HealthyGamerGG - How to Convince Anti-Vaxxers to Get Vaccinated

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

A follow-up on Dr K's Interview with Jimmy from Philly about communication and convincing people of anything. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, chat. So now what I'm going to try to do is teach y'all how to convince anyone of anything. So a couple weeks ago, we had a wonderful guest on stream, a guy named Jimmy from Philly. And people were very surprised because, you know, Jimmy from Philly was sort of introduced as like a diehard Trump supporter. So people thought that he was going to be like very irrational and like all that kind of stuff. And so what I found is that when people try to like convince people of things, they do they do a bad. job. And so today what we're going to talk about is like a basic guide to like convincing people of things and communicating with people. Okay. And what I'm going to share with you all is a methodology that I use that will enhance your own communication. A lot of people were surprised and were like,

oh, like, I can't believe that Dr. Kay was able to talk to Jimmy from Philly. And like, that didn't go where I expected it. It's not going to go where I expected it either. But it turns out that there's a lot of stuff that you can learn about communication that can really help you convince people of things that, you know, they may be resistant to understand. So we're going to take a case from our Reddit. My mother refuses to get vaccinated and it's causing obvious strain in our relationships. So I want to preface this by saying I'm a 27-year-old married and have my own apartment with my wife, so it's not like I'm trapped living with my parents. Anyway, on to the actual topic I came here to post.

My mom has slowly become further right over the years, which is completely fine. I don't agree with all of her political opinions, but everyone is entitled to their own politics. I just try not to talk about it. Once COVID happened, she radicalized quickly, buying into QAnon and other conspiracy-esque theories. I think that she needed to cope with everything, blah, blah, blah. She retweeted too much disinformation with the point she was banned from Twitter. So she's been showing me bombshell videos, saying things like, if the vaccine works so well, why are people with the vaccine worried about me not having it?

what happened to my body, my choice. I still love my mom. What's had her off recently was one of my relatives sending an email that she was going to have a housewarming party, but everyone is in attendance needed to be fully vaccinated. My mom took this as a personal attack on her because everyone knows she isn't vaccinated and she is, to my knowledge, the only one in my extended family on the side who is not. I was on the phone with her last night for almost an hour while she vented about being treated like a leper and everyone hating her. I tried to get her to understand that if she just swallowed her pride and got the vaccine, everything could go back to normal to some extent. But she unsurprisingly didn't want to hear it.

She believed all along that she is healthy and does not need the vaccine, and now there is evidence that the vaccine is dangerous. So she has dug in her heels even more. I'm sure that there is no convincing her to get vaccinated, but it's also causing me a great deal of personal stress. She is burning bridges with people close to her, just so she can stubbornly say, I told you so on the minuscule chance

that there is some global conspiracy going on. It's painful to see how unhappy she is and I don't have a solution. I guess I'm not really sure what I'm asking here, but maybe someone has advice for how I can mentally deal with the situation. If you've actually read through this, I appreciate you taking the time. So this is a great post

and it's unfortunately a really common problem. So we're going to take a step back and I'm going to share with you all my perspective on like how to convince people of things. Okay? So the first thing to understand is as a psychiatrist, it is my job to convince people of things that they don't want to do. That's like literally my job. So I'll give you all an example. The best evidence-based treatment for psychotic disorders is a medication called clausopine. So clausapine has been shown through numerous clinical trials to outperform any other antipsychotic agents. So it like reduces the severity of hallucinations and delusions and all that good stuff. Also improves mood the most. May improve some degree. of cognitive functions. The problem is that clausapine has some really terrible side effects. Like the worst side effects of any, well, I don't know about any medication I've ever prescribed,

but like, it's like definitely up there. So clausapine will cause you to gain 50 to 100 pounds. Will cause you to feel like cognitively dulled and slowed so you can't do creative work. We'll make you sleepy. And the most bizarre side effect of clausapine, which makes people absolutely hate it, is it suppresses your swallowing reflex. This is something that's really interesting because it's something that we really take for granted. So our body has, our brain and mouth, has a reflex that causes us to swallow our saliva

at periodic intervals. So once you suppress that, can you guess what happens? People start to drool, like literally like there will be saliva, like leaking out of their mouth. So sometimes I'll have someone who's got severe mental illness And they've tried other medications, and on those other medications, it doesn't seem to work. They get kicked out of their house because they're delusional.

They, like, you know, get into fights with other people. It's really sad. And so sometimes what I really have to do is convince them to try chlosopine. And it's tough because, like, it involves convincing someone to literally, like, you're going to be cognitively dulled. You're going to gain 100 pounds, and you're going to drool. Like, it's going to be terrible. It's an awful medication. Also is a very good medication.

