HealthyGamerGG - Interview: Jack Manifold

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

Dr. K talks to Jack Manifold about ADHD, goals, and content creation! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I could say all those things and there'd be a part of you that would listen, right? Because remember there's two parts of you. And then that other part of you would be like, no, it's not enough. Hello, friend. Give me just one. How are you? No, of course. I'm doing great, buddy.

How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm doing one. Let me just. I'm a boomer, so you've got to give me a second, bro. It's fine. No, don't worry about it. You're all good.

All right. All right. There we go. And can you can you count to 10 for me? Of course. One, two, three, four, five, six. 7, 8. Oh, brilliant. Perfect. Yeah, that was great. So welcome. Jack, sorry, I'm going to grab my notebook. Of course. Thank you so much. So first, you know, welcome to the stream. Thank you. We're honored to have you. Is there something in particular that you prefer to be called? Like, what do you go by?

I just go by Jack. No one tends to. Most people are in fact, full name me, which is a bit weird. I don't know. It's a thing we usually did as kids and then we kind of grow out of. But I tend to find I'm full named. But no, you can just call me. Jack. Okay. So welcome to the stream, Jack. My name is Alok or Dr. Kay. And I'm really happy to have you here. I'm really glad you agreed to come on. A couple of ground rules, first of all, nothing that you, you don't have to talk about anything that you don't want to talk about. We oftentimes have a reputation for people coming on and expressing a lot of emotion, but we don't have to do that. I really view this as I'm a resource for you. And so anything that you want to talk about or anything that I could help you with, I'm more than happy to. Does that work for you? Yeah. Brilliant. Cool. So anything that you want to talk about or anything I can help you with? This is the one where it's difficult because we are

this. I think you guys reached out to me in July. And every time it's been like, yeah, I'll come on this week. And then there's something will come up. And I've been incredibly busy. And I think one thing, it was kind of two things that came out, one thing that came out through that process was I'm really bad at organizing myself. I'm terribly, if not busy,

mentally busy, which is a different thing entirely. Like a lot of the time when people ask me to do things, I'm like, oh no, I'm busy, which isn't always the case. I actually don't have that many things to do a lot of the time, but I'm very mentally busy.

I don't always know how to wrap my head around all the things that are going off at once. So, you know, that's one thing. And then I suppose, another thing that I thought about probably a couple of weeks ago but I'm a little bit like I've got a bit of brain fog

because I just moved and I'm like in that process of you know like still a bit sleep deprived and stuff but I was thinking about kind of this like sense of self and like who I am in terms of I was it came from like a work related thing where I was like thinking

about how to move forward with some content stuff and I'm like well a lot of people will argue that content creation, depending on how you do it, is very personality-based. And I was like, okay, great. What do people like, what do I bring? And then I just kind of sat there and was like,

I have no idea what about me makes me. I was like, I don't understand that in the slightest. Beautiful. So that was also, I thought maybe a discussion that could be interesting. I don't really know. I don't have much to add about it since that was kind of my question. I have no idea how to approach that problem.

Jack, I think both of those are perfect. So I would love to talk to you about either of those two things or both. So here's what I heard. One is that like the subjective feeling of being busy may be disconnected from what your calendar looks like. Yeah, totally. So we can try to understand like, how do that work? You know, like what's going on? What makes us feel busy?

Can I just tell you a quick story about that, by the way? Of course. Yeah, yeah. So we had a pilot at Healthy Gamer that was high performance coaching. So it was sort of like working with people who were more successful. And so there was a really interesting kind of theme that came out of that, which is, you know, some people came into the group coaching process expecting like tips. And they were like, oh, like they would come in and they say, I want to work on my work life balance.

And so what they were really hoping for is like a few weeks in, they were kind of disappointed because they were like, like I was hoping to be like more efficient, right? I was hoping I could learn from other people who were like more efficient. I'd get tips and then I could be more efficient and then I could improve my work-life balance. But then what we sort of realized after talking with them is that, you know, if you were 10% more efficient, what would you do with the extra time? And the answer inevitably was work more. And so. Which point? Yeah. So I think a lot of this comes from the sort of the idea of like, you know, where does mentally busy come from? Um, so we could definitely talk about that.

And I think the other thing that is very important is your sense of self. So like, who are you? And when you make content, what is it that people resonate with? And, um, what do you, you know, how do you make content that is aligned with who you are? Uh, which one do you want to start with? Um, or which one's more interesting to you? I think the one that I'd benefit more from is, is probably the mentally busy part. I think that's the one I'd rather wrap my head around than at the two.

So we can first notice what's driving your decision? Oh, being more efficient. It's 100%. Right, right away. I realize I'm very, one thing I know about myself is that I'm very success driven. Like throughout every, all of life, it's kind of generally that's the thing I'm striving for. And I get very upset with failure. to the point, like, like, very upset with it.

It's something, and it doesn't even have to be very big failure, very minute things, kind of, I don't have a very good sense of scale. I'm very black and white. Like, it's like, uh, success or failure. And that's kind of like the binary sort of system in which everything is one of the other. And I know that's not quite right. And I'm trying to not be like that. But how do you know that's not quite right?

Well, because certain things, Bay, it's not that it's not quite right, I suppose. It's more that it is detrimental to me to get so. deeply upset by these things that I categorize as failure and they're not really that bad. Like I know deep down that they're not that bad, but I know also that I'm upset by them. And I'd rather not be because I find that in being upset by them, all I do is I become less motivated, I work less and I stumble into more failures,

which I then like... You know what? It's like this cycle that perpetuates, yeah. Let me see if I heard of the cycle correctly. You kind of screw up. Yeah. You tell yourself, oh, it's not that big of a deal. You can bounce back from this. Don't stress about it.

Don't worry about it. If you free yourself of screwing up, you can go back to succeeding. But the debuff from screwing up causes you to screw up more. Yes. And then maybe even you start beating yourself up for like, why can't I cleanse this debuff?

Yeah. Yeah, that's totally it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting. What do you think about that? It's, I think it's my, my biggest, like, not my biggest flaw necessarily. The floor might not be the right word, but it's, it's the thing I would wish I could get over,

because it's the thing that I find causes me to, to, I find that a lot of the time, when I'm not doing something, it's like, it's because I'm annoyed about the last thing that went wrong. And that's why this thing's going wrong. And it's like, if I could just move on from the last thing, maybe I could put my full attention into this thing. Okay. Hmm. Sounds like quite a pickle, Jack. I'm glad you think so.

I'm glad you think it's a pickle as well. Yeah. But did you think... How does it feel when I say it sounds like quite a pickle? Well, at that point, then it's like, it's like, oh, okay, then no one else. Like, it's good that I don't have... Sorry, it's not good. I mean, it's more normal that I don't have the answers.

Like, I've not been able to figure this out. And all of a sudden, if you're sat there like, wow, I don't know what... It's like, well, okay, that makes me feel like I've not been... There's a certain level of frustration if you were to turn around immediately and go, this is how you fix that. I'd be like, wow, if I'd known this for the past five years, then I would have been, you know what I mean? If it was such a simple answer, but to know it's not, I suppose.

It would make you feel stupid. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I feel like, yeah. Yeah, I don't think you're stupid, Jack. No, that, thank you. I think what you're dealing with is very hard. And I think the reason it's very hard is because being the way that you are, let me know how this feels to you.

You know, it's kind of like if you weren't so detail-oriented, if you didn't beat yourself up so much, would you be where you are today? That's the difficult question. I don't really know. I mean, we would possibly argue no. Maybe I feel like if I wasn't as detail-oriented, like you say, I feel like I'd coast more,

and I possibly wouldn't have pushed myself like I do, because I do push myself quite hard. And I don't mind that. I'm quite happy to be the person that stays up till like stupid hours in the morning working. I'm quite fulfilled by being a worker. That I enjoy, but it's when,

it's the consequences of when that goes wrong, how it then screws me up for so much longer afterwards. That, that's the problem I don't, that's the part I don't like. How do you feel about coasting? Oh, yeah, no, I can't do it. I, that I'm very,

I wish I, part of me wishes I could, but then I'd feel lazy. And, I feel lazy enough as it is. And that is, and I feel like I probably do work when you look at it. But a lot of the time I'll be like, I feel lazy. Like, I'm, this is, to give you a detail, this is then a week where I felt lazy. And I moved on Monday.

And then I went out filming on Tuesday. I unpacked all my things on Wednesday, which I didn't like, so I did nothing but unpack all day. And I'm like, I haven't worked today. And then I went out filming all day on Thursday. And then Friday, unpacked some more. And then my parents came to visit. And now it's Monday. And I felt like, wow, I didn't get much done that week.

Where really, when I think about it, where was the time to do all the things? But I sat there all week thinking, wow, I really need to like knuckle down next week because I didn't do much. And that's, you know. Yeah, I feel like we're coming up on mentally busy. What do you think? Yes, that's, yes. Yeah. Help me understand that.

That's how I feel. Yeah. I feel like a lot of the time, I've just got a lot of things to be working on. and when I feel it's like that sort of like test paralysis thing you know when you've got too many things you're like whoa well I'm just going to back off and do nothing it's like because that's the easy you know it's like yeah there's this I know I've got to like I've got a million and one list of things I have to do in my head and then it's like right how do I sometimes I'll just sit there and I'm not really doing

anything I'm not busy in that moment but I feel busy because like well I don't want to be doing anything else because if I're doing anything else I'm going to take my focus away from trying to figure out what I should be doing, if that makes sense. I realize, yeah, absolutely. It feels quite a complicated thought process to explain

because it's a lot of, it's busyness and busyness is difficult to kind of, you know. So Jack, I think it's very complicated and hopefully you and I can try to untangle it. How does that sound? Okay, so I'm going to toss a couple things out and you let me know what rings true and what doesn't.

Okay, you're our compass. So I'm going to point the compass in different directions and you let me know if it aligns. So, you have this list of things that you've got to do, right? Because you're a content creator and you know like, okay, like I've got to do this and I've got to do this and this is going to be hype and this is going to be great. This is going to be fun.

It also fulfills you, right? So it's not like you're like a taskmaster in your mind. It's like, oh, you're genuinely excited about doing these things, right? Yeah. Then what happens is sometimes you can't really act on them. Like let's say you've got to move, for example. So in your mind you have the thousand tasks. and you've got to move.

But for some reason, moving never really enters the task list, right? It's not like one of your goals. Like it's not something you're working towards. It's something that kind of gets in the way. And so as moving, so at the end of the day, you have moved zero steps forward on your task list. But you have moved. Yeah. And then what happens is you kind of feel like, oh my God, like I haven't progressed because

this is my task list of a thousand things. And like, instead I had to waste a day moving. And then that sort of feels like, oh, my God, now I, like a day has gone by and I haven't moved forward at all. And then like the next day rolls around and you're sort of like, oh, man, you know, I should have done stuff yesterday and I don't know. And like, man, I could have squeezed something in. And then you start to maybe beat yourself up a little bit. That in turn could like lead to a little bit more paralysis because I think beating yourself up is kind of like a coin flip. Sometimes it drives you.

