HealthyGamerGG - I’m Afraid to Move Forward, What Do I Do?

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

Dr. K dives into fear of misunderstanding, uncertainty, guilt, disappointment, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And this is where people are like, yeah, I'd rather drive an 80s Mazda than a Ferrari as long as I can live with myself every day and I enjoy going to work. Because I've worked with people who drive the Ferrari instead of the 80s Mazda. And what I hear from them uniformly is I wish I had made a career change 10 or 15 years ago. Because I'm sure I'm driving a Ferrari, but like I don't really care about it. It doesn't bring me fulfillment. What do you go by? I'm Chris. Nice to meet you, Chris.

And we're going to be talking about career stuff today, right? Yes. Yes, I am. Welcome, buddy. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I just say that you're my hero. Okay.

So, yeah. All right. Well, yay, I guess. Do you want to talk about career stuff or you want to talk about heroes? Sure. No, career stuff would be good. Okay. So tell me, how's your career going?

How's your job going? So I've been doing marketing for like five to six years. Okay. And I've been hating it a lot. Okay. I've been building startups here and there. I've been making financial startups, startups for universities,

and startups for students and stuff like that. But I've never really clicked that I like it. And I've grown to detested over the years. Because I've detested that. My coping mechanism is quite weird, but I have these side projects where I try to listen to people more and really listen to myself

in which hoping that I would understand which career I will like. So basically I've been trying to be like a side psychologist for my friends, like a therapist for five to six years. And I've been loving that. And the last eight months have been the toughest because I had really had to decide where I had to like to go. So I chose to drop all my businesses in like a week.

And then I'm enrolling myself to a psychology university. and I just started. Cool. How do you feel about that? It feels scary. It feels anxiety-inducing. What's scary about it? I'm afraid of...

So there's this idea that the first five to six years of my life, of my career life, was the idea that I'm making the foundations for my future, making startups, working in companies as a marketing intern, sometimes a marketing personnel. And then suddenly I just dropped it all. in less than a week. The decision was like in less than a week. I'm not so sure if I'm going to make it.

I'm so afraid that I'm so afraid with the idea that I'm not going to make it as a therapist. Okay. What does not making it as a therapist mean to you? Okay. So I've been, um, the last two months I've been making, um, a support thread in HG's community and HG's, um, Discord server where I receive call-ins from people, which I don't diagnose or. treat them or coach them or anything, all I do is just listen.

Okay. Like the way you would teach everyone in Twitch how to listen to really, like, reflect. And sometimes there are some people from the United States or people who are really fluent in English in which I can't really understand how to speak better. So I'm really afraid if I'm not going to be able to like understand people. That's my worst fear. Okay. And becoming a therapist.

I don't mind not being able to help people. but I am very afraid of not being to understand people. So that makes sense. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. So what I'm hearing is that you try to support people on the internet and some of your interactions with those people have made it, have started to create doubt in your mind that, hey, if I can't help these people,

what if that means that I can't help people as a psychologist or a therapist? Exactly. So I think that this is going to be, you know, maybe a rare situation where, I don't know that this is a deep psychological exploration. I think that this may actually have a very simple answer. We'll see how this answer sits with you. Okay. So the first thing to understand is that when you're in a therapist, when you're a therapist or psychologist, there's, there are things that are very, very, very different about that from talking to a stranger on the internet. And I think this is where if you fail to help people who are strangers on the internet, that has so much to do.

with the way in which you're interacting with them and very little similarity to what a psychologist or therapist does. Sure. And so oddly enough, like, I'm not surprised that you run into trouble trying to help people on the internet

because I think, first of all, there's no longitudinal relationship. So success as a therapist or psychologist tends to involve a longitudinal relationship. Now, there are other places in which we have longitudinal relationships, right? So like,

for example, we can have friends, we can have gaming buddies, things like that. So even if I struggle with friendships, it doesn't mean that I'm not going to be a good therapist. The other thing is that it sounds like you've learned a lot kind of on your own, but you actually haven't gone through formal education. No. Right? So if I like want to be a chef and I'm afraid that I'm not going to be making good food, but I haven't started culinary school yet, like that's kind of valid, right? So oddly enough, I think part of what's going on here is that, you know,

