HealthyGamerGG - Ice Poseidon: Autism, Misunderstood, Giving Control to Viewer

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

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This with like, I don't know, like a doctor before, like just mental health and stuff. Yeah, I can imagine. You know, I think a lot of people are, do tend to be nervous. I think, you know, just so you know, we're recording this for upload later, right? We on the same page about that? Okay. Yeah, so what are you, what do you, help me understand what you're nervous about? Well, I mean, well, when I was.

I was younger, I did go to therapy, but it's been so long. It's been like, you know, 15 years. I mean, I just have a lot of things that I've just gone through in my life that is hard to talk about. And I usually don't feel comfortable talking about it to my viewers. Sure. Because, you know, they wouldn't, some of them may not respect what I say. So I just tend to keep things myself. Okay. Well, you know, just a couple of like, A couple of simple ground rules. The first is that anything that you don't feel comfortable talking about, you don't have to talk about. You know, my goal is to try to, you know, maybe help you in some way or educate you or, you know, maybe give you some direction or guidance. And if there's some way I can do that, that's fine. But, you know, the goal here is not to make the masses happy. Right.

And so can you just start off by telling me what do you, what do you go by? What should I call you? I mean, you can just call me Paul. Okay. Yeah, Paul. So can you tell me just, and did you have a particular idea of what you wanted to talk about today? I mean, it would be nice to talk about just, yeah, I mean, just, I mean, well, so I've autism. So that would be interesting to talk about.

Okay. And also just personal growth and, you know, things like that. Mental health when it comes to streaming and a very stressful. environments. I've streamed to some stressful environments. Yeah, okay. I guess that's really it. I don't, know. Yeah, no, that sounds great, man. So can you tell me a little bit? You say you have autism, so can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. So when I was younger, I don't remember what age. I was diagnosed with Asperger's. So that, I think, has played like a pretty big role in my life, I have a like it took me a while to like understand uh social cues and like you know how

just had to be social sure when I was younger I was like super sheltered and always in my house didn't have any friends and talk to anybody had a not a very good uh you know emotional relationship with my parents so I was very just to myself um and I think that also still carries with me today in streaming. Can you tell me, I mean, if it carries with you, is it okay if I ask some questions about that? Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I'm totally open with you. I just, you know, because you can help guide me through how to talk about this.

Sure. So can you tell me a little bit about what growing up was like for you? I mean, it was pretty terrible. It was, I mean, my parents are good people. Like, they're nice and I love them. But, you know, they just didn't, I just don't think they were on the, same page as me. They would always bring me to, like it brought me to therapists. They put me on different medicine. And, you know, but they just never really, I don't think, understood how to,

um, you know, just communicate with me when I was going through a lot of my issues. So it caused me to be a very angry child and angry person growing up. And, you know, that caused me to lash out in school, lash out against other people, lash out of my parents. Um, and, uh, so my, my, my child childhood was very, you know, it was full of a lot of problems. And I had, I was like a very troubled kid. Yeah, it sounds like you were kind of misunderstood and didn't know really how to handle that. Yeah, I mean, I think looking back on it, whenever I would get angry or upset, I just wouldn't know how to express myself. And my parents didn't know what to do.

So, because I wouldn't tell them because I'm not very good at expressing how I feel. So I think they just kind of had to guess. Can you, like, does anything in particular come to mind in terms of like, you know, times or our memories of when, you know, things you got angry and kind of lashed out? I mean, not, I mean, I don't really remember specific moments. There was this one time I destroyed the Christmas tree. It was, they had put me on Zoloft. and then, which I'm sure it's like a medicine. And then I didn't like it because I was like a zombie and like I just didn't feel very good.

So I just stopped it, cold turkey. And they, they kept, they wanted to give me like another medicine that I didn't really want to take either. So I just got very angry and I lashed out and I just like destroyed the Christmas tree, knocked it over, punched, you know, a couple holes in the walls in my room. and, you know, then my parents got really angry, obviously. I did that and they came and, you know, yelled at me and spanked me or whatever. How old were you? I mean, this was middle school, so I don't know, maybe probably 12, 13. Yeah, so, and do you have a sense of why they put you on medication or why they thought you needed medication?

I mean, I was just, you know, I was just always misbehaving. So they probably just, you know, the doctors probably told them that I should get some medication to help me with my issues, right? Like I said, I had a lot of anger issues. So they put me on Zoloft and these like mood stabilizers. But they didn't really help me because I don't think I had, like, I'm not like bipolar or anything. I just like I can control my anger, but just I just got to a certain point when I was younger that I was always angry all the time. I couldn't ever express myself and I had zero validation from anyone. So.

That sounds weird to me to medicate misbehavior. Well, I mean, they, I just don't think they knew what to do because, all right, in school, I was really bad and I had bad grades. And I just, you know. How so? How so? Yeah. What does that mean you were bad in school? I would always try to be to class clown.

So I would, you know, misbehaving class to make people laugh and then I would get in trouble. but then also I would be very angry in school and lash out of people because I also had no friends so you know making people laugh was like the only positive sort of like thing that I got out of people at school but I had to get myself in trouble to do that so it's kind of like a bad situation yeah I mean I can imagine it must have been tough to be like a kid and to think like oh the only way I can make friends or make people sort of like you know treat me well or appreciate that I'm around as if I get in trouble. So you really had to pay a price to, you know, kind of connect with people and make,

make people appreciate you. Well, I mean, they still didn't really appreciate me. I got bullied like crazy in school. Like, I was probably one of the most bullied kids of school. I have really, really bad stories that I could tell you of me getting like of just things that have happened to me in specifically in middle school. That was the fucking worse. I'd love to hear if you're comfortable sharing that.

So there was this one time and I think it was like seventh grade or something. There was this teacher who was really popular and she was pregnant and I was in class and, you know, I didn't want to do my work because, you know, whatever reason. And I was just sitting there and she got very angry at me for not doing my work. And she, you know, came up. I don't know if she was like going through mood swings or something, but she came up and she started like scolding me about not doing my work and I'm like I don't really want to do it. And then she started, you know, kind of yelling a little bit for me to do my work. And then she like,

I don't know, started getting cramps or something in her stomach. And I think she ended up, well, I think she went to the hospital because she had to like leave and, you know, the principal came in, had to like take over the class. And she was, you know, going through like a pretty major episode in class, I think from the cramps. So after that, when the bell rang, the, the rest of the kids in the class just made it up to this rumor that I'd killed her baby in, you know, that she was pregnant with, which obviously wasn't true. But for the rest of the year, I was just known as baby killer. Oh, my God, dude.

By the entire school. And I would tell the teachers and the principal and they just would say, they just didn't care, really. They said, well, I guess we can put you in this isolated classroom. So that's what they did. They put me in this like in school suspension classroom for like two months, which was terrible as well. So, uh, yeah, that's how seventh grade went. Dude, that's, that sounds awful. It sounds like almost sounds like you got punished for reaching out for help.

Well, yeah. I mean, they, I'm from a small town in Florida. They had literally no resources whatsoever. So they just kind of put you, like they just didn't know what to do. or they just had no money for resources or I don't know. Do you remember how you felt about it back then? I mean, I was just angry. I don't really know how I felt,

but I can just remember my entire childhood, I was just angry all the time. And I just hated everyone. I hated myself. I hated everything. I just thought that, you know, I was just not belonging anywhere. That sounds terrible, man.

yeah but i feel like it helped me learn like it helped me grow as a person like pretty quick at least in that kind of regard of like uh toughening up like i'm a pretty tough person and i can deal with a lot of shit so yeah i can imagine that to come out of that on the other end you have to be quite the survivor but um yeah so i mean and that was just seventh grade i other grades you know, has, we're also had their own stories. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Okay. When, I mean, sixth grade was just basic bullying, nothing really crazy, to be honest. When I was an eighth grade, there was this kid, his name,

I think eighth grade, maybe he was still seventh. I don't really remember. But this kid, his name was Pimp, and he was just, this, this, like, kid in my P.E.

class. And every time we would go to the locker room he would like pretend rape me and i know that sounds insane but he would uh so i would always try i would change in the stall instead of changing like in front of everyone because i just didn't feel comfortable with that and one day he uh you know usually he didn't go that far he would like come up and like slap my ass and like you know just like just like uh harass me in front of his friends and it was is funny. But this one time when I was changing in the stall, he crawled under the stall and he like, you know, he had his pants on and everything, but he like grabbed me and he pushed me on the

floor and he got on top and he was like pretend raping me in front of, and then like he opened the stall and there was just like 20 kids, like the whole locker room just there laughing as he's doing that. And so that was obviously humiliating as fuck. And that was terrible. And but he was also the most popular kid in our grade, so I couldn't even tell a teacher or anything. But someone else actually told the teacher that this kid had like, you know, fucking pretend raped me in the locker room, you know, and humiliated me. And he ended up getting expelled from school. But everyone thought that I told the teacher on him.

So they just called me a snitch for the rest of that year. And they just bullied me even harder because they're like, oh, you fucking, you know, got Pimp expelled. And I'm just like, I didn't do anything. Wow, dude. So it's just like a double whammy. This is terrible. Yeah, my.

I've heard of a lot of bad bullying. Like, I got bullied growing up. You know, I grew up in East Texas and, you know, it was small town, Texas kind of stuff where, you know, just your, but that was like your run of the mill, you know, racism. like some degree of like bigotry, like pretty like standard stuff. I mean, this is honestly, Paul, like just as a professional,

this is some of the worst stuff I've ever heard like someone going through. Yeah, my, I mean, it was pretty bad. And I, you know, obviously, yeah, I didn't have anyone to talk to it about. So I just kept it all to myself. So you can see why so angry. I can definitely see why you would be so angry and lash out. I mean, I don't know. I mean, did your parents know that this stuff was going on?

Yeah, I told my parents. And I mean, obviously they went to the school and were upset that this was happening. But the school, I mean, they didn't do anything. There's, they, I don't remember obviously what happened with my parents going in there and talking to them. But I just remember nothing happening. So I don't think the school did anything. But after, no, actually that was seventh grade. the pimp thing because I remember eighth grade I actually did get transferred to a different school

but it was not it was so bad that I got transferred though because what ended up happening was so my parents complained or something and I guess we had a meeting and I was there and they were like okay we can send Paul to this other school that's out of the jurisdiction because they have this like special classroom that he can sit in and it's like a one classroom a day type thing so instead of going to eight periods, I just have, I just stay in one classroom all day with like seven other kids and with like, uh, behavioral, uh, issues. It was called a self-contained classroom. And, uh, you know, people who had emotional behavioral problems go in there. And instead of just like expelling me from school. So, you know, I transferred to that school. But it was awful because obviously, since it was so far away, they had to send a bus to my house that was only for me.

I was the only person on the bus. So they sent me a little short bus instead of like a normal bus. And everyone at my bus stop of like 20 kids, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to this new school now. And they were like, oh, you know, that's interesting. And then this fucking short bus pulls up and they all just start calling me retard. Because, you know, obviously the short bus is like a meme that it's like for slow kids. Right. So I was very upset that that was the bus that they decided to send me every day because, yeah, going to the bus stop was terrible then.

These are my neighbors, you know. They're calling me retard just every day. Oh my God, Paul. But when I got to the new school, it was actually, it was good, though, because I actually enjoyed being in that classroom. And the self-contained classroom is actually what I spent my entire high school in as well. until I was senior at least because yeah I felt very comfortable in there and the other kids didn't bully me

we were all pretty like cool with each other everyone was pretty nice to each other I think it's because they all went through like their own issues so they didn't maybe judge me as much interesting and so I'm really curious Paul like

I can you know I can imagine or remember when I was 13 sort of like how I had a conception of things. Like, you know, why stuff happened, why I got treated the way that I did. What was your understanding of like why this stuff was happening to you? I mean, did you even understand that something was happening to you that you were sort of being treated differently, that you were, like, what did you think about yourself and your situation growing up? I mean, I don't really know.

I remember just thinking, yeah, this is unfair, but I also just thought to myself, oh, I'm just, you know, clearly there's just something wrong with me. Because if I'm having these issues and other people aren't, I suppose there must be something wrong with me. So I just, you know, had really low self-esteem. I didn't know what was wrong with me because I actually didn't get diagnosed with. Asperger's for a while. Maybe it was when I was a little bit older than like 12. Because I remember going to a lot of therapists. They knew I had some kind of autism, but they didn't know exactly what until I think

I was maybe like 14 or something or 15 because I, my parents ended up having to take me to this one really good specialist. And he then was like, okay, this sounds like Asperger's. which I mean it's hard to remember everything in like a chronological order but yeah so even but even with that diagnosis I still I at the time I didn't think I had Asperger's because my parents then started enrolling me in and you know these therapy groups with other kids that had Asperger's and you know the other kids in those therapy groups had it way more severely than I did. So they acted way different, obviously.

And so I didn't even feel like I belonged in those groups either. Because, I mean, now as an adult, you know, and maturing a little bit. I think, like, yeah, I do have, I think I do have Asperger's, but it's not because I, like, I just have a hard time expressing my, emotions and it's like I can't really feel emotions very well. Okay. But, can you explain to me what Asperger's is or what your understanding of it is?