And it's like, man, like, I'm never going to do this again, never again. Like, let's do it, Jack. Like, let's go. And other times it's like, oh, man, like, I wish I had done it. Yeah. And I tend to fall on that ladder, I think, more. Because I have friends who I went to advice for. And he tried to motivate me the way he motivates himself, which is harsh criticism,

which works great for him because he feels like, wow, I can be better. That's how he sees it. Where I go, just like kind of sigh and don't want to do anything. And so I definitely, that experience was like, yeah, no, that's definitely beating myself up, doesn't really motivate me much. It can do. Of course it can. But, like, most of the time, it just makes me feel, you know, like, just a bit.

Yeah. Can I think for a second? Of course. Yeah. Go for it. If someone were to tell you that they think you're doing great, how would you feel? I like that. And people have.

And that makes me feel good. But ultimately, I think a lot of the time, I then go, I'm glad that I'm doing. doing well by your standards. You know what I mean? That's what I feel like. Then I go, but by my standards, it's not quite enough. Like, I feel like it's my standards are different. And therefore, that's really good.

And I feel like, thank God you said I'm doing well, but I'm still not quite satisfied. That's usually what it, like, boils down to. I'm going to go, I'm going to enter slow mo for a second, okay? Oh, yeah, that's all good. So when people say they're, that they think you're doing great, do you feel like they don't understand? Um, sometimes.

Sometimes definitely, it depends who says it. There's certain people who have more credibility in that claim than others, I would say. Because certain people are in a similar position to me. And if they say I'm doing great, it's like, well, you understand this world and what we do and blah, blah, blah. And if you think I'm doing well, then that, that genuinely means something. But like, in no way, offense to them. But like, say my parents turn around and go, you're doing great.

I'm like, well, you don't, like, I'm glad you think I'm doing well. And that's really nice. and it's lovely to hear your parents are proud and all this stuff. It's like, you don't understand what I'm doing fully. You don't know this world quite the way I do. And to me, I don't feel like I'm doing great still. So what is it that they don't understand about your world?

I mean, just the content creation stuff. I mean, I mean it in quite a literal sense of like, it's just new to them. You know what I mean? They don't quite understand what makes it tick exactly and what might look good to them. it might not be exactly what it is. You know, it's, it's expecting them to understand something

they've only just kind of tried to get their heads around purely because that's their son's job. You know what I mean? So what are you, what makes it hard for you to feel like you're doing good enough? Like, when would you be satisfied with yourself? And that's what I don't know. I've been asked that a lot. And someone asked me to like, like, when would, and I'm like,

I think I know. lot of the time it's like, oh, well, let's say I've done well enough when I know that I could retire. For example, I say that I could turn around and go, I can retire right now and that's it. And not necessarily that I want to, but I could. And that's like me going, well, I've, I've fulfilled my goals. I've, as, as, I think that's the goal right with working. I feel like that's, that's kind of the goal. It's like you want to work until you can retire. And then even if you want to work beyond that, at least you know, at any given point, you can go, that's my fix. I'm, I'm out. And I think part of me always strives.

towards that. That's one thing in my head. But then what's when, when, when is that? I don't really know. Where did you get that goal of being able to retire? I don't know. I just, that, that, in my head, that was always the goal of working. I think you, you, you work, you earn, you earn your pay. Eventually you have enough where you go, yeah, I don't have to do this anymore. And that's not necessarily to say you stop, because I don't like being lazy. But that's at a point where I can go, well, it doesn't really, because at that point, if I have enough, it doesn't matter if working, brings nothing, and it doesn't matter if it brings everything, because I already had enough, so it doesn't really matter.

At which point, I feel like then, maybe at that point, I think, I can stop saying this is a failure and this is, like, a success, because it doesn't really matter as long as I'm fulfilled in, like, I'm enjoying it. Right now, I feel like I'd love to enjoy it, but also it's got to be, like, worthwhile. That's the thing. I like to enjoy the things I'm doing,

but I also want them to be worthwhile. And at a certain point, you can go, well, whether it's worthwhile, or not stops mattering because I have what I need. It's just whether it satisfies me personally, that's it. That's how I feel. Fantastic. So I think, Jack, we, there's a lot that I think we can learn here.

I just don't know that I have the skill to help you. So I'm going to lean on you a lot, okay? And we may have a lot of false starts. That's fine. So let me ask you something. So let's say that you hit your target. you can retire, okay? And then at that point, you can work,

and you can work will be free because it could bring nothing or it could bring everything, and it would be the same to you. Right? That's what I like to think. I can't say that I'll get there and I'll be like, but let's say that's true

because it's hard to say it to you there. So let's reverse it. Okay, so let's look at it this way. When you fail, why does the failure hurt so much? It's because it doesn't advance you towards your goal. Is that sort of makes sense? Yeah.

Also, to me, I'm, I get like in these, like, this. What if this disappears? Like, I'm very attached to what I do right now. I love it, right? And it's like, what if this is the beginning of the end? That's kind of how it always feels. It's like this weird, like, it's like the beginning of the apocalypse scenario where I'm like, right, well, this is the beginning of the end. You know, I see like, I upload a YouTube video.

It doesn't do very well. Right, well, I'm falling off. I'm gone. And it's like, well, that's a shame. I didn't get to do all the things I wanted to. But it's like if I reach the point where I have done all those things, or I am at that point, then all of a sudden, it doesn't matter if it starts declining.

I did what I needed. But I'm not there yet. I'm with you. So let me kind of put it this way. Like whether it brings nothing or brings everything hurts right now, because there's a big difference between those, right? And so if you make a YouTube video and it doesn't do well, then that falls into the bringing.

nothing camp, and it has a consequence as a result. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. But what we're sort of saying is that once you check your boxes for retirement, then you can make something and it can bring nothing and you can be okay with that, right? Yeah. Okay. So then I know it sounds kind of weird, but let me give you a scenario. Let's say that you've got $100 million. I don't know how much you need to retire. No, $100 million or $100 million. pounds or whatever. It sounds enough in your bank account. And then you make content for a year and you're making content and it has no consequences because you've got your 100 million pounds in the bank account, right? And so you're making content. You're making content for fun. It's like

some of it's succeeding, some of it's not succeeding. And then you're okay with that because it doesn't matter. You've got your 100 million pounds in the bank account, right? So you can make content freely. You're free. And that's what I'm really hearing is that. that for you, the goal is freedom, freedom from needing to worry about the consequences of your actions. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah. I'd say that's it. Yeah. So you make content for another year because you're like, I don't know how old you are, but let's say like it, by that point, you're like 24. How old are you? I'm 19. Okay. Great. So let's say $20 million a year for the next year for the next year. And then you're retiring at the age of 24. And then for the next,

and then you're like, what am I going to do with my life? And you're like, I don't know, I'm going to just make content for fun. You make content for two years. And it's lots of lots of fun and you enjoy yourself and you achieve what you're shooting for okay these are your visions not mine and then at the on your 26th birthday you realize that there's been some kind of financial theft some identity fraud and someone has stolen 95 million dollars from you now and not only do they steal it they stole it two years ago so you've actually never had it right yeah what do you think about like do you think that your enjoyment, like if you kind of look back in time, like, you still enjoyed yourself

even though you really didn't have the money. You just sort of believed you had the money. What do you think about that? Yeah. No, I feel like if someone could turn around now and promise me that it'll be fine. Like it doesn't matter that there'll be ups and downs, blah, blah, blah, but like at the end, you will be fine. This will work. Then I stop worrying again. It's purely just the kind of like, I find that worrying is not only just unpleasant, generally. But I find that it also inhibits me from doing the things I enjoy because it tends to cause. I don't know how to describe it. Just, you know, let's move it.

It just inhibits. And I think I just, I always, yeah, I just strive to be free of it. I think that's all it is. I think that's kind of always been it, really. Yeah. So this is the terrifying thing. Okay. Now this is going to be hard, Jack.

Because the first is that you being free of it has nothing to do. do with the amount of money in your bank account? No, and I kind of know that as well. I think that that was an it was an abstraction. I'm with you. I'm with you. There's more to it than that. But yes, let's.

Yeah. Right. So I think that like, like, whether something brings nothing or brings everything has to do with your conception and the standard at which you're trying to fulfill. And I think the truly terrifying thing is that if you really want to be free from worry, you have to learn how to coast. I think that, yeah. Right?

Because once you have $100 million in the bank account, what are you going to be doing? You're going to be coasting. Yeah. And I think that's the thing. I think I deep down really would like to coast. Oh, yes. But right now I can't justify it. Like, I can't justify coasting.

And I've never been able to. There's never been a point in my life where I feel like this is right now is the time to coast. That's never came. And I would really like for myself to feel like now's the time. and yeah so now I'm going to ask you is the time to coast determined by something in here or something out there in my head it's out there but I want to say that perhaps it really should be in here like maybe I should make that decision but I feel like it's out of my hands to a degree sure so I'm really glad you said that I'm really glad you didn't say the quote unquote right and BS answer which is like oh like

coasting is like it's all about like yeah you're in an environment no no no no no right? No. There's a level at which you've like kind of got to be able to live. Sure. Absolutely. So I'm really glad that you got an authentic answer and I want to be careful what that word should because I think that you're correct that honestly, I hate to break this to you, Jack, but I think that retirement is going to be a goalpost that moves for you. You're going to, you're going to go a certain distance and you're going to say it's not enough. Right. And this is where like we can kind of go back and think a little bit about your 19. now? How old were you when you started streaming?

17. And what were your goals when you started streaming? Yeah, not this at all. Not even to do it as a job. It was just to do it for fun. And then it became a job. And then it was like, oh, no, no, what it was. It was doing it for fun.

And I was like, wait, I can leave my, like my IT job. That'd be great. This is so much better than doing IT. And then all of a sudden, when this became a job, it's like, right, now I've got to be successful in this. You know, because. before it was be successful in the IT job. Sure.

Now it's flipped. And so I think that this is, I don't think you need to, you know, like become internally enlightened right away. I think it's okay to be attached to like external things. But I think deep down, it's going to be tricky because what you're going to have to do is things that there's an overlap between doing things that make you feel lazy and being like internally satisfied with what you do. Does that make sense?

I think we're going to have to move. I'm not going to suggest that you become lazy, but I think sometimes you beat yourself up for things that are probably actually okay. And oddly enough, it's almost like if you want to, this is why it's hard. I'm trying to thread a lot of things together. So when you feel like you're not doing enough and that you beat yourself up and then you fail again, right?

You with me? In that mindset, the problem is in order to let go of that second failure, like the debuff, it has to be embracing the things that make you feel lazy. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I think I get what that means. Yeah.