as you go through your formal education process, because remember, the goal of the education is to teach you how to be successful as a therapist. But you haven't done that yet. So I personally am not concerned. Because I think helping people on the internet is like kind of a grab bag, because a lot of times there are all kinds of things that could be going on. And listening is often not sufficient to help people. It's a great place to start. But as a therapist and as a psychologist, you're going to learn so much more than listening. So what I'm sort of seeing you do is sort of like you're making an assessment, which is kind of fair because it's your experience, but it's like you haven't been trained in this stuff. You've really only learned step one. It's like, I'm teaching you how to

turn on the oven, but you're like, I don't know how to bake a cake yet. And it's like, yeah, that's because all I've taught you is how to turn on the oven. So I think there's some basic communication skills that we try to teach. And the reason we teach those basic communication skills is because they're, you know, do therapists learn those skills? Yes. But these are skills that all human beings should understand in terms of communication. And as you go through formal education for therapy or psychology or whatever, you're going to learn way more than what we teach. What do you think about that?

How does that sit with you? Kind of makes me more afraid. Okay. Because the idea that if listening, like the thing that I really understand in a therapist's job is to 80% of the job is to listen. If I can't do that, then what am I going to do? Where do you get the idea that 80%? percent of the job, the therapist's job is to listen. Well, I, I, I, right, okay. I've been in a therapist's

office, I guess, and I've seen you interview people, so that's my main idea. Okay. So you've been in therapy yourself. Yes. And your therapist listens to you a lot, right? Yes. What do you think, when they're not speaking, what do you think they're doing? Diagnostic assessments. Sort of, right? So I would say that most of the therapist's job, we are listening when we're doing therapy, but actually I'd say most of our job is thinking. What do you think about that? That makes me feel safe, I guess, because I like thinking a lot, yeah. I know, yeah. Yeah, so I think, Chris, what I'm hearing from you is that you're someone who's learned how to be a good listener, but really to understand what a therapist does, it's like, we're thinking a lot, right? So even as I'm talking to you, I'm listening to what you're saying,

maybe it'll help if I share with you what's going on in my mind. Okay. So like I'm trying to figure out, okay, is this fear that you have like appropriate or inappropriate? Is it developmentally appropriate? And what I mean by developmentally appropriate is there are like some fears that if I've never been on a date before and I've never had a significant other before, if I've never been in a committed romantic relationship, it's developmentally appropriate for me to be afraid of that. Does it mean that there's something wrong with me? Absolutely not. In fact, it's a normal part of the developmental process. So I'm also sort of thinking a little bit about, like, as I'm listening to you, I'm also thinking about, okay, like, we talked a lot about

about marketing at the beginning or marketing has been your background. Is the fear that you experience now somehow related to marketing? Or is the fear that you experience a somscar that has to do with your own fear of uncertainty? Are there other things that I could ask you about? Like, for example, how much of this fear is you've invested five or six years and now you've given up everything that you've invested. And now you're like going all in on becoming a psychologist. What if you're a bad psychologist too? Then what? Then like you've given up all this career and now you're like eight years down the road. You've given up your career. You're a bad psychologist. Like now what do you do? Oh my God, you're screwed. Does that any of that resonate with you? Like I think about that

every day really for the past month. So here's the question, Chris. The consequence of you giving up a career in marketing and pursuing psychology and being bad at it is huge. Like it's going to cost you a lot. But just because it's going to cost you a lot doesn't mean that you're, that has nothing to do with whether you're good or bad at it. Does that make sense? If you're bad at it, you're screwed. We have no idea whether you're good about it. Exactly. And that makes it very scary, right? Yeah. So I think that that's developmentally appropriate. I think you've taken, you've taken a plunge, you've jumped off a cliff and you're not sure how you're going to land. There's a lot of certainty that I'm hearing. Exactly. What I'm seeing down there is like rocks and there,

but there's some water in it. It's just very scary, yeah. Yeah. And, and so what do we do with fear? Exactly. What do we do with fear? It's a good, what do you think? Like, is the goal to make the fear go away? No, it's to, it's to experience the fear while going towards the thing that I really want. And do you really want to be a therapist? Yes. Like, it's such a weird thing. I had this instance where, Can I tell you why I think I'm really going to be, why my passion is in there. Absolutely. Tell me. Sure.

