HealthyGamerGG - "I'm not the Main Character in my life" | Viewer Interview

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

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Yeah. Oh, hey. Hey, man. Yeah, that last interview was March of last year, actually. Okay. So, and we are following up with you, right? I have the right, Asriel. Yes. Yeah, so I was going to say, like, now that I see the face, I remember. So we talked about social anxiety or something, or confidence? Remind me? I think we talked about overthinking. Okay. So, you know, when I have to do something and then like I'll generate all these thoughts about what could go wrong.

Okay. So can you fill us in a little bit about, in a little bit more detail about what we covered last week? I mean, sorry, last year. I don't know. It's a long time ago. I think we talked a lot about sort of success and failure and like feeling destined to succeed or fail. Okay. There was, I don't know.

Okay. So tell us, how have you been over the last year and a half? It's been about 15 months, right? Something like that. I don't know. There's been a lot that's going on. So I've done coaching. Okay.

And I, you know, I think I mentioned last stream that, like, I was switching majors to physics. I ended up dropping out of physics and switching back to marine biology. Okay. And then with the help of a therapist, I actually managed to finish second year a few months ago. Okay. And I got back into coaching a few months ago in the high performance group. Okay, cool. So it sounds like you've been, and how do you feel about, how do you feel about stuff?

So it was definitely very rough in the beginning. I think I like just so much has happened that I'm definitely feeling a lot better now than I was. I don't know. I've been focusing a lot on self-improvement and just getting better and improving myself and, you know, feeling my emotions and trying to, you know, take action in my life. So. Good for you, man. Yeah. So you're going to say something?

Oh, go ahead. Yeah, so I'm kind of, if I remember, because it has been a while, if I remember correctly, you were very externally concerned. Like your mind would think about what would happen. Yeah. Right? So like, can, does that ring? I mean, can you share with us?

Because like, remind me a little bit, you remember, because I know it's been like over a year, but like if I'm just remembering like notes of the conversation about like, you know, you'd be concerned that this would happen and it wouldn't go well and like you may not do well and things like that. Yeah. Um, sort of like I'm very, I was very outcome oriented where it was like, you know, I'm trying to put my best quality work and like I got to do my best. and everything and yeah so I think there's a lot of anxiety that I can build up about doing a particular task and making it you know work and something that I can be

proud of I think there is a lot of fear around how other people perceive me if I mess up or fail so I have social anxiety as well Not online. It's only like in real life, which is interesting. Okay. And and so has that changed for you at all, Asriel, about being outcome oriented or? Yeah. So when I was in coaching and in therapy, I started to get my life together. And it was interesting because, you know, all these things were sort of, you know, I was doing school. I was taking better care of myself. but the emotions did not change. I still felt terrible for a long time. And sort of like, well, this isn't working.

I don't know what's going on. I've done everything. And I think I realized that the problem was that I wasn't addressing the underlying sort of emotions and what I was feeling. I was just sort of trying to push past it to do what I needed to do. and what what kind of emotion was underlying can you help us understand that well i think there was definitely fear uh hopelessness uh loneliness sadness um frustration frustration at like feeling all those things um yeah it's just uh yeah all sorts of stuff

and asrael forgive do you do you prefer Asriel, by the way, or do you want me to call you something else? Yes, it's up to you. Asriel or Thomas. What do you prefer? Whatever you prefer, my dude. All right. Well, online, I usually just go by Asriel. Okay. So, Asriel, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second, okay? All right.

So you're saying that, like, so you started to put your life together, right? You went into coaching, you got into therapy. So it sounds like you did one batch of coaching, one round of therapy, and then a second batch of coaching. Yeah. And so the funny thing there is that like you're saying that like you started putting your life together. So you were like back in school, maybe you were like doing stuff. But internally you still felt awful. And so like my question to you is, isn't the point of going to therapy that it's supposed to fix the internal stuff? Like how does that work?

That externally things are going well and internally like don't you go to therapy and doesn't that fix the internal stuff? Isn't that how it works? Well, I don't know. It was when I was in therapy, it was, you know, I told my therapist what my goals were to finish school and everything

and they were going to help me with that. I don't know. I found therapy was, so we only had like half an hour every week to talk and I found it was mostly just me recapping what

happened that week and then the therapist would provide occasional input. But it was mostly just, and then they would validate or talk about whatever I was feeling and like maybe point out thought distortions and all that. And I think I used that to sort of help me progress, but I didn't use it to sort of address to sort of address the underlying feelings necessarily. And so once you had that realization, which is a big one, how do you feel about your therapy experience? Are you kind of happy with it?

So when I finished school, I felt like I got everything I needed out of therapy. Like, you know, we discussed everything that I thought I was ever really going to need from it. So I was getting expensive and I basically quit. Yeah, what was the question again? I was just curious about whether you were happy with your therapy experience. Mixed feelings. So I definitely think it helped.

I don't think it did everything that I thought it would do. Okay. And can you help me understand? Well, so let's start. What did you want it to do that it didn't do? I think I wanted to, I don't know, just be more at peace with myself, maybe less stressed, less anxious. I think it did help with that. It's just that because it was only for five months, there was only so much progress that we could have made.

I was interesting because when I was in therapy we were talking about how like you know I'm working so hard I'm doing all this stuff and it's not enough and my therapist was like oh wait a minute this is insane you're you're thriving in a pandemic when most of my clients are like fish out of water it's like so I think part of therapy was just recognizing when I was pushing myself to hard or not acknowledging, you know, what I had accomplished and just looking at how far I've come. Hmm. So maybe one of the thought distortions. Yeah, I guess so. And I think we also had, um, uh, I have a lot of shoulds. So like I should be doing this. I should be doing that. So we discussed that. Yeah. So Asriel, it sounds like you've come a long way.

Yeah, I'd say so. Okay, so you would own that as opposed to... Definitely. Okay. And can you help me understand what the experience of coaching was like versus therapy and how the two are different or similar? So with coaching, the first coaching I did, It was, you know, me and a group of other people that maybe we were unfamiliar with our emotions.

We didn't really know what we were doing in life and we were just trying to figure things out. I think coaching was very good at, I'd say it's actually like, because coaching got me into therapy where we discussed, you know, how our week was going. And again, I am devaluing all the stuff that I did that week, and they would stop me and say, hey, actually, that's pretty amazing. Like, good job. And I'd be like, if I didn't do anything, like, what are you talking about? So, I don't know. I think we worked through that.

There was definitely some practical skills, like reflective listening, recognizing, you know, emotions, stuff like that. then that got me into therapy, which was more one-on-one. I had someone through better help, and they were very good at, what's it called? I had it, and now I forgot. The cognitive behavioral therapy, I think it's called. Okay, yeah, CBT. Sounds like it with thought distortions. Yeah.

And so I think that was sort of a continuation of. of, you know, where I left off with coaching. And then once therapy was too expensive when I finished school, and I still felt like I needed to talk to people. So I got back into coaching in the high performance group because I felt like I sort of progressed past the regular coaching by that point. Sure. And what's that experience? Are you still doing the high performance group?

Yeah. And how's that going? That's pretty good. I think I feel in the group, and we've discussed this, is that I'm the youngest member. I'm still in school. Most of them have jobs. And so maybe I just feel a little bit. Asriel, I've heard about you. I'm now putting, I heard about the group that you're in. If I remember correctly, so I heard that there was someone in one of the high performance groups that was really, confused about what they were doing there? That's probably me. And how do you feel about it now? It's pretty good, actually.

Yeah. I'm really happy to hear that. So if I could just share this, so I heard. So I sort of hear about, I don't know if you guys know this, but, you know, I work, we do have like a model where I work with your coaches on a weekly basis. And so I hear about, you know, challenges or situations. in the different groups and I'll kind of like weigh in. So I heard there was one group that, you know, has like CEOs and people who are like

have real careers. And there was one person who's very young who was really confused about what they were doing there. I don't know if that was you or if that, you know, maybe every group has one person that feels like they don't belong. But, you know, so I did sort of hear about that. And what do you think about being in the group now? It's a pretty good experience.

I like it. I have a lot to contribute, even if I'm the youngest member. And it's good to just share my opinion. Yeah. Do you feel like the other group members respect you? Yeah, I think so. So that makes me really happy to hear Asriel, because I think the goal of group is to have someone like you and come in and feel like,

like, that's exactly what we're here to work on, right? So you come into a situation, you're like, oh, all of these people are better than me. And the goal of group is like, we're going to work on you in the group until you no longer feel that way. You can honestly acknowledge that, yes, these people are actually objectively further along in life than I am. And yet, it's okay for me to be here. That I can still make meaningful contributions. That something about my experience can still help other people. That I can still help them and they can still help me.

and so if you feel like you belong there, like I'm really happy to hear that, because I don't think I ever got an update. I just stopped hearing about it. So I just sort of assumed that things had gotten better. But if you know, anyway, if you do have challenges, feel free to bring them up in the group.

