HealthyGamerGG - Is Progress in Gaming Destroying Your Real Life?

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

Dr. K talks about why you can grind in game, but not in real life, and how to get past this to succeed IRL! Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/healthygamergg/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

so that you can play this stupid game hour after hour after hour after hour and you never get bored. And here's the thing that, here's where the colored helmet comes in. Because what are the game developers worried about? Once you're in the game loop, they've got you. Once you queue up for a game of Dota, you're stuck in a game of Dota. If you disconnect, you're going to get reported, right? So they've got you in the game loop. So when do the developers lose you between game loops?

So here's the crux of it. I have to spend hours grinding away at a game for little to no reward, but the minute I have to do actual work, everything starts to suck. So working for 30 minutes feels bad, man, and grinding in a game for eight hours for slightly cooler helmets. So how on earth does this work? Right? Why is it that like, so we recognize that when we recognize that we recognize that we recognize that when we grind for something in a game, it doesn't actually have like real value, right?

Like, we know that. It's like, hey, this helmet is different. Or I get this kind of trophy. And this helmet is a virtual item in a virtual world. And let's assume for a moment we're not even getting bogged down in like real world economies and auctioning it off for real money or any of that stuff. Let's just assume that that's not even a part of. And yet, like, when I grind for 30 minutes in real world,

life, that actually has a real benefit. And so you would think that obviously since one thing means more, like in the real world, since one thing has real benefit and something has no benefit, why is it that I can game for eight hours, but I can't grind for 30 minutes in real life? So there are a couple of different things to understand here, okay? The first is going to be like something about game development. So we're going to actually talk about video games for a second and like how they're developed and what developers do. Second thing we're going to talk about is a little bit about like neuroscience and how that kind of works.

And then hopefully we'll come to some kind of conclusion about what to do about this. So I went to the game developers conference in San Francisco a few months ago. And it was a fantastic conference. I really enjoyed being there. I talked to a bunch of game developers, offered my own thoughts about sort of I was invited to speak. about creating positivity and stuff. But I sort of figured out, like, a couple of things that I had never really understood before.

So I got one interesting question. So someone asked me, how do we... So just to give you all some context. So I was there speaking about the psychology of positive gaming. So how can you create a community that's, like, positive in some way? And so someone asked me a question. Actually, let me give you all more context. Sorry.

So my general answer was that most of the attempts to create positivity within gaming seem to be tacked on. Okay. And so what do I mean by that? That means that if you look at the way that a game is designed, they design the game, right? So they like make the game. And they're like, by the way, we need a positive community. So let's like implement some features. So they add like a reporting system or they add like a cheering system or they add some system on.

at the end. Because someone up there with an MBA is like, hey, everyone's into positivity and gaming right now. Like, developers, make some positivity feature. Like, let's make the game positive. And that's when, like, you as a developer, you go to the person, like, you know, you go to the person who's telling you to build this feature. And you're kind of like, well, like, we can build something. But the truth is, you know, we probably need to think about this bigger. And like, we may need to rewrite some code. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, rewriting code. That's too expensive. Forget about doing this from the ground up. This is the sixth iteration of the game that we're making. All the code is already built. Just tack something on.

Just tack it on. We got to implement some positivity. Let's do it. And so the positivity in the game is like not a core feature of the game, right? It's like something that gets tacked on. So like I think actually Dota does a good job of this, but let's just use Dota as an example. So you like play the game of Dota, and then afterward you can commend someone or report someone. But it's not part of what they call the game loop. Okay? And this is really important to understand. So, someone asked me the question when I was at the conference. How do we incorporate positivity into our core game loop? And then there I am asking, I was like, okay, that's interesting. I have no idea what words you just used. Can you explain to me what the core game loop is? And so this is

where, like, this is the crux of, like, video game development. So, especially if you guys look at mobile games, you'll understand this very well. What is the basic activity that you do for minute to minute or, like, for a set of minutes within a particular game? That's the core game loop. And what's essentially done is, like, that process is optimized. Okay? They optimize that process so that you have the most engagement and you will continue to engage in that loop over and over and over and over again. Here's the key thing.

The reward in the video game is not part of the core game loop. Do you all get that? This is what's so damn confusing because you're like, I don't understand why I'm playing for eight hours for this colored helmet. You're not playing for eight hours for the colored helmet. The colored helmet is not actually part of the game. It just happens at the end. The reason for the colored helmet is to get you to queue up into the core game loop again.

