to beat the game of friendships for a while. So I think we've got to teach you a different way.

Can I think for a second? Go for it. I'm glad you mentioned this, by the way. What should your relationships be like? Hmm, I feel like, hmm, I see like some friends have like, they're like literally like life partners. Like they want to experience life together, you know? Like that's the best way to have life, right? Is you're just sharing life experiences all the time, right?

Like a positive way, negative way, it doesn't matter. And I feel like I miss out a lot of those experiences. How long have you felt lonely, Brandon? I don't want to say, okay, I don't want to use the word lonely because that's not the right way to describe it, but it's like, I think the deficiency is like the right way to say it. It's like I feel like I'm at like a six or a five and like I want to be at like a nine or a ten.

You know what I mean? What made you a five or a six instead of a nine or a ten? I feel like I'm playing catch up You know it's like you know when we talked about the cumulative knowledge thing with like the games It's like I feel like I'm playing catch up in like the human interaction thing Why do you have to play catch up in the first place? Because I didn't have those experiences when I just put myself on the computer and pretty much like isolated myself for like the first 20 years of my life. whose fault is it that you're playing catch-up?

Well, I mean, my own, of course. Like, I'm the one who decided to do that. Like, I could, like, deflect and, like, put them like, oh, my parents are like, you know, this. It always comes back to yourself. Like, you're the ultimate person responsible for yourself. And, like, you're like, like, so it's like, I understand, like, what I did.

And it's like, now we go back to, like, the mindset of, I need to beat the game. So, like, I'm trying to figure out mentally how to, like, you know, tinker with my brain, all the stuff we talk about the inner monologue, all that kind of junk, to, like, have better experiences with people and, like, create better experiences for them, you know? Can I think for a second? Go for it. You know, blaming yourself, you got some snot, by the way.

Yeah, sorry. It's all good. I'm just, you know. I'm going to get it now. I'm going to bring back. All right. I'm back. Welcome back, Brandon.

Yeah. So I'm going to say something kind of weird, okay? So I think you're good at figuring things out. Okay. And so if you're stuck somewhere, I think that it's not a problem of like not being able to solve the problem. I think you're trying to solve the wrong problem. It's a problem of misdiagnosis. And one of the hardest things to do, if you blame yourself and you try to fix things,

One of the saddest things that I routinely see is when people blame themselves for something that's not actually their fault. So they're never able to fix it because the fault doesn't lie with you. And as long as you own the faults of other people, like that's not something that can ever be fixed. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. I understand what you're trying to say. So I know it sounds kind of weird, but like the idea that you were deficient, the idea that it's all your fault, on the one hand, is helpful, is adaptive. Right? Because if everything is your fault, you have it within your power to fix it.

Yes. And so there's something actually bizarrely comforting about beating yourself up. Because then like, and honestly, I see this in cases of like abuse and neglect where like, people learn to think it's their fault. And I know it sounds kind of weird, but why does that happen so much? It's because actually the alternative is like way harder. Like dealing with a world where you're in the situation that you're in because you didn't, not because of something that you did wrong,

but because other people did something wrong is like a terrifying world to live in. There's so much uncertainty because if you're not to blame, than can you ever fix it? Like, I don't know. Like, taking away power from yourself in that situation. Absolutely.

And this is the kind of thing where I would be really careful. Because, I mean, like, sure, you played a bunch of video games, but like, and I know that, like, we sort of talk about, like,

holding on the resentment is a bad thing, but I think that you're doing something really, really bizarre, which is if you accept, if you're not, if you accept more blame than what you're responsible for,

you're in like an unsolvable situation. Okay, that makes sense. Right? So I get that you feel deficient, but I think you've got to be careful about the logical plan of action that you build rooted in an emotion that you are not good enough,

that you are deficient in some way. Because like all of that thinking starts from like that emotional core. And I think the reason that you've made progress and I'm sure you'll continue to make progress. I think you'll make progress faster if you understand. Like the reason you feel deficient, now we're speed running. So, you know, I may recommend a couple of other things to you. At the top of the list is we're releasing a guide on mental health,

which I think there are one or two videos that you should definitely watch because you're textbook. But it's kind of interesting because like if you think about how long have you you felt deficient? I mean, my whole life, obviously, like, it's, yeah. Right? So, like, yeah. So if you think about it, that's something that you carry with you, right?