Um, I mean, it's, it's just when you, you know, have a hard time seeing other people's perspectives, perhaps, and you have a hard time reading people's like body language and

understanding what they're thinking. And, and then maybe I have a hard time with talking to people in the form of like, you know, with like sarcasm or joking with people or I'll say something that I think it's funny. But other people, it's like offensive or rude to them. I had a huge problem with that when I was younger. I would say something and people would get like offended by it. And I wasn't trying to offend anyone. So it sounds to me like like sometimes you're just not quite on the same way. wavelength. Is that a good way to describe it? Yeah, I think that's a good way to describe that.

Yeah, and that sometimes you're not really sure what you're feeling or how to express that to people. And maybe some of that, I'm going to assume for a second that that's sort of negative emotions. But that emotional turmoil kind of manifests in ways that can create challenges for you and your relationships. Yeah, I mean, essentially. You know, yeah, making relationships with people has been tough because I have a hard time with, I mean, I don't know, like the basic stuff needed to build relationships. Like I just have a hard time. Like now as an adult, I can, it's easier. But when I was younger, it was so hard.

I didn't understand how to be friends with somebody. Or I didn't understand how to even like have basic communication with people, you know, when I was like 16. And what would you say you've learned as an adult? Like what are some of the key things that you've sort of figured out in terms of how to be friends with someone and how to communicate? Well, now, I mean, I just, I try my best to go out of my way to, you know, be a friend to my friends, right? You know, ask how they're doing and, you know, just, you know, ask if they want to hang out. You know, it sounds basic, but I just had to learn this stuff. It didn't come natural to me.

like I used to read I used to like look on the internet and Google and like read books and like how to like talk and be friends like how to read somebody's face like I didn't know how to do any of that shit what are you getting from my face are you reading my face now I mean yeah you just look like you're listening okay I am listening I mean it's still I mean I'm pretty good at it now obviously because I'm streaming has really helped me a lot with understanding social cues and everything. But even like when I was 20, before I even started streaming, I still had a hard time. Yeah. So it sounds like actually getting in that self-contained classroom was a pretty good experience for you. It seems like you were able to form connections with people. People really didn't bully you and stuff like that. Yeah.

So high school, can you tell me a little bit about what high school was like? I mean, high school was pretty plain. Well, when I was in ninth grade, though, this was the only not plain thing. So I was still obviously upset. The self-contained classroom was nice that I didn't get bullied in, but I was still upset that I was in there still, kind of. And I felt like, and I was still just an angry kid. So the teacher came up to me and was like wanting to have me do my work and I didn't want to do my fucking work. And I started arguing with the teacher.

my ninth grade class. And then he, you know, was like, you know, fucking yelling. And I was just like, and I threatened him. I was like, I'm going to punch you or I'm going to, I don't know, stab you with this pencil. I said, I'm going to stab you with this pencil. I just don't like saying it now because that makes me sound like a bad person, but I was just an angry kid. So I said that to the teacher. I wasn't actually going to do that.

I was just angry. But so obviously they set up a meeting and they. were going to expel me because that's like a threat to the teacher and I was so angry and upset and I started yelling in the room with with my mom there and I started yelling at my mom because she said something that I didn't like to the teacher and I said something about autism or Asperger's or something. I just felt so angry that she said that because I kept denying that I had Asperger's at that time so I started yelling at her and you know what the fucking school did they ended up calling the the resource officer, like the school cop, and they had me arrested for yelling at my mom.

Like, I was just yelling. Like, and they arrested me instead of like trying to de-escalate the situation. Obviously, I didn't get charged with anything, but they sent me over to the, you know, the juvenile detention place. And I ended up sitting there for like two hours. And then they wouldn't release me back to my parents because that was, because, you know, I was yelling at them. and that was where the situation occurred.

So I had to go to my friend's mom for like a week before I could go back to my parents. And that was terrible because I thought that was totally undeserving. Yeah. I mean, and when you say you thought it was undeserving, what made you think that that was undeserving or unfair? Well, I mean, obviously I'm going to be upset that they're trying to expel me from school. Sure. And, you know, I had a lot of emotional problems when I was younger. I just would hope, I mean, this is not how I was thinking I was younger, but now in hindsight, I'm like, I would hope the school would maybe have a little bit more understanding.

But they didn't. They just were like, oh, well, we don't want to deal with it. So just call the police. Yeah. I'm hearing a theme here of people sort of not trying to understand you. I mean, yeah, that sounds like the, that's like the plot here of my childhood. but I mean It's kind of tough man

Yeah I mean it It was it was But so I ended up going So instead of when I got expelled I went to this other school And it was full of bad kids and like gangsters Drug dealers fucked up Just kids that were actually criminals

And like on probation and shit And clearly I'm I don't belong there So my parents ended up Putting me into this this camp. It's called Eckerd, Eckerd's Learning Center. And it was just like, it was this camp that kids go to when they have, you know, behavior problems. Well, half the kids there

were orphans that were being misbehaving in their orphanage. And the other half were kids who got arrested and got sent there by the courts. But my parents, you know, could opt to send me there since I was in this alternative school. But they also, but they had to pay money. So they did. And I went there for three months instead of this alternative school

that had these, you know, these, you know, like drug dealers and shit. So I was, and I actually liked it there. I mean, it was interesting. I ran away three times and then they had to find me and they brought me back and whatever. But all I had to do was be good for like a month and fill out this check sheet and I'd be out.

I ended up staying there for three months because the first two months I was misbehaving. Last month I was good and they let me go. and I got back, I got to go right back to my school I got expelled from. And that's where my behavior issues started to subside. That camp actually helped me. Yeah, I'm sorry, keep going. That camp helped me understand how to control myself a lot better because, well, I mean, like I said,

half the kids there were there by the courts and have been to actual jail, like, and the other half were kids who were orphans. So they obviously had not a very good life at that time. So I kind of like got more perspective. And I didn't misbehave as much because they would beat the shit out of me if I did. Because if somebody starts misbehaving that we have to go in this like group, we have to sit in like a circle and talk about it for an hour. Nobody wants to do that.

So if anyone makes the whole group have to sit there for an hour in a group, then later they jump you. They like beat you up. So obviously I'm not going to misbehave there. I don't want to get fucking beat. I already got initiated when I got there. They beat me with, they put like something inside a sock and they hit me with it when I was sleeping. So that was, uh, yeah, that was not fun. So I didn't want to.

By they, you mean the other kids, right? Yeah, the other kids. So we had three cabins because it was in the woods, this like, camp. We had three cabins. So the kids in my cabin would, you know, they did that as like an initiation. So I'm hearing that actually like, you know, physical consequences actually helped you in terms of like learning how to regulate yourself. Yeah, it helped me with like just self control. Like I didn't lash out. I was still angry, but I just kept to myself. I didn't lash out. And at those people, at those kids or anything. So. And then after a watch,

of not lashing out, I started to like be more content with, I don't know, being there. And I kind of liked being there. It was like kind of nice to be told what to do all the time. And it was kind of nice to, I don't know, like just have a structure in your life. Because you know, you had to line up, you know, in a line when you walk places, you had to do your laundry, you had to clean your bed, flip your mattress. You had to make your own food. You're completely independent. Wow. So it was food like what kind of food would you make? Well, I mean, you wouldn't really make the food, but you would set it out to the other kids.

Like you'd make the table. Got it. So it was kind of like that. It was like a once a week thing. Every kid got, you know, they take turns or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So that place helps me be independent and have more self-control.

So when I left that place and I graduated from it, it was, I don't know. I think it like really helped me become like a better person. Can I just point out, Paul, a couple of just themes that I'm hearing? Yeah. So, you know, the first is that I really do get the sense that like people have not tried to understand you. I mean, I'm kind of hearing so many different stories of, you know, early on like growing up you were misbehaving and your parents sort of like a lot of times you would. get kind of punished. And I think on the one hand, it sort of makes sense because maybe you were lashing out and kind of saying inappropriate things. But a lot of times, you know, it seems like people

sort of didn't care about your side of things. You know, this whole like getting expelled and like you kind of expressing anger and then expressing anger at your mom. I'm sort of hearing, and I've heard this theme before that, you know, everyone blames you for being angry, but like people may not be trying to understand like why you're angry in the first place. Like what's your side of the story? And then certainly with, you know, the whole pimp thing because it's like you had something that you were trying to explain to people. You're like, I didn't say anything. But they didn't care to listen and they didn't care to understand.

And so I'm hearing a lot of sort of situations where maybe you got punished for, you know, stuff that really wasn't your fault or that, you know, people had kind of listened to you or bothered to kind of try to understand your perspective. like, or they really didn't do that. What do you think about that? Is that fair to say? That's pretty accurate. Yeah, nobody cared to listen to me when I was younger. I mean, I had therapists, but they weren't very good until I got the one guy that diagnosed the Asperger's, and I stayed with him for like six years.

Wow. What was, can you tell me a little bit about what made the therapists not good? and what made this guy good. Well, I mean, my first therapist that I had, he didn't even say on autism. He said an ADHD and he gave me, you know, Adderall or whatever. And I didn't do very good on Adderall. I just got worse. My behavior got worse because now I'm super stimulated at school.

And I definitely didn't want to do anything. And now I'm like super agitated and I got angry quicker. And like, and I don't know. And then I went back to the therapist and I would tell him like, I feel worse because I didn't know how to express myself. So I wasn't like, it's the medicine. I just said, I feel worse. So he just put me on a different medicine instead of like trying to maybe understand why I felt worse.

So that's like the theme of all these therapists that I would go to typically until that one guy. He actually didn't give me any medicine. He just gave me advice, which is much better. And so you stayed with him for six years. that's a long time. Yeah, he was this top-rated guy in Palm Beach. So we had to drive like 45 minutes to Palm Beach to get to him. My parents had to, unfortunately, you know, he's very expensive.

My parents had to pay like $700 every time we go there. But he didn't take insurance. So he's like one of the, like, of course he's, you know, just a very expensive doctor. But for good reason, he was really good at what he did. And he, you know, actually sat there. and talk to me and like listen to what I had to say and gave me advice instead of just just giving me medicine and I really liked him. I like I looked forward to seeing him. He was like my the person I actually could open up to. Does he know that he was that important to you?

I mean no probably not I've not I've been told I mean obviously haven't spoke to him in many years So how long has it been? I don't know. I think the, I mean, I think the last time I saw him was like 19 or something. And how old are you now? 26. You've ever thought about reaching out to him and sharing some of this stuff? I mean, I haven't, but I could.

I just, I always just thought he was just, you know, like a busy guy. You know, he's the number one therapist in Palm Beach. So I just never thought he would have time for. or any of that. So. Hmm. But yeah. So, I mean, after I got out of the camp and, you know, that's when I, you know, my parents

brought me to this guy. And then at school, I started being better because the camp helped me learn some things. I'm able to get advice from, from this new therapist who's giving me, you know, good advice about Asperger's and stuff and, like, how to, you know, communicate with people. And I started being better in school. I started not misbehaving. And I went through my. 9th, the second half of 9th grade, all the way up until I was a senior in this like self-contained

classroom, which is a weird experience like in high school to have just one classroom all day for three years. But since I was good for three years, they're like, okay, let's let them out into the general population classrooms. Gen. Pop. As a senior. And yeah, I did well. So, and I felt like good. I was like, I wasn't being bullied and like kids are being nice to me and I was like I felt like I was hanging out with some people like I felt pretty good about myself at that point wow dude that's great but to be fair though we were like 18 or 17 18 and as a senior so it's like obviously kids are past the bullying part so I didn't forgive any of them because these are the same kids that used to bully me yeah I don't know

that people are past bullying at the age of 17 or 18. I think sometimes it gets better, but, you know, I know people who are in their 30s and still bully other people. But I'm happy to hear that. It sounds like you, you'd learned a lot of skills. You had learned maybe a little bit about how to control yourself a little bit better, had learned how to make friends, you know, ask people how they're doing, ask people if they want to hang out. And so I assume things with your parents got better too? Yeah, I mean, my parents and I are good now. We just, you know, it's just a rough childhood.

Yeah. Now, sorry, what are you saying? No, go, go for it. Now that I, you know, I'm an, as I'm an adult so I can express myself better. So clearly my relationship with my parents is better because I can, you know, tell them how I feel and like stuff now. So. Yeah, I was just going to say, I think actually it sounds like your parents tried very

hard to kind of figure out, you know, how to help you. I'm hearing that they were really confused, but, you know, it sounds like they tried quite hard. Like they, you know, had you seeing different kinds of people. And sure, those people ended up not being the right ones. But Paul, I've heard so many stories where, you know, the parents sort of give up at some point, right? Or, because what I'm really hearing is that your parents tried like so many different things to try to help you and even drive you 45 minutes and pay $700 a session to try to get you the help that you need for like six years? Like it sounds like you tried really hard. My parents had to take out a loan to bring me to that camp because I was in court ordered. So I had to pay like $6,000 a month to send me there

for three months. So they had to take out a loan for that. And yeah, if I was a parent, I don't think I would do that for my kid. I would want to help my kid, but that would be like, that's just a huge risk. It's a lot of money. So my parents were very good with that. Yeah. I mean, how do you understand why they did that if you wouldn't do it? What do you mean? You said that you wouldn't do that for your kid, you know?

Well, I mean, it's just a lot of money and I won't and I don't know if this is going to help my kid. So if it doesn't help them, it's a lot of money to just, you know, throw away. Yeah. So I don't know if I would take that, that financial risk. Makes a lot of sense. how do you understand why your parents would take that financial risk? I mean, I think they just wanted to help me any way that they could, you know, despite any financial situation they could end up in.

