HealthyGamerGG - I Don't Want to Have a Goal

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

Dr. K talks about being at peace, loss aversion, the fear of "what if", and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Could bad things happen if you make a choice and commit to something? Yes. Bad things can happen. But you don't have to be afraid of them. Hello? Hello. Welcome, friend. Hello.

It's nice to be here. It's nice to have you. Can you see and hear me all right? I can, but you are not on stream. Just so well. Okay. I may make a mistake at some point, but, you know, the goal is not to, you know, show your face. So, welcome.

I feel like I can communicate with my face, too. That's why I put my camera. That's why I appreciate it. Yeah, I feel like I'm going to say a lot more with my face, to be honest. Okay. So today we're talking a little bit about who do you want to be and what's holding you back. Is that right? Yeah.

So I'm actually a little surprised they picked me because I kind of didn't directly answer it. I kind of answered it by saying, it's more like I, I don't really want to be anything. And the reason being is that I feel like if I choose to be something in particular, I'm going to be giving up something that might also be genuinely what I want. Okay. That sounds like a, I can totally understand why they picked you, right? So, and first, can we start with what you go by, my friend? My name is Johnny.

Okay. So Johnny, tell me a little bit more about that. So what's your, so it sounds like you're kind of feeling. a little stuck. I wouldn't use the word stuck because I've actually spent a lot of time with this. Okay. And I'm going to actually give you some background.

So since 2006, 2007, I have on my own free time studied some Eastern spirituality stuff. So it's been almost 15 years for me. Wow. So I think this might be interesting for us to talk about. Sure.

And part of it, well, part of it actually came even before the spiritual. stuff, but I was always worried if I became something, well, what am I letting go of? And the tricky thing is, well, I don't even know what I am in the first place. So, like, aren't I just changing identities and aren't identities constantly changing? So, like, why pick something if I can always just keep changing, like, adapt to the moment? Okay. So, uh, that's a good question. Do you have an answer?

So my answer is kind of, it's hard for me to pick something to go towards, but if a situation arises where a certain role is better, I feel like I can adopt a certain role socially because it'll work better, work out better in the way I want it. Okay. So that's sort of how picking a certain identity helps. Okay. But I get in this place where I'm like, I don't. know how to talk about it because I don't really want to be the identity, but I can adopt it

for the sake of like social stuff. I'm with you. So let me make sure I understand. Okay. So the first thing is that I'm sort of noticing that you can't, you don't know what identity to adopt sometimes or you don't know who you want to be, let's say, because if you become something, you could be missing out on something else. Yeah. Right? That's first issue. Second thing is that if you're presented with a particular option, you can adopt that identity,

but it's not really necessarily who you are. You're almost like playing a role. Yeah, like right now I'm giving you my more stream, more fun role instead of being kind of neutral, which is kind of how I was right before the stream. Okay. And so first question, Johnny, is this a problem in some way? I don't know if it's a problem, but it seems like not a problem to me, but like everyone around me kind of think is a problem. Like, you know, people are very adamant that I have goals.

But it's not that I don't dislike goals, but my goals tend to happen when there's a problem in front of me. If there's nothing wrong, I almost have like zero goals. And I just kind of go with things. So that sounds pretty chill. Yeah, so is this, I guess, I guess I kind of want to ask, because I did kind of get into spirituality in a not so good way. Okay.

So sometimes I'm hesitant to explain or I guess kind of be what I am because I kind of got into spirituality to numb myself unintentionally. Okay. Well, right now I'm not anymore. Like, I don't know. You can see in my face. I'm not completely like, blah. Can you help me understand what you mean by you got into spirituality to numb yourself?

Yeah, basically I got, I started meditating to stop feeling things. Okay, did that work? Actually, it did for like three years. Okay, and then what happened? Life sucked. Life sucked? It was just, it was boring, basically. Okay.

I didn't care about anything. You were numb and you didn't care, and then what happened? I kind of got a bit suicidal because I didn't care and I guess I started caring again because I met some pretty good people I guess after that the weirdest thing

instead of meditating to numb my feelings I notice I can meditate to actually feel more okay good and then what happened And it's... Honestly, a lot of things have happened. The suicide part, it comes and goes, actually. But it's not very frequent anymore.