And then I think I'll wind up hearing about them if there's a, you know, concern or problem. All right. But I think, yeah, go ahead. I think more recently with me trying to find a job this summer, I don't know, it brought up a lot of feelings of sort of inadequacy. Like they all have jobs and here I am.

I had an emotional breakdown like in front of the job site and it's like I can't even get a job and I'm in this group. So as it brought up some of those feelings again. Yeah. So it sounds like once again, the feelings are down there. Sorry, I didn't mean to laugh, but I was just, you know, despite all the progress we just talked about, I really commend you for saying, but by the way, it's not entirely fixed. And that's, you know, Asriel, just to say, like, that's how growth happens.

You know, it's sort of like when I think about, you know, even like playing a game, like, do you play games? Yeah, absolutely. What do you play? Minecraft. I've done a lot of Starblast.io, which, yeah, it's sort of, you know, you're a spaceship and you go around in mine asteroids and upgrade your spaceship. And there's different game modes. You can play in a team. survival mode, capture the flag, all sorts of stuff.

Interesting. Yeah. It's just an online browser game. So when I kind of think about games, you know, when you're playing a game, like, you may not master something right away, right? Like there's the first time you learn how to do something and then you screw up a couple times and then like you do it again and then you screw up fewer times and then you do it again and then you screw up maybe once and then you do it again. And then eventually, like, you have it down. And what I'm hearing from you is almost a similar pattern within group where, like, you're going to feel inferior. Right.

And there are objective reasons why I don't think you should feel inferior as a human. But in terms of experience, like, you may be the least experienced person in the group, but someone's got to be the least experienced person in the group. And at the same time, you know, how can you grow and understand that? And then also, like, you're going to have breakdowns in front of the job hunting page. Like, that's totally like normal, actually, right? No, it wasn't the job hunting page. I actually got a job. I just never showed up.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I went to the area where the job was, and then I was supposed to contact someone, but I never did. I don't know. I feel a little bit guilty about it. and like that's weird because like nobody even called me or asked me where I was and it's been a few weeks now I showed up like two other times but I never actually was able to get into the job so it was a general labor job and I think I just have doubts about whether or not I'll be able to handle it and maybe about working with other people there, especially because I haven't shown up in a few days.

So, yeah. When were you supposed to start your job? It is the 25th, I think. On the 9th. Okay. So, yeah, it's been a long time. No one's even contacted me to, like, fire me or ask me where I am, so I'm just looking for another job now.

Have you contacted them? No. Do you want to work there? Not anymore. What's changed? I don't know. I just feel like I messed up. I don't think they'd want me back after not showing up for a few weeks.

I feel like they probably moved on and found someone else by now. So I don't see our even. reason to go back there. I think that I can find different work, something maybe I'll be better able to manage. Are you concerned about being able to manage this job? Yeah, I think so. It's full time, so I think it's 10 hours a day, and so it's a big commitment, and I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. Okay. I tried at least.

Like, I tried to show up and everything. Sounds like it was a bit too much for you. Maybe. I'm good at pushing myself past my boundaries, though. I'm happy to hear you say that. I'm showing up there

was definitely pushing my boundaries already. Yep. I completely agree, man. So sometimes I'll work with people about going to the gym. You know, they'll want to go to the gym. And like, there are different ways to not go to the gym. There's the, oh, I'd wish I want to go and then never signing up for anything. Then there's signing up for stuff.

Then there's waking up the morning of and not going. Then there's actually getting in your car and then deciding, fuck this, getting out of your car. Then there's getting in your car driving with the parking lot, waiting in the parking lot for five minutes with an existential crisis and then driving home. And then there's walking in and feeling like an idiot if you walk out. So you might as well just like check in completely because the person behind the desk is like, who is this person who's walking in the door turns around and walks out? And then the embarrassment is going with you.

And then you kind of like enter the gym. And then you're like, it would be dumb to just turn around and walk out now. So I might as well like work out a little bit. There are various phases, you know, we kind of think about going to the gym or not going to the gym is like binary, right? But the truth is that there's actually like a progress bar in terms of like getting a job. And even in terms of like not showing up for the job, there's so many ways you cannot show up. You can not apply. You can not interview. You can show up on your first day, have an existential crisis, turn around and leave. You know? And I know it sounds weird,

but like that's honestly how it works. I wish it was simpler. I wish it was less painful, but, you know. Yeah. I don't know. I've had a lot of those types of experiences, I don't know, since two years ago, since second year university. Just trying to figure out everything with living on my own,

doing university in a pandemic, trying to feed myself, trying to, you know, figure out income, money, all that stuff. So it's been a lot of work. Yeah, man. It sounded like your therapist felt like you were thriving in a pandemic. Yeah. I think I made a lot of progress, for sure.

I can certainly, I don't really remember a lot of the details of our conversation, Asriel, but I certainly remember I don't remember seeing this degree of confidence in you. Like there are certain statements that you've made where I really get the sense that you kind of acknowledge where you are. You accept how far you've come because I get the impression that you used to make statements that would like devalue your progress. Like you used to say, you know, like you just made a statement a little while ago that I'm good at pushing past my boundaries. whereas I feel like a year ago you would have said, I need to be better at pushing past my boundaries, or I don't push myself past my boundaries enough.

I think even back then I was pushing myself a lot. That's why I was sort of, well, like even getting on stream and stuff, that was pushing myself past my boundaries back then. It was a lot. I don't know. I guess the difference is just that I've had more time to actually do that and figure out what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, how everything works. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of self-reflection and understanding yourself quite a bit.

Yeah, absolutely. I've been watching your videos like pretty much. much every single one since, like since Recful. Have those been helpful? Yeah, absolutely. I don't know, you get a lot of, all sorts of people with going through all their own struggles and just listening to it all and figuring out how it applies to me and trying to integrate that into how I approach my problems. I find it very helpful. I'm happy to hear that. I'm

happy to hear it's been helpful. You know, I never really know. I'm pretty sure. I feel pretty confident about the person that I talk to, but I'm, I've always been curious just as a clinician, because I've seen impact when I work with people individually. I've always just been like a little bit curious about how much benefit you can get from watching a YouTube video or like watching like real benefit you know like sure you can get entertained maybe you can pick up a little bit of like neat information here or there but can you actually change your life and I find myself being skeptical hey yes and I mean it hasn't just being you I mean you know I follow one other Twitch streamer why you've and um know if I ever need a place to go to

just, you know, hang out and chill and have fun, I can go there. And given that, it's just a huge difference. And for recently, even in the Healthy Gamer Discord, I'm in talking with people in chill chat. And it's nice to get out of my head sometimes. Yeah, Yoverin is fantastic, dude. I love what he does on Twitch. Yeah. So, Asriel, can you tell me a little bit?

You said that for a long time you were, like, doing stuff outwardly and, like, actually making progress in your life, but you were sort of not recognizing or acknowledging emotions. How did you, can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. So when I am doing something, um, if it's outside my comfort zone, what I'll notice is, you know, a bunch of emotions arise. There'll be fear, anxiety, social anxiety, worry, you know, whatever. And then how I actually deal with that is to overcome all those emotions with frustration. I can use that to sort of suppress everything and just push through. And the problem with that is that, you know, it provides a temporary buff at that time,

but then you've got to deal with all that stuff later. Interesting. So it sounds like you've gotten good at pushing yourself. past your comfort zone. But it's still a push. It's not easy. It requires a lot of effort. And I'm also hearing it has a cost.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's where the devaluing comes in. It's like, no, I should be capable of doing this by now. Like, why am I so bad? And sort of using that to overcome those emotions and just, I think that's the sort of toxicity of maybe toxic productivity mindset or, you know, I'm just beating myself up to get something done. Yeah. You really have been watching a lot of stuff and learning as well.

Yeah. So where are you? I mean, is that something that you want to talk about today or potentially something we can work on? Did you have thoughts about, you know, how this conversation or go? Is there something I can help you with today? No, I think what I wanted to take away, hopefully, was just how to maybe make that process a little easier on myself. But I'm not constantly struggling so much with everything that maybe be a little bit easier. maybe just to be more at peace with my decisions, not get so stressed out.

Okay. Can I just collect my thoughts for a second? Sure. I would really love to help you navigate that, Asriel. Let me just think about how to do that. Okay. Let me just toss a couple things out. Okay.

You let me know if we're kind of on the same page or not. So there's some kind of emotion. Let's say fear, lack of confidence, something like that. Excuse me. I made the mistake of having pizza for lunch. I've been eating healthier, but today. So, you know, you have some kind of emotion, right? Some kind of lack of confidence.

