HealthyGamerGG - I’m Always Wearing a Mask

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

Dr. K talks about friendships feeling fake, self-deprecation, empathy, and more! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

They are able actually to form social connections, romantic relationships, be successful at work. So don't give up hope. It just takes a little bit of work. Hey, friend. Hi there. What do you go by? So my name is Robert. Roger? Uh, Robert. Robert. Robert?

Robert. Yeah, Robert. Okay. Welcome, Robert. How are you? Yeah, not bad. Thank you. How are your friendships going? So, My friendships have been, I'm talking in the past tense, I don't really have any friendships at the moment, but my friendships have always felt codependent. Okay. So I don't know how, do you, I can, I've got like maybe five minutes worth of stuff that I will sort of read out. Is that okay?

Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for preparing. Okay. So I'm going to start off by saying that I was diagnosed as autistic. I think. when I was three. Okay. And so when I was in school, so secondary school, 11 to 16, I wasn't able to mask my symptoms as well. So people would make fun of me for being weird. Like I was instantly weird to people.

And so naturally, because of this, I sort of fell into like the nerd group of my school. And so I remember, yeah. And so I remember early on, I had this quite an awkward encounter. I think it was with a girl. I just said something dumb. And my friend asked me, you know,

why am I so awkward around people? And I told him about my diagnosis. And so I remember regretting that day quite a lot because as soon as I told him, I gave him this, like, you know, I gave him this buzzword, basically. And so from then on, like all throughout school, I was, that word was used to describe me, like, constantly.

And so in my group, there were, I would say, three people who were a lot smarter than I was. And I was one of the four that weren't very intelligent. I was educationally quite mediocre, so I could never really join in on any intelligent discussion whatsoever. However, the only reason I had any value in this group was because I could make people laugh. Like that was like my place that I held in the group. And I found like, I mean, sometimes I could say things that were humorous. But there were times where I would say something or I would just do something. I would say something outrageous or do something outrageous.

And, you know, people would laugh at me rather than with me. Common. Yeah. So in fact, I think it happened more that people were laughing at me than with me. Now think of it. Yeah. So I realized that the only way I could get a positive response out of my friends was to just make them. Like I didn't have any place in this group other than my ability to make them laugh.

And I would sort of, like, I knew that they knew I was autistic. So I would like, I would play, play it up a little bit. Like, there were times where I would be, I would pretend to be completely oblivious to certain things. And in turn, that would sort of. of gain a reaction out of them like oh look at him he's he's the funny sped kid like you know he doesn't know you know yep and i sort of created like a almost a character out of myself rather than yeah like displaying who i was and overall i'd say i had one other group of friends who were i would say more malicious if in fact it was mostly only one person um the other group i'm on

good terms now with like we're okay but um there was another group of people that i joined through someone that i had known from when i was young it's like we you know we were we grew up together uh lived on the same lived on the same street and you know his he knew about my diagnosis because his mother had told him just for the sake of awareness and you know when we were kids it was like you know it's just childhood friends it doesn't matter but i i remember we connected later on um like sort of in our secondary school years, started playing CSGO together. And he played CSGO with his school friends. And so he introduced me to them.

And the first time he introduced me to his friendship group, he introduced me as, oh, this is the autistic guy that I was telling you, I was telling you about. And he, you know, he didn't even introduce me by name. I had to say it myself. But he, you know, he introduced me as this label right off the bat. But I, you know, I still managed to do my usual thing.

I was able to fit in with this group. I was, you know, I came in with my brand of loud and obnoxious humor and managed to get laughed out of them. So I, like, I knew that I was able to fit in at the very least. And I remember the first time that I met his friends in person, they were kind of like, I don't know what it was, but they were hesitant around me. And I wondered why. Like, I was, you know, I just like, introduced.

to myself. They sort of like, they were kind of like weirded out by me, like right off the bat. And later on, his friend had told me that this guy had said, oh, you know, you need to watch out around him. He's severely autistic and he might throw his arm out and accidentally hit you. And he, like, it was sort of said as a joke. Like he was trying to build this character of me, basically, rather than letting his friends meet me normally.