So, like, if you want to free yourself from the mental burden of, oh, my God, I'm screwing up, you have to move a little bit more towards, like, accepting, like, what you call feeling lazy. I don't think it's actually laziness. No, no, no. Those two things are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. And I think, I think if I ask you to do that, you will kick and scream. You don't want to do that. So I think I possibly know it's best for me, but I don't think I would naturally fall into it at.

It would be a real challenge. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. So I think you've already figured out that this is like not ideal. And at the same time, you're going to fight it. Like that's just that's how that's why it's hard, Jack. Because it isn't a simple answer.

It's not like you're doing something wrong and you need to do something right. It's actually that you're doing something right. And if you want to move forward, you need to start doing things that are wrong. sure that's why it's hard and very few people figure it out and it's like a struggle for humanity what no the struggle for humanity line was like wow that's that really made my problem big what do you mean oh it feels i don't know i feel like um i'm also um very inclined to um kind of see things as per i kind of forget that other people struggle with the same things um a lot of the Like, I think I have a very, like, they look fine.

They're doing fine. They don't have this worry that I have, most likely. It's unrealistic, but I feel like when you look at people, I don't often assume. So when you say humanity, I'm like, this isn't, this isn't just me. It's not just you. What do you see when you look at other people, Jack? It really depends. I feel like I see this, there's certain people.

This is the thing. I think I do compare myself quite a lot because I was always, they always, they always, This is something that everyone always quotes as being the source of a problem, but I'm going to bring up this cliche of being the kid that did well in school. And what happens is you leave. And all of a sudden, especially in this sphere, it's huge and there's so many people, I'm not the best at it. Where in school, I was the best in most, a lot of the things I did,

at least compared to my peers. So all of a sudden, the comparison thing wasn't a problem. Because if I compare myself to people, it's like, yeah, I'm beyond that. And it was like, yeah, I'm doing better than that. That's great. no one can expect anything more of you when you're doing the best. That's how I felt.

But now I'm in a position where I'm not doing the best. There's also a part of me that is striving to be the best. And as much as I know, that isn't realistic because I'm in a huge, huge sphere of very, very talented people,

way more talented than myself. But there's a little part of my brain which is like, let's try and be the best at this. Let's be the absolute best at this. I lost where I was going with that entirely. I felt like that was going to tie into something. No, no, you're, you're doing great, man.

So I want to point something out to you. I've noticed something. So this is going to be kind of a meandering conversation, okay? So like, sorry, but have you noticed that you'll oftentimes make statements about like deep down, I know this, but this? Or on some level, I feel like this, but this. Have you kind of noticed that within you, there's like this war between like. There's a lot of conflict. Yeah.

I'm very conflicted a lot. Who are those two people? Like, you get the sense. there's two people in there? Yeah. No, okay. Yeah, I think so. And it's probably the part of me

that just wants to like enjoy things and purely like purely just enjoy things. Like that's it. Like that's all I want to do. If I'm doing something, I want to do it for maximum enjoyment. Whether that's working, whether that's anything, it's purely for me. And there's a part of me that's like you need to be able to live and you need to do well and you need to succeed and like it's trying to balance those two. But I find that the succeeding one tends to trump the enjoyment one. And I don't know why, but I've got this weird idea in my head that success is more important than enjoyment.

As much as I kind of know that that shouldn't be true, because I also, if I was to sit down and get really philosophical and discuss what I view life as, it's like, it's ultimately all down to just making the most of whatever you, whatever time you have. So you should enjoy it, right? But like, I also don't want to shorten that time or whatever by, you know, being unsuccessful, which in my head is how it works, which possibly is a very big leap. So I'm going to name the two parts of you and you let me know if these fit. So one is the part of you that knows what is true. And the other one is the part of you that knows what should be true. Oh, wait. Hold on.

Those, that's a very like subtle wording difference between the two things, right? So what you know to be true and what should be true? Oh, okay. Right. Yes. No, totally. Okay. Yeah.

Is that fit? Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. So this kind of goes back to your sense of self. Right.

Because I think you're not going to be able to figure out who you are when these two things are so like, I mean, that's a huge gap, man. What you know is actually true. Like what your actual experience is what your mind tells you, hey, man, moving is a waste of time. Yeah. And then there's the other part of you that's like, like, I have to move, though. Yeah. But the other part's like, fuck it. Yeah, no, I don't.

This is taking time and I don't want to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I know that to be the case because I, I've had this house since the 24th of September. I've been paying for it since then. I moved this week because I've been pushing it off because I've been busy. And I've been like, I don't have time to move yet. And it's like, you know, it was so stupid.

Eventually it got to the point where like, okay, I'm being dumb. I'm being like, I own a house. that I'm not using, I should go and live in it. But it was like, it took me nearly two months of like, and I said it was because I was busy, but I think it was ultimately just because I knew I'd do this, but I'm like, this is a waste of time. Yeah. So I think when you get caught between what you know to be true and what should be true, you feel dumb. What do you think about that?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe dumb. Let me think, yeah, wait, that might be the right. That might be the right one, but I'm just trying to think about it. Um, yeah. Yeah, dumb. Yeah, right? Because you said, like, this is dumb.

I haven't moved in. Yeah, like, that felt stupid. Like, like, I felt really dumb. I'm like, I could move. I mean, I lived with my parents. I didn't have much stuff to move. And it was like, just, just pack it up and move. And I didn't pack it up until the very day before because I booked the

move van. I'm like, oh, I have to do it now. Like, like, that was how I might motivate myself to do it. It was like, right, well, I booked the van, so I have to get this stuff packed before it arrives. I wouldn't have done it otherwise. Because that's what I tried to do. Pack it and then book the van. It just never happened. I just wouldn't do it. Yeah. So I'm also noticing, so I'm just going to kind of rephrase that again.

I think when you get stuck between these two things is when you end up, it doesn't sort of matter because like you're always letting one of them down, right, if you're stuck between the two of them. Or you're paralyzed and not even moving towards either one. Which is the worst. Right? And that's when you. beat yourself up. So in terms of if we want to try to understand like, okay, like now, I almost feel like I should pull out the iPad here. But so here's on a high level, I'm going to try to summarize because I think we've hit a lot of good things, but I think that it's kind of confusing.

Would you agree? Sure. Yeah. I'd say it's confusing. So let me try to. Let's just start from the top. Okay. So you're very mentally busy because there's a lot of stuff you should be doing.

right? And you're very success driven, you're very outcome oriented. So you know what you need to do. Your to-do list is probably far beyond what you're capable of, but it's all important stuff that could get done. And you drive towards it. You also acknowledge that, you know, despite the fact that you are sometimes hard on yourself and push yourself, that you probably wouldn't be where you are unless you did those things. Right. So even though there's a part of you that wants to change. and wants to relax and wants to coast and wants to enjoy being 19 years old, which theoretically should be the best time of your life. And I'm sure you were genuinely having fun too. I don't get the sense that your life is all sad and all like.

No, no, no, I do have fun. I then just come away from it like, oh, wow, I didn't do anything. But I do enjoy it. In the moment, I'm having a great time. So that's exactly beautifully said, right? So like, in the moment you're enjoying. So there's one thing over here and you're like, all right, let's do that thing. And then the second you're done, there's that other voice that's like, hey, dumbass, you could have been doing something.

You didn't do any of the things. Yeah. Right. And so it's almost like any time you reach towards happiness, like this voice comes in and takes it away from you. And then like, then what happens is you like go towards that person, right? Who's like, work, Jack, work, work, son. Grind, boy. And then you do all those kinds of things.

And then there's some like voice inside you that's like, hey, like, you know, like, you know, like, maybe this is not how I should be living right now. And then the other voice is like, no, no, no, it's okay. You can do that when you retire. We're grinding for a reason. I'm doing this for you, bro. We're grinding so that you can have fun later. Yeah.

Right? And then like any time, so if you go towards one side of the pole, like either if you pick one, then later the other will come to haunt you. And so sometimes you're stuck between the two and then you're, and then like anytime you're stuck, either you don't choose. then you really beat yourself up. Then everyone's on the same page. Then everyone's like, hey, you're not having fun and you're not being productive.

Like what's wrong? Then both the sides of the polls are like, hey, we're unified. We can align over one thing, which is that you should be doing better. Yeah. And then I think when you feel that way, you sort of feel dumb. Totally. Yeah. How is that for a summary so far?

Good. Very good. Yeah. Okay. That's perfect. So now, Jack, what do we do about that? Any thoughts? I'm just curious.

You don't have to have answers. I think it's really hard. You see, there's a realistic part of me. And there's the part of me that wants to go, you know what, go towards the fun one, because that's great and you're going to enjoy your life. I'm 19 years old. I got this great opportunity.

Let's just enjoy it. The thing is, if I carry on it, if I keep just striving for enjoyment, I'll lose it. I know I will. Like, I know what I'll do. I'll go out and have fun and then realize, like, I didn't do anything and this is going to disappear beneath my feet. But so the realistic part of me is like, find a balance.

Find a balance is probably the thing I should be doing, but I'm very, I can't. I don't know. I'm not very good at that. Yeah. So what makes it hard for you to find a balance? Because, I'm not, hmm. Ooh, that's a hard one. I don't.

So I'm going to think about it or I'm just going to say, going for a few minutes. True. I suppose it's kind of the idea of which feels more important than the other. And in a moment, I can never really decide. So it's very hard for me to, like to balance it.

I basically got, the way the thought process works in my head of balancing it is, I have a dilemma, right? Over something, I don't know, say someone's inviting me out, but I could be getting on with one of the million things I could be doing. And it's like, right, well,

I'm going to sit there and I'm going to think, I could go and do that thing or I could do this thing. And in that moment, I struggle a lot to go, which one of these is the most important route to take for me right now? And sometimes I can. Sometimes I can go, you know what? I've worked a lot recently. These are my friends tonight.

I should go do something. And sometimes it's like, hey, I'm really behind, you know. But when I'm not leaning to an extreme where I'm either really behind or I'm really ahead and I'm doing all right, when I'm kind of in that middle ground of, I can't go one way or the other, I struggle to make the decision.

Okay. So oddly enough, that doesn't sound like balance to me. That sounds kind of like torture. Right. Is that fair to say or is that? Potentially, I feel like it's... Is that how it feels? I don't.

That's, I think that's where the paralysis kicks in. I don't know. That's where I go, let's freeze up. Yeah. So I got an emotional reaction there. I wasn't sure if that emotional reaction was absurdity because I'm completely off base or that was striking a chord. I don't know. It's one of those things I don't think I've ever sat back and reflected on how I feel about that.

So you said it and I'm like, God, that's quite a harsh word to use. And I don't know whether it's quite fitting or not. It was just a bit of like a whoa, whoa. I've not had a chance to think. So what I'm kind of hearing is that like, so let me put it this way. Which feels more important in the moment doesn't sound to me like balance. It sounds like a pendulum. Yeah.