And then what happens is you practice some kind of frustration or self-loading. You start beating yourself up. You're saying, oh, I should. be better than this. And the interesting thing is that's somewhat of a double-edged sword because, like, if you feel ashamed, you can actually use shame as motivation. And you say, like, why am I so bad at this? I should just, I should be able to do it. And so then you force yourself, you push through that pile of emotion. There's one negative emotion that is keeping you from doing it. And then you kind of, you know, fill up your engines with shame. And then you use that shame to overcome. And then you

end up actually making progress in your life, which is great. But there's something incredibly like not peaceful about that, right? And this is where the toxic productivity comes in. Because when you use negative emotions to fuel your productivity, like there's a toxic feel to it. So, you know, I think what we can try to talk about today is like trying to understand how to disarm that negative emotion in to begin with. So the interesting thing is you may be able to cultivate better sources of motivation, but if we think about you need shame to succeed right now, you need it, right? And it's necessary to overcome that hump of whatever the negative emotion is.

So if we can process and get rid of what's underneath, you'll need shame less. And so you can learn an alternate fueling strategy or what you can do is require less fuel by like making the challenge a little bit better. And I do think that you're, you've clearly worked hard as real and you're pretty insightful. So I think that maybe like that's something that we could work on today. What do you think? For sure. And I'd also like to add, when I do disarm that sort of shame, it just means that I don't really do anything. that's where the thoughts of like, you know, what's the point?

Why bother start coming up? Yep. Right. So like you're saying like when I empty my engines, I don't move anywhere. We're like, absolutely, man. So it's tough. It's tough. Okay.

So the first thing that I just want to acknowledge is that if you keep doing what you're doing as real, I think you'll continue doing fine and you will eventually feel better. So like I do think that emotionally, it sounds like you actually have made a lot of progress. And so the first thing that I kind of want to point out to everyone is sometimes people ask like, despite making progress, why does it continue to be hard? And so this is where like I'm going to use like an online matchmaking analogy. Despite getting better at the game, why is my win rate still close to 50%? Right? So the challenge here, Asriel, is that you're getting better, but you're also like dealing. dealing with more. So as you

like, you know, start doing well in school and now you're looking for a job and like now you're doing therapy and like even like, you know, you're actually like the challenge is that you're leveling up, but like the monsters you're fighting are like leveling up with you. And it's not actually that they're leveling up with you. It's just that you're going deeper and deeper

into the game of life where things get harder and harder. So you're actually like objectively making progress. and like you're climbing that mountain, right? So like the better you get at climbing, the higher you go, the thinner the air gets. And what it feels like is like you're making no progress. So that's just the first thing to understand, okay? So like, you know, anyway.

So at some point you'll equilibrate out because, I mean, either you'll climb towards, I don't know what. But generally speaking, at some point, like you'll have, you know, like a job. Hopefully you'll have like a good relationship. Hopefully you'll have a good social circle. And then you kind of chill and then you like look back on your life and you're like,

wow, I've made a lot of progress. And actually I'm pretty happy. And even if we hear you talk, it sounds like in a lot of ways, you feel like really like confident in yourself. You can accept yourself and be proud of some of your accomplishments. And there's a bunch of crap still lingering down there. So we're going to get to that. I just wanted to share that.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that makes sense. So the reason it feels like, we're constantly struggle in not making progress is actually because we are progressing. So let me ask you when it comes to the job, okay, when you were, when they, I'm going to toss something out, I'm going to guess that the fact that no one called you may have been the worst part of the experience. What do you think about that? Yeah, I agree. There was no input. I couldn't gauge the situation, it was hard to tell, you know, if they were mad or if they were concerned,

if they even cared about me. I don't know. I felt like maybe I wasn't actually that important. Yeah. And so what do you, what do you, how do you understand that? I don't know. It's just think I am necessarily particularly important to anyone. but myself, really. I mean, it would be a little bit selfish to think that, you know, anyone else really cares about me. I mean, maybe my family, I guess. Maybe some people online, but it's mostly just me.

How does it feel to be unimportant to the rest of the world? I mean, it sort of sucks, I guess. Maybe I feel a little sad and lonely. like nothing I do is going to change that. I think that's sort of where the feelings of hopelessness comes from. Yeah. And I think also that feeds into, I have nihilistic thoughts. So sort of the belief that like, you know, what's the point of doing anything if I'm just going to die and no one's going to care, right?

Yeah, so I think somewhere along the way people, my understanding is that people have lost a big part of nihilism. Whereas I thought the point of nihilism is that you can't rely on an external objective standard for meaning and purpose. So it doesn't mean that there isn't any meaning and purpose. It means that you have to sort of carve it out yourself. and that like there isn't like a like there isn't like a you know omnipotent god that is going to give you meaning and that yeah yeah i agree um but i don't know i don't think i'd want anyone to i don't know i don't like the idea of some higher being controlling my life so before we get you know down the road of philosophy, which if you want to go down, we can.

I'm going to ask you, though, Asriel, how long have you felt, how long have you been unimportant? I don't know. Like, forever, maybe. Fourth grade, I guess. Why do you say fourth grade? Well, it might have been before that, too.

But in fourth grade, that was when my parents split up. And then it's the weirdest thing. My dad was driving me to school one day and like, you know, we show up to school and they're like, oh, you're not registered at this school anymore. And it turns out that my mom had just changed my school. So we had to show up at a different school and I had no idea.

My dad had no idea. And I don't know. I feel like from that point onward, things were different. So I was living between, you know, both people. parents switching houses. My mom was trying to find someone new. And, you know, my dad was always busy with work. You know, I had siblings and they were always better than me at everything.

So they always got credit. My mom eventually found someone new, but they, you know, they were dealing with their own problems. and they had a lot of maybe bad coping mechanisms. So, like, you know, they'd drink and they'd take out their frustration on us, which wasn't very nice. Um, I don't know. I just, I felt like I had to prove myself that I had to do everything just to get noticed. and I really feel too important in the chaos that turned out to be growing up.

How does it feel to talk about this stuff? I don't know. I can definitely feel there's an emotion down there of sadness maybe. I don't know. It's difficult. I sort of learned to do everything on my own, and I haven't really had anyone to help me along the way, which just sucks. Yeah, I'm sort of feeling an immense amount of pity.

What do you think about that? Oh, how would you describe pity? Great question. So I feel sorrow for the person that you, the kid that you used to be. Yeah, I think so. So when you say sadness, Is that sadness for yourself or sadness for your former self? Well, isn't to sort of both because my former self shaped who I am today.

Yeah. And in that sense, it's sort of like I'm still, you know, walking that path. So can you, can you tell me, okay, hold on. I'm trying to decide if I can do something a little bit unorthodox. with you, Asriel, because you've watched stream so much. So let's try to be a little bit unorthodox, okay? Can I, I'm going to need your help, because this may fail miserably. Okay?

So we'll fail together. So when you started talking about, you said your mom started looking for someone. And then you mentioned the person. And then the first thing that you said about them is they had their own struggles. What are you doing? Yeah. Maybe I'm deflecting the blame. Absolutely.

Right? So you've watched stream a fair amount. So when someone comes on and says, oh, they had their own struggles. Life was hard. They were addicted to alcohol. What does that person, what do we know about that situation? What can we infer about that situation? When someone comes on stream and starts saying things like that, protecting someone.

Am I allowed to protect them a little more? Yeah. So I don't think they were addicted to alcohol. I just think when they were in a bad mood, they had a tendency to drink a lot. Okay. Does that make things better or worse for you? Well, I think it's just how I was able to tell whether,

you know, whether I should be careful or not when I got home. how do you feel about blaming them? Well, it's hard because, like, you know, they can be abusive sometimes, but then sometimes, you know, they're sort of a great person, like, that is a mixed mixed bag, I guess. So it's hard to blame them when I can recognize that they're, that they're not all bad, right? if they were pure evil then it'd be easy

one would think and so I know this sounds kind of weird as real but like you know in my experience there's a certain amount of blame it's like almost like you know 100 points of blame in people's lives and generally speaking

it gets distributed right so I think some people who are like narcissistic will put 100 points of the blame on other people. And then you know where I'm going with this? Put a hundred points on myself. What do you think? Accurate.

Right? And it's kind of interesting because I think when we think about like a lack of like, you know, how long have you felt not valuable? Well, like, where does that feeling of not being valuable come? Like, how does that, you know, that feels to me very similar to the way that you, if you've been blaming yourself, every time you do that, you decrease your internal value.

And then when someone doesn't call you after you don't show up for a job interview, what your mind tells you is like, see, they didn't care about you anyway. Like, you're not even worth it. They don't give a shit. It doesn't matter what, like, I am, I have no impact on the outside world. They're going to live their lives and whether I'm there or not there, whether I exist or not exist. The world doesn't really care. No one really cares.

I'm insignificant. That's what your mind tells you. Yeah. Pretty much, yeah. So I think there are, how do you feel right now? Are you feeling okay? Yeah, I think I'm all right.

Okay. Let me know, okay? If we're pushing past your boundaries, if we get to that point, We're like, oh my God, I'm so weak. I should be able to have another session with Dr. K. You let me know if you start thinking that way, okay? All right.

Can I trust you there, bro? I like so. Okay, good. All right, let's keep going. So tell me a little bit about, do you know why your parents split up? Yeah, I talked to my mom a little bit about it. I think for her, she just didn't feel like she was getting. like there was no sort of emotional connection.