And so I was always introduced as the autistic guy. I was never Robert. I was always his autistic friend. That's how people referred to me as. And, you know, I was able to still, like, fit into a degree, but I was never really respected as a person. I was just kind of this, like, side show freak on the, you know. Sure.

Yeah, that's how I felt. And eventually you got to the point where I understood that I was sort of a lightning rod for all of the jokes. Damn, what a phrase, dude. That's such a powerful phrase. I heard the phrase stop being autistic a lot. Like if I ever said something that was against what they were saying, that was what was thrown at me just by default.

If I ever tried to stand up for myself, I wouldn't ever be taken seriously because I was just the funny guy. That's all I was. And because this word was being used to describe me so much, it became synonymous with my very existence. Like I, once I left school and I entered college, I really started, like college is high school, 16 to 18. And I really struggled to adjust.

Like I couldn't make any friends whatsoever. Like I felt really, really awkward around people because I thought that I just like emanated autism. Like they could just detect it just by standing near me. And, you know, that doesn't really make sense, right? but because I've been caught, like, I become so attached to this word and I felt like, like, I never understood really what I was being made fun of for, but I was being made fun of for something. So I thought, you know, I don't, people can just see it, but I can't. Does that make

sense? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And so, yeah, I didn't make any friends in my last years of education. and, you know, ever since I've just been like, I've been three years out of education, just working various different jobs. And I've sort of realized how it's affected me, like, in my working life because, and just, like, my ability to make friends in general. I've been around some people in work who are, like, my age, and I could have made friends with, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to, like, do the same thing as I did with, with all of my other friends and like

try to be outgoing and so I would you know I was always worried that they could like anyone that talks to me can detect it like they can they know like they can pick up on like my awkwardness so I basically try to pretend to be

as normal as possible and in turn it would make me seem really boring really unemotional like I would wouldn't show any personality, basically, because I was worried that if I do show any amount of personality, then it will be made fun of.

Yeah, absolutely, man. My heart goes out to you. I've only got a little bit left to read. But yeah, I feel like every single, like, I want to expand socially. I want to actually learn what a good friendship feels like. but I feel like this is going to get in the way because whenever I talk to people, I have this like feeling of just,

I feel like I can't be myself at all. Like I have to put on, you know, this completely normal appearance. I can't, you know, and I end up being, yeah, I've already gone over this. Sorry, I'm, yeah, I'm worried that because I have this anxiety of my autism being found, out and people finding out that there's something wrong with me, I try to be as normal as possible.

And in turn, that makes me seem weird in itself. And I just don't make friends. Yeah. Rigid. Exactly. Yeah. Robert, you'd mention something about codependence? So now I think of it.

Yeah. So I used that word because I was the friendship group that I was talking about that I joined through my childhood friend. they were like seen as sort of like popular kids basically and for me being in this friendship group um i felt like i was finally not a nerd anymore basically and so if i left this group i'd have nothing i'd have to be a nerd again yeah um so and yeah it always felt like they were above me, I was, I was below them. And I was always, I was always playing up to them just to stay in. Got it. Can I just think for a second? Sure. Thank you very much for sharing things so concisely. I think it's, it's actually very helpful and was also quite rich in terms of your

experience and your background and your information. So I'd love to just process for a moment and kind of formulate my thoughts. Okay. Yeah, so Robert, is it okay if I try to respond in a more, almost like you kind of gave me five minutes? Is it okay if I kind of try to do the same back to you and then we can maybe dig in a little bit more? Yeah, that's fine. So, you know, first of all, my heart really goes out to you. I think you've been the unhappy recipient of so much of the source.