It's part of why, you know, Western medicine is hard. So like and so I practice that convincing people how to do this and that's pretty successful and a lot of people get on clasopine and they tend to do a good job. I also do this as an addiction psychiatrist in terms of like convincing people to stop using substances. So here's kind of what I've learned about how to convince someone and and I'm pretty sure and I've convinced anti-vaxxers to take vaccines. You know, I've convinced a lot of people to do things that they're very resistant to do. So here's basically like my solution or like my playbubes. book to how to convince someone. And I've done like a lot of this successfully. It doesn't always work. But I think it's pretty effective. So the first thing to understand is that proving someone else wrong is a terrible way to convince them that you're right. So somewhere along the way, we as a society thought that debate is like a good way to convince people, right? So like we have this assumption in our mind that if I debate someone and I win the debate, then like the other party should be convinced.

Like showing them why they're wrong and why I'm correct should logically result in them changing their behavior. But this is absolutely incorrect. It's just not how it works. So I want you guys to think for a second about what happens in a debate. So if you like go on YouTube and you watch debates between like people's like, let's say like, you know, Richard Dawkins or like Christopher Hitchens or like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or, you know, whoever.

Basically, you've got two people that are debating each other. And like, how often do they convince each other that they're wrong? Like, it's like damn close to zero. So if we really look at debate, the purpose of debate is for two people to disagree with each other. Or like, let's look at political debate. So how often does, let's say, a liberal candidate convince a conservative candidate that the conservative candidate is wrong?

Like, never. How often does a conservative candidate convince a liberal? candidate that they're wrong. The answer is never. So if you think about debate for a second, so take a step back and think about what's the purpose of a debate, it's not to convince the other person, it's to convince the audience. It's to convince hopefully the neutral parties that are listening. So the first thing that I want you all to dispense with is any kind of debate or argument if you actually want to convince someone of something. Okay. It is the worst way to convince someone. So if you prove them wrong, you're not going to convince them you're right. In fact, you're going to do

the absolute opposite. And oftentimes what happens in situations like this is the more evidence you have on your side, the more the other person feels bullied and persecuted because they can't defend themselves. But just because they can't defend themselves doesn't mean that they're going to change their mind. They're just going to feel attacked and you're going to make them feel like an idiot, which is going to cause them to dig their heels in more and push back against what you're trying to convince them of. So just let go of like trying to convince them through argument because it's not going to work. second thing is let go of judgment okay so most people like assume that they're right but what we so

like i think i'm right the other person thinks that they're right and if you go into a conversation like convince that the other person is an idiot and is wrong your chances of convincing them are like very very low instead what you need to do is go in assuming that they are right and do your level best to understand their perspective now how does this help It does a couple of things. The first and I think most important one is something called emotional mirroring. So back when I was like working in the emergency, like an emergency psychiatry, which is something I really enjoyed doing. So I even did extra, you know, I work like weekends and stuff in hospitals. So in the emergency room, like sometimes you'll get people who are like high on cocaine. Okay.

So I'm going to ask you all a question. So if I get a patient who's high on cocaine and I step into the room and they start yelling at me, they're like, who the F are you? Like, what are you doing here? I want to get out of here right away. Like screw you. Screw the establishment. Screw all psychiatrists. What's the right thing for me to do? What should I do? What do you all think? So everyone's saying,

calm them down. Diffuse, leave. Incorrect. What you should do is yell back. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but it works magic. Okay? So this is what happens.

I start yelling back. I'm like, bro, what the hell is wrong with you? I just walked in the door. You don't even know my name and you're yelling at me? I'm a doctor. I'm here to help you. I showed up here to try to figure out what I can do for you. I'm not your enemy.

Like, I literally walked in the room to try to figure out why the hell you're here, whether you need to be here. And I'm the guy who you're supposed to talk to so you can get the hell out of here. Why are you yelling at me? And then what happens? So then I match his emotional level. And then I reduce mine. And then I take a step back and then I apologize to him. And I say to him, bro, I'm sorry.

Like, I just walked in the door. You yelled at me. like it's not fair. Like, I can't imagine what you've been through. Seems like you don't want to be here. Seems like maybe you don't need to be here. And I'm coming in, you're yelling at me. Honestly, I've been working for 14 hours on this shift.

It was unfair for me to yell at you. And so the first thing is like, you know, he's escalating. Like when I'm escalating and then when I toned down, he's like, what? He gets confused. And then like, like, he gets down to his level. And then most of the time, what happens is he apologizes too. So I know it sounds kind of bizarre, but you can even do this like in a video game.