Yeah. Because, I mean, they saw my misery. Like, you know, they felt bad. Like, they didn't want me to be miserable. Sure. Are you feeling anything as I ask you these questions? I mean, yeah, I feel I'm just like looking back at memories and it makes me feel like, I don't know, like, I don't know how it makes me feel. It's just like a weird feeling, but it's not very strong.

It's just like memories. I don't know. I'd explain it, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. So that's what we're here for. So do you have a sense of why I asked you that question at that moment? No, I don't. Right?

So I saw a change in your face. So you started, I'm not quite sure if you were like, like, sucking your teeth or something. Like your facial expression change, you started to do something with your mouth. I'm not trying to make you a self-conscious. I realize it could be doing that. But I noticed signs in your face that you were experiencing some kind of emotion. Yeah. And so it was a different kind of emotion from what I've seen so far expressed in your face.

and and you know if I if I had to say like can we talk about that emotion and maybe try to understand what it is yeah I mean we can talk about it so so let's let's kind of think about this you you had images in your mind of you and what were the images of of well I was just trying to remember you know things that happened when I was young so I was just you know replaying the situations and yeah I was just maybe it's a little bit of a discomfort discomfort feeling maybe that's like what I felt but uh or sorry I don't really know probably discomfort I think so let me let me ask you kind of something weird do you know what you felt was negative or positive or maybe a little bit of both I think it was kind of positive

yeah I mean it's it's uncomfortable to think about but it's positive because I like to see my you know, where I've, how I used to be when I was younger versus now. It's, it's nice to look back and be in like, know that I have learned so many things. You know what I mean? Yeah. So what do you think about love? Like, do you think it was love? Do I think it was, well, what do you mean when it was love?

What you were feeling just now? Uh, no, I don't think so. Okay. Who would I be loving? Ah, good question. So I know it sounds kind of weird, but maybe it was being the recipient of love. With my parents? How so? So here's, so it's kind of weird, right? Because it's a positive feeling that's uncomfortable.

Right. And then you're actually remembering like miserable circumstances. Uh-huh. So that's kind of confusing, right? Because like if I'm remembering misery, but I'm feeling a positive emotion. Like, how does that work? You with me? Yeah.

And then we were sort of talking about essentially like, you know, your parents is kind of taking a big financial risk. And then I started to see your face change when, when, as we sort of talked about that, you started to say like, well, you know, they saw how miserable I was. and what I'm kind of hearing is like a story of you not being understood, you not knowing how to express things to them. And at the same time, them putting themselves in like financial risk essentially to roll the dice because they didn't know if $6,000 a month is going to help you or not. But they saw how miserable you are.

And so I'm wondering whether like, and it can be hard to like be, it can be hard to, for other, people to like feel to see our misery and like do something about it it can actually be like really uncomfortable for us to receive kind of like love or faith or or even be treated with value no i feel that's that's crazy you say that because i literally feel uncomfortable with positive uh reinforcement a lot of the time like when people give me compliments i feel uncomfortable by that. Like, I like compliments and I, for sure, but I, you know, am a little bit

uncomfortable because it's just, I mean, even now, it's just, maybe I'm not used to it or I don't know. I mean, obviously, it's a stream where I'm used to it, but it's still, like if a viewer says, okay, let me reiterate that. If a viewer compliments me in the chat, obviously, there's no discomfort. But if the person in real life says it to me, it's different. There's a little bit more, I'm a little bit more awkward with it. Yeah. So Paul, do you, do you? So maybe love is not the right word.

So like what about feeling valued? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if, I mean, I look back, my parents valued me for obviously, for sure, but I don't know if that's what I'm feeling right when I looked back at that. But I don't know. I mean, you would know more than me potentially. Sort of, right? Because you're the one is actually feeling it, though. So it's not like I'm a mind reader. You're not a mind reader. But I just, I don't know. Like I said, I'm sorry. I just can't. Like, I have such a hard time with emotions.

Yeah, I understand that. Why are you apologizing? I just don't want you to be, I don't know, like, upset that I'm not explaining it well. Yeah. Are you getting the sense that I'm upset? I mean, no, but I just do like, you know, pre-apology. Yep. So let's understand where that apology comes from. So like if you're not getting a signal from me that that I'm upset, I'm sort of getting that your mind is actually activated preapology. EXE. Does that make sense to you? Yeah. It's like, oh, maybe I'm not doing a good job, so I better apologize because then this person will be disappointed because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Is that why you're apologizing? Yeah. So that, I think, is also like an important bit of programming you've learned because I think in the past, people have punished you and been upset with you because you haven't done some things that you've been incapable of doing. Yeah, that makes sense.

And so I'm not expecting you to be good at this. And, you know, I actually, I don't expect you to be bad at it either. It's just. It's not just beating on me. It's getting really hot. Yeah. totally cool man um i i kind of think about this is like this is a co-op game so like you know if it's helpful we can try to explore emotions and and maybe like help you understand what some of that

stuff is swim around in there i may not know you may not know but hopefully we can figure it out together what do you think about that yeah i mean i would if i could understand emotions better that would be really amazing because when i'm not going to lie when you asked about love earlier i I just thought, I was like a little worried for a second because love is like just one of those things. I totally have such a hard time feeling. Don't really understand. And I just, you know, and it makes me feel bad because I should love, you know, more often, right? Like I should love people.

Like I love my parents. But it doesn't come in the form of like a physical emotion. It comes in the form of logical thinking. Yeah, so that's why I tossed out that word there because it occurs to me that I know it sounds kind of weird, but like sometimes that's how love can feel. Like if you can kind of think about it's weird because love is sometimes an emotion that we think of as a positive emotion, but oftentimes is like a hurts on the inside. It's weird like that. Okay. So I'll try to explain a little bit.

Okay. So you were thinking about your misery. Uh-huh. Right? And you were also saying that logically, it doesn't make sense to take a, you know, alone on rolling the dice on a kid who's like kind of hopeless. Like they've tried a bunch of stuff, right? Like you've been to special classrooms.

You've been here. You've tried this therapist, that therapist. And so I could imagine that like you maybe felt some degree of hopelessness. You may not have recognized it. But I think on some level, like, you understood that you were bouncing around from thing to thing to thing. And like, you know, like, I almost get, this is the second theme. So I get the sense that you were a kid that no one knew what to do with. Like, what do we do with Paul?

Like, what do we do? Like, let's try to medicate him. Let's try to put him in this classroom. Let's try to put him in that classroom. Let's expel him. Let's suspend him. Let's like, what do we do with this kid? And it can be really, really hard.

I mean, you know, one of the most devastating things to your self-esteem, the self-esteem of a child, is for, like, the world to not know, like, what to do with this kid. And to be that kid. And then for your parents to sort of, like, have tried so much stuff and it kind of, like, not having worked. And I don't know that you sort of consciously understood this, but I think it manifests in self-esteem. Like, you felt like probably not like a great kid, right? And you were, like, really angry all the time. And angry was just sort of, like, the way that these emotions, like, other emotions manifested. Yeah, I mean, that makes, I mean, yeah, the anger just was everything.

Yep. And so when you think about that kid and you think about your parents sort of like knowing that maybe this wasn't a great idea, like logically didn't sound like a great idea, but for them to really put themselves at financial risk when we didn't know if it was going to work, like it sounds like a stupid decision. but like it's a stupid decision they made for you. Yeah. And that's,

and that's, uh, yeah, I mean, that's like love, right? So, yeah,

exactly, right? So like, and that's why it feels kind of weird on the inside because it's not like a positive emotion. There's like, there's some kind of hurt. But it's also like,

you can tell that you are on the receiving end of someone's like stupidity. That you are on the receiving end of like they're making a bad decision because they love you, right? It's kind of weird. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, no, that may, yeah, that does. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And so sometimes that's what love feels like. So I'd say, like, take a snapshot, you know, screencap that, and like to feel valued when maybe you yourself didn't think you were worth it, like for someone to take a risk on you that may not have worked out, but for them to like care about you that much and like put their own financial health at stake

like for your sake it can it's like something that maybe like there's a little bit of like like you know pity or something on that spectrum in there too does that feel right to you? No I don't think pity I hate pity so much I hate when anyone gives me pity so I don't

and I know what I feel that Okay, okay. Yeah, so, you know, I'd encourage you, Paul, to just kind of like, pay attention to that, because sometimes that's what love or feeling valued or feeling cared for. Do any of those kind of resonate with maybe what you could, you could have felt back then? Like, in terms of when I asked you about your feelings? No, back then, I didn't feel cared for at all. No, no, I don't mean back then.

I mean, like, just a few minutes. ago. Like as we were talking about it. A few weeks ago. No, sorry. Sorry, a few minutes ago. Oh. Yeah, I mean, looking back on it, yeah, they, I, I, I guess that could be what it is,

like, that I felt cared for. No, so I think what's happening is that you didn't feel cared for back then, but now you're realizing that maybe you were cared for. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that could be it because it is like a, I felt like, yeah, it's like a positive feeling that I was feeling. So even though it was like you were having like memories of hurt with a positive feeling in the present. Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

That's crazy to think about. Like I'm just thinking about it. It's kind of crazy because I didn't ever really think like that ever. when I think of, I just look at stuff like with black and white, honestly, with everything that I look at and what I think about. So I don't, so it's, it's, it's interesting that you, you put it that way because it's, it's, uh, it really makes me think and like, oh, maybe that's right. That is true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is, you know. And how do you come up with like, like, how do you know that? Like, how do you come up with that? Uh, how do I,

do I come up with, are you asking you because you want to do this process yourself down the road? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like how do you look at stuff not so black and white? With practice. Right? So, so, so this is what, what training is for and this is what practice is for. But I think that let me see if I can give you a better answer. Because what I'm hearing in that question is, can you teach me to do that on my own and can we do that again? Yeah. Is that the question? Yeah. Yeah. So let me, can I have a second to think about how to teach that to you? Okay. Okay. So here's the thing. When you're growing up, so black and white is fine. Like that's not a big deal. So when you're growing up, you have a conception of things, right? Like if you think about your memory,

your memory is laid down by a particular mind. So your memories of like, you know, being frustrated with your parents for like putting you on Zoloft, those memories were like saved to your hard drive by like a 12 year old mind. Does that make sense? Yeah. It's kind of like if I draw a picture of, you know, a dinosaur and I'm six and I have that picture on a piece of paper

and then I like 20 years later I'm a great artist the piece of paper with the dinosaurs was still made up by a six year old so it's not like as my skill as an artist improves all of my past pictures get better does that make sense

so bizarrely our memories are the same way so our memories get laid down by the mind that exists at that time So it's not going to be very easy for me to see it other than in black and white because I was so young. Exactly. But now what you can do is now there's like 29-year-old Paul, right? So you can actually go and revisit, huh? 26.

Make me feel old. Sorry. There's 26-year-old Paul, 25-year-old Paul, 24, whatever. It doesn't really matter. There's Paul. there's the adult Paul who can go back and revisit those experiences. But you're going to revisit them with your adult mind. And when you revisit them with your adult mind,

there's actually a technique to like go through those like experiences again, right? So for example, like, you know, you can, and this is where things get a little bit tricky. Like you have to really sort of do it in a, in a systematic way where like, you can kind of say like, okay, what happened first, what happened next, what happened third. And there's actually like a technique of almost like journaling where you can just write down, like, you know, I would say like write down one page of like a memory that you had. And then and then you can sort of analyze it with your current mind. And you can go through and like look at each sentence and ask yourself,

what could I have been feeling then? What could I have been feeling then? What could I have been feeling then? What could I have been feeling then? Because your memory is going to be like anger is going to be each of the. those things, right? Like all your memory is just going to be purely of anger. But if we think about, you know, the, the scenario with like,

pimp in the bathroom, like, there's like shame, there's humiliation, there's like, you know, injustice. There are all kinds of other emotions besides anger. And so as we revisit our past experiences, we can take that six-year-olds drawing and we can kind of like fix it up a little bit. And then you'll have a new perspective on it. That makes sense. I don't know if I'd be very good at that, but I guess, like you said, it's with training.

Absolutely, right? So when you say, I wouldn't be very good at it, are you talking about aptitude or experience? I mean, I guess a little bit of both. I think so, too. Yeah, I'm not very good with the, like, I would have never even thought about the word like shame or injustice when you brought up the Pimp's situation. I would only think of anger because that, you know, is that emotion is, well, a shameful emotion, at least in my experience, shame doesn't really translate well in memory as well as anger, at least. Well, yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying, right? So like, like it, when you say translate well in memory, your memory is going to be dominated by experiences of anger.

And this is where anger is actually a protective emotion. anger is what protects us from all the other negative emotions because like you know shame is like harder to deal with than anger is like at least at anger like there's there's like something you can like you know direct your anger at so you don't have to look at yourself you don't have to feel ashamed if I'm pissed at pimp for like you know I get pissed at him I don't have to feel hurt anger is actually what protects us against hurt that makes sense I mean yeah actually oh yeah that does make a lot of sense because shame is, I mean, that's, it's probably the worst emotion in the world.

If I could do anything to avoid feeling shameful, like I would love to, but. What do you do when people pity you, Paul? I get angry. Right. I don't like people pity me. I feel like they are, I don't know, maybe being condescending or something. Yeah. Right.

So, but what is pity? When they feel sorry for you. Yeah. Is that condescending? I mean, not everyone who does it is condescending, but that's just where my mind goes immediately. Very good. Right. So I'm going to change that answer for you a little bit.