So maybe she felt a little emotionally neglected because my dad was always busy with work. And he is a very practical type of person, get things done, all that. So maybe he's very busy, I'd say. I mean, he runs his own engineering company, And that's a lot of work in itself. You know, he had a family.

He was a scout leader. So, yeah, he just does a lot. And maybe he didn't have as much time to spend with her. And maybe that made her feel a little bit neglected. So I notice you're providing reasoning again, right? So you're hypothesizing why he wasn't able to meet her emotional needs. I see that? Accurate.

I'm sure it's accurate. I don't. Is that what do you ever think about, did you feel like your dad was there for you emotionally? No. And why not? It's hard to describe. It's like, like he wasn't, he wasn't. Like he's always busy.

Of course he cares. Like if I had a problem, let's say I'm doing badly in school, there was no understanding, there was no connection. It was just like you need to do better, like get your work done. Like this is unacceptable, you know, smart enough. I think there was no understanding there, I guess. And what do you think about that? Well, I know that I'm going to provide reasons why. you know, and then deflect the blame, but I just don't want to blame him for it because, I don't know.

Why don't you want to blame him? Good. So let's, you're doing well, Asriel. I'm not going to force you to blame him. Do you feel like I'm bashing your dad? No. Okay. I don't know.

I just, I respect him. He does. I may be a tiny bit, but. Yeah. He does a lot of stuff. and he is a very hard worker. It's hard to blame him. He's doing everything he can.

Where does that leave you that he's doing everything that he can but tells you to smarten up when you're struggling? Yes, I just learned to deal with it. And how did you learn to deal with it? By getting things done. Yeah, right? Pushing through, setting aside your feelings. Who cares?

your emotions have no value Asriel smarten up push through screw your boundaries sound familiar it's the same philosophy he applies to himself

he pushes himself a lot too and I'm noticing that it can be quite so I think there's a lot of not confusion but there's a lot of complexity which you're able to appreciate right when it comes to your sounds like your stepfather

my actual father I know but earlier we were talking about your stepfather the one who drinks sometimes yeah yeah right so like you can your mind does a really good job of like noticing the good and the bad which is actually healthy right you're not going to like say like oh this guy was a complete asshole and in the devil incarnate

there were times where it sounds like he was like a cool dude and maybe did care about you or something like that and then when it comes to your dad it's like you know, that's like he did a lot of good stuff. He pushed through a lot of things. You know, like he worked really hard. He like built an engineering company. There's a lot here that I can honestly respect.

And you're also able to acknowledge though that like, did he care about you? Yes. Did he love you? Obviously. Was he there for you? Not really. How does it? You want to push back against that?

Or what do you think about what I just said? I think that's pretty accurate. You said he was a scout leader? Yeah. What does that mean? A scout leader, like in America it's boy scouts, but in Canada it's all-inclusive. I think, and sort of the reason he did that was, you know, he wanted us to get into scouting and learn it because, you know, it provides. a lot of value for growth and learning.

So I think that was part of it. And I think he was doing it for us. But at the same time, when you're a scout leader, you can't have favoritism over your kids because that's just bad for the group. So no, I was just treated like everyone else. Okay, too easy, Asriel. What are you doing?

So you do this thing, right? You're just talking about scouts and what do you say? It wasn't important that he didn't, it wasn't there for me. Yep. Let's back up a little bit and connect those dots. I think that's where we were going. But so you're good. You've been watching paying attention.

I don't know if chat was able to follow. But let's think through this, right? So I'm going to ask you now, be careful. Because like you started talking about scouts and you were like, he's not allowed to show favoritism. Fuck, where does that come from? What does that have to do with anything? Right? It's what you told yourself when what happened.

No, he told that to me. Okay. Oh, interesting. And how did it feel having your dad as a scout leader? You were presumably in scouts? Yeah. Right. I don't know.

I think I just sort of accept it as reality. I don't really think about what it's like. I know it's pretty cool actually I mean it's a pretty cool dad as a scout leader so maybe he there wasn't any negative emotion there

I'm curious did you ever feel jealous when you were in scouts no okay so you didn't have because sometimes people like will have these kinds of thoughts or feelings where you know if they didn't feel this way you know don't say yes but

sometimes you know I can imagine that you're a kid who feels maybe a little bit undervalued and so that your mind would notice things, which actually may have been completely fair, right? He's not supposed to give you more or less attention. But if your mind was kind of hungry for attention from your dad, that maybe you noticed he was like supporting other kids and like you wanted him to support you the same way.

Though I think it was very much like equal. Like, yeah. So you thought it was equal and fair and you felt like emotionally okay with that. Yeah, I accepted it for what it was. And what was it? It was just being a leader and, you know, helping the group,

learn and grow and learn new skills, and I was part of the group. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you're very proud of your dad. Yeah, for sure. Also sounds like maybe you felt proud of being your dad's son. Yeah. I can imagine that it can be hard or confusing to, even now, it sounds like you respect your dad a lot and you feel proud of him.

Yeah. Do you feel proud to be his son? Yeah, sure. I never thought about it, but yeah, I guess so. Okay. I'm a little bit confused by your response because you seem pretty, like I can imagine, like you sort of hinted that like, you know, you, like everyone in the troop knew that you're, dad was pretty cool because he was a scout leader and he knew all this stuff. So actually I'm feeling like a sense of pride there.

When I ask you now, what I'm hearing is a logical answer. Okay. Does that make sense? Like I can I can I can almost feel the pride that you felt as a kid. Like you guys are out doing scout stuff and you're like, yeah, that's my dad. I'm not I'm not hearing that same thing. I definitely hearing a lot of respect for what he's built. for sure, right?

An understanding and appreciation of the challenges that he's faced and how he's like continued to persevere through those challenges, absolutely. Is he proud of you? Yeah, I think so. I don't think I ever thought that he was proud of me until recently. It's sort of like I left for a university and then, you know, things just changed. What changed? I don't know.

I was the youngest child in the family, so once I left, you know, he sort of, you know, he stopped being a scout leader. He started looking for a wife, or not a wife, but a girlfriend, someone else to live with. and then I don't know as he's being a lot more supportive and less sort of aggressive

like aggressive towards me and my achievements um though he doesn't I talk to him and I it's weird

because he doesn't seem to acknowledge that anything has changed yeah can I I try to interpret what I heard, maybe try to string together a couple of those dots. So I'm almost hearing that like maybe your dad like, like his role as father was like almost like a grind for him. It was like a duty. You know, he had to make sure that you guys got to a certain point. It's almost like he didn't have the space to be like proud and chill.

It's like we got to get Asriel to college. We got to. got to do this, we got to do this. Like, it's about, like, getting them to where they need to go in a very objective sense. And, like, feelings are, like, no room for feelings. Yeah, I think he sacrificed a lot for us. And now that there's space for it, he's kind of chilling a little bit, maybe feels more proud of you? I guess. I don't know.

Maybe. Has he ever said to you that he's proud of you? No, not openly. What would it be like to hear that? I don't know if that's, I don't know if that would actually do anything. Okay. What makes you think that? I just, like, great, he's proud of me, now what?

Good. It doesn't solve anything. What are we trying to solve? What's the problem? My life. And what aspects of your life? me failing at everything. Do you fail at everything?

Absolutely. That's how it, that's my approach. I, I just brute force it and I fail like every time and, you know, if I just do it enough times,

eventually I'll get through. You know, I just power through everything. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm a little bit confused. Um, would you, could you ever ask your dad if he was proud of you?

I don't think so. Like, why would I do that? I was just looking for validation. That's feeding a particular beast, is it not? Give me a second, Ezrail. I think we've stumbled upon a big problem. But give me just a second. Because I trust that you're a smart dude and I trust you're familiar with these concepts.

So I got to figure out. Okay, here's where I'm coming. coming from, okay, bro? I don't think you're, I don't, I think you're doing well on the outside world. Like the whole premise of this conversation is like you're making outward progress, but internally it still feels bad. So like the first thing that's weird is like I think we've run into some kind of, you know, like when you're playing a game and like the boss is at 20% health and they like

develop some kind of combo breaker super shield kind of thing. where you're on your way there and then like something pops up and then they like turn into some other boss and they've like morphed. I feel like that's what just happened. Because I thought the whole premise of this conversation, I realized we're being intellectual. So this may not be helpful, but like I want you to notice this with me that like I thought the premise of this conversation is that outside as your therapist puts it, you're thriving in a pandemic. I mean, are you, you know, have you started a billion dollar company? sounds like no. And at the same time...

I'll get there one day. Absolutely, man. So like you'll, you'll, you'll, like you're back in school. You know, you have gotten, gotten through, the way in which you failed to find a job is progressing.