So what I'm kind of hearing is if you if you've like, sometimes if you're extreme ends of the poles, it's very easy to make a decision because you're like, oh, I've grinded way too hard. Let me swing back this way. Yeah, it's so obvious. In that moment, it's an obvious decision. It's the second it becomes. not so obvious. I've never been great in making decisions. Full stop. Like that's one thing I know about myself. Very poor decision. Never is a short time for you because you're 19. Yeah. Oh, no, I know. But as of yet, I've not been great at making decisions. So I didn't mean to be condescending there,

but I don't know. You're doing good, Jack, and I think you got to cut yourself some slack because, you know, you're, you're, I appreciate that. But what I, what I'm kind of noticing is like, you know, like it's easy when you're at an extreme because then you can swing the pendulum back the other way. But like balance is not a pendulum. In fact, pendulum is the exact opposite of a balance, right? It's like swinging back and forth. Like balance is this. If I can do this, it's not going to balance. Okay. Whatever. It's very hard, but yeah. I get what you're trying to do. And so I think what, what maybe you should, maybe what concerns you is that I'm, I'm concerned that if we think about like balancing this pen, for example, the tricky thing is that,

let's say like, this is the work end of the pen and this is the leisure end of the pen. And you're actually like kind of okay over here. The problem is that if we like are not careful and you kind of go too far on the leisure side, I get the sense that you may be afraid that you'll like fall off a cliff. And so like you you're like, oh, I should let myself coast a little bit more. I should let my coast a little bit more. I should let my coast, myself coast a little bit more. But if I coast too much, it'll all come crumbling down. Yeah. And it is like, like, yeah, I'll like spot like a minor slip. Like I'll spot like the littlest thing that isn't doing as well as it was like say a week ago and it's like, whoa, it's the beginning of the fall. And I, like, I'll, you know,

like, slide back over the other way. Yeah. So I think that the reason it's hard, because when you're moving towards balance, I think you run away from balance, actually. And then you get burnt out or fed up. And then your pendulum swing towards self-care. And then you do that for a day or two. And you're like, back to the grind. Like, I've taken a day or two off. Like, like, got to go back to it. And so I get the sense that it's a pendulum. And further or more if you want balance, you've got to like, I know it's going to be scary, but you got to like let yourself kind of coast. Like, does that make sense? Yeah.

Okay. So I think the next thing, Jack, that I kind of want to ask you is like if we want to understand, so if this is the structure, you're torn between these two things, sometimes it's easy to make decisions. But in that middle space, it's really hard for you to make the decisions. And then furthermore, in the middle space, you also engage in some amount of like self-blame. feeling stupid? Yeah, yeah. Some. Yeah, I'm not saying that your head is like a toxic wasteland of just like shame.

No, no. I wouldn't say it was either. I wouldn't say that's fair. But yeah. So I just want to make it clear I'm not implying that. But in terms of when the debuff happens, that gives you task paralysis and all these other like negative manifestations, I really think it comes from something about what we're talking about. Is that fair?

Yeah, I would say so. So I think if we want to understand where that comes from, I'd like to ask you about your past. Are you okay with that? So can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up or what growing up was like for you? Sure. Well, I just moved away from where I grew up. I grew up in a slightly, it's actually quite a big UK town.

It's not very well connected. There's not much going on there. So I am not much going on where I was from. Parents are together. Fine. You know, I wouldn't say It doesn't feel like obviously, of course Everyone's child has an impact, but I couldn't say

There's any big events where I'd go This was a really big deal for me and this has changed me And this is, this is that I'd say I grew up with my parents And I'd say possibly I was A bit sheltered In fact, no, I'd say even now I've just moved and I realize

I have no idea how to do so many things And I'll figure it out because I do. I'm pretty confident in myself. But I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And I'll figure it out. I'm not worried about it. But I do realize I'm perhaps a little bit underprepared at times. And that just comes from, yeah, being a little bit sheltered.

But otherwise, that's... I mean, if you have any specific questions you're trying to target, then I'm happy to answer them. Sure, sure, sure. I don't have anywhere to go. So let's just take. acknowledge one or two things. So oftentimes people, when we think about the past, we think like, oh, like, are we looking for a smoking gun? You know, was there a time where, like, you were supposed to be, like, lead singer and your, like, seventh standard play? And the teacher didn't like you,

so they had some other kid do it. And you, like, were filled with the hatred and resentment. And you're going to become a super villain in a, in a Marvel movie at some point. Yeah, like an origin story type. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's like, you know, Hitler didn't get acceptable. into art school and so that's why we have Yeah, exactly. So I think the first thing to understand is that for most human beings, like that's not the case. So sometimes people do have extreme

like, you know, trauma or whatever. But I still think that, for example, the way that you look at yourself and the way that you navigate your internal environment is likely to be shaped, at least in part, by some experiences early in life. Things like your

priorities, your value, use what's okay and what's not okay. Like, you know, even if you think about coast versus grind, where you are on that spectrum, oftentimes is like conditioned. Right. Right. So I'm the child of two physicians. And so there are like certain basic things that like were baked into me in terms of how

hard I should study, what's interesting, what I should try to do that like, you know, other human beings are like more important than I am. There are all kinds of stuff that's like baked into me. based on my upbringing. It doesn't have to be like traumatic, but it's absolutely transformed. No, no, of course not. It's, yeah, no, of course not.

I moment that when you ask about my childhood, there's not. Yeah. Unless you're looking for something specific. I don't have anything. So, yeah, I've got one or two things. I'm really curious about. Any siblings?

Of course. Yes, one. Old or younger? Younger. Okay. And then, can you just tell me, like, what were things like at home? I'm not fishing for anything negative and I'm not going to make your parents up to be

people or anything. Just like, like, just tell me, like, what are your parents like? What's it like to, you know?

They, they, um, they're very supportive in this. Um, but, um, I find that,

um, they're, they're very like, and not in a, this is where I, it's because I, I, I've kind of made an effort

to understand their motivation in it. Um, it's not in a sort of pushy sense, but like, they want me to succeed. And purely just so I'm comfortable and happy. The same way kind of I want me to succeed. The reasoning is very similar.

But I feel like they also will be like, like when I was at home, I would, I would be reminding myself with the things I had to do. And they would as well. Like they would be like, hey, you still have to do this thing. Like, if I was trying to relax, I often find that someone would be like, if I made that conscious decision that I, yeah, I've chosen like, I'm just going to enjoy myself for a bit. What it could, it could be disrupted by the, hey, you have this thing to do. And it's like, yeah, and often I'd get annoyed and they couldn't really figure out why. It's like, yeah, the reason is because I'm aware of that. I know I have that thing to do.

I've already got, I'm already fighting off my own, hey, you got to do this thing to have you come in and then go, you got to do this. It's like, like now it's too much and now I'm annoyed. What would? Yeah, go ahead. So that was, I think that's something that, that's something that possibly causes me to work a bit more as well. Because it's like, if I managed to finally reconcile it with myself, the second someone else comes along, especially someone like, I feel like parents, this is me. probably most people as well but I'm very

even if I know it's not true I will take their word as almost gospel even if I know that that shouldn't be done because I know that they don't always know the best in my head I can't shake the I'm just going to listen to what they say because they're my parents and I've got this relationship of trust

so even though logically I'm quite aware that why would they know about that thing like why you know I'm like, yep, they've told me to do that thing. That's the thing. You know.

So I just want to point out once again that there's that thing again. Like there's the part of you that knows that you don't really need to listen to them. And then there's the con like, like I'm just hearing this. Like this is the big thing, Jack. Every time I ask you a question, there's always two sides to the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I suspect that much of your lack of peace comes from the moment that those two sides become like uniform, you will be at peace. Yeah, that would be, if that ever happens, that would be great. I'm trying to think of a time where they have been and I'm like, I'm not sure it's happened. Yeah, we'll get there. So, and I think that like, you know, you'll know who you are when that happens. Exactly. That's one thing I've thought about.

That's another thing. When I was thinking about that, I feel like a lot of the time I've been following the instruction of, in a way, my parents because of what I was saying. And then also just kind of this voice, I've just been following what it tells me to do in teachers and things like that. I'm very black and white. When people tell me things, I take them very literally and I kind of fulfill them to a very accurate degree. And I found that that means that I'm, I feel like, like someone who's really great at taking instructions. That's what I feel like. That's me. I'm really good if you tell me to do something, doing that thing well.

But I've got to be told to do it. Like, even with content creation, I've, you know, I mean, this is normal. But still, I've sought advice from plenty of other people and just kind of done what they said. And that's how I got here. Because I'll give myself credit and say, I did what they told me well. But I only felt confident because other people told me to do what I was doing. It's very rare that I will just kind of sit down, formulate a plan by myself. And, you know, it happens.

How does it feel to do well at something that someone. tells you to do. I mean, same as it does do well in anything. I feel like doing well is fulfilling. I don't think because someone else told me to do it, it's, someone else telling me to do it gives me that layer of confidence that it's, oh, no, no, let me think about how to word that. This is the, when I used to work a job, right?

When I used to work like a nine to five, my only goal in that job essentially is to, like, do what the boss tells me to do to a level of satisfaction that they're happy with. That's it. That's all I have to do. It's a very simple role. But all of a sudden, now I'm my boss. And I find it very hard to go, Jack, what should I do? And Jack, like, because the thing is, I'm biased towards my own enjoyment. I'm biased to go, hey, like, hey, Jack, what should I do today?

Hey, Jack, go put your feet up, sit down and watch TV. Like, like, you know, where my boss wouldn't do that. They would keep me at a level of productivity that is necessary. But when I leave that 9 to 5 job, I go home, I do what I want. that was the structure that kind of as much as I didn't enjoy the job I didn't find that fulfilling I kind of like the structure of I go in I do what I'm told from nine to five and I know I've done enough for that day I go home I do what I don't want that kind of distinction worked for me because it wasn't in my control okay so Jack this is where things are going to get weird because you've just told me what your internal experience is like and so theoretically the statement that you've just made is the one that I should respect and listen to the most and yet it is the one that I'm going to do disagree with you at that. Which one was that? So you said that you're biased towards your own enjoyment so you don't know what to do. It was easy when you had someone telling you what to do because you could just set aside your own enjoyment and fulfill their expectations. If anything, I think

this is like the thing I disagree with the most strongly. Yeah. Okay. I get what you're saying. I think, but the thing is, this is where I know where you're coming from and I'm going to explain how I think it works. Sure. And that is, I am biased towards my own enjoyment. Therefore, knowing I'm biased towards my own enjoyment, I do the exact opposite where I, I kind of go, no, you're being biased. You shouldn't do that. And then, and then, do you know what I mean? Yes. I know, I was about to go there too. Yes. Yeah. No, naturally I am biased for my own enjoyment. So you overcompensate. But if we really think about it, that overcompensation is driven by the non-enjoyment side. Yeah. So I would even argue that the master control

up here is not your enjoyment. It is the fear that you are biased towards your own enjoyment that causes you to overcompensate on the other side and grind even twice as hard. Sure. So what's in control there? It's not the enjoyment.