struggle that we see with people who are on the spectrum. So the first thing is that there's just a lack of awareness about what autism is. And so, you know, like even, for example, like your friend's mom that told him that you were on the autism spectrum, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like, I think having awareness of people's neurodivergent, you know, differences can actually be like a really important piece of information. in helping us form appropriate relationships. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So it's not like we want to hide it, like we want people to be kind of aware, but I think the downside is that when we start to tell people, sometimes what happens is the autism starts to be our defining characteristic. Yeah. And once it starts to become the defining characteristic, I've seen this in a way that I recently,

that I really hadn't seen even five years ago. where sometimes groups of people, right, because we're being like more accepting of people with autism. And it's neurodevelopmental. And it's like, you know, it's a little neurodivergent. And so like I've almost seen people

who will have like a token autistic friend. So like groups of people will have like a friend. And it's like, oh, we're cool and we're accepting because we've got one, I'm friends with someone with autism. So that means that I'm a cool person and I'm like accepting of people and I'm woke and all this kind of. of stuff. But even then in that moment, they don't have a friend with autism. They have an autistic

friend. And this is where sometimes like, you know, I mean, I think you shared that beautifully when you kind of said, like, you got introduced as, oh, here's the autist I found. You know, and they didn't even like introduce your name. And that's where like what's sort of starting to happen is people are starting to be defined by their autism. instead of autism being a part of who they are. And this can get even worse because as you sort of get defined by this one thing, you're left with a very interesting social challenge, which is like, these people are my friend because like, oh, like, I'm autistic.

And then what happens is like you're trying to figure out, okay, how do I relate to these people? Because they're judging me in this way. And what a lot of people with autism will end up doing will also see this with other neurodivergent kind of conditions, like ADHD is very, very common, where you become the clown, right? Because that's how you get your social status. You may not be as intelligent as them. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, by the way, but, you know, if you say that, we'll accept that for now. But you kind of like, you turn into kind of this one-trick pony where like, oh, like, let's all laugh at the autistic kid. Because at least they're kind of laughing, right? They invite you. Like, you're invited,

but you're kind of the butt of jokes. And then you're kind of stuck because you're in the situation where even if you try to say something or do something or exhibit frustration with your quote unquote friends, they attribute, oh, they're like, that's just his autism acting out.

Like, oh, we don't have to take his like concerns seriously. We don't have to take his feelings seriously. We don't have to take his criticisms. Seriously, that's just the autism. It's just the autism. Yeah. And so it's a very, toxic dynamic where you have to like continue paying this price of being the butt of jokes

in order to get some degree of social acceptance. And then as you lobby to actually be a part of the group instead of fitting in, like they don't want that, right? Because they treat you, your entire relationship with them is defined by the autism. And so like we feel kind of stuck by this bullying. It's essentially bullying. And so then what happens, I've seen this a lot, where people will like learn from that, right? And they're like, okay, well, here's the way I've learned how to make friends, which is that like people are aware of my autism. It's sort of like demeaning in some ways. But it also is like sort of an excuse. And if I kind of screw up or people get mad at me, like they're still going to invite me next time because I'm autistic. You know, so it does have some advantages. I can poke fun at myself. That's what I bring to people. That's my fundamental value. And I'm going to, so I'm going to engage. So I'm going to engage. agent self-deprecating humor, which is going to encourage disrespect, and we're going to, like, keep that going to go because that's how I connect with people. And over time, what happens is people realize, like, oh, this is actually kind of toxic.

I don't like this. And then you become ashamed of the autism, because people have been treating you so poorly because you're autistic. And then you try to suppress parts of yourself, whereas, like, I don't think that you're funny just because you're autistic. It sounds to me like one of your best qualities is that. that you're actually like really genuinely funny. And so then what happens is we try to hide our autism and we suppress those humorous parts

of ourselves. You end up coming across as kind of like flat. Yes. Right? And then like people don't, you don't, it's like the thing that you are, the most valuable thing that you can offer to another human being is something that you've taken off the table. Because at the beginning, you used humor is a compensation for. or other potential deficiencies or autism or whatever.

And then you realize, like, in your mind, those two things have come together. Like, you can't be funny without being autistic almost. And then as you take humor off the table because you're taking autism off the table, then, like, how do you connect with people? And then you kind of become rigid, you kind of become flat, you kind of become inauthentic. And then it's hard to connect with people when you're just kind of like neutral.