So if someone, flames me. Sometimes what I'll do is flame them back a little bit. And then I'll apologize. And it completely takes like the air out of them. They're like, screw you. And I'm like, screw you. They're like, you fed like, like supports not warding. And I'm like, screw you. You fed mid two times. And then I'll say, I'm sorry, bro. It's like not your fault. I should have warded. Like, you know, I'm having a rough day. I've lost two games in a row. My bad. And then it's like kind of hard. Like they don't really know what to do. Kind of confuses when you say it never happens in my game, so I'd encourage you all to try it out. So online games

are also tough because you're like handicapped in terms of communication because half the time they're not even paying attention to your saying. So I'm not saying it's like 100%. But emotionally mirroring and like lots of like, you know, Harvard Business Review and places like that, we'll write all these articles about, you know, emotional mirroring and interviews and like if someone else crosses their legs, like you should cross your legs to. If someone else, like if you're in an interview or you're asking for promotion and your boss like picks his nose and eats it like you should pick your nose and eat it too because you're emotional mirroring. I think some of that stuff is like a little bit silly. But it turns out that our brain does have this circuit that like mirrors like what

other human beings are doing. It's also why like if you think about it, you know, like if everyone's at the funeral crying, like it's easier for you to cry. Like you can walk into a room where everyone's laughing and like you'll start smiling. You don't even understand why. Okay. So this is why you should let go of judgment and treat them with respect. Right. So like understand for a moment that most human beings are like within the bell curve of like normal IQ. People aren't stupid, right? If they believe something, there's a damn good reason they believe it. Now, their reasons may not be factually correct, but inside their mind, there's absolutely a coherent logical structure in their mind. No one thinks, oh, I don't want to get vaccinated because I'm not

logical and I'm an idiot. No one thinks that, right? Like, everyone thinks they're smart. Everyone thinks they're logical. And in their mind, there is a logical system. So approach the conversation free of judgment and respecting the other person from the get-go. Understand that this human being, chances are, is like basically just as smart as I am. And they have come to this conclusion and they hold this conclusion very, very strongly. So I need to understand how they got to this conclusion. Okay? So the next thing. thing is, so as you talk to them, like, don't try to convince them that they're wrong. Try to understand that process of how they got to their conclusion and genuinely try to understand

it. And as if they are wrong, like so with anti-vaxxers, for example, you're going to sense weaknesses in their argument. And so that's when the debater with you is going to be like, hey, that's dumb. Hey, what about this? And you're going to want to pounce on the weakness of their argument and show them in that moment how they are wrong and you were right. That is 100% a mistake. So anytime you see a weakness in your argument, don't attack. Express confusion. Okay. So if something doesn't line up to you, they're the expert and you're the idiot and express confusion and be like, hey, I'm confused for a second. Like you're saying that science can't be trusted. But generally speaking, like I thought that you're taking, you know, like medications and stuff. Like you're taking your asthma medication. Can you help me understand like why you trust asthma medication, but you don't. don't trust the like the COVID information. I'm a little bit confused about that. And so they may say, oh, well, like, people have been taking asthma medication for years or like my doctor actually recommended this to me and I trust my doctor and my doctor knows me really well. And so like,

no, they won't they won't get pissed as long as you genuinely ask and assume that they're correct. Right. So you just like when you notice some problem, don't attack because our, the reason they get defensive and they get pissed is because we attack. We say, hey, it's dumb for you to think that way. don't you see this contradiction? It's not a contradiction. It's just something, it's a gap in your understanding. So ask them to educate you about the gap in your understanding. Hey, I don't understand that. Because on the one hand, I know you take asthma medication. On the other hand, you don't trust this. So like, help me understand why one of these is trustworthy and the other one isn't. It's not, ha ha, you should trust it. You see you're trusting it over here and not trusting it over there.

Ha ha, gotcha. Don't do that. Be like genuinely like there could be a reason, right? Some people may take asthma a medication but won't take Clozapine. That has nothing to do with a general distrust of science. It's because there could be all kinds of reasons, right? It's like, one causes me to gain 100 pounds and drool. And the other one helps me breathe easier. That's why I

take one and not the other. So don't point out the contradiction as an attack, which is what most people do. That comes from the debating mentality, which is used to convince a third party, not the person you're debating. So once you've understood them, kind of repeat back their argument and say, okay, here, I understand.

I understand that like, you know, the MRI technology is new and you don't really trust it because we don't have any long-term data on how it works, which is like true, right? We don't really have long-term. You're willing to take some vaccines because like the polio vaccine, for example, people have been given for 50 years. And so you understand it. Say, oh, it makes a lot of sense to me. Then ask them for permission to share your point of view. Okay? So you can say, like, is it okay if I share with you like why I decided to get a vaccine and how I'm looking at it?

