HealthyGamerGG - How to Save a Relationship from Break Up

Episode Date: July 25, 2020

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Like what are you calling you? Call me Evan. That's my name. Okay. Welcome, Evan. You can call me Alexa. Okay. Nice to meet you, Alexa, and Evan.

So I understand that we're going to be talking about your relationship today. Yes. Okay. And so let me just try to outline a little bit about how I usually like to do this. So I like to talk to each person individually for like maybe 30 to 45 minutes and get y'all's individual perspective. because especially I understand there's some kind of tension in y'all's relationship. I imagine that's why we're coming on. Okay.

And so we want to hear from each of you individually. And that also gives you guys kind of a chance to, you know, speak freely without the other person there. I mean, I understand this has been recorded for the internet. So a couple of ground rules. No watching. Okay. So you can't watch the stream while you're not in the room. Okay.

And maybe even no watching afterward. And then after talking to each of you, we'll kind of get you all in together and see if we can sort of facilitate some kind of communication or how. Does that sound okay? So who wants to go first? You can go first, babe. I'll go first. I'll go first. Okay.

All right. So, Alexa, do you mind stepping out of the room? Yeah, no problem. No watching. No watching. Evan, it looks like we have the same chair, man. Chair purse. Oh, IKEA.

Yeah. Oh, yours has something. Does mine do that? What's up and up. Oh, wow. You have a better one. It's fancier. Cool.

So Evan, tell me a little bit about why you know, why you guys decided to come on stream, which thank you, by the way. Yeah. Thanks for having us. I, well, we recently moved cities together. Okay. We've been in a relationship for like five years. Okay.

Coming up about five years. We're 22. kind of young. And I wouldn't say there's a, like, urgent issue that arises. Sure. It's much more of a sort of passive background feelings, I think, that we have about it and, like, insecurities and kind of, yeah, the question we posed of when to break up, which is not something either of us actively want.

Like we very much feel in love. And our day-to-day is like usually very good and productive and cohesive. We work both together. We communicate well. But there are things that arise over time where they're just sort of like no-go zones, I guess. And that's a great way to put it. Has put like, yeah, frustration in me over time because. And personally, I am much more like focused in on the thing.

Once I know the no goes on, I get fixated with it over time and I respect it to a degree. But once it comes up, it's hard for me to have any other perspective on it than the one that we left off on. Sure. Yeah. So let me just make sure I understand you. So it sounds like there are some, you know, the. The day-to-day interaction in your relationship is good. It sounds like you guys love each other.

And there's some taboo topics. Yes. And so you guys sort of, it sounds like you all don't talk about them because that usually leads to conflict. So you guys have realized, for the sake of harmony, we're going to steer clear of that area. Yeah. There's PVE zones and there's PVP zones. Yes. Good.

I like that. And so you're like, okay, we don't want to play PVP. But the problem is that those seem to be on some level important things. And now you know that there's like some zone that's like taboo. That issue never gets settled. So it's kind of weighing on you. Yeah. Okay.

And it increases over time almost. And especially given like the recent like moving, there's, there's much more like on the line, I guess. So those... Okay. Can you tell us... Can you be a little bit more specific? So, like, what's an example of a no-go zone? Um, I think, uh, like breaking up or sort of, uh, like talking about the end of something

where they're, uh, you know, it's kind of what, it's very like either together forever or it happens at some point. And I... feel a certain like yeah that that that bothers me I guess what bothers you uh like the fact that it has to end and go like one way or the other okay and I know and I yeah like like every day I can be like okay well you take it one day at a time you you make today a good day yada but um and like some other like different uh I don't want to get too specific, but different ways we care for our mental health.

She might do something and treat herself one way. I might do it another. So we're talking about self-care and the way that you guys differ. Like, the way that, you know, so there are differences in the ways that you care for yourselves. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I and

where I'll I just have an opinion on something and I think she shouldn't and I understand this is a flat

same but that's not the way she should be approaching the problem sort of and I get again like when

she shouldn't be doing something yeah whenever the topic comes up I stay at that stance even though I

I'm trying to be supportive and, like, dynamic and see the perspectives and just supportive of however she thinks she needs to be. I find myself being incredibly curious about what you're saying and at the same time also wanting to respect your privacy around it. If you can give me like five seconds, I don't think she'd have a problem with me mentioning what it is, but I just want to make sure it's okay with her. Yep. Thank you. That's solid, by the way. That's what we want, right? We got the green light.

Okay. So what are we talking about? Well done, by the way. Evan. Thank you. Yeah. I do my best. Antidepressants, we'll say.

Like, she, this is not a medical stream. I know that. But she will, you know, going through a hard time, one of her ways of like, she's on them and particularly rough period, period chose to like increase after and I guess my perspective on it is she's been on them forever for a very long time and I've always seen the goal as like decreasing those like not having a dependence or like think things will be good for a very long period of time but she's still taking them and that seems odd to me okay so yeah if that has

Okay. So, and how do you care for yourself when you're going through a rough time? I mean, like any other gamer, I'd say. I withdraw. I hide. I, yeah, have had less, not much lately, but used to recreationally drug use. And generally, kind of like suppressing and that kind of stuff. Sure. healthier ways of doing this, I think, are really just like talking to people I've found and having relationships helps me a ton in processing those in a good way instead of just not thinking about them, planning legal legends. You all new? Yes.

Okay. So it sounds like sometimes you guys have kind of arguments about perspectives around taking medication and, you know, being dependent on substances. And so that's kind of one of the no-go zones. It sounds like another no-go zone is sort of talking about where your relationship is going. Yeah. And this ventures into sort of like, yeah, the expectations of relationships. Like, we've always, we've always...

What kind of expectations are we talking about? Like, when we first started dating, we both used this phrase that we big picture liked each other. We, like, liked each other on the big... It wasn't like, just like, oh, you're fun to hang out with a couple times a week. We were like, no, this is... We really like each other, and the timing in our lives was such that we could think on that level. level. And it's like, worked really well and she's in school. I'm not. I just work. And we've chugged along with this, but there is, yeah, I guess I feel like an expectation to live up to that

me five years ago who was saying that sometimes. And I'm sorry, what were you saying exactly? Oh, that like, that we like big picture like each. other that we're in this for the long haul that we know that we may not always like each other but we love each other sort of okay in it for the long haul and so do you feel bound by making that commitment years ago um i feel a responsibility i feel i guess i feel bound by that responsibility to and what is the responsibility um to be there for her and would breaking up with her mean not being there for her? Yes.

Okay. What do you think about that? I mean, and you've got me, they, it does. What is it? Oh, no, because I imagine, I don't see it going, us breaking up in a, like, peaceful, we can still be friends kind of way,

even though I think we're mostly friends more than, like, lovers or anything. that I don't know what that would look like at all to be able to support her but not be dating. And so, I mean, so Evan, I'm going to say something that may be judgmental, but I'm just going to toss it out there, okay? You got to let me know if it's, it makes you feel bad or if it's wrong. So I'm hearing that a major reason you're in the relationship is out of a sense of responsibility as opposed to like wanting to be in the relationship itself. Yeah. I think that's more my cynical view of time, at times.

Sure. Well said. And there is, like, then there's, obviously, I think, or not obviously, I've learned throughout time going at therapy and things that the value of relationships and that I need relationships and that they do just improve my life, even if it seems hard in the short run. so I yeah and there's there's some other thing there of like being too comfortable in this and like knowing how it's gonna go and it's yet safe because it is how it's always been for the past while instead of the scary unknown and how do you feel about that um I I do feel like I should at times I feel like I should sacrifice what I have the comfort that I have to get something better I guess is the idea that I hear a lot but also at the same time when I

think of what that actually looks like and actually going through that it doesn't feel like something I want I feel like it would be a mistake okay can I think for a second? Please. Okay. Here's what I'm hearing. So it sounds like your relationship is good for a lot of reasons. You know, it sounds like you guys have been together for five years and you said you're 22,

so you guys got together when you were 17. Yep. You know, early on, y'all were very much in love and it sounds like y'all are still in love. And you made kind of, as 17-year-olds do, broad commitments. We're going to do it for

rest of our life. You also recognize, and so years have gone on, you guys have gotten through a lot together. You've moved in together, you know, like any relationship, you guys have your challenges, but I'm hearing that there's a lot of good stuff there. I'm hearing that for your own stability, that being in a relationship is important. I'm hearing that the relationship has become comfortable, safe, dependable. maybe there's more. I'm getting the sense that something is missing from your relationship.

I'm not sure exactly what that is. Maybe there is something missing. Maybe there isn't. We can get to that in a second. But overall, it seems like the relationship is good. It sounds like Alexa is maybe your best friend. Absolutely. And so, you know, there's a lot of good stuff there.

what I'm hearing from you, Evan, is a but. But. So like if we think about life, do we want to choose the road that's safe? There's a path of certainty and safety, and there's a path of uncertainty. There's a path, there's like a risk, like a high risk and a low risk option. And what I'm hearing you kind of struggle with is like, how do you know when you should do something that, like, you kind of know is good for you versus how do you grow? Because what I'm really hearing from you is that, like, you're not growing in this relationship anymore.