And I've really kind of just been exploring, like, mostly identity and goals and what's good, what's right and wrong. And it's just, I don't know. I'm at the point where none of this actually makes sense anymore. Sure. It can make sense. When I think about it. But like, just because it, when I think about it and if I try to make sense of it, sure. But if I don't, it's like they never existed at all.

Like, there was never a problem or an issue. I think I'm sort of with you, Johnny. So a couple of things. The first thing is that, you know, if you are feeling suicidal or you're in danger or anything, I don't know if you've ever been in clinical treatment before, but that's worth looking into. I was a long time ago. I'm not at that point anymore. Okay.

So just to, you know, just to share that because I think the discussion will be incomplete. We don't have to focus on that today. But, you know, since we're not going to be focusing on that, I just wanted to mention it. So here's the thing. Let me ask you a couple questions, Johnny. First is, would you say that you're at peace? I think we need to define peace first because are you talking about feeling? Like, does it feel peaceful or is, okay, how would you define peace?

because I'm going to say no. So anytime I ask that question and someone asks, how do you define peace? I'm just going to assume no. So like, I know it's kind of weird. Maybe that's a little bit arrogant. But I think that peace is like sort of a subjective experience of contentment and tranquility.

And oftentimes when someone asks me in a logical way, like where are the boundaries of peace? the answer is sort of no. People who are at peace kind of know that they're at peace. What if I don't know them at peace? Because I don't really know what peace is. Okay. Okay.

So I'm making assumptions here, which is okay. Okay. So I just wanted to make sure because now we're going to get to where that lack of peace comes from. Okay. So you said if I become something, what am I losing out on? Right. What's wrong with losing out on something? I feel like becoming something makes me less adaptable.

What's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. I have a preference to adapt over being something very specific. Where does that preference come from? I don't know. I guess I just like exploring things. I kind of want to have everything instead of being hyper-focused on one thing. Yep.

Right? So why? Let me think if I can. ask this question in a different way. So you like exploring things, I know this is going to sound kind of weird, do you like exploring things out of like a positive feeling? And I'm not necessarily meaning emotion or a negative feeling.

Can I say both? Yes. Can you help me understand that? So this is something kind of recent, but actually it's hard for me to identify positive and negative emotion. It's not that I don't have them. It's more like the label positive and negative. I mostly just use, does it feel good or does it feel bad?

But one isn't more positive or more negative. They're just different. Okay. So I like, so I guess I enjoy both feelings that feel good and feelings that are discomfort because they're just feelings. Yep. Good. So I'll kind of ask again.

So like what's the harm in losing a, out on experiences? I don't know there's a harm. More of a, I feel like I'm giving way a part of my, like, freedom to choose if I be something specific. What's wrong with giving away a part of your freedom to choose? I just like having options. Why?

Honestly, if I didn't have options, I can adapt to whatever I'm being asked to do. And that's fine, too. So I have no doubt that you can adapt. You've shown us that you can adapt and you have adapted over and over and over again. What I'm asking is what is the origin of your preference for freedom over not freedom? I think it has to do with the way I grew up. Like, it had a lot of freedom to kind of just do whatever I wanted. So I did a lot of things.

Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, I was kind of just left to my own devices growing up. So I just did whatever I wanted as long as I did good in school. And what was that like for you? It was cool being able to do a lot of things, but the same time it was kind of isolating because I was just doing things to kind of pass time. Okay. So have you...

Okay, so let me toss something out, Johnny. Let me see if you're... So generally speaking, when I hear people say something like, if I become something, what am I missing out on? I kind of hear some amount of like loss aversion there. So like what I'm almost hearing is like if I had if I had to guess, and this is tricky because you're clearly you've done a lot of spiritual practice. So I see this is like you have so much spiritual resistance to some particular things

and you have so much spiritual growth that it doesn't quite affect you the way that it would like the average person. That's what makes this kind of tricky. So, like, your ability to tolerate particular fears or anxieties or negative things, your ability to accept those makes it sort of like they're not as, it's not as clear. But what I'm essentially hearing is that, you know, I'm almost hearing some amount of, like, safety, loss aversion, or fear. Does that resonate with you at all? A tiny bit.

If there's a loss aversion, I guess I just. I'm averse to losing free time because I like just being with myself a lot. So, but what makes it, why would you have to lose free time? I guess when I be something, I get kind of hyper-focused where I forget to slow down and relax sometimes. Is that a problem? Only if I get burnt out, but I don't, I'm not afraid of the burnout. It's more of a, when the burnout happens, it sucks. but I'm okay when it happens.