Okay. So there's like this meeting where there's this like one room filled with CEOs, startup owners and business owners and stuff like that. And then there's just this one psychologist who's just there sitting and taking notes and talking to people. Just saying that I don't know why. got a hint that she's a clinical psychologist. And I'm more interested in talking with her than anyone in the group. And that keeps happening over and over again. So I think that's why maybe that's a stupid idea.

Do you think it's a stupid idea? I mean, logically, yes. Because I'm basically giving up a lot of money, a lot of certainty, a lot of like stability in marketing to go to be a therapist who in Indonesia, I am from Indonesia, which is a third world country. And psychologists and therapists aren't really the dream job for Indonesians. And mental health is such a big stigma here still. Giving up a Ferrari for an 80s Mazda.

Sure. Yeah. So how do you feel about that? Feel afraid. I'm constantly thinking that I'm stupid for thinking about it. I know for choosing, for loving the idea that I get to have conversations with people. every day, what's happening with them. Okay.

So what did you detest or hate about marketing? The manipulation, the idea that I need to push products, create value out of nothing to sell to people. Okay. I don't like that idea. So, Chris, I think you've got, so oddly enough, I kind of agree with you that on some level, becoming a therapist and giving up a career in marketing is stupid. And yet...

Oh, that just hurt. Yeah. I mean, because you've made a good argument, right? Sure. I still think you're doing the right thing. but kind of meet you where you're at. So I think this is where what matters, like I think what you've got to really decide

is what do you value? So I'm going to give you two choices. You can have a career that has more certainty, more money, and manipulates other people into buying stuff that they don't need, or you can have a career that you find intellectually intriguing,

fulfilling, more uncertainty, uphill battle, helping people in a country, the same reason it's a risk business to be a psychologist in Indonesia is also exactly why, like, I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're in your 20s. And so you've got to think about over 40 years. Would the world be a better place if Indonesia had a psychologist who actually cared about what they were doing and we're trying to help people who struggle with mental health problems in Indonesia?

What matters to you more? And so that's why I think it sounds like you're making the right choice. Now, is there more uncertainty? Absolutely. Is it a question mark? Absolutely. But that's where also, I think, It's like, this is your time in life, just really think about, do I want to play it safe? Or am I willing to make a risk, take a risk to make the world a better place? And also, like, I may lose out financially. Ironically, in my experience, it's people who make the choice that you made actually end up both happier and richer. Because what I tend to see is that when people hate their job, they perform underperform. And when people love their job, they overperform.

and also the lower value societally, when society thinks that a particular profession isn't worth very much, if you really care about it, you do really, really well. Like, I don't know how to say this, but like I'll share a story with you. So when I was in medical school, I was on my surgery rotation. And I did a good job on surgery. And then people towards the end of it, they were like, hey, you know, like, if you really wanted to do surgery, like you'd be really good at it, you should really consider doing surgery. And I told them and I was like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm interested in psychiatry.

And their response was, you're too smart for psychiatry. You're wasted in psychiatry. You're so smart and you're so talented that you should do something that is really going to challenge you. And that's like that surgery. And what I really found is that like that was sort of arrogant. But that oddly enough, you know, just because there's a low value profession that is not very competitive, if you're really, really strong at it and you care about it a lot, a lot, you're going to shine very brightly in that profession. Because I don't know, I mean, like, because I think that the key thing is that,

I think it is an uphill battle. And what I'm hearing from you is that there's more financial uncertainty. But like, I don't know how to say this, but something tells me in the next 20 years, psychologists are going to be valued a lot more in Indonesia than they are today. What do you think? Okay. Sure. I, yeah, it's just the, from year zero to the 20th year is going to be such a long, long time.

I was planning a year ago that I would be living off my own, probably having my own house now. probably expanding my startup and stuff like that. But now I'm stuck in my parents' house. Like, I'm not so sure what to do with that. It's stupid. It feels stupid because I'm burdening a lot of more people than weighing myself to be happier. That makes sense. Yeah.