So all really the helmet does is it causes you to like enter the path. And most of your time is spent in the path. So this is the way to kind of think about it. How much time do you spend queuing up versus playing the game? And when you're actually playing the game, you're not thinking about the helmet. When do you actually think about the helmet? You think about the helmet when you finish a game and the game shows you your progress bar. You have two out of five stars.

And once you get all five stars, once you get five wins for the day, you get the color helmet. We have two stars. So when does the helmet enter your psychology? It enters when you click play. But you're not playing for eight hours for the helmet. The only time you're playing for the helmet is when you click the play button. And then you enter the core game loop and you lose an hour. Because that core game loop is designed with so much sophistication that you're going to lose a whole hour.

hands down. Right? There's going to be the, like, whatever it is. And you'll see this a lot in mobile games where, like, if you think about the level design for all these, like, you know, different games where you bust stuff, right? Like, you're, like, popping things and popping, I don't even know what to call. Like, all these games where you, like, slide your finger across stuff and you, like, break crap. Yeah, like, Fruit Ninja or whatever, right? Like, whatever.

Like, if you think about that, like, what's the core game loop there? Like, once you enter, it's kind of. of like you board a train, and the only time to disembark is it like at the station. You're stuck. You don't stop in the middle. And these core game loops are designed with a lot of sophistication. So people figure out, like, what's the right amount of squishiness to add? What's the right amount of color? What's the right amount of like feedback? When you act within the game, you'll see a burst of color, you'll hear a satisfying sound, you'll even have vibration, which I personally find hell annoying in controllers, you'll get all this feedback that keeps you ensconced within this

game loop. And so the reason that you spend eight hours is not for the colored helmet. It's because of the sophistication of the game loop. And what do I mean by sophisticated? Over the last 30 years, developers have figured out which game loop keeps you the most engaged. They figured out what level of color saturation do you need? How much sound, how much music, what kind of music do you need? How often do we need to update the terrain so your brain does not get bored of seeing the same old thing over and over and over again? How often do we need to release patches so that people get interested in the game and they'll engage in the core game loop again? Right. So even things like balance patches, people want to mix it up, right? Why do they want to mix it up? They want to mix it up so that it stays fresh. And if it stays fresh, you're going to enter their game loop over and over and over again.

So even if you look at these like, you know, these mobile games where you're kind of like doing, you know, know, one level and then the next level, and the next level, and the next level. They're like 600 levels. But every 42 levels, there's a new mechanic. Right? There's like something else. You have to pop it twice. You have to slash it twice.

It explodes. And then they give you different, like, bomb things that you can pop and this thing that you can pop. They make like modifications, modifications, modifications so that you can play this stupid game hour after hour after hour and you never get bored. And here's the thing that, here's where the, colored helmet comes in. Because what are the game developers worried about?

Once you're in the game loop, they've got you. Once you queue up for a game of Dota, you're stuck in a game of Dota. If you disconnect, you're going to get reported, right? So they've got you in the game loop. So when do the developers lose you between game loops? Right? So when I am done with this round and I'm bored of playing the game, what I'm going to do is switch to

another game. And then someone realized, oh my God, people will play two rounds of our game and they'll get really, really frustrated with it. But if we make them play five games and we give them a colored helmet, they won't switch between game loops. That's where the colored helmet comes in. Okay? Now, the next thing to think about is like this question, remember, if we go back to the

original question, does that make sense, people? So, working for 30 minutes. Now, here's the problem. So what I want you all to think about is what is the equivalent of the core game loop for this? So if I sit down to study for my algebra test or my pre-calculus test, what is a five-minute experience of that like? Torture. Pure torture. In fact, it is the very opposite of the game loop because the second I start studying, all I want to

to do is enter the core game loop that is going to be like makes me lose an hour. Do you all get that? So it's sort of like it's not a false equivalency, but the focus, what keeps the difference between these experiences, sorry, I got to find my words. The difference between these experiences has nothing to do with the reward at the end. Because we've already established that the reward at the end should lead to the opposite behavior. I should be studying a lot more and playing a lot less. Because the helmet doesn't matter, whereas an A actually matters. So what explains the behavior? It's not the reward. It's actually the core experience of the activity. So studying calculus for five minutes is friggin' boring. And even though an A is worth more to me on a test than,

you know, some colored helmet in a game that I'm not even going to play for six months from now, like, I can't grind in real life. And that's because the activity, the actual activity, the actual gameplay of real life is not rewarding at all. There's no squishiness. There's no sounds. Like, whenever you get an algebra problem right, whenever you solve a calculus problem right, there's no,

there's no reward. There's not like a, like a, you know, a flop. Ding, ding, and a star. There's nothing. Nothing on the, dude, my textbook doesn't even change color. Like, what the hell? The page doesn't even turn.