Okay. So generally speaking, Johnny, we avoid things when we're afraid of the consequences. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. So what I'm trying to figure out, what I'm getting from you is that there's some amount of avoidance, right? You're saying that if I become something, I lose out on something else. I become less adaptable, right? Yeah.

So what I'm hearing there is that you value adaptability? Absolutely. Why do you value adaptability? Where did you learn the value of adaptability? I was definitely my comfort zone because growing up, I had a lot of anxiety, so I had to learn to adapt to everything that kind of came at me. Okay, and so if you're not able to adapt, what does that mean for you? I'm probably going to freak out, although it doesn't really happen very much anymore.

So that's kind of interesting, right? Yeah. So what I'm sort of hearing is that if you become something, you lose adaptability. If you lose adaptability, then you're no longer able to protect yourself against freaking out. What do you think about that? Never really considered that. So that's pretty cool. But what do you think about it?

I think it's interesting, but I don't know if it's like, well, it's so new to me that I don't really have a response to it if I'm being honest. That's fair enough. That's great. So it's clear you're a contemplative person. So my point is that when I hear you talk, I'm getting some kind of fear or aversion. And it makes sense. Right. So like what I'm hearing is that adaptability is protective for you. And so sacrificing your adaptability means opening yourself up to not being able to adapt to crap that happens. Right? Because if you can't adapt, then like, then you're going to have to suffer. Like, where would you be if you couldn't adapt?

What would your life be like, Johnny? If I couldn't adapt, I feel like I'd just be at rock bottom. There we go. Right? So now we understand, like, okay, so making a choice and becoming something is in a weird, indirect way connected to hitting rock bottom. Do you see that? I'm starting to see the connection, but I'm not sure if I'm completely.

completely there. That's totally fine. So that's something for you to think about. Here's the other thing. Since you've spent a lot of time spiritually exploring stuff. So you know how you were saying earlier that when you adopt a particular identity, that's sort of like an act? Yeah. Who is the you that's underneath the act?

That's the weird thing. I have no idea. And I actually saw a guru to kind of talk about that a few months ago. But then she kind of hushed me and said, just kind of pay attention and watch it carefully. And I've kind of just stopped questioning it and just paying attention. And honestly, it just seems like nothing. Things don't make sense, but they're not making sense, make sense.

I don't know if that makes sense. It makes sense. So. Can you tell me anything about the you that's underneath the act? It's hard to describe it because I don't know if there's a thing, but I remember having this kind of experience where, well, I kind of talked to someone about this and was like, I could feel something that's not a feeling.

It's like I can feel and it feels deeply, but it's not related to feeling and emotion. And that thing feels very intimate. Mm-hmm. But I'm not sure if that's me. Or something else? It was just something that was kind of new. Yeah.

So I think you've got it right, Johnny. So when people in ancient India tried to understand the you underneath, they came up with one description. And that was netty netty, which means not this, not this. So the you underneath, what they discovered is, if you ask it, is it good? They'll say no.

Is it bad? They'll say no. Is it old? They'll say no. Is it young? They'll say no. Is it outside? No.

Is it inside? No. It's like a thing. I like your description that it's intimate, but it's formless. But it's real. Does that sort of make sense? Yeah, yeah. So now I've got a question for you.

You're afraid of adapting and becoming something. And then you won't be something else. So I've got a question, what is it that changes within you when you adapt? Is it the part on top or the part in the middle? Oh, it's the part on top. The middle thing is like, it doesn't give a damn to be honest. I can be an absolute monkey and it doesn't give a damn. Or it can be like an absolute saint, doesn't care.

So this is why like what I would ask you is then why does it matter? Right? So like you can become whatever you want to. But the truth of the matter is, I don't know how to say this, but you're only what you are. You can't be anything else. Yeah, so I guess the thing is, I don't like using outside and inside, because even that doesn't make sense anymore, but just for the sake of communication with words that it makes sense,

but on the outside, it's like if I become something, I feel like I'm giving away part of that freedom that I know on the inside where, like, I don't have to be that if I didn't want to. But, you know, I can still make the choice to be something. something. Yeah. So it definitely takes a while. So here's what I'd say. The problem or the conflict that you have is on the outside, has nothing to do with on the inside. There are layers between completely outside and completely inside. The completely inside part doesn't really care. And this is where, I don't know how to say this, but like essentially I think that your

problem is sort of false. And I know it's weird to say. I wouldn't say that unless we're, right? Because it's all the crap on the outside. It's all like mental faculties where you're, your loss averse in some way, because if you adapt, or, you know, so have you ever heard of the concept of a stem cell? I've heard the word, but I don't quite know what it is. So, you know, like, when, when we're single, so like, when a human being forms, the first thing that forms is an embryo, and that's an egg plus a sperm, and it's one cell, okay? The first thing that happens is, like, you're one cell with your 46 chromosomes.