It shapes, like, all of the way that you look at the world. And if you want to form, like, healthy relationships, like, it's going to be really hard if you don't believe that you're someone that's worth forming a healthy relationship with. Like what keeps your friends at arm's length? Because you keep on saying I'm used to being on my own. Like yeah, I get you're used to it, but it's not what you want. I feel like part of me does want to be on my own though. You're right. Why?

It's like comforting because it's the normality. Not just the normality. It's like my routine. So I think there's value to routine. But what would it be like to not keep people at arm's length? What do you gain by keeping them at arm's length? Just the same thing. So the same routine, same thing.

I don't get anything. I think you gain more than that. So I want you to think about a time where you could get closer to someone. Okay. And you don't. Why not? Um, I feel like we don't share the same, like, uh, I don't feel like the, uh, I don't feel like the feeling is shared.

So it's like I pull back. You know? Yeah. So let's think about that for a second. Why do you have to pull back if the feeling isn't shared? Don't you like smothered people? I don't know. Have you smothered people before?

I've definitely experienced people smothering me. So it's like I don't want them to experience that as well, you know? When like somebody's like too pushy, about like being in your life or like you know what I mean yeah and it's like I just want to be on my own or to do my own thing so you want to I don't I don't I don't I don't put that burden on other people yeah I'm going to use like a I'm going to use exaggerated terms okay because we're speed running okay so you don't want to you're it almost sounds like you're protecting them from yourself yeah because it's like it's like the I'm trying to

I guess I'm just going to say it's like, I'm logically trying to like, it's like, I don't want, yeah, I'm protecting them for myself because I don't like that experience sometimes, right? So it's like, I don't want them to have that experience, you know? And what exactly are you protecting them from? I don't want to like push myself into their life too much, you know? Or like, I don't want to be like the little eager kid with like a, oh, this is like a little, like a butterfly and then swishing, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And so how do you, how do you view yourself in that interaction?

Like, what, what are you? What are you insulating them from? I just want to get them in their space. Like, it's like, uh, I didn't ask them, I didn't ask what you want to do for them. I'm asking, what are you? What am I? I'm just somebody that, I feel like I'm an intense person. Like, when I, just because of a lot of my.

experiences throughout my life. And I know I shouldn't be like just because I know we talked about that. But it's, but it's like that's, it can be an intense person. And it's like I want to, I'm like trying to pull back from that intensity, you know, I understand I can be an intense person. Okay. What do you mean by intense person? Well, it's because like before I didn't feel any of these things. And it's like once I opened the floodgate, it's like, I feel the, these things like, I mean, I'm pretty crying on stream and stuff, right? You know? Yeah. It's like once I do feel something or like something does happen, I feel like it's like magnified tenfold. So it's like, it's very difficult for me to, uh, I don't want to say control it,

but it's like, it can be overwhelming. Yep. Absolutely. And what's wrong with you being overwhelmed when you're with someone else? I don't want them to be overwhelmed by this experience that like, I can't even control myself because I'm not in control myself in that situation. Yep. So it's like I don't want to like boil that over onto them, you know? Mm-hmm.

Expose them to your nastiness. Yeah, my nastiness. They don't deserve to deal with this overwhelming bundle of emotions that is you. This busted kid who never learned how to make friends and you don't want to show that to them and why should they have to deal with someone who you know, is such a deficient human being.

Yes. Pretty much. There you go. You got it. Yep. So I'm going to say something weird, Brandon. You're an arrogant prick. Yeah, I've been told that. Yeah. So here's the thing. It's not your place to control their reactions. You're taking the decision away from them. That makes you arrogant and controlling. Okay.

Right? So, like, what you need to do is like, because like, it's interesting, right? Because you're really controlling this interaction. You're not giving them the choice to accept you or reject you. You're making that choice for them. And as long as you make that choice for them, they're going to be at arm's length. Yes. So like the reason, like, they're at arm's length because you're keeping them there.

If they get, so this is where I'd like venture. Like, there are times where it's not just about you. getting close to them, sometimes they come close to you, and I think you push them away. Yes, that does happen. So I know it's going to be terrifying, but I would let someone, let them have it. Let them have it. Right? Give them the chance to be a friend, because right now you're controlling it.

You're not giving them the chance. chance. It's like you can't have a friendship that is like where one person has all the power. Okay. What do you think about that? I can agree with it. I don't want to give you a just because, but like also something that goes into my mind with that is like the scene we're in is like, I don't want to say very superficial, but it's like, I feel like there are a lot of superficial. relationships with people.

And like, because, and there's a lot of friendships that get created in this scene as well. Like, I, it's just, I don't know.