No, no, no, no. No, it's not. It's not. Yeah, I kind of know that. I think it's just... I think... Jack, how do you feel about that? I mean, not all that shock, because I think I probably did know that.

But I think it's like, yeah, you make a good point of, because I do feel like that. It's like, well, I feel like I would unchecked by myself, which is a very weird thing to say. But if I was unchecked by myself, I would go off the reins and just do what I want to enjoy. So therefore, because I know that I'm like that, which I'm technically not because I stop myself, but because I feel like I'm like that somewhere, I do the exact opposite, which is a very, I'm glad that you're nodding your head

because that feels like a complicated system to explain. But you seem to get it. So it is the fear of letting your unchecked, degenerate jack self go completely wild that causes you to actually tighten the reins. And I think this is why you actually, like you said, it's easy when you've got someone else to please.

Because in a bizarre way, when you've got someone else to please, like if you have to please your parents, you know they're going to watch out for enjoyment jack. You know that they may come and remind you a little bit, but like at the end of the day, like it's kind of out of your hands. Whereas it's much more terrifying to like hold that balance yourself.

Yeah, I'm responsible for if I don't do enough. Where before like in schools and blah, blah, blah, blah, it's like someone else was telling me how much to do and I just have to do that amount before enjoyment me can go, right, we've done what we need to do, let's, let's do that. Now it's like, I have no idea how much I'm supposed to do. I'm just, ah, you know, it's overwhelming. Yeah, because now, like, so Jack, you said you were a good student, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got A's? Yeah, yeah. Are you getting A's now? Uh, I mean, this is the thing with what we do, right? It's really relative. So am I getting A's? I don't really know. I mean, I can't categorize it.

I mean, I've got numbers that say, these are good numbers, but there's people with better numbers. There's also people with worse numbers. It's, now it was as high as it went. Now it's like, the sky's the limit with this. And that's what was worse. How are you supposed to know when you can relax if you don't have A's? Exactly. That's a lot of what I feel like, yeah.

Right? It's terrifying. It sounds to me like an unsolvable problem because you can never get an A. in Twitch streaming. There's no official authority that says, good job, Jack. You were at the top of your class. Yeah.

The only thing that would be that is if they rank them all and I was number one, that's the only way I go, I've done enough. And I know that. Like, I know deep, as much as that's so unrealistic and it's not like,

it's not some, like, sick, like world domination drive. Here it is again. No, of course. And it's not, I'm not trying to argue that I've got like some, like, weird, like ego, like, I must be the best because I am the best.

It's not that. it's if I'm the best then I can't I don't have to work any harder because I've worked as hard as anyone else on earth no one else is doing better than me I've done enough no one can tell me I'm not doing enough I'm I'm that I'm there but while ever I'm not at the very very top then there's always in my mind someone who's doing more than me and and then I'm like well yeah I I'm I I completely so I want to just echo that I don't think it's ego at all and I don't think you're upset that someone else is doing more than you. What I think it really is, is if someone else is doing more than you, then you know that you could be doing more. Yes. Right? So even like you just,

and this comes back to retirement. Let's like, why is retirement your target? I think retirement is like cognitively or emotionally the same thing is being at the top of your class because then you've made it. Checkbox. I've done enough. It's always about have I done enough. Have I done enough? Have I done enough? Have I've I done everything that can be done? Yeah. And it feels to me like... Yeah. I'd agree.

Yeah, those two things are kind of the two fulfillment criteria. And the reason I mention retirement is because the more realistic of the two, you know? I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah, I think they're both like, so do you see how there's like a shared emotional need? I'm going to call it emotional. Let's just step away from that word, actually. There's a shared need between those two goals that allows you to relax.

It's like I'm not allowed to relax until I have achieved certain things. Okay. Yeah. So now I have to figure out how am I going to help you with this? Do you have any ideas? Ooh.

The one thing that people have always tried to tell me is kind of be satisfied in little goals. Like set little goals and be satisfied by achieving those, but it just doesn't work. Yeah, it doesn't work because what happens is because I've done it. And then what happens is, I finish one goal. I'm like, cool, on to the next one.

Like, it's just a checklist at that point. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it does is what you're, you're providing me with is steps between the final one. But ultimately, I'm still striving for the same thing. Yeah, I'm with you. Because I think that the, the issue here is you've got to let go your goal, which I think you're going to. So, I mean, I, I know, I kind of know where you need to go, Jack.

I just think it's going to be tough. So, or I have an idea. So let me ask you this, like, um, let me just think, is there some other way that we can get to this? What was it like being in school? Um, so it came easy to me for a long time. So it was actually really great because what I had happened was I could get to the top with very little work and actually have a lot of enjoyment time.

It was most of school. And then it got to like the last year or two. And then it became, oh, I've actually got to work to be at the top because it's now like difficult. I'm in, I'm in big boy school. And all of a sudden there's now less time to enjoy. enjoy myself and naturally I enjoy it less and I'm not having fun because I wouldn't let myself slip from that top position to compensate for not you know it's like what I could have done is carried on having the same level of fun and done worse in school but like hey I enjoy my my time

and I stood fine or do I did which is well I want to carry on getting the the A's that I was getting I'll work harder but I hated it I didn't enjoy it because I didn't find it to be particularly fulfilling work, it was just, the goal was fulfilling, but the actual work itself was tedious. Okay, I'm going to just toss out some words, connect some dots. You let me know if it resonates. And I think we may have a way forward here. So first of all, I think you're mentally busy and your sense of self. This is all related. And here's how I understand it. So like, you've got two warring voices, right? And in the past, those voices have been, you never had to resolve the conflict between like white and black because there was an external measure which could satisfy both sides.

Like once you're at the top of your class, you don't, like you were trying to figure out, okay, do I need to study today or do I not need to study today? And you never had to resolve the internal conflict because you relied on an external thing to tell you what to do. Yes. With me? Yeah. So as you have transitioned from school to IT to Twitch streaming, the external influences that can resolve that external conflict for you are no longer there.

As a result, you are left with the internal conflict. And you just simply haven't learned because you haven't needed to. And this is the other thing, Jack, that's kind of surprising, is a lot of people sort of never need to, right? Because they move into work structures. Yeah, without doing this, I would never have had to myself. I would have carried on doing what I was doing. You would have gone for promotion, and then you would have gone for promotion. and then you would have like, there's always a step ladder that some corporation or school

or something else could objectively rank you at. And you would have been a very successful, very driven, very content kind of person. Like in a weird way. Is that understandable? Yeah. Yeah. No, and I agree. Yeah.

So now the tricky thing is that without some kind of external grading system to let you relax, you are struggling with this idea of how do I relax when is it okay to relax and that in turn becomes even more problematic because like there's always something you can do right like as a streamer like you can always like check your socials more you can always micromanage the thumbnails for your YouTube videos

you can always be DMing people to set up potential collabs you can always upgrade your hardware and talk to someone else about a partnership or a merch launch or like there's always something you could be doing. So given an endless pile of tasks to do and given a complete absence of a grading system to tell you it's okay to relax, you don't know how to relax. And so you end up with this kind of thing where you grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, and even like in your deepest parts of yourself, you're like, this is absurd, this is enough. I deserve to relax.

and then you kind of swing that way but then like what happens is you become mentally busy as you're sitting there hanging out by the beach with your friends, y'all are chilling the first 24 hours you're like totally fine 36 hours you're like hey maybe I should

let me check Discord and get back to one or two emails like whatever you use Twitter DMs or Instic whatever I don't know and then thoughts start creeping in creeping in creeping in creeping in creeping in creeping in and then you're like oh I've relaxed too much like let me start working again.

Or even somewhere in the middle there, it's like two days in, you start to get conflicted because you're like, oh, like I was going to take a long weekend with my friends, but then you're like that, not paralysis, but almost your parents come into the room

and be like, hey, you should be studying. And you're like, no, I set aside these 72 hours for me to relax and I'm going to take care of it on Monday. But then like that voice kind of creeps in. It's like, hey, did you forget? And you're like, no, no, no, I didn't forget.

Like it's accounted for. And over time, like this, it's almost like, anxiety kind of builds up and then other things start to pile on. It's like, oh my God, like, I know I took 72 hours for a vacation, but like, I'm going to miss out on this opportunity. And then like this thing could happen. And then like I should be doing this. And like the anxieties kind of grow. And eventually I think a fear sets in that since I don't know when to relax, I have to grind and grind and grind because if I don't do it now, it could come falling apart.

And I don't know where I'm going to be. I don't know that I'll be able to retire. I'll be. be able to relax once I'm dead. It's kind of like this, like this kind of pressure of like, okay, like once I hit that point, then I can sort of relax. And what I'm,

I'm sort of hearing is that fear sets in at some point. Fear of consequences, fear of missed opportunities, fear of not doing enough. And then like also social media and stuff is kind of, adding on and kind of saying, oh, like,

did you see what that person is doing? Maybe I should be doing that too. Yeah, yeah. Right. So all those kind of thoughts set in. And at the end of the day, like you're kind of where you are, which is like very,

very successful, very grateful. I get a lot of genuine gratitude. I don't get the sense that you blame anyone. I don't get the sense that you're egotistical. But internally, I do get the sense of some amount of like, you don't really know who you are. And you don't know exactly how long this is. There's just a lot of unknowns and uncertainty.

Yeah. No. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Anything that I got wrong or anything that, you want to add or anything you think we're missing? Is that you?

No, I feel like, yeah, there's a pretty good summary. There's one thing I suppose that I might add just to, there's always this part of me as well that as I'm telling you this is like, I hope I'm not telling you who I think I am and not why, what I'm not, sorry, and not what I, like, my words, I'm just something about. Yeah. I, like, I don't want to be telling you all this because there's also a part of me that is when I'm telling you all this is like, is this who I am or is this who I think. think I am. And actually I'm, there's little parts of me that are just, just altering things.

Like, am I really conflicted or am I really just lazy? There's that little voice that's like, you know what I mean? Like, like, there's that point of me that's like, I'm telling you all this. And that's great. And if this is the case, then like, you know, I feel less lazy, because this doesn't sound like a lazy person what you're describing. And I'm like, but am I picking my words carefully to deceive you because then you won't look at me as lazy? Because that's also a thing. I would hate that. Jack, so here's the key thing. This is going to be hard.