Yeah. It's like, I got to say, it's really hard to be in this situation. And this is a situation that I hear about so much from people who are on the spectrum. Does that resonate with you? That it's, you know, yeah, 100%. I mean, every single thing. Definitely, yeah.

So, and this is what stop. I don't know that I have an easy answer for you because I think it's like, it's a problem we're seeing that's like more and more. you know, challenging, it's happening more and more. So let me start with a couple of questions. Is that okay? Yeah, that's fine. So the first is how do you feel about being autistic?

I'm just going to think for a second. I feel like it's an unnecessary hindrance of my communication. There's a lot of, there's this stereotype of an autistic person where they're sort of like gifted in some sort of way like oh you know rain man if you've ever watched that movie or he can count cards whatever i'm not i'm not like good at maths i'm not good at coding i'm not really particularly good at anything i just have the social downsides that's how i personally feel about it yeah so i think that's a really good um that's a really good description because sometimes in the game of life we almost think about it like i don't know if you play d and d or

like RPGs, but... I'm not ready. Okay. So like sometimes we have like this character creation kind of perspective where it's like if I get a negative trait, I get some kind of bonus point somewhere else. Yeah. And then it all evens out in the end.

Like I can min max by having a really low stat over here, but then I'm super high over here. And unfortunately sometimes that's not how life works. Right? Sometimes things are just like negative. Like there's no there's no like upside to trauma. Like, right? You know, it, so that's challenging.

So how do you feel about, so you kind of don't feel like you have any kind of advantages. You're not an autistic savant. No. And so, but how do you feel about, like, what is, how do you feel about that? Like, not having an advantage and just having a straight disadvantage. I can't really, just bad. I can't really elaborate on it anymore. Like, you know, there's, there's no upside.

Yeah, so do you find yourself wishing that you weren't autistic? All the time. And are you ashamed of being autistic? I will say not so much anymore. Like I've been working a lot on dealing with that shame, and I'm not really ashamed of it anymore. The way I see it now is I could do without it, and it probably would have made my life play out a little. It would have made my life easier at that stage of my life. but I'm not ashamed of it necessarily.

Like I've sort of worked on that. So I'm really happy to hear that. I think that's going to be very important for going forward. And so what makes it hard for you to form connections with people now? I would say this is slowly improving, but I would say for the past three years, the only people have already interacted of people at work. it's the the difficulties of like

that there's something so awkward about small talk and just regular passing interactions with people and that there's a lot of that that happens at work you need to say good morning like how are you I'm fine how are you you need to ask them the same question and then they say the same thing back to you and it like the inauthenticity

of all of these interactions and I always feel like disgusting after I engage in any of like, I can't do small talk. That's just like one of them. The question was, what do you think stops me from building connections with people, right? Yeah. And if it's like, I don't like small talk, that's a completely valid answer.

Yeah. Okay. And the other one, a big part is like eye contact. I can only really make eye contact for like two seconds out of time before I have to look away. Because obviously, like, you know, you look at like, you know, people, normal people look at each other. And so over time I've learned that I have to kind of do that, even though it is difficult.

So I'll look at people in the eyes for like two seconds, and then I have to look away because it comes, it becomes too uncomfortable. And what this means is that people sort of naturally get an impression of me that I'm not really on the same page as they are. Like, I'm, you know, I'm not listening to them or I'm not interested in what they're saying. So I think I actually give across like an arrogant vibe.

If people don't know, they just assume that I'm rude. And how do you feel about telling people that you're on the spectrum? I don't. I wouldn't ever do it unless it was the only person. I've only told, I'm not going to count all the people that I've told. It would make me uncomfortable to tell someone unless it was necessary. like a manager for instance I told my manager at my current job

that I'm autistic and if I'm not making eye contact as much it feels good to sort of get that weight off my shoulders that I don't feel like I have to pretend like they understand that I've got this thing that might make me seem slightly blunt or standoffish at times and I've sort of got a reason for it

so I think the fear of Telling someone can be quite strong because I worry about maybe like, oh, will they think that I'm incompetent? Will they fire me? But I think once I, you know, the most recent case, telling my manager, once I told him, I felt like people at work started to, like, when I used to come to work, I would just like come in, not say a word and I would go home.