And then address in, when you share their point of view, what you kind of want to do is like address some points of their their perspective, which you kind of disagree with, but do so in a kind of a non-judgmental way. And you can say like, you know, on the one hand, I totally get that like, you know, this vaccine is a new technology and may cause some problems and we don't really know. At the same time, like I think that based on the science that I've looked at, like it seems like, you know, that the side effects of the vaccine are quite small and concede their points wherever you can. but still like hold your own, right? So you can say that, you know, I understand why you're saying A, B, and C, but like based on the way that I'm looking at it and I think of like D, E and F. You're not trying to convince them. You're just asking them if they're willing to try to understand your point of view. And here's where the emotional mirroring comes in, because if you've made a concerted effort to understand their point of view and treat them with respect, it'll be like magic.

They will do the same for you. And you'll walk away from that conversation with them thinking, you are. are like reasonable for your beliefs. Like I'm not saying it's like 100%. You got a die hard anti-vaxxer. Like you have to do some work to get there. But generally speaking, like if you treat their views with respect, they will

treat your views with respect. And then you get to a very special place where you can treat each other with respect and still disagree. And then ask for their opinion about what you believe. And you can say, what do you think about what I believe? Like by all means, like help me understand

do you think what I believe is like fair to believe? Do you think it's idiotic? Like, what do you think about what I believe? So let them be the final judge. And once they sort of make that final judgment, this is the kind of tricky thing, is then in the last step, especially for like antivaxers, that's where I would say like you lay your boundary. Now that we both understand like both sides of the equation and you understand their point of view, they understand your point of view, that's where you can say like, I'm going to lay the boundary. You can say, I understand where you're coming from. Based on the data, I've seen that, you know, people who are vaccinated.

like that more people are vaccinated are getting sick, like 96% of people hospitalized in the ICU are unvaccinated. And that also vaccines don't offer complete protection, which is exactly what you said. So I completely agree with that, which is precisely why I don't want anyone in my house that hasn't been vaccinated. Because even though we've been vaccinated, the protection isn't complete. And so I totally understand and respect where you're coming from. Like it makes sense to me. I'm so happy you explained it. I still won't have you over because, you know, I personally, here's my point of view, which I'm grateful that you've understood. Then you can lay your boundary with them.

And that's kind of bizarre, but like as you have these conversations like over and over again with anti-vaxxers, it oftentimes takes time. Like you can't do it all in one session. But with people like, you know, convincing people to do things, like it can sometimes take time. But that's kind of how you do it, right? Even when we were talking about like alcohol addiction, they'll say, yeah, like drinking isn't a problem or like smoking pot. Like smoking pot isn't a problem.

This is the problem. Oh, help me understand. while smoking a pot isn't a problem. And then you kind of listen to me, oh, I see what you're saying. Like, that makes sense. Here's what my experience is as a psychiatrist. Can I share that with you? Then you kind of share your point of view.

You kind of ask them, does that make sense? Like, what do you think about that? Is it incorrect in some ways? Am I logically incorrect? Like, by all means, let me know. Oh, I see what you're saying. That makes sense. And then sort of like ask,

and then sort of like, leave it up to them. Let them be the final judge. And you will be amazed at like how not trying to convince someone is actually the best way of convincing people. So just to kind of summarize, you know, if you want to convince someone of something, the first thing you've got to do is like forget about debating them because convincing them that they're wrong is the worst way to showing them that they're wrong is the worst way to convince them that you're right. It's just not a good effective method. Let go of your judgment and treat them with respect. And like the cool thing is because of emotional mirroring. Like if you respect their views, they will respect your views. Then understand their viewpoint. And if there's something that's logically inconsistent, don't. attack, try to actually get them to understand. And the cool thing is if their view really isn't logical and you ask for explanations in an open-minded way, they'll begin to see their own problems in their arguments, because they can't explain it, right? So, but you don't want to attack because

if you say, ha-ha, then they'll get defensive and they'll push you away. Then what you can do is ask for permission to share your point of view, ask them for feedback about your point of view, and then sort of like lay out your kind of final boundary. Hey, here's what I think. I understand why you think what you think. Here's why I think what I think. I think your view sort of makes sense. I can see how you come to believe that.

At the same time, like I think that there's a lot of things that I have influenced my point of view that you seem to be discounting. So I understand why we disagree because I trust the CDC and the FDA and, you know, it seems like you read a lot of stuff on Facebook that says that they're not to be trusted. So I can understand how we're coming to different conclusions. at the end of the day, what we're going to be doing in this household or in my household is to follow like CDC and FDA guidelines. And I understand that you don't have to believe them, but we're going to choose to. And so I'm sorry, but you're not going to be able to come over. And if you feel persecuted, I can understand why you feel that way, but I genuinely don't think it's something personal. It's just what we're doing what we consider to be safe.

You're doing what you consider to be safe. And those two things just don't line up in the situation. So it's like nothing personal. You can do whatever you want to. It's just we're not going to hang out. with unvaccinated people. And then you'll be surprised, right? What works?

Does that help? Do people get that? So don't attack them because they ain't stupid. Like the first thing, like you got to let go of the idea that other people are stupid.