Okay, so by the way, you're doing fantastic. We are sort of at the barrier of like some very abstract weird mental stuff that's hard to pin down. Cool. So I want you to think about your thought just now. I'm going to ask you a question that I'm 99% sure you're not going to be able to answer, but I want you to just try anyway. Where does that thought come from? Where is the origin of that? Oh, this sounds real.

but what if I'm just lazy and I'm just making, I'm tricking this guy to seem like it's okay that I'm doing this, but I'm just lazy. Like, where is that thought coming from? So I, it's, so one thing that makes me feel better is like you said earlier, when people tell me, like that you right now are almost an external factor that's telling me I'm doing enough, almost. Like right now that's what you're kind of fulfilling.

and that makes me feel better. But what I can do as a person who can... Because ultimately, you only know what I tell you. So what I can do is manipulate my words cleverly enough to make you believe I'm doing enough because then you tell me I'm doing enough and I can relax. It's like in school, right? I did this a couple of times in school

where I genuinely was. It's like, hey, did you do that homework? No, I didn't get time. I'll do it tomorrow. Really, I just forgot. But I'm making them look like I wasn't being. lazy about it and making them like I'm giving them some excuse that seems a bit more

reasonable. And it just people pass less judgment. You know, blah blah, blah. You don't, whatever. And I think I'm losing my train of thought here, so I'm going to try and get into back on here. Yeah. It's like, it's that comes from the part of me that is like

scared that what I'm doing is I'm, so when you turn around and it's like, you're not lazy, blah, blah, blah. there's a part of me that's like doubting that and going no he's not lying to you like I don't think you're lying to me but what I think is that I have manipulated what I've said in a way

to make you say that because that's what I wanted to hear and therefore I'm still actually lazy I've just made you affirm me so I feel better and that there's a fear of that happening and that's I think where I don't know that necessarily that answers the question is where is that thought come from but that explains the process very very good

so I don't know if you've noticed this check but I have not told you that I think you're doing enough. Have you noticed that? No, you've not said those words exactly. Yeah. Why don't you think I've said those? I know, I know.

I don't know. I can tell you why you have said that. What would you feel if I told you? Jack, I think you're doing a fantastic job. I think you are doing enough. What would happen? That's great. That's great.

And then there's a little part of me that goes, we're having this discussion naturally. Of course, you're going to say that. So this is what's happening, right? So if I say, Jack, I think you're, bro, you're young. Give yourself time. You'll get there. Have some faith in yourself.

How would you respond to that? Forgive my sarcastic tone. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, no, no, no. But like, I'd be like, it's nice. And it would allow me for a period to go, yeah, maybe I should. But then what would happen is. There's the butt.

The thing that, so you're affirming me that I should relax. and what will happen is, are there a stream that doesn't do great? Or, but sums are down or something. Just like something is down. And then that affirms me in the opposite direction. That goes, Dr. K was wrong. You aren't doing enough because here's a number that says so. Beautiful, right?

So here's the thing. It comes back to the war between the two, there's the content you and the grind you. And there's a way of affirming both. And that's also, yeah. And so if I say that you're going to do enough, if I say, Jack, you're so, like, you've come so far for your age, man. You're such an awesome, like you've come so far. Like, you're so much to be great before.

You deserve to relax, bro. You're 19. Have the time of your life, dude. Go out. You shouldn't be grinding. You can grind with you 29. I could say all those things and there'd be a part of you that would listen, right? Because remember, there's two parts of you.

And then that other part of you would be like, no, it's not enough. Right? This guy doesn't understand. It'll start saying these kinds of things. Right? Because he's not like, I'm not actually like a streamer. your mind will generate all kinds of ideas to devalue what I say. So I've tried really hard to not engage with that part.

And despite the fact that I've never told you, I think you're doing enough, I've never told you I think you're doing a good job. Somehow you are feeling more relaxed. You are feeling like, oh, I am actually doing a good job. This is okay. This is okay. This is the signal that I'm sending you subconsciously. And you are receiving it.

And the moment that I send you that signal, and you start to really receive it, that little thing is like, I'm tricking him. Because if your mind convinces you that you're tricking me, then it invalidates everything that I've tried to say. So I've tried to be a subtle fucker because I'm talking to you and I'm talking to that other part of you and I'm trying to trick it. And now I've tricked you, but it is not buying my BS. It detects what I'm doing and starts to doubt and starts to warn you. It's a warning. morning because oh my god jack what would happen if i made you feel like you're doing okay yeah i i i could stop doing as much and then and then all this will disappear yeah exactly right

and that's that part of you so here's the thing jack why do you believe that at the core of it what i'm getting is that there's a part of you that belies very strong i know this may be a stretch but if you are true let me this is going to be hard for me but let me try this is going to be hard for me but So if there's a part of you that tricks, so two options, right? One is you're being authentic right now and you're not actually lazy and I'm sort of like, I'm authentically reading you and I'm authentically responding to you and this is truth. You with it? Yeah.

Sure. And then there's another part of you that's like you're tricking me. And that invalidates my support of you because I'm being tricked. but if you're tricking me that means that there's a part of you that genuinely believes like you're lazy. Does that make sense? Because the only way you could trick me into believing you're not lazy

is like, does that make sense? It's like it has to come from a belief that you're lazy. Yes, it does. So where does that come from? Like, why do you believe you're lazy? Why are you afraid you're lazy? Maybe that's a better question. I'm afraid of it because I don't know I feel like I that's maybe one thing that's been instilled in me through school parents is everyone has kind of instilled in me that I shouldn't be so I think that's maybe just like kind of it's it's one of those like seven deadly stins it's like like in my brain it's like you know that should not be lazy is in my head you know what I mean yeah sure so I'm going to ask you a question Jack when did you when did the installation of the fear that you were lazy like when was the how has there

How old were you when you started being worried that you might be lazy? Ooh. Probably at the point where it began to matter. So that would be when I felt like I had to start working, which was towards the end of school. Like the point I wish I felt that like doing well required work, because what happened was I wasn't particularly used to working on things and I hated it. I was like, whoa, I'm having to work way more.

This sucks. And that made me go, God, I'm a lazy person because I hate work. And I don't think it necessarily is that. It was more that, you know, I'm enjoying myself less. Naturally, I'm not going to, of course, I'm not going to like enjoy myself less. How humans are. You know, I think. Does a story come to mind, like a particular moment or time when you realize that you're going to have to start working?

Not exactly. Just when I started six-form, which I don't, UK schooling, it's like the last sort of. How old are you? Oh, uni. I would, oh, how old did I be? 16? I'd be like 16 or 17 at that point. Probably 16. Is there anything you can share with me in terms of like concrete stuff about moments

or like just what it was like being 16 and sort of realizing you can't afford to be lazy anymore? Sixth form is one of these ones where like, I didn't realize how much I hated it until I left. And I think I genuinely have suppressed a lot of it because I don't remember it very well, which is strange for how recent it is. It's all one big blur of just not enjoying myself and hoping to get through it. And don't know, there's moments where I did enjoy myself, but like overall, just the whole experience I found stressful. But can you just tell me about that experience? What comes to mind?

I just, I remember just being unhappy with it. Like, just being like, I hate this. I can't wait to leave. And don't be wrong, I had good friends and the social elements were great when they were things I could focus on. But half of the time I couldn't. So I just felt like, wow, this, I don't enjoy this. I, this isn't great, you know. It was just a period that, but I considered leaving a lot.

I never did. I'm not even 100% convinced that I wouldn't have done, COVID kicked us out early. And I'm not convinced that I would have made it to the very, very end. I was really getting to the end of my tether by the end of it. But they kicked it out early and that. and they kind of, we didn't take exams. I don't know if you heard much about what happened in the UK with that, but they just kind of went,

hey, you know, it's not safe to get all these kids in exam rooms. We're just going to work out your grades from the work you've done over the past two years. And you're done. Have fun. Like, you've done what you can. We're just going to use everything we've got up until now. So they kicked us out early. And I was like, oh, wow, okay. Guess I'm done.

How did you feel about that? A little bit worried because obviously, I hadn't treated. So there's two parts of me. There's like a little part of you that's worried because there was no warning to that. There was no like hey, I mean they say this throughout school but you never really believe it because it's like, hey, in the scenario that on the way to an exam you get run over by a car and

break your legs or use your previous work. But like what's the chances, right? And then all of a sudden that thing actually happens was like, hey, we're actually using your stuff and you're like, well, I didn't treat this like it was going to be the thing that decides what grades I get in the end. Like that's a little bit stressful. But I also knew that these things have been graded throughout school and I was doing well. So I was like, ultimately, I should be fine. There's no reason I shouldn't get A's.

I've been getting A's pretty much throughout this. I should be fine. At which point I went, okay, guess I got to wait till August. It's March. And that was it. I was done. And I didn't go get a job.

I'm like, well, I was like, well, I had, you know, I worked through my summers. So I was like, eh, I got money. I don't need a job. I'm just going to enjoy it because. I mean, you know, when's the world going to be like this again? Yes. So you were in school and you were hating it, right? Is that right?

You were in school and you were hating it? Right towards that end part. Yeah, definitely. Which was abnormal for me. There was a chance that if COVID didn't happen, you wouldn't have finished school? So, that's the thing. Would I have probably not. I really felt like I was getting to that point.

And a friend of mine dropped and then I was like, whoa, okay. that kind of, because I constantly thought about it, constantly. But I cannot say I would have ever done it. How would you have felt about yourself if you did do it? I don't know. It depends what I went on to do afterwards, I think. I think I would have had to wait until the consequence. If it was a, if there was a extreme, or I say extremely negative consequence,

if I perceived it to be an extremely negative consequence, then I would have beat myself up about it. And if I got on fine, I suppose I wouldn't have cared. You know, it's like I dropped out of uni to do this, right? But that made sense. I was doing well in this. And like, so the consequences are good. So all of a sudden, it's like, great, you know?

Like, I made the right decision. And I never think back on that. Like, that is not something I think back on. And if a scenario like that would have happened where I found something that was amazing, then great. But if it didn't, then, yeah, I would have been pretty annoyed. So this is where I'm going to say something that may be a bit judgmental and it's more of a hypothesis than a conclusion. But I get the sense like something just clicked for me. So like I think that what's really confused me this entire time, Jack, is like where you get the idea that you're lazy.

Essentially, why don't you have faith in yourself? Because the tricky thing is why do you need like external things? to reassure you. You need external things fundamentally. If anyone out there is like listening, we need external things when we don't believe in ourselves, right? If I doubt my intelligence and I get an A, I feel reassurance from the external world. So reassurance from the external world really only, like, exists when I have insecurity. Does that make sense? So the thing that's been really confusing about this whole conversation is I've been trying to understand, like I've thought from kind of early on that there's something, you know, why are you afraid of

coasting. Why are you afraid of being lazy? You know, it sounds like you can really enjoy things and logically you understand that like you're still doing well and stuff like that. But at the root of this, I'm getting, I'm getting this sense like even when we talked about the conflict, I'm being dumb. That's like that sort of thought that you have. Like, where does that come from? Where did your mind learn that you're dumb? Because it sounds like you did well in school. Sounds like you're pretty successful. Sounds like you're pretty driven. I was really confused about there's some like there's this like nugget of something which feels incompetent to me within you, that you believe about yourself.