So, Chris, what I'm hearing is that I don't know how to say this, but like, yeah, like, you know, you're taking a step back the road of life. But I think that, like, sometimes that's still the right move, right? even if you have to stay, I mean, you have to decide, like, because you're telling me that this is a job that you detested and that, you know, you hated manipulating people. So like, sure, you could have your own place, but you would still be manipulating people and detesting it every day. And I don't know how to say this, but just like from a karmic perspective, like a career shift is going to come at a cost. Is there more uncertainty? Yeah. Like, I wish I could tell you, hey, everything's great. You know, you're going to be perfect. I mean, I think you're going to, I think you're, it sounds to me like you're operating from the right principles. And this is the other. the thing about life is like we can't know what's going to happen. Like we don't know, right? Like maybe if you continue to manipulate people through marketing and you're working with all these startup CEOs, one of them does something illegal, get sent to jail, you get sent to jail. Like you have no idea what the future is going to hold. We have these assumptions that certain things are very secure

and other things are insecure. But if anything, the world has taught us anything over the last three years with like a global pandemic, it's that the world can come grinding to a halt. And so I think the reason that I'd kind of support you in your decision is, first of all, we've had clients from Indonesia, and we've heard firsthand from them how hard it is to find a good therapist or psychologist. Second thing is, I think you're operating from the right place. The tricky thing is that just because you operate from the right place does not mean that life is going to be easy, right? Are you going to be staying at home for a couple of years? Yeah. Are you going to make less money? Sure. Is there more uncertainty? Sure. When you tell people, oh, I

do marketing for this startup. And they're like, oh, like, very impressive. And then when you say, like, I'm a therapist and you live in a country where that isn't valued, they're like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, exactly. Like, my friends ask me, what's wrong with you? Yeah. Yeah, right? So, I mean, I got that stuff too when I decided to become a psychiatrist from the surgeons and also people in my family. They're like, why would you want to be a psychiatrist? You're going to go crazy. So, like, I don't know how to say this, but, you know, Chris, I can't tell you that your life is going to be easy because of your decisions. But what I can tell you is. is that if you want to live a fulfilling life,

it's not always taking the easy road and that do what aligns with you and do your best and try to make the world a better place. And I would, you know, if I was a betting man, I would say, if we talk to you five years from now, I don't think you're going to regret your decision. I see a lot more regret from people who stay in the field that they find spiritually bankrupt.

And this is where people are like, yeah, I'd rather drive an 80s Mazda than a Ferrari, as long as I can live with myself every day and I enjoy going to work. Because I've worked with people who drive the Ferrari instead of the 80s Mazda, and what I hear from them uniformly

is I wish I had made a career change 10 or 15 years ago. Because I'm sure I'm driving a Ferrari, but like, I don't really care about it. It doesn't bring me fulfillment. And that's where if material goods are very, very fulfilling to you, then that's a different story.

I think it's about values, Chris. It's about what you care about. Yeah. It's just, it's really hard to cope to, it's really hard to understand how to cope living, the day-to-day basis. That's the hardest.

What's hard on a day-to-day basis? Hold on. I'm not, like, I feel guilty a lot towards my parents. They have to pay again for my tuition. And I have to keep living off them in which they had more plans for themselves. But I have to pull them back again. And it feels like I can't, I'm really proud of what I'm trying to achieve of myself. But when I put myself in society or like in with friend groups or with big family gatherings

or stuff like that, that kind of makes me shameful. Yeah. To to to burden my parents so much. That's what I feel like from the career change. Yeah. No, I don't know how to cope with that. Have you talked to your parents about it? Yes.

And they keep, I, I'm trying to like really talk to them about it. But they keep reassuring, yeah, it's okay. Like it doesn't feel okay. because sometimes I can't like feel their disappointment almost. That's what I'm feeling. Okay. Okay to disappoint them? Not okay at all.

Oh, feelings, emotions. Hello. Hold on. Because I failed a lot. I failed a lot. Yeah. By trying to go to marketing, like I, I tried to like abolish the failures that I did from when I was in high school. And when I was in when I was trying to apply for universities.

I applied when I was in high school, I applied to 50 French universities. I worked hard a lot, and then I failed. And I spent like eight months there, and I had to go home because no universities would. Because of my bad French for some reason. But I hasted all of them. Okay. And yeah, yeah. I'm sorry it got emotional.