But now that people sort of understand they're okay with that. And I'm actually, I actually feel more like a lot more comfortable in my workplace. and so I feel like I have actually started talking more to my co-workers now. So I know the positive effects that telling people can have. It's just getting over that initial hurdle of telling them that that scares me. Yeah. So, Robert, I actually feel like I've got some, I want to share some more stuff with you. I feel like you actually did such a beautiful job with your initial kind of five minutes that I don't feel like I need to ask you a bunch of questions.

Is it okay if I share some thoughts with you, or were you hoping that I would ask you more questions? No, you can share your thoughts. It's fine. So here's, so I'm optimistic for you, first of all. So I think just talking to you now, I think you have a lot to offer people. And, you know, I don't know, hopefully you're not watching Twitter chat or anything like that. Oh, no, definitely not. Good. And also, I think that like what I'm, you know, overwhelmingly seeing is that people think you're

a cool person and you know, you're worthy of hanging out with and have friendship and all this kind of stuff, right? So, so like, I'm not, I'm not hearing an overt rejection from people on Twitch, which I think is great. So, so I think part of what you're dealing with is the fear that you have is primarily because you are, it sounds like in two primary situations, also with people who are like kids for the most part, right? And so kids are not going to be the most empathic. In fact, kids are some of the nastiest people on the planet when it comes to treating other, like treating people with compassion. Like kids can be some of the most cruel human beings like in the world. And so I think a lot of your fear actually is reasonable, right, because you've

had this experience where people have defined you by autism, have treated you a particular way because of that autism. Some of that was also like played into by you because that was your adaptation to get acceptance, right? Yeah. And so going forward, I almost think that you're, you know, what I would, what I've actually seen works and I'm, is first of all, developing a healthy understanding and relationship with your own autism. And what, and I think you're actually like really far there. So in the past when I've done, you know, therapy with people who have autism, we try to get to kind of where you are, which is that I'm not ashamed of it and it sucks. Like, I wish I didn't have it and it's okay to authentically wish I wasn't autistic.

And also, like, it's just part of who I am and I don't need to be ashamed of it. Like, you're completely valid with all of those thoughts. The other thing that I'd kind of say is there is some, we talked about the downsides of increasing autism awareness, which is that sometimes you'll have social groups that want a token autistic friend. But the upside is that there are a lot of people out there who are more aware that, you know, autism is more common than we originally thought. It's a spectrum. And that will be actually like more understanding of your situation and, and try to understand

you better and will like recognize that if you're not making eye contact, if you struggle with small talk, they won't attribute that to other things kind of unfairly, right? Like you're kind of like you're uninterested or, you know, you're arrogant or whatever. you kind of said. So oddly enough, in your case, I would actually say just like keep trying to connect with people. And also, you don't want to lead necessarily with, hi, my name is Robert. I'm on the spectrum. But also, like, I wouldn't, you know, if you feel like, especially with small talk, I think you can kind of like share that tidbit a little bit earlier. And I wouldn't be surprised. I'm so happy to hear about kind of your situation at work, because what I've actually found

is that, you know, if you kind of put that out there and you kind of put yourself out there, and I would include, like, activating your humor too, that if you try that with five or six different groups of people, it'll land really well with like 50% of them. And I think to a certain degree, it's kind of a numbers game, because as people are more, you know, compassionate towards people who are neurodivergent, that actually, like, opens a lot of doors and also that like if you if they kind of understand that oh the reason that you're not making eye contact isn't because you dislike me it's maybe a manifestation of being on the autism spectrum like that will allow relationships to foster and hopefully you'll actually find

situations more like you did at work i'm actually really hopeful because you've at least had a couple right and so oddly enough i think forming relationships with you is really sort of like acknowledging that fear acknowledging where that fear comes from and also not letting the fear control you and kind of taking a chance, being a little bit funny, and also not hiding the fact, I wouldn't advertise it,

but also not being ashamed of and not hiding the fact that you're on the spectrum. How does that sound to you? Yeah, I think, you know, I don't want to be someone who makes it, I don't want to sort of like wear autism as a badge and sort of like show it around. But at the same time, I think, yeah,