And so you look for these big external things, like if I'm the number one Twitch streamer, I retire, things like that, then you'll have such a blanket reassurance that that thing won't have a leg to stand on. And I've seen that thing manifest in your words, like over and over and over again. It manifests, I want you to go back and watch this

and just listen to the number of times you say, but you'll say something that's like really logical, and then you'll be like but. And even the most extreme manifestation, which like I've tried really hard to not be encouraging or reassuring to you. Because I had a feeling that the second I say, Jack, I think you're doing a great job,

that thing would have popped up. And even despite the fact that like, I didn't say it to you a single time, I've been sending you like positive reassuring vibes, it still popped up and it said, hey, hey, you're tricking him. He doesn't really know who you are. And then it's like, wait,

but what is that part of you, believe about you, right? Why does it think if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're tricking me into believing that you're a decent good, hardworking human being, the only reason your mind would think that that's a trick is if it believed the opposite. Does that make sense? So that word trick is very important because it gives us a clue to what you believe about yourself. And this also is not, it's not like all of you believes this. It's just like a doubt that's lingering. Yeah, yeah. It's there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And and I think that for me, what just clicked is like, I believe that despite all your success, despite how good you are at grinding, despite all of your parental support, despite

all of the faith that you do have in yourself, you know that you're capable, you could have dropped out of school. Yeah. And there's this part of like, and I wonder if this is sort of it, and this is something, I leave you with a hypothesis as opposed to a conclusion, because I don't really know, we'd have to have another two-hour conversation. But what I'm really hearing is like, despite everything that you have, be proud of, just think about how terrifying that is. For you to like be so smart and be so hardworking and be able to grind and still essentially wash out, like that would be such a blow to like what you're capable of in this life. Does that make sense? It's like if you can wash out a school despite all the stuff that you're good at, like, you know, if the tedium gets too much for you to handle it.

And I don't think it's about intelligence. I think it's about laziness. Because what would you tell yourself if you dropped out of school? like you're fucking lazy. You could have done it. You just couldn't cut it. And I may be like making things a little bit extreme and I'm kind of doing that on purpose

because I don't really know if this is connected for you. It may not connect. I just may be wrong here. Yeah. But this whole time like of all of the things that really surprised me, Jack, out of everything you've said, it's the idea that you could have dropped out of school.

Right? You describe yourself as a good story. student, you're a hard worker, you try really hard. You're like easy to set targets. Just like, if this person says do this, I'm going to be like the best employee I can. It's simple. There's one thing that has happened, which is run contrary to everything that you've set. And that's you could have failed out, dropped out, or been unable to do school.

And so something tells me, I wonder if like sort of that core of doubt, this sort of idea that I am lazy, this fear that you could wind up lazy. Because now what's happening is you got to. saved. Do you get that? It was like you were losing this game and then like your your opponent in the grand finals DC'd. Right. Because COVID happened. And so like you dodged a bullet, you never got tested. You didn't know. Like sure like logically you're like, oh yeah, like I may have, I probably would have been fine. But there's some part of you that I wonder if you like you got saved. Like do you feel that way? I don't know. I really, I struggled to say because I honestly I've there's plenty of times,

where I feel like quitting a lot of things and I never do it. So, you know, but that was like, I used to say that basically every week. I'm like, I'm not sure if I can do this. I really hated it. I'm not quite sure what about it. I really, really hated.

I think there's a few elements. And I think there's just a part of me that there's, I don't think I was in my mentally soundest place at that point. And that was, that was a lot of added stress anyway. So I feel like it was more of a mental sort of like, I don't know if I can deal with the stress of this sort of thing.

And so what is someone who can't deal with the mental stress of it? What would you call that person? You see, my brain's saying weak, that feels harsh. I feel like that's not necessarily. Like, I feel like, there it is again. That's harsh. You see that two sides? Yeah. Your brain comes up

with an answer and I think that's how you would have felt. Right? And I don't think you could convince me otherwise that like if you would have felt weak. Like sure, there's this. I constantly told myself that I wasn't. I would have been like, no, it's reasonable that you did. I would have done the logic thing.

But then deep down, no, I think. Exactly. Right, that's the thing. Because I think logically you're doing a good job. But I think deep down and that's where like, so I think going forward, you know, here's my advice for you, for lack of a better term. The first is to like notice the butts. So like just notice that sometimes you're conflicted.

Second thing is notice that like neither side is stupid. I think like you don't need, don't force. yourself to change yet. I just want you to like, like, digest this conversation and just, like, think about what we've talked about and notice the manifestations of these things. Is there a part of you that really feels like, you know, unless you do this, like, it is all going to come crumbling apart. Are you basically like, the grind is the grind to overcome like, and this is going to sound harsh, the fundamental weakness that exists within you? Yeah, probably. That sounds about right? I'd say, yeah, I'm very, I'm really afraid of like this falling apart because I don't know

what I'd do without it. I don't know if I could pick myself back up and just get on. I don't know what I do. Like I really don't. And that's terrifying. Deep down, Jack, what are you? I, I don't want to say it. And that's interesting. But you're, you're fishing for weak. And I'm, and I know that, but I don't want to say it. Because I'm like, no, I'm not weak. I'm offended at the first, that you'd even suggest it, but I know that's not your suggestion. Yep. But I am bringing it out because I want that reaction, right? So I know you're not going to say it because even if you felt confident in yourself,

you could say it. Do you get that? Right. Okay. That's funny. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because like, like, Jack, are you stupid?

You could say yes. Like, you have no problem saying yes, I think. Yeah, no, no, no, no. I don't feel stupid. I'd be like, yeah, I'm dumb. Yeah, exactly, exactly, right? So that's confidence. So it's okay.

Like, I don't need you to say it, but I'm just bringing it up and I'm glad. No, it was a good point. It was a good point, yeah, yeah. Right? And you're like, I'm not going to say it. Uh-uh. Good.

Right? So that's the problem. It's like, and it's like, here's the wildest thing, which I don't know if you're going to be able to accept yet. I think it's okay for you to be weak. I think it's okay for you to be not enough. I think whatsoever you are, I know it sounds kind of weird, like is enough. And I'm not just saying that because I'm not saying that because like everyone is enough.

I don't think that. I think some people genuinely do need to be doing more in life. I think in your case, I do think you're doing a fantastic job. And I think it's okay for you to have parts of weakness within you because I know this sounds kind of weird. I have faith in all of the parts of you that have overcome that part of weakness. I don't think you need to be perfect. You can be flawed.

You don't have to be 100%, and we can still bet on you. Right? I would bet on you any day of the week. I don't need you to get an A. I don't need to have an external assurance that you're going to do great. I can put faith in the part of you that works hard.

I can put faith in the part of you that like, you know, tries to make people happy. I can put faith in those parts and I don't need assurances. But I suspect that's going to be quite foreign to you. Yeah, no, yeah, I don't think I'd be able to. I'm very difficult to convince without evidence. And it's simplest terms. And it's very simplest terms. But hold on a second. I'm not trying to give you evidence. What word am I used? No, you're not. No. What do I have for you? Faith, yeah.

So what is faith? I suppose, for one of a better term, blind belief. Absolutely, right? It's about the absence of evidence. So that's my point And that's what's going to be hard for you This is just one conversation So you've got time You don't have to figure it out tomorrow

But I think essentially what you need Is like you're trying so hard to fix everything To reassure yourself Because once you have that thing in the bank account You don't need faith anymore Because you've got certainty Does that make sense? What you need to learn is how to have faith in yourself

That it's okay that you don't need to be perfect You don't have to be number one on Twitch You don't need $100 million in the bank account that you will actually be okay, like, just because of who you are. Hmm. But I recognize that's for it. So, no, but it's a very, it was very comforting to hear that. You know, that was a very comforting sort of like monologue, which I was like, yeah, you know, if I could really subscribe to that, then.

And that's not to say I ignored it either, that it did sink, but not. It obviously doesn't change overnight, does it? No, no, no. So I like that. That's actually progress. You know why that's wholesale progress? Because you said, if I could subscribe to that, instead of I should subscribe to that, but.

It's very subtle, but that's exactly where you need to be. If I could, you need to play around with these things, Jack. Explore them, like navigate them. You stop telling yourself what you should do and start exploring. I know it sounds kind of small, but for me, that's like, that's a big win. That just sounds quite big, yeah, yeah. Right? It's different from the way that you've been talking.

Yeah, like you just need to figure things out. Because so far this entire conversation, it's been, I know the right answer, but. Or this is how I feel, but. It's always been torn between black and white, right? This is the first time that I've heard you say something that like, oh, like, I wonder if I can do this. It's curiosity. It's exploration as opposed to choice. And very practically, I think just give yourself a chance to, you know, if you're feeling paralyzed, you know, start to like look in yourself and try to ask yourself.

like, okay, like, is this me, like, feeling weak? Is this me afraid of being weak? Is this me afraid of like, do I have that fear? Just notice the fear within yourself. And ask yourself, what is this fear driving me to do? And can I set aside the fear for a little while? Can I be reassuring, right? Can I be like almost an older brother to like 17 year old me who was afraid that I may

actually like quit school and be like, hey, man, like even if you have to quit, that's okay. I have faith that you'll land on your feet. Yeah. Questions? Thoughts? No, I think it's a good. I think, yeah, it's a very, I think one, you understood it well, which is always very nice. To me, I think seeing it mapped out like that's great, because it's also just a very confusing. Conflict's inherently confusing. And so to see it mapped out in a way that's like, like, makes sense is great. And then I think, yeah, no, I think it's a good idea. Just just kind of having a bit more blind face. in things generally. I think we've really focused this inwards, but me as a person,

I could probably benefit from just believing things more. I'm horribly skeptical. Don't believe things more. Explore. Yeah, okay. Sorry, yes. Yes. Right?

So, yeah, don't change who you are, Jack. You're great, bro. Okay. But, you know, I think faith sometimes has to be like, found, right? Like, because you've got to be careful because there may be a part of your mind that hijacks that and says, oh, like, Jack, you should believe more. You should have more faith. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, which is, which is, okay, that is what happened. You see what I mean? Like, it'll be sneaky. And then you'll start beating yourself up for not having enough

belief of faith. Yeah, right. Right. Like, logically, like, people who have more faith tend to do better in life, so I should have more faith. So it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way. Yeah, right? So, so anyway, I kind of torpedoed what you were saying. I'm sorry. No, no, no, but I'm glad you did because I would have left this having seen it like that. Yeah.

So you did a good job. You did a good job. So, but do you see like, and the big takeaway I want you to have, Jack, is notice that there's this thing in your mind, which is going to be like, it's like malware almost. That'll like, it'll pop up no matter like what, like, even with this discussion of faith and belief, it'll insert itself into that. Yes.