It's okay. I think we're learning a couple of things. You failed, right? A bunch of time. In order to, and failure comes with negative emotions. Sure. And as you start acting in a. a way to make the negative emotions go away, right? To abolish the failure, make up from the failure,

you wind up in marketing. It's also my choice. It's a dumb choice six years ago. Sure. Let's table that for a second. But what I'm kind of, what I'm hurt, what I heard from you is that you experienced some degree of failure and you had to make up for it. And so you chose marketing. And then as you started working in marketing, did you feel less like a failure? Kind of, yeah. Okay, good. So you started, you started to take actions. to make yourself to fix feelings. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Right? Because if I feel like a failure, oh, I can do marketing and look like I'm in a room with a bunch of CEOs. I'm no longer a failure. With me? Yep. So what you've managed to do is try to do certain things that make you feel less bad. And where did that get you?

And are you happy with where you are? Uh-uh. No. Okay. So sometimes we are so afraid of negative feelings that we will do whatever we can to make them go away. And in doing so, we oftentimes trap ourselves. Because then what happens is like you can't experience that shame or feeling of failure or whatever.

So you're going to make actions so you never feel that way. It's a protective mechanism. But in doing so, what you're actually doing is you're letting that fear of failure dictate your life. Does that make sense? Kind of, yeah. What do you understand about that and what do you not understand about that? I get that I'm trying to like feel something, overcompensate something. think that's the right word. I get that. I'm trying to do that. But I never felt like it was the

wrong choice. Sure. And to start and when I'm doing it. Absolutely. It's not going to feel like the wrong choice because how do we know what's the wrong choice and what's the right choice based on our emotions? That's our first answer, right? If I do something and I feel like a failure, that's the wrong choice. If I do something else and I don't feel like a failure, that's the right choice. And so you've picked a career to avoid feeling like a failure. But avoiding the emotion of feeling, avoiding an emotion of shame is not a good strategy to live a fulfilling life. This is where things get tricky. Does that make sense? Like if I'm trying to avoid feeling ashamed of myself, so let's say I feel ashamed when I go to a party because I'm short. I'm like five foot two.

And everyone else is like five foot six or five foot seven. I feel ashamed of myself. So what can I do? to avoid that shame. I just never go to a party. And that feels good over the course of that day, because if I go to the party, I feel ashamed of myself. If I don't go to the party, I don't feel ashamed of myself. Easy, right? I just avoid the party. Sometimes we see this in careers too, where like you felt like a failure, so you've got to make up for it. And then you start living this life to try to look good in other people's eyes and feel good about yourself. And you do that for five or six years, and then you end up kind of where you are, which is that you recognize that you picked a profession that feels like unethical in some way.

It doesn't resonate with who you are as a person. You're not helping anyone. You don't find the work quite as interesting. And in fact, you're even a little bit afraid that you could be manipulating people in the wrong direction. But you get to hold your head up high. You get to move out from your parents' place.

You get to drive a Ferrari. So what's more important to you, Chris? This may sound weird, but I guess not being disappointed, not disappointing my parents. Like, that really is. is a very important thing for me. Absolutely. So now we get to something else.

So you ask your parents, am I disappointing you? What do they say? No, no, it's fine. Everything's good. You're good. Okay, so let's take two scenarios. And you don't believe them, right?

Mm-hmm. Okay. So let's take two scenarios. In two alternate universes, one universe, your parents are disappointed in you. And in another universe, they're not disappointed in you.

In the universe that they are disappointed in you, what are they going to say? Are they going to tell you they're disappointed? I don't think so. No, they're going to say, no, no, no, no, no, Chris, it's okay. We love you. We're not disappointed. And in the universe where they're not disappointed and they actually are okay with it, what are they going to say? No, no, no, Chris, you're okay. Absolutely. They're going to say the same damn thing. So how are you supposed to know which one is real? Exactly. How do I know? Right? So my point is that they may not actually be

disappointed in you, but there's no way that you're going to know. Because even if they tell you, they're not disappointed in you, you're not willing to believe them. So how are they, ever supposed to convey to you. Actually, Chris, this is okay. So why do human beings do this? It's because you're disappointed in yourself. So if I think I'm ugly and the world tells me, no, no, no, you look fine. I don't believe them. So concretely, I mean, I think you've got a fair amount of work. So, you know, for what it's worth, I think it's fine that you decided to move into psychology. I think it's great. I think it's a wonderful profession. I think hopefully you'll be helping people in a couple of years. I think if you enjoy the work and it resonates, like if you care about being the psychologist in the