Yes. I think that's very accurate. Right? And that's tricky. Because, like, how much of this relationship, sure, I mean, this is what I envision. It's kind of like, you know, there's the waters around our island, which we know well and which are safe. but at what point do you decide to like pack as much food as you can into your boat and sail into the horizon and see what you can find? Is that how you feel? Yeah, yeah. And especially with another person involved, the decision gets like muddied very quickly because... How does another person muddy the decision?

Well, I mean, it's, I feel that I should take her feelings into account, right? I feel like even I need to venture off into uncertainty. And I'm like, well, there's plenty of other ways I can do that. That doesn't necessarily mean like ending this relationship. You can install Dota, for example. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just started playing Counterstrike. And that's, I'm like, a new way to waste my time.

Cool. But there's, yeah. Sorry, I lost the point. No, I mean, so you were saying that when another person gets involved, it gets complicated. So, like, how, like, so how does taking her feelings into account? How does that complicate things? I'd say because there's, there's no, like, one to one on my feeling versus your feeling. Like, and obviously one individual, another individual, but the, like, levels of feeling and the

attachments and the like need for someone else at a certain time and it um the like specificity of thinking about uh like changing things up gets okay overwhelming that was okay so so what i'm hearing is that the details of how you go off sailing into the sunset become really complicated when you have to think about someone else yeah yeah and especially I think the feelings have arose at this time. Which feelings? The feelings of uncertainty and like almost like lost possibilities like that I'm like yet committed on a path now of some certainty having like moved in together in a new city. Mm-hmm.

Hmm. How does it feel to have lost those possibilities? It's, it like, it hurts, it hurts my ego or something inside of me where it, I, I want to, like, do a lot, whatever that means. And, like, I have, yeah, friends who have done things for the same period of time that I've, like, been in this relationship. and I almost do one to one compare those things where I'm like, well, they have this degree or this project or this like organization going and I have a relationship. Cool. Yeah, I'm a little bit. Help me understand what how the relationship interferes with, let's say, having a degree or a project. I think, yeah, yeah, I think, and maybe I'm getting to.

abstract but I think it is like an identity thing of feeling some tie to be a similar person to who I was when this started. What does that mean? Um, like I mean at the time we met it was last year of high school and I was like, nope, not going to college I'm gonna I'm gonna work I worked at a restaurant and I'm independent very like I'm gonna read books and philosophize on my own and like be this uh individual and I like that voice you did when you said philosophize on my own yeah you can always do it's fun um and yeah I guess I just I guess I'm not yet sure why I feel like there's less opportunity or less

opportunities available to me but I do feel like there's less opportunities available to me because I'm in this okay okay okay so you sound to me like you're feeling like you're stagnating or shackled in some way I wouldn't use those words but yes the feeling is yeah so what words would you use? I mean, I would say stuck or kind of dormant. Oh, dormant is a good one.

Ooh, I like that one. I'm going to have to start using that one more. So much more positive than stuck. Yes, I think I'm very good. Cute reading philosophy books on your own. Okay. And so can you help me understand, like, what happens when you go into a no-go zone when you switch from co-op to versus?

Yeah, yeah. It is like it's almost as if the lights change and the like spotlight comes down on us. And the, I mean, what it literally is is very much like attention arises. And we both are sort of usually not saying anything because we both know. the space that we're going to be entering. We both know like the scripts that we usually go down, which is like, okay. Why, like, yeah, why did you increase that or like, well, you're going to have to go down?

Like, so you're going to be on it forever? You know, like, there's, there's kind of things and very much waiting for someone to make a move and sort of, and then maybe like. You guys start to circling each other. Yeah, you like, maybe like provoke them and you're like, hello? Like, hello? You know, you try to get them to come out a bit. Make them to make the first move so you can counterattack.

Exactly. Yeah, no, we always, and we're both like, so argumentative people. So it's a lot of posturing, but not, it doesn't, we have, like, engaged and had, like, large fights and crying and everything. What is that? How does, how do you guys have a large fight? What does that look like? Um, I mean, it is mostly talking. I don't, we phrase our voices, not too much. We're not big yellers and violent people. But like, what gets set? Like, what is an actual argument? Like, if I were to watch this for five minutes, what would it look like?

Um, it would look like me sitting, like a armchair philosopher, just kind of like trying to, as if I do have the divine knowledge of what is, what should. and shouldn't be done. Her much more like fidgeting or she is much more likely to like get up and leave like either to a different room or the house or take the dog for a walk or something and I think she is much more like expressive and I call her out for calling me names often even though the names probably are fitting at times. What does she say? Just like asshole, jerk, douche, you know. And because, yeah, and it is, like, I'm trying to maintain.

And what are you doing that makes asshole warranted? Acting as if I know the answer, I'd say. But you feel like you know the answer in those moments. Yes, yes. which is why it's frustrating. You know, it's interesting because what I'm envisioning is almost like a courtroom where you're the judge. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah.

Like she's sitting down there and you're sitting up there in your armchair and relatively. She's got theatrics and I'm just like making the final judgment. Yep. And I, and I, that's also kind of a thing is I, I was like retrospectively or reflectively, uh, don't like that version of myself that like is trying to be more powerful than her in some way. That's trying to like maintain control and like embarrass her or something.

Yeah. Where does that version of yourself come from? Um, I, I'd say I'm a, I'm a youngest of, I have three older sisters. which helps in just like communicating with her. But I have always been like a very reserved.

They all talk and discuss and I'm much more of to like sit there and then add a joke at the end or add a comment kind of thing. Sort of observational nature, I'd say. Okay. Let me actually ask you kind of one or two other questions if that's okay. I'm going to switch gears a second. Can you tell me what the no-go zone of talking about y'all's relationship looks like? How does that conversation go? Like breaking up, you mean?

It's very, that's much more like sad. It's much more like crying in bed, like holding each other kind of like a supportive, like, a supportive, like, like less of an argument and more of a like joint feeling. How do you guys get there? That's what I'm like. Okay. You know, is it like, how does it work today? It was good.

Do you want to get into bed and pry well we hold each other and think about breaking? That's only on the weekends. You got a very funny one. Very funny. Thank you. there's usually some yeah you obviously some sort of trigger for all of this um and usually i think it's pretty variable it's not we're not usually based on any tell me the last time that you guys wound up in bed crying together and how that conversation started um i think i

brought up the like what initiated at all was like i my feeling was that we're too much friends that like I feel like we're roommates almost okay and so what that was the feeling what happened uh I mean about that I think she her initial response was kind of so you said to her I feel like we're roommates yeah okay she said back like um what do you mean like is this like a do you mean like is it not enough like together time doing things uh like kind of inquiring more and i said i i replied that it's just much more of a feeling of the whole relationship you know i kind of drop a yeah it's kind of a more of try yeah i guess just expressing my feeling instead of doing anything.

And then she'll say, like, so what do you mean by that? Like, so what can I do? She, you know, she kind of looks for something to do. And I said, like, and then maybe I'll, like, throw some things out there, but she'll talk or she'll start going on, like, bringing things up from the past of, like, instances where we were like good or bad in like we were good friends or we were like not good friends or um and so i think i think she just or refute your point yeah yeah and it was like sort of give me her the things that come to her mind of like why that's clearly not the case

got and why from like her perspective obviously we're not friends because friends wouldn't do this or that um i just that there's a higher tier of relationship to it um and i think it's like there that like my feeling versus her facts um sort of just like saddens us because i'm i'm like well i have this Like, this is all I have to offer to you. And she's like, well, I was living in this world. And now you're telling me that you were living in this world. And that, like, we both want, we both want. And then kind of like the presupposition of wanting to be together is never in question.

It's always just like, then it just gets very sad because we feel like that's, yeah, crumbling in some way. what's crumbed? Our love or our understanding of each other, our ability to relate. Okay. And help me understand a little bit about what your perspective is on antidepressants. And it's, I mean, you don't have to, I would encourage you to not worry about judgment. Although I imagine that can be hard. but generally speaking, I just genuinely, because I think understanding how you feel about things

kind of is very important without judgment. Yeah. So I guess I'll start with my experience of antidepressants, which was very much, I mean, I was depressed gamer, doing depressed gamer things. Right off. And I feel like the antidepressants at the time almost. blurred everything more where it was just like a more monotone existence of what I was already doing. Very like, yeah, the dulling effect.