Right? You got a job. You didn't, you know, it was hard. So like, you're still like, you're working on. And actually, I'm not worried about the outside world. What I think this conversation is about

is this unshakable feeling that you have, that you are not working. them think, right? That like you're not valuable. I think I have value. It's what I can accomplish and do

for people around me. No, it isn't. So I know this sounds perplexing but you have intrinsic value. You don't have to believe me. You don't have to disagree. It's just what I believe. It's a belief. So I think what

you were taught is that like your value is like dependent on your accomplishments. Right? That like your dad like when you didn't do a good job like he didn't like demonstrate to you that I still care about you in a very like explicit way. Right. He was like you need to do better. Then I shall love you.

There's a part of you that knows that isn't true. But like there are some signals that he sent you that sort of like created that complex. Does that make sense? I mean, you even say. when you talk about your siblings. You're like, you know, I had to work so much harder to get recognized because they were better than I was.

There's a lot of like conditionality to like the love. Right? So like your value is a person even when it comes to your stepdad like fluctuated. If your dad was in a bad mood, there's no intrinsic value. Actually.

And so like the way that your stepdad treated, you actually taught you that there's no constant sense of value. like the way you get treated fluctuates depending on all kinds of external things. Does that make sense? I'm a little confused about you were talking about how it fluctuates with my stepdad. I think I always recognize that what he was doing was wrong and it just became like a 40 chess game, a 40 social chess game trying to get him to not, you know, get set off. I think I recognize that that was sort of an abusive, toxic relationship and that, you know, I don't think that was, I based my value on what he thought.

Thank you very much for clarifying that. So let me take a different angle. So like, if we go back to your fourth grade school example, right? like the what I really interpreted there was that your mom sort of didn't care like she didn't think about your inconvenience and embarrassment well I think the idea was that my brother was going to the other school because he got in the gifted program and I didn't and then she was sort of thinking well why don't I just go to that school too but she never really told anyone and yeah part of that It's probably because she was pretty, probably emotional at the time.

And what are you doing? Yeah. Okay. I can't help it. Yeah. No, you're right. You can't help it. So it's, I'm not, I'm not telling you to stop.

I think it's just, it's what your mind is doing. So you're, you're absolutely right, man. Like, it's, it's like a very reasonable thing for your mom to do that, right? She's like, let's have my two kids together. One kid got into the gifted program, so I'm going to move the other kid. Totally fine. Like, I don't think it's any, like, moving you to another school is completely logical. I have no issue with that.

The question is, how did you feel the day that you showed up at your old school? I think I just accepted that this is my life now. I go to a no school and I go to figure out how to fit it. Yep. So I think acceptance is absolutely right. Because what I'm hearing there, honestly, and you can push back if you want to, I may be wrong. Right. So by all means, correct me.

Like, what I'm hearing is that, like, you're kind of an afterthought, right? Like, it's one thing to move you. Like, even if we say, like, okay, your brother got into the gifted and talented program, we're going to move you anyway. But, like, at least let you know. Like, I could just, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of a fourth grader who shows up at their class. And their teacher is, like, you're no longer a student here. Like, can you, like, that sounds so devastatingly embarrassing to me.

Like, it sounds like bewildering and, like, clueless. Now, I don't even know if you went into the classroom and you got told by your teacher or like, you know, someone met you. Like, I don't know. But like what I'm kind of noticing is like inconsiderateness. It's like they don't even think about you. It's almost like your mom didn't like think to tell you, hey, by the way. Like she, there's no space in her mind like for, I'm not trying to be brutal here. But like, you know, what I'm sort of noticing, it's almost like the same thing at work.

It's like, does anyone even notice if I don't show up? It's like a lack of noticing, right? Like, it's a lack of, like, like, I'm getting the sense, Asriel, I can see you're getting maybe a little bit emotional. But like, what I'm getting is like you were taught this lesson that like you're not worth thinking about. Yeah. I think that's a common theme. Right? And it's like, it's amazing to see you progress, like, especially in the high performance group where it's like, I don't belong here.

And it's like objectively like, you know, you can make a. good argument for that, but you absolutely belong there. And the objectivity of it doesn't matter. And like, you've been able to see, like, you know, even though there's like, there are people who are quite advanced in their careers here who are very successful, like, I can still make a meaningful contribution. Like, that's intrinsic value, right? That like, no matter what your circumstances are, no matter who you're around, whether the successful, unsuccessful, you have value. And so I think what we're working on here is not anything to do. And, do with the outside success because I think that you're doing you learn how to push through like

you're crushing it bro good you have ways to go absolutely but are you making progress absolutely what we're talking about here is that like feeling on the inside at least that's what i that's what i'm focusing on it's your you tell me otherwise but and and this is where like i think it's going to be tricky because i think what's what i'm detecting is a sense of like lack of intrinsic value. The first question I think I asked you is, how long have you felt like, I don't know exactly what it was, that you weren't worth much? You say forever. So it's something you carry with you. And we can go through these different stories about, you know, now that your dad, and so then when I ask you the question, like, is your dad proud of you? You're like, I don't know what difference

that would make. Dude, it's going to make all the difference. I think I'd know how to process that, even if he did say it. You're damn right. You don't. which is the entire problem, right? Because, like, how do you process that which you've never heard before? And if we think about, like, what's the problem here? It's that, like, I know it sounds kind of weird, but, like, you know, this is sometimes what happens when kids aren't told that you're proud of them. Or is they carry this thing where you're just not sure what your intrinsic value was.

And you're like, how can words make a difference? And I'm not sure. I mean, I just, and this is where I think I think you're incredibly frightened. of asking him, too. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And so if we think about that, like, we can see that sort of doesn't, if you, if what he says doesn't matter, why on earth are you scared of asking him?

Maybe I just don't want to look like a fool. Yep. I think you're afraid of two things. One is that he's going to say no. And probably more likely is he's not going to know how to answer the question. What do you think about that? What do you mean when, like, you say he won't know how to answer it? So in the same way that you don't know how to process his answer, he may not know how to process the question.

Because it sounds like that's not, you know, a scout badge that you guys ever got. Right? Like emotional discussions between father and son about, like, what he, what you mean to him is like just something that you guys aren't. familiar with. I think he has express that he cares a lot about me. Ah, that's completely different though. Okay. Right? I know it sounds similar, but let's be clear.

I can care a lot about someone. But being proud of them is completely different. Okay. There's a reason I'm not asking about love, right? I'm not asking, does your dad love you? Because I know he loves you. You know he loves you. That's clear. Like, he's done a good job with that. He's sacrificed for you. You know, you mean a lot to him. Like, I'm not hearing that at all. And that sounds weird. But, like, you know, for some people, that's the issue. But for you, I think it's about pride. It's about value. It's about worth. You know, like, like, at the end of the day, when you strip away all of your accomplishments is like, are you worth something? I guess I'd say not really Yeah

I think I can see that you believe that And so when it comes to like nihilism And when it comes to like, you know Using frustration as fuel like I think as long as you feel that way Like that's Gonna be tough I think also I had a conversation with him recently

and like that was you know I explained that I was having a rough time and whatever and in the past but like this time I was sort of talking about you know how I always feel I need to accomplish everything and like with the job how I didn't show up and he was just like dude it's a summer job like, are you being so hard on yourself? And then he sort of up my dad. Okay. And then it was sort of like, like, where did I go wrong? Like, where did I mess up that, you know, you ended up this way?

Is that what he said to you? Yeah. And then I was like, no, I don't think you messed up. I think, you know, that was just me learning to be me. and I think it was something that I taught myself. I think I was just deflecting the blame. Help me understand how you interpret that interaction with your dad. It was just, I don't know, I guess it was a little bit relieving.

Maybe that, you know, he didn't, you know, push me, like, you know, I was the only one pushing myself that he's not really pushing. me anymore to succeed or whatever. So it's nice to let that go. And yes, sort of. Asriel, I need a minute, okay? All right. Okay, I'm going to ask you to take a step back from that.

Like, let's really pay attention to what was said, okay? And I'm noticing that maybe I'm trying to bludgeon you into believing something. Does it feel that way to you? I don't think you can bludgeon me into believing anything if I don't want to. I completely agree, but does it feel like you're being bludgeoned? Not saying it's working. I'm asking what it feels like. I don't know what you're trying to get me to believe. Great. Do you feel like I'm getting you to believe anything?

I'm like pushing you to believe something? Maybe something about intrinsic value in that my dad is proud of me or something. Okay, okay. Okay, good. All right. So like, let's listen to that statement, okay? So like, I'm just going to tell the story back as I heard it because it was a surprising story to me. So you didn't show up for your summer job. You go to your dad and you say, hey, by the way, I didn't show up for my summer job. Fair enough so far?

And then he's like, where did I screw up with you? No. What did he say? It's more like, well, it was, I didn't show up. You know, I've felt no incredibly, you know, I have. I had an emotional breakdown. I was incredibly nervous. And he was like, you know, why are you pushing yourself so hard?

It's just a summer job. Like, it's only so much you can do. And then, you know, where did I go wrong with you? Or like, no, I mentioned, you know, how I have this performance versus growth mindset and trying to get out of the performance mindset. that he's like, I never taught you that, like, you know, where if you learn that, where I go wrong with you. Okay. What do you, what do you, how do you understand the statement where did I go wrong with you?