It's very hard to tell like genuine interactions, you know? Yeah. So that, that, you know, that's something that I think you should, you should be very careful about because when it comes to like the streaming world, friendship becomes a business.

Yes. And I don't want it to become that. So that I can, I can, you know, I can not only meet you halfway, I can meet you all the way. I'll come all the way over to your concern there. But I really do think, Brandon, that like, if you want to feel connected to someone, you know, like, like you see, like it feels to me like there's ugliness inside you that you don't want to burden other people with. But as long as like you're not willing to let them see who you are, like, you're. like you're always going to feel that degree of distance. And the whole point, I mean, here you are crying in front of thousands of people.

Like, what would you think? I mean, I know this stream is a little bit of a different place. But like when your mind considers situations like this, like, what is it afraid of? I mean, I'm not afraid to show my emotion. I'm never, I never afraid of that. Like, I don't care. Okay. Like, I don't feel any insecurity with it.

It's more so like, I just, I guess maybe I am afraid of like the disingenuous, I see a lot of like disingenuous. Oh, I got a good way explaining it. All my previous friendships from before were friendships that I was like, it's like, so let's say I'm on a team with somebody, right? It's like we're living together. I'm on a team.

We're friends. Why are we friends? Because we're just here living together. It's because of circumstance, you know? are like, I'm in the military. It's like, we're here. We're stuck with each other. Now we're friends.

I'm friends because I'm stuck there with that person, right? And it's like, I almost have like that same mindset of, it's like, now I'm not stuck with people, right? So it's like, it's hard for me to tell like what a genuine non, like, I'm stuck here with you friendship is. Sure. Yeah, maybe that's a, I don't know what that explains so well. But, yeah, it's like very difficult for me to, like, I'm afraid.

of that like that I'm stuck with you friendship. I don't want to have that. You know? And it's like, now I'm not stuck with anybody. I'm like trying to like cultivate like real friendships and relationships. And it's like it's just a very different experience. So and it's not trying to navigate that. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of practical stuff there and there's potentially a date like a dangerous isn't the right word. There's like an interesting undercurrent there. So when I envision someone who views themselves as deficient and they have friends due to circumstances. I could imagine like that blending together to where like the only reason these people are my friends is because we're all stuck on a boat together.

The only reason that these people are my friends is because they're my teammates. Do you see how like the circumstance plus your deficiency could create like a hybrid kind of thing? Yes. I mean, I understand what's going on. and it's like, yeah. Because I think actually, like, I would even go as far as to say that your conception, that the only, I mean, you didn't use the word only,

but I think that when your mind says, you know, the reason where friends is because we're stuck together, that implies to me that you don't acknowledge that there's like genuine value and it's just circumstance. It's karma. Right? But like, when you think about friends, like, that's how friends get made. Like, so friends are made through repeated, unplanned interactions and common cause. Yes. But what I'm really hearing is like, I think that, you know, the next time you have a good day or a bad day,

or there's something that you think that someone else doesn't want to hear, I think you should try sharing it with them. All right. What do you think about that? I try to do that. but it's just like I still hold back, you know? Yep. So what do you hold back? I just don't talk about. I just stay off on my own.

Like, so a lot of time, I'll try to talk to people, but it's like. Yep. So what I'm talking about is not what you already do. It's what you hold back. Yeah. I just don't do it as much as I should. Like, I don't want to say I'm lazy, but it's like, I don't put the effort in that I should. No, I don't, don't be self-judgmental. I'm going to discount anything because that's like anything that's blaming or implies a deficiency, I'm going to sidestep as best as I can. Well, doesn't it take two to tango? Like, I have people reach out to me. Okay. You know, it's like, I don't feel like I reciprocate in the same way that they're coming to me, you know? What, what keeps you from reciprocating? Just I'm too used to

being on my own kind of thing, you know? Like, that's my normal. That's my normality. It's like, I'm off on my own world. I'm sure that habit has something to do with it, but I would say like, you know, so for example, today, can you think of a single person that you can reach out to after we're done talking? Of course. And will you do that? Yes. Okay. And what is going to be the purpose of you reaching out to them?

To talk to them. Okay. I don't like having ulterior motives or anything, you know. And so, like, what is something? Can you think of a person that there's something that a part of you wanted, there's a part of you that wanted to share, but you held back with a particular person? Can you think of a scenario like that? Like, ideally within the last, like, week or two, because it can be weird if it's, like,

a six-month-old interaction, but. I mean, just, like, dumb stuff. I'm just, like, talking about something, like, maybe something silly, like, just something to happen. Like, that kind of, you know, like, I'm not going to give, like, a specific example, But it's just those are the kind of moments, you know? Like, I just never reach out to people. Yeah. So I, I, so here's what I would recommend to you, Brandon, is do that today.