I think I was taking, I took two or three different of the most common varieties. And then, yeah, went through a few mental health institutions. They were throwing the kitchen sink at me and everything. And I think, I can't. out the other end still having a feeling but also having like a confidence what I gained from all of that was not like a prescription or a diagnosis or anything but it was like a confidence in myself to like okay well none of these idiots could do it none of these drugs actually did anything but like I am the one who can choose to do stuff and like make a life I

want or whatever. And yeah, I guess I just see them very much as a crutch and as a way of lifting the bottom up to a place where they can start to be helped. Like there is there is a bottom that I've been at and I've seen people at where like yeah, you just need more serotonin and you need more dopamine or whatever and when we like are on trips and like there's months and months and months where everything is like fantastic it's like it i like i like to think i like to think that i'm very mindful of like what i eat and what i put in my body and the idea of like taking something that makes you feel better while like everything is good around you seems uh drone-ish to me. Seems very like just doing what you are supposed to.

Okay. What the doctor ordered, which is not, I guess, in authority I necessarily like. Okay. Okay. So I'm detecting, you know, something of your independent streak coming up here too, right? This idea that I'm going to study philosophy on my own to be independent and fuck the doctor's the establishment. and I don't want to be a drone. Yes, exactly. Very much.

Cool. So what goes through your mind when you see Alexa upping her dose? And does she up at herself or her doctor tells her to increase? I mean, the most recent one and why this is relevant

was her reaching out for it. Okay. Which, yeah, aggravated me more than if it was just a doctor telling it, because I understand just listening to. What aggravates you about her reaching out to her doctor? Well, I thought the, like, there was clear indicators during the time period where she was

feeling worse. Like, she was just spending a lot of time with her family who really stresses her out and trains her and asks a lot of her. And not, like, we moved, but she had to leave town to go help them for a while and not having a home. And there's so many more circumstantial things to me that seems like just a random, like, it'd be like, ah, I don't think my phone, it's like taking a, or it's just not, doesn't seem like a relevant level to be adjusting. It doesn't seem like a skill you need to be boosting, right? now, to me, it's just kind of a, you're only, like, increasing the, like, dependence.

Okay. When you could very much just, like, take some time, reorient yourself and start from there, because, and I guess this all is, like, I have some idea that the goal is to be off of them. And I see that as a, like, step in the wrong direction. Yeah. Yeah. Evan, do you feel like Alexa, Alexa, underline? I think she understands me the best of anyone.

I think I won't, I'll give you the short version of like, I grew up not feeling very understood by my mom. My parents were divorced and we did like a week at one house, week at the other house. And I felt like my dad understood me very well, but my mom totally didn't. And there's this eternal, like, hiding from people presenting a certain facade to, like, everyone most of the time. And in order to protect myself, I guess, or something. Okay. And I think she understands a lot of me, but that almost, when she says things that imply that she understands what I'm going through, through, that almost angers me because I'm like, no, you don't actually get it. Like, this is

actually a new thing. I'm going to ask you again. Does she understand you? Not entirely. Okay. Okay. So is this relationship safe for you? I feel safe in it. Is this relationship good for you? That's the question. That's, that's, yeah, what I've felt both sides. of that. Okay. Do you want to be in this relationship? I feel like I want to. I guess I think that ties into whether it's good for me.

I feel like I want things that are good for me. So I want to be in it, but I also don't want to be doing things that are bad for me. Okay. Are you afraid that if you, or in this relationship, you won't live the life that you're supposed to live. Yes. Okay. So I think that's the crux of it is what I'm getting from you.

Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. Any questions for me? What's it with the chairs today behind you? You've chairs behind you. Yeah. I think that, you know, we're still sort of moving in.

so I also have a couple of boxes that need to be cleared out. And so, yeah, I mean, it's just more furniture in my office. No, no other questions regarding my relationship. Yeah, so I think I've kind of heard, I think you've done an awesome job of kind of representing what you're going through. And, you know, I think I feel like I'm ready to kind of get some of Alexis perspective. And I also want to make sure that we have enough time to talk to the two of you together. So if there's something that, is there anything that you feel like we didn't cover or left out or sort of didn't get to that you want to share? I don't want to spend much time on it, but the, I guess I'd say, like being a gamer, dating a non-gamer is a interesting thing.

And that, like, I was generic Twitch chat user. And at a certain point, like, nothing changed. I just fell into this relationship, and I still feel that way. And I guess more so I'm just saying, like, to everybody that it, yeah, being in a relationship isn't, like, isn't fixing anything. there isn't going to fix you inherently. Like the eunis is still there for sure. Okay.

Okay, cool. Can you call Alexa in? Yes, we will switch. Thank you very much. Thank you. So any takers on the idea that the reason that he's not moving forward in life is going to be because he plays too many video games from Alexa's perspective. Because he didn't really talk about the video games.

I'm curious whether we're going to see video games. Hey. I guess she can't hear we got. Ooh. Hey, Alexa. Hello, did I get a good review? Yeah, I don't think, oddly enough, we didn't really talk much about. Oh, imagine that.

But, okay, so can you tell me a little bit about your understanding of why we're talking today? Yeah. So, okay. Well, I think this, like, starts with the fact that, like, Evan and I live very different. lives, but we're together because we have similar values and morals, and we obviously, like, care about each other and we love each other very much. But I think there is this, like, looming idea that since because we live, or because we live such different lives, perhaps we aren't compatible for a long term. I know, like, when we started dating, people always made,

like comments about how different we were and like both of our families did um yeah and i guess like me a data point of why i think this is a problem is um so like we love each other but we will have like moments of like very intense amcity towards one another i think is like common in relationships but um yeah we can't ever really like talk through these things so like If like, I guess this happens a lot, like, I'll be talking too loudly in a restaurant and like it is probably too loudly. And I'm like, baby, be quiet. And I'll just be like, why are you telling me what to do? Like, leave me alone.

And then we just like don't talk like for like the remainder of dinner or whatever. So it's weird because we communicate so well together most of the time, but we just can't get over these incidences that I think are tied to our long term looming questions of compassion. ability. Okay. Can you give us, that was a great example. Can you give us another example of how animosity develops between you two? Um, yeah. Okay. Like so many to choose from. Um, okay. Okay. Let's, oh, okay, this is a good one. Um, so like, I feel like definitely previous before quarantine. I, like, come and go a lot and I like like to be busy probably to a fault but I always like to be doing something be out of the house like rarely find me just chilling um and I'd be like bopping in and out of the house and Evan would be like playing games and I just kind of like wait in the kitchen to say hi

or like pop my head in and like stand in the kitchen or something kind of like waiting I don't know and I think he feels just like I think he internalizes that like maybe he's playing video games too long but I think I genuinely don't care because I realize I just fill my time by probably some negative way being too busy and he feels his time playing video games I think in a similar way but then he'll come out and be like there's just like this weird mood that like we aren't really like we're talking around each other instead of talking at each other Um, then it's like, I think sometimes Evan is like quick to, um, react quicker than I am. And then I'm like, well, I'll meet you there. I just won't talk to you. Like, and it's very adaptive behavior. I know. What do you mean? Meet him where? Like at his like crappy mood. And his like quick to react nature. And when you say you're talking, you're kind of circling around something? What are you all circling around? Each other, which is probably the problem. like he and up yeah so so this is really helpful and i'm missing i'm losing you somewhere or i'm

losing track so i kind of get that okay so it sounds like you kind of pop home like you're going doing something you kind of come home he's gaming so you're like i don't know why i would sit around so then you leave again you do something for a little while you come back and then what is how do you guys start to circle or interact because it sounds like somewhere in there a foul mood is brewing. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a problem is, like, we don't know where it starts. And so, like, I would be standing in the kitchen, like, making lunch or something.

And he would come out and be like, hey, babe, how are you doing? I'm like, good. How are you? And they're like, good. And then both just, like, look at each other. And then it's almost like I feel unwelcome. So like I give him like the kola shoulder or like negative body language. Or well like.

What kind of thoughts do you have about him? Like in those moments. Yeah. I think I react so negatively to that because I feel like perhaps I'm being judged for the busy nature. in which I live my life. And let's see. Probably also that I would like to come home and be like a warmly embraced. Yeah.

And I know like logically, like he's in the middle of the game. He can't come up. And I know I'm his priority in his life. But like in those moments, I can't be the priority. So these are things I logically know, but somewhere along the line. Okay. Judge for the busy nature of your life. Do you feel judged for the busy nature of your life?

I think before I started dating Evan, I thought of this as like a positive characteristic that I would never stop. but I'm becoming more and more aware of how I use my, like, enjoyment of being busy as a way to not deal with my issues. So when I am around Evan, who lives a very, like, quiet life, I think, he doesn't, like, I find joy, like, going out of the house and doing things, and he just doesn't. So I think it's, like, my lifestyle is juxtaposed to his very staunch to him. very staunchly in those moments. So what do you use your busy lifestyle as a coping mechanism for? Well, I think, I think that if I'm busy, I have, like, no time to not be okay or to, like, not be, like, if I'm busy, I can't process my emotions.

I can just, like, file them. And then, like, obviously this is a problem. When I'm not busy, then everything comes crashing to the ground. And what kind of stuff comes crashing to the ground when you're not busy? Well, or is that the kitchen scenario you described? No, that's not the kitchen scenario. Let's see. What kind of stuff?