It's the way that I feel, I feel condescended to. I feel like people are condescending to me when they pity me. Does that make sense? Right? Yeah. And so like when you, when people like pity you, like there's like actually some degree of like potential vulnerability or hurt there. Is that? Because like if I, like if, you know, if you were in an accident and you broke your leg and I felt pity for you, like that's not necessarily condescending. Sometimes pity can be condescending, by the way. So I think we got to be careful about pity. But, you know, I could feel like compassion or I could feel empathy. The thing you've got to be careful about is that compassion and empathy may feel like pity to you. Yeah, that makes sense. I, uh, you know, I think what I think I, I think I, I I might feel so bad about when people pity me and I feel like condescended to because I,

you know, compassion and empathies are also two emotions I have struggle with. Yep. So, so I can't really, I can't really, um, like, point it out when I see it, you know. Yep. Very good. So I think like, let's think about that. So one thing is I do think pity has an element of condescension to it, right? Because pity is like, oh, like when I'm walking down the street and I, you know, there's a beggar. And then like, I, like, I, I have like my, you know, nice clothes and I've got my fancy new phone and all this kind of stuff. And like, oh, like this poor beggar, like, oh, like, let me like, let me pity you. Like, it's like, I'm, I'm up here and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to give you, I'm the hand that's giving and you're the hand that's receiving.

So sometimes with pity, there is a power dynamic with that emotion. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think the thing you've got to be careful about is if you're colorblind to compassion or empathy, if we think like, pity, compassion, and empathy are all going to kind of overlap to some degree, right? The problem is that if I'm sending you all three signals, but you're only able to see one, then how are you going to respond? And anger, yeah.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense because anytime people have tried to console me, I do get angry because I just, I can't deal with those emotions. Even now, I do so bad with it. If I feel, if something bad happens or I feel bad, if somebody tries to make me feel better, I don't usually respond in a positive way. Yeah, that's got to be. That makes sense now. Yeah.

But how do I fix that? Well, so I think that that's where, you know, just acknowledge. So this is, okay, so now I'm going to give you a playbook. Hold on one second. Let me, can I have a second to give you a playbook? I just got to make it up real quick. Okay. Okay.

So it starts with you recognizing this fucking guy is being condescending to me. Okay? So it actually starts because that's a signal that you can detect very easily, right? Yeah. So like when you feel like someone is being condescending towards you, that should be like the, you know,

the running low on gas light in your car. Like that should be the signal to you. Okay. Once you feel that way, if you feel like someone is being condescending, to you. You need to pause for a second and then do a little analysis and ask yourself, you know, is this person really being condescending? If this person were trying to be compassionate, what would they do differently? If this person were trying to be compassionate, would I be

able to tell the difference? And this is where you can also kind of use like, you know, the friend example. Like if you take yourself out of the equation, if someone's, you, you know, dad passed away. And then like someone went to their house and said to them, like make it like a third person thing. So like person A's dad passed away. Person B shows up and says this thing to person A. Are what I consider that condescending?

And this is where it's hard because you really have to step out of your shoes. You have to really think about the scenario outside of your experience of it. And then then you can kind of maybe see. And it's almost like what you asked me earlier about like, you know, how do you do that, you kind of step out of your own shoes, ask yourself, okay, like, if this person were being compassionate, what would they do? And if you can't come up with an answer, then, like, that's kind of an interesting clue. You may not know what compassion looks like, which is, you know, I'm not trying to be condescending there. Was that, was that condescending? No, I don't feel. Okay. Okay. But like,

like, you may, I mean, you may not know. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know about that. But, you know, I'd say that if you, if you can't figure out how compassion and condescending, would look different in this scenario, then that's a real sign that maybe they're trying to be compassionate. So step one is recognize the pity and anger, recognize the feeling that someone's being condescended. Recognize that you're getting pissed. So if you're pissed, okay, why am I pissed?

Is someone being condescending to me? Okay. Next question is like, okay, if two people that were not me and were not this person were engaged in this behavior, would that be compassion or would that be condescension? third thing is okay let me just make you follow on me so far yeah okay so then third thing is if this person was trying to be compassionate would i be able to recognize that could i envision what that looked like could it actually look like what they're doing does that make sense like what do you mean what it could

look like what they're doing. So like someone's doing something to you, right, that makes you feel like they're being, they're being condescending. Yeah. Right. So let's say I say to you, oh, Paul, you poor thing, let me buy you some deodorant. Okay. Right. And so, so then you can ask yourself like, okay, does buying, does buy deodorant, like, could that be a sign of compassion, or is it necessarily condescension? Does that, does that question make sense now? That one makes sense. yeah. Right? So like, and with deodorant, it's like, well, a decent chance that it's condescending, right?

Yeah. But it's like my dad passed away. Someone got me flowers. Like, even though you may feel condescended, like, people are like looking down on you. Like, I don't need flowers. Like, who the fuck do they think I am needing flowers? Like, you know, that's not really, that's not really how I feel. Like, uh, if somebody, if something bad happens and somebody says, like, where to get me flowers,

I mean, nobody in my family has died. I don't know how I'd feel with that. But when something bad happens, you know, like let's say there's like some drama online or something that makes me feel really bad. And then somebody like my girlfriend wants to try and make me feel better. I won't feel pissed because I'll be like, who does she think I am? I'll feel more pissed because she's, you know, I don't know, like talking in a place where she is not also feeling bad.

So she is trying to give me, like, I don't know, trying to make me feel better. It just makes me feel pissed because I feel like they don't, I feel like she wouldn't understand how I'm feeling. So that sort of condescending feeling is how I, is how I feel. So it makes sense? So why do you call that condescension? I mean, I, I don't know what else to call it. So, so, so you feel like your, your girlfriend, like, doesn't have this, the stance to be compassionate? towards you or like to console you.

That and also I don't like when, you know, if she's trying to console me with something, she's bringing up, not just her anyone, bringing up bad, like the bad memories again. That just happened. I don't like that either. I don't like when people want to talk about something to try to make me feel better because it brings back those negative emotions. And I don't do good at dealing with negative emotions. So I don't even want to go there.

And then so it's like a multi-layered thing why I get pissed. Good. I mean, it's not good that it's both, but it's good. I'm really happy, actually, Paul, because it sounds like you actually have a lot of insight into why you get pissed. I mean, even nowadays, I still keep to myself, you know, I mean, I don't even really talk about things with my girlfriend. She tries to talk about things with me, but I just, you know, I kind of just keep to my. myself. I don't let her usually. I just don't, I'm so used to keeping things myself that I, that's just what I've come accustomed to. Okay. So I'm going to give you step four,

which is, I think, talk to the person that you feel angry at for trying to console you. And this is where you can signal some things to them, right? You can tell them explicitly. Hey, I recognize you're trying to talk to me about this, but I actually find that talking about it, like brings up more negative emotions, right? Just like you explained to me, like, just share that with them. Have you tried doing that? No, I usually just get angry and I tell them to go away. Right.

So we're going to like, like, I know this sounds kind of weird, Paul, but we got to like retrain those neurons. Right? So that's not going to help your relationships. It's a really bad habit, I know. I just, my whole life, 26 years. I just have only been to myself. and that's just it, you know. And then actually, when I became a streamer,

I definitely couldn't express myself. I did not feel comfortable expressing myself to people on a live stream, you know. Paul, what's your understanding of why you've become so self-reliant? I just have trust issues. Well set. Right. So I think the way that I would put that, I think you have a lot of reasons to not let other people in.

I don't know what you're referring to when you say trust issues, but what I'm hearing is a kid who was chronically misunderstood growing up. Well, when I say trust that and when I say trust issues, I mean, yeah, I just don't want to give, I don't trust anyone else with my feelings. I don't know. I just don't like, I've just had too many bad experiences where I tell someone about my feelings and then I feel worse. They make me feel worse. Are you feeling worse now? No, I prepared myself to. chat with you. So I, you know, I just, I have an expectation when talking to you. So I don't

feel bad because I've already gave myself that expectation, right? Okay. Do you feel like you're, okay. So when it comes to your girlfriend, I do want to give you some concrete feedback here to where like, I think instead of, I think it's fine to push her away, but just use this language, if that makes sense. You know, just tell her, hey, sometimes like, I recognize that you're trying to help me, but sometimes it's actually like makes things more emotionally difficult. I prefer to kind of process on my own. And you think that's, is that like, I mean, is that more healthy than me trying to figure out how to talk to her? Like, I would prefer if I didn't get angry.

Bro, that is talking to her. That's the first step to talking to her. Okay. Does that make sense? It's like, I just want to, like, eventually I want to be able to not get angry and feel so negative when people try to. Yeah. So I don't want to push them away.

I just can't deal with the emotions when, you know, I just can't deal with them. I just get so worked up, you know. Yeah. So that actually is the first and most important step, right? Like, so if we want to figure out like, so what I'm hearing from you, Paul, is that you, and the people that you care about, you want to be able to move in the direction of being able to discuss emotional things.

Right? Yeah, I want to, yeah. Okay. So that starts out by figuring out, if you want to go somewhere, you have to start by figuring out where you are. Does that make sense? Uh-huh.

Like, if we're in, like, South Florida, like, that's where we got to start. Like, sure, I want to be in the Pacific Northwest. Like, that's where I want to go. But we got to start where we are. And so signaling to your girlfriend, I know it sounds kind of weird, but that's a way to open up the conversation, right? So instead of just pushing her away and like jumping into your emotions too heavily, what's going on? I feel like I just lost you for a second.

Oh, no, my microphone is flashing. I just want to make sure. So I think, I know it sounds kind of weird because it sounds like you're pushing her away, but I don't think it's actually pushing her away. I think it's actually the first step to letting her in because you're signaling to her, hey, this is hard for me. It's not that I mean. It's not that I don't care about you. It's not that I don't appreciate it. It's hard for me to be consoled right now. Okay. Right? And so like you kind of signaling to her like what you can handle in a respectful way where you're not saying things that are hurtful. You're not lashing out to her. That's going to start to lay the foundation for like the next step in communication. But if I tell her to go, uh,

to go away, you know, because I'm not feeling good. How do I open myself back to that conversation? Because that's the hard part. Yeah, but you're not telling her to go away, right? You're just saying it's hard for me to talk. And then, and then, Paul, you're brilliant, bro. You say exactly what you just said to me, which is that I want to be able to have this conversation with you, but I recognize there's a part of me that's pushing you away, but like I don't want to, but it's hard for me to like sit with these negative emotions. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Like you can even say something like, I feel myself pushing you away, but I don't want to. How does that sound? I mean, that's accurate. My only fear is that I go back into the conversation and, you know, that I just get angry during it. So you share that as well, right? So you say that. You say, I want to have this conversation,

but I'm afraid that because it's painful, I'm going to get angry and I don't want to get angry. And now, I don't know if you've been paying attention, Paul, and I'm not trying to be condescending here, but that is you sharing your feelings with her. That is like literally what that is. You were doing it at that point. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Right? because, like, you've shared actually a lot with her at that point. You want me to recap? Just or... Yeah, I mean, no, no, it's fine. I got it. It's, I shared a lot.

But we haven't shared, like, the main part of it, though. We've only shared how I feel before the conversation. Yep. Good. So that's actually how you do it. So, like, what you do is you start, right? So, like, if I'm, if I'm, like, let's say you've got, you know, let's say you have a broken arm. Okay.

So if I'm a doctor and like there's a child with a broken arm, I don't start by touching this. I start by touching this. And then I get closer. Does this hurt? No. Does this hurt? Does this hurt? Does this hurt?

Oh, this hurts a little bit? I'm sorry. Can I just move a little bit? Okay, that hurts. Oh, that really hurts. Oh, my God. Oh, that's very painful. I'm so sorry.

So you start in a safe zone and then you slowly move towards the deep end. Right? You got to start in the kitty pool. and then like as you guys talk about it and then like this is where she's not going to feel pushed away because you're sharing with her right and then the two of y'all

are going to work together about going into the deep end makes sense yeah I mean I'll definitely have to try that because I guess I keep trying to go right into the deep end I think so you took the thought right out of my mind right you want to overwhelming

yeah you want to teleport right to where you want to go but you got to go slow, Paul. Right? Because like if we think about it, why is it so hard for you to connect? It's because like for like, you know, the first half of your life or even longer than the first half of your life. Like it was hard to let people in because you didn't know how and they didn't understand you and they like, you know, you didn't do anything wrong, but they still called you a snitch and bullied you. Like, of course you've got trust issues. So you have to you have to give yourself the patience to build that trust. stop and it needs to be built up slowly.

You know, you don't, you don't like build up trust in the 24 hour period, right? Like trust is something. It's not like, you know, it happens slowly. Yeah, it makes sense. Relationships are tough. I don't know how people, I don't know. Not relationships like boy, girl, but like, you know, friendships, all kinds of relationships. It's just, it's tough.

I don't, like, I wish I could just, it just came naturally to me. more often, but it's so hard to do. Yeah. I'm, can I share some feelings with you? Yeah. So when you say something like that, it makes me feel something like pity for you, right? Okay. Like, I just, I think it's sad, and I'm trying to avoid that feeling, but I have it.