when necessary, when it makes sense, sense to tell people, then I will. And I think I'm a lot more comfortable with doing that now. Yeah, I'm actually just talking to you and having this interaction makes me quite optimistic that you know, it's going to be a little bit of a bumpy road. And I think you're probably looking at some amount of rejection. But also that rejection is not something that I think is like, this is the hard thing is sometimes it's hard to acknowledge that if a group rejects us, it's not like we're personally deficient, right? Yeah. And even then, it may not be like a straight rejection. It's just like, you know, if you, hey, like you want to hang out sometime. Yeah, sure, I'd love to.

And then nothing ever happens doesn't mean that I don't like you. It just means that maybe I'm busy or maybe I'm struggling with my own depression or, you know, like there's a lot of family drama going on or things like that. And I think that's where it's like just important to remember that to a certain degree, it's like kind of a numbers game. that if you reach out and try to connect with five different groups of people, you know, two to three of them will probably like not land. But all you really need is like one or two. And then I think you're, you've really come a long way.

And I'm optimistic that if you just keep on trying, you'll actually do really well. Yeah. How does that sound to you? I mean, the, the rejection part, like obviously I'm, I have quite a negative relation. Well, I think everyone does. No one, nobody wants to be rejected.

But yeah, getting over that sort of everyone hates me. If these people hate me, that will be the most difficult part. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, so like I said, it's going to be a bumpy road. I think this is the kind of thing we're actually like seeing a therapist could also help you with that kind of stuff. I am currently seeing a therapist. Oh, that's fantastic.

So I would take that, you know, those rejections, I would take him to therapy and kind of vent them there. I'm not surprised at all to hear that you're seeing a therapist because it sounds like you really come a long way and you're, you know, doing really well. The one thing that I would remember is that sometimes this can be a feature of being on the spectrum, but it is not exclusive to being on the spectrum. So a lot of neurotypical people will do this. Like, you know, that rejection is sometimes a manifestation of black and white thinking. Yeah. And just be aware of that, right? So black and white thinking is not specific to autism.

spectrum, but I tend to see it happen more in people with autism. And so some of this stuff like, oh, the only thing I bring to the table is self-deprecating humor, that kind of black and white thinking I would start to really become aware of and question a little bit. Because I think you bring a lot, I mean, just talking to you now, like, I feel like I would have no trouble hanging out with you for like two or three hours and just, you know, and you haven't cracked any jokes. Like you're insightful, you're thoughtful, you know, you're organized with your speech,

you're self-aware, like you bring a lot to the table. Yeah, but like in, you know, with the way that I'm interacting with you currently, it's very, it's very formal. Like, I'm not interacting with you in like a bubbly, energetic way. You know, I'm just, I'm just saying words. That's all I'm doing. And I want to get past that like exterior that I've built for myself. I'm, you know.

You mean, Robert, you mean it's, it gets better than this? I mean, I don't know. I feel like this is just very, I feel like you're, you may, you feel like you feel like you're talking to a robot right now because of the sort of. I don't feel like I'm talking to a robot. Well, that's how I always feel when I talk to people because I, I feel like, because I don't, I'm not emotive and I'm not energetic like other people are. they get the impression and I'm like, and yeah, I don't know. I'll just take what you said. Yeah, so like, it's important to acknowledge that, right?

But that's the whole point is that a lot of you forming friendships is going to be not negotiating against yourself. Could you elaborate? Yeah. So like, like, you know, you, you're pre-rejecting yourself. you're not even giving me the chance to accept or reject you. You're assuming that I think I'm talking to a robot. Yeah. I didn't feel that way at all.

Yeah, I was the only one he said it. Yeah, like, you don't seem like a robot to me. That's great to hear. That's why honestly, my reaction when you told me like, I'm not being bubbly and energetic is like, this is great. You're telling me it gets better than this? Like, that sounds awesome. You know, and that's what I think I'm hearing from you, Robert, is that you're not showcasing your best self.