You're looking for like behavior? So when you're not busy, what happens? So you're saying that you use busy as a coping mechanism. Maybe it sounds like he uses gaming as a coping mechanism. Yeah. So I'm not busy. I'm like sad. What are you sad about?

Everything that I haven't processed emotionally. So like relationships with my family. I think I like judge myself a lot for, I think we all do. but let's see. I judge myself for not, like, mediating those relationships better. With your family? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have thoughts about Evan when you're standing still? In your all's relationship? This is interesting. I feel like Evan is, like, really in my corner on life right now. and understands like he listens to me a lot. He's a very good listener.

And I don't always feel like members of my family are able to listen to me in that way. So, yeah, I think Evan's like the best cheerleader I have in my life. Wow. Sounds like he supports you very well. Yeah, I'm very lucky. Yeah. So in a selfish way, most of the time I'm not thinking about EF. Evan. But when I do, I know I like catastrophize things. So like, Emin is like quick to anger about,

it's normally like little things like, it was like heating up water on the stove the other day. He's like, I just hate the sound the stove makes. Like, just like kind of crackles. And I was like, oh, well, like, I can stop it. And he's like, no, don't do that. And I just like stop it thinking like, I'll solve this problem by like eliminating the fact that the stow was even crackling. And then he's like, why did you do that? Like it gets angry. And then in those moments when I shut down, I like begin to think like that's when like the negative thoughts about our relationship come to boil, I guess, come to surface is like I think

the easy things for me to think are like he's failing to see the way I see the world. He's not asking questions about the way I see the world. And like, yeah, and then I lose the fact that he is the biggest advocate of me and my success in my life. And I think the stove boiling is a big metaphor for the destruction of our relationship. What's the metaphor? Like that him like this just demonstrates his inability to see the world I see the way I see the world Ah so this goes back to the compatibility in living different lives Yeah I think so um and like I know saying that now this isn't true but in the moment it feels like

So intense and so founded in truth Okay. I'm going to think for just a second, okay? Okay. So let me ask you a question. Alexa, when you were growing up, did you find that when you felt bad, that you could change something about your behavior that would make people less angry with you? I think I was a mediator in our family. I have two older sisters. My parents said that. very, very turbulent marriage, if you would even call it that, until they got divorced when I was in high school. So I always, yeah. So you always what? I always felt some responsibility to like peacekeep the household, like getting in between altercations I wasn't involved in or like, I just like wanted my family to be happy and didn't understand why they couldn't be.

Okay. And when Evan is like just, you know, hanging around and he says the sound of the water boiling is so annoying, do you know what your first feeling in response to that is? Like fear that my actions are going to make us have a bad day. Like my actions of like choosing to boil water, which like as I say it, I know is ridiculous. Sure, sure, sure. But, yeah, if I'm being honest, that would be it. Yeah. Do you ever get the feeling that he has one foot out the door? No. Okay.

Like, yeah, he didn't have to move with me, and that's probably why I feel some guilt. Like, he absolutely did not have to. Like, I was even, like, contemplating beginning my grab program here if Evan wasn't up to the move. But, yeah, he sacrificed a lot to be with me. Okay. Hmm So he sacrifices a lot to be with you? Yeah

What do you think he gives up? Living close to his friends Um Like time Like he definitely could game more if I wasn't around How much does he gain? I think it depends Like for a while he had

like a break in work. And he was like, I think he was playing. I don't even know what he was playing, but something a lot of hours a day. And like. How many hours per week? I'm not really like keeping a time on it. Maybe like a part time.

I don't know. Maybe like we've been moving. I don't know. So like when he games, I think it's probably like a part time job. Okay, so I'm a little bit, so I'm just trying to get a sense of like what his day looks like. Okay, yeah, I can tell you what his day looks like. So he would like wake up, make breakfast, and then we would like go for a walk together

where he would like, and then we'd come home and there'd be some downtime and he would game. And then I would try to find something to fill the rest of my day. Like I'd go to the gym or like walk my dog again. We're like Yeah And so So are we talking like Five hours a day on average

More or less Probably less than that Okay Yeah Feels like more to me Because I mean What I'm hearing is like You do something in the morning

And then you find something to fill the rest of your day Which then sort of implies to me That he's gaming for the rest of the day? I don't know that that's a fair assumption. Like we always eat dinner together. Okay. And Evan, like, it's a very good cook. I'm very spoiled. Uh, so he makes dinner for... Yeah. Uh, well, he's really into like, uh, like Korean street cooking now. So I'm eating all of these. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he has like bought tools off Amazon and stuff now. So now I know it's like official. Yeah.

Okay. Very spoiled. Yeah, he makes, yeah. So I eat some, like, very impressive dish for dinner. And then we'll, like, spend the rest of the evening, like, watching Netflix together, like, going for another walk or something. Okay. And then he used to, he's, like, trying to regulate his sleep schedule right now. But, like, after, I like to go to bed really early.

But he would, like, often stay up really late and play games. and I think that bothered him that we had such different like schedules, but now seems to be... Does that bother you? What? Does that bother you? Um, like, yes and no. So I used to work morning shifts that would start at 6 a.m. So I would like be up by 5 and like sometimes he would still be up and he would like make me breakfast.

So that was pretty dope. Um, but I mean, like, when he's sleep, if he would sleep in the middle of day, it would be, uh, sometimes difficult. Like, sometimes I would find myself saying like, um, like, why can't you be awake when the rest of the world is? Um, and that's just a difference. I think I fundamentally can't understand. Um, okay. Because I don't like to function at night. I don't know. Yeah. So, Alexa, you know, I'm just going to, point something out. So like it seems strange to me that you're saying he plays and maybe this is just, I just want to clarify, but like I'm envisioning, you know, if you go to bed maybe around 10 and you wake up at five and he's still awake at five, like that's seven hours right there.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose you're right. And I think some days, uh, that is true. And I think it's hard for me to pin down these hours, uh, because it like sometimes will really be into a game and be playing a lot with his friends and like sometimes he won't like we've been moving so there's been no time to play video games for the past like a couple weeks or month probably yeah what i'm hearing from you is that you don't think his gaming is really a problem um i think that's accurate and i also would probably preface that with like i know his mom has made such a big deal about his gaming in his life that like i don't want to be his mother um and it's It's not my job to tell an adult how they should spend their time.

Do you think he should be spending his time differently? It's one thing to not tell him, but do you think he should be spending his time differently? I think he utilizes his time in the best way he thinks he can. And if he can't, he'll ask me for help. And he has, like, hey, babe, can you wake me up when you get up in the morning? And I'm, like, happy to step in and help then. Okay, so I asked you the question, do you think that there's a problem? And you said, I think he thinks that there's a problem.

isn't a problem. And when he thinks there's a problem, he asks for my help. Oh, man. Normally I can pull off these tactics, Dr. Kay. Right. So what do you think, Alex? I think perhaps he would be happier if he had a more balanced life where he could enjoy playing video games in a smaller amount of time every day and not feel as guilty about it. So I'm detecting you've said this a couple of times. So you're picking up that he feels guilty for the amount that he games. Yes.

Now, see, that's interesting because that puts you in a weird situation. Yeah, it's definitely difficult to navigate. But I think I'm more readily able to navigate this space because of, like, my role in my family model growing up. Yep. So. Which is conflict avoidance, mediation, right?

So here's what I think is tricky about your situation, Alexa. on the one hand so it sounds like you understand him pretty well you care about him and you support him and so I'm hearing from you basically because you're not saying you're stepping

around this but I suspect that you think that his gaming is negatively impacting him in some way and even if we take that off the table at least we can acknowledge that he sometimes thinks that now that puts you in a weird situation

because if you want to support him and his goals and help him feel less guilty, then you're kind of stuck because if you start pushing him in that direction, then you become his mom. Yeah, yeah. It's not my job to parent and adult, yeah. Yeah, so that sounds tricky because even if you want to help him, it maybe turns into looking like his mom very, very quickly. So I'm not quite sure what you would do in that situation.

Like, I don't know how to navigate that, right? Yeah, that's correct. I think probably if I was more straightforward, who probably would be having a different conversation today. So here's the other thing, Alexa, that I'm just going to toss out there. I don't know if this is legit or not. But I've gotten the sense that you speak very, very protectively and positively of him. And so that's cool. Like I think everything you say is genuine.

and at the same time, sometimes when people do that, it's like they're almost compensating for something else that they're not saying. Right? So like, do you feel like there are things, ways that you feel about him that maybe because we're on the internet, you don't feel comfortable sharing, which is totally legit. It's just like, you know, here's the picture that I'm getting, right? He's a guy who has moved across whatever for you.

you know, cooks you Korean street food is thoughtful and caring. And sounds like in some ways the perfect boyfriend, sometimes he plays a little bit too much. Sometimes you show up at home and you're kind of like twiddling your thumbs for a little bit and he's like kind of not responsive. And you recognize that, you know, he can't pause the game to come and say hi to you. Or, you know, he can't stop playing. And then you kind of like, you're kind of living your life and he's sort of living his life.