room of CEOs. And by the way, that also is like respectable, right? Because now we have psychologists and rooms with CEOs and executives and other people are recognizing the value of psychology. But I think you've got some work ahead of you, which is like to really think a little bit about, you know, your own feelings of disappointment and failure. And I could tell you all kinds of stuff like, as a parent, you recognize that your children are going to make mistakes. That it's your job as a parent to support your kids when they make mistakes. That as a parent, you're actually okay. with them living with you for a year or two if it makes them happy. Like, what are your parents want? They want you to be happy. They want you to be safe. They want you to be secure. I would not be

happy if my kids were driving around Ferraris and were miserable every day. If someone came and asked me, hey, would you be willing to delay your retirement plans by two years if it means that your child was happy with their career for the rest of their life? I'd be like, damn straight. I'd take that trade any day of the week. What do you think? really thought about it that way, I guess so, yeah. Right, so I just, how, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, how do I deal with my own disappointment towards myself, I guess? Okay, good question. So a couple of things. The first is you can have more of a conversation with your parents. So when you ask them, are you disappointed in me and they say, what do they say? No, no, it's fine. Everything's good.

Why are you asking this again? And what do you say? Well, it's just, I usually get angry. like, yeah, just listen to me for a bit and just like really listen, you know, like, tell me. Oh, no, I mean, let me convey my feelings and they're like, what is it again? What is it? What's there left to convey? Okay. So I think there are a couple of things which are unfortunate, which is that Western cultures are increasingly what we call psychologically minded, whereas my experience of people in Southeast Asia,

East Asia, South Asia, Africa, you know, we don't, it's kind of confusing. like my parents, like thoughts and emotions are kind of confusing. Like even now when I talk to the generation above me, they actually don't know the difference between a thought and an emotion. Like if I were to ask one of my aunts or uncles or one of my friend's parents, what are you feeling right now? They would not be able to answer that question. They would tell me what they're thinking,

but they like literally don't know how to detect a particular emotion. If I pointed out to them, they can recognize it. But so there's just a, there's like a cultural gap and understanding gap there. Second thing to consider is that I would ask your parents, why aren't you disappointed? Have you ever asked them that? Right. Yeah. I haven't. No. Right. So like I feel disappointed in myself. Can you help me understand why you aren't disappointed? Like how do you understand like what's going on in my life? Like when you see me like what do you think my difficulties are, you know, do you think I'm doing a good job? Do you think I'm doing a bad job? And the last thing that I'd say is, you know, how do you deal with the disappointment? And I don't know how else to say this is someone who, you know, you know, I mean, I haven't asked you how old you are, but, you know, I'm guessing mid to late 20s, ish. Yeah, 24. Okay, okay. So, I mean, you're starting your career, you're starting your education as a psychologist at the age of 24, right? So, and I started my career, I started my education as a medical doctor at the age of 27 or 28. I turned 28 like one month after I started med school.

And what I can tell you being on the other side is it's like absolutely worth it. And it's actually okay to feel like a failure. It's okay to be disappointed in yourself. And like, it's okay to not know how to live life right at the beginning. And it takes us a while to figure things out. And sometimes we make mistakes. But it's through mistakes that we understand things. And as we understand things, as we start to struggle ourselves and overcome our struggles, doesn't happen right way, it's that understanding which when we try to help other people makes us heroes in their eyes. Okay. What do you think about that?

I mean, logically, sure. The emotion still lasts. Yeah. Like, on a day-to-day basis. Like, it doesn't stop. So, yeah. I mean, I do feel good. I do feel less anxious.

I do feel less depressed. I don't feel like, I don't, I don't, I can look myself in the mirror again and say that you're doing good. Like, that's something that I did three months, and that was awesome to feel. But the idea that I have to go through school again with people who don't even know what life is at 17. They're starting out college at 17 and I'm 24. I'm basically seven years older. Like that feel.

I mean, yeah, like, I have no words put to this. I'm really sorry about that. I hope you understand, I guess. I get it. I get it because I did the same, right? So I went to school with a bunch of 22-year-olds when I was 28. And what I actually learned was kind of interesting. It's actually way easier.

So you feel ashamed for being older, but that experience is going to like be, at least for me, it was I realized, like as soon as I stopped comparing myself in terms of ages, what I realized is that stuff bothered them that didn't bother me, because I had actually been out into the real world. And I knew what mattered, right? Like, I had failed. And so what happened is I had all these colleagues who were like, terrified. of getting a B because they thought that was failure. And like, I had actually failed.