You're not an eye cell, you're not a heart cell, you're not a stomach cell, you're not a neuron, you're not a skin cell. You're just one cell. And then that cell divides into two, and then that cell divides into four, those cells divide into four and eight and so on and so forth. Those things are called stem cells. And certain stem cells are called pluripotent stem cells, which means that this cell can become whatever it wants to. Then what happens is the cell differentiates. And the moment that it differentiates, it loses some potentiality. So then you'll have, like, for example, bone marrow cells.

And cells in your bone marrow can become white blood cells or red blood cells, but they cannot become neurons. So the deepest part of you is like a pluripotent stem cell, and it's actually never going to change. The more that you differentiate, do you lose particular things? Actually, yes. but why is that a problem? Is it even a problem? Right? So a part of you think so

because a part of you is afraid that if you adapt in one way and something happens negative and you're not able to adapt to that thing, that thing, then you will suffer. Agreed? Oh, yeah. Right?

So like you're so afraid of like like you never want to put your money down in one direction. You want to stay, you know, like, you. I always have one foot out the door just in case, you know. Right. So I think that's where you've got to be really, really careful because there are a couple of things. And this, you have to decide the direction that you want. I'm assuming for a moment and I do think that, you know, you need to be able to do things in a particular direction and have faith in yourself that if,

arise, like you're going to be adaptable enough. Yeah, especially already putting myself out there in these situations. Like, you know, apparently I am adaptable, even when I'm not trying to adapt. Right. So I think that this is like this is all BS at the top. And anytime you're worried about it, Johnny, just go back underwater. Just go beneath the surface. And once you're at underneath the surface, the more time, the more there's a connection between the top and the bottom,

the more you will be at peace. Yeah, I've definitely noticed that. It feels like I'm kind of connecting what I know on the inside to kind of the more conventional outside, whereas, like, it's almost kind of hard to distinguish in and out at times. And so let me ask you something.

The more that, the more difficult it is to distinguish in and out, how do you feel about stuff? Oh, I feel incredible. Like, it, it's, It feels peaceful. There it is. It just doesn't happen automatically. Sometimes it takes intention.

Sometimes it is automatic. So it actually gets to the point where I don't even know what a choice is even more anymore. Right. So I think it's interesting that you use the word peaceful because earlier you were asking me to define it. But now as I see your face, I think you know what it means. This is why I wanted to put my camera on because I want to visually show. you that I'm not just trying to make things out. You know, I know you're not.

I can tell. And I think going forward, you know, Johnny, I would say that be aware that it's that loss aversion that kind of restricts you in some way. And the other thing is it's like, okay for you to not conquer that right the second. And at the same time, like, I don't know how to

say this, but you just don't have to be afraid of that. Could bad things happen if you make a choice and commit to something? Yes. Bad things can happen. But you don't have to be afraid of them. And in fact, when we start letting the fear of bad things restrict our choices, control our choices, that's when we begin to suffer.

So if I'm dating someone and I think to myself, if I marry this person, what if we get divorced? What if they're not the one? What if I spend 10 years with this person and the person that I was really supposed to marry, I never end up meeting or spending time with? And so what can happen? I was going to say, that's a lot of what if instead of seeing what is. Well said. And so I noticed.

What am I letting go? If I become something, what am I letting go? That was your question. To which I would say, that's a lot of what ifs instead of. What is? Yeah, so I guess I'm letting go of all the what if. 100%. And what does it feel like to let go of the what ifs?

Nice. Peaceful. I like it a lot. Peaceful. It definitely takes a little bit of deliberate action right now, but sometimes it's automatic. Yep. And the more you deliberately practice, the more automatic it will be. I'm going to be honest.