And it sounds like every now. and then you guys like meet at a train station and hang out for a little bit and then you board your separate trains and then you you know and that's the picture that you're painting to me which seems very positive but i'm getting like there's like something underneath the surface here that you guys aren't able to talk about and i'm not even sure if you're really i can't tell if you're not aware or if i'm reading too much into it or you're not saying something does that make sense Because, like, so far it sounds like an awesome relationship, which in a lot of ways, it clearly is. Yeah, I think maybe the thing you're missing is, yeah, most of the time we function well together.

And we live and inhabit our space as well. But when we clash, it's, like, a huge problem. and like we probably avoid talking about long-term compatibility because we're scared of the idea that like we could not. Like it's possible we're not compatible in the long term. And then when these clashes happen, there's like fallout for days. What does fallout look like? Like not sleeping in the same bed. Sometimes I like go to my mom's house.

What are the conversations? Sorry, go ahead. No, yeah, what's the conversation about? What are the conversations about not being compatible look like? Well, like the most recent thing I recollect is I don't even know how we. I said something like my memory is hazy, so I'll do my best to recreate this, but I said something like I don't know, it just annoys me when you treat me like that, and then whatever.

And then he's like, well, do you really want me to come up with something about why I think I do that? And I'm like, yeah, I do. And he said, well, I just think you're an annoying person. And like, for someone who tries so hard to foster their image to the world, I think I try much harder than Evan probably does. like was like wrecked my presumptions about our relationship. And it's like really that shouldn't matter, I think. Like that comment. What shouldn't matter?

That he thinks I'm annoying. Why shouldn't that matter? I'm confused. Like I think I would try to justify and say like if anybody else said this, I wouldn't care. But yeah, it matters because. Yeah, Evan's kind of my person. Alex, I get the sense that you... Yeah, you're very protective, him.

It's strange. I think sometimes you place his opinion above your own. But that does sound incredibly hurtful because it sounds like he's making a judgment about you as a person. Yeah. I've heard that feedback from some friends as well. What feedback? That they think.

I like lower my view on the totem pole in our relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Now help me understand how we get to the, him saying you're an annoying person. Um, okay. I actually have no idea what actually happened before that. But I can give like a general gist of like something that would happen. Um, would be like, uh, so like,

something happens. Evan is like quick to anger and kind of like snaps. Um, and then I either like shut down or I'm like, let's brawl, bro. Like, let's do this. Um, and so yeah, then I probably was like, why are you even treating me like this? Like, treating me like trash. Like, this is not nice. I don't like being treated like that and then like you know then it all comes tumbling out and then he probably legitimate i don't know if he knows or knows i know it's something he works on that okay like quickness to anger um but um yeah and then he'll like produce something in response that he probably really thinks and i'm not ready to hear it.

Okay. I just want to point out so like, you know, you do this thing where you'll point out a flaw he has. Like he's quick to anger. And then you follow it up with, I know it's something he's working on. So I think that's what people are presenting is like or detecting. Like that's what I detect is like a sense of protection. Because whenever you kind of point out, you also, it's like you're, it's, you kind of mentioned that you're concerned about image.

And I wonder if you're protecting his image too by sort of. pointing out, you know, it's weird. Like I just, I think it's reflexive in your mind that anytime you kind of have a negative, like you have to balance it with a positive. Yeah. Yeah, called out. And I appreciate you telling me this. Yeah.

I think I do this. Obviously, it's a coping mechanism. Sure. And I think in the home I grew up in, that was like the only thing I could do to like, convince myself I was okay. Yeah. So here's the concern that I have around that. So I think that you guys have a lot of stuff under the surface.

And as long as your mind, when your mind sees a negative and it puts up a positive, it removes the need to actually have any discussion because on balance, everything's okay. And then things kind of get propagated. And then I think you wind up kind of where you are. And I'm not saying that you guys are in the situation because of you alone. It's a group, you know, you guys are this team game. And so I'm just, I'm noticing that there's like a certain amount of maybe this is what your friends sort of say about putting yourself lower on the totem pole. I don't know if it's like, sure, you can call it a self-esteem thing.

But I think just in a way you've learned how to see positive, like to see the silver lining of a cloud because otherwise life would be bleak. Yeah. Damn, that hits home. Yeah. And I think the challenge here is that like sometimes life is weak. Right? And we have to acknowledge or it's my experience that really the way that we fix problems is like, you know, if my sink pipe is busted and there's water going everywhere. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, at least I don't have to mop because like the water's cleaning the floor.

you know like that's it's adaptive absolutely i don't blame you for doing it because i think it's it's like really a survival mechanism and at the same time sometimes it can allow problems to propagate and what i'm hearing from you is that problems have propagated i still don't know what but it seems like you guys are kind of getting to this place where you're thinking about long-term compatibility which i don't even know what that means like what does that mean like why would you guys not be long-term compatible what what are the ways in which you guys are different, that means that you guys may not be together. How are you feeling, by the way? Am I being rough on you? Yeah, I'm not feeling good, but that's okay. So let's think about that. Hold on. In what

ways are you not feeling? Because I'm sorry to make you feel that way, but let's explore that. Are you okay with that? Or you want to, what are you feeling? Okay. I'm feeling like bad about the problems I've created. Okay. unable to do anything about them. Okay. Okay. Alexa, can you listen to me? Yeah. Are you able to?

Yeah. So I want to point out something that you said earlier, okay? I don't think things are as bad as you think they are, and I'd like to help you try to understand how. Can you run with me for a little bit? Okay. Yeah. You said earlier that when he asks you, when he mentions to you, that the kettle

makes him he doesn't like the sound of the kettle do you remember what you said to me about how that makes you feel uh yeah what did you say about what uh that I'm gonna ruin the day

is that how you're feeling right now yeah same thing right so here's the thing it's like it's like a mode that's activated this is the it's fucking Alexis fault right it's the same thing and the thing is

just as it's illogical then it's it doesn't mean it's false but that feeling arises it's the same thing you're like oh now I see how much I've messed up our relationship dude you haven't messed up your relationship really like I honestly believe that I think that something somewhere

along the way you've got some kind of programming that when someone expresses anything vaguely like a criticism because I think this is the other weird thing. Now, I got to be careful about this because I don't think this is your fault, but I think it's something you can change. I think sometimes Evan is actually looking for validation from you. And what you try to do is make his life better when really all he wants you to do is sit

and listen. Right? So he doesn't actually want you to change, like he doesn't want you to change because he recognizes that it's absurd that you should turn off the kettle because he finds it annoying. Yeah. What he actually wants from you is not for you to fixes problems, but a shoulder to cry on, kind of. But something is happening where like when I point out, you know, when I start to criticize the nature of your relationship, which is I think what we're here for. Yeah. Right.

And then this thing arises and then like kind of takes over. And then you're like, oh, fuck, I fucked it up. It's all my fault. And there's nothing I can do to fix it. Which is, whereas honestly, I believe the exact opposite. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think you're right. And I think, like, this response isn't helping me as a person get what I want in my life, what I, like, deserve.

Okay. And I'd like to not do that. Okay. Especially in my relationship with Evan. Okay. Do you blame yourself for having this response? That sounds gnarly. No, this will just sound gnarly, but I blame my family.

Good. That's the right people to be. blame. Because here's the concern that I had, because remember, your response is to blame yourself, right? Yes. That's the response. My actions are going to make us have a bad day.

And so then when I ask you, so here's the tricky thing, right? Like, as I point out this response to you, that same complex could arise again and say, oh, it's my fault for having this complex in the first place, which would just be the complex. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. I, yeah. It's Alexis fault complex. It's like, it's Alexis fault.

Exe. Let's open up that program. And so then when I ask you, is it Alexis fault that you keep on opening up this EXE, this fucking malware? And you're like, actually, it's my parents' fault, which means that that's not the program. Which I agree. Right. So I think that this is something that you learn to do as an adaptation. That by taking all the blame onto yourself, you absolve other people of blame.

and if you absolve other people of blame, then that allows you to stay in some kinds of relationships. Yeah, or at least like uphold a worldview that I think is important. Yeah. Oh, beautifully said. Right? Yeah. Okay. How are you feeling now?

Feeling good. Yeah, weird, huh? Yeah, no, I feel a lot better. Thank you. Yeah, so what happened there? Let's try to understand that for a second. Um, it came up. Yeah.

And how did we make it? Probably some fairy dust. I don't know. Yes. I like stopped taking responsibility for other people's actions. But how did you do that just now? Because I made you feel like shit there for a second. Ooh. How did I do that?

Okay. Because that's an important skill, yo. Yeah, that is. That's one I should retain. Yeah. What did I do? Well, I realize like everything shitty in my life isn't always my fault. But that's what you were thinking, right?