I was like, a B ain't, no one's going to kick me out of school with a B. And so they were so stressed out for getting a B. And I was like, you know, it'd be nice if I got an A, but I'm still, I got into med school. I'm moving on my path. I'm probably going to be a doctor one day as long as I don't screw it up. And like, that's what's really important to me. And I mean, it's hard, Chris, because I think that like the challenge here is that I see that you're suffering a lot.

You feel a lot of guilt. You feel a lot of shame. I'm also hearing that you can be proud. of yourself. And I don't know how to say this, but first of all, I don't think that there's anything I can say today that'll make all those negative feelings go away. And the second thing is that I don't want to make those negative feelings go away. I think that what's going to make you an amazing psychologist and therapist is actually having gone through this stuff. It's not just that you care about other people. It's that you know what it is to feel shame. You know what it is

to feel like a failure. And you can't see this now, but I sort of can. You know, 10 years from now, you're going to be in your office and a 22 year old kid, 24 year old kid is going to come into your office. And they're going to say, I work in marketing and I absolutely hate it, but I feel too guilty to leave. And you're going to be able to help that person because of your own struggles and your own suffering. And like when I think about, you know, what's made me the person that I am today, I wouldn't go back and change anything. Because I understood so much through my own struggles. It's like it's valuable information. And the good news is that you will get better at it, right?

you say that you look in the mirror and you can feel proud of yourself and you still feel ashamed. Less great, but like I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's part of your journey. That's part of your growth. You know, we become the people that we are not just through our successes, but also through our failures. And this is hard because in Indonesian society, you know, I'm making some assumptions here, but I know some of the culture. Like failure isn't a good thing in any way, shape, or form. You just don't think about it that way, right? It's just there's The more successes you have, the better you are. And you live in a society where they judge you like that, which is why, which is exactly

why it's going to be so important because 10 years from now, there are going to be tons of kids who are growing up in that same society, who are going to feel like absolutely nothing because they failed. And they're going to need a therapist who understands that. The downside is that you have to suffer through this in order to help those people. At least that's been my experience of my journey. I mean, your journey may be different. At least in the bright side, after, what, eight years, I get to be called Dr. K as well.

Sure. My name is great. Yeah. Yeah. I think I do understand now. I understand better, I guess. I can't say that. That's way better now than the first time we said hello.

Yeah. And I mean, I think it's, you know, you've got some deep stuff down there, Chris. And that's like, it's, I don't know what I'll say, man. It's okay. Like, this is just your journey. and it's going to have uncertainty. And like, you know, I may be good at particular things, but I can't look into the future and tell you everything is going to be okay.

I mean, I have faith that it will. And the last thing is I would seriously like consider talking to your parents about why don't they think that you're a failure? Like if you can stomach that conversation. And even if they say, and this is the most challenging thing, is that we don't want to be a disappointment. But what's actually healthier than that is being a disappointment and being okay with it. Because it's life.

Like no one's perfect. Thanks, man. I think I'm going to need it. See you, doctor. Okay. Adios. Bye, bye. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, it's tough. You know, like, we just have to be careful because a lot of times what we want to do is avoid negative emotions. And we think that we're doing the right thing in life because we don't feel bad about it.

Living a life in which we avoid negative emotions isn't necessarily going to lead us to happiness. And that's the most confusing thing. And the reason that it's like it's okay to make those kinds of mistakes is because no one ever explains it to us like that, right? Like, does anyone, did anyone sit down with Chris and ask him, why are you going into marketing? Did they have these heart-to-heart discussions? What does it feel like to, you know, spend eight months trying to get into French universities and failing to get in? Like, what's driving you to choose this? Does anyone sit down and ask you these kinds of questions so that you can understand? No, of course not. So we live life on autopilot. And the destination is the

avoidance of negative emotion at all costs. It's how we pick careers. It's how we pick careers. It's how we pick relationships. It's how we stay in relationships that we shouldn't stay in. It's why we use drugs. So you got to really be critical about why are we trying to do this? You know, what are we trying to avoid here? And like, I know it sounds kind of weird, but the more that we embrace negative emotion, we're not saying go out there and try to create as much a negative emotion as possible. What I'm saying is that align your decisions based on what you really care about and don't let pain, suffering, fear, or shame get in the way of you moving towards what you care about.