I kind of like think about your life and like, you know, it sounds like you sponsor. on hard mode. Like you're playing the game of life on hard mode. And so I feel some degree of like compassion towards you. How do you feel about that when you say, does that rub you the wrong way? I mean, it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't rub me the wrong way. I mean, I'm maybe on medium, because I'm, I'm pretty like privileged to like live, you know, in a nice family and stuff. So I'm not, I don't think like I have a hard life, but I had just, you know, when it comes to like more deeper emotional stuff, that's when it gets tough. But that's not really something I would consider like a hard life. Yeah. So let me modify what I said a little bit. You let me know how this

makes you feel. Okay. So on the one hand, Paul, I respect you. I think you're a survivor. I think you've, you know, like it sounds like you had a really challenging upbringing in a lot of ways and you actually like worked really hard to like put yourself back. together that you've grown into an adult and like you've learned how to do things that did not come easily for you that other people take for granted feeling okay with that so far yeah is that fair to say for me to say that and respect me for that and at the same time i'm also sad that like you were dealt that hand in the first place yeah i mean that's that's uh i like that way better yeah so it's kind of interesting because like I can respect your triumph and also be like man that sucks that

you were in that situation where you had to triumph in the first place makes sense how does that make you feel I like that makes me feel good yeah so I just don't like when yeah I didn't like the hard mode thing because it makes me feel like I'm being in the wrong because there's people who have these emotional problems and their life isn't good because Because they, you know, like I went to that camp, bro. They had, you know, these kids were in the same boat as me, but they had, they were orphans or, you know, they were going. They were in jail and like, they just had way worse lives to me. So my perspective is so wide that, yeah, I just, I felt kind of like I was in the wrong when you said hard mode.

Yeah, I can understand that. Can I disagree with you there a little bit? Can I share my experience? Yeah. So I've worked with people who are very privileged. and very wealthy. I've worked in jails. I've worked with kids. You know, I've worked at places where kids run away on a routine basis. Let's just put it that way. And what I've come to realize is that no amount of privilege protects you from suffering. That at the end of the day, and Buddha,

the guy who founded Buddhism, you know, he sort of said this and he said that like, ultimately like suffering is a part of the human condition. And it's been really bizarre because I've worked with people who are suicidal and like in jail and are going to be there for the next 40 years. And I've worked with people who just got promoted to be CEO of a, you know, a tech startup out of MIT who are also suicidal. And when I really sit with them, both of them, I don't think that, you know, does one have more privilege? Absolutely. Does one have certain benefits that they should be grateful for? Absolutely. Is one's life easier? Absolutely. And at the same time, in my experience, suffering and difficulty are not the same thing.

It's kind of weird. It's just my experience. That's a good way to put it. I like that. Do you think other people see it that way? Because I felt like the bad guy there for a second because, or I felt like I was in the wrong for a second because of how other people would perceive it who aren't as well put as you.

You know, you can understand things probably. a little bit better than the average person. Yeah, so I think that that's a problem that people, we seem to be gatekeeping suffering more and more and more. Right? We allow some people to suffer. And then we get into this weird like contest about who's the most, who's allowed to suffer the most?

It's weird. You know, like, because like at the end of the day, Paul, like you have probably the single worst case of school bullying that I've ever heard this whole thing with like pimp in the bathroom like I've heard a lot of cases of bullying like by like you know people like that's the worst I mean it's like fuck like it's humiliating it's like terrifying you know like that that's that's so psychologically like in the bizarre thing and what's even like worse is like it actually doesn't sound like it was that traumatic for you I mean, it was pretty bad if I still remember it.

I mean, I understand it was pretty bad, but just hearing the way you talk about it, it sounds like in the grand scheme of things, it was maybe one of the worst things that happened to you, but your baseline was like pretty shit. You know, you know what's crazy that, yeah, you know, that was pretty traumatic. But compared to, I mean, now days, I don't know, like, I don't know, Like, I have been through so much worse as a streamer than my childhood, bro, that, yeah, getting pretend raped is almost like nothing. Like, you know what I mean? And that's fucking terrible to say, but it's, it's, that's, my scale is so skewed.

A fucked up shit. I've been through so much fucked up shit. Yep. Absolutely, man. And so this is where I think at the end of the day, comparing suffering, I think is a waste of everyone's time. it's not that anyone deserves to suffer more than you are i think the right move is to like you know if stuff sucked for you it sucked for you and also like if things are worse for other people like have compassion for them and try to help them but like they it doesn't matter

whether my life was good or my life is bad i should still have compassion for someone whose life is like sucks right does that make sense and i don't know why is like societally we started entangling those two like if my life is bad, then I, it's weird. It's like, I don't need to give compassion to others. And if my life is good, then I don't deserve to have compassion myself. It's really weird. I just don't think it makes any sense. I think, you know, someone's life can be terrible and you should be compassionate towards them, irrespective of how bad your life is. Now, you may not be able to do a whole whole lot, right? Like if you're, you know, if you're dealing with trauma or abuse or you've got

diagnosed with cancer and you may not have a whole lot of bandwidth to give, that's completely separate. but in terms of I don't think it's you know I mean it sounds like Paul you've had some things that you should be grateful for like you had parents that loved you a lot and took out alone to try to help their son get on the right track so should you be grateful for that absolutely but did your life suck in some ways absolutely

and those two don't have to be mutually exclusive okay yeah I just always I don't know I just always feel weird like talking about like how hard some parts of my life have been because I just feel like obviously I've got a lot of privilege

and I don't want to overstep my boundary here of you know I know that's like weird but I just I put I just I don't know I just want to make sure I'm not putting myself in a situation where people are going to

look at me poorly in that sense at least I don't know. Yeah, so I don't know, man. I think that, you know, you got to be a little bit careful about your appearance, but I don't. Yeah. I mean, I think that if this is your authentic experience, then that's your authentic experience. Like, it happened to you.

And if people think that you're like, you know, pity farming, you know, I don't get that sense from you. I don't, you know, I think you're just, I think it just sounds like very authentic to me. Yeah. The whole pity thing, actually, I never had an issue with pity as much at least until I started streaming. The streaming, when I first started streaming, obviously I was very sheltered. So it was everything, bro. And I learned a lot of shit from just viewers interacting with me. And a lot of it has been negative learning and not positive learning.

you know, like I've learned to not, you know, feel bad for myself and shit, which is kind of bad. Paul, I just want to pause for a second. So we've been, you know, going at this for about an hour and a half. How are you feeling? I mean, I feel good. I like getting the stuff off my chest. I don't know if I'm doing good at it or not. I'm sorry if I'm not.

There's preapology.exe. I just want to make sure. Sure that I'm not like just dragging things on or something. No, I think that I've, I think today's, so far, everything we've talked about has been very productive. The only reason I pause is because I'm recognizing that we haven't even touched streaming yet. Yeah, it's, I mean, I can keep it short or I can give you the whole thing. It's up to you. Well, so that's where, where I'm actually wondering, you know, I think I actually want the whole thing.

because I think that's, you know, I'm not interested in the abbreviated version. It's just, I mean, I imagine that'll be long. So, you know, are you good for going for like another hour? Yeah, I'm good. So tell me about streaming. Okay. I mean, I don't even know where to begin, dude. It's such a, all right.

I mean, I guess when I first got into streaming, I mean, I'm just going to stick to like the whole mental health and like how I feel part of streaming more so than like how I became a streamer shit because people, you know, know that shit. So, um, I, I don't. Can you tell me a little bit about it? Yeah. Um, well, I became a streamer. I was playing, uh, Runecape, which is, uh, you know, this game I played a lot for like,

ever since I was young, it was, uh, game always played. So I became a streamer. I started streaming Runecape, um, and I made YouTube videos with it. And I, you know, it was just fun. I didn't take it serious. I should just like smoke weed after work. and then go live, make videos, and, like, just troll a little bit on Roonscape. You know, I'd have, like, really good armor and, like, a really bad situation, and die.

And then I'd be like, oh, I fucking died. And it was just funny. And, you know, people liked it. And I started getting a following from that. And, you know, it was all going pretty well for, you know, the first, like, three months. I think I started in, like, August, 2015. Wow. And yeah, I mean, that's how streaming started.

The IRL came out. And I actually started to move my content to IRL or like Pokemon Go is what it was back then on Twitch because you couldn't do IRL on Twitch back then. But and the viewers and everyone really loved it, I really liked it because, you know, it's fucking crazy. Because I was so isolated and sheltered growing up and then streamed for. you know, the first few months, Roomscape, and I started to, like, get out of my shell a little bit, and I started to, you know, express my, you know, my class clown humor on stream. And it really felt like it just was right. It felt like it all led up to this. And then when IRL or like Pokemon Go came out, I really enjoyed like, like I would never talk to, I would

have never been able to talk to people without the stream giving me that validation. And I think that really helped me. When Pokemon Go came out, the first day I streamed it, I had people in my chat, you know, giving me good validation every time I would talk to someone. And it made me feel comfortable with talking to people for like the first time ever. Can you tell you what you mean by validation and what they said that made you feel comfortable? Well, you know, usually I would be awkward, you know, with how I talked to people growing up. And, you know, I could just tell that when I talk to people, the conversations are kind of like weird and don't go anywhere.

Or they're judging me a little bit, maybe. But when I would stream and, you know, I would talk to people doing IRL, my chat would just give me, they'd just be like, oh, that was funny. You're, you know, hilarious. You're, you know, that was good. you know, and I wasn't even trying to really be funny. I was just talking to people. But I guess my quirky, my quirkiness just kind of like translated well to the stream. So, you know, made me feel good.

So even if the interaction I just had was kind of awkward, the stream made me feel good. And I just, you know, was able to do it more and more until I got more comfortable with actually talking to people. And then I, you know, but, you know, then I learned how to actually have decent conversations. because of the stream's validation helping me push myself. Right? The very first IRL stream I did, dude, I was so nervous. I knew I wanted to do it because I'm like, all right, this is going to get a lot of viewers. And it's going to be super hype because it's a new category.

And I think it'll be fun. And yeah, I just, my heart is being so fast. I was so nervous because I never really talked to people. And then all of a sudden, that went so well the first stream. Like, I was so happy, dude, that I was able to talk. talk to people and not feel judged. Like, I didn't really care if the people in real life were judging me. I only cared about the stream, like, judging me, because that was who I was going out

for anyways, right? So it was very, uh, exciting for me when I first did that IRL stream because I had never done like anything like that before, like talking to people. And so sounds great. What, where's the? it sounds like things went downhill at some point. Yeah, I mean, obviously that, so those feel good feelings, you know, whatever. So I started doing IRO like every day.

And I started to, you know, and it was going well. And it was going well for, you know, a little bit. And before I get to the other parts, let me just say, there was this one stream I did on Twitch that didn't go. So like there wasn't, it wasn't that in, like I think I tried gaming. So I did IRO off like a week straight and then went back to gaming. And then the viewers didn't like it. So I started crying on stream and got very emotional because all I was trying to do was just be accepted by my chat, which is a video of that stream.

But it's, it's, it was just like a two minute stream with me just crying and saying, you know, how I felt. And I, you know, people gave me good feedback with, and, you know, hearts and stuff. And I felt good. And I felt comfortable. with expressing myself actually in the you know at that moment or like afterward or whatever in that moment i i wasn't comfortable but i didn't i wasn't a reading chat but afterward when i read the chat i felt more comfortable and i felt much better um which and i bring that up now because later on i will tell you why i decided to stop opening myself up to my stream um so yeah but then so let's

so you know a couple months go by it's going well iRL stuff gaming stuff whatever um um You know, then I got banned on Twitch. I got swatted on an airplane. I'm not sure if you're familiar with what happened. So I was, you know, I did a stream at an airport waiting for a plane to go to Dreamhack. And, you know, and I was very, what's the word, like, irresponsible with my camera pointing. And I was just, because back in early 2017, getting swatted and like having viewers know where you are wasn't really like an issue.

It was like, IRO was so new. It wasn't really an issue. And I had only ever been swatted one time before that, like way before the plane thing. And it was at my house. And, you know, I mean, okay, whatever. That it wasn't like a normal thing. So when I streamed at the airport, and I streamed that airports multiple times as well, I didn't think it was an issue.

But, you know, obviously when I ended the stream, some viewer called the police and said I had a bomb or whatever. And, you know, I got swatted on the airplane when it landed. Like the cops came in and they like questioned me and stuff. And, you know, obviously went on the news and got banned on Twitch, which... Wait, why would you get banned on Twitch if someone swatted? I'm confused. Well, I had been banned a few times before. So I got banned four times on Twitch for,

because, you know, because I had TTS on, right, on my streams and sometimes, but text of speech. So I got banned four times for Texas speech because, you know,

they people would get around filters and, you know, offensive things would come through and I wouldn't skip it in time. So I got banned four times for that. And then I got banned for accidentally leaking someone's phone number. Like I asked for someone, like I asked for a girl's phone number. I forgot to leak the,

fucking microphone. So I got banned for that. So I got banned for getting swatted on the plane because obviously I had already a history. I had like five bands before that. And I think Twitch, you know, saw it as bad PR. They saw my chat was a little, I mean, I'm not going to cookie cutter it. My chat was pretty fucking, like, ridiculous. You know what I mean? Like they were spammy as hell. They could be toxic. They could be like, you know, pretty fucking bad. So I think Twitch, just was like, just, you know, they just banned me because I, and I will say I was pretty irresponsible with the way I was streaming. I was like showing what flight I was going on and stuff with, you know, in hindsight, it's easy to say, oh, that was stupid. But in the moment,

like I said, getting swatted wasn't really a normal thing. So I didn't even think that was going to happen. So yeah, I got banned for obviously, I'm going to assume I don't really, I don't really know. But I think it's because I was being irresponsible with showing where I was and stuff. So let me ask you a quick question, Paul. What's your understanding? I mean, so you were saying that your community, it seems like, you know, they were trolls. Yeah. You know, what's your understanding of how your community got to be that way?