How did you realize that? How did I realize that? Because you think it's your fault. And then somehow today, just now you were able to realize it. And I think basically the main thing is pointing it out to you. So if you see that there's like malware on your computer and you like, you know, open up your processes and you see it's there, then you can like end task that shit. So like just try to catch this and recognize Alexa that at some points you got you're going to be interacting. And then it's Alexa's fucking fault gets called up.

Yeah. And then what's going to happen is that controls you. And when that controls you, you turn off the stove. Right? Yeah. Because that's what, Alexis, forget that I want to make tea.

How dare I inconvenience him with sound? And then he gets infuriated because he's like, that's fucking insane. Like, your tea is more important than my inconvenience. Yeah. And I mean, I don't think anyone here is an asshole.

It's just like genuinely like, this is what happens when patterns in our mind are operating without our knowledge. Yeah. So just try to catch it and notice it that sometimes. if people say things to you that may seem critical, it can pop up. Yeah. I think perhaps why I do this so much also is like I get a lot of validation from doing it. Like in academics, especially in academics when you say like, I take full responsibility

for answering this really like shitty test question wrong. And I'm going to be the one student who realizes like I should have studied more. And then people like you. Yeah, that's five head level shit. So here's the other thing, right? So like you're not broken. Like this is adaptive, especially in academia. Beating yourself up is how you, it sounds like you're starting a graduate program.

It's the reason that you're starting a graduate program. If you didn't beat yourself up in undergrad, you never would have gotten into grad school. Yeah. So that's a very, very insightful connection there, Alexa. Okay, so let me just ask you one last question and let's get, I, I, I, imagine Evan is getting nervous and hopefully he's not watching. No, I don't think he will be. Nervous or watching?

Oh, I'm sure he's not watching. Okay. So in what ways are you guys not compatible? Why are you concerned about your future? Okay. I'm going to come up with some good shit here. Okay. I worry that, like, my main concern would be like, if we ever have children,

I worry that we're not going to have a way to solve our problems and that our like children will be subjected to a turbulent home life. Okay, so you're concerned about your lack of conflict resolution? Yes. Okay. It's a good concern. I too am worried about your lack of conflict resolution. Good news is y'all are 22 and this is when you guys learned this shit. People aren't good at conflict resolution at the age of 22.

I don't know if you realize that or not. It's like, but we could be. You can start the process. Okay. Other concerns that you have? Yeah, I guess my main concern about how differently the way our lives look day to day is that I want a partner to be present with me, like, when I get home. And, yeah. Okay.

When I get home from school, I don't want to feel like a burden. for fucking being home. Okay. And so then let me ask you something. Do you feel like a... Does Evan make you feel like a burden? Or do you feel like a burden when you come home? Sometimes I do because he's still sleeping.

And then like, if I want to spend time with him, I would have to wake him up. And he hates waking up. Okay. Yeah. What about other times? What about when he's gaming and you come home? Um, I would like...

We've talked. a little bit about this, but I would like to know, like to know, like a plan for when he thinks he'll be done. So I don't sit around, like a sad housewife waiting for my husband to get done with the work or whatever. Okay. So you know what I didn't hear there, Alexa? How do you feel right now? Mo bien. Okay. Really? You feel okay? Yeah. Yeah, I feel fine. Because, because this is the first time that I've heard you kind of call him out and not protect him. Yeah.

Right? So earlier you were saying, I recognize that I can't always be the priority in his life. And that when I come home, finishing the game of League of Legends is more important than saying hello to me and being warmly greeted. Because he moved across country with me to pursue graduate school. That's what you said at the beginning. And now you're saying, eh, actually. Yay, we're going to torpedo your relationship for a 30 minutes. Don't worry about it.

But do you see that difference? Yeah, yeah. No, I do. Yes. And I didn't know I was doing it when I said it. Yeah. So, but that's okay. Like, it's okay that you're doing it, right?

Because it serves a purpose. It keeps your relationship harmonious, which I think has been very important for both of you. Yes. Doesn't fix it, but keeps it harmonious. Okay. That makes sense to me. Are you, what do you think about, like, so it sounds like you're in grad school. Do you feel like you're growing as a person?

Um, I'll start in the fall. I haven't actually started yet. Um, am I growing as a person? I think yes, because I'm going through a lot of hard things that like for the first time I'm having to deal with as like an adult and not like somebody living under my, uh, families domain. Cool. Uh, yeah. Do you feel like Evan is growing as a person? Um, um, um. I think, I would say not as much as he'd like to, but probably I should say no. Right. So even there, in that construction, you feeling okay? Yeah. Yeah. You're feeling. Yeah, I'm anxious, but that's okay.

Okay. So, so even then you did it again where you kind of said, you started your answer with what you said. something like he thinks not as much as he wants to and then you said like because you're once again adopting his frame of mind like I'm asking you what you think and you said he's probably not growing as much as he wants to

yeah what are you feeling now something's happening Alexa what's happening well it's just like a really messed up way to think that's not going to help me and I feel like bummed that I'm a person who is like trying so much to appease

their partner's frame of mine, even though he's not even asking me to do that. Yep. And in fact, when you do that, he actually gets frustrated. Yeah, he gets angry. And like, rightfully so, it would be really annoying. Like, yeah. He's like, yeah, he like chose me because I can do my own thing. Okay. So now what I'm going to, any questions for me? No. How are you holding up? Are we too harsh on you? No, it's okay. This is good. This is where the growth happens.

It's not fun, is it? that's that's the real bitch i'll have a diet coke after this it'll be fine good for you consider having a regular one yeah um okay so you want to go ahead and grab evan yeah okay i want you to just take like i want you guys to just have take like come back in like 60 to 90 seconds okay just just recollect your thoughts okay okay all right we'll be back in 60 to 90 seconds okay all right we'll be back in 60 to 90 seconds. Okay. I had something really important.

I wanted to think about it, but I just lost it. Oh, yeah. Here's what it is. We're in. So she doesn't. Okay. Hello? I don't know.

We're here. Okay. Okay. Oh, my God. Sorry. All right. So. All right. So first, thank you guys so much for coming on.

I'm going to actually start by asking each of you to summarize what you took away from our individual conversations and share that with the other person and like sort of what you feel is important for them to know. Okay. So we're going to start with your representations of our individual conversations. The next thing that I'm going to ask, so if you're sharing, if you're recapping the conversation, what I want then the listener to do is to repeat back what they heard as opposed to respond. So just make sure that you guys are on the same page. Okay, so who wants to go first? I'll go first. Okay. We talked about how, the way in which I blame.

myself is detrimental to us communicating in our relationship and doesn't really allow us to talk about all of our problems when I like scapegoat myself. I think I use that as a way to like not address our issues because I'm like scared of actually addressing them. Yeah. So what I heard is in like those times when I'm like from my perspective when I'm trying to yeah start that conversation and bring up that feeling your like self-critical like overly harsh on yourself part comes out and you start to think only about like the things you were doing wrong yeah I think like as a way to like absolve you because I think it's important to in my mind that I always view you in some stagnant way that like makes me feel comfortable.

Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Hold on. So first of all, Alexa, we talked about more than you blaming yourself, which is the message you're sending him. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. You summarize the conversation as I do something bad. But we talked about more than that. Are you with me or no? Yeah. So I'm going to ask Evan. Evan, repeat back what you heard and just listen to what he's saying.

Yeah, I heard that you blaming yourself is the cause of our breakdown in communication, which in and of itself is you blaming yourself for the breakdown and communication. Okay. So here we go. Fuck my family. Okay. So say more. Um, well, I think I like learned these adaptive, uh, behaviors through like the role I played as a mediator in my family. And those are not serving me well. So I would like to not do that and to like, I would like to think about a better way to think about myself in our relationship. And I think it would be helpful if you pointed out and I'll do my best to not escape out myself.

Okay, great. You want to repeat back? Yeah, so you, like, at a certain, at a time in your life felt like you had to be that mature, like mediator of conversation and that, like, you. you've, it's easier for you to blame yourself than like engage with our problems. Yeah. Okay. So now comes the next question, which is who is responsible for y'all's situation, Alexa? We both are.

And what is his fault? Um, ooh. Um. It's hard, isn't it? Um, yeah, I don't know. Okay, that's okay. Yeah. That's okay.

So I can also see you're starting to feel anxious again. That's okay. Okay, so we're going to get to that in a second. But I want you, Evan, to notice that, like, I think you accept some responsibility for your situation, yes? Yeah. And you also see how she blames herself for y'all's situation. Yep. And sometimes we talked about some of the things that you do wrong.

But even in this moment, she's having trouble catching those because of the way that she's been, the way she evolved in her family to be like a mediator and more mature and accept responsibility. She also mentioned that it's like very helpful in academia for her to do this thing. So it can be hard. Yeah. Right? So in a weird way, what you're going to have to do, is like think

like don't let her get away with that shit. Yeah, I like this. Right? So like here's the problem with a relationship is if she blames herself like both people have to have the same strategy. If I take all the responsibility for all the problems in my relationship

and my wife takes all the problems for responsibility in our relationship, that works out fine. If I share responsibility with her and she takes 100%, that's not going to work. Yeah. Okay. If I blame her 100% and she blames me 100% that's fine.