I think the big difference is that even your best self is actually completely acceptable. I mean, even not being your best self is completely acceptable and sounds fantastic. I just feel like I'm talking to a normal, open, thoughtful person. That's what I get from this conversation. Okay. I don't think I've ever been told that before. I think, but it's good to hear that, like, outside perspective. I don't, I'm not getting any of the sense that you're funny, but I would, I would say the word that comes to mind the most is that you're thoughtful.

Yeah. And if it gets better than that, it's like, like, give me the DLC, bro. You know, like, don't, don't, don't paywall the humor. I appreciate that. Thank you. Any questions? Um, I would like to think. Sure.

Just for a second. Okay. I think a big one for me is, is eye contact and like how much of it is, is it something that can be worked on. Like, can I learn to make more eye contact? This is where the answer is going to be kind of strange. The answer is going to be yes and no. So if you look at, you know, I'm not an expert. on autism in terms of my clinical practice.

But I think that there are, so if you look at like evidence-based psychotherapies and what's effective for people who are on the spectrum, there is a certain amount of like social skills training that can improve your ability to like relate to other people. Yeah. And you can sort of socially train it, but it may never be at the level of like natural eye contact if your brain was a little bit different. Okay. So hopefully, I mean, I love it if someone proved me wrong, but, you know, what we understand

about people who are neurodivergent is that their brains are a little bit different. You can compensate for a lot of it. What I will tell you is that at some point, it becomes completely irrelevant. So, like, you may have difficulty with eye contact or it may feel a little bit artificial. It's kind of hard. This has been my experience working with people on. the spectrum is that it's hard to like find a natural level right so you learn how to make more eye contact but then you can feel like you're staring a little bit too much and that can make people

some people uncomfortable and the truth of the matter is that for some people that i've worked with they never get to the neurotypical level and it's actually kind of irrelevant because it feels awkward for the first hour that you're with people but i've worked with a ton of people who never master eye contact who are still able to live completely fulfilling social and romantic lives. Because at some point, like, a lot of that eye contact is actually with the initial social interaction. And I don't know how to say this, but, you know, I'm assuming that you've got relationships with your family, but like, do you have eye contact problems with your family?

It's not as bad. It's not as bad. But that, like, I can't look. There's still that thing or I can't look for too long. Yeah. It just gets uncomfortable. Right. So, like, you may continue to have it.

My point is that it may not impact. the relationship. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I have been told that eye contact is huge when it comes to connecting with people. Yeah, but I think it's more important early on, right? And what I've seen is that people like conform relationships and then then it's totally fine.

Like if you go to movies, like if you go to the movies with a couple of friends, you're not, no one's making eye contact anyway, so it's not really an issue. And if you go to a meal, you know, it's not like everyone's staring at each other for extended periods of time. And so it's okay. Like if you go on a hike with someone, for example, like you're going to be walking side by side, you're not even going to be looking at each other. So as you develop relationships with people, I think eye contact becomes less of a hindrance in terms of the relationship. Okay. But I'm, you know, but I have worked with people who continue to struggle with it and never really master it fully, which is unfortunate, but also,

doesn't determine your future. Yeah. And am I good to ask one more question? Sure. So I have worked in places in the past where I feel like due to, you know, not being so, you know, very, due to being autistic and, well, people aren't ever really aware that I'm autistic. They just think that I'm off or rude, as I've said before. And I'm worried as to how, what I'm trying to say? Like, how much important, like, is it common for autistic people to be fired from their job

because of things that they give off to people? Hmm, that's such a good question. I actually don't, so I imagine that there's probably research about that, but I don't know the statistics. I don't know is the short answer. Okay. Let me think about how I can try to offer something a little bit more substantive. So I would find it hard to believe that I would imagine that being on the spectrum makes social interactions at work a little bit more challenging.

And I would also expect that challenging social interactions at work, don't correlate well with employment and things like that. Yeah. But, and I'm not using an end here, I'm really using a but. There are lots of other people and lots of other conditions that lead to problematic social interactions that have nothing to do with autism, right? Like, so people can be narcissistic, they can be passive aggressive. And the other thing that I'd say is that I know a ton of people who are very successfully employed, who are, are, on the spectrum.