itself, right? Like, I don't even get any stars when I get an algebra problem right. Like, what is this boomer stuff? I got to turn the page myself. I have to pick which problem. You go to your, you go to the back where you've got your like, you know, 16 problems. There's like 16. It's like a pile of random problems. That's not how it works in a game. In a game, they give you one, and it's flicking. Click it. Let's go. Next level. And then you see, boop. Beez. Ming, ming, ming. And what? I'm just supposed to, like, look at this algebra textbook and just do one frigging

boring problem after another boring problem. And the second I get it right, whether I get it right or I get it wrong, there's no differential and reward. I don't even know if I got it right or wrong. Like, why am I even doing this frigging algebra problem? Like, I don't even know if it's right or wrong. What are you telling me? You're telling me that I have to flip to the back of the book and look up the answer.

And what the hell is this crap? Only half, only the odd number questions have answers. Half the answers are even missing. Where's the DLC? Where do I pay the extra money for that? You all get this? So the grind in real life is not optimized to be fun. Now here's where the neuroscience comes in. And it's short. I mean, it's complicated. We could talk for years about it if you wanted to. But here's the thing. There are parts of your brain that can't tell the difference. Okay? So we have like the cortical centers of our brain. Our cerebral cortex is what makes us human. It gives us, you know, the sense of identity and it gives us actually even partially, even that. It doesn't even give us that. That's parts of our primitive brain. It gives us higher order thinking and higher order functions and all this kind of stuff.

And then we've got our primitive parts of the brain that are like, ooh, shiny. Ooh, color. Like, you know that when you, like, if you see a piece of jewelry and it looks like vivid and colorful, you're like, wow. Like, we as human beings universally revere certain kinds of objects, like stuff that's shiny. We're like friggin magpies. So if you have a sparkly something, like your eyes are going to look at it. Right? This is like primitive crap.

We like particular things. We like things that are colorful and a little bit squishy. Right? So if you play games like, you know, all this like chibi stuff and jelly splash and like there's like a certain. You know, that we just like. Right? Like, we think babies are cuddly. We think, like, babies from all species of animals, like, cute baby deer, cute baby kitty, cute baby puppy.

We're attracted. Like, it's like a primitive thing. And now what the video game does is, like, it activates all that crap. It takes advantage of all that crap. If you look at the font in your algebra textbook, it's not like a chibi font. It's like, you know, Times New Role. Roman, which is like we're not into that. And so the tricky thing is that, you know, the higher order functions of our brain that tell us, oh, yeah, an A is worth more to you than a colored helmet.

That's true. But on the deeper order functions of the brain, like the stuff that regulates like hunger and thirst and like that kind of stuff, like a basic sense of like enjoyment and attraction to color and like, you know, the parts of our brain that's more like a bot. those things can't tell the difference between the two. So the higher order value that we apply, the abstract value that we applied to a grade versus a colored helmet, that may be able to tell the difference, but the deeper parts of our brain can't tell the difference. So success in a video game activates, this is not a real circuit.

It's just something, it's like an emergent phenomenon. So, you know, many years ago I gave this lecture on this thing called the triumph circuit, which goes to their science there. but it's basically this idea that we have this human, some psychologists came up with this concept called intent to mastery. And what they were looking at, they made a really interesting observation, which is that kids drop things all the time,

but they never get fed up of dropping things. So if you take a six-month-old that literally cannot hold stuff, right? They'll like try to pick it up and they just keep dropping it. And an adult will get frustrated after trying something over and over and over again and like not succeeding. We'll give up. But kids who can't do stuff like walk. Like the kid can't walk.

But they keep trying, keep trying. They'll fall 50 times, 60 times. And mind you, they're falling. A hundred times and they'll keep trying until they get it right. What on earth is going on? And what they discovered is this is part of our brain or psychology that they call intent to mastery. That all human beings have an intrinsic drive to master something that's difficult. Now, what happens, this is why kids learn how to walk, okay, in short.