I think he's trying to put the blame on himself, maybe. And then I'm not allowing that. Yeah. So I completely agree. So here's what like, I think is problematic. So I think this is like some weird stuff. So Asriel, what I'm about to say, there are multiple interpretations of. Number one interpretation is that I've got something in my mind and I'm not willing to let that go or change that.

So I could be wrong here. So I'm going to just toss this out because like this story is becoming, this is getting a little bit more and more unexpected. So like I think there's something very supportive about that. And also like something incredibly damaged. So like, on the supportive side is the reason you're screwed up is because it's my fault and I wasn't good enough of a dad. And that's better than the reason you're screwed up is because of something that you did. The problem, though, and this is like what I'm trying to bludgeon you to understand, is that irrespective of who's to blame, there's a fundamental assumption that you're screwed up. Like, do you see that?

it's like where did I go wrong that my son ended up like this like that is the opposite of pride right so like is he like growing and doing better and like trying to be like compassionate and understanding and like is he not so he's grown right like so he's doing better because he's not just saying just be better bro he's like where did I go wrong so I get what you're saying and I do think it's like growth on his part I don't think your dad is bad dude by any means. It's just like, I want you to think about when a parent thinks that way about a child, even if they accept responsibility for it, what does it signal to the child about their intrinsic worth? Yes, that's a feedback loop. So it's sort of confirming. Right? And so

that what? Yeah, that I messed up maybe. Yep. And so if we think about what do you use toxic productivity to get over, it's that you're messed up, right? And like, I don't think your dad is, honestly, I don't think he's a bad dude. Like, it's clear to me that he loves you a lot. He's made a lot of sacrifices. It's clear to me that you love him. Like, you know, we haven't gotten to your mom or your siblings and what it's like to have siblings who are in the gifted and talented program and you're not and things like that, right? So, like, there are a lot of reasons. Like, Asrael, I think the problem is not that you're stupid. I think the problem is that you're smart. the problem is that like you look around at the world and you see older siblings who are in the

gifted and talented program and you see yourself and you're not the problem is that you look around at the world and you see like other people who are able to do things that you're not able to do and the problem is that your parents see that too and that's a given in their mind and i think it's those little statements which if he's saying that now like i'm curious what did he say to you in high school? What did he say to you before? You know, it sounds like he said push through, push through, push through. But what I'm really not hearing is that like he's been proud of what you've accomplished. Whereas I am hearing that like you're starting to be proud in what you've accomplished. Like you're not comparing yourself to other people. What I'm hearing you learned in group is people like even when you are not proud of yourself, they are proud for you. Does that make sense? And so how do you learn pride in yourself? It's because. Because like when you don't feel proud of yourself, but you have done something to be proud of, other people are proud for you. And when they said that to you, like for the first time, Asriel, how did you feel?

I think I denied it. Absolutely. Because your entire life, you've been taught that you're not someone to be proud of. And you're a smart kid. So you learned that lesson. And now you carry it with you. And it takes time and effort. Like you've already started to put your life together,

but it's, I think you really, like, it's hard to learn how to be proud of yourself. Because when you say your dad doesn't know how to respond to that statement, neither do you. It's like a foreign concept. Like, Asriel is a good human being who makes the world a better place. It's like a foreign concept.

I can logically give you a thousand reasons, maybe even convince you. Like, I could say that, like, Asriel, do you sometimes wonder if the world wouldn't not necessarily be a better place, but just that if you ceased to exist, the world would not bat an eyelash. Do you ever think that way? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Right? So, like, watch for it.

So, like, you showed up here in March of 2020, and you took. the waste of space that is Asriel, you showed up, we had a conversation. And I could say that thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people benefited from you showing up there. And that you're showing up today and you're being waste of space, Asriel, and thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people who have had parents like yours who have loved them but never been proud of them are beginning to realize this.

They're beginning to realize that, like, oh, my God, the way that I think about myself is because, even though my parents loved me, like, their disappointment in me was a given. And if I were to tell you that you have made all of their lives a tiny bit better in the same way that every person who has come on stream has made your life a tiny bit better, what would you say to that?

I don't know. I guess that's a good thing. Okay. Guess it's a good thing? Yes, it is. And who made that good thing possible? You see how hard it is? It's so fucking hard, isn't it?

You're like, you're trying so hard not to admit it, even though, like, logically you're trapped in a corner. It's like, you feel that? It's like you can't have value. like tell me I'm wrong if that's what you want to tell me tell me I'm wrong

explain it to me give me all the reasons why those people are benefiting why every person on stream has helped you and that help has been real but you are incapable of helping anyone in the audience tell me say whatever you want don't let me bludgeon you fight back I don't know

how early have anything to fight back with it's just heard to comprehend maybe. Yeah. So that's good, Asriel. That's really good, actually.

You can fight back if you feel like it. If your mind is telling, but when I fight back, I mean, like, if your mind is saying things to you that you're, like, dismissing, you can share those things. But is it saying things to you?

No. Okay. How did it feel, how did it feel to hear me say that? That you are making a world, the world a better place by being you and showing up here. To be honest, I try not to think about it. Good. That just makes me nervous. That's what I'll be helping. It seemed to me like you got a little emotional while I was, you know, talking. Yeah, I guess it just came out. What emotion was

that? I had trouble telling if that was a bad emotion or a good emotion. I don't know. Just I don't know. Okay. I think it was good. Yeah, so I think that's... I've never had anyone do that before. Do what before? Maybe validate my experience or like, you know, show me what I'm actually doing, but it matters.

Yeah, so my hope is. is that it was a good emotion. I think it was a good emotion. And I understand why it may have been confusing to you because that is what feeling valued feels like. Right? So if I, I don't really know. I'm not, I mean, I can't see your emotions. But like, generally speaking, what I was doing in that moment was like appreciating you for who you are and being like grateful that like you exist. And it's it's kind of sad. But like, sometimes. people don't know what that feels like. Right? So it can be confusing the first time we feel in motion.

I don't know if that's actually what you felt or not, but like in this moment, I'm deeply grateful that you are the person that you are. I don't want you to be better. I don't want you to be worse. I don't want you to be smarter. I don't want you to be anything except for what you are. Because what you are is like absolutely enough. Like that's the premise of what we do here. is that you can be as broken or as perfect as you want to be. You can be a gigantic streamer or you can be someone from our community. And you can come here and what you are can make the world a better place.

I want to, I don't think it's that I make the world a better place if I just come here and I don't do anything. Like I have to do something, talk about something. I agree. that's what I appreciate. Like, I appreciate what you showed up here, like how you showed up here, and that you haven't been AFK for the last hour and a half. Right? Like, if you had been AFK, like, it's been hard, dude.

Like, you've come here and you've done something hard. That's what I appreciate. Like, I don't care about, I mean, have you achieved a good result? I think so. But even if you hadn't, I think it's the showing up that matters. What do you? Help me understand where you are mentally right now. I don't.

I mean, I'm understanding you, but I don't feel anything about it. That's okay. I think that's all we can hope for, actually. So I think you felt something a little while ago, and I think that's enough. So here's what I'd say, do you have questions, Asriel? No, I can't think of anything right now. Okay. So, is it okay if I try to summarize?

I mean, we can, in my mind, I think we've reached a good stopping point. How do you feel? What time is it? Well, I mean, we still have time. We've got about 15, 20 minutes left. Oh. What? That one fast.

Yeah, we've been at this for an hour and a half. Okay. If it's okay with you, I'd like to kind of summarize why I feel this is a good stopping point and maybe like try to share with you what my experience of this conversation is. And then I definitely want to, you know, if there are things that we didn't get to, I want to give you the space to say, hey, what about this, this or this? Or I still want to know about this. Okay. Is that cool?

All right. So first of all, you showed up here in March of 2020. and you were struggling. You were overthinking a lot. You were very outcome-oriented. You didn't have a whole lot of confidence in yourself. You didn't really know how to take action. It sounds like you've made immense,

you've spent a lot of time and energy in growing as a person. You did coaching. Seems like that was good. Coaching helped you get into therapy. So it sounds like maybe you had some concerns about going to therapy and things like that. and maybe coaching helped you kind of overcome those,

which is one of the outcomes of coaching that we're actually studying now, is helping people get into therapy. You did therapy for a while. It sounds like you found like a pretty good CBT therapist, but that your sessions were a little bit short. They helped you. You came in with a goal. They helped you kind of accomplish that goal.

But it also sounds like some of the emotional work that you were hoping to do, you really didn't get a chance to do in therapy. Yeah. I think part of that was just that I didn't, because it was about the out, like, finishing school and all that more than it was about, I guess it was about feeling better as well. I don't know. I mean, it was mixed. Yes, like I said, you've said several times that the goals of the therapy that you set out for were accomplished. And at the same time, I'm noticing that maybe you wanted something.

a little bit more. But that financial constraints also kind of limited what you were able to do in therapy. So you came back to us. You found yourself in the high performance group and being a little bit confused and maybe feeling out of sorts, but that you've learned how to be confident essentially, right? And recognize that like even though objectively you may not fit in some ways, that you have value in the group and you can make meaningful contributions. even though you're still a student and some people in there have started companies with you. So now when you came on here, we were talking about this pattern, right, that you've actually started to make a lot of progress in your outward life.