I didn't moderate my chat. I mean, that's as simple as that, you know, I enjoyed the validation that my viewers are giving me. you know, I'd never had anything like this before, so I was very afraid to lose it. And what kinds of things would they validate? I mean, you know, if I was funny on stream, if I was, you know, just saying jokes and, you know, obviously I would say offensive jokes too. Back when I was in my early 20s, offensive humor and like shock humor was like, I don't know, I found it funny. I mean, you know, I'm a, I've heard now, obviously, but I'm not going to like lie. I found it funny.

So I would do it, you know, and I'd say shocking things and offensive things. And the chat found it funny. And, you know, and so it's kind of like the class clown humor, right? You say something in class that's like kind of shocking. The teacher would get mad. I mean, it kind of just carried over, I guess. But the viewers, yeah, they validated it and they enjoyed it. So, you know, I was so afraid to lose anybody.

I didn't want to lose a single viewer because I just felt so good that I finally had people that liked me. So I didn't ban or moderate anything, which is a mistake, by the way. How do you understand why you felt so good? Why were you so afraid to lose a single viewer? How do I explain why I felt so good? Yeah, like, help me understand why you were afraid to ban a single viewer. I just didn't, I was just afraid of like people not liking me anymore and just going away and then I'd be alone again. I really didn't like being alone.

And I really like for the first time saw what it's like to be liked and not be alone. And you know, I just wanted to cherish that because it was very valuable to me. And I was, you know, dude, I was 21, 22 when I first, I was 21. No, I was 20 when I first started streaming. 21 when I really blew up. So I was young and just no life experience or anything. I just didn't know that, you know, surrounding myself with bad validation was even a thing.

What do you mean by bad validation? I just, you know, I mean, so you, there's, I mean, how do I explain it? There's, okay, so you have, if I have a viewer in the chat who's, saying stupid things that like saying making fun of me or something or laughing when I do something stupid laughing at me more than with me. That's like bad validation because he's still in my chat and he's still laughing but he's not laughing for the good reason and I couldn't really differentiate the difference there between good and bad validation. So I just kept everyone because I didn't want to lose anyone because I thought they cared about me.

I thought they were there for me. But, so I, you know, I was just very afraid to moderate anything. So I'm kind of hearing a couple things. Can I just repeat back to you and just make sure I'm on the same page? So, you know, we heard a lot about your early life. Excuse me. One second. So we heard a lot about your early life. And, you know, it sounds like you were not very well understood.

sounds like you were pretty alone in a lot of ways. And then here comes Twitch to the rescue, which it does so many times. And so, you know, there's a sense of community. There's a sense of connection. You get to be the class clown again. And then like Twitch loves that, right? Like we love class clowns. And so I'm getting the sense that you started to cultivate a particularly, you know,

risk like kind of risque attitude telling kind of offensive. jokes which you thought were funny, like people liked you because, you know, you were the guy who wouldn't be so PC, started to cultivate a particular kind of community that would repeatedly say inappropriate things in text to speech. Maybe you weren't so keen on moderating them because you really found that like, it's almost like you'd become kind of, I use this word a little bit carefully, but almost dependent on the validation. I mean, I was hearing you kind of say that, you know, you would do things that or that their validation would allow you to do things that Paul couldn't do and Ice Poseidon became someone different from Paul.

Paul had trouble talking to people, but like Ice Poseidon was like totally cool to talk to people like had friends like is that fair or or is that kind of I mean I don't want to I don't think it's fair to take the blame off of me and put it onto my persona but yes, you're right. But I just want to make sure you, like, I just want you to know that I'm, that doesn't take the blame away from me personally. Does, is what I said, does that assign the blame somewhere? Well, I mean, no, I don't think so, but I'm just, uh, so used to, I'm just so used to getting judge, man, about like, uh, how I, how I'm supposed to feel. feeling shit that I just feel like I have to just say that. I don't know. Okay. What would happen if you

didn't say that? I just feel like people would say that I'm just, you know, deflecting my responsibilities or something. I don't know. I don't think so, but I just thought I would say that to see what your reaction would be, I suppose. I mean, so here's what I. Paul, if we're going to talk about blame, I think you and Twitch, I mean, there's a part of me that loves it too, but I think a lot of times there are marriages made in hell. And that's what this sounds like to me. It sounds like you were the class clown, you were also a champion of sorts,

and they loved you for it, and you loved to be loved for it. And I'm kind of hearing, you know, you didn't moderate things, but at the same time, you're not the one that was, you know, making the text of speech donations. I think you just cultivated a particular. kind of culture. And everyone was sort of happy with that. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, my humor was edgy. And my chat, you know, therefore got edgy. And yeah, I mean, that was, yeah, essentially, yes. Yeah, I mean, do you feel blamed enough by what I said? Is that fair in terms of judgment? Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think this really sounds to me like a situation where, You know, there was a lot of, like, cultivation or evolution of something.

It started in one place, and then it got, like, a little bit worse and a little bit worse and a little bit worse and a little bit worse. I never, you know, I never wanted it to be like, I never wanted to make a fucking edgy sort of like thing. But, you know, obviously, I just didn't know what the fuck up. Dude, I didn't know what I was doing. My channel blew, I went from 400 viewers. I'll say it. I went from 100 viewers to 20,000. in like two months or like I mean overnight essentially dude I mean it was literally

overnight and I had no guidance it was I'm just by myself and I had to just figure everything else everything out on my own and I'm just like this sheltered kid so it was tough dude it was not easy and I just you know fell into the wrong sort of environment yeah I've noticed Paul that when people blow up, it's psychologically very difficult. And, and, you know, there's a lot of good that comes with it, but also like a lot of danger that comes with blowing up. Um, so I've heard that story again. A lot of times it manifests as imposter syndrome to where people like, I don't understand why, you know, these 19,900 people like where they came from. Because I was used to that original 100. Um, but

anyway. So it sounds like you got banned for Twitch. I got banned for Twitch for, you know, having this, like, cultivating, like, just a bad community, I'm quite sure. The plain thing was just, like, icing on the cake. So, and then I went over to YouTube. Now, I was very upset when this happened, obviously, because I didn't know what to fuck to do, bro. I was so scared of being alone again, going back to being this just sheltered misunderstood person. So I made a video and I said, I'm going to be streaming on YouTube,

criticized Twitch and how they banned me, which now looking at it, I get where they were coming from. So I took that video down because that's not fair criticism, in my opinion that I had on them. But started streaming on YouTube. And, you know, I said this one thing that was very, like, just the worst mistake of my life, honestly. Because if you think it's bad, it hasn't even, bro, YouTube, my YouTube career, that's when streaming got ridiculous, like, in terms of how bad it really got.

I said this one thing, and it really just, it's, I should have never said it. I literally said, all right, I want you guys to control my life. I said that to my viewers. And that was the worst fucking mistake in my life, dude. Because that's not good. Because I realize now, viewers don't have your best intention. And, you know, you're just entertainment. Or like a very, or like a parasycial relationship to a lot of viewers in like some unhealthy way.

And I learned that, I learned all that shit the hard way, man. So I had this Reddit that had, you know, that was very popular and had, you know, 100,000 members on it. And that Reddit was who I was talking to. My Reddit would control my life, essentially, is what I told them. And anything that gets upvoted to the top, I would do. And, you know, that's it. You know, I was so afraid of losing these people that I just gave them full power so

they wouldn't go anywhere. And, yeah, so then the next year or so, I mean, it just got, it's just, it got real bad. The viewers were very, you know, even now, I have a hard time talking about this because it's, it's, I just feel like a lot of, like, it's hard to know if I, like, if, if, if, what I'm saying is even accurate or not, not accurate in the, in what happened. but accurate in how I feel. Like I feel like now in hindsight that I was being gaslighted by my Reddit. And that sounds fucking insane.

But I think I was because they would upvote something. I would do it. And then they would tell me. They would upvote another post saying I'm a fucking asshole for doing that. And that I should apologize to them. And then I would apologize and like cry on stream and say, I'm sorry. And then it'd be like not good enough. Does that make sense?

Like it just got very bad, bro, where like the viewers, a lot of the viewers got very entitled. And they started to, and I just only did, I did my best to just try and make everyone happy. But I think a lot of viewers took advantage of that. And it made me feel really bad. And it really fucked in my head for a long time. And that was a huge mistake. I should have never given, you know, my viewers such power over me. What made, what were, what were you, do you remember what you were thinking and feeling when you sort of put that offer out there that they get to control your life?

I was just scared. That was the first stream on YouTube that I did. I was just scared. I didn't want to lose, you know, this, this like magical gift that I was given. Because, dude, I was alone my entire life. And this was like something, there's like a dream come true, you know? Like people like me. People like want to see me.

Like I've never had that before. So I just was so worried about it that I was just like, I'm just going to give them everything. I'm going to give them my, literally the key to my heart, everything. You know, and that was bad. And so the reason you were giving them everything is because you were living a life that, you know, I'm just trying to understand for a second. You know, it's like when I can envision that when you were growing up, there was like your life and there were like normal lives. Right. Like people had friends and people were liked and people were appreciated.

And then there was Paul who was in the special school and, you know, take into doctors and put on Zoloft and. put on ADHD medicine. There's the Paul that we were kind of saying, like, what do we do with you? And then suddenly, like, Twitch and YouTube, you were kind of, you did this for a while on Twitch and then you were afraid of losing everyone. And so you kind of gave them power over your life, anything to not have them leave. Is that fair to say? Yeah.

Because when I mean, when I got banned on Twitch, no, YouTube live streaming wasn't a thing, really. I was, I don't even know who else is streaming on YouTube. I think, yeah, I have no idea. I think I remember like just nobody was streaming on you. Everyone who ever got banned on Twitch, their career was done for streaming. So I was so scared of, yeah, of being like just back to being alone. So yeah, I did like, I went to the extremes on YouTube so I could keep these people and so they don't leave and go back to Twitch and like leave. and you know whatever i'm alone so yeah i gave them full power and so when they would post

something on reddit how would you feel like what would they ask you to do i mean it would just be like content ideas and stuff but um and i would feel fine for i mean for that obviously um but when they would uh when the reddit would upvote stuff that would make me feel bad when I didn't do anything. That, like, there was this one, I mean, I'm not bringing, I'm not going to say names, but there was this one situation with two girls. And one of them, I went on a date for the stream. I didn't really want to date them.

I just went on a date with them for the stream for content because my Reddit upvoted it and said, I should do that. But I didn't really want to. and I actually had this other girl that I was friends with that I liked and wanted to actually, you know, pursue her instead. But, you know, and I went on, so I did the date with the, with the stream girl. And the viewers found, you know, found out that I actually was pursuing this other girl, you know, because, like off stream because, you know, and and but and they they they they were so upset by it they didn't you know to me the stream date the date on stream was just content to me but to the viewers it was like they're watching

me actually date someone and they were upset and they they they were like oh he's gonna be he's like cheating on her he's like he's such a piece of shit he's fucking this and that and I'm just like, oh, fuck. And because I said I gave, you know, the viewers control my life. So I ended up going live that night, like crying. And I was just like, I'm so sorry. I, you know, I didn't mean to do this. Please forgive me.

And I ended up putting myself in a situation where I temporarily tried to date this stream girl that I didn't even like for the viewers, you know, because they told me to. And that was a very awkward situation to be in. And I'm just, it's just kind of, I'm just trying to, like, put it all together. So I'm like stuttering a little bit. But, well, yeah. Paul, I'm, so this may sound like a silly question, but, you know, why did you have to do that? I don't know.

I just felt like they were going to leave and I was going to be alone again. So I put my, so I did that, you know, I, I told my viewers that they would control my life. So that's what it is. That's what happened. And that was the worst mistake ever, because if I ever wanted to do anything that I wanted to do, I couldn't. And if I ever tried, they would, you know, shit on me in my chat on Reddit. They would make me feel so bad. They would, they would, you know, they would just make me, you know, say I'm a scumbag and all this shit.

And to them, it's memes. to me, you know, these are my feelings. My feelings aren't memes. I couldn't say that, though. I could never express myself to my viewers. And I'll tell you why. When I went live apologizing for, you know, pursuing the wrong girl that the stream didn't tell me to, um, they were just, they just used it against me.

They used my, the feelings against me. And they would repost the picture of me crying over and over and over with like captions that they thought were funny. But to me, it really hurt me. And it really, like, upset me. And it really, and unfortunately, I didn't know how to deal with this situation and these emotions.

So I just totally started throwing everyone under the bus. Like, you know, the girls that I was pursuing, the girls pursuing, and then the girl that I was dated on stream, I just literally tried to throwing them. under the bus. So I was pursuing this girl that I liked, right?

And since the stream did it want me to, I went live and apologized for pursuing her, which was bad because obviously it would make her feel bad too. And it would make my viewers lash out at her. So that was the wrong move on my behalf. I should have taken responsibility and just been like, no, I like this other person.

and you know, I shouldn't have played pretend with my stream, but like I said, they, I gave them control of my life and I would do everything. So yeah, so that's how that situation went. So I, after I was like, all right, crying on stream, letting out my emotions to my viewers, bad move. They're going to just use it against me. And, you know, post photos and whatever, it make me feel bad. So I stop doing that. That's why I keep saying I don't like to express myself with the like on streams typically because even now it's like kind of hard

for me to say this because I have so engraved in my head that somebody's going to use it against me. That is it's hard. You know? I mean, I think you've learned that lesson. Yeah. I mean, I have. But, uh, so it didn't end

there. I I also let viewers come stream slighted in real life. You know what stream sniping means? Yeah, I thought that was, but when you're competing in a game, right? And they're watching your stream. But it also goes to real life as well.