So as best as you can, what you really need to do more than anything. else is just notice its activity. Don't try to stop it. Don't try to control it. Just see like, okay, the next time I'm torn and the next time I'm busy, ask yourself, where is this coming from? When you're mentally busy, oh God, I can't afford to move. It's going to come from this place. Look at, okay, what, where, why do I feel like I'm too busy? Why do I feel like I have no time? Where is this coming from? And then there's going to be a bunch of logic. That's going to be like layers one, two, and three. And then subsurface there's going to be something else. There's going to be either a fear that like, oh my God, what if this falls apart?

Some kind of uncertainty, some kind of lack of faith. And like, even that you don't have to change. It just be like, oh, wow, there's a part of me that's really afraid. Acknowledge it. Bring it to the surface instead of fighting with the logic. And I think the more you're able to do that, the better you'll be. Right. Thank you.

Thoughts, questions. I feel like we're at a good stopping point. How do you feel? No, yeah, that feels quite conclusive. Okay. That feels like good advice. Yeah, that's great. Thank you.

I appreciate it. Do you like meditating? Do you want to learn how to meditate? That'd be great. Yeah, I find it very interesting. Okay. Have you ever meditated before? It's a little bit.

Nothing crazy. Just a little dabbling. I think it's something I was like, yeah, I could benefit from that. So I played around with it a little bit, yeah. Okay. So I'm going to, let me just think for a second. Okay, I'm going to give you a choice. Do you want to...

So there's a part... I'm going to hypothesize for a moment. There's a part of your psyche that is afraid that you're weak. Okay? I'm just going to assume that, okay? It may not be true. If I were to give you a choice,

if you wanted to understand that part or digest that part and make it go away, like basically fix it or understand it, Which one would you pick? Ooh. Oh, that's difficult. Because, like, in my head, if I understood it, maybe I could defeat it. But then that would, that's what I thought.

I'm like, oh, understanding it would be great. But then it's so I could fix it. So ultimately, would I prefer to fix it or understand it? Neither one is better from my perspective. No, it's just what instinctively appeals to you. No, I think I'd like to understand it. Okay. So we're going to do a technique that we do from time to time.

it's going to be called, I call it charging the laser beam. Okay. It's going to be kind of weird. So what I'm going to ask you to do is sit up straight and then I'm going to kind of demonstrate. We're going to take our, I don't want, I don't know if I realized how unstraight I was sat. My God. If you're, if you're, how tall are you? Uh, like five nine. Okay. Are you, is your back straight when you sit in that chair? Yeah. Like straight, straight?

Hold on. Maybe it's not actually. Now you've acknowledged it. Hold on. Okay, I'm now not leading against the chair. I'm just sat straight. Okay. And are you comfortable like this? Yeah. Okay. So this technique is going to have two parts. Do you want theory or you want to just jump into the practice? No, no, I love theory. That would be great. Okay. So kind of taking a step back, there are these seven things called chakras or chakras.

And each one is supposed to govern a particular, kind of like part of our being. So for example, there's a chakra that governs desire. There's a chakra that governs digestion. So there's some, actually there's very little evidence to support any of this chakra theory. There, there is some evidence that their heart chakra meditations are specifically useful for treating depression and compassion. But the studies are very, very small. We haven't really looked at the other chakras.

So people think I'm a good psychiatrist, which in a sense I am. But I think a lot of the reason that I'm able to do what I do is because I do a particular set of third eye practices, which govern my ability to understand and like give me intuition. It's sort of like leveling up my intuition skill. Yeah. As a scientist, I wonder if what the yogis kind of figured out is that there are different parts of the brain that somehow get like activated or strengthened by doing particular meditation practice. practices. And maybe it's not like some sort of mystical like third eye site, but just like doing these kinds of practices somehow enhance our ability to like pay attention or something like that. Like I don't know. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me. So I'm going to teach you a

third eye practice that is theoretically designed to give you a sense of intuition or understanding. Right. Okay. What I can be pretty sure about is that numerous studies of meditation suggests that what you do is not actually that important, but there's a set of scientific, highly provable benefits, which you will get from this practice. This includes improvements in focus, attention, memory, reductions in stress, and cortisol. So like those kinds of things you're going to get no matter what I teach you. Okay? So at the least you'll get that stuff. Hopefully it'll help you with things like decision making. And on the top end, if we're really lucky and all that weird mystical stuff turns out to be true, then, or even some of it turns to be true, then maybe

you'll get some kind of weird, like, insight into yourself. Yes, that'd be excellent. Okay. So this practice is going to have two phases. One, I'm going to take my middle finger, and I'm going to hover it above the space between my eyebrows. So I don't want to touch, okay? And I'm going to do this with my eyes closed. Yeah, I'll walk you through it. So I'm just going to demonstrate, okay? And then what I'm going to really pay attention to, is the sensation in my forehead over where my middle finger is hovering. Okay? So it's going to sound kind of weird, but you'll maybe feel something.

So you just want to focus on your forehead where the finger is pointing. That's going to be phase one of the practice. We're going to do that with our eyes closed. Okay. If you happen to get some kind of sensation there, then we've got two additional steps to the practice. One is to then relax the hand and just focus on the sensation on your forehead. the second is when you breathe in, imagine you're going to feel the breath in your nostrils, but imagine that that breath is going up and into that point.

And as you breathe out, imagine that it's coming out of that point too. So we're going to go, okay, kind of thing, okay? So I'm going to sort of walk you through it. I may ask you one or two questions just to kind of see where you are. There isn't a right way or a wrong way to do the practice. People have different experiences, okay? So sit up straight. Close your eyes.

And start by just noticing your breathing. So go ahead and breathe. Let's say take, so you're on breath number two. Good. Give me one more. Beautiful. Nice slow exhalation. And now go ahead and take, you can continue breathing.

Take your right hand middle finger. Go ahead and place it. kind of, yeah, like don't touch your forehead, but try to bring it really, really close. And what I want you to do is like, notice the sensation of your finger. Do you feel anything on your forehead? Just like pressure, I guess, is it almost, if that makes any sense.

Like, almost as if it's being touched, but not quite. It's like it's conscious of the fact that there's something there. Yeah, so I want you to just focus on that. You can try to bring your finger a little bit closer. Oh yeah, I've moved it quite a lot, actually. Yep, there you go. So now focus on that. You feel that pressure?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Now you can go out and relax for a little bit. You can let your hand come down. And just focus on the sensation. Do you still feel the pressure? Mm-hmm. Okay.

So we're going to focus on that for about 15 seconds. And now I want you to bring your finger back. We're going to do this a second and a third time, where you kind of bring it over and sort of feel that pressure let the finger kind of strengthen the pressure, if you will. And now let your hand come down. Focus on the sensation in your forehead. We're going to go for another 15 seconds or so.

And now for the third round, we're going to hold it there for about a minute now. So really try to point your finger towards your forehead. For lack of better term, feel the energy in that spot. Now bring your hand down. So now I want you to breathe into it. So feel that point on your forehead. And as you breathe in, you'll feel the inhalation, the cool air, enter your nostrils, go up into your forehead.

And then as you exhale, feel the warmth come out. And go ahead and do about five breaths. And now what I'm going to do is just give you a choice. So if you felt the sensation and kind of enjoyed that, you can drive your attention into the spot on your forehead. It's almost like imagine that your mind is behind your forehead and that you can focus and concentrate your mind into that spot. And if you prefer the breath, you can breathe into it.

Whichever one just feels better for you. We'll practice for a period of about three minutes. If you get bored of one, you can do the other. And now go ahead and take a deep breath in and out. let yourself start to return to the world. You're sitting in your chair, in your new place, your Jack, you're 19 years old. Notice the facets of your reality start to come back,

who you are, where you are, you may be hungry, you may be thirsty, you may have errands to run. And notice that for a time you stepped outside of your life and just existed. You are neither a success nor failure. You are neither an A student or an F student. You may have even lost track of your name, your gender, your job, that these are all parts of life.

But there's almost a timeout space that you stepped into. And now put your palms together in front of you, kind of like in namaste position if you know what that is. So touch your palms together. And then rub them together. Rub, rub, rub, rub, rub, rub. So you feel heat, tension, energy, and then cup them over your eyes. Cup your palms over your eyes.

Take a deep breath in and slowly exhale and open your eyes while covered by your hands. And then when you're ready, put your hands down. Hi. Hi. How do you feel? Good. That was good. That was, yeah.

No, it's very like, yeah. I don't know what that means, but I think that that's doing it right. No, it was good. It was good. Yeah, yeah. I think the whole point of it feels like I shouldn't really come out with many thoughts about it. I feel like it was just like, yeah, that was great. No, that's what I think you did really well. Like you're like, it was the whole thing. Yeah, that means you're doing it right. So I think that's the tricky thing about meditation is the more you describe it, the more it actually confuses people. Because if you say, oh, it was like so peaceful, like, oh, my God, I saw. So someone in our chat said that this felt like charging a laser beam. I think that made a lot of sense to me. but sure okay yeah no I get that yeah now you said it yeah I feel that yeah right it's but it's like if I told you like hey this is a charging the laser beam practice

people are like what yeah now I've done it I get what you mean but beforehand yeah so overall um you know if if it worked for you it worked for you and I would say that you can do this practice for like 15 minutes a day ideally three days a week I mean yeah three days a week week. If you bump it up to about five days a week, you'll get a little bit more benefit. But I think you can do like, you know, whatever variation felt right, you can start off with some deep breathing. You can use the finger to charge the laser beam. But if you feel

that sensation, that's really what you're focusing on. And so the finger can be used to trigger the sensation or make you aware of the sensation. But once you felt enough or your Agna Chakra starts to activate and energy starts to flow through it, you may no longer need the finger. Right. And then your third eye chakra. And then in terms of you can decide, like if you want to just focus on it and you can hold your attention on it long enough, that's totally fine. If your mind starts to wander, you can go to the breath and kind of imagine like a V going

up into your forehead and exhaling. You can do a combination of both. You can do like, you know, basic breathing for five minutes, centering yourself, finger, five minutes of breath and then five minutes of just concentrating on that spot and driving your energy into it and then kind of wrap up cool cool oh by the way you know i didn't ask you to tell us like who you are and where they can find you i assumed everyone already knew because you're so big but why don't you go ahead and tell us anyway uh i i i am jack manifold tv on on everything pretty much I don't think there's anything I'm not.

So if you want to look me up pretty much anywhere, I'm on most things. And what can people expect if they come and check you out? Oh, God. Lots of things. I tend to just do what I enjoy. YouTube, I go out and do things. Twitch, I sit here and do things. That's basically it, to be honest.

Okay, so check out Jack for, you know, someone who sits and does things or goes out to things. I do things. I try and be funny while I do things. The things vary, but the kind of key is that I'm here, and I'm trying to be funny, at least. Okay. Awesome, man. Thank you so much for coming and good luck to you. Thank you. And take care, man. You too. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

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