You're actually in the process of putting your life together in a very real way. You've finished two years of college. You are trying to get a job or you got a job. You didn't show up and whatnot. That's okay. once again, you know, you're on your journey. And the main thing that maybe you could use help with is that even though you've started to push aside some of those negative feelings, you actually, through your own introspective

work, have discovered that you have some degree of toxic productivity, that you kind of like push past some of those feelings and you actually use shame and like a sense of like, oh, I'm so pathetic to drive yourself forward in a very like outward way, but that there's still this internal stuff that like is hard to deal with. Although I'm hearing that on a day-to-day mood basis that you're actually feeling like somewhat better than a year ago. So yeah. Can I just add like, um, I was wondering you mentioned at the beginning that there was another way to overcome that hump without the shame. I was just wondering, you know,

what that was. Yeah. So there's alternate coping mechanisms. to overcome the negative emotion, and there is lowering the burden of negative emotion. So the alternate coping mechanisms would be like, let me just think of an example. So like a simple, like, so when we talk about Dharma, right, like you can do things out of Dharma or you can do them out of toxic productivity. Okay.

So that's sort of like, you know, you show up to the job and you just see what you can do. type of thing. Yeah, so that I think is more action orientation, but not see what you can do. That's a step in the right direction. That's moving away from an outcome orientation to an action orientation. I would say, Dharma is like when you show up, like you're showing up for like a reason besides toxic productivity. So like this is where, this is where like, you know, you show up and then you kind of say

to yourself, I'm not saying you should say this. It's just the only thing that comes to your mind. let's say hypothetically you're going to come on stream one year later. And then like what you're saying is like, I need to like learn how to do this so that when I share things with people who are like where I was, I can like help them understand what this process is like. I have to learn how to be okay in this job so that if I ever meet someone else who's like struggling like I can help them. Like I get that you want to be a marine biologist, but let's say like you decided you wanted to become a psychologist. and if you want to help people who's, you know, who are struggling with that. Like, you have some broader, like, purpose that matters to you.

So you can say, like, okay, I need to make money so that I can support XYZ. So there are motivations besides toxic productivity, basically. Okay. And then what we did today was talking about sort of how I haven't felt pride. and then that would be dealing with the bumps that I have to overcome. Absolutely, right? So, like, what is that emotional energy that you have to overcome with toxic productivity? And that, I think, is, so you mentioned a bunch of emotions, right?

You said sadness. Oh, I realize that there's sadness and there's fear and there's, you know, shame. But based on talking to you, what I'm really hearing is that, like, somewhere, like, really at the core of it, I think Asriel is, like, just the sense that you're not worth much. you know, and I think that there have been times in your life, and it didn't, it didn't take you long to kind of say, how long have you felt that way, fourth grade? And I think that's when it started. Like, that's like the first time that I don't think you understood that then, but when I ask you the question now, like, you're able to go back to fourth grade and kind of say, this is the first time that, like, I really felt like someone didn't bother to think about me. I don't think it was the first time. I think it was just a more extreme example. Okay. So that's even more devastating, right? Because that means it happened before that. And so then we kind of got to talking a little bit about like, you know, how did you come to believe that you aren't worth being proud of? And so this is where we got into the dad bashing. Once again, I'm not trying to bash your dad. It's just I think sometimes as parents, we all do this. Like I do this to my kids. We say things to them that have psychological impacts because no one is a perfect parent. and the psychological impacts despite the love, despite the caring, despite the sacrifice, because it sounds like objectively your dad was a really good dad.

You respect him a lot. You love him a lot. It sounds like he started to like reshape his life and even put his romantic interests aside to care for you guys. And, you know, we're not even going to get to like what he thought about your stepdad and whether he heard about that and all that kind of crap. but well I you definitely thought that you know my stepdad

was a bit of a meathead yeah so I'm hearing that your dad really put his life on hold and made a lot of sacrifices to try to help you guys as much as possible that he's actually a really good dad

and he never told you he was proud of you and that even though he blames himself it's still sort of like he's still sort of like he's still kind of believes that you're kind of like, you know, you're in the bargain bin of children,

which is like such a devastating thing to feel, right? There's the gifted and talented siblings, and then there's you. And so, like, I think that, like, it's devastating. It makes me feel like an asshole saying that phrase. I've never said that before, but it feels so devastating. And if that's what you kind of grew up with, that's why you believe that about yourself. Right? You've been conditioned. and now hopefully through group and some of these other experiences you can learn to actually recognize and like even when I sort of said like Asriel like you are making the world a better place by existing. I mean not just by existing because like you're doing more than existing right even if you may not have become quote unquote overwhelming successfully successful

the fact that you are on this journey and the fact that you do put yourself outside of your comfort zone and like you do genuinely enrich and and improve the world around you. And it's not because of performance. It's like because you just show up and you give it all you've got. And that's all the world needs from you. It's just for you to be you and give it all you've got. The world doesn't need you to be you and give it nothing.

Right? Then you really are like not delivering value. Well, when I show up and I give it all I got, um, you know, I often feel like it's not, enough. Yeah.

That's the intrinsic value, isn't it? Absolutely. Well, perfect. Right? Because like, because you're starting from a basis of like, I'm in the bargain bin. And so like, no matter like how good of a fine you get in the bargain bin, as long as you remember, oh, I got this from the bargain bin, you're going to actually like, you know, it's like a little bit scuffed. Got it on discount. Whereas no, like, it's a steal, dude.

It's like worth every penny and worth way more than I paid for it. Your value is actually far above what you estimate it to be. And so going forward, I encourage you to really like, you know, ask yourself when as you start to introspect and you start to feel these negative emotions, like, does this come back to, you know, I'm not valuable? And to try to see, and this is going to be the really hard part is like there are going to be times in your life. where you are valuable. And I think you've started to discover this. But even if I tell you, you're going to push back. Like, when you show up in group, like, you help people.

What do you think about that? It's so hard. Oh, my God. You told me earlier in this conversation that I realized now that I can still make contributions. Yeah, but it's... But, yeah, right, it's so hard. I don't know if those contributions help necessarily. Yes, beautiful, right?

I make contributions, but oh, they're not as valuable as other people's. It's so hard to just be like, no, you're, you do good, damn you. And that's me bludgeoning you. So it's going to take time. So be patient with yourself, Astridel. Be patient, okay? Like, it's fine to have that voice. It's fine to, like, no matter what we send it, just see how it's, like, always going to, like,

contort and twist and just like devalue like because like that it just doesn't compute in your mind right like it doesn't compute in your mind that you could show up somewhere and like have an impact on other human being it's like um it's like i'm in the matrix i'm neo dodging the bullets absolutely dude and just like the matrix it's completely op it's like busted it's completely unfair to those of us who are sending you the bullets of appreciation It's like we don't stand a chance against that, man. Yeah, you're dodging. You're really good.

And I think, you know, you do this a lot, right? So then the last thing that I'll kind of leave you with is this sort of idea of like what amount to blame. And just be careful about where you assign it and how you protect people. Because like, dude, come on, man. Like I'm pretty sure that. So Chad is learning. This blows my mind. I'm pretty sure that when when you literally said that your stepdad.

you know, had a lot of challenges. Like, everyone knew that abuse was coming. Like, you know, like, we've heard it enough times. Right? Like, let's not even get started on your mom. And, like, we just had an interview, like, on Wednesday about, you know, blaming the good parent for, or trying really hard not to hold the good parent responsible for, like, letting the bad parent do things to you.

And just to add to that, I think in the end, she, did start to stand up for us, you know, there was a breakup and then he moved out for a bit and then they went to a therapist and tried to work through it and they got back together. So there is definitely growth on her part too. Yeah, yeah. Good. What does that mean for you? I don't know.

Right? So like this is still here. Yeah. So like there's a part of me that wants to say too little too late. but you'll push back against that right i think you said that last time too what was i talking about your mom oh well you're talking about that relationship same thing okay pretty much anyway we don't have to get into it but that's that's where like i think so as real i think like dude you're well on your journey it sounds like you've made a lot of external change and and what i really think

is that something tells me that I don't know if you're interested in a romantic relationship, if you're in a romantic relationship, but like this is the kind of thing that as you start to work on, I think a romantic relationship will become more available and also like easier to exist within. Okay. But I think when it comes to dating,

like if people who feel intrinsically like they have very little value, have a lot of trouble in dating, because it's very confusing when someone seems to be, genuinely interested in them. And then they're just like, they don't know like, like, you know that when I tell you something and you like, you just can't, you just got to say button. And like, so that, so this is the kind of thing where I think like continue growing man and just kind of notice this.