After three months of this, it's gotten easier, but I also slightly wish I was better, but at the same time, I'm not arguing with the fact that I wish it was better. Well said. That makes sense. Yeah, it makes perfect sense, right? So you're recognizing that there's a part of you that wants to improve, and you can follow that voice, but only to a certain extent. Yeah. There should also be forgiveness that, I mean, how can we expect you to be perfect when you were born, Johnny?

What even is perfect? Right? It only happens when you think about it, right? 100%. Perfection is created in the mind. What is reality is what is. So in a weird way, I think you have all the answers. They just need to be put together for you a little bit.

Yeah, when I spoke to her, she just hushed me up and said, just pay attention. Which is also the right answer in a different way. It's just not how I operate. I've had teachers like that. I personally found that frustrating, but it's not wrong. Yeah, that's why I kind of want to ask you, because that was a very quick conversation with her. Yeah, so let me ask you, Johnny, just as we're kind of like, because I think what was the question you asked me and what was the answer that I gave you or that we came to together? So could you repeat that again?

Yeah, what was the question you asked me? Oh, the question I asked you at the start when we're talking or just now. So do I have to become something because I don't want to lose my adaptability? And what have we learned together today? That I can just commit and adapt while I'm committing, and it's okay if things don't turn out well, because I'll adapt to the not turning out well. Great.

And if you feel bad at some point, where can you find peace? Well, there's nothing wrong with feeling bad. Feeling bad is just feeling bad. Okay. Well said. Any questions for me before we? we wrap up? Not really, other than, I just, I guess I mostly came on because I'm just hoping I'm not

like doing any like spiritual bypassing because being there once, I never, if I go back there again, I'll get out, but I just don't want to go back there again where I'm kind of disregarding an aspect of life to try to get this, this like false peace that I thought I had when I was younger. I think that that's, that makes a lot of sense. So what I'm hearing is that some of the sometimes people can use spirituality as an escape. And not really is like a positive thing. And I think, I don't know how to say this, Johnny, that's something that the more you respect that possibility, I think the better off you're going to be.

And I can't tell you that that'll never happen again. Whether that happens again depends on your vigilance. But I have faith in you. I think you're doing great, and I think just keep doing what you're doing. And I'm not worried about you for what that's worth. Yeah, I really, I've, I like to, I guess I think I've kind of recommitted myself to just normal, regular life, because that is a part of everything, you know? And I thought I was supposed to transcend that.

But now I'm just kind of, oh, I get to be a part of it, but not like part of it, part of it, but engaged in it. And it's a weird balancing act, to be honest. I'm still trying to get used to it. So I'll share with you something that one of my teachers told me and it really helped me because I was ready for it. And I suspect you may be ready for it too. Johnny, you need to be in the world, but not of it.

Oh, I know that. I've been told that before. I know it. So I think as you begin to really understand that, you'll find the balance of, you know, because a lot, and I think you said, it well, that transcending doesn't mean leaving. Yeah, that was a very difficult thing I had to come across.

Yeah. I feel a bit of motion because I definitely went through the, I really wanted to numb out so bad when I was younger. But now, I love feeling things a lot. Yeah, I'm happy to hear that, man. It sounds like you went through some really challenging times. Yeah, yeah. Finding you online definitely helped a lot.

I'm happy to hear that and fantastic. I don't really have anything else to add other than thank you for listening. Thank you for speaking. I think it helps not only me, but we learn something together today. And it helps hopefully a couple of people out there who are listening. So thank you very much, Johnny. Good luck to you, my friend. I like your smile.

Thank you. Bye. I like yours too. Adios. All right. So I don't know if people were able to follow that conversation. but let me see if I can try to summarize. So sometimes we're afraid of becoming something

because anything that I become is by definition something that I let go. Right? So if I join the red team, I'm not on the blue team. And it's our fear of like missing out on the red team that keeps us from joining the blue team. But if we're not careful, We can go our entire lives worrying about what I will miss and thereby missing most of life.

You get that? It's like we're so paranoid about missing out that we never do anything. And then we end up missing out the most. And so this is where I know it sounds kind of weird, but like it's okay to miss out on things, right? You can only make, like, if I have lunch today, I can only eat what I eat. and I can't eat everything. I can't pack all of the joy of all of the potential lunches that I could possibly eat today into one meal. It's impossible. So stop living in the what-ifs and start living in the what-is.