So I'm doing a certain IRL stream and they would, you know, a viewer would come up to me in person and, you know, say hi to me. And that's fine. I enjoyed that. I enjoy meeting the viewers saying hi to them. That's great. What I didn't enjoy was viewers coming to my house and spying on me through my window and recording my conversations in private and posting them on Reddit and things like that. But I couldn't say that because if I ever tried to say, oh, I don't like you doing this. Don't do it. Of course,

my viewers would be upset that I'm defying them. So, you know, I would never say anything like that. But my boundaries, there was no boundary. Viewers would, I would leave my door unlocked. And I would let viewers walk in my house as I'm sleeping. And I'd wake up and there'd be seven people sitting on my couch that I have no idea who they are. And then they'd fucking cheer and be like, yeah, he's awake. And, you know, I mean, it would kind of make me feel a little weird, obviously. I'd be like, I don't know if I like this, but I just, I just rolled with it, you know. Why wouldn't you lock your door? Oh, no. I just was so, when I, when I said that I was going to let the viewers control my life, I meant it, dude. I don't want you to do. You. I don't want you

I don't want you to underestimate how much fear I had inside of me when I got banned, bro. And I wanted to not lose anything and be alone again. So I went to the absolute extreme to make sure I stood out enough that viewers weren't going to leave me. So it's interesting, Paul, because usually when I think about, you know, really extreme circumstances, a lot of people will talk about negative emotions. Like, I did it because I was afraid. But sometimes there's actually, like, other reasons, right? There can actually be, like, positive things.

So, like, when I think about, for example, people who stay in abusive relationships, which it sounds weird, but it sounds like you were in an abusive relationship with your viewers. I mean, because it's what you're describing sounds. Like, if you were using, if you replace the word viewers or Reddit with like, you know, someone's name and you just told this story, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, the weird. The weird thing is, you know, the viewers didn't hate me. They liked me. Yeah. So, so I don't think that's weird.

So this is kind of what I was saying is, is that like, you know, a lot of times when you talk to people in abusive relationships, they'll talk about, like, fear is the reason they stay in the relationship. but a lot of times actually the more I've really come to understand abusive relationships like oftentimes actually there's something even more powerful than fear which is some kind of other driver like sometimes love causes people to stay in an abusive relationship like you know the hope that this person will change will cause them to stay in a relationship the fact that they love this person the fact that they've built a life with them you know I've seen abusive relationships that will last for 40 years and when we really think about why does someone stay in that relationship? It's not out of fear. I mean, sure, fear is a big part of it,

but it can actually, I think that things that really get people stuck are oftentimes positive emotions or like, you know, some kind of positive value. Do you think you were getting something out of this? Yeah. I mean, of course, you know, I got a lot of viewers, you know, made money. Of course I got something out of it. I just went about, I just think I dropped my boundaries way too much because in the end, like, it's self-destructive, you know? And then there comes to a certain point where you can't keep up anymore, man. Like, at a certain point, I couldn't keep up with what my viewers wanted.

What they want? I mean, okay, I mean, this is going to be really tough to, to talk about and I really don't like talking about it because people like to make memes about it but I'll talk about it you don't have to talk about it well I but I will though

because they use back back I wonder if you're making the same mistake now that you were back then which is like if there's a boundary maybe you should just respect that boundary instead of sacrificing yourself for the sake of answering my question

what do you think about that I mean I'm very curious but like that's my curiosity, right? Because it's like... I mean, I wouldn't say anything that I'm uncomfortable with. I am comfortable with talking to you about this stuff now because it's all of that stuff's in the past. I'm talking about this from like a past tense sort of thing. Okay. Like in the past, talking about this would have been like really tough. And it's still tough now, but I'm not afraid to talk about it anymore. Before I would have been afraid to talk about it.

So let me ask you explicitly before we can. continue. Do you feel like talking about this would be lowering your boundary or violating an internal boundary that you want to hold for the sake of the interview or the content or whatever? Like, you know, because I don't want to fall into that same pattern. No, because I'm not going to like, no names or anything. I'm like, I'm not going to get 100% detail, just what I'm comfortable. But, um, so my ex-girlfriend, I, you know, I, you know, I liked her, right? And the stream didn't like her. I don't know if you've ever seen these sort of relationships before. But so for the first six months or so of dating this girl, my viewers would just shit on me

constantly for six months, nonstop, shit on me, shit on her, shit on anything I did, everyone around her because they didn't like her. That's not who they wanted me to date. That's who I wanted to date. That's not who they wanted me to date. So, but, and this was the first time I've defied, I defied my viewers. I dated this girl. And I didn't care what the viewer said. And that caused my life to be a living fucking hell for six or seven months. How so?

What's that? How so? I mean, the viewers would, you know, I mean, they would just, yeah, like the chat, the dislikes, the Reddit, everything. They would just say, fuck you, ice, your fucking piece of shit. you're dating this person. This person's fucking awful. Fuck, fuck you,

like they just didn't like who I was dating so they lashed out at me constantly, which made all my streams awful because I'm not going to be able to be happy and positive on stream

if I'm getting my whole chat shitting on me and my whole community shitting on me. So it'd be a constant battle between me and my community of me defending myself and if I want to date this person,

I can date this person and then my chat saying, fuck you, You can't date this fucking person. It was just a bad, toxic situation, an environment that I was in. So instead of, and I tried really hard to hold my own and hold my gut for seven months. I just couldn't take it anymore. So what I ended up doing was hiding the relationship for my viewers.

And this is where I got really bad, dude, because now I'm living a fucking, like a second life. I have my stream life where my viewers think I'm single. And then I have my actual life where I'm going and I'm seeing this girl. And I live in constant fear of getting spotted in public with her of just whatever, you know? So that relationship ended up going really, really bad and turning very bad because of me. You know, it's not her fault. It's because of me. I literally was afraid to leave the house with her.

So it ended up turning into a very just not a good relationship, dude. Very, I started treating her poorly because I was, you know, just not like poorly as in calling her names and stuff. I treat her poorly as in, if we're going to leave the house, you have to put a hood on and like a mask and shit. Like it's just, I was just scared, bro. And it just wasn't good. and then my viewers eventually found out that I was dating her and let me tell you that was just awful

it was I mean she got completely harassed I got completely harassed and I made such a dumb fucking mistake of just completely just I mean I like threw under the bus dude I'm like oh I'm not dating her because I didn't know what to do and I was so upset

and so like worried about just losing the viewers and being alone again, I just, you know, I just did really, really, made some really bad mistakes. I, you know, and I lost her respect. I lost the viewers respect.

I lost everyone's fucking respect. You know, the viewers were upset because I was hiding this relationship for like seven months. My ex-girlfriend, obviously, you know, thought it was fucking bullshit and unfair to her, which it clearly was.

and I was just, yeah, just bad, bad moves all around. And then after that, of course, it just was never the same. My viewers just treated me like shit and had no respect for me for so long until my red, until I close my Reddit. What do you think about that? I mean, I made a mistake, you know, I made mistakes. I should have never dropped the boundaries between me and my viewers. It was, it only led to bad things. Nothing good came from it.

Because in hindsight, I think the viewers would have still watched me with the boundaries. I didn't need to drop those boundaries. I just did because I was scared. Like, I cultivated this abusive relationship between me and my viewers. And that's not what I meant to do. I was just trying to grow our bond by doing that. I'll be the only streamer to let the viewers come into his house and whatever. But it got toxic because the viewers.

wanted full control and they wanted, you know, and I can't, I'm not a robot. I live my own life too. Well, I can, I can kind of see. It's, it's really interesting to hear you because you know how you were saying that, that we were talking about apology. Uh-huh. And how you, because you do explicitly own up to a lot of this. You say, you know, it was my fault, my mistake. I did this. I did this. I cultivated this abusive relationship. You know, it's kind of interesting because I can see what you're saying. It's almost like a, this too has been kind of an evolution of you being judged over and over and over again. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I mean, I'm just, I think where this like, where it comes from, me like constantly trying to own up the stuff is the Reddit would always say I'm not owning up to anything. And now this is kind of interesting because I'm beginning to understand, I think, why they think you don't own up to things. I know this is going to sound kind of weird. I guess even as I hear you explain things, there's a part of me that feels some degree of doubt. And I was really surprised by that. What do you mean? Well, so like there's something actually, I know it sounds kind of weird, dude, so I'm just going to be straight.

There's something about what you're saying that feels very BS like to me. Okay. And then I got really confused because I was like he's clearly owning a. up to things. He's clearly taking responsibility for it. He recognizes he makes mistakes. He's gotten, he's become very insightful. So why is my BS meter going off a little bit? Does that make sense? It does. And, and so I want to share something with you. And I wonder if actually if this has something to do with, you know, whether you have Asperger's or not in sort of the way that you've learned to apologize. Because I do think that there are a couple of things that are kind of

interesting about your apologies. One, is that you tend to own up to something, and then you say because, and then you cite a negative emotion that was controlling you. So you're like, I cultivated this abusive relationship because I was afraid. Does that construction make sense?

Yeah. 100% owning a mistake because negative emotion. And I think you've got to be careful about that, because while I can completely understand that that's true, I think if I say, oh, yeah, you know, I hit my dog because I was angry. And so it's like, yeah, that can be true. But when you sort of like cite a negative emotion is controlling you,

I think there's a sense of like absolving yourself of responsibility there. It's not you. It was the fear that made you do it. The fear made me do it. the fear made me do it. The fear made me do it. And I can understand that 100% because I think that's actually how human beings work. But I'm just sort of sharing that with you because I think that that may, you know, is it you or is it the fear? Like what's really responsible here? What do you think? I mean, yeah, the fear comes from me. So when I say fear, I just, you know, that's like,

that's me. Like, I'm the fear, you know? Well, so yeah, yeah, the reason, what's, what's, your understanding of why I'm sharing this with you? I mean, you're saying that I'm just bad at apologies. Honestly, I'm glad that that's the way that you interpret it, because what I was afraid of is that you would interpret what I was saying is like, I'm calling BS. I don't think you're bad at apologies. I think that you have a particular way of apologizing, which I was trying to figure out, like, why do people judge you so harshly? Like, what's going on there? Because I think that's a little bit of a two-way relationship as well. You know, because clearly, like,

you're owning up to what you've done, right? Like, I'm not getting the sense that you're, you know, in denial or anything. But so that then the question becomes, if you're not in denial, then what, you know, why do people react to you this way? And even more shockingly, why do I feel like reacting to you in that way, right? It's like, what the, you know? Because the guy's like, clearly like, he's like, you know, I threw people under the bus, like, I shouldn't have done this. Like, I lowered my boundaries. That was a mistake. Like, I was afraid of losing. It sounds like very insightful. Um, you know, it sounds like, you've kind of paid attention a lot and you've done a lot of reflection.

How would I apologize without saying it's the negative emotions because, I mean, I didn't do it for no reason. Yeah, so that's a good question. So, I mean, so let me explain something to you. Like, like, what are you sorry for something? I mean, I'm sorry for the, you know, the people I threw under the bus. Yeah, but I'm not really sorry for. the cultivation of that, you know, of the toxic community that I made because I'm past that now. And it was affecting me the most. Who am I going to apologize to myself? I mean, I guess I,

it's not the toxic community that made me, like, throw people under the bus. So I'm not going to apologize for that in particular. I just apologize. Like, it's my own actions that did that because I was going through so much intense things. And there I said the because again, but... You see that? You were doing great until you said the because. So if... And I think...

I know it sounds kind of weird, but like, I think in a weird way, like, you not apologizing for a piece of it felt very authentic to me. You know, like... Because, you know, and this is subtle, but, like, you say, I made a mistake. I haven't heard you say, I'm sorry.

Right? So I think that's the other thing that people may be sniffing out is BS and part of the reason that you get judged. Because if you're not sorry for something, Paul, I think you should just own up to it. And that felt authentic. Like, I'm with you 100%. If you're like, I screwed up, but I don't regret it for a minute. The only thing that I regret is that while I was screwing up, I threw some people under the bus and that wasn't fair to them. That sounds very authentic. That doesn't set off my BS meter. But when you say, I made a mistake, I made a mistake. Now I'm sort of picking up another piece because you're not sorry. and generally speaking, we assume that people who make mistakes are sorry that they made mistakes, but you're not sorry. So that makes perfect sense now. I don't blame you for it. I mean,

I'm like a weird way. I'm kind of glad it all happened because I have learned a lot. Like, if I didn't go through this, I wouldn't have like, I don't know, dude. I would just be so skewed in perspective to so many things because, you know,

I went from sheltered, to 20,000 viewers, if I never had any of those experiences and everything was just positive, I would just be a fucking skewed person. I don't know. Like, I needed to get perspective somewhere, right? Yeah. And, you know, unfortunately, I went through it the really intense ways. But so be it, you know?