The problem is when I take 100% responsibility and she gives me 100% responsibility, that's what an abusive relationship looks like. And I don't think you guys are an abusive relationship. I'm saying like that's how they get that, right? Because it's like always one person's fault. And this whole thing with the water boiling thing is an example of like Evan doesn't actually blame you. So when you turn off the water, then he gets upset because, like, I don't want you to stop. Yes. Oh, that's a great example.

Yeah. Right. See, he gets it. I remember it now. Yeah. So, like, what pisses you off when she turns off the water kettle? It's like a, and I guess this almost transitions to what I'm saying, or what we talked about, which is that, like, that's not what I meant, what I say, like, I hate this. I hate the stove because it sucks.

Like, I didn't want you to take the blame there. You know, like, that wasn't me trying to put anything onto you. That was just me expressing my feeling that just arise. And, yeah, I think it goes, it circles around to, like, just being understood and, like, feeling like what I am, like, that you're on the same page as me. And that, like, it's, yeah. Okay. Okay. Any thoughts before we're going to let Evan go then?

Any responses or thoughts, Alexa? Yeah, I guess I'm just like seeing how these like self-blaming behaviors are making it harder for you to feel heard in our relationship when that's not my intention at all. So this is very helpful to hear. Okay. Do you feel heard, Evan? When she said that? Yes. Okay.

Right? Like, so do you feel like she gets it? Yes. Okay. Great. There was, and while she was saying it, I got it in a way, in a new way that I have, like I've circle around this thing before, but the way you put it actually like, yeah, click something in my brain as well, which is that like my understanding thing

connects to your, like, self-blaming thing. Like this is, that's the, those two forces combined, which is like my thing and your thing. Yeah, to fester. Yeah. Yeah. That's how See, it's both the y'all's fucking fault Yeah

Good message Okay, so Evan, you want to You want to share recap? Yeah, so We as mentioned talked about I guess whether or not

I feel understood by you and like what that like yeah what that brings up with me and like why I do that and a lot of

we talked a lot about my feeling of independence and like lost opportunity throughout time being in this relationship and that yeah I have some I identify with like

the things we said when we started this relationship still and I feel like a responsibility to do that what things be so like like big picture like you know we big picture like yeah yeah um and that I don't want to like misstep but I also need to change and it's hard for me to do that do both of those things in the like context of our relationship or just in the context of your life? Both. I don't know sure. Explain what you mean, Evan, by misstep and change.

What's the sentence I used to mean? I don't remember. Okay, so I'm sorry, I'm not following my own rules. So, Alexa, what did you hear from Evan? Okay, what I heard is that I think at times you do not feel understood by me and that you are finding it hard to change and grow in some way and that you want to change and grow but you also want to like honor the like foundings like the foundation of our relationship yeah i think yeah i think that's what i heard i agree with that okay i like

honor the foundations of the relationship. That sounds. Yeah, it's a house. We started digging a hole. Okay. So, Evan, are there other things that you want to share or that you took away from our conversation? Nothing comes to mind. Okay. I'm blanking right now.

Yep. So I think I'm going to add a couple of things. So the first thing is that, you know, Evan, you talked to a, about feeling stagnant, right? And what did you, can you share a little bit with Alexa about how you feel about that? Sure, I guess that like, yeah, I've seen people do a lot of things and I often compare like our relationship to what I could have done in five years.

Okay. almost. And like, that I know that that's not, that's not the case and that I can change in this relationship, but that it, yeah, I, there's some like part of me that it feels like safe. Being 18-year-old us who is just like in our parents' basements, you know, it's very, there's very, like, comforting feeling that, like, recreating that, yeah, recreating that. Yeah, recreating that is, like, satisfying, but the other side of that coin is, uh, is like gnawing away at, like, always staying on a path of, uh, like, certainty rather than kind of seeing, like, venturing out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did you

hear, Alexa? I heard that over time you've seen other people you're close to in your life change and that you haven't seen that change in yourself and you wonder if like our relationship is somehow connected to that. And then you like, okay, you want to like see yourself in a different way. than how you saw yourself when you were 18 and we started dating. And that, I think what I hear is that you want room in the relationship to grow, to like allow you the personal bandwidth, I guess, to do that, to like achieve new personal things and explore new things. But at times you feel like you can't because of the context of our relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess the one caveat I would add to that is that like I don't know what I need to you know like whatever space in a relationship means I don't I guess I need some and it is I like to use the word wonder because it is a lot of wonder and like hypothesizing over like oh what is this the thing like should I sacrifice this relationship is that what will make me change right yeah um I think you got the idea. Okay. How does it feel to hear the phrase, is sacrificing the relationship what I need to change? What do you think about that, Alexa? I think it's a legitimate wonder, right? Like, we have made a long-term commitment to each other.

Whoops. And, like, I've been on an easy path, I think, in life, where I went to school and then I graduated, and then I got into this grad program. And it's been easy for me to see development, but for you, it hasn't been that laid out. And the only, like, consistent thing has been our relationship. So you've kind of had to use our, like, relationship as a landmark. I think the question is, like, in the absence of those, like, landmarks in our relationship, what would you do or what could you have done?

Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. Can I share a couple of additional things? Please. So, Evan, what do you think about how much? you game? It goes in waves and I feel like I have some self-awareness over it. But when it does come, I do not like how much it is. Or I do recognize the kind of escapism that it offers me.

Okay. Okay. So we're going to talk for a second about gaming. So I think sometimes Alexa picks up guilt from you about your feelings of gaming. And she also feels frustrated that sometimes it feels like, bizarrely, I think you guys actually agree here. So at one point we'd sort of, you'd said something about, you know,

feeling stagnant or something. And then she responds by like invalidating what you say, by pointing to things about what you guys like say, like, you know, when you guys have done stuff. together. Yeah. Yeah.

And so the funny thing is that she actually kind of feels the same way because she sort of feels like sometimes with gaming, she's like a housewife kind of twiddling her thumbs. Like she'll be out doing stuff and then she'll kind of come home and you'll be like gaming and then she'll be like, okay, what am else? Like so sometimes it's sort of like she's not sure when she's playing a single player game and when she's playing a co-op game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm literally just playing a game with different random people online instead of

Right. So I think she expressed some frustration around that, which it took some work for her to even be able to say that she was kind of frustrated with that. So strong work, Alexa. But I think you guys really have to look at the gaming because I think it is, I think like a loss of potential. I've certainly seen relationships that fall apart, followed by immense growth on the part of a gamer. But it's not because the relationship fell apart. It's usually. honestly the situation is girl dumps guy guys like oh shit i have to get my act together and then like cuts back on his gaming okay yes and and so i think if there's any sort of loss of potential it's not like evan how many how many hours do you play on on average per week um since we moved i will probably play 15 to 20 i think before that yeah like during early covid i could easily log 40 to 50. Okay. And what about like one year ago?

Oh, I mean, last summer was not a good summer necessarily, and that was probably your 60 or 70. Yep. That's what, I mean, I think everyone watching Twitch was aware of that. Yes. You know, I think we can tell. So I'm glad by people. Yeah.

So, I mean, that's us. We recognize ourselves. So I think the other thing in terms of your. stagnation and your lack of growth, like, if you're pounding out 60 hours a year ago, like, that's why you're not growing. It's not because you've been dating the same chick for four years. Yeah. Right? Like, to be blunt. And, and, you know, so I think that's something that you guys are going to have to work on, especially because, you know, Evan, you do have, it sounds like sometimes you get angry very easily, which is also common for people who play a lot

of legal legends and Dota and games in general. C.S. Go take a call. whatever you want. The one other thing that I want to point out, so I think you guys really have to look at that. And Evan, what you really need to do is think about what ways do you want your life to change. And then what you need to do, Alexa, when he tells you his want, he wants his life to change in a particular way, you can't make it your fault. Okay. His life is the way. That's the worst thing that you can do. And here's the other thing that connection, so I'm glad you guys are able to see that like some of your problems are not your fault or her fault

it's what you guys combined together. So earlier we were talking about Evan being the judge and how he's like basically like judges you right and then that makes you feel bad so that also you guys can go back and watch the pod. But I think the other interesting thing is that like you like to be

the judge and then she also likes to be the accused right? That's very well put. Yeah. And so it's like like y'all are both falling into to that pattern because both of you feel comfortable with it. So she likes to be the accused because she's the mediator. She, you know, it's adaptive in an academic setting.