What happens with video games is they tap into this primal sense of intent to mastery, more so than the abstract goals that we have in real life. So our algebra textbook does not tap into intent to mastery the way that video games do. And this is what I kind of call the triumph circuit. We basically got this part of our brain that values triumph. So what we value in human society is adversity followed by victory. The person that we celebrate the most is the one who struggled and then was successful. Not the person who was handed everything on a silver platter and then they like, you know,

I'm a billionaire today. And my path to success was I started a business. I inherited $2 billion for my parents and I started a business. And today I'm worth $1 billion. Go me. That's not what we celebrate. Right? What we celebrate is the person who rises through adversity.

And so then we look at even games like From Software, I think is the best example of this. Or cuphead or whatever. And the games that we enjoy playing are the ones that are challenging. This is why video game developers have figured this out. That like, why do we even have matchmaking? Like, why do we pair people up? It's because challenge followed by triumph is what we enjoy the most. But where's the challenge in triumph in my algebra textbook compared to something like playing a game of Dota?

So this is what happens. This is why, like, this, you know, why is this so accurate? Because game developers have figured out. I don't even know that they did research, but I think this happens organically. It happens kind of like evolution, where someone creates a game and then they add a feature, and then that game gets really, really big. And then a bunch of games add that feature because they're like, oh, people like this feature. So a good example of this is also like if you look at, you know, games are souls like now, right?

What does that mean? That means that when you die, you drop your XP there, which is a terrible feature. I don't know if you guys remember, but I remember when I first started playing Dark Souls, I was so infuriated by this feature. What do you mean I lose my XP? This is BS. F this. And now half the games you make do it. This is what happens.

They figure out that XP feels so much more to you in your primitive friggin' brain. That which we can lose and we don't take for granted means more to us. And that's like a feature of like human psychology. Right? We value that which we can lose. And Miyazaki figured that out. And now you see a little. a bunch of people doing the same damn thing.

Do you all get that? So why does it feel so real? Because it is. Because games have, game developers are figuring out, and I don't think this is nefarious. I don't think it's necessarily malicious. There are people out there who are malicious.

But I think this is just someone like, you know, I don't think Miyazaki is out there trying to take advantage of our neuropsychology. I think he's out there trying to create a truly like intensive and triumphant gaming experience, which I think he does. that's what they're going by, right? So most game developers, at least the ones I've worked with, will try to make the game that they themselves wanted to play. They're like, I would love to play a game that dot, dot, dot.

But if you even think about it, where does that love for a video game come from? It comes from, I've played this game that scratches these five neuroscientific itches, but is missing this itch and this itch. So I'm going to make a game that includes these five things and tax on this. And tax on a community element. And tax on some kind of progression. And tax on this. And so over time, this is what's happening.

Games are getting more and more engaging. Three years ago, just to summarize, three years ago, I went to the American Psychiatric Association. I said, hey, I think video game addiction is a huge. huge problem. I think we should take this stuff more seriously. The response that I got was nice. They said, it sounds like you're really on to something, but we don't have the bandwidth because we have an opiate crisis here in this country, and that's where all of our energy is. That year, I submitted an abstract to present at the national conference, and the abstract was

declined because they had more important things to worry about. So this year, we presented something at the APA conference, but more interesting, there were four sessions that I could see that were related to video game addiction this year. So this problem is getting worse. About 10 or 12 years ago, about 6% of people worldwide were addicted to video games. 6% of people 10 years ago. Now the number is closer to 11%. So this is getting worse. And like, that's because the games are getting very. better, right? And the better the games get, the more true this becomes. So be careful. So Coffin Rock 15 is saying BS games are crap now. Yes, they are. You are correct. So this funny thing is that

I actually agree with that. And more people are playing them. And why is that? Why are games getting worse and more people playing them? Total amount of time played is increasing. Why is that? It's because people are figuring out how to scratch your itch, your neuroscientific itch. And it's not about creating a brilliant game anymore. It's not about creating a game that is based on making it as fun as possible. It's about creating games that are geared towards engagement, towards playtime, right? So you're right that games are in some ways getting worse and they're getting more addictive. And half money is saying it's exhausting. You're damn right. But boy, do you got to keep playing.

Sleepable with the 108 is saying 7,000 hours and Dota still need more. Yep. Frustrating but rewarding, just like life is supposed to be, 7, 8, 9. Frustrating but rewarding, right? Because that's what our brain loves.