Yeah. So that feels very authentic to me. So be it feels far more. Because I don't really hear you. I think I get what. So, Paul, do you get that I'm sharing this with you because I'm hoping that we can get some insight into, you know, how you put your words together and how people respond to them? That's why I'm sure. I'm not trying to, like, call you out or anything like that.

Are you getting that sense? Yeah. Okay. And if people are, you know, end up watching this, I don't want them to, you know, the last thing that I'd want to do is reignite all of your haters. I think it's, in a weird way, this, this, I'm having this conversation with you in the same way that I was having the conversation with. you about feelings, which is, and like, you know, how you talk to your girlfriend about how certain conversations are hard for you. It's just for us to recognize that when we communicate in a certain way, why do we set people off? Like, because I think there's something about you, Paul, that

that is interesting because you say, I made a bunch of mistakes, but if you don't feel sorry, I think that's going to really frustrate a lot of people. Because what they're here, yeah. It's also, I don't know. It's just, yeah, the sorry. thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, I'm just not good with like expressing my emotions, as I said earlier. So it just, yeah, it comes off weird. I can, I know. Yeah, I think there's a little bit of a disconnect because most people, when someone says I made a mistake and it was my fault, empathically, they expect an emotion of I'm sorry with that. But I don't get, I don't get that from you. Yeah, I get, no, that's, you know, now that you think about it,

That's probably why any time I've ever cried on stream, I just had a terrible response, except for the first time. The first time was authentic ever, the one on Twitch, than the ones on YouTube, like when I was crying because I wanted to date someone else, but I went on this other girl's date for content. Like, I wasn't really sorry. I just said that because I, you know, the viewers were supposed to be controlling me. So, you know, but I can see why they totally did not accept that apology. it was like, I just, yeah,

I was just confused, bro. Yeah, no, I think Paul, to be honest, I mean, you know,

people who have something on the autism spectrum, I think what I'm hearing from your story, like, and I don't really know, you know, if there's more to say, but basically when I, when I hear this,

I think it's just a, it's a perfect storm of a lot of different things, man. You know, can I just share some thoughts with you? Yeah. So to begin with,

like, that, you know, what I'm hearing is that you grew up and like stuff was hard, right? Because like people didn't know what to do with you and like people didn't really understand you and like you felt it sounds to me like you felt alone growing up really for lack. And that's, you know, and so then, you know, Twitch came along and I think that like Twitch is amazing because it's it's sort of a way for people who are misfits, a way for misfits to fit in. I think that's one of the biggest things that Twitch has done

for our society in terms of like allowing people for this connection. And so you started streaming there. I think your class clown came out a little bit. But then as you kind of pointed out, you know, it also sounds like you, you know, you got that validation. And it was kind of validation in sort of the wrong direction that like anything to not be alone. And I totally get that. I can understand why, you know, if you get, if you're the victim of something like a sexual

assault or bullying or things like that. And if everyone around you calls you a snitch and you have to transfer schools and go sit in a classroom by yourself when you're like clearly the victim, you know, I can understand how that leaves a hunger for like acceptance, a hunger for friendship, like a hunger for like something. And then along comes the internet. And then all of these things that you grew up as like you don't have to be anymore. You can be someone who talks to people. You don't have to be someone with Asperger's. You can just be social. You can have lots of friends and you can be funny and people can appreciate you and you can appreciate them. I think there's a lot of, I mean, there must have been a lot of just genuine goodness to your content, too.

I'm not saying it was wholesome, but like there must have been like good times and solid laughs and like a lot of like, you know, hanging out, you know, I mean. And and so that's sort of like, and then you had this sort of like high of everyone, you know, like liking you. you. And this is where I'd say from a spiritual perspective, I don't know if we have time for this now, right? I don't think we do. But I think that there's another element of ego or the Sanskrit word is Ahamkar, which is the sense of I. So your sense of identity of who you become and who you want to be that I think is sort of active here. And then then something weird happens. I think it sounds like you sort of cultivated a particular kind of person in your chat, which I totally get because I'm at. imagine had I been a little bit younger and was watching Twitch chat more religiously, I probably would have wound up in your community. I have a huge inner troll. You know, I really get it. And so, and then you got banned a couple times. You got a band a couple more times. And then there was this kind of SWAT thing where, and I do think you sort of let, it sounds like you went, you kind of like let caution go for a while there. And, you know, whatever happened, happened. And then really, really, when you got banned from Twitch, you were sort of like, I'm getting a sense of like, you know, desperation and fear, really, that all this stuff was going to be taken away. And like, you'd pay any price to hang on to it.

Any price. And was it the wrong thing to do to completely destroy your boundaries and let randos, like, show up at your place, like, undoubtedly? At the same time, I think it's very authentic for you to say that actually sounds like you don't regret it. No, I mean, I had a lot of good. I mean, I know we're talking about the bad experiences, but I had a lot of good ones, too. Dude, I have met thousands and thousands of fans at my doorstep. And, you know, most of them are cool.

And most of them I resonate with really a lot. It's only the couple situations where they're like fucking crazy people or something. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I've had people come, like, crying to me. Like, they, like, let me move in with you. You are my God. And they're crying. have to say no, you cannot move in with me.

And then he's post the conversation. He was recording the conversation. He posted on Reddit and we're on Reddit shitting on me. Let this guy live with you. He's your, you're his God. And I just have to say no. And then, you know, those are the bad situations. But most of the situations were good.

Yeah. And so then we kind of get to where you are now, which is where are you now, Paul? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I stream on YouTube to, uh, you know, smaller audience than 20,000, but I'm happy with it, bro. Like, honestly, I mean, obviously 20,000 was nice, but it's not worth like the, it just wasn't worth what I had to go through. Like, I had this, this project that I was doing in L.A. This was the final straw.

2019, I had this project I was doing. I was going to start this, like, streamer house. And, you know, my viewers wanted. be to move in a trailer park instead of a house and I said no because that you know I don't want to live in a fucking trailer and stream from it um and uh you know yeah they they ruined the project that i had they had investors and you know they pulled out because the viewers were getting too crazy when you know they were doxing the investors and shit they were just so pissed at me yeah they were so pissed at me that they wanted to do anything to ruin this project that i had been working towards

for over a year now because, you know, getting investors is not an easy task and like getting like a whole like a bunch of employees and it was just a long process, right? So that got ruined. And I said, all right, fuck this. I closed my Reddit down. I got it banned. You know, other Reddit started opening up, you know, for like people trying to still be in part of my community. Those got banned. And I moved to Texas, got away from California. I just started like a new fucking, so like a new life, bro. And I'd stop streaming for a little bit, streamed on mixer for almost a year. I'm back on YouTube. And I had to stop streaming and go to mixer to get rid of the, like I just had to take time off, bro, because these fucking people, bro, they just wouldn't,

like, they're just like obsessive. Like, when you let people control your life, you do get a certain type of viewer, like you said. And these type of viewers, it's hard to get rid of them. So I took some time off. And now my viewers, they're very nice. They respect my boundaries. I like them. And yeah, I mean, I'm very happy right now with where I am streaming.

Cool. Well, I'm happy for you. Thank you. It's been tough, though. It's, bro, it was. Sounds like it, dude. 2019 when I was taking time off, bro, it wasn't easy, dude. I had like an ego death because I had to re-identify myself from this like persona to like, I just want to be me now.

I don't want to be a persona, you know? Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me because I'm, and I'm also really happy to hear that actually because it sounds like your ego was really out of control for a while. I, yeah, I, I just, yeah, I've lost a little bit of who I was, like, as a person and completely became this, you know, like, fucking Frankenstein my viewers were making. Yeah. Yeah. I hate to say it that way because it's not, like, it is still my fault. The viewers aren't the ones who, like, made that.

But I put myself in the situation to allow them to make that. Yeah. I see what you're saying. I think, I mean, I'm not here to play judge in terms of who was at fault and who wasn't. That's not really, I mean, I think, you know, I will, judgment is for God if you believe in it yourself and the internet. And it's not something that I am interested in. I think, from my perspective, Paul, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I think it's been really fascinating. I hope that, you know, especially sort of like some of this communication stuff. I think that it's interesting that a lot of people take it for granted, but there is kind of like a stepwise process to learn how to communicate. I think sometimes we've got to be really careful because there are patterns in our communication, like the way that you own up to your mistakes, but it's not really an apology that I think that you would, it's actually the same principle as sort of talking to your girlfriend, which is like just state how you really feel about things. Hey, I really want to talk to you, but I'm not really able to because it like brings up a lot.

of negative emotion. And I want to work on this, but I just can't handle it right now. And I'm really confused about what to do about that. You know, because I'm hearing almost the same degree of like sort of conflicting stuff, which unless you state it out for people can be confusing for them. So on the one hand, it was terrible. And I felt like I was in a toxic abusive relationship. But on the other hand, it was like also super hype.

You know, I, my ego was through the roof. I was loving it. I was loving being this person who went from 100 viewers to 20,000 viewers. And it was amazing. And then I was also afraid. And I let these people do things to my life. But I also let them do it, you know? And I felt like I lost control.

And at the end of the day, it sounds like really the only thing you're sorry for is the other people who got caught up in it. Right. And kind of suffered because of your choices. and it sounds like you're actually grateful that, I mean, I don't know, grateful may be a strong word, but that you don't regret what happened to you because it's made you the person that you are today and that you had like, you know, a pretty narrow sliver of what your experience of life is. And like now it's like a huge pie of like just all of these different experiences. Good, bad, crazy, hype, fun, you know, walking, like waking up and like,

ando's being in your living room, like that sounds absolutely insane. Yeah. Dude. Yeah. My experience, bro, I have so many different perspectives. It's amazing. Yeah. And so I think the last thing that I'll kind of leave you with is I'm glad you've kind of had something like an ego death because I heard the ego when you, because this is the ego when it's like I'm going to be the only streamer who dot dot dot.

That's ego. Right. I want to be the only one. That's not about your viewers. it's not about making good content. If you're interested in being the only whatever, that's about you. And so good luck to you, man. It's been absolute pleasure.

Really appreciate your authenticity and just share your story. Yeah. One question. Yeah, of course. Because I do feel, and I've always felt insecure about this. but then you brought it up because my viewers used to say it all the time too the ego thing

hopefully you don't see that in me at the moment or currently because I've tried hard to try to ground myself yeah so let's talk about that for just a second so I think that I think you're on the right road for sure Paul and like you said like that that kind of identity crisis

that you went through in 2019, I think was probably very healthy for you. I think, but I think part of the reason why people see ego, I don't think it's actually ego. I think it's just your way of communicating, which is like when you say something like, you know, I made this mistake because of the fear,

that's going to come across as egotistical to people. Like it's going to come across to people as saying like, oh, it wasn't my fault. It was like my emotions, which I know it sounds weird, but it's true. And also, like, people are going to judge you for being egotistical. I think the only real ego that I share with you the statement that I thought was egotistical, which was the one where I want to be the only streamer who dot, dot, dot.

That's really, like, the only thing that I thought was explicitly ego. Now, I mean, there may have been way more ego before, but I'm not getting a whole lot of that now. Does that sound okay that I mean said that? Do you feel reassured when I say that? Yeah, I just wanted to, I was just insecure because I just don't want to, I just hope, I was just hoping I wasn't coming off as like, egotistical or something. So the other tricky thing, Paul, that I should be more careful about. This is a mistake on mine, and I'm sorry for that, is that I use the term ego is really a translation of the Sanskrit term Ahamkara, which is the I feeling or the identity. And so what I'm sort of talking about is not necessarily that you were like egotistical, but that you had an identity, right?

Like this is, if we think about Paul growing up, Paul was lonely. Paul was riding the short bus. Paul was all of these things. And then you have Ice Poseidon, who thousands of cool people show up at your door to hang out with you. Both of those are ego. They're both a sense of who you are.

And neither of them is truly who you are. Those are both identities. Those are both ego. So when I say ego, I'm referring to actually both of those things. There are constructions of the mind about who we are. But that's not really who you are.

Like, I know it sounds weird, but I mean, who you are is like if you close your eyes for a second. It's like, can you feel your existence? Yeah. Like, that's who you are. Right?

You're not Paul. You're not Is Poseidon. You're none of those things. All you are is like, if the world ceased to exist, right, stuck you in a time capsule and put you in like, you know, a cryogenic state for 10,000 years and you woke up and you were the last human being alive, it wouldn't matter that you're Paul. It wouldn't matter that you're ice beside. It wouldn't matter how many, you know, none.

none of that would matter. All that would be left would be like the real you. Does that sort of make sense? Yeah, it does. And so that's sort of what I was referring to. So especially if, you know, people are going to watch this and I'm going to think like, oh, like Dr. Kay thinks he's like egotistical. Like I want to clarify what I mean by that. You may be egotistical. I don't know, but. No, that's a good way. That's a good way to put it. Thank you so much. Thank you, man. This has been great. You know, I've heard a lot about you, but it's, it's been great to actually. we talk to you. I try to steer clear of, you know, what people say. But I still, you know, the reason we're doing this interview, I was like, oh, like, I guess we're not doing it on Twitch.

Our folks are like, yeah, we can't, you can't do it on Twitch. Well, at least we can't do video about it. And hopefully someone can learn something from my experience. So I certainly hope so. And I really appreciate you being willing to come on, especially given all the hate that you've experienced. Um, you know, I, hopefully. nothing bad comes of this. And, you know, if something bad does happen and please let us know so that we can try to support you if we can. Okay. Yeah, for sure, man. All right, take care, dude. All right. Thanks a lot, man. See you later.