You've got to figure out where that judgeness comes from. And and so you kind of just notice that these patterns that you guys have are like something that you guys create together. But I really, I mean, yeah. So, so thoughts. Any questions about that? maybe a question of like so I yeah set um I guess like set standards for what that standard I don't know get an idea of what I want moving forward and realistically what that looks like sometimes I worry about like involving her too much in that goal so if it is like stop

like game less like only only game on Friday Saturday is on there or something and the rest the time is like did I get a work days or something um like I worry of like involving her in that and having putting a responsibility on her of holding me accountable yep that's your independence streak you see it you want to do it on your own yes right so just because so yes I should ask her for help well that's something you've got to sort through so maybe I should just start blaming you when you came outside of Friday, Saturday, Saturday, so that's that. So we're going to talk about things that are going to torpedo your relationship in a second. But Evan, I get what you're saying because I think you're someone who much like antidepressants wants to learn how to do it on your own.

Right. So I'm not saying that there's a right answer or a wrong answer there. But like, I think that it may be possible to recruit her in some ways. But I think if you use her as an accountability tool, it's going to piss both of you off. She can't make you accountable. I think what she can do, and this is something you've got to work on, Alexa, is recognize that when he comes to you with a problem, he's not looking for you to fix it. He's actually just looking for you to listen.

And this is bizarre because this is like really a gender reversal in traditional heteronormative relationships. We're proud of that. We're very proud of that. Yeah. So usually it's the woman who will express some frustration. And then the man is like, how do I fix it? and then it's like she doesn't want you to fix it she just wants you to listen so Alexa I think sometimes when Evan is like I don't know what to do in our relationship and then you're like what

can I do to make it better that's not what he wants for me okay what question would be more productive to ask or what what's a better response what feels like it's unproductive in our relationship or why do you feel like you're stagnant just try to understand don't try to fix don't try to help, try to understand first and foremost. Okay. Tell me more, period. Tell me more. Oh, yeah.

Okay. And then what you can do is you can employ, I think in general, instead of sitting in silence with each other while y'all are eating your food, try doing. So recognize that the emotions are going to come up and then try doing what we did today, which is just repeat back what the other person said. Don't respond to it. Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Okay. And then you guys are going to get on the same page. Okay. It's really hard to do, by the way. Okay. It's easy to do here with a referee, but like when y'all are pissed off and when you're, it's alexus fault. EXE is active, then it's hard to do.

But you guys have to pull yourselves out and really try to practice. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Last thing that I'll say is that, so the question is, should we break up? And my answer is maybe. So here's what I'll say. I think you guys are not the people that you were five years ago.

And this relationship is not what it was five years ago. So the question, should you guys, can you continue this relationship? Absolutely not. The question is, can the two of you grow as individuals and evolve your relationship into what it needs to be now? Which is not what it was five years ago. That whatever needed was safety and support and someone else. to take the blame when he felt like things were his fault because he lacked confidence and all this kind of shit. Right? I'm just hypothesizing there. You guys can. Right? But now what

what he needed five years ago, Alexa, is different from what he needs from you now. Which is like the exact thing that made your relationship so valuable is now the very thing that's keeping it from growing. Yeah. And so I think both of you guys need to grow as people, as individuals. And then see if you guys can like continue to evolve. With generally speaking, I'm hopeful. Right. But like that you all both unfortunately do have to acknowledge that like, you know, people who get together when they're 17 don't stay together for their entire life all the time.

And I think the ones who do it are the ones who recognize that like you guys are starting a new relationship now with each other. That each of you is evolving and changing. And if you guys can support each other and doing that at some point, it sounds to me like there's enough good stuff there that. it's like, you know, worth giving it a shot. But y'all aren't going to be 17-year-olds for the rest of your life. So you can't preserve that relationship. And in fact, it's trying to preserve that relationship where a lot of like sadness and suffering comes from. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I really like a lot of what you said, especially, yeah, the like, we needed something then and we need something now. And we're, yeah, not the same people. and I like the idea of like it's a new relationship. Yeah. It's a new type of relationship.

Yeah. And in each new stage, right? Yep. At all times. Yeah. Yeah. So like for another good example of what is a new relationship is like if you guys have kids one day, then you're just not the same people you were after you have kids.

Your relationship completely changes, right? So that's an example of a common evolution in relationships that sometimes end up. fracturing relationships, right? Which is okay. Okay. Last thoughts or questions? Okay. Like, how do I stop myself from this like self-blaming dialogue? Like, are there any good questions I can ask myself when Evan says, like, points it out? So what I would say first and foremost is you have to notice it. So you can even go back and watch the Vod and see. what happened and try to remember what happened in your mind because you did shut it off. It's really just noticing because when when that programming activates, you think it's fat.

You don't realize that it is a program in your mind that's running. And so just recognizing that, oh, shit, my mind is going to do its thing again. Like think about your mind like kind of like a, you know, like a bad leg that sometimes gives out. And it's like it's not your fault. It's just like the leg sometimes poops out. It's like it's just doing its thing again. So your mind is going to do its thing and there may be some triggers like criticism or feeling like or actually bizarrely yours may not be triggered by criticism of you. It may be triggered by pain on the side of Evan.

Right? Actually, that's what the trigger is. That's what's weird. It's like when Evan expresses frustration about something in his life, you're like, how can I make this my fault and take the pain away from you, Evan? And then when you do that, like, you've got to notice when she does it and try to point it out and be like, hey, are you taking my pain away? Just ask her. Yeah. And then you guys figure it out.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That's given a lot of words to a lot of... Big feelings. Feelings that are like acted out over time. That's what we do here.

Okay. So last question is, do you all want to learn how to meditate? Let's do it. Yes. Okay. So this is, I think this is going to be fun. So we're going to do oam chanting. We haven't done it in a little while.

But I think ome chanting is especially good. If you guys want to be partners. Oh, good. Then, because chanting is. You still do. It's not a dwarfs dream chat. So if you guys, so I think ome chanting is actually good to, like,

it's actually better when you do it with other people. So what I want you guys, so we're going to do it together. Okay. Okay. So I want y'all to sit up straight. Okay. So I'm going to demonstrate. So Ome is composed of three syllables. Ah, ooh, and and then I understand that sometimes on Discord, it cuts out. So let me actually try to,

let me know if it cuts out, okay? Because I think Discord's voice activation algorithm, like, chops it. It happens okay on stream. But so what I'm going to do, so I'm going to start with ah, ooh, that you guys hear that? You aren't enough parts of the same thing. A, ooh, Mm. Perfect. Right?

So you go from a fully open mouth, to a fully closed mouth. Okay. Okay. Okay. So one or two things to remember about chanting. One is chanting is not about sound. It's about vibration.

So you don't want to focus on what you hear. You want to focus on what you feel. Okay? People feel anxious when they start to chant because, let's be honest, it's fucking weird. And then the goal, though, is that, like, notice that anxiety within you, and then, like, start focusing on the vibration. And as you chant, the anxiety will just, like, fade away, which is also useful.

Okay, so I'm going to demonstrate with three breaths, and then we're going to do three breaths together. I'll demonstrate with two. I'll say, and then we'll do three together. Okay. So, do that clip out? Entirely. Oh, yeah. Okay, so hold on one second, okay?

Let me just fix this. Let me move to push to talk and then hopefully this. All right, so I'm going to try one more time with push to talk. No, we don't hear you. Oh, yeah, I need to try one more time with push to talk. That is the key word. One more time. Do you guys hear at that time?

Yeah. Okay, great. Is that one? That's one. Okay, okay. It's all one breath. So we're going to do three breaths now, okay? in succession with eyes closed.

Okay. All right. So sit up straight. You two, Twitch at, big deep breath. Ah. Big deep breath. Oh. Again, deep breath in.

Deep breath in. Last one. Make it count. Now we're just going to sit about 30 to 60 seconds. Go ahead and come on back. Go ahead and come on back. I forgot that I should talk. How do you feel?

very peaceful very yeah my mind is very at ease cool so maybe that'll help you guys so it's a good practice that y'all can do together did you guys harmonize or resonate with each other we couldn't really hear you but i don't know i i while we were chanting i definitely felt a sense of like yeah for sure like anxiety at the beginning but once we were in it. I was losing track of my voice versus her voice versus coming through my earbud voice. Great. That's the whole point.

Yeah. So you want to lose track of the individual. Cool. Well, thank you guys very much for coming on. Any last thoughts or questions before we wrap up? No, I would just like to say thank you. No, what therapist I've seen for the past seven years has been as insightful and blunt with me as you have and I really appreciate that.

Just a reminder, this isn't therapy though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. It's just a nice friendly conversation. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, yeah, it's strange because oftentimes with my actual therapy patients, I will not be as insightful or as blunt because therapy is a longer process. And, you know, I think we just have two hours with y'all, so I've got to make you count. Well, thank you.

I think you did. So we very much appreciate it. Yeah, of course, man. So we're rooting for you. Twitch chat is rooting for you. But doesn't mean that you have to stay together. But I think we're all in your corner. And so good luck. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you guys very much for coming on and sharing so much because I think this really helps everyone. Yeah, strong work. Have a good day. You too. You too. Thanks.