Okay. And, you know, like, so I think it's, it may be a disadvantage of some kind, but I think it's far from destiny. And I think it's also far from like insurmountable. Yeah. It's just a case of finding the right company. Yeah. Some companies don't have more of an issue. Some of them are.

Yeah. So like also vocalizing to people when you're ready that you are on the spectrum and that it affects things in a particular way. But like, you know, sharing with your boss that, hey, I'm on the spectrum, these are the things that I struggle with. But like, you know, anytime I'm open to feedback, I'm a very hard worker, and here are the ways that I try to compensate. You know, if this ever becomes a problem, please let me know and I'm happy to work on it. Like, even vocalizing things like that can actually set you above your peers because a lot of neurotypical people will never say stuff like that. And they'll be oblivious to feedback and

take things personally and things like that. Yeah. So, you know, if you feel like autism is a disadvantage, I'm not going to disagree with you. You're the one who lives your life. And at the same time, I don't think that it dooms you to anything. And the person that I feel like I'm talking to who's this thoughtful and proactive about their life, I'm optimistic that you can have a good job, good career, and you can form solid human connections. Okay, that's great to hear. Thank you.

Yeah. I think you've put in a lot of ways. work, Robert, and I think it shows. Okay. I mean, is there anything else? Not from my end. All right. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for sharing and thanks for calling in. All right. Thank you. Take care. Oh, Inferno Pizza wants to be his friend real bad. Yeah, so I think, you know, I just want to kind of recap this for a second. So sometimes we're becoming more aware that people are on the autism spectrum. So a couple of things to remember. The first is,

is that the autism spectrum is a spectrum. And so there's, you know, you can't define the destinies of people on the autism spectrum in one particular way because different people have different advantages, disadvantages, et cetera. I think, unfortunately, what we're starting to see is that as, on the one hand, it's good that there's more autism awareness, right? So people like Robert is in a workplace where he explained this to his boss. Boss is very understanding. So it sounds like he's feeling more comfortable at work. So I think it's totally fine to share with people if you are on the spectrum.

A weird thing that I'm starting to see, though, is that sometimes it starts to define you in a social group, which can actually be quite toxic, where everything that you do is because you're autistic, right? It's like we don't sometimes allow people with autism to have normal variation. And just because I'm mad at you doesn't mean that I'm autistic and can't regulate my emotions. It's possible the reason that I'm mad at you is because you're actually treating me inappropriately and with disrespect. So sometimes we'll see a lot of invalidation towards people on the spectrum. And sometimes we'll also see a weird kind of toxic thing, which is like the token autistic friend in a friend group, which, as Robert said, can sometimes make you a lightning rod for jokes. And so the challenge is if you grow up on the spectrum, and it doesn't necessarily have to be on the autism spectrum.

I've seen this with other things like ADHD as well, where you sort of learn that humor and self-deprecating humor is the way that you get admission to a friend group. But if that's what starts to happen, like you're paying a poor admission price and you're not truly being accepted. So if you're struggling to form connections, I think a lot of it is actually disentangling.

some of the self-deprecating humor and things like that, like sort of trying to find a nice balance with accepting that you are autistic, accepting that there may not be a particular advantage, not to say that it's all bad, right? So people with autism are allowed to say this is not a disadvantage. They're allowed to say this is a disadvantage. Like that depends on the individual. We don't get to decide that for people with autism.

You have to develop your own relationship and comfort and acceptance with your neurodivergence. And once you do that, hopefully you're not ashamed of it, right? So I think overcoming that shame is really important. And then as you start to form connections with people, thankfully, there is more awareness. And sometimes you have to let people know that you're on the spectrum to help them understand why you may not be doing some things that neurotypical people do. But in my experience, people who sort of take this approach and overcome some of their fears

and don't like slip into automatic self-deprecating humor because that, attracts for a particular kind of person, they are able actually to form social connections, romantic relationships, be successful at work. So don't give up hope. It just takes a little bit of work.