Like, you know, continue making the world a better place as you are and like, you know, learn how to be proud of yourself. And then if one day, you know, if you grow up here, you can ask your dad if he's proud of you. And it may be a hard question that ask and it may be a hard question to answer, but we'll get there one day. I was joking about growing a pair. I think you're actually very brave. It was a Twitch meaming. Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't sure if that would be interpreted the wrong way, because it just occurred to me that maybe with the way that you interpret things. Thoughts, questions before we wrap up? I think that's about it. In regards to their relationship

I don't have one and I'm not currently looking. I think there's definitely a lot of fear and confusion around that as well. Yeah. I think you're right. Yep. So I think as you work through this, the relationship will come. So don't worry about it. Just keep walking what you're walking and I'm confident that you'll end up happy

and in a place where you're good. All right. Do you want to meditate? we can try it. I've done some of your meditations on previous streams, but I haven't noticed it have much an effect on me. Would you, can you help me understand what your experience of those meditations is? I think sometimes maybe I feel something a little bit,

but it's, like I know sometimes chat mentions, you know, they had this crazy experience. and for me it's like, I don't know, nothing really changed that much. I still feel the same way. Okay. Maybe my thoughts are a little less, but. What usually happens when you meditate? What's your experience of meditating?

I think maybe I get a little bit calmer. Maybe a little more relaxed, but nothing, no. Nothing big. Do you think when you make? meditate? Sometimes. I guess it depends on the meditation. All right, let me think. I was thinking if you had anything to say when I get extremely anxious or something, something that could like ground me in that moment so I don't get carried away. What happens when you get extremely anxious? Tell me about that. I think I just like my mind wanders. I start thinking about everything.

You know, I try to prepare as much as I can. I get early stressed. That's where, you know, I have that nervous meltdown in front of the job side. That's where I try to suppress it with frustration towards myself. Okay. Have you tried practicing Kabbal Bhati or the rapid exhalations? Have you done that before? Yeah, I think so.

So I would say, and how many, okay, so let's, for people for whom meditation hasn't really worked on stream, let's just go through a couple of basics, okay? The first is that meditation is a skill that sometimes requires practice. So what we try to do on stream, so the reason we teach different meditation techniques on stream is because different people will naturally, hopefully have a good experience in meditation using a problem. using a particular technique. The challenge is that, you know, when it comes to the scope of techniques that I teach, I teach probably like 10 to 15% of what I would use with people that I work with on a regular basis. And that's because these are the techniques which are like easy, accessible, and you can't really screw up.

They also, so there's like a whole host of other techniques which are, you know, more dangerous, but are also more powerful. There's a whole host of techniques that require more guidance or like subsequent amounts of teaching to really anchor people in a practice. So we're really kind of handicapped in some ways. So what I would say for you

is that we should practice Kapal Bhati again. Let's give it another shot. I'll actually guide you through it. So it's going to be rapid. exhalations, and that's mainly because it's a physiologic technique. So like when you're feeling anxious like that, your sympathetic nervous system is going to be active. So you're going to have adrenaline and things like that. So there's a really interesting way to rein in your sympathetic nervous system, which is to become actually temporarily hypocarbic. So what we're going to do is rapidly

exhale, which is going to decrease the CO2 level. And when your CO2 level drops, that actually is going to change your respiratory drive and really slow you down. So hopefully it'll kind of crack the overthinking cycle by like literally sort of like shutting off your mind. Over time, yeah, go ahead. That's like the one where it's sort of like hyperventilating in a way, isn't it? Yes, exactly. Have you done that one before? Sounds like you have. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. once or twice. So the other thing, for whatever reason, I don't know why this is.

Actually, I do know why this is, but it's... So people will say, like, even when they watch meditation on stream and then when I actually do it with them on stream, that sometimes it has a differential effect. Not quite sure why that is. I have theories or things written in ancient texts. But, you know, for now,

let's just give it a shot because I think... And I would just encourage you to practice the technique because it's sort of like, you know, swimming isn't great exercise the first time you get in the water. You have to learn how to swim, and then it can be a very healthy form of exercise. Long term, what I would strongly recommend Asriel is you probably need to do some kind of sunculp oriented meditation. So I would say if you have a set of prayer beads, fantastic, if not get one. And like this is one of those things where you need to start like internally wiring. You're like really, like, really. You're like,

wiring like the way that you think about yourself. Okay. And I'm trying to think about, so there's some kind of sunculpe around worth. But let me just think about, let me just think. Yeah, I'm going to have to think about what that sunculp will be. I may DM you if it comes to me. Yeah, I do have a bracelet. but I can't.

There is. It's not really, it's not really a prayer beads. I don't know. Get prayer beads. All right. Yeah. Let me just think about,

let's do Kapalpati today, and let me just, let me just like 30 seconds to try to come up with Sunkulp, and then I'll, that's not it. Yeah, I can't think of anything in this moment, but sometimes I think of these,

things actually when I meditate. It's just, yeah, let me just draw on a blank. It's like right at the edge. I feel it. It's just not coming to it. So let's stick with Kapalpati, okay? I mean, just send you a random DM at some point though. All right. So, so with Kapalpati, you may want to blow your nose. You've got boogies and stuff, not Gigi.

All right. One sec. Okay. So sit up straight. And remember, we're going to do abdominal breathing. So do you remember how to do so for people who need a guide, what we're going to do is as we inhale, we're going to push the stomach out. So expand your abdomen. And as you exhale, pull the abdomen in. Contract. Good. So breathe in and pull the abdomen out. Big, big, big, billet. And then exhale. And then let us. the abdomen come in. Now we're going to do the Kapal Bhati part, so we're going to take a deep breath, and it's going to be rapid exhalations. I'll demonstrate for about nine rounds, okay? So I'll take a deep breath in. Okay. And when you do it, what I want you to do is focus on your stomach, and you can like almost like spasm that stomach and push that air out. Okay. So let's have you do it. Let me just observe you. So deep breath in and do like nine breaths. Good. Perfect. Okay. So now we're going to do it together. We're going to do, let's start with 15. Okay, so it's going to be 15 breaths. There's going to be a period of silence where you're going to just let your breathing do what it wants to. Don't necessarily try to think, but also don't get too tense about, you know, pushing thoughts out of your head. Just let them come and let them go and just sit in the space post-meditation, okay? We'll do 15 breaths. We'll sit for about 30 seconds. I'll bring you back after that, okay?

So take a deep breath in and begin. All right, you can leave your eyes closed. Now we're going to go to 20. So 20 breaths followed by a period of silence. Deep breath in and begin. Okay, now we're going to go up to... Are you ready? Go ahead, come on back.

What was that like for you? I didn't notice that maybe I got a little light-headed at the end, which I guess was the point. I don't know, I feel calmer. Yeah, so I'd practice, I'd say 33 breaths three times. So you want to work your way up to like 33 exhalations, maybe a minute or two in between for a total of like somewhere around five to seven minutes of practice. Okay.

I might have messed up the beginning, because I thought you meant like 15, like, breathe in and do the out nine times, four, 15 times. Oh, that's fine. I mean, yeah, that wasn't what I was saying, but, you know, that's a lot, which is fine. Yeah. So, like, I'd say 33 exhalations for one set and do three sets, like reps and sets. Like reps and sets. So 33 reps is one set.

and then, you know, if you're starting to have, like, help, if you're starting to feel anxious, you know, if you find yourself once again at like that job kind of situation, I'd start with Kapalpati. You can add on alternate nostril breathing afterward for about five to seven minutes. And hopefully that'll calm you down unless you're having like a truly clinical panic attack. In which case, that may be insufficient, but it still helps. Okay. And then just, you know, calm it down. And then by the time you get your prayer, beads, I will hopefully have something for you. So go find some. And if it takes you six months, then I've got six months. If it takes you a month,

then that's how long I've got. Okay. What are the requirements for the prayer beads? Like, would I need actual ones? Yeah, so I would get some kind of set of like any religious tradition, prayer beads. So like if you have a Catholic background, you can get a rosary. If you don't, I would recommend something from like the meditative traditions. So like Buddhism or Hindu or whatever, you can get like a Mala from, you know, wherever. You know, be careful about the fashionable ones.

So I know it's kind of hard, but try to get something that feels a little bit authentic. Ideally, if there's actually like, I don't know where you live, but if there's like a Buddhist monastery or temple somewhere near you, I would call them and say, hey, do you guys have like a place that I can get some prayer beads? Maybe we just need to note to self.

Okay. Got to think about getting those for you all. But that's what I would recommend. So does it? Yeah. Yeah. And then you can abduct me into the cults. We will induct it.

The abduction comes for the people who are not willing to be inducted. So you're willing. The abduction comes for your siblings. Abduction and induction, very different. Very different, right? So Asriel, thanks a lot for coming on, man. It's been awesome to see how far you've come. And, you know, good luck with the rest of your journey, bro.

Yeah, thank you. Take care. All right. You too. Chat.