Reach out to someone and do whatever, whatever you normally do, do more. And this is the main thing. So this is not going to be about forming friendships. This is actually going to be a part of your meditation practice. Okay. Okay. So what I want you. you to do is as you reach out to someone. So I want you to think about something that you have

kept hidden from someone else. Like, it doesn't have to be like deep, dark secret, you know, but like, you know, that voice in your mind that tells you like, oh, they don't want to hear about that. Like, I just made a bunch of money on AMC or I lost a bunch of money on Dogecoin. Like, you take your pick, right? And, or even it's, and like, I would take something that you're uncomfortable with sharing. Something, and this is where you're. the meditation practice comes in. As you think about the interaction, your mind is going to tell you reasons not to do it. Your mind is going to tell you, oh, they don't want to hear about that. Oh, that's going to be too much. Like, that's going to sound pathetic. I'm going to like,

like, you know, like I'm going to, it's so pathetic. I'm so pathetic if I say that to them. And notice it, aware it. Become aware of it in the moment. And sit with that feeling. Don't try to explain, oh, this, I'm just doing this because it's my habit. Like, and then like you're going to notice the because is pop up. Just sit with that feeling, which makes you feel, for lack of a better term, ugly. It's a feeling of ugliness. Right? Like, it's like deformity, deficiency. Like, it's something and then I know it's going to sound weird, but I want you to watch. So then I want you to share whatever it is that you don't want to share. And if you can't share it, that's, actually okay. Just notice what it is that keeps you from sharing. Notice that feeling of deformity

and ugliness and deficiency is so powerful that you can't actually like get the words out. Or share it. And as you share it, notice what happens to that feeling. Watch it. Don't even worry about what they say. Just watch yourself. Okay. What do you think about that? I can do this. Quest accepted. Okay. Awesome. Yeah.

I think, Brandon, this has a lot to do with you, man. I mean, I know I said this self, you know, some of what I'm saying

is going to sound not hypocritical, but contradictory. It's tangled up. But I think your short, but not about you. Yeah. So your shortcoming is that you accept

more shortcomings than you're responsible for. I can agree with that. But, yeah, okay, never mind. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So it's fine to have the butt, right? Like, I'm not disputing that the butt has value. I think in your case, you just lean too much on what's on the other side of the butt.

This is going to take it out of context. I do lean to the butt a lot. Yeah. Right? The butt, the because the, like, and that's where like, because when you get into the logic, like, you move away from that feeling and what you need to do. do is sit with that feeling. Because that's the feeling that like, you know, like when you were failing out and like,

you know, what did your parents do when they found out that you had to repeat a year? They didn't care. Right? So, because I had, I just like, told them like, I'm going to do this. And then they're like, okay. So like, like, it's hard. But like, it's hard to give people the opportunity to care about you when you've learned over and over again that people.

don't give a shit. So you don't want to overwhelm them. But like, in overwhelming them, like, you're giving them the opportunity to, like, give a shit. But you don't want that. Because people have had a lot of opportunity. Like, did anyone ever ask, like, what's wrong with this kid? Does this kid need help? Like, why isn't he coming to class? Not really. Right? So, like, no one has cared about you before. Why would they care about you now? And it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. because as long as you don't ask, like, that truth, like, you don't open up to people because, like, right now you've convinced yourself that that's a question mark. Maybe people do care about me. I'm

dating someone clearly. Right? So, like, someone cares me. You have a cat. There's, there's like, my cat cares about me. There's, there's a certain amount of, like, ambiguity about, like, am I worth caring about or not? But if you go back to opening up to people, like, and you learn that lesson again, then all hope is lost. Hmm Okay Sorry, I'm just like I feel like

Emotionally exhausted right now Yep, yep I think we're done for today Yeah, yeah Okay I mean I appreciate this And it was definitely a good experience And I hope like

It helped anybody out there That also may be going through stuff like this So Yep, thanks for the time Gigi Yeah, see you later Yeah, go to awareness there. I'm emotionally exhausted too. How about y'all, chat? Sometimes people dodge for

like the first two hours. No, but he wasn't dodging. I think we both genuinely, that was a little bit of a joke.